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Christmas Cheer With A Side Of Liberty

December 23, 2011 by  

Christmas Cheer With A Side Of Liberty

The Christmas season means multiple gatherings with family and friends, filled with holiday cheer. This weekend will be the culmination, as many people cart off to multiple destinations to have wonderful festive meals and enjoy lively conversations with loved ones. But there is one thing that can turn any holiday gathering into a disaster; and given the heightened political awareness over the coming election, it may be hard to avoid.

Some of you may already be thinking about that one holiday destination that you wish you could avoid. Maybe you have a devastatingly liberal in-law; or you’re going to see a relative who was once a bright kid, now home from college for the holidays with a head stuffed full of ideas from left-leaning professors; or maybe you will see the loved one with whom you always end up entangled in a political argument. Whatever the case, getting into a heated political discussion wherein everyone wants the last word can put a damper on the festivities.

For many of us who are liberty-minded or who live according to our conservative principles, sitting idly by as one of our relatives — whom we will affectionately call Joe Liberal — spouts off his most recent ideas about the fundamental importance of addressing global warming, re-electing Barack Obama or continuing the OWS protests is hardly an option. But how are we to approach Joe in such a way that doesn’t send the conversation spiraling out of control into a full-fledged Christmas-dinner argument? That may be the oldest question in political discussion.

If you are interested in getting your point across — and maybe winning a few hearts and minds along the way — as you tell your wayward friend or relative of the importance of the Constitution, conservative values and being prepared, you may be able to do so with some basic philosophy and tactics of debate.

The first and probably most important thing to do when discussing a sensitive issue is to be wary of your emotions. Nothing can make a person look ill-informed like an emotional outburst, so stick to what you know and discuss your side of the issue calmly and with reason. If you avoid emotional outbursts, you will also make it easier to avoid the death knell of many debaters: logical fallacies. A logical fallacy is, to put it broadly, an error in reason while trying to convince another person to take your position in a discussion. There is a very long list of fallacies that pertain to philosophical debate, but being able to avoid just the most common ones can make you a very effective communicator.

A list of five logical fallacies to avoid and examples of some your liberal relative may commit:

Slippery Slope: This is a conclusion based on the premise that if A happens, eventually through a series of small steps (B,C,D…),  Z will happen, too. So if we don’t want Z to occur, we must avoid A. Example:

If Ron Paul is elected, he will take us back to the 18th century and bring back slavery.

Hasty Generalization: Is a conclusion based on insufficient or biased evidence. Example:

Some OWS protesters showed up because they lost their jobs, so they must have suffered injustice because of a system stacked against them.

Begging The Claim: Making a claim that is not validated. Example:

Coal is filthy and it pollutes the Earth and we can do everything we do with it by using green energy, so we should ban coal.

Ad Populum: An emotional appeal to a positive (such as patriotism, religion, democracy) or negative (such as terrorism or fascism) concept rather than the real issue at hand. Example:

The government passed the Defense Authorization Act, which allows Americans to be detained indefinitely, because some Americans are terrorists linked to al-Qaida. If you loved America, you’d support the act.

Red Herring: This is a diversionary tactic that avoids the key issue, usually by dodging opposing arguments rather than addressing them. Example:

We need tighter gun-control laws, because if we had them, the Justice Department would have never needed to implement Operation Fast and Furious to track illegal guns.

This list of fallacies to avoid is by no means exhaustive, but chances are you will hear and recognize one of these in a holiday conversation if there is any political discussion. Imagine young Joe Liberal’s surprise when all of his professor’s talk about how conservatives are anti-intellectual is shattered as you point out his ad populum, and therefore invalid, argument when he tries to explain to you that not supporting OWS means not being a patriot in support of the 1st Amendment.

Also very important to avoiding argument and possibly winning over a few liberal minds is sticking to what you know. Simply saying something is right or wrong “just because” will infuriate; but being able to provide examples of why, using the vast knowledge acquired over a lifetime, can change the tune.

Sticking with what you know goes hand in hand with allowing the person with whom you are speaking to use what they know to reach a conclusion that is in line with your point. This is similar — albeit a simplified description — of the method of teaching created by the classic Greek philosopher Socrates. Using the Socratic Method, you present each of your points as a question rather than a command and build upon each of the other person’s answers with another question until they have reached your point for you. If you use this method and are able to avoid fallacious questions, you will have built a solid argument and possibly learn things even you didn’t know about the point you sought to make.

If you are at all able to avoid talking politics at holiday gatherings, do so. This is the time of year that should be set aside for loved ones and joy, a time that should be difficult to be fouled up even by incompetent lawmakers, a woefully inept Presidential Administration and an election season that is heating up. You do, however, need to be prepared. The liberals are.

Planned Parenthood recently posted an article on their website titled “Talking Turkey: 8 Easy Steps for Discussing Reproductive Health and Justice at the Holiday Table” in an effort to bring words like contraceptive, abortion and rape to your holiday table and help your liberal relative convince you why you should support abortion. The article, before giving ideas about winning the debate, begins:

The holidays are upon us! Going home or getting together with relatives for the holidays is always a stressful time, but if your family members are the type who regularly protest outside the local Planned Parenthood, you know that this holiday is going to be a doozy.

And if you thought Barack Obama was going to allow you to escape during the holidays from the reality that he will be running for President again in 2012, you were wrong. Last week, his campaign announced that it was a perfect time to donate to the cause of destroying America in the name of a conservative as a Christmas gift. Obama supporters were also told to threaten to donate $3 to Obama’s campaign every time their conservative loved ones “say something outrageous” about the President during holiday gatherings. Fortunately, it should be quite easy to make logical arguments against Obama at this point and avoiding fallacies makes any argument decidedly not “outrageous.”

Merry Christmas and good luck! We at Personal Liberty Digest™ hope you are able to bring all of your liberal family and friends to the cause of freedom, liberty and Constitutionally guaranteed rights during the holidays. We may need them in the coming elections.

Sam Rolley

Staff writer Sam Rolley began a career in journalism working for a small town newspaper while seeking a B.A. in English. After learning about many of the biases present in most modern newsrooms, Rolley became determined to find a position in journalism that would allow him to combat the unsavory image that the news industry has gained. He is dedicated to seeking the truth and exposing the lies disseminated by the mainstream media at the behest of their corporate masters, special interest groups and information gatekeepers.

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  • s c

    Let’s cover the bases here, Sam. Have either a a) Merry Christmas! or b) bah, frickin’ humbug. After Bonehead’s about-face, ‘b’ sounds like a better option.
    Those of you who have families, love them, nourish them, tell them the truth about where our nation is headed, and NEVER give up the good fight.
    Just because our so-called ‘leaders’ are utterly clueless doesn’t mean we have to live in the same moonbat cave with them.
    Here’s to hand-rolled cigars, rare scotch, women who put love before convenience, men who put honor before a reputation and most of all, a FREE nation that is FREE from users and abusers who aren’t fit to live in this once-great land.

    • Warrior

      sc – remember, it is the Christmas Season (can I say that?) and our “masters” just showed us their generosity. Thank You “Master”.

    • Old Henry

      s c:

      I don’t think our “leaders” are clueless. I think they know exactly what they are doing and they think most of us are clueless.

      Gonna be an interesting train wreck.

      • Kate8

        Old H – I think you are exactly right.

        And our “leaders” work very hard at keeping us clueless. Only those of us who are determined to sift through the misinformation, and ferret out the lack of information, have been able to come up with an idea of what these rats are up to.

        The problem is, getting the mind-numbed to open their eyes.

        Merry Christmas, Old H, and all of you. We need to really enjoy this one, even if just to show the PTB that they can’t dampen our spirits in spite of their best efforts. :)

        • Robert Smith

          Yes Kate, I can agree to: “The problem is, getting the mind-numbed to open their eyes.”

          That pot ain’t gonna cause the end of America, but the war on it has put far too many in jail and deprived so many of their rights.

          That same sex merrage isn’t going to get your son or daughter to marry the German Sheppard next door unless there is something really seriously wrong in how you brought them up. In fact it makes ZERO difference. Four people, two boys and two girls. It’s OK for the two boys to marry each of the girls. Two couples if the boys marry each other and the girls marry each other. Still two couples.

          Yup, lots of folks need to see.

          Rob

        • Old Henry

          Thank you Kate, and Merry Christmas to you!

          Speaking of TPTB and their shake-up watch this Brasscheck TV clip regarding Ron Paul!

          http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/6299.html

          • Joe H.

            Old Henry,
            Why do they all title that bad dude “JOE liberal?? Why not SAM liberal, or Robert liberal??? Liberal I AIN’T!!

          • Old Henry

            JoeH:

            LOL! I think it may be due to the Commie jug-eared’s little hip-pocket mornon…

            Have you heard of any primary challenge to the “Weeper” who sold us our – again – with the SS tax vote? That SOB needs to be GONE.

  • Alex Frazier

    Socratic method is one way to put it. It’s also called rhetoric, later fleshed out by Aristotle. The art of rhetoric, as you say, involves questions. But the point of a rhetorical question is that the answer is always self-evident. It also takes the most extreme conclusions in order to break down an opponent’s alleged position (and it must be an alleged position, because rhetoric is used to force your opponent to defeat his own argument or believed conclusion by means of his own answers to questions about his position. The conclusion, when your opponent is mistaken, is that they find their position is not at all what they claimed their position was).

    For the record, rhetoric rarely works online. People online ignore rhetorical questions. They are able to hide behind a computer screen and not answer the questions that would destroy their argument.

    • Robert Smith

      Hi Alex,

      Can you show us ANY examples of someone marrying the German Sheppard next door because gay merrage is allowed?

      Rob

      • Robert Smith

        That’s the “slippery slope” argument from the right.

        Quite frankly I think the divorces by Rush and Newt have done more to devalue christian marriage than what any gay has done.

        As far as civil marriage goes… It’s a contract. Nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with religion. I’m all for a set duration, 1 year, two years, or any other commitment the couple wants to make, including life.

        Rob

        • Old Henry

          Life without parole…

        • Kate8

          Robert Smith – It’s incremental nudging, guiding us into a world of continuing amorality.

          Now that the mainstreaming of homosexuality is being accomplished, the next agenda (which has already been on-going) is the mainstreaming of pedophelia and beastiality. The idea is toward an anything-goes society, because that is the way of the elite.

          I’m sure you find all this quite amusing, knowing your contempt for all things decent.

          • Robert Smith

            Posted: “the next agenda (which has already been on-going) is the mainstreaming of pedophelia and beastiality. The idea is toward an anything-goes society, ”

            You didn’t read the article, did you?

            From the article: “Slippery Slope: This is a conclusion based on the premise that if A happens, eventually through a series of small steps (B,C,D…), Z will happen, too. So if we don’t want Z to occur, we must avoid A.”

            Yup, slippery slope arguments don’t work for the right either.

            Rob

          • Robert Smith

            From Kate8: “The idea is toward an anything-goes society, because that is the way of the elite.”

            No, it’s called FREEDOM for adults in America.

            I find it very sad that there are some who claim they support “freedom” but then proceed to take it away from others through mandating their religion through laws in America.

            Clue: Your freedom of religion ends before it impacts another. It’s that simple.

            Rob

          • Kate8

            Rob – We aren’t talking about just consenting adults, bozo. We’re talking about helpless children and animals, who have no choice.

            Why don’t you just go and play with your own kind.

            “Woe unto them who call good evil, and evil good.”

            “It’s better to have a millstone placed around your neck and be hurled into the sea, than to harm a single hair on the head of one of these little ones.”

          • Karolyn

            Robert – That’s like the Muslim clerics in Egypt who came to the conclusion that if women drive, there will be an increase in prostitution and homosexuality.

          • Kate8

            No, Karolyn, it’s not like that.

            This has all been planned out for many, many years, for us to be incrementally socially engineered. This is NOT an if this, then that scenario, but a deliberate descent into increasing depravity. We are to have no boundaries whatsoever. It is already being referred to as “intergenerational sex”. Oh, that sounds so much more sophisticated and open-minded, doesn’t it?

            Many of the elite are gays and pedophiles. They want us to be that way, too.

            Just because you liberals fail to do any research, and think everything that happens is just natural progression, doesn’t mean that we aren’t being steered. Just watch how the media works to change our thinking. You people lap it up, too, falling for every move they make.

          • eddie47d

            You really do go off into extremes Kate.You try hard to equate homosexuality with pedophilia when it is seldom related. Bestiality has no relationship to any sex. Those people are in an extreme minority and almost no one accepts it. Keep your strong moral values for they are welcome. Yet don’t be pulling these extreme and rare issues out of the air in trying to demonizing whole segments of the human race.

          • Kate8

            eddie – You and your cohorts are such simpletons.

            These plans are spoken of right out of the mouths of the ruling elite.

            But than, I have no need to defend myself on this. Just stay tuned and you will find that I am right.

            http://www.dakotavoice.com/2011/08/time-to-normalize-pedophilia-firsthand-report-on-b4u-act-conference/

            There are many articles on this. Don’t take my word…see for yourself.

          • Old Henry

            eddie, eddie, eddie:

            There is NOTHING about Kate that is extreme. She is God-oriented which makes liberals / communists extreme.

          • Robert Smith

            From kate8: “There are many articles on this [pedophelia]. Don’t take my word…see for yourself.”

            Yes Kate, the church has dealt with it for years and years. That bunch of christians seem to have written the book on letting pedophiles get away with it.

            As far as a bunch of creeps on Baltimore… That’s it, just a bunch of creeps and criminals IMO, just like the priests who molest kids.

            Rob

          • eddie47d

            Old Henry; She is beyond extreme on some issues. There is not a conspiracy that she doesn’t fall for.

        • Joe H.

          leave it to Robbie!!! I can hear the couples vows NOW!! “I vow to love you forever…Or untill someone else comes along, whichever comes first”!!! We’ll just call it ACORN love!!!

  • Alex

    Other helpful Holiday Hints to avoid the boorish, know-it-alls that can spoil a nice Christmas dinner as quickly as an under-cooked turkey:

    When Cousin Dick, the angry ex-Marine who lost his leg when a fellow US mercenary in Vietnam mistook him for a weak grandmother, complains about the Liberal Bias in Academia, remind him that if he had gone to college to learn rather than to another peoples’ country to destroy them, he’d still have two legs.

    When Aunt Dixie says she doesn’t remember segregation as being “all that bad”, remind her of the family Christmas card when she was three years old, caroling gleefully with other White families beneath the swaying body of a lynched Black man.

    When Glowering Dad says they can have his guns when they pry them from his cold, dead hands, shoot him in the head (HAA! C’mon, just a Ben Crystal-style joke, ya’know?).

    When hard-luck Brother-in-Law Sam shows up with his big bag of Wal-Mart Xmas X-Box excess for the extended family children, remind him that his job was sacrificed by the Capitalists so that he could spend his unemployment money on cheap, imported goods, like the crap in the bag he’s holding.

    When weird neighbor Hazel stops in for coffee, whining about the how the country is going down the sewey-hole because of the “Progressive Liberal Agenda”, point out to her that she is able to vote because of Liberals, that her 8-hr day/40-hr week came to her courtesy of the Socialists, that the lake did not catch fire this year thanks to the EPA, and that the Social Security check and Medicare coverage, the only things keeping her from sleeping under a pier or death, are gifts from the Progressives.

    And when Grandpa lets loose a blast of gas and calls the President a “Communist”, remind the fuzzy old man that he thought the same about Elvis Pressley and color TV.

    Anyway, Merry Christmas! God Bless Us, Each and Everyone!

    • Alex

      Ooops….sorry about that orphan comma betwixt ‘boorish’ and ‘know-it-alls’…

    • DaveH

      Thanks Alex, for showing the readers a view into your Liberal soul. Not a pretty view. Certainly not one of compassion. Nor knowledge.
      Read this book to get a clue, that is — if you really want one:
      http://www.amazon.com/How-Capitalism-Saved-America-Pilgrims/dp/1400083311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324650532&sr=8-1

      • Old Henry

        Oops, DaveH. You slipped up. You do not believe in souls. Hjowever, I get you point and it’s dead on.

        ARe the kids / grandkids coming home for a visit?

        • Kate8

          Nice catch, Old H!

          Could DaveH be getting soft in his old age?

          Nah.

          • Old Henry

            JOeH:

            Maybe we could trap it, skin it and make a coat out of it! (With the EPA’s permission of course)

        • DaveH

          No, but most of you do, lol.
          It was a figure of speech. Would you rather I said Liberal Character?

          • Joe H.

            DaveH,
            Does such an animal exist??? liberal CHARACTER????? I don’t think so!! It even SOUNDS alien!!

    • Old Henry

      Alex:

      The foreign national conducting an occupation of our WH is a Communist.

      Spawned of Communists, raised by Communists, educated by Communists, mentored by Communists and began his political career in the home of an avowed Communist domestic terrorist and has filled our WH with his fellow Communists.

    • Robert Smith

      From Alex: “HAA! C’mon, just a Ben Crystal-style joke, ya’know?).”

      Careful Alex… There is a double standard.

      It’s OK if you do that sort of thing from the right but if it’s from the left…

      And the arguments above about how to fend off a “liberal.” Well it works better for liberals because the facts are stronger from the liberal perspective. For example… Intelligent design!

      There was an excellent program on NOVA the other day, “What Darwin Never Knew.” It can be found at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/darwin-never-knew.html

      It tracks evolution through DNA and it proves what Darwen taught us.

      Rob

      Rob

      • Joe H.

        Awww, Just go write the dam check!!!

        • Joe H.

          How forgetful of me, Merry CHRISTmas robbie!!!

    • Grey Wolf

      Just remember the literally untold number of people who lost their lives, were tortured physically and psychologically and lost everything they owned so you could make such an outrageous comment.
      Freedom is not free. As a matter of fact, there is nothing free in this world. Everything has a price to be paid. Are you willing to pay the price, even it would me your life?

  • http://naver Samurai

    We just take the 24 – 26 and make it free from talking about politics, religion, Obama bin Laden, etc. This keeps up the cheer and keeps arguements to a bare minimum. Merry Christmas everyone from Sook Young and I. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    P.S. Let’s keep Christ in Christmas.

    • Alex

      You cannot spell ‘Christmas’ WITHOUT ‘Christ’, or didn’t they teach you that in your little Samurai class?

      • DaveH

        What did they teach you, Alex? If it was respect for your fellow human beings, it certainly didn’t sink in.

        • Joe H.

          DaveH,
          He and eddie were both out sick on that day and the day they handed out BRAINS!!!

          • Robert Smith

            Shucks Mr. Livingston, how does Joe H.’s above contribute to the discussion?

            Rob

          • eddie47d

            I see Joe has taken over the job as puke master. How many spoonfuls have you taken today Joe?

          • libertytrain

            rob – eddie’s is a brilliant post?

          • JeffH

            libertytrain, has eddie redifined the meaning of “brilliance”?

            Stupid is as stupid does
            Forrest Gump

          • libertytrain

            jeff – :)

      • eddie47d

        YOU might gain respect Dave when you start giving it and take care of your own mental problems instead of telling others to seek help. Get the drift!

        • DaveH

          The drift is, Eddie, that you and your kind are always the first to start with the personal attacks. And in your case particularly, Eddie, slandering other people.
          If you want respect, Eddie, then earn it. I don’t respect disrespectful people.

        • eddie47d

          You are a champion in the name calling department Dave so why do you want to lie so much and so close to our Lord’s birth. It’s a shame that you make atheists look bad. Now go and have a Happy New Year grumpy.

          • DaveH

            Show me, Eddie, one unprovoked episode of name-calling on my part.

          • eddie47d

            Oh Please! Enough of your coyness. When don’t you? You do it to me all the time and your petty bickering with Alex on the other article only proves it more. I do realize that Alex did have some strange comments and was even pettier.

          • DaveH

            I said “unprovoked”, Eddie. And you deserve no respect. You lost mine a long time ago.

          • eddie47d

            Ditto…Dave! Now put those fangs away!

    • Robert Smith

      From samurai: “P.S. Let’s keep Christ in Christmas.”

      If you want to. Actually most civilizations are responding to the solstice. The church hijacked lots of existing hollidays.

      Rob

      • libertytrain

        says the Grinch again who tried to steal Christmas — doesn’t matter rob…

      • eddie47d

        Was that the Grinch or the Gingrich who stole Christmas? Have a Merry one you all.

        • Old Henry

          RALMAO eddie! That was a goodn.

        • libertytrain

          well, you’re right, in my post I, of course, meant rob who is always trying to put a damper on just about anything that relates to Christianity – always generalizing that it is all evil —- but Gingrich – he kind of reminds me of a Grinch kind of fellow as well but I think many of us already said that in the last few weeks.

          • libertytrain

            In fact someone kindly posted a funny YouTube parody that he done on The Grinch (Gingrich) that stole Christmas. He posted the video that he had done. J Jones was his name -
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=373wcoVen88

          • Robert Smith

            Actually there are a bunch of festivals both hystoricaly and contemporary. Agian, “christmas” was hijacked by the church to keep the dates of celebration consistant for the masses. There is NO firm date for when Jesus was actually born.

            For a list of winger festivals / celebrations check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winter_festivals

            BTW, that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t follow what you want to, but don’t expect those of us who have no interest in your brutal god to participate if we don’t want to.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            rob, I realize and understand that you don’t or simply can’t grasp that, yes, so many if not all of us are aware of all these things…but that doesn’t change faith in God or Christ. Holidays and events are just symbols. Doesn’t matter who or when folks throughout time celebrated their own beliefs and if they intersected or were borrowed, what difference does it really make? None that I can see. And I read all the stuff you’re talking about 40 plus years ago in books in our school library and we even discussed it at length in high school theology. It was a kind of cool Catholic Girls College Preparatory school that encouraged people to learn and think even if it might conflict with something we were taught in grade school or what other people were afraid of discovering…I’m sorry you have a brutal God. Mine/is was a smart cookie. All Knowing I think was something we learned back in second grade…not brutal, forgiving, loving. Again, sorry about your brutal upbringing — poor sad man you are.

      • Joe H.

        It’s the end of the month again, robbie. That time again!!! Start writing!!!

    • Robert Smith

      Samurai says: “P.S. Let’s keep Christ in Christmas.”

      Merry Xmas, samurai.

      BTW, the christians stole the season from previous religions that celebrated the solstice.

      Rob

      • Joe H.

        Merry CHRISTmas robbie!!!

        • Joe H.

          Oh, and your usual safe and befuddled new year as well!!!

          • Kate8

            Merry CHRISTmas, Joe H.

            And God bless.

  • Michael J.

    The times we live in are reminiscent of the civil war in which brothers were sometimes pitted against brother and fathers against sons. Though the situation has not yet evolved to the level of blood-letting amongst my sibblings due to an unspoken vow of oral chastity, if the plight of the OWS’ers and a wish for their continued persistence should arise in the midst of Christmas Dinner, I think I shall at first appear to agree, and as a show of support I will stand up, drop my drawers and take a dump in the cranberry sauce dish, unless there happens to be a police car handy. Talk about shock and awe!

    Of course I would never act with such barbarity, but we all have these thoughts, only some carry them out.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, WITH A SIDE OF LIBERTY AND HOLD THE SOCIALISM.

    • Alex

      WOW! Really?!?

      All of you Fright Wingers really have thoughts about taking “a dump in the cranberry sauce dish”?

      Whoaa….I knew you people were sick, but Jesus!

      • DaveH

        You’re showing your bigotry, Alex. You are truly frightful.

        • Alex

          Where, in the post to which you reply, do I show my bigotry? I am simply questioning a man who lumps all of you Fright Wingers together in one bag, sharing thoughts of Xmas vulgarity.

          • DaveH

            Surely you jest, Alex?
            Now you’re showing your ignorance.
            The bigotry was obvious.

          • Alex

            Seems that on this point you have an issue with Michael J., not me. You don’t read well, do you DaveH?

          • DaveH

            Are you really that Ignorant, Alex? Or are you just trying to stir the pot? Look up the definition of Bigot, then reread your original comment:
            http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/christmas-cheer-with-a-side-of-liberty/#comment-684407

            Yes, Alex, you are a Bigot.

          • Michael J.

            Alex,
            I will not justify any of your comments with an explanation.

            Wrap yourself in your hatred while normal people spread Christmas cheer and spend time with family.

          • eddie47d

            Looks like Dave is also doing a mighty fine job of stirring the pot. Is that the pot calling the kettle black? This whole article was biased from the get go so instead of using Joe Liberal maybe we could have used Kate Conservative as an example. I’ve been at a few dinner tables in the past where the Conservatives have dominated the conversation. I respectfully listened so it does go both ways. Politics is pretty much off the table at our Christmas gatherings and that is rather nice for that day. Besides alot of politics is nothing more than well positioned lying so why spoil Christ’s birthday with petty grandstanding.

          • DaveH

            You “respectfully listened”, Eddie? While, fortunately, I’ve had no firsthand experience to disprove that, Eddie, your comments on this board belie that assertion.

          • libertytrain

            eddie: I’ve been at several dinner tables in the past and recent past where the libs have dominated the conversation.
            I respectfully listen and then re-evaluate why I chose to spend my time with them. Since we have so little in common. Why spend time with folks you don’t enjoy….

          • eddie47d

            The point is to show respect at different occassions. I’m not as passive around here when I catch anyone in a bald faced lie or spinning tall tales on a subject. My relatives know where I stand so why shove it in there faces. We get along fine …well except for my wife’s sister but we are cordial too each other. I babysat her 1 year old grandson yesterday and Tuesday. So it’s all about giving when you can.

          • DaveH

            Bald faced lies, Eddie? That must be difficult, Eddie, since you’re the one who tells most of them on this board.

          • eddie47d

            Do you practice being despicable Dave or does it come natural!

          • Joe H.

            DaveH,
            Eddie listens respectfully as he doesn’t have the anonymity of the internet and he’s afraid some of his relatives would pound his but!!!

          • DaveH

            They probably would, Joe, if he treats them like he treats us.

          • eddie47d

            Are you crying again Dave or are you peeing your pants?

          • libertytrain

            goodness eddie, you seemed to have forgotten the spirit and joy of Christmas – your true personality is being displayed…

          • Robert Smith

            Hey libertytrain, got anything to say about an issue?

            You are demonstrating how empty a noisy can can be. Tactics over substance.

            I do so enjoy pointing out just how weak and out of ammunition the extreme right is in a battle of wits.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            have at me sweetie, talk to me about how acorns… and your brutal God – better you attack me than all the others you continuously berate with your silliness and lack of substance in your posts.

        • Old Henry

          Ooh, the mind inside Alex is frightful, but DaveH’s replies are delightful…

          • Michael J.

            There ya go Old Henry,
            “Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow”

          • Old Henry

            Or Michael, Bang his gong, bang his gong, bang his gong…

  • mondovibe

    Here’s to a land that’s free of multinational robber barons rule, gambling away our homes, retirement, jobs, industry, democratic process, spewing the cost and casualty of their toxic assets in our financial industries, media and environment to the rest of us, with global & generation fall out. Many sustainable blessings to all of us in the New Year and beyond!

    • Alex

      Amen

  • Alex

    To all of you flat Earth Climate Change deniers—I will put a special gift into your Christmas stockings this year: CLEAN COAL!!!

    HAA!!!! Good one!!

    • DaveH

      Flat-Earthers? Your statements get more ridiculous as time goes on, Alex. The theory of Homogenic Global Warming is not only illogical, but it’s scientifically unsupported. It is purely a political belief system, much like the original Flat Earthers belief system. Ironical that you would use such a phrase.
      The jig is up:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov0WwtPcALE

      • Karolyn

        Dave – How can one be so sure when for every naysayer, there is somebody saying the opposite? If all one reads is what supports one’s own view, how can a real conclusion be reached? NOBODY has all the answers!

        • DaveH

          I base my acceptance of a theory on many years of science education and thinking, Karolyn. The Homogenic Global Warming Science is NOT Science. If you did some reading instead of looking in your magic mirror for reassurance you would know the truth.
          Or just watch the movie, and try to prove them wrong.

          • Alex

            His “movie” was produced by the Koch Brothers.

          • Robert Smith

            From DaveH: “The Homogenic Global Warming Science is NOT Science.”

            Actually it is.

            On the other hand it was proven in a court in Harrisburg, PA, that “intelligent design” isn’t.

            Rob

          • DaveH

            Do you think your saying it’s science makes it so, Robert?
            For anybody who wants to investigate the Hoax with an open mind:
            http://climatedepot.com/

            I might even add that the “man-made” premise is illogical to begin with. Given that water vapor is the predominant Greenhouse Gas, by far, and that water vapor is produced by warming the Oceans, if the theory were correct the warming effects would have fed upon one another until the earth quickly became an unlivable hothouse.

          • DaveH

            It says right under the movie, Alex, who produced it:
            “The film, made by British television producer Martin Durkin, presents scientists, economists, politicians, writers, and others who dispute the scientific consensus regarding anthropogenic global warming”.

            You have no credibility on this board, Alex.

          • DaveH

            Fortunately more and more people are waking to the Big Government Anthropogenic Global Warming hoax:
            http://www.prisonplanet.com/69-say-it%E2%80%99s-likely-scientists-have-falsified-global-warming-research.html

          • Karolyn

            See Dave, there you go with a personal attack when all I did was ask a question! You could have left it alone with your explanation but had to add the little jibe. Take a look into your own mirror, Dave.

          • eddie47d

            That would assure breakage and ghosts of Christmas pasts for Dave. LOL

          • DaveH

            Karolyn,
            You, like Eddie, lost my respect a long time ago with your hypocritical condescension of others on this board.

          • eddie47d

            You and your sidekick do it all the time Dave but that doesn’t seem to bother you when that happens. Why should anyone respect you when you are condescending?

          • Joe H.

            DaveH,
            don’t you realize by now that to say “HI” to karolyn or eddie is a personal attack???? to them that has to mean you are accusing them of being on drugs!!! Besides, Dave, you misspeak when you tell eddie and karolyn to think. They are not equipped!! There, now THAT is a personal attack, missy karolyn!!!

          • eddie47d

            Sorry Joe we aren’t offended when the mentally challenged speak ill of others. So we will forgive you.

          • Karolyn

            Dave – I was not even going to mention your own condescension, but since you bring it up, you are one of the most condescending people here! At least I take a look at myself when people point things out to me. I know I am not perfect, unlike some people who believe they are.

          • libertytrain

            Ah the Joy and Spirit of Christmas comes through again….

      • Old Henry

        Yep DaveH. The jig is indeed up. Bottom line, follow the $ – right into Albore’s pocket along with his ilk.

        Wasn’t Albore born about 9 months after Roswell?

        • Joe H.

          Old Henry,
          not to mention that THREE YEARS after leaving office, his net worth had increased 300 million!!! With all eddie’s yelling about corporate greed, I don’t hear a peep out of him about THAT!!! Talk about your double standard!!!

          • DaveH

            Eddie gets off on the negative attention of being the board Troll.
            Probably if we switched to his beliefs (heaven forbid) he would take the other side just to get more negative attention.

          • Robert Smith

            There goes Dave with another ad hominem attack.

            Did you know that ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy?

            Thanks for such a clear demonstration. I’ll be sure to point it out around the dinner table, just as the suggestions from the article are fallacy.

            Rob

        • eddie47d

          Looks like Dave and Joe are double liars for I have taken on Al’s wealth just like the rest of the power brokers. Get a life Joe or stop drinking so much puke!

          • JeffH

            eddie, no one, and I do mean NO ONE, has told more lies and been more of a HYPOCRIT than YOU! You know it , I know it and anyone else that fequents PLD knows it…your’s is typical of gradeschoolers, most of whom learn from it, and you haven’t nor ever will.

            A well deserved Christmas gift to eddie’s documented lies:

            August 19, 2011 at 7:27 pm
            If someone is not a Libertarian (according to Jeff and maybe Jana)they have to be a communist. There is certainly nothing wrong with being a Libertarian except for the arrogance that flows from some of it’s members mouths.

            August 20, 2011 at 11:25 pm
            We do see Jeff and Dave H. making personal threats (mostly mocking) against those they disagree with. That is everyday right Dave?

            Of course the response to Eddie’s lie was:
            Eddie47d is a Liar and a Slanderer. Anybody who reads enough of his comments knows that he makes up his “facts” out of whole cloth.

            Then Eddie starts his lying again…total denial.
            August 21, 2011 at 11:39 am
            Dave H can be a liar and a slanderer.As a matter of fact Jeff can also be a liar and a slanderer. You keep on doing it so I will assume the rest of us will have to put up with your occasional “fib”. I love when Dave says he didn’t say something when the words are right there in print. I may be misinterpreted in what I say but I won’t say that it wasn’t my words like Dave does.

            A response back to Eddie:
            Of course, this question will remain unanswered by Eddie – Can Easy-E can substantiate these allegations with great detail and credibility? Absolutley not! Your(Eddie’s) constant lack of details and facts only renders your opinions and reputation as “discreditable”.

            In complete denial eddie says:
            August 21, 2011 at 5:08 pm
            Can you substantiate my apparent lies Jeff? WE are all waiting with baiting breath to see what you can come up with next. Your wild accusations are like a cannon ball rolling down a hill looking for a place to land. You are either obsessed or mentally unstable.

            Of course eddie’s lies have been listed and substantiated but he still denies his immoral lying.

            August 21, 2011 at 11:49 am
            WE(Eddie believes he speaks for everyone else) means everyone on this site Jeff or do you live in a bubble? Am I a liar? Apparently you think so and shout it from the roof top. If someone says something you don’t like doesn’t make that person a liar. If you can’t come up with a comment that proves me wrong then there is no lie. The lie would only be in your hurt feelings when you can’t prove me wrong.You slash and burn with slander(calling me a liar) instead of presenting the “correct answer” or don’t you have any correct answers from your own thoughts.

            In response to Eddies denial of being a liar DaveH posted this comment which openly confirmed Eddie’s lie:
            August 21, 2011 at 1:49 pm
            You said this, Eddie, you lying slanderer — “We do see Jeff and Dave H. making personal threats (mostly mocking) against those they disagree with. That is everyday right Dave?”.
            Here is the link to the comment where Eddie said that:
            http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/government/downgrading-obama/#comment-524269
            I’m saying you are a liar. That is a fact. When you lie about somebody, the burden is on you to prove your statement, Ignoramus. You made a false statement, and I’m calling you out. If you’re not lying it is as simple as finding one of my comments that backs up that statement. You won’t because it doesn’t exist. And you know it, you sick Troll.

            Now eddie lies again and denies it after being proven a liar!
            eddie47d says:
            September 16, 2011 at 11:23 am
            I see Jeff is still playing his silly troll game of hysterical nonsense. I don’t know if a doctor has a cure for your malaise but seek help. Now once again since I didn’t lie that makes you the liar.Now can you wrap your tiny mind around that?

            eddie47d says:
            August 21, 2011 at 11:30 am
            An opinion can be a fact or just an opinion on a subject. What should we call your “opinions” Song? Maybe you are too “opinionated” to answer that.

            Eddie says: September 29, 2011 at 3:20 pm
            You never prove me a liar even though you keep insisting it’s true

            eddie47d says:
            October 12, 2011 at 12:41 pm
            The difference Jibbs is that I present facts each and everyday and SC never provides any. So get off your high horse and quit lying. Now if you don’t like my facts then disagree with them but don’t call me a liar until you do so. You are one sad lonely puppy in making up stories.

            eddie47d says (finally admits that he has a mental condition)
            October 28, 2011 at 9:17 pm
            That would be mentally challenged but at least I have mental ability.
            http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/please-mr-buffett-shut-up/#comment-609269

            eddie47d says:
            November 29, 2011 at 3:09 pm
            What you say about me is a lie in itself and you have been spreading that lie for some time now. Your game playing has long passed the threshold of decency and smells like week old garbage.
            http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/the-ows-black-friday-connection/#comment-652766

          • Robert Smith

            Hey Jeff, such a personal attack. Pretty much your entire post!

            Who gives you browny points for such?

            BTW, got any real issues or is your vocabulary one of personal attacks?

            Yup, I can see the swift boat attacks coming up the river…

            How extreme right wing.

            As far as logic goes you haven’t shown us anything.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            well rob, your vocabulary consists of just personal attacks, acorns and brutal gods – no higher level of intelligence demonstrated. Oh dear.

    • libertytrain

      Alex, clean coal is a good gift.
      Karolyn, you’re absolutely right. No one, including you, has all the answers.

    • DaveR

      Alex,

      You must enjoy stirring up people more than most.

      RE Climate change, a study of the historical record contained in the Antarctic ice packs, oldest trees, Wisconsin morraines, sedimentary rock layers, etc. indicates that climate change has always been occurring, including well before the present amount of people on earth and the industrialization of the world and the automobile. There is also evidence that forest fires occur naturally, and indeed are required for certain species to reproduce, e.g. douglas fir.

      And most important of all, have you considered that the sun is the source of most energy impacting the earth’s atmosphere, and that scientific data (current and historical) indicate the sun’s level of activity is not constant? That all warming allegedly due to man’s activities such as burning fossil fuels is miniscule compared to the energy impinging the earth from its sun?

      • eddie47d

        All points worth considering yet the dangers of man made pollution is effecting everyone beyond the global warming issue.Health issues are abundant especially when it comes to mercury in coal.While most people live longer these days those who work in mines or live near coal fired power plants don’t fair as well.I guess we could call that selective progress.

        • Old Henry

          Ah yes, mercury. Like the mercury in those CFLs that have been MANDATED by the liberal / communist career criminals in Congress.

          I guess we a now killing thousands of Chinese not to mention landfill operators and garbagemen.

          • Robert Smith

            Quit lying Henry: “Ah yes, mercury. Like the mercury in those CFLs that have been MANDATED by the liberal / communist career criminals in Congress.”

            Folks can use LEDs, etc. to accomplish the efficiencies that the incandecent lights can’t. CFLs are NOT what was mandated, it’s the efficiency that was mandated.

            Rob

          • Karolyn

            I believe that has been overturned by a judge.

          • Joe H.

            karolyn,
            would it be possible for you to show a site to prove that??? Guess not!!

          • Robert Smith

            Sure Joe but it wasn’t a court case that sank the conservation effort. It was the Republicans: “Congressional Republicans dropped almost all of the policy restrictions they tried to attach to the bill, but won inclusion of the light bulb provision, which prevents the Obama administration from carrying through a 2007 law that would have set energy efficiency standards that effectively made the traditional light bulb obsolete.”

            It’s a Washington Times article from: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/dec/16/congress-overturns-incandescent-light-bulb-ban/

            Why are you so opposed to saving electricity?

            Rob

          • Karolyn

            Joee – I heard it on the news and have not bothered to google it. I certainly did not make it up.

          • eddie47d

            Why don’t you site something Joe? Oh…when hell freezes over?

          • Old Henry

            Rob:

            Have you priced the alternative lights comared to the standard bulbs??

            I’ll take the incandescent bulbs and I’ll not have some dirt-bag politician making my choices.

          • Robert Smith

            Yup, I’ve priced CFL bulbs. You can get pretty much anything you want for under $2 at: http://www.energyfederation.org/smartliving/default.php/cPath/5931_2874

            I’m certain bigger discounts are offered. I baught a dozen for $3.99 when they had a special in the food court where I get lunch a few times each month. They set up such sales all around the state of CT. I bought half a dozen torchere lights for $10 each to replace the old ones that had quartz bulbs that ran very hot.

            I’ve replaced most of the bulbs in the house with CFLs. BTW, did you know that many LCD screens have CFLs in them?

            I think I have enough spare CFLs so I can wait for the prices of LED lights to come down for home use.

            LED lights are already cost effective as studio and theater lights. No extra air conditioning, long bulb life, and the brightness can be changed without changing the color of the lights.

            Rob

        • eddie47d

          Two steps forward and one step back!

      • Old Henry

        Maybe Alex is a community organizer. Ah Ha! Another budding “president”! I wonder if he is posting from Kenya.

  • http://personallibertydigest Marie

    I don’t know who this “Alex” is, but I think he ought to have his comments removed at your discretion. This “slander and name-calling” has become a hallmark of the left-wing, so-called liberals. Since we have to put up with it almost everywhere else, why does it have to be here? There are people who can debate in a reasonable, respectful manner; I personally have had it up to here with those who either can’t or won’t.

    • Robert Smith

      W”I personally have had it up to here with those who either can’t or won’t.”

      Will you say the same thing when samurai starts his “moron” antics?

      Rob

      • DaveH

        Why should he? Do you attack your fellow Liberals when they make ignorant statements?

        • DaveH

          Sorry, Marie, I meant “she”.

          • Old Henry

            Better put the safety back on that keyboard DaveH…

        • Robert Smith

          DavidH asks: “Do you attack your fellow Liberals when they make ignorant statements?”

          Yes actually, I have. But “liberals” don’t make mistakes of fact as often so it doesn’t happen much.

          So, gonna stay on top of samurai? There’s no question about his abuses.

          Rob

          • DaveH

            Samurai can be a little rough around the edges, but by and large he has good morality. I can’t say the same about you, Robert.
            And please avoid the jokes about Liberals making mistakes of fact. My sides hurt from laughing.
            If you meant that they know damn well they’re spreading misinformation, in which case they’re not mistakes, I would have to agree with you.

          • libertytrain

            Dave – apparently rob doesn’t read his own words. His own viciousness….amazing how that works for the libs.

          • Joe H.

            robbie,
            You attack your fellow libbies??? WHERE, WHEN??? you sure as hell haven’t done it HERE!!!! Mostly all you do, is talk about your little ACORNS!!!

          • Robert Smith

            Another lie from Joe.

            It’s clear he has deliberatey offered false information AND he hasn’t offered any proof.

            Rob

          • Robert Smith

            From lib: “His own viciousness….amazing how that works for the libs.”

            Can you show us some examples?

            BTW, I know you don’t think that there christian god cited around here and apparently worshiped is “brutal.” However, killing everyone except Noah and his family, saving Lott to have sex with his daughers, and destroying a couple of cities sure looks brutal to me.

            BTW, nobody has explained “Gamority” to me yet. Am I missing something?

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            rob you are such a silly little guy. Always attacking everyone you deem Christian yet you say you are Christian. Picking and choosing what god you claim each here believes in. I thought Christian’s believed in one God. Mine isn’t brutal. Why is yours to you?

          • Robert Smith

            An outright lie from lib: “Always attacking everyone you deem Christian yet you say you are Christian.”

            I am NOT christian. I have NEVER said I am. NEVER.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            why I wouldn’t be as silly to say a lie, I was mistaken in my choice of word — you proclaim a feeling of some sort for rev. moon – I can’t imagine that he sanctions attacks on every Christian — you do not evidence yourself a gentleman in your endless attacks of everyone whether you know their beliefs or not…sword is always drawn – again, I cannot imagine rev. moon teaching same…

          • libertytrain

            rob per your Rev. Moon:
            “My dream is to organize a Christian political party including the Protestant denominations, Catholic and all the religious sects. Then, the communist power will be helpless before ours….But when it comes to our age, we must have an automatic theocracy to rue the world. So, we cannot separate the political field from the religious. Democracy was born because people ruled the world, like the Pope does. …The separation between religion and politics is what Satan likes most.”
            From MS-366, 9/17/73, Third Directors’ Conference, Master Speaks.

          • Robert Smith

            There goes lib again… “From MS-366, 9/17/73, Third Directors’ Conference, Master Speaks.”

            I have NOTING to do with christanity except to push it back from the clearly admitted (in the quote you just offered) effort to domonate everyone.

            AGAIN: I have posted NO affiliation to any god or goddess.

            YOUR effort to cast about is almost child like in the effort to distract from the real points I make.

            It’s so obvious that now that I mention it please carry on. It clearly deomnstrates just how weak the position is of those who follow such a brutal god.

            BTW, how can you claim there is only one god? Just can’t get over the idea that you may have picked the wrong one or three? I never was able to figure out Big Daddy, Jr., and the perferated spook thing. Looks like polytheoism to me. But, you can call it what you want… It’s your brutal and hateful religion.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            ah, your rememberings fail you sometimes it seems —-poor rob

    • Old Henry

      Marie:

      Think about it. This is a Libertarian site and Libertarians foster freedom of all fashions. The libs are free to say what they want, no matter how ill-sensical it is. I get a kick out of reading most of it as it simply re-enforces how correct we are.

      Marie, when reading the libs postings remember the Crash Test Dummy sloagan from years past: You can learn a lot from a dummy.

      • Robert Smith

        Henry lies again: “This is a Libertarian site and Libertarians foster freedom of all fashions. ”

        Actually when it comes to freedom of recreational drugs the only one allowed is alcohol.

        When it comes to freedom of how to die it’s left to their god.

        When it comes to the freedom of a woman to decide about her own body in issues like reproduction she doesn’t get much say.

        And that there great libritarian Bob Barr who offer things about Wicca in the military like: “This move sets a dangerous precedent that could easily result in the practice of all sorts of bizarre practices being supported by the military under the rubric of ‘religion.’ What’s next? Will armored divisions be forced to travel with sacrificial animals for Satanic rituals? Will Rastifarians demand the inclusion of ritualistic marijuana cigarettes in their rations?”

        I don’t think that’s advocating for much freedom.

        Rob

        • Robert Smith

          Oh, and ummmmm…..

          “What’s next? Will armored divisions be forced to travel with sacrificial animals for Satanic rituals?”

          What was that about “slippery slope” arguments? Looks to me like they should work for the extreme reich wing either.

          Rob

        • DaveH

          You lie, Robert. Why does that not surprise me?
          Robert says [about Libertarians] — “Actually when it comes to freedom of recreational drugs the only one allowed is alcohol”.
          Read Section 1.2 Personal Privacy of the Libertarian Platform linked to below.
          Robert says [about Libertarians] — “When it comes to the freedom of a woman to decide about her own body in issues like reproduction she doesn’t get much say”.
          Read Section 1.4 Abortion of the Libertarian Platform linked to below.
          As far as your very strange statement — “When it comes to freedom of how to die it’s left to their god” — I have no idea what it is you’re trying to say, could you explain in English?

          http://libertarianparty.org/platform

          • DaveH

            And given the fact that you obviously are spreading misinformation, Robert, I would ask that you post a reference about your Bob Barr accusations.
            Know by the way that I don’t consider Bob Barr to be a true Libertarian. That’s not to say he can’t change over time. To me, Bob Barr is a Libertarian like John McCain is a Republican.

          • Joe H.

            DaveH,
            Then Barr can’t be much of a libertarian as McCain isn’t even a good RINO!!!

          • DaveH

            You got that right, Joe.

          • Robert Smith

            David H says: “Know by the way that I don’t consider Bob Barr to be a true Libertarian”

            Actually he was head of the party and thus his beliefs would appear to be at the core of it. Of course your milage may vary but I imagine it’s the same sort of thing as saying that unless it’s some proper brutal kind of christanity (remember the the hate of gays and denial of equality for them in the name of that there brutal christian god) thaey ain’t “christian.” Did you know, for example, that some who call themselves christian as some around here do actually support same sex merrage?

            To address Bob Barr’s: “This move sets a dangerous precedent that could easily result in the practice of all sorts of bizarre practices being supported by the military…”

            You can find it under the headline “Georgia Congressman Launches `Witch Hunt’ In U.S. Military” At: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Georgia+Congressman+Launches+%60Witch+Hunt'+In+U.S.+Military.-a055333738

            So, I consider Bob Barr, because he was head of the party, to be a valid spokesperson for what the party is advocating.

            Rob

          • Robert Smith

            “God says, `Suffer not a witch to live,’” the Rev. Jack Harvey of the Tabernacle Baptist Church in Killeen told The Washington Post. “We would like to see them saved, but God doesn’t change his mind. We’re not going to quit until they’re gone.”

            Yup, that’s one more version of that there brutal christanity I can point to. Kill the witches.

            Rob

          • Robert Smith

            BTW, for that christian quote by Rev. Jack Harvey of the Tabernacle Baptist Church the information can be found at the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/june99/wicca08.htm

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            You must have had a very miserable life to always search out the worst of some religion rather than the good that also occurs. You’re selective in your hatred….got a real thing about Christianity. Not particularly the intelligent method to lump all as one. There is evil to be found everywhere, there is good to be found everywhere and neither have a particular name – what a sad little man.

          • Robert Smith

            So, according to libertytrain it’s OK to kill witches because all religions have evil in them according to her estimation.

            Ummmmmmm, I believe that logic dosn’t hold up. Maybe you should address the witch killing thing directly.

            Speaking of evil…

            For example satan is generally a christian / hebrew creation. Although expressed as an individual it (person or concept) is rarely addressed in other religions.

            Can’t keep ‘em line without a boogy man. Ruling through fear and all that. Yup, still a brutal god.

            However, here is an interesting example from the Bahá’í Faith. It’s a concept I haven’t seen before:

            In the Bahá’í Faith, Satan is not regarded as an independent evil power as he is in some faiths, but signifies the lower nature of humans. `Abdu’l-Bahá explains: “This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan — the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.”[34][35] All other evil spirits described in various faith traditions such as fallen angels, demons and jinns are also metaphors for the base character traits a human being may acquire and manifest when he turns away from God.[36]

            That’s from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#Other_religions

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            gosh golly gee, is that the usual rob tactic, create a “lie” if you will about a poster out of words that never were said…

          • Robert Smith

            So, address the witch killing advocacy of such a brutal god and his followers.

            That would be something you can actually say rather than empty attacks.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            rob your brutal god kills witches. I do not nor does the God I believe.

  • Old Henry

    If one of our “Joe Liberals” starts in with their trash I will most likely remove my hearing aids and place them in my shirt pocket. That way it will sond like what it is – Jibberish.

    Or, if I am in the correct mood,I will simply begin asking questions that require an explnation, not just an “answer”. Usually it will lead them to their own conclusion which is, liberal BS is just that – BS. Then I remove my hearing aids and take a nap in the Lazy Boy and get ready for the second wave.

    • eddie47d

      That tactic also works well with “Kate Conservative”. LOL Have a Merry Christmas Old Henry and enjoy the Spirit but not so much the spirits.

      • Kate8

        eddie – I find it so amusing that you like to single me out so often, holding me up as an example of all you dislike about conservatives.

        You must know, hon, that I take that as a compliment, coming from you.

        • s c

          Kate8, e makes me think of a welsh corgi pup that’s never yet encountered a pit bull. A loud bark is worth only so much. When it comes to teeth and character, I suspect e is more meow than woof.
          Merry Christmas, and keep utopians at a distance.

        • Old Henry

          Katie my dear! I think ole eddie has a crush on you. Kinda like little Johnny pushing little Suzie into the snow bank.

          • eddie47d

            LOL Old Henry! I picked the name Kate out on a whim so it could have been anyone. It sounded alot better than Old Henry Conservative at the time. Have a Merry Christmas Kate!

          • Kate8

            Sure, eddie. Whatever you say.
            :) :)

          • DaveH

            I find that very believable, Eddie, since most everything you say is whimsical.

          • Old Henry

            eddie & Kate, you folks got me laughin’ so much I had tears in my eyes, and I haven’t even been to the Beer Cellar yet!

            eddie, I think you picked “Kate” from your sub-conscious. She’s on yer mind even when ya don’t know it! LOL!

            Katie my dear, you stay away from eddie! I don’t want to hear any reports from the neighbors!

          • eddie47d

            What time does the beer cellar open for visitors Old Henry?

          • Kate8

            Old H – Thanks for the advise.

            Never mind eddie, but do ya have a nice bottle of Cabernet in that cellar? :)

          • Old Henry

            Nope Katie, but fer you I’ll hobble into town and get a bottle, or two…
            Ya like Alan Jackson?

          • DaveH

            Kate,
            That was my favorite also back when I could drink wine.

  • http://na Jim

    I usually start the conversation before dinner out in the yard playing football or out on the hill pushing the sled,tobogan, or saucer(chevy chase scenario). Then if it gets stupid one good hit or a miss directed push towards a tree usually stops that for the rest of the day. Our family is strong conservatives but we do have a few college brats.

    • Old Henry

      Jim, do you staple Christmas lights to your roof?

  • Jeremy Leochner

    I couldn’t agree more about politics. With respect to Mr. Rolley I feel his argument would carry much more weight if when asking people not to politicize Christmas he didn’t at almost the same time make antagonists of liberals and people who are left leaning. I completely agree it is wrong to turn Christmas into a time for debating and arguing. As such I also disagree with painting a particular group as being the bad guys. Politics is discussed by people of all political persuasions and likewise it is wrong for any form of politics to be brought up. That includes generalizing statements about those you disagree with politically. I apologize I just wanted to get it off my chest before Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Let us put our petty political differences aside for the day meant to give kindness to our fellow men and women.

    • DaveH

      Which one of your multiple personalities is speaking this time?

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Hie Dave I missed you. Actually I am still Jeremy Leochner as I have always been. With respect I see you still cant seem to admit I am who I say I am and you still refuse to accept my right to make the argument I believe in without assuming I have some nefarious scheme.

        • Joe H.

          Jeremy,
          After seeing some of your posts here in the past, that is not so suprising!!!

          • Jeremy Leochner

            The problem Joe is that I am simply saying what I genuinely believe in regards to the articles. I just don’t understand how it is so unusual that I would do so. It seems as if every time I voice my opinion it is assumed or suggested that I have some sort of agenda or plot or motive behind it. Is it so outrageous that someone could be honest about their beliefs? Is it so unusual for someone to simply voice their views of an article without there being some ulterior motive? It certainly seems like it at times. All I have ever desired is to voice my opinion and discuss with other people on this page. My aim was and still is simply to give my honest opinion of the articles I see and to discuss with any who choose to respond. I mean no offense, I do not want to spout- I ask people to respond if they disagree. I simply want to discuss and talk about the articles and their message. In regards to the above article I simply wished to comment on the wisdom of criticizing making political statements at Christmas while at the same time making a rather inflammatory political statement. All I have ever wanted is what anyone does when they see something that gets them thinking-to give their opinion and have a discussion. If such an idea sparks suspicion I am sorry. It is simply who and what I am.

          • DaveH
          • Jeremy Leochner

            Dave I didn’t realize my opinion warranted the effort to find the previous opinions I have had on other articles. Dave I am simply giving my viewpoint of these articles. I didn’t realize it was BS to offer my honest opinion. I give you the respect of accepting your words and opinions as your own. I assume that Dave is your real name and I grant you the common decency of debating with you as an equal and as honest adults. I didn’t realize it was too much to ask the same in return. You and I certainly disagree Dave but I assumed we could still behave as mature adults with each other. I apologize if I offend but your seeming refusal or inability to accept my argument as being an honest one strikes me as very unbecoming. I recognize your argument as yours and your opinions as honest. I wish you could do me the same honor.

          • Jeremy Leochner

            Slight mistake on my part. I just handed you what you wanted. I would like to point out that the article in which you linked too did not even have my opinion given on it. It had the opinions of someone else who Mr. Livingston for some reason mistook to be me.

          • libertytrain

            Dave – thanks for the walk down memory lane. I’d forgotten the drama, but it is interesting that flashman/flashy got his suspension lifted but is under watchful eyes — and now all of a sudden Jeremy is back as well.

          • Jeremy Leochner

            Yeah Liberty Train. Its crazy for some reason my computer didn’t let me make comments unless I wen on another. But like I said I am and have always been Jeremy. Just giving my honest opinion.

          • Robert Smith

            I find it very interesting that lib is discussing the individual posters around here rather than issues. Seems to me that her entire argument is ad hominem. Such attacks usually involves insulting or belittling one’s opponent rather than issues.

            Since we are on the topic of illogical arguments I must point out that this tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent’s personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent’s arguments or assertions.

            It’s simply a distraction because there are NO valid arguments against restricting the freedoms of responsible Americans in America.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            yes, I’ve often wondered why you do that – why you are all acorns or brutal god. Nothing of substance to contemplate.

  • hitthedeck

    Clean warm white socks as white as snow.
    I looked out over the rice paddies from my fox hole. The monsoon season had started about a month ago and the rain seemed to never stop. My fox hole was filling up with water and I began to bail it out with my steel helmet cover. I was soaked to the bone and my feet were cold. There was a foggy mist that had hid the sun for days, and it was impossible to keep anything dry. We had been stuck out here for two weeks and had no word when we would be relieved. I had come here as a young soldier and felt like an old man getting ready to die. I forgot what we were fighting for and finally realized in simple terms it was for keeping each other alive.
    When thinking every day you may be living on the last day of your life, you live in a world of memory. I kept remembering that top drawer in my bedroom back home. It was filled to the top with neatly folded underwear and socks stacked to the top. Mama had stocked me with white cotton socks for school, thick wool socks for winter, colored socks for church and one pair of black socks for funerals.
    When we were in boot camp they always said the most important thing is for a soldier to keep his feet clean and dry, but they never told you how to do it under water. We used ponchos for keeping things dry but once they are worn and wet, there’s no way to dry them out when the humidity is one hundred percent.
    I remember that one morning when I was half asleep huddled under my poncho when shots were ringing out. I looked out over the paddies and spotted a solider running like hell in my direction. I could see bullets kicking water in the paddies around him. I started giving him covering fire and couldn’t help notice the red Santa hat he was wearing and the large U.S. Mail bag he was carrying. He was covered with mud and took a long jump into my foxhole face first. He looked up at me and shouted merry Christmas and “we ain’t dead yet by God”. The sniper fire stopped and he poured hot coffee from his canteen into my canteen cup. He reached into his bag and handed me a package. I had forgotten that this was Christmas day. It was a package from home. I removed the top wax paper wrapper and there was a card from mama on top. A short message telling me everyone at home was OK and how much I was loved and missed. I took the cover off to find an assortment of mama’s baked cookies and fruit cake wrapped in wax paper. Underneath was a towel covering seven pairs of thick clean fluffy cotton socks as white as snow. I handed six pairs to Santa and began to cry. Mama always knew what I needed without me asking her. Santa was wiping the tears from his eyes also but we both began to smile when we shared Mama’s fruit cake. Before Santa left we said a prayer to the birthday child of Christmas. He moved on down the line and gave out five pairs or maybe six pairs of white fluffy warm cotton socks as white as snow.
    God bless him and God bless Mama for knowing what a boy needs most.
    Lots of love and dry feet.
    MERRY CHRISTMAS
    Gary Chambers
    Hq & Hq 1st Calvary Division

    • George E

      Enjoyed the story. A lot of folks can’t imagine what you’re telling them. It hits home with me, however. Thanks.

  • steve in AZ

    A question posited in this essay was “But how are we to approach Joe in such a way that doesn’t send the conversation spiraling out of control into a full-fledged Christmas-dinner argument?”

    I prefer the .357 caliber. Send the contest prize to me here in Tucson,please. :)

    DONATE NOW so we can VOTE RON PAUL 2012!!!

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