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California Passes Bill To Ban Therapy For Gays

August 31, 2012 by  

California Passes Bill To Ban Therapy For Gays
PHOTOS.COM
A bill prohibiting children from having conversion therapy passed with a 51-21 vote.

A therapy intended to turn homosexuals and bisexuals into heterosexuals will not be allowed after a bill was passed by California’s Democrat-controlled Assembly on Tuesday. The bill, which prohibits children from undergoing conversion therapy, passed with a 51-21 vote. Gay-rights advocates who believe a person is born homosexual consider the passing of the bill a landmark victory.

Democrat Richardo Lara, an openly gay legislator, believes that “sissy boys” should be protected from such intervention.

“One of our number one priorities in this house is to protect the next generation of Californians,” said the legislator in a speech prior to the vote.

“And some of those are sissy boys. And some of those sissy boys grow up to be Assembly members. And some of those sissy boys need help. And we are here to stand with those sissy boys.”

John Perez, an openly gay speaker of California’s lower house, called the therapy a “dehumanizing activity.”

Those who voted against the bill believe that the bill imposes on personal liberty. They say that each individual should get to choose whether or not they get the therapy.

Bryan Nash

Staff writer Bryan Nash has devoted much of his life to searching for the truth behind the lies that the masses never question. He is currently pursuing a Master's of Divinity and is the author of The Messiah's Misfits, Things Unseen and The Backpack Guide to Surviving the University. He has also been a regular contributor to the magazine Biblical Insights.

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  • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    CONVERSION THERAPY ONLY LEADS TO HEART-BROKE WIVES, HEART-BROKE CHILDREN, SEXUALLY-TRANSMITTED DISEASES AND HIV-INFECTIONS. IN CASES OF “bisexual” TRIANGLES, IT CAN LEAD TO MURDER.

    • Robert Smith

      How can any libritarian NOT support same sex couples if it is their choice?

      Rob

      • Ken

        “One of our number one priorities in this house is to protect the next generation of Californians,”

        I didn’t know you lived in Kalifornia Wobby!

      • Alex Frazier

        We do support same-sex couples. What we do not support is the legislatively imposed obligation to acknowledge them as “normal” or “married” when it defies our religious beliefs. I have the first amendment right to believe, as per my religion, that they are living a sinful lifestyle. I also have the first amendment right to voice that opinion. But that’s not acceptable to homosexuals. If one chooses to exercise their first amendment rights in such a way, whether by belief or voice, they have Mayors in major cities like Boston banning their restaurants, or homosexual deviants loitering in their restaurants so they can make out in front of small children in the name of protest.

        Be gay if you choose, but don’t make me like it by law, don’t make me call you married by law, and don’t protest my business because I disagree with your lifestyle. I have rights too.

      • Chester

        Alex, MOST gays agree that you have the right to have your own opinion about their lifestyes. What they do NOT believe is that you have the right to force YOUR beliefs on THEM. By denying them the right to marry, you ARE forcing your own beliefs on a minority group, simply because they ARE a minority. How long ago was it that a black man and white woman, or a white man and black woman would not be allowed to marry because “It goes against God’s directions.” People see mixed race marriages now and don’t think a lot about them. Why should same sex couples NOT be in that same boat? Oh, yes, religious excuses NOT accepted.

      • steve

        chester give a minority a inch and they will some day be the majority. you can spin this all you want but men lying with men is against gods laws. if i was them i would spin anything just to have it in my favor.

      • Alex Frazier

        @ Chester -

        If homosexuals want to get married, then let them have at it. But I reserve the right to say they are not. I have a right to the free exercise of my religion. You say that’s not a valid excuse, but the Constitution says that it’s better than an excuse. It’s a right. When my religion says that “mankind shall not lay with mankind as with womankind. It is an abomination,” Congress does not have the authority to force me by law to say otherwise, or to provide “married” privileges to people whom I reject as being a married couple, as opposed to just being a couple.

        A civil union I have no objection to. My religion doesn’t prohibit me from acknowledging that two people, regardless of their gender, are life partners. And as legal life partners, they should have all the same benefits as any married couple.

        When you consider the whole scenario with a view to the broad scope, you will see that I am not forcing my views on them. They are trying to force their views on me. I am not denying them equal rights. They are trying to void my existing ones.

        If we all agree to allow legal civil unions that grant the partners all the benefits, rights, and privileges of a married couple, then all should agree that there will no longer be an issue with “equal rights.” They even have the right to free speech to call their life partner their spouse, husband, wife, or whatever. So they are not even denied the right to be called “married.”

        The alternate scenario is that we allow them to “marry,” which forces people by law, whether they agree with it or not, morally, semantically, or otherwise, to acknowledge them as married, to treat them as married, and to extend to them “married” privileges. The same mentality infringes on the individual’s right to free speech in forcing them through protests and other demonstrations to say what the homosexuals want to hear, or to pay the price. One need only look to the Miss USA pageant and Carrie Prejean, who was ostricized for having the nerve to express in very polite terms that she believed marriage was between a man and a woman. Or we can look at the nonsense that took place with Chick-Fil-A, who was speaking their Christian beliefs on a Christian program, and suffered political oppression from local Mayors and demonstrations from homosexuals.

        So who’s really forcing what on whom? Whose rights are really being violated?

      • FreedomFighter

        I dont give a rats behind about same sex couples, thats between them and god, as long as they dont invade the church for marriage.

        Change goverment laws, dont invade the church, its the mistake gays make over and over, they want the benies of marriage given by government – fine. Just dont use the hetro Marriage wagon to do it.

        change the offensive law, dont invade or try to change church practice.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • http://none Charlie

        R. Smith ,,, DaveH is the guy to ask that question,,, but here’s My short answer , any local god , county god, state god that violates Biblical Law IS NOT to be honored …

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “FreedomFighter,”

        SIR, YOU ARE “IN FOR A DISAPPOINTMENT.” IF SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IS LEGALIZED NATIONWIDE, THOSE PEOPLE WILL WANT CHURCH WEDDINGS – MATCHING OUTFITS, CANDLE-LIGHTING, BEING “WALKED DOWN THE AISLE” AND THE WEDDING CAKE WITH CHAMPAGNE TOAST.

        “FreedomFighter,” THERE ARE HOMOSEXUAL WEBSITES WHICH ALREADY DISPLAY WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHS FROM SAME-SEX MARRIAGES IN MASSACHUSEETS. U. S. Representative Barney Frank’s (D-MA) WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHS ARE ONLINE.

      • charley

        how could any normal human being love the same sex is beyond be that is just wrong my opinion is if god want you to be with the same sex he would have made all men or all woman world not both and i do not believe in this at all it wrong in in uhumain and unjust unforgivable sin

      • http://yahoo gator

        hi Rob, it is their GOD-given right to do watever they want, as long as they aren’t ‘stepping on toes’; however they want to dictate against others GOD-given rights, Chick-filet for instance.
        i’m thinking what we really should do is start checking the unborn fetuses for ‘sissy-boy’ attributes and upon detecting said attributes, abort the fetuses!
        that statement should attract some flack!

      • Renée

        Chester, I don’t know if you are paying attention to the media lately but the homosexual agenda is being forced on everyone. I oppose the homosexual agenda and I’m speaking out right here and right now. My husband and I don’t go flaunting our heterosexuality on people, hugging and kissing in public and having a parade along with all the other heterosexuals! You talk about forced ideas? Our armed forces are being FORCED to accept that lifestyle, our children are being FORCED to learn about it and accept it, our churches are being FORCED to not talk about it as being wrong. You talk about FORCED? I’m sorry but it just makes me so angry that those that are homosexuals and those that agree with it tell us that we that oppose it are the one forcing our ideas? Give me a break!!! The bottom line here is that God will be the judge of what is right and wrong, I choose to believe what God says and whether you or anyone else agrees or disagrees is your business but don’t tell me that we are forcing our ideas on you! We are losing our rights daily! We are being told what we can say or not say because of PC. The truth will set everyone free, they just have to believe what the REAL truth is. Our world has been heading into darkness for quite a while the light of the truth has never been as dark as it is right now. I hate to see what comes next!
        Another thing, I feel the gov. is pushing this whole thing to keep down the population. What better way to keep babies from being born than to have a bunch of people that can’t procreate. Homosexuality and abortion, the two contraseptives of the government.

    • Ken

      @ CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON – Chris; did I read this correctly?!

      I WAS BORN HOMOSEXUAL. I HAVE GENETIC AND MEDICAL PROOF.

      • Karolyn

        Chris has “outed” himself here, Ken. He is somewhat like a good friend of mine who is gay, while also being Christian and very conservative.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Ken,”

        YES, SIR! – YOU READ IT CORRECTLY.

        “Ken,” I HAVE A SISTER WHO IS MORE THAN FIVE YEARS OLDER THAN I. AFTER HER BIRTH, MY MOTHER NEVER “RE-GAINED” HER MENSTRUAL CYCLE. IN ADDITION, MY MOTHER HAD OTHER HEALTH PROBLEMS WHICH REQUIRED SURGERY. MY MOTHER WAS PLACED ON HORMONAL THERAPY. HER DOCTOR ADVISED HER TO BECOME PREGNANT – WHICH WOULD LEAD TO A NORMAL RETURN TO MENSTRUATION AFTER THE CHILD’S BIRTH. FIVE YEARS AFTER MY SISTER’S BIRTH, MY MOTHER BECAME PREGNANT WITH ME.

        BECAUSE OF THE HORMONAL TREATMENTS, THE DOCTOR WARNED MY PARENTS THE FETUS COULD HAVE GENETIC DEFORMITIES AND PROBLEMS WITH SEXUAL DEVELOPMENT – i. e., HE TOLD MY PARENTS THE CHILD COULD BE HOMOSEXUAL.

        “Ken,” I HAVE A GENETIC DEFORMITY [NON-SEXUAL]. “Ken,” I ONLY BECOME SEXUALLY AROUSED AT THE SIGHT OF OTHER MALES.

        THEREFORE, “Ken,” I K-N-O-W I WAS BORN HOMOSEXUAL.

      • Keith W.

        Where’s your genetic & medical proof that you are hetro….?? hmmmm….!?!

  • Vigilant

    One has to wonder what the vote would have been if the therapy under consideration had the purpose of changing heterosexuals into homosexuals.

    • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      “Vigilant,”

      ALL OF THIS TALK OF GOVERNMENTAL UPRISINGS, STOCKPILING OF WEAPONS/AMMUNITION, ETC. ENJOYED BY Personal Libertarians WOULD BE REALIZED IF HETEROSEXUALS WERE FORCED TO BECOME HOMOSEXUAL.

      • Karolyn

        What on earth are you talking about?

      • http://www.facebook.com/elton.robb Elton Robb

        Karolyn, he’s talking about the Gay fantasy where everyone in the United States is gay. I’ve seen several times where homosexuals wished everyone could be homosexual. They know, without a shadow of a doubt, that they are not normal. They know it. However, they are fighting to become a protected separate class of citizens by law. Also, if their dreams are fully realized, then all of the United States would die out within the space of two generations.

        Do you understand why the Great Eternal Father is going to judge our country now? For Yahweh did say that we are a stiff-necked people. Unwilling to change, and now flipping the bird in front of his face in regards to this sexual perversion called Homosexuality.

        “And Yahweh said unto Moses, I have seen this people and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people. Now therefore, let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of thee a great nation.”

        I had a dream that our home soil will be invaded by a multitude of countries, coming in and seeking to enslave us.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Karolyn,”

        MA’AM, THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS ON THIS SITE ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE STOCKPILING AMMUNITION. “Karolyn,” I CAN NOT SPEAK FOR FEMALES – BUT, IF A THERAPIST TELLS A HETEROSEXUAL MALE HE IS GOING TO BE TURNED INTO A HOMOSEXUAL VIA THERAPY – AS SUGGESTED BY, “Vigilant” – THAT MALE WILL KILL HIM BEFORE HIS “MANHOOD” IS TAMPERED WITH.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Elton Robb,”

        YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE FANTASY. THE FANTASY IS NOT EVERYONE BEING “gay.” THE FANTASY – FROM A MALE HOMOSEXUAL PERSPECTIVE – IS A DESIRE FOR EARTH TO ONLY BE POPULATED WITH MALES [PREFERABLY, NUDE]. EMPHASIS IS NOT NECESSARILY ON SEX – IT IS ON VOYEURISM. MALE HOMOSEXUALS HAVE NO NEED FOR FEMALES. I AM QUITE SURE, FEMALE HOMOSEXUALS HAVE THE OPPOSITE FANTASY.

    • Karolyn

      Like there is ANYTHING that can turn heteros into homosexuals!

      • Vigilant

        Agreed. And vice versa too.

      • Cliffystones

        Maybe being hit on by Rachael Maddow?

      • Robert Smith

        “Rachael Maddow”

        Google Woody Allen’s “The Whore of Mensa.”

        Rob

      • ArkansasRebel

        There is! It is called “CHOICE”. No matter how you cut it, it comes down to ones choice.
        If we entertain an idea or concept long enough it will eventually become our choice. They can say all they want homosexuality is by birth, but that is simply not true. There is no evidence whatsoever. And if it was true, it would make God a liar because He calls
        homosexuality an abomination.

      • steve

        so ark rebel , i have a gay person in my family and that’s not how it is explained to me. they just don’t wake up one day and say i like men better than woman. it is a disorder caused during the developement of a baby before birth. doctors don’t know what causes it. yes you have a choice. god haqs nothing to do with your birth. you want to blame someone, blame adam and eve. god created them perfect. that’ how we where supposed to be but eve got greedy and the rest you know. get off you high horse . you don’t know jack about the subject.

      • http://www.facebook.com/elton.robb Elton Robb

        Actually, Steve, he is quite right. A man is quite capable of changing his patterns of living. It is possible for a homosexual to change from being a homosexual into a heterosexual being. A man is an infinite being. All Men are infinite beings (Man capitalized includes all of both sexes — man and woman). Therefore, all Men are experiencing an infinite number of possibilities all at once. So you choose which to experience through your five physical senses.

        At any point you have an infinite number of choices to choose. Choose this, Choose that, or Choose another thing. A man may choose to lie with another man as he would a woman, but he has to accept the consequences of that choice. According to Leviticus 20:13, they are to die in order to remove their perversion and evil from Israel. However, it is a matter for the Secular Government to fulfill, not the Church. But because we aren’t doing it, we are giving God the privilege of doing it Himself.

        The Man we call Jesus Christ is our rightful King. He had, has, and always will have the authority to set down the consequences of our behavior.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “ArkansasRebel,”

        I WAS BORN HOMOSEXUAL. I HAVE GENETIC AND MEDICAL PROOF.

      • cawmun cents

        Ony Christ can cure those spiritual influences which make us desire wrong things.
        It cannot be done through scientific endeavor.
        -CC.

      • Chester

        Karolyn, quite truthfully, I have seen some women I would run away from like the Devil himself was after me, and have seen some men I had to take a second look at just to see if I had seen what I thought I saw. Personally, I am very much hetero, but just in looking, you may be surprised at who is or isn’t what they appear to be. For Mr. Horton, apparently you are outside the norm for most gays if all you want to see are men. Most of the gay men I have known are quite content to see and talk with women, just not in a sexual manner. I can’t say for gay women, but would guess many of them feel the same way about men. Most people prefer to talk and work with the gender they see themselves as, but would far rather be involved with the opposite gender for love and sex.

  • Alex Frazier

    I have always been of the opinion that homosexuals suffer an imbalance chemically or hormonally. Men have certain levels of testosterone, women estrogen. I would be willing to bet that someone sincerely homosexual actually has the chemical or hormonal balance of the opposite sex. They may have a man’s body, but they have a woman’s chemistry, or a woman’s body and a man’s chemistry.

    I have always thought that it would be possible to make an anti-homo pill. People suffer any number of imbalances, leading to depression and other conditions. As a result, we have anti-depressants, anti-psycotics, anti-anxieties, and several others. In many cases, the point of the medication is to restore the balance and eliminate the symptom of the imbalance.

    So why can’t they make an anti-homo pill to restore the balance and let men think and perceive like men, and let women think and perceive like women?

    I have no problem with the therapy. Being homosexual is a difficult lifestyle. If there is a legitimate way to avoid the complications that come along with that particular malady, I don’t see why they need to pass laws to prevent it … unless the homos are just offended that they suffer from a mental disease as real as depression or schizophrenia.

    • Doc Sarvis

      If they are happy as homosexuals and in a healthy relationship why should they take your “anti-homo” pill. Personal Liberty!

      • Alex Frazier

        Doc, you miss the point. They don’t have to take such a pill. But if such a pill, or therapy, or other treatment existed/exists that helps those who don’t find the lifestyle to be all that appealing, it shouldn’t be illegal for an individual, at their own discretion, to take advantage of such treatments.

    • Mike in MI

      Alex -
      According to a close, careful, accurate reading of the Romans 1:21-32 narrative God shows us HIS point of view of this plague on humanity. Its origin. Its development. Its consequences. (If you know how to use – or are willing to learn – an Interlinear Greek/English N.T., an Analytical Greek Lexicon and an Englishman’s Greek Concordance studying this passage gives tremendous insight into why the world is as it is.)
      Basically homosexuality starts with a religious decision to reject God and worship of Him with rejection of His ways (and His help and blessing) (v. 21). Frequent use of the passive voice with the verbs shows that influences (NOT God) outside the individuals are affecting the thoughts, minds and decisions of the people deciding and acting. Soon, they start dreaming up myths, imaginings and “What ifs” about God.
      Next in the progression (v.23) is an overt move (by decisions and choices) to open idolatry.
      Therefore, God has to at that point wash His hands of them and has to turn the lot of them over to another spiritual influence.
      v.25 – Then, in order to justify their evil – knowing they are wrong, they have to alter God’s word, teaching and practices of those who stay in the right paths. That means they have to get into the pulpits, teach in the seminaries and run the demoninations.
      Thus you see locally franchised-out churches standing at the corners like McD’s, Wendy’s and KFC’s. Only, far as God is concerned most of them should have a RED light over the entrance.
      NOW, this will not be true of many/most of the locally organized and pastored churches. Great numbers of them are excellent examples of Truth and Godliness. Signs, miracles and wonders will stand as God’s testimony to who has His word and practice straight. I look at it this way: the gretest teacher who ever lived never tried to handle more than 12 men and their families close to him. Jesus was a very good positive example. Anything much more is window dressing and ego driven.

      Well, maybe that gives some idea of why God’s ag’in ‘t.
      Homosexuality, the burning longing and the act, is always religion and IDOLATRY. That’s God’s word; I didn’t author or commission it.

      • Alex Frazier

        Mike -

        If you’re denying that homosexuals are born homosexual, your point of view is ignorant in the same way as a person who stares at a dinosaur bone and denies that there were ever dinosaurs.

        The behavior referenced in Romans is not speaking of the same kind of homosexual we have today. It is speaking of debauchery. These are people who had sex with animals, the same gender, each other’s wives, children, etc. That is not the same thing as a person who, from childhood, has an attraction to the same sex. A homosexual man sees other men the same way that I see women. They find them attractive and desirable. They want to be with them. They see the opposite sex as entirely undesirable and have no attraction to them whatsoever. They would consider kissing a woman the same as I consider kissing a man. Disgusting.

        Now, just to say so, your post to me was a bit pretentious, and perhaps presumptuous. I don’t need an interlinear, a lexicon, or a concordance. I studied Greek. And I’m here to tell you that if you haven’t done the same, you should stop trying to do word studies and reinterpretations based on a lexicon. The passive voice of the verbs has nothing to do with the origin of an influence. It’s also worth saying that there aren’t too many passive constructions in that section of scripture. The active voice is when something does something. The passive voice is when something was done by something. You could say, “God gave them over …,” which is active, or you could say, “they were given over by God …,” which is passive.

        I’d recommend a good grammar book. Try the Chicago Manual of Style. I have the 15th edition, but they are probably up to the 18th or 20th by now. They do try to keep it up to date, and mine is a few years old.

        Please understand that I respect your post, and I appreciate your intent. But you should take some time to consider what you say before you say it. To me your post came across as presumptuous. It seemed like you were trying to name-drop with your talk of lexicons and such. And it came across as a lecture, which no one really wants to hear. Our religion is sacred to us, but it has no legal place in politics, and for good reason. When you mix religion with politics, you end up with witch burnings, heretics being burned at the stake, thousands beheaded because they won’t betray their faith, etc.

    • al

      For those who are really interested in this subject google ‘DES’ and read about this Chemical Compound. It is a real life drama and produced some 25 million gender confused babies in the Western World between the years of 1940 and 1972 when it was removed from the shelf by law. Go to the library and get some of the books written about this farce perpetrated on the unknowing public. A really good read…
      This is almost as criminal as the ‘Oiling of America’ which started in the early 1900s with the bringing of vegetable oils into the diets of Humans. Most vegetable oils are not compatible with human digestion and in fact is toxic to us. Yet big pharma is still producing this poison and selling it on the shelf in grocery stores. Check it out, you will be surprised.

    • Maryland Freestater

      This is going off topic but you bring up an interesting point about a ‘homo-pill’.

      Notice how specific groups of people react to something (medical) when learning of something that might alleviate their ‘affliction’: cochlear implants are rejected by deaf people for their deaf children. People who won’t take their antipsychotics when they know these would help them.

      I’m no psychologist but I understand enough about human nature that people sometimes are not willing to change when offered the chance. Why, it can only be speculated: but as long as people wish to ‘do their own thing’, others need to respect this choice. Seems like a lot of religionists here today, so, perhaps you all should consider letting GOD sort this out on the judgement day rather than trying to do so yourselves.

      With all the stigma still attached to being homosexual, it can’t possibly be a pleasant ‘choice’ knowing that one will face all sorts of problems and ostracism for following this different path. In a way, it;’s also kinda like becoming a fundamentalist Christian.

      Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Nor attempt to force acceptance of your lifestyles on ME!

    • MichaelSee

      Alex, your hormone theory as to why adult humans are, or are not, homosexual is out of pure ignorance. Homones affect affect adult body-types, not brains. If a man had too much estrogen and too little testosterone, he would LOOK like a woman, not a man. The same would be true of the reverse for a woman. This is the situation with people undergoing hormone therapy prior to undergoing transsexual surgery. By the way, not all transsexuals are homosexual either. Some have been married prior to the surgery and maintained the relationship afterwards.

      Not all male homosexuals are the simpering, effeminate “sissy-boy” type. Nor are all female homosexuals are the butch, plaid wearing “bull-dagger” type. Both of those images are depicted in the media as a kind of visual shorthand. As far as male homosexuals go, there are as many big, strong “hyper-males” (think pro football player) as there are whimpy little “femme” types. Again, the reverse is true for women as well.

      There IS a hormone theory affecting possible homosexual attraction as adults. The theory is that some children might have been exposed to excess male or female hormones in utero. These hormones might affect brain structural growth, effectively causing these children to be born as male with a female brain or vice-versa. This is difficult to prove scientifically without doing NAZI-type experiments on human beings (which most scientists are naturally reluctant to do).

      • Karolyn

        Rather than hormonal, I have read the theory that it is chromosomal.

    • Kinetic1

      AF,
      It seems that most of those posting on this article have missed the details. “The bill, which prohibits children from undergoing conversion therapy….” Children, not adults. So when you comment about “homos” being “offended that they suffer from a mental disease as real as depression or schizophrenia.” you are way off the mark. The reason for this law is that parents with a religious or social bias, assuming they know what is best for their children will put them through 9 kinds of hell to “fix” them.

      If the child does grow up to be homosexual, then he/she can make the choice to seek therapy. On the other hand, a “sissy boy” may just grow up to be a slightly effeminate man. I, for one have found myself feeling “attracted” to other men, but have never had the desire to have sex with one. I played football like the other kids, but I also learned how to sew my own clothes. I was a hair stylist and a mechanic. I have no interest in watching football or NASCAR, but I do enjoy going to the Scottish games and watching Rally car. People have often wondered if I’m gay, but it’s just my affinity for architecture, decorating and art. My wife and three kids have no question about my sexuality, and I don’t care what others may think. I’m secure enough in my manhood to accept those things “real men” call sissy.

      As for your theory that “homosexuals suffer an imbalance chemically or hormonally.”, don’t you think doctors have explored that possibility? Don’t you think such a pill would already be out there?

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        NOW, I UNDERSTAND YOUR RADICAL ANTAGONISM.

      • Kinetic1

        CAH,
        Please explain.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Kinetic1,”

        YOU CRITICIZED ME IN THE “Man Orders TV, Gets Military Rifle” THREAD. IN THAT THREAD, I TOLD YOU ABOUT MY SEXUAL TASTES – “boy/man” LOVE AND HAIRY CAUCASIAN MALES. YOU ALSO CALLED ME A “SHOCK JOCK” WHO WANTED TO CAUSE OTHERS TO MAKE ANGRY REPLIES TO MY COMMENTS.

        NOW, “Kinetic1,” YOU SAY, “I, for one have found myself feeling “attracted” to other men…I was a hairstylist…I also learned how to sew my own clothes.”

        YET, YOU TRIED TO “TAKE IT BACK,” BY MENTIONING YOUR HETEROSEXUAL FAMILY.

        “Kinetic1,” Y-O-U-R PROBLEM WITH Y-O-U-R EFFEMINANCY IS NO REASON TO RIDICULE ME. I AM A M-A-S-C-U-L-I-N-E AND PROUD MALE HOMOSEXUAL.

        “Kinetic1,” YOU ARE AN ADULT WHO HAS MADE SOME INTELLIGENT COMMENTS IN VARIOUS THREADS. WHY DID YOU “HIGHLIGHT” YOUR INSECURITIES AS A MAN?

        YOUR OPINION OF ME IS HYPOCRITICAL.

      • Kinetic1

        CAH,
        Nice try. This article was about a new law preventing parents from seeking radical treatment for children they thought might be gay. Clearly my point was that a boy who enjoys “sissy” activities, or who is able to appreciate the attractiveness of another male may grow up to be a heterosexual male without any treatment. Being a man is not about football and beer, but confidence and inner strength. As I said, I’m secure enough in my manhood to accept those things “real men” call sissy.

        WHOLY COW! I just returned “Man Orders TV, Gets Military Rifle” to insure that I was accurate in my recollections and found that you had added a new post relating to this conversation! That was over a week ago. Who does that?

        As for being hypocritical, you outed yourself replying to an article about a man receiving a gun instead of a TV. Somehow you managed to take a story about Amazon’s failure to deliver the right product and turn it into a reason to complain about the sites failure to accept man/boy love. At least my personal revelations were related to the conversation. And I did not criticize your homosexuality, but your acceptance and apparent promotion of pedophilia.

      • Kinetic1

        CAH,
        By the by, my accusation that your goal is simply to elicit shocked or angry replies is only strengthened by your decision to parse my comments and list them out of context. Not that I deny saying the things you listed, but only in the way you presented them could you claim that I “TRIED TO “TAKE IT BACK,”. Your methods are as cheep as those of the conservative talking heads so often quoted on this site.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Kinetic1,”

        YOU ARE AN “ANSWER DODGER.”

        YOU A-S-K-E-D ME TO “Please explain” WHY I SAID I UNDERSTOOD YOUR RADICAL ANTAGONISM. I D-I-D N-O-T SAY MY COMMENT HAD A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE’S TOPIC. I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION BASED ON WHY I MADE THE ORIGINAL REPLY. YOUR “Nice try” COMMENT WAS SILLY.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Kinetic1,”

        IN REFERENCE TO “OUTING” MYSELF, I DID THAT ON 8 JULY IN THE “Barack Obama – First Gay President” THREAD.

        MY COMMENTS IN THE “Rifle” THREAD WERE “ON TOPIC.” MY COMMENTS WERE BASED ON THE Amazon.com PART OF THE STORY. I HAVE REVIEWED SEVERAL HOMOSEXUAL PRODUCTS FOR Amazon.com – MALE-NUDE-PHOTOGRAPHY BOOKS, MALE NUDE CALENDARS, “Gay-” MALE CINEMA, James Edward McGreevey’s “Confessions,” Don Lemon’s “Transparent,” MALE HOMOSEXUAL THEATRE ["Edward II"] AND MALE-NUDE EROTICA.

        THEREFORE, COMMENTING ON Amazon.com’s HYPOCRISY IN REFERENCE TO “pedophilia” BOOKS WAS “IN-STEP” WITH THEIR ARROGANCE IN REFERENCE TO THE “MIXUP” WITH THE TV AND RIFLE.

      • Kinetic1

        CAH,
        Man, you are thick! My “nice try” was directed at your attempt to use my words to suggest that I was insecure about my masculinity and your claim that I was lashing out at you as a result. Again, cheap play.

        You are also confused about the issue of relevance. I didn’t say anything about whether or not your explanation of you first comment had anything to do with this article. You asked me “WHY DID YOU “HIGHLIGHT” YOUR INSECURITIES AS A MAN?” and I explained that my comments were pertinent to the article, in that such therapy may be both harmful and unnecessary. My point being that I was not highlighting my insecurities, but using myself as an example of a heterosexual man who’s interests were often mistaken for signs of homosexuality. I then compared this to your post on man/boy love and it’s lack of relevance to an article about a botched delivery. Now you want me to believe that all that tripe about your erotic homosexual book reviews was relevant because of Amazon’s “ARROGANCE IN REFERENCE TO THE “MIXUP” WITH THE TV AND RIFLE.”? the only thing the article said about Amazons response was “The Post said Amazon did not respond to calls for comment.” Your concept of relevance and mine are VERY different.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Kinetic1,”

        YOU ARE DETERMINED TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION Y-O-U-R WAY – I CAN LET YOU HAVE IT!

        YOUR “SLICK” TACTICS ONLY PROVE YOUR INABILITY TO COMPREHEND.

        I HOPE YOU GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL; AND, I HOPE YOU HAVE A JOB WHICH PAYS ALL OF YOUR BILLS – IN FULL.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Kinetic1,”

        JUST IN CASE – HISTORICALLY “black” COLLEGES ARE “SHAM” INSTITUTIONS.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Kinetic1,”

        I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT OUR DISCUSSION ALL DAY.

        YES – I TOLD “Ron r,” “I A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y HATE “black” PEOPLE! PERIOD!” THAT WAS THE TRUTH, BUT, I TYPED IT IN ANGER. THE TRUTH SHOULD ALWAYS BE SPOKEN IN A CALM MANNER.

        THE MORE TIME I SPEND ON THIS SITE, THE MORE INTENSE MY FEELINGS GROW FOR CERTAIN Personal Libertarians. I HAVE A “TOP TEN” LIST OF FAVORITE Personal Libertarians. THIS LIST INCLUDES A SELF-IDENTIFIED NEGRO AND ANOTHER PERSON I STRONGLY BELIEVE TO BE NEGRO. “Kinetic1,” YOU ARE OUTSIDE OF MY “TOP TEN,” BUT, YOU ARE NOT FAR BEHIND.

        WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY, “Kinetic1,” IS I WANT US TO GET ALONG.

        WITH SINCERITY,
        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • Kinetic1

        CAH,
        Thanks for the kind words. I understand that things get a little heated on this site (though despite popular opinion, I am rarely that upset) but I can’t help but respond when I feel my words have been misunderstood or, worse still purposely manipulated.

        With regards to getting along, it all depends on your interpretation. It’s fairly clear that we do not share the same opinion in many matters, but I’m happy to have a reasonable debate about politics and most social issues without resorting to name calling and lies. Unfortunately there is little I can say or do regarding your lifestyle choices. I have no issue with homosexuality, so long as it is not forced upon my life. Same sex marriage, same sex parenting and what goes on between two consenting adults in one’s home are nothing for me to concern myself with. Pedophilia is another matter. I spent much of my life working with tweens and teens and have seen the devastating effects of an adult taking advantage of a child’s trust. To rob a boy or girl of their childhood is one of the most heinous crimes I can imagine. I understand that you do not involve yourself directly in such activities, but your words imply that you may condone them. I do my best not to be judgmental, but there is a line.

        RJF

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Kinetic1,”

        THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY. I THINK A GOOD IDEA FOR US IS IF WE CAN NOT FIND “COMMON GROUND” IN A DISCUSSION, LET US “WALK AWAY” BEFORE THINGS GET “UGLY.”

    • Jeff

      What you say seems unlikely, at least as far as hormones go. There does not appear to be any testosterone deficiency in many, many gay men.

  • Jim

    More crap shoved down your throat by the homosexual lobby to obtain the reward that they covet and that is to become a minority status and get rewarded for their sick sex practices. Queer Nation the sacred socialist agenda must not fail to happen. Why anyone should be rewarded for the way they have sex is beyond me. When will Hetrosexuals get special treatment for jobs and such? Not in our life time.

    • Doc Sarvis

      Okay, they are actually reducing the taxpayer’s burden by not having this program. You are against that?
      Homosexuals are not out to be rewarded anything that heterosexuals don’t already have. Relative to homosexuals, heterosexuals already get “special treatment for jobs and such as there is discrimination against homosexuals largely by the heterosexual majority.

      • Mike in MI

        Oh,…Ri-i-ight…Dic -
        I suppose that YOU would probably also argue that all the other plagues on humans, caused by other curable causes, should be let to proceed to epidemic proportions because the health departments might be caused to spend some extra bucks.
        ‘Course what difference would it make? Because of Obama we’re flat broke anyway. So, the next bad epidemic that gets started will probably leave carcases in the streets.
        How will they recognize you, Doc?

      • Doc Sarvis

        Mike in MI,
        Of course you should realize that homosexuality (AND heterosexuality for that matter) is not a plague. There is nothing wrong with two consenting adults of mixed or the same sex to build a life together. It hurts nobody and actually is good for society.

      • Chester

        Mike, you just jumped on the same bandwagon the people who WROTE that law California’s citizens are rejecting are riding, that homosexuality is something that CAN AND MUST BE CURED. That has nothing to do with vaccination programs, or treatment for TB, the Plague, or even AIDS.

    • Smilee

      What you see as sick sex is natural and normal for them, the problem you have is you cannot respect them or accept them, you only wish to control them. What have you got against live and let live if it does not actually hurt you. Ever stop and think about the hurt you may be imposing on them.

  • Baloney Toney Mahoney

    The Mahoney Man says: The issue here is interference in parent’ s upbringing of their children…pure & simple…..and why should the homosexual lobbyists impose their same-sex marriage crap on those who believe it is a perversion & will bring judgement upon this nation….their whole agenda is to legitimize a perversion & call it normal Every single time, the people have had a vote on this, All 32 times, they have voted it down, it is only legislators & judges who have rammed this darkness down our throats….the mixed race analogy does not hold, because although, that was denied due to bigotry, the law was still very clear, that it was NOT equal protection under the law, but here there is NO FEDERAL LAW that legalizes same-sex marriage & I pray there never is one!!!!

    • al

      Actually, it appears the fight is over the term ‘Marriage’. No one seems to be against the people or the contract to live together and share their lives.
      So really all we have to do is enforce the 1st Amendment. ‘The government can make no law concerning the establishment of a religion’. If the government cannot make a law establishing a religion then by extension the government cannot make any law that dis estabilshes a religion. The term ‘Marriage’ is a Biblical Term and defined as such in the Torah with this definition ‘it is the union of a man and a woman’. So we have the government stealing the Biblical term and applying it to Civil Law with the same definition for the last 200 years. Now they want to redefine this Biblical Term to be something other than as defined in the Torah. This is the disestablishing of Religion which is against the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.
      It appears that the ACLU should get involved and sue the government for this highjacking of the Biblical term Marriage and redefining it to mean something contrary to its Biblical position….

    • Smilee

      They are not imposing their lifestyle on you unless they are trying to engage you in their lifestyle practices which this is not about, you however are trying to impose your beliefs and will on them. Many legal scholars think that the Constitution prohibits any law that discriminates and the court has found this to be the case in CA that it is against the US Constitution and if the SC agrees to hear it (it has been presented to them) they will decide that most likely next year. If they say that states cannot discriminate then no where in the US will gays be denied the right to marry. I think that all people should be able to get Civil Personal Relationship legalized by the state and a marriage certificate from their church. Drop the name marriage in civil law all together then gays could only marry in a church if the the church allows but all would then be under the same laws that have been giving benefits to only marrieds but to no one else and remove all discrimination from the issue.

    • Jeff

      Your attitude toward gayness will soon be as quaint and out of date as the idea of inter-racial marriage as controversial in the 60s. Young people, even the conservative ones, just don’t see the issue. Already probably a small majority or Americans believe in gay marriage; in 20 years, it will be an overwhelming majority,

      Maybe this is a way for Democrats and Republicans to work together on a global warming bill. Democrats think CO2 levels have something to do with monster storms and Republicans think they’re caused by gay sex. Surely someone can work out a grand compromise to protect us from hurricanes and earthquakes.

  • gunner689AI

    Ca. is trully land of fruits and nuts.

    PC is BS

  • Baloney Toney Mahoney

    The Mahoney Man says: Only understanding life in terms of Karma & Reincarnation can explain homosexuality..God does not create homosexuals, God does not create imperfection…In one of their previous embodiments, they have engaged in this darkness & rebelled against God,(as most do in some manner), and now have a momentum on it, so it APPEARS they were born this way…DNA, brain tests, hormones will not explain this…rather than face this & heal their souls, they rather try to legitimize the perversion & get everyone else in society on board & that is why they are so intolerant & sensitive of those who speak the truth about what they are doing…they & their enablers in Hollywood, the Madison ave. crowd, our public schools are in fact, a bunch of hateful bullies, ramming this crap down out throats….That is what is going on here with this bill, anything not to call it what it is…A SINFUL SICKNESS & REBELLION AGAINST THE LIGHT OF THEIR CREATOR!!!!

    Deep in our hearts & souls in ALL OF US,, the LAW is written, COSMIC LAWS, NATURAL LAWS, it’s just covered up by our misuse of our free will energies over many embodiments…many homosexuals know this, but are not ready to put in the hard work needed to overcome it, they rather get everyone to say they are “NORMAL”…..It is a bunch of Baloney says the Mahoney Man !!!!!

    • Alex Frazier

      And I’m sure God doesn’t create children with lukemia, down syndrome, enlarged hearts, etc. I guess they’re just wicked sinners like the homos.

      • http://none Charlie

        Alex, Heathen, the short answer is “the sins of the father are sometimes passed on to others” ,,, don’t have that scripture on top of My head but you know how to read???

      • Baloney Toney Mahoney

        The Mahoney Man says: These soul’s karma in this lifetime is to be born with these diseases, Yes! All have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God. God does not create imperfection & suffering & sickness, it is our free will choices that do !!!! You see , Free Will is not really Free, it has to be returned to God by obeying His Laws…the choice to disobey is rampant in the souls of mankind, but the return of karma causes suffering, so souls can learn & be purified, so they can return back to the Heart of God, to the realm of Perfection from whence they first came into physical existence.

      • cawmun cents

        Since you are willing to equate homosexuality to anomylous disease and or physical/mental malformities,then you are saying that it is not a natural way of occurence then,correct?
        So then there must be treatments for that particular deviant genetic malfunction,correct?
        Just asking…..
        Cheers!
        -CC.

  • http://none Charlie

    For all you homos ,faggots ,queers and others that think you are smarter than God / King Jesus , The Law Book of God covers that “Sin” at Leviticus 20:13 and about 4 or 5 other
    places in The Law Book for all mankind …
    There ain’t no such thing as Gay rights ,,,IF,,,so let us know where those rights come from… BECAUSE , so called government can’t violate Biblical Law , AND get by with it for very long,,, Obama is a case in point,,,that’s why “Judgment” is , right now, falling upon good ole USA…
    Do you expect God / King Jesus to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah ???
    See Genesis 19;24 ,,,didn’t happen back then ,,,won’t happen now !!! Meanwhile,,,,
    Praise King Jesus for Salvation and healing … Acts 2:38 is salvation…

    • Baloney Toney Mahoney

      The Mahoney Man says: Though, I do not relate to Charlie’s homophobic vitriol & ignorance of basic human rights for all, he is quite correct about this: Namely, what is going on in this nation & many others is a REPRISE OF SODOM & GOMORRAH, and if you think that was a fairy tale, you are grossly mistaken…there are spiritual adepts who can read the Akashic records & saw the destruction there…truth be told, it is even worse, because now there is also the legalized snuffing out of innocent life in the womb !!!

      Charlie & Cathy of Chik-fil-A & millions of others are right: ANY NATION THAT SANCTIFIES HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE & THE TAKING OF THE HOLY INNOCENTS OF GOD IN THE WOMB IS DOOMED……it is unavoidable!!!

      • Karolyn

        Balony – I DON’T CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO AS LONG AS IT DOESN’T HURT ME! (as it should be). “Live and let live.”

      • http://none Charlie

        Karolyn,, heathen, check out scientific law that says , crap rolls down hill, that’s why ,what those that live around you do ,,,WILL POLLUTE you….

      • Karolyn

        And wha’s wrong with being a heathen? I believe in a God that is Universal Intelligence, not some man-made entity. I respect your right to believe what you believe Baloney. Respect mine!

      • http://none Charlie

        Karolyn, heathen ? if the shoe fits ,wear it ,,,If not ,,throw it back to Me with sarcasm shoe
        strings …But don’t forget ,,,
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Karolyn says: I believe in a God that is Universal Intelligence…not some man-made entity.

        Who came up with the above concept…was it not man?

    • Vigilant

      Dear Dr. Laura:

      Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination… End of debate.

      I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.

      1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

      2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

      3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

      4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbours. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

      5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. Clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

      6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?

      7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?

      8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

      9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

      10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

      I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

      Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging

      • Baloney Toney Mahoney

        The Mahoney Man says: Sarcasm aside, putting the bible aside… anyone who cannot feel within their heart & soul that homosexuality is a perversion of God’s Laws, (not those in books, but in the heart), is severely disconnected from the Divine Source…some of.Mankind are so removed from the Perfection of God & his Majestic designs, they cannot see these things. Roe v. Wade, a woman’s right to choose? You mean the Freedom to murder her own child!!!! That is a precious soul of God in that womb, not a wart to be removed & thrown in the trash…do you need the Bible to tell you that?????

        If it is all only Love & Commitment, then why can’t three people get married or a person marry their dog or horse?

      • Karolyn

        Why can’t 3 people get married. I believe that if we each connected to the devine source within we would be more accepting of whatever another person is, decides to be or does. As far as abortion goes, no one knows when spirit enters the body; and even if if does enter at conception, the spirit does not die; so in essence there is no such thing as “death” as commonly defined. I believe in reincarnation.

      • Alex Frazier

        1. We are in a period of Jubilee. All slaves have to be set free.

        2. See #1.

        3. You shouldn’t be asking “most women,” but your wife, and you should have no problem knowing it is that time.

        4. The daily sacrifice was taken away. The temple was destroyed. Sacrifices are no longer required. You’ll find that in the prophets.

        5. The New Testament says not to let any man be your judge concerning new moons, feast days, or sabbaths.

        6. The gospel of Mark says that Jesus declared all food clean. The same is implied in Acts. And Paul says in Romans to eat what you are given (assuming you don’t find it repulsive).

        7. There is no altar of God. The temple is gone. So I don’t think your glasses will matter.

        8. The prohibition on round the corners of your head and marring the corners of your beard are specific to Jews, because they are “a peculiar people” who belong to God. The same obligation was not put on heathen and gentiles.

        9. If you feel unclean after playing football, there are processes in Leviticus by which you can be made clean. So fear not.

        10. Is your uncle planting on the tribal inheritance land of an Israeli tribe?

        Your post is funny and clever. But don’t be a schmuck. The New Testament declares us no longer under the law, but under grace. The Old Testament no longer applies.

        However, the sentiment of homosexuality being an abomination is carried over into the New Testament. With or without the law of Moses, it’s disgusting.

      • Vigilant

        Alex says, “But don’t be a schmuck. The New Testament declares us no longer under the law, but under grace. The Old Testament no longer applies.”

        Don’t tell me, Alex, tell those who quoted or referred to the Old Testament injunctions against homosexuality.

        THAT was my point.

      • http://none Charlie

        Vigilant,,, All that the Bible says can be done,,,BUT,,,you are leaving out a lot of Scripture that goes along with what Scripture you did write ,,,WHICH,,,means you do NOT know the
        Bible Equation for Truth ,,,it’s located at Psalm 119:160… Heathen , you can’t blow smoke
        on a true Christian…

      • cawmun cents

        Actually Vidge….
        Those Laws were written specifically for the folks who took over the land of Canaan.
        But within the law/s is the phrase(and prevailing understanding)stating that God considers
        homosexuality an abomination.
        Though the laws were written for the specific folks who were taking the land of Canaan,the phrase and scripture would summarily indicate that then,and forever God considers homosexuality an abomination.
        It is also indicated in other areas of the Bible as well…..for instance,Romans 1:18-32,
        where it clearly states that God’s wrath will come against homosexuals.
        Cheers!
        -CC.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Since God regulated slavery in the Old Testament, does this automatically mean that He approves of slavery? Just as some today answer “yes,” the Pharisees in Matthew 19 also wrongly assume that regulation equals approval when they ask Jesus this question:

        “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” And [Jesus] answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?…What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

        They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.”

        Notice what happens here. The Pharisees come with a legal question about which regulations ought to govern divorce, and Jesus responds in a very unexpected way, saying there shouldn’t be any divorce. The Pharisees are immediately confused. “But how could it be that there shouldn’t be any divorce if God regulated it? Doesn’t that mean He thinks it’s hunky-dory as long as it’s done right?”

        Jesus makes it clear that this is not the case.

        The Pharisees had missed something very important about law: there’s a difference between what’s legal and what’s moral—between the practical need to deal with reality and the existence of an ideal. The Law was not meant to be a list of everything moral and immoral. It functioned as every national set of laws functions—as reasonably enforceable rules to govern their society. And the Pharisees had made the mistake of focusing on merely staying within the regulations instead of going beyond them to seek the goodness of God’s ideal.

        As with divorce, the same was true for slavery. The rules regulating slavery were added “because the hardness of the hearts” of humanity had created a situation where slavery existed and served certain functions in their societies, “but it was not that way from the beginning.”

        In the beginning, there was human dignity and equal value resulting from the fact that every single individual—young or old, rich or poor, royal or commoner—was made in the image of God. But after the Fall, the ideal society was out the window, and God had to deal with what was actually there.

        Deeply ingrained cultural patterns don’t change overnight, but must be redeemed over time. Slavery was intricately woven into the cultures of the day, so, as with divorce (neither being the situation God desired), God made rules to keep the evil of the practice to a minimum.

        For example, if you kidnapped someone and made him a slave, you were put to death.

        If a slave escaped from his master for whatever reason, you were not allowed to return him. If you harmed so much as a tooth of your slave, you had to let him go free—in other words, no person was allowed to keep a slave if he mistreated him or her. Slavery in Western countries would never even have gotten off the ground had these rules been followed; the first rule alone would have prevented it.

        God regulated divorce, and yet He explicitly said He hates it, so the regulation of the practice did not mean He condoned it. Therefore, one cannot assume that God’s regulation of slavery meant God condoned slavery.

        All that said (and much more could be said), it also needs to be stated that since the Fall, suffering has served an important purpose in this world.

        God’s highest goal for us is not our comfort, but our more intimate knowledge of, appreciation for, and love for Him. The existence of suffering around us has long been used by God to remind us of the ugliness of sin—a physical illustration of the fact that our hearts are far from God’s perfection, and a reminder of our desperate need for Him and His mercy.

        Slavery has served this same purpose. Freedom is God’s ideal—the kind of freedom found in the Garden at the beginning before the Fall (that is, the freedom to follow God openly and completely, without hindrance).

        And God’s rescue of the Israelites from slavery served for them (and for all generations) as a physical illustration of a spiritual truth. Because they understood the meaning of physical slavery, the invisible truth of their spiritual slavery to sin and their need for redemption could be made visible for all to see and understand.

        And because they knew God orchestrated their release from slavery, they knew not only that slavery—physical or spiritual—was not the ideal, but that He cared about their condition and desired to release them from it.

        The existence of slavery taught God’s people both the condition of their own hearts and a crucial truth about their great, good God. This is why it was Christians in the 18th and 19th century who not only worked to see that others were freed from their spiritual slavery, but who also led the way in following God’s desire to free others from physical slavery.

        Could God have prevented slavery from ever existing? Yes, I think He could have, just as He could have prevented all other episodes of suffering yet did not.

        But just as Joseph said of his own suffering as a slave, “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good,” slavery did not pass through this world without accomplishing a purpose even greater than the suffering.

        http://www.str.org/site/PageServer?pagename=PL_article_did_god_condone_slavery

      • Vigilant

        Alex, Elton, CC, Charlie, Jay, et. al., you are ALL missing my points, which are twofold:

        (1) You all need to argue amongst yourselves, not me, as to whether the OT behavioral proscriptions are valid or have been superseded by the NT.

        Most of you have cited Leviticus as authoritative condemnnation of homosexuality, and then Alex says, “The New Testament declares us no longer under the law, but under grace. The Old Testament no longer applies.”

        It is YOU who need to make up your minds about this, not I. Get your house together.

        (2) For those of you fond of quoting Leviticus or other OT sources, where is the uproar about fornication and adultery, out-of-wedlock pregnancies, eating shellfish, failing to observe the Sabbath, etc.? If, as one Christian told me on this site some time ago, all sins are equal in the sight of God, why don’t these other sins bring out the crew in force to yell from the housetops as you are wont to do when homosexuality is the issue?

        The answer is simple: homosexuality brings out entirely visceral reactions, emotional ones based on your gut feelings. The Biblical proscriptions, therefore, are used to bolster your own feelings of revulsion, not as a guide for life.

        I don’t see anyone getting on a high horse to condemn the eating of shellfish or pork. Why is that, for those of you who believe in the literalness of the OT?

      • cawmun cents

        I dont need to make up my mind about it….God did that for me.
        I think I’ll go with what He told me.
        -CC.

      • Vigilant

        Charlie says, ” Heathen , you can’t blow smoke on a true Christian…”

        Nor, apparently, can you teach him logic.

    • Karolyn

      Charlie – WSodom and Gomorrah went down because they were pagans and worshipped idols and were rapists and murderers.

    • Smilee

      Charlie says:
      August 31, 2012 at 9:26 am

      No where in the Constitution does it say that the Biblical teaching be upheld and enforced as priority over the Constitution, Many scholars believe the so called gay marriage is permitted, in it if marriage is allowed to anyone as the congress and the states cannot make laws that discriminate which marriage does in most states and this could change if the SC rules that way and many believe they will if they hear it..

      • http://none Charlie

        Sorry Charlie,, this Charlie did not say that,,,btw tell Karolyn the name sodomite comes from
        men using the bung hole for sex… Is that scientific or smart ???

      • Karolyn

        I just wonder who came up with that word definition?

      • cawmun cents

        Didnt the men of Sodom try to have sex with God’s sent angels?
        I seem to remember the story of Lot and Sodom differently than Karolyn does.
        But what do I know?
        Apparently very little…..
        Cheers!
        -CC.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Charlie,”

        “Sodomite” IS A Biblical TERM RELATING TO RESIDENTS OF SODOM. DURING THE Crusades OF THE MIDDLE AGES [TWELFTH-CENTURY], “sodomite” BECAME A PREJORATIVE NAME FOR MALE HOMOSEXUALS UTILIZED BY CHRISTIANS. FEMALE HOMOSEXUALS WERE CALLED “WITCHES” DURING THE MEDIEVAL ERA.

        [IN FACT, MANY FEMALES WHO WERE "BURNED AT THE STAKE" FOR WITCHCRAFT DURING THE Inquisition WERE ACTUALLY PRACTICING HOMOSEXUALS. BECAUSE THE Bible VIEWS FEMALES AS, "DIRTY CREATURES," FEMALE HOMOSEX WAS VIEWED AS A LIAISON WITH "Satan." MEDIEVAL PEOPLE BELIEVED - BECAUSE OF HOMOSEX - FEMALE AND MALE HOMOSEXUALS HAD THE GIFT OF SORCERY NATURALLY-BESTOWED UPON THEM BY, "Satan"].

        SO, “Charlie,” “sodomite” ONLY HAS A MODERN-DAY CONNECTION WITH, “bung-hole.”

      • http://none Charlie

        cawmun cents, the angles that protected Lot , gave the homos the Angle Armstrong treatment and also blinded them and the next day destroyed them with atomic heat and
        power… See that at Genesis 19 …

      • cawmun cents

        Thanks Charlie…..
        But I am aware of the scriptural referral of which you speak.
        I just dont think that Karolyn is.
        Cheers!
        -CC.

      • http://none Charlie

        Vigilant , et al,,, maybe Jay better rewrite The Bible for you Vigi’ ,,,ha ha ah ha ……
        Give Me some Scripture that does away with Matthew 5:17,spoken by King Jesus Christ …
        King Jesus Christ confirmed BOTH the OT and the NT,,,PLUS The Law is still valid at one single verse ,,,Matthew 5:17,,,read and heed , not so vigilant , Vigilant…
        Now, don’t tell Me you got the stupidity and foolishness to call King Jesus a liar????????
        What you and others better do ,as We have been telling you at most of My comments, is,,,
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation …

      • Vigilant

        Charlie says, “Give Me some Scripture that does away with Matthew 5:17, spoken by King Jesus Christ …”

        I’ve never argued with you about that. You and Alex need to settle that one.

        But, while you’re on Matthew, perhaps you’d like to read a little farther. How about Matthew 5: 21-31?

        Do you still have your right eye and right hand, or are you a perfect human being who has never lusted in his heart? Ever been angry with your brother, or have you ever called someone a fool? If so, Charlie, be prepared for the “hell of fire.”

        You still believe that someone who marries a divorced woman is committing adultery?

        Understand I make no judgment or argument here, just asking you.

      • http://none Charlie

        Vigilant, et al,,,Heathen fool , you said the OT is out dated and not applicable today… Now
        you’re saying you did NOT say that , maybe We should call you a liar also ,but , for most
        that know definitions of words they use, know that a “Heathen” is also a liar, a fool, and what ever else comes in the “context” of “Heathenism”…
        Have you got a dictionary ? have you got a concordance ? better start using them…
        Logic,,,look it up,,,how are you going to teach some thing you don’t know or understand??
        Heathen, the Bible definition of “Sin” is, transgression of “The Law”, but , what is “Law”??
        Law is , ANY , Command or directive from God / King Jesus Christ… You Heathen , do not
        know or understand Psalm 119:160 which is the equation for “Truth”,,, it also teaches to
        read The Whole Bible IN CONTEXT to arrive at “Truth” on ANY particular subject matter…
        Now, Heathen, read Matthew 15:1–11, to find out who you are and what you are…
        Heathen, you are nit picking at The Word of God which is The Holy Bible, hoping to make
        Christians and The Bible appear to be foolish…
        Now, IF,,, you have accomplished Acts 2:38 PER The Book, and you can prove the above
        to be wrong basically ,,,then,,, I will apologize on this site for any error… Meanwhile,,
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation…

      • Vigilant

        Laughably, Charlie lies when he calls me a liar, with “…you said the OT is out dated and not applicable today… Now you’re saying you did NOT say that , maybe We should call you a liar also ,but , for most that know definitions of words they use, know that a “Heathen” is also a liar, a fool, and what ever else comes in the “context” of “Heathenism”…”

        Charlie, I NEVER said the OT is outdated or not applicable. If you had any reading comprehension, you would have noted that I made no value judgment whatsoever. I said you Christians were making contradictory claims, some that the OT was still good, and others saying that it was superseded.

        And, now that you’ve called me a fool, you need to read Matthew 5:22. Looks like you’re “liable to the hell of fire.”

        I’ll accept that apology any time you’re man enough to proffer it.

    • Jeff

      Could you say that in English? My English-Gibberish dictionary fell in the pool.

  • rendarsmith

    Suppose someone who is gay WANTS to undergo that therapy. So much for freedom of choice….

    • Karolyn

      That’s a rather ignorant remark. Anybody can get the therapy if they want. This is about forcing children, who may or may not be gay to undergo the therapy. Children are forced t fit into their parets’ molds as it is and should not be.

  • GRAMPA

    When is its governments decision on what is normal? will government say next If you don’t agree with me you will get treatment until you do? I personally think that the homosexual community’s are an abomination. I also feel that they have a personal choice.
    I also choose to reject their beliefs, so don’t force me to accept them. Once government forces any one’s beliefs on another you violate individual liberties. Government cannot force anyone to change there moral beliefs. YET. They however are trying. It may sound benevolent to try to provide assistance to a homosexual to change to heterosexual, but when would assistance then become law? It would only be a short step for government who, with the pretense of “helping” would only secure more power for themselves.
    Be afraid people!!! And watch what your politicians are doing.
    God Bless America.
    Grampa

  • Munnster

    This is another sign of the tyranny that we are headed for in this country. Who the flip thinks it is acceptable for the PRK government or any government for that matter, to tell me how I should raise my child? What’s next? Teaching the Constitution? Anything that dissents against the liberals agenda? Be afraid, be VERY afraid.

    • Doc Sarvis

      Ah yes; FEAR, the go to tactic when one tries to influence the less educated.

      • Vigilant

        Watched any pro-Obama ads lately?

    • http://none Charlie

      Munnster,,, what did King Jesus say at Mark 4:40?

      • http://none Charlie

        Vigilant,,, Are you a true Christian per The Bible???

  • Baloney Toney Mahoney

    Dear Fellow American,

    A battle has been playing out in public universities throughout the country over the past two years.

    It began when two graduate schools expelled students enrolled in Counselor Education Programs because they had religious beliefs that — according to the school — prevented them from effectively counseling homosexuals.

    In Georgia, Augusta State University expelled Jennifer Keeton for what administrators deemed as extreme religious beliefs.

    Because of her devotion to her beliefs, Keeton refused to take part in remediation courses designed to alter religious beliefs concerning homosexuality.

    Around the same time in Michigan, Julea Ward found herself in trouble when she asked her advisor for advice on counseling homosexual students, since it interfered with her religious beliefs.

    Ward was immediately expelled from Eastern Michigan University Graduate School without warning.

    Keeton and Ward filed appeals with the schools and failed. The girls faced interrogation concerning their religious beliefs during the appeals process.

    Once their appeals failed, Keeton and Ward filed lawsuits against their respective schools for violation of constitutional rights.

    In both cases, the courts sided with the schools and the radical Homosexual Agenda.

    However, Julea Ward won an appeal for a retrial with a jury as well as the right to sue the school for discrimination in federal court.

    While the mainstream media has refused to report on these cases, Public Advocate supporters have repeatedly come to their aid.

    Together, you and I garnered a tremendous amount of support for Keeton and Ward through petitions, phone calls, direct mail, and email. Thousands of people joined us.

    In response to this outcry generated by Public Advocate, the Michigan House of Representatives recently passed the Julea Ward Freedom of Conscience Act to prevent discrimination against religious students in the future.

    However, it is up to you and me to make sure that the bill makes it all the way through the state senate.

    Insiders believe that if does pass the Republican-controlled Michigan Senate; Governor Rick Snyder is very likely to sign it into law!

    This would be a major victory in the fight to protect our young Christian and pro-family students who can’t defend themselves.

    We have to demand action right away from the Michigan Senate,

    Please call Michigan Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville and insist that he does everything possible to ensure that they pass the Julea Ward bill.

    Randy Richardville: (517) 373-3543

    But there is still more to this fight.

    Just one week after the Freedom of Conscience passed the Michigan House, a federal judge ruled that Jennifer Keeton deserved to be targeted and expelled for her moral convictions!

    It is important that Georgia lawmakers finally work to see that Christian students — like Ms. Keeton — are defended from this kind of discrimination and harassment in their state.

    So please, call Georgia Speaker of the House David Ralston and demand that the Georgia House take up their own version of the Freedom of Conscience bill in defense of Jennifer Keeton.

    David Ralston: (404) 656-5020

    Religious freedom and family values are under a relentless assault in American education. You and I must do everything we can to defend this battleground.

    Together, we can finally hold the Homosexual Lobby accountable for what their allies did to Julea Ward and Jennifer Keeton.

    Sincerely,

    Eugene Delgaudio
    President, Public Advocate of the United States

    P.S. Please prayerfully consider chipping in with a donation of $10 or more to help Public Advocate fight for traditional values.

    Because Public Advocate of the U.S. is a non-profit, charitable organization that fights the radical agenda of the homosexual Lobby, contributions are not tax deductible for IRS purposes. This email was not produced or emailed at taxpayer expense. Public Advocate’s phone number is (703) 845-1808, its address is 5613 Leesburg Pike, Suite 17 Falls Church, VA 22041, and its website is http://publicadvocateusa.org/.

    To help Public Advocate grow, please forward this to a friend.

    Click this link to view online.

    This message was intended for: bayburn@hotmail.com
    You were added to the system April 11, 2012. For more information
    click here.
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  • Baloney Toney Mahoney
    • Doc Sarvis

      Thanks for linking to this site. I had not seen it before. VERY funny! They are all frothy about NOTHING.

  • AJ

    Heaven forbid, let’s just turn all those sexually confused children into believing they are gay. That helps out the UN’s depopulation agenda. For you see gays can’t reproduce when they’re married to the same sex. Am I missing something here?

    • Doc Sarvis

      Well they can (and do) reproduce with the help of surrogates.

      • FreedomFighter

        FAKED reproduction.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • Karolyn

        How is it fake when it produces a viable human being. Do you feel the same about hetero couples who use invitro or surrogates?

      • FreedomFighter

        Believe me K, shooting it in a cup or being stuck with a needle full just isnt the same — trust me on this one.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

    • http://none Charlie

      Karolyn,,he just said she was a hired womb…

  • Jeremy Leochner

    Therapy for Gay people does nothing but make them hate themselves. Trying to turn a gay person straight is like trying to turn a straight person gay, it cannot be done. If a person is attracted to a member of the opposite sex they will not change, the same goes for some one attracted to those of the same sex. It cannot be changed and any attempt top force them or convince them to change will only result in mental instability and self loathing. We need to teach gay children and teens to accept who they are and be good to themselves and other people. And we need to teach others to be accepting of gay people as they are.

    • Palin16

      James Bond did convert Pussy Galore from lesbian to straight in Goldfinger. He later said “I must have appealed to her maternal instincts.”

    • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      “Jeremy Leochner,”

      OVERALL, I LIKE YOUR COMMENTS. BUT, THERAPY DOES NOT CAUSE HOMOSEXUALS TO HATE THEMSELVES; IT CAUSES THEM TO RESENT HETEROSEXUALS FOR BELIEVING SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH BEING HOMOSEXUAL. THIS IS WHAT LEADS SOME HOMOSEXUAL YOUTH TO SUICIDE. SINCE HOMOSEXUAL CHILDREN FINANCIALLY DEPEND ON THEIR PARENTS, THEY DESPERATELY WANT THEIR PARENTS TO HAVE A POSITIVE VIEW OF THEM.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        My problem Chris is therapy for gay people is an equating of homosexuality with a mental or psychological problem. How does a person not start to hate themselves and their life if they are convinced that who they are is a bad thing. And since it is who they are it is a “problem” that will never go away. How can telling someone that who they are is a bad thing not lead to self loathing.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jeremy Leochner,”

        HOMOSEXUALS WHO HAVE NO FRIENDS IN SCHOOL CAN ENTER THERAPY WITH FEELINGS OF SELF-HATRED. BUT, HOMOSEXUAL BOYS WHO ARE ABLE TO ACQUIRE “BEARDS” [USUALLY, OBESE GIRLS] WOULD HAVE THE MENTAL CAPABILITY TO ENDURE CONVERSION THERAPY WITH NO ADVERSE EFFECTS.

        IT IS DIFFICULT FOR SMALL-TOWN HOMOSEXUAL BOYS TO FIND “BEARDS;” HOMOSEXUAL BOYS IN URBAN AREAS HAVE EASY ACCESS TO “BEARDS” AND ARE USUALLY UNDETECTED WITHIN SOCIETY – THEREFORE, NO NEED FOR THERAPY.

  • Susan in MN

    Let Jesus have the last word here. Jesus Christ overrode all other commandments in the Bible when He said in John13:34, “A new commandment I give onto you, that you love one another as I have loved you.” Also remember that in Luke 6:41, He said this about judging other people, “Do not attempt to remove the speck in your neighbor’s eye when you have a log in your own.” In the following verse Luke 6:42, He uses stronger words towards people who judge others, “You hypocrites ….” Let your thoughts, words and actions be filled with love for all others on earth, not with judgement and hate, which are against the commandments of Jesus.

    • http://none Charlie

      Susan,,,what did King Jesus say at Luke 19:27??? better read the Bible in accordance with Psalm 119:160 , the equation for Truth, King Jesus / God , have Love and Hate for some things…Also one scripture DOES NOT delete another scripture ,,,don’t be a one liner ,,,harmonize scriptures to arrive at total Truth,,,now,,,I did not say love and hate at the same time for the same thing … Read one word at a time and one line at a time to get the meaning of the total contexts … Then don’t forget to,,,
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

  • Ranchman

    When American politicians outlawed God from public life, this is what the country was left with; sissy boys. We have transformed this country from the greatest nation on earth to one of despicable perversion. We are seeing the downfall of America right before our very own eyes and have nobody to blame but ourselves. We have allowed this insanity and wickedness to flourish. We will be held accountable if we do nothing about it. Those who are against this sort of perversion in society need to make their voices heard. We should never allow a bunch of “sissy boys” to intimidate us all into silence.

    Remember 1776 and Keep Your Powder Dry!

    • Jeremy Leochner

      How exactly is god banned when our money says In God we trust, our national motto is In God we trust and public individuals including the President have to swear oaths on the bible and end with so help me god. Does not seem like God isnt involved in the public sphere to me.

      • http://none Charlie

        Jeremy,,, King Jesus wants more than lip service , liars are all over,,,but Faith is the victory, back up belief with actions ,,,Faith is action upon belief…

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    This news comes as no surprise considering that less than halfway through his first term, President Barack Obama appointed more openly gay officials than any other president in history.

    Gay activists say the estimate of more than 150 appointments so far — from agency heads and commission members to policy officials and senior staffers — surpasses the previous high of about 140 reached during two full terms under President Bill Clinton.

    “From everything we hear from inside the administration, they wanted this to be part of their efforts at diversity,” said Denis Dison, spokesman for the Presidential Appointments Project of the Gay & Lesbian Leadership Institute.

    The pace of appointments has helped to ease broader disappointment among gay rights groups that Obama has not acted more quickly on other fronts, such as ending the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy that bans gays from serving openly in the military.

    In a sign of how times have changed, few of the appointees — about two dozen required Senate confirmation — have stirred much controversy. It’s a far cry from the 1993 furor surrounding Clinton’s nomination of then-San Francisco Supervisor Roberta Achtenberg as assistant secretary for Housing and Urban Development.

    Achtenberg was the first openly gay official to serve at such a senior level, and she won confirmation despite contentious hearings and Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., who denounced her as a “militant extremist.”

    “It’s both significant and rather ordinary,” said Michael Cole, a spokesman for the gay rights group Human Rights Campaign. “It’s a simple affirmation of the American ideal that what matters is how you do your job and not who you are.”

    Gay activists, among Obama’s strongest supporters, had hoped he would be the first to appoint an openly gay Cabinet secretary. While that hasn’t happened — yet — Obama did appoint the highest-ranking gay official ever when he named John Berry as director of the Office of Personnel Management, which oversees the nation’s 1.9 million federal workers.

    Other prominent names include Nancy Sutley, chairwoman of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, and Fred Hochberg, chairman of the Export-Import Bank.

    Obama also named Amanda Simpson, the first openly transgender appointee, as a senior technical adviser in the Commerce Department.

    White House spokesman Shin Inouye confirmed the record number, saying Obama has hired more gay officials than the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations combined. He said Obama “is proud that his appointments reflect the diversity of the American public.”

    “He is committed to appointing highly qualified individuals for each post,” Inouye said. “We have made a record number of openly LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender) appointments and we are confident that this number will only continue to grow.”

    Dison’s group lists 124 of the appointees on its website. He said the remainder are not listed because they are lower-level officials not formally announced by the White House.

    “We learn about a lot of these through informal networks and then work to confirm that they are indeed appointed and that they are openly LGBT,” Dison said.

    One Obama nominee who met some opposition was Chai Feldblum, a Georgetown University law professor nominated to serve on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

    Concerned Women for America accused Feldblum of playing “a major role in pushing the homosexual and transsexual agenda on Americans.” Other conservative groups blasted her role in drafting the Employment Nondiscrimination Act, a bill that would ban employers from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. Obama is a strong supporter of that legislation.

    Obama made Feldblum a recess appointment in March after an anonymous hold in the Senate held up her confirmation for months.

    Another target for conservatives was Kevin Jennings, founder of the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network, who was named to oversee the Education Department’s Office of Safe & Drug Free Schools. More than 50 House Republicans asked Obama to remove Jennings from the post after reports surfaced about advice he gave more than 20 years earlier after learning a gay student had sex with an older man.

    Jennings conceded that he should have consulted medical or legal authorities instead of telling the 15-year-old boy that he hoped he had used a condom. The Obama administration defended Jennings and declined to remove him.

    It was in early 2008 that the Gay & Lesbian Leadership Institute focused its Presidential Appointments Project on steering thousands of resumes of qualified gay professionals to White House jobs. Dison said that push has helped increase the numbers, though it certainly helped to have a more receptive White House.

    Cole, of the Human Rights Campaign, called the increase a welcome development, but said there is more focus on real legislative gains, such as ending “don’t ask, don’t tell” and repealing the Defense of Marriage Act, which prohibits federal recognition of same-sex partnerships.

    “For a community that is denied their equality, there will continue to be frustration at the pace of change,” he said.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/26/obama-appoints-record-number-gay-officials/

    • Karolyn

      Who cares how many appointees are gay? They are people first of all; and as long as they’re qualified, who cares?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        That wasn’t the point of the article, Karolyn. Don’t be so defensive. The point of the article was to connect the “bill” in discussion, to its origin. I was simply making the connection, Karolyn.

      • http://none Charlie

        Karolyn,,, yes they are people on their way to judgment and may take you with them,,,
        are you going to go along to get along ???

    • Palin16

      Don’t forget Kagan, Hillary, and Napolitano…all lesbians.

      • http://none Charlie

        Palin16,,,Are you a Christian per Acts 2:38 ???

  • Susan in MN

    Ranchman, “Judge not, that you be not judged.” (Matthew 7:1) Don’t you believe that the teachings of Jesus are the Word of God? Our country is great because of the wall of separation between church and state. Everyone is free to worship God in their own way, to believe in their own religion, BUT there IS A BORDER protecting your neighbor which you may not cross.

    • http://none Charlie

      Susan, I can do all things thru King Jesus ,who strengthens me. Paul said at Philippians 4:13 … I judge no one ,BUT, The Law judges all , so, We should know The Law… to call in proper judgment …

  • TML

    “Those who voted against the bill believe that the bill imposes on personal liberty. They say that each individual should get to choose whether or not they get the therapy.”

    This is the most reasonable conclusion, There should be no law restricting voluntary council.

  • actual socialist

    Look people it,s real simple you are born with your sexuallity just as you are born with your personality this ” therapy ” is just a inventtion of religious fundementilists who think they are exorcising demons or whatever…. point is if you think it,s wrong to embrase your sexuality then it is your right to THINK that but trust me the majority of others would prefer you keep it to yourself you can still have your opinion ….. quietly

    • http://none Charlie

      actual socialist ,,,are you a liar also ? I have judged you PER the actual words of Truth…
      Get back in your rat hole before you get into trouble with your lies………….

      • actual socialist

        Care to point out WHERE i lied?

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Charlie,”

        YOU JUST DESTROYED ALL OF YOUR Bible TALK BY TELLING “actual socialist” TO, “Get back in your rat hole…”

        FURTHERMORE, YOU CRITICIZED “Susan in MN’s” SCRIPTURE QUOTATIONS BY “OVER-RIDING” THEM WITH YOUR OWN. I AM QUITE SURE “Susan in MN” IS COMFORTABLE WITH HER UNDERSTANDING OF THE Bible.

        HMN…”Charlie”…YOU ARE “S-O-M-E” CHRISTIAN.

      • http://none Charlie

        actual socialist ,,,your very name is humanism which is contrary to The Bible,,,so,,,your
        whole comment is no less than a comment against The Bible… The therapy you and other need is heavy duty Sunday School taught by a Modern day Prophet of King Jesus Christ.
        So,,heathen, IF,,,you have no desire to seek out The Truth of King Jesus Christ , you are
        are in a heap of trouble , BECAUSE,,, you are rejecting King Jesus ,,,therefore He will reject you…

        • actual socialist

          You know it,s people like you that started the inquisition and are the reason for this countreys problems do you know why we lead the world from the 50, through the 80,s? because we had the greatest mind on the planet working around the clock to produce superior technolagy whic lead us to the moon to mars to whole other galaxies and just up into space but down into the seas so they could see where life truley began and do you know how they did all that? experiments.trail and error. they seat a goal they worked themselves half to death and achieved ther goals despite all the obstecales in ther path finacial limitations,the finite power of human genius and the most frequently accuring problem peoples like YOU telling them that by doing ther duty to ther countrey they were stepping on the toes of a god that i can say with 99% certenty you have NEVER seen NEVER heard but never fails to side with you they looked at the world with ther OWN eyes and made ther opinions of what it is and could be while you look at it through a book written TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO and refuse to see how your stubberness is holding not just our countrey but our species back thanks ALOT

      • http://none Charlie

        Horton ,,,honk on with your heathen stupidity ,,, We call ‘em PER The Rule Book and you don’t know The Book,,,you’re in the game of Life and a loser…

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Charlie,”

        I GUARANTEE, I KNOW THE Bible BETTER THAN YOU. BUT, IF I WISH TO USE THE Bible AS TOILET PAPER, THAT IS MY PEROGATIVE.

        “Charlie,” OBVIOUSLY, YOU DID NOT KNOW ATHEISTS HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE THAN THEISTS. THAT IS WHY WE ARE ATHEISTS – WE K-N-O-W BETTER.

        “Charlie,” YOUR CHRISTIANITY IS YOUR BUSINESS. BUT, SURELY, YOU UNDERSTAND A LONG-RANGE TELESCOPE IS PLACED ON YOU. YOUR NAME CALLING SUGGESTS YOU MAY BE ON YOUR WAY TO SO-CALLED, “hell.”

    • cawmun cents

      I am your huckle bearer……
      You are saying that some people are born predisposed to homosexuals,correct?
      So by this it would infer that you believe it is genetic.
      What is your design?
      Have you been designed to do wnat evolution has failed to do with every other species?
      Let me elaborate.
      The humann species has two sexes,male and female.
      Their reproductive organs,by design are meant to fit together,male into female,correct?
      Therefore any sexual activity that is not part of the inherent design would then be a deviation of said design,correct?
      But you are saying that you were born with a design flaw…that is different that the rest of the human species,correct?
      Please remit to me how?
      How were you designed differently than other human beings?
      If you dont have a penis to penis connection,or a vaginal coupler born into your anatomy,then you are by definition,a deviant.
      If you admot that it is something inside your mind that makes you thus…then you have already lost the battle.
      Because you can make up your mind about anything.
      But since physiologically you are like the rest of the folks on the planet.
      Born that one gozinta the other….then when you go against what evolution has provided,you are a deviant….there can be no other definition,since a:you are not asexual,b:you are not designed differently that everyone else.
      This means that you cannot by definition have been born homosexual.
      There is simply no science that backs your claim.

      There…I have pretty much shed light on the fact that you are a liar.
      Since you hake a claim that is not scientifically sound in its proportion.

      Cheers!
      -CC.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “cawmun cents,”

        SIR, I KNOW YOU BELIEVE IN THE EXISTENCE OF A CHRISTIAN DEITY. OUT OF RESPECT, SIR, THAT IS WHY I HAVE NOT CRITICALLY REPLIED TO YOUR COMMENTS. YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO YOUR VALUES. BUT, “cawmun cents,” YOUR COMMENTS ARE NOT GOING TO CONVINCE HOMOSEXUALS TO, “Come to Jesus.”

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “cawmun cents,”

        SIR, I ASSUME YOU ARE ELDERLY. “cawmun cents,” I WILL NOT ARGUE WITH YOU ABOUT MY LIFE’S TRUTH.

        BUT, I WANT TELL YOU BECAUSE I AM MALE AND HAVE THE “CORRECT” MALE GENITALIA HAS NO INFLUENCE ON OTHER BIOLOGICAL PROCESSES WHICH TO HOMOSEXUALITY. “cawmun cents,” YOU SEEM TO BE CONFUSING CHROMOSOMAL ABNORMALITIES WITH OTHER BIOLOGICAL ABNORMALITIES.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “cawmun cents,”

        I MEANT TO SAY, “WHICH LEADS TO HOMOSEXUALITY.” I HATE THIS SITE DOES NOT HAVE AN “Edit” ICON. [I ALSO LEFT OUT A PREPOSITION].

      • TML

        cawmun cents,

        Considering what he/she actually claimed, – “you are born with your sexuality” – I think your argument is a strawman in the sense that you infer ‘genetics’ only in terms of a narrow view of physical ‘design’ while ignoring the biological aspects of physical/sexual attraction.

        A person can not necessarily control what they find physically attractive. Or said another way, a man can’t control whether he is attracted to another male, any more than a man can control being attracted to a female. In this way it is said they are ‘born’ that way.

        In terms of physical design we see in nature, those born with both sex organs, no sex organs, or a variation, so I ask, what determines the sexuality of those individuals? Would it, then, be possible for a person born as a male, for example, to have a biology (hormonal, genetic, or otherwise chemical) that will lead him to have a sexual attraction to other males? I think it’s obvious that if a ‘woman’ can be born with a penis, that it stands to reason that there are people born with an inherent attraction for the same sex.

        In the context of your argument, it can be objectively called a “design flaw” based on anatomical requirements for reproduction, but admits the original claim; “you are born with your sexuality”.

        I will add, from a religious context, that calling it a ‘design flaw’ also admits ‘God made them that way’… which opens up a can of worms for the theist.

      • actual socialist

        Ther is also no science to disprove what i said either they have NOT identified every gene in the human body and perhaps they never will but i must give you credit instead of regurgetating biblical quoates like 95% of posters here you actually took a scientific approach you left out certain details but still a fine attemt for someone who thinks therapy can ” cure ” sexuallity

    • http://none Charlie

      actual socialist,,,Who do you think created ALL of the scientific laws ? Man only discovers
      these laws ,,, better get your nonsense together and make some sense with the help of
      The Creator of ALL that is… Meanwhile,,,
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing … Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      • actual socialist

        scientific laws were created by the universe which was in turn created by the big bang

      • http://none Charlie

        actual socialist ,,,take your nonsense to the rathole ,, We think another big bang is about
        to happen…………

        • actual socialist

          Don’t you have snakes to dance with?

  • czman75

    No, Christopher, you were not born gay, you were just born mentally defective. How long have Drs and scientists been studying this…20-30 years? and no proof or finding of any genes that causes “gayness” Sorry guy (or gal?), find another story to tell…
    Now, go look that up yourself , I did…

    • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      “czman75,”

      I AM DEFINITELY NOT GOING TO ARGUE WITH YOU ABOUT MY LIFE. I HOPE YOUR Bible PROVIDES GREAT COMFORT TO YOU ON YOUR DEATHBED.

    • Rebecca

      No, he wasn’t born gay and even if he was the medication his mother took did not cause it. I worked for many, many years in the field of OB/GYN and I never heard once of a drug that caused a child to be “gay”. There are many drugs that can harm the development of a fetus but none of those drugs are hormones as Christopher suggests. In fact, even if a woman took birth control pills (which are nothing but hormones) during pregnancy it would not harm the fetus. So, either Christopher is BSing us or his mother was making excuses for him.

      • Renée

        I agree. Christopher’s mother probably told him that to make herself feel better. I’m sure that she feels guilt for his choices and blames it on the meds. If this were the case, I’m sure there would have been all sorts of write ups in the medical journals by now.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Renee,”

        BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. NEGROES ARE ALWAYS IGNORED IN SCIENTIFIC STUDIES. A LOT OF THINGS GO ON IN THE NEGRO COMMUNITY THAT CAUCASIANS DO NOT KNOW ABOUT.

  • Baloney Toney Mahoney

    Mathew Staver, Founder and Chairman
    Liberty Counsel

    9/1/2012

    The Speaker of the House in New York recently wrote a letter to a state university demanding the removal of Chick-fil-A from the campus. Her retaliatory action was in response to the company’s president, Dan Cathy, affirming his belief in marriage as being between one man and one woman.

    If given the chance, intolerant radicals would silence ANYONE who dares to support natural marriage. Right now that illegal discrimination is focused on the Chick-fil-A organization. This is an assault that must be confronted! Please see my extremely important call to action below – Mat.

    Dear Fellow American,

    According to recent polls by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life,

    “Democrats have become more supportive of same-sex marriage. Support has also risen recently among independents. Most Republicans continue to oppose same-sex marriage. Among self-described liberals, support for same-sex marriage has risen 15 points…while among moderates the balance of opinion has shifted from opposition to support of same-sex marriage.

    Most conservatives are opposed to same-sex marriage. Support for same-sex marriage among white evangelical and black Protestants remains significantly lower than among other groups.”

    In large part, this trend reflects the effect of cultural propaganda being delivered through the pro-homosexual liberal media. For instance…

    In September, a new NBC television “comedy” show called, “The New Normal,” begins airing. It depicts a homosexual couple choosing a surrogate mother to carry “their” child.

    Meanwhile, ABC’s “Modern Family” portrays a homosexual couple as part of the 21st Century version of the family.

    ++Young people are being used by pro-homosexual radicals.

    Radical groups are now inciting college students to take action against Chick-fil-A, including vengeful protests, boycotts, and a general movement to shut down the restaurants on many college and university campuses.

    This firestorm began over “controversial” statements in support of natural marriage by Chick-fil-A’s president, Dan Cathy. Now, the “tolerant” pro-homosexual lobby wants Chick-fil-A restaurants shuttered and thrown off campuses.

    This is an outrageous and not-to-be-tolerated assault on the Chick-fil-A organization, on the institution of marriage, and on our First Amendment rights!

    Liberty Counsel’s powerful NEW, updated petition calls for further support of Mr. Cathy’s First Amendment rights. We stand with the Chick-fil-A organization against these unfounded accusations and assaults on their ability to conduct business in a moral and legal fashion.

    AND – we resolutely continue to support the natural institution of marriage between one man and one woman!

    Please click here now to add your name to this new, more targeted petition, which will be distributed to the Chick-fil-A organization – and to the presidents of all the colleges and universities considering closing Chick-fil-A facilities on their campuses!

    Even if you joined our earlier effort on behalf of Chick-fil-A, we need you to endorse this updated one, as well:

    http://www.libertyaction.org/365/petition.asp

    ++This issue is about much more than Chick-fil-A outlets!

    When this controversy first erupted earlier this summer, Liberty Counsel took immediate action and rallied over 88,000 of our supporters to make a bold, definitive statement of support for Chick-fil-A – and to put misguided politicians on notice that Americans would not allow them to flaunt illegal viewpoint discrimination in their communities.

    The company has not discriminated against any person or organization or advocated discrimination of any sort! Neither has the firm committed any moral or legal offense to warrant this baseless retaliation.

    Unfortunately, this intolerant response is all too typical of pro-homosexual activists. They will go to any lengths to silence the majority of Americans who believe that children do best when raised in a natural family with one mom and one dad!

    Click here to read and add your name to Liberty Counsel’s petition in support of the First Amendment, biblically defined marriage, and the right of the Chick-fil-A corporation to conduct business on campuses and elsewhere:

    http://www.libertyaction.org/365/petition.asp

    One additional thing – this petition campaign is VERY important. Would you forward this message to several of your like-minded friends? We need to stand with Chick-fil-A while we still have the opportunity to speak up.

    We must resist the intolerance leveled against Chick-fil-A. The Left has continued their bullying and this is no time for us to step back! Let’s get as many people as possible involved in defending marriage and First Amendment rights!

    It would be a tragedy if Chick-fil-A was booted from university and college campuses. We must speak up! We must stand up for natural marriage and the family. We must stand up for freedom of speech. And, we must stand against intolerance!

    Thanks again – and I hope you and your family enjoy this Labor Day weekend.

    Mathew D. Staver, Founder and Chairman
    Liberty Counsel

    P.S. The indoctrination of our young people by pro-homosexual radicals is something Liberty Counsel has been fighting since our founding. It is a daunting task going up against the powerful pro-homosexual lobby and all of their lock-step media mouthpieces.

    But we cannot back down from the fight or meekly accept defeat!

    Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are constitutionally guaranteed to every American citizen. The biblical view of marriage is a value we wholeheartedly endorse and believe to be one of the pillars of American society. That’s why this petition is so important!

    Please take a moment right now to sign this new petition, and then pass it on to others:

    http://www.libertyaction.org/365/petition.asp

    + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
    Note: Please do not “reply” directly to this e-mail message. This e-mail address is not designed to receive your personal messages. To contact Liberty Counsel with comments, questions or to change your status, see the link at the end of this e-mail.)
    + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

    + + Comments? Questions?

    http://www.libertyaction.org/r.asp?U=140280&CID=365&RID=37020945

    Liberty Counsel, with offices in Florida, Virginia and Washington, D.C., is a nonprofit litigation, education and policy organization dedicated to advancing religious freedom, the sanctity of human life and family. Liberty Counsel . PO Box 540774 . Orlando, FL 32854 .800-671-1776
    Click here to be removed from this list or send a written request to:
    Liberty Counsel
    PO 277
    Maxwell,IA 50161

    You are signed up as:****************
    Click here to change your email address.

    • http://none Charlie

      BTM,,, how many organizations do you think King Jesus needs to do Luke 19:27 ???
      NONE, just a few of His Praying Men … So,,,
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

  • Thinking About

    Thus type of therapy should be paid for by those who “think” they can or should change someones choice in life. The same should be for those who are against abortion should have to provide finanically for children born when parents can not afford them. Currently there is a mandate on tax payers to catch the safety net.

  • mattzweck

    no wonder our state of California has problems look were all the loonie bens live
    in Sacramento.

    • http://none Charlie

      mattzweck,,, California has been duped,deceived and deluded by the Judeo christian churches in Smogville (LA) , Fag City (SF) and other polluted places … So,,,
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing … Acts 2:38 is salvation…

  • jim

    Libertarians need to make it understood that a return to a Constitutional role of Government, at all levels, is the answer to the value system war that now rages through this Country. Let Gays get married in communities and States that accept it and NOT get married in communities and States that do NOT accept it. It is that damn simple and it is Constitutional and legal. QUIT FIGHTING !

    • http://none Charlie

      JIm,,, We are not fighting ,,,because The King has already beat the Satanic forces of
      darkness at The Cross, more than 2000 years ago… We are only pointing at The King’s
      Law and His Scriptures to comply with Ezekiel 3:18, AND, to give you all a chance to repent or perish… During the mean time you all had best ,,,
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

  • tom

    We are all born into sin . We have a sin nature . We are taught what is right and what is wrong , then you have a choice to do what is right or wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bible 101 .

    • http://none Charlie

      tom,,,a little off on your course number , you mention no scripture , that’s Bible Zero,,,
      Bible 101 contains basic salvation , Acts 2:38 plus the first two orders of King Jesus at
      Matthew 6:33,,, plus more ,,, then,,,
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing …

  • http://personalliberty Greg Roberts

    jesus had sex with men

    • Rebecca

      That is blasphemy and I hope you get edited out for that comment.

  • Die free

    Let’s see u say that gays want to be married. But the Webster definition of married says between one man and one woman. So u say “let’s just change the meaning of the word! And if u don’t like I u r a small minded, racist, hate Monger.”. Now if we as a society start to change words to mean what ever we want because a small minority wants to have it done, well then I should be able to chafe what ever words I want in the dictionary to mean what ever I want. If u want to be gay and have a partner fine change the law to include the words partner not the meaning of the word marriage. Wanting to change the meaning of the word marriage is like me wanting to change the meaning of the “N” word. No u say. Well I am a small minority that want to reflect my beliefs on to the rest of the people in the US. Same as the gay population wants with the word marriage. If they can then I can. What’s good for one right. That’s the lefts mantra. They do it and I want to do it too. Well. No answer from a small minded racist hate Monger. That’s the left for u. Now as much as I dislike the gay lifestyle u can be gay. But don’t make the rule of law make me say marriage is anything other than between one man and one woman. If gays want the same rights for doctors and hospitals then make the law include the language gay partners accapted not the meaning of the word marriage or I am going to change the meaning of all the words and make u believe that they mean what I want by law. Get it left loons. Now get them fagots (bundle of sticks 1800meaning) off my Lawn.

  • PlainSense

    Sodomy is still unhealthy. Any parent who will vote to equate penetration of the rectum to marriage, and have the government enforce teaching that in our schools is opening up their family to abuse. Same sex marriage follows civil unions, with follows teaching our children to accept sodomy as ok, which follows the moral breakdown. After same sex marriage your children will be encouraged to find themselves to be homosexual, intimidated and called names if they don’t get into crowds that tempt them at their most vulnerable times. Those who don’t want to service contracts for sodomy will be forced out of business (yes it has already happened). And the next thing we will have is hate speech laws (like in Canada) where those who disagree with sodomy will be persecuted by the government. Most people already keep their mouths shut because they don’t want to be called homophobes. Those who can’t see the relentless manipulation and intimidation in the same sex marriage drive aren’t libertarians. Real libertarians still believe in freedom of association, of which we almost have none left.

  • shearwater

    Why should government inject itself into health and wholeness issues. These are for the individual to decide. I guess it fits into the democrat model of controlling . . . what you eat, what you talk about, who lives (abortion), who dies (euthanasia), what doctor you can see, whether or not you can even see a doctor that you can’t choose, etc. Government under democrats is too large, too intrusive, too costly, too ignorant, too expensive, to litigious, too extreme.

    • actual socialist

      But you are ok with the republicans controlling what women can and can,t do with THER bodies who you can or can not marry who can or can not work and stripping the schools and hospitals of all ther funding to give it to the milliatary THAT you have no problem with

  • Jim

    I got tired of reading all the arguments so I jumped to the bottom to comment.
    Chris states that he has a genetic mutation (abnormality or disorder) and Steve states that Homosexuality is a disorder. So now that we have people stating that it’s a disorder without argument, why should we allow the state of California to deny treatment of that disorder?

    • actual socialist

      Because ther is NO disorder your sexuallity is as much a result of your birth as the color of your hair

  • Chester

    Smilee, LOVE your idea about the civil unions, and gays only being allowed to marry IF they could find a church and minister who would do so. Funny thing is, such churches and ministers are NOT hard to find at all. Hate to tell you this, but Mr. Horton on here can become a minister and marry whomever he pleases with only a slight financial layout and a few minutes on his computer. He may not be a minister for a mainstream church, but said church is recognized in all fifty states and by the federal government as a legitimate entity, entitled to the same tax-free status as any Catholic or Baptist church.

  • uvuvuv

    they took homo tendancy out of the ama dsm diagnosis books, leaving gays with real problems in the lurch. if they want counseling they have to pay for it themselves because a psychologist or medical doctors for that matter can’t file for insurance reimbursement without a diagnosis. sure he can put in depression, but he has to send in his notes and it would quickly be obvious that this patient has gay problems, therefore the claim would be evaluated by medical review and rejected. and now california is forbidding help for gays who desperately want to go straight. it’s an arguable premise that they might feel like they are missing out on the simple and satisfying pleasures of a normal life, because they can’t even escape to a movie without seeing guy and girl and girl and guy. this is one of those do-gooder attempts that will have unintended consequences, perhaps higher drug use or even suicide. secretly that might be the plan all along.

  • tim

    You weren’t born gay, you were born stupid!!!!

    • actual socialist

      No timmy that would be you

  • mark foster

    Since when is “PERVERSION” a good thing? Look up the meaning in the dictionary! When will we as a nation stop trying to re-define morality to make some people feel better about doing something that has always been wrong? This is not progress, progress is making life better for everyone. You can’t tell me as a parent you wish your child would marry a same sex partner!!!

    • Jeff

      I would also hope my son would have a 160 IQ and a three foot vertical leap, but we don’t always get what we wish for. The question is if your child were obviously gay, would you want him or her in a loving relationship? It is not your choice whether your child is gay or straight.

    • actual socialist

      You know mark if I were a parent i would want my child to be HAPPY and not worried all the time about earning my aprovel but that could just be me.

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