Comments Subscribe to Personal Liberty News Feed Subscribe to Personal Liberty
 

Beware The Unions’ Idea Of Immigration Reform

March 1, 2013 by  

Beware The Unions’ Idea Of Immigration Reform
PHOTOS.COM

Barack Obama and his union buddies have made it clear what they mean by “immigration reform.” That is, a clear path to citizenship for the 11 million people who are in this country illegally.

If they get their way, guess how many of those new citizens will become Democratic voters?

And guess how many will be targets for union membership?

So it should come as no surprise that when the President gave a major speech on immigration reform in Las Vegas earlier this year, AFL-CIO head Richard Trumka was invited to sit in the front row. Afterward, Trumka said it was clear what the top priority of any such program must be: citizenship and all of its privileges for anyone who is in this country illegally.

For “privileges,” read “voting Democratic.” Oh, and “paying union dues.”

The Services Employees International Union says that it will spend millions of dollars to rally support for such legislation. Top officials of the SEIU have made it clear that passage of such a bill is their top priority this year.

No wonder. In recent years, Hispanics have comprised the fastest-growing segment of union membership. According to the Labor Department’s Bureau of Labor Statistics, their numbers jumped by 21 percent over the past decade and now make up one-quarter of SEIU membership. Meanwhile, over the same 10-year period, white union membership declined by 13 percent.

One of the biggest problems the unions are facing is that when workers aren’t forced to join a union, many won’t. After Indiana passed a right-to-work law last year, union membership in the State declined by 18 percent. In Wisconsin, passage of a right-to-work law in 2011 led to a huge and bitter battle to rescind the legislation and force Governor Scott Walker out of office. When that effort failed, union membership in the State declined by more than 13 percent.

No wonder the unions are licking their chops at the thought of organizing a substantial chunk of the 11 million immigrants who are in this country illegally. They will be satisfied with nothing less than a quick and easy path to citizenship. Hopefully, Republicans in Congress will stand fast and make sure they don’t get it.

By the way, one thing the unions definitely don’t want included in any immigration reform is an effective guest worker program. While Big Labor likes to claim that temporary workers would “steal American jobs,” that’s a bunch of hooey. Granting citizenship to 11 million illegal aliens would enable them to “steal” a lot more jobs than guest workers could ever dream of filling.

No, the reality is that temporary workers don’t join unions or pay union dues. Is it any surprise that the unions don’t want them here? No wonder Barack Obama omitted any mention of a guest worker program in his immigration speech. Nor did it appear in the White House’s paper on immigration principles.

Senator Marco Rubio, the son of Cuban immigrants who has emerged as a leading Republican spokesman for a compromise solution, has said: “The bottom line is that if we can’t convince people of all backgrounds, including Americans of Hispanic descent, that limited government and free enterprise is a better way, not just for them, but for the country, not only is the conservative movement doomed, but ultimately I think America is doomed, in terms of us continuing being an exceptional nation.”

That’s pretty optimistic, don’t you think?

Another Battle Big Labor Wants To Win

Remember the brouhaha that erupted a year ago, when Obama appointed three new members to the National Labor Relations Board without allowing the Senate to “advise and consent”? The President said he could do so because they were “recess” appointments when the Senate was not in session.

The problem was that the Senate said it was in session. The chamber met every day, even if just for a few moments, precisely to stop the President from doing what he did. The dispute soon moved to the courts.

Last month, a federal appeals court in Washington ruled unanimously that Obama violated the Constitution by making the appointments. As a result, the NLRB lacked a legal quorum since January 2012, which means that every decision it issued in the past 13 months could be thrown out.

Two weeks ago, the President re-nominated two of the people he appointed: former Labor Department official Sharon Block and former union lawyer Richard F. Griffin Jr., both pro-union stalwarts. (Obama’s third nominee had previously resigned and did not seek reappointment.)

This time around, Obama did submit the nominations to the Senate, so the upper chamber can fulfill its traditional role to “advise and consent.” Look for a lively battle over their confirmations.

But you can expect even more fireworks — and lawsuits — over the activities of the NLRB. Chairman Mark Pearce has announced that he disagrees with the Federal court ruling and is going to carry on as though nothing happened.

As a result, one critic (Home Depot co-founder and former chairman Bernie Marcus) declared in an opinion piece in The Wall Street Journal: “After making hundreds of decisions that killed jobs and increased economic uncertainty, the board is set up to decide a hundred more.”

Marcus issued his statement in his new role as head of a new nonprofit organization he helped found, the Job Creators Alliance. He explained: “Today, many job creators are being punished for doing business. Confiscatory taxes. Suffocating regulations. Stifling energy costs. Businesses that have joined the Job Creators Alliance face these challenges every day. Now they must also endure a rogue agency thumbing its nose at an unambiguous and unanimous court ruling. How are they supposed to have the confidence to invest and create jobs?”

How indeed?

Legislation has been introduced in Congress that will bar the NLRB from enforcing any decisions until it has a quorum that has been approved by the Senate. But don’t expect it to be passed anytime soon, and don’t expect the NLRB chairman to pay attention if it is passed.

Marcus got it right when he wrote: “Worried business owners don’t invest, expand and create jobs. They hunker down and try to survive.”

That’s a pretty good description of what all of us will have to do as long as Obama sits in the White House and Democrats control the Senate. The next two years will require every Constitutionalist to “hunker down and try to survive.”

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

Facebook Conversations

Join the Discussion:
View Comments to “Beware The Unions’ Idea Of Immigration Reform”

Comment Policy: We encourage an open discussion with a wide range of viewpoints, even extreme ones, but we will not tolerate racism, profanity or slanderous comments toward the author(s) or comment participants. Make your case passionately, but civilly. Please don't stoop to name calling. We use filters for spam protection. If your comment does not appear, it is likely because it violates the above policy or contains links or language typical of spam. We reserve the right to remove comments at our discretion.

Is there news related to personal liberty happening in your area? Contact us at newstips@personalliberty.com

  • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

    Keep screwing and fleecing the American workers Union Scums! I hope there will be more Right to Work Laws passed from other states, Then your money vine will dry up, No more you going to screw and fleece the American workers, sending $$ to commiecraps, your fat bosses, and so on! It’s known Unions wants to recruit Illegals to screw American Workers and fatting up their piggy banks!

    • nc

      MEX, WANT TO KNOW WHO ELSE IS RECRUITING THOSE “ILLEGALS”? BIG ‘FREE MARKET’ FARM CORPORATIONS AND LARGE “FREE MARKET” HOTEL CHAINS, JUST TO NAME A FEW OF THE EXPLOITER CORPS. THEY WANT “BAGAIN” LABOR JUST AS MUCH AS THEY WANT A “BARGIN PRICE” ON THE SUPPLIES THEY PURCHASE.

      If that bargain labor is cut off completely you can get ready for $10 tomatoes and $2 each strawberries, if you can find them at all. ALSO YOU MIGHT WANT TO PRACTICE WASHING YOUR OWN SHEETS WHEN YOU TAKE YOUR TWO WEEK “DREAM” VACATION! WE DON’T NEED THOSE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY!! OR DO WE???

      • tony newbill

        Hey I wonder if the Illegals will be given these Homes ????

        America’s Foreclosure Wars, The US Federal And State Governments Conspiring With Criminal Organiztions To Seize Private Property

        http://mattweidnerlaw.com/blog/2013/02/americas-foreclosure-wars-the-us-federal-and-state-governments-conspiring-with-criminal-organiztions-to-seize-private-property/

      • TheTruthHurts

        Besides being very disrespectful & assuming that every worker at a hotel is an ‘illegal’, you also assume that once these same “illegals” that are in USA are granted citizenship, that their pay will drastically change upwards (i.e your comment of tomatoes costing $10/pop), given that they are underpaid & overworked (which is not always the case, as I have worked in different industries- labor (installing fence, building houses) & service(restaurant & clothing store) & many of the “illegals” are very well compensated for their work (although not ALL, but this can be said of nearly any industry, legal or illegal status).

        Would this be an example of the so called ‘free market’ at work? Farmers, for example, may have to pay bigger salaries to workers (assuming they are underpaid compared) due to minimum wage laws, cost of production & thus products rise bc the change in income will be passed on to consumers; consumers then have the choice to purchase said products, or not.

        Unfortunately (but perhaps premeditated) many small business will go out of business bc they cannot compensate for the immediate change in revenue in/out (salary vs income)… so many of these workers, now laid off, will be on the gov’t dole…. hypothetically. Or they may now be sucked back up into a much larger corporation (subsidized farming for soy or corn), giving consumers a limited choice, and now not much of a free market…

        quite a conundrum

      • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

        Gee! Gringo N(ut) C(ase)! For a Libtard shouting in caps! Well duh! Everyone know business hire cheap labor to exploit my people and other people from other countries! The key word US gov. is not enforcing laws! If you want to hurt the business pocket books triple the fines and make them cover the cost of deportation, if they move overseas for cheap labor double their taxes, It’s a good punishment for these scum hiring Illegals over American workers and Legals! So you think produce is going up more than $10 a pop by removing Illegals from fields? Here’s a better way Put Lazy Welfare bums to work! Free labor to farmers also use Prison & Jail Inmates (Not High risk kind Murderers, Rapist ect.) Problem solved! As for practice washing my sheets, Why I need practice?? I already got a washer, I do my own things, I dont need to hire Illegals or legals or anyone, I like to things myself! And we don’t need Illegals in this country! they already cost tax payers Billions, You Demopukes/Rinos Give Illegals everything on a silver platter, While people waiting in lines do the right way, They don’t get things handed to them on a silver platter because they never ask for it! So NC why don’t you try to live in some country Illegally, Lets see how their citizens feel that they have to support a parasite like you living off their tax money and taking their jobs! I’m sure the citizens will not like that taking their jobs!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        MexicanRetardTurd is really a “sleeper”. He’s a right wing nut Caucasian crazy who wants to make all Mexicans look bad by posting such ignorant and offensive trash. Unfortunately, this tactic will work with the mindless who love to hear things that agree with what they already believe, as deluded and mindless as those beliefs may be.

        “My people”, he says? He must be a neo-Nazi or KKK member—-they are “his people”.

      • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

        Hey Left brainless stinker! A angry Gringo Libtard attacks a minority, Awww! Keep calling me with your race hating names like MexicanRetardTurd, Why you Caucasian Libtards get angry When we Minorities leaving your Libtard camps in droves and refuse to join the dark side?? A mexican speak the truth and I proved Libtards like you will insult a Minorities even using racist names who is not in a Libtard program! Hey angry Libtard! you can say I’m Caucasian, Not all Mexicans are dark, there are mexicans with Spaniard Caucasian color! Go back to your Democrap KKK wear your hooded sheets they are your people! I really exposed you! and touched your raw nerve! Sicko! So brainless stinker if I was Asian or black, or Native American What names you going to call me or someone else?? Keep attacking Minorities show your Libtard true colors!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        MexicanPuke,

        I’m not attacking a “minority” (except that there aren’t too many like you on the planet, thank God). I’m attacking a fool that thinks anyone would believe he speaks for “Mexicans”. I actually picture you as a shaved head, fat and sloppy, palefaced biker type with Nazi tattoos and eyes too close together. Keep squirming and looking stupid—-of course, that’s your aim, isn’t it? Making “minorities” look bad?

        • Frank Kahn

          Whats the matter, RBT, your nurse forget to come help you change your dirty depends undergarments?

          I picture you as a fat old senile and very frustrated white man, who is incapable of rational thought due to atrophy of his brain functions.

          You put him down for attempting to voice his opinion about how Mexicans feel? What about your claiming that only scientific opinions that you agree with are valid? Or, claiming that you know more about global warming than almost every other person in the world? Or the fact that you have about a 1% reading comprehension level?

          I think you will probably need to add him to the list of people that think like me. Maybe you can even accuse him of being me, the way you have shown the desire to with all who oppose you.

          When you are ready for a battle of facts and logic, I am always ready to defend the truth against your close minded and twisted view of science. Heck, I can even explain where your science research god of “THE REPUBLICAN BRAIN” made his big mistakes. In fact, I can point out every mistake you make in your assertions about any scientific facts. I just hope I can get a chance to ask that idiot who claimes “we can send a space ship out of this universe”, what universe will our space ship travel to?

          Here is another thought experiment, good for anyone that has simple knowledge of math and its properties.

          If E = MC SQUARED, WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING IS TRUE
          E/C SQUARED = M OR
          M = C SQUARED / E OR
          E / M = C SQUARED

      • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

        Left brainless Stinker! You still foaming at the mouth again! You are still a angry Caucasian Libtard! You still can’t handle the fact Mexicans, Black, Asians don’t go for your Libtard crap! See I kept on proving you are a angry Caucasian Libtard! I do speak for my people There are Mexicans Can’t stand Libtards like you! We opposed Illegals They should be Deported and gone! Hey your the expert on stupidity, You are the master of stupidity of Libtards! Keep up the good work keep attacking Minorities expose yourself! I thank God I’m not a Democrap like you, I hope one day My fellow Mexicans will wake up and leave the Democrap in droves and leave the dark side!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank Kahn is back in his endless quest to score a point, ANY point, against me. The score is about 273 to 3 in my favor, Frank. You’ll never catch up.

        Especially when the very first thing you say as you attempt to show us your brilliance is, “Whats the matter, RBT, your nurse forget to come help you change your dirty depends undergarments?”

        Frank then suffers another “logic fail” when he asks, “You put him down for attempting to voice his opinion about how Mexicans feel?”, to say nothing of the other gibberish that follows. Yes, Frank, I put him down because it is my opinion that he is NOT a Mexican but someone who is trying to make Mexicans look bad. Since he is not a Mexican, he has no right to be voicing opinions about how Mexicans feel.

        Frank says, “I think you will probably need to add him to the list of people that think like me. Maybe you can even accuse him of being me, the way you have shown the desire to with all who oppose you”. No, I probably won’t do that—-his writing style and rantings are different enough that I think you are two different people, although he does seem to match you in NON thinking ability. You and Vigilant sound much more alike.

        Frank is quite delusional/demented this AM. He says, “Heck, I can even explain where your science research god of “THE REPUBLICAN BRAIN” made his big mistakes” Remember folks, that’s the book Frank refuses to read because he can tell from the title that it’s “biased” LOL.

        OK, FRANK, ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP—EXPLAIN WHERE MOONEY MADE HIS BIG MISTAKES.

        Frank gets carried away some more when he says. “In fact, I can point out every mistake you make in your assertions about any scientific facts”.

        OK, FRANK, yet ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP—POINT OUT EVERY MISTAKE I HAVE MADE IN ASSERTING “SCIENTIFIC” FACTS.

        “I just hope I can get a chance to ask that idiot who claims “we can send a space ship out of this universe”, what universe will our space ship travel to?”
        Uh Frank, aren’t YOU the one who said that?

        And Frank finishes with another “non-thought experiment” Demonstrate your “simple knowledge of math and its properties”, Frank, by explaining to us why one of the three alternatives is incorrect..

        Score is now 280 RBT, 3 Frank. Whack-a-Mole is such fun.

        • Frank Kahn

          As usual, RBT, fails to put forth any viable argument about anything.

          We will break down his mindless stupidity by sentence.

          HE / SHE / IT SAYS:

          “Frank Kahn is back in his endless quest to score a point, ANY point, against me. ”

          ANYTIME ANYONE USES ANY FACT IN ANY POST ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, THEY SCORE POINTS AGAINST YOU, NO EFFORT IS NECESSARY.

          “The score is about 273 to 3 in my favor, Frank. You’ll never catch up.”

          SINCE YOU HAVE NEVER USED ANY FACTS, AND IN FACT ALWAYS STOOP TO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS, YOU HAVE A SCORE OF 0. I AM NOT KEEPING SCORE, SINCE IT IS ABOUT TRUTH AND SCIENCE, YOU HAVE FAILED TO PARTICIPATE. IF YOU WERE TO SCORE THIS, THEN I WOULD BE AHEAD BY WHATEVER NUMBER OF POSTS YOU HAVE USED MY NAME IN.

          “Especially when the very first thing you say as you attempt to show us your brilliance is, “Whats the matter, RBT, your nurse forget to come help you change your dirty depends undergarments?”

          YES, RBT, I APOLOGIZE FOR BRINGING UP YOUR PHYSICAL HANDICAPS. I AM NOT THE PERSON WHO IS ATTEMPTING TO PROVE (UNSUCCESSFULLY) HIS BRILLIANCE. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO USES A BELIEF SYSTEM THAT IS WHOLLY SELF CONTAINED AND NOT SUPPORTED OR EMBRACED BY ANY CREDIBLE AUTHORITY.

          “Frank then suffers another “logic fail” when he asks, “You put him down for attempting to voice his opinion about how Mexicans feel?”

          SINCE YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT LOGIC IS, I WILL FORGIVE YOUR IDIOCY IN THIS STATEMENT.

          “, to say nothing of the other gibberish that follows.”

          AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK BASED ON PROOF BY ASSERTION. YOUR OPINION IN REGARDS TO WHAT IS GIBBERISH IS SUSPECT. YOU USE MANY WORDS INCORRECTLY AND HAVE NEVER GIVEN ANY SUPPORTING LOGIC FOR YOUR DETERMINATIONS.

          ” Yes, Frank, I put him down because it is my opinion that he is NOT a Mexican but someone who is trying to make Mexicans look bad. ”

          DID SOMEONE PRETEND THAT YOUR OPINION IS ACCEPTABLE? IS YOUR OPINION BASED ON FACTS? IS YOUR OPINION ON HIS ETHNICITY BASED ON RBT THOUGHTS, LIKE YOUR OPINIONS ON THINGS LIKE GLOBAL WARMING?

          “Since he is not a Mexican, he has no right to be voicing opinions about how Mexicans feel.”

          SINCE YOU ARE NOT A SCIENTIST, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO VOICE AN OPINION ON SCIENTIFIC MATTERS. YOUR STATEMENT IS PROOF BY BALD ASSERTION, WHICH MEANS YOU ARE SIMPLY USING YOUR BIASED PERSONAL OPINION TO TRY AND CLAIM SOMETHING AS FACT.

          “Frank says, “I think you will probably need to add him to the list of people that think like me. Maybe you can even accuse him of being me, the way you have shown the desire to with all who oppose you”. No, I probably won’t do that—-his writing style and rantings are different enough that I think you are two different people,”

          LIE!!!!! YOU CLAIMED APN WAS ME ALSO, AND HIS COMMENTS IN NO WAY RESEMBLE MINE. YOU CLAIMED VIGILANT WAS ME, AND, AGAIN, HIS COMMENTS DON’T RESEMBLE MINE. THE ONLY CORRELATION OF THEIR COMMENTS TO MINE IS THE FACT THAT WE ALL RECOGNIZE YOU FOR A FAKE AND FRAUD WHEN IT COMES TO SCIENCE.

          ” although he does seem to match you in NON thinking ability. You and Vigilant sound much more alike.”

          NON THINKING? THE ONLY THOUGHTS YOU USE IN YOUR POSTS ARE DENIGRATION AND RIDICULE. YOUR POSTS ARE PUTRID ROTTING GARBAGE THAT YOU WANT TO GET OUT OF YOUR BODY BEFORE IT EATS IT ALIVE.

          “Frank is quite delusional/demented this AM. ”

          AD HOMINEM ATTACK, STRICTLY PERSONAL OPINION AND ALSO INCORRECT.

          “He says, “Heck, I can even explain where your science research god of “THE REPUBLICAN BRAIN” made his big mistakes” ”

          THIS IS YOUR SUPPORTING FACT FOR THE PRIOR AD HOMINEM ATTACK? DO YOU NEED ME TO PROVIDE YOU WITH A PERSONAL DICTIONARY SO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS YOU MISUSE?

          “Remember folks, that’s the book Frank refuses to read because he can tell from the title that it’s “biased” LOL.”

          YOUR REPETITIONS IS GETTING STALE AND BORING. I CAN TELL BY THE TITLE THAT IT IS BIASED. THE FACT THAT YOU COULD NOT EVEN DETECT THE BIAS AFTER READING THE BOOK IS WHAT IS DELUSIONAL.

          “OK, FRANK, ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP—EXPLAIN WHERE MOONEY MADE HIS BIG MISTAKES.”

          THE LACK OF PROPER CONTROL SYSTEMS WAS EMPLOYED. A GROUP OF TRIGGERS WERE USED TO DETERMINE EMOTIONAL RESPONSE OVER RATIONAL OR OBJECTIVE DECISIONS. A SINGLE SET OF TRIGGER WORDS / PICTURES, THAT IS BIASED AGAINST CONSERVATIVES WILL SKEW THE RESULTS IN FAVOR OF THE “JOURNALISTS” / RESEARCHERS OPINION. MOONEY IS EXTREMELY BIASED AGAINST CONSERVATIVES. I JUST WATCHED AN INTERVIEW WITH THREE PEOPLE, INCLUDING HIM, THAT WAS DISCUSSING PSYCHOLOGY AS REFERENCED IN MOONEY’S BOOKS YOU HAVE CITED. THE OTHER TWO EXPERTS WERE RATIONAL AND UNBIASED. THEY SAID THAT SCIENCE DENIAL IS NEITHER LEFT OR RIGHT WING BASED, IT IS THE FAR RIGHT / LEFT EXTREMISTS THAT ARE GUILTY. HOWEVER, WHEN MOONEY JUMPS IN, IT IS ALL RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVES THAT DENY SCIENCE. I KNOW, YOU WILL SAY HE BELIEVES THAT BECAUSE OF THE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, BUT I SAY IT IS HIS BIAS THAT MAKES HIM SEEK RESEARCH TO CONFIRM HIS OPINION (CONFIRMATION BIAS).

          “Frank gets carried away some more when he says. “In fact, I can point out every mistake you make in your assertions about any scientific facts”.”

          YOU ARE RIGHT, I GOT CARRIED AWAY, IT WOULD BE TOO TIME CONSUMING TO LIST EVERY SINGLE ERROR YOU HAVE MADE HERE.

          “OK, FRANK, yet ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP—POINT OUT EVERY MISTAKE I HAVE MADE IN ASSERTING “SCIENTIFIC” FACTS.”

          FIRST, I MUST PREFACE THIS WITH A DISCLAIMER. YOU HAVE NOT ASSERTED FACTS, YOU HAVE ASSERTED AN OPINION ON OPINIONS. YOU SITE BOOKS AND WEB SITES AS SCIENTIFIC AUTHORITY, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY AGREE WITH YOUR OPINIONS. THERE IS NO AGW, GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT CAUSED BY MAN, IT IS SLIGHTLY ENHANCED BY MAN BUT NOT CAUSED. YOU SITE A PAGE THAT IS TOTALLY BIASED TOWARDS AGW AS THE AUTHORITY ON THE SUBJECT, EVEN THOUGH THE POSTINGS ARE EITHER MERE OPINIONS OR CONTAIN ENOUGH NUMERICAL DATA THAT YOU WOULD BE INCAPABLE OF COMPREHENDING IT. YOU SITE A BOOK, WRITTEN BY A RADICAL LEFT WING BIASED JOURNALIST, AS THE AUTHORITY ON HOW REPUBLICANS ARE INCAPABLE OF REASON. YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN PUT EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH YOU IN A BOX LABELED RIGHT WING DELUSIONAL. YOU REPEATEDLY LABEL O. MANUEL’S RESEARCH IN PHYSICS AS WORTHLESS. YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT CONTRADICT YOUR OPINIONS. IN GENERAL, EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT SCIENCE AND OR SCIENTIFIC CONCLUSIONS IS INACCURATE.

          “I just hope I can get a chance to ask that idiot who claims “we can send a space ship out of this universe”, what universe will our space ship travel to?”
          Uh Frank, aren’t YOU the one who said that?”

          YOU ARE EITHER TRYING TO CLAIM I AM USING MORE THAN ONE NAME HERE OR YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. CONSIDERING YOUR TOTAL LACK OF SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OR REASONING, I MIGHT BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAY SOMETHING THAT STUPID BUT US INTELLIGENT PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE WORD UNIVERSE MEANS EVERYTHING. UNLESS, OF COURSE, YOU SUBSCRIBE TO THE MULTIPLE ALTERNATE UNIVERSE THEORIES.

          “And Frank finishes with another “non-thought experiment” Demonstrate your “simple knowledge of math and its properties”, Frank, by explaining to us why one of the three alternatives is incorrect..”

          I WILL NOT ENABLE YOUR DELUSIONS BY GIVING THE CORRECT ANSWER. IN FACT, YOUR STATEMENT INDICATES THAT YOU DON’T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THE THOUGHT EXERCISE.

          I NOTE THAT YOU FAILED TO ADDRESS THE QUESTION. PROBABLY BECAUSE YOU ARE NO BETTER IN MATH THAN YOU ARE IN SCIENCE.

          “Score is now 280 RBT, 3 Frank. Whack-a-Mole is such fun.”

          AS I HAVE MENTIONED BEFORE, THERE IS NO SCORE. IF THERE WAS IT WOULD BE RBT = 0, FRANK = NUMBER OF POSTS MADE BY RBT. AND, WHERE I LIVE, WE TAKE MOLES SERIOUSLY AND USUALLY SHOOT TO KILL INSTEAD OF JUST KNOCKING THEM BACK INTO THEIR HOLES. YOU SEE, THE PROBLEM WITH MOLES IS LIKE THE PROBLEM WITH YOU, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU FAIL TO RESPOND WITH INTELLIGENCE, AND WE ALL DESTROY YOUR OPINIONS, YOU WILL KEEP PUTTING YOUR UGLY NONSENSICAL RHETORIC INTO THE ARENA.

          JUST IN CASE YOU ARE NOT TOO SENILE TO UNDERSTAND, A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT IS DESIGNED TO ILLICIT A REASONED RESPONSE. THAT MEANS THAT YOU MUST ATTEMPT TO THINK IT THROUGH AND PROVIDE AN EDUCATED GUESS AS TO THE SOLUTION. TO RIDICULE THE IDEA OF A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT SIMPLY INDICATES A LACK OF COGNITIVE OR REASONING ABILITY.

      • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

        Left Brainless stinker is foaming like a rabid dog! Sorry Libtard I’m Mexican you gringo puke I don’t need to show my ID that has my Mexican sur name! I proved Libtards like you are racists attacking Minorities who defy Libtards! Hears a link it would fit left brainless stinker to a T, attacking minorities http://news.yahoo.com/mcconnell-takes-group-criticizing-wife-020757436–election.html Good Job Frank Kahn! Well done Amigo! You just set off LBS epileptic seizures, He is ranting pure nonsense!
        LBS pure rubbish quote- I put him down because it is my opinion that he is NOT a Mexican but someone who is trying to make Mexicans look bad. Since he is not a Mexican, he has no right to be voicing opinions about how Mexicans feel.
        Really?? Libtards like you wants to silence opposition like in your commie handbook, Look Libtard I will post what I feel, So go back to your radical Libtard hate site! You are really losing grip with reality, Seek help!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        I will again say that Frank Kahn is quite delusional/demented today. So much so that there really is little in the way of appropriate reply to be made, but since Frank demands it, I must say something.. Frank says,

        ”YOUR POSTS ARE PUTRID ROTTING GARBAGE THAT YOU WANT TO GET OUT OF YOUR BODY BEFORE IT EATS IT ALIVE”.
        Lord love a duck, Frank! Why doesn’t your family drag you away from the computer and get you some help?

        “OK, FRANK, ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP—EXPLAIN WHERE MOONEY MADE HIS BIG MISTAKES.” That was the challenge to Frank.
        So, Frank watches a discussion and proceeds to hear only what he wants to hear—-so typical of Frank’s confirmation bias. Did he not hear me say that Mooney DOES accept that there are some loonies on the left? Did he not hear Mooney himself say that they are far outnumbered by the loonies on the right? Mooney, as all thinking and honest folk do, looks at facts and forms opinions that are supported by those facts—-Frank doesn’t even know what the words “fact” and “opinion” mean (And DON’T go looking up definitions for us and posting them, Frank—-even AFTER you do that, you STILL won’t know what they mean because you DON’T WANT TO KNOW).

        “Frank gets carried away some more when he says. “In fact, I can point out every mistake you make in your assertions about any scientific facts”., and I challenged Frank to do just that. His response—WAFFLE, WAFFLE, WAFFLE, as in:
        “YOU ARE RIGHT, I GOT CARRIED AWAY, IT WOULD BE TOO TIME CONSUMING TO LIST EVERY SINGLE ERROR YOU HAVE MADE HERE”.

        “OK, FRANK, I’LL GIVE YOU YET ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP—POINT OUT ONLY A FEW MISTAKES I HAVE MADE IN ASSERTING “SCIENTIFIC” FACTS.”, AND STOP SQUIRMING AROUND WITH “DISCLAIMERS”. How about just TWO?

        I said to Frank, “Demonstrate your “simple knowledge of math and its properties”, Frank, by explaining to us why one of the three alternatives is incorrect”..
        Uh, Frank, I demonstrated that I know two of the three responses are correct in your thought exercise. I have just scored another point on you. You are evading the issue of explaining why the one is incorrect because YOU apparently don’t know the (very) simple algebra needed to explain it to us.

        Score is now 286 RBT to 3 for Frank. Whack-a-Mole is such fun, although playing it with Frank is getting very tedious. Where are APN and Vigilant? I need new moles to whack. (And I AM starting to feel bad about beating up on Frank so badly—-it is no great thing when one wins a battle of wits when the opponent is only half-armed)

        • Frank Kahn

          STILL USING LIES AND MISDIRECTION? I HAVE DEFINITELY CAUGHT YOU THIS TIME.

          YOU SAID

          ““Frank gets carried away some more when he says. “In fact, I can point out every mistake you make in your assertions about any scientific facts”., and I challenged Frank to do just that. His response—WAFFLE, WAFFLE, WAFFLE, as in:
          “YOU ARE RIGHT, I GOT CARRIED AWAY, IT WOULD BE TOO TIME CONSUMING TO LIST EVERY SINGLE ERROR YOU HAVE MADE HERE”.”

          AS PER USUAL, YOU COPY AND PASTE PORTIONS OF MY RESPONSE TO MAKE YOU LOOK GOOD. I DID GO ON TO SAY WHAT MISTAKES YOU HAVE MADE, AT LEAST IN PART.

          “OK, FRANK, I’LL GIVE YOU YET ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP—POINT OUT ONLY A FEW MISTAKES I HAVE MADE IN ASSERTING “SCIENTIFIC” FACTS.”, AND STOP SQUIRMING AROUND WITH “DISCLAIMERS”. How about just TWO?”

          I LISTED MORE THAN JUST TWO MISTAKES YOU MADE, SO GO BACK AND READ MY PREVIOUS POST

          “I said to Frank, “Demonstrate your “simple knowledge of math and its properties”, Frank, by explaining to us why one of the three alternatives is incorrect”..”

          THIS IS JUST YOU QUOTING YOU SO, NO COMMENT REQUIRED.

          “Uh, Frank, I demonstrated that I know two of the three responses are correct in your thought exercise. I have just scored another point on you. You are evading the issue of explaining why the one is incorrect because YOU apparently don’t know the (very) simple algebra needed to explain it to us.”

          NOW YOU SEE, RBT, YOU DID NOT PROVE ANYTHING. IN SCIENCE AND MATH YOU CANNOT SAY “HEY ONE OF THE ANSWERS IS WRONG” AND CALL IT PROOF THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. BUT, SINCE YOU CLARIFIED YOUR CHALLENGE TO ME TO BE AN ANSWER TO THE THOUGHT EXPERIMENT, I CAN FINALLY SAY YOU ARE WRONG. HERE IS THE GENERAL ALGEBRAIC PRINCIPLE THAT WAS APPLIED.

          A = B * C SO
          A / B = C OR
          A / C = B OR
          B = C / A OR
          C = B / A

          I REALIZE I ONLY USED 3 OF THE 4 POSSIBILITIES IN THE THOUGH EXPERIMENT BUT ALL THREE WERE CORRECT NOT JUST TWO.

          “Score is now 286 RBT to 3 for Frank. Whack-a-Mole is such fun, although playing it with Frank is getting very tedious. ”

          SINCE YOUR ANSWER TO THE THOUGHT EXERCISE WAS WRONG YOU NEED TO CHANGE THE SCORE.

          “Where are APN and Vigilant? I need new moles to whack. (And I AM starting to feel bad about beating up on Frank so badly—-it is no great thing when one wins a battle of wits when the opponent is only half-armed)”

          ACTUALLY, I AM THE ONE WHO IS ENGAGED IN A BATTLE OF WITS WITH AN UNARMED MAN.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        MexicanPuke says,

        “Look Libtard I will post what I feel”, and I respond to that “Go right ahead”

        Just don’t expect any of us to believe that you are really a Mexican speaking for Mexicans. Maybe many Mexicans really are anal orifices like you, but many of my neighbors would be most upset if you tried to speak for them. They’re mostly from El Salvador, but some come from Guatemala and other Latin American countries—-none of them sound like you.

      • Vigilant

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:26 pm

        “Where are APN and Vigilant? I need new moles to whack.”

        I posted at 11:47 AM and you have yet to respond. Got your threads mixed up, sonny?

      • Vigilant

        BTW, Frank, you are right. The mathematical question you posed is elementary algebra. If RBT can’t answer that simple question, then we both know, and now the world knows, how pitifully insufficient are his math skills.

        Maybe that’s why he still hasn’t answered my post of 11:47 AM. He probably had to rush out to get a 9th grade algebra textbook.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant says, “I posted at 11:47 AM and you have yet to respond. Got your threads mixed up, sonny?” Actually, no—-I responded to that at 3:00 or so—-running your mouth again without thinking, sonny?

        Just like the “elementary algebra”? Nice try, your attempt to turn it back to me—-I’ll bet you can’t explain either why my answer was correct.

        • Frank Kahn

          HOW COULD HE EXPLAIN HOW YOUR ANSWER WAS CORRECT, WHEN IT WAS WRONG? ALL THREE OPTIONS WERE CORRECT.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank Kahn says: “I DID GO ON TO SAY WHAT MISTAKES YOU HAVE MADE, AT LEAST IN PART——I LISTED MORE THAN JUST TWO MISTAKES YOU MADE, SO GO BACK AND READ MY PREVIOUS POST”

        No you didn’t, Frank—-just do it or shut up. I’ve gone back and looked and you simply didn’t do it. Spell it out EXACTLY—what I said and why it was wrong—-do it or shut up..

        “I said to Frank, “Demonstrate your “simple knowledge of math and its properties”, Frank, by explaining to us why one of the three alternatives is incorrect”..”You are evading the issue of explaining why the one is incorrect because YOU apparently don’t know the (very) simple algebra needed to explain it to us”

        I don’t quite understand what Frank is trying to say here, but I’m sure Frank doesn’t either, since he has ONCE AGAIN shot himself in the foot with all of it. “NOW YOU SEE, RBT, YOU DID NOT PROVE ANYTHING. IN SCIENCE AND MATH YOU CANNOT SAY “HEY ONE OF THE ANSWERS IS WRONG” AND CALL IT PROOF THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. BUT, SINCE YOU CLARIFIED YOUR CHALLENGE TO ME TO BE AN ANSWER TO THE THOUGHT EXPERIMENT, I CAN FINALLY SAY YOU ARE WRONG. HERE IS THE GENERAL ALGEBRAIC PRINCIPLE THAT WAS APPLIED.

        Frank then says
        A = B * C SO
        A / B = C OR
        A / C = B OR
        B = C / A OR
        C = B / A

        I REALIZE I ONLY USED 3 OF THE 4 POSSIBILITIES IN THE THOUGH EXPERIMENT BUT ALL THREE WERE CORRECT NOT JUST TWO.

        Listen carefully, Frank—-it’s an EQUATION (EEE–KWAY–SHUN). What’s on the right side of (=) has to equal what’s on the left side of the (=). When you do “simple algebra” with an eee-kway-shun of three terms you can isolate one term on one side and express its value in terms of the other two. There are ONLY three possible ways to write that. And now you shift into using A-B-C and no “squared” to “simplify” things? YOU HAVE SCREWED IT UP EVEN WORSE NOW. Her’s the mathematical “truth”:

        If A = B x C,
        A / B = C is correct
        A / C = B is correct

        B = C / A is a mathematical impossibility in this equation

        And best of all, Frank has just shown us that C = B / A and C = A / B, except that’s another mathematical impossibility. LORD LOVE A DUCK, FRANK! Are you that demented or deluded? This is MATH, Frank, and you can’t make up your own, no more than you make up your own English..

        And, SINCE MY ANSWERS TO THE THOUGHT EXERCISE ARE CORRECT AND FRANK WAS AGAIN WRONG, I DO NEED TO CHANGE THE SCORE. Score is now 290 RBT to 3 for Frank. Whack-a-Mole is such fun.

        • Frank Kahn

          YOUR ARE CORRECT, YOU ARE NOT IGNORANT YOU ARE JUST PLAIN STUPID.

          “A = B * C SO
          A / B = C OR
          A / C = B OR
          B = A / C OR
          C = A / B

          I REALIZE I ONLY USED 3 OF THE 4 POSSIBILITIES IN THE THOUGH EXPERIMENT BUT ALL THREE WERE CORRECT NOT JUST TWO.

          “Listen carefully, Frank—-it’s an EQUATION (EEE–KWAY–SHUN). What’s on the right side of (=) has to equal what’s on the left side of the (=). When you do “simple algebra” with an eee-kway-shun of three terms you can isolate one term on one side and express its value in terms of the other two. There are ONLY three possible ways to write that. And now you shift into using A-B-C and no “squared” to “simplify” things? YOU HAVE SCREWED IT UP EVEN WORSE NOW. Her’s the mathematical “truth”:”

          NOW IDIOT YOU LISTEN, I HAVE GREAT ABILITY IN MATH, I AM NOT STUPID LIKE YOU. I TESTED MY MEMORY FOR SUCH EQUATIONS BEFORE GIVING YOU THE ANSWER.

          WE WILL SUBSTITUTE NUMBERS FOR THE LETTERS SINCE YOU CAN’T FATHOM ALGEBRA.

          A = 12
          B = 3
          C = 4
          ARE YOU WITH US SO FAR,
          12 = 3 * 4 SO
          12 / 3 = 4 – A / B = C
          12 / 4 = 3 – A / C = B
          3 = 12 / 4 – B = A / C
          4 = 12 / 3 – C = A / B

          REMOVING THE SQUARED WAS SIMPLY TO KEEP FROM HAVING TO TYPE SQUARED EACH TIME, THE MOVING OF TERMS IS DONE THE SAME WAY FOR POWERS OF NUMBERS UNLESS YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO REDUCE THE EQUATION IN SOME WAY. USUALLY DONE IN FACTORING OF POLYNOMIALS.

          ” LORD LOVE A DUCK, FRANK! Are you that demented or deluded? This is MATH, Frank, and you can’t make up your own, no more than you make up your own English..”

          DON’T HAVE TO MAKEUP MATH, AND MY ENGLISH IS NORMAL ENGLISH USAGE, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO USES WORDS INCORRECTLY. THERE ARE FOUR CORRECT SOLUTIONS ACTUALLY FIVE IF YOU WANT TO SWAP SIDES OF THE ENTIRE EQUATION. MAYBE YOU WANT TO POINT OUT SOME TYPO’S I MIGHT HAVE MADE? OOPS JUST REMEMBERED A POSSIBLE 6TH WAY OF WRITING IT. A / B / C = 1.

          I DID GIVE YOU SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF WHERE YOU WERE WRONG IN YOUR ASSERTIONS OF SCIENTIFIC FACTS. I DON’T FEEL LIKE GOING BACK (SINCE LIKE AN IDIOT YOU REFUSE TO RESPOND TO MY POSTS, MAKING IT EASY TO DO) AND COUNTING THE EXACT NUMBER. I CAN FIRMLY RECALL A MINIMUM OF 5 EXAMPLES.

      • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

        LBS is having a major meltdown! your racist quote – Maybe many Mexicans really are anal orifices like you, but many of my neighbors would be most upset if you tried to speak for them. They’re mostly from El Salvador, but some come from Guatemala and other Latin American countries—-none of them sound like you.
        Nice racist comment White Devil! calling Mexicans anal orifices , Keep up your Racist comments The Link I posted really exposed you how racist Libtards are like you! Yea your neighbors from El Salvador, but some come from Guatemala and other Latin American countries will be glad I told them the truth about you and the poison of Libtards way! They really be Upset a racist white Libtard living next to them! Seek Help Sicko!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Not a Mexican Puke says:

        LBS (whoever that is?) is having a major meltdown!????

        Nothing racist at all about “Maybe many Mexicans really are anal orifices like you, but many of my neighbors would be most upset if you tried to speak for them. They’re mostly from El Salvador, but some come from Guatemala and other Latin American countries—-none of them sound like you”.

        I wasn’t calling Mexicans anal orifices, I was calling YOU one—-I apologize for the crudity, but I have run out of polite ways to describe you. Keep on trying to convince us that you are really a Mexican and I will keep on reminding everyone that you are really someone who is trying to make Mexicans look bad.

        And my Hispanic neighbors are good solid hard-working family people who can afford to live in my neighborhood. They are good neighbors who take care of their homes and get along with the rest of us. I don’t know or care if any of them are illegal. I DO know that they would be aghast if you moved in and ran your mouth the way you have on PLD.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank lives up to the title of King of the Willfully Ignorant And Functionally Illiterate as he continues to show his ignorance of algebra and even simple arithmetic

        Listen carefully yet AGAIN, Frank—-it’s an Algebraic EQUATION. What’s on the right side of (=) has to equal what’s on the left side of the (=). When you do “simple algebra” with an equation of three terms you can isolate one term on one side and express its value in terms of the other two on the other side. There are ONLY three possible ways to write that with this equation you used, not four, not five, and there are no “typos” allowed.

        This is the Algebra

        If A = B x C,
        then C = A / B is correct
        and B = A / C is correct

        B = C / A is a mathematical impossibility in this equation, as is C = B / A
        YOU CAN’T JUST PUT THINGS WHERE YOU WANT TO!

        And he comes back to argue the same impossibility of more than 3 possibilities with

        A = B * C SO
        A / B = C OR
        A / C = B OR
        B = A / C OR
        C = A / B

        Doesn’t Frank realize that there are ONLY three possibilities?
        That A / B = C and C = A / B are the EXACT same algebraic statement?
        That A / C = B and B = A / C are also the EXACT same algebraic statement?
        ONLY THREE, FRANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        I guess not because here he is again, saying, “THERE ARE FOUR CORRECT SOLUTIONS ACTUALLY FIVE IF YOU WANT TO SWAP SIDES OF THE ENTIRE EQUATION. OOPS JUST REMEMBERED A POSSIBLE 6TH WAY OF WRITING IT.
        A / B / C =1

        Lord love a duck, Frank—-the arithmetic must follow the algebra!!!!!!
        A = 12
        B = 3
        C = 4
        So, B = C / A (3 = 4/12) , and C = B / A (4 = 3/12) and THEY”RE WRONG!
        And A / B / C =1 is true but IT’S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT EQUATION THAN
        A = B x C and has many solutions—-you can’t just say they’re in any way related because they both have A’s, B’s, and C’s

        I said, “LORD LOVE A DUCK, FRANK! Are you that demented or deluded? This is MATH, Frank, and you can’t make up your own, no more than you make up your own English”. Unfortunately it seems that Frank CAN make up his own math,just as he made up his own subject-verb agreement English with “attacks-is, attack-are”

        Frank once again fails to step up when challenged and says “I DON’T FEEL LIKE GOING BACK—–I CAN FIRMLY RECALL A MINIMUM OF 5 EXAMPLES”. OK, Frank, how about telling us about TWO, or just ONE? Put up or shut up—-if you can’t do it, you have actually proven that I have NEVER made a misstatement of scientific fact—-I’ll settle for that.

        PS Frank Have you noticed that your buddy Vigilant is no longer complimenting you on your math skills? Perhaps because even he too sees that you have none? It’s getting pretty bad when even your best friends won’t tell you you have math BO.

        Score is now 296 RBT to 3 Frank.

        • Frank Kahn

          I see, typos are not allowed? then all the mistakes you make in spelling and grammar are because you are too ignorant to know the correct way?

          The original equations contained typo’s where the C AND A were transposed and the same with the B AND A. Even though A / C = B is the same result as B = A / C they are two different ways to write the same equation. You can also write the equation as B / (A / C) = 1. Do you want a demonstration of factoring too?

          there are 5 ways to show the same equation in algebra using three unknowns. Your decision to demand that the world works your way is stupid and childish. The sixth solution is a truism, for any given number A, A / A = 1. Since the two sides of the equation are equal, if you divide the left side by the right side you end up with 1.

          Your grammar skills are as deficient as your mathematical and theological skills. My statement about the subject phrase is correct, and your intentionally leaving out the modifier of the verb is forcing a difference between singular and plural identity.

          I will not repeat myself for your stupid enjoyment, the specific errors in your assertions and logic were spelled out for you. The fact that you ignore them is evidence of your lack of ability to support them.

          I would also be more than happy to show you scientific evidence of your extreme mistakes in regards to evolution. First off, it is not a scientifically PROVEN FACT, it is called the THEORY OF EVOLUTION for a reason. It is similar to the BIG BANG THEORY, it is generally accepted by many if not most, but it has not been proven. Intelligent Design is also a THEORY, it is backed by two sciences, statistical probability and mathematics. Your decision to accept one form of science and promote a THEORY as FACT does not make it more valid than others. In so much as the fact that mutations do occur, (call them evolving) it is proof that evolution does exist in some form even today. To state that the existence of modern mutations, is proof that the universe was not CREATED by an INTELLIGENT ENTITY is false. It is no more valid than to say that nothing evolves because it was all created in the beginning.

      • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

        Still Having a epileptic seizures LBS! your BS quote- I wasn’t calling Mexicans anal orifices, I still proved Libtards like you are racist when a minority gets out of line who is not with a Libtard program! Your attack on minorites quote-{ Maybe many Mexicans really are anal orifices like you,} Nice Try! Gringo! You lose! your another silly quote- I DO know that they would be aghast if you moved in and ran your mouth the way you have on PLD. Sorry Punk Most of us Latinos do stick together! They would smack you around few times when you run your motor racist mouth of yours! I noticed a Obama bots like you calling conservatives & Libertarians Birthers, More of your Comedy quote- {Keep on trying to convince us that you are really a Mexican and I will keep on reminding everyone that you are really someone who is trying to make Mexicans look bad.} So blanco Devil it makes you a Birther HA, HA, HA! You silly Libtards now wanting me to prove I’m Mexican! Keep Dreaming and I will keep Reminding everyone, Libtards like you are Racist, since you make whites look really bad! Again Libtard Seek Help! Frank Khan has done a good job rattling your cage, When you ran your big mouth at PLD!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank Kahn continues to insist that up is down, right is left, in is out, and over is under. He is delusional to the point that he cannot examine all the logic fails and errors of fact (mathematical) that i have pointed out to him and accept responsibility for them.

        I refuse to waste any more time on teaching him his ABC’s, nor will I respond to his continued use of ad hominems in place of argument. .I’m sure he will make more misstatements of fact on future threads, and I will be glad to set him straight when he does.

        Blather on, Frank—-now NO ONE will be listening.

        (Final score for this round 297 RBT, 3 Frank)

        • Frank Kahn

          Not true, I seem to recall a recent response to your attempt at claiming I am the same person as Vigilant. Did he tell you that I am not Vigilant? Does that make your score less by at least one point?

          Cry and whine all you want, I will continue to correct your misinformation about whatever subject you pretend to be an expert in.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Blather on, Frank. You are, as usual, deluded and wrong, but no one is listening, so it doesn’t matter. The score stands as is—-I won’t charge you for the stupidities in this comment

        • Frank Kahn

          What comment was that? You might be talking about any comment made by anyone named frank. You certainly are not talking about me because you used the word stupid (stupidity). There is no score you moron, keep thinking there is, it does you no good and nobody believes you.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        “What comment was that?”, asks Frank. Frank has been coming to PLD all this time to entertain us and he STILL hasn’t figured out the “reply” and time-date stamp that appears on every comment? Duh!

        How about the comment you made on March 5, 2013 at 9:24 pm, Frank? Since my comment was made 5 minutes later on March 5, 2013 at 9:29 pm, one might logically conclude that’s the one I was referring to—-the one right above it in the thread? That you made 5 minutes earlier? Duh!

        I most certainly was talking about you. My using the word stupid (stupidity) should have been the big clue.
        .
        Blather on, Frank. You are, as usual, deluded and wrong, but no one is listening, so it doesn’t matter. The score stands as is—-I won’t charge you for the stupidities in this new comment that “Frank Kahn stupidly made on March 5, 2013 at 9:38 pm” (is that clear enough?)

        • Frank Kahn

          The fact that you constantly reply to Vigilant’s, or some other posters, posts and not mine, coupled with the method that replies are processed and displayed during reply, it is not possible for me to determine, while responding, what post you are referring to. DUH, maybe your computer has a special HALF BRAIN THINKER function that automatically shows the post you are responding to,instead of the one you reply to, but mine does not. When I post this response, it should appear beneath the post, by nc, to which you wrote your reply.

          As to stupidity, that is an ad hominem attack and a gross misinterpretation of fact due to your personal confirmation bias.

          THERE IS NO DAMN SCORE, AND YOU ARE ALWAYS WRONG. YOU ALWAYS FAIL TO RESPOND TO ANY FACTUAL INPUT FROM ME, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT REFUTE THE TRUTH.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Say Goodnight, Frank

        (I hope you did your Algebra homework tonight and now finally understand that there are only 3 ways to “arrange” A = B x C, NOT 4, 5, or 6)

  • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

    Dear, Wood Chip, as a claimed “constitutionalist” can you tell me what
    happened to the “common law and equity courts”?

    If you don’t KNOW, maybe you could ask Ron Paul or JUDGE Napolitano?

    Why do Federal Reserve Notes printed in 1955, say that they are “redeemable
    in lawful money at any Federal Reserve Bank”, yet Notes after this date are
    only “legal tender”?

    Is “constitutionalist” a synonym for comatose?

    “He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past,
    controls the future.”

    Anybody know what business the HANCOCK family was in?

    Anybody know WHY there was a revolution in 1776?

    Anybody know WHY those two questions are related?

  • rendarsmith

    How many union workers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    One to actually change the bulb, a supervisor to supervise it, one to take it out of the box, another to carry the box, under supervision, a shop stewart to complain to management about the weight of the bulb, a business agent to negotiate a high contract for changing light bulbs, and finally an inspector to insure it was done properly so 6 or 7 depending if the supervisor can multi-task.

  • FreedomFighter

    The once great unions are now nothing but communist run political arms of the communist/socialist/fascist cabal called the democrat party. The union’s desire for illegal alien citizen ship and then Union membership is about money, about power, about control at the voting booth – to facilitate the takeover of the USA giving Obummer is fundamental change.

    The unions could care less about illegal’s becoming citizens, they want money and votes for the statist scumbags that want to overthrow America. The illegal’s, alien illegal, illegal aliens or “undocumented aliens” (another politically correct term used to obfuscate an issue) are just a tool, a means to an end.

    Sure make them citizens but don’t give them the vote for 25 years, see how fast the democrats drop the issue, illegal aliens will instantly become a non-issue.

    Laus Deo
    Semper FI

  • Randy G

    WHEN will people learn, Illegals ARE invaders and thieves. it is time for the ants to fight back against the grasshoppers( IF anyone remembers that old story)

    • TheTruthHurts

      Very interesting point… “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” clearly identify America, in cases throughout the world, as the illegal invader stealing natural resources…

      • Average Joe

        Exellent book! Bob Livingston recommended it a while back …exellent read and an eye opener. Highly recommended!

        AJ

      • Average Joe

        BTW, Mr. Perkins has a follow up to “Diary” called “Hoodwinked”, also on the same subject matter (if you haven’t readyet).

        AJ

  • Right Brain Thinker

    Chip tries to make a connection between unions, immigrants, and voting. More fear-mongering and boogeyman stuff. It has succeeded in bringing out the mindless, since four of the five comments posted so far are just that—mindless parroting of the same old horsepucky..

    Let’s see, it is OK for the plutocracy and the corporate oligarchy to wage a 30 year fight against the unions and knock their membership down to less than 25% of what it was?. It is OK for the right wing to prey on the fears of the mindless with the “they’ll take your jobs” straw man?. It is OK for the incomes of the 99% to have fallen by 2% while the greedy rich of the !% have seen theirs go UP by nearly 6%?.

    “Worried business owners don’t invest, expand and create jobs. They hunker down and try to survive.” That’s the biggest piece of horsepucky in the article. The “business owners” are doing exactly what the Repugs in congress are doing—-holding the country hostage as they squeeze the middle class. Profits and dividends are at record highs, the rich get richer, the share of wealth going to the 99% declines, and the country at large suffers. I am hoping that we will one day hear a “47%” type tape from some speaker at a Chamber of Commerce banquet that says “Keep holding back, we’ve got them on the ropes, don’t worry about destroying the country, if we can get O’Bama, it will be worth it”.

    • momo

      Right Brain Thinker says:” I am hoping that we will one day hear a “47%” type tape from some speaker at a Chamber of Commerce banquet that says “Keep holding back, we’ve got them on the ropes, don’t worry about destroying the country, if we can get O’Bama, it will be worth it”.

      Too funny…their secret is Obama is with them, not against them.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Unfortunately too true, but he is less “with them” than the Repugnants.

    • Vigilant

      “According to the theory of left-brain or right-brain dominance, each side of the brain controls different types of thinking. Additionally, people are said to prefer one type of thinking over the other. For example, a person who is “left-brained” is often said to be more logical, analytical and objective, while a person who is “right-brained” is said to be more intuitive, thoughtful and subjective.”

      http://psychology.about.com/od/cognitivepsychology/a/left-brain-right-brain.htm

      Indeed. RBT has claimed just the opposite. Notwothstanding the fact that right-left brain theories have been debunked for some time now, RBT certainly proves that he is bereft of abilities in logic and objective analysis..

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant may actually BE Frank Kahn under a different handle. Vig has looked something up on a “pop” site and quotes it to us as TRUTH. Like Frank, Vig doesn’t really understand what he is talking about, but his need to attack me outweighs all else (that “umbrage” thing).

        Vig, you need to read The Republican Brain and google around on more scientific sites to gain the understanding you will need to speak with authority on “brains”. I have addressed this topic several times with others among the mindless and have already said that the left-right thing is out of date, that we should be talking about anterior singulate cortex and amygdala activity.

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Right Brain Thinker,

          You write: “Vigilant may actually BE Frank Kahn under a different handle.” Vigilant and Frank Kahn are not the same person and Vigilant has commented only as Vigilant for almost three years.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Average Joe

        Vigilant,

        RBT immediately proves your point….

        The RBT motto:

        I don’t believe it. Prove it to me and I still won’t believe it.
        Douglas Adams

        AJ

      • Vigilant

        RBT says, “Vigilant may actually BE Frank Kahn under a different handle.”

        I submit that statement to Bob Livingston for debunking. Maybe YOU have used multiple screen names in the past, but I have never used but “Vigilant” for my moniker. People tend to project their own deviousness onto others. Perhaps that’s what we see here, huh RBT?

        “Vig has looked something up on a “pop” site and quotes it to us as TRUTH. Like Frank, Vig doesn’t really understand what he is talking about, but his need to attack me outweighs all else (that “umbrage” thing).”

        The left-right brain theory, as stated in the article, has been around for many years. I didn’t need to look up anything. I recalled learning the theory in a psychology class at university over 30 years ago. As I said, the theory was debunked, and the article I cited which RBT didn’t take the time to read, says precisely that.

        If RBT chooses to use a screen name referring to a concept even HE admits to being outdated, then I wonder what kind of psyche that describes. Unless and until he changes his screen name, we will continue to attribute to him the lack of cognitive proficiency he so desperately seeks to assert.

        • Frank Kahn

          You have to understand that RBT does not care about facts and sources. I remember you stating that it was debunked in your original post.

          Maybe we should not be too quick to judge him/her, he/she might have had a hemispherectomy, and the right side of his brain is all that is left? Of course, even that should leave him/her with the capacity to reason with rational thought and logic.

          I find it amusing that he tries to say I use multiple names also. I use my real name, and have no reason to hide when giving my thoughts and opinions here.

      • Vigilant

        “RBT says, “Vig, you need to read The Republican Brain and google around on more scientific sites to gain the understanding you will need to speak with authority on ‘brains’.”

        Now why would I waste my time on an obviously biased work of fiction with a title that presupposes its conclusion? You may choose to promulgate this kind of trash, so typical of leftist thinking, but I won’t.

        Chris Mooney, the author of this trash, discloses his own biases on his website. For example:

        “A few nights back I was on the Agenda With Steve Paikin, alongside Michael Shermer and Mark Lynas, discussing the “anti-science left.”

        “My view is that while there are anti-science views on the left wing, they’re swamped by what’s on the right, and that’s really the nature of things–liberals and scientists are allies (and conservatives and scientists are opposed) due to their psychology.

        “So I didn’t agree with the centrist, pox-on-both-houses framing of the show (and the opinion of Michael Shermer, who argues this). Still, it was a good, meaty discussion.”

        Objectivity thy name is NOT Chris Mooney. The “liberals and scientists are allies” statement proves it.

        ANYONE, right or left, who seeks to politicize a matter of ongoing scientific investigation such as global warming, is a charlatan of the worst sort. Those who would have you believe that global warming is “settled science” are certainly NOT scientists, and “scientists” who staunchly maintain such are no more than poltical zealots. And, let me add, zealots to the point of massaging or discounting statistical data on purpose to yield the results they presuppose.

        I have no doubt that Mooney is one of those who categorically reject “intelligent design” without ever having read the scientific basis for the theory. Yes, scientific basis without any necessity to appeal to spiritual values.. Quantum physics alone has tended toward this theory, as have other scientific disciplines that are roundly pooh-poohed by those fashionable atheists who will brook no contradiction of their religious beliefs.

        Both left and right have framed the evolution-creationism argument to their own taste, instead of very reasonably considering that there need be no conflict in two theories. The proponents of both positions would fain admit that the Bible is a largely symbolic work, using metaphor and symbolism to describe the ineffable, and therefore does not make their positions mutually exclusive.

        Etc., etc., etc. When Mooney says, “So I didn’t agree with the centrist, pox-on-both-houses framing of the show,” he immediately betrays his own biases. He has, in effect, said, “I’ve already made up my mind and I’m unreceptive to learning something that might contradict my prejudiced opinions.”

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant asks, “Perhaps that’s what we see here, huh RBT?” No, Vig, what we see here is someone (you) who suffers from confirmation bias and motivated reasoning and can only accept what he already believes or wants to believe, and therefore blindly runs down the same dead end alleys..

        My comments about right-left brain being outmoded go right over his head as he doggedly insists on pursuing his fractured logic (just like Frank). Does he not see the logic fail in insisting that “recalling” something from a psychology class 30 years ago and a citation to “Psychology for Dummies” does not qualify him to speak with such authority?

        The field of political psychology and political neuroscience is rather recent, and many of the latest discoveries have been discussed in Mooney’s book. And Vig has done another “look up—-of a Mooney interview—-and has cherrypicked out some quotes that Vig THINKS prove his point (just like Frank).

        Vig ends with smugness and condescension in his last paragraph, stating “we will continue to attribute to him the lack of cognitive proficiency he so desperately seeks to assert”.

        Yeah, Vig, “we” is you and Frank, and I “assert” nothing, I DEMONSTRATE it.. Read the freakin’ book, VIG! When you have even a minimal knowledge of what Mooney has said, come back.

        Frank Kahn says nothing much of significance. He once again demonstrates his total cluelessness and lack of a sense of humor by going off on a very earnest tangent about “multiple names”. Lord love a duck, Frank! Can’t you tell when people are making fun of you?

        Vig says, “Now why would I waste my time on an obviously biased work of fiction with a title that presupposes its conclusion? You may choose to promulgate this kind of trash, so typical of leftist thinking, but I won’t” LMAO—-that’s EXACTLY what Frank said about the book (and more than once).

        “obviously BIASED work of FICTION with a title that PRESUPPOSES its conclusion? You may choose to promulgate this kind of trash, so typical of leftist thinking, but I won’t” LMAO—-that’s EXACTLY what Frank said about the book (and more than once). Vig proves my point about his closedmindedness and confirmation bias with this remarkable statement.

        Vig has gone to Mooney’s website and again cherry picked some quotes that VIG THINKS prove some point. Unfortunately, the whole discussion was about the “anti-science left and right”, and only indirectly about “brains”. If you ever get around to reading some REAL books, Vig, I would suggest you read two more by Mooney, one being “The Republican War on Science” and the other being “Storm World: Hurricanes, Politics, and the Battle over Global Warming”. I’ve read all three of those books—–I own copies of Republican Brain and Republican War on Science and would be glad to loan them to you if you live nearby.

        Vig quotes us something that SOUNDS good to him without realizing that he has shot himself in the foot. Mooney said, “My view is that while there are anti-science views on the left wing, they’re swamped by what’s on the right, and that’s really the nature of things–liberals and scientists are allies (and conservatives and scientists are opposed) due to their psychology. So I didn’t agree with the centrist, pox-on-both-houses framing of the show (and the opinion of Michael Shermer, who argues this). Still, it was a good, meaty discussion.”

        Vig proves that HE is the one lacking objectivity. Mooney has closely examined the workings of the “Republican Brain” and the history of the “Republican War on Science”, has written two lengthy books about it, and has objectively stated his conclusion—-”anti-science views on the left wing are swamped by what’s on the right”. His last comment was in reference to the “false equivalency” that the wing-nuts love so much, particularly in the “fair and balanced” media—-have one scientist from each side speak and that means there’s a “debate” or “doubt” or ‘disagreement”. Of course, that fails to recognize that 98% of all climate scientists are on one side (AGW) is occurring), and the remaining 2% (the AGW deniers) have been shown to be on the payrolls of the fossil fuel interests.

        Vig says, “Objectivity thy name is NOT Chris Mooney. The “liberals and scientists are allies” statement proves it”. LOL over the blind certitude displayed in that erroneous statement.

        Vig again makes a purely POLITICAL statement here—no science, just opinion—-just like Frank. “ANYONE, right or left, who seeks to politicize a matter of ongoing scientific investigation such as global warming, is a charlatan of the worst sort. Those who would have you believe that global warming is “settled science” are certainly NOT scientists, and “scientists” who staunchly maintain such are no more than political zealots. And, let me add, zealots to the point of massaging or discounting statistical data on purpose to yield the results they presuppose”.

        And tell us about “massaging or discounting statistical data on purpose to yield the results they presuppose”. I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion—lay out the “facts” for us.

        We are going off into La-La land now, with, “I have no doubt that Mooney is one of those who categorically reject “intelligent design” without ever having read the scientific basis for the theory. Yes, scientific basis without any necessity to appeal to spiritual values.. Quantum physics alone has tended toward this theory, as have other scientific disciplines that are roundly pooh-poohed by those fashionable atheists who will brook no contradiction of their religious beliefs”.

        I can’t recall Mooney ever mentioning “creative design” in the three books of his that I’ve read, but he is a rational human being that accepts science and I’m sure he WOULD reject it if anyone asked him. There is NO argument and no “position”—-creative design is pure belief and religion, evolution is science based, period.

        Actually, Vig, you are describing yourself exactly when you say,“I’ve already made up my mind and I’m unreceptive to learning something that might contradict my prejudiced opinions.” I couldn’t describe you better.

        • Frank Kahn

          More long winded blather that has no basis in reality or truth. Everyone that is opposed to your opinion is RIGHT not deluded.

          You are the one that reads books for dummies. You have no science background nor do you exhibit any scientific knowledge.

          You are a hack and an infantile degenerat.

      • Vigilant

        RBT demonstrates his close mindedness with “And tell us about “massaging or discounting statistical data on purpose to yield the results they presuppose”. I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion—lay out the “facts” for us.”

        The all-seeing RBT apparently had his nose in anti-Republican literature so deeply that he missed one of the biggest news stories of the last few years called “Climategate.”

        Take your own advice and “google around” if your liberal myopia is so debilitating that you missed a story of which virtually everyone else was aware.

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/6636563/University-of-East-Anglia-emails-the-most-contentious-quotes.html

        http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/11/22/climategate-20-more-emails-leaked-from-climate-researchers/

        To be sure, the story was so damning that I don’t believe RBT missed it. I can only quote him in my rejoiner: I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion—lay out the “facts” for us.”

        C’mon, RBT, let’s all see you deny it here.

      • Vigilant

        RBT demonstrates his close mindedness with “And tell us about “massaging or discounting statistical data on purpose to yield the results they presuppose”. I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion—lay out the “facts” for us.”

        The all-seeing RBT apparently had his nose in anti-Republican literature so deeply that he missed one of the biggest news stories of the last few years called “Climategate.”

        Take your own advice and “google around” if your liberal myopia is so debilitating that you missed a story of which virtually everyone else was aware.

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/6636563/University-of-East-Anglia-emails-the-most-contentious-quotes.html

        http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/11/22/climategate-20-more-emails-leaked-from-climate-researchers/

        To be sure, the story was so damning that I don’t believe RBT missed it. I can only quote him in my rejoiner: I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion—lay out the “facts” for us.”

        C’mon, RBT, let’s all see you deny it here.

      • Vigilant

        RBT demonstrates his close mindedness with “And tell us about “massaging or discounting statistical data on purpose to yield the results they presuppose”. I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion—lay out the “facts” for us.”

        The all-seeing RBT apparently had his nose in anti-Republican literature so deeply that he missed one of the biggest news stories of the last few years called “Climategate.”

        Take your own advice and “google around” if your liberal myopia is so debilitating that you missed a story of which virtually everyone else was aware.

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/6636563/University-of-East-Anglia-emails-the-most-contentious-quotes.html

        To be sure, the story was so damning that I don’t believe RBT missed it. I can only quote him in my rejoiner: I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion—lay out the “facts” for us.”

        C’mon, RBT, let’s all see you deny it here.

      • Vigilant
      • Vigilant

        “I can’t recall Mooney ever mentioning “creative design” in the three books of his that I’ve read, but he is a rational human being that accepts science and I’m sure he WOULD reject it if anyone asked him. There is NO argument and no “position”—-creative design is pure belief and religion, evolution is science based, period.”

        Talk about smugness! Not only that, the genius RBT can’t even tell the difference between “creationism” and “intelligent design.” In your out of hand rejection you disclose very clearly YOUR close mindedness in not willing to learn anything new that might shake your religious beliefs!

        Best of all, you reveal your (obviously in)complete knowledge of Mooney’s position with regard to intelligent design without ever having seen it expressed. My, my, tell me what your crystal ball has to say about stock market trends, RBT.

        “[intelligent] design is pure belief and religion, evolution is science based, period.” To borrow your words again, “I say you’re FOS with that rather bold assertion.”

        That makes you an intellectual pauper, RBT. Try http://www.discovery.org/a/9761 if you have the fortitude to be challenged in your ignorance.

      • Vigilant

        RBT says, “My comments about right-left brain being outmoded go right over his head as he doggedly insists on pursuing his fractured logic.”

        That statement is made after I twice asserted the truth of the debunking. Take a reading comprehension course, RBT.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Don’t need to “google around” and find “Climategate”, Vig. I followed the story as it unfolded over the past 3+ years, as you obviously have not. It is ancient history—-it has been investigated inside and out, and there is NO, repeat NO substance to it. There was even a bit of a resurgence in 2011, but that too was quickly dismissed. Why couldn’t you find something more recent to quote than an article from November 2009? Are you trying to mislead everyone?

        Here’s something considerably more recent. “Following the previous release of emails, scientists highlighted by the controversy have been vindicated by independent review, and claims that their science cannot or should not be trusted are entirely unsupported. They, the University and the wider research community have stood by the science throughout, and continue to do so,” the university (of East Anglia) said.

        And THAT came from the very same Fox News clip that you cited as some sort of “proof” of wrongdoing! If you don’t want to look foolish, Vig, you should read stuff closely enough to make sure it doesn’t shoot your argument in the foot.
        http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/11/22/climategate-20-more-emails-leaked-from-climate-researchers/

        Once again, (just like Frank), Vig “looks up” something that SOUNDS good to him and posts it as if it were truth. Although it IS sad that EVERYONE is aware of the truth there and Vig isn’t, I guess we should excuse that because he’s such an amateur. And those are the “facts”.

        “There is NO argument and no “position”—-creative design is pure belief and religion, evolution is science based, period.” No smugness there, VIg, just a statement of fact. I do know the difference between “creationism” and “intelligent design.”, but what needs to be stressed is that BOTH are NOT science but RELIGIOUS BELiEFS..

        Vig says, “”Best of all, you reveal your (obviously in)complete knowledge of Mooney’s position with regard to intelligent design without ever having seen it expressed”. Does that imply that YOU know Mooney’s position? PLEASE fill us in on that—-as I said, I read three of his books and don’t recall seeing anything in them about CD or ID. To use my words again, “I say you’re FOS with any assertion.that CD and ID are in any way science based.”

        The grand finale, a citation from The Center for Science and Culture. A wing nut religious quasi pseudo-science site designed to provide Koolaid for guys like Vig. The very first line on the site states “Intelligent design is a scientific theory” NO-NO-NO! intelligent design is a religious belief that crackpots insist on trying to prove by twisting and misinterpreting science.

        Take a thinking course, Vigilant.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        PS I got to thinking and went and took my copy of “The Republican War Against Science” off the shelf. I didn’t want to have to wait for VIG to tell us what Vig thinks Mooney thinks, espcially since wh would likely “do a Frank” and badly misinterpret what he found . I found that Mooney had in fact devoted one whole chapter to “creation science” (pp170-194) in that book.

        After rereading that chapter, I can say without reservation that Mooney would wholeheartedly endorse this statement. “Anyone who says CD and ID are in any way science based is FOS.”

        • Frank Kahn

          Would it be better if he did a “RBT” and simply ignore any facts available?

      • Vigilant

        RBT says, “PS I got to thinking…”

        Well, better late than never I guess.

      • Vigilant

        “The grand finale, a citation from The Center for Science and Culture. A wing nut religious quasi pseudo-science site designed to provide Koolaid for guys like Vig.”

        Well, that vehement fusillade of epithets certainly belies any pretension on RBT’s part to conduct a reasoned argument. More likely, it’s sign of meltdown when one is forced to retreat to such a string of insulting words in lieu of argument on the merits of fact. Let’s not forget that’s classic Alinsky tactics of attacking the messenger.

        Shall I throw RBT’s words back at him? I quote, “Consider the source”, he says? Consider the implications of the CONTENTS of the article, I say in return.”

        Indeed.

      • Vigilant

        I submit that RBT, for all his vaunted groveling before the altar of science, has never taken the time to understand, much less read, the non-religious nature of the research surrounding intelligent design. It is more likely that he relies on “wing nut [atheist] quasi pseudo-science sites designed to provide Koolaid for guys like [RBT].”

        He displays the abject fear so characteristic of the orthodox with “NO-NO-NO! intelligent design is a religious belief that crackpots insist on trying to prove by twisting and misinterpreting science.” My, my, such vehemence! The shouting is not so much a sign of confidence as it is a cry of fear.

        ‘Twould appear that the Atheist Inquisition is alive and well, ready to scourge and pillory the heretics who challenge the dogmas of the tunnel-visioned. Yes, these are the types who, in the 19th century said, “all science is settled, we’ve discovered everything that we could discover about our world.”

        A word to the wise: “settled science” is an oxymoron.

        The problem with this ilk is that they have a compulsion to frame every such argument in the context of their own religious predilections. Advancing the frontiers of science takes a back seat to their need to defend atheism. It’s a sordid and wasteful venture that distracts from the solution of problems to the detriment of real advancements.

        Bigots on both sides of the argument insist on the existence of a chasm that in fact needs not exist.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank Kahn and Vigilant do their weak “two stooges” imitation with
        “Would it be better if he did a “RBT” and simply ignore any facts available?” and “I got to thinking…Well, better late than never I guess”. Stunningly mindless!, says RBT

        It looks like I am going to have to repeat this endlessly because Vigilant is bound and determined to make truth out of lies, and he leaves me no choice.

        There is NO reasoned scientific argument to be made for intelligent design. It is RELIGION, not science—-that’s a FACT that Vig will likely continue to ignore as he preaches to us..

        There is NO “non-religious research surrounding intelligent design”. All the so-called “research” has been done not by scientists seeking truth, but by religionists seeking to twist science to their purposes.

        “abject fear”? I’ll say it yet again—- “NO-NO-NO! intelligent design is a religious belief that crackpots insist on trying to prove by twisting and misinterpreting science.” I DO fear that all too many among the ignorant, deluded, and misinformed will suck up this crap—-it is all part of the Republican/conservative “war on science” that is doing so much damage to the country.

        Vigilant waxes poetic and impresses himself with some more rhetoric in closing. He is again proving that he is FOS as he continues to try to give any scientific credibility to religious ideas.

        Believe what you want to believe, Vig—-that’s your right—-just don’t try to impose your beliefs on the rest of us, and insist that science is with you. It’s NOT.and never will be.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank Kahn says something stupid yet again, “You have no science background nor do you exhibit any scientific knowledge”.

        And adds to the score with, “You are a hack and an infantile degenerat (sic)”.

        Love that “infantile degenerate” bit—-only in the mind of Frank would those two words come together.

        RBT is now ahead 282 to 3.

        • Frank Kahn

          REMEMBER, THERE IS NO SCORE, ESPECIALLY ON YOUR SIDE OF THE EQUATION.

          INFANTILE AND DEGENERATE ARE COMPATIBLE TERMS FOR NORMALLY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, I AM SORRY YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THE ACCURACY OF THE DETERMINATION.

      • Vigilant

        RBT says, “It looks like I am going to have to repeat this endlessly because Vigilant is bound and determined to make truth out of lies, and he leaves me no choice.”

        “There is NO reasoned scientific argument to be made for intelligent design. It is RELIGION, not science—-that’s a FACT that Vig will likely continue to ignore as he preaches to us..”

        Repeat at your leisure, sonny, as often as you wish. “Proof” by bald faced assertion is no proof at all. And I’ll not stop anyone from being a fool in public. That’s your right, which you have chosen to display at every turn.

        “Preaching,” i.e., demanding that we accept your point of view on faith alone, is your bailiwick, not mine.

        For RBT it is “religion” to assert that the formation of the DNA molecule has virtually ZERO probability of occurring under random circumstances. It is a mathematical calculation, not a religious speculation, that formation of DNA had a 1 in 10 to the power of 81,990 probability under the randomness of evolution.

        “This means that 10 [raised to the power of] 89,190 DNA molecules, on average, must form to provide the one chance of forming the specific DNA sequence necessary to code 124 proteins. 10 [raised to the power of] 89,190 DNA [molecules] would weigh 10 [raised to the power of] 89,147 more than the earth … A quantity of DNA this colossal could never have been formed.” (R.L. Wysong)

        “Mathematicians agree that any requisite number beyond 10 to the power of 50 has, statistically, a zero probability of occurrence.” (I.L. Cohen)

        “In order to circumvent the problem of statistical zero, evolutionists often argue that “Given enough time, anything can happen.” This is not a rational argument. It proves nothing. It is a reference to practically infinite periods of time that lie beyond statistical zero.”

        “A further aspect I should like to discuss is what I call the practice of avoiding the conclusion that the probability of a self-producing state is zero … When for practical purposes the condition of infinite time and matter has to be invoked, the concept of probability is annulled. By such logic we can prove anything … ” (P.T. Mora)

        Now RBT, go ahead and step on your member by telling us that’s religion and not mathematics.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        OK, Vigilant, THAT’S RELIGION AND NOT MATHEMATICS. I will say it again, you are entitled to your BELIEFS, and entitled to cite the erroneous “mathematics” of others who are trying to prove the unprovable “fact” of creative design”, those who would misuse science and math in the pursuit of preaching. You are NOT entitled to maintain that any of that has any validity. To repeat some other things,

        “There is NO reasoned scientific argument to be made for intelligent design. It is RELIGION, not science”

        “Vigilant is bound and determined to make truth out of lies”

        “Preaching,” i.e., demanding that we accept Vigilant’s “point of view” on faith alone, is exactly what Vigilant is doing, since his arguments have no basis in science”

        Vigilant is not being honest with us when he claims to be speaking of science rather than religion. Creation science has morphed into intelligent design, but neither one is “scientific”. Vig needs to become familiar with the judges’ ruling in the Dover PA case—a jusge who is a Republican and Bush appointee, by the way..

      • Vigilant

        No brain says, “OK, Vigilant, THAT’S RELIGION AND NOT MATHEMATICS. I will say it again, you are entitled to your BELIEFS, and entitled to cite the erroneous “mathematics” of others who are trying to prove the unprovable “fact” of creative design”, those who would misuse science and math in the pursuit of preaching. You are NOT entitled to maintain that any of that has any validity.”

        “Erroneous mathematics?” Oh, that’s rich, NBT. I doubt you would know diddly about probability theory to begin with, but that’s not the key problem you have. Your summary dispensation with hard mathematics as “erroneous” is based on ONE single fact, i.e., your priggish and bigoted refusal to be enlightened by fact when it stares you in the face.

        Your bald assertion that it is “erroneous mathematics” is backed up by NOTHING but your say so. And you expect anyone to take you seriously purely on FAITH? You’re as bad as any tent revival preacher I’ve ever heard of.

        Indeed you are one of “those who would misuse science and math in the pursuit of preaching” a particular secular doctrine. I don’t know whether to laugh at you or pity you.

        You may act cocksure, but you are indeed one scared individual, one who craves the security of absolute certainty. Such are the true believers, and I use that term in the sense that Eric Hoffer does.

        Another outburst from NBT: “There is NO reasoned scientific argument to be made for intelligent design. It is RELIGION, not science.”

        Rough translation: “I have either put my fingers in my ears and hummed rather than listen to rational scientific evidences, or I have made sure never to read anything that argues logically and mathematically for the theory of intelligent design.”

        “Vigilant is bound and determined to make truth out of lies.”

        NBT is bound and determined to make lies out of truth.

        “Vig needs to become familiar with the judges’ ruling in the Dover PA case—a jusge [sic] who is a Republican and Bush appointee, by the way..”

        That’s not only the biggest laugh today, it’s a sign of your desperation. No Brain appeals to that “expert scientist” on the bench. I have no doubt that he would believe that the earth is flat if some federal judge ruled thus, and he would have been first in line to burn the witches when the judge’s verdict was rendered.

      • Vigilant

        No Brain, you have become a caricature with no depth of understanding. Some day, when you grow up and get beyond the stomping of feet and “it ain’t so because I say it ain’t so” stage of argument, we might have something to talk about.

        Until then, I’ll not waste my time addressing the callow and sophomoric arguments of a bigot on this issue.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant again shows us the same blind persistence as Frank does in pursuing a dead end argument. By the way, Vig, how come you are no longer supporting Frank in his “brilliant math” and the brilliant put downs” he is delivering to me? Either you don’t understand the math either and are wisely staying out of it or you DO understand the math and have just cut Frank loose to drown in his ignorance—-not very nice of you.

        ID IS RELIGION AND NOT MATHEMATICS. I will say it again, you are entitled to your BELIEFS, and entitled to cite the erroneous “mathematics” of others who are trying to prove the unprovable “fact” of creative design”, those who would misuse science and math in the pursuit of preaching. You are NOT entitled to maintain that any of that has any validity beyond your OPINION that it is true.

        “Erroneous mathematics? Oh, that’s rich, NBT. I doubt you would know diddly about probability theory to begin with”, says Vigilant so very arrogantly and smugly. Actually, I would bet I know MUCH more that Vig does about probability, based on the simple fact that Vig doesn’t even know enough simple algebra to see the errors in Frank’s rantings about A = B x C. Same goes for Evolution—-so far, I have seen no evidence that Vig knows anything more about the topic than what he has parroted from those quasi science/religious sites.

        My bald assertion that it is “erroneous mathematics” is backed up by the FACT that all the “probability math” done by the ID “scientists” neglects the fact that probability is never certainty. The problem for ID is that all the “calculations” and “but, but’s” put forth by the religious don’t add up to but a smidgen of the overwhelming pile of SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for evolution. People say “you can’t PROVE evolution”—-the truth is that it is as close to being “proven” as anything gets and ID is still only “religion” in the eyes of ALL reputable scientists.

        There is NO reasoned scientific argument to be made for intelligent design. It is RELIGION, not science.

        I have never read anything that argues logically and mathematically for the theory of intelligent design that offers any real scientific proof. Logic and math can only carry an argument so far before they must add up to proof or be rejected.

        Vigilant is bound and determined to make truth out of lies.

        Vig ever so casually dismisses my statement the he “needs to become familiar with the judges’ ruling in the Dover PA case—a judge who is a Republican and Bush appointee, by the way.” The judge’s ruling was well over 200 pages long, WAS based on his research and testimony from REAL scientists (as well as the charlatan scientists who testified for intelligent design), and has NOT been appealed (and WILL NOT be, because it has so devastated the ID argument—-it will likely never be brought to court again in this way—-the court has declared with finality that ID is religion, not science—-end of story)

        Vigilant shows us that he is without any real arguments to make when he resorts to “I have no doubt that he would believe that the earth is flat if some federal judge ruled thus, and he would have been first in line to burn the witches when the judge’s verdict was rendered” Yes, Vigilant has become a caricature with no depth of understanding. Some day, when he grows up and get beyond the stomping of feet and the simple need to believe demonstrated by “it’s so because I say it’s so, I say it’s so because I want it to be so” stage of argument, we might have something to talk about.

        Until then, I’ll not waste my time addressing the sophomoric arguments of a religious bigot who denies science because of religious-based ideology and hypocrisy.

      • Vigilant

        RBT, let’s both tone down the inflammatory nature of our argument, OK?

        “Actually, I would bet I know MUCH more that Vig does about probability, based on the simple fact that Vig doesn’t even know enough simple algebra to see the errors in Frank’s rantings about A = B x C.”

        RBT, I carry on my own disputes. I have paid but peripheral attention to the math war between you and Frank. What I saw bolsters your point. But I have no interest in embroiling myself in an argument that bears no relevance to the ID theory.

        “Same goes for Evolution—-so far, I have seen no evidence that Vig knows anything more about the topic than what he has parroted from those quasi science/religious sites.”

        I am not about to expound on my beliefs regarding evolutionary theory, with the exception of saying that I understand it and find little if anything wrong with it. Nor do I, contrary to your implications, find any problem with acceptance of ID and evolution together. I’ve said before that they are not necessarily mutually exclusive, an observation you chose to ignore.

        Since you decline to reveal your religious beliefs, I will disclose mine and we’ll let the chips fall where they may.

        I, like the important Founders, am a Deist. There is nothing in this belief that excludes evolution at all. Only those committed and blind atheists that fear a connection between science and religion insist upon keeping the two concepts segregated. As do the Christian fundamentalists with whom I have no concern. I have no such compulsion.

        Personally, I approached ID with an open mind, finding it fascinating that a possibility exists to bring us closer in understanding of how the Universe operates. My religious beliefs can stand alone without the crutch of “proving” anything that reason alone cannot reveal.

        As for evolution, I don’t find a necessarily disjunctive relationship between that and ID. Nor does ID, in my mind, exclude the randomness of natural selection.

        While I admit there are no doubt agendized people conducting the ID investigations, I won’t categorically throw out the baby with the bathwater. Strictly from a scientific viewpoint, it appears to me that some of its findings, regardless of motivation, appear to have lasting validity. And to attack the theories based solely on motivations of the participants is analogous, to my way of thinking, to condemning Christianity as a value system simply because people and organizations (the church) have acted badly in history, and some still do. The Inquisition is to be blamed on the church, NOT the value system the church so crassly disregarded.

        That being said, I find the mathematical probability figures stated with regard to the DNA molecule to be persuasive. This is an area I would truly beseech you to look at, with an open mind. Not with an eye toward proving anything with regard to religion one way or another, but with a sense of curiosity and skepticism at the same time, as all scientific hypotheses should be approached.

        To assert that DNA is a perfect example of programming is not to say that evolutionary change is programmed as well. I’ll continue with this discussion if we can both commit to civility. I do.

        Shall we unruffle our feathers?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant says, “Shall we unruffle our feathers?” Just as vigilant deludes himself that there is any scientific argument to be made for intelligent design, he deludes himself that anything he has said has “ruffled my feathers”.

        He further says, “RBT, I carry on my own disputes. I have paid but peripheral attention to the math war between you and Frank. What I saw bolsters your point” and states “RBT, let’s both tone down the inflammatory nature of our argument, OK?” MY rhetoric has not been inflammatory, Vig—-YOURS has though, both in your “peripheral” attention to Frank’s total math insanity and in your “preaching” of your religious beliefs.

        As to Frank, saying “BTW, Frank, you are right. If RBT can’t answer that simple question, then we both know, and now the world knows, how pitifully insufficient are his math skills”. and “He probably had to rush out to get a 9th grade algebra textbook” and “Got your threads mixed up, sonny?” is about as “inflammatory” as it gets.

        I have no interest in embroiling myself in an argument that bears no relevance to reality because of the bad science employed by those like you who support ID theory and want it to receive equal standing with the scientific theories of the origin and evolution of life. And you can deny it, but that’s the minimal goal of the ID deceivers. Of course, once that goal has been achieved, the next step is to throw out ALL the science and just go with the religion as science instead. You can BS the world, Vig, but some of us see through your game.

        You say, “I am not about to expound on my beliefs regarding evolutionary theory, with the exception of saying that I understand it and find little if anything wrong with it” Really? What is that “little” you “find wrong” and why?.

        And I have NOT implied that you “find any problem with acceptance of ID and evolution together”. What I DO object to strenuously is you saying that “they are not necessarily mutually exclusive” an observation I not only do NOT choose to ignore but will again state emphatically is untrue. Id is RELIGION, evolution is SCIENCE, and they ARE mutually exclusive.

        You say that you, “like the important Founders, are a Deist”, and smoothly swing over into horsepucky with “There is nothing in this belief that excludes evolution at all” and a slam at “atheists”. All that you say from there on proves that you are a mere propagandist for ID

        It is NOT “fascinating” that a possibility exists for ID to bring us “closer in understanding of how the Universe operates”. Only SCIENCE can do that—-save your “fascination” for the ways RELIGION is employed to twist science and justify ID. Your religious beliefs SHOULD stand alone without the crutch of “proving” anything that reason alone cannot reveal—-that’s what I have been saying to you—-believe what you want to believe but DON’T try to use SCIENCE (“reason”) to justify it or sell it to the ignorant.

        While you admit there are no doubt agenda-ized people conducting the ID investigations, (NOT you, of course) you “won’t categorically throw out the baby with the bathwater”, blah-blah-blah—–more horsepucky.

        Strictly from a scientific viewpoint, it appears to me that NONE of ID’s findings, regardless of motivation, appear to have more than a fleeting surface validity.

        I must compliment you for this PHD level “speech”—-that’s Piled Higher and Deeper). Are you sure you aren’t WTS/JAY—-that is just his kind of stuff.
        “And to attack the theories based solely on motivations of the participants is analogous, to my way of thinking, to condemning Christianity as a value system simply because people and organizations (the church) have acted badly in history, and some still do. The Inquisition is to be blamed on the church, NOT the value system the church so crassly disregarded”.

        “That being said, I find the mathematical probability figures stated with regard to the DNA molecule to be persuasive”. (Of COURSE you do!—but they’re NOT persuasive in any scientific sense)
        “This is an area I would truly beseech you to look at, with an open mind. Not with an eye toward proving anything with regard to religion one way or another, but with a sense of curiosity and skepticism at the same time, as all scientific hypotheses should be approached”
        “Beseech”? Rather biblical term, that, and it describes what you’re doing nicely. . There is no “scientific hypothesis” to approach here, just an attempt to use science to push a religious belief—-after 73 years on this planet, and having had uncounted people like you try to “sell” me one kind of religion or another , I have no more “curiosity” to spend on more foolishness.

        I’m not really clear on your meaning here “To assert that DNA is a perfect example of programming is not to say that evolutionary change is programmed as well”—-you need to restate that. And you’ll “continue with this discussion if we can both commit to civility. I do”. First, there is NO “discussion” taking place here—-you are spouting religion, I am speaking science, there are no scientific facts on your side to put forth so there can be no discussion on your side—-just “preaching”. All that remains to be seen is it you are as stubborn as Frank in your delusions and closely held beliefs..

        Can’t recall that I was ever asked to state my religious beliefs, so it’s hard to see how I could have “declined” to reveal them. I have been trained in science, and have an extensive background in both the physical and biological sciences. I walk in constant wonder during my every waking moment—-looking at my surroundings and asking things like “why is there green?”, “why is there up”, “why is there time?”, “why is there liquid?”, “why is there “there”?. The connectedness of everything we can observe and infer from our our surroundings is awesome. I could accept the idea of a “God” who created it all if he revealed himself to me or someone (scientifically) proved his existence and/or involvement in any of it. That would make me a deist also. Until that happens, I believe that what is, just “IS”, and that it is his mindless hubris that has led man to embrace “religion” and believe he has any special place in the scheme of things. Back to your deism—-do you accept the Bible as literal truth? If not, then what? If you want to discuss religion, I am perfectly willing to do that “with civility”, since there is no science to be defended there, just beliefs, and everyone is entitled to their own, just not to their own facts.

      • Vigilant

        Well, I tried. You don’t want to conduct a civil conversation, that’s your call.

        Just one thing: “Back to your deism [sic]—-do you accept the Bible as literal truth?”

        If you knew anything about Deism, you’d know that it does NOT accept the Bible as literal truth. I’ve mentioned this a time or two but you’ve disregarded that as well. If it were Christianity, it’d be called Christianity.

        You say “I could accept the idea of a “God” who created it all if he revealed himself to me or someone (scientifically) proved his existence and/or involvement in any of it. That would make me a deist also.”

        It would not. Deism completely rejects the “revealed” claims of religion. For that matter, so does modern society by and large. Try and tell the world you’ve had a vision or visitation and God has told you exactly what the plan is. You’ll more likely either end up in a mental ward or playing Jim Jones to a bunch of gullible “true believers.”

        Moreover, you seem to misunderstand the function of science. Science will always strive to tell us the “hows” of life, it will never tell us the “whys” you speak of. We may infer the existence of intelligence with a big “I,” or believe those evidences which we interpret as pointing to it. The true hubris here is the notion that science will tell all that we ever need to know about our world.

        You would require scientific proof of the existence of a Creator. You ask the impossible, since science would have to reduce the infinite to the finite. Such a reduction is beyond the powers of science, and if it could perform such a magic feat, it would at the very moment it did so destroy the very thing it was claiming to prove.

        Even the fundamentalists are guilty of this tendency when they jump at archaeological, historical and yes, scientific “proofs” of God. To demand such “proofs” as a prerequisite to faith is self-defeating, indicating not an abundance of, but a weakness of belief.

        I am not trying to sell you on any kind of religion, nor “spout” it as you say. It matters nothing to me what you believe. I simply refer to Shakespeare to have you consider the possibility that “there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

        • Frank Kahn

          I read his response first, since I go through these things last to first. I misunderstood the argument at that point.

          From his response, you are right, he has no idea about the difference between deism and Christianity. He seems to think it is all just the same kind of religion with different names. He is actually closer to a deist than a Christian, but his sinful pride keeps him from accepting something greater than himself.

          Hell, if super advanced aliens visited him he would probably say it was a right wing nut hoax.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant displays a lot of the technique called “abandonment of discussion” in this comment. Beating around the bush, deflecting, trying to put words in my mouth, etc..

        Such as saying, “Well, I tried. You don’t want to conduct a civil conversation, that’s your call”. Who says I don’t want to conduct a civil conversation? Just because you don’t like what I say or can’t counter it doesn’t make it “uncivil”.

        Just one thing: “Back to your deism [sic]—-do you accept the Bible as literal truth?” I’m not asking about deism, I’m asking about YOUR deism—-simple yes or no is all that’s needed. And knock off the (sic) with god, bible, deism, and the rest of the religious verbiage—-if you want me to respect your need to capitalize those things, respect my right to NOT do so when I feel it is appropriate and to do so when I feel it is—-or are you trying to impose your religious beliefs on me?

        “I could accept the idea of a “God” who created it all if he revealed himself to me or someone (scientifically) proved his existence and/or involvement in any of it. That would make me a deist also.” Why do you argue this point? Are you telling me what I must believe? I am a believer in rationality and science—–if I “see” evidence that God exists, I may believe—-it will not be “revealed” in any more than a purely personal sense—-no one else can be involved in it—–and it will not be “religion”, because it will NOT alter my views of man’s place in things by one inch, not will it cause me to talk to anyone about it if it did occur. It would merely mean that perhaps I understood a bit more about the origin of what “IS”, and maybe not even that, depending.

        You say that I “seem to misunderstand the function of science. Science will always strive to tell us the “hows” of life, it will never tell us the “whys” you speak of”
        Sorry, Vig, but you are the one who misunderstands (or can’t resist trying to put words in my mouth) Science only tells us the “hows” and connects them up with “whys” on the purely scientific level. I have NEVER implied that it answers the “whys” of the metaphysical meanderings of religion. I infer the presence of NO intelligence as you do—-that is the world of the ID believers, not the scientists—to me, the world simply “IS”. The true hubris here is your notion that religion should be interposed between science and our “understanding of our world”.

        You say, “You would require scientific proof of the existence of a Creator. You ask the impossible, since science would have to reduce the infinite to the finite. Such a reduction is beyond the powers of science, and if it could perform such a magic feat, it would at the very moment it did so destroy the very thing it was claiming to prove”
        With that comment, you show that you perhaps DO get it a tiny bit. YES, science can’t prove god exists, god is neither finite or infinite—he just doesn’t exist and is a construct—-something made up by humans to fill human needs—-that’s why god and science don’t go together and you should knock off the “preaching”.

        You close with,”I am not trying to sell you on any kind of religion, nor “spout” it as you say. It matters nothing to me what you believe”. Good, then stop doing those things that make it appear that you are doing exactly that.

        • Frank Kahn

          Vigilant, give up, he won’t understand the difference between god and God any more than he understands true science.

          He is a lost one, he looks to test our God, to MAKE him PROVE HIMSELF. Seems there is a place in the Bible where Jesus says one should not test God.

          Other than his atheistic view of God being man made, he made a mistake in his statement about proof. It is not that science can’t prove God exists and they can’t prove that he does not exist. It is that science cannot prove Gode exists BECAUSE they can’t prove that he doesn’t.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank Kahn is sniffing around Vigilant, hoping to find some support from Vigilant for his other idiocies on the thread, I guess. Frank is, of course, once again showing us how out of touch with reality and logic he can be.

        Frank says, “From his response, you are right, he has no idea about the difference between deism and Christianity”.
        Really, Frank? Since you brought it up, I do believe in many “Christian principles and behaviors”, but I will not be a Christian in the sense that the religionists use it until I see the same sort of proof of Christ’s divinity that would make me a Deist.

        “Hell, if super advanced aliens visited him he would probably say it was a right wing nut hoax”. Actually, Frank, once I was sure I had actually been visited by “super advanced aliens”, I would just say that I “had been visited by super advanced aliens”, no more, no less.

        Frank offers advice to Vigilant when he says “Vigilant, give up, he won’t understand the difference between god and God any more than he understands true science”. Remember, Frank is an EXPERT in anything Frank chooses to be expert in. At present, that seems to be religion, “true” science, and his old standby, English grammar and word usage. (little g, BIG G, Frank—I DO understand)

        “He is a lost one, he looks to test our God, to MAKE him PROVE HIMSELF. Seems there is a place in the Bible where Jesus says one should not test God.”
        Frank the EXPERT says “SEEMS to be a place in the bible”? But he can’t quote it even though he SEEMS to think it’s important? LOL And which bible, Frank? There are only some 600 versions of it in print? Which one is the one that speaks truth to us?

        “It is not that science can’t prove God exists and they can’t prove that he does not exist. It is that science cannot prove God exists BECAUSE they can’t prove that he doesn’t”
        What? What???? Go back to your “Arguing About Religion for Dummies” book and check out that reference again—-are you SURE you got it right?.

        PS to Vigilant
        Are you going to acknowledge Frank’s “contribution” and embrace him? Be careful, if you do, it will not take long for him to make you look foolish as he did with the A-B-C algebra lunacy.

        (score update—-302 RBT to 3 Frank)

        • Frank Kahn

          I had to look up the definition of expert to see why you keep claiming that I am claiming to be an expert. I can see where you might misinterpret expert in a way to make this claim. However, I don’t claim to have “special” knowledge of these subjects, just normal everyday information. To have knowledge of something does not mean you are an expert, just educated. Kind of like you, you claim to have normal everyday information about physics from an education, nothing special about that. And a person does not need special information about a subject to know when you are wrong. We just do a little research and try to show you why you are wrong.

          so here goes, you said:

          “Frank Kahn is sniffing around Vigilant, hoping to find some support from Vigilant for his other idiocies on the thread, I guess. ”

          Good choice of words “I guess”, that is what it is, just a guess and nothing more. Your choice of the word sniffing, to imply a dog, is crude and uncivil. Your inability to understand facts does not make them idiotic.

          “Frank is, of course, once again showing us how out of touch with reality and logic he can be.”

          We will show how stupid this remark is in the rest of the quote.

          “Frank says, “From his response, you are right, he has no idea about the difference between deism and Christianity”. Really, Frank? ”

          Yes, really, and the following parts of your post proves it.

          “Since you brought it up, I do believe in many “Christian principles and behaviors”

          You generalized too much here, what principles are you talking about? The 5 main principles of Christianity require the belief in Jesus as Christ or a belief in the spiritual intervention of God in the working of the world.

          “, but I will not be a Christian in the sense that the religionists use it until I see the same sort of proof of Christ’s divinity that would make me a Deist.”

          This part depends on whether you meant to put a comma after the word divinity. Without the comma you are totally wrong. With the comma, you might be correct but it requires other prerequisites. Just denying Jesus as Christ does not make you a deist, even the Jews and Muslims deny Jesus was the son of God.

          “Hell, if super advanced aliens visited him he would probably say it was a right wing nut hoax”. Actually, Frank, once I was sure I had actually been visited by “super advanced aliens”, I would just say that I “had been visited by super advanced aliens”, no more, no less.”

          First impression, you would have a difficult being convinced.

          “Frank offers advice to Vigilant when he says “Vigilant, give up, he won’t understand the difference between god and God any more than he understands true science”. Remember, Frank is an EXPERT in anything Frank chooses to be expert in. At present, that seems to be religion, “true” science, and his old standby, English grammar and word usage. (little g, BIG G, Frank—I DO understand)”

          No, you do not understand. There is a reason for the big G or little g. A little god is a false god.

          “He is a lost one, he looks to test our God, to MAKE him PROVE HIMSELF. Seems there is a place in the Bible where Jesus says one should not test God.”
          Frank the EXPERT says “SEEMS to be a place in the bible”? But he can’t quote it even though he SEEMS to think it’s important? LOL And which bible, Frank? There are only some 600 versions of it in print? Which one is the one that speaks truth to us?”

          There is a difference between not doing and not being able to do. The word seems is like saying I think, it is an expression. Maybe you would prefer I used the words, “I know there is a place in the Bible where Jesus says one should not test God”. The verse comes in a part of the Bible referred to as the temptation of Jesus. Here is the quote, and you will note that verse 7 is where Jesus makes that statement.

          “Matthew 4:1-11
          King James Version (KJV)

          4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
          2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
          3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
          4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
          5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
          6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
          7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
          8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
          9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
          10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
          11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.”

          http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4%3A1-11&version=KJV

          And, on the question of which Bible is the correct one for the truth? Well, that depends on your perspective, for the Jews, it is the Hebrew Bible, which does not adhere to the teachings of the New Testament.

          “It is not that science can’t prove God exists and they can’t prove that he does not exist. It is that science cannot prove God exists BECAUSE they can’t prove that he doesn’t”
          What? What???? Go back to your “Arguing About Religion for Dummies” book and check out that reference again—-are you SURE you got it right?.

          OOPS, you made fun of the wrong book, it would be science for dummies not religion.

          “PS to Vigilant
          Are you going to acknowledge Frank’s “contribution” and embrace him? Be careful, if you do, it will not take long for him to make you look foolish as he did with the A-B-C algebra lunacy.”

          Again you use a word incorrectly, lunacy would not fit your lame excuse for ridicule in this example.

          “(score update—-302 RBT to 3 Frank)”

          And, again, there is no score. And, if there was, you would not be authorized to keep it since your scoring is biased in your favor. But just for S and G, my quoting the Bible is a point against you.

      • Vigilant

        Well, twice I’ve tried to elevate the discussion, but NBT prefers to continue his denigrating tirade. I’ll make no further efforts along those lines.

        NBT says, “YES, science can’t prove god exists, god is neither finite or infinite—he just doesn’t exist and is a construct…”

        Well, there you have it. He just defeated his own argument. Any flatly declarative statement that God does or does not exist is neither true nor false, it is plain nonsense. And any flatly declarative statement that God does or does not exist is in reality a statement of faith and not an empirical statement.

        You may have missed the “logical positivism” boat some time go. The philosophy states that any hypothesis is meaningful only if an empirical test, or imaginable empirical test, can be performed to validate or prove it false. It has been the crutch of atheists since the philosophy was introduced. (Re: A.J. Ayers, “Language, Truth and Logic”).

        Atheism is a value system (actually, a religion in itself) that takes it on faith that God does not exist. They can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God by any criterion, empirical or non empirical.

        Any such assertion that “god is neither finite or infinite—he just doesn’t exist and is a construct…” is neither true nor false, it is just plain nonsense…as is the flat declaratory “God does exist.” I will never be caught in such sophomoric priggishness. I will say “I BELIEVE in his existence.” Somehow I know that NBT will never deign to admit “I BELIEVE that God does not exist.”

        NBT thinks he has some special (and supernatural) insight into the Universe when he makes such a statement. Ah, such hubris! Face it, your assertion is a statement of faith, NOT provable fact.

        Now, he can make such a statement, as he has the freedom of speech to do it, but it carries no more legitimacy than the statement “40 angels can sit on the head of a pin.”

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant says, “twice I’ve tried to elevate the discussion, but NBT prefers to continue his denigrating tirade. I’ll make no further efforts along those lines”. First, can we assume that Vig is doing some “denigrating” with “NBT”, which he repeats many times? What does the N stand for, Vig? No? Nasty? Negligible” Vig is mindless with the “N”.

        NBT says, “YES, science can’t prove god exists, god is neither finite or infinite—he just doesn’t exist and is a construct…”

        And VIgilant insists on having his way with the truth when he (smugly) states as if it meant anything to anyone but him, “Well, there you have it. He just defeated his own argument. Any flatly declarative statement that God does or does not exist is neither true nor false, it is plain nonsense. And any flatly declarative statement that God does or does not exist is in reality a statement of faith and not an empirical statement’

        In actuality, any statement that god does or does not exist is true. Maybe not to those who believe the opposite, but to those who make the statement. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell Vig all along—-religion is belief, not science, and his constant attempts to talk about logic and hypotheses and empiricism are just more of the same preaching and propagandizing he is so committed to doing.

        Atheists need no “crutch” because atheism is not a “value system” based on “faith” but on a simple acceptance of the idea that god does not exist—-Vigilant and his ilk would set it up as a “religion” straw man so that they can argue against it. Atheism seeks to neither prove nor disprove the existence of God by any criterion—–that’s the thing that religionists do.

        Vigilant plays semantics with denigrating with “sophomoric priggishness”, except that he is describing himself exactly in case he doesn’t know it. (And I must LOL at the juxtaposition of the words “sophomoric” and “:priggishness”—-WAY too much overreach, Vig—-I have known thousands of “sophomores”, and almost none were “priggish”)

        Fine, let’s play word games. Vig says “I will say “I BELIEVE in his existence.” I will say “good for you” and that (pick any or all):

        “I BELIEVE that God does not exist.”
        God does not exist.
        God has not be proven to exist.
        God exists only in the mind of weak humans looking for a crutch.
        Vigilant is an unrepentant preacher for one religious viewpoint.
        Vigilant would impose his BELIEFS on all of us.

        The last two are the ones of most significance to us today on PLD

        Vigilant closes with what he thinks is a “closer”, unable to see through his confirmation bias that he is the one speaking from faith and demonstrating hubris throughout this comment. Lord love a duck, Vigilant!. Slap your face, wake up, and face reality!

        ” Ah, such hubris! Face it, your assertion is a statement of faith”.

      • Vigilant

        No Brain, thanks for that eloquent proof of my assertions. Couldn’t have done it without you.

        Some day. you might learn for the first time in your wasted life, that “fact” and “opinion” are not synonyms. I can distinguish the difference, obviously you can’t.

        I sometimes marvel over old bigots like you. Most of us, as we go through life, learn to discard our callow, immature atitudes and certainties in the crucible of life. Others, like yourself, simply become bitter old coots who cling to the old beliefs and become set in their ways, unpersuadable by any factual, logical, rational arguments. Most of us have many years of experience. Then there are those like you, who have one year’s experience, repeated many times. You will never truly grow through learning, as you’ve obviously abandoned that pursuit some time ago.

        Yes, by all means, call it “ad hominem.” That’s precisely what’s intended.

        I’ll let you insist on having the last word, which I KNOW you will take. I won’t be checking back for an answer, so be as lengthy or brief as your bruised ego requires.

        P.S. If you don’t know the meaning of “sophomoric,” look it up in the dictionary.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant proves that he is a dilletante who doesn’t pay attention by saying “P.S. If you don’t know the meaning of “sophomoric,” look it up in the dictionary”. He has conveniently forgotten that I have already done this for all, listing the Latin roots of the word, and talking about how I taught many “wise fools” in 10th. grade Biology classes. But never let fact get in the way of a mindless attack, VIg—–blather on

        Vigilant seems to think that his assertion of my somehow proving something he said by what I said holds water——only among the mindless and ignorant. I leave it to the intelligent and discerning to laugh quietly at Vigilant yet again.

        Another bold assertion (several in fact) “Some day. you might learn for the first time in your wasted life, that “fact” and “opinion” are not synonyms. I can distinguish the difference, obviously you can’t”. My life is “wasted”, Vig? Is that “fact” or “opinion”?
        I don’t know the difference between “fact” and “opinion” when I have given many lectures on that on many threads on PLD? Vig has offered ALL unsupported opinion here, not a single fact—-did I pass the quiz?

        “I sometimes marvel over old bigots like you. Most of us, as we go through life, learn to discard our callow, immature atitudes and certainties in the crucible of life. Others, like yourself, simply become bitter old coots who cling to the old beliefs and become set in their ways, unpersuadable by any factual, logical, rational arguments. Most of us have many years of experience. Then there are those like you, who have one year’s experience, repeated many times. You will never truly grow through learning, as you’ve obviously abandoned that pursuit some time ago”.

        Awesome display of helplessness! And cluttered with the rather trite “one year’s experience, repeated many times”, and the wildly overreaching “you’ve abandoned learning”, “callow immature”, and “bitter old coot” horsepucky. LMAO

        Vigilant says of this remarkable display of loss of control, “Yes, by all means, call it “ad hominem.” That’s precisely what’s intended”. I don’t need to “call” it that, because it’s self evident that is all that it is. The last refuge of those who have no arguments to present, can’t rebut any arguments that have been presented to them, and are so frustrated by their inadequacies that they resort to name calling. It’s actually surprising, Vigilant, because I thought you were a cut above some of the other PLD denizens who do little BUT name call—-but it did take you a while to “collapse” and do it in such a concentrated manner—-for that I compliment you.

        And Vigilant says “I’ll let you insist on having the last word, which I KNOW you will take. I won’t be checking back for an answer, so be as lengthy or brief as your bruised ego requires” Sure, Vigilant, say whatever makes you feel good—-I can afford to be generous since I’m the one left holding the high ground. Anyone who looks at this exchange will know whose ego is “bruised” here. You’ll be back and we both know it. The only question is whether or not you will remain silent after you read this and really do let me have the last word or not. Based on the degree of your ad hominem “meltdown” above, I would bet that you won’t be able to resist trying a “comeback”.

        • Frank Kahn

          Actually, his description of you was correct, except he left out priggish this time. It is sad, but understandable that he has to resort to the exact same type of mindless name calling that you do. You are the king of such attacks, and yes, you are as he said stuck in a childish teenaged mentality of you against reason. And the silent laughter is at you not him.

    • Vigilant

      “Chip tries to make a connection between unions, immigrants, and voting,” says No Brain Thinker. Let’s apply a little objectivity and revise that statement to “Chip succeeds in making a connection between unions, immigrants, and voting,” .

      To a person of normal IQ, clear evidences of AFL-CIO and SEIU intentions (in their own words) are building blocks of a logical argument. To the lower quartile “thinkers,” such objective evidence is summarily discarded in favor of “I don’t care how many facts you throw at me, I’ll believe what I WANT to believe.”

      • Don 2

        [personal attack has been removed]

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant ups his ad hominem count with “No Brain Thinker”, “To a person of normal IQ”, and “lower quartile thinkers”. Of course there’s a connection between unions, immigrants, and voting—-the Repugnants and Chip and the mindless follower Vig see it one way, I see it another and think they’re wrong. I see the decline of unions as directly correlated with the decline of the middle class and the rise of the greedy rich, and would love to see a resurgence in union membership.

        Don 2 says: [personal attack has been removed]
        Must not have been “cute” or “witty”, huh?

    • TML

      RBT says, ““Worried business owners don’t invest, expand and create jobs. They hunker down and try to survive.” That’s the biggest piece of horsepucky in the article. The “business owners” are doing exactly what the Repugs in congress are doing—-holding the country hostage as they squeeze the middle class. Profits and dividends are at record highs, the rich get richer, the share of wealth going to the 99% declines, and the country at large suffers.”

      It sounds like you equate small business owners with a plutocracy and corporate oligarchy. How do you reach such a conclusion that business owners are “holding the country hostage as they squeeze the middle class”. Anyone who owns a business is considered not in the middle class and viewed as the rich getting richer? Makes no sense, please elaborate.

      Perhaps the 99% need to get off their duffs and act like entrepreneurial American’s rather than spoiled brats who expect everything to be handed to them.

      • Average Joe

        TML,

        “It sounds like you equate small business owners with a plutocracy and corporate oligarchy. ”

        We have new term that covers both:

        Ineptocracy
        (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy)

        A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for with the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

        AJ

      • Right Brain Thinker

        TML, It may “sound like I equate small business owners with a plutocracy and corporate oligarchy”, but if you have read my comments over many threads, you know that I am really talking about the “greedy rich” of the !%, and more specifically the 1/10 of 1% at the very top.

        You are correct that the “typical” small business owner is not to blame for any of this—-they are part of the 99% and caught with the rest of us. It’s the “big guys” who are sitting on the “big bucks” (although I DO think some of the little guys among the true small businesses are dragging their feet out of ideology rather than real financial concerns).

        Speaking of “ideology”, you do understand the “logic fail in saying “Perhaps the 99% need to get off their duffs and act like entrepreneurial American’s rather than spoiled brats who expect everything to be handed to them”?

        Aside from that sounding like the same tired old “takers”.argument, you DO realize that not everyone can be an “entrepreneur” and pursue “the dream”? There have always been workers and bosses, and there will continue to be—-the issue as I see it is achieving a fair and equitable distribution of income and wealth across the spectrum, rather than concentrating it in the hands of the few. We need to return to the “golden age of the middle class” in this country.

    • Robespierre

      If they divide us, they will overcome and destroy us along with the country

  • Flashy

    Chip…why are you against the working man? You don’t appear to be screaming about business organizations being formed to forward their interests, and taking dues from businesses which may forward platforms a singular business may object to … but get your feathers ruffled if the working man decides to have an organization for forward their interests. Why is that?

    you write “If they get their way, guess how many of those new citizens will become Democratic voters?” Now, a person becoming politically active is wrong just why? If the GOP had a platform which was favorable to one’s political viewpoints, seems to reason that party would pick up supporters. This rant of a “”they” don’t agree with the anti labor, anti union, anti woman, anti progressive [in the normal adjective use], anti social, pro business pro American Taliban, pro third world status of the Conservative Movement, so we oppose letting them in” would appear to block anyone coming in and gaining citizenship.

    You want to punish the poor slob who is here for one thing…a job. You and the extremists scream and yell about “deadbeats’ living on the dole as a life goal…and at the same time scream and foam at the mouth for punishing someone for wanting a job and working at substandard wages to move their place up in the world.

    You haven’t once in the article made any nose about the real criminals in the immigration issue. those who knowingly employ undocumented workers, avoid taxes, pay illegal wages, and substandard working conditions. Where is the indignation on that? You have Flashy…owning a business and who employs legal labor. He makes the same product as Wood Company. Pays all taxes. Wood Company employs undocumented workers so has lower wage costs, Wood Company does not pay the correct taxes because the labor is undocumented, Wood Company does not improve working conditions because the labor force cannot complain. For doing this, for avoiding taxes etc…Wood Company undercuts Flashy in pricing. Where is your indignation that the undocumented labor is now OUR burden as society and Wood Company makes off like the bandit it is?

    The Extremists, TPers, American taliban demand and pound the table for, a wall on our borders. be it a fence, a human shield of armed troops, or a concrete structure… a wall is a wall. And a wall works both ways. Why should i want to be walled in so a criminal element can avoid paying taxes and rob me blind without fear of being punished? Why should i need to carry papers with me proving i’m legally an American?

    Arizona came down hard against American freedoms and liberties in its zeal to punish people for wanting a job. If Arizona had passed a simple law…stating it was cracking down and enforcing the law, I’d venture the flow into that state would slow to a mere trickle.

    If Arizona decided anyone who employed an undocumented worker knowingly or should have known that worker was undocumented, the person in charge of hiring spend 30 days in the clink. Like a DUI charge, they get to spend at least an overnight until they can be released on bail … I’d bet the mortgage employers of undocumented would decrease significantly.

    Monetary fines are one thing…it’s pure economics that employing illegal labor is cost effective with todays fines..when they are imposed. (yes…highlighting how attractive it is to employ undocumented labor..). But have the Mrs. explain to the neighbors that “John” was called away unexpectedly for a few days…have “John”s name published akin to DUIs as being tossed in the hoosegow, have “John” experience what being a guest of the county is like.

    This can be accomplished at the state level, county level, city level. It can be done with enough of an activist push. So why don’t the extremists push for it? Instead of rounding up and having in jail tens…you’d have one. And that jail time could be paid for as part of the mandatory sentence. Those who come here illegally to work, if there is no one hiring them, why would they come?

    So one needs to ask…why won’t the extremists go after the real criminals in the immigration issue?

    • momo

      Flashy says:”So one needs to ask…why won’t the extremists go after the real criminals in the immigration issue?”

      You mean we should go after the feds, flashman?

      • Flashy

        Momo..why aren’t you yelling for going after the employers of illegal workers with the same zeal you have for going after the poor slob whose only ‘crime’ is wanting a job?

      • Vigilant

        “Momo..why aren’t you yelling for going after the employers of illegal workers with the same zeal you have for going after the poor slob whose only ‘crime’ is wanting a job?”

        Duh, what part of “You mean we should go after the feds, flashman?” don’t you understand? That’s just what momo said.

        When, oh when Flashy did you EVER see ANYONE on this site say that those employers should not be raided and prosecuted for such actions?

        Quite a circular argument you have going there, but you’re a bit too addled to see it. By your own words, if their only crime is wanting a job, then there would be no need for such raids, would there? But employers are subjected to prosecution precisely BECAUSE they hire those who have CLEARLY broken Federal immigration law.

        What part of the term “ILLEGAL immigrant” do you have difficulty with?

      • Flashy

        “When, oh when Flashy did you EVER see ANYONE on this site say that those employers should not be raided and prosecuted for such actions?” <— Vig

        When has anyone called for that..other than the Moderates and progressives posting here? You ? i think you have. But I cannot think of any other poster who is not a Moderate/progressive on this site.

    • Vigilant

      Flashy says, “Chip…why are you against the working man?”

      The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

      How guilty thou art, Flashy.

      • Flashy

        Vig….can you tell me what in Chip’s article is pro working man? Other than somehow thinking whining anti union claptrap is pro working man?

        Now…if Chip or you would argue that the AFL-CIO is nothing more than just another corporate entity…I’d not argue. I agree with that premise. Just as Big Corporations create an oligarchy snuffing competition, so does Big Labor. It stifles the impact and power of the smaller guys. Just as concentration of money has created To Big To fail and the market place pricing being captive to the decisions of a few.

        bigger is not better. but just as we need small and mid sized business to be healthy…so to we need small to mid sized unions to be just as healthy and free to make an impact.

        A corporation is a number of individuals joining their capital (money). A union is a number of individuals joining their capital (labor). Why be against one but not the other? I see no reason for that. i do see reason and validity saying too big of either is unhealthy for economic well being.

        but that’s not what Chip is saying…

      • Vigilant

        “Vig….can you tell me what in Chip’s article is pro working man?”

        You bet I can…the whole shooting match!

        “Pro working man” and “anti union” are two RADICALLY different things. And if you are so ignorant of history as to deny that the organized labor movement came out of communism, then we have no basis for discussion.

        • tony newbill

          Actually the Planks of Communism include cronyism of the economic system that leads to more and more fascist private Industry and Government colluding together that was the foundation of what The Labor movement evolved out of due to a tug of war between the rowing pains of a Government private industry caught in the middle of Profitability and Government politicking for support from those who are losing more and more purchasing power as their incomes shrink due to a inflationary effect being caused by the 2 headed monster of Governments collusion with Industry is what born the Labor Movement .
          This is happening again since the 2008 bailouts . And we are not expanding supply so inflation s growing .
          Then you have these Fascists events taking place that Government can be seen as enabling this event because it fuels the political Vise that can be used to rally support … This is the way the 2 headed Monster of Fascism works and eventually leads to Communism …. a complete takeover of industry , property and all for a simple solution to all this conflict . Only thing is the lack of adequate supply follows this trend to the point that genocide has always been the remedy for supply shortages in past historic times like this . Couple that with the way we hear and see the Elite warning of Overpopulation in the world and the similarities seem to suggest we are about to see history come back and repeat itself …..

        • tony newbill

          See how we are in a time of Fascism that will lead us to Communism as the solution to this wrong doing that Government is allowing to happen ???

          America’s Foreclosure Wars, The US Federal And State Governments Conspiring With Criminal Organiztions To Seize Private Property

          http://mattweidnerlaw.com/blog/2013/02/americas-foreclosure-wars-the-us-federal-and-state-governments-conspiring-with-criminal-organiztions-to-seize-private-property/

      • Vigilant

        Revision: I meant to say, “Pro working man” and “pro union” are two RADICALLY different things.”

      • Flashy

        ” And if you are so ignorant of history as to deny that the organized labor movement came out of communism,” <– Vig

        vig…I won't deny it. The Right to unionize saved this country from a huge disruption over that issue. Marx was right as to the revolution and what would cause it. What he got wrong was that unions would be allowed and give labor a seat at the table. I would proffer that unions saved us from the revolution Marx predicted (whether it would have succeeded or not is a different question). Organized labor did not come out of communism…it was the force that was the major reason communism never had a strong base in the US.

        How's that for breakfast to chew on ..

        • tony newbill

          Flashy the Unions that grew in the War torn areas of Germany before the takeover by Hitler were tools of the march to Communism and the beginning of the Utopian Engineering of Society in that region , and that INCLUDED GENOCIDE , and considering the way the elite are talking about Overpopulation and supply shortages you should be worried that this path we are on be completed !!!!!

          Move evidence of the Path to Communism as this leads to more and more labor Movements during the evolution of Fascism .

          Consumer Spending in U.S. Climbs Even as Taxes Hurt Incomes

          http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-01/consumer-spending-in-u-s-climbs-even-as-taxes-hurt-incomes.html

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        THE WINNERS WRITE HISTORY……..TEMPORARILY!!!!

        But some people are still buying the BS. “Eternal vigilance” was simply too high a
        bar…….Of course, they don’t actually teach “history” in too many places…….you have
        to seek it out……….

        So, where did communism come from? It came from the exploitation of labor.
        After the defeat of the previous agrarian and slave based economy, the rise
        of the modern industrialized plutocrat began in earnest…..along
        with the joys of intermediate free market capitalism, and the beginnings of
        government corruption to suppress the organized labor movement……

        To conquer, first divide……and organizing victims is difficult, as the plutocrats
        monopolized various sectors of the economy, and various geographic differences,
        fears, etc. Each industry faced it’s own challenges, while plutocrats employed, private armies, state militias and federal troops, to suppress attempts to organize…….

        The names of these plutocrats are familiar to all, Carnegie, Astor, Morgan,
        Rockerfeller, DuPont, etc. and while populist movements, had some success with
        the Sherman Anti-Trust Act…….the Plutocrats managed to keep the labor
        at bay………with the socialist/communist boogie man, coming into play
        with the advent of WWI. Labor was still divided, including a further division
        between skilled and unskilled, in addition to the previous “divisions”.

        But they made a serious mistake, having successfully, imposed the “gold
        standard”, they managed to crash the entire game in 1929…….and all the cries
        of socialist/communist failed to impress “the victims”, they were divided no longer,
        and the Plutocrats were forced to disperse their wealth, by establishing,
        foundations and trusts, to their heirs, and the Gilded age ended……so
        much so that it was politically suicidal, to oppose “labor” by 1945, and the
        rise of the “middle class” began.

        Unfortunately, there had been a slight miscalculation and one industry, emerged
        intact……the oil industry, due to various tax breaks and loopholes, they were
        able to accumulate wealth, much as before…….and the Cold War, provided the
        cover, to re-introduce, the “boogie man”……..which combined with the
        military industrial complex, the Plutocrats began their “second coming”,
        this time using “corporations”……..and WAR ( and its threat ), to erase
        the gains labor had achieved…..so that by 1980 they were back on course,
        but this time, was not only industrial dominance, but financial dominance as
        well………..which they achieved in 1999, with the repeal of Glass Steagle.

        Neither governments nor central banks have any control at all, and the game
        is the same, exploit EVERYTHING…….and still the “victims” remain blind.

        “He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past,
        controls the future.”

        You might want to actually learn about the PAST while you still HAVE
        a future……..

    • Don 2

      Why won’t the extremists go after the real criminals in the immigration issue?

      I guess you’ll just have to ask that extremist illegal immigrant occupying the White House.

    • speedle

      Flashy asks, “Now, a person becoming politically active is wrong just why?”

      I’ll tell you why Flashy. When the political party in power manipulates the voting rules in order to perpetuate its own control and power, that is criminal corruption of power. That is the hallmark of the Chicago Gangsters now running this country. “Paying” people for votes is as old as the democratic party itself. They have historically done it with unions, with poor blacks, poor whites and anyone else they could buy off for the price of a case of beer.

      The conservative position is not about depriving the working man. It is about stopping political corruption. People like you seem to turn the other way (or abide) just about any sorry trick Obama uses in his quest to further his power. You never admit you are wrong even if intellectually you know that you are. It seems that in your world the end always justifies the means. Forward

    • TML

      I think you bring up a valid point in regards to employers who hire illegal aliens, yet, I’m thinking that might actually make the problem worse with the illegals who are already here. It seems unrealistic to think that they would all ‘go back home’ if they couldn’t find work, and instead, be taking even further government assistance and hand-outs. You claim that cracking down on the people who actually came here illegally is cracking down on the poor man who just wants a job, but wouldn’t what you propose do the same thing? It isn’t really the working man that you seem concerned about, or see the situation in the big picture of your country, but rather, “Wood Company undercutting Flashy in pricing.”

      The proposal to make all illegal aliens citizens seems more like a reward for breaking the law as much as any employer breaks the law by hiring them. On principle alone I would be against such proposals.

      Flashy says, “Now, a person becoming politically active is wrong just why? If the GOP had a platform which was favorable to one’s political viewpoints, seems to reason that party would pick up supporters”

      The party that holds unfavorable positions enough to just hand out a reward of citizenship to those who came here illegally would gain those people insensibly as supporters whether their position was favorable to the country as a whole or not.

      The only real answers is to crack down on those employers who hire illegal aliens, offer no government services for illegals, bring illegals into custody and deport them, heighten security at the borders – not with walls or fences (Texas has been fairly effective with simple wildlife camera at $300 a pop), and end the drug war which is killing the Mexican economy in order to help them become more prosperous and reduce even the need for illegals to seek out America or a different life outside their own home.

    • Walt

      Yes Flashy, I agree with you on your point about employers who hire criminal invaders. They are the ones who are undermining the country’s future for their own greedy profits.
      These folks are the scum of the earth in my book, and pathetic shallow thinkers. I have more respect for a prostitute who sells her own body for gain, than for these whores who sell out their own country and it’s future well being for a few dollars.

      We are a nation of laws and those who violate our laws, whether foreign or domestic, are criminals and should be harshly punished. In addition, those in the political arena who are accomplices in preventing the enforcement of our laws are betraying our values, our nation and the future well being of tens of millions of Americans yet unborn. There is no other word to describe folks who behave in this manner, other than traitors.

    • Frank Kahn

      Moderate progressive? not sure what that is.

      You make a good argument for prosecuting the government. Everything else is pure hog wash.

      First you get the cause and effect reversed. If there were no illegal immigrants, there would be none to illegally hire. You bash us for wanting tighter control of border entry? What kind of shortsighted insanity is that?

      You also make a statement that seems to forward the idea that wanting a job is the only reason they come here. I dont know how many, of the millions of illegal aliens, you have interviewed to come up with this sweeping statement, but I am 100% certain it is wrong.

      I dont know the procedure or cost of applying for a visitor, student or work visa in this country. I do know that it is what must be done to be here legally. If they cant or more importantly if they wont go through the proper channels, then they should be deported.

      Some of these illegals are, as you described, just looking for a job and a better way of life. However, there are many other reasons for their entry to our country. Some are drug runners, thugs, thieves and murders. Many come here for the benefits, things like welfare and free education. Many are here to scam the tax system, sending billions of unearned tax credits off to Mexico. All of these should be imprisoned and / or deported.

      Should employers, who hire undocumented (illegal) aliens, be punished? Of course they should, but if we eliminate the real problem (illegal border crossings) then there would be no possibility of them committing the crime.

      And, on the subject of political affiliation, it is not an intelligent argument, that they almost all become democrats because the republican party is deficient. The truth is that they become democrats because the democrats encourage illegal immigration. By keeping the democrats in power they can make sure their other criminal family and neighbors can get favoritism and citizenship without going through the normal channels. And, they are criminals, the term ILLEGAL ALIENS means they broke the law.

      If you are so much in favor of these poor Mexicans, that invade our country indiscriminately, then you should use your money to sponsor them, help them get their immigration papers before coming here.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank’s OPINIONS make somewhat better sense today, and, since he’s not peddling that “bad science” to us, I will let him slide with this. I DO think it’s ironic that Frank is so hot to build WALLS as a first step—–kind of like that wall he has built around his brain?

        • Frank Kahn

          Still being delusional? I did not advocate, or even mention, building walls to keep the Illegal immigrants out. The fences, that were built, had no discernible effects on the number crossing our borders. Most physical barriers would also have little effect. The reason for their desire to leave Mexico is what must be addressed.

          How to do this, I dont know, but they need a better standard of living, less government corruption and an end to the violence of the drug cartels. If their country was a better place to live, there would be very few who would seek a better life here.

          And, Mr. RBT, that is a psychological assessment, are you going to rant on me for it? Would you classify psychology as a science?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Frank demonstrates again for us another “gap” in his understanding of the English language. Frank has a very difficult time dealing with “metaphors”, and interprets “wall” too literally.

        Frank DOES make some sense when he says things like,.”The reason for their desire to leave Mexico is what must be addressed How to do this, I dont (sic) know, but they need a better standard of living, less government corruption and an end to the violence of the drug cartels. If their country was a better place to live, there would be very few who would seek a better life here”. Can’t argue much with any of that, Frank. Of course, that’s a bit off the topic here, but stray good thoughts are always welcome.

        • Frank Kahn

          The portion of my post that you quoted proved my point. I did not suggest building a wall either physically or metaphorically.

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    I don’t know if you are aware of it but foreigners can join to our services and after they have completed four years of service get automatic citizenship. In my mind these people are mercenaries, noy bound by any moral code. Another plus for the department of offense, they don’t count as soldiers killed or wounded in battle.

    The big plus having illegals in the country was they are much needed cheap labor. Between minimum wages, union contracts and the like, America has literally priced itself out of the world market. These people fill that much needed void. Once they become citizens their cost is going to skyrocket, but Obama doesn’t care about that, it’s the votes that count. Also, when he declares martial law, they will be soldiers in his army against God fearing, constitution loving Americans. As he is dividing America, he’s building a “new” America, inhabited by people that are anything but Americans. Suggestion. Get your hands on a copy of the 1957 John Franklin Letters. It was the instuction manual for the Minute Man organization.

    • Flashy

      “In my mind these people are mercenaries, noy bound by any moral code.” <—CA
      So those who served in our past wars, fighting for freedom and the defeat of the bad guys…those also were mercs in your eyes? Same with the volunteers in the Spanish Civil War in the 30's? the Flying Tigers in China? The Irish immigrant in the Civil War? and on and on… so there is no such thing as fighting for a Cause ?

      "America has literally priced itself out of the world market." <— CA i guess that's why we sell everywhere in the world.then eh? Why we have a workforce which is so highly trained and educated, only a high school degree is a menial career job guarantee. Why Caterpillar, etc is so badly off. why Starbucks has recently re-up'd orders to buy machines from American companies (higher quality and competitive priced). And on and on.

      CA..have you asked your god if your callings for discrimination, slave labor, etc are the path to salvation?

      you never did answer the one question…what makes your views and insistence on your religion being the one everyone must follow to be 'correct' in life…what makes those any different from the views and callings of the Afghan Taliban? Other than they insist on their god and their religious laws versus you insisting on your god and your religious laws…what is the difference? Only religion?

      • cawmun cents

        Never thought it would be like me….

        But I have to agree with flashman on at least half of the points here in this post.
        Anyone who serves in our military is due his citizenship with no other hoops to jump through,they have served our nation and due all the entitlements therein.

        But that segues into my second point.Which Flashman has my answer to from a previous post.
        Its not about what I do as a Christian,it is about what God did for me,by providing His Son as a perfect sacrifice for my iniquities.

        The diety of Muslims which unlike what you are told is not the same as my God,has told everyone in his religious service that they must be good enough to get into heavea by their own effort.This means they can use their diety as an excuse to “martyr” themselves by whatever means are necessary to do such a thing.

        Whereas being a Christian means that Christ was my “martyr” and did the work for me.

        There are religious zealots in both Chistianity and Islam,that may or may not follow the teachings of their prospective beliefs.

        But the most important thing to understand is that you cannot go to heaven by working at it by your own effort and claim to be a Christian.
        That is why it is separate from all other religions,not by my effort but by His.

        This may also be the reason why you dont see Christians strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up bystanders.

        Cheers!
        -CC.

      • Walt

        Flashy says:

        “Same with the volunteers in the Spanish Civil War in the 30′s?”

        Comparing the communist “volunteers” of the Lincoln Brigade, that were sent to Spain by the leftist Jewish bankers of New York, to the Flying Tigers or the Irish immigrants of the Civil War is such a rediculous comment.

        It shows your ignorance of history and lack of knowledge of who was behind the effort to convert Spain from a Christian, God fearing nation, into another enclave of atheistic bolshevism, supported and financed by Stalin.

        These so-called volunteers were “financed”. That makes them mercenaries in every true sense of the word. They were the “bad guys”! They were sent to Spain to support a government that was responsible for the murder of over 8,000 Catholic priests and nuns, much like what happened in Mexico during the 1920′s. They were there to support land confiscations, nationalization of Spain’s private industries. In short, they were there to help impose a socialist/communist state on Spain and destroy the culture and traditions of the country. That in my book makes them evil.

        In fact, it’s that same mentality that is again working it’s “social justice miracle” today in our country. Another fresh bunch of socialist/communists hell bent on destroying the culture and traditions of this great nation and replace it with, gun control, abortion on demand, an entitlement mentality, and their version of a 21st century “social justice” nanny state.

        However, much like it happened in 1930′s Spain, there will be a reckoning, and apparently you are likely to be on the wrong side of the reckoning Flashy.

        Know your facts before you spout off ignorant comments.

        • tony newbill

          Walts right !!! , The need to get God out of the Minds of the faithful is to build a majority that will take the order to round up for Genocide , thats what went on back in those times Walt is talking about !!!!!!

          And when you have the elite talking about Overpopulation and supply shortages in the world today on a Grand world scale like they are , this should give us great pause to consider the times we are in ……

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        The last war we fought that was defensive was the war of 1812. You can’t count the civil war.

      • Flashy

        Walt….perhaps you should read yur history texts. Just to verify that i was not in error when citing the American volunteers in the Spanish Civil War as fighting for a Cause and if they would be called mercenaries, citing as well the Irish in the Civil War, the Flying Tigers etc. I went through a few books in my library to refresh my memory.

        Hemingway, his autobiography. Ever read it? He was there. I doubt you’d call ol’ Ernie a commie would you? His writings are chock full of mistrusting the Reds..though his politics were an amorphous mix of liberalism and individualism. Hemingway wrote of the misfortune post WWII when mcCarthyism ran rampant, and those who served in Spain were all lumped into the Lincoln Brigade, when…in fact…only a minority of the Brigade itself was sympathetic to communism and the majority of American volunteers served throughout the forces of the republic, many in Canadian outfits.

        I looked up the American volunteer effort in the Encyclopedia Britannica, 1954 ed. Sitting right there third and fourth shelf down in the bookcase. Can’t get much “unrevisioned’ than that eh? Guess what? It pretty much mirrors Hemingway.

        What is interesting is what i found in the Encyclopedia Americana 1956 ed., meaning it was researched and brought together during the height of MCarthyism. This edition contradicts Hemingway and the earlier published volumes of the Britannica and asserts ‘most’ of the Lincoln brigade were commies or sympathizers.

        given that, you or i are correct given what source. What was indeed more interesting was the different tone used in the two sets of encyclopedia’s. one being gathered before McCarthyism, the other compiled as the red scare reached its ugly heights.

      • Walt

        Listen Flashy,

        I have studied the Spanish Civil War extensively. I know the history intimately and have visited Spain several times, spoken to people who experienced the horror of the leftistclass warfare and their violent efforts to purge Spain of the “rich” and the “religious parasites”, as the Catholic Church was referred to by them. I don’t research Encyclopedia Britannica to get my facts.

        I suggest you read the following book to get another perspective: “The Last Crusade”, which is available through Amazon. It’s a real eye opener to what happened in Spain from 1931 to 1939, when Franco finally defeated the communists and their financial and military supporter, Stalin.

        In fact, 10,000 of Stalin’s International Brigade were Jews. More than one-third of the Jewish volunteers were communist American Jews who called themselves the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

        A communist Jewish contingent from Poland calling itself the Naftali-Botwin Jewish Company was formed especially for the Spanish Civil War. A subdivision of the Naftali-Botwin Jewish Company was formed called The Dombrowski Brigade.

        Here are examples of the atrocities committed by the Communist Jews in Spain:

        In Barcelona on July 17 1936, a Jewish group from Stalin’s International Brigade called at the Dominican Convent in Barcelona. The Jewish leader informed the Mother Superior that because of fear of mob violence he had orders to take the nuns to a place of safety.
        The soldiers took the unsuspecting nuns to the suburbs and shot them all in cold blood. Afterwards, the leader remarked, “We needed their building. We didn’t want to mess it up before we occupied it.”

        In Barcelona in 1937, the Naftali-Botwin Jewish Company tortured and mocked a priest before they finally hung his dismembered body from a statue of the Virgin Mary.
        A second priest was transfixed to a made-up crucifix and hung on it while he was still living.

        In Huelva Spain in 1938, the mayor of the city turned over the civil administration to Stalin’s International Brigade. Their first act was to torture and shoot all the priests of the city. The nuns of Huelva were stripped naked and driven into the streets to provide sport for the Jewish Communists. Then they were all shot in cold blood.

        References:
        “70 Years of the Communist Revolution, Communist Atrocities In Spain”, Arthur Byrant;
        “Catholic Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War”, Justo Perez de Urbel

        What happened in Spain, where the leftist were “democratically elected” by a coalition of anarchist, socialists, Marxist and Communists, and how they proceeded to devastate Spain’s culture and traditions for years was an example of may be happening today, where our current government was also “democratically elected” by a coalition of socialists, anarchists, gays, Marxists, communists, and feminists. While they have yet to drag priests and nuns out into the street and shoot them, like they did in Spain, they certainly are waging a war on religious values, cultures and traditions. They are treading carefully so as not to alarm the general population in any drastic way; however, their goals are the same, to “tranform America” from a free Republic into a Socialist Utopian secular government of dependent useful idiots.

        While ‘ol Ernie may not have been a card carrying member of the Communist Internationale, he was definitely very sympathetic to their goals to turn Spain into another bastion of communism in western Europe.

  • http://www.booksbyoliver. OhioRiver

    Making a major alteration to our county by 10%, on one day, will cause disruption and only encourage millions of others to sneak into the country. TWhat the American unions are doing is taking jobs away from Americans and giving those jobs to foreigners. This is just wrong.

    • mark

      Exactly and if this trend continues, Arizona will be a blue state in 2016 and Texas will be a blue state by 2020. This is why I support Obama’s polic. And this is why all the major Republicans are also coming on board supporting amnesty including Rubio. As John McCain said: “Elections, elections, elections.” Illegal immigration can never be stopped due to the inherent greed of the capitalist system – its never ending search for cheaper and cheaper labor and higher and higher profits. You want to stop illegal immigration? Abolish capitalism! And you know that is not going to happen. Too many businesses are making lots of money off cheap immigrant labor, that is why it will continue. That is why the drive to break unions will continue. As Big Daddy Capital says to illegal immigrants everyday just like Bob Barker on the Price is Right: “Come on down!” And the money keeps flowing while the suckers pay the tax costs in education, health care, and police/incarceration costs. It’s a capitalist wet dream. No wonder they all love it on Wall Street!

      • tony newbill

        The Only way all this works and Wall Street continue to work is with the Federal Reserve doing what its doing buying bonds in the treasury markets and taking the red assets off the books at the Big banks with a Unlimited Easing policy , and just how long do you think this Game of Musical Chairs will Last before the rest of the worlds suppliers say to heck with the US Dollar because the effects of this printing is causing these foreign suppliers higher costs to their citizens too ????? Japan is Now on a Unlimited Printing policy because of this Federal Reserve Policy thats drove the cost of japans economy up out of the reach of the middle class there .
        All Obama has as a Power source to stay relevant is to Divide the people in Race , Creed , Religion , economically , gender , health , and every other way possible to stay competitive , but this will soon consolidate as these factions are forced to combine into some kind of class of resistance against the Industry that controls the resources and the Governments that control the military might . This is starting to look like a International event taking place within the societies around the world and once this erupts into a International labor Movement that reaches across the world and colludes together against the World Governments you can see how this will Lead to Governments coming together against their own societies , thus ushering the One World Order !!!!!
        See what this annalist is saying about Japan , http://investmentwatchblog.com/get-far-away-from-usa-its-collapse-will-be-messy-globally-japan-will-be-the-first-one-to-fall-this-is-the-most-dangerous-time-in-the-human-history-we-are-heading-toward-a-historic-global-f/

      • tony newbill

        See what Soros is doing it tells you what is coming , the Yen and Dollar being the top highest valued currencies in the world currency markets are signalling their are on a race to see who is going to POP FIRST !!!!!!!!!

        Soros Said to Make $1 Billion Since November on Yen Bet
        http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-14/soros-said-to-make-1-billion-since-november-on-yen-bet.html

      • tony newbill

        And when the Dollar Yen race reaches the Popping stage then this will be the New World trade currency while the rest of the world is in Conflict and chaos and Nationalizing their economies because China and Russia control the majority of the production capacity and energy resources at this point OPEC will side with these 2 power houses as the USA will be Defenseless due to a Lack of supply to power the Military might …. UGLY is COMING !!!!!! http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/petrogold-are-russia-and-china-hoarding-gold-because-they-plan-to-kill-

      • Brad in TX

        due you are way drunk on the Kool Aide. You are a traitor and are a very dangerous enemy of this country

        • tony newbill

          This Immigration Amnesty policy will allow for this to infiltrate the USA in the darkness of this Policy .
          What did Hilary and Rahm say , Never let s crisis go to waste ? its Obvious they created this crisis , all of the crisis’s we face today are because of the Overall Plan to effectively change the economic system seeing it as a collapse that could not be avoided , from the unleashing of hyper inflation in the energy areas of the world along with oppressing innovation to denigrating national sovereignty with a failed trade Policy that has now pitted Labor against each other across the world .

          All to take control of supply away from the private sector and then this control be the control over the rate of consumption and thus population control .

          Given the Appalling Information Provided Between these Revealing Pages, Can You Decide: Should President Obama Be Impeached?

          The simple answer is yes because the insight you are about to reap allows you to open your eyes and quickly realize how he…

          Knowingly Allowed Illegal Trespassing of Terrorists Onto American Soil

          http://dailywitness.com/benghazi-report/

      • TML

        Mark says, “….You want to stop illegal immigration? Abolish capitalism!”

        LoL… yeah, you know, because that’s exactly why the Mexicans come here, because Capitalism is the problem, hah!

        And your claims of Texas becoming a “blue” state are nonsensical. Texas has a long history of having Democratic governors if that’s what you mean by “blue”. The difference is that the political spectrum has made social liberalism the norm, whereas in Texas you find more classical liberals who are more conservative than most Republicans of other states (probably why Texas is considered a “red” state today). The incoherent left/right paradigm continues.

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      The problem is, between the ridiculous minimum wage, union costs and all the other bennies that businesses have to pay, we’ve priced ourselves out of the world market. The politicians come to their constituents with bags of goodies and the people vote for them. Fools! Whose going to pay for the goodies? We are. The only source of money to the government is what’s created off the sweat of the working mans brow. No business ever paid one dime in taxes, minumum wage, union dues, whatever. It’s all in the price of what we buy. We pay it.

  • ibcamn

    Everyone seems to miss the point,Obama and Trumka have literally broke the law(knowingly)and think it’s fine,ignore what other people are saying just keep listening to what i tell you!!it’s right there,Obama broke the law(again)and yet this man is allowed to stay in the white house!!WTF!!how can two people keep breaking the law and keep getting away with it??!fire(vote)Trumka and impeach Obama!this would solve a great deal,but,then you have Biden to deal with…lesser of two evils,what?this mess has been allowed to keep snowballing to a point where no one is going to be able to go down the latter fast enough to get to a leader who is a leader,not a follower and not a crook!!the immigration deal is all about,we bought your seat in the white house,no do what you promised!!Obama only won in states that you didn’t need to show your ID to cast a vote!well you don’t need to be einstein to figure it out!and now what about the voter fraud?the workers for the gov’t at voter stations got caught voting up to five times(admitted they voted for Obama)voter fraud!!!by gov’t workers,and it’s not the first time!it keeps coming up in these states,same states Obama won in!this leads to the immigrants that want to work and be citizens of the US,Trumka says vote Obama as much as you can(or a form of)get it??!!it’s all connected,and no one gives a sheet!!what is wrong with you people!WAKE THE F#@* UP!!

    • TheTruthHurts
      • Average Joe

        Exellent piece, thanks!

        AJ

      • Old Henry

        Ditto!

    • JUKEBOX

      Obama and his followers are reinforcing his unlawful acts with his OFA PAC (Obama f###ing America), which gives access to the WH 4 times a year for a $500,000 donation.

  • callit

    This BIG push to create another amnesty when every time a vote from the citizenry (legal)
    has voted it down,and allways will,then have the very government we elected based on their promise to uphold the laws and the demands of their own constituents NO MORE
    AMNESTY’S in any form, that should be an impeachable violation of their duties. What
    part of illegal can/do that they cannot/do not understand only proves the saying, the
    politition will do ANYTHING,including the very selling of his nation for a vote to stay in
    his cushy position i.e.complete lack of moral obligations related to their sworn duty to
    place themselves above their country!

    The unmitigated push by this government to use the numbers of ILLEGALS presently in
    our country at a time that we have to borrow from every nation to pay for a war,never forgetting the loss of our brave soldiers,blowin up,then rebuilding that country,while their own country is falling apart is totally ungodly. Why is it that we,the U.S.citizen,has to allways take responsibility for a country whose dictatorship willnot take care of their own people then have our own goverment/dictators shove this down our throats,could it poss
    ibly be tied to the distruction of the middle class or cheap labor for BIG business to funnel back into their own coffers for re-election by outspending an honest candidate,never
    forgettng the other avenue of monies added by BIG bussiness,the lobbyist. The very fact
    that we allow this pompous,uncaring group of elected/sworn to protect this country,to watch them tear down,manipulate,destroy our country,in plain view absolutely,positively
    disgust me to my very soul. The one and only power that is,for now in our hands is to
    VOTE these self serving,not ever to be trusted on their word out of office,another words
    VOTE THE BUMS OUT. To accomplish this act please let us come TOGETHER,do not believe what they have us doing,eating out of the palm of their hands,that one party is in any way for the country than the other,thus splitting us up,to fight this now enlarging dictateorship. Lest you forget that when one party is the good guy,the other is the bad guy and the outcome is further in the direction of American people suffer while the gov
    ernment gets the benifit of more power,more complete waste of monies for their own benifits,PORK built into every bill passed for the sole purpose of AGAIN re-election,personal gain,let us, the people working together save our country and unite,let
    us start putting our belief in others rather than the proven,not to be trusted people in
    charge of our country while we still can.

  • JUKEBOX

    Anybody who doesn’t believe President Scarecrow is trying to be an IMPERIAL president, along with his appointed myrmidons, is ignoring all of the unlawful acts being committed by his administration. Eric Holder backs up this claim when he said that he has NO respect for members of Congress who voted to cite him for violations of the law with his “Fast & Furious” program.

    • Old Henry

      JUKEBOX:

      Where would we be if we had been cited for contempt of congress? The criminal HOlder is still in office busily breaking the law, not upholding it, whenever he gets the chance.

      Congresstruly is a bunch of speneless weasels. They began to show some promise with the contempt charge, but it was all smoke and mirrors. Hollow.

  • Charlie R

    IT NOT JUST THE UNIONS
    Any one that expects the government (thats Democrats and Republicans) to “fix” immigration as it was ( i.e. tightening entry/ securing borders) is not understanding primal governmental interests. That being the Government benefits from massive unrestricted, immigration. How?
    1: More taxes/ revenue from an increasing population (thats necessary to keep the ponzi scheme alive and “kicks the deficit can down the road)
    2; Democrats aren’t interested in fixing immigration because they benefit from new voters that lean heavily as democratic voters and obviously join unions too thus making unions “the 4th branch of government” .
    3: Republicans, the business side, sees Immigrants and the cheap labor and we are fed the BS that immigrants “take the jobs American citizens do not want. And that with a fictitious 8+ % unemployment rate.
    4; Why should any law abiding immigrants “go thru channels” when democrat politicians will certainly relax immigration requirements if not simply open the borders. (Do you know the politician who lead the effort to remove “immigration quotas”…. the one and only … Ted Kennedy …. Did you know that prior to Kennedy, US immigration monitored who could even come to this country with a that quota system?
    …. wonder why America is what it is?

    So, the rest of us, the self sufficient, non-victimized are non-entities. We are fixtures in the eyers of our representatives because we are not in need of governmental or political support. That why the TEA PARTY (Taxed Enough Already) can not get the traction and support we (Tax Payers) would expect.

    Does anyone remember when citizenship meant something? Or a time when citizenship had to be earned? Today, citizenship is becoming a liability because it traps you to the will of the government. As Examples: 1)The misnomered “Affordable Health Care Act” better known as Obamacare, which is anything but affordable and will be fully government controlled and as socialistic as anything that existed in the Soviet Union, 2) then, add confiscatory taxes to the mix and we are all financial slaves to the government.

    Now ask yourself …. Who are the people that buy into and let government demagoguery rule?

  • Karolyn

    Anybody notice fewer comments being made these days? Is this just because DaveH is gone or is it because people are getting tired of hearing the same old thing day after day?

    • JUKEBOX

      You are so right Karolyn, we are hearing the same old scare mantra from President Scarecrow many times every day, and I am sick of it!

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        TERROR: a physical or psychological act, sometimes violent in nature, committed to gain or maintain submissiom. Everything that Obama and company do or say has a terror ring to it. He has no moral argument to support his positions. The socialists are amoral. They function the sphere of morality

    • S.C.Murf

      And we are hearing the same old crap out of you K so why don’t you take a vacation and give all of us a break?

      up the hill
      airborne

    • Right Brain Thinker

      I’ve noticed it too, Karolyn. I’ve been busy with “real life” lately and haven’t been spending as much time on PLD myself—-maybe that’s true of others. I think part of it is that the subject matter of many of the threads is not as “inflammatory” (like guns), or if it is, we have all beaten ourselves to death over the past few weeks and are just tired—-winter doldrums kind of thing.

      I’ve only looked at two of the threads today—this one and the “fake” Marines one. I’m really surprised that the USMC one has only garnered 6 replies—-there are more old Marines visiting PLD than that—-maybe they looked at it and said “why bother”—-I only commented because I had spent several minutes watching the video of the “fake” Marines and spending a couple more to reply was no big deal. And thbinking about marching made me remember the story of the “marching messmen”, and you know how i like to share my stories.

      And do you miss DaveH the way I do? He was one of a kind, although APN shows some potential as a replacement—-at least APN is quite a bit less annoying than DaveH. DaveH was getting way out of hand near the end.

      • Old Henry

        Does anyone know what happened to DaveH? Or, did he simply stop “showing up for work”?

    • Right Brain Thinker

      PS, Karolyn

      Another reason people may be staying away is that they are getting tired of hearing the flood of the “same old crap” that comes from fools like Smurfy. When the “barnyard” is so littered with horsepucky droppings that you can’t find a “clean” place to put a foot down, you tend to avoid the barnyard.

      Look up hill in the dictionary
      get a woman to help you find one
      have her point you “up” the hill
      try to go up
      keep tripping over your ignorance and falling down
      keep trying to go up the hill and falling
      endlessly repeat the last three steps

      airborne (LOL)

    • mark

      Dear Karolyn,

      What did happen to DaveH? I kind of miss him even if most of the time all he ever did was paste all those links to the Von Mises Austrian Economics School guys. You are right, he was a lot more of a gentleman compared to much of the crazed, racist commentary you get here of late.

      Regards, mark

    • Newspooner

      yes,
      Whatever happened to DaveH ? He did a wonderful job of educating readers here. Do you know what happened?

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        He got his head handed to him by ME……

        and regardless of what “links” he posted, there was no education to be had
        there…….

        There is no education to be had HERE….by any of the “mushroom feeders”, let alone the “mushrooms”……..and certainly not from a von mises shill, hyping the “gold standard”?

        Economics Unmasked
        Econned
        Extreme Money
        Power, Inc.
        Lords of Finance
        The Great Divergence

        When you have read those get back to me……..

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Forgot: Debt The First 5000 Years

        That way, you and Wood Chip, can enlighten yourselves on topics like, money,
        credit, debt, usury, even barter…….although the SHOCK might be too much
        for you……….minimal complexity does tend to overwhelm the “simple minded”.

        Ole DavidH was “simple minded”……his main concern seemed to be “other peoples
        hands in his pockets”………so even when he was shown how to prevent it and
        that he didn’t have to wait for Ron Paul to save him, he just kept right on.

        Even when he was shown that the Gold Standard, Benjamin Strong ( N.Y. Fed )
        and other central banker’s ( Great Britain, France and Germany ) and WALL ST.
        caused the 29 Crash and the Great Depression, he just kept right on, repeating
        the LIE and/or the STUPIDITY…….

        Ole DavidH didn’t know much about anything……..so he would use his
        standard ad hominem attack…..followed by a von mises link…..then I would
        follow him, with book excerpts and links…..and SILENCE would ensue…..

        Then he would be back the next day….and start again

        This is much better…….but if you aspire to take his place, the world
        of von mises awaits………..and so do I.

  • http://www.facebook.com/george.massu.1 George Massu

    Iam glad to see that there are some people who see what Obama really is i was really beginning to get worried that his propaganda was getting a hold on America …GOD BLESS

  • An Old Seabee

    Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.
    Mark Twain

    It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native criminal class except Congress.
    Mark Twain

    Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it.
    Mark Twain

    There is no distinctly American criminal class – except Congress.
    Mark Twain

    We have the best government that money can buy.
    Mark Twain

  • http://personalliberty Alondra

    “How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a NAUGHTY world” ~ William Shakespeare

    Today is ONE year as Andrew Breitbart was murdered by KKK (Korrupt Kriminal Klan) regime.

    • http://midcontent ridge runner

      Alondra, Karolwhin will have a ring tailed fit for calling Onumnutts teachers and close rump rangers for what they are The Moohamed was always raping as many females as he could get a hold of and then killed in some of the most sick ways. Also don’t try the demorat excuses of that was things were done BS. The trouble is the 7th century perverts still stay in the past, and still beleive females are lower than dog poo. The phycl saMoohamed wasone mental nut who married a widow for her money and the”married” several5-7 year old girls. Obozo is a live example of Islam perversion.

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        ridge runner, the self-proclaimed “prophet” muhammed is MURDERER, CHILD MOLESTER, PEDOPHILE, RAPIST, THIEF, BURGLAR, LIAR – islamist TERRORIST !!!

        The islamic TERRORISTS have perpetrated ALL crimes in history in the name of their Moon god allah and their FAKE PHONY “prophet” and their satanic religion of hate and terror.

        Here is what John Quincy Adams, the sixth President of the United States, an American diplomat said about islam & its PHONY “prophet”:

        “He [Muhammad] poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by DEGRADING THE CONDITION OF THE FEMALE SEX and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and EXTERMINATING WAR, AS A PART OF HIS RELIGION, AGAINST ALL THE REST OF MANKIND. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST; TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE (Capitals in original)…While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the FALSE prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can NEVER be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.” – John Quincy Adams

        Compare with the statement of the islamist Usurper who is illegally occupying the White House:

        “And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.” — Barack H. Obama, a speech at Cairo University in Cairo, June 4, 2009

        “The future MUST NOT belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.”– Barack H. Obama, addresses the U.N. General Assembly, September 25, 2012

        Enough said.

        “The direction in which EDUCATION starts a man will determine his future in life” – Plato

    • mark

      Mr Breitbart was overweight and out of shape with a legacy of heart disease in his family. He had suffered a heart attack several months before his death and he died from another one last year.. And most of what he said, not all but most, was exaggerated, showboating nonsense. He was more of a comedian and a performance artist than a serious political thinker. I am sorry he is dead, but his ideas were over the top and included heavily manipulated documentaries like Michael Moore (only rightist in character). He was unfortunately an embarassment to true conservatives. May he rest in peace.

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        What an alinsky diarrhea!
        LIBTARD mark says: “He had suffered a heart attack several months before his death.”

        But he was alive and very active. The “official” L.A. Coroner’s report was “heart failure”. But the FACTS DO NOT SUPPORT the report.
        Undeniable Facts:
        1. Andrew Breitbart promised that on March 1, 2012 he would release damning video evidence that would damage Barack Obama’s quest to be reelected. And what COINCIDENCE – on March 1, 2012, before the sun rose, Andrew died from the “heart failure”, according to the L.A, Coroner’s Office

        2. Another COINCIDENCE, Andrew Breitbart did call to Sheriff Joe Arpaio “4 to 5 hours before he (Andrew) died,” the day before that Sheriff Arpaio released the results of the first ever law enforcement investigation into the Kenyan’s birth certificate announcing it as a “FORGERY” (March 1, 2012)

        Watch YouTube Video: “Sheriff Joe Arpaio on Possibility of Andrew Breitbart Assassination”

        3. What COINCIDENCE. The same day Andrew planed to release the tape, which exposing the Kenyan CRIMINAL, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn discussion how to run the presidency.

        The tape revealed that “WHY racial division and class warfare are central to what HOPE & Change were sold us in 2008. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS1CacgMWIs

        4. WOW. One more COINCIDENCE. On April 21, 2012, the L.A. Coroner’s Office released its final autopsy report on Andrew Breitbart. That same day, April 21, 2012, Michael Cormier, a FORENSICS TECHNICIAN & CRIMINALIST at the same L.A. Coroner’s Office, who worked on the case of Andrew Breitbart, died SUDDENLY from suspected arsenic poisoning.

        “There are mysterious circumstances surrounding his death … Detectives are looking into the possibility that he was poisoned by arsenic,” police Lt. Alan Hamilton told the Los Angeles Times.

        5. According to a former CIA secretary testifying before a Congressional committee, the CIA has a SECRET WEAPON — a poisoned dart that can INDUCE A FATAL HEART ATTACK. The dart leaves a barely-detectable red dot on the victim’s skin, and dissolves in the body. The poison is UNDETECTABLE in autopsy.

        6. An eye-witness of Breitbart’s sudden collapse onto the ground in a street near his home said Breitbart’s face was bright red — a symptom UNUSUAL for heart attack victims, WHOSE FACES AND LIPS TYPICALLY TURN BLUE. Bright red skin, however, is symptomatic of CYANIDE POISONING.

        Of cause for the leftists ALL above are “mere” COINCIDENCES.

        How do you think Mark: Who benefited from the deaths of Breitbart and Cormier?

        What the FORENSICS TECHNICIAN & CRIMINALIST Michael Cormier could reveal that the Kriminal regime was so afraid of? The TRUE cause of the Andrew death?

        Who has the power and means to kill Breitbart and Cormier?

        We know the answer.

  • FreedomFighter

    “Your children’s children will live under Communism. You Americans are so gullible. No you won’t accept Communism outright; but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of Socialism until you will finally wake up and find that you already have Communism. We won’t have to fight you, we’ll so weaken your economy until you fall like ripe fruit into our hands.” -–Nikita Krushchev, 1959

    Hmm…Communist run unions….Hmm…

    Laus Deo
    Semper FI

    • http://personalliberty Alondra

      Our country entered into the 2013 with the same baggage: growing debt (like snow ball), big government (of parasites & communists), unemployment, taxation (more), wars and with the same lawless PERVERT and DEPRAVED IDIOTS.

      Watch the G. Edward Griffin interview with the Russian ex-KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov and listen carefully what he predicted (and warned Americans!!!) 27 years ago:

      (at 15:40) Yuri Bezmenov: “You have, literally, several years to live on UNLESS United States HAS TO WAKE UP. The TIME BOMB IS TICKING. Every second the DISASTER IS COMING CLOSER AND CLOSER … You have NOWHERE to defect to … This is the last country of FREEDOM and possibility.”

      G. Edward Griffin: “What are your recommendations to the American people?”

      Yuri Bezmenov: “There must be the strong national effort to EDUCATE PEOPLE in the real spirit of the national patriotism … Number two – to explain the REAL DANGER of the socialist, communist, WHATEVER WELFARE STATE – “BIG BROTHER”
      GOVERNMENT. If people will fail to the danger of that development, NOTHING ever will help the United States.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDDBZuheQxs

      “WHEN YOU EDUCATE A MAN, YOU LIBERATE A MAN.” – Dr. Benjamin Carson
      But DEMONcrats/Communists/Fascists do NOT need FREE-THINKERS. They need sheeple/slaves.

      “If a man neglects EDUCATION, he walks lame to the end of his life” ~ Plato, His Dialogue Timaeus

      • mark

        Yeah, you’re right Alondra. Whenever in doubt, always follow the advice of the KGB.

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        Yeah Mark, WHAT a shock. Your FRADULENT KKK did ignore Mr. Bezmenov advice. The Korrupt Kenyan Kriminal favored Stalin’s advice:

        “America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: Its PATRIOTISM, its MORALITY and its SPIRITUAL life. If we can UNDERMINE THESE THREE AREAS, America WILL COLLAPSE FROM WITHIN.” – Joseph Stalin

        “Education is a weapon, effect of which depends on who holds it and at who or what it is aimed.”– Joseph Stalin, Soviet Dictator

        Mark, nice try, but crawl back under your rock.

    • Old Henry

      And… a communist run White House.

    • nc

      FF, where is the cathedral of communism today? Krushschev’s Russia? Dead in the water! Like the threats of doom that reek here in conspiracy heaven! America is not dead!! America is not about to die! America is in a man made recession due to bad Republican policy! Nikita threatened to bury us and you knuckle dragging conservatives are predicting doom and both prophesies are full of s**t!
      See your age old conspiracies, the FEMA Camps, the Obama dictatorships and the communist control of unions if you must but don’t bother us until you have PROOF! YOU KNOW, THE STUFF THAT CONSTITUTIONALLY CORRECT TRIAL ARE MADE OF!!!

      • Mike in MI

        What sorta “CONSTITUTIONAL TRIAL”. nc? -
        With hairy reed in charge of the U. S. Senate? They wouldn’t charge him if they caught Rahm E. under the desk in the Offal ORIFICE wearing Michelle’s underwear filled with state secrets to pass to Morsi, Achmadinajihad and Kim Jong Un!!!
        Nasty Peelousi says democrats only want solutions. Yeah, right. The best solutions they come up with can be dipped out of the city settling ponds.

  • old hillbilly

    It’s past time to serve citizens first & stop paying corruption to break our laws & Constitution!

    <<<>>>>

  • old hillbilly

    <<<>>>

    • old hillbilly

      WTSJ YOU NAILED IT!!!! Imagine, all that degradation and plundering of our society!

      Citizens are paying (taxed, loss wages, loss wealth, etc) trillions of dollars they don’t have to destroy everything they ever could hope to have for generations! Obama hates our Constitution and country – he is but one of many evil warriors sent to destroy us.

      We have a written Constitution and laws. ACTIVELY make sure we elect legislators who will enforce them with vigor, and make sure especially harsh punishment is given any oath bound corrupted executive, legislative, or judicial officer. Breach of honor and trust should carry double or treble penalty!

  • old hillbilly

    It’s past time to serve citizens first & stop paying corruption to break our laws & Constitution!

    xxx Pass this on & add to it

    *Create 12 million jobs (US avg. $43.5K) = $522 billion; removes 12 million citizens from welfare & unemployment @ $20K = $240 billion; by deporting 12 million illegals who are on all types of welfare @ $20K = $240 billion… and we have $1 trillion more savings.

    Putting citizens to work by REMOVING ILLEGAL ALIENS (JOBS) adds $1+ trillion to the economy, enough to end Obama’s progressive defecit spending!

    Through all of the current deception, chaos, and hatemongering, not one legislator or the president has considered the real problems of illegal aliens in citizen jobs!cit spending!
    Through all of the current deception, chaos, and hatemongering, not one legislator or the president has considered the real problems of illegal aliens in citizen jobs! xxx

    • mark

      The illegals work though! Most of the young kids today would rather live with their parents and smoke the ganja. Or sleep on the couch at their buddy’s house and get up at the crack of noon to crack a Budweiser. But the Guatemalans and Mexicans show up at 5:30 in the morning rarin’ to go, hungry. They’ll climb 40 foot ladders with shingles on their backs, bend over and top onions all day in the blazin’ sun, pick apples for fourteen hours until they can’t lift another bushel. And for minimum wage or less. The legal citizens white kids would rather lounge around mom and dad’s and listen to hip hop and rap all day. They’re not climbing a 40 foot ladder with 80 pounds of ashphalt shingles on their back for minimum wage. They want a cushy job where they do practically do nothing and get $16 an hour for it. That’s why no one will hire them. Contractors prefer Guatamalans, Ecuadorans, and Mexicans who are eager, hungry, desperate to do any job for any wage. That is why they work, while the white kids snore under a blanket and stagger out of bed to roll another Doobie.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        That illegal aliens are only “doing work that Americans won’t” is the mantra that is constantly regurgitated by “ILLEGAL-IMMIGRATION-SUPPORTERS”. A mantra that is also parroted by the “IDIOTS” in Congress and the White House. What is rarely mentioned is that, the “ILLEGAL ALIENS” are artificially depressing compensation and
        that illegal aliens are the only ones who will do the work at such low wages. In fact, “ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION” distorts the law of supply and demand. Additionally, it is grossly hypocritical to want to raise the minimum wage on one hand while the other hand winks at “ILLEGAL ALIENS” working at far below prevailing wages…as a matter of fact, illegal aliens are not just picking lettuce and digging ditches any more; Dry-wallers, brick-layers, house framers, painters, roofers, carpet layers, plumbers, or electricians, a once decently compensated, middle class trade, is increasingly becoming the work for “ILLEGAL ALIENS” at far less than the free market rates. While “ILLEGAL ALIEN WORKERS” are only a small percentage of many of those job categories, their willingness to work at dramatically lower rates artificially drags down the compensation for “ALL” workers.

        If the poor and uneducated Americans can survive on welfare, why would they pick lettuce, dig ditches, clean toilets or wash dishes at minimum wage. But, if there are massive shortages of workers for such jobs, the law of supply and demand will come in to play and the compensation for those jobs will rise and will attract more workers. At some point, it will pay more than being on welfare and be attractive enough to turn off “Oprah”, thus addressing the labor shortage!

        There are also negative, side affects of “only doing the jobs that Americans won’t do,” at artificially depressed wages. One is that, it increases the load on the welfare systems as there are fewer working poor and more welfare recipients. Another is that, many unscrupulous employers pay illegal aliens in CASH, OFF-THE-BOOKS, avoiding ALL TAXES, which also makes the “ILLEGAL ALIEN WORKER” have little or no income, “qualifying” them for welfare benefits as well…! Yup, it’s all good; right mark?

        One could assume that encouraging and turning a blind eye on “ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION” is a clever plan that provides rich corporations with “cheap-labour”, and obama being the “CORPORATE-WHORE” that he is, is more than willing to oblige!

        The good news is, President Barack Obama has solved the “illegal immigration” problem. According to a study, the outflow of “Mexican illegals” has exceeded the inflow for the first time since the Great Depression.

        The bad news is, the reason for this outcome is that, and thanks to Obama, there are not enough jobs, even those that native-born Americans will not do. Mexican illegal immigrants are increasingly braving their own country’s drug violence in lieu of braving the “bad economy” in the U.S.!!!

        The “trend” started in 2007, when the economy started going into the toilet. Immigration from Mexico has declined from a peak of 670,000 in 2004 to just 140,000 in 2010. The population of Mexican-born illegal immigrants has declined from 7 million in 2007 to 6.1 million in 2010.

        It seems that in this, pathetic-economy, U.S. needs border fence — to keep Mexicans in!!!

      • Mike in MI

        OK, JAY -
        Why be that way, JAY? If what you say is correct (as I think it is) it would only serve to recreate the conditions we had in the 1990′s with a more demand based economy – like Clinton’s – and that would only be good for every U. S. CITIZEN. That wouldn’t be “F-A-I-R” to the sick-egals.
        The prog-frogs would be faced with reality. Now, you KNOW that can’t be tolerated. Truth hurts and that’s why we need ObliteraterCare – to tend all those sick-butted liberals. (“Sick-butted” because the particular genetic defect they’ve inherited generates their mental/physical degeneracy, causing increased costs for O-Care, which causes bleed-off of the funds available for the O-dog and his mafiosi-union boss friends to skim. Purely intolerable.)
        Besides, business would also prosper and that definitely isn’t in Oblama-lamba-dildoe’s plans.

  • callit

    Do not forget the cost of free medical given to illegals that continually drive up costs that
    we have to pay for,the declining education system directly related to having everything
    printed in their language,what incentive to learn english. The prison system is another
    boondagle unto itself,the cost to contain these murderers,thieves,drug dealers average
    $40,000.00/year with all the rights to free legal assistance they need,all payed for by the
    American working man.
    I truly belive that this totally direspectfull government is so completelly out of touch,
    greedy unto themselves that this crybaby sequestration loss is being used for the sole purpose as a smokescreen to sneek in amnesty,gun control measures, think getting one
    out of two isn’t bad. A little about gun control,can you even put into perspective using
    the mass murders that take place when with their actions allow illegals to kill American
    citizens and to only be put into jail for as many killings they have done with no fear of the
    death penalty,at our cost. Please quit this belief that only one or two of this elected
    congress is to blame for this selling of this country,it takes a majority of these turn coats
    to accomplish any selling. Again, a poitition once elected will say/do/proclaim/promise/sell
    or kiss the a__ to get a vote to stay in office,the proof is/has been in evidence with the
    steady decline of our once respected great nation!
    VOTE the crooks OUT!!

    • Old Henry

      And let’s not forget all the third world diseases these criminals bring into our contry.

      It is time for another “Operation Wetback”. Round ‘em all up, put them into boxcars and semi trailers and haul them back to the Rio Grande. And while we are at it round up all the treasonous politicians who support letting these criminals stay here and ship them to Meheeco along with Pedro.

      • Freedom

        It just goes to show you, the ass does represent the Democratic Party, since we have so many of them in leadership positions.

      • Mike in MI

        Old Henry –
        Right, and make them each round up and take a hundred bedbugs back to Meheeco with them………including the big one from the WH.

        AND, if they each took the weapons they’ve acquired since they’ve been here (which they use to shoot legal American citizens) they could use them to quickly overwhelm and obliterate the drug cartels they are running away from. No doubt they could also use them to overcome their United States styled, corrupt government and start a great Hispanic Republic which would soon generate a reverse flow of U. S. citizens, job seekers and technical expertise which would leave the U. S. a hollowed out shell populated almost purely by liberals, union thugs and heretical ishlambics who would shortly turn the place into a God-forsaken sand pit like the arabian peninsula, northern Africa, and everything from Iran to Pakistan.
        If that’s what Oblama-lamba-dildong wants, give it to him.
        And if we don’t like it here anymore in that case – in the immortal words of Sam Kinnison – “MOVE”. Leave it for the likes of our friends Right Butt Thinker, eddie47, Karolyn, GALT (Guilt) and the other anarchist, settling pond crowd.

        I’m gonna go get things packed.

  • joe1cr

    I wish they would put their floating facebook and tweeting links off to one side or the other and not in the articles or the comments.

    • Jana

      I like to see what they are saying.

  • Jim B

    I believe the illegal alien liberal loyalty will fast backfire on the dems as they become aware of the Man behind the strings i.e. their purse strings. How long before they, and the next generation they create, wake up to the facts of government by force, taxation by force, union dues by force, union proxy by force. This idea will back fire sooner than one thinks.

    • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

      But Jim…..”Government is FORCE!”

  • Cindi Miller

    YOU HATERS WON’T POST ANY “NORMAL” COMMENTS. JUST HATE & LIES.
    G-D WILL Smack the crap out of you & send you Straight to hell.

    • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

      Stop telling God what to do.

    • Alan

      Just hate and lies? Then refute it Cindi……

  • Al

    Very inappropriate action from the president,not only he would add11million illegals into the union takin American jobs but also adding in his favor 11million democrats,I believe that a work guess program be established as a way to the citizen chip and therefore assimilation in the country

Bottom
close[X]

Sign Up For Personal Liberty Digest™!

PL Badge

Welcome to PersonalLiberty.com,
America's #1 Source for Libertarian News!

To join our group of freedom-loving individuals and to get alerts as well as late-breaking conservative news from Personal Liberty Digest™...

Privacy PolicyYou can opt out at any time. We protect your information like a mother hen. We will not sell or rent your email address to anyone for any reason.