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California Law Requires School To Teach LGBT History

July 18, 2011 by  

California Law Requires School To Teach LGBT History

In California, a controversial new law, SB48, requires public schools to teach students about the impacts of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered (LGBT) people on American history.

In a statement on his office’s website, California Governor Jerry Brown, a Democrat, said of the law: “History should be honest. This bill revises existing laws that prohibit discrimination in education and ensures that the important contributions of Americans from all backgrounds and walks of life are included in our history books. It represents an important step forward for our state, and I thank Senator (Mark) Leno (D-San Francisco) for his hard work on this historic legislation.”

According to an article on SFGate.com, the website for the San Francisco Chronicle, “Textbooks now must include information on the role of LGBT Americans, as well as Americans with disabilities, though California’s budget crisis has delayed the purchasing of new books until at least 2015.”

“The provision on inclusion in textbooks could reach beyond California, too, as many book publishers tailor their texts to California’s standards because of the state’s large population,” the newspaper reported.

The article said the law was met with heavy opposition, especially from those with “religious objection to homosexuality.”

SB48 “does absolutely nothing to reduce bullying, improve the poor state of our education system, ensure students graduate or prepare them for global competitiveness,” Paulo Sibaja, legislative director of the Capitol Resource Institute, a socially conservative organization in Sacramento, told the newspaper. “Instead it diverts precious classroom time away from science, math, reading and writing, and focuses on the agenda of a small group of people.”

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  • s c

    So Jerry is at it again. Now, in order to be “honest,” people have to discriminate. Now THERE’s a strategy you can wrap your lips around [can't say that]. Who’s trying to blow smoke up your skirt? [can't say that].
    Will kids now get to engage in a big circle jerk, to be honest? [can't say that]. Are people now encouraged to blast their way out of closets? [can't say that]. Maybe everyone should hold hands – or whatever feels good [can't say that]. Jerry, maybe it would be better if you’d take your ideas and shove ‘em [can't say that].
    NOW is the time to take your kids out of school, parents. And if you live in what is truly the land of fruits, nuts and flakes, you MUST take your kids out of those damned schools.
    Big Mutha Brutha is not only out of the closet, he’s in charge of your conscience. When you can’t beat ‘em [can't say that], tell the scum to #%&* off, and let ‘em find another way to fund those damned schools [you CAN say that]. Who’s the real girly man now in California?

    • Karolyn

      Yeah, keep teaching your kids to hate gays and keep the violence and hatred going!

      • Donna

        It has aboslutely NOTHING to do with teaching hate. It has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with MY right to raise my children with traditional values and standands. Being gay/lesbian is NOT a “normal” condition – it is a choice that a very small group of people make and I do NOT want anyone even suggesting to my children that the lifestyle is anything but just that – a choice. Watch as this only pushes the roles of private schools up – then we will see the demands for tax credits because we do not use the public system which has become nothng more than an indoctrination process.

        • Karolyn

          YOU don’t know what you’re talking about and have probably never even talked to a gay person, let alone had one for a friend.

          • Christin

            Karolyn,
            You are such a BIG (liberal) FOOL.

            We can love all people without learning about their sexuality… that should remain private. People should first and foremost be (English speaking) Americas… that is the common thread that connects us.

            Love the person, hate the sin… I have told you this before.

            It is one thing for adult people to accept that behavior, but quite another for children who are not ready to make those decisions. My elementary school age sons do NOT need to hear about SEX in any form from gov school let alone perversions of it. That is MY job as a parent when and should I see fit.

            The CA ‘Gay Agenda” teaches public school children from Kindergarten on up about their perversions of sex… that is PATHETIC.

            Do the ‘religious Conservative heterosexual’ folk get to have a say so??? (which would to be for parents to teach their kids and none taught at school… do you liberals care about our ‘ways’ or only yours?

            No ones’ children that young are ready to hear about sex let alone perversions of it such as mentioned: gays lesbians, bisexual (as is your obama leader) or transgendered… INDOCTRINATION. Just look at the mockery they have made of the American flag above… how can anyone see that as respectful.

            We can only ‘thank God’ that CA is too broke to buy the new Demo Gerry Brown textbooks to corrupt the school children this fall.

          • Kate 8

            karolyn – Schools should not be doing what they’re doing, against the will of the vast majority of parents: socially indoctrinating our children and teaching them to denigrate the values of their parents.

            No one has been teaching hate. That’s just another liberal talking point. What we should teach is to respect everyone, regardless of their sexuality. In fact, why should we even THINK about a person’s sexuality at all?

            This is nothing less than further sexualizing our children, toward making it acceptable for perverts to engage in their perversions with our conditioned youth.

            I have been telling people this was happening, but people don’t pay attention and they didn’t believe me. Well, now they do, and it’s too late.

          • Christin

            Thank you Kate8… well said.

          • CJM

            Yes she does know what she is talking about Karolyn, it is YOU who does not know what YOU are talking about. Listen to the others on this blog…you just might learn something of value. As long as you plan to FORCE homosexuality, lesbianism, bi-sexualism, and transgenderism onto everyone else, you will never convince these responders that YOU should have the same rights as ‘normal’ people.

          • Karolyn

            Christin and Kate – It does not HAVE to be all about sexual orientation. If kids learn at a young age that some families have 2 daddies or 2 mommies, that has nothing to do with sex. That 2 men or 2 women can love each other just like mommy and daddy. The prejudices of children start young. I’m thankful I never followed my parents’ prejudices. Yes, all people need to be accepted at face value, for who they are as a human being. Unfortunately, when you add the label “fag” or “queer”, as things stand, they are absolutely not accepted, and kids learn that early.

          • Kate 8

            karolyn – Names like fag and queer were not accepted in my day, let alone now.

            This is about nothing but shoving their lifestyle down all of our throats. All you libs know is FORCE.

            Why are you such a champion of this movement? Or is it that you will always side with the perceived underdog, regardless of whether it is the right thing to do.

          • Christin

            Karolyn,

            Why have you bought into the notion that there is so much ‘gay bullying’ going on?

            I have NEVER seen anyone bully a homosexual, bisexual or transgendered person …EVER! … Not when I went to school, not when I taught school, and not at any of my children’s schools, nor any other place I ever gone to here, there or in the big cities and I have been all over North America and in two other countries.

            I’m sure people do make fun of them (which is not bullying), but it is NOT as rampant as you liberals say… that is just the way you get EXTRA RIGHTS above everybody else. ‘Making fun’ of some one is just that no matter what the harsh teasing is about. ‘Crime’ is crime whether it is against a man or a woman no matter the sexual orientation.

            There are not so many gay couples with children that we need to educate the entire nation or planet on that subject. I have had to already explain the word ‘gay’ to my kids and I have taught them the TRUTH that it is a sinful life style that is against God’s ways. I have taught them to love the person and hate the sin.

            You know we each have been given a set of ‘challenges’ in our lives…
            some of us may have been born into a family that has: an alcoholic parent or lost a parent very early in life, or a drug addicted sibling, an abused cousin or been raped ourselves, or maybe there was a divorce or our spouse suffers from cancer, or one is poor and does not have a positive self concept and outlook on life, or one is rich and is trapped by the demands put upon them, or maybe a boy is born or becomes ‘effeminate’ when he matures and a girl is born or feels more ‘masculine’…
            BUT…no matter the ‘challenge’ it is up to each of us to seek our Holy God and follow His will for our lives and do that which is right… or one may chose to follow ‘man’ or ‘themselves’ and be outside the will of God… that is each person’s choice.

            But certainly we should not educate children in elementary as young as Kindergarten in public schools about sex, let alone deviant sexual behaviors… that is the Parent’s job and the Government has taken that Parental right away.

            But then you are a liberal, government employee, sixty’s chick who is not a teacher or a Christian, and not married nor have no children, so maybe you do not understand a Parent who wishes to protect their child(ren) from the stumbling blocks and evils of the world until they are ready to handle it.

            Garbage in… Garbage out… as a preacher I once had said.

            I am probably wasting my breath trying to explain ANYTHING to you as God says ‘we are so speak folly to the foolish.’

          • Karolyn

            Christin – You really do not know me, as I do not know you. However, I can tell you that I do understand. I just disagree and feel that it is incumbent upon me to make my views heard. I know that I come away from these discussions with more knowledge than I started with. Isn’t that how we all learn? By exchanging ideas?

      • David

        Karolyn, I have a question…Will this new law help any student find gainful employment in the future? And if so, doing what? I’m sure that some inventors, researchers, writers and the like have been gay just as they were straight. But so what? I find it appalling that Bakersfield has now decided that students should be taught that there are now more than two genders starting in kindergarten. Really? If your little personal agenda comes before educating kids so that they can find a job upon graduation, perhaps now is the time to start pulling kids out of public schools and put them in private schools where at least they will get a good education.

        • Karolyn

          I don’think the whole purpose of education is finding a job. The purpose of education is to produce well-rounded and informed children and adults.

          • Jeep

            Have you looked around the country lately? At the global economy? Our substandard capability to compete?

            How’s that whole “well-rounded” thing working out?

          • Karolyn

            Jeep – If kids were taught more on how to live in this world, we wouldn’t be in the shape we’re in.

          • Rick

            What you’re actually saying is this law is a way to produce bi-sexual children with an “anything is acceptable and anything goes” attitude when it comes to sex. That’s your idea of “well-rounded”. We’re on to you and your tactics of promoting the gay lifestyle. You, madam, are an abomination to society!

          • Karolyn

            Rick – Please don’t make me laugh so much!

          • Jeep

            Yes, Karolyn, kids need to learn how to get along in this world, like reading, writing and arithmetic in schools…and, social skills from parents and home…

          • independant thinker

            Isn’t it amaizing how our country survived for many years without the students being taught “how to be a well rounded individual” but since that has become one of the major requirements in education we rank well vbelow the top in almost every catatory.

            “….. it diverts precious classroom time away from science, math, reading and writing, and focuses on the agenda of a small group of people”

            I believe that says it all.

          • JeffH

            independant thinker, so true and well stated… :)

          • Dan az

            Karolyn
            Just look up at my little brother,This is what happens when you tell kids its ok if your gay but it just adds to a very confused mind that is struggling to understand emotions that they are unaware guiding their little minds.What you suggest is to pervert those minds.Why?Just look around you right now what is missing?A companion? Right?Your choice to only be in the middle of your indecision is alienating you from a complete life whether male or female you are the one that needs to get of the fence.Either you are or your not!

          • Abner

            Karolyn, even your name has been altered, along with your mind. Have you ever been able to produce a child with your tongue? Has a man ever produced a child through their anus.

          • CJM

            The purpose of education is to teach academics so that children can grow up to become productive adults. Social values that include acceptance of others generally begins in the home–it is NOT the schools job to teach these values unless they are shared community values. Your posts are very biased in terms of promoting a lifestyle that goes against the grain; people will not accept that. If, indeed, you are wanting others to share your zealous platitudes for those who prefer same gender sexuality, then do so without the expense of threatening the well-being of the children. If you can change the mind of an adult to your way of thinking, you do not have to resort to brainwashing the young–which is exactly what this new law does.

      • RealPatriot

        For those unacquainted with Communism’s 45 Steps, I strongly advise that you study them. Many have already been accomplished. America has just elected a president who has more in common with communism than he does with America. If you love this country, fight to make sure Obama and his bots do not fulfill these steps. It is a fight too many of us are too late engaging in, but it ain’t over yet.

        Karolyn, I suggest you go to this link and see what is happening to our country. Wake up! Don’t be a tool.
        http://roadsassy.com/communisms-45-steps/
        Here’s a taste:
        13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

        15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

        17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

        24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.

        25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

        26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”

        27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.”

        28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”

        29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

        30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.”

        31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

        36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

        37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

        38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

        40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

        If this doesn’t convince of the control the government already has over us, then you are truly lost.

        • Kate 8

          RealPatriot – Had we had a party true to our American values, they’d have had this information published across the land, and talked about in the media. Instead, even though it’s been available, it’s been kept hidden from public scrutiny while we’ve been slowly desensitized and corrupted, wholly ignorant of where it was all going.

          We had some Congressmen who tried to tell us back in the 50s and even the 60s, but they’ve all been silenced and/or brought onboard with the communists, and we were too stupid to see it for what it was.

          Now, those who need to read it won’t bother, and the rest of us are left to lament the loss of our children and our nation.

      • Brad

        Sorry Karolyn,

        LGBT is a choice individuals make about their sexual orinetation and since California has choosen to recognize LGBT individuals in history, the state has recognized not the person but his/her sexual preference. By relating said individual to LGBT the state has fundamentaly endorsed a sexual life style that only 2-2.5% of the US population subscribe to, so why doesn’t the state endorse God, more people believe in the all mighty? What we have is a state recognizing a life style choice that is fundamentaly damaging to our young children, confusing them evan further. Parents in California will probably start moving their children from public education to private in the hopes of getting them a better education from a broken public school system over run by the union and special interest groups.

        • Karolyn

          It is most emphatically NOT a “lifestyle choice!”

          • independant thinker

            Oh but it is a livestyle choice. The feelings might or might not be genetic but the “lifestyle choice” is just that a CHOICE.

          • Brad

            Karolyn,

            It’s a choice we all make at the appropriate time in our lives. That includes you and I, you may love another woman and or man that’s the choice you have made for yourself, I love women and looking at another man sexually turns my stomack. Yes it’s a “life style choice” no way around it.

          • Karolyn

            Remnds me of the undercover tape of the Bachmann counselor working with a gay man telling him that God made mens eyes to see women as appealing. Come on! Men’s EYES made that way! :-)

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            Two words PROVE IT!!!!!

          • DC/Tex

            ALL SINS ARE CHOSEN!!

          • Kate 8

            Joe H. – Where have you been? Good to have you back!

          • Dan az

            Hows the back Joe?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Dan az & kate8,
            Backs doing fairly good and good thing. got a couple of big jobs in and have been very busy. when you can’t hand off the work to someone else you go like mad!!!! Got em done now so will be back for awhile!!

          • Crystal

            It’s a choice.

          • Dan az

            Glad to fear it Joe :)

          • Dan az

            That was hear it not fear it sorry its early still. :)

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Dan az,
            I understood the intended word! no prob, friend!!

      • CJM

        What on earth makes you say a thing like that, Karolyn? Just because most people disagree with the lifestyle you are a part of (or wish to be a part of) does not mean they promote hatred or violence. There are mean-spirited, violent, untrustworthy, and hateful homosexuals, lesbians, transgendered, and bisexuals just as there are among all other groups. Trying to paint them as put-down, trampled on, victims of society doesn’t cut it. Even when these individuals were referred to as fags, queers, queens, etc……it simply meant they lived differently from the mainstream society; it has nothing to do with the hate-mongering and violence you are dreaming of. Get over yourself–you are not their saviour and certainly not ours. If you want respect and acceptance, they do it the old fashioned way: EARN IT.

      • Crystal

        Karolyn, please enlighten us on positive historical homosexual figures. Harvey Milk as it turns out was actually a pedophile of boys under 16 years of age and a strong supporter of Jim Jones.

    • Ellen

      I don’t care if people are gay or straight. It’s their personal business and doesn’t need to be announced. To require that the important contributions of gays be taught is just foolish. What does their sexual orientation have to do with their contribution? The Federal Reserve Bank in Richmond flew the rainbow gay pride flag on the flag pole with the American flag for the month of June because Obama proclaimed June to be Gay Pride month. This has nothing to do with the Fed, so why fly it? I think gays would be more accepted if they didn’t draw attention to their sexuality. Homosexuality is caused by a problem with neurotransmitters, as are bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. It’s nothing to be ashamed of and it’s nothing to be proud of. It’s simply something to be accepted. Do we have bipolar pride parades?

      • Kate 8

        Ellen – I entirely agree with you. A person’s identity should not be defined by their sexuality.

        It seems, though, that gays and other deviants are often so obsessed with their sexuality that they define themselves that way. And now they’re forcing us to go along with it.

    • Evermyrtlmyrtle

      It seems to me that if you teach the whole truth of the homosexual act, beginning in Genesus 19 and many other places in the Bible, (GOD’S WORD), the fact that GOD destroyed the entire world in a flood, the emotional problems, the diseases related to homosexuality, perhaps it would make sense to teach about it. But if all the unseemly things cannot be taught, it should not be taught. You anti-GOD people may snicker if you like, that will not change the penalities of the condoning or the practice of this habit by GOD. You will come face to face with it when you meet GOD. Do not be mistaken, you will face GOD, one day.

  • Stan Smith

    Take your kids to private or home school your kids! Govt public education is a big failure! CA use to be a golden state now it’s Lead toxic state!

    • Doc Sarvis

      It would be a failure to deny life’s truths/the facts of the world from our education curiculum.

      • Donna

        Pure BS!

        • Doc Sarvis

          How so? This lifestyle is a fact whether you like it or not. All factual things should be taught good or bad. To do otherwise is to deprive our children of a full education.

          • Karolyn

            Absolutely right, Doc. Why do these people want to keep their children from knowledge? They only want them to have selective knowledge.

          • Jbri

            Doc Sarvis, if you really believe your statement, then you should embrace the biggest facts in the universe:
            There is a God;
            God declares Himself to be a Tri-unity;
            The second person of that Trinity has lived and died to redeem fallen creation;
            All His creatures are responsible to repent and worship Him alone.

            I’m sure you must advocate teaching these facts in our gov’t schools.

          • Karolyn

            Jbri – Those are not facts!

          • Cawmun Cents

            Yes….Karolyn would never force selction on us…….haw!

          • Cawmun Cents

            Lets teach them responsible firearms safety too.I have heard that there are more firearms owners,than gay people in the US.Why not offer a firearms class to the kindergartners as well?Theach them how to operate,clean,aim and fire.Set up ranges at the scools.There is an Amendment in the Constitution,guaranteeing that the right to posess shall not be abridged.I see no such mendment for the Gay community.Yet they do not teach firearm oreation,and safety to children.Hmmmm.
            Perhaps these leftists are right(I hope you all see the pun).We need to teach our children about many things we are not teaching them now.How about teaching them how to use and operate power tools from a young age so that they can be proficient at the use of tools when they get out of school?Or even just regular hand tools?The world needs ditch diggers y’know.Lets dress them up in uniforms,slide into their Jackboots TM and make them goose step out to the Chevy Volt TM,after a balanced breakfast of Soylent Green TM(green is the new red).Kindergarten is the place to learn Powertool Operation TM,Firearms Training TM,LGBT Indoctrination TM,Chemical Evaluation TM,Pharmaceutical Rehabilitation TM,and most importantly,Love Of The Government TM.Thank yo for co-operating,with our Mandatory Education System TM.-CC.

          • Dan az

            Doc
            There you go, not giving choice but forcing something against ones will.
            That is not teaching it’s called indoctrination by force.Typical maneuver by the liberal mind set.I could care less, if some one is gay as long as they keep it to them selves,and not flaunt it in my face and force their life style on others.So Doc are you just coming out or thinking of going in?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Cawmon Cents!!!! Very astute!!! Very FACTUAL and Very common sense!!!!!

            As for Karolyn, Prove that gays aren’t a lifestyle and are a natural occurance!!!! you live by yourself up in the hills because nobody could stand to live WITH you!!! Nobody could stand that over the rainbow thinking you participate in!!!

          • Karolyn

            Joe – :-) You prove to me it is a choice!

          • Kate 8

            karolyn – Can you prove it isn’t a choice?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            karolyn, that’s easy. They found a gene that can determin obesity, one that determines all sorts of things, but no “GAY” Gene!!! IT’S A CHOICE!!!!

          • Cawmun Cents

            Karolyn,here is your proof.You can either choose to,or choose not to have sex,correct?Assuming that you are not like the amimals,which are overcome by their base instincts,you have a choice to engage in that behavior or not to,correct?Now…assuming that you make that choice,how is it not a choice who you determine to have sexual relations with?Do you choose a person based upon a feeling you have about them,or is it based upon other criteria?Either way you are still making a choice.If sexuality was not a conscious activity,then you may have an argument.But it is a very conscious activity,therefore one must make choices to who they wish to engage in such an activity with.Human beings,unlike the animals who are captive of their base insticts,have sexual intercourse as a matter of leisurely activity.They choose to do this for entertainment puposes.If it feels good,do it.Or so I have heard.Now…how you entertain yourself is a matter of choice wouldnt you agree?If you like movies then to go to the theater.If you like sports them yougoto the venue.But you still must make conscious decisions to that end.
            Sexuality is the same in principle.You choose to engage in that activity based on your attraction(though that might not be the only factor)to another individual.Since engaging in sexual activity is a choice,then how is it that you do not make a conscious decision about whom you wish to engage in that activity with?In fact…you do makea conscious decision…there is your proof.-CC.

          • Karolyn

            Just like with heteros, it is not all based on sex! What about love and simple attraction?

      • Brad

        Doc,

        Life is taught at home and when a child doesn’t get taught the fact’s of life what do they tend to do, get it from their friends and or other’s on the street. It’s the parents responsibility to teach the bird’s and the bee’s not the public school system. Where does homosexuality fit into a schools curiculm, math “Nope”, english “Nope”, science “Nope”, gym “Nope”. As others have stated it’s the individuals accomplishments through history and or a nations accomplishments that is taught and not other’s sexual orientation.

        • Rick

          Well…..it may have fit into the gym class where Doc went to school.

      • Crystal

        What’s the truth then Doc Sarvis? Give us historical figures that accomplished something because they were having sex with someone of the same sex. How does sodomy win wars? How did one woman having sexual relations with another woman win women the right to vote?

    • Stan Smith

      Gay Activist & Big Govt have no business to shove gay agenda down our throats, We don’t need that crap at public failure schools, It’s the parents job to educate their kids on today’s real world! Not the govt! So public schools have no business to cater any special interest groups-Gays, religion, animals humpers or any other groups! Some parents hates when schools teach kids sex ed. I’m all for it, ONLY when parents & schools get together to teach kids at 14 and up what happens if you have unprotected sex can lead to STD’s, Pregnancy and the consequences of getting STD’s and raising a child as a single parent and see the harsh reality of raising a child, Even if I told my kid about sex, STD’s and having a baby, If my kid don’t believe me saying I’m exaggerating too much! and I be all for it when schools( With Parents Approval) to show films and give the kids a reality check!

  • Karolyn

    BRAVO! Maybe this type of thing will help to lessen the bullying and horror that gay students have to deal with and, in turn, lessen the severe mental anguish and suicides.

    • Cawmun Cents

      The part that I dont get is that instead of the gay person being bullied,the parents of every school-aged child are bullied into putting up with this garbage.-CC.

      • eddie47d

        “The parents are being bullied”? Only if they had prejudice in their hearts to begin with. These classes/textbooks don’t turn students gay or tell them to become different only to accept the differences in others.

        • Cawmun Cents

          See what I mean?You make an accusation based on an assumption.Whereas I as the parent in question cannot even raise a point of order without being branded a bigot.If that isnt bullying,then what is?-CC.

          • Cawmun Cents

            You force 92% of the population to stand up and recognize 8%of the population and you dont call that bullying?You begin to look like the bigots that you lambaste at every opportunity,and you dont see that as bullying?That is where your disfunction becomes your noose.You go from being bullied to being the bully.And then you still call me the bully.Even when it is entirely possible that I have never bullied you.That sir/ma’am is the very esssence of what being a bully is.But you are too wound up in your emotional content to observe such a thing.But you still point the finger of guilt at me,as though I have done some horrible thing.Read Animal Farm,an Orwellian classic.Then maybe if you are half a human being you will begin to understand what I am saying.-CC.

          • Karolyn

            I certainly don’t think it is bullying to educate children to facts that exist in our world.

          • JimRed

            “You force 92% of the population to stand up and recognize 8%of the population…”

            That 8% figure is homosexual propaganda; the true figure is more like 2-2.5%.

          • Cawmun Cents

            The point I was making,is that these people have transmogrified into that which they have been railing against all this time.They are becoming the oppressors.

          • Karolyn

            Well, Cawmun, if the civil rights movement hadn’t happened, black people would still be riding in the back of the bus. Using your rationale, were white people not bullied into accepting them as equals?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            Again you compare apples tpo oranges!!!! Blacks have NO CHOICE as to the color of their skin!!! Gay is a chosen lifestyle!!!

          • Karolyn

            Joe – Gays have no choice! Ask any of them. Once again, why would anyone possibly CHOOSE a life that includes discrimination, hatred and lack of acceptance? It’s not an easy road. Think about it.

          • Brad

            Karolyn,

            Since 97.5 to 98% of today’s society find homosexuality offensive in nature and it’s against the natural order. When can another woman inpregnate another woamn with her tongue and another man inpregnate another man through the azz? Answer those questions using the laws of nature because anything else, you’re just blowing smoke and it’s probably the whacky smoke!

          • thinkingoutsidethebox

            “Gays have no choice!”

            Oh yes they do. They can choose to live a homosexual life style or choose to NOT live a homosexual lifestyle.

        • eddie47d

          C.C. You mentioned that teaching children about gays forces them to be bullied? Indians are only about 2% of our population and they were certainly bullied into submission. So should we make this a better nation for all or keep excluding certain segments because that has been an American “tradition”. I think we can move on and live and let live. I would be with you if the schools made the gay issue the most important part of their curriculum but I don’t believe that is their intentions.

      • Rick

        CC, in regards to your previous post…

        Apparently, Gov. Brown IS taking the initiative to teach our kids how to use “hand” tools. They’re just not the orthodox ones that we’ve grown up knowing. I can see it now…..Gov. Brown will start on a tour of CA schools advocating the proper way to address and operate “hand tools” and it will start with him forming a circle jerk with all of the students from K-12.

        • Karolyn

          Speaking of “jerks!”

          • Rick

            At least I don’t “jerk off” at the sight of some perverted sex act or photo of a child being sexually molested like you apparently must do.

          • Karolyn

            You’re the one who’s the sicko here, Rick. Just can’t keep your mind out of the gutter, can you? All you can think about is sex.

          • DC/Tex

            UNNATURAL SEX IS A SIN!!!

        • Doc Sarvis

          Rick, where did you learn it was okay to talk this way? Get your mind out of the gutter and try to make some valid points instead of this completely inappropriate and completely childish language – if you can.

          • Rick

            Ahhh Shucks!!! Did I offend your fragile effeminate side there Doc? I’m sorry. NOT!!!

          • Doc Sarvis

            You didn’t offend me, you just showed that you can’t be taken seriously.

          • Karolyn

            Yeah, I wonder where Rick went to school.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            since i don’t know where Rick went to school, I’ll guess California! It was probably force educated on him the same as California is trying to force educate these kids!!!

          • Rick

            For those of you wondering where I went to school, it was a small town in midwest where they still educated the students on the 3 R’s along with history (as it happened, not as it was rewritten by the progessives), science, and government. Luckily, my parents had the good judgement to raise us kids in Kalifornia or some liberal/fascist/marxist state like New York.

          • Rick

            oops, insert the word “not” before raise at the end there.

    • ekim

      Karolyn, are you serious, this is simply more of the ” Social Justice ” being pushed on us by the ridiculous PROGRESSIVE ideas of the left. Normal People should DEMAND that if this study group wants a seat in the curriculum, it is done as an elective not as a mandatory course ! DO NOT TREAD ON ME !

      • Rick

        Your wasting your time on Karolyn there ekim. This is the same person that, a few weeks ago, was in full support of the government and the schools asking children as young as 5 years old if they’ve ever engaged in oral sex. Karolyn is one sick and demented sexual pervert advocating the “gaying” of our children in the hopes of cultivating more willing subjects for her own sick, twisted pleasures. Not to mention she’s also jumping on the bandwagon in support of NAMBLA.

        • Joyce from Loris

          She is also a food stamp chick, and gets a pell grant. She is South Carolina’s worst nightmare, a transplant from New Jersey. We are trying to collect enough money to pay her to go back to New Jersey. We call it “cleaning up our state”. She is sick to the bone.

          • Karolyn

            Joyce – There is no need for personal attacks. Why do you find it necessary to attack those who disagree with you?

    • Dan az

      Karolyn
      lessen the severe mental anguish and suicides.So by indoctrinating them you feel that it would help justify the suicides because they are confused by Gods laws and Liberal mind set that if it feels good then do it.If you were taught in school that it is OK to have feelings for the opposite sex and then they come to realize that they turned their back on life’s teachings and feel the guilt and commit suicide then what your teaching is promoting suicide.

      • Karolyn

        The suicides and depression are the result of the lack of acceptance by the hetero population. Put yourself in anyone’s shoes who is bullied because of who they are.

        • Dan az

          Karolyn
          Only a week mind with self petty would commit suicide,Like I said, if you confuse the mind then what are they to think of them selves.When they come to the conclusion that thinking with your lower head only gits you into trouble.But telling them its ok only promotes the insecurity.

        • Karolyn

          Dan – I guess compassion is not one of your strong suits.

          • Kate 8

            karolyn – People commit suicide because they have severe mental disorder of one type or another.

            Lots of straight people commit suicide, too, but where’s the outcry about them?

            Everyone has a cross to bear. It’s up to each of us to learn to overcome and/or accept, and not expect that others should bow to us to make it okay. And anyway, parading one’s sexuality isn’t going to solve the deeper problems inside a disturbed person, regardless of their sexual orientation.

    • Crystal

      Be careful. It may increase it.

  • Donna

    Those who support the gay agenda are missing the point here. NOT EVERYONE agrees with the lifestyle!! That is MY right! It is MY right to teach my children that the gay/lesbian lifestyle is NOT one I consider to be acceptable! It is MY right to teach my kids to leave each person to his/her own choices. It is NOT your right to decide what sexual preferences should be exposed to MY children in a PUBLIC classroom! Now we are spending money on teaching children that the lifestyle that not too long ago was considered a psychological condition has had some positive effect on history. Oh my GOD – are you f*&^%ing kidding me!!!!!!

    • ekim

      No Donna, they are not kidding you ! We should have seen this coming when they first started the SEX ED thing and the removal of GOD from our schools, this is the truth of what that was about. YES, these people think this is funny, have you seen the pictures of them dancing and laughing as they sasshey down the middle of the street or ride their scooters thru town ?
      Hey, there is room on our streets for everyone, but do not push your agenda off on me and my children !

    • Karolyn

      Why keep children in the dark? Eventually, they will be exposed to life no matter how you shelter them. Shouldn’t they know what’s going on in the world. This is not promotion, it’s disseminating information. What a narrow view you have. Just keep perpetuating discrimination and hatred.

      • Jeep

        You liberal “people” (personally I prefer the term “ingrate”) are offensive to me. Therefore, I am going to pursue a legal course of action that will force you to see my viewpoint. I will concurrently make an all out effort to have a particular course mandated within our school system that will force your child to learn the history of the contributions made to this country by like-minded conservative individuals. Conservatives have been maligned, libeled, diparaged and otherwise persecuted without remorse from the left for many years. I can name many strong conservatives who have had thier accomplishments swept under, vilified and just plain misrepresented. This brave minority deserves recognition, and the left is in dire need of some reeducation on the facts.

        I would think that such “open-minded” people like karolyn, doc and eddie would welcome this viewpoint, and I would think you would support my effort to get all viewpoints out in the open…er…out of the closet, as it were. After all, it’s about not hiding knowledge, right? So, let’s hear it for Regan, Cheney, Limbaugh, Drudge, Palin, Ailes, Ryan, Roberts and others who have contributed much to our great nation.

        • Doc Sarvis

          Jeep,
          Thank you for the list, it will keep me amused for the rest of the day.

          • Jeep

            You’re certainly welcome, Doc. However, I take it that you are not supporting those who are different because you do not like their ideology? Clearly they are in the minority, and I always thought big libs liked the underdog. Hmmm…Maybe there is some prejudice in your own ideology?

          • Doc Sarvis

            I am amused because you used the term “accomplishments” in association with those names.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Doc,
            “it will keep me amused for the rest of the day.” Small things for small minds, Doc??? Also, if it keeps you amused for the rest of the day, then you won’t be back, right???? Hey, what the hell, wishful thinking on my part!

          • eddie47d

            Jeep; Certainly wouldn’t bother me if there was an honest conservative point of view taught in our nations schools. Who’s to determine that point of view? Would those lessons include Indian history,black history,Irish American history,Mexican American history or strict Protestant white American point of view. I’ve not seen California’s text books so I don’t know whether the gay issue would be taught in history,science or health class. Maybe some are afraid conservatives would teach hatred towards gays if only their opinion ruled the class room.

      • JeffH

        This is legislation that will be rejected by the people of California just as they rejected same sex marriage with Prop 8. Of course, it was a gay judge, Judge Vaughn Walker, who reversed the ruling against the will of the people of California…go figure?

        Again, the people of California have rejected the idea and are up in arms over SB48,(authored by the openly gay Sen. Mark Leno(D-SF) with support from the San Francisco-based Gay-Straight Alliance Network), and will surely demand that this bill be placed on a ballot for defeat. Of course Moonbeam Brown, based on his past actions, will most likely sign the bill into California law. Look for the history books in California to be re-written at considerable expense and teachers will have to be educated, at considerable expense…taxpayer expense that is.

        This “indoctrination” will start being taught at the K level and I would look for more and more parents to look at home or private schooling for their kids.

        “I think it’s one thing to say that we should be tolerant,” Assemblyman Tim Donnelly said. “It is something else altogether to say that my children are going to be taught that this lifestyle is good.” “Our founding fathers are turning over in their graves.”

        “Writing these provisions into textbooks will further an agenda rather than teach facts,” Assemblyman Don Wagner said. “When we do things, we politicize them because that’s the nature of politics. We should leave education to the educators.”

        • Dan az

          Jeff
          Thank you little brother well put!You can stop wearing moms clothes now. :) ;)

          • JeffH

            Thanks Big Brother for straightening me out…again. I just found all of this so confusing. I just didn’t know who I was anymore…the heels and the wig are going back in “the closet” and the turbin is back in vogue…again. Just trying to get along. :)

          • Dan az

            Great to have you back!Stop listening to Karolyn its corrupting your mind!BTW like the turban! :)

        • http://?? Joe H.

          JeffH,
          seeing as the California school system is broke, maybe this is brownie’s way of trying to make more parents home and private school, thus making it able to close a few schools and save money?!?!?? NAH!! He doesn’t think that deep!!!

          • JeffH

            Hey Joe, always good to see you around. You have a way with words that makes me smile…ya kill me! :)

      • DC/Tex

        It is the parents job to teach morals, not some agenda minded public school teacher. The gay agenda is the worst cancer on the morals of this country.

      • Crystal

        Sorry Karolyn, kids are smarter than you think. They already know people participate in homosexual lifestyles. Your agenda and the LGBT is to get them to accept it. That’s not going to happen, and taking away parent’s rights by not allowing them to opt out of this only adds fuel to the already lit fire. If you can tell us how sodomy won WWII, I’m willing to listen. If you can tell us what historical figures enhanced the country because they were having sex with the someone of the same sex, I’m willing to listen. If you can tell us how same sex practice built this nation, enlighten us all. Just throwing we’re all bigots isn’t going to work as an answer. Give us some real facts, because here in Southern California the teacher’s association is now scrambling to find one figure. Just one.

  • http://rantsofaconcernedamerican.wordpress.com jerimiah son of asa

    I am sorry but this continued push to legitimize this thru open forums make it more acceptable. I admit I am a devoted christian that believes in our saviours scriptures that one side of me loves all people but I do not have to agree with it. I pray frequently for these people that are confused just like I pray for those addicted etc. that they seek out our saviour for their spirutual soul and to help them thru this confusion for I believe so strongly in the scriptures this is not the path to salvation. Just like those that support and push abortion are aids to this if they support and also need to search their souls for normality. I believe we have enough of laws to protect but if this is so loving why do we call these hate crimes. God Bless . I think it would be better to abstain then to commit.

  • ekim

    Should have known as soon as they tried to take GOD out of school that the DEVIL would make his move ! You see, those in charge cannot rewrite the BIBLE, but they get a kick out of rewriting and controlling the laws and actions of anyone who will subscribe to their ridiculous ideas ! PUBLIC SCHOOLS are on their way out but Washington continues to want more money for education, DON’T FIGURE !

    Some personal thoughts and actions are better served in your inner world or behind closed ( closet ) doors not out in the middle of Main Street ! SORRY, but, ” that’s just the way it is ” !

    • Karolyn

      Well, sorry, but that is NOT “the way it is.”

      • Rick

        Well sorry, but that IS the way it is.

      • The Blue Collar Man

        Karolyn. Sorry you get hammered so much on here. You may have best intentions for your “problem” to be accepted, but facts are facts, and your “problem” still remains as not acceptable to 95+% of the public.
        It’s one thing to want others to accept you as you are, and I do accept you as a fellow human being, but I don’t want young children to be educated in your “Life Style”.
        Where would it stop? What is education?
        Suppose you had children in a public school, in a Govenmental type of class. How would the subject be taught? Glossing over the subject, or some detail? Maybe charts, pictures, storys?
        How would you teach the alternative life style? Glossing over the subject, or with charts, pictures, storys?
        Sounds like porn to me, and with those actions, I would expect teachers to be charged with a crime, and jailed.
        Argue with me HOW, or why, that wouldn’t be the case.
        You are being simple by not contemplating to whole picture.

  • home boy

    what a country. land of the free home of the morons. you want to teach this crap ,due it in college where the student has a choice to learn it. these board of ed council fokes need to spend some in the coco nest.

  • alex

    Explain to children whot the sex doing these animals. This society receives for its tolerance for scoundrels, rather than to enact laws to send them to prison. Homosexuality is a serious crime.

    • Karolyn

      Before condemning homosexuals, at least please study English, so you know how to write it.

      • JeffH

        K, being a bit mean spirited today are we? You’re revealing yourself to be a hypocrit.

        • Karolyn

          Well, Jeff, you do it all the time. What’s good for the goose….. Mean-spiritedness, prejudice, and bigotry tend to bring out that part of me, though I do try not to buy in. I am only human.

          • JeffH

            Well Karolyn, at least I’m not confused about who I am or what I believe in and, unlike you, I certainly don’t consider myself contradictive or a hypocrit. I’m consistent day in and day out. I can be swayed and change my mind on issues just like most prople can because i can differentiate “good from bad”. I just don’t advocate the “do as I say, not as I do” mentality.

          • Kate 8

            Well said, JeffH.

            Karolyn will defend deviant’s right to overrule parental choice, but will not defend people’s right to choose what they want to expose or indoctrinate their children into.

            It’s always a one-way street with libs, championing anything that is outside traditonal moral values.

          • JeffH

            Kate 8, isn’t that the truth. Karolyn is a piece of work. What else can you say.

      • Push comes to shove

        kAROLYN,

        Time for me to chime in afer reading all the posts so far, you are so avid about this that one must assume you are either GAY or you hae a close relative who is. What ever the case, my personal experience with someone who is gay is that he made a personal choice in his life to live that lifestyle. I have know him since we were little children, our parents are good friends to this day.

        This man fought with me over girls (younger years), and dated and was sexually active with his fiance (a woman). He chose to end that relationship, he chose to move to San Francisco (later returning to Texas) and chose to have promiscous sex with many different men, as well as get caught in drugs (i believe because of the angst over his choice).

        His lifestyle was a choice, and i believe for many more they made the same choice because it was taboo, not in spite of it.

        Now agrue with me on the point, as i have first hand knowledge. Oh and by the way even though he would not admit it to anyone else i know he was sexually molested in his early years, and i suspect that may be the case for most of the LGBT, if not all.

        • Karolyn

          I have known many gay and lesbian people in my life, and not one has ever mentioned being sexually molested even though they were close friends with me and we shared our deepest secrets. Why would someone choose a “lifestyle” with so much pain involved? My friends have said that they knew they were different when they were little; however, they all tried to be straight, but it didn’t work because it wasn’t who they were. It’s not easy living a conflicted life. The people I have known have all maintained long-term monogamous relationships. I knew a male and female couple who married and had a child, but after 2 years, she finally admitted that she was gay. That happens quite often. Very often gays can do very well as heteros; however, living a lie is too much for many of them. Personally, I believe that there are more bisexual people than would admit to, especially among women. My gay and lesbian friends have been some of the best people I have ever met; and they are Christians!! As I’ve mentioned before, a dear gay friend is also a Christian conservative with whom I’ve had many “discussions” over politics.

          I accept all people, no matter what their sexual preference, mental abilities, race, religion, etc. They are all members of the human race, and as such are a part of me.

          • Push comes to shove

            I believe being is a choice, just like i choose not give in to the urge to oogle or flirt with many women, but instead chose to love and honor my wife, my son, and my savior. It is in the very nature and soul of man (and woman) to propagate the species, and homosexuality goes deeply against that nature. You cannot tell me ‘it’s a choice’ when our very nature becons to the opposite sex. That my friend is the only natural and ‘born with’ nature that man has.

          • DC/Tex

            The gays that claim to be Christians are living a lie. As Christians we are not under the law but in Romans 3:20 by the law is the knowledge of sin, thus Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is abomination. Romans 1:26-27 for even their woman did change the natural use into that which is against nature, and likewise also men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly. So, Old and New Testaments, unnatural sex is a sin. Jesus died once for ALL to cleanse us of our sins, you must believe and choose not to sin, but in our weakness we all sin in some instances, a Christian does not live in constant sin and beat their chest and tell the world that they are living in sin and want their lifestyle taught in school.

          • eddie47d

            100% of all Christians live in sin and it’s a daily struggle to avoid further sin. Whether a business decision that might hurt customers,a wrong decision in bringing up your child,having an affair or inappropriate flirting,lying about something that never happened. Oh the list could be long. Do you brag about your child when the Bible says not to boast? Christian arrogance can be just as sinful as a Christian denying that he is one.

  • Joyce from Loris

    I have always been an advocate of home schooling. Home schooled children consistently score higher on their test than public school children, and graduate with a much better education. Public schools have gotten so far away from TEACHING reading, science, math, geography, etc. Now they want to teach “sex education”, which should be left to the parents to teach to their children. I would imagine it would be pretty horrible for a little kid to have to set in a class room with both boys and girls, and be forced to listen to all this! But that is the Federal Government for you, which thinks we are all stupid and they must be responsible for everything that happens in our lives. HOME SCHOOL! For more reasons than one.

  • Raggs

    Unitied Gay States of America.

    I wonder what our new flag will be?… Hummmm let me take a guess.
    Will it be two men doing the doggie style with a pink background?…

    • Doc Sarvis

      Just because that is the wallpaper in your kitchen does not mean we need it on a flag.
      This issue needs to be learned as it is a fact in our world.

      • Cawmun Cents

        If there is an issue,then how can fact be established?Your contradictory slip is showing Doc.-CC.

        • Xmarine

          If you ever thought there was a time to stand up and fight, its now.
          No I won’t be lead to believe that the “fact” that homosexuality exists makes it normal.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Xmarine,
            Murderers exhist but that don’t mean it’s normal! Molesters exhist, but that don’t mean it’s normal! Rapists exhist but that don’t mean they’re normal! Progs exhist………….!

          • Kate 8

            Joe H. – Just wait…that’s coming, too.

          • eddie47d

            Whacked out theories are normal to some and abhorrent to others.

          • Dan az

            :)

      • Raggs

        Doc.. take off your high heels for a momment, put away your lip stick and return to the planet… The fact is a faggot is a faggot no matter how you dress it and that doesn’t mean that you have to force it upon me or anyone else.

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          On the Raggs,
          Are you on that monthly cycle?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            coal miner,
            I don’t htink raggs is, but I’d bet good money YOU are!!!

          • eddie47d

            That gives new meaning to say Raggs is on the rag. That’s been his normal mode for the last 2 years.

          • Dan az

            :) Joe its good to have you back!And eddie :)

  • Mutantone

    I am well read in history and other topics of our history and for the life of me I am want to see any history made by Gays that would apply to a lesson for the nation.

  • lray

    TAKE A GOO LOOK AT HISTORY!! See what happened to the Roman Empire.We are well on our way to repeating history. Personally I think we have failed miserbly at teaching our children the baciscs they need to get along and make a living in live. We would be much better off teaching our kids how to bacis and think for themselves. This kind of suff on sexuality belongs in the bedroom and should be kept there. I for one don’t flaunt what I do in the bedroom and don’t wants to see what others do there either. Our children will decide for themselves this in their lives. Teach them the things they really need to know to be seccessful in life and get this country out of the disgusting destructive path it is on.

  • Cawmun Cents

    The way to resolve this condition is to simply offer the class as an elective class for extra credtit.Those who choos this class will have it as part of their curriculum,those who do not,wont.There,I hope that clears up the argument.-CC.

    • JeffH

      …now that is a workable “Cawmun Cents” approach to the issue.

      • Kate 8

        CC and JeffH – The problem with making this an elective is that it would allow us to make personal choices. The commie liberals don’t believe in allowing opting in or out of their programs, because they know that if they did, few would agree to it.

        The only way they can force their ideas on us is by…well, FORCE.

        • JeffH

          Kate8 :) …ain’t that the truth.

      • Dan az

        CC Good one!

    • independant thinker

      agreed cawman

  • C130 Gunship

    Kalifornica is lost. Bankrupt both financially and morally. Businesses and families leaving the state faster than any other state in the union. Land of the libtard politics no matter which party is in charge. What’s the real difference between the Inseminator (Arnold)or Moon Beam Brown? Both lied, both have and are continuing to screw the state dependent populations for every thing they can. Today, education is much less about teaching children ‘how’ to think, but instead concentrates on ‘what’ to think. Public education is not about educating but really about teachers pay, benefits, pensions, and union membership.

    I can’t wait to see Kalifornia financially collapse, then we’ll see how the left coast uptopia works out for all those voters who continue to vote for the government they deserve.

    • Push comes to shove

      Did you mean to start the off as………

      Kali-fornication

    • Kate 8

      c130 – Not all of us in CA are liberal, and we work hard to fight the liberal agenda. As a matter of fact, the guv ran a poll where you could call in and state your position on this issue, and I believe the vast majority were opposed. But, of course, Moombeam knows better what’s good for us neanderthals.

      What’s really amazing is that many democrat voters are opposed to issues like this and gay marriage, but they are too ignorant to put 2 and 2 together and realize that they are voting for those doing it. The liberals still blame conservatives for the problems in this state, and democrats have controlled CA for half a century!

      Then again, the majority of our population is immigrant, and largely illegal, and they’ve fallen for the democrat lie that they are for the common man. They have no real understanding of American politics, except for who assures them of their entitlement checks.

      • Dan az

        If the liberal progressive mind cant see it then how would the illegals!

  • BB

    This Bill is not a sex-education bill, it is just to teach in the Social Science classes the contributions of gays, lesbians, and the disabled. They are not teaching sex practices. Nobody is telling your child to be gay or disabled. If a gay or disabled person contributed something positive to society, then why not let them know it was a contribution by a gay/disabled person? If a Christian made a positive contribution to society (like in Europe when a Christian moved to end slavery) then why not tell people a Christian started that movement?

    • Karolyn

      Right! And I don’t know if people have ever noticed how gays bring back blighted neighborhoods by moving in and fixing up homes and buildings and helping the economies to recover. I’ve seen it happen over and over in several areas. Gays do make positive contributions to the world.

      • Push comes to shove

        Hey, stop all the they do this they do that. People who are productive members of society all do those things as well.

        If it is put in the text books why not just put behind every person name mentioned in the book in Parenthesis (GAY), (Striaght), (Bisexual), etc. , because if this is to be tuaght then i want my children to know that there are not many and that a hetero lifestyle is GODs plan. Also to when children ask why the keep seeing striaght behind someones name we can tell what California(cation) did. THen i hope he asks how come i don’t see any that say gay, and i will tell him because the if any of the people in our history were they were ashamed because they knew it was not GODs way.

        I kinda rambled but you get my point.

        • Kate 8

          Exactly. If someone has made an important contribution, then why isn’t it enough to just give the name? That’s what they do if the person is straight, after all. Besides, do they want to remembered for their contributions or for their sexual persuasion?

          Of course, the answer is obvious.

          • eddie47d

            Sure they do. They say what religion they are and if they are Married. If there is a black inventor that is mentioned,if a women is an astronaut it will say so. If a student is in a club or team and has a disability that is mentioned in reference to how he overcame his disability. Now gays might soon be equal if they are allowed to have in print saying they are married instead of hiding from the Conservatives. When I was in school I thought everything was invented in America which is the farthest thing from the truth. It’s fine to feel good about ones nation but a little more honesty is in order.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Karolyn,
        give me one example of that!!!

        • Karolyn

          Red Bank, NJ

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Karolyn,
          Now, there were no heteroes involved at all in this? ALL involved were gay?? I don’t think so!!

          • Karolyn

            Joe – They were the first to take the chance by buying blighted properties and rehabbing them. They started the ball rolling and began opening small shops which led to Red Bank becoming more of a tourist destination on the way to the Jersey shore. It’s always the artists who cause this type of renaissance, and gays tend to be artists.

    • Rick

      And THAT is where the double-standard lies. Do you really think these same morons and pro-LGBT lifestyle mongers would allow, endorse or approve of a move to teach that some one who made a great discovery or breakthrough to society was also a Christian (and “straight” for that matter) in our schools? Think again. This is nothing more than an attempt to confuse our future generations and to destroy the moral fibers of our country. By doing that they succeed in making people feel ostricized by society. It’s called “divide and conqueer” (and no, the spelling of “conqueer” was intentional). Once they succeed in making the people feel ostricized and the people raise demanding justice the government will swoop down with a solution that will be nothing short of a fascist state. The progressives are doing a great job of selling out our country but those of us who went to a public school when they actually taught the 3 “R’s” (Reading, Writing, Arithmetic) AND History are onto their agenda. Now we need to take a stand and start fighting this “Socialist” movement and, with “real” luck, maybe even actually eradicate this immoral, unnatural lifestyle from America.

  • http://msn Kerri

    How about Me teaching My children morals, values, compasion and tolerance and the schools teach them how to read, write, do math, learn history, govt. and science? That’s what we pay you to do. You can’t even do that so why would I want you to teach My child your morals and values or the lack there of? The govt., local to the top are way out of control. They are not educating, they are indoctranating. Thier morals and values and beleifes are not mine. Keep them to yourself. If that what you want to teach your children fine, but leave my alone.

    • DC/Tex

      Totally Agree!

  • Pkr

    I sense so much hate in this website.. It makes me very sad. God does not call us to hate as Christians. Jesus is our role model and he did not hate. That being said, I do believe 5 or 6 yr. old childen are too young to grasp this information. Middle school would be more appropriate age 11 or 12 when bullying usually begins. I also believe homosexuality is not a choice anymore than hetrosexuality is a choice. It is a gender idenity disorder, not a choice. The sin is not homosexuality..as many gays do not live a gay lifestyle. The sin is sodomy. God hates all sin. This would include all sexual sin, but also hate. We are called to love one another as Christians. Lets start doing that today and change the world.

    • Karolyn

      Why not just love on another as people? As the brothers and sisters that we are?

      • Jeep

        oooohhh…icky…brothers and sisters loving “on” each other…now that’s perverted!

        • Rick

          Not in her eyes and mind. To her, it’s perfectly “natural” and, one could reasonably believe, “desirous” to her.

        • Karolyn

          Didn’t Jesus advocate “love they neighbor as theyself.” And we absolutely are all brothers nd sisters, especially following the biblical view of how humankind came to be. Adam and Eve and then incest between them and their children.

          • Push comes to shove

            Blasphemer, your trying to GOD’s word against us, aren’t you? GOD also state ‘man shall not lay with man, nor woman with woman’, and the homosexuality is an abomination unto him.

            Chew on those words. Not one person here that i have read advocates ridding our society of these people, just don’t flaunt your choice in our faces, and the above article shows they are flaunting it in our face.

            I need a T-shirt that reads “Straight and Proud” (front) Hetro pride (back) to wear on my next trip to California and maybe i’ll stop in old San Fran and flaunt it in thier face. I am not worried, i carry a big stick (bad joke).

          • eddie47d

            Speaking the truth is not blasphemy.What did Karolyn say that wasn’t true?

          • Jay

            Karolyn: Didn’t Jesus advocate “love they neighbor as theyself.” And we absolutely are all brothers nd sisters, especially following the biblical view of how humankind came to be. Adam and Eve and then incest between them and their children.

            Jesus also warned:
            “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe (in me) to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.” (Mark 9:42)

          • Crystal

            Karolyn, pick up a bible, read Genesis, and never make another stupid remark like that again. Get some knowledge.

  • http://personallibertydigest marilyn

    There is such a cry about bullying. Bullying happens. At issue here is who will be bullied by whom. In the past, gays were bullied by society. This is a fact. Now I see people trying to remedy the situation by simply changing the roles. People who advacated being gay were bullied and meligned, now everything is being turned upside down, and people who are anti-gay are beginning to be bullied and meligned. Is the goal to change who we persecute,or do we want to be a truly free and just country where there is freedom of thought and speech? I think that people who fear that the “gay” lifestyle is being legitimized through education are really afraid of the role reversal and the realization that their voice is being silenced. Education is not simply teaching about the contributions of the gay community and the difficulties that they have overcome, it will provide a target for the bullying to continue by making it unthinkable to be anti-gay. So it becomes a-ok to believe and support gay issues but a SIN (so to speak)to believe that those issues are a bad choice or wrong. Bullying, like war, is bound up in the heart of mankind. Humans tend to feel safest in a like-minded group especially if that group demonizes the other groups. Opinions (ie pro gay and anti gay) do not make people evil, just different. Who said, “I do not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the DEATH your right to say it”? Can we be a truly free people with diversity of thought, speaking the truth, as we see it, in love? Our words and thoughts do not make us evil, but our actions.

  • Song

    Eddie, Doc, Karolyn: Are you saying that children only “know” what they are taught in school? Are you saying that a public education is the only way a person can become “well rounded?”

    • Karolyn

      Well, it sure doesn’t seem like a lot of parents are doing the job!

      • Jeep

        Are you saying that you are the arbitor of which parents are good and which are not? Or, are you advocating that some faceless bureaucrat would be in charge of determining that? Since you seem to be such an expert at understanding what a “good” parent is, would you kindly explain your parameters? And, what exactly are you basing your expert child rearing experience on?

        So, if you (or your govt proxy) determine that a parent is not teaching “correct” values that you have chosen, then the govt should re-educate them properly. Is this your plan? I seem to recall this kind of thing in Communist China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Nazi Germany and a whole host of other venues.

        Teach children reading, writing and arithmetic in school, leave the morality for home.

        • CJM

          It seems that way, Jeep…after all, her lesbian friends make really terrific parents. Guess the heterosexuals among us need to have more government intervention so they will become the robots the officials demand. Of course, teachers whine an awful lot about being paid for babysitting–sure don’t know why since they don’t teach.

          • Joyce from Loris

            And don’t forget the most important thing! Her homosexual friends are all great decorators and fix houses up really nice, making the neighborhoods much nicer!

      • Jay

        Karolyn: Well, it sure doesn’t seem like a lot of parents are doing the job!

        Communist goal #41:Emphasize raising children away from the “negative” influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, learning problems and retarding of children to the suppressive influence of parents.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Song,
      I don’t know, there’s a lot of underage girls that are getting well, “rounded” (as in preggers)from that highschool sexeducation class!!!

      • Dan az

        There you go Joe’ you just proved Karolyns point that is if they where gay then that wouldn’t of happened. :)

        • Joyce from Loris

          LOL!!!

          • Dan az

            Good to have you back Joyce :)

    • eddie47d

      I have no idea what you are talking about Song?? There are many ways to be taught. The person who goes into the military has a different perspective than someone who doesn’t. Public education can be great and home schooling can sometimes be better. Sometimes those home schooled don’t know how to interact with the outside world and have problems in life. Kids in a disrupted classroom can be even worse off. So it’s all a mixed bag.

  • jopa

    So many of these people are so hateful when it comes to the gay community.Makes a person wonder haw many are actually sill hiding in the closet with a wide stance like Larry Craig.He was also a gay basher and you see how that worked out for him.Cawman Cents did have a great idea about teaching gun safety in school, but today most districts could not afford it.It’s sad when many school districts don’t even offer drivers education anymore.I have had rides in the vehicles of individuals that didn’t have drivers education in school and it shows.

    • AMJ

      What do you mean the government couldn’t afford to teach gun safety in school? They have so many extra guns, they are giving them away to Mexico.

      • Rick

        Ooooh! ZINGER!! LMAO

        • CJM

          WOW!!!!!!!!!! I can’t quit laughing!!!!!!!!!!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        AJM,
        BADDA-BING!!!!!

  • Earl, QUEENS, NY

    And people wonder why we sometimes say ‘the wacky left coast’!! Of course, Californians were wise and proper to vote against gay marriage; even though their will was struck down by a liberal court. On the other hand, why did Californians elect Jerry Brown?? And that’s just a state level blunder. What about Barbara ‘Madam’ Boxer?? And Los Angeles voters re-elected Henry Waxman. San Fran-wacko voters re-elected Nasty Pelousy by an 80% landslide 8 months ago!! How can Americans expect God’s blessings when they continue to elect and re-elect such morally bankrupt politicians??

    Again we see more reason to favor private schools or home schooling over a failed public education system that’s further deteriorating. GET REAL!! Kids need education, not indoctrination!! Perhaps mainstream citizens should rebel against the corrupt liberals and political correctness. To be exact, quote scriptures from the Bible, and encourage their kids to do likewise – speaking out against what is wrong. Polls indicate a majority of Americans are conservative or center to right. Liberals and morally bankrupt democrap politicians are a minority. Thus we need to rise up, and no longer tolerate this politically correct BS!!!!

    • CJM

      Thank you, and Bless you, Earl of Queens NY………I like your very common sense post.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Earl,
      That’s Nasty PEELOUSY!!!

      • Jay

        Pelosi, Hitler in high heels!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Jay,
          Geeze i gotta teach all of you guys spelling!! It’s PEE-LOUSY!!!!

  • Altaica

    I feel the need to make a few points here.

    First and foremost if you are going to teach history then you should teach all the facts. If someone from the GBTL make an impact, good or bad on our history it is footnote of what the person was like. It is no different then stating someone was black, russian, native american, jewish, christian, muslim, whatever. It is a fact about the person and should not be omitted. If you want to omit such facts then we should stop teaching that someone was of a particular ethnicity and religion as well. How much of an impact do you think Malcolm X’s contribution would matter on history if you omit the facts that he was black and muslim? Whether you agree with what someone is or was doesn’t change that information. It is a fact, provable and immutable. This is not about teaching someone a certain life choice is right or wrong, it is about stating facts as honestly as possible.

    Second, GBTL is actually natural. Just because you do not engage in it does not mean that it is not part of nature. The Bonobo Chimps engage in all forms of sexual relationships, there are hundreds of examples of animals changing their sex in the wild. Wolves engage in homosexual relations, hyena’s as well. There are plenty of examples within nature to show that these things do happen. These are not isolated examples, they happen often enough to be considered a normal part of nature. Open your eyes to what nature has to teach us, after all we are all on this planet together.

    Third, when you teach someone, you make sure it is age appropriate. Teaching elementary students about how to operate a gun is not appropriate to their maturity level. Teaching them that guns can be dangerous is, like the poisons under the cabinet. I am sure the complex details of the greater scale of history and such deep facts as religion and sexual orientation would not be taught until children are old enough to understand those ideas. Like when they are old enough to learn about their bodies.

    Fourth, the existence of God is not a fact, it is a belief. There are more religions than Christianity, some far older than it, like Hindi. Some schools do teach a world religions course, which I think is good to make people aware of what is out there instead of being so close minded. You cannot teach god as an absolute certainly as there is no irrefutable scientific proof and provable facts to its existence. And before you try and claim the bible proves “his” existence, using a book, written by men, not one, but many, that conflicts itself within it’s pages is not irrefutable proof. And to add to that, your own commandment says “Thou shalt have no other god before me” actually could be used to prove that there are obviously other gods. Also, religion should only be taught in school as part of history and sociology classes to demonstrate its effects on history and society. To force anyone to learn your religion and be forced to follow it is a violation of their first amendment right of freedom of religion, not to mention a violation of separation of church and state. Public schools are paid for by government funding, making public schools of the state. Since it is of the state there should not be any one religion taught. Only enough information for people to understand one another and make their own choices on religion by seeking out a member of that religion.

    And I am sure I will get the christian rebuttal so I’ll just answer it now. I am not Christian, I used to be, I got sick of the hypocrisy. I believe in science and the truth of fact. And before you call me an atheist or agnostic and say you are praying for my soul, let me remind you that the idea of hell comes directly from Norse Mythology and the Goddess Hel. You depictions of the devil are of the Greek God Pan. Your Christmas tree is a pagan symbol, the Christmas holiday was chosen to be in December to convert the Romans who practiced Saturnalia around the same time, who caroled in the streets, had feasts and wore a red cap. Easter is the pagan holiday of fertility wherein eggs and rabbits are both symbols of. Your prophet Jesus was not born at anytime in the winter. Jesus of Nazereth was of middle eastern descent, therefore he was neither white nor black.

    The Bible itself contradicts itself innumerable times. Several events are scientifically impossible. A number of “historical facts” have been proven through archeology to not have happened as stated. The earth is far older than your religion states, hec, the Sumerian race existed before your religion says people existed. And as for morals, thrusting a sword into the beating heart of an infant, sending bears to maul 40 some children for making fun of a prophet, and breaking up families are morals I can do without. To be honest I’m not atheist or agnostic, I just don’t wish to worship a hypocritical, cruel, jealous deity. I’ll stick to the beliefs I have found that work, ones that don’t contradict one another and don’t suggest that any sex is inferior and allow me to ask questions and find my own way.

    • Maire

      Interesting………You said, “Fourth, the existence of God is not a fact, it is a belief.” and “You cannot teach God as an absolute certainly (sic) as there is no irrefutable scientific proof and provable facts to its existence.”

      However,

      The THEORY of Evolution is not a fact….yet it is taught as one.

      The Big Bang THEORY is not a fact…..yet it is taught as one.

      Do you believe that these should not be taught in school as well because they have no provable facts?

      Oppostition to these teachings as the only opinions is not only frowned upon, but also ruled against in the courts. One of the problem in our schools is that Christianity does not get the same amount of “education time” as the other religions.

      • Altaica

        The theory of evolution is provable. There is proof in our DNA, the fossil record and in the our own world. The finches of the Galapagos Islands show how evolution is at work. The presence of vestigial limbs proves evolution. Transitional fossils prove evolution. Animals adapting to the changes of the environment proves evolution. There is a very large amount of data that proves the theory of evolution. Science tests and proves it’s theories. When something changes and is proven to no longer be applicable science fixes it.

        The bible (or any other religious text) doesn’t change when it is proven wrong. It remains stagnant. Religion is also pretty open to interpretation. If that were not the case then there would only be one branch of christianity.

        The difference here is that science states what they mean and are honest as to whether something can be observed, tested or extrapolated. So many people misrepresent what the words hypothesis, theory, and law mean. In science it is very clear cut what each means.

        See http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm for the proper definitions of theory, hypothesis, and law. “Theory:
        A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it. Therefore, theories can be disproven. Basically, if evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, then the hypothesis can become accepted as a good explanation of a phenomenon. One definition of a theory is to say it’s an accepted hypothesis.”

        As long as religions are taught about with the understanding and honestly of: this is what is believed in this religion then it is acceptable to teach it so that people can learn the other view points. If when religion was proven wrong by historical fact said religion would amend their teachings to state, we believed this, but now we know this to be true, perhaps it would be more accepted as a serious academic subject. Science does this, if hard, proven evidence that is testable in a repeatable fashion is demonstrated and reviewed by the scientific community disproves a theory with the weight of pure empirical data, then the theory is revised and science changes.

        As for educational time, there is only so much time a curriculum has. Religion is something, that since there is a separation of church and state, is expected to be taught by the parents. Some schools however, prepare their students for entering life in a world rife with a myriad of beliefs and views by going over the mainstream religions they are most likely to encounter. Like any other academic subject schools teach enough for a person to get by. If they want to understand more then they take more courses at their discretion and learn more. By no means do the subjects taught at our schools give any of our students all the tools they need to be a historian, scientist, theologian, mathematician, writer, etc. It is up to the individual to decide after they leave the public educational system whether they wish to pursue deeper into any subject.

        • Push comes to shove

          O-K-A-Y,
          But Where are the missing links. Lets say evolution for animals is correct, thoery of evolution cannot apply to man since we have only been here for relatively short period of time (by the hand of GOD in my understanding and faith). Neanderthal man does not count since he walked the earth with modern man for a period of time. The remains of Lucy are fossilized therefore cannot yield any DNA evidence. In those 2 cases the thoery fall apart.

          • CJM

            Neanderthal man DOES count…and believe it or not, scientists are in the process of proving it. Neanderthal man was human, but an early form of man and he sure did walk upright. Genesis and the Gospels tell us “And God said Let US make man in OUR image”. Adam and Eve were the first to inhabit God’s Paradise, Eden, but not the only humans on earth (given that Cain married and she left with him when God banned him from his parents home, marking him so that OTHERS would not harm him). The Bible covers only the Middle Eastern world; the history is silent on other regions, but we are finding that life known to mankind did exist in those regions.

          • Altaica

            As science is finding fossilized does not mean that DNA can not be acquired. It was once thought that this was the case, but in the past few years a paleontologist was able to acquire fragments of DNA from a Dinosaur. If you can get Dinosaur DNA from fossils you can get DNA from much younger fossils.

            The world and humans are far older than the Bible leads you to believe. However, the culture and history of the people detailed in the Bible may have only been extant for a relatively short amount of time. Taken from that standpoint your culture is like 6000 years old.

            Many other cultures have histories that extend before then and there are many young cultures that may consider their world as younger still. It is merely a cultural perspective.

            As for using your bible for logic, there were other humans that your god did not create and it is mentioned right in Genesis. When Cain was exiled he eventually came upon other humans. These were not your God’s creations, they were just there. I believe the Canaans fall into this category, but I may be remembering incorretly.

            CBJ is correct in this just covering the middle east. Your bible actually supports that it does not cover the world by the mention of other peoples not created by God. Your commandments also acknowledge that there are other Gods. “Thou shalt have no other God before me, for I am a jealous God.”

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Altaica ,
            Excerpts

            The Biggest Lie Ever told(the Bible Myth)

            This excerpt is from the fourth edition of the book “The Biggest Lie Ever Told”. The book has been extensively revised and enhanced. The Fourth Edition contains more than twice the content of the previous volume. Much of the commentary has been diligently refined pursuant to greater clarity. We have also added a great deal of information relevant to religious esotericism and mythology that was not included in the previous volumes.

            Excerpt : From Chapter Six:

            Solar Symbolism, Festivals And Holidays
            The Gospel, the Torah and the Quran as well as various other doctrinal books are not the literal truth. These religious books are based, in great part, on astronomical symbolism, allegory and myth. The myths of these scriptures fall into the same categories as the myths of ancient Rome and Greece. The stories within these books are, for the most part, allegorical representations of the movements of celestial entities within the cosmos and/or symbolical renderings of seasonal and agricultural transitions.

            Much of the bible is based on solar mythology i.e. symbolism that reflects the movements of the sun throughout its annual cycle. Under this symbolism the sun is viewed as god; the constellations are viewed as locations through which the god (sun) travels. Of course in some cases the constellations are personified as prophets or deities, likewise with the planets and stars. These matters are covered in great detail in my series of books titled “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth”.

            So the sun (fire) is a mythological symbol of the divine, and darkness is the mythological symbol of the demonic forces or opponents of light (sun, fire). Witness this quote from my book, The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth, Book Two:
            Ancient Mythology was the rendering of scientific astronomy in a mythological format. Mythology symbolizes the movements of the heavenly bodies within the cosmos. Astronomy deals with charting the cycles of all the entities within the cosmos. The Prophecy that prevails in Mythology and religion is a result of this charting. Of course a Prophecy, when delivered in a personified religious format, seems to be the miraculous foretelling of human events. But, in its Original form, the Prophecy did not pertain to future human activity. The Prophecy pertained to the future movements of celestial entities.

            Christ, The Sun And The Zodiac
            Solar mythology is symbolism reflective of the sun’s movement throughout its annual cycle. This system is very ancient, in fact we don’t have a record of its absolute origin. It has existed in some form on all continents, in all ages. The ancients did not use scientific names to identify the cosmic entities; they used earthly names, they named the stars, planets, sun, moon, and constellations in duplication of the entities within their earthly environment. This is clearly exemplified in Greek and Roman mythology, which we all are familiar with, whereas the interplay between the cosmic lights are likened unto contending gods, such as Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Persephone, Hades, Demeter, Jupiter, Saturn, Diana, Venus, Ceres, Hermes, and many others. These names reflect cosmic stars, planets, and constellations that were personified in Greek and Roman mythology – their stories read like human intrigues but we all know the true references are to the cosmic lights.

            All cultures have their forms of mythology, that is to say allegorical symbolism reflective of astronomy, agriculture, history, culture, and so on. Cosmic mythology existed among the Chinese, Hindus, Egyptians, Babylonians, Aztecs, Japanese, Irish, and many, many others, including the Hebrews. The biblical stories of the Old Testament and the New Testament are not historical, but rather are tales reflective of Hebrew mythology.

            The biblical story of Christ is not historical; it is a tale of Hebrew mythology. Actually the Christ story is a mixture of Hebrew and Greek influences, descended from more ancient mythologies, but how we designate it, rather Hebrew or Greek or even Egyptian is not important because all of the ancient mythologies paralleled each other – they all told the same stories of the interactions of the cosmic lights under various cultural formats. Jesus was the sun, born on December 25th; under the allegorical symbolism incorporated by the early Hebrew or Hebrew-Christian mythologists. A human Jesus never lived, not under the name Jesus, or a name such as Jehoshua Ben Pandera or any other name – Jesus Christ never existed, period! The Christ story within the bible is an allegorical tale, just like the Greek stories of Zeus or Roman stories of Jupiter; anthropomorphic tales reflective of astronomical phenomena.

            A clear example of Hebrew mythology reflective of astronomical phenomena is found in the biblical passages concerning the so-called angel “Lucifer”. We all know that the term Lucifer (Latin: Light-bearing) refers to the planet Venus, according to our dictionaries. Venus is known as the Morning Star and also the Evening Star, as it plays both roles in the course of its orbit. When in its cycle as the Morning Star, it heralds the dawning of the sun; it shines at dawn as the brightest light in the sky, as if to challenge the sun. But when the sun breaches the horizon, it obliterates its (Lucifer’s) light and sends it into oblivion (darkness). This astronomical event is described in Isaiah of the bible – take note as to how the writers have completely personified the planet Venus as the rebellious angel Lucifer in describing its interaction with the sun at dawn:

            Isaiah 14:11 through Isaiah 14:19
            11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. This is pure allegorical poetry, written in a fashion that parallels the mythological writings of the Greeks and the Romans. Of course theologians will try to apply these verses to the unseen demon, Satan, or to a wicked Babylonian king perhaps, but if you diligently examine the phrases you will see clearly that the above is a personified description of cosmic interactions, planetary interactions between the sun and Venus as viewed from earth.

            The biblical story of Jesus’ life, from birth to death, is symbolic of the path of the sun through the Zodiac in the course of one year; his birth life and death are written in the stars. His story is a myth styled after the patterns of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and others. As the story goes, he was born in a stable on December 25th, placed in a manger, while the Shepherds were attending their flocks – this is patently true under the allegorical symbolism of the sun. The birth of the sun takes place in the sector of Capricorn; included within this sector are the constellations Cepheus (The King), Cygnus (The Swan), Delphinus (The Dolphin), Pegasus (The Winged Horse), and Equllus (The Small Horse). Within the Constellation of the king (Cepheus), there are two stars of note, among others that make up this constellation – they are Errai, and Alfirk; Errai means shepherd and Alfirk means flock, this explains the shepherds and the flock that were nearby at the time of Christ’s (sun’s) birth. Also, Christ was said to have been laid in a manger at birth – it so happens that when the sun is in Capricorn, at midnight, the stars that light the night sky at the zenith are of the sign opposite the sun sign[1], which in this case points to Cancer. Within the sector of Cancer, there is an asterism known as the Beehive; Beehive is a recent name, anciently this asterism was called the “Manger”, clearly indicating the manger assigned to the birth of Jesus (the sun-god).

            Actually, according to the solar symbolism, the sun (Christ) dies, and is born in the same sign (Capricorn) – that is the completion of a one-year cycle. I explained the death of the sun (Christ) earlier in the book as occurring on December 22, three days before its rebirth as the new Christ (sun) – now witness this excerpt from my book “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth” which explains one phase of the symbolism of the dying sun (Christ):
            ”Golgotha is the location of the crucifixion and as such represents the Winter solstice . The word Golgotha and Capricorn share the same definition, as a term that refers to Skulls, Death. The Winter Solstice is symbolized by the terms Golgotha, Capricorn, Hades, Pit, Calvary, Hell, Bottomless Pit, Cave, Grave , Graveyard and other terms.

            As explained earlier, the three days that Christ spent in the Grave refer to the three days period of Solstice. The sun, after it reaches its lowest point of declination, on December 22, Hesitates in Place for three days, before re-ascending northward toward the vernal equinox. The priest symbolized this three day period of solstice as being buried in the Grave for three days.

            The Crucifixion of Christ, On The Cross, refers to the Cross in the Constellation of Cygnus(the Swan) which lies in the same sector with Capricorn.

            The Two Thieves that are crucified with the Savior(Sun) refer to the Equinoxes. The one on the Right Hand is the Vernal Equinox. The one on the Left Hand(who bad mouthed the savior) is the Autumnal Equinox . The Equinoxes are referred to as thieves, because they are thieves of time. They still Time from each other. When the Sun intersects either equinox, for that day of crossing, Time(Daytime and Nighttime) on the planet is brought into equilibrium, at twelve hours. We have twelve hours of light and twelve hours of darkness, on the day of the Equinox. In the case of the Vernal Equinox(which represents light), He, on the second day after the sun’s crossing, Steals Time from the Autumnal Equinox(which represents darkness) and from this point, the world continues to have more light(daytime) than darkness, until the Sun crosses the Autumnal Equinox. When the Sun crosses the Autumnal Equinox, this thief(autumnal equinox) repeats the crime(theft of time) in the favor of increased Darkness.”

            At the next cardinal point, the vernal equinox, Christ, the sun, is tempted or tried by Satan for forty days; See excerpt from my book “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth” that explains this symbolism:

            “The Magnificent Forty:

            The Number forty is one of the most significant symbolisms used within the scriptures. In consequence of this fact, I have inserted several quotations from the bible , that give reference to the number forty(40). The number forty represents pure symbolism and allegorically expresses the interval of time between the sun reaching certain celestial coordinates(the equinoxes), and its(sun’s) tangible effect upon the climate of our planet, after reaching those coordinates. The interval is forty days , even though the biblical editors may use weeks, or years , or hours, in the text, according to the subject matter of the tale , so that the unit(description) used will fit the context of the specific fable.

            The interval is always referred to as a Struggle of some sort, some type of deprivation, or trial, or test. This is because of the extreme difficulty our solar sun experiences in vanquishing the winter cold from our atmosphere. After six months under the equator , the sun is now in position , when it reaches the vernal equinox on March 21 , to restore warmth and moisture to the northern regions. But the victory of warmth over cold is not immediate, but rather a tug of war , back and forth, between the forces of light (warmth, salvation, reward and blessings) and darkness (cold, tempting devil , Satan ).

            But after 40 days (May Day), you can rest assured that the frost won’t ruin your crops. The sun is now victorious, and free of the tempting(tugging) devil of winter.

            Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

            Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water , he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

            Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

            Mark 1:12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

            Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days , tempted of Satan ; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

            This Forty refers to the Lag Time between the Sun reaching the equinoxes, to the actual Terrestrial effect on the earth , that takes about 40 days to materialize. The Spring and the Fall begin officially when the Sun crosses the Equinoxes, but the effect on the earth’s weather is delayed for a period of forty days.

            This Period between the Sun ’s astronomical position and the earth’s warming or cooling is a wilderness journey. The Goal or the Mount has been reached , but the effect on the earth’s climate takes more time(40 days , which represents the amount of time needed for complete seasonal transition ).

            The Ancients symbolized this period in the Wilderness , by two semi-equinoctial holidays, namely May Day that comes forty days after the Spring equinox , and Halloween which comes forty days after the Fall equinox.

            You will note that after the sun(under the type of Israel) crossed the Red Sea , it(sun-Israel) had to endure forty years struggle in the wilderness. And likewise , after Jesus (sun) crossed the sea(river of John The Baptist) he was immediately taken to task by the Devil for forty days of trials , temptation and fasting. The symbolism of the magnificent 40 is very explicit and occurs throughout the bible”

            At the next cardinal point, the Summer Solstice, Christ (sun) enters Jerusalem, riding on two asses; see quotation from my book “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth” that explains this symbolism:
            ”Christ enters Jerusalem riding upon a Colt and an Ass

            Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass , and a colt the foal of an ass.

            Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

            Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt , and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

            Mat 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strowed them in the way.

            The astronomical analogy

            Jerusalem is the Summer Solstice , the Apex , the highest point of the Sun ’s(Father’s) travels. Ever since the Sun(Father) crossed the vernal equinox , His Focus has been on Jerusalem.

            He(Sun ) enters Jerusalem riding upon two asses . This refers to two prominent stars which the Sun rides(crosses) within the constellation of Cancer (the sign of the summer solstice ). The stars are Asellus Borealis (Northern Ass) and Asellus Australis (Southern Ass ).”

            At the next cardinal point, Christ is betrayed, and captured by the underworld forces of opposition; he is tried and judged in court (Libra), and found guilty and sentenced to death, to the grave. The actual grave is at Capricorn as I have already indicated, but the capture that opens the pathway to the grave is at the autumnal equinox, at Libra, after September 22 when the sun crosses the Fall equinox. Libra (the 7th sign) was the sign of Christ’s trial before Pontius Pilate as indicated by its sigil, the scales of justice (or injustice we might say). The gateways between the lower world and the upper world are at the equinoxes; the vernal equinox is the gateway to the higher hemisphere, equated with redemption, and the autumnal equinox is the gateway to the lower hemisphere, equated with suffering and death, according to the ancient symbolism. So when the sun falls below the equinox in the last part of the year and the earth approaches winter, the ancients saw that event as the imprisonment of the sun, or the wounding of the sun, whereas its light was impeded and made ineffective; the imprisonment of Christ and the eventual crucifixion of him is symbolic of the span from the autumnal equinox to the sun’s death at the winter solstice, in the annual phase of the solar symbolism. Of course, biblically the resurrection of Christ takes place proximate to the vernal equinox; this is because of the cultural input from the Hebrew-Christians who wrote the biblical Christ myth. They fashioned the Christ after the sacrificial lamb of the Passover festival. It was the custom of the Jews to sacrifice lambs or goats proximate to the equinoxes, both vernal and autumnal; they also linked this sacrifice (killing of the animal) to the expiation of their sins – the animal was termed a scapegoat, a scapegoat that carried the load of punishment for the accumulated sins of the Jewish population. This is where the myth comes from that Jesus died for the sins of the world; it’s simply a copy of the old pagan, superstitious customs of the nomadic Hebrews. The bible clearly calls Jesus the Passover, that he was a substitute for the lamb of the Jews brought forth to human form under the Christian doctrine, which (doctrine) was composed by the early Christians who were actually Jews, members of a Jewish sect that later, overtime became distinct as Christians

          • Karolyn

            coal – Thanks. I have to get that book.

          • Altaica

            Coal,

            This book looks very interesting. I am going to have to check it out after I am done reading my other books.

            A quote comes to mind from one of my favorite bands, Fall Out Boy. In one of his songs he sings “The best part of believe is the lie.”

            Now I am of the opinion that there are truths and such that can be found if you can pick apart the myths and legends and old stories. There are relevant lessons of the time and clues to their history. I understand the reason people tell big stories is because it makes them entertaining and they stick with you. This way the hidden lessons and ideas are preserved. We are social creatures after all, and our histories were passed down orally at first. You didn’t have anything but your memory to hold the information, Of course you are more likely to remember a story that grabbed your attention then something mundane and boring. Those stories that captured the attention of more people flourished and grew. And of course if you have ever played the game telephone, you know that when you tell something you heard and pass it on it grows and changes from person to person. The original message gets buried deeper and deeper with each retelling, which makes studying and searching for the original meaning, well exciting! I love puzzles and the world’s religions are full of hidden kernels just waiting to be found if you can figure out the puzzle behind them.

            Using stories to pass on astrological knowledge is a very good way to preserve that information. We do this with all kinds of things. For example: Hey you give me back my gold! Ah Gee all I got was silver. in this example we use similar sounding words to represent letters. AU is the chemical symbol for gold and AG is the chemical symbol for silver. I learned this almost 20 years ago. I can’t remember most of the periodic table of elements, but I sure remember those two. Another of my favorites is: Little Johnny is no more for what he thought was H2O was H2SO4. It’s a good way to remember that Sulfuric acid resembles water in many visible ways. I had some great high school science teachers.

        • Push comes to shove

          Now haven read your complete blog let me say this, MOST science today is full of Sh**. Global warming (junk science), Evolution (unproven and can never be without a missing link), so you see science does not correct itself very well either and is partial to the politics of the days, past, present, and future. Only religiion (defined as a belief in a higher power, GOD if you will) stands on principle and does not change, it means what it says and say what it means.

          How about your scientists, they disagree constantly, there is no one truth, Hawkings, Einstien, etc, all had differing beliefs and all thought they were correct, but no one will ever truely know the truth.

          AND that is the grand design my friend, that is why we faith and belief, and you have thoery.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Altaica,

            Evolution is a fact:

            Science News:
            Genetic Switch for Limbs and Digits Found in Primitive Fish: Before Animals First Walked On Land, Fish Carried Gene Program for Limbs
            ScienceDaily (July 11, 2011) — Genetic instructions for developing limbs and digits were present in primitive fish millions of years before their descendants first crawled on to land, researchers have discovered.

            Chromosomal crossover
            Timeline of human evolution
            Trait (biology)
            Genetically modified organism
            Genetic switches control the timing and location of gene activity. When a particular switch taken from fish DNA is placed into mouse embryos, the segment can activate genes in the developing limb region of embryos, University of Chicago researchers report in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The successful swap suggests that the recipe for limb development is conserved in species separated by 400 million years of evolution.

            “The genetic switches that drive the expression of genes in the digits of mice are not only present in fish, but the fish sequence can actually activate the expression in mice,” said Igor Schneider, PhD, postdoctoral researcher in the Department of Organismal Biology and Anatomy at the University of Chicago and lead author on the paper. “This tells us how the antecedents of the limb go back in time at every level, from fossils to genes.”

            The genetic hunt was inspired by a famous fossil find — the 2004 discovery of the transitional fossil Tiktaalik in the Canadian Arctic by a team led by Neil Shubin of the University of Chicago. A transitional species between fish and the four-legged tetrapods, Tiktaalik possessed fins containing a skeletal structure similar to the limbs of later land-dwelling animals.

            Those similarities — particularly the wrist and hand-like compartments present in the fins of Tiktaalik and its peers — inspired a laboratory experiment to look at the homology, or shared physical and genetic traits, of fish and limbed animals.

            “This is really a case where knowing something about the fossils and the morphology led us to think about genetic experiments,” said Shubin, PhD, the Robert R. Bensley Professor of Organismal Biology and Anatomy and senior author of the study. “Tiktaalik and its cousins showed us that this limb compartment is not an utter novelty in tetrapods, as was thought for a long time. So an antecedent of that program must exist.”

            The research team compared a genetic switch region called CsB, known to regulate limb development in humans, with similar regions in mice, chickens, frogs, and two fish species: the zebrafish and the skate. Because the last common ancestor of all these species pre-dates Tiktaalik-like “fishapods,” the comparison offered a glimpse at biology before animals made their first steps on land.

            Schneider and colleagues compared the CsB regions from all five species and found that certain sequences were shared between the fish species and the tetrapods. The conservation allowed the researchers to try swapping switch sequences between species to see if they could still drive gene expression in the fin or limb. Remarkably, mouse CsB could turn on gene expression at the outer edge of the developing fin region of zebrafish, and both skate and zebrafish CsB were capable of activating gene expression in the wrist and proximal digits of the mouse limb.

            “These sequences function in these organisms despite 400 million years of separation,” Schneider said. “The homologies that are perhaps not evident by morphology — just comparing a hand and a fin — can be traced back to the genome, where you find that the regulatory regions that control the making of those structures are actually present and shared between these organisms.”

            The results contradict a previous finding that a developmental switch from pufferfish DNA was not capable of gene expression in the limbs of mice, suggesting that tetrapods evolved a novel developmental system. But the new experiments suggest that the genetic switch controlling limb development was in fact present deep in Earth’s evolutionary tree.

            “There previously was the idea that these switches had to be generated from scratch de novo, but no, they already existed, they were already there,” said Marcelo Nobrega, MD, PhD, assistant professor of human genetics at the University of Chicago Medical Center and another author of the study. “Maybe the key was expressing a gene earlier or later or in a specific territory, but it was just a modification of a program that was already encoded in the genomes of fish almost half a billion years ago and remains there to this day.”

            “These new results are actually in line with both the fossil data and the expression data,” Schneider said. “So now we can tell a story where the fossils and gene expression make sense in light of the genetic regulation.”

            Future experiments will focus more closely on how the gene regulation system functions, examining the differences between the segments in fish and tetrapods that control development of either a fin or a limb. Subtle changes in the timing or location of gene expression may produce the dramatic differences in anatomy that first allowed animal life on Earth to explore land.

            “There is a whole universe of questions that are opened up by this discovery,” Shubin said.

            The paper, “Appendage expression driven by the Hoxd global control region is an ancient gnathostome feature,” will be published online the week of July 11 by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. In addition to Shubin, Schneider, and Nobrega, authors include Ivy Aneas and Andrew R. Gehrke of the University of Chicago, and Randall D. Dahn of Mount Desert Island Biological Lab.

            Funding for the research was provided by the American Heart Association and the University of Chicago Biological Sciences Division.

          • Altaica

            CoalMiner,

            I have no doubt that Evolution is a fact and will one day be escalated to the status of a scientific law. The evidence is constantly pouring in for its support despite its detractors that deny the data that is present.

            Good article. I hadn’t seen that one yet. I was doing my best to explain genetic data in a layman’s terms as it is clear that many do not understand scientific terminology. Thank you for providing this article, I found it very informative.

          • Altaica

            Scientists don’t kill each other over a difference of opinion. Science is not full of excrement as you say, it has healthy debate and questions as we seek answers. I do not deny, that like all groups, religion included, that there are corrupt individuals that do things for political and social gain. That’s not the community as a whole and where to find more valid information than just the hyped up politically utilized agendas is in scientific journals.

            Look at the real science, not the televised science. The media mostly only shows the negative. Rarely do you see all the good works going on; and this is true of pretty much any group. If you think science is so full of excrement, I think you should think twice about going to a doctor because they use science to treat you. Science is used to make all those processed foods most people like to eat (personally I think food science is quite flawed, some of these chemicals are not meant to be in our bodies). Science gives us pharmaceuticals, if you take any kind of non-holistic medicine you’re using science. Holistics even employ science, just a more natural (Or use it in the way nature intended form) approach instead of synthesizing it. Most of the food we eat has probably been Genetically Modified (I think they should be required to label it if it is not in the form nature gave it to us in.). Science gave us the way to make tires and other rubber products. Science built our cars, brought us electricity and developed how to process oil into fuel and other products. Most people rely on science every day without even realizing it. Science pumps waters into our homes and takes excrement from them. Computers, Tvs, video games, dvds, cds, mp3 players, all science. If modern science is full of excrement as you say I suppose you’re living completely without any of the scientific advancements. No running water, no electricity, no motor vehicle, no processed food or foods from big companies…actually you’d have to be growing your own food, agriculture is a science. Oh, but you are using modern science when you put something on a forum.

        • Maire

          Seriously…..do you understand the English language?

          It is called the T H E O R Y of Evolution. It is not called the LAW of Evolution. A LAW has been proven, a THEORY has not.

          the

          • Altaica

            I do understand the English language quite well thank you. In fact I was an honor student throughout my education in English courses. I have even provided to you the definition of theory in a scientific context as words do posses different meanings within different contexts. A theory in scientific context means that there is a significant amount of testable data to support the theory. If there was not much data to support it then it would be referred to as a hypothesis.

        • CJM

          Altaica: “The difference here is that science states what they mean and are honest as to whether something can be observed, tested or extrapolated. So many people misrepresent what the words hypothesis, theory, and law mean. In science it is very clear cut what each means.” Nice statement, but not exactly the truth. Try the mess we now have over global warming, which is perpetrated upon one of the biggest dupes ever dumped on mankind. This has happed many times throughout history, so science is not exactly the be-all-end-all that you propose it to be. Creationist do realize that there is some evolution in the course of history, but not on the scale that scientist prefer one to believe. According to science, everything is evolved from an amoeba or some other microscopic entity; that I find to be an untruth. Science has NEVER determined how the breath of life came about, let alone how the universe came into existence. Only one answer never changes–even from the mythologies (which, by the way are stories regarding the origins of man) from ancient times speaks of a Creator. And science has in now way ever debunked this. It isn’t theroy, it isn’t a hypothesis, and it isn’t a ‘law.’ It just is..so accecpt it. Too, The Creator gave man a brain and in that brain stored the capacity to develop into higher levels of human consciousness. The talents we have are God given, period. Neither is the Bible exactly stagnant; the fact that issues in Biblical times remain issues today is an indication that man has not learned what it means to live together with unconditional love. The so-called new world order is dangerous to all mankind because it is more about enslavement to a powerful government and not to the Ultimate Creator. The Words of God survive and to that end, these words serve a true purpose…lesbians, transgenders, homosexuals,heterosexuals, and all others need to accept this purpose and live by it.

          • Rick

            CJM, why do you think the radical leftists and the LGBT community are so desperate to discount religious views and beliefs. Because as long as people have faith in a higher power their agenda is doomed. Whether the LGBT community is doing it as a result of their own convictions and to further their own agenda or the “useful idiots” serving the radical left while blindly following their masters without questioning their motives, either way religion is the one force that stands in their way and is a true, viable threat to their agendas.

          • eddie47d

            Buddhists,Muslims,Jews, Christians all have higher Gods. Having a higher God doesn’t necessarily give someone more power over another. That is the way most religions are portrayed though. (I have religion so I can control you)

          • Jay

            Rick:Because as long as people have faith in a higher power their agenda is doomed.

            Hence, the commitment to eradicate Christianity, and only Christianity, from public life, and ultimately from the consciousness of the American people! Communism is like an evil but pretend step-father, who hates the adopted children, for they bear the image of the original.

          • Altaica

            CBJ:
            I respect that you are very strong in your faith, however, not everyone in this country follows your God and to force your religious views on a community of many religions is wrong. Now, I agree that being enslaved to a higher power is wrong. I do not want a government telling me how to think and live my life. I want to be able to exercise my free will and make my own choices. So long as I do not harm another person’s ability to do the same I am fully within my rights as a Human Being. Now, while I hold a lot of respect for my former religion I also cannot ignore the fact that Christians are not without fault. Many try to convert and force their views on another. Christians are not the only ones that do this, I think as humans we are inclined to do this just cause we are social creatures. I can understand, you believe you have found something great, you’re excited and you want to tell the world how great this thing is. Not everyone will however agree with you. It’s the old add-age of one man’s trash is another man’s treasure And by no means am I meaning to call your beliefs trash, because they are your beliefs and only you can assess the value of your beliefs. How many times have you learned information and you truly in your heart thought it was awesome, but when you tried to share it with others they were apathetic? By no means am I saying I am without fault either. I don’t think anyone who has held a healthy debate or discussion has been able to completely stay objective. Our curiosity, or excitement, frustration, in short our emotions drive us to say and do some crazy things sometimes.

            Now, back to the subject of being enslaved to a power, that is exactly what I feel the catholic church, in general, has tried to do for centuries. You cannot ignore the historical facts of countless crusades killing anyone that did not believe as they have. They forced their doctrines down people’s throats, and they didn’t just do it to non-Christians. They did it to branches of Christianity. I am not even sure if there is any major religion that is not guilty of this mentality somewhere in its past, I just have more understanding and education in Christianity so I used it as an example. Essentially the point of this is: by forcing someone to follow your religion you remove their natural right of free will to choose what they want for themselves. You enslave them to your ideals and in a sense enslave them to your God. What is right for you is not right for me. I don’t need to go in a building to worship nature. I don’t need to pay a tithe of my hard earned money just so that I can communicate with a deity through intermediaries. When I pray and give thanks in my belief I do just that. I go somewhere that I feel comfortable, I meditate and I speak from my heart. You feel you need to go to a priest and to a structured environment. I respect that. That is what is right for you. I feel I need to go for a walk in the woods, or meditate and draw or paint. That is what is right for me. I don’t need you to follow my religion to feel fulfilled and enlightened, and all I ask is that other religions not force their laws upon me. I do enjoy learning about other religions, I believe fully that knowledge can breed understanding, and that is honestly something I am striving to achieve. I want to understand people, where their views come from, why they act as they do, etc. I am fascinated with life in all its forms and seek enlightenment through an understanding of the world around me and how everyone interacts with one another.

            I do not believe that the lifestyles of the GBTL is inherently wrong as you do. They are different, yes, but they are a part of nature. When I first encountered members of the community I was curious. I sought information, after all I was pretty insulated having come from small town, USA. When I began this search I didn’t have the internet, it was 20 years ago, and I didn’t even have a computer in my house. I looked for reasons and wanted to understand. As I studied and learned I found that yes in nature other animals do act in this fashion. By looking at the natural world I found that it was clearly a part of the world and was indeed natural. How could something that is natural be so wrong. I examined the belief structure I grew up with and decided that this religion was no longer appropriate to me. I moved on, took the lessons and stories that felt right to me and I learn and grow. This is a part of reasoning, to be able to experiment and find out what works and what doesn’t. I am happy on my path and happy for those that have found paths that work for them. I enjoy the road less traveled and I know sometimes the paths will cross and we will see the same way on some things.

        • Jay

          Altaica:The theory of evolution is provable. There is proof in our DNA

          Could you please elaborate professor? And I ask that it be In your own words, not copied and pasted!

          • Altaica

            Take a look at our DNA sequences and compare them with other creatures. First you have to understand that genes can be turned on and off. A gene is often turned off when it is no longer advantageous to a species.

            When you look at the DNA of a human and compare it with other animals you find that we share a very large base of genes. This commonality indicates that we have a common ancestry. There is a base set of genes that are shared throughout the animal kingdom and even some plants. Nature passes on those genes that are useful and if something was previously useful it usually keeps it, but turns it off in case it may be of further use.

            An example of this is the evolution of the whale. The whale evoluted from a land mammal, ambulcetus, that through the fossil record we can see gradually lost it’s limbs. Now whales do still have the genes to make limbs, and in some species they have vestigal limbs which are only used during reproduction.

            Humans, have within their DNA, the genes to grow tails. We no longer need these appendages for our balance so evolution has turned this gene off. Occasionally it gets turned back on and we have humans born with tails.

            In addition when you compare genomes of animals to place them into “family” groups our DNA indicates that we are of the primate group. We share over 90% of our DNA with other primates, in particular the great apes: Gorillas and Chimpanzees.

            The difference between us in the other small percentage is the difference of various genes being on and off.

            This is in my own words, as has most of what I have stated. If I quote something I give due credit and give you the link. You seem to infer that I cannot communicate for myself and must spout from some other source. There is more information out there on the subject, feel free to look it up yourself. I apologize to you for not being able to communicate in a way for you to better understand.

            As for scientists not agreeing, in order for a principle to become generally accepted and taught within the scientific community it actually does have to go through a board of peers, a very large board that requires the majority to agree that it is a valuable point. Scientists accept that there may be conflicting views out there. Many religions have trouble accepting this concept.

            I have never stated that you cannot believe in your god, nor have I stated one way or another the existence of the supernatural; only that there is no scientific evidence.

          • Jay

            Professor, since information is a by-product of intelligence, then what is the origin of biological information? Thank you!

          • Jay

            I thank you in advance for your response, however I will not be able to respond to it until thursday night! Sholom!

          • Altaica

            The origin of life, as in the genesis of the first single celled organisms?

            That is a question of the ages. There is a lot of speculation on this part and science as of yet has not been able to find and provide facts from this time period. There are a myriad of ideas as to the base origin from extra-terrestrial sources (not just aliens fall in this category, bacteria transported from elsewhere on meteors is another hypothesis.) to creator deities. At this point as there is currently no evidence and concrete proof each individual needs to look at the world and their heart and decide for themselves what answer they believe. As there is no concrete proof one way or another feel that each theory, whether scientific or religious is equally valid, which is why I feel each individual needs to decide what is right in their heart based on their own reasoning.

            If it can’t be directly observed and tested then I can not consider it a fact. This is why I am not an atheist, because where the evidence stops I must make my own choice, and choose what i believe. A belief in something does not make something a fact, however, because facts require physical, tangible, observable information. I have not found any religion to have such things to the origin of the first life on the planet nor has science shown where those first organisms came from as of yet.

            As humans we want to quantify and find answers to everything. That is where our faiths come into play. A pattern that is broken is frustrating to us, so we fill in the gaps with what we think may be the answer and go with that.

            You have chosen God to fill in these gaps, I have chosen The Great Spirit (Also referred to as the Great Creator.) And also the idea of the Universe and The Force (this is a Shinto principle, George Lucas borrowed it from that religion, which is very old.) There are similarities between most religions, I have found in my research, and I consider each one a path. Each person must choose which path to walk for themselves. As there is no testable data, no repeatable experiences, only the self and their experiences each path is equally valid.

            So, you see, I feel there is a place for religion and faith, I feel it is important, but I don’t feel it should be forced onto others. We as people are different. We each have our own personalities and ideas so we need to be free to choose what is right for us. Only the individual knows what feels right to them. I respect that you believe in your God and you feel he is right for you, but God is not right for me. By reading the stories about your creator I have felt pushed away from that belief structure. In my youth I felt that was the right path, but as I walked through life other paths presented themselves; I chose to walk a different one, one that was far older and held the principles that made sense to me.

            Freedom of religion is something very valuable to me. The constitution and bill of rights is also very dear to me. I enjoy being able to have open discussions without fear that the government will swoop down on us and shut us down, and you better believe I will fight for my rights. I also believe that our laws should be easy to find and easy to understand. If ignorance of the law is no excuse then why do they make it so hard to find all the laws and understand them?

          • Jay

            Altaica:The origin of life, as in the genesis of the first single celled organisms?

            Jay: Not the origin of life, that’s a separate issue. The origin of information, which is necessary prior to organic life. Even with ready-made and available material, without specific and complex information, (dna), organic life would not be possible. Information is a by-product of intelligence. There is no other source!

            Altica: That is a question of the ages. There is a lot of speculation on this part and science as of yet has not been able to find and provide facts from this time period.

            Jay: Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps science is a inadequate tool by which to determine origin of life? Since creation, or evolution, are not repeatable, science is at a loss.

            Altaica:There are a myriad of ideas as to the base origin from extra-terrestrial sources (not just aliens fall in this category, bacteria transported from elsewhere on meteors is another hypothesis.) to creator deities.

            Jay: Regardless of the myriad of theories regarding the origin of biological life, all theories, apart from the creation theory, presuppose ready-made and available material for life, and life. These theories, whichever one may espouse, or hold as true, do not rightly deal with origin of life. By origin of life, i mean origin of finite-life, which includes all life, which includes the origin of our universe. For the term finite implies; prior to something, there was nothing. So, if our universe is finite, which science confirms, then what is the cause of our universe? The cause of our finite universe and finite life cannot be finite, the cause, therefore, must be in-finite, meaning, always WAS, no beginning! Otherwise, you are in essence stating: That nothing, made something, this off course is scientifically and logically absurd!

            Altaica:At this point as there is currently no evidence and concrete proof each individual needs to look at the world and their heart and decide for themselves what answer they believe.
            As there is no concrete proof one way or another feel that each theory, whether scientific or religious is equally valid, which is why I feel each individual needs to decide what is right in their heart based on their own reasoning.

            If it can’t be directly observed and tested then I can not consider it a fact. This is why I am not an atheist, because where the evidence stops I must make my own choice, and choose what i believe. A belief in something does not make something a fact, however, because facts require physical, tangible, observable information. I have not found any religion to have such things to the origin of the first life on the planet nor has science shown where those first organisms came from as of yet.
            As humans we want to quantify and find answers to everything. That is where our faiths come into play. A pattern that is broken is frustrating to us, so we fill in the gaps with what we think may be the answer and go with that.

            You have chosen God to fill in these gaps, I have chosen The Great Spirit (Also referred to as the Great Creator.) And also the idea of the Universe and The Force (this is a Shinto principle, George Lucas borrowed it from that religion, which is very old.) There are similarities between most religions, I have found in my research, and I consider each one a path. Each person must choose which path to walk for themselves. As there is no testable data, no repeatable experiences, only the self and their experiences each path is equally valid.

            Jay: All paths are equally valid ? Careful now, you could be opening a pandoras box, as some feel that their chosen path is not only equal to all, but superior to all. What about paths that are destructive and destabilize society, such as; Islam? Satanism? Eugenics? Homosexuality? Pedophilia? Polygamy? ect..

            Altaica: So, you see, I feel there is a place for religion and faith, I feel it is important, but I don’t feel it should be forced onto others.

            Jay: How do you equate belief in a creative being with religion? What is your definition of religion? The standard and anaemic definition seems to be, one who believes in a supernatural being. Could one be considered religious who doesn’t believe in a supernatural being? If not, what then, is a world view? Is it not how one defines reality?

            Altaica: We as people are different. We each have our own personalities and ideas so we need to be free to choose what is right for us. Only the individual knows what feels right to them.

            Jay: Do you mean in terms of reality?

            Altaica: I respect that you believe in your God and you feel he is right for you, but God is not right for me. By reading the stories about your creator I have felt pushed away from that belief structure.

            Jay: Just so you are not confused, or misunderstand me, I am not trying to convert you, nor am I proselytizing. However, I do strongly believe that the LGBT are doing exactly that, and going to great lengths, which include, a state enforced, and state funded imposition of their lifestyle through the education curriculum. Is this not in essence, proselytizing? Pushing one’s belief, or lifestyle/religion on someone?

            Altaica: In my youth I felt that was the right path, but as I walked through life other paths presented themselves; I chose to walk a different one, one that was far older and held the principles that made sense to me.

            Jay: Care to share the path you chose?

            Altaica:Freedom of religion is something very valuable to me.

            Jay: I too value freedom from religion. Off course, you and I do not hold the same definition of what is, religion? I am of the opinion, that every single human being on the planet, is religious, but not all believe in a supernatural being.

            Altaica:The constitution and bill of rights is also very dear to me. I enjoy being able to have open discussions without fear that the government will swoop down on us and shut us down, and you better believe I will fight for my rights. I also believe that our laws should be easy to find and easy to understand. If ignorance of the law is no excuse then why do they make it so hard to find all the laws and understand them?

            Jay: If this is indeed true, then why is the government enforcing, through law, that the homosexual lifestyle be part of the education’s curriculum? Have you not in essence, contradicted yourself?

          • Altaica

            Jay says:
            July 21, 2011 at 8:32 pm
            Jay: Not the origin of life, that’s a separate issue. The origin of information, which is necessary prior to organic life. Even with ready-made and available material, without specific and complex information, (dna), organic life would not be possible. Information is a by-product of intelligence. There is no other source!
            Altaica: The Earth came first; there is no doubt about that in anyone’s mind. On the Earth there were a myriad of elements. These elements make up everything in our world. In time these elements interacted and combined with one another. When a combination was found stable the elements remained in this new complex system. Over time they formed the basis of our first life forms. Scientists have actually begun creating life through the base elements. I recently read an article on this, I don’t recall which publication it was in, most likely popular science or Nat geo as those two are the most readily available to me, but I do also read articles from a myriad of sources.
            Jay: Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps science is a inadequate tool by which to determine origin of life? Since creation, or evolution, are not repeatable, science is at a loss.
            Altaica: No, I do not think science is an inadequate tool. Evolution through natural selection is readily observable in our fossil record and even in the living world. The finches of the Galapagos is a classic and easily demonstrate able example. In addition to this classic example there are a myriad of examples just by looking at the health industry. Pharmaceutical companies develop a medicine to combat a certain microbe, we take said medicine, in time the microbe becomes resistant to said medicine and we have to start all over again. While it is not good for us that the microbe is developing this resistance, to the species it is advantageous because the goal of all species is survival. Microbiology may well have provided us with the largest pool of readily observable adaptations. Given all the evidence, I cannot ignore science as a valid tool.
            The new studies on creation that I read really did surprise me. While evolution after that first initial life form was full of visible evidence, no-where in any source, religious, scientific or otherwise had performed an experiment that demonstrated the creation of a living organism from the basis of only the periodic table of elements. This is a very new science and very new studies, and I must say I was quite surprised when I read the article about this. I intend to keep my ears open for any more of these experiments on this very perplexing and hotly debated subject.

            Jay: Regardless of the myriad of theories regarding the origin of biological life, all theories, apart from the creation theory, presuppose ready-made and available material for life, and life. These theories, whichever one may espouse, or hold as true, do not rightly deal with origin of life. By origin of life, i mean origin of finite-life, which includes all life, which includes the origin of our universe. For the term finite implies; prior to something, there was nothing. So, if our universe is finite, which science confirms, then what is the cause of our universe? The cause of our finite universe and finite life cannot be finite, the cause, therefore, must be in-finite, meaning, always WAS, no beginning! Otherwise, you are in essence stating: That nothing, made something, this off course is scientifically and logically absurd!
            Altaica: The creation of our universe is a completely different matter entirely from evolution. New studies suggest the Universe is infinite, while other studies show that it is infinite. This is all the territory of physics and on this topic I cannot really speak to the information either side has on this topic. Chemistry and Biology I get, physics, quite honestly, most of the time confuses the hell out of me. I do know that there is a debate within the scientific community towards whether the Universe as always been here or if it is finite now. That is a debate I will leave to the physicists. Now, the problem most argued about the creation theory is also the same you make on the physicists theory, you presuppose there was an infinite. I have often wondered in my child hood, when I was more philosophical, who created God? I believe currently that neither physics nor religion have irrefutable proof to defend their claims to the creation of all things. What this means is each person needs decide for themselves which theory they want to use. In your case you have chosen God and as that is what you understand and know you defend this stance. A physicist will do the same with their branch of science. Personally Physics confuses the hell out of me, and Biology, Chemistry, and Math don’t really deal with this topic. While I am sure if I understood Physics I would see valid points, they are just as split on this topic as religions are. How do I approach this then? Well, I know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That is a proven law. Since I know this I know that energy is the infinite, therefore to follow this, than energy is the creator of all things. This particular view allows me to follow both my scientific mind and my spiritual heart. Do I think that a Physicist’s view is scientifically and intellectually absurd? No. Do I understand it? Barely, I try to, but I just can’t wrap my mind around it. As for religion, while there are some similarities, there are also so many differences between them. So how can any one religion say they are one hundred percent right? They can’t. There are even more splits and arguments based on religious belief than on scientific belief. So how do I suggest we deal with this? Well, as there are so many choices we are pretty much consumers of a product. Some people like coke, others prefer pepsi. Pretty much, you choose which one you like. Sometimes, as we age, we decide that we like something else better, so we switch to that one. This is a pretty simple analogy, but one I think is explains that religion is a choice. We choose what one we want to follow based on our tastes so to speak.
            Jay: All paths are equally valid ? Careful now, you could be opening a pandoras box, as some feel that their chosen path is not only equal to all, but superior to all. What about paths that are destructive and destabilize society, such as; Islam? Satanism? Eugenics? Homosexuality? Pedophilia? Polygamy? ect..
            Altaica: Ok, first let us be clear that by path here I mean religion. Eugenics, homosexuality, pedophilia and polygamy are not religions. They do not qualify under the blanket of this discussion. Sticking solely to religion, Islam and Satanism (Which is actually considered a Christian branch by theologians because Satan is a figure that is detailed in the Bible and not present in other religions) are the two you bring up. Now speaking from my studies on Muslims and my education, I have not read their Quran yet; generally speaking the religion itself is not intended to be destructive nor to destabilize society. I have found from my studies of the Abrahamic religions that all three think they are superior to everyone else. I have seen atrocities committed throughout history and even in our modern times by all three branches. I don’t believe that any of the Abrahamic religions are inherently destructive, however some people are fanatics and believe in forcing their views on others. The religion itself is not bad, it’s the act of forcing it upon another human being that is. Did you know that we have had Muslims in the United States as long as we have had Christians? Many of the Africans forced into slavery were Muslim. The three branches of Abrahamic traditions have long since fought with one another over who is right and who is wrong. We have countless crusades instigated by the Christians, we have Jyhads by the Muslims, and the Jewish community has their Zionists who believe that if one person in a community does something they don’t like that they should bomb not only them but their neighbors and friends. (And this is actually happening right now in the fights over the gaza strip, as I have been informed by an airforce official.) Does this make all jews bad? No, it makes those that are forcing their belief structure on another bad. Most Muslims don’t want to be in a war, neither do most Jews and most Christians. It’s the extremists that make it look bad. Now when I say that are paths are equally valid this is with the understanding that you may believe what you want so long as you do no harm to another human in the process. This means if you want to follow Satan, Allah, Yahweh, God, The Great Spirit, the Universe, Kali-Ma, or the teachings of the Buddha that you have a right to do so if you feel right for you, but you should never do any action that will harm another human as they have this same right. The moment you harm another human you are now outside religion and firmly within the violation of a law. As natural law is that we all have a right to life, any action resulting in the loss of life or hindrance to this natural law, that is something that humans as a whole instinctually know; then you are to be held accountable, as an individual, for this violation.
            If I would go by your logic of believing that the acts of some indicates the religion as a whole then I would have to exclude many religions from the right to practice, which most definitely would include all three Abrahamic branches. In actuality by that belief there would be very few religions that would be allowed at all. Buddhists and Taoists, and only Hindi that follow a pacifistic deity would be innocent of not getting into a war where they tried to force their religion’s views on another. Pretty much those are the only religions that I can think of that have not harmed another’s right to life In the name of their religion.
            Now the other thing you mention: “Eugenics? Homosexuality? Pedophilia? Polygamy?” These are ways of life or acts and need to be looked at by whether or not they harm another’s natural right to life in anyway. First, Eugenics. Eugenics is most definitely a violation of this law as it firmly takes away the life other human beings. This is against most people’s laws. Homosexuality: People are born to this. This is a sexual preference that they have, just like you and I are born to be attracted to the opposite sex. In general this is something that affects the individual. Whether they prefer their sex or the opposite sex this does no harm to another person’s life. Now, just as hetereosexuals are punished for raping someone the same should also hold true in this case. This is merely a sexual preference and should be treated as such. I find men with auburn hair attractive, I am sure there are physical features you find attractive in women. That’s all this is, nothing more. Next Pedophilia: This is a clear violation of the life of a child. A child is not mature enough to decide what they want in a relationship, and if they haven’t been through puberty shouldn’t even be involved in this. Again this one is a clear cut violation of natural law. Polygamy: That one is not a violation of natural law, only societal laws. This is not a lifestyle I would chose for myself, but if three or more individuals choose by their free will to have relations with one another they are not harming anyone else’s right to life. This is not a violation of natural law as there is no detriment to others. It’s actually common in nature, and there are also species, it’s a jungle bird, but I can’t remember its name right now; that practice polyandry (One female, many males). So, while you and I do not find it right for us, unless the laws of the country say otherwise, it is their choice.
            Altaica: So, you see, I feel there is a place for religion and faith, I feel it is important, but I don’t feel it should be forced onto others.
            Jay: How do you equate belief in a creative being with religion? What is your definition of religion? The standard and anaemic definition seems to be, one who believes in a supernatural being. Could one be considered religious who doesn’t believe in a supernatural being? If not, what then, is a world view? Is it not how one defines reality?
            I generally equate religion with a belief/Faith in the intangible, i.e. supernatural. I classify creator deities in this category along with ghosts, spirits, etc. I also consider a religion to generally consist of or have consisted of a group of people with similar views and a set of established beliefs and worship practices. I consider intangible something that cannot be actively measured, or touched or experienced by the majority. Supernatural experiences can’t be quantified beyond those involved. I also see religion as something/someone that is worshiped, generally with the belief that doing such will provide some form of reward to the individual doing the worshipping. This is usually a deity of some sort, but there are religions based around objects. I think the most complete definition I can put into words is that religion is the belief and worship of something, whether it be an object or a being; that follows a general set of established traditions based around that something.

            Jay: Do you mean in terms of reality?
            Altaica: In terms of answering the questions we have that can not be answered by usual human means, i.e. that which our logic and academics can’t explain.

            Jay: Just so you are not confused, or misunderstand me, I am not trying to convert you, nor am I proselytizing. However, I do strongly believe that the LGBT are doing exactly that, and going to great lengths, which include, a state enforced, and state funded imposition of their lifestyle through the education curriculum. Is this not in essence, proselytizing? Pushing one’s belief, or lifestyle/religion on someone?

            Altaica: I think it is pushing a sexual orientation, but not a religion. I think if we as heterosexuals are going to teach about our sexual orientation I feel we should also teach about the others. We can’t assume that the wiring in everyone’s brains is the same in regards to what we consider a potential mate. I do believe this law is intellectually dishonest; they only want to teach the good, you can’t teach history honestly without teaching both the good and bad. I also believe that unless it was that lifestyle that drove them to perform the historical act it has no place in a history class. After I read the law for myself and saw the wording I feel it is an inappropriate law. To me the place for information about other sexual orientations belong in the sexual education classes and should be taught to those going through puberty to make them aware of the changes in their bodies and so that they have an understanding and are provided with a place to go to ask questions in the event that their parents don’t want to discuss it with them. Sadly so many parents do not take part in their child’s education, either because they are working so much to support their family and don’t have the time, that they just don’t know how or plainly that they are just poor parents and don’t care. Each situation is different, but I do know, that sadly there is not communication between a lot of youth and their parents. Discussing different sexual orientations has no place in a curriculum until the age of puberty, in my opinion.
            Jay: Care to share the path you chose?
            Altaica: Yes, I follow the nature based religion of the Native Americans. I am a Biologist, but I am also an apprentice Shaman. I do believe as you do in a creator deity; The Great Spirit. I actually happen to believe in the supernatural because of my experiences, but I can’t prove them to anyone. I believe in spirits, I believe in ghosts. I believe in reincarnation and past lives. I don’t believe in a fiery hell, but I do believe in an underworld where our spirits may spend some time. I believe we all have a piece of the divine in us. I pretty much don’t believe that anything is inherently good or evil but has the capacity to do either and it is the acts one performs and their impact on others that determine these things. I do also take aspects of other religions that fit the same paradigm. I do believe in the good works of Jesus of Nazareth, to me I see him as a Great shaman, perhaps one of the most celebrated shamans along with The Buddha. He himself said greater works than I you will do yourself. Many of the acts her performed are also skills a shaman can learn. I have also found that there is pretty much a shamanic type in most religions, my teacher, a Christian Shaman, has taught me much about other religions. She is actually a theologian and very well versed.
            Jay: I too value freedom from religion. Off course, you and I do not hold the same definition of what is religion? I am of the opinion, that every single human being on the planet, is religious, but not all believe in a supernatural being.
            Altaica: That is a valid point. I think you may have something there. I think humans in general want to believe in something, so they naturally look for something that they can latch onto. I have actually watched a show on how belief is wired into our brains as a survival mechanism. I guess it is something of our nature that most of us need to feel complete.
            Jay: If this is indeed true, then why is the government enforcing, through law, that the homosexual lifestyle be part of the education’s curriculum? Have you not in essence, contradicted yourself?
            Altaica: I don’t feel I have, but it may appear so. I think there is a place for discussion of it, but I think they are misguided as to where. It belongs in Sexual Education classes, not history. Perhaps in Human Anatomy or Biology classes, but I think they are pushing things too far. It certainly doesn’t belong in any curriculum involve pre-pubescent youth. This bill as it is written is asinine. I don’t agree with it. If their sexual orientation drove them to commit the historical act, yes it should be mentioned. If it had nothing to do with it, it is as irrelevant and belongs in non-public school texts as trivia. I don’t want to pick up a history book and read blah was homosexual and invented this and blah was heterosexual and invented this. It’s unnecessary filler.

            Now, I can see if an advancement was made in prosthetics because a transgender invented functioning prosthetic parts because she felt she was a male and wanted to be whole, that makes sense, that explains the motivation behind the invention. I don’t think many historical facts are driven by the sexual orientation of the individual no matter which way they go. If they didn’t drive the act they have no importance in the curriculum.

    • Push comes to shove

      My quips to your writings:
      Paragraph 1: Make sure everyone is called out hetro, gay, bi, etc.

      Para 2: All animals despite what they do otherwise (thats why we call them animals and we are humans(yes i know SCIENTISTS classify us in the animal knigdom)) propogate the species.

      Para 3: Who determines age appropriate, only i should do that for my child and you yours, not the schools or the government.

      Para 4:No proof of GOD? Do you believe in the big bang thoery? something out of nothing? There is your proof. Evolution? the spark of life had to start somewhere.

      and Finally, Christianity/Judaism makes man and woman equal, they are the only religions that do so. By the way you are mixing a lot of religions together to blast one, christianity as all atheists do. So i say you are an atheist. I bet your a Bill Maher fan to.

      • Altaica

        Push comes to shove,

        If you had actually read what I wrote I already stated that I am neither an atheist or an agnostic. Christianity and Judeism are not the only religions that hold the sexes equally. And if they truly did then why do we see so much inequality between the sexes in governments ruled by these religions? Why was it ok for a husband to beat his wife? Why is it ok for a man to kill his wife if he even suspects she is an adulterer? Why is a woman punished by her hand being chopped off if she tries to break up a fight between her husband and another man and grabs their crotch? There are so many questions I have.

        There is a lot of inequality in your religion historically. If you are so equal why do you omit Lilith from many of your teachings? Why isn’t Mary Magdelin given her proper place as a disciple of Jesus? Why do so many branches of your religion deny women the priesthood? Why has there been not one single female pope?

        The only answer I can see is that Christianity favors a patriarchy. Males are in control. It is far from equal. This is how your religion has acted for centuries. This is how many branches still act. Preach love and practice hate, that is what I have seen and experienced. The hypocrisies in the bible, the hypocrisies of many people within the religion, these are the reason I walked away from the religion.

        As for my beliefs, I don’t follow your God. I don’t want to follow a god who condones rape and incest (See the story about Lot), the killing of everyone, man woman and child in a city. (Numbers is a good section for this.) And a large number of other atrocities. No loving creator would want for his children to do this. Killing your neighbors is very contrary to love thy neighbor.

        The stories I have read in the bible demonstrate a jealous, wrathful god. The way the Bible reads it is like we are his pit bulls and he’s testing his dogs in various fights. If you want to follow such a cruel master, go ahead and be his faithful hound, his, flock of sheep. Take your beatings like a good pit bull. Fight for your master. That’s your choice, and I respect that. I love you as a living creature regardless.

        Aho!

        And I do notice constantly in this discussion alone that I have brought up biblical text, areas where this information can be found. You seem to constantly want to ignore the issue and try to distract from any real attempt at education. Where in the Bible are the apologies for killing thousands upon thousands of people? Why would a loving, benevolent god decide he didn’t like his creations anymore and picked out his favorites and drowned all the rest? It’s kind of like a kid deciding he doesn’t like most of his pets so he flushes them down the toilet.

        I’ll stick with the religion that matches my beliefs, thanks. I’m not a big fan of hypocrisy. I get enough of it at work, I don’t need hypocrisy in my faith as well.

        Contrary to your beliefs you can have a faith and not be part of the Abrahamic traditions. There are religions that have been around far longer then yours and that are a lot more honest.

        • Karolyn

          Religion is all about control, plain and simple.

        • Cawmun Cents

          Bottom line is…you choose what you want to believe,so you have none to blame but yourself for making the choice.-CC.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Altaica,
      you forget one very large distinction between us and the other animals. The ability to reason!! The ability to reason between right and wrong! The gay lifestyle is just that a lifestyle and a CHOICE!!!

      • Altaica

        As much as we has humans like to think we are the only animals capable of reason, a large amount of higher mammals also use reason. Dolphins and chimpanzees just to name a couple.

        • Cawmun Cents

          Yeah…when is the last time you observed one of these species modifying its environment in order to live more happily.That is why people like you lack the ability to reason correctly.You see things and think you know the answers based on academic standards,when you are just as clueless as anyone else is.-CC.

          • Altaica

            CC-

            Chimpanzees modify their environment by making nests. Beavers modify their environment, and are second only to us in destructive power. There is a beaver damn in Canada so large it can be seen on Satellite images. Beavers can turn a creek into a lake. Ants modify their environment, although their ability to reason is fairly limited. Ants build amazing colonies, engage in agriculture and if you study the leaf cutter ant can defoliate large tracts of forest. There is another species of ant that does this with grass. Termites modify their environment, architects have marveled and studied the Termite mounds of Africa. They have garbage dumps, air conditioning, nurseries, etc.

            I think the appropriate difference that could be used to differentiate humans that you may be searching for is that unlike the rest of the animal kingdom humans constantly battle their instincts and create complex moral codes to keep instincts that would be detrimental to a society at bay. Which, come to think about meerkats and chimps do this on a limited basis. They will ostracize traitors, expel those that aren’t good for their community based on their standards. Hmmm, but I do think that our capacity for complex morals rivals most creatures.

            I do know something we as humans do that I haven’t seen in some species in the wild, we write out languages down. While many species have complex chemical and oral languages we are the only species I am aware of that has a written language. I think the other thing that sets us apart as a species is our belief in that, as a whole, our species believes it has a right to everything. We think we are far to superior to any thing else in nature. Instead of remaining in balance and taking only what we need we live in excess. We have caused the extinction of countless species of animal. I don’t really think that is what was meant by guardianship of the Earth that is mentioned in the bible. If you are the caretaker of something and you go out and destroy it you’re a poor caretaker. If you hired someone to watch over your house and you came home and some of your pets were dead, there was trash all over the living room, furniture was smashed and it looked like a wild party had been through we would fire that person. I would venture to say that most Americans would also sue for damages. If Adam and Eve were the caretakers of the planet hired by God and we are the inheritors of the family business so to speak I think we are in for a pretty big cosmic lawsuit, because we have made one hell of a mess and killed a lot of “pets” in this big house we call Earth.

    • Jay

      Altaica:“Fourth, the existence of God is not a fact, it is a belief.” and “You cannot teach God as an absolute certainly (sic) as there is no irrefutable scientific proof and provable facts to its existence.”

      Fourth, the non-existence of God is not a fact, it is a belief!

      You cannot teach the non-existence of God as an absolute certainty, as there is no irrefutable scientific proof to support such an assertion!

      • Altaica

        Hmm, that’s the circular logic I have been warned about. Impressive. In case you missed the point, I neither stated one way or another the existence of your god, merely the lack of scientific evidence one way or another. Without such evidence it is solely up to the individual to decide which belief works best for them in the lack of concrete evidence.

        • Cawmun Cents

          Could you possibly mean like evolution?Y’know the part about natural selection.The one where one mutation survives and the fossil records of those that didnt work out dont exsist?Yeah…that one.Funny how the whole impetus of evolution is natural selection yet fossils from those species which were not selected do not appear in the record.How is that?Please explain.-CC.

          • Altaica

            cawmen: I don’t think you really understand the principles and science of evolution. I highly suggest if you actually do want to learn to pick up a science book, read some articles in an accrediated scientific journal and/ or attend a semester of college Biology.

            Now by Natural Selection when one species develops an aspect that is advantageous it will be passed on to the next generation. Over time more and more members of that species will have that trait because it gave those that developed it an edge and they were able to survive and procreate. In time you will end up with two populations, one with the original trait and one with the new trait. Now evolution takes a long time, so it will take a while before the species diverges significantly from the original. As long as both designs are viable to survival both will persist. (you can see this today in Africa where you have cheetahs, lions, and leopards. All are members of the cat family and descended from a common ancestor, but all have different adaptations for their survival.)

            Now, if the two strains of creature are competing for the same food source and niche, one species will inevitably push the other out of existence. We can easily see this in our fossil record by studying the different layers. As you start at the bottom and work your way up you can clearly see relationships of species, an overlap for a time and then the disappearance of one of the species. You will see overlap as each phase is tested.

  • jopa

    Altaica;When I brought up the issue on gun safety in school I didn’t mention any age but when they are around eight or nine years of age that would be appropriate.That’s about what I was when I was hunting on my own.However I have seen some individuals I feel wouldn’t qualify at any age and they could take up basket weaving or knitting.

    • Rick

      Jopa, there is one thing that I have to agree with in that post…

      “Third, when you teach someone, you make sure it is age appropriate. Teaching elementary students about how to operate a gun is not appropriate to their maturity level. Teaching them that guns can be dangerous is, like the poisons under the cabinet. I am sure the complex details of the greater scale of history and such deep facts as religion and sexual orientation would not be taught until children are old enough to understand those ideas. Like when they are old enough to learn about their bodies.”

      The first sentence is the operative phrase here. With that in mind, introducing children to the GLBT lifestyle is NOT age appropriate under any circumstance and should be left as an elective in a college setting where it would have more relevance and the students aren’t already “primed” for indoctrination into that kind of lifestyle. If they choose to go that route at that age then at least they are considered of adult age.

      But I got your point about the firearms training and understood where you were going with it.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Rick,
        I disagree on the gun safety and elementary children. I was about six or seven the year my dad started teaching me about guns. I entered the army and shot expert and have never in my life shot anybody in any other setting but war in a me or them situation. I am a very responsible gun owner and have taught both of my girls how to shoot and the safety involved in guns. I also taught them one very important rule and that is never pull a gun on someone unless if push comes to shove you are WILLING TO USE IT!

        • Rick

          Joe,

          You missed my point. My point I was trying to make was the “teaching being age appropriate” statement in the one response. It is up to the parents to decide when their child is ready for whatever the subject may be. I applaud you for teaching your kids as early as you did. There have been cases in the news where a young child of only 6 or 7 had been schooled in the use of a firearm and successfully stopped a home intrusion or attack against their mother because of it. I too was taught how to properly handle a firearm when I was 7 or 8 and went through a firearms training class when I was 13. I’ve since spent over 20 years in the Air Force as an Intelligence Analyst and now have carry permits good for 36 states and carry from time to time depending on where I might be going that day. I might add that I did not see a need for a carry permit or the need to purchase a firearm until about 2 months after our “annointed one” took the oath and I saw very quickly the direction he intends to take this country. Someone earlier pointed out the 45 steps in the Communist Manifesto that dictate how to destroy capitalism and invoke the Communist party line on a country. I couldn’t agree more that we are already seeing most of those steps being implemented and, I might add, as part of my training for my Air Force career we were taught early on those 45 steps so that we would have a better understanding of our enemy at the time.

          • Rick

            p.s. I just wanted to say “Thank You” for your service while I’m at it.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Rick,
            the same right back atcha!!!

  • duped again

    Gay rights activists are useful idiots – a term used by communists and reserved for those who advance communist agenda without realizing it (getting rid of the religion is an important part of the communist agenda). All those who support these activists are authentic American dupes. One of the recent ones is a state representative in Illinois who evidently was proponent of civil unions here in Illinois to find out what it means for religious bodies only after it has passed. http://www.illinoisfamily.org/news/contentview.asp?c=35294 This is unfortunately typical of many useful idiots and dupes: only after the fact they realize what has happened. By suppressing Christianity homosexuals make a ground fertile for some kind of regime (certainly not democratic) and in fact they will be the first ones to suffer (yes even before the Christians) since there is really no society which tolerates them (except a democracy of course). Too bad homosexuals do not look into the future the way mothers and fathers do and are not concerned about consequences for the future generations, they are not able to care about the future of their offspring since they do not have any and are obsessed only with their present wants. Too sad.

    • Karolyn

      Do you so distrust the veracity of your own religion that you think that it can be undermined by the government or anybody?

      • Rick

        Speaking of “useful idiots”. What a tool you are Madam Karolyn.

        • Karolyn

          Rick – Do you always answer a simple question with a derogatory remark? I guess you don’t have an answer to my question.

          • Push comes to shove

            and Jesus said “before you pull the splinter out of my eye remove the log from yours”

          • Rick

            Sometimes the questions beg for a derogatory remark. Besides you started with the derogatory remarks but then you’re so blind and ignorant that you couldn’t see it if it came up and bit you on your …!!

          • Jay

            Karolyn: Rick, Do you always answer a simple question with a derogatory remark? I guess you don’t have an answer to my question.

            Hmm, which is worse? Always answering a question with a derogatory remark, or always asking a deceitful and derogatory question that begs for a derogatory remark?

    • Karolyn

      Oh, but gays do have offspring, and they are brought up to be loving, caring, intelligent, and often Christian, individuals.

      • duped again

        Listen, I have lived in a communist country – most of what I can say about communism is first-hand experience. And yes the strategy was to eliminate the church thru open persecution in east and also thru penetrating into the church in east and west (I knew of one young communist who was sent to seminary to become a priest but converted during his studies). You have to be really on guard and believe me you do not want a communism here – to live in a “closet” is like living in a paradise comparing to living in a communist country.
        As far as your second comment, I have not witnessed a child to be born out of two homosexual union of two men or two women.

        • Karolyn

          Ever hear of artificial insemination? I know a lesbian couple who have 3 kids – a set of twins to one and a single child to the other. They are the greatest kids! They are intelligent, loving, caring kids and a great asset to society!

          • Rick

            So it is medically possible to take eggs from two female donors and make a baby? Or to take the sperm from two men and make a baby? Artificial insemmination is NOT natural procreation. Granted, it’s possible to make create a child from artificial insemmination but you HAVE to have reproductive cells from BOTH a male and a female in order for it to work. Correct me if I’m wrong. Please. Because that would prove to me that the sex education classes I got when I was in grade school was wrong as well.

          • CJM

            Keep us posted, Karolyn. We are all waiting with bated breath to hear the wonderfully good news that one of your homosexual acquaintances is going to have a baby. That will be interesting, in and of itself. We will certainly want to know all the details, especially about how the gentleman became pregnant (and no fair using the lines from Arnold Schwarznegger’s movie where he gave birth to a baby). No one said that same gender couples could not make good parents, some do and some don’t–just as with heterosexual couples. Why did you feel it was necessary to provide the graphics on the ladies’ pregnancies??? That was information the public did not need to know. See, that’s what I mean when it becomes apparent that same gender couples are forcing their lifestyle onto others..we don’t want their sordid details and we don’t care if they live together; just shut up about it. As for having insurance rights and all that crap, that was nothing more than pure bunk. Some insurance companies already existed that provide coverage for same gender couples; as for information sharing at banks, hospitals, etc, then filling in a simple form allowed the sharing of info. So, all this garbage is just that.

          • Karolyn

            CJM – There are loving homosexual couples who want to commit just like heterosexuals. It’s all about love, not sex or anything else.

          • Jay

            Karolyn:Ever hear of artificial insemination? I know a lesbian couple who have 3 kids – a set of twins to one and a single child to the other. They are the greatest kids! They are intelligent, loving, caring kids and a great asset to society!

            You forgot to add Confused, Indoctrinated, and Brainwashed to the list! Just being helpful…

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            If those GAY parents you talk of produced those children from only THEIR bodies, no outsiders involved, then put me in touch with them, I’ll make them multi-millionaires!!!

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Karolyn,

            Hey,that would be a virgin birth.

          • Cawmun Cents

            (offensive comment removed)

      • Rick

        So what happened in your case? BTW, in my limited intelligence I seem to recall that procreation is NOT possible between two creatures of the same sex. The closest thing would be “asexual” reproduction which only amoebas and certain plants are capable of unless you want to count parthenogenesis and gynogenesis.

        • Rick

          I just want it to be clear, my previous comment was directed at madame Karolyn.

        • Altaica

          There are some animals other than ameobas, like snails, some snails use asexual reproduction. But scientifically speaking humans do not reproduce asexually.

          • Cawmun Cents

            What you meant to say was,”scientifically,humans are not(designed)to reproduce asexually.”-CC.

      • JeffH

        …and some have rejected that lifestyle in their up-bringing and openly voiced that rejection as “I wouldn’t wish my life on anyone”…

        Again, this legislation is dangerous, a slippery slope, the thin edge of the wedge or the camel’s nose. Anyone who has had children or been around young children knows how easy it is to influence them about anything. How will a K-8 child know what gay history means without knowing what a being gay means? Kids are at their most vulnerable during those times and to confuse a child then can lead to a very dangerous repercussions later in life, including but not limited to “guilt” for “experimenting ” with their own sexuality.
        This is what can become the dangerous side of this type of legislation. BUYER BEWARE…!

        I’ll say this about the “social science/history” aspect of teaching about gay contributions to history. We’re taught about ethnic contributions to our history but since when has being “gay” become an ethnicity and since when have we started to discern the “sexual orientation” of our history makers as relevant part of history? Sexual orientation should never be a relevant part of our history teachings.

        I agree fully with Cawmun Cents idea that the teaching of gay history should be offered as an elective, a free choice to those interested and only at the secondary level of education(Grades 9 to 12).

        • Karolyn

          Jeff – Nobody said kindegartners were going to be taught any of this. Surely you’re aware that kids in 5th grade know about sex these days. Many even younger. There are 12 year olds getting pregnant! That tells me that they do need sex education in the early levels. However, we’re not talking about sex education anyway.

          • JeffH

            Karolyn…WELL EXCUSE ME, 1st grade and up…this will become part of the standard curriculum for ages 6 and up…you are completely delusional. Kids don’t understand anything about sex and it’s not the governments job to teach them. Can you spell F-O-R-C-E-D?
            Children will be forced to learn about gay history and with that comes all of the other questions about “gay”. I’m quite sure you learned about gays on your own (maybe?) and other kids don’t need to be forced to learn about gays, their lifestyles or what gay means…they’ll learn about it soon enough, without the forces of some LGBT politically driven agenda.

          • Rick

            Or you could argue that the fact that 12 year olds are getting pregnant and the 5th graders know more about sex than you do is sound reasoning that children need LESS sex education in schools. The point is, if you introduce such a subject to young, impressionable minds, they are naturally going to be curious and will have more of a propensity to experiment “just to find out what all the fuss is about” (that last phrase came from our daughter 8 years ago when we found out that she had become sexually active at the ripe age of 15).
            She told us that she became curious after sex education classes in school. Bottom line is, this is a subject that is best left solely to the parents to discuss with their children when they believe their children are both emotionally and intelligently mature enough to handle such matter. All kids mature at different rates. The schools are NOT the place to teach such a subject because the schools are not the best ones to know if/when a child is mature enough much less force it upon an entire class of raging hormones and testosterone all at different maturity levels. Keep this kind of crap out of our schools and leave it in the hands of the parents where it rightfully belongs. If the parents want to “queer” their child then that is their business but I honestly believe you’d be hard-pressed to find two parents (unless they are proud, rainbow-waving members of the GLBT community) who would actually promote such guidance to their own children.

          • DC/Tex

            Karolyn, I guess you believe the definition of a virgin is a ugly third grader.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            If you are so worried about bullying then why not just teach the kids not to pick on ANYONE DIFFERENT from them???? Why just teach them tolerance for just GAYS???? Why not just DIFFERENT!!! That way there’s no need to mention gay at all!! That won’t happen though as it’s an AGENDA!!!

          • Kate 8

            Seems to me that the ones being bullied are the parents who want to protect their own children and raise them as they, themselves (not government) see fit.

          • Crystal

            Karolyn, read sometimes. The law clearly states K-12.

  • ONTIME

    This is another of those laws that lke grabbing a snake in the wrong place or way will result in you getting the hell bit out you and then it’s remorse time. The LGBT may feel smug now but if they have any brains at all they will be backing down and making amends if the want to remain a viable thought. The bill itself is reprehensible and ridiculous, it will result in the growth of private schools and the further desentigration of a once highly touted PBS, that is now in shambles. Brown will now become just as irrevlevant now as he was in his previous screwed up terms and wind up looking more like a fool than ever. There is no one able to take this nose ringed deemer seriously now and he no one to blame but himself….

    • Doc Sarvis

      A large and growing U.S. population understands that it is a positive development having loving adult couples (heterosexual & homosexual)openly function in our society. NY state is just the next state to grant homosexuals more similar rights as the rest of us have. Good for the Empire state!

      • Push comes to shove

        Yeah, GOOD FOR THEM

        As they are another liberal haven. Give me the good ole mom n’ pop, country cookin’, honor your parents, god, and country mid-west and southern states.

        • Doc Sarvis

          As you wish. Oh by the way, the last three Democratic Presidents came out of the south and the mid-west.

          • Push comes to shove

            And that means what? Dumbocrats come from everywhere unfortunately, even the south, even though they have probably bucked thier upbringin’.

          • Rick

            Not the last one. He came out of the Islam-enforced nation of Indonesia and was born of a open anti-American, Socialist Mother and a Kenyan father who despised the U.S., promoted the downfall of America, and also embraced the Communist party line.

        • Karolyn

          Rick – And you know this how?

          • Rick

            It’s all been well-researched and documented and is a part of public record. Of course I wouldn’t expect someone with your narrow-mindedness to believe it or check it out. Anything that flies in the face of your beliefs has to be some huge lie or conjecture dreamt up without any regard for the truth by the right.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Rick,
            Didn’t you know that kind of print doesn’t show up under rose colored glasses??? Karolyns see no evil, hear no evil, as long as it prog based is gonna be her downfall!!!!

      • CJM

        And NYC has some of the world’s rudest people one can imagine…I don’t think, Doc S, that the world is going to be any better by having marriages between same gender couples…as a matter of fact, it could make some matters worse. Quit dumming up homosexuality; it isn’t the best thing this world has going for it..just my opinion, thank you.

        • Karolyn

          NY hs some of the world’s rudest people? Have you done a study? I beg to differ. As a matter of fact I’ve always told people that most of the people I’ve come into contact with in NYC have been very nice and helpful. I used to live in NJ, 30 minutes from NYC.

          • DC/Tex

            Now I see where you get your belief, you must have lived close too and voted for the evil sucker Barnie Franks.

          • eddie47d

            DC is disoriented for Franks is from Massachusetts.

  • Palin12

    I wonder if these new textbooks will also discuss Jeffrey Dahmer and his accomplishments as a homosexual. Why is that every single piece of legislation that I ever hear out of the mouth of this Leno guy has something to do with gays? Are there no other issues he is concerned with? The good news is that California’s busted budget will not allow for these new textbooks until at least 2015.

    • Karolyn

      There IS a difference between homosexuals and perverts!

      • CJM

        Karolyn: Then why do homosexuals liken themselves to perversion? Yes, there is a difference between homosexuality and perversion…but when one uses ones’ sexual preferences as a weapon in order to gain something they want at the expense of others, then it becomes a perverse action. If your friends do not wish to be considered perverts, then perhaps you should talk to them and explain they should not behave in the manner that perverts do.

        • Karolyn

          What do you mean “liken’ themselves to perversion. To them it is not perversion. It is who they are/what they are. To them it is as natural as anything else. I would bet a lot of men posting here wouldn’t mind watching a lesbian couple make love. Of course, they probably wouldn’t admit it.

          • Jay

            Hmm, the indoctrination has begun!

          • Rick

            There you go again. Everything is about sex with you. You’re the one with their brain in the gutter.

          • Rick

            Sorry, I should’ve pointed out that that last comment is aimed at the madame of smut and immorality.

          • Joyce from Loris

            You really are a sicko, Karolyn.

  • JeffH

    We’ve yet to hear from Robert Smith on this issue which I’m quite sure is very dear to his heart.

    • Jay

      Jeff, I was asking myself the same question. Where is the illustrious champion of perversion and all that is decadent? Hmm…

    • http://?? Joe H.

      JeffH,
      Probably letting his first lady of perversion Karolyn do his heavy lifting!!!

      • JeffH

        :)

      • Dan az

        The last time I heard he was driving a van full of pregnant women to a clinic to have abortions. ;0

        • Jay

          While weaving his way through a gay-pride parade!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            While trying to find a real she man of his own!!!

  • Maire

    Liberals cry for “Tolerance” again and again. Unfortunately, they demand it for themselves, yet are the least likely to give it to those who disagree with whatever view they have. When someone disagrees with their viewpoint, instead of honest and polite discussion, there usually is a slew of name-calling, distractive rhetoric, and disruptive (and at times distructive/violent) protests.

    I often hear Liberals say, “You can’t legislate Morality” However, this bill now legislates what the majority of Californians (based on the same-sex marriage votes – on more than one occasion) consider to be an Immoral lifesyle. This bill, in reality, legislates a type of morality. It mandates that everyone accept this lifestyle and even mandates that parents are not allowed to opt their children out of any part of it, nor will they be notified of what is being taught.

    If you want to legislate “Bullying”, that is another matter. However, if bullying is illegal, then why is there a need to make certain groups “special” and call it a “Hate Crime”. Isn’t all bullying a hate crime? There are many instances of minor incidents being labeled hate crimes and other horrific incidents were ruled by the courts as not being hate crimes because it didn’t include those in the “special groups”. Does this sound fair or tolerant to you?

    If Christian parents believe the bible, as it has been translated for thousands of years to mean (not the newer twisted definitions to make homosexuality seem acceptable) that homosexuality is not acceptable to God,then why are they being bullied and forced to accept that which God finds unacceptable? If they read these (and other) excerpts,
    “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22). “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13), to mean that homosexuality is a sin, then why should their children be forced to learn otherwise in the public, tax-payer funded, school system? No one is saying that homosexuals can’t live they way they want or are taking their freedoms away, but when does the right of so few trump the rights of religious freedoms of so many? Does that seem fair or tolerant?

    If a person is truly a Christian, they also know that the bible has many references on not judging one another. However, it has many lessons on not condoning the immoral behaviors of others. Although Christians may not condone the lifestyle of homosexuals, they are obligated to treat everyone with kindness. I can’t say that the same holds true in reverse. The homosexual agenda holds disdain for Christians and attempts to remove any sign of Christianity in our government, schools, and lives.

    The Founding Fathers of this country believed that Separation of Church and State meant that this country should not set up nor be ruled by a Church as was done with the Church of England. It was more than evident that they intended that God should be included in our country. If that were not the case, then why would the name of God be included in so many of the founding documents?

    Liberals cry for FREEDOM, yet have no problem binding those that disagree with them. Let the parents decide what morals should be taught to their children. Stating that a person is homosexual is NOT the same as saying they were Muslim, Russian, or disabled.

    As a side note: when did being “Politically Correct” become more important than “Morally Correct”? Our country used to pride itself on its good and moral people. “Politicians” and “Politics” were looked down upon due to the sneakiness and undesirable actions associated with them. Someone coined the phrase, “Politically Correct” and it has been taken to such an extreme that it often defies logic.

    • Altaica

      To Maire:
      Leviticus also says that you should not eat shellfish or rock badgers or cloven hoofed animals, round the corners of your hair or beard, and that men that have lost a testicle or made impotent (i.e. had a vasectomy) are not allowed to attend church. I believe this is the same section (could be dueteronomy) that states if a women comes between her husband and someone he is fighting and touches his crotch with her hand while trying to separate them, that her hand is to be cut off. It is also stated in the bible that adulterers are to be put to death. So I am curious, there is a myriad of laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, do you follow all of those as well? I have yet to meet someone who quotes those laws in the bible that follows all of them. I also often hear the argument that those are old testament and don’t pertain, and if that is the argument then neither should the lie with a man as a woman thing.

      • Altaica

        I do have to agree with the politically correct stuff though. I do believe it has been taken way to far. If we could just treat each other with equality then the whole label thing wouldn’t even matter anyway.

        • Karolyn

          Right!

          • eddie47d

            Maire; You haven’t been around the block too much for the right wing blogger can come up with some rather vile comments and they are just warming up.

      • Maire

        There were many changes in the laws and such with Jesus… do you remember the stoning of the woman for example? That was a good try at trying to distract from the real issue, though. Perhaps we can stay on the issues at hand and the real implications.

        • Jay

          Marie: That was a good try at trying to distract from the real issue, though. Perhaps we can stay on the issues at hand and the real implications.

          Marie, to expect the reasonable from the atheistic commie brigade that frequents this site, is liken to expect fresh water from a poisoned well. A dauntless yet fruitless exercise! “Don’t cast your pearls before swine”

          • Altaica

            Well seeing as the bible was brought up by you for determining the efficacy of the sin I wanted to get a basis as to what branch you fell under. My apologies to you for going off track a bit, it was the deviation with religion that moved me off subject. As a country with separation of church and state religion should have no place in law making, regardless of how we feel from a religious standpoint laws need to be made with equality in mind. After the reading the bill I see that they have once again proven to me just how corrupt our government is. The law is intellectually dishonest as it does incorporate all sides of the history.

            On your stance on bullying, I agree wholeheartedly. If we treated each other as humans and bullying as the assault that it is there would be no need for labels and different crimes. Any way you look at the situation bullying is assault. People bully each other because of differences. There is no reason to treat one form of bullying from another. The actions taken and the results of the action are what matter.

            Jay: I am not a communist, I am against communism and socialism. The systems do not work and do not allow for equality. And an atheist I am certainly not either. Liberal, perhaps on some issues, on other issues I am very conservative. The correct classification would be middle of the road. I like to look at all issues and sides and use intellect and logic to come to a decision. That’s what having a free will is about after all. Making choices for ourselves. And boards such as this are for healthy debate where people can express viewpoints. I am sure many people would appreciate reasonable debates from you rather then your backhanded insults.

            Thank you

      • Jay

        Altaica, it is painfully apparent that theology is not your forte, as you mishandle, and misunderstand the relationship between law and Grace, however, there can be no doubt that your strength lies in your effortless ability to make a complete ass of yourself!

        • Altaica

          Jay,
          It is clear that intellectual debate is beyond you. I ask questions our of genuine intellectual curiosity and state facts I have read for myself. Theology my not be my specialty, however I have read and am re-reading many religious texts, including the most direct translation of your bible from the Hebrew/ Coptic language.

          I have never claimed to know everything and I have been open and diplomatic in my discussions here. I have done my best to avoid name calling and present the actual facts. You on the other hand have not provided me with anything other then an attempt at an insult.

        • Altaica

          To further note, I know the ins and out of Christianity quite well having been raised Christian, attended Sunday school every Sunday and morning worship until I reached High school and was able to see there was so much more. I even sang in the choir, and El Shaddai is still a song I love. I do not need a degree in Theology to be able to read that which is written in black and white. If such was the case then there would be far less Christians out there spouting their doctrine. I am quite well educated and capable of acknowledging what has been written by many men that compiles the sacred text of the Christian. I am very capable of seeing how the text itself contradicts itself. I am willing to research and read about different religions and listen to different viewpoints and seek education. I am capable of deciding for myself what resonates with my heart, spirit and mind. I am capable to objectivity so that I may learn and see things from different angles. Are you?

          Cogito Ergo Sum.

          • Karolyn

            No, Altaica, they are not capable of objectively. Religion has placed the fear in them that they cannot question anything written in the Bible. That is why I remained Christian for so long – not because of devotion but because of fear. Even though I questioned so much, I was afraid of the wrath of God should I not believe the commonly accepted interpretation of the Bible.

          • Cawmun Cents

            Everyone questions,otherwise it would be knowledge pushed in the bible and not faith.Nowhere in Abrahamic literature is knowledge pushed as the ideal.It(knowledge of the law)only came into exsistence as a result of the Mosaic laws.Abraham had faith which is what Christianity is based upon.Mosaic law was given at the time when Mosaic law could readily be observed.In todays world Mosaic law cannot be observed.There is no temple,therefore the atonement sacrifice cannot be made.God in His wisdom saw that this would be the case,so He sent His only begotten Son,so that a perfect atonement could be made once and for all time.Proof of this cannot be attained scientifically,for God does not let human knowledge and wisdom be the key to finding Him.Rather He chose to make the things which seem foolish to men,to be of unique importance,and the knowledge of man to be impotent.That way man can never boast in front of God,of his great knowledge.Mans great knowledge is of lttle use to man or God.Since it bears little influence on the finality of his condition,mans knowledge comes to an end when he dies.Many people who claim to be educated,think they know much about the past.But since they were not there,they postulate about most of it as if they really knew.But since they were never there,they really dont have much of a clue outside of Greek philosophy,just how ancient man thought.A point which is well made in the New Testament.1 Corinthians 1:22-25.
            22.”Gods way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true.And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom.”23.So when we preach that Christ was crucified the Jews are offended,and the Gentiles say it is all nonsense.”24.”But to those called by God to salvation,both Jews and Gentiles,Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God.”25.This foolish plan of God,is far wiser than the wisest of human plans,and far stronger than the greatest of human strength.”
            And further to illusrtate,move on to the rest of the scripture which reads as follows:26.”Remember dear brothers and sisters that few of you were wise in the worlds eyes,or powerful,or wealthy when God called you.”27.”Instead,God deliberately chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those that think they are wise.And He chose those who are powerless to shame those who are powerful.”28.”God chose things despised by the world,things counted as nothing at all,and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important,”29.so that no one can ever boast in the presence of God”.-Paul of Tarsus
            So muse on if you will,leading others astray.It may be of some importance to know all that knowledge someday…perhaps it may even prove useful.But dont stake your life on it.Or rather go ahead and stake your life on it,its your choice.-CC.

          • Altaica

            Are you not doing the same thing by touting that your religion, your path is the only way?

            We may speculate and wonder what others thought, but the truth is the bible was written by men. It was handed down and augmented by man. It has changed to fit the views of man. The bible itself speculates on how the ancient societies thought, because unless that person themselves provides a detailed accounting we can never truly know what one person has going through their head.

            We know what some history is because there is written text that details it. History is not perfect. Neither is your text. It has long been know that History is written by the victors. In modern times we have tried to be open and honest, well some people have, to present all the sides, but let’s face it. If it is an accounting, written by a human, chances are it is flawed somewhere. Exact transcriptions of dictations are rarely ever 100% spot on and will often be dressed up to make them sound more impressive.

            Respect each other. Respect all of nature. These are natural concepts to us as humans and are certainly not a first in the Bible. If you take out all the filler to make the stories appealing and interesting you will get right down to the same concepts that are from religions far older than yours. I appreciate and respect the diversity on our planet. It makes things interesting, however your belief that your way is the only way is arrogant. Your belief that we all must follow your way or suffer for eternity is arrogant. You can go on living your arrogant lifestyle and walk your path of the condemnation of others. I prefer to love all that walk, crawl, swim and fly and learn from all of my relations of nature. I will love my neighbor as I love myself. I will not judge them, for their choices are their own and my choices are my own. I will share what I have to offer and not be offended by those who refuse, for it is their choice whether they wish to partake or not. I wish I could expect the same of others, but I love them as a living creature regardless. I know when my body is used up my spirit will move on, but It will not as you say be damned to eternal torment. Energy is drawn to energy and I will be drawn back to the spark of life. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed.

    • Karolyn

      What is wrong with acceptance? Acceptance does not necessarily mean condoning or even liking certain behavior.

      Would you believe that there are a great many Christian homosexuals? Yes! It’s really true! A dear friend of mine is a gay, conservative Christian!

      How can you accept some of the teachings in the Old Testament and not all of them? If you accept all, then surely you are doomed! But I guess it’s OK to pick and choose?

      • JeffH

        What is wrong with acceptance?

        You should have said: What is wrong is “forced” acceptance? Everything!

        • Karolyn

          I will give you that, Jeff.

          • Jay

            That’s very kind of you Karolyn, but what exactly did you give?

  • TC

    FORGET EVERYTHING THAT HAS JUST BEEN SAID BY EVERYBODY. IF YOU DO NOT WANT YOU CHILDREN “EXPOSED” TO SUCH NATURE TEACH THEM YOURSELVES. THE END.

    • duped again

      Again, I have to warn that private schools and homeschooling is a short-termed solution as – if trend continues – they will be banned. Also, my experience from growing up in a communist country – my parents did not dare to tell me the truth and I had to find out quite by myself what the truth (most in everything) was before they would discussed that with me. They were understandably afraid of consequences had they told the child the truth. In my opinion time will come here when the choices will be limited and some of them will not be without punishment if people will not vote correctly in 2012. Last chance!!

      • JeffH

        Well stated duped again.

    • Push comes to shove

      TC,
      Most responsible parents would like to do exactly that, but our governments are getting in the way of that with every thing from sex ed, to who is homosexual, global warming, snitching on parents for smoking in the thier own homes, etc. (i am sure everyone knows the other ones). The point is we are not being allowed to and i bet if i was a fly on the wall in a classroom i would hear the phrase ‘well, your parents are wrong, it is ok to be or do _____________ (you fill in the blank).

      • Karolyn

        Well, you aren’t the fly on the wall, so this is pure quesswork on your part.

        • CJM

          Unfortunately, Karolyn, it IS NOT SPECULATION…it is the truth. And, yes, I have heard more than enough teachers tell their students that their parents are wrong, and then go on to do exactly what the poster said. Not being a fly on the wall–I was there. I really feel sorry for you because of your ignorance and the obvious fact that you will do nothing to help yourself when the time comes. It appears you are not willing to help others. Who really cares if your friends (and perhaps yourself) are “oriented to other preferences?” The fact is, if this is what one wants, fine, but you do not have the right to force your lifestyle onto the remainder of the community.

          • Karolyn

            That is very unfortunate about the teachers’ behavior.

      • Push comes to shove

        Well i really don’t have to be the fly on the wall when my 6-year-old came home from school and relayed to me that the teached asked the kids to raise thier hands if your parents smoked, what the hell business is it of thiers if i smoke? NONE, and i do, they also asked them to ask us how much we smoke, do we smoke in the house, around them? CAN you say NANNY STATE. My child, my business. That goes for smoking, sexuality, gender, race creed color or anything else they want to morally inflict upon my child. I WILL teach him the Christian values i believe and was brought up on. At the rate we’re going now that will be a crime within the next decade. He will learn about other religions or non-religions but only after i instill in him some fundamental principles that it is my right as a parent to do, not the governments and not the schools.

        Those legislators and the governor in Cali-fornication land need, as we Texans say, some good ole’ common sense knocked into thier hard heads.

        • Karolyn

          You make some very good points. I do understand. Unfortunately, not all kids have good parents like you, and the schools are left picking up the slack. You are probably better off homeschooling, although if you are raising good children, there should be no worries about what they are taught in school. They should have discerning minds.

          • Jay

            Convoluted Liberal double-speak!

  • Raggs

    Hey… If they can teach queers how to have sex why not teach straight kids how as well?

    Who needs to learn math, english or history anyway?.. When we can teach them Spanish and sex, should be a pretty productive society huh?

    • Karolyn

      Raggs – Why be so ridiculous? Nobody’s teaching anybody how to have sex. We don’t need to be taught that!

      • Altaica

        Made me stop and laugh though. :)

      • JeffH

        Karolyn, you’re being contradictory and a hypocrite. Make up your confused mind.

        Karolyn says: July 18, 2011 at 1:32 pm
        Raggs – Why be so ridiculous? Nobody’s teaching anybody how to have sex. We don’t need to be taught that!

        In an earlier post you said: “Surely you’re aware that kids in 5th grade know about sex these days. Many even younger. There are 12 year olds getting pregnant! “That tells me that they do need sex education in the early levels”.”

        • Karolyn

          I didn’t say what levels did I? And they sure ain’t teaching HOW to have sex.

          • JeffH

            You said, and I quote: “Surely you’re aware that kids in 5th grade know about sex these days. Many even younger. There are 12 year olds getting pregnant! “That tells me that they do need sex education in the early levels”.”

            You are a hypocrit!

          • CJM

            Karolyn: FYI——–YES they are teaching children HOW to have sex. It gets more graphic each year and the “educators” start this with the children from grades 3 and up (depending on where you go to school). They are even dispensing condoms to children in 5th grade WITHOUT PARENTAL APPROVAL…….where the h… have you been these past couple of years? Its been in the news and not too long ago, a few of our wonderful union reps (teachers) went to the UN and said they plan to FORCE sex education onto our children beginning in grade one and the parents will have no authority in the matter (meaning, when in school,the teacher has total control over your child and YOU, the parent will go to jail if you interfere). Do you not see the parallel here with what hitler did in Germany at the beginning of socializing that country? The children were removed from the parents and placed in his special schools. When the children visited the parents, they spied on them and turned mom and dad over to the authorities–many were executed as a result. Get your head out of the sand, that is if you aren’t an ostrich!

          • Karolyn

            CJM – My point is that we don’t NEED to be taught how to have sex. It’s a natural act.

  • chuckb

    you have to consider, moonbeam brown is homosexual himself. the liberal media and the bolshevik party have tried to cover this up since he was first elected governor in the seventies. he supposedly married when he was 68, if you want to believe it was true love then go ahead. the woman he married is around 58 and never married, so you figure it out. one things for sure the liberal media in california will cover for him.
    there were too many stories floating around and the law of average says he is gay. the stories about he and linda ronstadt and their trip to africa was baloney, when they landed he went one way and she the other and never the twain shall meet. i wouldn’t be surprised that linda herself is gay. one things for sure he is definitely a “moonbeam”

    my belief is those that are homosexual are born that way, there probably are some loose brained straights that would try anything, but
    all in all that type of lifestyle would be too obnoxious for most straight people, it would be for me. we shouldn’t treat these people with any less respect then we do our normal. they in turn shouldn’t flaunt it in our face. people like brown inserting these books in our classrooms is flaunting this lifestyle amongst the vulnerable minds of little children and this is only part of the very liberal agenda of california. they can’t add two and two, however, they can tell you all the scores of the nba and nfl plus the latest rock hits.

    • Karolyn

      Did you see anything about teaching “little children” in this blog? I didn’t.

      • Push comes to shove

        You didn’t? Then start at the very top again, and while your at it respond to my first entry on this discussion.

        • Karolyn

          It just says “public schools,” no age or grade.

          • JeffH

            Karolyn, it doesn’t have to…public schools teach K-12…RIGHT?

          • Jay

            Homosexuality: A state funded, and state supported religion! Where is the ACLU when you need them? Oh wait, they’re too busy eradicating Christianity from education system. Who exactly is guilty of proselytizing here? And on tax-payers dime may I add!

      • JeffH

        Sound familiar?

        “Surely you’re aware that kids in 5th grade know about sex these days. Many even younger. There are 12 year olds getting pregnant! “That tells me that they do need sex education in the early levels”.”

        • Evermyrtlmyrtle

          Not if they only use only homo style sex!!!!!!

      • CJM

        Karolyn: It is CA Public Law and it affects PUBLIC SCHOOLS, which happen to include grades K-12…if the line reads “see Spot chase Jane” the book will have to tell the little ones “see Spot chase Jane, a cute lesbian who plays with her puppy”…………got it? Or, for a little older student, “Razzmatazz, a saxaphonist, is well known for his great Jazz music” is now translated to “Razzmatazz, a homosexual saxaphonist, is well known for her (or “his” if he is the dominant male in the homo relationship) great Jazz music”. And just maybe, “Orian Raspberry, the great homosexual chemist, was named as the new leader for ABC Laboratories, Inc. in 2009. He developed the watchamacallit oxygen sustaining tank after discovering that R&B chemicals purified oxygen for longer periods of time while the diver was underwater.” So, if your children attend Public Schools, EXPECT this nonsense. No grade is safe…and notice: the mixing of his/her categories that are based on that particular homosexual’s position in a relationship. Lesbian “males” are referred to as ‘butches’ so she is (according to them) a “he”. On the other hand, a homosexual “female” is referred to a “she”, when in fact “he” is a she. What they are commonly referred to on the streets is not allowed to be repeated on a message board…so we won’t be giving the monitor a heart attack! If you don’t want your child to be subjected to this tripe, remove them from the public school system and put them in parochial or private schools or home school your child.

        • CJM

          a homosexual “female” is referred to a “she”, when in fact “he” is a she. ……………. This sentence should read: “a homosexual “female” is referred to a “she”, when in fact “SHE” is a a “he.”

        • http://?? Joe H.

          CJM,
          The problem with this is that there is already talk in Washington about making it illegal to home school. They are also considering putting private schools under the control of the government!

          • Jay

            This is most troubling, JoeH! Evil men and women are unknowingly kindling God’s wrath. There will soon be no more mercy and grace, as all mercy and grace, will shortly run-out!

      • Crystal

        It’s in the law. K-12.

    • Karolyn

      Who gives a rat’s patootie what Jerry Brown is?

      • CJM

        As the CA governor and as a politician……….he has the power to force upon you laws that YOU do NOT want.

      • Jay

        Karolyn: Who gives a rat’s patootie what Jerry Brown is?

        Then who gives a rat’s patootie what Michele Bachman is, or what Sarah Palin is? But off course, when it comes to the two people mentioned and others, like-minded, you do give a rat’s patootie what they are, don’t you Karolyn? I see you have made hypocrisy, your constant companion!

        • JeffH

          Jay, astute observation on your part…an easy one though.

        • Karolyn

          I could care less if Michelle Bachmann or Sarah Palin was transgendered! I look at people at people, not as labels.

          • Jay

            You must have ducked Karolyn, because that one went right over your head. Just as well, it could have been fatal!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Jay,
            what harm could there be in hitting an empty container?!?!?!?

          • Jay

            LOL! Good point!

          • Karolyn

            Jay, what makes you think I didn’t get your message?

          • Kate 8

            karolyn – You say you look at people, not labels…and yet, that is what this is all about, isn’t it? Defining and singling people out by their labels…

            Reading your posts has got my head swimming. Queen of contradictions.

  • http://GOGGLE vaksal

    PERSONALLY,we live in a free choice system,so its claimed,but the hard thruth is that a small group of people are talking their private life styles and are using tax payer dollars to fund their agendas,by pushing this otherwise private lifestyle choice into the public school system,maybe those government funds should be put to better use,by straight folks in funding christan values,but that is not wanted by those who wish to turn family values into a secondary factor in the choice these kids will carry their whole lives,and its a choice,but it should not be tought in public schools ever. welcome to the new world order,where the minority rules the majority,a real sodom and gamora,and the crazies are running this policy.

    • Push comes to shove

      AMEN, and i will not be a pillar of salt when the time comes to walk away.

    • Altaica

      Actually I do believe that the knowledge that there are different sexual orientations should be discussed in sex ed classes. When teens are learning what they are they need to know that if they are experiencing something with their changing bodies they know who they can go to talk about it. An understanding that there are different ways people love each other is important. Sexual education is a class intended to help our adolescents understand what might be happening in their bodies. Giving them a framework of resources they can go to and learn is a good thing. So many teens commit suicide because they are confused and frustrated. Many parents don’t teach their kids anything about that part of life leaving them to figure it out for themselves. In some cases they may have parents that condemn the lifestyle, yet the youth feels that it is who they are and needs someone to turn to.

      I think the overall point is sexual orientation does not mean you can’t contribute to society, and it doesn’t make you the bad guy. You can be any sexual orientation and be good or bad. You choose how you want to live your life, and if you have questions about your life you have a right to seek answers. There is a lot of coverage for negative contributors, and that is true for everything, not just GBTL. I think if it was an important fact about the person, good or bad, it should be included. I think if it is factually important to record history of J. Dahmer being homosexual, because it defined who his serial victims were and his motivations. I think the importance of the fact needs to be weighed and those of greatest significance be presented. In some cases sexual orientation will matter, in others its historically relevant. Just present the important facts in the history books, leave the trivial stuff to biographies and expanded texts.

      • CJM

        Altacia: You have the right idea. Unfortunately, the new CA bill demands that anyone who is a person of interest for history books, the description must include the fact that he/she is either homosexual or lesbian; if the person is heterosexual or a morphodite, the preference is NOT mentioned…….which is ludicrous. Who cares what they prefer? The invention or greatness did not result from the genital area, so why give it recognition?

        • Altaica

          CJM, I read through that bill and I can’t help but think it is intellectually dishonest. If the sexual orientation is so important of the individual as to have driven their acts in history that it is necessary to mention it we should not be omitting those historical acts that were less favorable. The holocaust was a terrible event, we teach about it, and know that Hitler was a devout catholic. We also teach about the good works of good people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa. We don’t ignore the negative impact of a historical figure and only tell our youth about the good history. That is ridiculous. Both the good and bad contributors of history must be taught about. If you omit all the negative contributions of individuals because they reflect poorly on that community then our youth are going to be even more woefully under-educated. If you teach the youth only the positive they are going to live in a fantasy world and be unprepared for the world at large. You can’t just pick and choose when you are teaching history. The way this bill reads, their history books can only contain positive historical figures. That is total bs. Whether we like it or not history has shaped our world. You can’t just ignore what you don’t like. We need to teach our youth how to think for themselves and look at all sides of the picture, not create more narrow-mindedness. If you want to include how the GBTL helped shaped history that’s fine, but you need to provide the true facts, not sugar coated pills. Every society, ethnicity and religion has it’s good and bad people. Our youth need to see that. Our youth need to be taught honestly, without obscuring the facts. Teach the truth, no matter how raw it may be. Let them see the world as it really is. There is enough sugar in our kids diet already don’t candy coat the truth. As the quote goes “those we fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

          • Karolyn

            Thank you Altaica.

  • chuckb

    karolyn, this bill sb48 includes elementary schools, probably starting in the fourth grade, however, knowing california they will begin in head start. don’t you thing fourth graders are little kids? i don’t see them as teenagers, of course there probably are teenagers in the fourth grade in a lot of our major cities.

    • JeffH

      …try age 6 and up…

    • Rick

      In her mind ChuckB, there ARE NO children. Every human being on this planet is of legal age thus fair game for her and those like her. It’s all part of their agenda and ultimate goal.

      • Karolyn

        Wow! Your mind really IS in the gutter, isn’t it Rick! That seems to be all you can think of. There is a lot more to homosexuals than their sexual preference.

        • Evermyrtlmyrtle

          Karolyn, there is no level lower that homosexuality in the gutter. That is at the very bottom.

          I think it wold be fine to teach Homsexuality in school if it is taught in it’s entirity. Start with Genesis 19 in the Bible. Teach GOD’S punishment for this abomination, the diseases that are connected to it, the emotional problems which this causes. Leave nothing concerning this evil out. Be sure that it is well understand for GOD’S level of wisdom and plans for HIS people. We will each see GOD face to fce when we leave this earth and need to be prepared for HIS decisions, then. He will say to each person HE meets then, “My good and faithful servant” and heaven will be our home or HE may say, “Depart from me I never knew you.” and hell will be our home forevermore.

          • Karolyn

            We are ALL God’s (the all-in-all) creation, and he/she/it turns away from no one! We were all created perfect, just the way we are.

          • Jay

            Karolyn: We are ALL God’s (the all-in-all) creation, and he/she/it turns away from no one! We were all created perfect, just the way we are.

            Perverted religious heresy, straight from the lips of a perverted heretic!

          • Karolyn

            Jay – I don’t put you down for your religious beliefs and call you names. Why do you put me down for mine? Once again, not very Christian. People like you are the reason so many are pushed away from the Christian religion. And I have heard that from former Christians. Happy?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            If all of those so-called “Christians” are like you, then I can see why they were pushed away!!! They were disappointed at the lack of do what you feel like living!

          • Altaica

            Let’s clear up something right now, not everyone is Christian and believes in your views. Members of the GBTL are still people. They are equal in the eyes of the law and each one should be treated as an individual just as each person posting here should be such. Generalizations are how wars are started, which as a historical fact, more wars have started over religion then any other topic, and a disproportionate amount were started by Christians.

            Read the entirety of your bible, and not the candy coated versions they feed you in church, I mean get it out and read it. I did. In Genesis alone there are a number of contradictions within the pages. And before you say I have a flawed Bible, I went out of my way and researched and collected the one that was the least altered and a direct translation from the coptic and hebrew languages the original was written in.

            God created the birds and animals before Adam in Genesis 1, in Genesis 2 he created the birds and animals after Adam. In Gen 1 he created Adam and Eve at the same time, in Genesis 2 he created Adam first. In Genesis 1 he was pleased with his creation. in Gen 2 he was displeased. This is not the only part of your sacred text that contradicts itself.

            To add to this one commandment says “Love they neighbor as you would love thyself.” It doesn’t read love they neighbor unless they are different from your and then you may hate them and put them down. So based on one of you most base laws, one of the 10 given to you by your God directly and not arbitrated by men later on tells you to love them. The way you speak you must really hate yourself, because I do not hear words of love coming from you.

            To add to this, our founding documents say “All men are created equal” by men they were referring to humans in general. Again, they are not the lowest of the low, they are equal.

            In my opinion the lowest of the low should be child molestors, rapists and murderers. People who have taken away the inalienable rights of others to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

          • Altaica

            To Jay:
            How nice of you to run your mouth and call us Heretics and Heathens.

            Let me educate you a little bit: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heretic

            As you can see from the definitions you would have to know that the person is not from an established religion, belief or doctrine. In order to be a heretic you have would have to deviate from an accepted belief or doctrine. Now you are assuming that Christianity is the only accepted belief system and doctrine which is not true. You have Hinduism, Judeism, Muslim, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Native American religions, and a whole list of other religions out there.

            Now consider for a moment this fact: Christianity is based in Judeism. The entire Old Testament is the Jewish Torah. Christians believe in the coming of the Messiah, Jews do not. Based on this truth and knowledge Christians have deviated from the accepted beliefs and doctrines of the Jewish religion and are therefore by definition heretics.

            Now from another viewpoint. Not all who converted to Christianity were based in Judeism. A very large number of these people were Roman and thus followed the state religion and a pantheon of deities. As they deviated from their religion again the Christians are heretics.

            How can a religion that is based on heresy condemn others for growing and changing based on what they learned. Christianity itself began as a heresy. You spew the word like it is a bad thing, but your religion would not exist if it were not for heretics.

            Now for the word Heathen: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heathen

            As we can see a heathen is someone that is strange and uncivilized. I am sure given the fact that we are communicating on an electronic forum that we are all “civilized” here.

            now just to be clear I decided to look up the word civilized: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilized

            I believe we are all Americans here, or some other form of civilized government. Given this fact the use of the word heathen is inappropriate and misrepresented.

            As a further note, I have been reading a book titled “Encyclopedia of Heresies and Heretics” by Clifton. Perhaps you should pick it up. I think you would be quite surprised to learn that the vast majorities of “heresies” that the catholic church has gone out against have been different strains of the Christian religion. Origen, a very important christian founder himself was labeled a heretic. Martin Luther, John Calvin, the list goes on. Also you should note that historically more than one of your saints were canonized for the murder of people. Pope Innocent III ordered a crusade on the Albigensians (A branch of christianity that the roman catholics destroyed) and his crusaders killed not just the Albigensians but also all the innocent people of an entire city. 15000 to 20000 people in all, men, women and children. Guess where the phrase kill em all and let God sort em out came from? The saint you may be wondering: Saint Simon of Montfort.

            Now, think about that next time you want to spew insults. I am neither by definition a heretic or a heathen. I’m not afraid of the truth and I am not afraid to learn about others ways. I am a Homo Sapien which translates to Thinking Man. I prefer to think for myself and look at the makes and use logic to come to a conclusion. I prefer to look at both sides and present the truth and facts as they are given. This does not make me a Heathen. As I am a thinking man I am following the very doctrine of our species and am therefore not a heretic.

            Have a nice day and happy thinking.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Altaica,
            Yes, yess, we know you have read your Bible. WITH YOUR MIND! Try reading it again, this time WITH YOUR HEART!!!! If you can’t understand what I am getting at then study it!

          • Jay

            Altaica, spoken like a true fool. I told you before, theology is not your forte! Stay out of the kitchen. How long will you determine to make an ass of yourself?

            You stated: As you can see from the definitions you would have to know that the person is not from an established religion, belief or doctrine. In order to be a heretic you have would have to deviate from an accepted belief or doctrine.

            As you may not know, since you are obviously new here, Karolyn has shared the fact that, in the past, she considered herself to be a Christian. That can certainly be confirmed by how deftly she applies biblical scripture to suit or make her point. Therefore, the definition of heretic, that you so generously provided, fits her to a T!

            You stated:Now you are assuming that Christianity is the only accepted belief system and doctrine which is not true. You have Hinduism, Judeism, Muslim, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Native American religions, and a whole list of other religions out there.

            No, you, are assuming, that I am assuming that Christianity is the only accepted belief system and doctrine. Btw, your definition and understanding of religion, and religious terms, is nothing short of abysmal!

            Happy making a fool of yourself!

          • Altaica

            To Jay:

            Jay says:
            July 22, 2011 at 12:59 am
            Jay: Altaica, spoken like a true fool. I told you before, theology is not your forte! Stay out of the kitchen. How long will you determine to make an ass of yourself?
            Altaica: But I like cooking and trying new recipes. It’s fun and sometimes the best food comes from trial and error. If one cannot speak on a topic and get honest feedback and education unless they are a specialist then how are we supposed to exchange ideas and generate understanding? By the logic you are presenting then anyone here who is not a scientist should not be speaking on science, or a politician on politics. That’s a pretty foolish notion. This board would be pretty vacant of comments I think if we followed those rules. If you think I am ignorant then present your evidence so that I might see it for myself. You say I am a fool and ignorant on theology, yet I have seen no concrete attempts at teaching me. Why I am wrong and where can find this information? I know what I have read; I know what has been preached to me. There are so many branches of Christianity with so many different interpretations of the Bible. So, if you are so intent on pointing out my ignorance why not provide education with it? I’m a scientist; show me the data and where my calculations are incorrect. Show me where the information I have quoted from the Bible is incorrect. I enjoy learning. I am a student of life.
            When I have discussions of religion with my Catholic and Lutheran friends we try and teach each other so we can understand each other. I have listened to my friends father, an ordained Lutheran minister. I have listened to my father, another ordained minister. When I discuss Hinduism with my Hindi friend he is willing to field my questions and help me to learn. Theologians became specialists because they studied, asked questions, read text, and engaged in debate, in other words they were educated. If it is your opinion that my experiences and research is incorrect then direct me to where I may be able to find answers, teach me what you think something means. Show me examples. If you are willing to call me an idiot but unwilling to show me why, if you can’t be constructive, then you are no different.
            If seeking to learn and understand makes me an ass and a fool, I would much rather be a fool willing to admit a lack of understanding then someone who is arrogant and boasts absolute knowledge.

            Jay:
            As you may not know, since you are obviously new here, Karolyn has shared the fact that, in the past, she considered herself to be a Christian. That can certainly be confirmed by how deftly she applies biblical scripture to suit or make her point. Therefore, the definition of heretic, that you so generously provided, fits her to a T!
            Altaica: Ok sure. I was defending myself actually. I apologize for misunderstanding the comment being directed at me.
            Jay: No, you, are assuming, that I am assuming that Christianity is the only accepted belief system and doctrine. Btw, your definition and understanding of religion, and religious terms, is nothing short of abysmal!
            Altaica: I apologize for the general assumption. When I see religion being used to validate whether a law is valid or not it makes me feel as though those individuals feel theirs is the only way. I don’t want to see my laws based on religion; I want to see them based on treating the populace equally and with fairness.
            Now, I feel I should ask you, are you a theologian? The impression I get here is that only theologians should be able to speak about religion. If this is the case then there really should be very little religious speak at all because I feel pretty certain that the vast majority of posters are not themselves theologians. I am a student of religion, and if I was afraid to put my thoughts and views out there how would I learn? Book knowledge only goes so far. I happen to have taken a fair number of courses on religion in addition to my own research and reading. I attended a Jesuit College. I am a Shaman in Training to an elder who happens to be a Theologian, and a Christian shaman. I am interested in understanding the different religions and consider them fascinating. I also find it interesting that many theologians are educated only in one religion. If I was a devout Christian and making these arguments, which I took out of the bible, would you say the same? I was a Christian for 20 years. If being raised Christian and studying the scriptures through years of Sunday Sermon, Sunday school and a devotion to singing the hymns and serving the church choir is not good enough to bring up points from what was learned there, well I guess lifetime experiences don’t mean a darn thing and a lot of people shouldn’t be talking. That’s the way it seems you are suggesting. At least it seems that way from your constant insults of my knowledge. If you are going to tell me I am wrong and my knowledge is abysmal the least you can do is tell me where in the bible it shows that I am wrong, what book and passage so I can read it. Constructive criticism please, not insults and condemnation.

            Jay: Happy making a fool of yourself!

            Altaica: Sure, I’m a fool. At least I’m willing to admit I don’t know everything and I am here to learn. So, since I can never truly know everything and I love learning I guess I will continue making a fool of myself. At least I’m having a good time doing it!

            It may be true that you can’t fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country.
            Will Durant

            If you wish to avoid seeing a fool you must first break your looking glass.
            Francois Rabelais

            But there comes a moment in everybody’s life when he must decide whether he’ll live among the human beings or not – a fool among fools or a fool alone.
            Thornton Wilder

            I don’t fool with a lot of things that I can’t have fun with. There’s not much reward in that.
            Levon Helm

            My imagination makes me human and makes me a fool; it gives me all the world and exiles me from it.
            Ursula K. Le Guin

            If I am fool, it is, at least, a doubting one; and I envy no one the certainty of his self-approved wisdom.
            George Byron

            Is there in all the history of human folly a greater fool than a clergymen in politics?
            Pat Robertson

            Self-pity comes so naturally to all of us. The most solid happiness can be shaken by the compassion of a fool.
            Andre Maurois

            When in doubt, make a fool of yourself. There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap.
            Cynthia Heimel

            The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself a fool.
            Anatole France

            “If one does not understand a person, one tends to regard him as a fool.”
            Carl Jung

            The fool who persists in his folly will become wise.
            William Blake

            No one ever found wisdom without also being a fool. Writers, alas, have to be fools in public, while the rest of the human race can cover its tracks.
            Erica Jong

            Humor is such a wonderful thing, helping you realize what a fool you are but how beautiful that is at the same time.
            Lynda Barry

            Many a man is praised for his reserve and so-called shyness when he is simply too proud to risk making a fool of himself.
            J. B. Priestley

            Ridicule is the first and last argument of a fool.
            Charles Simmons

            It is a fool’s prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak.
            Neil Gaiman

            You think I am a fool, but you are a greater fool than I am.
            Sitting Bull

        • CJM

          Then why do they insist on focusing on those sexual preferences? Is their greatness associated with their boudoir antics or from the BRAIN? If it is the boudoir, they deserve nothing; if it is from the BRAIN, then their preference need not be broadcasted in any way, shape, or form. Great men and women do not deliver all the delicate facts about their very private, personal lives…just blow-hard street homosexual/lesbians do that, and they aren’t worth writing about, let alone reading about.

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
          • http://?? Joe H.

            From one other not-so-famous gay!!!!! Coal miner!!!

          • Crystal

            Coal Miner, how do you know they were gay. Did they tell you. I looked a the list and historically there is no evidence that tells you they were homosexuals. That website is going to have to do better than just throwing some names out there.

            I have a good friend who is a teacher here in Southern California. They were teaching homosexuality in Ancient Greece to young children in school. The problem is they didn’t teach the whole story. Yes, part of Ancient Greece accepted homosexuality. The facts they left out is the majority of Ancient Greece did not. We went over it, and the school had to remove it because they didn’t want to tell the whole story. I live here. I have a son in school. I’ll fight every fact because parents still have the right to fight untrue facts being taught in public education. That’s true in every state.

        • JLC

          Karolyn — Your incessant ranting and raving brings to mind a quotation from Bertrand Russell: “One major problem with the world today is that the stupid are convinced that they cannot posibly be wrong, whereas the intelligent are fully aware that they CAN be wrong!”

          • Jay

            Hmm, I like that one JLC! Btw, Bertrand Russell was a homosexual and a staunch atheist! As well, he despised Christianity. However, his quote, considered in isolation, is a damn good one, and in regards to Karolyn, bulls eye!!!

          • Karolyn

            So you’re trying to tell me that your intelligent and recognize that you can be wrong?

          • Jay

            Karolyn, If you make an ass of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you.

      • Jay

        Rick, watch for the demand from the gay community to lower the legal age when one can be considered and adult! It will be an incremental process, it will eventually reach 10 and below. But first, indoctrinate and brainwash!!!

        • Karolyn

          HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! So funny!

        • Rick

          I agree to a point Jay. The handwriting is on the wall but I fear that before it gets to that point, Fraulein Hillary and her U.N. cohorts will have successfully implemented their “rights of the child” agenda which is actually the systematic implementation of denying all parents of their rights (and legal obligations) to raise their own children. Hence, we will see children being torn from their families similar to what Hitler did and then the real indoctrination will begin. When it comes to that point, I fear, all hope will be lost forever because now it will be on a global scale rather than by just one nation led by a homicidal psychopath with bad hair, a goofy mustache and schizophrenic ideas on what a perfect race is. The irony here is…all those who are pushing the LGBT lifestyle onto our youth will be the first ones deemed undesireable and expendable by the New World Order’s regime.

          • Jay

            Agreed, but in the mean time, and before they will be considered of little use and expandable, one can only fear the worst!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Jay,
          I’m afraid with Karolyn that brainwashing is gona be a light wash day!!!

    • Altaica

      JoeH:

      I have read it with my heart, it was my heart that told me first to look deeper. It was my heart that told me to take what is right with my heart with me and leave the religion. My heart saw first that the spirit of the teachings of love and understanding were not longer being carried through the religion. My heart said to find another path. I listened to my heart and mind. I opened myself to my spirit and found my center, my balance. I am whole on my path. I was no longer whole as a christian, but I am whole now. I did not throw the baby out with the bath water. I kept what worked, what sang to my heart and I found a melody that works with what I know and I have learned. I will continue to walk down this path and learn, I will take what resonates with me from the teachings of others from all religions and I will continue to develop the song of my soul that works best for me.

      We all have a different song to sing in our hearts and we all must be free to walk and follow those beats that resonate within.

  • JeffH

    It’s official, Brown signed the bill into law on July 14th. Now the real fight to protect our children will begin.

    Is this the future of American schools? It very well could be. It’s certainly the direction that Obama’s “Safe Schools Czar” Kevin Jennings is taking us.

    Bill SB48 does four main things:
    All schools in California must use materials, including textbooks, that include “the role and contributions” of homosexuals and transgenders “to the economic, political, and social development of California and the United States of America, with particular emphasis on portraying the role of these groups in contemporary society.”

    No school in California may sponsor any activity that “promotes a discriminatory bias” against homosexuality. (This essentially bans the Boy Scouts, traditional religious clubs, etc.)

    No textbooks or instructional materials in California schools may “reflect adversely” on homosexuality.

    All “alternative or charter schools” in California are hereby warned that they’d better adopt similar rules.

    Here’s the text of Bill SB48
    http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/11b/CA_bill_SB48/index.html
    This is what they want to replicate across America:

    • CJM

      Communists, homosexuals, lesbians–KISS MY GRITS–neither of you will tell me and mine what we shall teach our children. If I ever have to return to CA, you can better believe not one child of my family will attend your corrupt schools, and no damn governor is going to tell me what books I can have in my house. The children will have text books that are approved ELSEWHERE…if they need to know information about couples who are so focused on their lower parts of the body, they will be told in an age-appropriate manner and that most of them are that way by choice (we do recognize the scientific fact that, medically, there are some who are what they are because of a medical anomally). Am I politically correct? Not on your life…Political correctness is nothing more than a fancy way of LYING….and we just don’t do that.

      • Karolyn

        “if they need to know information about couples who are so focused on their lower parts of the body, ”

        They are not consumed with thinking about sex. It’s not all about sex! They are people who just want to live, love and have a good life just like everybody else. They do have long-term monogamous relationships that aren’t necessarily based on sex and do live without it just like heteros. Sex is not the be-all and end-all of their lives. They are human beings just like everybody else.

    • Jay

      Jeff, This is nothing more than state enforced indoctrination of a perverted religion, homosexuality.

      • JeffH

        Jay, Hear Hear! Having lived and been raised just 30 miles east of SF, where this whole thing started, I can tell you that it is an indoctrination through our public school system. I’ve had some “gay” aquaintances and probably some “gay” friends too. Not a problem, as long as they don’t force their lifestyle or beliefs at me I have no problems. I accept that some people born gay or whatever and I won’t judge them in any way until they try to force their homosexual agenda into my life…then it’s “Houston, we have a problem”, and this is exactly what is being done all in the name of “anti-bullying”…yeh, right…the better question is who is reall the bully here?

        When they, the progressive/communist/Marxist, want to force any of their issues onto the masses, they always twist it as an idea to improve “humanity”.

        It just don’t work anymore.

        • Jay

          Jeff, my Glock 23.40 S&W says this ain’t right!

          • JeffH

            My P226 Sig 9 and my Benelli’s agree.

          • Jay

            Hmm, sounds like you have a couple of trustworthy friends.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Jay & JeffH,
            My SCCY AMERICAN MADE 9MM and My Reck 22Derringer along with my 12 & 16 Guage shotguns all agree!!

          • JeffH

            JoeH, if memory serves me right, you purchased your SCCY 9mm late last year and the price was right also. How’s it holding up? I’ve read some very negative things about them, in particular about guide rods breaking, poor customer service and reliability issues.
            http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=336275

          • http://?? Joe H.

            JeffH,
            so far I’ve put about 750 rounds through it and had no problems at all! It does pull a tiny bit to the right but I can compensate for it! I DO keep it clean though. Never was one to keep a dirty weapon.

      • Altaica

        The GBTL is not a religion.

        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

        GBTL individuals follow many different religions. The movement as a whole does not follow any one religion. There is not a GBTL god or supernatural occurrence they venerate. GBTL is a group of like minded individuals that share similarities, sure, but they are not a religion.

        As for the perverted part, perversion is another word for corrupt. As a whole community I am sure they are not corrupt although I have no doubt that there are corrupt individuals within said community just as we have corrupt politicians, and corrupt priests. The vast majority of the society is not corrupt and in order to judge a society as corrupt you would need to have a majority. On the other hand, it is very easy to state that the American Government is corrupt because an overwhelming majority of our politicians seem to be in it for themselves and not the people they serve when passing laws and what not.

        If I were to go by your logic of a couple of people make for a perverted religion I could say that Christianity is a perverted religion based on the bad acts of a number of figures, including a many catholic priest that has gotten in trouble for child molestation.

        • Jay

          The catholic church has been infiltrated by communist/satanist’s. The infiltration that guaranteed total and complete take-over was timed with the signing of the Club of Rome in 1957! Since then, unspeakable satanic rituals and child molestations have occurred in secret. Not all cases have been disclosed, but just enough to ruin the reputation of the Catholic church, thus undermining and ruining the faith of many. For one of the communist most cherished goals is to eradicate Christianity from all public life, and ultimately, from the consciousness of mankind.

  • CJM

    Jerry Brown is as stupid as he looks….history books DO give recognition to those who have contributed to the development of nations, inventions, science, and all other subjects. What the history books don’t indicate is the gender preference of these people. According to this ignorant law, if the text book has to refer to gender preference, then they will also have to include heterosexual in the topic description of the individual. Jerry Brown has always had a screw loose and it is amazing that the citizens of CA re-elected him as governor a second time around. They should have known this was coming up the pike, so there are no excuses.

  • chuckb

    cjm, the state of cslifornia is now a minority state. trace the country of origin these people came from and you will now see the politics reflected in their voting. it doesn’t take a genius to figure out california is no longer what we consider a reflection of past american ideals. if we leave barry in the white house come 2012 and you want to live in a free country, better start looking outside the continental u.s. we have allowed the progressive liberal faction working with the media, they control, to destroy our way of life. it started in the fifties and they have reached the top. it’s no wonder barry and michelle live like royalty, they have been hand picked to run the show and truly think they are king and queen. just ask anyone from kenya.

    • CJM

      Which is why barry sotero needs to be ousted from the WH and very soon. Yes, I am aware that odummberbummber is bent on being our last elected president and first installed dictator…are you willing to allow that? I’m not. CA has really gone to the pits since I lived there….hope to never return. It will be a blessing when the big quake shakes them down.

      • Palin12

        ….or global warming.

  • James

    Christians who believe that homosexual acts are, biblically, capital offenses will never treat homosexuals as normal people. Changing our laws to accomodate their sins should in no way alter our history of how it used to be.

    • Altaica

      Christian law may see this as a sin, but our laws are not based on religion. The laws of a religion are irrelevant when making laws for all of America, or they should be. The laws should, ideally also be free of corruption. Unfortunately neither is true. There should be equality in the laws, and while religions are free to practice their beliefs they have no right in this country to remove the rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness from an individual or impose their religions laws on another citizen. In your religion it is a sin. In my country it is not. It is not a sin of my beliefs that if two consenting adults want to love each other that they do such. When making laws for a diverse country of diverse backgrounds and religions you must take religion out in order to keep some semblance of equality.

      • James

        Altaica, Prior to the Supreme Court decision (Lawrence v. Texas.) that held a Texas law, which criminalized homosexual acts, unconstitutional, all states had similar laws. Such laws were based upon the Bible, in fact, all of our criminal laws were adaptations of the sins of the Bible. That’s our history, I’m just saying, if children are to be taught about homosexuality, they should also be taught about our past history concerning it.

  • Palin12

    Why can’t homosexuals just be happy with who they are instead of sending “recruiters” out into the public and approaching impressionable young people with their “haven’t you ever been curious” lines? And why are they such chronic whiners and complainers in the workplace? The ones I worked with, everyday running to the supervisor’s office with so-and-so said this, so-and-so said that, waaa, waaa, waaa. Who wants to work with someone like that?

    • Jay

      Because homosexuals are in essence pedophiles! Why do you think they want to target a very young population. To accomplish two goals; 1.Indoctrinate them when they’re young 2.Enjoy them when they’re young. Watch for the demand to drop the legal age when one can be considered an adult. But first, indoctrinate and brainwash. Possible additives in prepared food and drink in school cafeteria?

      • CJM

        Sorry to burst your theory, Jay, but MOST pedophiles are heterosexual individuals…they have a penchant, however, of maintaining a sexual relationship with children. True enough, there are some pedophiles who are either homosexual, lesbian, or transgendered, but their numbers are fewer than those found in the so-called ‘straight’ world. The unusual thing I found among the pedophiles, regardless of preferences, is they usually say the same things: “I do it because I love them;” “I was teaching the child what love is about;” “It makes me a powerful person.” While the first two reasons are an expression of their form of love, it is the last that is most bothersome: being powerful–and this is possibly the closest to the truth as to why some folks prey on children. A predatory rapist always speaks of power over the victim..and I find that very frightening when one must consider the fact that these individuals will be released from prison sometime in the future. And by the way, I have not found pedophilia reduces itself from the natural aging process of man.

        • Rick

          CJM, lest we not forget also that most of them say (once they’re caught) is “I couldn’t help it, I was molested as a child”. And for someone (can’t remember which libretard said it) earlier in this blog who stated that it’s not true that pedophiles were molested as children themselves, I cannot disagree more. In all of my Criminal Justice courses as well as Psychology courses along with heaps of statistical data at all levels of law enforcement, corrections, behavioral science to name just a few, it has been well-documented and well-established already that most pedophiles were molested as children. Also, in regards to whether the LGBT lifestyle is a choice or those people are just “born that way” is concerned….even tho the narrow-minded, apparently uneducated and thoroughly misinformed libretards refuse to acknowledge it…the fact of the matter is the jury is still out on that one. There stills remains scientific data to say definitively which is true but there are numerous studies currently underway (as has been the case for years now) trying to determine if one is actually “predisposed” to that lifestyle at birth or not.

    • CJM

      As insecure, immature adults who more than likely tantrummed when they were children (and not corrected by the parent), they carry out these childish behaviors in the adult world. Haven’t you noticed that obama throws tantrums in public when congress tells him “NO”? Face it, we have morally corrupt, immature adults who were spoiled brats as a child that are now in the workforce. That’s why you have the incessant tattling that goes on and on; pity the supervisior who is require to listen to their every embellished detail of how they are being put upon by mean co-workers. On the other hand, I have worked with professionals who had other preferences and they were great to be around. None of the crap we see spewed from the so-called gay pride movement or the cloying tattletales you work with was ever present at our offices. Matter of fact, you didn’t really know they had a different preference unless they told you (privately). Did they live in a closet? Certainly not. One had a ‘roommate’ who brought his lunch most days of the week–he was very nice, polite, and not wishy-washy at all. They were accepted because they did not force their lifestyle onto everyone else; likewise, we did not castigate them for theirs and respected them for their humanness.

    • Altaica

      I have that here at my work, but it’s all women and not a single one homosexual running and whining over every little thing. Let’s avoid the stereotype and just understand that some people just are tattletales and whiners. CBJ has the right points there.

  • Raggs

    Karolyn must be working for Acorn…

    • Karolyn

      Now you’re really reaching, Raggs! :-)

      • CJM

        Well, Raggs may have a point, Karolyn. If you aren’t from ACORN, then why do you deliver the same spiel they do??????????

        • Karolyn

          Well, golly, CJM, I wasn’t aware that people had to belong to or work for a specific group to have similar views! I don’t really even know what ACORN is or does!

          • Jay

            How about Americorps Karolyn, does that ring a bell?

          • Karolyn

            It’s a JOB Jay! Not a lifestyle! Funny.

          • Palin12

            Hey Karolyn
            ACORN was the group that went around telling people in the ghetto “Missuh Obama goan make yo house payment if you vote for him”. They also registered a bunch of dead people in Chicago (all democrats of course) and signed up the entire Dallas Cowboys roster in Nevada. Now you remember ACORN?

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    It’s long been the goal of the Liberals and fellow Communist travelers to destroy America from within. A key factor has always been to corrupt and indoctrinate our children. Karolyn and millions like her are just useful idiots for this cause that has made right wrong and perversion normal. It will never stop until traditional American values and morals are destroyed. That is why my grandchildren go to private schools and I guarantee you that they won’t be pre-occupied with buggering each other.
    California is determined to turn that beautiful state into Sodom and Gommora. So be it; give them back to Mexico.

  • Raggs

    OK.. so everyone here has seen the move deliverance.

    Remember the scene with the dueling banjo’s and the little boy picking strings as he sat on a swing.

    He smiled real big ( rotten teeth included ) as long as the song was playing, but as soon as the song was over he turned his head away.

    We have a society of little boy’s and girls.
    The attention span of America is as long as “what is in it for me”?

    A Case in point.

    This is off topic a little but I feel as if my point will prevail.
    I live in the deep south always have and always will, anyway to show the point above… Not to gloat but I have been told by many that I am a very handsome man… Anyway… ( I had to mention that for the point ).
    I get a lot of stares from people both men and women, but at the point of me waving at another person or the one that stares at me the song ends.
    Back to the subject… People now feel as if they have to be different to be themselves… I’m apparently different and believe me I hate it…. So maybe when these kids grow out of their diapers they will find out life is not a box of chocolets…

  • Karolyn

    No law will ever change bigoted, self-righteous, holier-than-thou people into loving, caring, accepting individuals. It is an exercise in futility. Why are they bothering?

    • duped again

      Your first post was at 7:35 am and you have been the biggest blogger here. Since we are discussing a law that has already passed it cannot be a passion of yours to argue how good it would be to pass it. Just curious: how much are you paid to convince conservative people here that the law is so great for their children?

      • Karolyn

        For me it is not about the law. It is about the attitudes. I was not trying to convince anybody of anything, just always trying to maybe make a dent in people’s attitudes (though I really know it’s futile) and stand up for what I believe. Call me crazy. I just feel compelled to debate issues I am passionate about.

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          Karolyn:
          I know that it is asking a lot and would be an incredible leap of faith, but have you ever considered that many of these things that you are so passionate about are wrong, immoral, and destructive to society as a whole ?

          • Karolyn

            Gunner – I have as much faith in my beliefs as you do in yours. And you know what? That’s OK!! It’s OK for us to have opposite views. That’s what makes the world go ’round. Wouldn’t it be an awfully boring world if everyone thought the same? So you tell me the answer to your question.

          • http://gunner689 gunner689

            to answer Karolyn:
            yes I have evaluated my opinions and viewpoints, both emotionally, logically, and subjectively I have also done the same with your side of the coin. My conclusion is that your view points, while well-meaning, are delusional, destructive, and entirely emotionally driven with little basis on reality. I think they call that insanity.

        • Palin12

          Karolyn
          You sure have posted a lot here today. Are you heterophobic?

          • Karolyn

            HAHAHAHA! No, just a champion of the underdog all my life!

        • Rick

          OKAY THEN….YOU’RE CRAZY!!!

        • http://deleted Claire

          I am certainly glad my kids are adults because I sure as heck would pull them out of any school that taught LGBT issues. I sent my kids to school to learn the three “R’s” not this garbage. America is slowly but surely becoming one of the “dumber” nations when it comes to book learning. The “dumbing down of America” sure applies to this scenario. The issue of homosexuality should not be taught in schools. Whatever happened to history, math, english, science? Now they have dropped writing–does this mean handwriting will look like chicken scratches instead of penmanship? I can see why and how China and Japan exceeds America in book learning.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Claire,
            good to see you! hows you other half doing? We’re still keeping him in our prayers!!

          • http://deleted Claire

            JoeH–Bob is hanging in there. The heat hasn’t bothered him much–he is cold all the time. He wears a fleece jacket around the house and is comfortable. He loves to drive and he drove me to dog shows the past 3 weekends and he can take the heat better than I can. It was terribly hot at the dog show this past weekend–the shows were held outside. There were a couple of people that got sick–heat stroke. I did okay but I thought I would never get around the ring–I was sure hot. I am at home this weekend–time to regroup and get ready for the next show. I feel like a balloon with the air let out of it. Going to dog shows is like moving day. Everything is packed and organized when we start out, then when we get ready to go home, everything in thrown in the van and we get home as soon as we can. But it is fun, especially if my dogs win.
            I hope all is well with you and your family too. Good talking to you-have a great day.

        • Joyce from Loris

          And that is why you and I both will see, one day, that the liberals and the conservatives will come to war. Our views are so polar, and there is no changing your views, nor is there any changing my views. We will be enemies. When the conservative people finally stand up and yell “enough”, and quite handing our money over to people like you in the form of handouts (such as food stamps, welfare checks, free housing and pell grants), what in the hell are your kind going to do? How are you going to live? How is it that you are getting food stamps, yet you can afford the internet? We have had enough of handing out to people like you who can sit on a computer all day, tell us how wrong we are, while we go to work to support your worthless, good for absolutely nothing, opinion?

          • Karolyn

            Joyce – I’m not on food stamps, and nobody’s opinion is worthless. There’s somnething called respect that I have for you, but obviously you do not have for those who have opposing views. Why would you even consider war??? That would never even be a consideration for me and those who believe as I do. I’m a pacifist. Just goes to show who are the ones who start the wars!

          • Palin12

            Karolyn
            A brief history of US wars in 20th century:
            Woodrow Wilson, a democrat, got us into WWI.
            Franklin D. Roosevelt, a democrat, got us into WWII.
            Harry S Truman, a democrat, got us into Korea.
            Lyndon B. Johnson, a democrat, got us into Vietnam.

            Let’s take a look at Vietnam vs. Iraq.
            Vietnam death toll 58,000 Americans, mostly draftees.
            Iraq death toll 4,000 Americans, all volunteers.

            Now which is the party of war mongers?

          • Karolyn

            Pailin 12 – MEN!

          • Palin12

            Karolyn, you misogynist!

          • Karolyn

            No, Palin, it’s just the truth. In matriarchal societies, there is no rape or war. It is a male thing to fight. They are born that way, but it doesn’t mean they can’t change.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Palin12,
            Wrong,
            Eisenhower and Nixon got us into the Vietnam war.We inherit it from the French.Check it out.
            Palin12 says:

            “Karolyn
            A brief history of US wars in 20th century:
            Woodrow Wilson, a democrat, got us into WWI.
            Franklin D. Roosevelt, a democrat, got us into WWII.
            Harry S Truman, a democrat, got us into Korea.
            (Lyndon B. Johnson, a democrat, got us into Vietnam.)Wrong

            Let’s take a look at Vietnam vs. Iraq.
            Vietnam death toll 58,000 Americans, mostly draftees.
            Iraq death toll 4,000 Americans, all volunteers.

            Now which is the party of war mongers”

            The Vietnam War of 1964-1975: Although history puts America’s war in Vietnam in the “lose” column, the United States actually won every major conflict including the infamous Tet offensive. The demise of the United State’s presence and power in Vietnam was not due to losses on the battlefields but to the loss of support of the American public. The North Vietnamese were unified in their determination to win and America was not. For America it was a limited war and for the Vietnamese it was all out war in defending their homeland against American aggression. The Americans underestimated the resolve of the Vietnamese who had for hundreds of years already had been fighting off the Chinese, then the French and now the Americans. They were not about to give up. President Johnson could not put everything into the war because of the fear that the Chinese, which had also got involved with the Korean war would get involved, or even Russia. So it was a half way effort doomed to failure.
            In Vietnam it is called the American war. It was an immoral war that the intellectuals and newly enlightened young people of America just could not accept. The duped older generation that remembered the glory days of U.S action in WWII just could not accept the truth of what was really happening there. Calling the war a “police action” was just another lie to hide the fact that it was an illegal war as well as immoral. President Johnson escalated the conflict to a murderous campaign of American aggression with intense bombing of neighboring countries.

            Most people think that Richard Nixon got us out of Vietnam. The fact is that it was Nixon that got us into the war while Vice President under Dwight Eisenhower and it was the American people that got us out. If it was up to Nixon, he would have carried out his campaign of terror in Vietnam until he stepped out of office

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Coal miner,
            Once again you try to discuss something you know NOTHING about! Both the soviets AND the Chinese WERE involved in Viet Nam!! There were even soviet advisors captured there! Where do you think the AK47, the SKS, the Mig came from??? Where do you think Hanoi got all those air defense missiles?? Piece of advice: next time don’t open your mouth and prove you know NOTHING!!!

          • Palin12

            wrong coal miner
            Eisenhower only had miltary advisors in Vietnam. JFK had a presidential order on his desk to leave. 4 days after he was assassinated, LBJ rescinded the order with an order of his own. The bombing and the napalming all started under LBJ. Each year he tripled the forces in Nam. By the way, don’t forget the democratic comvention in Chicago 1968 when, under huge protest from people who wanted Eugene McCarthy, the party machinery gave you Hubert Humphrey another war hawk.

          • Palin12

            Joyce
            I agree with you 100%. In fact, they should spay/neuter all welfare bums, drug test them monthly, and they should forfeit the right to vote.

          • http://gunner689 gunner689

            It would be a short war since liberals don’t own or know how to use firearms, don’t serve in the military,and claim they abhor violence (unless it’s against an unborn child.) Libs would be like ducks in a shooting gallery.

  • jopa

    Jay; I think Jeffh is giving you a line of crap about the guns he owns.I believe it was DanAZ laughed at Jeff when he said he had an 8mm and ever since he has come up with every pistola imaginable in his arsenal that it would make Dirty Harry blush.He just doesn’t talk the talk just a bunch of copy and paste articles and no intimate knowledge on the subject.

    • JeffH

      jopa, can’t help but laugh at your lack knowledge and attention to detail. Then again, it doesn’t surprise me either. Your attention to detail is much like eyes…all talk, poor memory.

      8mm? ROFLMAO! If you knew anything about firearms you’d know that there are no modern 8mm handguns.

      Anytime you want to test firearm knowledge look me up, I’m not hard to find.

      • http://deleted Claire

        JeffH–I was looking for you—Didn’t win with Vinnie this past weekend. He took Reserve to to the winners dog on Friday- and 2nd in his class on Saturday and Sunday. It was disapointing but thats the way it goes. Next is Waukesha at the end of the month. He is halfway towards his championship. Sure hope he wins.
        My son’s pup won his class both days in the Puppy Sweeps. He sure is a cutie.
        The shows were held outside this past weekend and it was hotter than hades. Egads, it was hot running around the ring.
        I see all is alive and well on PLD.

        • JeffH

          Claire, that’s awesome. Congratulations to you and Tim(TOM?), you both must be really proud. Reserve champion isn’t bad at all. I’m so happy for you and I’m sure you’re chompin at the bit to get that first “Best of Show” and you will. It’s always great to hear from you.
          Again, congratulations. :)

          • http://deleted Claire

            JeffH–It is “Tim’s” pup. Thanks for the congrats. Good to talk to you again. I have been busy with the dogs–my new little girl is a doll. She is my Tanner’s daughter. She is dark and sweet as she can be. With all these dogs it keeps me going. I have to “catch up” with the news of the world–The past 3 weekends have been hectic. Hope all is well with you.

          • JeffH

            Claire, all is well. Been shooting a lot of trap and skeet and staying busy. I can just imagine the pride in your step with the “kids” doing so well. Hope the hubby is doing well and we’ll chat soon. Always enjoy hearing from you.

        • Palin12

          Claire
          Are you still doing the Happy Dance for Blogojevich’s upcoming sentencing hearing? Supposed to be the first week of August. Can’t wait to see his new bracelets, er…handcuffs!

          • http://deleted Claire

            Palin12–You bet I am doing the Happy Dance. That little creep should be in jail right now making license plates. Sure hope he gets put away for several years. I feel bad for his kids but he should have thought of them instead of his greedy self.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      Johnson and Kennedy war.I forgot the author.

      Source latter rain.

  • http://comcast greg

    Welcome to Commiefornia

  • Alexis

    Personally, I am opposed to indoctrinating children with gender issues in the public schools as the job of the schools is to equip young people with the essential tools to read, write, perform math skills, learn history, geography and above all learn to think. With that being said, I don’t think that children should be denied knowledge that they themselves seek to discover.

    I am a very conservative, independen, successful self-made woman who happened to be born intersexed. Due to a conditon of birth,I am unable to have children or have a successful relationship with another. That means at age 55, I have always been and always will be alone. I also recognize that I am an oddity of nature by happenstance of biology, certainly not by choice. My life has always been difficult but it’s been full in that I have been able to make contributions to others who have needed and wanted my help in countless areas.

    As I have read many comments on this topic I am shocked by the amount of ignorance in contemporary America. No wonder this country is going down the drain. I am convinced that most Americans cannot think for themselves. They tend to follow other people and other people’s ideas like sheep. They rarely think on their own. It’s amazing that we’ve been able to accomplish as much as we have done as a society with all the blockheads out there in the real world.

    Due to my own situation, I’ve spent literally thousands of hours learning about human biology, gender and human development. Karolyn is much more correct than others on this topic. My hat goes off to her. Biology is a very complex subject especially how it relates to the development of all of the Creator’s creatures, including humans.
    I am uniquely qualified to comment on this topic as I live in it daily.

    Nature induces a certain amount of variety among living things. For example, there’s no 100% male person or 100% female. The same with animals. After all, we are all products of both male and female parents. There are several areas of potential gender variance including: 1. What we recognize what we are in terms gender identity (what we are mentally and spiritually independent of our physical bodies), 2. Gender preference (natural attraction) and 3. Physical gender. My study indicates that all these things are set before birth via natal hormones in mother during the first trimester of pregnancy and possibly influenced somewhat by genetic factors.

    Have you ever wondered why most male and female animals seek each other? No one taught them anything. It’s completely natural to them. It is programmed into their minds through the complex mechanism of biological development. The same way with human beings. There’s no “choice” involved as it is pre-programmed into living beings to procreate and to perpetuate the species. Gender and biological variences occur due to developmental factors that are becoming better understood through time.

    For example:

    In a developing child, a baby is connected to the mother sharing not only her blood and nurishment but hormones. Should a mother become emotionally upset, or is under great stress, her endocrine system can get out of balance and generate additional estrogen. The mother’s hormones can overwhelm the developing fetus’ own endocrine system by displacing the main male hormone testosterone from the baby. Without sufficient testosterone in early stages, the fetus’ brain cannot develop properly as a male. The child may be born physically appearing to be male, but with a female mind. This is thought how a transsexual child comes into being. It is a genuine birth anomaly. CAT scans and autopsies seem to bear this out as male and female brains are in fact different! Some physical structures are different between the brain hemispheres and overall wiring. This may account why men and women think and act differently, perform tasks differently, have different likes, dislikes, etc.

    The development of hormosexual babies seem to follow along the same lines except there are many more of them in the population than the transsexual. Perhaps it is a matter of degree of pre-natal hormone mix that helps set the mental differences for physical attraction, etc.

    If the baby’s brain is provided with the proper balance of hormones by itself and the mother, the child is born normally both physically and mentally. It’s all about chemistry!

    Homosexual and transsexuals typically possess much higher IQs than those in the normal population. Many have genius levels over 140. This is thought to be a result of different brain wiring.

    So when you start examining the background of gender variant people, it is easy to understand that it is all related to human development outside of the control of the person themselves. Discriminating against gender variant people is similar to discrimination against someone with a club foot or malformed limb. It’s a birth anomaly, nothing more!

    A main reason why behavior plays into this topic so well is that religion and social mores influence all of human society. The concept of sin is a powerful one to the religious person as they are influenced that way from early childhood. Many people tend to look at life in black and white, right versus wrong terms. This is a social construct, not one found in nature. Nature embraces variety. Humans embrace conformity to social norms. Anything that ordinary people cannot relate to or understand they fear. This is a normal reaction, but with knowledge and understanding this fear can be effectively managed and lessened.

    I laugh when I hear people use terms such as right versus wrong in terms of gender variance. This again has been influenced by religion. If a Creator or creative force created everything and everyone in this world, their likes and dislikes, how can attraction for any human being eminating from genuine love be wrong? It’s purely natural for every individual. I’m sorry that I could not partake in any intimacy at all due to an accident of birth.

    Please allow me to comment on religion. This is just my opinion based on my life experiences, intense study and intuition. Religion is an entirely man-made concept that has little basis in fact. I was reared Christian but most of my close friends are Jewish. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m a diest by definition. I follow reason and logic to form my world view, not superstitions. Jesus may in fact be who he said he was. But I will never know for sure. What I can say is that after one studies the background of the Bible and other so-called Holy books, how they came into being, one comes to the conclusion that it is all nonsense. None of these books were written or influenced by the Creator as it makes no sense at all. Just think of a being or beings that could imagine, design and create everything in the world around us. Could he, she, they or them come up with a more poorly written document filled with contradictions, barbarism, violence and unnecessary suffering and death? What being would kill the first born of Eqypt for the transgressions of Pharoah? The killing or harming of innocents is abhorent to all human beings, especially babies! This can never be condoned. The Bible is filled with superstitions and notions of so-called original sin. Logically, one is only responsible for his own actions not the deeds of another.

    The concept of everlasting hell is designed to create fear in the minds of people forcing them to comply with the dictates of the clergy, which in many nations was parallel to civil government. This idea is the creation of man, not God.

    Let’s look at something in perspective. We are by definition imperfect human beings. As imperfect as we are, we do have a sense of proportionality and justice. The idea of eternal punishment in hell for wrongdoing is in itself wrong and is abhorrant to anyone with a soul. We would never subject another to such a horrible fate, so why would we expect less of our Creator?

    When people discriminate against those who are different than themselves they often unknowingly carry with them the false notions and ideas given to them through religious indoctrination rather than using their own minds to think for themselves.

    To many of us, the gift of reason and independent thought are perhaps some of our greatest gifts. Once a person disposes of religious, man-made dogma and begins to think for himself in a spiritual sense, only then does one become truly free.

    • Altaica

      Alexis:
      Thank you for your enlightening information. I learned a few things from your perspective.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      Alexis,

      Very well said.Thank you for you knowledge and wisdom.

    • Crystal

      I’m sorry for your condition, but these are other people’s children. The LGBT community should not be able to legislate away parental rights.

    • Karolyn

      Thank you so much Alexis. Much of what you wrote reminds me of a book I recently read by James Taylor, entitled “The Assumptions.”

  • 403 Forbidden

    What we have here is a tug-of-war to decide who gets to indoctrinate children in so-called ‘public’ schools. Abolishing coercively-funded education would solve that problem. The framers of the Constitution didn’t go to ‘public’ schools, and they turned out all right.

    I’m neither liberal nor conservative, but living and working in San Francisco for 8 years was the best education on this topic I could have hoped for. And if you knew me personally, you’d know that I make my own observations and don’t take anyone’s word for anything. It’s really true that in SF your hairdresser might be straight and your plumber might be gay…and your tax preparer might be lesbian. What a relief to get back to worrying about the important things like getting a decent haircut, stopping the leak under your sink, and staying out of Leavenworth. :-)

    Lesson #1: You can’t tell who’s gay, especially if they don’t want you to. I got to know a lot of great people (and some jerks, too, of course) before I found out they were gay. I also assumed that other people I knew were gay because they looked or acted ‘gay’ before meeting their wives or husbands and half-a-dozen children. It’s even hard for gay people to know for certain who’s gay.

    Lesson #2 (Memo to Larry Craig): Gay/straight is not a light switch; they are not mutually exclusive and you can’t flick them on or off at will. Kinsey was onto something, but I think everyone can be scored 0-5 for opposite sex attraction and another 0-5 for same-sex attraction. People are 0/0, 5/5, and every variation in between.

    I can’t count how many men in their 40s and 50s I knew in SF who had raised families before they realized they needed to start life over, and I would estimate that a higher percentage of divorced gay men had good relationships with their exes and children than divorced straight men. Full disclosure: my father didn’t keep Playboys in his underwear drawer to impress anyone, but when he finally ‘came out’ at the age of 75, no one was surprised. He stayed married to my mother all his life and was no more miserable than the straight men I’ve known who did the same. Also, it’s not an inherited trait: as far as I know, I’m no more than 2% homo.

    Lesson #3: Gay people are no more interested in ‘recruiting’ others than you are in seducing someone who is totally not into you: it’s a lot of extra work and, frankly, risk: coming on to the wrong person can still ruin your career or get you beaten up. Thirty years ago, I was not the Caliban I am now, and occasionally a man would attempt to ‘chat me up’. When I thanked him for his interest but said I wasn’t gay, to a man they all politely withdrew. When I got married and started wearing a wedding ring, nobody approached me any more. I didn’t miss it, but it was flattering in a weird way for someone to approach me for a change instead of being stiff-armed by most of the straight women I was interested in.

    If you want to teach your kids that gay people choose to give their souls to Satan and spend their lives trying to pull others down to hell with them, that is your right; the only problem with that approach is that some of your kids are gay and it will ********** them up REAL good. If you want to teach your kids that every LGBT person is brilliant and beautiful and deserves protection from us evil breeders, don’t be surprised if your straight children end up stereotyping and hating gay people anyway – but that is also your right.

    If the mistakes of history are any lesson, tolerance for others and not dwelling on differences makes for the most peaceful and prosperous societies…but don’t expect any institution founded and maintained by force (e.g., government schools) to teach genuine tolerance. REAL tolerance doesn’t get anyone re-elected and doesn’t get anyone’s agency more power and a larger budget. Dividing people and setting them against each other is how you conquer them and steal their lives, liberties and happiness while they’re fighting among themselves. Unfortunately, we humans are often as gullible and susceptible to that strategy as we can be treacherous and indifferent to each other. Damn, did I say something idealistic again? Wash my mouth out with soap!

    • Altaica

      430 Forbidden,

      You have a lot of good insight, and you’re right. There is a lack of true tolerance. If we had that then the states would be like Shangrila.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      403 Forbidden and Altaica ,

      I totally agree.

  • Crystal

    California is already number 47 in education. This will certainly make them 50.

  • Crystal

    So what part of the curriculum will be done away with in order to put this in? They’ve removed handwriting, big chunks of science, essay writing was removed to allow for Spanish speaking students in the classroom. This is by far the most riduculous thing this state has done and they do it under the cloak of anti-bullying. Bullying will go on as long as people still exist on this planet.

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    Altaica,
    This should be a interest to you.

    Non-Africans Are Part Neanderthal, Genetic Research Shows
    ScienceDaily (July 18, 2011) — Some of the human X chromosome originates from Neanderthals and is found exclusively in people outside Africa, according to an international team of researchers led by Damian Labuda of the Department of Pediatrics at the University of Montreal and the CHU Sainte-Justine Research Center. The research was published in the July issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.

    Anthropology
    Evolution
    Neandertal interaction with Cro-Magnons
    The evolution of human intelligence
    Multiregional hypothesis
    Recent single-origin hypothesis
    “This confirms recent findings suggesting that the two populations interbred,” says Dr. Labuda. His team places the timing of such intimate contacts and/or family ties early on, probably at the crossroads of the Middle East.

    Neanderthals, whose ancestors left Africa about 400,000 to 800,000 years ago, evolved in what is now mainly France, Spain, Germany and Russia, and are thought to have lived until about 30,000 years ago. Meanwhile, early modern humans left Africa about 80,000 to 50,000 years ago. The question on everyone’s mind has always been whether the physically stronger Neanderthals, who possessed the gene for language and may have played the flute, were a separate species or could have interbred with modern humans. The answer is yes, the two lived in close association.

    “In addition, because our methods were totally independent of Neanderthal material, we can also conclude that previous results were not influenced by contaminating artifacts,” adds Dr. Labuda.

    Dr. Labuda and his team almost a decade ago had identified a piece of DNA (called a haplotype) in the human X chromosome that seemed different and whose origins they questioned. When the Neanderthal genome was sequenced in 2010, they quickly compared 6000 chromosomes from all parts of the world to the Neanderthal haplotype. The Neanderthal sequence was present in peoples across all continents, except for sub-Saharan Africa, and including Australia.

    “There is little doubt that this haplotype is present because of mating with our ancestors and Neanderthals. This is a very nice result, and further analysis may help determine more details,” says Dr. Nick Patterson, of the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard University, a major researcher in human ancestry who was not involved in this study.

    “Dr. Labuda and his colleagues were the first to identify a genetic variation in non-Africans that was likely to have come from an archaic population. This was done entirely without the Neanderthal genome sequence, but in light of the Neanderthal sequence, it is now clear that they were absolutely right!” adds Dr. David Reich, a Harvard Medical School geneticist, one of the principal researchers in the Neanderthal genome project.

    So, speculates Dr. Labuda, did these exchanges contribute to our success across the world? “Variability is very important for long-term survival of a species,” says Dr. Labuda. “Every addition to the genome can be enriching.” An interesting match, indeed.

    The study was supported by grants from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research.

    • Crystal

      You really are reaching. The fact still remains, the children are not the responsibility nor the offspring of the LGBT community.

    • Altaica

      One of the more recent Nat Geo articles discussed this as well. It is all very interesting. :)

    • Jay

      Copy and paste, copy and paste, when in doubt don’t hesitate, just copy and paste, just copy and paste….!

    • Jay

      Hey coal, would it be possible for you to paraphrase the article you copied and pasted?

  • Jay

    Altaica:Let’s clear up something right now, not everyone is Christian and believes in your views. Members of the GBTL are still people. They are equal in the eyes of the law and each one should be treated as an individual just as each person posting here should be such. Generalizations are how wars are started, which as a historical fact, more wars have started over religion then any other topic, and a disproportionate amount were started by Christians.

    Let’s be clear, loose lips. I’m well aware that not everyone is a Christian and believes in my views. Members of the GBTL may look like people, but in my opinion, are nothing more than religious fanatics in liberal gay garb, hell-bent on converting the young and impressionable. This hideously overt, state sponsored, and state enforced proselytizing is indicative and characteristic of religious fanatics! Btw, where did you learn your idiotic history on the reason’s for the cause of wars, from your atheistic/communist/leninist, drooling, and senile professor? If you had any where-with-all, you would have said that all wars are the result of human nature, not religion, dumbbell. If memory serves, Stalin was not religious, in fact, he did his best to eradicate religion. Mao Ze Dong was certainly not religious, Iddi Amin, Hitler, should I go on? So much for your dimwitted theory!

    • Altaica

      Jay: Let’s be clear, loose lips. I’m well aware that not everyone is a Christian and believes in my views. Members of the GBTL may look like people, but in my opinion, are nothing more than religious fanatics in liberal gay garb, hell-bent on converting the young and impressionable. This hideously overt, state sponsored, and state enforced proselytizing is indicative and characteristic of religious fanatics!

      Altaica: Jay, are you capable of debate without constantly insulting your opponent? Are you a professional politician because there’s an awful lot of mud flying?

      Homosexuality is not a religion, and most are not trying to convert anyone. (You can’t convert anyone to a sexual preference if they are not already predisposed to those options and just scared to come out anyway.) They just want to be recognized as people with the same rights and privileges of anyone else in our country. Fanaticism is not solely for religion. If you want to do with away with fanatics, then let’s go across the board. The world could do without people rioting because their sports team lost. There are some political fanatics out there too…oh and I am sure there are some rich people we can call money fanatics.

      Jay: Btw, where did you learn your idiotic history on the reason’s for the cause of wars, from your atheistic/communist/leninist, drooling, and senile professor? If you had any where-with-all, you would have said that all wars are the result of human nature, not religion, dumbbell. If memory serves, Stalin was not religious, in fact, he did his best to eradicate religion. Mao Ze Dong was certainly not religious, Iddi Amin, Hitler, should I go on? So much for your dimwitted theory!

      Altaica: Boy, you sure do like to insult anyone who doesn’t agree with your opinion. Either you really hate yourself or you don’t love your neighbor as thyself. Are you actually Christian?

      Firstly, I didn’t say all, I said most. There is a big difference. Even a lot of expansionist wars are based on a country’s belief that they have the right to the land because their god says so. Manifest Destiny and all that. I’ll give you that nature does play an important part in wars. Territory disputes and killing of others is common in the animal kingdom. Chimps and meerkats do it all the time. It’s a sad part of our animal instincts to try and beat down someone different then ourselves.

      As for where I learned things, It’s called history books, it’s called honors history and college history. I highly doubt my teachers were all as you say an “atheistic/communist/leninist, drooling, and senile professor?” First off my public education was taught in small town USA, where nearly everyone in the town was some form of Christian. We were actually ranked pretty high at the time for education. Second I’m originally from conservative, republican Connecticut and grew up with very conservative, republican grandparents in an old fashioned extended family. My grandfather fought in WWII and I have listened to a great number of his first hand accounts. In addition to this I have also listened to the first hand accounts of many other senior citizens for research for my honors curriculum reports and also when I was volunteering my time in the local retirement home as a member of my church. My history lessons were further correlated at the Jesuit University I attended.

      I’m sorry you can’t face the fact, but most wars have been fought over religion. You can’t just count the major wars, there are plenty of other wars. Sheesh, the book am reading now, “Encyclopedia of Heresies and Heretics” clearly demonstrates this point with the sheer number of crusades started by the catholic church.

      Hitler was most definitely religious. He was baptised Roman-Catholic and publicly stated he was such. He did plan to destroy it as well, however for a pagan religion, but he was indeed religious of some sort. As for Iddi Amin, I did some research and turns out he is Muslim, not atheist as you claim. Stalin and Mao were both atheist, but since a big part of their agendas were to eradicate religion this could be considered by some as a religious war, only these wars targeted religion for elimination.

      The way you talk it seems to me like you had a one sided education rather then a well rounded one that taught you history with all the facts. Your vehemence seems to indicate you are quite fanatical in your beliefs as well.

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    Hitler was right in his attempt to eradicate homos and other perverts.

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