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Bishop Asks Kennedy To Refrain From Taking Communion

December 1, 2009 by  

Bishop asks Kennedy to refrain from taking communionA request by a Roman Catholic bishop that Rep. Patrick Kennedy (D-RI) not take Holy Communion because of his pro-abortion stance has sparked a heated debate about the boundaries between church and state.

Among the critics of the move by Bishop Tobin of Providence, R.I., was Democratic Representative Patrick Murphy, who is also a pro-abortion Catholic and who said that "we don’t legislate at the orders of the Vatican" but based on what is good for the country.

Similarly, the group Catholics for Choice expressed support of the Rhode Island representative, saying "he is one of many Catholic politicians who stand by both the courage of their convictions and their consciences to support women’s reproductive choices."

However, Peter Roff, a senior fellow at the Institute for Liberty, has defended the decision in an opinion piece published on the website of Fox News in which he stated that in the church there is no place for free thinking about doctrinal issues "and not all things are relative or left to the discretion of the believer."

According to RTE News, the conversation took place in 2007, but it came into the spotlight recently as Kennedy criticized the church for threatening to oppose the healthcare reform unless it included tighter restrictions on abortion.
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  • Jean-Luc Dalmasso

    Americans enjoy the constitutional right to choose their religion or to decide not to have any. Patrick Kennedy views himself as a member of the Roman Catholic Church. The reception of communion, as its name indicates, expresses among other things a unity of faith between the communicant and the Church that grants it. It is a matter of fact that Kennedy no longer shares doctrines that are taught by the highest members of the Catholic hierarchy as being parts of the core beliefs of that Church. Of course, he is free to do so, but why doesn’t he have the honnesty to leave that Church and stop presenting himself as a Roman Catholic ? By doing so, he is offending the believes of his former coreligionists ; and by insisting to receive communion he is commiting what the very Church he aknowledges as being his Church considers a sacrilege. What would one think of a Muslim who would stride with his shoes on in a mosque ? Wouldn’t this be rightly considered as a provocation by other Muslims and any person of common sense ?

    • James

      Jean-Luc, I agree, but I took exception to the “constitutional right to choose their religion.” In America rights are inherent and inalienable, they aren’t dependent on documents for their existence. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of.” It’s sole purpose is to prevent the federal government from passing any legislation concerning religion.

      • John Queue

        James, your understanding is a little skewed – but most modern folks are confused. The 1st Amendment says the government shall not establish a religion. At the time, England had created the Church of England, breaking off from the Catholic church who would not endorse many of the monarch’s abuses of power (particularly one king’s divorce). Our Founding Fathers, who were mostly Christians, and founded a nation on Christian faith, believed in freedom and sought to prevent the our government from falling into the same power trap. All the “politically correct” garbage that so many spew these days, clearly demonstrate their lack of knowledge about history and the Constitution; or intentional and nefarious rewriting of that history.

        • James

          John Q, You are twisting the amendment’s words to agree with your belief. “Establishment” is a noun – not a verb – look it up. “An establish of religion” is the object which “Congress shall make no law respecting” [i.e., concerning].
          The purpose for the Bill of Rights was set forth in its Preamble: “THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added.”
          That speaks for itself. And, all of the Founding Fathers were Christian – two were Roman Catholic, and the rest were Protestant.

          • Joe H.

            James,
            And it also says freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion!!!

          • eyeswideopen

            James, you are wrong as is John about our founding fathers. But here is my question. Those Catholics who use any form of birth control, should they also be denied the communion? How about those who vote for capital punishment? The Catholic Church is adamant about those two things, why do you think they don’t prevent the others from receiving communion for violating those rules?

          • libertytrain

            Eyes: Re your question – “But here is my question. Those Catholics who use any form of birth control, should they also be denied the communion? How about those who vote for capital punishment? The Catholic Church is adamant about those two things, why do you think they don’t prevent the others from receiving communion for violating those rules?”
            The Catholic Church would prevent others – the trick is if the Catholic Church does not know that one of their members practices birth control, or believes in the right to abort – how can the Church deny you the Sacraments? Yet, the member him/herself would know the rules and chooses to break them and still take the Sacraments for whatever reason —- Kennedy and other politicians are out there in the public so the Church acts on it’s “rules” – Capital Punishment is an opinion of the Church not a doctrine of belief that is required to be accepted by the members of the Church – unless something has changed recently – and unlike you, I don’t know everything about everything. (I believe the only accepted form of birth control was/is – what was the term? Rhythm?

          • eyeswideopen

            LIBERTYTRAIN, sweetie, here is the Catholic rules and opinions on capital punishment. Article 5 The Fifth Commandment capital punishment# 2267.
            “If instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of the persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, given the means at the States disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definately of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender today–are very rare, if not practically non-existent.” This statement is saying capital punishment should not be used, as the State can confine the person, thus stopping the threat of additional crimes being able to be committed.

          • libertytrain

            eyes: your quote from the Catholic Church was only part of the article – that you took out of context:
            “The Catholic Church does not deny that the death penalty is one of the options reserved for legitimate authority. The Catechism states: “…the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty.”(2266) The Catechism goes on to caution: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.” (2267)”

          • libertytrain

            Eyes, again, it’s not required doctrine by the Catholic Church that Catholics have to adhere to- like the matter of abortion and birth control. So it doesn’t matter what any of us, who may be Catholic, think about the death penalty – we are not required to adhere to this “opinion” of the Church – I haven’t expressed my opinion on the matter of the death penalty – – only that Catholics are free to think as they wish on the matter.

          • Joe H.

            Libertytrain,
            Well said, well said indeed!!! Straight facts NOT taken out of context are always better than a hurried speed read of the facts and then quoted out of context!!!

        • eyeswideopen

          John, you are a little confused. History documents that the majority of the founding fathers were Deists, and not Christians. You need to do a little more research. Here’s a hint, you won’t find under Jesus, or Christ anywhere in our documents. Under God, yes, under Jesus Christ no!!. Chrisitans want to think that we were founded under the Christian religion, however that is not true. Facts are facts, and the majority of our founding fathers were not Christians.

          • Jana

            Eyes,
            History can be rewritten.
            These are from their own words, I have more but this shows they were Christians, believing in Jesus Christ.

            Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence Samuel Adams:
            I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

            John Jay
            First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court
            Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son.

            John Hancock
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I John Hancock, . . . being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27],

            John Dickinson
            Signer of the Constitution
            Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

            William Cushing
            First Associate Justice Appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court
            Sensible of my mortality, but being of sound mind, after recommending my soul to Almighty God through the merits of my Redeemer and my body to the earth . . .

            Will of William Cushing

            Charles Carroll
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.

            From an autographed letter in our possession written by Charles Carroll to Charles W. Wharton, Esq., on September 27, 1825, from Doughoragen, Maryland.

            Robert Treat Paine
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.

            Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.

          • eyeswideopen

            Jana, darling, you don’t know what a Deist is do you? They believe in God, but not the revelation. Look it up and learn. Some were Christians but most were Deists as it was an 18th Century system of natural religion, affirming the existence of God while denying the validity of revelation. The list is so long, I recommend that you just search deists who were founding fathers and you will find many sites that back up what I have told you. If they were all Christians, don’t you think they would have written him into our official documents somehow?

          • Joe H.

            Jana,
            Give it up girl, Eyes is so anti Christian that she will never admit there were Christians among the framers of this Christian country. (Most factually not Muslim!!!Regardless of BO says!!!!)

          • Joe H.

            Eyes AKA dennisobber,
            Nbc took a poll recently on whether to keep the words “in God We Trust” on our currency and the word God in the pledge of Allegiance! here’s the results and BTW the highest number of votes recorded on any poll by them!!! 86% for keeping them and 14% against!!!! Hmmmm seems like more are religious than you think!!!

          • eyeswideopen

            Joe, I am a proud Christian, however, I will not let people make statements about Christians and our founding fathers, or Constitution which are not true. You do know that if you repeat a lie enough, soon you will believe it. I am proud that many of the founding fathers were Christians, but it was not a majority, and this country was not founded under Christ. The truth, is something that you have a hard time with. It is the easiest way to live. The Conservatives have been trying to rewrite history involving the founding fathers since the 80′s and as a true Christian I will not stand by and let the lie be tossed around as though it was a fact.

          • Joe H.

            eyes,
            not trying to rewrite anything at all. Not taking anything out of context either!!!

          • Jana

            This is not for eyes, this is for anyone else who may doubt the truth.

            eyes uses as her sources, things written by our hippie generation professors who has distorted the truth.

            She claims to be a Christian and I will not say she is not, but I will say she is very confused.

            Her condescending attitude with everyone is quite annoying, but that is what we have learned to expect from her.

            The following is more of the signers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. You decide for yourself.

            Deism – Deism has no church and no official organization, hence, it is not considered a religion. It is more a reason-based view of religion in general. Deism is sometimes referred to as a religious philosophy or a religious outlook. In general, Deism did not see Christ as the Son of God, did not believe in the Trinity, had no strong belief in miracles, and had no belief in atonement or resurrection. The Bible was not considered “sacred text” among most Deists, although most Deists were (like Franklin) Christian-friendly.

            Obviously these quotes

            John Dickinson
            Signer of the Constitution
            Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.
            Will of John Dickinson

            Patrick Henry
            Governor of Virginia, Patriot
            This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.
            Will of Patrick Henry

            John Langdon
            Signer of the Constitution
            In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life .

            Robert Treat Paine
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.
            Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.

            Benjamin Rush
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!
            Benjamin Rush, The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, George Corner, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press for the American Philosophical Society, 1948), p. 166, Travels Through Life, An Account of Sundry Incidents & Events in the Life of Benjamin Rush.

            Roger Sherman
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Constitution
            I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer.

            Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A. C. McClurg and Company, 1896), pp. 272-273.
            John Witherspoon
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish.
            John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January

          • Jana

            On the above post I didn’t complete my heading of the Founding Fathers quotes, I meant to say

            Obviously these quotes speak for themselves.

            The sad thing is eyes actually believes the very lies she is spreading against our country. The Liberals are the ones who have been rewriting history through our hippie generation, but actually it started long before the hippies, and she has bought into it and is pushing it. It is this kind of thinking that has taken God out of our schools and have misinterpreted the fact, that we are to have freedom of Religion to make it mean, freedom from Religion.
            Sad, very sad.

          • Joe H.

            Jana
            Indeed they do, indeed they do!!!

          • Rinny52

            Eyes – you are also confused. God and Jesus Christ are one. Have you not heard of the Trinity? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit; something humans in general cannot comprehend, unless you are a Christian.

    • http://www.chandostransport@eastlink.ca Graeme B

      Jean-Luc: What about the priests who perform Mass yet are themselves child abusers and alcoholics. Just read the report that has come out regading the Dublin Diocese regading child abuse, one priest even using his crucifix the penetrate an 11 year old vaginally and anally. Or in Canada where we have a bishop currently on charges of child porn distribution. The thing that has come out with the Irish situation is the term “Mental Reservation” which an archibishop said is permissible for him and the church to use, namely LYING. So for a bishop to say that Kennedy is not worthy to receive communion is completely hypocritical in the extreme.

      • Joe H.

        Graeme B.,
        And what about the ones that didn’t? What about the ones that gave their life in WW2 to save the Jewish? I thought you guys were the ones that were screaming not to label ALL Muslims with that of the radicals?

      • DaveH

        Graeme,
        There are bad apples in every organization, especially in the government which has the power of force.

      • Jana

        Graeme:
        Two wrongs don’t make a right. These so called priests have to answer to God for themselves.
        However, if a person belongs to a certain church and wants to partake of all that church offers, then he must follow that church’s rules. If he doesn’t want to follow these rules, get out, leave. No one is holding him there. But Kennedy should not think himself above the very church he chose to belong to.

        Graeme B says:
        December 1, 2009 at 10:04 am

        Jean-Luc: What about the priests who perform Mass yet are themselves child abusers and alcoholics. Just read the report that has come out regading the Dublin Diocese regading child abuse, one priest even using his crucifix the penetrate an 11 year old vaginally and anally. Or in Canada where we have a bishop currently on charges of child porn distribution. The thing that has come out with the Irish situation is the term “Mental Reservation” which an archibishop said is permissible for him and the church to use, namely LYING. So for a bishop to say that Kennedy is not worthy to receive communion is completely hypocritical in the extreme.
        Reply

        • eyeswideopen

          Jana, you are on the right path, when you state that they have to answer to God for their actions. That is the point, each of us have to answer to God for our actions, not each other. The final judgement is made by God, not some religious or political group who think they have interperted the bible the correct way and will dole out the appropriate punishment, as they see fit. Our Constitution provides that each person can make their own decisions about religion, their body, and politics.

          • Joe H.

            Eyes,
            The bible also says it is our duty to tell them they are sinning and to tell them to sin no more, that Jesus died on the cross for the sins they commit and will forgive them!!!

          • eyeswideopen

            Joe, yep, but no where does it say to pass judgement on them and carry out a sentence of death, does it?

          • Jana

            eyes,
            You are right that Our Constitution provides that each person can make their own decisions about religion, their body, and politics. It also then means that we can go to whatever church we want and if we do go to a certain church then we ought to follow the edicts of that church. If one does not agree with these edicts they are free to go to any other church that they can find that does agree with they believe.

      • Prometheus

        GraemeB,

      • Thurman Marcum

        GraemeB,

        Yes,the Catholic Church has been lying and coverning up for years.It was not too long ago a Priest was charge with raping young boys.The church tried to cover it up.He was convicted I think it happen in Ohio.This wasn’t a isolated case.It started coming out in other Catholic Churches also,girls were victims too.

        • Joe H.

          Thurman,
          I’d be willing if you searched hard enough you could find bad apples in your church also. Does that mean your whole church or religion is bad?

          • Thurman Marcum

            Joe H,Liberity

            I don’t belong to any church,as a matter of fact I think all religions are a joke.I believe in a universial being.Christianty,Islam and Judaism were borrow from ancient sources.Liberity, why did the Catholic Church got sued and had to pay up huge amounts to the victims.I state only the facts.We need to get out of Afganistan now,we are over there because of Isreal.There is a lot of evidence that Jews have no rightful claim to Palestine.You and I are descendants of ancient Khzarians people from what is now southern Russia.Check it out.

          • Joe H.

            Thurmon,
            And I still bet of all the people that believe as you do there are some pretty bad people also!!!!

          • Joe H.

            Thurman,
            Actually, to be accurate, they didn’t HAVE to pay out large sums as in a court ordered payment, they settled out of court in most of the cases!!!

        • libertytrain

          Thurman- child molesters and pedophiles make a point of being where they can locate easy prey. Schools, churches, Boy Scouts, clubs, organizations, the Internet – — been a recent problem of late in a Baptist Church in SC – the point is, it’s not in one location – not just a Catholic problem. And for many years, EVERYONE tried to keep that kind of crap quiet, hidden. It’s an ugly, embarrassing situation for any of these places, excluding the Internet – where no one is really in charge –The way you wrote your comment was so disappointing to me, coming from you.

      • Prometheus

        GramemeB,

        There are few bad apples in every barrel.A lot of priests are decent and never resort to something as low as that.

      • P. Fitzmorris

        The error in that situation is with the men who committed these crimes not the teachings of the institution. Kennedy doesn’t want to follow the doctrine of the Catholic church then he can leave the Catholic Church. You can’t expect to be in an organization and not follow their rules. The Catholic Church should follow its Canon Law and take the necessary action against Kennedy

    • Paul Revere

      (Comment removed for offensive content)

      • Joe H.

        Paul,
        I suggest you give up drinking for awhile. I say that because you are rambling like a drunk on a highway!!!

  • Jean-Luc Dalmasso

    Kennedy wants to have the cake and eat it. NO WAY. He has got to choose. Either he is a Roman Catholic or he is not. If he is, he can only be Pro Life. If he is Pro Choice, he should stop receiving communion and leave that Church whose teachings he refuses. He will have no difficulty in finding a Church which will fit his convictions.

    • http://googlechrome Rheta Martinez

      Just wanted to say Amen, simply put and right on the mark.
      Either you are with me or against me, thus saieth the Lord.
      The scriptures state that no man can serve two masters.
      you can not stand in two places. Separate Church from State is a cop out
      So you are a Catholic on Sunday when the State is at rest and for the State when the Church is at rest. My problem with that is; God never rests. I am accountable to God everyday and thus my actions and my heart. If his heart is not with God Stop pretending!

    • Bloomfield

      What… and lose the all the Catholics vote?

  • BABUSHSKA

    I, in no way, support Patrick Kennedy on his stance regarding abortion and his continued receiving of the sacrament of communion, but why is this being made public? This is a personal issue between him, his God, and the Bishop, who should not have made this public! I object to whomever released this information. Just because Kennedy is a public person, are there no boundaries left regarding personal privacy?

    • http://googlechrome Rheta Martinez

      Interesting comment, the reason such is made public is that we need to know who and what our public representatives do. I think it is appropriate that we know the Church still stands for something and that when someone violates that, that there are consequences. It applies to all and when one is in the public eye then we need to know so we can make intelligent choices. Hope those in the Political field remember in the end it isn’t what man thought of you but what God thinks of you.
      Who’s side are you on? Gods’ or man? (rhetorical question) not personal.

      • Joe H.

        Rheta,
        The fact was made public by Kennedy protesting that the church wouldn’t let him receive communion!!! Had he kept his big kennedy clan mouth shut, it would have been kept quiet!!!

    • debrarae

      The fact that Patrick Kennedy is being denied communion is being made public by the church, because they want to make certain that everyone knows they will no longer allow such hypocrisy (from their ‘flock’)to happen on it’s watch.

      And to that end, I say AMEN.

      • eyeswideopen

        Debrarae, based on your response, we should see an increase in the babies who are born to the Catholics as they aren’t supposed to receive communion if they practice birth control. Do you think those that practice will turn themselves into the church so they can’t receive it?

        • Joe H.

          Eyes,
          If you do a little research(as you are so fond of telling people) you will find that the Catholics have the larger families in the U.S.!!

        • Joe H.

          eyes, Would you care to tell me how the church knows that they are practicing birth control? Maybe they are practicing rhythm and are quite good at it!!!

  • Robin from Indiana

    To be a Christian and a Democrat is an oxymoron. God knows our hearts regardless what man says and does. He is the one who will decide our eternal fate. Patrick Kennedy has chosen a life that the public follows. Not to be in the public limelight would mean he needs to change his profession. His stance on abortion is for the public to know. The Bishop is also in the public limelight and he follows the doctrines of the church. The Bishop is right; Patrick Kennedy is wrong; according to God’s word. God set the standard, not man.

    • DaveH

      I agree completely with your first sentence Robin. One of the basic Commandments is “thou shalt not steal”. It doesn’t have an exception for government leaders. Possession of property is a basic human right and the Democrats ignore that right in their greedy quest for other peoples’ money.

    • Suford Lewis

      Interesting you should bring up thou shalt not murder. When the gun lobby is so determined to allow guns everywhere that provably leads to more death – is that supporting murder?

      It also brings up the difference between doing something – actually sinning — and allowing others to do it. Now what is the difference between the NRA supporting murder and the abortion rights people here? I am not enough into Catholic doctrine to know whether forcing people to do only virtuous acts makes them virtuous–I would say that it doesn’t, but what do I know?

      I have never heard of any Kennedy actually getting an abortion and I seem to recall several of them saying that they, themselves, never would, but in the US where we are free to choose our own beliefs and there are lots of people who feel it will save their own life, it is an arguably moral position to say: I wouldn’t do it myself, I belong to a religion that opposes it, but in the US the Catholic Church does not rule, and there is not social agreement (indeed, the majority is for abortion) about it, so I support people’s right to follow their own beliefs.

      For absolute sure it is illegal in the US for any religious body to lobby, so that puts the Bishop in an iffy place as he is obviously trying to persuade Patrick Kennedy not to support certain legal issues by threatening him. Here we need to know what the doctrine is on preventing others from sinning to know whether the Bishop has acted properly.

      It all comes down to whether you think you know better than everybody else and thus are justified in forcing everybody to live YOUR way. I myself, expect that such people will have a nasty shock at the Day of Judgement when God tells them different.

      • Joe H.

        Suford L.,
        first off no the kennedy clan never got an abortion that we know of but two of them committed murder Ted by drowning and his nephew or cousin by rape and murder and both got off with it scott free due to the sway of the clan.
        Two if you know the Catholic religion it is very strict on birth control. The teachings of the church are totally against abortion. Therefore it stands that Mr Kennedy should go find a church that believes as he does!!!!

        • Joe H.

          Also suford, how do you know the majority are for abortion? It has never been allowed to go to a vote!! Probably because it wouldn’t pass and they know it! The politicians want it so when they go wherever to cheat on their wives if one is produced it can be made to go away!!!!

        • coal miner

          Joe H,

          It was Ted’s cousin,he should had been prosecuted for rape and murder.Ted Kennedy for manslaughter.I don’t know the correct spelling of Ted’s cousin,I think his may be spelled Skagel.

          • Joe H.

            Yup! The Kennedy clan is steeped in wrong doings!!!

      • Jana

        Suford,

        In the first place you are very wrong in your assumption that if someone owns a gun they are a murderer. That sir is an outrageous statement.

        You say it PROBABLY leads to more death. I will tell you that it does not. When a law abiding citizen is able to arm themselves for PROTECTION then they prevent more deaths.

        The NRA does not support murder and neither do I.In fact, it is not the ones who own guns legally and even have the right to carry a concealed weapon that commit these crimes.

        With your pacifist attitude I feel sorry for your family. If someone would come to harm your family you would be afraid to defend your home because you might kill someone and then you would call that murder. Wow.

        Yet you being a pacifist would murder an innocent little baby.

        It might be you that will have a nasty shock on the Day of Judgment.

        • Joe H.

          Jana,
          To back you up I will say I have three guns in my house and non of the three have ever been fired in anger and surely not at any person!!!! I will, however, add that if someone wants to harm me or my family, well can shoot and if needed will shoot!!!

        • eyeswideopen

          Jana, as usual you jumped to a conclusion that Suford, believes in abortion, he didn’t say state that, you also concluded that he wouldn’t protect his family, he didn’t say that either. You just had to resort to name calling (pacifist), as you felt threatened that he was asking questions about being forced to believe as the radical right wingers demand that we do. He didn’t ask about Capital Punishment, which you Conservatives are all for, even though that person is confined and not an immediate threat to you or your families. Why must you kill someone, is that the only way you can get your justice? This man didn’t say he was for abortions, but anytime anyone questions guns, paranoia sets in and you people go nuts.

          • Joe H.

            Eyes,
            Why must a person put me in the position that I have to use force to defend myself or my family? I can and will shoot to defend my family and myself. It is my right by the law you so steadfastly defend!!!

          • Joe H.

            Eyes,
            An answer?

          • Joe H.

            Brown eyes,
            I guess you have no answer for that, right?

  • Barb

    Robin is right, you cannot have it both ways…either you are a Catholic or you are pro-murder. Let’s face it….abortion is murder.It’s taking a human life whether you want to believe it or not. No where in the Constitution does it say a woman can murder her child either in the womb or out of the womb. This world is the way it is because man has decided his rules are better than God’s and where has it gotten us. Man is full of sin and God is not.

    • James

      Barb, That’s right. Every State in the Union had laws which criminalized the aborting of a child. The U.S. Constitution made no mention of the subject, however in Roe v. Wade the U.S. Supreme Court twisted the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process clause, so as to allow abortions. It says ” No State shall…deprive any person of life…without due process of law.” The key word there is “person.” Just above, it states “All persons born…in the United States…are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” That is, until one is ‘born’ s/he is not a ‘citizen,’ and only citizens have rights.
      So in a literal sense, the High Court was correct. Rewording the first clause in the Fourteenth Amendment (or repealing it) would solve the problem.

  • Barry

    Catholics For Choice States:he is one of many Catholic politicians who stand by both the courage of their convictions and their consciences to support women’s reproductive choices.”

    What courage does it take to kill babies? The Word of God is clear, life begins at conception. God knows when life begins, despite the fact that politicians in Washington do not know this fact.

    Baby killers like Kennedy, Patrick Murphy, and Obama do not have a conscience.

    Who are they to decide what the conscience of America is and what is good for the country? If it goes against God’s Word then it is a sin plain and simple despite what Catholics for Choice believes and says.

    They are better called Catholics for Killing Babies or Baby Killing Catholics.

    Politicans in Washington have no courage and no conscience. Everything they do is based on staying in power and being relected.

    Mr. Kennedey, Murphy and Obama are baby killers plain and simple and God is not going to be fooled by any other title.

    • Wes

      All of the above are correct. Anyone who is really Catholic knows that if they are pro abortion or in general practice anything that is contrary to the teachings of Christ or the church should not receive communion. They should know that that shold not even present themselves to receive communion or any of the sacraments of the Church.

      Notice that it was Kennedy that made the information public, not the bishop or the church.

      This applies to all Catholics but those in public office carry a greater burden because of the example they set.

  • Mister.C

    I would llke to briefly address a couple of issues.

    First, it was Patrick Kennedy who outed the issue not the Bishop. The Bishop was merely responding.

    Secondly, as any true follower of Christ’s Church-The Roman Catholic Church, knows, it is not a democracy or a cafeteria. Members do not/can not vote on doctrine which eminates from God. And they do not/can not pick and choose what beliefs they will accept and abide by. It’s a little bit like being pregnant. Either you are or you aren’t. There is no in between….no compromise.

    • Richard Pawley

      Many excellent letters here. Catholics for Choice is a misnomer, sort of like Protestants for Adultery (hopefully there is no such organization). God specifically forbid the sacrificing of babies to the demon god Baal in the old testament and we have sacrificed nearly 50,000,000 on the altars of Hedonism in the USA in the past 36 years. God is not amused and that is why He has let us elect those in Washington who are doing all they can to inflate the economy by outrageous spending and crash the system, sending us and the world into economic chaos. When people are starving in the next decade perhaps they will feel the need to return to the One True Living God. By the way the true church of Jesus Christ is not limited to buildings and theologies. It consists of all who seek to follow the teachings of Jesus. There are no Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals or Jews in Heaven. There are only those who love God and seek to do His Will and work on earth. St. Paul even mentions that there is a “third Heaven” so obviously there are two others (though the so-called experts try to explain that away) so there is room enough and apparently levels enough for all who are righteous in God’s eyes (not necessarily in their own). In both my books I devoted a few pages to this topic because it is part of what is happening in our economy and the world and soon, ALL WILL BE AFFECTED.

      • Jana

        Richard, I am a protestant, and I certainly don’t know of any protestant for adultery organization. I certainly hope not either.
        Catholic or Protestants we are all believers in the same God and believe that if we go to a certain church then we should follow the edicts of that church.

        Women are always saying that they should have a right to choose what to do with their own bodies. They do have that right. They have the right to abstain till they are married, or to sleep with 50 different men if they want. They also have the right to use protection to keep from getting pregnant. After they are pregnant, they are then carrying someone elses body and soul in them and they have no right to choose to murder that baby and that soul.

        • Suford Lewis

          I see we have a difference between a right to control something and the actual power to control it. There would be no abortions if women REALLY had the power to control their own bodies. No one would be able to persuade, drug, or coerce them into sex or deceive them about whether they were using a condom or otherwise get an unready women pregnant. In an ideal world, women would know whether they were at risk for toxemia of pregnancy or any of the nasty, life-threatening conditions that a pregnant women faces.

          So do people have the right to kill someone who is threatening their life? It may not be a “right” but juries usually rule that way.

          I also recall a case where a twin sued his sibling to force him to donate one of his kidneys to him because he would die without a transplant. It was ruled that just because it would save a life, the other twin could not be forced to undergo the risk of major surgery. It seems to me that is very similar to the situation of the fetus needing the mother’s body to survive and how much risk the mother should be forced to undergo. Interesting that in the case of the twins, there was no controversy when a man said he should not be forced even to inconvenience himself–have we got a bit of a double standard here?

          • Joe H.

            Suford,
            Most people don’t argue against the aborting of a baby that truly threatens the life of the mother. There were very few of the over 50,000,000 abortions that truly threatened the mothers life. It was abortion for convenience and I say that is murder!!!

          • Joe H.

            Richard Pawley,
            Jesus also said ” suffer not the children for they are as pure as the driven snow!!!!!!

      • Bloomfield

        What a load of crap!

    • eyeswideopen

      Mister.C. so you agree that all Catholics who practice birth control should be banned from receiving communion? Since they can’t pick and choose, they should be obeying all the rules, including not condoning capital punishment is that correct?

      • Joe H.

        HOW DOES THE CHURCH KNOW? THEY CAN’T READ MINDS!!! KENNEDY HAS STATED MANY TIMES HE SUPPORTS ABORTION!!!!PUBLICLY!!!!!!

  • SAL

    from day one, the Kennedy’s thought they could do anything they wanted to do– and have done many terrible things that have heart so many people– I’ve been there– WHY DON’T WE PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE WHOLE DAMN FAMILY– from now on I will never look or think about the whole damn group– go to HELL!

    • Joe H.

      Sal,
      Oh, I think that’s being arranged right now up above!!!!

  • marvin

    to the people that thank killing unborn,s is ok. they are real humans it is one thing to stop concepion.that is where a womans right end and the unborn,s begin liberals like kennedy and obama and pelosie think it is ok to murder babies in the womb but if you were to break a baby,s finger you are a monster .god willnot forget or will he forgive we all will be judged for this by allowing but when you have people like obama that think it is above his pay grade to know when life begin,s or allow gay to marry do not belive in god it is only for show and to get vote,s

    • Joe H.

      Marvin,
      These people think it is alright to abort because they don’t really believe there IS God!!! Imagine the look on their dumbfounded faces when they come before the one true God for judgment! I hope I never have that!!! I have done some bad things in my life but I have accepted the lord into my life and have asked his forgiveness. Since then I have tried to live the life I think he would want me to.

    • Richard Pawley

      Marvin, God will forgive any sin if the sinner truly seeks His forgiveness. That is why Jesus was born and died to make that possible. However, the person has to seek forgiveness and really mean it. “Aye, there’s the rub!” as Shakespeare said in another context. The sinner can fool others, and even himself, but no one fools God. “As you sow, so shall you reap” so no one gets away with anything, they are either forgiven or they will experience all the pain that they have caused in others. That’s just the way the universe operates. It’s why we pray for sinners that they will change. It’s why Jesus said not to hate our enemies. Those who cause others to suffer will, MUST, experience all the havoc or pain they create. Those terrorists who kill so many are going to a hell of their own making that we cannot even conceive. Never wish anyone evil for that is, in itself, evil. Our concept of justice is but a dim reflection of Eternal Justice. Good or bad no one gets away with anything forever. There are those who hate the Kennedy’s but look at all they have suffered right here in this life! Our job is to pray for those who need it. They may be helped and if not we surely will.

  • ONTIME

    The Bishop had every right to address the habits and actions of Kennedy who seems to be nothing but a hypocrite and uses the church to foster his public image and assuage his guilt. My hat is off to the church in this matter.

    It was Kennedy who made the request public and it is Kennedy the hypocrite who promotes abortion.

  • Leslie

    “Churchification” [ term coined by Madame Blavatsky when she was accused of being anti-Christian ] IS politically entangled. But “spirituality” is NOT. The latter acknowledges one and only one power, that of the heavenly Father, God. There are Caesar’s “belongings” and then there are God’s “belongings” In my opinion, ‘churchification’ DOES get involved in issues of ‘power.’
    ————————————————————-
    * BTW Mme. B. admitted she WAS anti-churchification!

    • AZ Rifleman

      Leslie,
      First of all, the killing of the unborn is not a political issue it is an intrensic evil, and one of the greatest abominations (sins) witnesses by God at the hands of mankind. To accept, approve, support or create an avenue for this in a society is pursuing a way of life in continual opposition to God’s will.

      When a person chooses a dynamic and continous opposition to God (A way of life) That person is choosing to live in a state of mortal (Deadly) sin which is even greater when by doing so that person chooses to openly influence the degredation of other souls by personal/ public influence or favorable representation of such matters.

      If such person in such a state in life accepts the eucharist (the body of Christ) he is not receiving grace but calling onto himself condemnation from heaven…” Those who receive the Holy Eucharist who are not in a state of grace, call down upon themselves condemnation which they will have to answer for upon their parting from this world”…

      Anyone who offers communion “Body or Blood” to this person is not doing them any favors, but is rather assisting that person in the process of condemnation. The relevancy is that Communion in the Catholic Church IS TRUELY the Body and Blood of Christ.

  • s c

    No one is truly ‘religious’ or moral when a baby is looked at as a mere ‘piece of flesh.’ Anyone who believes that might as well say that we’re not human until we’re born.
    As I recall, no monkeys, gorillas, dolphins, birds, dogs, cats, seals or polar bears ever emerged from woman’s womb. I’m no biologist, but it seems to safe to say I’m right in making that statement.
    Consequently, unless or until someone can prove that other life forms can exist in a woman’s womb and naturally complete the birth process, the idea that what is in a woman’s womb is just a ‘piece of flesh’ is unadulterated crap.
    Abortion is self-centered expedience. It is politics in its lowest form. It is pc. It is cruel-and-unusual punishment at its worst. It is taken from the non-scientific pages of eugenics, compliments of Adolf Hitler and many other infamous paranoid schizophrenics. It is easy money for those who are anything but scientists or ‘healers.’
    If you can find reasons to abort a baby, you can find reasons to “abort” anyone at any age. Abortion is proof that evolution is crap. It is proof that
    civilization has NOT really progressed. It is proof that quick fixes can’t make you moral. It proves that morality and politics don’t mix. It also proves that a conscience can be ‘aborted’ without a scalpel. Homo sap is appropriate. Homo sapiens is a non sequitur and a sick joke.

    • Joe H.

      s c,
      These people would be raising hell if they were monkeys or lizards or even turtles, they care more about them!!! They were going to build the biggest solar plant in the world in the California, big enough to power three million homes or more. the property has sat vacant for two years because the enviro-nuts are worried about ten turtles and 2 flat tailed lizards!!!! I’m telling you, California deserves any brown outs they experience!!!!

      • s c

        JoeH, after watching the three-ring circus called California for many years, I’m covinced they probably got what they deserved (a governor many of them still think is a conservative). Arnie is a conservative like I’m saul alinsky.
        If they preach alternative energy there [that America MUST have], but can’t deliver because it might offend some turtles and lizards, it is safe to say that 49 other states will be seeing MANY
        ex-Californians headed their way.
        Some people have to learn the hard way that common sense is an extremely valuable (and rare) ASSET. Worship of mama earth is a decaying, world-class horse’s asset.

        • Joe H.

          s c
          I swear it’s true it was either 10 or 11 desert turtles and two freakin’ flat tailed lizards!!!! As the one wrestler said beliee dat!!!

      • DaveH

        Joe and SC,
        As long as there is the possibility of Death from Childbirth, it is quite a step for us to make somebody else’s decisions. There are many extenuating circumstances that the child-bearing woman might suffer besides death. We can advise or preach to that woman, but to force our will on her is none of our business.
        If we do not have the freedom to control our own body, then we have no freedom.

        • Jana

          Dave, If she wanted to control her own body that would be fine. After she is pregnant she now wants to murder the body of her unborn child. That is controlling someone elses body.

          • Jana

            Also, if the mother’s life is in danger, then that is a different matter. A heartbreaking matter, but it changes things greatly.

        • Joe H.

          DaveH,
          I have never said I was against the aborting of a child if it it truly is a case of life and death. But tell me how many of all the abortions since they were deemed legal were because the mothers life was in danger!!! A friend of mines sister died in child birth knowing that she would die in the process, told the Dr. if he murdered her baby she would sue him. The Dr made her sign papers and let her give birth!!!

        • s c

          DaveH, I don’t advocate force. One thing the abortion crowd loves to dodge is the idea that if a woman has a known problem with a pregnancy, then she is obligated NOT to get pregnant. Abortion fans never put any emphasis on the idea of preventing a pregnancy. It’s too ‘easy’ to be concerned AFTER the fact.
          The issue could have been handled better if people made it strictly a matter between them and an MD. When politicians grabbed the issue, it was utterly compromised, and America had its morals and common sense gutted in the process.
          Please realize that abortion fans can find many reasons to have an abortion performed. Try and find ONE who has enough integrity to demand that it be done sans MONEY. DaveH, abortion is all about POWER and MONEY. Morality in the abortion issue has been ‘surgically removed’ by people who will do anything to treat the rest of us like cattle. You and I have much in common, but I will NEVER give any abortion fans the benefit of any doubt – especially a politician. We have to answer to God. A politician sees the issue via easy votes, false prestige and political expediency. Why should I have any use for such people?

        • DaveH

          Jana, Joe, SC,
          I know it’s a tough issue. The Catholics used to believe it was wrong to use birth control (don’t know if they still do). To stop a viable egg from giving life could in some people’s mind be akin to murder. I believe that until that baby can live outside the body, it is not alive. Whether abortion is immoral or not is an individual opinion. I don’t think anybody has a greater stake in the process of birth then the pregnant mother and I think ultimately it is up to her to make that decision.

          • Jana

            Dave, that sounds nice, but it is not what the Lord says. If we were to start giving animals abortions you would see an outcry that would shake the world. Kill a baby and its ok.

            When Mary conceived Jesus, she arose and went to see Elizabeth who was her Aunt. She was pregnant with John (the Baptist) and was 6 months along. When Mary walked in the babe lept in Elizabeth’s womb and Elizabeth prophesized about Mary’s baby.

          • Joe H.

            DaveH,
            The Dr.s are saving babies earlier and earlier after complications. What are you going to say when medical science can save them from day one?

        • Thurman Marcum

          DaveH,

          You are right.I think it is a mother’s right. The baby could be deformed or retarded.There would be a life time of misery for that child if it is brought into this world.It is up to the mother.It is no one else’s business.

          • Joe H.

            Thurman,
            I am raising a handicapped child right now. Does he have any less right to live than you? Or anybody else here for that matter? please answer soon I’m curious as to your reasoning behind your statement!!

        • eyeswideopen

          DaveH. I am surprised that you are risking the anger of the Conservatives on this site, by standing by your party’s platform of freedom of choice. Glad to see you take a stand.

  • David S

    I’m catholic, and I’m not prochoice, nor i believe in abortion. I believe live its a Give, an no one should end it for their on convenience. But I also understand what the State its for; and Event if I believe that a Christian (a truly one) it better to rule the government than a non one, I understand that Religious and government should be 2 separated things, and that its what Christ also believe, He did not reveal against government, he summited to it, and also shall we. The bible said, there would be a time when father and sons would go against each other, and I think this is what it was talking about or part of it. Church should advice the one in government but not use their power to go against them. And about him taking the Body of Christ, I think he its living and in a sin, a public and notorious one, which he its not repelled from, so he its not in an state of communion with God, so he cannot receive his body, the same goes for us who do not practice confession and resived the body of Christ non purified, so in that aspect we are not the one to judge him.

  • Jan Surówka

    Hi to everybody in this discussion,

    Catholic ( Christian ) faith is about sin.
    You shall not kill ! says the commandment.
    If someone is pro-killing then he or she commits a sin. And as the Catechism states in one of the Seven spiritual works of mercy: Admonish sinners! So the bishop had a right and even duty to “admonish” the sinner.
    I am afraid it is impossible to see a consistency between the Patric Kennedy’s political views ( pro abortion stance ) and his spiritual life. They cannot go together at all – IMPOSSIBLE.

    also from the Catechism: “Freedom implies also the possibility of choosing between good and evil. The choice of evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to the slavery of sin.”
    One can conclude from this behaviour: either Mr P. Kennedy is not aware what he is doing ( then he should be enlightened by someone wiser ) or he is obstinate in his sins. The second opinion is more probable ( after all how come an educated person pretending to be Catholic cannot understand the basic truths of his faith ? )
    “Being obstinate in his sins” is the sin against The Holy Spirit – so it will not be forgiven !!!
    One may say: but we are free to chose. Of course, but what is the freedom ? Let for the answer suffice an excerpt from the Sirach Book of the Bible, chapter 15:
    “The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man’s every deed.
    No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies.”

    Finally:
    Wasn’t one of your greatest presidents to say ?:
    I’ve noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. ~Ronald Reagan, quoted in New York Times, 22 September 1980

    Jan from Poland, Europe

    • James

      Jan S, I’m sure that, in the eyes of God, abortion is a sin, but preaching that to the U.S. Supreme Court, falls on deaf ears. They are bound by the U.S. Constitution’s Fourteenth Amendment which states that one is not a ‘citizen’ until s/he is born in the United States, and until one is born here, s/he has no rights. If the Amendment were altered to read “anyone conceived in the United States is a citizen of the United States” then killing a human fetus would be murder.

      • Joe H.

        James,
        Let’s not forget there was a little word wrangling when that law was passed also!!

    • Joe H.

      Jan,
      I guess it takes a person that is removed far from our shores to put it so perfectly and with such evidence. I’m grateful to you!!!

    • eyeswideopen

      Jan, what about our capital punishment that the Catholic church is against? That is killing and shouldn’t it be treated the same way that abortion is?

      • Jana

        Eyes, do you really believe capital punishment is killing?

        • eyeswideopen

          Jana, yes, they are no longer alive are they? I used to believe in capital punishment before I became a born again Christian. I was young and didn’t comprehend that if just one innocent life is taken, due to human error, then it is worth not killing at all. Capital punishment has not proven to be a deterrent of crimes. Hard to imagine standing before Christ and saying oops, I made a mistake, the man I put to death was innocent. I don’t understand how you can pick and choose what you consider killing. How can you condemn people getting abortions, and yet authorize killing someone else? As I remember, Jesus really hated hypocrites and I have yet to hear a good arguement of why it is ok, to have capital punishment, as vengence is the Lord’s.

          • Joe H.

            eyes,
            I’ll explain again!! A CONVICTED criminal has been found to be guilty of a capital crime by a jury. An unborn child is the only truly innocent among us as it says in the bible you claim to read that to BREATH is to sin. The unborn has yet to take a breath!!!

          • Jana

            eyes,
            I thought that is how you would feel. Maybe you need to do a little more research into what the Bible says.

  • Thurman Marcum

    Joe H,

    My wife and I had a beautifil little boy who had a seizure when he was two, he had been retarded every since.He had the mind of year and half old child. He had flaming red hair, a smile that would melt your heart.Billy Jim had seizures, some times two a day,He was thirty-two years old when he passed a way,that was five years ago. If I know now,when my wife was pregnant I wouldn’t want the baby brought into this world.We love him very much. We call him the baby.We spoil hin rotten and we miss him.

    • Thurman Marcum

      Joe,

      I mispel beautiful.

    • Joe H.

      Thurman, My son has had as many as 8 and 10 seizures a day. Using topiramate, dilantin, depakote and clonidine, he is down to maybe one a week to one every two weeks. he is mentally handicapped and we love him dearly. I would not take one million dollars for one day I have spent with him. Would I have tried to talk my wife into aborting him? Hell no!!! (there’s another you can remove Bob!) Would I wish for him to be normal? No doubt in my mind!! I also have two beautiful daughters that have nothing wrong with them, but I don’t love him any less than them and never will. I used to fear what might happen to him when we are gone but now I don’t as both of my girls have said that they will see that he’s taken care of. He’s 27 now and is very well taken care of!!!

      • Jana

        Joe, I have some very dear friends that are in a similar situation. He is in his 30′s and has Downs. He is a blessing to all concerned.
        My niece has a ten yr. old who has seizures and her little body is crippled but this little girl is smart and precious and we all love her and the whole family dearly. She is a strong life and an enjoyable one. My respect for parents of children with these major handicaps is immense. My hat is off to you. It is hard work, but oh so worth it.

        • Joe H.

          Jana,
          I have found the biggest reward is when he looks at me and says “I luv you daddy!!!”

  • Thurman Marcum

    Joeh

    I ran out of replies,That is a belief nothing more or nothing less.There is a lot of people out there believe as same as I,commit despicable acts and some are decent law biding citizens.When a organization or a religion of any kind trys to cover up some thing that is immoral or evil, that is another matter.

    • Joe H.

      Thurman,
      I agree with your last sentence 100%. no argument at all!!!

  • Mona

    Abortion is an evil practice and so is anyone that approves of it. I guess the Church tolerates the Kennedy’s because of the money they contribute. Patrick Kennedy sounds like a raving lunatic anyway. He is an embarrassment to the Kennedy family.

  • Richard

    Some have commented on Catholic priests being child molesters and it reminded me of that old saying, “Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers.”

    Birth control is offensive to God’s plan for us but infanticide (abortion) is even more so. Prevention vs. murder is vastly different but still offends our Creator. Want to make effective “Planned Parrenthood” decisions, then start planning parenthood. Choose abstinence instead of accidents.

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