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Civil discourse

August 1, 2011 by  

Civil discourse

Rational debate is a dying art. It occurs only rarely in Washington, where the primary goal is to score points for a political party with an eye toward re-election. Concerns about America and Americans are secondary to the political elite. Party politics trumps all.

The debt ceiling dueling press conferences have been illustrative of this. We can’t know what goes on behind closed doors — whether the sides actually negotiate in good faith. But we do know what they say in public. It’s all blame passing, name-calling, explosive rhetoric and scaremongering.

Rational debate is found even less often in social communities like the one that exists on Personal Liberty Digest™. Hiding behind anonymity, commenters can say anything they like without concern for repercussion. Absent the fear of a punch in the nose, they often say vile and offensive things about others who have a dissenting view or opinion.

It’s childish and disappointing and doesn’t even belong in the schoolyard, much less as something that passes for debate in a civilized society. Yet it’s the reality in which we find ourselves.

All the contributing writers at Personal Liberty take great pride in their work. They research, they study, they think, they reach a conclusion and they write. They combine fact with opinion to state their conclusion. Then, they put that conclusion out for all to see.

I can speak for each of them when I say we await with great anticipation seeing our work published and then reading the comments that follow. It is very gratifying to know that tens of thousands of people are reading the words you created and that hundreds more care enough to comment on them. Getting an attaboy from readers who agree or like what we’ve written is a wonderful ego stroke.

But even better are reasoned rebuttals to our columns. Cogent disputations cause us to think. Often, they open us up to facts we had not considered before. They require us to be able to defend our position against challenge, which reinforces our convictions or causes us to reconsider.

Ad hominems, expletives, name-calling and non sequiturs do not make for cogent disputations. In fact, using them demonstrates a shallow mind attempting to swim in a deep pool. It is a sign of juvenile ignorance, or of something more nefarious — trolls paid to disrupt and derail debate.

For instance, in last Monday’s column, The Imperial President, I argued that Abraham Lincoln set us on the path to the imperial Presidency we now suffer under.

This was only a portion of the foundation upon which I built my premise. But this challenge to traditional orthodoxy was apparently too much for some of our readers. One longtime commenter, who used the handle “Vigilant,” said he was unsubscribing. That’s a pity. Everyone should be willing (and able) to read opinion and fact that takes them out of their comfort zone. But rather than form a rebuttal, he chose to run away.

And then there are the responses like this one from “George”:

Bob, I realize that at heart you’re a Johnny Reb, but I cannot tolerate your attempt to rewrite history. Had it not been for firing on Ft. Sumpter, I’m fairly certain the Civil War would not have occurred. Once they fired on what was clearly Federal property (it’s removal could very possibly have been negotiated), there was no longer any possibility of a peaceful solution. BTW: I had relatives from near where I grew up in Indiana who fought in the Civil War — care to guess which side (not a trick question, the answer is obvious).

He calls me a “Johnny Reb.” What does this mean? Is he suggesting that, because the offices of Personal Liberty are located in Alabama, the facts presented aren’t valid? Would the facts change if our offices were in New York… or Canada? Is he suggesting that if I were from Indiana, Ohio, Illinois or Washington, I wouldn’t recognize tyranny when I saw it?

His “argument” is in no way a rebuttal to the points I made, nor is it historically accurate. In fact, it avoided my points altogether and seemed to be an attempt to justify Lincoln’s illegal acts.

I responded to this and suggested some books he could read to expand his knowledge. His reply was again non-responsive, and he finished by praising Lincoln. I attempted one more time to reason with him, and his was response was even more nonsensical. He said:

In your dreams, my friend. Did you ever hear of Jack Benny? Then there was the little matter of Shay’s Rebellion. That was resolved without much difficulty, but it did require the use of force.

Meaningless drivel. Jack Benny and Shay’s Rebellion? Irrelevant. But that is what passes as discussion today.

By the way, George also referred to Geopolitical Editor Chip Wood as a “Johnny Reb,” so he apparently doesn’t have much of a vocabulary to work with.

And then there are comments like this, from someone calling himself “woodpecker”:

Your GOP policies mainly got us right here and now … are you happy with that? Progressive policies created the largest middle class in world until you clown right-wingers brought them down and thus the country down. You dupes destroyed your own interests and still don’t know it.

Again, non-responsive. Poor woodpecker has fallen victim to the false left-right paradigm the elites use to keep Americans divided and at each other’s throats. Such beliefs do nothing to advance the cause of liberty, and responses such as this — which come all too often — do nothing to stimulate debate.

Anyone who has spent much time reading the columns here must understand we do not subscribe to conventional wisdom. We are not a part of the left-right paradigm which, along with class warfare, is a ploy of the elites to keep Americans focused on tangential issues rather than their loss of liberty.

And then there are responses like this one from a person who calls himself “SMSgt Z retired Nam 68” to Chip in his column The Left Baits A Trap For Us:

Chip you forgot to take your med’s again or your not getting enough oxygen because your head is so far up your _____ I’ll let you mouth breathers fill-in blank But here is a clue the word rimes with bass.

What kind of response is that? I’d be willing to bet SMSgt Z doesn’t make remarks of this nature to people standing next to him. If he does, then he surely has few friends but many enemies.

But insults are apparently all SMSgt Z has. Here is another of his comments, this one directed at fellow commenter on Robert Ringer’s most recent column:

To find a mindless idiot all you have to do is look in the mirror. Mouth breather You need to get your med’s adjusted.

Replies like this are no better intellectually than, “It’s Bush’s fault,” “you’re a Reich-winger” and “moron,” which appear every day on almost every subject, and they’re offensive, to boot.

A better rebuttal would be one like this, posted to Chip’s column by someone calling himself “Ernest Long”:

I strongly disagree. Enacting a Constitutional Balanced Budget Amendment with the requirement that any new taxes, unfunded mandates or tax code changes that effectively increase taxes would require a super majority in both houses to pass. Any act, etc. to decrease taxes would still only require a simple majority. Also, a Balanced Budget Amendment would put all Congressmen and women on record supporting or opposing the amendment. Tea Party supporters like me want them on record!!

Or this one by “Hiram”:

Without being forced to balance the budget, deficit spending will continue, ultimately ending in the demise of the dollar and the USA. All local governments and families are forced to balance their budgets or go bankrupt. They can only live on credit for so long, then they are done. There needs to be a mechanism to force the feds to live within our means. The founding fathers did not include this amendment because they were all reasonable men then. Todays liberals are not reasonable by any means. Sure it takes time, but we have to start somewhere to show that we are committed to cleaning up this mess.

Ernest Long and Hiram demonstrate they have taken a few moments to consider the evidence presented to them, organized their thoughts and prepared a rational response. Whether you agree or disagree with what they say, you have to admit they are engaged and considerate.

The use of vile and offensive language or twisting the meaning of words to inflame others is unacceptable in polite society and should be considered unacceptable in online social communities as well. An example of this comes from a poster calling himself “i41.” His posts were mostly insulting on the best days, but were downright offensive on the worst.

Thinking he was clever, i41 began using the word niggardly to describe President Barack Obama. It was an obvious attempt to inflame racial prejudices. I say it was obvious because when I corrected him and pointed out the definition of niggardly and how that could not possible refer to the Spender-in-Chief, he began using the word even more often.

I41’s efforts resulted in him receiving a permanent ban from commenting.

Unlike many sites, we don’t delete comments that rebut an author’s premise. We encourage disagreement. We enjoy the debate. We want an educated populace, and education comes only through the free expression of ideas.

An American public that understands the (true) history of our Nation and the ideas of the Founding Fathers is our only defense against the ever-increasing tyranny we face. People must understand the liberties our Founders gained and where those come from before they can recognize what liberties we have already lost.

So join the discussion. Disagree if you feel the need, but please don’t be disagreeable. Let’s engage in civil discourse.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American who has been writing a newsletter since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Karolyn

    Thank you, Bob. I am glad you included a right-winger in your examples. It would really be nice if people did not have to resort to name-calling and denigration to get their points across. As you said, I’m sure many of the posters would probably never dare to speak to someone in person the way they post responses here because of the anonymity. It is very distressing to see the amount of animosity that is common among some posters. Of course, it is possible that this is their only outlet for their anger.

    • SFDennis

      Karolyn, people who do resort to name-calling and denigration CANNOT get their points across, which I believe is pretty much the point. They are unable to engage in intellectual debate and probably, in many cases, unable to understand either the article they read or the premise being espoused by the person they are responding to. So they resort to infantile behavior. Frenkly, in most cases it is best to simply ignore them, as any attempt to egage them in any form of intellectual discourse usually proves futile, since it is usually beyond their meager abilities to understand.

      • Karolyn

        The problem is I think it’s just natural for people to want to defend themselves and rail against hatred ignorance. My philosophy is usually “You have the right to be wrong.” and let it go without arguing. However, sometimes people are just over the top; and it’s hard not to respond no matter how futile it is.

        • crisscross

          I agree, Karolyn, but part of the problem is how quick some are to level invectives like “hatred” and “ignorance” these days, primarily because their targets have a contrary opinions. The PC agenda is rampant with this and I believe it is substantially responsible for the unfortunate degradation of dialog today.

          • Bud Tugly

            rational and civil discourse is indeed a lost art. The disgusting show put on by those in Washington about the budget is living proof. Both sides, but it seems the Team Party darlings were THE most irrational and disrespectful of all. It was like listening to the Taliban. Their grasp of economic realities was akin to listening to a fundamentalist creationist trying to convince a rational person that Adam and Eve did indeed ride to church on dinosaurs 5,000 years ago. The Tea Party will indeed guide our country right into the third world.

          • No Surprise

            Oh no, Karolyn scares the hell out of us.
            She is mentally ill.

          • JeffH

            Bud Tugly, I suppose you can back up your words on the Tea Party with some irrefutable facts?

            Some cold hard facts for you.

            Cavuto: Stop Blaming the TEA Partiers for the Debt Crisis
            http://weaselzippers.us/2011/07/22/cavuto-stop-blaming-the-tea-partiers-for-the-debt-crisis/

          • professor

            Many times, there are people, like Karolyn, that are just extremely “irritating”..no matter the topic! I certainly understand when someone wants to give another poster, a “verbal wallop!”
            And, nice words, are not usually what one has in mind. But, I think that is okay, I like a blog where most things are allowed.

            I do think that unflattering posts, made to Bob, Chip, and other professional commenters, are extremely rude! These people do work hard and their opinions should be given a lot of credibility. They don’t expect a, “Poke in the nose,” for their hard work, and they shouldn’t! Clobbering a respected commenter is different than clobbering someone who is an obvious “ninny!” People need to know the difference. Blasting a professional writer, that has offered a well-researched opinion, deserves an intellectual debate, delivered on points given. This shows mutual respect and that is as it should be..

          • professor

            My last sentence…delete the word, “Blasting,” at the beginning…it came from a “left over thought.”

          • Karolyn

            professor – Oh, so only learned writers have your respect? We are all the same and all worthy of respect.

          • MNIce

            Bud Tugly says:
            August 1, 2011 at 3:01 pm

            “rational and civil discourse is indeed a lost art. The disgusting show put on by those in Washington about the budget is living proof. Both sides, but it seems the Team Party darlings were THE most irrational and disrespectful of all. It was like listening to the Taliban. Their grasp of economic realities was akin to listening to a fundamentalist creationist trying to convince a rational person that Adam and Eve did indeed ride to church on dinosaurs 5,000 years ago. The Tea Party will indeed guide our country right into the third world.”

            Sir, your first two sentences would have been able to stand by themselves without your demonstration of the accuracy of the first in your case in the remainder of your comment. “Team Party darlings” is a rather lame sarcasm. “It was like listening to the Taliban.” How so? The Taliban takes a set of dogmas from the Koran and uses them to set up a strict, powerful religious state while ignoring contradictory dogmas from the same source. The Tea Party, by contrast, incorporates many viewpoints, with one common agreement – the State has become too strict, too powerful, and too greedy.

            You then attempt to pejoratively compare them to “fundamentalist creationists.” What are those? A fundamentalist in the traditional sense holds one must believe a certain set of fundamental doctrines to be saved from God’s judgment. Creationism isn’t one of them, (although denial poses a great threat to one’s faith since the rest of the Bible is questionable if Genesis 1-11 is not accepted). I know many creationists, including PhD researchers and professors in the life sciences, and I have never heard them argue that “Adam and Eve did indeed ride to church on dinosaurs 5,000 years ago.” For one thing, Adam was already dead by then (Genesis 5:5). For another, while there is circumstantial evidence that dinosaurs were contemporaneous with man, perhaps as recently as 1000 years ago (Job 40, oral history of aboriginal tribes, paintings and detailed stone carvings including other animals still extant, etc.), there is no reliable evidence that dinosaurs were used as beasts of burden and no rational creationist attempts to make that claim.

            Your comparison is based on an insulting and untrue caricature – hardly civil or rational. You have only undermined the credibility of your unsupported assertion that the Tea Party will “guide our country right into the third world.” The only group that would actually guide us to that point would be the radical environmentalists, but a spendthrift government that continually “eats out [the] substance” of the people and entails debt upon their posterity to the second and third generation could very easily impoverish the nation to the point of third-world economic status.

        • Scott

          Okay Professor,
          I got it. Anyone who disagrees with your opinion is rude. And they should be treated with total disrespect and despised. You must be considered quite respectable in today’s academia.

          • People’s Rights

            Karolyn, I don’t think you are “Gravely Mentally Ill”, but I may be wrong. But I disagree with your leftist agenda, and when you said “I am glad you included a right-winger in your examples.” Bob never pointed out any right-winger in his article or maybe I missed it. Bob talked about “SMSgt Z retired Nam 68’s evil comments and some others as well.

            Bob also said, “trolls paid to disrupt and derail debate.”, etc….

            I agree with him, and a lot of people talk about them as well. Trolls are disguised as Christians, Veterans and Conservatives and very active in their disruption and attempt to damage their opposition.
            I agree with Bob, so join the discussion but let’s engage in civil discourse.

        • karel Eekels

          You are my girl Karolyn.

      • Dagney

        Unfortunately, other people come by and read that ugly dribble. If it is not refuted with an intelligent, but disparaging response, the less informed may take the ignorant or ugly response as FACT. It MUST be refuted. These articles and the comments below are a treasure trove of learning. Learning, I must say that is not taught in schools today. If the crap is not destroyed, the crap becomes FACT to some.

      • FreedomFighter

        Some labels are needed, The democrats are “self proclaimed communist party” or as they say Progressive Liberal.

        The president is a demonstrated socialist, his agenda is evil, against the constitution and illegal in many cases — ie Obama Care, fiat regulation, Czars. He is robbing our children of a free America with liberty and justice and replacing it with Social Justice or Communism.

        They are trying to bring America under Agenda 21 of the UN, or “Stack and Pack” robbing us of the freedom of self determination and to disarm us for further totalitarian aims.

        Im all for cogent discourse, but by God man, they the evil ones are destroying America and we need more than polite words. Yet you are correct its not left/Right its up down, up into freedom or down into totalitarian misery.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

        • home boy

          read 1john 5;19. you are being ruled by satan and the sooner you realize this fact the sooner you will know how to deal with it. no government is your friend.

          • CJM

            homeboy: If you want to quote/refer to scripture, don’t take them out of context. Thank you.

        • Sidewinder

          Freedom Fighter,

          What I am seeing in regards to your comment,…and Freedom Fighter…I don’t mean to come off as if I am attacking, I am not…but what I see, is more of that old, and tired out party politics mentality.

          You go on about the Democrats, but you could say, as many have, that the Republicans are also a self proclaimed Fascist Party. Very little difference between the two parties.

          When you play party politics, you by default, let one party off the hook.

          Obama, may be a socialist at heart, but what concernes me even more, and this should concern you as well, is that the United States of America, is a Corporatist state.
          That’s a form of fascism in case you did not know.

          Very little difference between Fascism and Socialism.

          Fascism involves industry being intricately intertwined with government. Industry being an extension of government.

          When you have that, it become very hard to tell it apart from socialism.

          And this perversion, has been built on the back of BOTH parties, for many decades.

          You tell me….who regulated drugs in this country?

          Does the FDA regulate the drug companies? Or has big Pharma influence taken control of the FDA? If you send your man from industry, into the FDA to head the FDA, who does he really work for?

          Chantix considered safe? Now linked to heart attacks, and unofficially, to psychotic breakdowns. Fen fen? What the hell was that all about? Safe today, yanked from the market tomorrow.
          Who is approving these dangerous drugs? Drug industry insiders running the FDA.

          Who is running who here? That is the key question.

          Who is running the Treasury? And where did he come from?

          We are being looted by industry. The fox is running the Hen House.
          Yes, you can call it socialism, fascism, what ever you feel is right.

          But know this, both parties, both Democrats and Republicans love this.

          And the “Tea Party”…what a total joke.
          I told you people a year ago they cannot be trusted.

          I was chastised, and told the Tea Party was going to “Take Over” the Republican party.
          LOL!
          Nope. You get into bed with whores, you wake up with disease.
          The “Tea Party” it seems, although all for a Balanced Budget Amendment, is totally against any cuts in the DOD budget.
          Hows that for maintaining the Empire?

          Dangerous world, blah, blah, blah……….Bin Laden…All the same nonsense that came from the Bush Administration.
          They have been totally hijacked.
          You can wipe your ass with the Tea Party.

          Freedom Fighter…I think we are actually on the same page here.

          The discrepancy is in …who the enemy is exactly.
          I ask you to EXPAND your definition.
          Because it is much greater than just the Democrats.
          It involves BOTH parties, and now…even the Tea Party.

          All Sell outs.

          Some labels are needed, The democrats are “self proclaimed communist party” or as they say Progressive Liberal.

          The president is a demonstrated socialist, his agenda is evil, against the constitution and illegal in many cases — ie Obama Care, fiat regulation, Czars. He is robbing our children of a free America with liberty and justice and replacing it with Social Justice or Communism.

          They are trying to bring America under Agenda 21 of the UN, or “Stack and Pack” robbing us of the freedom of self determination and to disarm us for further totalitarian aims.

          Im all for cogent discourse, but by God man, they the evil ones are destroying America and we need more than polite words. Yet you are correct its not left/Right its up down, up into freedom or down into totalitarian misery.

          Laus Deo
          Semper Fi

          • Al Sieber

            Very well put Sidewinder, it’s been awhile.

          • Earl

            A small point for all who speak of the “Tea Party”…The organization has been very quietly infiltrated by some of the same people you speak of,i,e. The CFR, Bilderberg group, agenda 21 people and various others. so do your own research and think about that fact while expounding on that subject. There is always more to any organization or group than meets the eye.and yes, some of the infiltrators are connected to big banking….

          • Kate8

            The enemy is going to infiltrate any group formed by the people as resistance. That’s what they do.

            So what’s the answer? Not to even bother trying to band together for our cause because the commies will infiltrate?

            The TeaParty may have infiltrators, but it’s up to the members to be vigilant. I know many TeaPartiers, and their goals haven’t changed. We can’t cave to the enemies because they are insidious. We forge on, without wavering. And maybe do some infiltrating of our own.

          • Victoria

            Well said Earl :)

            Look whos talking, why does he (Freedom Fighter) go in under different names? He signed in under one name (Sidewinder), and he signed out under a different name (Freedom Fighter, Laus Deo Semper Fi).

            He forgot who he signed in under, didn’t he? Aha, the hidden dangers of using multitple names. What he is doing is going in under different names just to talk good about HIMSELF, and build up HIS images. Only this time he got caught.

    • Raggs

      Well here we go… Karo you are a perfect example of what Bob is talking about… “right-winger”… Why is it that liberals always have to tag people that do not agree with their agenda?

      • DaveH

        I believe it’s perfectly legitimate to put people in a class. For Karolyn to use the term right-winger is no offense at all.
        However her use of the phrase “hatred ignorance” in her next comment is another story. I sure do get tired of hearing that word “hatred” whenever a Conservative says something a Liberal doesn’t agree with.
        People with valid factual comments don’t need to sprinkle them with manipulative words.

        • TexasPatriot

          . . . So I guess it’s fine for me to addeess folks like ‘karo’ as libturd/socialist/marxist/communist, right?

          • Gregg Weber

            Of course it is OK to label someone whatever a reasonable person would classify that person as. Especially that person as the classifier.
            If it is true but hurts your feelings there are two options; change and improve yourself, or attack the person expressing the truth.
            If it is true but doesn’t hurt your feelings. There is either no problem or you are so far “gone” that you don’t see it. (Like the person that can fool a lie detecting machine.)
            If it is false and hurts your feelings, fight it. Never give up.
            If it is false and doesn’t hurt your feelings then it is either petty or you are a better man than I Gunga Din.

        • Karolyn

          Dave – Come on! You know the people who use name-calling as their modus operandi. It’s the obvious venom that accompanies their responses that shows hatred. It can’t be denied that it’s there. There are some people who seem compelled to respond just to call someone names. That’s no way to get a point across (Well, usually there is no point anyway).

          • eddie47d

            I don’t know, “Karo”!? It’s odd that Texas patriot says he will try and change as he said in his 8:56 comment then goes about blasting away!? LOL

          • Jay

            Except for the expletive, “libturd”, i don’t see any offensiveness in Texas Patriot’s comment! Karolyn, based on all her posting’s I have analyzed, is, as Texas astutely observed, a socialist/marxist/communist.

          • Capitalist at Birth

            Are you ready to admit what your true beliefs are? Are you a person who believes in individual liberty and freedom? Or are you a person who worships at the alter of the state? Do you want to control other peoples lives, or let them live their lives as they see fir? Are you willing to let people keep most of their earnings, or are you in favor of taking as much as possible because you do not feel it is fair for one person to have more than the next? Tell us Karolyn, are you a totalitarian socialist, Communist, Progessive, or a Nazzi? I read many of your posts, which absolutely say nothing at all.

          • denniso

            I’m glad that Bob Livingston has written an article about being civil in these discussions,but it’s not only the people responding that can be uncivil. Some of the articles themselves set the stage for hostility and incivility…by connecting Obama to Hitler for instance and the many that have been written calling Obama illegitinmte as president.Just how does he expect the few progressives/liberals to react when an article goes off on Obama/Dems w/ myths and inuendo? Though most of the left here still try to remain civil, an inflamatory and misleading article also provokes the right to ramp up their own anger and hostility, and the race is on.

            Another thing missing from Bob’s generally welcome article is the ultimate in incivility…people here,on the right,making overt or implied death threats against Obama and other liberals/Dems. I’ve called people on it and brought it to Bob’s attention,only to be told that,’they don’t really mean it’,or,’it’s just a commonly used phrase’,or,’they’re just expressing their frustration w/ Obama’,or,’you should relax’. Calling people vile names and using vulgar language is one thing…suggesting or threatening or condoning violence or assasination is quite another,and is the epitome of incivility and breaks down any attempt at civil discourse much more than bad words.

            Bob Livingston talks about listening to and learning from his readers…maybe he will listen to this.

          • Karolyn

            Capitalist – I prefer not to label myself. There are some ideas I like from all camps. I believe in smaller government; however, there should be enough government to protect people from overly greedy capitalists and those who would otherwise hurt them. I’m against war and pro humanity. I am passionate about we humans taking care of our own health without the intercession of the FDA to take away our rights to the use of natural supplements. I can find merit in a lot of what is said by the different factions. Since I was a child, I have pretty much remained as a Switzerland, always being the mediator and recognizing each side’s right to believe as they want. I prefer to pick and choose from the menu. Above all, I believe in the fact that we are all one; and the only reason we are here is to help one another. That is my primary purpose. Of course, you will say thatI have said nothing; and that’s OK too. I’m happy with me, and that’s what counts! :-)

          • Jay

            denniso, no one here really listens to you. As for people making implied death threats on your beloved messiah? Non-sense! What you should really be worried about, is obama’s and his cronies’s, not threats, but a determined decision to destroy the United States of America! If some here respond to the threat on our country in a way you may perceive as uncivil, all I can say is: Tough bananas boy, and you can take your “political correctness” somewhere else. This is not the time to mince words, when our nation is facing the greatest threat in its history, by the infiltration and take-over of the White-House administration by socialist/communist dogs, but to speak plainly, and without reservation, and to hell with the sensitive, brainwashed, socialist wall-flowers!

          • DaveH

            Karolyn,
            I would say that it is hatred to the highest degree when people help themselves to other peoples’ money and property using the voting booth as their cover.

          • JeffH

            Jay, gotta agree with both you and DaveH. The “hate” and “threat” accusations have always been limited to a minority few around here who troll mindlessly through these comments. I especially get a kick out of the attacks on PLD and the staff, who are doing a tremendous service in keeping us engaged and involved. I find the “parrot” comments most amusing, especially repeating the leftist MSM driven attacks on the “Tea Party”.

            The grassroots Tea Party movement, to a large degree, are more reponsible for the current debt debate/rejections that are taking place now and they should be hailed and applauded for having a real effect in Washington. At least they’ve been able to influence the debate rather than cave in to the old beltway status quo of spend and spend more. Not bad I’d say for a bunch of concerned middle class American patriots.

            As for labels? If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then it is a duck!

          • denniso

            The great tea party is so clueless that it’s hard to believe…even the majority of other Repubs,and the leaders in Congress know that we have to raise the debt ceiling or face catastrophe. It has essentially no bearing on spending and is no blank check for Obama,who has to have any spending approved by congress. It is an arbitrary limit that has had no real meaning in our economic life until now,when we are trying to come out of a deep recession. The tea party and other blind Repubs are willing to let our country sink back into recession for the sake of a line in the sand they have drawn…luckily,even Boehner/McConnell know better. The teap party comes together w/ these absolute ideas about how the economy works and they know almost nothing about our economic system.

          • DaveH

            As usual, Denniso is here to provide comic relief posing as the court jester.
            At least I hope you’re kidding, Denniso. If you’re not, you need help.

          • DaveH

            Those Greedy Capitalists just want to keep their own legally made money, Karolyn. Your kind wants to take their money away forcibly. Who are the Greedy ones here?

          • Al Sieber

            Dave, Jeff, I had to put out $2500, and another $1340 today just to lease more land from the Fed. Govt., if we can’t work our own land where are we? it goes up every year, $15.00- $20.00 and it all adds up fast. it’s our land.

          • bob wire

            “Jay says:
            August 1, 2011 at 10:07 am

            Except for the expletive, “libturd”, i don’t see any offensiveness in Texas Patriot’s comment! ”

            You don’t? hmm? ~okay ~ so he only struck one blow below the belt and that’s okay? ~how tolerant of you.

            Words are like bullets, once they have left the barrel, any attempt to return them to the gun is futile.

          • JeffH

            Al Sieber, I feel for ya man.

          • denniso

            DaveH still makes these simplistic statements and thinks they are profound. Again,Dave,why don’t you tell us if you are against all taxation,and how you would run a gov’t w/ no taxes/fees or oversight. Maybe sell everything to the Koch Bros and let them run the country,all natural resources,and keep the money? Wouldn’t they still charge fees for everything we do?

            Al Seiber is whining a bit too much about leasing OUR land for his business interests and profits. Gee, $15,$20 per acre to put cows on OUR land and make money for himself…terrible,just terrible. I guess he advocates anyone at all using OUR land w/ no strings attached for their particular business…boy, the mean old gov’t is sure unfair to Al.

        • Always Right

          I have to disagree with you, Dave H. What the left calls “right-wingers, (such as myself) are often right smack-dab in the middle of the political spectrum. Every time I take that political compass test, that is where I end up. It is just that the loony left is so far left that they’re completely off the map so EVERYBODY who doesn’t agree with them is, in what passes for ‘minds’ among their type, “right wingers”. I see no reason to be civil with people who are destroying my nation then labeling me a “hater” or “ignorant” just because I happen to stand in the Bible and constitution. I think them seditious, scurrilous, rabid dogs and feel they should be treated as such. IF they were capable of cogent, facts-based thought, they’d not be leftists. As the old saying goees “don’t try to teach a pig to sing. All you do is waste your time and irritate the pig”. Christ warned us not to cast our pearls before swine nor to give what is holy to dogs. These are the “swine” & “dogs” of whom he spoke.

          • denniso

            Funny,but we liberals think exactly the same of you ‘conservatives’…that you’re trying to wreck the country and don’t care if you do if it’ll get you back in power,that you’ve all lost your collective minds,that you are irrational,self centered and greedy war mongers…

            I wonder if you know that liberals are vastly better educated than conservatives? That the great majority of all scientists are liberal/progressives? That the rightwing fundamentalist Christian loons have co opted the Repub party,and the NRA basically owns it?

          • Jay

            What an angry little man you are denniso, and your statement reveals that you are desperate, and pathetic as well. As for liberals being better educated? Well, we know that you said that out of blind anger and desperation with the intent to injure. We, conservatives, understand your one-dimensional, and all-consuming bigotry that ails you. As for your claim that the great majority of all scientists are liberals/progressives? Off course! Who else, but liberal/progressive scientists, could have conjured-up the global-warming fairy tale? And to make matters worse, were exposed (climate-gate) for the corrupted, lying, uneducated, and incompetent baboons that they truly are!

          • denniso

            ‘Off course’?? Hmmm…Well, I’m not so little,and,’desperate’? Hardly.
            Just trying to counter some of the pure stupidity and unbelievable ignorance that continues to emanate from you blind rightwingers here.

          • Jay

            My my, that’s quite the gigantic ego you’ve got there denniso, and off course, typical of a socialist/progressive/communist. I was about to call you a Liberal, but I do not wish to insult Liberals. Personally, I think most Liberals would find you offensive, and embarrassing!

          • denniso

            Oh,and you rightwing wackos,like Limbaugh,have such tiny egos that you never think you are right about anything. And the kind and passive tea party jokers who almost sent us into another depression because they are absolutely convinced that only they know how to fix the economy,and no economists know anything…sure,you people are all bags of hot air w/ giant egos inflated w/ ignorance and stupidity…what a laugh!

          • Jay

            Get a hold of yourself denniso, you rabid schnauzer, you’re drooling all over your keyboard! Btw, say hello to your Führer, obama. Sieg heil !!!

          • denniso

            I’d like to see,just once,you write something of substance rather than just calling Obama or me and others names and hurling insults. Is that at all possible? I would give you the benefit of the doubt that it is…

        • Sidewinder

          yeahhh…Dave,
          And when a Liberal says something a Conservative doesn’t agree with as well.

    • SMSgt Z retired Nam 68

      Bob

      Again you have failed to tell the whole story some of your followers believed they should attempt to kick my A$$ as they put it and a whole bunch chimed in yes and we will help.

      You say ” Anyone who has spent much time reading the columns here must understand we do not subscribe to conventional wisdom. We are not a part of the left-right paradigm which, along with class warfare, is a ploy of the elites to keep Americans focused on tangential issues rather than their loss of liberty”.That would be great if you gave all the facts but you do not.The EPA is on example your do not explain why it was formed One quick example of why it was needed and still is;is the Cuyahoga River in Ohio.You or your followers have no idea about this or all the man made disasters.
      More half truths Bob others started the name calling I finished it
      What kind of response is that? I’d be willing to bet SMSgt Z doesn’t make remarks of this nature to people standing next to him. If he does, then he surely has few friends but many enemies.
      But insults are apparently all SMSgt Z has. Here is another of his comments, this one directed at fellow commenter on Robert Ringer’s most recent column:
      More half truths this individual called any one who did not believe as he did a mindless idiot Bob can’t you get anything correct
      To find a mindless idiot all you have to do is look in the mirror. Mouth breather You need to get your med’s adjusted.
      Next to last if you like I can prove I was a good Republican till the way McCain was attacked during the 2000 primaries I’m now an Independent
      For any Nam Vet’s and Good Bye Bob
      Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) submitted Amendment #564 to MilCon/VA Spending Bill (H.R.2055) to change the manner in which presumptive disabilities related to exposure to Agent Orange would be determined. If approved it would have significantly restrict benefits to Vietnam veterans. Currently Vietnam veterans are presumed to be exposed to Agent Orange if they have certain conditions or diseases after the VA determines that a positive association exists between the exposure and the occurrence of the disease. Congress chose this mechanism because it is nearly impossible for Vietnam veterans to prove that exposure to Agent Orange caused their disease. The senator wanted to require veterans to prove a positive connection between Agent Orange exposure and one or more of the 15 presumptive illnesses that the VA now recognizes. Requiring a “causal relationship” would essentially have meant that VA benefits for Agent Orange exposure would have been out of reach for many Vietnam veterans that were exposed to the Agent Orange herbicide.
      Now that the VA Secretary has determined he had the scientific evidence required to recognize the disabilities, Coburn wanted a change in presumptive rules presumable as a cost saving measure to balance the budget. Fortunately, On 20 JUL the Senate voted on Coburn‘s amendment and defeated it by a vote of 69-30. The 30 Senators who voted for the amendment were: Alexander (R-TN) | Barrasso (R-WY) | Blunt (R-MO) | Chambliss (R-GA) | Coats (R-IN) | Coburn (R-OK) | Cochran (R-MS) | Corker (R-TN) | Cornyn (R-TX) | Crapo (R-ID) | DeMint (R-SC) | Enzi (R-WY) | Graham (R-SC) | Hatch (R-UT) | Hutchison (R-TX) | Johnson (R-WI) | Kirk (R-IL) | Kyl (R-AZ) | Lee (R-UT) | Lugar (R-IN) | McCain (R-AZ) | McConnell (R-KY) | Paul (R-KY) | Portman (R-OH) | Risch (R-ID) | Sessions (R-AL) | Shelby (R-AL) | Toomey (R-PA) | Vitter (R-LA) | Wicker (R-MS). Veterans who would have been impacted by this amendment are encouraged to take time to thank those Senators who voted in favor of veterans, as well as to let those who voted for the amendment know their disappointment that they would try to balance the budget on the backs of disabled veterans. [Source: VFW & FRA Action Alerts 20 Jul 2011 ++]

      • Al Sieber

        Hey Sarge, are you sure you’re not really Jovianus? anytime, anywhere, Sarge, tough guy.

        • Void1972

          Al
          SMsgt is extremely ill. He lost his baring a long time ago. Don’t waste your time replying to these lost souls. Denniso, Karolyn, mark and so on. Don’t justify their ignorance with a response. Ignore them and they will go away.

    • Brian

      Rational debate or courteous discussion seems to have died. Not only in America, but also in Australia.

      What is being argued in both countries without very many people being aware of it, is the divide between Keynesian economics (an oxymoron) and Austrian economics. The most popular model has been Keynes in America, Britain and Australia.

      It is in these countries that debt has blown out to monstrous proportions. (Greece is the result of socialist thinking and unbridled greed by the people who live there.)In Australia we had a $21 Billion surplus, but in 3 years that has become a $150 Billion debt. America has seen a debt that will never be repaid build up in only 3 years.

      Keynes argued that when the public aren’t spending that the Government should do so. This is flawed thinking. When a man is dragged from the surf with water in his lungs, you don’t pour water down his throat! We all have too much debt, yet our leaders want us to spend!!!! America has been buying things it doesn’t need from (mostly China) with money borrowed from China?!! And that has been going on now for years.

      In Australia the socialist government is now introducing taxes like you would not believe to try to balance the books. They do not understand the role of money at all.

      If you were to say Barak O is deliberately trying to destroy America, I would be inclined to believe you. But Keynesian economists live in fairy land anyway.

  • Sandra Herrick

    After working in retail for 20 years I have seen a tremedous decline in the American personality. It is not anonymity that is causing the vile and crude comments. The coarseness of our society is in everyday life and is increasing by the day. I have seen grown men and women throw temper tantrums and spout out all kinds of obscene words when they think they won’t get their way. Reason, courtesy and diplomacy are rare! I would also like to point out that many “civil” peole post comments about the Dems or Pubs but do not cite sources to verify their statements. Being new to politics I need to verify everything I read or hear. So much info out there it is hard to know the truth about anybody or anything. This is probably why there is so much anger and hostility, who do you trust?

    • Dagney

      My browser has a little Google box. If something is stated as fact that I’m curious about, I do a search. The comments are just that, comments. You learn, after a while, who is posting from real knowledge and intelligence and who is posting from ignorance. If you want to know more, Google it!

      • FlaJim

        Use any other search engine but Google. They’re recording everything you do and are closely allied to the current regime with whom they’re already sharing information.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Flajim, Sadly most search engines are enhanced by GOOGLE.

          • FreedomFighter

            Check into Startpage search engine.

            Laus Deo
            Semper Fi

          • Angel Wannabe

            FF, Thanks, I’ll do that! :)

          • eyeswideopen

            Angel, what people don’t realize is that since the internet, all people who use it gave up their right of privacy. Every government in the world tracks or has ability to see everything you type. Transparency goes both ways, they know everything about us, while we learn everything about them. Soon as you obtained a computer, you gave up personal information to the entire world. We will see how it plays out.

          • DaveH

            Getting on the Internet in no way sacrifices our right to privacy. No more so than having a conversation with a friend in your house gives the Government the right to snoop there.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Eyes, the thing is, The Government isn’t and was never suppose to be in place to run our lives. They are not there to provide what we cannot afford. They’re Orignal Intent was to be there to protect the people and the Republic from foreigners who would topple this intent. They’re there to provide and enviroment for we the people to live in, so we can create a way of life and to flourish, God willing. Wasn’t it Ben Franklin who said, “Its a republic if you can keep it”? If I’m wrong on the phrase, someone please correct me. Nothing is free Eyes. Except the Love of God.

      • Always Right

        FlaJim is right. Google is evil. They were snitching the chinese users off the the chi-com government for prosecution based upon simple search terms, like “freedom”. They’d do the same here. They’re all snuggly in bed with the current junta and they’d sell you out in a heartbeat.

    • DaveH

      Sandra,
      I believe that is a result of too much Government meddling with our personal choices. Every person in this country has their own unique set of likes and dislikes. Most of us can’t figure why some people would make the choices they make. And I would guess that most of us would not mind Government making those choices for them, since we think they are wrong-headed. That’s where it has all gone wrong.
      There are few life choices any of us make that another person wouldn’t think could have been done better. So, that makes it easy for people to advocate or at least turn their head to Government making those choices for them. The problem is that whatever Government chooses to control, you can bet that a large portion of the population doesn’t agree. One size does not fit all, and never will.
      So unhappiness and animosity are unavoidable within a Big Government framework. People just do not like somebody else making their life choices.
      If we want to get our Peace back, we need to relearn the wisdom that certain Forefathers tried to instill and get Government (at all levels) back to their only legitimate role which is to protect people from the Force of others. People should be left free to make their own choices about their own bodies and property as long as those choices don’t trespass on other peoples’ bodies and property.

      http://libertarianparty.org/platform

    • TexasPatriot

      I agree with most of what you say. However, I think that anonymity plays a significant role here. Why do you think this ‘coarseness’ has supplanted polite discourse? Could it be degradation (if not abdication) of proper parenting? How about the massive effort on the part of the ‘politically correct’ crowd to remove any aspect of religion (mostly Christian) from the public world? I believe that when humans have no God to answer to and they consider themselves gods, a decline into the cesspool of amorality, such as what we are witnessing, is inevitable.

    • Void1972

      Bob
      Thank you so much for an honest look at human behavior. This is who we are, and the Elites know it. They know how to push the buttons that make as mad as hell at each other. They control the media to continue to feed each side against the other.
      This site offers true facts on real life events that no other offers. I find you and your staff honest, educational, and sometimes humorous on the American subject.
      I have learned so much from many of the great American’s on this site, and even from many communist that spew hatred for America.
      We learn that what we fight against is hatred for America, and that in the end goodness, honesty and America will prevail.
      God Bless you and your staff Bob.

      • JeffH

        Void1972, well said and I’ll second that…HEAR HEAR!

        • JeffH

          Not sure why this comment is “awaiting moderation”…still “glitches” I guess.

      • Kate8

        Void and JeffH – Perhaps the spewing of hatred in some of the comments gives insight into just how much emotion is being stirred up in the factions in America.

        I know the Lefties will deny this, but from what I see and hear, the Left is especially given to this type of rhetoric, whether on blogsites or political rallys. The hatred toward conservatives is teetering toward violence already, and what makes this especially unsettling is that the POTUS and his pals are right with them, egging them on. Right now they are the ones holding the big stick.

        Maybe it’s not a good idea to censor these types of comments. Let people show themselves for who they are. After all, we do have the option of just ignoring them.

        • Jana

          Kate8,
          I agree with you all the way. Every time Obama even speaks he has to put down Republicans or put down Bush.
          I listen and I don’t hear the Republicans retaliating back. In fact the way most of them talk it seems they are walking on egg shells NOT to make trouble. I was so glad Boehner finally stepped up and told the American public that Obama was like jello, and told them the truth.
          We can be respectful, but let the truth be known.

          One major problem is when two people honestly disagree with what the truth is. It seems quite clear to each of them that the other is wrong.

          • Carlucci

            The republicans don’t retaliate because they are in bed with the dems.
            The two parties are a two headed monster on the same body. All of the incumbents have gotta go, except for the Doctors Paul and the few remaining who have that same Libertarian ideology.

          • Kate8

            Carlucci – Of course you are right about the R’s being in bed with the D’s when it comes to the political class, but it’s going on among the citizenry, who are very serious about their ideologies. That’s why we’re so easy to manipulate and rile.

        • Always Right

          The left is teetering toward acts of violence to the right? Bring it on, boys, girls & LBQTRSRTEV’s (making sure to include all their genders; real, imagined & self-inflicted). It is time to nourish the tree of liberty. And while you’re trying to hit me with your purse (that would be the “men” of the left), I’ll rain down upon your person pain like you never believed possible. Please, throw the first stone.

          • Kate8

            Always Right – You go!

        • JeffH

          Kate8, you know I have to agree with you. Just how much proof can one provide even though there has been so much posted with links as back-up. Hate, fearmongers,Sara Palin and the Tea Party…need I say more? It’s nothing more than progressive rhetoric.

          Pure D-E-N-I-A-L…

  • http://yahoo Rob

    If we true Americans were/are that upset with what is going on in Washington, we would be taking it to the streets,have a March on Washington, be seen, be heard. During the 60′s and 70′s the people did just that. We have lost our nerve where apathy and complacency rule. We have only ourselves to blame.

    • bruce

      Rob,
      Look at the aerial photos of the Tea Party when over one million Americans protested in Washington. The mainstream media tried to downplay the number of people and reported them as much smaller but photos dont like–media people do. As a sidenote, ask anyone who was there, they did not trash our capitol or committ crimes while they were there, either. Contrast that to the crowd at Obama’s inauguration. Big difference, but the point it, people HAVE stood up to be counted and it is the Tea Party movement that has influenced the country most in the last year.

    • JimRed

      Rob, the TEA Party folks are harder to gather fequently in mass numbers because of a simple fact: most of them are working people and can spare limited time to rallies or protests. The 60′s and 70′s protestors were primarily students, collecting the dole, draft dodgers, layabouts or public employees.

      That said, I do wish I had more opportunities to get out there with a large contingent of like-minded folks to express our displeasure at the shenanigans in D.C.

      • TexasPatriot

        JimRed, you just described me to a tee. I consider myself a Tea Party member, but I can’t even find local meetings or events to attend. I would be thrilled to participate in a more meaningful way, given the opportunity. I am certainly with them in spirit and in principle.

        • KM

          Texas Patriot,
          Why don’t you organize a local affiliate group in your area? None of the founders of the TEA Party or Tea Party Patriots had background in getting such groups started. Maybe a small ad in a local paper and you’d find like-minded individuals also ‘waiting for someone to lead them’. I am guilty of this too. But we need to get off our duffs and do something, as well as write to our elected officials.
          During the debt ceiling debacle, I went right to the top and wrote to Speaker Boehner, Eric Cantor, Paul Ryan, and Mitch McConnell.
          I agree with Bob that civil discourse and debate is becoming scarce. I see evidence of it in comments on these conservative sites and in my own neighborhood and family.
          This president and administration have been very divisive. We do need to try to find common ground, as a nation divide cannot stand.

    • Dagney

      There is a problem with that. The people protesting in the 1960′s were college kids who knew nothing and were stirred up by Marxist ideas. They didn’t have jobs at that time, they weren’t busy. They were dissatisfied with themselves but decided to put the blame on the “establishment”. Then they got their college degress and became the “establishment”. They entered academia, the media, and government. So, they still have lots of time on their hands to blame others for their angst. But, now, they have the power the “transform” things, and boy are they doing it!

      Tea party people on the other hand…..WORK and take care of their families. They don’t blame others for their problems. They don’t have time to “hit the streets” much less pay attention to the whiners in government. However, they are now noticing the damage being done. They are starting to realize their innattention is allowing crybabies to destroy the best country in the world. So, it will take time, but the Tea Party people and the people who back them are making themselves known. They still have to WORK and take care of their families, you know.

      You will see a huge blow back come November 2012, I have no doubt about it.

      • jim

        I HOPE you are right! We MUST throw these lib dem pigs OUT, before they can destroy our Great country any more!

        • eyeswideopen

          JIM, JIM, JIM, WE went 16 posts without, repeat, without someone calling the other side a name, and you had to call the dems, pigs. Why did you feel the need to do that? How can you hate another American that much to lump all Dem’s into a pig catagory? That is why the right wing has been titled “RADICAL”!

          • Dagney

            Nope, the “radical” term used by lefties is PROJECTION. They are the radicals because they want to “transform” our society which used to be the greatest society in the world until “progressives” (actually regressives) started their incremental transformation about 100 years ago.

          • Kate8

            So now we’re going to have the more militant bloggers policing the comments for what they consider to be inappropriate.

            We get into a dangerous area when our speech is curtailed for whatever reason. In America, we always had the right to be stupid, and even offensive. We also had the right to ignore those who we find offensive.

            It’s a slippery slope. Are we going to all now be treated like we are in a sixth grade classroom and told to mind our p’s and q’s or be kicked out of class? Are we going to start all acting like Lefty crybabies who can’t have our feelings hurt? Aren’t we supposed to be adults here? This is where the loss of free speech begins, and soon the rules start to get more and more strict as we are “urged” toward more “sensitivity”.

            So I guess free speech takes another blow, right here where the objective is supposed to be preserving our personal liberty.

            The snarky Left is going to have a field-day with this.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Kate8, I throughly agree!

          • Karolyn

            Kate – I don’t think Bob Livingston is doing any such thing. What is wrong with “civil discourse?” And what’s wrong with discussing civil discourse? There have been discussions here that have been thoroughly enoyable, even though we haven’t all agreed, and it was because it was civil. There was give and take, and no one was attacked. That is the kind of debate one can learn from!

          • libertytrain

            I think if there were militant police on this site you wouldn’t have been able to post your comment.

        • Richard

          I PERSONALLY believe that both parties were so wrapped up in their party to see the forest for the trees. They were sent there by the people. Once there they should adopt the will of the people. their preoccupation with reelection makes them ineffectual. If WE don’t clean them all out, the PARTY will always be paramount. I hope the voters listen and draw a conclusion of the officials track record we are in trouble. Thanks for putting up with me!

      • Gregory

        Bob,

        Thank you for this article on civil discourse. I totally agree that it is possible to respectfully disagree without name calling and ridicule. Somewhere in this thread there was a comment about protests in the 60′s & 70′s and current conditions warrant the same, and I agree. The Tea Party was mentioned as though it is the savior of American values, and I totally disagree. The TP has become the most divisive entity in the nation and is starting to discover the backlash. They are to be commended for their efforts in sweeping in change in the 2010 elections and for holding firm to the idea of reducing the deficit. However, that alone will not solve America’s economic condition. Where was the TP when deficit spending got out hand under “W” ? At this time, reducing the deficit is not our biggest problem. Unemployment is our biggest problem, and if more were employed, revenue would increase since more would contribute through taxes, which would help decrease the deficit. Job creation has not occurred through tax cuts (as theorized) over the past 12 years and there’s a word for continuing to do the same thing expecting different results (INSANITY). Instead, how about diverting oil & gas subsidies to new, emerging forms of energy creation and/or the rebuilding of our American infrastructure and building a high speed rail system. Alternative energy technology could be exported and existing rail companies and private entities could be created and be sustainable. Investment is what is needed now more than ever, not the narrow focus on reducing spending and continuing with tax cuts that only benefit the few that control most of our economy.

        • eyeswideopen

          Gregory, concise, thoughtful, respectful, fact ridden, gave your own opinion without attacking anothers, thank you for post. Hands clapping!

        • Dagney

          More leftist talking points. “High speed rail” is a collectivist wet dream. It means lefties can control people’s movements. Driving a car is the ULTIMATE in freedom and the Marxist left hate them. “Subsidies” to oil companies is a fallacy, too. Oil companies are one of the most highly regulated businesses in this country. Those “subsidies” are the same normal tax breaks ALL businesses have. The Bush tax cuts created more jobs than any lefty program ever will. Here’s a good article to start your education on how people keeping their OWN money benefits all…

          http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703977004575393882112674598.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

          I believe you can confirm these numbers on the government’s own website.

          Job creation will not happen as long as there is UNCERTAINTY. Extending the Bush tax rates did nothing to help because rates were not LOWERED and they expire AGAIN after two years. Add into the mix the mess called OBAMACARE and businesses just are not going to hire because, even though it has passed, we still don’t “know what’s in it” to paraphrase the Marxist Nancy Pelosi.

          • eyeswideopen

            Dagney, so was the railroad that made this country great! Your point being?

          • Karolyn

            I wonder if the people in Europe and Japan who primarily ride public transportation feel not free? I understand and appreciate the freedom to go where I want when I want; however, how does having high speed rail equate to people not having their own vehicles?

          • Kate8

            eyes and Karolyn – If you would take the time to study Agenda 21, you’d see that the plan is egg-crate housing built along a rail system. Single-family homes and cars are destined for extinction.

            This is being done through raising costs of everything – taxes, fuel -EVERYTHING – so that people can no longer afford to have private homes and cars. It’s all very insidious.

            It’s kind of amazed me how the elites have come up with this plan. They’ve declared our American lifestyle “unsustainable”, so they act as if that gives them the right to deliberately destroy it for all but themselves.

            In the first place, how do they know it is unsustainable? Innovation is part of a thriving society. Why not just have faith that things will all even out for the good of all, instead of pulling the rug out from beneath everyone who’s spent a lifetime pursuing a dream because “it can’t continue”? Well, they’re seeing to it that it DOESN’T continue, because they are most likely afraid we’d figure out how to live without THEM. They’ll give those of us who survive their contrived wars and “events” lives of servitude and austerity so that they can have it ALL.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, get ready for the “conspiracy” accusations…UN Agenda 21 is readily available for review and very real…
            http://www.un.org/esa/sustdev/documents/agenda21/english/Agenda21.pdf

      • TexasPatriot

        Dagney, thanks for your insightful post. I am in complete agreement. I was one of those numb-brained radicals in the 60s. However, I didn’t go on to academia, government, or media. My family was too poor to afford me a great education or open any of those doors. Instead, I enlisted in the USAF and learned a trade (computer programming) which allowed me to marry and support a family. So now, at 61, I am the exact Tea Party supporter you describe so well. I love this country and I cannot understand why so many don’t see that the political class (under control of the elite class) are working hard to destroy all that made her great and pushing us to enslavement under a reign of tyranny.

        • Dagney

          Good on you! You had the brains and insight to know the difference between good and evil and made the change. I’m not sure I would have done as well. I was born this way. I think I’ve always been a conservative, knowing the difference between right and wrong (not that I’ve always done so…no, no, no, no! LOL). But, I think it is much harder seeing an error of your ways and thinking and making the change within yourself.

          • Karolyn

            Are you saying only conservatives know the difference between right and wrong? Everyone is born with an innate moral compass.

          • JC

            Karolyn says:

            August 1, 2011 at 11:57 am

            Are you saying only conservatives know the difference between right and wrong? Everyone is born with an innate moral compass.
            __________________________________________________________________

            And what direction on this moral compass says its ok to steal money from hardworking people and give it to the lazy and incompetent?

            What aspect of morality says one can not defend their property and their family?

            What aspect of morality allows that the government should be able allow its corporate buddies to poison us with food additives and dangerous pharmaceutical drugs?

            Where on the moral compass are we supposed to stand idly by while our hard earned money is sent overseas to people who haven’t earned it in any way?

            What moral law is our government acting under when they debase our currency and our economy making us all the poorer while they live in the lap of luxury?

            On what moral plane do our elected officials decide the level and availability of our medical care while they exempt themselves and enjoy the best medical care in the world?

            Not attacking, just asking because I don’t see any morality built into these parasites at all and I thought maybe you have some sort of an answer…

          • Karolyn

            The morality we are born with is changed by society via parents, peers, fellow humans. I feel the same way you do about the points you listed. I don’t know where you get the impression that I wholeheartedly back the government and/or Obama.

          • JC

            Well Karolyn, I guess that theoreticaly we both agree that our governmental system is way off its leash. I think the cure is in cutting off its allowance…End the Fed. :)

          • Kate8

            karolyn – I disagree that we are all born with an innate moral compass.

            Some are born with no compass at all, no sense of conscience. People like Hitler, Amin, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Soros, Manson, Obama…

            It is not just environment that shapes who we are. We are born with certain tendencies and personality structure, and it’s different for everyone. To claim that it is all environmental is to say that everyone is exactly the same at birth, but shaped by experience. I know that darwinians like to declare that, but I say that it is totally false. Some are born with a heart of goodness, and some are nothing less than satan’s spawn. And there are infinite combinations of those things.

        • eyeswideopen

          TexasPatriot, which political party are you talking about? Are you saying that the elite are dems? If that were so, don’t you think they would be getting their own way politically? You certainly don’t think that if the richest were dems, they would be allowing the repubs to hold this country hostage do you? If they had control, you wouldn’t have had the tax cuts extended in Dec.

        • JeffH

          TexasPatriot and Dagney, both comments are well stated.

          I wasn’t a “60′s radical” nor even really interested in politics at all growing up. I didn’t become a “radical” until 2009 when I joined PLD and became politically active through this website and the Tea Party.

        • Void1972

          Bob

          President Barack Obama’s 2011 commencement speech at Miami Dade College
          “Choose to stand up”
          “We’ve gone thought periods of great turmoil, from an economy where most people worked on farms to one where most people worked in factories, and now one fueled by information and technology. Through it all we’ve persevered. We’ve adapted. We’ve prospered. Workers found their voice, and the right to organize for fair wages and safe working conditions. We carried forward.
          When waves of Irish and Italian immigrants were derided as criminals and outcast; when Catholics were discriminated against, or Jews had to succumb to quotas, or Muslims were blamed for societies ills; when blacks were treated as second class citizens and marriages like my own parents’ were illegal in much of the country-we didn’t stop. We didn’t accept inequality. We fought. We overcame. We carried the dream forward.
          We have carried this dream forward through times when our politics seemed broken. This is not the first time where it looked like politicians were going crazy. In heated debates over our founding, some warned independence would doom America to “a scene of bloody discord and desolation for ages.” That was the warning about independence. One of our greatest presidents, Thomas Jefferson, was labeled an “Infidel” and a “howling atheist” with “fangs.” Think about that. Even I haven’t gotten that one yet. Lincoln, FDR, they were both vilified in their own times as tyrants, power hungry, bent on destroying democracy. And of course, this state has seen it’s fair share of tightly contested elections.
          And we’ve made it through those moments. none of it was easy. A lot of it was messy. Sometimes there was violence. sometimes it took years, even decades, for us to find our way through. But here’s the thing, we made it through. We made it through because in each of those moments, we made a choice. Rather then turn inward and wall off America from the rest of the world, we’ve chosen to stand up forcefully for the ideals and the rights we believe are universal for all men and women.”
          Sound a little progressive?

    • Karolyn

      There have to be organizers to get any type of gathering under way, and they have to be people with the ability to influence. Jon Stewart did it because he has a TV show. So did Glen Beck. Not too many people want to devote the time and effort necessary.

    • Dan az

      Rob
      During the 60s and 70s the only way to be heard was to take to the streets in large numbers to get noticed by the press,but today we have the means as to being the press and spreading the words by way of millions of readers that spread the words among all of there friends and family.To me this is a much better way as observed by the bias media that only gives lies and lack of information as to control the minds.I have found there is know better way to communicate freely the truth that is hidden solely for the benefit of the elite.At least for now,And that’s why I feel they are afraid of the internet becaus they know longer have the control,we do!

      • eyeswideopen

        Dan az, my husband just said that the internet has allowed the total corruption of our three party government to be seen by those willing to search for the truth. The lies that were told 10-15 even 20 years ago are documented and available since the internet came into being. That is how I became an Independent, after being a Republican all my life. Since I was in the medical field, I stayed up watching the 2003 bill on Medicare Advantage go through the process. At that point, when I figured out it wasn’t funded and allowed no negioations for the government, I knew the Republican party as I knew it was gone. The two wars not funded was really the last straw. Hell, I thought I could get over the torturing, by our vice president, but those combined facts made me aware of the hyprocisy being spouted. I never wanted to be a member of a party who excluded anyone.

        • DaveH

          Let’s examine this. She says she doesn’t like the Republicans. And she doesn’t like the Libertarians. What do Republicans and Libertarians have in common? Really the only common themes would be Freedom of Religion, and respect for other peoples’ property rights.
          So which of those two are you against, Eyes? Maybe both?

    • Always Right

      Unlike the hippy trash of the 60′s & 70′s, we’re not being funded and orgaized by a communist goverment like they were and still are. The difference being that now that “communist government” is that if the US as opposed to the USSR as it was then.

  • Monte

    Our political system (if you can even call it that) long ago degenerated to simple demagoguery. A party pushes buttons till they push one that gets a response. After that, they milk it for all that they can get from it. Of course, the issue itself is of no real interest to the party at all. The real issue, the one that always remains hidden. is money and power, nothing more – ever. Perhaps no better example could be found than the slave debates, an issue that was never for a moment about anything but money and power. The issues proved a gold mine for, even today, our political demogogues are still wringing money and power from it, though the institution itself has been dead 150 years.

  • Angel Wannabe

    In defense, Bottom Line, Bob, The American People are both scared and angry which produces a lot of dangerous emotions. They know somethings wrong here in America, but don’t know whats wrong, much less what to do about it.__Every day we are fed our daily dose of crapola from the news media and Washington. The news media to me is an “extended arm of Washington and say what they’re told.(Although thanks to the Internet, not all news outlets are so so Washington Skewed.__ TRUE, folks will say things here they wouldn’t normally say in face to face conversation. NOW_Are they Venting?, Passionate Americans?, I think it depends what side of the fence your on. As it seems the Liberals stay fairly quiet as long as they’re getting they’re own way. When the scales tip toward the right, is when they start screaming FOUL!__ I for one never went quite as far as !41 but I’ve done my share of splitting hairs with the Liberals. I make no apologies for my disrespecting the views of people, who enjoy the destruction of the Republic, which the Liberals do. I don’t excuse they’re mindset as merely as “They’re doing what they believe to be right”! I think they’re on the wrong path and if they want European Socialism they and they’re Imperial wannabe Dictator in The White House, should to move to the EU. Civil discourse is as old as some of us posters on here are. Our Freedom was born in the debt of night and bloody,the Founders didn’t only discuss succession, they did it!__ Life’s tough and then you die, I’d rather die knowing I offered a bit of passion and an atta boy to God for leading the Founders on they’re quest. “”"Political Correctness didn’t create the finest Country in the world, Political Correctness won’t keep it either!”"

    • Cawmun Cents

      “””Political Correctness didn’t create the finest Country in the world, Political Correctness won’t keep it either!””………….Exactly!-CC.

    • Dave

      I’m reminded of the old professional wrestling tag teams; one would be bludgeoning one of the good guys while the other was mixing it up with the ref until they were got the better of – then it was “I’ll play fair, I”ll be good, he’s killing me, etc, etc,!” In the end all too often, the “bad boys” won by cheating, stomping on,and otherwise “providing a good show” as to how bad they really were.
      It makes for a good show; the losers are we the people! Sad to say, it isn’t necessarily a lack of good tools; it’s our ineptitude in using them, referendum, recall, redress of grievances, and election. With all the tools we have we the people should be vetting everyone from dog catcher to president looking at everything from POB (place of birth) to education, friends, affiliations, military experience, yes, and religion (big mistake lately!) “Tolerance” began with Christians; they’re being “kicked out of the boat” especially by the most recently “tolerated” – Islam! Less and less defines an American as a people; these, try to their history, will never “assimilate”! The only anecdote: learning what their book the Koran/Qur’an really says along with the Hadith, and the Surat! A healthy body only handles so much cancer; Islam is particularly viral and deadly!

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        Islam today gets far more prison converts than any other religion. That tells me a lot about it right there since most of those in prison are violent and most have mental problems. If they are attracted to Islam then they see things there that appeal to them. From what I’ve seen of it, it is far too complicated to suit me. It states something in one place and then counters it in another. About the only thing that stays the same is the hatred for Jews. Peaceful? It depends upon which side you wish to take. Much of it is not and that is the side the fundamentalists prefer to accept. Since it does have so many places it presents both sides as good, nearly every temple has its own version of Islam.

    • Karolyn

      However, calling names and spewing hatred is not gonna influence anybody. If anything, it only strengthens the opposition.

      • DaveH

        Neither is accusing people of being hateful whenever you don’t agree with them.

        • eyeswideopen

          OMG! DaveH, don’t make me do a search on all the hateful names you have called me. You cannot have that attitude you just exhibited above and be so disrespectful as to change their moniker,(name shown in posts) to something else. If I just counted the times you have changed my name when responding to me, it would be in the hundreds. Please get off that high horse and join the rest of us here on the ground.

          • FreedomFighter

            Lucy leftest liar minion comes to mind.

            Laus Deo
            Semper Fi

          • DaveH

            Okay, do the search, Eyes, and show us. After you do, I will search and find some of the many examples of your personal attacks. I won’t have to search long.
            Anyway, what’s that got to do with the comment you responded to with a personal attack?

          • JeffH

            eyes, you are a staight up hypocrit…something that you openly and freely call others all to often.

            I don’t believe anybody has made things more personal(especially with DaveH) than you do. In my eyes, that has become a big part of your “modus operandi”. If you can’t beat ‘em, just make it very personal.

          • eyeswideopen

            JeffH, as usual you missed the point. I never call DaveH anything but DaveH when I make a comment or address him, I show him respect, I don’t try and demean his name in any way, nor do I call you anything except your name. How many times did you call me a troll? Yes, JeffH, hyprocisy will be found out.

          • JeffH

            eyes, I’ve missed nothing and can you remind me of the last time I called you a “troll”? Been a long long long time hasn’t it? I’ll repeat it again so even you can understand. Yes, you are a hypocrit!

          • Jay

            eyes, you’re full of it! I have never read anything by DaveH, either written to you, or anyone else, that would confirm the accusation you just made. You are are simply, a liar!

          • DaveH

            Jay,
            I have called her EyesWideShut sometimes. Oh, the horrors! And I’m sure I’ve traded insults with her, but only after she draws first blood. Meanwhile anybody who wants to see the Personal Attacker in action needs to go no farther then this board.

          • Jay

            I have called her EyesWideShut sometimes.

            Goodness gracious DaveH, how could you? Careful now, Mr. Livingston could be gunning for ya.

    • Dan az

      Hey Angel
      I agree I have never been a bully but I have never just turned a cheek and take the abuse either.So a knee jerk reaction to someone name calling to me is neither right or wrong its simply a reaction to someone that is here to change the subject and disrupt the flow of thought,which is why I’m here.I admit that I’m not an intellectual nor a good speller or writer but what I do have is common sense and learn from other peoples thoughts on the subject that I have not thought much about.What I really hate is paid disruptors purposely here to change the flow of thought on the subject.Some times I get carried away too because of my temper but thats just who I am and make know bones about it.I enjoy it when someone can calmly discredit stupidity,I some times wish I could too.But I am what I am and really try to bite my tonge instead. :)

      • eyeswideopen

        Dan az, loved most of your post, right up to the “paid disputors”. Why do you think people would have to be paid to voice a different opinion? You need to understand that a majority of 52% don’t agree with the repubs/conservatives. They are not mutes. They like you have opinions. When people stop and think about this country and realize that our forfathers didn’t want just white people, with the same religion, or they would have shot everyone different to came ashore. Maybe then they will stop the hatred. If your family came from a “white european country”, you would have not been allowed entry into this country. Only those from the “mother country” would have been allowed entry. Our fore fathers were wise beyond belief, and wanted diversity. You should be glad that someone questions your beliefs and statements.

        • eyeswideopen

          Sorry everybody, just finished a 12hr shift and my mistakes are horrible. I hope you don’t waste your time attacking me for all the above errors. Hope everyone has a great day! Sorry again.

          • Angel Wannabe

            EWO__errors are not a biggie!

      • JeffH

        Brother Dan az, I agree wholeheartedly. It’s all a big learning process, I’ve done it all at one time or another, but it’s where you end up that is important. Like you, I call it as I see it, stay aggressive and post only personal opinions and facts…that’s always been the best ammo to fight back the progressives and their twisted agenda. As for “paid disruptor’s or even volunteer disruptor’s”, all I can say is Mr. Livingston shed some light on that subject a couple months ago…revealing different names with the same messages and the same IP addresses. Not much left to dispute there.

        Don’t let ‘em get to you…let it roll off like water off a ducks back, and keep fighting the good fight…FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • JeffH

          Oh, forgot to say a big thanks to libertytrain for keeping me on the right path…much appreciated.

      • 45caliber

        Dan az:

        I grew up here in the South and when I first got onto these boards namecalling would anger me. It still angers me to be called a liar. I was raised to believe that lying was worse than murder – and most I know were raised that way too. Calling someone a liar here are fighting words – even if they are lying. One reason I attempt to neither lie or accuse others of lying.

        However, I do believe it is fair to call someone an idiot if he makes himself really appear to be one!

        I suppose my biggest thing here is an attempt to educate others. I real a great deal – too much sometimes. One of my hobbies is to learn what happened in history (which includes yesterday) versus what they what you to believe happened. Much of the public history books have been distorted or faked. I also will read almost anything. Even the romance books my wife likes. But as a mechanical engineer, I like science and I like to read of new discoveries.

        While I won’t call myself an expert on history or science, I do try to explain such things to those who don’t know or understand it. So if I get too carried away sometimes, you’ll know why.

    • Kate8

      Angel W – I wholly agree. Free speech should never be compromised.

      I, for one, resent being monitored and told how to act. And who is qualified to decide what is acceptible and what isn’t? We are either free and sovereign or we aren’t.

      I suppose that, since it’s Bob’s blogsite, he gets to make the rules. But, unless someone’s comments are truly over the top, I see no reason to even have such rules. I’m sick of everyone wanting to be a nanny.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Kate8. I am so hearing that!!!!!_I am already a Nanny, a Grandmother and I think I’m old enough, that I don’t need permission to say what’s on my mind!_Well said kate!!! :)

  • Capitalist at Birth

    Bob, I read the many posts of the totalitarian socialist that would give up their liberty to insure that mine are taken as well. Of which Karlolyn is a prime example. I have challenged all of these people to debate me to no avail. They refuse to discuss facts and hsitory and insist on using their talking points to the point of sheer boredom. I used to consider Lincoln one of the greatest Presidents in our history until I learned more about his illegal acts. I once was a Conservative Republican. Now, I am a Capitalist for life.

    • Robert Smith

      From the article: “Ad hominems, expletives, name-calling and non sequiturs do not make for cogent disputations.”

      Shucks Capitalist, don’t you know what “Ad hominems” means?

      It means don’t attack the individual as you have just done.

      BTW, have you seen the links I’ve consistantly posted? I’d bet that I offer more than most, if not all, around here.

      Rob

      • DaveH

        For those who don’t know what an “ad hominem” is:
        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/%20hominem

        • eyeswideopen

          DaveH, very nice. Those that can, shall provide. Hands Clapping!

      • eyeswideopen

        Robert Smith, excellent post!

      • Capitalist at Birth

        I made a staement of fact, and did not attack anyone. When I attack, you will know what an attack really is.

      • Kate8

        Robert Smith – Your posts have been some of the most offensive on this site, but I will stand by your right to be a jerk if that is how you want to come across.

        I simply exercise my right not to read what you write. That way, you get to be a jerk and I don’t have to be irritated by it.

      • Al Sieber

        Well Robert, I’m not either Dem., or Repub., I hate both parties, because they are corrupt, I will only for vote who will represented us as a Constitutional Republic, and it’s pretty slim pickings.

    • 45caliber

      I believe that many, Karolyn included, are simply naive. They assume something and all their idealogical beliefs follow. The one thing they assume the most is that it is possible to have a utopia where everyone is peaceful and everyone has everything they could possibly desire. That is one reason that I will attempt to educate some of them. As I told Karolyn one time, from what she says, I would consider her a 16 year old who hasn’t yet been forced to face life as it really is.

      Their utopia is posible ONLY if everyone has the same desires, likes, and dislikes that they do. And most of us do not. I seriously doubt if ANY two people can have the same since we are all different. And many of them seem determined to have that utopia to the point of being willing to eliminate all those who disagree with them. Yet none of them will accept that the utopia they feel they deserve is hopeless even as they make more decisions based on it.

      Some are here for evil purposes – and like you I believe some are paid to be here to stir up trouble. I don’t accuse many of it but it has been interesting to see several that I have accused have suddenly vanished shortly after. I believe they are trying to get someone to say or do something illegal so they can charge and arrest that person.

      I am a conservative – but I am NOT Republican. In fact, I’m still a registered Democart but haven’t voted that way for about two score years. I vote for whomever I feel might do the best job. That normally is NOT the Democrats since they seem more concerned with buying votes than doing what is best for our country. I believe everyone should have as much freedom to do as they like – as long as they give everyone else, including me, the same opportunity. (There are only two ways to achieve true freedom – you grant everyone else all the freedom that can be on the condition that they do the same OR you take all the freedom for yourself and give them nothing.) And I believe that a small government is the safest government as a result.

      • Jana

        45caliber,
        I agree with you. this was a very good post. I also think of karolyn as innocent and sometimes misguided.

        There are some posters that aren’t worthy of a reply (most of the time) nor are they worthy of even reading most of the time.

        I have gone to other blogs and have seen such bad language and bad behavior and have just not bothered with them.

        Most of the people on this blog are nice decent people (even some of the lefties) :) , and yes we get very passionate over our beliefs. I agree with Kate8 and Angel that free speech should never be compromised, but it doesn’t have to get dirty either.

        • Kate8

          Jana – You are right. I’ve been shocked by some of the posters on some other blogs. Real low-life stuff. I wouldn’t want to see that kind of downright crudeness and rudeness here. I’d leave, just as I won’t post on such sites.

          The thing is, I just haven’t seen that here. As you said, by far most of the posters here are decent folks, and I don’t think we’d tolerate that kind of thing. If someone gets over the top, I just skip their postings, and I think it’s fine to ban them from posting.

          But who decides what’s over the top? i41 was mild compared to some stuff I’ve seen on other sites. There’s tastelessness, and then there’s vulgarity and/or downright nastiness, which I do consider over the top. But that’s just me.

      • Thinking About

        Your post can apply in both directions. Utopia is one’s own thoughts of what would be perfect and each can think their way best and does not make the right or wrong way. How would you propose your opposites educate you?

  • Jennie

    Thank you, Bob for your columns, intelligence and civility. Unfortunately it seems there are too many people who who prefer to be crass and end up showcasing their vitriol and ignorance. Too bad they cannot enter into civil discourse . . . Keep the faith!!

  • Peter

    Bob, you are so right about the political landscape, because no political party has given two nickels about the people of America for many years. The only thing they care about is gaining and remaining in power for as long as it takes. Look at the Kennedy’s, then look at the Bush clan and anyone in-between you’d like to mention. Different parties and different moral standings, but the same passion to stay in power at all costs. To heck with the country and the people, they’re just cannon fodder for the short term solution to the problem of remaining one step ahead in the opinion polls. That’s exactly why nobody who actually gives a damn about the USA will ever be able to attain any reasonable position of power. Their heart is not in the (wrong) place. It does not auger well for the future of the USA or the planet, because at ground level, there are millions of people trying to do their own small bit for their local communities and communities abroad who need help, but try and get a politician to truly become involved in anything that matters? Not unless there’s a vote in it buddy! I’m sure there will be some people who read this who can give examples of people who truly serve, but I’ll guarantee none of those folks ever have the political testosterone to gain high office, and if they do, they probably have sold or will soon sell their souls to political expediency. How do I know this? I’ve tried to enter politics, but made the ‘mistake’ of thinking reasoned debate could get me where I wanted to be! Silly me! I’ve seen the stinking beast from the inside, and it is rotten to the core. Here endeth the lesson.

    • JimRed

      “The only thing they care about is gaining and remaining in power…”

      That is precisely why the power factor must be removed from public service. The public “servants” have morphed into masters; that is not acceptable!

      Term limits will help; get them out before they can establish fiefdoms or networks of corruption. Eliminate pensions other than social security and whatever else they choose to pay for, like the rest of us. Make it mandatory that any law or regulation affecting the populace apply to Congress and all elected/appointed officials.

      I suggest a maximum of two 3 year terms in the House, two 5 year terms in the Senate, then back to civilian life to live under the laws they’ve passed. The states should do the same.

      Remember that old song, “I can dream, can’t I?”

      • Stephan F.

        To Peter & JimRed:

        Outstanding!

      • 45caliber

        One of the real problems with government now is that the “public servants” are not just politicians that we elect. Too many, like those in the EPA or OSHA or many of the other agencies that were set up to help us, have become carreer buerocrats that hold office despite which party is in power and they want to insure they they remain in office drawing their big paychecks. One way they can remain in power is to hire more people – hence the fast growth of big government. Until we can get rid of them (and they have rules and regulations – not laws – that do much to prevent that) we cannot really reduce government.

    • DaveH

      No political party, Peter?
      There is one political party that cares about our freedom — The Libertarian Party (the Principled Party).

  • http://aol.com sean murrey ILLInio

    What civil discourse i didnt know we had any with all of this name calling.

  • Ret

    it’s not just verbal, but physical as well. I’m semi-retired and have a bit of difficulty climbing stairs and use the handrail. On more than one occasion I’ve almost been knocked over, because I don’t move fast enough. Along with the physical shoving comes the verbal attack and name calling. Civility has gone down the drain along with the value of the dollar, and the escalation of ‘me first’ and ‘you owe me’ mentality. Good post.

    • 45caliber

      I agree. You are at fault because you didn’t step aside to let them pass. Or you disagree with them about some small matter. They are so important that you should KNOW to give them what they want the moment they want it. And they can’t understand why you don’t recognize that and act on it immediately. We’ve got a number of criminals in prison (some on death row) simply for this reason. Texas has one there now that shot a woman over her car. His defense in court? “I had to shoot her. She wouldn’t give me her car keys when I asked for them.” I can remember when officials assured us that all the troubles with our children was due to them having a poor self-esteeme. Actually, I think it is the other way around.

      • Jana

        That also occurs on the freeway. You can see so very quickly the ones who are so self absorbed that they will endanger their lives and the lives of others just to get one or two car lengths ahead.

        I have been going in a store and opened the door to have a group of teen aged boys and two adults push their way past me to get out while I am holding the door. Never mind that I am holding the IN door, not the EXIT side.

  • Altaica

    Bob,
    I am an agreement with your assessment. It seems that the art of debate is dying throughout our country. I’m new here, and just getting my way around, but I’ve never been afraid to voice my opinions. I want to enjoy those first amendment rights while I can, but there is no reason for petty schoolyard name calling and mudslinging. I’m here to learn and hopefully contribute. I’m all for constructive criticism, but the moment the insults come out I find that the value of that person’s words are degraded in my eyes.

    • JimRed

      It is difficult to debate when the other side is lying, knows it is lying, intends to keep lying and doesn’t care if you know it is lying.

      A perfect example is calling a decrease in the rate of increase of funding to a program a CUT. Nothing’s been cut; it’s just growing more slowly. But the left’s enablers in the media will portray it as a draconian assault on (victim group(s) of your choice).

  • Dave

    Bob – I’m old enough to remember the inclusion of Biblical phrases, consideration of the truth and what should pass as right and wrong along with civility and consideration of the possibility that those opposing my view still had the welfare of my country in mind.
    Credit the “dumbing down” of our educational system, the influx of socialism, the jettisoning of Biblical values and principles (many of the Southern leaders were avowed Christians fighting for their state and individual rights), and the fatigue in being “exceptional” and unique in our world. More and more of us rely on “Wiki-” this and that which are made up by Joe “know-nothing” versus hard copies of factual dictionaries, histories and other material not redacted and revised by revisionists.
    Relative to this demise of our democracy is the influx of those wanting life their way from definitions to reality, building sand castles without foundations and hope-so’s without work, etc.
    We knew this country needed work; we didn’t expect a total lacquer job on top labeled “something for nothing” spun by a Muslim who accurately says he’s doing a “good job”; for Islam and not for a Christian America!
    Read this man rightly in relation to his Islamic roots and he conforms to a Good Muslim, lies and all!

    • bruce

      Dave,

      I agree. More specifically, the education system and lack of principles are the root. I have kids in schools that do NOT teach the fouding principles of America, nor much of anything about the founders themselves. The extent of history taught in public schools today is about the civil rights movement of the sixties. Check it and see for yourself in your own community! Imagine skipping Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and the revolution to focus on the 60′s??? Those “administrators” of our education system should be fired with NO PENSION if they do not oversee adequate education of the kids. The problem would be solved then, I’ll bet!

      • 45caliber

        bruce:

        That is one reason I urge people to read and study history. I’ve always been convinced that when a politician urges us to “look to the future” that he’s actually trying to keep you from realizing they are making some mistake again – usually for the tenth time or more. We had a recent disagreement in Texas over our history books. The Conservatives sort of won in that they did give up some things that needed to remain but they did insist that the history books continue to teach something about our founding fathers. The libs wanted to discard all of that in favor of civil rights – to the extent of teaching the kids important stuff like who invented the fireman’s hat vs. who wrote the Constitution. And then the media tried to make it appear that the Conservatives were the ones trying to rewrite the history books.

        • Karolyn

          Speaking of history, I’m taking Aamerican History 101 this semester and can’t wait to see what is in the book! After all I’ve heard here, it should be very interesting.

          • Jay

            Or very misleading!

          • Jana

            Karolyn.
            Watch out, because everything you read isn’t going to be true. A lot of our history has been rewritten.

          • Karolyn

            That’s what will be interesting to see.

  • Rob W.

    Bob, this is off subject, but something I felt I needed to say. I’ve been shuffling along on this mortal coil for 70+ years so I’ve seen things and persons I’ve liked and quite a few I didn’t like. I believe, perhaps naively, that most people enter politics, at virtually every level, with high principles and good ideas
    interleaved with a greater number of not so good ideas. But promises cost nothing and once an individual announces, everything
    is thrown out, bathwater and baby. It costs money, probably more than the average person (discounting Donald Trump) has and they must rely on donations. Five and ten dollar donations help and are usually offered without strings. This can’t be said for
    individual/corporate donations of multiple thousands of dollars. I apologize for my cynicism, but a multiple thousand dollar
    donation to an individual’s campaign can’t help but undermine the highest of principles. As a nation, we love to barter, whether
    its at your local garage sale or for your votes and I don’t see attitudes changing in the near term but I believe term limits
    will help.

    • eyeswideopen

      Rob W., you are correct. Take the money out of politics. Have the states control the election monies. Everyone gets the same amount to spend. Turn in receipts and that is end of lobbyists getting a paid employee lying about representing us. It is easy to fix. Control the money!

    • 45caliber

      Rob W. I agree. At one time there was a law passed that forbid any politician to accept any money greater than $100 from any individual for that very reason. But then BOTH parties got involved and now there are PACs everywhere that can accept any amount of money they wish and then spend it on any politician they want without question. The unions simply provide a few million dollars to each they support along with a computer printout of names of their members – who do not always agree with the union’s giving. We need a better way to enforce this.

  • http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com Barry Harmon

    Bob,

    It’s a sad commentary on the state of the nation that you had to write this column, and that you probably should post it every few months, just to remind some readers of the propoer decorum for responding.

    Unfortunately, what you have discussed is merely one part of the general coarsening of life in this country in these times. I wish this weren’t true, but it is. Your column is a reminder that there *is* a better way to discuss and argue.

    • Angel Wannabe

      Barry, does your “better way to discuss and argue”, include all walks of life?”__I suppose I was wrong when I flipped out on an arrogant Ambulance Driver, for yelling at me because of his having to pick up my dying Father and take him to the hospital, as I had no oxygen to keep him from gasping for air. He asked “why I called for a pick up if he’s dying?” Should have I been more compassionate to the driver, should I have not turned him in, which incidently I did!!????__Where do you PC’ERS draw the line???_ I never took anything lying down and ain’t about to start now, just because someone doesn’t like how I say things!

      • eyeswideopen

        Angel Wannabe, first let me say, I am sorry you had to go throught that situation. No one is critizing what you are saying, but how you are saying it. There is no need to be mean and call people names, even if you (like me) are no educated author. The main point, is we are all Americans, let’s be nice to each other and not schoolyard bullies. You are probably more of an Angel than you know!

        • Angel Wannabe

          Thanks eyes it was 8 years aga.__

          I get it ok!__People aren’t nice anymore because they are afraid!__example: a friend ours, has just been served papers for a “Hate Crime”that she says, she has no idea where it came from or why, as there has been no altercation with anyone. People jump to conclusions today over everything today. Everything else we do is controlled, if we don’t control ourselves. All Im sayin suppressing speech, eventually breeds complacency & tolerance. With those both in place, nothing changes good or bad,… we just are.

          • eyeswideopen

            Angel, agree 100%. Hands clapping!

        • 45caliber

          eyes:

          When I went into the army, I NEVER used any curse words. My Mother would have killed me if I had tried.

          However, I soon realized that there are a number of people in the world who simply will ignore you unless you do yell at them in foul language. Why, I don’t know. Luckily, there are fewer in civilian life than in the military but it is a problem. It is as if you must shock them before they will even consider listening to what you might have to say. Those people, luckily, I can now for the most part ignore.

  • http://AOL LIsa

    Bob,

    • Jonathan

      I see you are at a loss for words. Let me supply some for you.

      “Great article!” “I agree whole-heartedly!” “Wish everyone would take this to heart.”

      Glad to be of service.

  • Jimmy Joe

    Thanks,enjoyed and agree for the most part.The elite class,in the republican party,and the democrat party,are exactly what former president gerald ford said.That i use his quote alot!Which is,there are two kind of people,and politicians.(1)Is all about their own “EYE ON THE PRIZE”(2)Is all about duty to,and love of country!Social liberals in all political stripes,have made no bones.They are all about their own eye on the prize,be damned the decline to our country,as a result.As it is social liberal issues that is destroying,and bankrupting our nation.The same made it clear that anyone that believes in a higher power or purpose,other than themselves will be destoyed,by the social liberals in all political stripes.Why?Because the same believe their is no higher power,or purpose other than themselves.The same said they are about women,and minority rights,yet give them privilage,and exempt from responsibility status.Claim they are the brightest among us,yet the same are treated as a victim class by all political stripes.Except again by social constitutional conservatives that are consistant with ben franklin’s quote!We’ve but these rights which is life,liberty,and the pursuit of happiness.That all others must learn to catch up!but when a true independent self-reliant women,that has proven her abilities.(SARA PALIN)Both parties throw her under the bus,so not to offend the government protected class women.You can’t be,and say how smart you are when it takes government,privilage,and society to prop you up un challenged,and treat you as a victim!The elite made it clear in the republican primary,when the republican elite sought,and collaborated with the democrat party to destroy constitutional conservatives that would vote the constitution straight down the line on every vote.ot about a nation of laws,natures laws,and natures god.They are all about trafficking,sex,drug,and the human rights,lives,property,opportunities,and liberties of americans,in exchange for money,votes,and power,for themselves.God have mercy on these predators,on humanity,The same elite only cared about losing the election,and promoted(excuse the name calling but is true)Eye on the prize,anti-constitution candidates.Believing they could get the black panther,C.A.I.R.,muslim brotherhood,larasa,che’rivera,jerry springer,maury povich,guest,and audience,mao-se tung,fidel castro.hugo chavez,hamas,hezbollah,charlie manson,timothy leary,btk,jeffrey dahmer,and margaret sanger/casey anthony vote!!!

    • eddie47d

      Great article Bob Livingston yet Jimmy Joe proves that nothing will change for he reached into the trash barrell right off the bat.He brought up some ugly names as if to align them on one side as if it were a true representation.Then excusing the other side and their foibles.

      • JimRed

        Gerald Ford, Ben Franklin, Sarah Palin, ugly names?

        Oh, I see…you meant the Black Panther, C.A.I.R., Muslim Brotherhood, LaRaza et als. reference.

        With all due respect, it is difficult to envision any of those entities or individuals supporting Conservative Constitutionalists; but there is little question about their proclivity to support progressive/Marxist policies.

        • eddie47d

          I was referring to Manson who aligned himself more with race wars and Nazism and also Dahmer who didn’t have any political persuasion but had a terrible mental disease. While Dahmer was chomping on someones body part I don’t think he was worried about who was going to get elected. His name shouldn’t even have been brought up.

  • bob wire

    It’s always been a battle of words for the peoples minds with parlor tricks unending. Yellow journalism has been employed for many ,many years now and became part of the political landscape. A sales job to offer a hype. The new flavor of the day. We are all victims of it one way or another, willing or otherwise.

    To sell “feature” where it be, see through windows, rotating tires or simply “notions of equitable fairness”.

    example ; what’s fair about 2% of Americans having to contribute and shoulder 80% of the federal tax burden?

    That’s not fair! ~ is it? ~ No it’s not.

    But neither is a system that makes it possible that they can.

    So how did we get to this great disparity? How are we to ever address such a great disparity? Don’t try to tell me that they “worked” for it and deserve these vast holding of wealth. Like a fisherman, they have created a huge net and snared it ~anyway that they can, ~ with few game wardens in sight and less regulation and enforcement since the 30′s.

    It seems that we prefer to ignore this, accepting some notion the system we employ to day is equitable and fair. That privatized profits and public losses are somehow acceptable. That welfare of the wealthy is good while welfare for the poor is bad???? It make them lazy! ~ The same applies to the wealthy, they gotten so lazy with the past 30 year history of huge gains, they really don’t want to work anymore, not for “fair profits” anyway. Today , they must be incited with huge return or they are just not interested. The world is their oyster, they can put up and go somewhere else with all their ill gotten gains.

    That predatory lending is good and anyone that falls prey is fair game and shares the greats burden for failure?

    By Smoke and mirrors , Chieftain and Witch Doctor, Government and Church we are lead with a war of words and fight for subservient dominion, a willing actor.

    Someday, ` this will be our undoing.

    • Robert Smith

      Bob asks: “example ; what’s fair about 2% of Americans having to contribute and shoulder 80% of the federal tax burden?”

      What’s fair is that they can afford it as they take advantage of our national defense, education, and infrastcture.

      The other fact is that much of the income for that 2% is from moving paper around and NOT producing any product. Just because they can acquire money through Wall Street and other gambling doesn’t mean they are entitled to all of it.

      Rob

      • http://ByGeorge By George

        Just who are you, Robert, to say who is or who is not entitled to their earnings? What makes you an expert? What gives you any right to complain about anyone risking their capital and possible failure, as well as success, on investment ventures? You sound like you are a taker a member of the moocher, looter and non-producer class that so infects our society, including its political leadership. America is a Capitalist society, at least until the current administration gets finished with it, then who will you have to complain about. Get a job Robert Smith and contribute. You might learn something.

        • eddie47d

          Well George not all Capitalists earn their money fair and square. Dishonesty has been well publicized on some of our corporate giants and a few individuals also. The Capitalists were exploitative before the early 50′s and now they are back at it again.When their goal,is to bless America,it’s workers and an honest deal then you can take back your bragging rights. It is a tougher worldwide market out there and you would think some of these corporates would humble themselves instead of taking so much.

          • Jeep

            “It is a tougher worldwide market out there and you would think some of these corporates would humble themselves instead of taking so much.” You’re right eddie. And, since most of those terrible corporations will not humble themselves, let’s do it for them. Grab your baseball bats, I’ll get some rocks, let’s find some molotov cocktails and we will humble them. Or, wwe could get the govt to “punish” them! Let’s sic the IRS on ‘em. That’ll humble ‘em, but good!

          • eddie47d

            Jeep’s “on fire” today but I don’t think I will be joining him and believe there is a better way. Educating the public takes a lot longer but is far more rewarding. There may be little change in my lifetime but the best way to make people accountable is to remain civil ourselves.

          • Capitalist at Birth

            Who says Crony Corporatism is Cpatialism? You are not informed. Sorry, that means you are ignorant. Not name calling, simply a starement of tact. We have been on this road since 1861. It will lead to misery and poverty.

          • Jeep

            “Educating the public takes a lot longer but is far more rewarding.” I’ve seen left wing “education” efforts. In every communist take over the “rich” were always easy to malign and were the first to go. After all, they are an easy target for the uneducated and there is the added benefit that thier money can help fund the revolution for a while. Why would you insist on “educating” American’s that the rich “can afford it” (read as, they must pay for me and my wants). Why not educate the uneducated public on, oh, things like, business administration, engineering, education, et al. You know, eddie, teach the public to be productive citizens who do not rely on govt handouts taken from the “rich”. Just a thought…

          • Jay

            GOOD ONE Jeep, way to nail that boy to the wall!!! He deserved it!

          • eddie47d

            All Jeep did was put words in my mouth that I never said. He didn’t nail anything.

      • bruce

        They’re not entitled to the money they make through their own efforts and risk-taking? Whose money is it? Your assertion is that “the community” has a right to their money? Better think about that. Am I entitled to yours? What else of yours am I entitled to, regardless of the fact you earned it?

        • eyeswideopen

          bruce, yep, you are correct. When our forefathers made the first Article of the Constitution, giving the Congress the right to levy taxes, yours became mine, and mine became yours. The first school in this country charged the rich and gave free admission to the poor. What does that tell you about our history?

          • eyeswideopen

            Forgot to explain that they knew we needed an educated population in order to compete in the world economy. Now efforts are underway to dumb down the middle class by taking any funding. Conservatives think our school system is failing now and the young are not informed, why then do you want less teachers and less exposure to ideas for your children? Why do you want to dumb down the population?

        • Thinking About

          Does the name Bernie Madoff mean anything to you. He ran a big ponzi scheme. Didn’t earn theoney but spent it. How does Congress members earn the big bucks from lobby groups when they are supposed to be working for people in their districts. How does farms “earn” tax dollars? This is to name a few, try to think of others yourself.

      • Jeep

        Bob, you are a prime example of why there can be no discussion. You have already decided that there are those who MUST contribute. “What’s fair is that they can afford it as they take advantage of our national defense, education, and infrastcture.” What kind of debate is there when you have already made yourself judge, jury and executioner?

      • bob wire

        I think Robert brings forward some reality that you would prefer to hide from. Who are you to say that they “do” deserve such huge gains?

        What makes you think Robert doesn’t have a job? What did he say to suggest that?

        This predisposition that you harbor is impart the battle front on the war of ideas we fight today. ~ Could I assume that you enjoy gambling and consider it as a source of potential “earning”?

        That 200 American families now own and control 60 % of Americas wealth should raise some eyebrow of concern as to who earned what and how, and offer some credence to what Robert offers us this morning. That they have achieved this lofty position in only the last 30 years, you wish to overlook and ignore? I’d call such a person a “chump”.

        Your position on this activity reeks of a person that takes pleasure in hedging and side betting. Robert and I fail to view such activities as meaningful work and more in line with sports activities.

        I’ve no time or interest in sports or games of “chance”, the play of grown men with too much spare time on their hands.

        If you do, fine ! But allow me be direct, ~ it’s just a game that some people play and “should be” disconnected from matters of state. This is the other battle front we fight.

        ~and I work Robert ~and plan to not stop until the pain of movement stops me from getting out of bed.

        • Jeep

          “That 200 American families now own and control 60 % of Americas wealth should raise some eyebrow of concern as to who earned what and how, and offer some credence to what Robert offers us this morning. That they have achieved this lofty position in only the last 30 years, you wish to overlook and ignore? I’d call such a person a “chump”.”

          Well, gosh bob, I certainly would not want to be a “chump”. Let’s go get the pitch forks and torches! We should go on up to the castle and take what those 200 families have! Are you with me? Or, we could send the IRS, the FBI or other govt agency and do it “legally”.

          • bob wire

            That would be more in line with your reaction to things out of your control Jeep.

            Thanks for offer us your choice of options to react but I’d rather address matters in a public forum for all to see.

          • Jana

            wow bw,
            Talk about taking things out of context.

          • Jeep

            bob, so your only response is that you’d rather “talk” about it, with no action? Wow, “talk about” a losing strategy. So, what I hear you saying is that you would rather stir the pot with rhetoric until someone else decides to take action in your place. Hmmm… I say, if you are proud of sticking it to the rich, then by all means, you should shout it from the mountain tops, vote in your favorite pimp and the let the taxing begin. At least be proud of what you are.

      • DaveH

        If the owners of that money, who acquired it through voluntary transactions, aren’t entitled to that money, then why would the people who did nothing to earn it be entitled to that money, Robert?
        This is a good example of the immoral depths that our society has sunk to. There are a large class of people (perhaps the majority) who now think that theft of other peoples’ money is okay if they hire somebody else to perform that theft. That “somebody else” includes those in Government. Voting to take somebody else’s money is no different than a gang member going along with the leader’s choice to steal from people. It’s just a larger gang (much larger).

        For those people who want to improve:
        http://mises.org/daily/4125

        • eyeswideopen

          DaveH, because that is the way our founding fathers wanted it when they created the first Article of the Constitution, giving Congress the right to levy taxes. That meant what was yours became mine, and what was mine became yours. Forced community, taking care of the “general welfare” of the country. That my friend was forced socialism for the general welfare. If they had wanted a country with a national religion, I am sure they would have been smart enough to insert it in the Constitution. They also didn’t have an immigration policy to keep certain religious parties, race conditions, nationality codes, political parties, out of the country. They understood that the larger we got, the more the general population would need a balance of power to keep them safe from corporations and the Elite. They warned us more than once, we however have taken the path protecting the wealthy and killing the middle class. You seem to proclaim that you are a Libertarian, and you obviously hate the first article of the Constitution, so how can you proclaim to love this country and honor the Constitution? You don’t believe in the “General Welfare” concept that was mentioned in the Constitution. You are all for “What can I get, and to hell with the rest of them” mentality. Kinda like the repubs who want everything their way and to hell with the 52% who didn’t vote a repub into office. Your hero, Ayn Rand, ended up receiving Medicare and SS disabilty from her government that she so hated. Hyprocrisy is always found out.

          • DaveH

            You just can’t help yourself, can you? Another of your many personal attacks.
            Here is Article 1 of the Constitution as our Founders wrote it:
            http://www.cato.org/constitution/article1_en.html

            “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.”

            In other words, each free person was essentially charged the same amount to fund the Federal Government.
            That would be great. I could live with that.

            You get that, Eyes? I’ve pointed this out to you before but you conveniently cast those facts aside.

          • DaveH

            And what has receiving medicare and social security disability got to do with hypocrisy?
            Are you saying that only the people who approve the Social Security ripoff should get the benefits which they pay for?
            If those who pay into the system and receive benefits but try to save others from the ripoff are hypocrites, then what kind of vile name should those of you be called who support such theft?
            What a neat little package the Liberals try to present. First they force us into their immoral ineffective schemes, then if we try to make things right, they call us names.

          • eyeswideopen

            DaveH.

            http://www.tax-freedom.com/EarlyHistory.htm

            Taxes is what they wanted, taxes is what they got!
            You basically haven’t like this country since it’s inception.

          • JeffH

            DaveH, “sighing”…!

          • eyeswideopen

            DaveH, I always suspected that you hated America, when did that happen? You stated that you got a scholarship (tax payers funded)did you then pay back the government tax payers, after you decided that you didn’t like taxes? How did you escape the draft? Did your children get scholarships, or did you dig into your piggle bank and pay a full ride and just fell that you shouldn’t take anything from that horrible government that you hate so much? No assistant of help for any government programs to help college funds. Did where did your kids go to school?

          • DaveH

            Eyes,
            You lie, Eyes! I have never stated that I got a scholarship of any kind.
            And look, folks, how the troll is trolling for personal information, so that she can twist and turn it in the future to disparage me in her usually weak ways. Seek Help, Eyes.
            By the way, a hypocrite is a person who takes actions that he/she has admonished others not to take. For Ayn Rand to take Social Security or any other Government aid would not make her a hypocrite. She would only be a hypocrite if she railed against others for taking the help.
            There’s a big difference between a person who votes to take other peoples’ money, and a person who passively receives the benefits that were promised for the taking of his/her money.

          • JeffH

            DaveH, again, making things personal has always been eyes “modus operandi” from the very beginning. I’ve made attempts to return the favor but quickly found myself lowering my own moral standards. Some move past it, others can’t. eyes can’t! We’ve both endured the hypocricy, lies and personal attacks. That is why one must decide what to share and with whom to share it with on a public forum. There are several in here with very poor memories that use the same devious methods…hypocrits all.

            Fortunately, the good people in here outnumber the bad intentioned.

          • bob wire

            “You basically haven’t like this country since it’s inception.”

            That’s a rather bold indictment coming from even you Dave.

            To cherry pick points of contention and make such wild claims is beneath you.

            I’m not too preachy keen on some points of our past history either yet I wore the uniform and places some of my conviction on hold , deferring to a higher sense of purpose. (thou it galled me so)

            Would you claim that I too do not like this country?

            It’s not a requirement to be baptized in a single common “ism” to be a supporter.

            Why offer unworthy opposition when it’s just as easy to offer “worthy opposition”?

          • Jana

            Again bw,
            Taking something out of context. You are on a roll today.

          • DaveH

            That’s so funny, Bob Wire. Now after I enlighten you to the fact that Eyes is the one who made that statement, does your rebuttal still stand against Eyes, or since she is one of your own will you just retract your comment?

          • bob wire

            oh really? ~ My bad, ~ I didn’t think it sounded like anything you would say. ~ My apologies Dave. ~ It was a big day,~ a very “toasty” day and I was in and out and constantly on the phone. Texas is on fire today. ~ not having the time to follow the thread as I should, I wrongly faulted you.

            Oh! and I like what you said about peoples “earning”, good rebuttal material. Not that I agreed with you but your angle was worth serious consideration and development, it had the kind of truth to it that rings like a bell.

            You have my sincere apology, for incoming friendly fire. it happens.

            and Jana , it’s best to not attempt to follow me. It will just get you lost somewhere in LA LA Land.

            So what about today’s results? They (the left and right) are both spinning it as a Tea party win! I think that they are pandering. ~ When they do that, I become suspicious.

            Bottom line, I do think “O” lost this round. His first clear loss as far as I’m concerned. ~It will tax his effectiveness for reelection by sucking the air out of the room on the stump and the run up.

            A lot of people are not very happy tonight,~ much theater. While I’m pleased with the results, it’s a step. The back end of the deal is what’s most important now, the setup and follow through.

            Much like life, war or chess, politics is all about positional play. The most obvious is usually just bait and a sharp point of a hook and why I’m not biting all this smaller government talk. They are saying “government” one minute and “spending” the next like the two are impossible to disconnect. Spending is a selection process, if they don’t spend it on one item they will spend it on another.

            That federal taxes today in relation to the GDP are low as they have ever been and I’m still have a hard time paying them, something is badly wrong. I project going in the hole with a 9 to 12 thousand dollar tax burden for 2011. I’m not expecting any relief.

          • Jana

            EWWWW, big bad bob w thinks he is above reproach. Well Mr. poor pathetic, I am not afraid of you.

          • Jana

            And, by your responses YOU were the one in LA LA LAND!

      • 45caliber

        Rob:

        You remind me of a story I saw in an English newspaper a few months ago. A man has invented a type of plastic he says will resist nuclear fire. (I won’t argue whether he did or not despite the stuff he provides as evidence.) But every time he tries to see about selling it, he runs into companies, people, and governments who want an ‘exclusive’ right to it. They are willing to buy that right but only want to offer about a year’s pay for it – while they get rich off it. Is this one of your “paper pushers” who don’t deserve the money they have earned? The one who invented the item or the one who plans to steal it for peanuts so he can get rich? Unfortunately, most of those work for the government you support.

  • Alcam

    I guess they have been learning from the Australian Federal Parliament, where “debate” is all about name calling for election purposes. I guess they are proving beyond doubt that “ignorance is bliss”. If you know nothing about the subject you can say whatever you think will make you “famous”.

    As the old mariners used to say : “in a storm the garbage rises to the surface”. It appears that the only possible conclusion is that most countries today are being “governed” ( sorry for using that term), by the garbage. We all seem to have moved to a lunatic asylum managed by the most seriously impaired inmates.

    • 45caliber

      I sometimes wonder if we wouldn’t have a much better politicial system if we legallized dueling again – at least for politicians. The bad ones would find another carreer and the good ones would be more willing to listen to the people.

      • bob wire

        I’m of the opinion dueling would surly slow down the loose tongues. Just a good old fashion a$$ whipping would work as well. I’d be all for it if you could keep the lawyers out of the mix.

        It’s getting to the point something needs to give way and let the sun shine in.

        I’ve got a link I’d like to offer you ~ let me see if I can find it.

        hmm? don’t know if that will work? looks funny ~ I try again if it doesn’t work.

        • bob wire

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT789x9a6Mo&feature=player_embedded

          words are precious, valuable, we should select them with greater care. They can make life easy or make life hard

          • Karolyn

            bob – Great video! Makes one want to think before speaking – or writing!

          • Jana

            Too bad bob w doesn’t follow his own advice.

          • Jay

            As usual, vague and convoluted!

  • http://AOL LIsa

    Bob,
    Unfortunately you are correct. We are willing to let someone else think for us, and tell us what to do, because it makes our life easier. If we are not willing to discover the truth and pay attention to what is going on then we deserve what is happening. We have become a society of group thinkers, and not free thinkers. Until we take control of our lives and start reading and thinking, things will only get worse. I have tried to make sure my children know this and don’t just follow the herd. They will be the ones to pay for all these mistakes.

    • Robert Smith

      Lisa says: “We have become a society of group thinkers, and not free thinkers.”

      Believe! You shall see…

      I want hard evidence for stuff, not to be told I don’t have enough faith.

      Rob

    • 45caliber

      Lisa:

      I agree. It is much easier to not think. The only problem is that those willing to think for us believe it is their right to have everything they can even dream of wanting and that we should pay for it.

  • Wayne Holleman

    Hooray! Bob you certainly have my vote. Rarely do I find anyone with whom I agree 100% of the time. But I always find a well reasoned argument intellectually stimulating even when I disagree. I am a proud retired military E-9 and a Vietnam veteran. Like you I have noted that comments from “SMSgt Z retired Nam 68” seem to be lacking in intellectual stimulation. I think this individual might want to look in the mirror and think very carefully before he calls anyone “a mouth breather”.

    Guardian9

  • Robert A Hirschmann

    I agree with you wholeheartedly Bob. Name calling is not the answer. But something has been bothering me for a long time. Didn’t every president, congressman and senator swear TO DEFEND AND UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION? If that is true, why can’t Obama be impeached for what he is doing to destroy America and the American dream? He bypassed congress to declare war, he is trying to nullify the second amendment, he is destroying our freedom of religion among other things. He ignores the will of the people so who exactly does he stand for? I sure would like some answers to these questions. Thanks for listening. -Bob Hirschmann-

    • bob wire

      Your freedom to worship is not under attack Sir., only your freedom to force it onto others.

      And high crimes and treason is the case you would have to make for any impeachment proceedings, ~and that is quite simple, not there “either”.

      Your post shows us just how effective yellow journalism can be and the very topic of Mr. Livingston’s thread topic post.

      • Angel Wannabe

        bob wire, would your care to tell us exactly how is it we shove our religion down everyone else’s throats?_ Is it, a Cross perhaps in a Public Square in Memory of where 3000+ people were killed?__A cross on a Mountain Top, to commemorate fallen Soldiers?_-A bible sitting on the night stand in a motel room?__ Will it be enough when all religion is out of sight completely?__Whatever happened to minding ones own business?

        • bob wire

          Angel, I said, you don’t have the right to force your faith on others.

          No more, no less ~ and this goes for everyone equally.

          • DaveH

            Please explain that one to me, Bob. As an atheist, I don’t recall anybody ever “forcing” their religion on me. I do recall many incidents though of Government interfering (force) with other peoples’ religious choices.

          • Robert A Hirschmann

            How about the Muslims allowed to pray in the streets and us Christians not allowed to mention Jesus Christ in public? Isn’t that repressing religion? We cannot pray in schools anymore and they want to take “In God We Trust” off all out money and public buildings. What happened to freedom of religion?

          • bob wire

            ” so have I Dave, so have I, ~ and most often, wasn’t within the spirit of Constitutional wording but Christian simple enjoying their liberties while ignoring yours. If you don’t approve you are free to dismiss yourself.

            While You and I are not forced or solicited, we are “expected” to show tolerance for those that might flaunt or pray too loudly in professing their faith. To often held hostage by civility ~ a “captive audience”, to witness words and things you “might take exception” to if anyone offered the curiosity to ask.

            It kinda make me want to, ~ race out and get their “own” snake, sometimes.

            I wouldn’t call myself an atheist but I have little need in a God that required me to race to “its” defense. I have no interest in trying to defend and respect your sentiments on the matter more then I would “most” that fly a Christian banner Dave.

            If self proclaimed Christians can’t get their mind around this separation, the Muslim American’s will have a good argument as they ask for and expect these same liberties Christians flaunt and think nothing of it.

            Faith issues should not be a “public matter” ~ we “accept” the notion that you wasn’t raised by wolves and come forward with some degree of education and a sense of social civility. ~ To proclaim the source and origin of your education is not truly necessary.

            “Hi! I’m a Christian!” is a real “no starter” for most people.

            This is not necessary, it’s over the top, wasted words. Are they fearful them might be confused with something else? Do they believe Christian are that much different from other people?

          • 45caliber

            bob wire:

            You say that no one has the right to force their religion on others – does this include the Atheist Religion? For some reason, this religion seems to want all the rights that the other religions once had.

          • Karolyn

            Here we go again. Atheism is NOT a religion.

          • Jana

            karolyn,
            And you said bob wire wasn’t against religion???

          • Angel Wannabe

            Agreed 45 Caliber! The Atheists, want all of us to put our religion aside, for them.

            Nothing spoken in schools, Crosses Removed, The Ten Commands removed__ AGAIN, I say, They pulled Religion fron the schools and out of our lives and ushered in metal detectors & police!__Incidently, whatever what ever happened to the days when people minded their own lives and business!

          • DaveH

            Give it a rest, Angel. When is the last time you heard me say anything about stifling religion? And there are plenty like me out there.
            What do you hope to gain by alienating Freedom lovers just because they don’t share your religion?

          • Angel Wannabe

            Daveh, I wasn’t replying to you dave. I was replying to Caliber and I’ll give it a rest when I’m d*mned good and ready, but thanks!!! :)

          • Jana

            DaveH,
            You are a wonderful exception. I am a Christian, but I count you as a good friend. I think and I hope you feel the same. We respectfully agree to disagree on this subject. Most of us respect your right just as you respect our right.
            You are a good man.

          • DaveH

            Thank you, Jana.

          • bob wire

            “Jana says:
            August 1, 2011 at 6:04 pm

            karolyn,
            And you said bob wire wasn’t against religion???”

            Suggesting that religious faith is a precious, personal and private matter does not constitute opposition or disbelief dear Jana. Forgive me for not singing praises, but my praise or affirmation is not required by the Divine, but only my surrender. I figure to be the Divine requires little cheering from anyone such as I. I understand that you were taught differently, as was I but I grew out of it to see father. It’s matters little where you start but where you finish.

            And 45, the absence of a faith affiliation is not a religion and there is little to compare. Atheist are simple unaffiliated. But yes, it’s true there are some loud militants in the mix that show intolerance and seek to discredit the Divine at every opportunity.

            Their similarity to the faithful is witnessed only in their common intolerance toward believers. The late Maddam O’hare was one such person, she created quite a ruckus for several years in the courts. As I understand it, she and some of her family simply disappeared. Hmm?

          • Jana

            bobw,
            You are so pathetic. You have a male ego problem.

      • Jeep

        bob, so of the three “offences” from other Bob’s post, you could only argue with religion? Hmmm…

        • Angel Wannabe

          Jeep, I tend to gravitate to what I know…

          • Jeep

            ummm…okay Angel…I was replying back to bob…but, okay!

          • Angel Wannabe

            Sorry jeep, I spoke b4 I was spoken too! :)

          • Jeep

            Angel, no worries my friend! Keep up the fight, and there is nothing wrong with being passionate about your beliefs.

          • bob wire

            and my response was addressed to Angel’s pointed quandary Sir.

          • Kate8

            Angel W – The godless Left is continually complaining about Christians even mentioning their religion, yet they think it’s okay to shove their ideologies down OUR throats.

            Forcing us to honor the gay lifestyle is not forcing their (im)morals down our throats? How about indoctrinating our children into, not just the gay lifestyle, but their socialist thinking? How about forcing us to participate and support their socialist programs, like O’care, even though we may abhor this dastardly medical system?

            How about their insistence on the removal of all Christian symbols, even ones which are part of our history, because they find them offensive, and shove all things secular and vile at us and insist we accept it? How about expelling students and firing employees who display or mention their faith in some way, like wearing a cross or carrying a Bible? And yet, they force our children to listen to darwinian indoctrination as if it were absolute fact, when it is only theory?

            And karolyn, atheism IS a religion. Secular humanism is a religion. Any system of belief in regard to the realities of life is exactly the same as religion, though what you look to as your source or god may be different. And yet we are being forced to bow to these ideologies while Christians are being silenced.

          • Jana

            Kate8,
            Wow, I couldn’t have said it any better. Thank you.

          • bob wire

            I’m beginning to think you have a fixations with something being crammed down your throat Angel. You keep repeating it over and over.

            I figure there about as many Godless on the Right as there are on the Left, while you seem to want to claim exclusive rights to righteousness in the name of the Right. If it was only that simple.

            That’s truly unworthy discussion Angel and I’ll leave you alone with your twisted thoughts. That should be just punishment enough and little I could add.

            Try offering some control over your thoughts someday, change your words, change your life. You can’t tell me you are a happy, blessed person with the trash and venom you broadcast. I worry for you.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Bob wire, Good Grief, and you talk about me being twisted???!!
            If you were trying to make a point, it didn’t work! But have a great day None-the-less! :)

          • JeffH

            AW, I sometimes think this guy is on hallucinogens most of the time.
            Best to ignore his, unbeknownst to him, meaningless drivel. :)

          • Jana

            JeffH,
            You hit the nail on the head on this one.

    • Dagney

      Unfortunately, his party controls the Senate. There is no way Obama will be impeached.

      • Robert A Hirschmann

        You’re right of course. But I can dream can’t I? Or is that against the law too?

        • 45caliber

          Robert:

          As far as he and his friends are concerned, it will be against the law. Isn’t that a Hate Crime?

          • bob wire

            Your attempt at humor has a racial slant 45. LOL hehehe! I guess you know that? Being a closet redneck has never been more difficult these days.

            I take it you are being funny since high crime and treason is what would have to be proven. However, if you are remotely familiar with law, you know that you only have to claim such evidence exist to file a case. It’s then for someone to offer such evidence that shows sufficient grounds to proceed forward with impeachment. And of course, the house and senate would have to weigh in. They’d have a field day of it, as would the media.

            ~ Little work toward any job creation would take place which I don’t expect anyway. Since it’s the GOP’s job to see any and everything proposed by this administration is to fail, it wouldn’t matter too much.

            Good luck with that ~ I’ll hang back and just sell tickets if it’s okay with you?

          • JeffH

            bw says, “Your attempt at humor has a racial slant 45. LOL hehehe! I guess you know that? Being a closet redneck has never been more difficult these days.”

            Typical liberal comment, racist accusations by a wannabee in the closet “liberal”…yeah a label bw, a label…if the shoe fits wear it and wear it proud.

  • bruce

    Bob,
    Excellent piece today. The lack of civility and the lack of substance in arguments is rampant, and a symptom of a failing education system in this country, as well as a corrupt political establishment. How can we expect the people to act responsibly and to exhibit class when the nation’s leaders do not? Also, 24 hrs per day, most of the media members in the country are pathetically left-biased, unprofessional and lack any civility as well. I heard today of a poll that shows 93% of the mainstream media members voted for Obama, and that did not surprise me in the least! WIth regard to demeanor, tune in to MSNBC and watch the full evening repetoire of proof of NO LOGICAL ARGUMENT coupled with tantrums, lies and distortions. A great example would be Matthews, Maddow or O’Donnell–yes, I watch to hear what the extreme left is saying in their attempt to destroy the free system our founders gave us, and I do mean that seriously, not as a tantrum. They’ve said themselves, and their dear leader, Obama, says they want to fundamentally change our nation, and I believe that it’s only been during his term that We The People understood exactly what he meant. Wouldn’t they love to silence us dissentors and impose their will over our freedoms, money, rights, possessions, activities? Hmm, sounds like socialism.
    The rate at which the trend is increasing is the scary part, in my opinion. On the one hand, the more shrill the media gets, the more our country is correcting course (and vice versa), but the more divisive they try to be and more shrill the media and the “progressive” statists like Pelosi, Frank, Reid and the Democrat leaders scream out. It’s the leadership that the people hear daily that is setting the bar for dividing the nation and it’s escalation started in earnest under the Clinton administration, IMO. IT was the primary tactic of the Clintons to divide the nation and to conduct class warfare, and “spin” and “political correctness” came to be terms we all learned while their mouthpieces made asses of themselves on camera. However, that era seems like child’s play when compared to the current Democrats (Progressive Socialists) ramped up class-warfare tactics and policy making for government power and crony benefit at the destruction of our freedoms. It is no wonder the debate has detriorated, as the whole system has. My question is, is it all intentional as a tactic, like political correctness is, or is it collateral damage of the lefist war on America?

    • eddie47d

      We did have the Joseph McCarthy and Nixon right wing attacks on America and a few others over the years. The left has it’s screwballs and so does the right. I’ve somewhat given up on the talking heads on FOX and MSNBC because of the screaming and distortions that are always in full bloom.

      • 45caliber

        eddie:

        I’m sorry to say this but I’m beginning to wonder if McCarthy wasn’t correct.

  • http://Na. Robert Bradfield

    Hi, its that South African again.

    Bob,

    I find all the articles of very good quality and well thought out. When I see people using all kinds of bad language I think back to my childhood. If you wanted to look grownup you would swear something awful, so I think exactly that of people reverting to that way of debating. I am not directly impacted with what is going on in America, but indirectly we as South African will be impacted if something bad happens in your country. It is good thing that you discuss your situation as a lot of what you are afraid of in America is taking place is countries such as South Africa. When I do comment I will always try to refer to our experiences to guide the debate.

    Thank you for the opportunity for a foreigner to also comment on your articles.

    • 45caliber

      Robert:

      I’ve always considered swearing and personal attacks as the inability of the speaker to justify his believes with facts.

      One of the funniest radio programs I ever heard was a liberal radio speaker who would bring up some topic and then personally attack whoever called in with the opposite view. The program I heard has a cop call in to tell him to shut up about a certain topic as it encouraged crime and created danger for the police. Since he didn’t dare personally attack the cop he was reduced to stuttering.

  • Raggs

    Well I’m sure that most of us are guilty of some name calling and finger pointing… Just look at the one in the white house, it seems to be his peorsonal past time…. But thats no excuse… Liberals are always tagging people with some sort of “racist”, “christian extremist”, “nazi” and many other degrading words, and for the most part ( 100% of the time ) they get away with it… But let a conserevative same something and all hell breaks loose…

    • Dagney

      Life isn’t fair. There is good and evil. Do you descend to the evil to prove you are good? No.

      Just remember that the name calling of the left is just projection. They throw those names off onto someone else to divert attention from their own proclivities. That’s all it is!

      • Karolyn

        Dagney – Don’t lay it all on the left.

        • Jeep

          Truth hurts a little, karolyn?

          • bob wire

            Jeep , you seem to believe that a one sided arguments serves you best. I might wish to believe the same thing, so why don’t you quit defending and let us kick your ribs in? ( figuratively speaking of course) ~ it would only hurt for a little while.

          • Jeep

            bob, talk about “civil discourse”. Bring it on big boy. I’ll bet your a fat pig anyway. I can take anything you could possibly dish out. Just don’t be suprized if things don’t work out so well for you…this soldier bites back.

        • Irene

          From my perspective, a lot of people are ‘pigeon holing’ themselves as if we humans were one demensional beings, we are not. And as life goes on it serves us to try and move forward rather than try an recreate the past, which often times were not as appealing as they seem, so I am not sure if Civil Discourse aligns itself to the right center or left, but you do bring up a very good point, for all of the ‘communicating’ we do, most of it appears mean spirited and biased. Often when it isn’t meant to be responses to any discourse can make it appear so, by skillful word crafts(men) and (women) who publishes what most of us hear and read.

          • Karolyn

            Thank you, Irene. A voice of reason.

          • eyeswideopen

            Irene, hands clapping!!!

        • Dagney

          LOL, sorry, Karolyn, nothing is 100% on either side. HOWEVER, since the left are the people that MOSTLY resort to vitriolic attacks (because they don’t have a logical response since ALL of their policies are EVIL) my comment still stands.

          • Karolyn

            I beg to differ. I would bet that if you took one day’s discussion and counted the vitriole coming from both sides, taking score, as it were, we would find it to be pretty even, if not a bit heavy on the right, only since there are more conservatives posting. I am really being objective here and just ignoring those who believe me otherwise.

          • Jeep

            Sorry karolyn, but your bias is showing through. I suppose you would be “correct” in that most people commenting here are right leaning (wow! that’s a big shocker on a conservative web site!) Have you ever been to the Daily Kos, Democratic Underground, Sardonic Subversive and a host of other left wing sites? You may think we are full of hate, but I would dare you to objectively read some of the rhetoric coming from the other side.

          • Karolyn

            No, Jeep, I have never visited those sites. I like to check out the blogs at Common Dreams, where the posters are primarily liberal. However, the discussions are short and not usually nasty. I have no desire to join in on negative thinking. I’m always looking for the positive.

          • eyeswideopen

            Dagney, how about physical attacks, from a radical right wing, Christian, who sounds like a republican talking head? The FreeMasions in this country must be cringing at the thought he was one of them.check the website showing the radical hate groups in America, and you will see a common deminator amongst the groups. I am referring to the latest attack on innocent people in Norway. How does violence ever further anyones cause? Be it verbal or physical?

          • Jeep

            karolyn, answering you is like trying to hold mercury. I’m sorry, but your sweet demeanor shifts like sand when anyone points out your liberal bent. In one breath you point at conservatives with accusations of mean spirited behaviour, and in the next feign ignorance of rampant liberal vitriol. I believe you are all too aware of the weakness in your “touchy feely” posts, and try to hide behind a facade of kindness. You would be better served by coming out in the open and proudly proclaiming your proclivity towards redistributionist policies and feel good social programs.

          • Karolyn

            Jeep – I never made a declaration that all conservatives are hateful or whatever. I have always stated that it is some conservative posters. I don’t feign ignorance of liberal vitriol. I said I don’t visit those sites and really don’t feel the need to hear more garbage. It’s all so pointless. Yes, I do believe in social programs. Yes, i do know there are abusers of the system. I see them every day. However, I do not feel you should throw the baby out with the bathwater. And, yes, rich people abuse the system too, taking advantage of the weak and exploiting people for personal gain. It’s something I do not understand because riches mean nothing to me unless they’re used to help others first. Greed, hatred and the desire for power are what are the root of what is wrong with this world.

          • Jeep

            karolyn it is easy to feign innocence and to denounce riches when you are on the govt dole. When you take govt handouts you are only obfuscating your responsibilities and laying them on someone else. Claiming that “times are hard” or “it’s only for a while” is no excuse to the situation you created that put you in the position to need govt assistance.

      • bob wire

        as do pundits from the right in great abundance and fevered pitch. With hundred of books, radio stations, whole TV media channels,web sites, and their “hero’s devoted to right wing propaganda 24/7, demonizing any opposition. It’s became a national pass time sport much like a tractor pull event.

        Let’s face it, we all hate to lose an argument. When lesser minds fails with brilliance due in part to a weaker position, they resort to bulls$hit instead of reconstructing their argument or conceding.

        The spoken word is a ineffective tool when ignoring and defending is so easy to do by anyone not contained. Nanny, nanny Poo Poo!

        We can pin our opponents with words, but we can’t hold them down and make them, say “Calf Rope”

    • Don

      Raggs, don’t forget the word racists, it seems that that is a word they like to use !!!

      • bob wire

        and you wonder why? ~ If I’m not mistaking, you just brought it up, ` spit it out of “thin air” !

  • Tazio2013

    Finally a topic we agree on!

    “Anyone who thinks that money is evil should think again. It is evil that has taken control of the issuance of money. But money itself, as determined by the free market over thousands of years, is far from evil – it is necessary for the advancement of a specialized society where an increasing division of labour allows for the creation of ever more useful products and services to allow humans to maximize their time and improve living standards. The reverse is what we have now. You are being forced to work half your life for the “system.” Is that not an encroachment? …

    “The system is rotten and thoroughly unfair. The Fed hands out trillions in bailouts – none of which loosens the pressure of your noose. Barack Obama and his puppet administration threaten more fear to cutoff the social security checks to seniors, amongst other threats, if the debt ceiling isn’t raised yet again. Can’t you just see all of those unfortunate seniors squirming as they realize their lives have been stolen and the footboards are starting to creak?

    It is very very sad that Amercia has come to this point – it is broke. It to be more blunt, it was broken on purpose so that a global new world order can be hoisted – an international gallows, if you will.”

    You can read the full editorial here: As America Continues to Tank, What Will You Do?

    http://www.thedailybell.com/2746/The-Man-With-No-Plan-The-Fuse-on-Americas-Debt-Bomb-Just-Keeps-Getting-Shorter

  • Joyce from Loris

    Bob, keep up the good work! The above mentioned commentators to this column who have decided to “unsubscribe” will not be missed, I assure you. Most of us have tried to debate them on several occasions. I think what finally worked, what finally encouraged them to unsubscribe, is that most of us started to ignore them completely. I think that a few of them will eventually show back up, just with a new identity name. But we really do appreciate you, Chip and the other writers for the “food for thought”, the extensive research that you all do, to better inform us all.

  • Cawmun Cents

    Well Bob….
    I wish I had good things to say,today.

    I have found myself not reading i41s’posts for quite some time.
    But I would never censor him.
    Choices can be made,without banning commentary.
    If I dont want to read what others say,I just dont.
    I enjoy this site immensely.
    I probably write things which most find offensive.
    I hope so.
    There is a strong push to not be offended in this age.I find that many folks are offended at the smallest disagreement that they have with others.This may cause them to call names and shout slogans,but that is the world we live in.
    It seems like people have an issue with sweating the small stuff.
    Personally I find it amusing.
    Feelings get hurt.
    Entire groups of folks become offended.I see that as poetic license.The sad irony is that the very people who should read the anger in peoples posts,clearly choose to do what I suggested,which is to ignore them.
    Forge on with political correction.Discuss with civil discourse.Be nice.Play well with others.Hmmmmm.While I agree with the premise,I find myself begging the question.
    Is this the kind of sandbox I wish to play in?
    Bob,
    I will be the very first to commend you for giving me a voice.
    I thank you for having this place to come to to read the opines of others.
    But I am afraid that I will leave this thread soon.
    I will probably look in from time to time.
    But I doubt whether I will share anymore.It seems like I have been doing what I should not have.Being uncivil in my discourse.I am not embarrassed,nor do I offer apologies unless I wish to give them.
    I have met and shared with several through the words posted here.It has been a part of my day,for awhile.BUT I FEAR THAT SINCE I MAY POST SOMETHING WHICH OTHERS FIND OFFENSIVE…..I may have to gracefully bow out now.
    It doesnt seem right to continue to post on this thread.
    i41,cannot.
    What makes me different than him?
    Probably nothing much.
    No matter the value,It was fun while it lasted.-CC.

    • libertytrain

      This isn’t about political correctness. It’s about a bit of common decency. A little couth goes a lot farther than uncouth. Would you go into your Church and talk the way some folks write here. With your mother or grandmother? I think probably not.

      • Angel Wannabe

        I get all that Liberty, for the most part, most folks on here, I think respond in a way to which they are spoken too. Some just lash out I agree, that’s just fear &frustration of the unknown and in the moment right now.

        BUYER BEWARE, common decency can & does slip into political correctness & tolerance. Too much of either begats complacency, which is what got us here in the first place… Not speaking up!

        • libertytrain

          I disagree with your statement. Name calling and swearing fit well in high school and grade school, but does nothing to further anyone’s point except to prove that they don’t have an ability to argue the issue intellectually.

          • Angel Wannabe

            LT, Passions are Passions, some good some not. If we were all perfect, we’d be in Heaven helping God…wouldn’t we…God uses stinkers Liberty, read the bible, read about those who were not so perfect, but chosen by God to be his disciples regardless.

          • Karolyn

            Right! Just because someone disagrees with a person is not a reason to disrespect them. I don’t think anyone has mentioned that word “respect.”

          • libertytrain

            Angel – what you just said, has nothing to do with what I said and wasn’t a part of my discussion. I’ll pass on this discussion.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Liberty Train, It was an analogy…

          • Karolyn

            Angel – Excuses are excuses. “The devil made me do it.” “No one is perfect.” are obviously what you believe. Do you condone adults going ballistic at their kids’ ballgames? Bullying? They all involve passion. We can’t control ourselves? If we all said and did everything we wanted via our “passions”, there would be chaos.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Karolyn “Angel – Excuses are excuses. “The devil made me do it.” “No one is perfect.” are obviously what you believe. Do you condone adults going ballistic at their kids’ ballgames? Bullying? They all involve passion. We can’t control ourselves? If we all said and did everything we wanted via our “passions”, there would be chaos.

            If Ron Paul would condone, the legality of drugs & prostitution if elected, then why put a lid on free speech?_-Its the old adage K, Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words only hurt if you let them.
            For the most part I treat everyone with kindness and a lil humor, unless I feel attacked, then you’ll get what you give. I’m fairly simple minded_ really.

          • http://deleted Claire

            libertytrian–I agree.

          • Kate8

            Angel W – I’ve got to go with you on this. Freedom should trump bad taste. Always. Anything else smacks of big brother.

            I haven’t seen much here that I would outright ban. Some people are disrespectful. Don’t respond to them. As far as i41, I only read his posts sometimes but, in spite of his crusty demeanor, he did have some valid points. I would not have banned him. It seemed the beef was over the word “niggardly”, which sounds like a racial slur but isn’t. So now we’re being thought police.

            People are angry, and rightfully so. And now their freedoms are being further curtailed by a place where they felt safe to speak. We may not always like what they say, but many have died to insure their right to say it.

            We must be very careful here. It’s a scary trend.

          • libertytrain

            I disagree with your statement. He was blatantly using the word incorrectly as an attempt at racism. When someone comes on here and intentionally goes against the repeated requests to refrain, I think he has the right to remove said character. If someone is a guest in your home and he blatantly continuously disrespects you, do you remove him from your guest lists, or just say “he’s just using his personal liberty to disrespect my wishes at my home.” – If you let him stay as your guest you have just given up your rights to your home – letting him take preference over your rights.

          • JeffH

            libertytrain, I fully agree with your last statement and I fully support Bob’s decision. I recall calling i41 out on this subject and was verbally scathed by him. His intent, despite the word definition, was as you say.

            Mr. Livingston did warn and ask i41 on more than one occasion to tone it down a bit and i41 challenged Bob’s request the same way a rebellious child would challenge a parent. After these warnings i41 stepped up his usage of said word in defiance of PLD and Bob. i41 disrespectfully “forced” Bob to draw the line and when it was finally crossed…exit stage left!

            A man’s gotta do what a mans gotta do!

          • libertytrain

            yep jeff, he behaved like a belligerent child – bent on totally overstepping the boundaries of even a remote politeness when on someone else’s turf. What he does on his own turf is his choice.

    • Angel Wannabe

      CC, I’m a bit surprised on this articles take too!__Life sucks, if your angry say so. If life’s good, then say that. But I refuse to side with the PC crowd, just to keep from being labeled as a hater dissenter or a troublemaker. We might not like all comments,I agree, ignore the ones who don’t wish to respond to__alas_ opinions are like buttholes, we all have one! No one has to like them!

    • Dagney

      CC, I have not be offended by anything you’ve posted. Common Sense and Cawmun Cents are always needed!

      • JeffH

        Dagney, I agree. This website is the freest opinion website I’ve ever seen and don’t misinterpret what Bob has said.

        Cawmun Cents, Mr. Livingston did warn and ask i41 on more than one occasion to tone it down a bit and i41 challenged Bob’s request the same way as a rebellious child would challenge a parent. Somewhere Bob was “forced” to draw the line and when it was finally crossed…exit stage left!

      • Cawmun Cents

        Gentlemen,

        Please read my newst post below as it has some bearing on the subject of the article.It is only a matter of my opinion.

        It has been nice exchanging ideals……-CC.

        • JeffH

          Cawmun Cents, you would be sorely missed should you decide to vacate PLD. I hope you would reconsider any thought of departure.

          • Jana

            Cawmun Cents,
            My sentiments exactly. Neither do I think Personal Liberty wants you to go.

      • Cawmun Cents

        Perhaps I am different.
        Maybe my heart is hardened.
        I dont know what is wrong with me.
        It’s hard tellin’ not knowin’.

        I once had a 4 year old girl teach me something.
        It seems I had been wrong all along.I called her silly,and she told me,”sticks and stones will break YOUR bones,But names will never hurt me.”
        I always heard that bit of wise advise differently.
        With a special deflection to the persona.
        But I had to admit….her version sure sounded better to me than the one I grew up hearing.
        I was sure that I knew the way that was said ans it wasnt THAT way.
        Some people think age affords them wisdom.
        I gotta say it hasnt done much for me.
        But it has toughened me in the ability to take name calling.When you work with men who could care less if they trample your feelers,you have to have thick skin.
        Everything I see has prepared us for having thick skin.The motion picture industry,the vernacular used on various other forms of media,have led me to be a bit more reserved about that which third graders do.
        They poke fun at what they dont understand.Big deal.
        Fallacial attacks come and go.They just dont mean a thing.
        Recognizing them for what they are is a good trait.Nothing like a generous portion of red herring to go with that crow you are about to eat…haw!But to worry about how words effect you emotionally,when actions which are of a far more heinous nature go on around you without notice,is well…..sad.
        It is a perfect example of misdirection,as many here have noted.Myself being among those counted.But people continue to react with feelers,rather than with emotional content.
        KEEPING ONES EMOTIONS IN CHECK WHILE YOU ENGAGE IN DISCOURSE OR COMBAT WILL HELP YOU FOCUS ON THE TASK AT HAND.
        Getting hurt will only prolong your anguish.
        Extinguish the pain.Get on with the assessment.Forge on with civil discourse.Get with the political correctness.Play nice in the sandbox.

        Nah!
        Let it all hang out!This is America.
        If we here in America cant take one on the chin,who else is going to help us get up?Nobody will be there to grab you by the ear and haul you up.No one will care.Everyone else is banking on you to take the fall for the ten count.Go ahead…cry and oblige them.Show them you cant take it anymore.Watch the vultures circle as you display the dead meat.Go on,I triple dog dare you……-CC.

    • Jeep

      I41′s language and tone were generally beyond the pale. There was a strong element of White Supremacy that, for better or worse should have been “offensive” to anyone.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Jeep, yeah but none-the-less free speech, is free speech isn’t it? No one says we have to agree or like all comments?_None of us like what the dictator in the White House is doing, yet were forced to put up with him, aren’t we, yet we voice out opinions? People today They’re either complacent or way over the top!__personally, I say if ya don’t like it don’t read it!__Don’t like a TV show, then turn it off!_If your content with what Washingtons doing, then there is no reason for anyone to be here!

        • Jeep

          Angel, do not mistake free speech with a public forum. Just because the writers of this site have been gracious enough to allow us to post here, this is not free speech. As is your own home or business the owner has the right to limit or accept all within it’s bounds. Keep in mind that this site and most others are only “public domain” until the owner decides otherwise. Would you limit Bob’s rights on his site?

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jeep, No I wouldn’t limit Bob on his own site… and quite frankly, I don’t like a lot of comments on this board either, especially the Liberals., so I ignore them, unless I feel like playing.

          • Jeep

            Angel, I know you and I are together on this issue and most others. I just wanted to give you a little reality check on the free speech and domain thing! Keep up the fight…

        • Karolyn

          Angel – It shows a lack of respect and common decency when someone has to respond in a derogatory manner. If somebody can’t get their point across without insulting someone, there’s something wrong. Why do they bother? Just because they want to put someone else down – no other reason. I wouldn’t call it PC to be respectful and act in an intelligent manner. It’s called manners.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Karolyn, This article was a good one(kudos Bob)and designed to incite a discussion on how to debate. And I’ve included political correctness, because it is so closely related and slides readily into “being able to debate civilly”.
            We can debate all day, on how to debate. The reality is, It gets us no where, its just another topic to keep us busy.
            Since 2009 when I subscribed to personal liberty, I’ve found its each a choice as to whether to respond to an attack., and it changes on any given day. It depends on the mood or the passion.
            As for me, I come on here now drop and opinion or two and take off. As I’ve stated above, we discuss the same things over and over again.__
            Most of the regulars on here, both liberal & conservative know where the other stands, except for the newbies.
            There are no hard and fast answers K to clear up an American Society that more closely resembles Rome, than what we knew as kids. Unless the people and our leaders return to the honesty, Family Values, and the morals that gave us vision and something to work towards, I doubt will ever see the America we once knew again.
            The is a definite difference between right and wrong, I don’t really care how its said.

          • Karolyn

            I consider myself very fortunate to have been born when I was. I would not want to be a kid today. The US will never be what it was, and as much as we might not want to, it’s either adapt or be miserable. Change is inevitable.

        • Cawmun Cents

          (Personal Liberty)Digest
          Live free in an unfree world

          Bottom line is…what do those words(chosen by the moderator)
          mean to you.
          Spin it how you will….
          Does this place live up to those words?
          That is what the article contends…
          some people are allowed to live free in an unfree world….
          others,maybe not so much.i41 where are you?
          But make no mistake…the world is watching.
          They may judge things differently than you do.
          Are you aware of that fact?
          Possibly.
          Be you a bigot,or just a common republican,you might be lumped into the same categories.
          Interesting isnt it?

          • Cawmun Cents

            incidentally,being Christian,I am aware that the reference(in the title)is to living by the spirit.You are free not to be held hostage by your fleshy humanity.
            I get that.
            Moreover Bob,I am with you 100% on the politesse issue,to a degree.
            Perhaps two or three degrees. But I must defer to what those lacking the power of the HS,must be wondering…..is the title proper for everyone?
            Is it Bob?
            I certainly pray that it is….for unless the darkness be defined,how so the light?

            Highest regards,
            -CC.

      • Cawmun Cents

        offensive is subjective.Freedom is not.-CC.

        • libertytrain

          if freedom is not subjective according to you, then I may kill anyone I want, I may steal anything I want, I may do anything I want. For me it has to be subjective – there are still boundaries that we have to abide because of the person that may be standing next to you has freedom as well…

          • Cawmun Cents

            These things you speak of are of an offensive nature,and not marks of freedom.
            How can you be free if you are willing to take someone elses freedom from them?
            The short answer is you cannot.
            You pick and choose whom you give freedom to based on whether they meet your criteria.
            Who died and made you boss?
            You speak of freedom as if you are the one who decides its definition.
            You clearly have little clue,just how important freedom is.
            To seek to take someone elses freedoms because you disagree with their presentation,means you really do not seek freedom,but control.
            The liberty train you are supposedlyy on is doomed to wreck into the fecundity of your discretion.
            You seek to decide who has liberty,who has freedom,and you speak as if you have that right.
            That is your modus operendi,not mine sir/madam.
            I would rather a million rude individuals post on this thread than one holier than thou,hypocrite with manners.
            Civility only goes so far.
            Arrogance is to the bone.
            The afflicted will reap what they sow.
            Anyone who hides behind words of freedom,and yet seeks to decide who has that freedom is fooling only themselves.
            They are only shadows with titles.-CC.

          • libertytrain

            Okay then.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Cawmun Cents,

      I’m afraid you missed my point.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • Cawmun Cents

        Dear Mr. Livingston,

        I am fully aware of the point you have made,and your assertion to the contrary is well noted.

        However,I do believe you have not taken my point into consideration.

        At the title of this thread there is a line I find a bit questionable.It states the phrase,”Live free,in an unfree world.”

        That is your assertion,not mine.
        While I often take pride in my ability to ask simple questions that others may not have considered,I find that listening to OP’s assertions is a two way street.

        I may not neccesarily agree with how they are presented,but to suppose that there is no value to them BECAUSE of how they are presented,is subjective.
        I do not question your ability to oversee with taste and considerable subjectiveness.Nor do I expect you to have to debate your reasoning with others as to why you ask politesse from your subscribers.That sir,is your domain in which we take as fair and just.

        But to ban people under a phrase which says,”live free in an unfree world”,is tantamount to untruth.It might imply deception on your part.
        Whether I agree or disagree wtih that contention,does not leave out the content.
        As such when you ban content whether agreeable or disagreeable on your site,you are effectively causing doubt as to the above statement whether your aim is honorable or not.After having decided that there could be caise for debate about such grievances,I respectfully tried to ask the question(paraphrasing),”What makes me different from i41?”.

        You either did not wish to answer the question,in which case it is as if you decided not to,or you didnt recognize the importance of the query.
        I am nobody in the grand scheme Bob.It wont matter much what I think or do.If I post or if I choose not to,wont affect you much in any way.But to assert in your title”living free in an unfree world”,is quite a statement.
        Perhaps you will understand if I am a bit skeptical?But what do I know?Apparently very little……..-CC.

    • eyeswideopen

      CAWMUN CENTS, thank you for participating. For leaving with such class, HANDS CLAPPING, AND KUDO’S TO YOU!
      GOD BLESS YOU!

      • Jana

        Come on eyes, be nice!

  • http://none Dan P

    Bob, I’ve been around for 81 years and have discovered that you will never go broke selling people short. Lincoln was all you said of him, and more. The best President in history – and one that should be emulated today – was Calvin Coolidge. President Coolidge did absolutely nothing at a time when absolutely nothing so desperately needed doing. Had he stepped in during the financial panic in the early twenties,(we call them recessions or depressions today)the roaring 20′s would nbever have occured. What we have today appears to be, “Do something, even if it’s wrong.” When politicians do it, it always is.

    • JLC

      Good Morning, Dan P — Calvin Coolidge was president when I was born, which will give you a general idea of my age group. I remember nothing about his administration — I was a little young, at the time but, to my personal recollection, Franklin Roosevelt was the one who made a fine art of spending money that we did not have, and letting the next generation foot the bill — a practice that has endured to this day. Earlier presidents, possibly, did the same thing, but I am too young to remember. 8¢ a gallon gas, anybody? Or, 13 gallons for a dollar? I can remember when it was!

      • http://none Dan P

        I was born in 1930, well after Calvin C was president, but history is a tangential interest. My Dad was born in 1877 so I got a load of stuff from him as well as from books. In some sense I was raised in a different manner than most. Dad, a dentist, was 53 and Mom 28 when I was born. To me, most persons in politics described as conservative seem quite “liberal” to me.

  • TexasPatriot

    Bob, thank you for reminding us that we are all adults and should act accordingly. You made me realize how fortunate we are to have this outlet to express our thoughts. I have been guilty of some of the ‘juvenile’ attacks on those I disagree with and I will re-dedicate myself to using my comments to add something to the debate rather than snipe at those who do. I appreciate this forum (and I read many) because there are participants whose opinions come down on both sides of most issues.

    It’s also great to know that you and the other writers actually read our comments and care about what we think. Nothing is better than dialogue to learn understand why others think the way they do. It provides the opportunity to re-evaluate one’s own positions and make sure they are well researched and not just parroting of popular talking points. Again, thanks for a fine article – and a sobering wake up as well.

  • downs1

    Bob,
    Thanks for your good work. I believe what we are witnessing is the dissolution of our once great American society. History shows that every great empire has gone down from within. The United States of America is not immune from the same destruction. It begins when solid moral standards are foresaken. Scripture describes it quite well when it says, “Everyone turned to his own way and did that which was right in his own eyes” (Isa 53:6). People think more highly of themselves than they ought to and instead of lifting others up and encouraging them, they want to denigrate them. This leads inevitably to divisiveness, animosity and adversarial relationships in every area. Greed for power and control is not far behind. There is a lack of trust, even between so called friends and allies. People take and no longer give. This has disastrous consequences on family, education, economics and morals. Once trustworthy religious denominations now don’t know what they believe. They deny what was revealed to them over the centuries as outmoded, unrealistic for our time and foolish. What we once called “good”, we now call “evil” (Isa. 5:20). Violence becomes common. Eventually, the whole culture collapses. We are almost there. When we threw God under the bus back in the 1950′s, He simply removed His sustaining grace from us and let us go our own way as we desired. We’ve proved that He is absolutely right, “Apart from Me, you can do nothing” (Jn 15:5) We haven’t done a very good job, and we won’t. Wake up America!

    • Karolyn

      downs – “Everyone turned to his own way and did that which was right in his own eyes” (Isa 53:6). People think more highly of themselves than they ought to and instead of lifting others up and encouraging them, they want to denigrate them. This leads inevitably to divisiveness, animosity and adversarial relationships in every area. Greed for power and control is not far behind.”

      Bears repeating! Thank you!

      • eyeswideopen

        KAROLYN, THANK YOU!

  • Frank Smith

    Ladies and Gentlemen. I can recall with fond memories on many occasions when that statement was used to bring attention to any number of subjects in a wide ranging attempt to focus on the facts at hand. We have certainly lost the civility of agreeing to disagree when the stakes of our disagreements could have such an enormous impact on the continuing prosperity of this great country. I would like to bring to the attention of those who have an interest in true history to read an article in the Smithsonian magazine that may shed some light on the real reasons for the Civil War and how the decisions made then have resulted in our current difficulties. In the Jan 06 issue, there is an article titled ” My whole soul is in it”. It shows the turmoil that exsisted in Washington in 1862 and the thoughts of those who were intrusted with making the right decisions for those who would ultimately have to deal with the consequences.

  • jopa

    Great article today and I do agree with it about 99.9%,However it did get a little contradictory at one point when Mr. Livingston started with the name calling, calling our President ” Spender in Chief”.This is how it starts and then the next person will try and be clever and out do the previous for a little chuckle.I have been called everything under the sun with my views that I have expressed in the past,and I don’t get offended considering the source and I wouldn’t even bother coming here if everyone agreed with me.There would be no point for discussion and it would get rather boring.I don’t believe in censorship and I kinda miss i41 with his radical views even though it took some time to figure out what he was saying.I can see why he was though, I would not want to be the one to sit there all day and edit out his vulgarity.Keep up the good work Mr. Livingston.Now I’m waiting for JeffH to come along and give you his big kiss for the day so you don’t boot him off the site again.I have watched his posts since he got booted off and didn’t see any offensive remarks, just name calling and some silliness.

    • libertytrain

      Jopa – you obviously took nothing away from this article as your comment demonstrates.

    • DaveH

      I agree with Libertytrain, Jopa. Why did you need to throw in your comments disparaging Jeff?

      • JeffH

        …as you well know, some people just have to keep things personal no matter what. I’m just happy to be singled out by jopa, I must be doing something right.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Jeffh, at’s whats I’ve always said, when someone is attacked and constantly personally persecuted, you know your onto to something! :)

          • JeffH

            :) Speaks volumes doesn’t it. :)

    • Jay

      Because, disparaging comments is the only thing jopa has to offer.

  • Raggs

    OK so what started all of this?

    Complaints from the left?…

    • Angel Wannabe

      Ragg, I don’t know what started it. I’m not on here much anymore, simply because I don’t have the time and the lines in the sand have been drawn. We all know where each other stand. and issues we debate are the same over and over again, I just get bored. Today I have the time so I popped in…. sooo I don’t sparked this

      • Angel Wannabe

        raggs sorry, it was suppose to be “I don’t know what sparked this”.

    • Karolyn

      Raggs – Now why would you suppose it was comlaints from anybody? I would think that Bob Livingston could pick up on this on his own, since he does read the comments. You must have noticed that many offensive words are removed from postings. I saw when he warned i41 about his language; and i41 was subsequently barred. I have read Bob’s responses to posters; and he is obviously a courteous adult debater and promotes same.

      • Raggs

        OH GEEE now what on earth would give me that idea?

        Prehaps a “Double standard” from the left?… NAH that couldn’t be it huh?

        • Karolyn

          Right! I don’t understand why anybody would even ask the question. Paranoia?

          • Raggs

            Yeah… paranoia from the left, I get that.
            I’m sure that don’t want anyone to know the thruth about their agenda.

          • DaveH

            Okay, so far Karolyn has used the words “hatred”, “ignorance”, “paranoia”, and “greedy” when referring to others, just on this board. All manipulative words having little to do with civil discourse. You just don’t get it, do you Karolyn?

          • Scott

            DaveH,
            Why do you consider these words to be manipulative? I think they would have to be used in a statement to make a judgement like this and so far you can’t point to any made by Karolyn. Is it beyond your comprehension? Or is it that you and others like you can’t stand any other opinion except yours? If that is the case move to somewhere where freedom of speech is forbidden, but make sure to agree 100% with the state.

          • DaveH

            Scott,
            All of those labels were taken from Karolyn’s comments on just this board.
            Most name-calling is done to manipulate the victim of the name-calling. If you can’t figure that out, I doubt that anything I could say would convince you.

          • DaveH

            And Scott,
            I would pit my comprehension skills against yours any day.

  • Kevin Beck

    One detail I noticed from the cited examples is that the postings that presented fact-based objections to the authors’ opinions identified themselves with their (presumed) real names, while the flamethrowers all happened to use aliases. I have found this to be a prevailing pattern (excepting sites that permit anonymous postings). I always give more credibility to anyone that doesn’t hide behind anonymous postings or obvious usernames. And I don’t have the time or patience to check for the same usernames being used on other similar boards.

  • George

    He calls me a “Johnny Reb.” What does this mean? Is he suggesting that, because the offices of Personal Liberty are located in Alabama, the facts presented aren’t valid?

    No, it has nothing to do with your location. You could be in Maine, and I would still say the same. I suggest that you oppose the 14th Amendment and Lincoln because you’ve never truly adopted the concept that this is ONE NATION even all these years since the conclusion of the Civil War. You claim that my comments were not reasonable whereas the problem is that they require the excercise of what Agatha Christie’s Poirot calls “the little grey cells.” I don’t doubt that you have them, so why not use them? The fault lies in yourself, not in some failure to reason on my part.

    In your dreams, my friend. Did you ever hear of Jack Benny? Then there was the little matter of Shay’s Rebellion. That was resolved without much difficulty, but it did require the use of force.

    Meaningless drivel. Jack Benny and Shay’s Rebellion? Irrelevant. But that is what passes as discussion today.

    By the way, George also referred to Geopolitical Editor Chip Wood as a “Johnny Reb,” so he apparently doesn’t have much of a vocabulary to work with.

    Last things first. I don’t recall that I referred to Chip Wood as “Johnny Reb”, but if I did do so, it was for the same reason I referred to you as “Johnny Reb.”

    You don’t seem to be able to follow a conversation very well or you would realize that my reference to Jack Benny was in response to your comment indicating that you were considerably older than I by referencing the time at which you began your newsletter. As you may recall (at least, as you SHOULD recall), Jack Benny was famous for continually being 39 as I indicated was my age. Since you seem unable to reason out the argument: I state that I am 39 thinking that you would immediately realize that I was considerably older (like Jack Benny). You responded that you were publishing your newsletter at that time. I respond “In your dreams” indicating that you think you will be able to demean me by claiming that you are much older (and therefore wiser?) than I. Again, it requires the exercise of “the little grey cells.”

    You seem to forget that Lincoln wasn’t alone in suppressing rebellion — hence the reference to Shay’s Rebellion (Look it up; it will do you good). Did you know that during the Whiskey Rebellion George Washington became the only Commander-in-Chief in American history to lead troops on the battlefield? He apparently had no difficulty in using force to put down rebellion. I would recommend that you take a good course in logic. They might even teach it in Alabama. I know they have a first-class climatologist at the University of Alabama so why not a logician? The problem with your attacks on Lincoln is that you are bereft of facts (Look it up in your Funk and Wagnells if you don’t know the meaning though I use either Oxford or Collins Unabridged — occassionally Merriam-Webster). I’ll stack my vocabulary up against yours any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    • sol of texas

      George –

      Your approach to reasoning suggest to me that a recent high school graduate “policy debater”. Maybe you are in college and coaching younger debaters?

      Surely you are not elevating your arguments to the status of “world class logic”? What are the elements of such a claim you are providing to justify that status?

      No insults intended, I am just curious.

      • George

        Sol of Texas wrote: “Your approach to reasoning suggest to me that a recent high school graduate “policy debater”. Maybe you are in college and coaching younger debaters? …. No insults intended, I am just curious.”

        You remind me of Shakespeare:

        Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
        I come to bury Cæsar, not to praise him. 80
        The evil that men do lives after them,
        The good is oft interred with their bones;
        So let it be with Cæsar. The noble Brutus
        Hath told you Cæsar was ambitious;
        If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
        And grievously hath Cæsar answer’d it.
        Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest,—
        For Brutus is an honourable man;
        So are they all, all honourable men,—
        Come I to speak in Cæsar’s funeral. 90
        He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
        But Brutus says he was ambitious;
        And Brutus is an honourable man.
        He hath brought many captives home to Rome,
        Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
        Did this in Cæsar seem ambitious?
        When that the poor have cried, Cæsar hath wept;
        Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
        Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
        And Brutus is an honourable man.

        Julius Caesar, Act 3, scene 2

        Pardon me if I don’t take you at your word.

    • FlaJim

      What’s your point? You ramble on and on about this and that and finally conclude that you’re an expert at looking up words in the dictionary. Well, good for you.

      What any of that has to do with defending Lincoln, tyrantnt, Shay’s Rebellion (a righteous cause), the Whisky Rebellion that sent all the distillers packing to Kentucky where they couldn’t be found and taxes, or the War of Northern Aggression is beyond me. You support federal overreach?

      Ad hominem attacks are childish and usually the refuge of liberals and worse who don’t have a good argument to stand on. Classifying people is one thing (liberal, leftist, etc); silly name calling is another but if you’d like to call me Johnny Reb, too, fine. My great great grandfather was a lieutenant who fought honorably under Gen Lee.

      • George

        May I remind you “To the victors go the spoils.” The North won so it was the Southern Rebellion.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear George,

      At the risk of boring the audience, I will continue this conversation with you for the moment, even though in at least four posts you have yet to address my points from the original column: that Lincoln laid the groundwork for an Imperial Presidency by trampling the Constitution when he ordered the murder of civilians, declared martial law, shut down convening State legislatures, arrested State politicians and journalists, closed newspapers, suspended habeas corpus, seized vast amounts of property without compensating the owners, imprisoned Northern citizens without trial, conducted a war without Congressional approval, ignored orders of the Supreme Court, consented in — and encouraged — the commission of war crimes by his generals, and oversaw the illegal creation of the State of West Virginia. And I’m going to ignore your put downs.

      It appears to me that you believe the end justifies the means; that whatever steps Lincoln took were acceptable because they preserved the Union. If that is the case, then logically you must also accept that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hosni Mubarak, Moammar Gadhafi and Bashar Al-Assad are all justified in their slaughter of civilians as they seek to preserve their respective nations. If not, please explain why not.

      By the way, thanks for making my point for me, that after the Civil War the U.S. become ONE NATION. That is true, and it’s the result of Lincoln’s unConstitutional actions. However, if you read the words of the Founders (in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers) you will know that that is not what the Founders intended the US to be. They feared a strong central government (though some, like Hamilton and Adams) governed differently once they obtained power (Hamilton at Treasury and Adams as President). They understood that a strong central government was anathema to liberty.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      P.S. I am quite familiar with the Whiskey Rebellion and Shay’s Rebellion.

      • Thor

        As usual, Bob, an astute posting and one whose subject is long overdue. You seem to have attracted a loyal following, but one that includes some sentimental and irreverent ‘language-blugeoners’! Perhaps you should prescribe a maintenance dose of Valium, a dictionary, a Harbrace Handbook and a pre-1964 History of the United States as requisites for joining the commentary.

      • George

        What Lincoln did was not to trample on the Constitution by murdering citizens etc but to put down a faction which had declared war on the United States by firing on a military cantonment of the country. Had the nascent states failed to succeed in its revolution against Great Britain, their actions would have been considered similarly. It is only because they were successful that we celebrate it today. The Southern rebels did not succeed so they are viewed differently. Lincoln was one of the greatest Presidents this country has produced so I reject your attempts to tar him with that brush. It is, however, your newsletter so you can publish whatever you wish even though it is utter nonsense. My daughter characterizes me as being about as far right as one can go. I would not characterize you as an extreme right-winger, but as one who had become lost in the 1860s and hasn’t yet acknowledged the fact that the Confederacy lost the conflict. I wouldn’t even call you a patriot since your allegiance is obviously not to the United States but to the Confederate States of America.

        • Thor

          George, you can interpret history anyway you want. The point of this article was not to re-argue your prejudicial opinion about Lincoln but to point out that name-calling and making no attempt to make cogent and logical commentary are fruitless and needlessly take up space. You seem to have a better command of the language than of the subject at hand and, frankly, Sir, a more mature mind would have left the name-calling on the playground….

      • George

        I note that I hastened to reply to the first part of your post and therefore neglected to reply to the last. It is not entirely true that the founders feared for a strong Federal Government. Their conception of the Federal Government was that it would be strong, but only in certain circumscribed areas. The problem with today’s situation is that the fences delimiting the area of Federal concern have been ignored and overrun. I would want the strongest military we can put in the field because it is the Federal responsibility “to provide for the common defense” which is stated in the Preamble as well as in art. 1 § 8 under the taxing power. Without a strong military we would be liable to incursions from any despot who desired to attack us. The conduct of foreign relations and the establishment of treaties was also within the jurisdiction of the Federal power. The need for Federally exclusive power in these matters was unpressed upon the founders by the situation prevailing under the Articles of Confederation where each state did that which seemed right in its own eyes. The power of the Federal Government was not so much a matter of concern for the Founders. It was rather the areas in which it exercised those powers and how those powers were excercised which is why the areas of Federal power were enumerated and circumscribed.

    • DaveH

      It wasn’t a rebellion, George. The Southern States simply didn’t want to be part of the Union anymore. They wanted to govern themselves. We fought for Korea’s right to do so. We fought for South Vietnam’s right to do so. The Northern Leaders were the aggressors, and they did so for the usual reason — they didn’t want to lose their cash cow.
      Here is one of the more comprehensive treatments of the subject that I’ve found online for those who want to consider the truth:
      http://mises.org/journals/jls/16_2/16_2_4.pdf

      • George

        I read one of those files from that source which either you or someone else here recommended. I find that the author was guilty of misconstruing the facts. I consider that to be the equivalent of lying.

        • DaveH

          Well, that does it, I’ve changed my mind. Okay, I’m off now to tiptoe through the tulips.

    • CJM

      Gosh, George, couldn’t you have simply stated: We can respectfully agree to disagree? I suppose not. As to Lincoln and the platitudes extended to him all these years. He was a fair (as in a rating of a ‘C’ grade) President, not the best or the brightest, just the average joe sort of thing. Furthermore, he did NOT want to abolish slavery and even said as much himself. His purpose for the War Between the States was purely for political self-gain and to protect the northern economy…he knew that the North would fail if the South was not forced into remaining in the Union. He ILLEGALLY declared war on States that believed the US Constitution was no longer working for them because of the unconstituional rules and regulations that were being imposed onto the Southern States. I didn’t care for Lincoln when I was taught about him as a child and don’t care about him as an adult……he was just as corrupt as the politicians of his day.

      • George

        Since when is firing on a military installation of the country to which you have sworn allegiance not rebellion?

        • DaveH

          That land belonged to the Confederate States of America. They asked repeatedly for the Union to remove their soldiers from their land. Lincoln refused to receive the Confederate commissioners sent to negotiate such matters as the sale of federal property in the states that had seceded. The Confederacy told the Union to get out of their country (imagine if we ordered the UN of our soil and they refused). Then Lincoln attempted to provision Fort Sumter, knowing that this would induce an attack by the Confederacy. There were no casualties from the firing on Fort Sumter. But it was enough to give Lincoln what he wanted — justification for an attack on the Confederacy.
          Well over 600,000 men died in that war, including 5,000 civilians killed by Sherman and Grant’s soldiers. Lincoln visited his Generals often during the Civil War, so it would be very hard to believe that he had no knowledge of their war crimes. How does a military raze whole cities without the Commander-in-Chief becoming aware?

          • George

            DaveH wrote:

            “That land belonged to the Confederate States of America. They asked repeatedly for the Union to remove their soldiers from their land. Lincoln refused to receive the Confederate commissioners sent to negotiate such matters as the sale of federal property in the states that had seceded.”

            It was a part of the Union and the fort was Union property. They fired fired on Ft Sumter 6 days after seceding — and you say “they asked repeatedly”? Nice try. Remember, they used horses in those days, not cars, and certainly not planes.

          • DaveH

            Oh, is that right, George?
            I guess these people are lying too, right?
            http://www.blueandgraytrail.com/event/Confederate_Order_of_Secession

          • DaveH

            South Carolina (where Fort Sumter is located) seceded on Dec 20, 1860.
            Jan 11, 1861 South Carolina demands the surrender of Fort Sumter.
            April 11, 1861 The Confederacy demands the surrender of Fort Sumter.
            April 13, 1861 Fort Sumter is fired on by the Confederacy.
            The Fort Sumter chronology:
            http://blueandgraytrail.com/event/Fort_Sumter

          • DaveH
        • DaveH

          Here is a book written by a black historian. Imagine that, a black man who exposes the “Great Emancipator” for what he really was:
          http://www.amazon.com/Forced-into-Glory-Abraham-Lincolns/dp/0874850029/lewrockwell/

  • Dr. Mabuse

    Kudos Bob L.
    Your commentary is directly on point and long overdue.
    It’ll be taken to heart for a little while, but just like gravity, the status quo is almost inescapable.

  • jeanelane

    Mr. Livingston,
    This article was somewhat refreshing! You have put into words what I have so often thought as I read comments. Someone comments off-topic and then that starts a whole rabbit trail of off-topic comments. Then another and another. Talk about the telephone game!

    I am too lazy or not enough time to read up on all the things you and your associates post. That is one reason I like reading the articles here. So different than the ‘news’.

    Is social media one more reason the fabric of our society is resembling toilet paper more and more? People feel free to express. Yes, I do too, somewhat. The majority think, “Its all about me.” What they don’t realize is that is isn’t all about them. Or anyone else either. It is all about “us” (actually “you”). And when the “us” loses its importance, we get what we have.

    • sol of texas

      Jeanelane –

      Yes … social networking and other pop culture obsessions like sports, Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, the Bachelorette, America’s Got Talent, Survivor, the Apprentice and such.

      Too much absorbtion of vanity, too little absorption of humility.

      • Karolyn

        There’s a word I haven’t heard in a while – “HUMILITY” A little goes a long way!

      • DaveH

        I love Dancing with the Stars, the Bachelorette, America’s Got Talent, Survivor, So You Think You Can Dance, Top Shot, and Expedition Impossible. So far they haven’t turned me into a Liberal.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Daveh, I personally like the Harry Potter movies. I could care less about the plot, but I absolutely love the Special Effects!!! :)

  • TML

    It’s ashame that this article was necessary, and I indeed believe it was… although I have certainly seen worse sites than this in regards to comments.

    Ultimately, this was my favorite part of the article…

    “An American public that understands the (true) history of our Nation and the ideas of the Founding Fathers is our only defense against the ever-increasing tyranny we face. People must understand the liberties our Founders gained and where those come from before they can recognize what liberties we have already lost.”

    … although I would replace ‘true’ with “fact”… because the opposite of a correct statement is a false statement, but the opposite of a truth, may well be another truth. Remember, a fact is always true, but a truth is not always a fact.

    • Ken Miller

      I’m sorry TML, but I really have to disagree with you. Truth is not truth unless it is a fact. I know that there are people that say “What is truth?” Pontius Pilate asked that of Jesus:

      36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

      37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

      Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

      38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him.

      We need to be in constant search for the truth. But when you have two truths that contradict each other and are in opposition to each other, only one can be a fact, and therefore true. For instance, Jesus was either who he was or he wasn’t. True or False? Fact or Fiction? That is the great question that needs to be answered.

      • TML

        Well, some people say that the stories of Jesus or true, while others say that it’s not… but the fact is objective… the ‘fact’ is; there is no empirical evidence that Jesus ever existed.

        It is ‘true’ that only one truth can be fact at a time… but does not necessarily contradict the other truths, because it depends greatly on your perspective, or more precisely, your frame of reference.

        In its most root form, of what I mean… consider the following:

        If there is a green ball sitting in the room… and I say, “The ball is green”. This is true.
        If you say, “The ball is every color except green”. This is also true.
        If another says, “The ball is no color at all”. This is also true.

        This is explained by the ‘fact’ that, the only reason we perceive the ball as green, is because the frequency of atoms in the ball (or paint) only reflect the spectrum of colors which a perceived as green in our mind… therefore, the ball is green. Because all other colors in the visible spectrum of electromagnetic radiation are ‘absorbed’ into the surface of the ball, the ball is also every color except green. And finally, because electromagnetic radiation is the only reason we perceive color, then the ball is no color at all. For example: if you were to shine a red light, at a green ball, it appears black, and thus no color at all.

        I hope this shed’s some ‘light’ on what I mean ;)

        Remember, fact is often stranger than fiction.

        • Karolyn

          And what if one of the viewers of the ball is color blind? We each see things from a different perspective, and nobody is every actually wrong. What if we were taught that green is orange? That could create quite an argument!

          • DaveH

            And that is why Big Government can’t work, Karolyn. We do each have different likes and dislikes and no Government can satisfy all of us. They only way to happiness is to get Government out of our personal choices.

          • Karolyn

            I absolutely agree with you there, Dave.

        • CJM

          Nice analogy on perception belonging to the beholder, TML, and you are quite correct. However, you cannot disprove that Jesus never existed. There are other newly found documents that do show He lived and was considered the Son of God. Therefore, there is documentation regarding Jesus that does exist beyond the confines of the bible. Consequently, I would say that Jesus’ existence is a fact, not a figment of one’s imagination.

          • TML

            “you cannot disprove that Jesus never existed.”

            I didn’t claim to disprove. Logic dictates that a lack of evidence is not evidence against, and the burden of prove is on those making the claim. That’s why I say that ‘fact’ is objective.

      • Karolyn

        Truth is in the eye of the beholder. One can truly KNOW in one’s heart that something is true. Of course, there are absolute provable truths, but there are some truths that cannot be proven by material means.

        • CJM

          Exactly what is an “absolutely provable truth?” Facts can be contrived just as well as a false statement can be presented as truth. Even the US Supreme Court states there is no absolute truths. The observation arose from the findings of the snake handling case where unsuspecting worshippers visited the church. The couple did not know this congregation used live, venomous snakes in their services. The US Supreme Court ruled that there were no absolutes and that even though we enjoy certain freedoms, there is not absolute freedom in any of our natural rights. Because the name of the church was similar to other churches who do not use snakes in their services and children, who are vulnerable and must do their parents bidding, the offending religious group was found negligent in their practices by putting unsuspecting vistitors and children at risk. The practice of snake handling was not banned from the religious services, but the church MUST post in large letters that snakes are used and also that children may NOT attend these services. Children are allowed to participate in the church’s service only when the snakes and poisonous drink is not present.

      • CJM

        Ken Miller, when you have two truths that contradict, in all probability there is truth to both sides. You cannot claim a statement is false just because another claims they have a fact to support their stance. Facts, just as truth, can be contrived by a dishonest person, which is why we have laws against perjury. Furthermore, we know certain things are what they are simply because that is what we were taught from birth. A good example is the term ‘color.’ There is a small African tribe that will tell you everything is green. Your eyes tell you there are many colors in that environment, but to them, everything is green. The reason? Because this is the only color they were ever taught about. Now, does that fact make them dishonest in what they believe? Certainly not–but it does exemplify the fact that one’s perception of things differ from individual to individual, group to group, etc. Just remember: Nothing in this world is absolute.

        • Ken Miller

          You said, “when you have two truths that contradict, in all probability there is truth to both sides. You cannot claim a statement is false just because another claims they have a fact to support their stance. Facts, just as truth, can be contrived by a dishonest person, which is why we have laws against perjury.”

          I disagree about there being absolutes. That is why I am a theological conservative. I think that different viewpoints can have elements of truth to them, but from a perspective that we might not be able to see, there is still an absolute truth. We may not be able to see it, but it is still there.

          I believe that there is still a difference between facts and evidence. If it hasn’t been proven to be true, then it is not a fact. Someone may believe that they have a fact, but just because they believe it to be true doesn’t make it so. They are expressing faith in a belief.

          You also said, “Now, does that fact make them dishonest in what they believe? Certainly not–but it does exemplify the fact that one’s perception of things differ from individual to individual, group to group, etc. Just remember: Nothing in this world is absolute.”

          I still disagree that perception does not equal reality. You just claimed in your last sentence an absolute truth, “Nothing in this world is absolute.” Are you absolutely sure? :-)

  • sol of texas

    Bob –

    Well put.

    However, methinks the issues are well understood by those who care one way or the other.

    The lines have been drawn and the momentous occasion is upon us today.

    I’ll quote Lincoln, even though as you stated he overstepped his authority many times. The words are inspiration to action universally:

    “… with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, … to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.”

    If the proposed failure to curt spending passes, not olny do I believe the economy will be wounded beyond repair, but the old republic will have dies along with it.

    All 235 years of independence of the United Colonies is at stake, today.

    May God bless all readers of this blog and guide us all through the coming stages of American history.

  • American Citizen

    Give me the facts and I’ll make up my own mind. That’s why I left both political parties and became an Independent.

  • http://@frontiernet.net Doug

    Dear Bob, thank you for doing what you do.
    In the hinterlands there is a tremendous amount of frustration. Some of it is as simple as “weather’” reporting. As silly as it sounds, I don’t need a weather report to tell me to “bundle up” or “dress your children warmly”. Given the temperature and wind speed- I will figure it out. Wind chill, direction, barometric pressure and whether it is rising or falling would be nice. Sports teams I really don’t care about, but the fact the Social Security Reserve being a Ponzi scheme would be nice to know. Being raised listening to Walter Chronkite, Chet Huntly , and David Brinkly has left me, at present, feeling as though I’m in a void.
    Simple things such as the Supreme Court ruling that became Chapter 9 or Title 9 (equal sports opportunities for girls) was a wonderful thing, but did they mean the traditional Friday night games should be expanded to Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday nights; or simply boys should be one Friday night and the following Friday should be girls games. I wonder how it would change Am. education to put the emphasis back on learning?
    We as a nation have money problems so why does every Internal Revenue office and Social Security office need an armed guard. We need a strong defense , but how many super carriers (with consorts eg, nuclear submarines) do we need? How many carriers does any other nation have? Where did “Homeland Security” come from? If it was 9/11 wouldn’t it have been more effective and cheaper to increase the no. of sky marshals, FBI personnel, and increase the intelligence gathering of the CIA or the National Security Agency ?
    We are privileged to have a president who had difficulty with the number of states, problems with his oath of office, and apparently was dropped from a space craft (OK,OK was in witness protection). Ms Palen has had more scrutiny. Why would anyone who cares be just a little crazy?

  • Bert Cundle

    I may be getting cynical but… Could it be, an other media hype? Or another hurtal for O’ to add, to his achievements, at the cost of others.
    I’m sure that the Bush political Family, cost our country greatly.
    But, raising the debt limit is adding to it!
    The Citizens (not the inhabantants.) are going to suffer AND take the blame for “Our” Government!
    It is time for Congress to show its Power & Disrespect to the Execitive Branch! And When are we going to get a President Wise enough to their job!

  • http://personalliberty.com The General

    I have noticed this on many blogs, and find it exasperating most of the time, but in fairness, the stakes appear to be higher now than in the past – we are perched precariously on the edge of a cliff where the Pelosi Progressives have dragged us, and people who abhor a social democratic welfare state are anxious at best. Of course, that does not mean ad hominem will aid in the discussion, but it is hard to accept that folks who want to be dependent on the state deserve measured and careful analysis and reply.
    Two questions: Won’t a BBA end up bringing the courts into the mix – so that they will be interpreting facts and deciding if a particular expenditure violates the constitution? If so, that scares me a bit.
    Second, you continue to mention “the ploy of the elites to keep Americans focused on tangential issues rather than their loss of liberty.” I am interested to know how all that works – do they meet (at Bilderburg, or elsewhere) and agree on how to mess with us? How does one get included in “elite”? How far does this conspiracy go – do you include HAARP and immunizations? I used to defend companies and public entities accused of such conspiracies, and I have a healthy skepticism that they really exist in any provable form. So, what is your proof that they got together and conceived of a carefully designed “ploy” – who is (are) the author?

  • Bert Cundle

    Bob:

    Replies like this are no better intellectually than, “It’s Bush’s fault,”////////////////\\\\\\\\\ I’m SURE THEY WERE & ARE RIGHT, But O’ is Treading in the same Rut!
    His “CHANGES” wern’t what they should be to fix Bush errors! The Raders are winning! Crown him with thorns!

  • Jeryl

    Excellent article, Bob. I have to admit to occasionally being sucked into making a snide remark. It’s hard not to when there are so many people making snide, uninformed attacks. Those types mistake mindless attacks as intelligent conversation. Kind of sounds like union organizers, huh? Oops, sorry.

  • Hydra

    Bob, thanks for these comments and a great write up. It is about time that this kind of loathesome behavior was brought up. I ventured out to comment for the first time last week, and someone gave me “the business”. As you said, the commentator obviously didn’t know what I was talking about, so they just responded in a vile manner. It seems as if so many people no longer have respect for anyone today, not even themselves. I applaud you and your article.

  • Ken Miller

    Bob, it took me awhile to get to where I could leave a reply, since I was trying to read the comments. They started to wear on me so I stopped and scrolled down to reply.

    Thank you for a very good article. I wish more people would read this article and then try to apply it to their comments. Some have. Some haven’t.

    I am one of those “liberals” that people like to call all sorts of names. I am a liberal in my politics, but a conservative in my theology. I think there are a lot of people who use words in their comments that they don’t even understand, or are using in the wrong context. I like to read a well reasoned article that isn’t screaming at me and full of bigotry or hate. I try to avoid such people who write or say such things because of what they seem to have in their hearts. Their hearts seem to be so hardened that they are incapable of hearing a different point of view.

    There was only one thing I noticed in your article that dissapointed me. You apparently couldn’t help yourself when you referred to the President as “Spender-in-Chief”. That’s the kind of thing that I get tired of, a lack of respect. He is the President, Bob. As a theological conservative I believe it is God who has placed him, as well as each preceding President, in authority over us. In his letter to the Christian church in Rome, the apostle Paul wrote,

    “1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.” Romans 13:1-3(TNIV)

    As you know, he wasn’t referring to duly elected officials in a country such as ours, he was referring to the Romans.

    There are too many in the public arena that seem to think it is a sign of weakness to be civil, and they thrive on what their followers would consider to be witty one-liners (sound bites, twitters) that attack their political opponents(Jesus refered to them as”neighbors”).

    Here in Fort Lauderdale, where I live, one of our congressmen wrote an online artcle in which he insulted anyone with an Obama2012 bumper sticker as “a threat to the gene pool”. Such comments from leaders, which shows so little respect toward others, just encourages an environment in which that lack of respect runs rampant through our society. It sets an example where students feel free to disrespect their teachers, where students refuse to stand for the pledge, where there is no concern or respect for the rights and property of others. No respect for the law, for religion, etc., and no respect even for the duly elected leader of the country that we are so blessed of God to be citizens!

    I had a discussion with a fellow online the other day about respect.
    He followed the belief that a person has to earn your respect. In all due respect to him and many others who feel the same, I believe that is an evil, deceptive, lie from Satan himself. I was brought up by Christian parents to respect others no matter who they are. I was taught that it is proper to hate the sin, but Jesus taught us to love the sinner (we are all sinners). On His Sermon on the Mount He went even further, commanding His followers to, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

    I believe in the trickle down theory of respect. If we show respect to those who are in authority over us, others will witness that, and the respect will trickle down to us.

    Thanks again, for your very timely and well thought-out article.

    • CJM

      Ken: I also was brought up to respect another, period. However, even though I did respect the other person, I got tired of being spit upon and that individual lost whatever respect I had. As far as I am concerned, if one wants my respect, then that person must earn it; until then, I will tolerate whatever that individual says or does as long as it is not illegal. I have no respect for many of the politicians because of their dishonesty; they do not respect the people who voted them into office. obama has absolutely NO respect for the United States, the citizens, the US Constitution, the laws of this nation, the Declaration of Independence–he doesn’t even have respect for himself given his deceit, deception, illegitimacy to office, ad nauseum.

      • Ken Miller

        Well, I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I don’t feel that way about him at all.

        • don

          Ken, good post.

    • Void1972

      Ken
      All Religion has been under attack for many decades now. If you know about past history, and the history of communism, you would not support communist theology. Communism and liberalism is the same. Liberals fight against God, and any religious authority. The ACLU is one example. One cannot be a communist, and follow God.
      To undrestand communism it is well to study Plato’s Republic. Plato’s three classes consist of ruling, working and military. plato called for the complete elimination of marriage and family, so all women belonged to all men. Children born from promiscuous unions would be raised by the state. This is what is happening now in America. 70% of black children are of a single parent, 50% of Spanish and 35% white. The majority of these children are on the public dole. Children of the State.
      This is what Liberalism has done to America, and only one example of it’s evil intent.
      You cannot be a liberal and true believer. There are many false profhets that will tell you otherwise.

  • chuckb

    eyeswideshut, so our forefathers didn’t want a white country, so you say, i say differently. our forefathers including some of washington’s family formed a society to ship the blacks out of this country. your liberal education probably didn’t touch on this one. this went on into lincoln’s time. so yes i think our fore fathers would have preferred a white country, they saw how the blacks were reproducing and realized an on coming problem.

    • eyeswideopen

      Chuckb, there you go, changing someone’s name, to use as an insult. Didn’t you read Bob’s post? I said our forefather didn’t specifiy that they only wanted people from certain religions, or politcal parties, or specific nationalities. If they wanted restrictions, they would have included them in the Constitution. Are you saying they weren’t smart enough to have done that?

      • chuckb

        eyeswidwshut, i’m disappointed, you usually have a website to refer to.

        in my opinion the founding fathers never considered the racial aspect since this wasn’t a problem, other than the indians these people were all caucasian. the slaves were considered an un-entity, they did see the problem with their propagation and some considered slavery wrong, the society wanted to remove the blacks altogether from the country. even lincoln believed this.

        check it out. they probably didn’t publish this in the rewritten history books.

      • DaveH

        That’s your name, Eyes? Is that your surname or your given name?

    • CJM

      chuckb: Nowhere in the documentation do you find the statement that our founding fathers wanted a “white” country, so why consider it a truth? The fact is, there was a division over slavery…should it be left in place or abolished? It was not only some of the Southern gentlemen who wanted slavery to continue, but so also did Northerners. As for Lincoln, he was not an abolitionist and did NOT wish to free the slaves; he eventually made his famous Emancipation Proclamation in an effort to justify his illegal actions in starting the War Between the States. The US Constitution does NOT demand that once a State joins the Union, that they are bound in perpetuity to reamin a member, but Lincoln took the notion that the United States could not survive without the Southern States. He also feared expansionism by the Southern States; had they done so, the United States of the North would have been a very small nation in and of itself. The other issue in the War Between the States was to settle the question remaining from the Revolutionary War: Would the United States be an agrarian or industrial nation? This had everything to do with the economics of the day and for the future, so the question had to be settled. Industrialism won the battle, but not the war.

  • Raggs

    From Bert… When are we going to get a President Wise enough to their job!

    Another question… When are people going to learn who to vote for that is commited to the health of this country instead of who is going to give me something for nothing?

  • chuckb

    ken miller, it’s strange how you people of the liberal left are so quick to jump on the, “can’t we all get along band wagon” we must respect a man who has lied to the people so often it is accepted as norm. he refuses to clarify anything regarding his background and during one of the healthcare hearing told the republicans to shut up and sit in the back of the room.
    your kind of pacifism is the kind that costs freedom, you respect the dog that bites you.

    • eyeswideopen

      I thought we could get through one site, without the “birthers” raising their heads. Here is a question for you. What is the immigration status of Marco Rubio’s wife’s family? They came from Columbia, when? Who sponored them? Are they now legal citizens of the U.S.? Why can’t I find any info on his wife, other than she was a cheerleader in high school in Miami? Since he represents me, I have asked his office six times, three using email, and three calling his office in D.C. Florida has a big stake in the immigration policies that will be decided in washington. I want to know if his wife’s family’s personal situation will affect how he votes on legislation. Why is that not possible?

      • Ken Miller

        Yep. That background issue surprised me.

        • eyeswideopen

          Ken Miller, me too, especially since here in FL, we openly acknowledge that we put in office a man who commited fraud to the tune of One billion, 700 million in fines. Who would have thought that I couldn’t get info on my own congressman?

          • Ken Miller

            OUCH! You just touched a sore point with me. Here is someone who stole from us all, and was still able to use his money to buy two elections; the republican primary, and then the general election. Of course his supporters (a vanishing group) would point out that he wasn’t even indicted. When you plead the 5th Ammendment 75 times you must be hiding something!

          • Ken Miller

            I should have added that his budget cuts to education will have cost me personally about $12,000. I’m really having to cut back on my expenditures, which is keeping me from spending money to help the economy. I still have my job, though. His policies have put thousands out of work in Florida. What a cruel joke. He ran on the motto, “Let’s get to work!”

          • Jay

            In a development that could change the dynamics in one of the most closely-watched races of the year, the Miami Herald reports that federal investigators have begun several probes into spending and tax records at the Florida Republican party — including an investigation into the finances of Senate candidate Marco Rubio.

            That investigation, run by the IRS, stems from an existing scandal surrounding the use of Florida GOP-issued American Express cards by elected officials and members of the party organization. The list of officials under investigation includes Rubio, and is essentially a search for evidence that could lead to future charges.

            There is a second, criminal investigation into the state GOP underway. The Herald reports the FBI, IRS and U.S. attorney’s office are investigating former state House Speaker Ray Sansom, who has already been indicted on state charges “that he stashed $6 million in the state budget for an airplane hangar for a friend and campaign donor,” according to the paper.

            In the separate Rubio probe, which is not criminal, the IRS is digging into the tax records of former state party officials and elected Republicans — including Rubio and former state GOP chair Jim Greer — to “determine whether they misused their party credit cards for personal expenses,” according to the Herald.

            The party credit card has already been a hassle for Rubio. In February, Gov. Charlie Crist’s campaign attacked Rubio over allegations that he used his Florida GOP-issued American Express to pay for thousands of dollars in personal expenses while he was state House Speaker.

            The IRS investigation appears to cover those allegations, as the Herald reports:

            At this stage of the IRS investigation, agents are looking at federal tax records, state financial disclosure forms and other documents to see whether Rubio, Greer and [former state GOP executive director Delmar] Johnson may have personally benefited from using their GOP American Express cards without reporting or paying taxes on additional income.
            Should the IRS find anything amiss in the tax records, it could result in “a full-fledged criminal probe.”

            Rubio strenuously denied any wrongdoing in February, and his campaign told the Herald that the same goes for the current IRS probe.

            “There is absolutely nothing to this,” Rubio adviser Todd Harris told the paper.

            Eyes and miller, is this what you two were alluding to. Nothing but unsubstantiated allegations, at least at point. You two are pathetic!

      • chuckb

        ken miller,

        apparently you know something no one else does. please inform us the truth about barry. where was he born and what proof do you have: “a forged bc.”
        where did he go to school and please show us the record.
        please show us his passport, social security #, since it has been reported he had more than one.
        show us who paid for his education and his collegiate record.

        i doubt if you can answer any of these questions, other that what forgeries the liberals stand by.

        • Ken Miller

          Sorry. I went out for awhile, so I’m trying to catch up. chuckb, I’m sorry. I really believe this is pointless. I would be unable to do the same things for any candidate. He is the only one who has been singled out with so many false accusations. The investigations (by a republican governer in Hawaii) have been made, the evidence revealed. I think that there are still even people that believe the moon landing(s) were all hoaxes. I can’t change your mind. Friend, Barack Obama is the President. You’ve just got to deal with it, at least until 2012.

          • Kate8

            Ken Miller – Wow. That was a dodge if I ever saw one.

            Name one other POTUS whose history is completely unverified and intentionally hidden. I don’t know of any.

            Anyone else’s past is open to scrutiny, and may be uncovered by anyone who chooses to do so. Except this one man.

            For all of the investigations being done, and all of the solid evidence of fraud and criminality, it is all kept out of the media and all of our officials refuse to even address it.

            And you don’t find this at all troubling. Hmmmm.

          • Jay

            Elementary my dear Kate, elementary! A reasonable and logical question, for which, and, predictably, you will never receive an answer from the liberaaals!

      • DaveH

        Why are you so desperately seeking information on Marco Rubio’s wife, Eyes? Even if she was an illegal alien, why would that be a problem for you?

    • Ken Miller

      What about his background has he refused to clarify? Why has he been the target of so many false accusations? He is an imperfect human being, a sinner, may sometimes loose his temper, just like the Presidents before him. It is so easy to criticize and find fault with people, especially Presidents. I could play that game with President Bush, but I refuse to play because if I start I will just try to win. It doesn’t solve anything, it just keeps people from listening to each other.

      I’m a teacher of 30+ years currently working in a lock up facility with juvenile boys. I’m embarassed to say that I too have gotten frustrated and angry and lost it so that I’ve told a student to “shut up”. I am not aware of the incident or circumstances you speak of, so I can not reply.

      As far as that wagon is concerned, I’ve been on it for over 50 years because I had a dad who helped me get on it. Yes, because of him I was one of those who never used the word n-gg-r, was for JFK, civil rights and Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., and yes I was against the Vietnam War from the start. I was blessed with a “Godly” man as a father.

      • eyeswideopen

        Ken Miller, you certainly were blessed. You lucky man. God Bless you, you have learned from example.

        • Ken Miller

          Thank you. Yes, I believe you are right. I wish I was as good and as wise a man as he was, although he learned some of his lessons the hard way. His teen years started with the stock market crash. Like many of the preceeding generation, he grew up in tough times. He would work on his hands and knees from sun up to sundown picking beans and other vegetables in the farmfields of northern Indiana. His father deserted the family and his mother was ill from cancer. At least one of his sisters turned to prostitution. In spite of the situational poverty he endured, he graduated as valedictorian of his high school class. He received a partial scholarship toward his goal of going to college and pursuing a medical career. The problem with that was, if you are dirt poor, a partial scholarship is almost a taunt, when you can’t raise the rest of the money. I’m afraid that may be happening again to many of our best and brightest students today. He could see that we were headed to war, so he joined the army air corps, graduated top of his class in officers candidate school in Miami Beach, and was already stationed in Panama on December 7, 1941. After the war he eventually found a job repairing cash registers for the National Cash Register Company(NCR). This was a good solid job in South Florida when my parents and brother moved here in 1947. A good job, but not quite the same a being a doctor. I share this because it highlights the opportunities lost to the poor and the middle class when the help is just not there. Another thing he used to tell me, “In every depression or recession, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Thank you for your kind words.

          • Jay

            Our President, Barack Obama, was a member of a radical communist party, called the Illinois New Party and/or the Chicago New Party, which has Chicago Mob and Black Communist Activist roots. He admits receiving Marxist training (Marxism is the ideology of using law as a means of oppression and control).

            Obama has friends whose terrorist organization bombed the US Capital, the Pentagon and the State Department, killed policemen and plans to kill 25 million people.

            These people may be agents of Cuba or Russia. Obama has surrounded himself with socialists-communists of similar backgrounds and has built and is building a shadow government of communists-socialists-progressives-radicals to bypass Congressional and Citizen control.

            As elected leader of our country, he regularly meets with large labor unions led by known communists. He worked for an international communist organization, ACORN, now under investigation by the FBI and others.

            As a marxist-trained socialist and apparent narcissist, Obama’s primary goals are to eliminate capitalism and replace it with a socialist-marxist-communist program, perhaps under the direction of the Soviet Union who has been our enemy for over 50 years.

            Obama’s policies are leaving our nation open to attack and infiltration by communists and terrorists of dictator countries and his initiatives will collapse the US financial system as it forces us to obtain huge financial loans from other countries like communist China.

            Obama made the Top Ten List of Corrupt Politicians in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, with “Dishonorable Mention” on the 2006 List. Without any doubt, Obama is a Communist.

      • DaveH

        The simpler question would be “What about his background HAS he clarified?”
        http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100613

        • Jay

          Another question I would like to ask Dave, is why did mr. transparency wait 2 years to finally produce what appears to be a FORGERY?

  • Jimbo

    I think many people today either don’t know the difference between the truth and a lie, or they are so used to lying, that they don’t even realize they are doing it. The 9th commandment says we should not bear false witness against thy neighbor. It’s a serious sin that everybody breaks at one time or another, with varying degrees of consequence. If you gossip about your neighbor, you can ruin someone’s reputation, cause them to lose a job, etc. If you lie in a courtroom, it could send an innocent person to prison or even the electric chair.

    It wouldn’t hurt our society if people started going back to church, confessing their sins, doing penance for those sins.

  • Ken Miller

    Good points. The most recent statistics that I could find revealed that only about 35% of Americans attend church at least once a week. I live in Fort Lauderdale. I think it is much lower here.

    • Raggs

      Would you say that immigration from all sides being from many different cultures and beliefs has anything to do with that?…. Political correctness certainly does… Would you say that Christians are becoming a “minority” due to the lack of faith or is it because of the numbers of different religions?

      • eyeswideopen

        Raggs, don’t know if this is helpful or not, but it does have a lot of info.

        http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-attendance

        • Raggs

          WOW… I didn’t know that…

          One other thing to ask… Is it a factor of the government dependancy?
          If I had to guess I would suggest people of little or no self worth are clinging to the government.

    • Bert Cundle

      But: You ask people on the street their Religion… 80% will say Christian!

      • eyeswideopen

        While only 42% go to church. Studies, show that during last 10 years, the Christians are leaving the Christian church. Very sad, in deed.

        • Karolyn

          What would they mean by “leaving the church?” Just not going to church? If they’re not going to church, they can still be Christians. Worship can be done everywhere. I have heard that primarily about England. It does not necessarily have to be sad. People can be spiritual and an asset to society without belonging to any church. Of course, where I live in SC, no need for any worry here!

          Also, I had heard several years ago that the majority of people asked on the street would say they were Catholic, whether or not they practiced.

          • Raggs

            Doesn’t oblama fancy himself as a “Christian”?
            I mean it’s just a dog and pony show but.

          • Raggs

            Hey Karo… When oblama gets around to it have him show us where the other million paths to heaven are and BTW if he finds them in one of the 57 states I sure would like to know where.

          • Ken Miller

            I believe that Christian scholars consider Europe to be in a post-Christian era. Many of their church buildings are now empty museums. The opposite is true in South America where the Christian church is experiencing strong growth. Maybe we just need to allow more South American immigrants into the U.S. to fill up our churches! (I’m sorry, I just couldn’t help myself) :-)

          • Ken Miller

            Raggs, I was out to the store for awhile, but before I left I was sure there were only 50. What happened when I was gone?

            I have heard President Obama in his own words, claim to be a Christian. He also reads his Bible(NOT Koran). I also read that last Sunday while Congressional White House staff were working on the debt ceiling he went to church and stopped to check in on them. He visited Billy Graham in April of last year. The following excerpt was taken from the Washington Times:

            “The conversation was very cordial, very nice,” the younger Mr. Graham said. “When the President got ready to leave, the President prayed for my father; my father prayed for him.”

            Franklin Graham said his father prayed for the nation and that God would give Mr. Obama wisdom in his decisions. The president prayed to thank God for Billy Graham’s life, Franklin Graham said.

            The following is from the Christianpost.com:

            Obama had been wanting to meet Graham for some time, but a busy schedule and other situations delayed the meeting until this past weekend.

            The two had planned to meet in-person back in October 2008 while Obama was still on the campaign trail, but Graham’s health prevented the meeting. Obama connected again with Graham last November when he called to wish him a happy birthday.

            Obama is the twelfth president that Graham has personally known during his public ministry. But Obama is the first sitting president to visit the Graham home.

            Only God knows the President’s heart. As for a dog and pony show, you might be able to find one of those on Christian television. There are hypocrites everywhere. I am one.

          • libertytrain

            Yes, he did meet him for a few minutes on a Sunday afternoon. First he and his wife and several friends spent the weekend golfing and using the luxurious spa at the Grove Park Inn, and it is lovely there. Then the wife got on a separate Air Force one or two and went on to wherever she was going on Sunday, and the pres after his brief visit to Reverend Graham, got on his Air Force one or two and went to wherever he was going next. I know, I got stuck in the traffic because they shut down the expressway for both of their departures. It was good of him to take time out from his weekend to go do a visit at Montreat.

          • Jay

            Off course, and that would the unsuspecting, and the gullible!

        • Jay

          Yes eyes, Christian’s are, leaving the churches, but not for the reasons you think!

          Much has been written regarding Communist methods of infiltration. The standard method was to “bore from within” which involved Communists disguising themselves as loyalists to an organization they sought to undermine. Once gaining entry, they would gradually and subtly change the values and principles of the targeted organization. The process of “change” can take a generation. Communists have exhibited unlimited patience and supreme confidence in the ultimate attainment of their goals. Examples in America include substantial inroads by Communists into organized labor, academia, the legal profession, race relations, cultural institutions, and the government itself.

          When planning to infiltrate, the Communists probe for an institutional weakness to exploit and, in the case of the Catholic Church, perhaps they perceived the weakness to reside in the all-male celibate priesthood. Did Communists send their followers, particularly homosexuals, sexual deviants, and enablers, into seminaries to become priests in order to foster a homosexual culture within the church?

          Homosexuals, practicing their predilections in an overwhelmingly conservative Catholic community, while given protection by well placed minded superiors, could certainly contribute to the undermining of faith in Catholicism and could unquestionably shake the credibility and moral standing of the church itself down to its very foundations. Undermining Catholic authority has been a clear and often stated goal of the Communist left. Speculation regarding how the Communists attempted to implement their program is reasonable and necessary in order to better understand the present situation.

          Two former Communists, Bella Dodd and Manning Johnson, spoke on Communist infiltration of the Catholic Church. Dodd, an important Communist party lawyer, teacher and activist, converted to Catholicism in April 1952 under the tutelage of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen. Stating that the Communist infiltration was so extensive that in the future “you will not recognize the Catholic Church,” Dodd also asserted that:

          “In the 1930′s, we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.”

          “Right now they are in the highest places, and they are working to bring about change in order that the Catholic Church will no longer be effective against Communism.”

          Manning Johnson, a former Communist Party official and author of “Color, Communism and Common Sense” testified in 1953 to the House un-American Activities Committee regarding the infiltration of the Catholic Church:

          “Once the tactic of infiltration of religious organizations was set by the Kremlin … the Communists discovered that the destruction of religion could proceed much faster through infiltration of the (Catholic) Church by Communists operating within the Church itself. The Communist leadership in the United States realized that the infiltration tactic in this country would have to adapt itself to American conditions (Europe also had its cells) and the religious make-up peculiar to this country. In the earliest stages it was determined that with only small forces available to them, it would be necessary to concentrate Communist agents in the seminaries. The practical conclusion drawn by the Red leaders was that these institutions would make it possible for a small Communist minority to influence the ideology of future clergymen in the paths conducive to Communist purposes This policy of infiltrating seminaries was successful beyond even our communist expectations.”

          As a radio talk show host and avid listener to talk radio in Boston, I’ve listened intently to comments by Catholics as the crisis has unfolded. Much has been said regarding the left dominance of the seminaries and a prevalence of the ideas of “liberation theology” which is a biblically contradictory Trojan horse within the Catholic gates. Establishment organs, such as the Boston Globe, continue to wring their hands over the homosexual activities of priests while supporting a homosexual agenda everywhere else. Hopefully, the Catholic flock will wake up and sweep the corruption out of their church in the same way that their founder, Jesus of Nazareth, swept the moneychangers out of the Temple.

          Eyes, what Christian in his right mind, and discerning spirit, would want to stay in such conditions?

          • Jay

            Here is the link for the above article: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/722955/posts

          • Ken Miller

            Wow. I’m speechless. Did I just go back in time?

          • Karolyn

            Yeah, Ken, back to 1952! I personally don’t know any Catholics who have “left” the church. They may not go as much, but they have not given up their faith.

          • Jay

            Sometimes it is required that one go back in time, in order to understand the present, Ken.

  • Dave

    There’s alot of change’s that need to be done. We need the social programs like medicaid, social security, etc. But we need to go back to the way they were first designed. Not let social service’s be a way of life for generations, but a helping hand when a worker is down on his luck or life style, which usually only last for several months. They talk about changing Social Security, but why aren’t they the reps & dem’s talking about paying back all the I O U’s that has been taken from SS since WW2 from both parties plus the interest goes into the general fund for them to use as they see fit. I call that stealing from a private retirement that is run by the Fed. Gov.. Suggestion have all politicians salaries & any staff give 20% of their income to paying this back. Plus anybody that is on SS that they or there parent’s didn’t pay into SS be denied any benefit’s from it. Also stop any Corporate welfare, as it adds up to as much if not more than social service’s. SS= Social Security
    Thank you
    Dave
    Hope to hear your response.

    • Raggs

      If you think that it’s bad now just wait until oblama-care kicks in…
      SS was by design “for the people” not for the government to steal money from you to pay someone else… I can omly imagine what this country will look like in a few years when oblama has stolen billions from citizens in oreder to pay ( pocket ) our money.

  • Mad Max

    This has nothing to do about debating and everything to do about money. These people will reck this country for money. We have a new breed of greed these days. It’s down right suicidal.

    That happens when your government owns you and your president is weak.

    “WAKE UP PEOPLE!”
    Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org )

    FIGHT THE CAUSE – NOT THE SYMPTOM

  • Raggs

    From my standpoint… Arguement is healthy..
    We could put 50 people in a room and not two would agree on the same issue.
    Name calling is a by product of disagreement, disagreement is a by product of man.

  • CJM

    I would disagree that the art of debate is dead–the problem is that we have not elected adults to our political offices. Rather than voting for what the individual stands for, many will hear only what they want to hear and go for the rhetoric spewing from their mouths. No one wants to openly question and for those who do, the enamored ones shout down the person desiring a reasonable, honest answer. Everyone shares the guilt for what has happened in the United States; we, like folks in other countries, placed too much trust in those elected and, although we privately questioned what was going on, how many actually contacted their representatives and demanded an answer? How many citizens are demanding their State Governors and legislators to recall the rogues in Washington? I would hazard a guess that there are very few. Citizens to have certain political rights that go beyond the voting process…and we should be exercising those rights in order to send the legislators a strong message that their wining and dining days are over…either get down to legitimate business or so long. We don’t have to kowtow to george soros and we don’t have to sit back and let Congress continue to give passes for the illigetimate actions taken by the current administration. And we don’t have to let the yellow journalists get by with their failure to honor the truth–our power is in our consumerism and the ability to show a united front to those who would dishonor our US Constitution and Declaration of Independence. We have a voice and we are not effectively using it. One person alone will not be heard in the din of chaos; it is like prayer–there is power in the sheer numbers who believe.

  • chuckb

    mad max, this is just due for the bolhsheviks, they planted an illegal in the white house, he only appears to be intelligent, he has no idea what to do beside raise tax. pelosi and reid are on the same level, they are responsible for where the country is at present and they with barry have no clue how to get out of this mess. the republican party has at their head two leaders who are just as inept as reid and company.
    some one is going to have to step up and lead and i don’t see anyone out there at present.

  • Kevin

    Bob,

    I agree with your comments regarding debate these days. Having been raised in the “rich” lifestyle, I had the opportunity to go to good schools (read private) where I was able to take debate classes. Now, I’m amongst the “poor”, on government assistance. So I’ve seen both sides…Luckily, I still think (and vote) with my brain. It is an old trick, the LEFT AND RIGHT these days resort to the “have you stopped beating your wife” debate rhetoric, such as calling right wingers “racist, etc.” or left wingers “treehuggers, etc.” Impossible to argue with…

    Also, good that people (or at least you) have recognized Lincoln for what he was, (in my humble opinion) a worse president than Carter, in as much as I believe he was the beginning of the end for States rights. Interesting that if you look at the HISTORICAL record, he didn’t seem to be much concerned with slavery until he decided to run for office…

  • chuckb

    kevin, lincoln belonged to or was sympathetic with the society that was formed back in the days of jefferson to ship the blacks out of this country. i believe his stance against slavery was all political.

  • Raggs

    So I’m curious… Who won? ( debt debacle ).

    If you are one of those that think that oblama won…
    If your one that think that the republicans won…

    Funny how it came to one party or the other “winning”..
    So what is the “win” for America?

    Did America “win” something?… I jest NOT.

    • Ken Miller

      The republicans won. The poor and the middle class lost.

      • http://deleted Claire

        Personally I don’t see either party as a “winner.” They are still losers in many ways.

        • Ken Miller

          That makes us losers as well. They are our elected representatives.

          • Ken Miller

            Actually, I shouldn’t be so negative. The filthy rich won! Let’s hear it for the millionaires and billionairs! HIP HIP HOORAY!!!

          • Jay

            Come on Ken, if the greedy and irresponsible politicians were better stewards of the revenues they collect, we wouldn’t be so obsessed with the rich. Btw, there are a considerable number of “rich people” that are very generous. Unfortunately, the main stream media will never mention that, for obvious reasons!

  • TIME

    Bob,

    Again your blog is very well written, I enjoyed it very much. I may add that at time’s we all get tired of the babbling idiots and just lay it on the line.

    I think thats a good thing, I have never felt that being “politicaly correct” is a value that aids Americans in any way shape or form.
    I strongly feel it divides us more.

    I think its best that if someone thinks I am the N word, they be honest and just call me that to my face. Hey, they are just letters that make up a simple word. Has it had any effect on me? No..
    I just had to worked “smarter” to make it.

    • Raggs

      Time… Are you spelling the “N” word….

    • Angel Wannabe

      Well said TIME!

    • Tom Raines

      right there are consequences to our words,this is what got a lot of americans in the 1800,s lynched,but that doesnt mean free speech should be outlawed,its through our freedom of expression that we eventually work things out for all,once a long time ago free speech was a hanging offense or justification for a firing squad or long term imprisonment,it was one of the main primers that ignited the revoloutinary war ,it was the elites in england more concerned with the riches that came out of unfair trade practice ,ignoring the will of the american colonist,we must change course and start promoting the health and general welfare of all the people of this nation and not just the rich elites who want to hold onto thier wealth and increase thier power

  • Raggs

    If you really want to get on the liberals / progressives nerves just tell them a fact or two about their agenda of BIG government control…. If you do that they Choke-up and they have nothing further to say.

    • Raggs

      A comparison to a control freak…. Hitler…. Yeah I can think of several… I seriously add oblama in this realm of contempt… Notice I always SPELL it oblama, being a lack of respect for this being and occupant of what once was a high office ( many years ago )…

      Respecting a liar is just plain simply not in my scope of daily activities…

      • Ken Miller

        Raggs, God bless you.

    • Ken Miller

      I’m all choked up.

  • Raggs

    Oh the PROUD pea”cock” nancy pelosi is struting her stuff on you tube as a victory yet again in the form of we have to read the bill first..
    Oh but thet passed it… now we fellow Americans can take a breath of foul air.

    • Raggs

      This smells like the back seat of Casey Anthonys car after a few weeks of dry rot from the white house. And the sad thing of it is the liberals will buy every inch of it.

      • Ken Miller

        Well before this liberal buys what you say, I want to know how you know what the back seat of Casey Anthony’s car smells like? Were you there and did you smell it? Are you just making an assumption based upon what you heard other people say on TV? :-)

        • Kate8

          Ken Miller – It’s not much of a stretch of imagination to figure what her car would smell like after keeping the dead body of her child in the trunk for a long time.

          • Jana

            Kate8,
            Also a police cadaver dog picked up on the scent. Sounds like this might be a little confusing to poor Ken.

  • robert

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    IN MEMORY OF BOBBY F KENNEDY
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    READ PAGE 30-31 53 AND 78 JAMES.D WATSON (DNA) THE SECRET OFLIFE THANK YOU AND

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    ould wish to beat are country dont se what he doing as a paytreit

    • chuckb

      robert, gets some rest, take a break.

    • Jay

      Huh?

      • Ken Miller

        Jay, you took the word right out of my mouth! “Huh?”

    • Angel Wannabe

      Robert, WOW!__Pop Fly into left field!!!! ….Whew!

  • chuckb

    ken miller, it smells like the bill the gop congress just voted on. it smells like another liberal victory to put this country even deeper in debt. it smells like the media gloating over their victory. it smells like what the people who voted for this bill smells when barry stops too quick. it smells

    • Ken Miller

      I may disagree with you on political views, but I do like your sense of humor!

  • Elevenarrows

    I wonder if some of the communication difficulties nowadays are due to the growing use of high tech devices. I wonder if we’ve all lost some of the tolerance for others’ opinions after having to talk to so many robots whenever we try to call a business. Perhaps we’ve forgotten how to communicate because most people do so through Facebook, email, texting, etc. I, for one, am weary of it all. I NEVER text or use any social networking. The closest I get is when I post on this site. I can’t stand trying to carry on a civil conversation with a texting-addict. When people (adult or kids) come to my home and text or take cell phone calls while engaged in conversation with me, I respectfully tell them that I will have to confiscate the phone until they leave. Even the worst addict has quickly put his phone away rather than risk confiscation. Once during afternoon tea, I could not understand why a lovely young girl’s responses to questions were so stupid. I found out later, she was texting under the table. Absolutely ridiculous. Newsflash to everyone: all of us do not feel your life is so important that we want a play-by-play rendition of it. You really can have dinner without knowing what your friends on Facebook are wearing or doing. Perhaps simply putting away some of the devices would go a long way in starting civil discussions again. As for the name-calling, I find that those who have no substance to share on a particular subject, but know instinctively that they disagree with the moral premise will often resort to name calling or even expletives. As I read the posts, I usually scan for profanity and just ignore those posts because they are usually all fluff and nonsense.

    • Tom Raines

      so the only answer is because you dont like this everyone should have it restricted or taken from them because you think its bad for the millionsof americans who do it ,and when the technology is used against your ideas,then its bad and its wrong and should be stopped,now freedom of the press should only be protected for the professionals and only the government can decide who,s right.
      This doesnt sound like america where everyone is created equal,it sounds like a dictatorship,communism or a monarchy,but not america where our rights are protected by the constitution.

    • Ken Miller

      It was actually quite refreshing and pleasurable to read your comment!
      I totally sympathize with you. I was in a fast food restaurant awhile back and a trainee who was supposed to be taking care of me was too distracted by her answering a text that her trainer had to come over and serve me. I didn’t see the young woman again after that.

      I am a teacher who is so relieved to be currently out of the traditonal classroom environment. I was so disgusted with having to deal with students trying to use their cellphones to text, to listen to music, to take pictures, and to even look at porn on the web! The problem mostly stems from permissive or disconnected parents, but also from a permissive school board policy.

      I am currently teaching off campus in a lock-up facility for tough and troubled juvenile boys. What a relief! No cell phones!

  • ONTIME

    We are all witnnessing the exposure of the long time tactics of the left to emotionalize any issue by claiming “crisis” when there is none and totally ignoring fact and evicence to put off any solution to problems they themselves cause. Much of what they do to gain footholds is now starting to fail because the information is there and their hate for your questions id a disaster to their agenda of constant lies and scams, they have overplayed their hand at this insidious game and now are resorting to hysterics, voter cheating and a stream of lies that make the opposition a enemy instead of a rival….We need to Re-Pare this government and put the civil back into public servant.

    • Tom Raines

      Is that why the republicans are saying theres a debt crises and that social security and medicare is in crises and we should protect wall street from crises,I think this time the rhettoric was created by the republicans to get the public to accept thier venomus attcks on social security and medicre,both sides distort the facts to do thier elites bidding,

  • don

    we need to stop talking and start doing you get a million people in washington and theyll take notice

  • Tom Raines

    you know its the democrats trying to envoke the fairness doctrine thats such an afront to free speech when the republicans have talk radio and the internet working in thier favor,and these are the types of articles that we expect to see in a liberal news paper,or hear on CNN,but when the same public oppinion is used against the republicans to stop them from gutting medicare and social security,then its rational debate is dieing,public discorse is too loud,well this time the people used it too keep both parties in check and now thier both turning on the people and free speech,because it kept them from cutting the under the table back room deal that either of them could have.Too make a long story short both party elites see the will of the people getting to strong and neither can handle it,because it scares them that public is becomming to educated and they hate all these many new,news sources and the access the public has to thier elected representatives.
    Now both sides are gonna start beaten the drums loudly that say ordinary americans are too dum to know whats in thier best interest and that kind of power is too dangerous for everyday americans to possess,but all it is the american people getting tired of being treated like sheep or beef being lead to the slaughter,being force feed by the established elites and ignored by our representatives,they see we the people being forgotten,a government for the people by the people,shall not perish from this earth.
    The process is just fine,because we can still vent our frustrations out with speeches,ink pens and computer keys,to loudly spell out our differences in the townhall meetings,instead of with armed revolution of wich the outcomes are unsure,power changes that are uncertain and dictatorial.
    I think its wonderful more and more ordinary americans are speaking out for themselves,are some people gonna carry it too far (probably)but thats the risk we have to take and deal with to keep our representative republic alive and working for all.

  • Bert Cundle

    The Doctors have made Catholene Gifford into a robot! Obomba as the remote!

    • Thinking About

      I would hope you are not referring to Gabby Gifford and if you areaybe you should spend the rest of your life in her place. You just might be one of the sickest post ever. Shame on you.

  • bob wire

    well it late, You got a lot of praise with this thread Mr. Livingston and then they proceeded to ignore your Thesis statement early on and continues thu the whole darn thread, bashing and demonizing.

    It’s hopeless ~ they are people with little to do but whine and complain about “others”. They need something to do. something simpler then politics. ` It seem politics has just become a interactive , spectator sport of sorts, no brake, no steering wheel and everybody wants to drive.

    It’s easy to get sucked in and be a part of the problem instead of any solution.

    Nite

    bw

    • denniso

      It is sad…most people on here have nothing at all to say and only want to smear,malign and insult w/ name calling. I’ve said for over a year that what most of the posters here need is to get out of their house and do something productive and helpful…for their family,neighbors or town…volunteer,clean up,mentor. DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE and quit all the bitching and moaning.

      • Dr. smith

        looks who talking, you sure as hell seem to have a lot of time. how the hell you know wht I do with my time and what charitable work I do?

      • Jay

        Look who’s talking, denniso, the unemployed troll that has nothing better to do then encourage people to live a better life than the pathetic one he lives!

        • denniso

          You just keep making up ‘facts’,like most rightwing blowhards do. As I’ve repeated here for 2 yrs,I’ve created my own jobs and career for 95% of my adult life…hiring people and doing actual work,unlike most of you.

          Tell me,what ‘work’ did you do?

          • Jay

            Sure denniso, whatever you say!

          • denniso

            Well, why am I not surprised? You make up lies about other people and then you are afraid to answer a question about the kind of work you’ve done…so typical of you people…cowardly,smearing,lying,hypocritical.

          • Jay

            I’m self-employed, denniso. That’s all you need to know!

          • denniso

            So am I,as I have been for all but 1 yr of my adult life…so quit lying about my work life and I’ll assume you’re telling the truth about yours.

  • Dr. smith

    alas, the wonderful world wide web, giving courage to cowards and intelligence to dolts all across the country. Now, we have to hear from the misinformed, illiterate posing as informed contributors. But it’s not only on the internet, the dribble you hear all over is frightening. It use to be you could engage in conversation, try now and your immediately dismissed as a right-winger, racist, homophobe, etc. or any numerous ad hominem attack.

    I use to try to contribute, but it’s become a battle against the flood gate of ignorance. Public education and mass media has accomplished it’s inherent goal, the dumbing down and denigration of our society.

    They can’t be reasoned with, for, as Ben Franklin said, “You cannot reason a man out of a position he has not reasoned himself into.” Emotion is the seducer who charms them, and reason changes minds, not hearts.

    I’ve thrown in the towel, I keep my mouth shut and just shake my head. If your a male, this advice is especially important because if you get into a physically confrontation, and you happen to one of the rare males in decent physical shape, and you defend yourself and injure the enraged liberal, well, they become the “victim” and guess what, your the perpetrator and of course, out come the lawyers.

    • denniso

      Well it looks like you’re on the right site. Most of these people are your buddies,so you can complain all you want here about liberals and ‘political correctness’,and feel right at home.

      • Jay

        Troll!!

        • JeffH

          ;)

          • denniso

            Just like I’ve always said…rightwingers,contrary to the opinions of many liberals,are so good w/ language.

  • Pedro

    denniso – it is so wonderful to be joined on this site by such an enlightened being such as yourself – I know it’s difficult for you to put in words your disdain for those of us whom have no education or understanding of the truth such as you bring to us. It’s great to have “screaming liberals”, such as you, to beat down other’s opinions and tell us how we should think – kinda’ like that statement you made about exchange of ideas – no more need for that with your overbearing, control-like demeanor.

    • libertytrain

      You said that so eloquently -

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