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Busted For Being Christian

September 23, 2011 by  

Busted For Being Christian

America is the land of the free, a country founded on religious freedom and the 1st Amendment. Its earliest immigrants came here to escape religious persecution.

Unfortunately, freedom of religion no longer applies. It’s being turned on its head and into freedom from religion. Like in California, where holding “a regular gathering of more than three people” is a crime in San Juan Capistrano, especially if that regular meeting involves studying the Bible.

Chuck and Stephanie Fromm were fined $300 and ordered to stop holding a regular Bible study at their home. The meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering, they were told. They also face additional charges of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to the Pacific Justice Institute, which is representing the couple in a legal fight to get the city’s decision overturned.

Neighbors say the gatherings at the Fromm’s residence haven’t caused problems, but city officials apparently disagree. They have determined Bible studies differ from other regular gatherings, like say Tupperware® or NFL Monday Night Football parties.

The irony that San Juan Capistrano was founded as a Catholic mission is lost on the elected elites in that city. So they crack down, even though none of the participants are bothering anyone or are out proselytizing others in the neighborhood. They aren’t “forcing their religion” on anyone who doesn’t want to be there, which seems to be a great fear of the anti-Christian despots who bring this subject up in all religious discussions.

It was just over a year ago that San Diego County was after a Christian couple for holding a regular Bible study. A media firestorm led to a reversal of San Diego’s religious persecution.

Christianity is becoming less of an accepted religion around the world. The United States is no exception, and the Bill of Rights is succumbing to tyranny at all levels of government.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Bill wright

    BEfore forming a opinion about anythimg ,aperson should have all the facts, not just a lots of distruths .The story here does not say how many times this couple was warn before they were fined,nor does it say they hadn’t read any of the cities Ordinances Before they began thier bible studies.Nor does this report say what kind of people they were.If you want people to comment on these Issues,Give us all the facts.And by the way Christianity is still yet Very strong in this country.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Bob L. gave you the facts. You just didn’t like them.
      The family was holding a Bible study. How difficult is that to understand? Someone, that doesn’t like the Bible meeting the family holds,turned them in to someone that equally dislikes anyone who studies the Bible.

      • Ray Gillespie

        If they studied the Bible (honestly) they
        would not believe it. The most bloody
        killing book that I have ever read.
        and at best they will only follow about
        fifty percent of it.

        • TrvlSEA

          Then you haven’t honestly studied it if you think that. If you are interested, I recommend the Rainbow Study Bible, it gives an overview of each “book” of which most are actually letters, of the bible so you have an idea of who wrote it, when and what was going on at the time. Context is important. Knowing the difference between history and the lessons of Jesus’s teaching are two difference things.

          Knowing the context and people involved allows you to study further and then come to educated conclusions.

          • TrvlSEA

            different things… clearly not enough coffee yet this morning.

          • Hendrik

            To those who criticize Christianity and the Bible, let’s quote Albert Einstein:
            “Condemnation without *investigation, is the height of ignorance”
            *to which I would add THOROUGH

        • 45caliber

          If this is the worst book you ever read (and I doubt that you read it through) then you certainly don’t read very much do you. Try reading it with your eyes and mind open. You might learn something. And from the sound of it, you do need to learn something.

          • Christin


            One can only understand the ‘Word of God’ in the Holy Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit… so in conclusion, Ray is not filled with the Spirit and Love of Jesus, the Christ, Son of the Lord God Almighty… thus his hate filled interpretation. But I believe you are right, he has probably not read and studied it all.

            And by the way, Ray, ‘mankind’ is full of sin and if we were to write only the History of mankind throughout the ages… it, too, would be FULL of blood and killings… wars, battles, murders, rapes, Holocaust, shootings, rampages, bar fights, car accidents, Christian & Muslim & gang be-headings, backroom brawls, atomic bombs, bombings, 9/11… get the picture!

            And the worst is yet to come… hold on to Jesus!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            I put ray G. on the same level as a brainless troll!! you notice that after he was faced down, he didn’t return??

        • FreedomFighter

          The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles.
          Ayn Rand (1905 – 1982), Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 1966

          Laus Deo
          Semper Fi

        • Bob from SoCal

          It’s apparent to me that you have not made an “honest” attempt at studying the most important book that mankind has ever received. This is not a book of killing, but if you truly understand its meaning you would know that it is a love story. It tells of a God that so loves you that he became a man and died for you. If you understood this book, you would know that it was given to us from a being that is outside of our ability to completely comprehend, outside of our space and time domain. This book will rescue you from a path that will send you to an eternity of suffering. You my friend need to take a closer look, and truly take an honest look for yourself, and don’t believe everything that this world tells you. Find out for yourself, its your eternity riding on the line.

          • Tim Orner

            To continue on the thoughts of “Bob from SoCal” The Bible is unique amongst all literature, because its the only book ever written that was not written by man, but by GOD himself. IITimothy 3-16: ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I always find it interesting how easy and arrogent it is for some people to dismiss the only book ever written that has the ONLY solution to mans main delemma, which is his eternal soul. I can also know with certanty that if those who disput the writter as being GOD himself are calling GOD a lier. I feel VERY sorry for those when they stand before GOD at the judgement, will have their eyes opened for the first time, when it is revealed that the Bible is the owners manual for the human being and they could only go back to the time when they read this comment and could have chosen to receive the ONLY way to an eternal life with the Creator. John 3-16: For GOD so loved the world, that he gave his only Begotten SON, that who-so-ever believeth in me, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

          • Karolyn

            Tim – What of the scribes who translated the original Greek? Translation of many Greek words is vry difficult. Meaning can be changed with vey little variation. What of the changes made by the Church? What of the pieces they left out (Gnostic Gospels) for fear the people could not be controlled should they heed them? How do you know how much was altered to suit the powers that be? There is a great deal no one knows and will never know about the Bible.

          • Tim Orner

            Karolyn, You have fallen into the Satanic trap of calling GOD a lier. Do you honestly believe that man is more powerful than GOD? Is GOD powerless to make sure that his Word would be preserved. I would encourage you to look sincerely at the history of the “King James Version of the Bible. It is the Bible interpretation that GOD preserved. Yes it is true that GOD has “allowed” man to create various versions of Scripture, and all of them are wrong in some ways, but PLEASE be careful, GOD is NOT subject to man, man is subject to GOD and will answer to him one day.

          • Judy

            Perfectly said, Bob. Sorry about the comment about California but they sure seem to outnumber you there & the worst of the anti-Judeo/Christian seems to start there, especially the celebrities who have WAY TOO MUCH influence on our society today. May God Bless you for sticking with the Lord & defending him & his word. I let myself get too upset over today’s situation in this country. My minister calls me passionate, I fear at times it is just plain anger & I must fight it but at least I don’t fight it alone.

          • john

            What in the world did Karolyn say that could be construed as calling GOD a liar? You need to reread her statement and then apologize.

        • Pathfinder0100

          Ray try reading the Koran.

        • C Colin

          Ray, you are correct about many killings due to religious beliefs. History shows most of the killings came from Christians more specifically Catholics, guided throughout history by the popes. You are wrong though about not being able to follow the bible. The House Of Yahweh teaches and follow all 613 Laws of Peace.

        • Joe_

          Ray, pardon me, but that is absurd. In the twentieth century, while we were beginning to tell ourselves that the Bible has no relevance in life, more people were slaughtered than in ever preceding century combined. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot. People often attribute Christianity and the Bible to wholesale slaughter but not one of these men was a Christian. An honest study of the Bible, even if it does not reveal God to you because you don’t want the revelation, will reveal to you one thing from which you cannot escape: Yourself.

          • C Colin

            Joe, Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin and many others were in fact catholic, so that makes them christian. All of these men were in fact of Hebrew descendants too. The christian religion came from the catholics under the council of Nicea 325 ace, under Constantine the emperor and pope. The catholics moved to Rome from israel, there they were known as pharasees. Read about Saul the disciple he was a pharasee and a Roman citizen who took orders to kill from the high priest, who were over the Roman soldiers. Get it! The truth at The House of Yahweh.

          • C Colin

            Joe, Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin and many others were in fact catholic, so that makes them christian. All of these men were in fact of Hebrew descendants too. The catholics moved to Rome from israel, there they were known as pharasees. Read about Saul the disciple he was a pharasee and a Roman citizen who took orders to kill from the high priest, who were over the Roman soldiers. Get it! The truth at The House of Yahweh.

          • Jana

            Just because they called themselves Catholics, doesn’t make them true Christians.
            Many of our mobsters of today think nothing of calling for someone’s murder, then going to “church” and donating money to supposedly cleanse their sins. They even delve into prostitution and drugs and call themselves Catholics/Christians.
            It is odd how people will watch things in the movies or on TV that are really gory, but call the Bible a “bloody killing book”.

            Ezek 12:2
            Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

          • Kate8

            You are so right, Jana. Not only Catholics, but many who identify themselves as Christians wouldn’t know the first thing about what Yeshua taught because it was never important to them. It’s like saying one is American. It doesn’t really mean anything other than what one was born into.

            All of those mentioned were practitioners of the occult. If what is now being revealed is true, then occult has also infiltrated the Vatican. Being Christian is not about a label. It’s about a relationship. We may be able to fool some men, but we can never fool God.

          • Christin

            Jana and Kate8,
            You are right… Many call themselves ‘Christian’, but it is not about a ‘label’, but about a ‘Relationship’ an individual has with the Lord, and trusting in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and submitting to the Will of God.

            “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers?”
            Matthew 7:21 and 23

            “It is better to take refuge in the Lord, than to trust in man.”
            Psalms 118:8 [This is the very Middle of the Bible]

            There is POWER in a Relationship with the Lord God Almighty… that is what ‘they’ wish to destroy in the People.

          • Jana

            Christin and Kate8,

        • Ralph R.

          Read the bible Ray,it sounds like you haven’t read it yet, you try to
          mix it up to your liking,try to read the last chapter “Revelations,”
          we are close to the end times as we know it,the black horse is obummer
          our first black president,it explains it in the last book (Revelations)
          now we are even closer to the end they want to mix islam with the”Chris-
          tians,so it will look like this: “Chrislam”this is bad for all who are
          Christians,TBN has accepted it,watch the changing of America on a good
          Christian channel,like Pastor Jack Van Impe,he tells the truth that’s
          why he isn’t with the TBN channel anymore,watch Pastor Hagee,he explains where we are and what stage we are in,in real life,obummer wants to be the tyrant here in america,while his friends are helping to get rid of who they think are against islam (the muslim brotherhood)are taking out Syria,Lybia,Egypt and other arab countries,
          like Saudi Arabia,they think are last to fall.

        • bp

          Ray: That’s not the point. Just as you have the freedom of speech to share your opinion, they have the right to assembly & right to worship. It is a sad day in the U.S.A. when we allow mosques to be built but a home Bible study! Pray, pray, pray!!!!!

          • bp

            correction: a home Bible study is fined & under scrutiny!

        • Ranchman

          Hey Ray G. I guess, with your thinking the Bible is the most violent book ever written, that you haven’t happened to read the muslim koran, have you? Wow, the muslim’s koran calls for muslims today, yes today, to cut off non-muslims heads and all kinds of other despicable acts. And the concerning part is, today’s muslims are acting out according to the koran, their holy book. And they’re acting just like the founder of their muslim faith, muhammed, who was a filthy, murdering, pedophile who reveled in the blood of his thousands of victims. No, Ray, the Bible is NOT the most violent, blood soaked booked ever written. Not by a long shot. The muslim koran beats it hands down.

      • http://PersonalLiberty seenenuff

        I would like to know just how the authorities found out there was a Bible Study going on in that house.
        Is everyone in that town going to be scared out of their wits every time they have company? I think
        San Juan Capistrano had better start concentrating what is going on and do something about it. What
        about coffee clatches and sewing groups etc. What madness!

        • bp

          Good point seenenuff! Who are the worship police?

        • J.Bettis

          Only in California does this type of lunacy occur. Ever wonder why California is one of the few states with a tv commercial begging tourists to “come see kalifornia”?

      • WoundedKnee

        How True How True…

        Bob ” Calls It Like He Sees It ” :-)

        • Christin

          WoundedKnee… as in the massacre at Wounded Knee between the Lakota Sioux Native Americans in South Dakota and the Seventh Cavalry? Are you a descendant?

          • C Colin

            Christin, The Lakota Sioux were originally from Galalee Israel they came to what is now America becasue of religious persecution from the catholic church. The catholics have changed their name throughout history to confuse people. They were the Pharasiees in your bible. They are still at the heart of most of the persecution and wars today. The catholic church also changed the name of the creator and the messiah. You can find this in history under the council of Nicea 325 ACE, under the leadership of the emperor and pope Constantine. You get the name Jesus Christ from two gods, Zues and Kristna-Jesus Christ. The true name is Yahshua which is derived from Yahweh, the name of the creator. For the complete truth go to Peace

          • Christin

            C Colin,

            Thanks for that bit of info… will look on your listed site.

            ‘The Vatican’, I have learned, is used as the ‘Spiritual Machine’ for TPTB and it is not the Holy God they love.

          • Christin

            C Colin,

            Pharisees, huh?
            It would appear to me that the ‘Pharisees’ (aka Catholics as you say) who thought they were above the Law (oh, gosh where have we heard this before) and even God Himself as they threw Jesus under the bus and tried time after time to ‘trick’ him (not understanding that HE IS GOD) and eventually conned Judas and his unbelieving heart to betray him and they stirred-up (sound like SEIU and unions) the public (Hebrews) to kill the ‘king of the Jews’… Jesus, in stead of Barabas, on the cross.

            Yes, this kind of makes sense if the Pharisees of the Bible are TPTB today.

            Well, if they could have Jesus killed what makes any of us think they would care anything about us.

    • 1minuteman

      in the usa your supposed to have the freedom to have anyone you want over to your home and talk about anything you want as well. it’s called free speech and freedom of assembly and despite the liberal; wackos’s were were founded by christians. this a perfect example off big brother now entering our homes. when are we going to stop this.

      • Patriot II

        Correct me If I’m wrong, but what this little town is doing is Breaking the Law (the Constitution),and it should be dealt with in that way.

        • Average Joe

          Technically you are correct. However you must understand how our current government works (and it isn’t how we were taught). I am attaching a couple of video’s to help clarify the issue as well as a Link to (go to the section [on the right hand side of the page] called “Historical Outline”).

          (Part one)

          (Part two)

          Knowledge is power.

          The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.
          John F. Kennedy

          • Average Joe

            * sSorry, I meant to say Left side of page…fingers moving faster than brain this morning…COFFEE!….lol

          • Bruce

            Joe, How sad that no one whats to understand this, I have pointed this out now how many times and zip, nadda, nothing.

            We don’t have a two party system its a “ONE” party system, why is that so hard for people to understand. We don’t have a Government we have a “Corporation.” How simple can it be?

            As noted if the people of the United States want change or their Freedom’s they had better get off their fat lazy ass’s and get busy wakeing people up to everything this person has stated.
            As what he has stated and I have been saying is the “ROOT” of the problem.

            Plus when the south walked away they commited whats called a Con Con thus the Constitution was made Null & VOID.
            Anyway Joe, Great post, have a super weekend.

          • Old Henry

            Average Joe:

            You did not do that. Your KEYBOARD did it.

          • Average Joe

            Technically speaking, you are correct….but not without assistance from my hands and brain….lol

          • Average Joe


            Unfortunately, too many people don’t understand the concept and as such…it eludes them. Some people “get it” and some don’t…some may eventually get it and unfortunately…the majority will never understand it. Then of course there are the ones that are so frightened that they won’t even look at it.

            Historical Outline

            1st: Martial Law is declared by President Lincoln on April 24th, 1863, with General Orders No. 100; under martial law authority, Congress and President Lincoln institute continuous martial law by ordering the states (people) either conscribe troops and or provide money in support of the North or be recognized as enemies of the nation; this martial law Act of Congress is still in effect today. This martial law authority gives the President (with or without Congress) the dictatorial authority to do anything that can be done by government in accord with the Constitution of the United States of America. This conscription act remains in effect to this very day and is the foundation of Presidential Executive Orders authority; it was magnified in 1917 with The Trading with the Enemy Act (Public Law 65-91, 65th Congress, Session I, Chapters 105, 106, October 6, 1917). and again in 1933 with the Emergency War Powers Act, which is ratified and enhanced almost every year to this date by Congress. Today these Acts address the people of the United States themselves as their enemy.

            2nd: The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 created a “municipal corporation” to govern the District of Columbia. Considering the fact that the municipal government itself was incorporated in 1808, an “Organic Act” (first Act) using the term “municipal corporation” in 1871 can only mean a private corporation owned by the municipality. Hereinafter we will call that private corporation, “Corp. U.S.” By consistent usage, Corp. U.S. trademarked the name, “United States Government” referring to themselves. The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 places Congress in control (like a corporate board) and gives the purpose of the act to form a governing body over the municipality; this allowed Congress to direct the business needs of the government under the existent martial law and provided them with corporate abilities they would not otherwise have. This was done under the constitutional authority for Congress to pass any law within the ten mile square of the District of Columbia. Follow this link to see the effect of the District of Columbia Act of 1871.

            3rd: In said Act, Corp. U.S. adopted their own constitution (United States Constitution), which was identical to the national Constitution (Constitution of the United States of America) except that it was missing the national constitution’s 13th Amendment and the national constitution’s 14th, 15th and 16th amendments are respectively numbered 13th, 14th and 15th amendments in the Corp. U.S. Constitution. At this point take special notice and remember this Corp. U.S. method of adopting their own Constitution, they will add to it in the same manner in 1913.

            4th: Corp. U.S. began to generate debts via bonds etc., which came due in 1912, but they could not pay their debts so the 7 families that bought up the bonds demanded payment and Corp. U.S. could not pay. Said families settled the debt for the payments of all of Corp. U.S.’ assets and for all of the assets of the Treasury of the United States of America.

            5th: As 1913 began, Corp. U.S. had no funds to carry out the necessary business needs of the government so they went to said families and asked if they could borrow some money. The families said no (Corp. U.S. had already demonstrated that they would not repay their debts in full). The families had foreseen this situation and had the year before finalized the creation of a private corporation of the name “Federal Reserve Bank”. Corp. U.S. formed a relationship with the Federal Reserve Bank whereby they could transact their business via note rather than with money. Notice that this relationship was one made between two private corporations and did not involve government; that is where most people error in understanding the Federal Reserve Bank system—again it has no government relation at all. The private contracts that set the whole system up even recognize that if anything therein proposed is found illegal or impossible to perform it is excluded from the agreements and the remaining elements remain in full force and effect.

            6th: Almost simultaneously with the last fact (also in 1913), Corp. U.S. adopts (as if ratified) their own 16th amendment. Tax protesters challenge the IRS tax collection system based on this fact, however when we remember that Corp. U.S. originally created their constitution by simply drafting it and adopting it; there is no difference between that adoption and this—such is the nature of corporate enactments—when the corporate board (Congress) tells the secretary to enter the amendment as ratified (even thought the States had not ratified it) the Se3cretary was instructed that the Representatives word alone was sufficient for ratification. You must also note, this amendment has nothing to do with our nation, with our people or with our national Constitution, which already had its own 16th amendment. The Supreme Court (in BRUSHABER v. UNION PACIFIC R. CO., 240 U.S. 1 (1916)) ruled the 16th amendment did nothing that was not already done other than to make plain and clear the right of the United States (Corp. U.S.) to tax corporations and government employees. We agree, considering that they were created under the authority of Corp. U.S.

            7th: Next (also 1913) Corp. U.S., through Congress, adopts (as if ratified) its 17th amendment. This amendment is not only not ratified, it is not constitutional; the nation’s Constitution forbids Congress from even discussing the matter of where Senators are elected, which is the subject matter of this amendment; therefore they cannot pass such and Act and then of their own volition, order it entered as ratified. According to the United States Supreme Court, for Congress to propose such an amendment they would first have to pass an amendment that gave them the authority to discuss the matter.

            8th: Accordingly, in 1914, the Freshman class and all Senators that successfully ran for reelection in 1913 by popular vote were seated in Corp. U.S. Senate capacity only; their respective seats from their States remained vacant because neither the State Senates nor the State Governors appointed new Senators to replace them as is still required by the national Constitution for placement of a national Senator.

            9th: In 1916, President Wilson is reelected by the Electoral College but their election is required to be confirmed by the constitutionally set Senate; where the new Corp. U.S. only Senators were allowed to participate in the Electoral College vote confirmation the only authority that could possibly have been used for electoral confirmation was corporate only. Therefore, President Wilson was not confirmed into office for his second term as President of the United States of America and was only seated in the Corp. U.S. Presidential capacity. Therefore the original jurisdiction government’s seats were vacated because the people didn’t seat any original jurisdiction government officers. It is important to note here that President Wilson retained his capacity as Commander in Chief of the military. Many people wonder about this fact imagining that such a capacity is bound to the President of the nation; however, When John Adams was President he assigned George Washington to the capacity of Commander in Chief of the military in preparation for an impending war with France. During this period, Mr. Adams became quite concerned because Mr. Washington became quite ill and passed on his acting military authority through his lead General Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Adams was concerned that if war did break out Mr. Hamilton would use that authority to create a military dictatorship of the nation. Mr. Adams averted the war through diplomacy and the title of Commander in Chief was returned to him.
            (See: John Adams, by David McCullough, this book covers Mr. Adams concerns over this matter quite well. Mr. Adams was a fascinating man.)

            10th: In 1917, Corp. U.S. enters W.W. I and passes their Trading with the Enemies Act.

            11th: In 1933, Corp. U.S. is bankrupt, they force a banking holiday to exchange money backed Federal Reserve Notes with “legal tender” Federal Reserve Notes the Trading with the Enemies Act is adjusted to recognize the people of the United States as enemies of Corp. U.S.

            12th: Some time after 1935, you ask Social Security Administration for a relationship with their program. With the express purpose of generating Beneficiary funds to United States General Trust Fund (GTF) the Social Security Administration creates an entity with a name (that sounds like your name but is spelled with all capital letters) and an account number (Social Security number). They give you the Social Security card and let you know that the card does not belong to you but you are to hold it for them until they want it back. If you are willing to accept that responsibility over the card you activate the card by signing it, which gives you the ability to act as the fiduciary for the cards actual owner Corp. U.S. and you can use the card’s name and number to thus transact business relations for the card’s actual owner. You are also to note that though the card verifies its agency (you as the single person with authority to control the entity so created) it is not for use as identification. On review: notice the Social Security Administration was the creator of the entity, they offered you the opportunity to serve its Trustee capacity (by lending it actual consciousness and physical capacity), they gave you something (the card) that does not belong to you to hold in trust and they reserved the actual owner of the thing (Corp. U.S.) as the beneficiary of the entity—by definition, this only describes the creation and existence of a Trust. More importantly: the name they gave this Trust is not your name, the number they gave the Trust is not your number and your lending actual consciousness and physical capacity to this Trust’s Trustee capacity does not limit you or your capacity to separately act in your natural sovereign capacity in any way—what you do, when you do it and how you do it is still totally up to you.

            13th: In 1944, under the Bretton Woods Agreement, Corp. U.S. is quit claimed to the International Monetary Fund, and becomes a foreign controlled private corporation.

            14th: In 1962, considering the states were forced to carry out their business dealings in terms of Federal Reserve Notes (foreign notes), which is forbidden in the national and State constitutions, out of the necessity the states began protecting themselves from the people by forming corporations like Corp. U.S. Accordingly, those newly formed corporate state administrations began adopting Corp. U.S. suggested uniform codes and licensing structures that allowed better and more powerful control over the people, which thing the original jurisdiction governments of this nation had no capacity to do. Our Constitutions secure that the governments do not govern the people rather they govern themselves in accord with the limits of Law. The people govern themselves. Such is the foundational nature of our Constitutional Republic.

            15th: By 1971, every State government in the union of States had formed such private corporations (Corp. State), in accord with the IMF admonition, and the people ceased to seat original jurisdiction government officials in their State government seats.

            Now, having stated these historical facts, we ask you not to believe us, but rather prove these facts for yourself. We then ask you to contact us and share your discovery with us.

            When you find there is no error in this historical outline, then remember these simple facts and let no one dissuade you from the truth.

            The Bottom Line: when you speak about these private foreign corporations remember that is what they are and stop calling them government.

            Further, it is very important that we cease to attempt to fix them. It is far more important that we learn how to reseat our original jurisdiction government and spread the word about the truth. By reseating our State and national governments in their original jurisdiction nature, we gain the capacity to hold these private foreign corporations accountable. They owe us a lot of money, in fact they owe us more money than there is available in the world. In fact it is impossible for them to pay and that gives us the leverage we need to take back our nation and put things right. The process is a simple one. The difficulty is in getting our people to wake up to the truth. That’s why we ask you to prove the truth for yourself and contact us with your discovery.

            That means that you must stop acting and communicating like you are anything other than the sovereign that God created you to be. And, stop referring to Corp. U.S. or the STATE OF ‘X’ as anything other than the private foreign corporations that they are. And, finally, stop listening to the Bigfoot Patriot Mythology that is espoused by those that only give these facts lip service.

            It’s time to wake up and follow the truth, time to repent and become a moral and honorable society instead of lauding our Piety while we stand guilty of:
            a) not knowing the truth;
            b) not living the truth;
            c) believing God will save us even though we have the tools to know the truth the ability to use the tools but we refuse to live by the truth and use the tools we have to save ourselves and thereby become free.

            The biggest problem with that they get all excited about uniting against the tyranny of Corp. U.S. is that they are blind to the truth having no remedy so they bail out of “the system” hell bent for a rebellion even the scripture says cannot be won with conventional weapons of war. Would that we could instead follow the admonition of the King of Kings and unite with truth to legally, lawfully and peacefully reseat our original jurisdiction government thereby taking back the control our nation in accord with law.

        • TrvlSEA

          Yes they are breaking the law.

          • Rebecca Fahlin

            What right does a city official have to tell you what you and your neighbors can do you your own homes? What you want to read is up to you! They are in their own homes. It is private property. This is not an issue of so-called “Separation of church and state”.

            Would the city officials dare fine them for this “crime” of practicing their free exercise of religion,see the 1st Amendment to the Constitution a.k.a. the Bill of Rights, if they were Moslem?!

            This is an unjust law! Created to harass and discriminate against Bible beliving people. It is in essence a hate crime and should be exposed and dealt with by challenging its Constitutionality.

        • Bob from SoCal

          You are not wrong sir. The tyrants in Capistrano need to be exposed for what they are. All Christians and patriots in this country need to stand up against this abuse, before there are no rights left to take.

        • DonnieB

          The “No Bible Study Laws” is just that, a law albeit a local law. I’m an atheist but I do believe this is an unconstitutional law. Just as I believe that Obamacare is also unconstitutional law. However, who believes that it is OK to ignore a law that you think is unconstitutional? By the way, that is what the Obama Administration is doing. The law should be challenged in court. That is the way the law says that it is supposed to work.

          Anyone think differently?

          • Judy

            DonnieB: Agree with you to a point because we are to obey the laws of our country, the Bible says. However, God’s law is over ANY other law & must be obeyed first. We are to gather together, worship him & spread the Gospel. If we let those kind of laws stop us, God’s word would never be spread around the world in countries where it is unlawful. Many people are dying because they are embracing God’s word & becoming a Christian in spite of their countries laws & the threat of death to them from even their own families or the threat to their families. God says, “Where 2 or more are together in his name, he will be there.”

          • Old Henry


            As I understand it they are challenging the law in court.

            And they should indeed continue meeting to obey God’s Law which trumps man’s law anytime.

            It is NO ONES business – not man, not some dirt-bag politician – what they do on their own property or in their own home as long as it does not interfer with a neighbor’s use of their property.

        • Old Henry

          Constitution PatriotII??

          We essentially no longer have a Constitution.

        • Ralph R.

          You have that right “Patriot 11″,let’s nip it in the butt before it gets
          any bigger,like we should do with obummer,they are building mosques up
          here in “Alaska” also,not only in New York where the twin towers used to be,it’s people like kissinger that are turning America on it’s head,his
          time has passed,he is still trying control things.
          He’s done for he has one foot in the grave,he’s part of the group that
          wants only 500some thousand to be alive it’s a more manageable number for them the socialist party, Reid,Pelosi,schummer of new york,the clintons,etc., do you get it yet?

      • http://naver samurai

        Why do they have a problem with this? If they can let the queers do things in their houses, then why can’t they let people gather to study the Bible? Studying and following the Bible helps get you into heaven, but the queers only get to feel the flames. This is a black eye on this nation to support a perverted lifestyle, but try to destroy our Christian founding and beliefs. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Bob G

          Ooorraahhhhh Samuri.

        • Angel Wannabe

          samurai, “Hear, Hear!” :)

        • Gloria

          Maybe they are Moslems who created that ordinance. Many Moslems certainly dont believe in freedom of religion execept their own. At any rate they dont get it. This is America.

          • Christin


            Maybe the City leaders are Godless Progressives (aka Communists, Socialists, Fascist, Marxist, or Islam) and they wish weaken us by getting rid of our freedom to worship of the True Living Lord that gives us power and life… so that the people will forget and not get saved (born again and have life eternal) and will be open to worship their fake messiah… and go to Hell with satan.

    • Charlie Tall

      Amendment I
      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      -No law prohibiting free exercise of religion.
      -No law prohibiting the right of the people peaceably to assemble.

      Bill Wright, what is it about these words that confuse you? That you don’t understand?

      And by the way, the First Amendment (which is quoted above) has been incorporated into the states by the Fourteenth Amendment which states, “…No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States…”

      Now, Bill Wright, do you understand that your city ordinances do not amount to diddly-squat? They are irrelevant. Indeed, they are, in and of themselves, violations of the Bill of Rights. You’ve heard of the Bill of Rights, haven’t you?

      The warnings these folks may or may not have been given are also irrelevant. It’s nobody’s damned business what they do in the privacy of their home. See Amendment IV, which states, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated…”

      The “kind of people they” are is as irrelevant and bigoted as Nazi propaganda. You could just as well justify persecuting them because they are homosexual, Jews, gypies, Poles, Muslims, blacks, Asians, Inuits, golfers, etc. Pick one.

      What matters, Bill Wright, is that “these people” are exercising their God-given right to worship; a right that is also protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution, a.k.a. the first clause of the Bill of Rights. They are also exercising their similarly protected right to assemble for whatever (noncriminal) purpose they choose. They are also protected in the exercise of these rights by their right to privacy.

      In other words, Bill Wright, neither you nor anyone else have any business judging them, their religion, their friends, or their legal activities.

      Any questions?

      Please note that I did not use any abusive language in replying to this dolt. Oops.

      • Oakley Mann

        Great response and I cannot agree more. It seems many in this country forget what our country is supposed to stand for, and I might add that the Government plays a role in some of the misunderstandings. Our country is still Christian, but if you are not that is ok, just don’t infringe upon Christian beliefs and right to assembly and worship in any way they choose, whether home or at the lake. It is absolutely none of local or national Govts business.

        • DonnieB

          The US is a majority Christian nation but not a Christian Nation. If you would prefer to argue with Thomas Jefferson on that point, you would look foolish.

          I would hope that the Constitution would be followed in this case and these people be left alone. Even if I disagree with their message.

          • Oakley Mann

            I have no reason to look foolish as you may say, I excluded one word by mistake, majority, so sue me

          • Jana

            Oakley Mann,
            Even so, Thomas Jefferson signed many of his documents “In the year of our Lord Christ”.

            If he said that today, he would be tarred and feathered.

            One example: . . . signed by Thomas Jefferson on September 24, 1807. This document is permission for a ship called the Herschel to proceed on its journey to the port of London. The interesting characteristic of this document is the use of the phrase “in the year of our Lord Christ.” Many official documents say “in the year of our Lord,” but we have found very few that include the word “Christ.” However, this is the explicitly Christian language that President Thomas Jefferson chose to use in official public presidential documents.

          • Jana

            And NO, I am not Catholic, I am a Born again Christian.

          • Jana

            This went to the wrong spot. It should go above.

          • Karolyn

            Jana – It was a geneally accepted term to use. Even though Jefferson was not a believer in all that the Bible says, he would still use that term, as did everyone else.

          • Jana

            Many official documents say “in the year of our Lord,” but we have found very few that include the word “Christ.” However, this is the explicitly Christian language that President Thomas Jefferson chose to use in official public presidential documents.

      • Wakinyan

        Excellent point by point rebuttal to Mr. Wright’s nearly incoherent “reasoning” that is obviously based in liberal left wing foolishness. Thanks Charlie.

      • Mo

        I’m with you here! I’m a vet who GLADLY served America for the privilege of bringing up my family here but somehow in the People’s Republic Of California they’ve forgotten our Constitution. It’s simple; if you don’t like it, don’t participate but if they’re not clogging the streets with traffic or going door to door (like Girl they bother THEIR meetings too?) then leave them alone. I’m not a Christian but come to Arizona and try that and you’re in for a fight! I hope these folks bring the “Gimme” Civil Rights case against this podunk bunch of self-important buffoons and the municipality they represent.

      • Steve Heitmann

        RE: Charlie Tall

        You are quoting the U.S. Constitution, which is Federal. This city ordinance isn’t a federal zoning code, it’s a county/city ordinance under the jurisdiction of the State of California–state, not federal.

        So, how about finding the city ordinance and quoting that? I’m certain you will find that it has nothing to do with religious gatherings. Rather, with the number of people meeting on a frequently scheduled basis in a high-density residential area. The permit that they needed to obtain–again has nothing to do with religion–gives the city an opportunity to determine whether such regularly scheduled bi-weekly meetings of 50 people could cause traffic congestion, fire hazards, problems for emergency vehicle access, etc. The one-time fee would have paid for the inspector’s time. And if this couple has been as thoughtful of their neighbors as they say, causing none of the above problems, the permit would have been issued. End of story–no fines. No lawsuits. No problem.

        • Steve Heitmann


          Amendment 10 – Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.
          The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

          In other words, as mentioned above, the county/city ordinance is, according to Amendment 10 of the Constitution, under the jurisdiction State of California.

      • john

        Hey Charlie,remind me to not get on your bad side.

      • Pathfinder0100

        Charlie Tall You sure know what you are talking about!! Wonder if Bill understands it?

    • CJ

      Bill, I hope your likeminded local officials come busting in on you and your sports buddies and say you can’t have a football party, for the same reasons.

    • white tiger

      Bill, it doesn’t matter whether the couple knew about the unconstitutional law or not. The point is that the city may NOT impose such a regulation. We hold regular bible studies and will always do so, no matter what government, at any level says about it. Such is our God-given right. Our rights, by the by, are given to us by God, our Creator; not by Government, our creature.
      If the city was addressing a traffic problem, a parking problem, a noise problem, that could be a different matter; but there is no evidence of such. Studying the Bible is not usually a noisy proposition.This is a case of some government functionaries acting out their atheistic convictions in a hateful and unlawful manner.

      • LittleFartBert

        White Tiger, I heard on the news that they were having meetings twice a week with over 50 people each time. The news also said that the city said if they continue to have these bible studies, they need to pay for an environmental, traffic, and parking studies. If they are having over 50 people attending, parking and traffic do need to be addressed, overwise, who cares what they do.

    • Donald

      It doesn’t matter how many times they were told about the City Ordinance, or what the city Ordinance said. The city has no authority to make a law affecting an establishment of religion in contravention to the Constitution. This is a nobrainer. The city will lose when this goes to court.

      The next thing to do is to unseat the city council that has no concept of freedom of religion or the Constitution. What idiots!

      • Wakinyan

        You are correct in that the city SHOULD lose if this goes to court but don’t forget this is in southern CA, a bastion of left wing politically correct idiocy and too many decisions coming from their courts reflect that attitude toward our Constitution.

    • http://comcast Lynn

      So how many people are allowed to come over to your house and have drinks before you have to get a liquer licence??? The govenment needs to stop going into the homes of the American people and telling them everything they are doing is illegal when it clearly is not. Go after the Meth labs and leave a simple Bible study group alone! Don’t you thing there are bigger dragons to slay than people reading and praying? When is the madness going to stop!!!

      • 45caliber


        It is easier to stop Bible study groups – they don’t shoot back!

        • afdbghq

          Another point to consider is that the Bible Study group is not giving large kick backs to the police and politicians to let them run their illegal businesses. If the Christians were giving kick backs to the city council there probably would not be any problem with the gatherings.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Exactly WHAT is ILLEGAL about it?? If, In fact, they did not go after each and every weekly football party, card game, barb-b-que, what have you, it IS unconstitutional as the law MUST be afforded EQUALLY!!

          • afdbghq

            Joe H. I was not referring to the gathering as being illegal. I was referring to the drug dealers, meth labs, illegal gambling, prostitution, etc. that give big bribes to the police and politicians to ensure they are not harassed or busted. This is a prime example of our corrupt political system at work.

    • DonS

      The Constitution trumps the local ordinances! That there is a local ordinance that forbids a meeting in one’s home of more than 3 people is so stupid, on the surface, that enforcement should be laughed out of court. If not, then this case should be carried as far as necessary.

      If we don’t start enforcing the limitations in the Constitution, we might, one day, have a President that ignores these limitations. Oh, wait a minute, we already have that problem.

      • Pathfinder0100

        DonS Well said!!!

    • EyesWideOpen

      Why have so many of the so-called Christians in this country just been sitting on their pompous asses and doing nothing (for several generations) while our great country has been disassembled by the followers of Satan? Because they believe in one of the biggest deceptions that Satan ever got so many to swallow. A hair-brained theory conjured up by a wacko, who was probably a cathcomsocialcrat, (new word is mine-think about it ) around 1830 which is known today as the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory. A belief that Yeshua (Jesus) will come back and remove the believers of the Bible from the earth before the great tribulation – i.e.: before the crap hits the fan. So since they think that they will be spared from suffering the end times, they sit and do nothing! What a sad thing has happened! What a great sin! Just look at what the ‘rapture theory’ has caused in its followers over the past 100 – 150 years. Most have sat idly by and done nothing to stop the ungodly from all but removing God from this country! This is also proof that the theory is not from GOD!!!

      • Tim Orner

        It is ashame that you chose a fundemental truth of GOD’s word, to prove an otherwise valid point. Yes, true, Born Again Chistians have fallen into the Satanic trap of accepting materialism and therefor have lost the desire to defend America’s ideals and take a stand. But the Rapture explained in the Bible WILL take place BEFORE the Great Tribulation, for one major truth. Who is the Prince of this world?, Satan. What is the only representation of GOD in this world, runned by Satan: the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lives where? In the hearts of those that have received him. The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit must be removed in order for the Anti-Christ to deceive the world. There can not be any influence of good on this earth, otherwise, there would be those that would not be so willing to believe in the deception. It also will reveal the utter depravity of man, that hates the GOD of the Bible, and THINKS that he is finally free of religion. GOD is also very clear in Scripture that the Born Again Christian will not suffer the consequences of the tribulation. Read and believe!!!!!

        • Kate8

          Tim – I agree. There are many allusions in both the OT and NT to the effect that the Faithful will not endure the Great Tribulation, that God’s People are “not appointed to wrath”. It clearly states that the Terrible Day of the Lord is to be poured out on those who rebel against God, and that it is a Day of Salvation and Redemption for His people.

          It also states that we should “pray that we and our families be found worthy to escape the wrath to come”. Why would God say this unless He has provided escape?

          I could list passage after passage which makes this point clear. If one doesn’t see this, he is not reading very closely.

        • http://BustedforBeingAChristian R W Roberts

          My friend, please read the 24 chapter of Matthew 29th & 30th verses.
          Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
          30th verse:
          And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          I really wish you were correct but we have to take what the bible says and it very clearly says immediately after the tribulation. There is a difference in the tribulation and the wrath of God. We sure
          don’t want to be here when that takes place.

    • xombiestomp

      It doesn’t matter how many times they were warned. This is ILLEGAL, for any level of government to tell these people that they can’t meet, for ANY reason. No fears, the antiChrist is on the scene. Don’t believe it? Read the bible. The crap that’s going on in Israel, all the way down to this new persecution of Christians. We’re so close to the end it’s crazy. Matter of fact, you can call me crazy. I’m one of those freedom loving, bible toting, Constitutionalist Christians! And I will die before I hand over my God given rights! You can try to argue the bible agianst that if you want. But the fact is, they will have to kill me if they want this new world order. And they probably will. But before they do, I will, by the power of the Holy Spirit bring many more people to Christ!

      • Karolyn

        I just can’t wait to be here a couple of years from now to hear you still saying the same old thing. It’s coming! “The end is near!” Will you be the least bit embarrassed when it doesn’t happen?

        • Tim Orner

          Karolyn, Again your unbelief in GOD’s word reveals its TRUTH. PLEASE read II Peter 3:3&4 Knowing this first, that scoffers will come in the last days walking according to their own lusts, saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. Continuing in verse 9: For the LORD is not slack concerning HIS promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us [you], not willing that any [you] should perish but that all [you] should come to repentance. For the day of the LORD will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away. Karolyn, Please continue to read: Matthew 24 verses 3-14, Matthew 24 verses 29-31, Mark 13 verses 3-13, Mark 13 verses 24-27, Luke 21 verses 7-19, and Luke 21 verses 25-28, these verses spoken by JESUS himself that describes the condition of this world at the time of his second coming. The world condition today is fast becoming the truth of these verses, more so than at any time in human history. You know something else that really proves the validity of the Bible? What is the only religon today that is being persecuted. Christianity. You know what makes TRUE christianity the only true religon, ALL religons are based on works. What can I do, or what do I have to do, to get to heaven? The “loving” GOD would not send me, a nice person that lived his life the best I could, to HELL. WRONG!!!! TRUE Biblical Christianity is the only faith that says that it is what GOD did for us [you] that allows us access to heaven. Unless you can live a perfect sinless life, which no one is capable of doing, then only the ONE who did live the perfect life has the power to forgive us [you] of your sin, JESUS CHRIST the GOD/man. I pray that you might find the way to the truth so that you can enjoy the fact that no matter how bad the situation in this world becomes, that there is no fear to those who have trusted in JESUS CHRIST for their salvation.

          • Pathfinder0100

            Tim Orner –Well said but I really doubt that Karolyn understands any of it–Keep spreading the word Tim!!

        • Christin


          You keep ‘waiting’ and laughing while you can, but in a few years we won’t be here for you to see… as we, ‘The Believers’ in Jesus Christ, will be Raptured and in Paradise in Heaven with our Lord while you are Left Behind in this miserable Freedomless World where evil reigns. All God’s people and all God’s love, power and presence will be gone. The world will be left in devastation ruled by the false-prophet,the anti-Christ and the Beast(satan) who will rule the unGodly.

          Good luck with that.

          The more people satan can keep from hearing the TRUTH about the saving Grace of Jesus Christ in The Word in the Bible and keep from praying to the Lord God Almighty… the better for him (satan) as he can take more to eternal damnation with him… and it won’t be pretty. Certainly not peaceful and filled with love as God has removed all that He IS from Hell.

          God is LIFE, LOVE, HOPE, TRUTH, and The WAY… and he gives us Free Will… and so much more.

          • LittleFartBert

            We all have a right to our choice of religion. I chose to believe in Mother Earth. You chose to believe in God, and read the bible. I say good for you for believing in your faith, and I respect you for it. I do not knock, insult or bad mouth your faith, so I ask that you please do the same, and do not knock, insult or bad mouth my faith. Again I ask, please respect me for believing in my faith like I respect you for believing in yours.

        • Karolyn

          Christin – It seems to me I have heard from more Biblically knoledgeable people than me that there is nothing in the Bible about a Rapture.

          • Tim Orner

            Karolyn, I Thessalonians 4 – 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so GOD will bring with Him, those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of GOD. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Yes the Bible does teach the rapture of the church of Born Again Christians. But, you must be born again to inherit the kingdom of GOD. Being religeous, being a good person, attending church, will not get you into heaven. Trusting in Jesus Christ ALONE, for his death on the cross, his ressurection from the dead conquering sin, death, and hell, is the only way to see eternal life. Put your trust in the one that made you and loves you enough so that death does not have to be feared.

        • Karolyn

          Tim – I respect your beliefs, but I’ve been there…done that. Too many holes in the story for me. I have found more love and truth in believing in a Universal Intelligence that encompasses all. No such thing as hell and satan. Life on earth is the closest we get to a hell. Death is just a wink of an eye; and we’re free to exist in total peace in the universe or come back if we wish.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            do all here a favor and go preach your hindi/bhudist crap somewhere else!! That dog don’t hunt!!

          • Karolyn

            tsk, tsk, Joe, such intolerance. :-)

          • Tim Orner

            karolyn, I respect your belief as well. I guess I just don’t understand the “to many holes”. This life is so simple its scary. GOD never wanted it any other way. Life according to GOD: 1: GOD makes man. 2: Man is given a choice to exersize his free will, by either obeying GOD, or disobeying HIM. 3. Man choses to disobey GOD and suffers the consequences, which is physical and spiritual death. 4: GOD provides a sacrifice, himself, to restore the broken relationship that GOD wants to have with man, and provides a life free from death. 5: Man once again has the opportunity to exersize his free will, by either accepting the sacrifice, and gaining eternal life, or reject the gift of life and suffer the original punishment, death appart fom the GOD that loves you. I’m sorry but I don’t see any holes in this narrative. I don’t know how GOD could have made mans restoration to him any simpler. I would encourage you to consider reading the gospel of John in a King James version of the Bible. It will in a loving way introduce you to the GOD that not only made you, but also loves you enough to die for you, so that you can spend eternity with him.

          • Karolyn

            but, Tim, why an all-loving, all-encompassing, all-knowing God want to subject his beings to anything other than love? Those who do not follow the Truth of love are not happy, though they might look that way. They suffer in hell every day for their actions. why would a God subject his people to tests? For an all-powerful being, why would that be necessary? What of all the religions that do not believe in the bible. They are to suffer because they were born into cultures not exposed to the bible? I have heard that the rapture won’t occur until every person on earth has been exposed to the Bible. Well, that certainly hasn’t happened yet and I don’t think it ever will happen. There are still undiscovered Indians living in the Amazon! There are too many questions. I could go on for a while here, but I do have other things to do.

          • Tim Orner

            Karolyn, The miss understanding that you have of GOD, is that he never intended for man to fall into sin. Mans free will to “choose” wrong or right , and the decision made by man to chose wrong has placed him in the delemma he had been in since the beginning of time. Your real question is: Why would a loving GOD allow all of the suffering? He only allows it because man chose to rebel against GOD. That is why, immediately after Adam and Eve sinned, GOD sacrificed an animal and took its skin and covered them. This is a picture of the fact that there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood, that covers the sin. GOD also immediately promised that he himself would one day come to this earth, being fully GOD and fully man, for the sole purpose of laying down his own life, taking and committing all of the sin of the world, past, present, and future, so that man could be restored back to himself. I frankly don’t know of a greater love then this. I understand that evil is SO dificult to comprehend, but it was our choice, not GOD’s Also understand, and I realize that even the idea of there being a hell is so difficult, that yes there is a hell, and sadly many people are going there, but uunderstand that GOD DID NOT create hell for humans. It was created long before man sinned for the devil and his demons. Hell only became a reality for us when we chose to rebel. Maybe another question to contimplate: So why doesn’t GOD just forgive everyone and have all humans go to heaven? He HAS!!!! But again, understand that GOD is not going to violate mans free will to choose. Because the sacrifice for sin has been made by Jesus Christ laying down his life, we are now left with the choice of accepting or rejecting the “FREE” gift of salvation. This is why I said in a previous comment, that true Biblical Christianity is the only true religon. Because eternal life is NOT determined by what I do, [good works] but has been determined by what Jesus has already done. You know why Catholosizm does not want you read your Bible? Because you would or might, learn that there is so much deception built into the catholic faith about mediation, pergatory, [nowhere to be found even in the catholic Bible], or the personal relationship that you need to have with Jesus, not the priest. It is not at all surprising to me that you lost faith. Your conscience which GOD gave to you, was telling you that something just isn’t right. PLEASE, PLEASE, get a King James version of the Holy Bible, and read the Gospel of John, the 4th book in the new testament. You will be introduced to the GOD that hates the suffering that man puts himself through, and therefore provided the solution so that one day, maybe very soon, you can live an eternity with GOD where there will be no more sin, and the utopia all of us desire will be a reality for eternity. GOD bless you Karolyn, I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your spiritual eyes and you can then accept and receive LIFE!!!!!!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            you make a very common mistake. you blame god for all mans sin. you sound just like the man who said “God why during all my trials and hard times were there only one set of foot prints?” god answered him,” My son, that was when I CARRIED you!” Man has the choice to live a riteous life or a sinful life, HE makes the choice, not God! God gives them the choice!!!! All he has to do is trust in the Lord God!!

    • Steve Heitmann

      I agree about having all the facts. So I found a CBS News report that includes some additional (and pertinent) information. (watch the video)

      This isn’t just a “small” gathering of friends, as the meetings involve 50 people, twice per week, in a neighborhood zoned for residential. This isn’t about discriminating against Christians, not even in the least bit.

      This is about meeting zoning codes.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Steve, This is about meeting codes,Really?.. that’s what the heads want you to believe!__Every time they do something like this more and more of Freedoms are chipped away!…If not now ..when?

        • Karolyn

          Come on, Angel. Why make this about religion? If these people are using their home as a church, then they have to abide by the rules. Of course, this is a perfect scenario for all of the Christian martyrs to beat their breasts about. I seriously doubt that if they were having a couple of friends over once a week for Bible study nobody would give a crap!

          • afdbghq

            What people choose to do in the privacy of their own home as long as it does not involve criminal activity is nobodies business. These people were not causing a noise problem, a traffic problem, or destroying any property. Therefore they have a right under The Constitution of the United States to gather as many times as they want at their house to conduct Bible Study, Church, or any other activity they choose and the city/county/state/FED has no right or authority to stop them. They could hold a bible study (or any other legal activity) every two hours of the day every day and as long as they did not cause a noise or traffic problem it is their right to do so or are you one of the people who do not believe in our freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Karolyn, I guess I’ve made this about religion because it just so happens to be what the article is about___ :P

          • Bob Livingston

            Dear Karolyn,

            I must say, bless your heart. You are as a blade of grass, buffeted by the wind. Your tune changes as the day goes on. Have you no foundation?

            Best wishes,

          • Angel Wannabe

            karolyn___ ya better get with it girl these people were reading the bible__THE BIBLE, are ya gettin this?___Then on the other HAND, where’s the authorities when peoplelike the man in this video, are calling for an up rise and creating a crisis like the link below…WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY, WHO PAID THEM OFF TO TURN AWAY?


          • DaveH

            Some reason:

            From the article — “The city attorney says the meetings have attracted “up to 50 people.” He claims the meetings are held Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons, which would mean gross revenue of $1,000 a week for a city …”
            It always comes back to money, doesn’t it? The Government Gang is hungry. If we don’t feed them, they get mad.

          • john

            If they having a Tupperware party or Avon in their house, would you want to fine them for using their home for commercial transactions.After all it is a home,not a store and they have no license for commercial activity.

          • Angel Wannabe

            DaveH, 50/100 people, would they crash it if it was a simple cook out someone had everyweek or family gatherings?___ my Dad had very LARGE FAMILY 7 brothers and sisters, and 8 step brothers and sisters_____

            stating the obvious it’s always about money, but they lie and say its too protect us!__One they get you
            to “buy” the license, and two they get to tell you whether or not your “PERMITTED” to DO it!

          • Karolyn

            Bob L. – I guess you don’t get my point. When I initially read the article, I assumed it was a couple of people getting together for a simple Bible study. However, the more I read, the more I could see where large groups of people meeting at someone’s house on Sunday mornings could be construed as a church and so would be subject to any rules the town might have concerning such gatherings. I am not a Christian; however, I do support peoples’ rights to pray, have no problem with the 10 commandments, etc. I am certainly not anti-Christian (though many are anti my beliefs!) The point is that the city, whether fair or right or wrong, may have a leg to stand on. the law is the law. I am not saying I agree with it.

          • Karolyn

            John – If someone had a tupperware party at their house every week with 50 people in attendance, that would certainly be classified as a business; and if it were in a residential area with no business variance, they would be subject to the law of that town. This is way old news. Where I live, they are somewhat lenient; however, more populated areas are more heavily regulated.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            As i stated above, if the city hasn’t gone after every WEEKLY football party, card game, WHAT HAVE YOU, then The city is acting illegally as the law MUST BE APPLIED EQUALLY!!!

      • Steve Heitmann

        Please see my comments above to Charlie Tall:
        September 23, 2011 at 1:37 pm

        You can choose to be paranoid about freedoms being chipped away, if you wish… that’s your prerogative. We live in a society of a few hundred million people, under the Rule of Law, to assure a fair, orderly, or systematic set of rules that applies to everyone. We have laws, ordinances and codes to ensure the safety, freedoms, and rights for all citizens, “to promote the general welfare”, not just for those who want to do it their way. If you disagree with a law, our system of law provides methods for (you) to challenge that law and potentially change it. And that’s how We The People work towards forming “a more perfect union” (for all citizens).

        The couple at the center of this issue could have saved themselves legal costs and a lot of hassle just by having a clue about their city’s requirements. Is it so onerous to make sure those 50 people meeting twice per week don’t interfere with anyone else’s needs, for example, like too many parked cars blocking emergency vehicle access to the neighbor down the street who just had a heart attack? Do you think your rights are chipped a because you are required to stop at a red light? Because you are required to get a marriage license? And so on…. ?

        • Karolyn

          You’re absolutely right Steve. But if it were Muslims, I kinda think everybody would be applauding the law.

          • Kate8

            Karolyn – Now, I must admit that I am not comfortable with Muslims gathering to study their religion in my town, but then, I’m not comfortable with Muslims being in America, either.

            I don’t know of any Christian Bible studies where they advocate overthrowing our nation and instituting a rigid theocracy where you convert or lose your head. I don’t know of any Christians who would gather to plan setting off a nuke in a city, or just bombing a shopping mall (or church).

            Yet, this is something that could likely be going on in every mosque, never mind home studies. Muslims are a threat. Christians are not.

            Even given this fact, Muslims’ right to gather and “study their religion” is protected, whether I am comfortable with it or not.

          • Karolyn

            Kate – Surely you are aware that most ordinary, everyday, American Muslims are not followers of the extremists. Maybe they don’t follow the Koran to the letter, but they still consider themselves Muslims. they feel that the basic teaching of the Koran is to be of help to others. They don’t beat their wives. They have jobs and live within the law. They love their families and want the best for them. they love this country, especially those born here. Why does everyone look at the bad ones and not the good? The good outweigh the bad.

          • Jana

            Many are good, but many are bad too. How can we tell the differnce when we know that they practice taquiyah law which is to tell the infidel what they want to hear and then turn on them at the right time?

          • Kate8

            Jana – Exactly. If these are the things which Islam teaches as doctrine, then all who profess this religion must be held suspect.

            We must remember, as you said, that Muslims are obliged to deceive and cheat the infidel. It is even considered a sign of cleverness. This religion is based on things that our Scriptures tell us are wrong and immoral. In fact, we are instructed to treat others exactly as we would have them treat us.

            Is this really the mindset we want living among us? Not me. If this is what Islam teaches and stands for, then it can only be evil, and nothing that comes of evil bears anything but rotten fruit.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Steve Heitmann,
          If street parking is permitted, then how are they breaking the law there? Street parking is on a first come, first served basis!

        • GaryTraditionalUltraConservative

          Yes, I agree with you Steve Heitmann. You can always have too much of a good thing. Doing things in very carefully measured moderation and just plain good old fashioned common sense along with making sure to consider the thoughts and the needs and the Constitutional Rights of your neighbors to be able to Live in peace and quiet are all things that all people must consider and think about including any people who wish to worship any religion in their own peaceful way. Allowing 50 people to meet at one single home twice a week does “appear” to be bordering on pushing things to an extreme level instead of doing things in moderation like perhaps allowing 25 people to meet at a single home on one day a week or on one evening a week. Common sense and considering the neigbors’ right to be able to Live in peace and quiet must also be considered. But to be officially and legally accused of being a criminal because you have 10 or 15 people meeting at the same home on two separate days or on two separate evenings every week can also be considered very extreme and abusive and probably an infringement and a violation of the homeowner’s Constitutional Rights who has invited the 10 or 15 people to meet at that homeowner’s house. Well, common sense should always prevail, however, sometimes common sense is just ignored on too many different occasions.

      • Curious to know.

        It seems to me that there are a couple issues with even citing the number of people drawn to the meetings as reason to shut them down. (That is assuming that CBS is accurately reporting that the meetings draw as many as 50 people, and I’d barely trust CBS to accurately report the current weather.)

        One, there is the matter that, if the article is accurate in its presentation, if the ‘regular gatherings’ had been for purposes of tupperware, pampered chef, tastefully simple, football games, cookouts, card parties, etc, they would have been totally fine, even if they did regularly draw 50 or 100 participants. Once the ordinance crossed to specifically slapped limits only on religious meetings and left all other gatherings unhindered, they violated several Constitutional restrictions on government. (This is true even though the first amendment only specifies limits upon Federal government.)

        Two, there is the question of the neighbors. If the article’s reporting is accurate, then none of this couple’s neighbors have any problems with these gatherings, nor have the gatherings caused any issues with the local traffic/parking environment. Restricting such gatherings makes sense IF it is causing serious neighborhood problems or road and traffic issues. (There are places that certainly could not handle the increase from 20 or 30 or 50 people on a regular bases, but in that case, no kind of regular gatherings should be allowed no matter the purpose. One must, of course, make exception for the occasional gathering, like an Open House, birthday party, etc.) The neighbors have no problems with this couple holding regular Bible studies, so one must wonder about the local government’s prohibiting them, even if such a prohibition WERE legal, which it isn’t.

    • john

      it doesn’t matter how many warnings they had.they shouldn’t have had any. it doesn’t matter whether or not they read the ordinances.any that are against bible study are illegal anyway.what kind of people are they? obviously they are Christian.if they were muslim,we wouldn’t be having this problem. the city council would have been extremely silent,as would you. Christianity is alive and well? I am sure you and obama will do your best to put a stop to that.

    • DaveH

      What difference would it make, Bill, if they were warned or were aware of the ordinances? The ordinances are still anti-religious and probably even Unconstitutional.

    • Judy

      It doesn’t make any difference whether they were warned or what kind of religion it was. You can bet if it was Muslims or budddists, it would not have happened!! That is their home & whether it is a Tupperware party or a prayer meeting makes no difference. Even the part of the law against meetings in the home of more than 3 at a time, is unconstitutional! I wouldn’t live in California if it were the last place in the country to go. Pelosi & all her liberal followers deserve it. They need to go home, dragging the rest of the liberals with them & secede from the U.S. because they have no respect for the constitution or the Founding Fathers who wrote it.

    • Harold Mawyer

      I sold Bibles when I was 16(now 80!) and had read it through many times,never really understanding much of It. In 1972 had an encounter with the Living Christ, invited Him into my heart as Savior and Lord, then all that had been a mystery to me became very clear and understandable. Scripture tells us that the things of God are spiritually discerned and until one has the indwelling of Holy Spirit, one cannot understand the things of God! As for the persecuted Christins in Calif. Hallelujah, cause Jesus warned His followerers that they would be hauled before the Scribes and Pharacees and Saducees and prosecuted,persecuted and imprisoned for His Namesake. So, dear brothers and sisters, counted it all joy that you have been found worthy to be named in His Name. Be joyful for all these things are promised as signs of the times of that grand and glorious day, when He discends with a trumpet blast and the shout of arhangels!! What a day that will be, when my Jesus I shall see!! Are you ready ?

    • Pathfinder0100

      God loves you Bill inspite of your ignorance.

    • Ross Reeder

      how many times they were “warned”?, what kind of people they are? none of this matters. we have the right to peacefully assemble and practice our own religion, regardless of what the government thinks. this is a hill we must be willing to die on. I await my audit.

    • David B

      How many times were they warned? Does warning one of an immoral anti religious law make it ok? Just as strong people do, these brave people stood up against the tyrants which attempt to control them. As well as against those who out of their own personal weakness support the tyrants.


      • Jana

        Also, they live in a semi rural area aand have a little over an acre of land. so obviously since as they said traffic is not an issue, and the cars are parking on private property, what is the problem here?

  • s c

    Bill, you can say and think what you want, but when Caesar tells me that I can’t have Bible study in MY HOME, it’s time to tell Caesar [in pointed, focused words] that he can go #^&* himself – and every horse he ever rode on, too.
    Perhaps it’s time for Christians to go underground again. It was a long time ago that Christians had to do exactly that. Since we’re confronted with yet another Caesar, it’s time to go into defense mode. I expect it won’t be long before it’s also time to walk away from most organized ‘churches.’
    America’s Caesar mentality already has plans for controlling church people via the heads of the churches. I, for one, have a major problem saying ‘respect’ and Caesar in the same breath. If Caesar can’t respect me, then he’ll have an interesting, long wait before I show him any respect.

    • 45caliber

      No, I don’t think it is time for Christians to go underground again. I think it is time for us to stand up to Seizer (correct spelling) and tell him where to go – and perhaps even help him go there.

    • john

      AMEN. so very true.

    • Harold Mawyer

      Have ye not heard of the Underground, Persecuted Church, which numbers in the millions around the world? Look beyond the cloistered walls of Americas serene houses of worship(?) and you will find multitudes meeting in secrecy throughout Asia, Middle East,etc
      Signs of the times are every where, there’s a brand new feeling in the air. Keep your eye on the eastern sky,for your redemption drawth nigh!!

  • Angel Wannabe

    ….I’ll repeat what I said the other day, there is an all out war on Christianity in this country… and Bill I don’t know your from, but where I come, if want to pray with friends I do it…I already have “permission” from God to do it and the only license or ordinance I need to pray, is a one on one relationship with my creator!
    NOW, If anyone intends to do anything about it, a couple of good four legged friendly pitbulls will gladly show you how the friggin door works, by shoving your azz back through from whence you came!!!!

    • john

      AMEN SISTER.Even an idiot should understand this.But I’m not sure they are that smart.

      • Angel Wannabe

        john__ these Progressive suckers are just trying to push the envelope as far as they can, before someone snaps___then they’ll blame it all on Right Wing Extremists!_-That’s why we gotta hold firm!

  • http://ByGeorge By George

    Looks like a great lawsuit on the horizon which could end any financial problems of the Fromm family for ever. Government, from Congress down to the city council of San Juan Capistrano simply have no business getting involved with a freedom of religion issue. If they tried that with the muslims, bets are several heads would soon be on display stuck on poles on the mission grounds.

    But, it would be better to remove the city council by voting them out, electing TEA party candidates and rescinding those stupid ordinances. Whatever, get involved. They (the Liberals) are coming for you. It’s time to be heard. If not now, when? If not you, who?

    • eddie47d

      Sound the alarm By George it has to be the Liberals. Wrong! Orange County Democrats hold no County or even State offices. That includes those in San Juan Capistrano which is a strong Republican area.There are 178 council members and only 19 are Democrats. The Republicans are the ones who influenced city decisions in this case.

      • Angel Wannabe

        eddie 47d __ this isn’t right/left paradigm, were talking Constitutional Rights!__although this all been prophesied in the Bible,I don’t think God expects us to stand idly by and say!

        • Kate8

          Angel – I’m seeing that it’s eddie’s (and other libs, as well) job to keep the L/R paradigm going. It doesn’t matter what the issue, he makes it about the L/R.

          The truth is, a real conservative is rare, and doesn’t last long in politics before coming around to the DC mindset. They are all Left-leaning now, regardless of their labels.

          The war is now against Christians. This is not only about eliminating God from everything. It’s also part of the pitting of each man against the other, for any reason, and Christians make an easy target these days, since they are the only ones who still see perversity as…perversity.

          Of course, we have vast numbers of churches now who are “coming around” to the idea of a “new world” (order). Even Christianity is selling its soul.

          All things that can be shaken are being shaken. This is so the things that cannot be shaken will be left standing.

          The shaking is just beginning…

          • Angel Wannabe

            kate8, trying again, sadly your right kate. I think it’s being done to incite civil unrest. What a better way to impose Martial Law, by Excuetive Order, which is the ONLY wanna be Legislation, this admin has done so far!

          • Kopen

            Sounds to me like this family willsoon own Capistrano .. With GOD in their corner who can defeat them .. everyone should be “Praying without ceasing on this one .. Christians can’t lose this battle ..
            GOD Bless America Let Freedom Ring

          • Dan az

            You’ve got that right.What eddie forgot to mention is their religion,Would that be the catholic church pulling the strings?Say the vatican?Which has always tried to convert the christians or kill them!

          • Angel Wannabe

            Dan az_ so true, Religion & Politics are Dangerous entities!

          • john

            DANAZ there are Christians who are catholic,mormon and all other religions that worship GOD. I am sure there are Christians in your church. This country is being taken over by the religion of satan,and all you can do is knock Catholics.Man, you got real class.

          • Angel Wannabe

            jon, the catholic church is waaaay more mixed up in this than most people realize. This isn’t about knocking anyones faith, we’ve ALL been duped!!!

          • john

            ANGEL You are more right than you know about being duped.I have been doing some heavy reading of ancient writings.It is amazing but,no one wants to believe it. Puts a whole new light on things.

          • Angel Wannabe

            john__ most all the regulars on here know it too, thats why we keep spreading the word!___there is a lot to read out there___

            I’ll share this link_-if ya want the best in original American History, David Barton is it! That man is a walking History book, have to listen when he talks though B/C he talks fast__ check out the link, you won’t be disappointed___


          • Dan az

            Sorry John
            I guess I can’t find that link for ya but some one here will probably have it.If not then start researching the vatican history and see what they have been doing lately and who is truly pulling the strings in the NWO and the feds.I couldn’t believe it either until I started looking things up.If you get into the NWO elites you’ll find that they have plans for a one world religion.Guess what that is?Check out the Illuminati and free masons while your at it.It will blow your mind.Oh and as far as my church goes I don’t have one and never have.I too am still a christian even though I don’t believe in going to church.Wasn’t it christ that said your body is your church?Well Thats what I believe to.And I have looked at all of them even the ones that you probably wouldn’t,And I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on things and life in general.

          • Kate8

            Dan az – Here is an intersting site:


          • Kate8

            Dan az – And this one:


            Once you grasp what the secret is, the key, it all falls into place.


          • http://?? Joe H.

            Dan az,
            Remember, God said where two or more of you gather, I am there. If your body is your church, then how does that happen? I’m not mocking you, I’m serious.

          • Dan az

            Those where good ones!It looks to me like they have been planning their survival with our tax dollars for a few years now.I would not be surprised to see marshal law come to reality with in the next month or two.And that would be when they go underground.They will have their guards protecting their whole in the ground by way of either his civilian army or UN troops.They can hide but in reality they fug their own grave.I would rather watch the show then hide my head in the ground like little ants.They might survive but why to repopulate the earth with the same people that took us all here to this point.I feel sorry for them because they will be missing the only thing that will have brought the entire world together as one mind and soul united finally.

        • Harold Mawyer

          Did not Jesus The Christ, tell His followerers that they would be told what to say,, by Holy Spirit,when questioned by the riligious leaders of their time? Sme hold true today, for God is the same yesterday, today and forever! He never sleeps nor does He ever slumber!!

          • Dan az

            Excellent!!!I’m saving that site to check out the rest.
            I’m not quite sure what your saying.But my wife of forty years makes two.She was a catholic sense childhood but now she’s like me,we believe in the energy that God is and we make our own destiny good or bad and we learn from it.Every day is something special and I’m just taking it all in.I’m not sure if deity fits but I have always loved science and have always questioned every faith that man has written for people that need control in there lives.With out that I feel that Kaos would prevail.So If someone needs it I say great for you but don’t force it on me.And I wont force what I believe on you.Really I think everyone should have faith be it energy or what ever.I sense things on planes that are hard to explain so I just don’t say anything.God to me is pure energy and all things are made of it.Even time its self.This is just a class room that we all are in to learn the truth.This is not the end just a beginning for all of us.Death dosen’t scare me,I have died before and not just once.So you see I can call myself a christen because I do believe in God,just in a different way than some.I can only hope now that the people here don’t take it in the wrong way.Because I’m happy and that’s what counts.

          • Dan az

            After looking up deity it is differently the wrong word but I think you get what I’m saying.There is a really good site that would explain it allot better if your up to it.Its long but well worth it.I have always seen things in this perspective sense a child and this site puts it into words that I can’t explain.I’m not a writer.And have always had a hard time explaining things.

          • Dan az

            See what I mean the word is difinitely

          • Dan az

            I guess it would help if I put the site up huh?
            Whats really embarrassing is this will be here all weekend. :)

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Dan az,
            If you truely believe it and believe in god almighty, then please, don’t be embarrassed!! I only asked as I didn’t understand what you were saying. there are others here, one in particular that have stated their beliefs and then later stated something exactly the opposite!! This does not, in any way reflect on you or your wife!! God Bless!

          • Karolyn

            Dan – I have seen your video before. Why would you be embarrassed? It would seem that we are more alike than has been previously thought. I too believe in a “God” more like the concept you have indicated. I have been studying for years (not to the extent Kate has). We are all one! who cares what anyone else thinks. What resonates we one is what is right for that one. It’s what you feel in your heart is right that matters.

          • Karolyn
          • Kate8

            Karolyn – Loved the video. There are many such messages now of this type. Check out anything with Gregg Braden (he was the first clip on the workings of the mind) or David Sereda, also. They are two of the finest and highest minds alive today.

            What we have to be aware of is that, as with religious messages, the PTB have hijacked these things for their own purposes in order to lure us into the idea of world government as a move toward “oneness”. That is why it is so important to see the machinations of darkness, so that we aren’t lured into their deceit. When we see the “evil” in the world, we must recognize it as the manifestation of our own collective inner darkness, and own it. We have been living in a fragmented state as beings, and it is only by recognizing our polarity that we can return to simply BEING.

            What we need to remember, also, is that the answer will not come from a human source. There will be no political solution. The world is in, as Scripture says, a time of “great perplexity”. The answer IS coming, however, from a Divine Source. Man’s manipulations will utterly and devastatingly fail, and we must not put our hope in them.

            In all times of culmination, humanity “splits” into intensely polarized factions. It is part of the process (witness the life of a single cell) of expansion. Revelation refers to it as the “harvest”, the “separating of the wheat from the chaff”, the “sheep from the goats”. As shown in the video, there have been many civilizations which appear to have been suddenly wiped out by some cosmic event. This is the entire message of the Bible, and other cultural holy writings, as well.

            I recall looking with amazement (while traveling) at huge mountains which look as though they were once lifted up and turned on their sides. Earth is about to be “turned under”, as a crop field. Washed clean. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken. Pummeled. This is a real, recurring cosmic event. These cycles are messages encoded in all scriptures.

            The “intense white light” is another clue. The Hopi’s return of the “True White Brother”…

            Time to get ready.

          • Karolyn

            Kate – What is your take on the radio signals supposedly coming from Elenin? There is just too much going on for me to get any kind of clear picture – if it is possible to get a clear picture! So many different opinions and theories. I am ready for whatever happens and am not afraid.

          • Kate8

            Karolyn – I’ve heard some crazy things about Elenin. I don’t know what to make of it, either. Last I heard it was breaking up into 2 pieces (Two Witnesses?). So I looked to see what I could find, and it seems that there is yet another take on Elenin:


            In any case, Elenin seems to be a comet (or something) that is preceding Nibiru, which is the REAL object of concern.

            Do you have a link for that? I heard something similar on Coast to Coast awhile back, but at the time I just shrugged it off.

            I don’t know when, either, but I’m convinced it’s not too far off. I have some ideas, but then…In any case, I’m ready, too.

          • Kate8

            Karolyn – There is a ton of disinformation about this, so you have to sift through. I’ve read some books, as well, so I’m starting to get what I think is a pretty good picture of what’s happening.

            Here is an example of how NASA attempts to hide this from us:


          • Karolyn

            Kate – Here’s a link to one of the Elenin radio signal videos. There are a few – I also heard an interview on YouTube with someone who had other info about some odd forcefield around it. So much to digest. Mor info every day. It’s hard to sift through everything!

          • Kate8

            Karolyn – Too weird. Did you read the comments? One guy says he played with the signals and it says “One world Earth”. It’s just so hard to know what’s real and what isn’t in today’s world of technology and illusion.

            Here is another radio interview with a guy who says that Elenin is an artificial intelligence. Meaning that it was placed up there. Who knows.

            Some speculate that it was placed there when Nibiru last came through on a collision course with Earth by those who were here then. I sure don’t have any answers about that one. All I know is that what is happening fits ancient scriptures to a tee.

            When Daniel received his visions, he asked God what they meant. He told Daniel that it was not for him to know, that man would not understand any of these things until right before the end comes. Now that we have been able to see it coming, it all begins to make sense.

            I have been reading so fast that I haven’t written down the exact passages, but one in Isaiah describes it as looking like a Jasper, or sardine stone, surrounded by green…can’t remember exactly right now. Anyway, there is a photo of it, like infrared or something, where it looks red like jasper, surrounded by green…blew me away.

            Here’s another good one:


            Intriguing. Fascinating.

            There is another one which shows Nibiru where it looks exactly like a giant eye in the sky. I’m thinking maybe that’s where the ancients got the “eye of Horus” symbol. I’ve posted it twice but I don’t think anyone bothered to look at it. It was amazing.

          • Dan az

            Really uplifting to say the least.I think the event that is going to take place is what is needed for all of humanity.This is very interesting times that we are in.So many things are happening and people are awaking to this fact.I watched three of those from the site you left and will watch more when I have more time.Thanks

      • Brad


        Sorry to burst your bubble again but San Juan Capistrano has one Mayor, one pro tem Mayor and three city council members and 12 city council appointee’s. Here is their web site check it out , plus there is no political party identified for any member of the council to include Mayor. Nice try Eddie.

        • white tiger

          In California one may not run for city or county level office as a member of a given political party. All such offices are non-partisan. In reality, of course, the individuals running may be party members’ but that designation may not be shown on the ballot, and the vast majority of voters are ignorant of the candidates’ political party affiliation.

          • john

            Hey white Tiger.Like the name.Can we start a group called the white tigers like the black panthers,or would we be called racist?I think I would take the chance.

        • JD

          Brad you can’t fight the “exagerations” of the liberals with facts . They will always believe the stories that they pull out of that dark spot that the sun doesn’t shine on . Facts only incite hoots , screams , and feces flinging .

          • eddie47d

            No bubble burst here Brad Out of 178 city council member in Orange County only 19 are Democrats. I should have phrased the figures better. San Juan Capistrano is still a majority Republican city. I didn’t turn it into a political issue Angle Wannabe that was By George. So no exaggeration JD but nice try!

          • Brad

            And again Eddie the article is discussing the City of San Juan Capistrano and it’s blatent disrespect of a citizens 1st amendment rights, it’s not about Orange County and the number of city counsil seats what party has or doesn’t have.

          • Dan az

            Don’t pay much attention to edduh he hasn’t a clue to what orange county is.Nor how large an area that it covers.It’s sorta like saying sanfransisco is nothern calif. Nice try eddddddduuuuuh!

          • eddie47d

            Don’t flatter yourself Dan with poppycock. Your analogy would be more in the liking to the right wing claiming the Northeast is a Liberal bastion. San Juan Capistrano is in a Conservative area with a Conservative city council. I meant nothing else.

      • DaveH

        From Eddie “There are 178 council members and only 19 are Democrats”. What are you talking about, Eddie? There are only 5 city council members in San Juan Capistrano.

        • eddie47d

          Put on your reading glasses Dave H. ORANGE County has 178 city council members within that county. San Juan Capistrano is a city in that county. Hell Dave I thought you knew it all so 19 Democrats don’t have much say on those city councils. By George is the one who claimed it was the fault of the Liberals and I showed that it was a heavily Republican area. Don’t worry Dave you weren’t the only one to go straight for the snippy remarks.

  • Mary

    This is their private home. They have a perfect right to have a prayer meeting, Bible study, watch a football game with friends, have a barbecue, or anything else they want to do with friends in their home. I don’t understand the reasoning of the elected elite in their town. We do the same thing in our community. We even have back yard Bible clubs for the kids, and religious services in the park where we live.

    • eddie47d

      You are so correct Mary and everyone should have the freedom to assemble and worship as they please. Unless any group is disrupting a neighborhood then public officials should butt out.

    • Harold Mawyer

      Privacy? Ha!! With “big brother in DC” watching your every move, emails etc, privacy is a long ago departed freedom!

  • oldbill

    Rights are ink on paper, just like our money. When we intentional irritate any level of government, city, county, state, or national, we are irritating the god of this world. The true Christians (as were the Israelites when taken captive for centuries at a time) were forced to practice their religion in secret, or they were killed by the government, either at their meeting place, in captivity, or being fed to the lions in the arena. If a Christian is not prepared to be a martyr, he/she should practice his faith in the manner prescribed by law or in secret.

    • home boy

      i’m assuming that the true god of this world is satan.

      • john

        satan has been running this world since the fall of Adam and Eve.But that is about to change.However,things are going to get much worse before they get better.Get right with GOD now and stay true to the end and you will be fine.

        • Harold Mawyer

          We must study the same Bible!!

    • Forrest Gump

      I don’t know the whole story in the situation about which this article was written, as was stated by someone already, but the idea you just put forth is ludicrous. Daniel kept praying even though it was outlawed. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down to the idol, even though it was an imperial mandate that they do so. Peter and John was taken and whipped and forbidden from preaching in the name of Jesus and they replied, “Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”
      The person who replied to your post before me had it right. The god of this world is one of the biblical references to our adversary, the devil. Don’t presume to teach the bible, for much will be required of you.

  • JohnWIS

    This is beyond absurd…ridiculous…and any other word to describe.

    I personally, would tell the elected “officials”, to shove it up their wazzoo.


    The question that should be considered is how such an ordinance was allowed to come into existance in the first place. I know of communities that limit the number of church buildings and there locations within a geological location; but to determine who and how many I can have in MY home for a Bible study is indicitive of what I would expect in communist China or what once was Russia. I wonder if the city council tolerates a group of muslims getting to gether to pray to allah; they obviously do not seem to have a problem with football worshipers gathering at the alter of the TV. America should be very concerned; we allow our freedoms to erode in the fields of complacency.

    • john

      That is exactly what happened and is still happening. Instead of thanking vets for their service,why don’t you show them your appreciation by getting off your butts and rebel against the enemies of this country who are trying to destroy what we have fought and died for.

  • Pilot

    Here is what appears to be a little known quote from what was until recently considered the Law of the Land (The Constitution).
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    From Wikipedia: Originally, the First Amendment applied only to laws enacted by the Congress. However, starting with Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652 (1925), the Supreme Court has held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies the First Amendment to each state, including any local government.
    Seems to me, this is an open-and-shut case.

    • Morduin00


      Very well done and well researched. Kudos to you.

      Its time we take our country back from the secularists. Freedom of religion applies to all religions and non-religions (atheism). As long as the assembled persons do not create a public safety issue LEAVE THEM ALONE!

  • Monte

    I am in total agreement with your concern, Bob. Jesus said (to paraphrase) give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s. Unfortunately, our leftist elite believe everything is Caesar’s. In the Soviet Union, the Communist Manifesto replaced the Bible and the state replaced God. That is, the worship of our Lord was usurped by the state. State worship was to be imposed. Look around you. Is this not the direction this country has taken? Whether we, the people, will let that happen is the crux. Can the propaganda, brain-washing, and hand-outs divert us from our founding principle? If so, then a brutal and unimagined slavery awaits us. I know most of the readers of these columns are not Southern, but a quote of Robert E. Lee seems truly prophetic (to paraphrase, again): The reasons the South fought will reassert themselves. We will discover a government that is despotic at home and aggressive abroad.

    He was, indeed, correct. But what we plan to do about it, seems to me, makes all the difference.

  • John V.

    I deplore the city’s decision BUT it is a problem for them (the residents of San Juan Capistrano) to settle, not the Fed, maybe not even the state unless California has a passage in their constitution that addresses the matter legislatively. Our federal congress is charged to butt out of religious matters. Only when civil justice is being threathened should the fed interfere and then on the judicial level to guarantee justice not decide the outcome. These parts of social life were left to the states and to the people to manage for themselves. The citizens of the city must “man up” OR MOVE to another city. Then the city can learn its fate AFTER having abolished religious practices (or having limited them). Only in this way can religious and civil life be balanced.

  • DavidH

    We are all GODs Army on Earth…

  • DavidH

    We are all GODs Army on Earth…

    Those who beat their weapons into plows, serve those that

  • DavidH

    We are GODs Army on Earth…

    Those that beat their weapons into plows,
    serve those that didn’t…

  • http://NA Jacquelyn

    Shocking bigotry!!! How could this happen in this ‘free’ country???

  • Free Mind

    Don’t act surprised…this was prophesised. Hang onto your Bible and keep the gun in the other hand.

    • home boy

      this is just the beginning of the distruction of babylon the great , the empire of false religion, as talked about in the book of revelation chapter 17 and 18. this will be world wide.

  • JD

    At least its a crime punishable by fines and not meritting a SWAT response . When the fines don’t work or go unpaid you can bet the dogs will be unleashed .

  • Michael

    By the wording of this law, no more friends over for Monday night football, no more Project Runway night, no poker night….all of it illegal now.

  • Michael

    By the wording of this law, no more friends over for Monday night football, no more Project Runway night, no poker night….all of it illegal now. Let’s AT LEAST make sure the law is applied evenly.

    • Kate8

      Michael – This is another step in the eroding of the right to peaceably assemble. You can be sure that ALL private assemblies will be eliminated eventually.

      Of course, it won’t apply to those who are being incited to gather in the streets to wreak havoc on the peaceable Americans. Like SEIU.

      • 45caliber

        How many places in the US now insist that you cannot have ANY assembly UNLESS you pay for a permit? That is “required government permission that you must pay for”. Definately against the Constitution since they can turn down the permit for any gathering they don’t want to have done.

  • Karolyn

    Here’s a little more about it.

  • 45caliber

    This is the fourth or fifth time I’ve heard of some town in California try this. And every previous time, it has been ruled illegal. I suspect it will be this time too, particularly since they have the preceedence of the previous cases.

    • Kate8

      45 – This is how it’s always done. They just keep coming back, time after time, until they wear everyone down and get the result they want.

      Just look at how many times the gay marriage issue comes up to a vote, then goes before the courts, the legislatures, the vote again, back to the courts…

      Same with the healthcare debates, food “safety” debates, gun control, sexual indoctrination in schools…you could go on and on. They won’t stop until EVERTTHING is turned on its head.

      It’s all a sham, anyway. We are being steamrolled. They are just making it look like we are outnumbered but, in the end, we always back down. And they know this about us.

      • Monte

        Interestingly, in every situation where ‘gay’ marriage has come under popular referendum it has been voted down with huge margins. The courts then over-rule the people and impose it upon the population anyway. In every state it exists, it has been imposed against majority rule. Think about it. Our open borders stand open in opposition to the majority. Was the ruling against school prayer the work of the majority? Ten commandments removal? ObamaCare? The list goes on and on. Yet, people just stand by and watch.

        • Dan az

          Would would you like for all to do?Blood in the streets march on Washington and hang them all?If you haven’t noticed thats exactly what they want!All it takes is one thing and marshal law trumps the constitution and bill of rights.All of us here are doing what we can to spread the word of what is going on.The awakening is happening finally and the only thing that we can do right now is keep spreading the truth and showing the facts.This election will show all that we the people do have a say and that’s what bothers them.They have done everything in their power to divide us and challenged us to start the riots.But we know what their next move is and if we can’t stop it at the polls then we also know that the war is on.So until then we just keep doing what we can and its showing in a big way.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Hear Hear..Dan Az! :)

          • afdbghq

            You are correct. This is all part of the “bottom up-top down” progran adcocated by those who surround Obama. They are just waiting for anyu excuse for the “Christians” to do anything that they could, in their eyes, construe as being anti anything so they can impose martial law and revoke all of our constitutional rights especially those who are Christian. What is funny is that this administration turns a blind eye to all the union and other liberal/leftists/progressive groups that are disrupting peoples rights (legislative meetings, etc,).

          • Kate8

            afd – Turning a blind eye, my foot. They’re instigating them.

  • Allen C.

    The time was foretold and has come. The government meddling in the personal lives of all Americans has happened. This is not the first time Christians have been attacked by the government in this country. This country’s citizens lost its FREEDOM OF PRIVACY and virtually all constitutional rights when the Bush regime took power. If you think otherwise, then you are as lost as a goose in a hail storm. While the so called ‘ Patriot Act ‘ has done little to protect this great land, it has caused more trouble than its worth. Now, you can and will be discriminated against for any reason. I know, I have been harassed for my beliefs. I live in a state where the people don;t care about religion.

    • 45caliber


      We lost all that long before Bush came along.

  • Ray

    John, you don’t think civil justice is being threatened here?! They are violating the United States Constitution. No government, state, federal, or local has any right to tell me I can’t have friends over and discuss whatever we want to discuss.

  • jim

    I wonder if the reaction of all these people would be the same if it were three people studing the Koran. I sure hope so in a land that supposed to tolerate religious freedom.

  • Alexis

    It’s coming people… The “R” word is being mentioned more and more in polite company. We’ve got to start telling government that they work for us and not the other way around. If not, I fear something is coming that will be the tipping point between a civil society and one of semi or total anarchy. Once the system that is supposed to protect civil liberties is corrupted by such “laws”, overbearing bureaucrats and unnecessary violent response by police, then perhaps it is time for the tar and feathers to be brought out and those officials who have abused their office be subject to the treatment they most richly deserve. This sort of thing is taking place in almost every level of government from the federal to the municipal level. It cannot be allowed to continue. It’s out of control and reasonability. We cannot allow usurping of our rights by these petty tyrants. Don’t be surprised when people get the gut full and begin to fight back.

    • GaryTraditionalUltraConservative

      It is only a matter of time, when there will be a situation or incident where some backward, ignorant and indifferent of the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, misguided, abusive, dangerously and fatally over confident, dangerously and fatally wreckless tyrannical despotic government officials backed up by some ignoramous and corrupt servile Law enforcement minion thugs will both be caught red handed in the act of trampling on and violating some individual’s or group of people’s Constitutionally Guaranteed Rights and will be met with and confronted by a group of people who will be using and exercising their own Constitutionally Guaranteed Second Amendment Rights by physically intervening on behalf of the person or persons whose Constitutionally Guaranteed Rights are being brazenly, blatantly and nakedly trampled on and violated by those Tyrannical government officials who will be cowardly hiding behind their paid corrupt servile Law enforcement minion thugs. At the same time and at the same place, those very angry and justly vengeful Pro-Constitution Enforcement Patriots, using and exercising their Constitutionally Guaranteed Second Amendment Rights, will be Constitutionally Legally armed to the teeth and they will be intentionally and deliberately physically standing directly between the government Tyrants, who will be hiding behind their corrupt Law enforcement servile minion thugs, and the intended helpless and defenseless victims who the government Tyrants have targeted to infringe on and to physically deny their Constitutionally Guaranteed Rights. This type of scenario could be repeated again and again and again in many different Municipalities, Towns, Cities, Counties and States all across the Constitutional Republic Of The United States resulting in a Popular Pro-Constitution Enforcement De-Facto Revolution against any type of Tyranny that decides to and actually does cross the line into UnConstitutional Territory. All of those despotic government Tyrants along with all of their corrupt servile Law enforcement minion thugs everywhere need to understand that if they continue to wrecklessly gamble and to wrecklessly call the bluff of any Pro-Constitution Enforcement Patriots anywhere at any time, those Tyrants along with their corrupt Law enforcement minion serf thugs will be tragically miscalculating by very seriously dangerously over estimating themselves and at the very same time and place by very seriously dangerously under estimating the Pro-Constitution Enforcement Patriots who will be opposing any and all types, shapes, varieties and forms of Tyranny where ever and whenever those Pro-Constitution Enforcement Patriots uncover it, expose it, confront it and destroy it. When the Tyrannical government’s corrupt Law Enforcement servile minion thugs shoot first, and yes of course their corrupt Law enforcement servile minion thugs will shoot first, that is when the gloves come off completely and payback begins. And that payback will be a very big bad ugly bitch exactly the same as the very big bad ungly bitch payback that Napoleon Bonaparte experienced and received at his own “Waterloo”. It’s all just a matter of time of when and where it will begin.

  • http://personallibertydigest mad in america

    How many rights do we have to loose berore we get mad enough to do something about it.It’s their home I for one am glad God lives there.Maybe we should send them a bible and a copy of the constitution,maybe they will learn some very important things,I will pray for them and the city.

  • Angel Wannabe

    I am the only one having trouble with this webpage today????

    Can’t display webpage, errors????…..postings not going up?

    My computer??

    • Karolyn

      Angel – I’ve had problem with it being slow for a long time, but today it is just impossible! I have tried to post several times to no avail. Wonder if this one will come through!

      • Angel Wannabe

        karolyn, its crazy today, I can’t refresh and have to keep going in and out of the page..?? too can’t respond to posts..internet police????

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Angel Wannabe,
          I’ve had it happen to me going from one thread to another. I think either PLD is having a bit of a problem or the net is having problems.

    • Personal Liberty Support

      To Angel Wannabe and our other faithful readers:

      We apologize for the trouble you are having but we are experiencing serious technical issues today. Our staff is working diligently to solve them. Thanks for your patience.

      Personal Liberty Support

      • Angel Wannabe

        Thanks Bob and Staff,…we’ll keep trying! :)

    • Dan az

      Me too!I’ve been on here sense about nine trying to get through and I get the same thing.Lets see if Bob can figure it out because the last thing I noticed when I finally got back on was that the commenters box was gone.Sounds like a sever problem.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Dan Az, It’s still gliching a little for me here and there, but other wise, its a lot better than it was this morning!

        • Dan az

          Same here!This morning I decided to speed up the computer with a program that I bought and when I finished I came here of course and I thought that I screwed it up. :)I at least feel a little better now it seems to be working better.Tanks You Guys glad your on top of it!

  • http://yahoo olerocker

    Hmm, why was this ‘LAW’needed in the first place….where is the Aclu, what right has an unvited guess to enter a persons house…it appears that California is Socilist state, nex the KBG will be visting the tupperware parties and arresting all for illegal meetings….

    • bubba

      hey,Ole…. California IS a Socialist state… that’s why they’re broke !

    • 45caliber

      If you check, there are attacks on every part of the Constitution from every level of government. It is easy to find examples of violations of every part of the Consititution somewhere. They keep trying in an effort to convince us that we have NO rights except for those they give us. And we should be grateful for those. Grateful enough that we won’t object to any tax they want to foster on us or any law and restriction.

      • Angel Wannabe

        45_ there coming after the Christians B/C God IS where the heart of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is, __”any NAYSAYERS, Check the Declaration”__If they can silence Gods people, they know the Constitution will be Null and Void, then they the elites become the Gods!!!__ WAKE THE H*LL UP FOLKS!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Angel Wannabe,
          an enormous AMEN to that!!!

  • TML

    This is ridiculous. Since a gathering in a private home usually doesn’t attract attention, it makes me wonder who began pushing this, and why.

    This is not only a 1st Amendment issue; it pertains to the 4th as well. Unless they are doing animal sacrifices, or harming someone physically or financially, this is a blatant violation of those Amendments, with the information given.

    • john

      there are only two types of people who would do this.Satanists or queers. neither can stand the mention of Jesus,GOD or the bible

      • Karolyn

        Homosexuals can be just as Christian as anybody else. One good friend of mine is a gay conservative Christian with whom I have had many great debates. :-) He can compete with anyone here when it comes to being a good Christian. And, of course, you must know that there are churches who do accept gays.

        • Studying the Bible

          And those churches are clearly in contradiction to what the Bible has to say about the subject. Of course, I find it interesting that the people that clearly love the homosexuals the most are the people accused of hating or fearing them.

          Anyone that actually cares to study the Bible knows from that study that living a homosexual lifestyle is completely inconsistent and incompatible with a Christian life. This is not to say that there are not Christians that were formerly homosexual, or even continue to have struggles with temptation to follow the homosexual lifestyle. All Christians continue to have some struggles with the sins that tempt them most until death frees them from such temptation. They cannot, however, deliberately and willfully embrace that lifestyle and have any legitimacy to their claim that they are Christians.

          (To simplify that: The Bible says homosexuality is a sin and that those that practice such, lacking repentance, will not go to heaven, but rather go to hell. (It also says that those that practice homosexuality already know this, too.) The Bible also says that Christians do not follow and pursue an unrepentant, sinful lifestyle. This is not to say that Christians are perfect. They are flawed people, like everyone else. Christians stumble, falter, and fail. They do not pursue or advocate sinful choices and lifestyles, though. Therefore, to pursue, follow, accept, or endorse homosexuality is to turn away from and stand against everything that the Bible says Christianity is. This does not mean that Christians hate or fear homosexuals. By desiring and attempting to reach Homosexuals and free them from a sinful lifestyle, Christians are showing the deepest love for them.)

          • Jana

            Sadly, out of the seven churches in the Book of Revelation, ony 2 were not found wanting.
            In Rev. starting with Chapter two, the seven candlesticks represents the seven churches.

            this is a sampling:Rev 2:4-7 to the Church of Ephesus
            4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
            5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
            6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
            7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

            The two churches that were found righteous in God’s eyes were the Chruch of Smyrna and the Church of Philadelphia.

            God told these churches what they needed to do to get back to their first love and be obedient to the Truth.

            Rev 2:18-24
            18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
            19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
            20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
            21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
            22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
            23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
            24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

        • Tim Orner

          Karolyn, I Corinthians 6 verse 9 Do you not know, that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of GOD? Do not be deceived, Neither fornicators, nor idoliters, nor adulterers, nor “HOMOSEXUALS”, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of GOD. GOD HATES the practice of homosexuality, but LOVES the homosexual. Homosexuality is the ultimate slap on GOD’s face. He created both man and woman to perpetuate the human race, and to establish marriage and the family. I personally have 2 male friends that I love to the point that I would die for them. The only difference between myself and the homosexual is that I have NO desire to put my ____ in their buts. I’m sorry, but this form of sex can NEVER bring another human being into this world. Instead of patonizing the homosexual, we should be making the effort of restore that person to a normal way of life. GOD died on the cross of calvery for the homosexual so that they can also experience forgiveness and be restored to experience a normal Godly relationship with a woman.

          • Kate8

            The fact that such practice can be a deadly health hazard should be a clue.

            In fact, this is true of immoral hetero behavior, as well.

            We are supposed to be higher than the animals. These days, not so much.

          • Christin

            Tim… AMEN!

  • Baba

    I have no other word for this kind of reaction to lawful abiding citizens, especially in their very own homes, but to call the law “ASININE.” It appears that the law enforcers cannot stop drugs, illegals from entering the U.S.A., stop Muslims from taking over streets to praise their “whatever”, but they can pick on the easy targets for doing nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong. Preventing people from private Bible Study, non-disruptive, is not acceptable! Whoops! I almost forgot that this news comes out of California. Well, there you go.

  • RThiede

    Welcome to our world. As a Lakota (sioux) practicer. Our spirituality has been under scrutiny for well over a couple hundred years. We weren’t even allowed to practice our faith in the open until 1978. In the 1990′s the Fed again tried to stop us by coming onto the reservations and shutting down our ceramonies by gun point. That back fired on them in 92 when they were met with the same resistance. Currently our situation involves the ousting of “white people” from the ceramonies that we practice and the threat of violence is always in the air from the Fed.
    The first amendment guarantees our right to “freedom of religion” but, in acctuallity It is “freedom of the religion that they chose”.
    Welcome to the fight…

    • Kate8

      RThiede – Wow. I’d forgotten about that.

      I have many Native American friends (and white friends who like to follow that path) who have participated in ceremonies over the years, and I’m having vague memories of an incident in S. Dakota, I think it was, where the feds went in to shut them down. I was stunned.

      BTW, do the Lakotas have a prophecy similar to the Hopi of the return of the True White Brother? I’m beginning to understand the key to scripture and prophecies from all cultures. We all have more in common than we’ve been led to believe, and it’s not at all what people think. Once you have the key, you can read scriptures and IT ALL MAKES SENSE. It is one message, repeated over and over…and once one begins to get the significance of numbers…

      The Native Elders know it. The Vatican knows it. Many of the elite know it. But most clergy have no clue at all, and even if they did, they would probably not tell us.

      It’s also known by those in high places, and they have made plans to protect themselves while leaving us to perish. Of course, it won’t work out for them.

      • Dan az

        I would like to hear that too.What numbers are you talking about?

        • Kate8

          Dan az – Oh, how I wish I could speak freely to you. There is so much to share…too much for here, really. Besides, I’d have to put up with the lefty mockers, and many Christians would be very upset with me. But, I’m telling you, the churches have not been teaching us the Truth. In fact, what we’ve been taught was crafted to PREVENT US FROM FINDING THE TRUTH.

          We’ve been sold a bill of goods all around. While there is some very disturbing revelation, there is also some of the best news ever. I don’t know about you, but I always felt that we weren’t getting the full scoop…things just didn’t make enough sense. Something was being left out…and I was right.

          It is so critical now for people to know these things. It was Sister Lucia’s 3rd message, and the Vatican was instructed to reveal it to the people in the ’60s, but the Pope decided that we couldn’t be told. It would have had great ramifications to the powers being wielded by the Vatican and world elite, and would have made implementation of their dastardly plans very difficult for them. Sister Lucia was murdered and replaced with a stand-in (who looks nothing like her) to prevent her from revealing this message.

          When you know this, all of the messages in Scripture makes total sense. You will be able to read them with whole new eyes! The stories are not what we’ve always thought! And the verses are arranged in coded numbers…

          I’m reading the OT and NT like never before. Where it had seemed like so much repetition of dubious information, I now read it with wonder and awe. I spend every moment I can reading…I can’t put it down.

          There must be a way I can get my email to you so we can talk. People need to know this. And there is no time to waste…

          • Karolyn

            Kate – Sounds fascinating! I am so happy for you! (truly)

          • Kate8

            Karolyn – Thanks, but I will tell you this: It’s not what you are thinking, either.

            I am not speaking of any NewAge psychobabble or intellectual esoterica. That is just more diversion. I am speaking of something very real, very tangible, very BIG, and very close.

            It also has to do with (indirectly) the similarities between cultural “mythologies”. Rather than being proof that they are simply stories stolen from earlier mythologies, they are cultural interpretations of the same events. I suspect they were “mythologized” in order to conceal the real meaning from those who would destroy this knowledge, and preserve it for those who could interpret it. Plus, they were attempting to paint a picture in terms people could relate to. It helps if one has some knowledge of ancient creation stories, what they mean, and how they relate.

            The NewAge has been just as deceived and misled as the rest of us. The revelation is there for those who seek it out, and who aren’t afraid to look for it, WHATEVER it is. But most will never find it. Like any truth, it’s hidden in plain sight.

          • Karolyn

            Kate – why don’t you start your own website? It sure sounds like you have the passion and enough information and want to get the word out. Then you could just post the link here.

          • Karolyn

            Kate – In saying “NewAge psychobabble or intellectual esoterica.” you are selling people short. If you look back to the 80s, when I got started on my path of “enlightenment,” you can see how many have progressed to encompass much more in their teachings. It is natural progression. The term “New Age psychobabble” is pretty much passe these days. More and more people are looking for the real Truth rather than a quick fix. The word is out and the information is available for those who wish to find it.

          • Dan az

            my towns name and dan one word

          • Kate8

            Dan az – I took a stab, but got a failure notice.

            I thought your town was, perhaps, (Q). If so, are there any caps, or all lower case?

            Maybe the first letter of your town?

          • Jana

            Kate8 and Dan Az,
            I had set up an email that I don’t use much, and it has nothing in it that can reveal my ID. If you would like you can both email your addresses to me at that address and I will get each one to the other. I will not put it on here right now, unless you both want to do it.Let me know.
            Kate, I would be interested in seeing your information too. :)

          • Kate8

            Jana – That is so kind of you. I sent a message to the email address you gave me awhile back. Hope you get it.

            I will be sending more later. I am in a state of near overwhelm with what I am discovering, so I need to get organized. :)

          • Dan az

            all lower case.screw it ashforkdan

          • Christin


            I am fascinated, too, and have been following your thread and copying down websites.

            I have been thinking about the connections you have been talking about with the Romans, Native Americans, and the number code in the Bible.

            I would love to learn all that you are studying as well.

          • Christin

            Kate8… that note above was to you.

            (Touchy keys on my keypad and maybe sticky fingers.)

    • Christin


      Are you talking about the Massacre at Wounded Knee in South Dakota in Dec 1890 to Jan 1891, where Gen Nelson Miles ordered the 7th Cavalry (5000 troops) of the United States to put down the “Ghost Dancers” on the Lakota Reservation. Ghost Dance was a new religion that promised the return of the buffalo, the return of their ancestors, the old ways, and the white man would be washed away forever. They even had magic ghost dance skirts that were said to stop bullets (but they did not). Some were skeptical about the Ghost Dance, but the tribes in the Sioux nation were inspired by the messages of hope.

      • Dan az

        I watched a movie the other night called Hilgado I think thats how you pronounce it.It means big dog which was the name of the horse.They had that masacre in the movie.Great movie.It showed the truth about what took place that I never heard before.

        • Cawmun Cents

          I believe the term you are looking for is “Elk Dog”.
          That is what the natives called the horse.-CC.

  • Falcon99

    We as Christians can disagree and express disgust without unChristian language and attitudes. When we sink to the level of the devil and his minions, we are no better than they are.

    • Christin

      You are SO right… thank you for that comment, Falcon99.

  • Janet

    What would happen if this applied to Muslims?


    • TML

      I’m sure the Christians would be supporting the city if it were Muslims, but it would still be a violation of 1st Amendment rights.

      • Who cares if they meet?

        I have no problem with them meeting in their own homes, or even in mosques. Of course, Islam is not really a religion. It is a political system hiding in the guise of claiming religion. That said, so long as they don’t try to enforce their laws or hold separate courts, if they want to peacefully follow the legal and religious elements of their system, I’ve got no problem with it. Pray? Let them pray. (Though I am generally opposed to the call to prayer, at least in areas where churches are prohibited from ringing bells and the like, which happened in the Detroit area.)

        I do object to them insisting on special treatment, though.

      • Jana

        The Muslims would get it overturned. On Friday afternoon traffic is stopped outside of Mosques in New York while the Muslim men pour out in the streets to pray.(The Mosque isn’t big enough) Women are NOT permitted to walk down the street at this time. This takes about 10 to 15 minutes

      • Cawmun Cents

        We shoud pray every five minutes for a half an hour(especially when work should be being done).
        We should wear bombs,as religious regalia.
        We should play loud rock and roll music at odd hours of the day.
        We should have sex in public places irregardless of our sexual preferences.
        We should hurl insults continually at everyone who passes by while engaging in our “public relations.”
        We should claim that our religion makes us tax exempt,because it WILL be against our religion to pay taxes(of any kind).
        We will pass copious amounts of gas,whenever inside close spaces with others not affiliated with our religion.
        We will relieve ourselves where we stand as it is our belief that one should never be restricted from doing so immediately.
        We refuse to wear clothing of any kind at any time(exept of course when they tend to explode).
        We kill politicians,actors,and media personalities on sight.
        We Make the Capitol Building our Temple in Washington D.C.(primarily because Congress shall make no laws prohibiting….so on so forth).
        We must necessarily draft a book that contains all these rules and practices so that it lends legitimacy to our religion.
        Now on to religiosity!

        • Jana

          Cawmun Cents, :) :)

  • Mirage

    “Busted for Being a Christian”: what hilarious propaganda.
    Apparently when people of other faiths don’t want to subject themselves and their children to Christian teachings, society is somehow taking some god given right from Christian’s, and their attempts to impose their will on others?
    The religious right needs to get used to the fact that they don’t have the right to impose their religion on the rest of us.
    The R.R. should appreciate that fact that they have the freedom to worship in their churches, at home, and extend people of other faiths (Agnosticism, Atheism, etc.) the same privacy and rights.
    Non-believers do not appreciate the religious right’s attempts of force-feeding the rest of us their religion via the courts, prayer in school, etc.
    Seperation of church and state should be maintained, after all, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU READ ABOUT AN ATHEIST BLOWING UP AN ABORTION CLINIC???

    • Angel Wannabe

      Your a Wack Job Mirage, they were in they’re own home!__and your just a another Paid Progressive junkie, trying tweek the religious masses and fire us up all the more__take a powder & get lost!!!

    • TML

      ““Busted for Being a Christian”: what hilarious propaganda.”

      I don’t see any religious propaganda in this article.

      “Apparently when people of other faiths don’t want to subject themselves and their children to Christian teachings, society is somehow taking some god given right from Christian’s, and their attempts to impose their will on others?”

      No… in a free society, error of opinion should be tolerated, where reason is left free to combat it.

      “The religious right needs to get used to the fact that they don’t have the right to impose their religion on the rest of us.”

      As Thomas Jefferson might say… It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there is one god, many gods, or no gods… it neither breaks my leg, or picks my pocket.

      “The R.R. should appreciate that fact that they have the freedom to worship in their churches, at home, and extend people of other faiths (Agnosticism, Atheism, etc.) the same privacy and rights.”

      This is true… although I doubt Agnosticism or Atheism is even considered as a “faith” (as in a religion) even by those who hold the views of those labels.

      “Non-believers do not appreciate the religious right’s attempts of force-feeding the rest of us their religion via the courts, prayer in school, etc.”

      No one should be forced to pray, anymore than they should be forced not to. Restricting other’s right to pray in school (for example) if they choose, is as much a violation of the 1st Amendment, as those who seek to keep prayer out of schools.

      “Separation of church and state should be maintained”

      Yes, it should… but you must remember that the separation of church and state comes from the 1st Amendment, in which, Congress shall make no law respecting or prohibiting. You can’t make a law that prohibits religion, without being as bad as those who seek to make laws respecting them.

      • TML

        Correction: Restricting other’s right to pray in school (for example) if they choose, is as much a violation of the 1st Amendment, as those who seek to *force prayer *in schools.

    • daniel

      Mirage is a good name for you. The law is unconstitutional on a variety of grounds but I digress. Also the term you should use is non-theist. Atheist is being phased out.
      In citing the phrase “separation of church and state” you demonstrate an over reliance on humanist bigotry. That is a quote lifted (and used out of context) from a reply to the Danbury baptist church by Thomas Jefferson. The intent (if you read the whole letter) was to re-assure them that the congress had no power to institute a law concerning the establishment of a national church nor a “pew tax”.
      I have read a lot of Thomas Jeffersons’ letters as well as documents from the landing on Plymouth Rock to now. Outside of these documents and letters being quit eloquent they were also very exacting as to what they meant.
      I suggest you start studying them then get back to me. You see if I choose to pray outside I can. If you don’t want to hear it you don’t have to listen. That is your choice and the law. If you tell me where I can pray so you can’t hear it that is illegal. It is about choice not force. I do not like rap music. I just can’t make anybody not play it where I am. It is the same thing.

    • afdbghq

      The First Amendment states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” No where in the Constitution is the phrase separation of church and state to be found. The part that says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” was specifically put in in order to prevent the government from establishing a national religion like was done in England when they established the Church of England. This country was founded on Jewish-Christian beliefs. All one has to do is to read the many letters and other documents by the founding fathers to understand this. The founding fathers would never start any meeting without first saying a prayer than they would have ventured out in public completely nude. They understood that the only way this country would continue to exist as they envisioned it was if the people held firm to faith (Christian) first. One only has to look at what has and is continuing to happen in this country (school shootings, rampant violence, destruction of marriage, etc.) since government removed prayer, discipline, and the Pledge of Allegiance from our schools.

  • Dean C

    Perhaps the fine is because this town was formed by the catholic church and the the catholic heirarchy does NOT want people studying the bible on their own because that would teach them of all the false traditions that the catholic church teaches. If you don’t believe it, why do you think over 50 million christians were put to death by the catholic church in the most horrible torturous ways imaginable during the dark ages for no other reason than opposing catholic falsehoods based on their own study of the truths in the bible.

  • Caroline

    San Juan Capistrano, San Diego — both California — land of fruits and nuts! By “a regular gathering of more than three people,” what about a family of 4 who regularly says prayers together at home and Grace before meals — would that also be considered an illegal gathering? I don’t see these people claiming the home as a church and asking for tax-exempt status! What about a group of school kids forming a study group at home — would this also be an illegal assembly and designated as a “school?” Whatever you do in your own home or backyard, as long as the action is not harming anyone else, is none of the government’s business. We need to take back this country now in the 2011-2012 elections. It does not matter what side of the fence the politicians sit on, they’re still two sides of the same coin! Vote results — not retoric!

  • simian pete

    On the other hand, Christianity is still the fastest growing religion in the world !!!

    The US Constitution outlaws “Caesar”. It seems the government “officials” are just retards. I hope these Christians sue them all – the government and the government officials personally !!!

    This ain’t “ROME” ! This is the USA ! NO CAESARS allowed ! Kings and Emperors are outlawed. NO SOVEREIGNS HERE ! JUST FREEMEN !

  • Todd Kreigh

    The Religious Right is a dumb myth, Mirage. You liberals are still riffing on the Jerry Falwell “Moral Majority” thing. That ended in the 80′s. Falwell died. You don’t have to worry about bible-thumping Christians force-marching you to church, not that you ever did.

    Also, what does holding a private bible study open to those who want to be there have to do with separation of church and state? And if people can’t gather in their homes to worship without intervention by the State, it’s the State breaching the separation, not the people who choose to have a private gathering. You have a bizarre conception of who is violating what.

    I admit I don’t remember ever reading about an atheist blowing up an abortion clinic, but if one did, the mainstream media would be careful not to mention it. Moreover, anyone who blows up buildings and kills people are criminals that belong in jail, irregardless of their religious leanings.

  • Karolyn

    Here’s another news piece on it. Apparently, they will pursue it in court, as they should. Of course, if they had hundreds of people coming to their house and it disrupted traffic, it would be another story. They did say they have had up to 15 people, so maybe a neighbor was not happy with parking? It is ridiculous!

    • TML

      I didn’t think of the parking thing… that could be what sparked this if they have 15 cars piled up on a residential street.
      Still, that is easily remedied by car pools and the like. But that’s not what they were being fined for, since, according to the article, there was a specific dialog of religous nature. i.e. “Do you pray?” etc… as opposed to, say, “stop blocking the roads with your cars or you will be fined”

  • Karolyn
  • larry

    Yeah, yeah yeah … only when it benefits bigots does the Constitution mean anything. It’s also “separation of Church and State” but THAT only applies to certain groups! Go sit on your bibles.

    • Angel Wannabe

      larry, Do You Hear Laughter Pharoah?___Get Lost!

    • John Wilch (‘Nam Vet – ’68-69)

      Larry, Larry: if you are going to quote the Constitution get your Bloody facts straight.

      Below you’ll find the proper saying (now if you can only comprehend what it says):


      As you can see it does not say anything about the subject of separating the Church from the State it only say that the CONGRESS (State) can not establish a religion or prohibit (that means tell you what religion to practice). So, Larry, as I said before do your homework before you open your mouth and stick your foot in.

      I swore in ’63 when I enlisted to Defend the Constitution against all enemies FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC and I will until the day I die.

      Oh, I retired from the Military in ’92.

    • Dan az

      could you explain to me what “separation of Church and State” means?Not to you because thats obvious I mean the facts!!!

  • Song

    I don’t know that Christianity has as much to do with the reason they were cited rather the fact that they are in violation of city ordinance which does not allow for large gatherings of people at a person’s residence. When I first heard about this story, I like many posters on this board were outraged and incredulous. However, as more facts were revealed it is apparent that the couple are in violation of city code irregardless of their religion. Every week more than 50 people would attend bible study at this couple’s home. It is most likely that one of their neighbors became annoyed and probably complained.

    • Karolyn

      I believe you are right; however, this will be used as a mantra for Christians citing persecution. I think that it would have been the same had it been Muslims or any other religion. The man is a pastor. I wonder if they have an actual church building or are just using their home for their church, which would be in violation of the law. Whether the law is fair or not depends on a lot of other things that have not been included in any of the info I have read.

  • Song

    A San Juan Capistrano family has been fined for holding regular Bible studies in their home in violation of the city’s zoning code.

    A religious legal nonprofit group has taken up the family’s cause, calling it a case of religious freedom.

    The city of San Juan Capistrano has fined Charles and Stephanie Fromm $300 for their regular Bible study groups, according to a statement from the Sacramento-based Pacific Justice Institute.

    The couple appealed the fine and was told subsequent fines would be enhanced if they continued holding the study group without a conditional use permit — a specialized permit allowing the activity under prescribed conditions, according to the statement.

    City spokeswoman Cathy Salcedo declined to be interviewed by The Times. But in a brief email, she was emphatic the city does not prohibit home Bible studies.

    Instead, the Fromms’ case, she wrote, is about when a residential area has been transformed into a place where people regularly assemble.
    “The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 persons, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” she wrote.

    The Fromms could not be reached Wednesday for comment.

    But Brad Dacus, an attorney and PJI president, said the Bible study groups create no parking problems on the Fromms’ semi-rural street, which has properties measuring more than an acre.

    The city “needed some kind of rational basis to justify their rigid intolerance towards this family for having a Bible study in their home,” said Dacus, who added that he is acting as the Fromms’ spokesman.

    Dacus said the city should refund the fine and apologize to the Fromms.

    “This matter could be resolved very easily,” he said.

    Otherwise, he said, PJI is “committed to defending this family’s home Bible study all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, if necessary.”

    Dacus said more than 20 Bible study groups meet in San Juan Capistrano.

    • Gloria

      Sorry. Didnt read all the entries before statring my opinion and feelings Feelings havent changed about Freedon of Religion but we will waite and see about the rest of it, impacting the neighborhood. Did the neighbors complain of too many cars? Loud noises?

  • John Wilch (‘Nam Vet – ’68-69)

    Well, it looks like the Socialist State of California is at it again. I wonder if they would have fined them if they had been studying the Koran. It seems to me that the libs just don’t want to practice TOLERANCE when it comes to Christianity.

    The Libs say that we must separate Church and State as stated in the Constitution. Well, folks, I have a copy of it on my desk and read it all the time and I have NEVER, AND I MEAN NEVER run across the passage where it so states.

    I well now quote the Constitution (for those that can read and comprehend) on the relevant passage pertaining to the so-called separation of church and state:


    As you can see there is no clause about the separation of both it just says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.


    • Karolyn

      I would venture to guess that it’s not just Christianity. It would be anyone holding any kind of service in their home, whether it was Christian, Buddhist, Native-American, Shinto, etc. etc. It’s just the beauracracy at work. Squeeze as much money as you can, wherever you can.

  • chuckb

    knowing california, i’m sure the city is looking for money in the way of a use permit and not concerned for the reason, of course along with getting the use permit they will no doubt be subjected to an environmental impact report and probably twenty or thirty thousand dollars later they will find a species of cockroach that may be impacted by people meeting in this home. use permit denied, however, we will expect your check for the impact study within ten days.

    • Daniel C.

      You got it Chuckb……but I think the city is missing the big one…. the city needs to hire a lot more people to issue these tickets. Post them around the city between 5pm and 9pm and have them looking in the windows of these homes, and have their pens at the ready…… when they see the family hold hands and say a prayer before their meal, they can promptly break down the door and issue that ticket…Yap…. that would be a money-maker for the city….

  • Oakley Mann

    By some responses it is apparent that many people are not from around here. When someone believes they need the govt to say how many people can come to your home and that you can’t talk about God and Christianity, which our Country was founded upon, it is not only athiests, it is people on govt welfare who do not know how to care or think for themselves. All these folks know is Govt is paying and supporting me so, duh, Govt must be right. Yes Alice, we have many dimwits among us. The whole concept of Govt intervention in this matter is ridiculous, and dangerous for all existing freedoms we now enjoy if allowed to stand on any merit. Oakley Mann

    • TML

      “Christianity, which our Country was founded upon,”

      FYI… this country was not founded upon Christianity. Consequently, it was founded on religious freedom.

      • Oakley Mann

        Thank you. I will be more precise in the future. Regards, Oakley Mann

      • Angel Wannabe

        TmL, Sorry, but its written in The Declaration of Independence clearly, with Reference to “Natures God” and our “Creator”. (Near the top of the document) Now, I would suppose you can change the meaning to whatever makes you comfotable, but it won’t mean your interpetation is correct!

        • Karolyn

          Angel – “Creator” means different things to different people.

          • Angel Wannabe

            karolyn__Right karolyn Right(tongue in cheek)__ it only means something different, to those who want to destroy it!__MAN YOU NEED TO WAKE UP!___It’s funny how a lot of THE REST OF US, KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THOSE TERMS MEAN!

          • Jana

            Thank you for some common sense.

  • Laura

    CA. and NY. is doing all this freaky bs so why can’t the rest of the Country do the same and drop them from the Country and let them join the middle east ? Well what do ya say ? yea or nay ?

  • Laura

    Oh i had forgot for those who choose to leave those states before we drop them we will welcome with open arms.

  • Forrest Gump

    I think what they need to do is make sure that between them they raise the money for the fees each time they meet. That way, if the city comes against them they can simply pay the fee and have the opportunity to speak their mind to the authorities in the mean time. Their attitude needs to be the same as that of Peter and John in Acts chapter 5. I know a lot of what we as human beings and as Americans concentrate on is our money, but money is no obstacle for our Father. If He so chooses to He can single-handedly through this small cell-group of believers rendering unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, balance the budget of the city in question. We shouldn’t get all caught up in trying to fight against ungodly men and women. We should focus on God and worship Him. He has ways that are so far above ours that it’s not even comprehensible what He can do when people simply trust him fully and walk in His ways.

    • Oakley Mann

      I agree with most of what you state, but I cannot agree with making any compromises on these folks rights and personal liberties. They should not have to collect money to pay fines for their birth and American given rights. And you may want to remember, God made the hawk as well as the dove. There are times and outrages when our same God does expect and require the hawks to go forth in His Name. Oakley Mann

    • Laura

      The point is, none of this should even be taken place along with all the other freaky bs that takes place in the US and we need a president that will make clear IF YOU ARE NOT FOR AMERICA THEN PLEASE LEAVE.

  • Forrest Gump

    Another thing they could do is to simply stagger the meetings so that this week it’s on Monday, next week it’s on Tuesday, etc… Then it’s no longer regular. Also, they could just not schedule anything, but instead they can all drop in whenever, just for a visit. God has a lot of ways to show Himself faithful. Be as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves.

  • JJM

    So do I need to stop prayer with my family. No meal blessing at daily meals, Thanksgiving, Christmas? Stop explaining my understanding and discussion of the Bible with my family????
    If it directly harms someone else then OK – otherwise Stay Out Of My Home!!!!!!!!
    This is not FREEDOM…………

  • msgmendoza

    I am not religious but I believe in the principles this country was founded on, we must beat back the COMMUNIST hords that make laws against what this country stood for and I say stood for because the more I see these attrocities against the Constitution, the closer we get to their goal.

    “Those who are unaware they are walking in darkness will never seek the light” Bruce Lee

  • Kim Bruce

    “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” [Matt 18:20]
    Now it’s a crime?

  • Morning Star

    I agree with Alexis as posted on 9-23-11 100% but add that the slippery slope toward Soviet and Nazi style goverment must be stopped now. The best way is to exercise your right of assembly and speach and to vote the pepetrators that infringe on our liberties out and elect those that demonstrate support, not just claim support, of our constitution and bill or rights starting en every town, county and state as well as the Federal Government.

  • Ray from Missouri

    There is no doubt this is an unconstitutional law in violation of the first amendment of our Great Constitution. I spent almost 30 years in law enforcement and studied constitutional law as well as memorizing several hundred case laws and I taught for many years as well. I’m no lawyer but it doesn’t take a mental giant to see this is a violation of our first amendment. I am very interested/anxous in seeing this law to be challenged in a court of law and a grand lawsuit against this city and it’s administrators.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Perhaps you, as a law enforcement officer, can help me. I seem to remember a case almost exactly like this one in the news about five years or more ago. Don’t remember the outcome of it, you?

  • Carol

    California has become a state filled with illegals who are Catholic. The Catholic priests are against their congregations reading the Bible. They’re afraid they might understand that some of the ideas taught by the Catholic church are against what it actually says in the Bible. I was a member of a Bible quiz team, and brought a friend of mine in. She was Catholic, and the priest told her that if she didn’t quit the quiz team, she and her family would be ex-communicated.

    • Karolyn

      I was raised Catholic, and we had (I still have it.)a huge beautiful Catholic Bible, but we never read it; and I never was taught the Bible in catechism. However, I don’t think Catholocism has anything to do with this. It’s beauracracy and money, plain and simple.

      • Antonio

        Yes, i was raised a catholic myself, but i finally made it out of that satanic ridden church. good luck to you.

        • Karolyn

          Antonio – Despite not being a Catholic anymore, it does hold a place in my heart. With my memories of the religion are memories of family, cohesiveness and love. I have no animosity toward any church even though I am no longer a Christian. A church is more the people it is compsed of, not the hierarchy.

          • Jana

            A Christian Church is supposed to be a place that teaches the Bible, and where the One True God is worshipped.

      • coal miner


  • cowgirl505

    This very clearly points to the end times. It’s just another sign that the end is near.

  • Joanne

    Me thinks that this coule will soon own Capistrano ..With GOD on their side ..who could stand against them .. We all should be “praying without ceasing on this one folks ..The people of Capistrano should come down hard on this unconstitutional law these idiot politicians are trying to perpetrate on these GOD fearing Christians
    GOD Bless America Let Freedom Ring

  • FreedomFighter

    Its a sign of the times we live in.

    Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
    Revelation 2:9-11 (in Context) Revelation 2

    We are the resistance, we will be persecuted for our faith.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

  • Joanne

    Sorry about the misspelling “COUPLE”

  • Gloria

    Isnt there a guarantee of right to peaceful assembly? How many parties with people getting drunk and load which are attended by alot more than 3 people require a complaint? I am not a Christian. I am sorry for the persecution of American Idian religion, but I refuse to be blamed for it and it does not mean that Christians or any other religiion should be persecuted. I am “white”, also part Indian not enough to claim tribal rights, but born shamanistic. And yes, my people, the shamans from Europe , were very very persecuted in Europe. But the present day Europeans I do not hold accountable for it. However I hate that California, my place of birth, granted relion status to satanism. Yes the Christians have been obnoxious and nasty in the past but they do try to follow a path of morality and the satanists do not.I am very very much for FREEDOM OF RELIGION but satanism is not a religion. It is just a gripe of mine. Kind of off tiopic. Some on e has to challenge that stupid ordinance and/or the actions of the police against those bible studies in private homes. That makes me angry. ACLU or any attorney who cares please help.

  • baldmurph

    Did I miss the part where the ACLU has filed against the city for this? And, as an afterthought, is a family prayer of thanksgiving before the meal now a crime? Or only if you have guests?

  • SammiD

    Write to the City Manager (Catherine Salcedo let that city’s government know your stand on this issue. Your silence will allow this censorship to continue, right to your own doorstep. If they can do it there, they can do it anywhere.

    My letter to the City Manager of San Juan Capistrano, California:

    I respectfully submit that your beautiful city has made a terrible, unconstutional mistake. I am amazed and appalled that your city government would restrict their own citizens from gathering together in their own home to study the bible!
    What’s next? Poker games? Birthday parties? Cook-outs?
    How can you seriously restrict a citizen from using their own home as they choose when the gathering is not a danger or nuisance to anyone, anywhere?

    I would suggest that you read the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution which states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    An informal gathering in a private home cannot be treated with suspicion by the government, as worse than any other gathering of friends, just because it is religious in nature.
    Unless and until you require a permit for the gathering of people in their own home to celebrate birthdays, barbeques and graduations, you are clearly singling out those citizens who choose to exercise their freedom of assembly to study their religion.

    Please reconsider your stand on this issue.

    • R Brown

      SammiD … I followed your link and sent an email to the City Manager of San Juan Capistrano. I wasn’t however capable of the finesse that you employed in your plea. I was basic, not profane, but direct and to the point. My key point being that I was astonished that the good citizens could elect such a heavy-handed city government. You made a plea for freedom and justice. I made a statement for America.
      Anyway I fully appreciate your taking the action you took and for prompting me to take likewise action. As Americans we ALL should show our rage. Catherine Salcedo should receive a 100,000 protesting email.

  • Dee

    This is just awful. I don’t know what is wrong with those people in California. Everyone is trying to take God out of everything and one day they will be very sorry.

  • DaveH

    The problem is that Christianity competes with the religion of Progressivism. To effectively help themselves to other peoples’ money, the Progressives must first silence those who preach that “Thou shalt not Steal”.

    • Angel Wannabe

      DaveH, Hear Hear!

  • Jay

    10 Planks of Communism

    Karl Marx describes in his Communist Manifesto, the ten steps necessary to destroy a free enterprise system and replace it with a system of omnipotent government power, so as to effect a communist socialist state.

    America has been increasingly adopting more of Marx’s ideals, sometimes more subtle than othertimes, yet sometimes rather openly. President Obama has openly suggested Marxist ideologies and has surrounded himself with numerous outspoken Marxists.

    Obama’s socialist backing goes back at least to 1996, when he received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for an Illinois state senate seat. [Cliff Kincaid, Accuracy in the Media] Obama endorsed openly Socialist Senator Bernie Sanders in 2006. Obama was later endorsed by the Communist Party USA in his run for President of the United States.

    Following are the original ten planks within the Communist Manifesto written by Karl Marx in 1848, followed by a discussion of how America has adopted each of the planks.

    1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.

    The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more “eminent domain” power than was originally intended. Under the rubric of “eminent domain” and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Management property taxes, and “environmental” excuses, private property rights have become very diluted. As a result, private property in lands, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the “forfeiture” provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs. Private owners of property are required to get permission from government relative to the use of their property.

    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

    The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), the Social Security Act of 1936, Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933, and various State income taxes established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.

    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

    Another Marxist attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death.

    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

    We call it government seizures, tax liens, “forfeiture” Public “law” 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; and the IRS confiscation of property without due process. The U.S. government is preparing now for a massive confiscation of property of patriots who speak out or write against the “government” (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill).

    5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

    The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a “national bank” and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank.

    6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the State.

    In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 — not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations including State mandated driver’s licenses. Federal Highway Act of 1916 made federal funds available to States for highway construction), the Interstate Highway System, 1944 (funding began 1956); Interstate Commerce Commission given authority by Congress to regulate trucking and carriers on inland waterways, 1935-40. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL — outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enterprise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartels through the governments regulatory-industrial complex.

    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

    We call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations. The Agriculture Adjustment Act of 1933 provided that farmers will receive government aid if and only if they relinquish control of farming activities.

    8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

    We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor and it’s seen in Minimum Wage and slave labor like dealing with our Most Favored Nation trade partner; i.e. Communist China. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two “income” family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920′s, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot…The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.

    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

    We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public “law” 89-136. Food processing companies, with the co-operation of the Farmers Home Administration foreclosures, are buying up farms and creating “conglomerates.”

    10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children’s factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

    Americans are being taxed to support what we call ‘public’ schools, but are actually “government force-tax-funded schools ” Even private schools are government regulated. The purpose is to train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based “Education”. The federal influence of education is evident in “head-start” programs, school lunch programs, textbooks, and library books. Our children are being indoctrinated and inculcated with the government propaganda, like “majority rules”, and “pay your fair share”. WHERE are the words “fair share” in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Internal Revenue Code (Title 26)?? NO WHERE is “fair share” even suggested !! The philosophical concept of “fair share” comes from the Communist maxim, “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need! This concept is pure socialism.

    • coal miner

      Jay and Bob livingston

      Marx did’t write The Communist Manifesto,Engels did.I think you and all above will find this intersting.What do you think?

      Karl Marx and Frederick Engels. Manifesto of the Communist Party 1848

  • Jay

    The Separation of Church and State

    There is an assault going on — and the liberal social engineers have declared that Christians are the enemy. Amidst their cries of “diversity” and “tolerance” it has become fashionable to bash Christians, discriminate against them, and to deny the Christian roots of American democracy.

    They resent how Christians pose constant reminders to them — and to an American society that is unsure about following them — that God has absolute standards of right and wrong.

    This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. [John 3:19-20]

    These anti-Christian Socialist liberals want to achieve a new, Godless America where our children will be protected from outmoded Christian ideas and will enjoy freedom “from” religion – not freedom “of” religion.

    Socialists throughout our government have made it clear that the foundations, the roots that have undergirded this nation are no longer considered valid.

    “We are redefining in practical terms the immutable ideals that have guided us from the beginning.” – President Bill Clinton, Nov. 8, 1997

    “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” (1 Peter 5:8)

    Make no mistake about it… these hate filled anti-American enemies of your family will not give up their evil schemes until your children are destroyed. They do not respect God’s definition of the family and are intent on discrediting His wisdom in raising children as they attempt to rewrite His guidelines for morality.

    As the balance of power continues to swing towards a Godless agenda, Americans will be increasingly forced to adopt a new perspective of who we are: one based not on immutable ideals and values, truth, justice, personal freedom and the Constitution of the United States, rather one based on relative values, deceit, unequal justice, Marxism and a redefined globalist Constitution.

    • Truthseeker

      Jay, I applaud you! Very, very well put! G-d Bless you!

    • Dan az

      Well done!I think instead of assisting in your class you should be running it instead.Excellent work.

  • Lynette

    I just loved Christin’s comments. All the sins of the past are still with us today, if not worse. Raping of babies – how much worse can it get? Millions of children killed by their own mothers in the womb – ugh! There is nothing new under the sun and the world is going to get much words, I promise you.

    • Christin

      Lynette… :)

      Yes, I forgot to list ‘abortion’ under ‘bloody an killings’ of man, though I did list murder.

  • http://Yahoo webcleaner

    Oligarchy is now running many local, State, and Federal jurisdictions.
    They enforce Rules that are not in compliance with the Constitution of the United States Constitution and not even the State Constitutions.
    Christianity will be persecuted more and more until the Majority of American Citizens take action. Any and all actions to end the persecution of Christians is now valid. The USA was founded on the right to worship as Christians. Attacks on Christians is an Attack on the USA Constitution. Which is Treason. Treason is usually and historically punished by “DEATH”. It shouldn’t have to come to that.

  • superdave008

    This is tooooooo! Easy …

    The city is unabel to inforce there decision in a court of law …

    in court they would be forced to stop and decist .

    When dealing with an out of control Govt. we need to be bold and subleminol.

    We are having a birthday party at my house everyone bring a gift bag to the party with your bible in it , and a large purse . (ladies bring purse.

    We will sing happy birthday to Jesus and wow isn’t this fun. we will pray and read about the guest of honor.

    After the party is over (ballons tied to porch post.) fold up your gift bag , save it for the next party and leave with it in your purse.

    If trouble continues you have a leak in your membership.

    To confuse and destroy the opposition simply hold meetings on weekends at a different house each week. all birthday celebrations to be announced 1 hour before the meeting by telephone chain.

    In the mean time contact the A.C.L.J. and have them file a restraining order against the city. take it to trial !

    It is a violation of your constitutional rights . they could be charged with hate speech and the city would lose in a federal court.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      sorry to disagree, but when have you ever heard of the American Criminal Liberties Unit standing up for ANY Christian group???

  • Jay

    For anyone seeking the truth as to who is controlling America. It certainly isn’t the government. The government are the employees, and puppets of this power!

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    Is there any doubt that Satan lives and his nest is in Calif. ?

    • Jay

      California will soon get a wake-up call, and it’s not gonna be pretty!

  • Jay

    “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.” —Thomas Jefferson

    In November 1949, Eustace Mullins, 25, was a researcher in Washington DC when friends invited him to visit the famous American poet Ezra Pound, who was confined at St. Elizabeth’s Mental Hospital and listed as a “political prisoner.”

    A leading figure in Modern English literature, Pound was the editor and critic who introduced the world to James Joyce, W.B. Yeats and T.S. Eliot. During the Second World War, he was charged with treason for broadcasts on Rome Radio that questioned the motives behind America’s involvement.

    Pound commissioned Mullins to examine the influence of the banking establishment on U.S. policy. Mullins spent every morning for two years in the Library of Congress and met with Pound every afternoon. The resulting manuscript, “The Secrets of the Federal Reserve” proved too hot for any American publisher to handle. Nineteen rejected it. One said, “you’ll never get this published in New York.” When it finally appeared in Germany in 1955, the U.S. Military Government confiscated all 10,000 copies and burned them.

    Thanks to the American Patriot Friends Network, this book is freely available on line. (I recommend you save it on your desktop, as I did.) Why is it so (excuse the pun) inflammatory?

    Essentially it paints a picture of the world, and the role of the United States, which is radically different from the one we are given in school or in the media.

    “Notwithstanding the war of independence against England,” writes Mullins, “we remained an economic and financial colony of Great Britain.” Between 1865 and 1913, he says London bankers led by the Rothschilds used agents such as J.P. Morgan and J.D. Rockefeller to gain control of American industry and organize it into cartels.

    Where did these bankers get the money? For over 200 years, European bankers have been able to draw on the credit of their host countries to print it!

    In the Seventeenth Century, the moneylenders and the aristocracy made a pact. If the king would make paper currency a liability of the state, the moneylenders would print as much as he liked! Thus the Banks of England, France and the Reichsbank came into being but they were all private corporations and remain so today.

    According to this nefarious pact, the moneylenders got to charge interest on assets they created out of thin air. The aristocracy all took shares in the central banks plus they got to finance a burgeoning government and to wage costly wars.

    This piece of chicanery is at the heart what plagues humanity.

    The bankers have a vested interest in the state (i.e. the people) incurring as much debt as possible. They are behind the Marxist, socialist and liberal movements which call for big government and social spending. They are behind the catastrophic wars of the last century. The Warburgs financed the Bolshevik Revolution. The Bank of England financed the rise of Hitler. Prescott Bush (W’s grandfather) was head of Brown Brothers Harriman, which financed the construction of the Nazi war machine.

    Naturally if you can create money out of thin air, your first instinct is to buy tangible assets with it. There is a powerful impulse to use debt to control nations and take over their real assets. This is the essence of the so-called Third World Debt crisis. Dedicated to owning all wealth and enslaving humanity, an irresistible vampire has been unleashed uponthe world

    Much of Mullins book is devoted to the subterfuge by which the United States was drawn into its lethal embrace. In 1913, the Owen-Glass Bill gave mostly foreign-controlled banks (posing as “the Federal Reserve”) the right to create currency based on the credit of the United States government and to charge it interest for doing it!

    To accomplish this, the bankers had to rig the election of 1913 in order to get Woodrow Wilson elected. Then their stooges in Congress passed the legislation on December 22 after their opponents had gone home for Christmas.

    “This act establishes the most gigantic trust [cartel] on earth,” Congressman Charles Lindbergh said at the time. “When the President signs this bill; the invisible government by the Monetary Power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed.”

    Mullins explains that the legislation passed just in time for the American people to finance World War One. After maintaining standing armies for 50 years, European powers no longer could afford the luxury of another war. But the U.S. was relatively debt free and made the whole thing possible.

    What would WWI have been without Germany? Apparently Germany was not self-sufficient in food and would have had to sit out this war. In the nick of time, the bankers organized something called “The Belgium Relief Committee” which channeled billions of dollars worth of U.S. meat and potatoes not to Belgium but to Germany. When Edith Cavell, an American working in a Belgium hospital pointed this out, British intelligence had the Germans arrest and execute her.

    Mullins makes a convincing case that every U.S. President since Wilson has been a lackey of the bankers. J.F. Kennedy was assassinated because he started to print his own U.S. government-backed currency. This is also the transgression that led to the murders of Presidents Abraham Lincoln and James Garfield.

    Last year alone, the American people paid $360 billion in interest to the bankers. To maintain this massive fraud, the bankers enforce an iron grip on the political and cultural organs of the nation. According to Mullins, “The New York Times” is owned by the Kuhn Loeb while “The Washington Post” is owned by Lazard Freres. In Europe the Rothschilds own Reuters as well as the French and German news services.

    I presume US publishers, TV networks and movie producers are similarly beholden. Rockefellers, Carnegies and the Fords endow the nations’ libraries and universities. Journalists and professors dutifully parrot fantasies about democracy and freedom. Mind control laboratories run by the CIA and the British army (TheTavistock Institute) dream up ways to manipulate and undermine the population. The psychological sterilization of the human female (“feminism”) is an example.

    The “War on Terror” is part of the banking cabal’s plan to consolidate its grip on humanity in a friendly (or not so friendly) fascist “New World Order.” They want to secure their political, economic and social grip on the obstreperous Muslim world, as well as build up a security apparatus in case the docile populations of the West become restive.

    Well, at least the cosmic battle between Good and Evil is out in the open at last!

  • Northlander

    I will pray for the pitiful God-haters. Jesus died to save us from our sins. He stands at the door and knocks. Christianity is a religion of freedom. Open the door to Jesus or reject Him. It is your choice. What’s not to love?

    California law is not Constitutional. I can’t wait for this case to get to the Supreme Court.

    • Karolyn

      One does not have to be a Christian to love Jesus.

      • Jana

        You stated that you don’t have to be a Christian to love Jesus.
        Christian means being Christ like.

        Jesus said:
        John 14:15-17
        If you love me, keep my commandments.
        16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you forever,—
        17 Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive; because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him. You know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

        • Karolyn

          Jana – In my understanding, especially referencing many Christian posters here, to be a Christian you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, which I don’t. I certainly try to live my life in a Christ-like manner. I believe Jesus was A son of God, not THE son of God, and that he was the most enlightened man who ever lived, the most perfect human being, if you will.

          • Jana

            You are the one who said:” You don’t have to be a Christina to love Jesus.” I was just telling you what Jesus Himself said about loving Him.
            Its funny how you have different answers for the same subject. you sound a little confused.

          • Jana

            Sorry its getting late. i meant Christian.

  • http://None Civil War Buff

    I would just like to point out what I see as a terrible misuse of actions against Christians and Jews. Many mentioned Muslims above. However, no one has told about the workout gym where Muslim women insisted they remove all windows so that no one could seem them in work out clothes.

    There have been a number of schools where Bible clubs run after school either were not allowed or had to really fight to do so, but there is a room set aside in the school so that Muslim children may go to pray 5 times a day facing Mecca.

    Christians have never asserted their religion in that fashion.

    I believe it is the height of arrogance that a Muslim Mosque is or was going to be built very close to the World Trade Centers that they destroyed. That is a move that is strictly an “In your face, Infidel. We will show you that we control a large portion of your country.”

    I am also getting tired of all the Catholic bashing. I am a protestant and have been all my life. But I have an aunt who was a strong Catholic. She did read her Bible and she wrote some very excellent poems and one-page stories that came out of her reading.

    Yes, there are some in every religious group in the world who will pervert the true meaning of their religion. The Crusades and other religious wars were more wrong than right. However, I do not see that type of thing being done all over the world today.

    I have enjoyed reading all these emails added although it took me about 2 hours to do so and I never should have wasted my time like that. I will say one thing about stuff that gets posted on the Internet. It absolutely kills me to see such bad misspellings. I do understand that people’s fingers may not keep up with their thoughts, but I always try to be sure my emails are in proper English as well as correct spelling and punctuation and paragraphing. It makes a message easier to read.

  • The Truthier Truth

    You are all invited to my house to study Boto, the Pink Dolphin of the Upper Peruvian Amazon and his dietary practices. This is my religion. If you misbehave, Boto shall change into a man at night when the moon is not full and take your children into the River never to be seen again by their families.

    Boto Akbar!!

  • Thomas Conner

    Dear Mayor Sallevato,

    In America, such “persecution” as this presumably happening in San Juan Capistrano may be a rarity, but shouldn’t be happening at any rate.
    We pray the ordinance will be overturned.

    Thomas & Becky Conner

  • Earl, QUEENS, NY

    What has happened to our 1st Amendment?? Sadly it seems to be going the way of our 2nd Amendment, in that the leftwing Democraps will thumb their noses at it. Forget about Tupperware or NFL parties, and imagine if these were LGBT rights activists inviting kids into their home. Assuming no pedophile acts were committed, I guess these despot city officials would deem it perfectly acceptable to read a book such as “Heather has Two Mommies” to the kids. But if Christians/Jews so much as protested or spoke out against this kind of immorality, surely they’d be persecuted or harassed by the city officials!! It’s sad to see America sinking into such a pit, and we really need to rise up and fight back against these politically correct morally bankrupt leftists!!

    • Karolyn

      I think it’s about zoning, not Bible Study. I’m sure if you checked the religion of the people on the city council and the officers who write the summonses, you would find that at least the majority of them would be Christians.

  • Ivan W. Kasiurak

    I Live in a great city in Canada called London Ontario, and when a good friend sent me the article Busted for being a Christian, and If I had not read it I would not have believed it.
    In ww11 men and women in both our countries died to protect our freedom of speech, and it looks like in parts of your country they died in vain.
    We in Canada are also losing our freedom of speech we has an organization in Canada called the Canadian Human Rights, and if someone does not like what you say will take you in front of them, the Human Rights will pay for your council, and you pay for your own.
    I am not a believer in the Bible, there is no proof that Christ ever existed, everything he was suppose to have said was written by his Disciples, and that is hearsay evidence.
    The Bible is full of contradictions, and listed below are a few.
    “Honor thy father and thy mother…”– Exodus 20:12
    “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ”– Luke 14:26
    ON SEEING GOD”… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30
    “No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18
    “… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26
    “…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19.
    The city that find the couple $300.00 for having people over to study the Bible should hang their head in shame.
    Ivan W. Kasiurak

  • robert shrugged

    thats what you get when you vote for liberals, socialists, homosexuals, muslims, communists, and facists. when people have freedom someone wants to take it away because they do not like to see people make sane decisions for themselves or a group who is of like mind. when people have a common bond such as christians someone wants to stop them because they might judge them for what they are. when you silence the mind and the mouth you have made slaves. that is what the liberals and the non God fearing people have in common. and governments do not like free thinking people because then they can not dictate as to everyone and make everyone exactly alike. the beauty of freedom is that everyone can be themselves. if you do not like someone or something you do not have to associate with them. but governments and socialists, liberals, and such do not like that or freedom of thought. they have to keep everyone under foot. that why we have a constitution that is under constant attack because liberals and others hate us for being free and having rights.

  • tracy

    I am a Democrat. And I FIRMLY believe in religious freedom and all freedoms for all Americans. Since when is it a crime to do anything in the privacy of your own home that does not involve illegal drugs or arms or sex with minors? Those are CRIMES! This is beyond comprehension that these people can’t pray with friends and discuss the Bible (or ANY other book) in the privacy of their own home? Who complained about this? Why would this bother anyone in the community? I am sure this gathering was QUIET for Gods sake! How does this disturb or infringe on ANYONE ELSE’S RIGHTS AS A TAXPAYING CITIZEN???? How any of my neighbors pray or talk in their own homes is not an infringement on any of my rights – from Muslims to Jews to Catholics to Protestants – THIS IS THEIR RIGHT AS AMERICANS!

    • Antonio

      where do you get arms is a crime? have you ever heard of the second amendment? By the way, illegal drugs is a term created by government to make yet another law violating your rights. According to the constitution you have the right to do what you want to do to your own being(body). If you want to do drugs in your own home that is your business not governments business. It is only illegal to force something on to another being causing harm, such as obamacare.Sex with minors? The body is fully capable at the age of puberty and in the old days it was perfectly ok. In case you don’t know there are 13, 14 and 15 year olds popping out babies on a daily basis and that proves that their bodies are fully capable but government just had to create yet another law telling you what you can and cannot do.

    • coal miner

      I agree with you and Jana.Even though I don’t believe in any kind of religion,I do believe you should have a right to prayers meetings or Bible study in your own home.Who elects these clowns?That is a person’s right.Everybody, hang in there.That law is silly.

  • Song

    After sitting on planning & zoning in my community for over 3 years, I am going to state again that this is not about Christianity. This is about city ordinances. One being, I am sure, that to obstruct public access, ie. parking on residential roads, is considered a threat to public safety, because if there were reason for medical or fire vehicles to gain access and it was being obstructed by parked vehicles on the road the result could be very costly to whomever needed access to those services. This isn’t some GRAND conspiracy. Honestly people. It is no different than if this couple was conducting a business out of their home. The concerns would be the same.

    • Antonio

      Are you trying to say that by them having bible study in their home is obstructing public access??

      • Song

        Yes, Antonio, for the reasons I have already mentioned which you just ignored. 50 people each week is a considerable number of people and if even just half of them are driving to this couple’s home each week, where are they parking? Most likely, on the street. This would restrict public access if a large emergency vehicle (like a fire truck) needed to get down the street and would be a concern. That is why there are ordinances in place to restrict business/commercial activity in residential neighborhoods. The “why” that brings people to this couple’s home in large groups on a weekly basis is a moot point. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. This couple could just as well be selling tupperware or have a retail outlet in their basement. If it is attracting 50 people each week at one time, it is going to be in violation of city code for the reasons I have already mentioned.

        • Jana

          They live in a semi rural setting and have a little over an acre of land, so they are parking on private property.

          • Karolyn

            Jana – Let’s face it; we don’t know the lay of the land; and actually, a little over an acre is not that much. Then you consider how much of that is taken up by their house; how much is yard; how much is driveway, etc. We really don’t know enough to even be discussing this issue the way we have been and getting peoples’ ire up.

          • Song

            What is obvious Antonio and Jana is that most of you are conspiracy theorists, over-reactionary’s that don’t want to examine the facts and are all to eager to jump on the bandwagon of “persecution” or whatever your thinking is; maybe you are eager for “the rapture” or whatever you want to believe, but the facts are that they were in violation of city code. It does not matter if they live on a “little over an acre” or not and Antonio, if you want to stoop to personal attacks, go ahead. What is obvious is that you have never been on a city’s planning & zoning committee. LOL. BTW (if they do live in a “semi-rural” area then chances are there aren’t any sidewalks, or curbs and gutters which makes parking on the street even more of a public safety hazard! And to answer Antonio, the difference between WEEKLY bible study and a funeral, super bowl party or any other gathering is just that, the bible study group gathers WEEKLY! Karolyn, I agree with you and kudos to you for putting up with this over-reactionary, zealot lot!

        • Antonio

          Well, after sitting on the planning & zoning on your community you haven’t learned much, that’s what happens when you just “sit around” lol. City ordinances only require that vehicles do not block fire-hydrants and drive ways and so far from the corner. In case you do not know, I will tell that streets are big enough so that two(2) vehicles can be parked on either side of the street and a big bad fire truck can still zoom on down the street. Another thing you may not be aware of is that you can park your car ANYWHERE as long as there is not a red line there for emergency use. Are you learning anything yet? If they are breaking some stupid law “block public access” then why are they not giving everybody 300 dollar tickets for having a Christmas party, thanksgiving party, BBQ party, pool party, death gathering, birth gathering, labor day party, family reunion party, and other crap i cannot think of right now?? You need to start waking up man and quit making excuses to support the people who taking away your rights on a daily basis. good luck

        • Karolyn

          Song – That’s what I’ve been trying to say during this whole discussion, but everyone wants to make it about the persecution of Christians.

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          If they ran a shuttle bus these power freaks would still have the same policy. Ignore their un Constitutional ordinance and sue them if they try to inforce it. Where’s the damn ACLU on this one ?

          • Song

            What are you talking about gunner689? Every town, city and county has ordinances. This couple was violating city ordinance. Don’t like it, then work to change it, but don’t make this into something it isn’t.

  • Mike

    There is NOTHING original in the bible. It is a superstition that has held us in its grip (under threat of death for most of that time), for over 2000 years now. The bible is just a book, and not a very good one at that. The vast majority of so-called christians don’t even know the history of the book they claim to love so much. Believing that some guy that was killed over 2000 years ago is going to come back from the dead and save us is just ridiculous. Every time you hear someone say “god”, insert Zeus or Ra, and it makes just as much sense. Organised religion is a joke, and has no place in politics whatsoever. Most people who claim to hear voices talking to them are heavily medicated, unless they say that “God” is talking to them. Religion is a scam, pure and simple. If it wasn’t for religion, we could have heaven on earth.

    • coal miner


      Right on.We are fifteen hundred years behind times.We could have all the diseases cured and could be on the other side of the Milky way,if it weren’t for organized religions.They are the root cause of wars and genocide.Ask the Indians.

      • Kate8

        coal – It’s not religions that have kept us behind the times. In fact, we AREN’T behind the times. Advancements are just kept from the masses until they’ve been around long enough for the PTB to develop them and put them to their own use.

        The truth is that religions were put in place to keep us enslaved, controlled and ignorant. It’s not that the messages are false. It’ that we haven’t been taught how to decode them.

        The fact that different cultures put a different spin on ancient events doesn’ mean they are invalid. They are just all pointing to the same thing, from their own symbology. You, and most everyone, simply lack the understanding to know what the message is. We aren’t educated to be able to dicipher symbols and metaphor.

        But keep looking. Maybe, if you really look in earnest, you will discover the awesome truth. Maybe.

        Good luck.

  • Karolyn

    Thanks for the link, coal, but (Call me crazy.)I’m a little apprehensive about a website called “the Joy of Satan.” It kinda gives me the creeps, although I’m sure the have some valid facts.

    • coal miner


      The Joy of Satan people as far I know are law biding and probalby older than christianity and Judaism.They do not perform human sacrifice or even animal sacrifices.In their eyes killing any living thing is wrong.They don’t eat meat,they are strictly vegetarians.Oh yeah,I forgot they are also conservative Republicans.REMEMBER IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SATAN WAS THE GOOD GUY,ONLY GOD CAN DO EVIL.HAVE NO FEAR,THEY ARE HARMLESS.
      THANK YOU.

      • Jana

        coal miner,
        You must show us all where in the Old Testament using the King James Bible that it says that Satan was ever the good guy. Of course Satan thinks so, and I am certainly sorry that you think so.

        • Kate8

          coal – I’d like to know, as well, in ANY version.

          I, as Jana, study Scriptures daily, and I’ve never seen that.

          There is a place in the OT that tells us that God created both good AND evil. Well, duh. Polarity and duality are necessary for manifest existence, which satan is part of but God, as Creator, is above, just as satan is bound by time (as he is a creation) but God is not. God created time by setting the cosmos in motion.

          So what you are saying does not make sense. The creation cannot be greater than the Creator. You are believing satan’s lie.

      • coal miner

        I misspell probably

    • Song

      haha. Good one Karolyn. I’m with you on that one as well :D

    • coal miner

      Karolyn,Jana, and Kate8

      I am oppose to all religions,including Joy of Satan.I, like Albert Einstein am Agnostic panthesist and also not an atheist.Karolyn,study this religion,but be careful.You don’t want to get too heavily involved with any cult you are not familiar with.They may be or not be what they say they are.As far I know they are harmless.You can learn alot from them about the orgins of other religions and philosphies.They are are a great source of imformation.

  • Altaica

    Anyone have a link to this city’s ordinance? I would like to read the law myself.

    If this law does violate freedom of religion and the right to peaceful assembly it needs to be torn down as these rights shall not be infringed.

  • coal miner


    Satan points out people’s sin in The Old Testament.God said only he authorize good or evil.Satan,Lucifer,or the Devil are three different beings.The Devil is God’d evil brother.He was god of darkness.Satan was the accuser and cry baby of the old testament and always whining about others sinning.

    • Jana

      coal miner,
      I know you got this fiction out of the gnostics bible, but it is exactly that, fiction.
      If you would study the Bible which is backed up by the original manuscripts you would find out the truth. Satan was an angel and not anyones brother. He is not anyone’s friend either. He has many names. Satan, Lucifer, Sluefoot and Devil are just a few.
      I know that you have been hurt before by the Catholic Church and a priest. I am so sorry that this has happened. You are not a bad person, you had nothing to do with this hurt. Satan knew you were a leader and he wanted to destroy your desire for Truth, and he did. This is not your fault.

      • Kate8

        coal – I’m sorry you were hurt by the Church, too. That is terrible and inexcusable. But remember, the Church is not God. I actually believe that the Church is a creation of satan, and this is coming from another former Catholic.

        I refer you to my above post. God is Creator. He set up the Laws of Creation, and He honors them but is not bound by them.

        Satan is a created being. The created cannot possibly be greater than its Creator.

        • Karolyn

          Kate – I was looking for you. This is OT, but I wanted to know if you are familiar with David Wilcock? Someone just turned me on to his site. This blog is about the bombing of 2 underground NWO bases and the 80 countries turning against those involved in the NWO.

          I believe what they say: “When the student is ready, the teacher appears.” I’m getting hit from several sides now.

          • Kate8

            Karolyn – First of all, good for you! Welcome aboard!

            Secondly, WOW! That is one of the most astonishing audios I’ve heard! If this is true, and I have a feeling it may just be, this is wonderful news!

            The reason I say that is because Jay posted an audio of an interview with another guy who said the same things about the quakes…I just didn’t get that they were underground elite bunkers that were taken out. I only heard that they were nukes which were detonated underground. Holy canole!

            I had no idea that the world had so much organized opposition to the NWO. We get so little real information with our controlled media…and so much pervasive futility is psy-ops…which is why it is so important for Americans to wake up, speak up and stand up.

            Good work, Karolyn. This is a hugely important deal.

            Things are really getting exciting now. It’s a time for real hope!

      • coal miner


        most of what people believe about Satan does not come from the Bible. … and not an evil one! If we look up in a Bible … The Old Testament word Satan …


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