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ATF’s Lost ‘Fast and Furious’ Weapons Show Up In Arizona Crimes

July 7, 2011 by  

ATF’s Lost ‘Fast and Furious’ Weapons Show Up In Arizona Crimes

After a months-long investigation into the local ramifications of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ contentious “Fast and Furious” case strategy, reporters in Arizona claim to have found evidence of the operation’s toll on American communities.

“For months the ABC15 Investigators have been searching through police reports and official government documents. We’ve discovered assault weapons linked to the… controversial ‘Fast and Furious’ case strategy have turned up at crime scenes in Glendale and Phoenix communities,” ABC15.com, the website for a local Arizona television station, reported.

“The ABC15 Investigators uncovered documents showing guns connected to at least two Glendale criminal cases and at least two Phoenix criminal cases also appear in the ATF’s Suspect Gun Database, a sort-of watch list for suspicious gun sales.”

ATF officials recently testified before Congress about the case strategy, in which agents knowingly allowed firearms to be sold to criminals in Mexico. The operation was meant to help lead the ATF to high-ranking drug lords in the country, but many of the sold weapons were lost in the process. One official estimated that as many as 1,800 unrecovered firearms may now be on the streets of Mexico.

During his Congressional testimony, ATF Special Agent Peter Forcelli said, “I believe that these firearms will continue to turn up at crime scenes on both sides of the border for years to come.”

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  • s c

    The key question in this charade is whether or not (and when) the mental giants responsible for this travesty will be held accountable. To “lose” weapons tends to prove that responsibility is just another word in Washington (and at the ATFE).
    This fishing expedition has the same overpowering stink created by the Best and the Brightest crowd in Vietnam. If the ‘leaders’ responsible for losing weapons and getting Americans killed in the process are immune from prosecution, then we might as well assume that this “war” will end just like the wars on drugs, poverty and social injustice.
    It seems logical that a war on politicians would stop most of the garbage that elected types call leadership. Where do these people come from, America? And how do we get rid of them, once and for all time?

    • 45caliber

      SC:

      Responsibility is the same as taxation. It all belongs to the taxpayers and to the people the government says is responsible. In other words, the responsibility belongs to the taxpayers and to the gun dealers who were told to sell the guns anyway.

      They are responsible only for insuring that all guns here are taken up using the “evidence” that Americans are providing the guns to the criminal elements.

      • lkar

        Isn’t Phoenix the place that the loud mouth sheriff was accussing the right for the violent rhetoric that got peole shot? Wonder if he is going to blast the left for actually supplying guns that got people shot?
        Remember good gun control is being able to hit your target!

        • valDM

          Ikar,
          Please don’t confuse Sheriff Dupnik (Tucson) with Sheriff Joe Arpaio (Mariposa County). Dupnik is a worthless eater, while Sheriff Joe actally has a plan for lawbreakers, implements said plan, and executes said plan.

          • Old Henry

            valDM:

            I seem to recall reading somewhere that Sherriff Joe is running / thinking about running for Congress. Do you know anything about that?

          • Dan az

            valDM
            You are correct!

          • lkar

            Thank you. I would never want to knowingly confuse the two.

          • ValDM

            I didn’t hear that, but he would be a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately, he would probably be “too controversial” for some of the lefty loonies & would be disqualified by some new rule, or just assassination.

          • meteorlady

            I would love to see Sheriff Joe run for President. He’s a kick butt sort of guy and doesn’t really care about how he’s perceived in the news – he just goes about doing the job he was elected to do and he gets it done and spends less.

        • Old Henry

          Amen, Ikar, amen.

      • Old Henry

        45, your last paragraph explains the purpose behind the ATF’s criminal activities.

        Too much of the scum roaming DC are looking for the “excuse” to begin confiscating weapons and shutting down the gun industry.

        • 45caliber

          Their “excuse” is far more important to them than the lives of any person shot by those guns.

          I also thought it interesting that the government insists that “crime hasn’t come across the border to our country yet!”

          I know we have several crimes in this area due to those cartells and now there is proof that AZ also has them. I’d say that the crime has made it here several years ago but the MSM and the government are trying to cover it up. I wonder if they are trying to keep those cartells safe from all us Americans who own our own guns.

          • Freedom

            Crime has come accross our border and is centered in DCI (District of Crimminal Intent0 , where the largest amount of crime is and where the highest number of crimminals are. That being all those in our Federal Cesspool.

          • meteorlady

            We, in Texas, just finished executing one of the illegal criminals for child rape and murder. Obama and Holder tried to stop it but we did it anyway.

            As for no crime from across the border…. I found it very interesting that Obama chose to go to El Paso and gave a rousing speech about how “safe” this city was. Gads – wish he would have gone to the courthouse – he could have checked out the bullet holes from drive bys. Wish he had gone to the border or to the slum areas (they look like third world hell holes) and walked around without protection.

            Fact is that we are over run with crime from illegals and even legal residents here in Texas and our federal government is doing absolutely nothing to stop the influx of illegals from Mexico.

        • meteorlady

          I would be surprised if they use this as proof that we can’t have guns in this country. They have only proved that criminals can get guns a lot of different ways from a lot of different people without permits or background checks. This to me, is why we private citizens need our guns – we will eventually have to protect ourselves.

    • wandamurline

      It was not ever set up to track guns into Mexico to look for drug lords, it was done to prove that American guns were being smuggled into Mexico as a ruse to use harder anti-gun legislation here in America to help this administration try to remove the right to own a gun for Americans. This corrput bunch of communists/marxists/muslims will do anything to disarm America so they can hand us over to the new world order. If you have never voted before, please vote in 2012 to remove this dictator and his hangmen from the White House because your very life may depend on the vote you cast.

      • Al Sieber

        You are right on wanda it’s just another way to get our guns.

      • Laura

        I could not have said this any better

        wanda is 100% correct

    • BKWsr

      They won’t be prosecuted. They are just going to tap dance, and hem n hall and point fingers. There might be even a resignation or 2. Why do we have so many different Law inforcement agencies anyway. They are all doing the same job. This is a good opertunity to clean house, and save money. All we have to do is get rid of half of these agencies. Give us back our rights to protect our homes and loved ones. problem solved.

      • Cawmun Cents

        They have already used the FBI as a scapegoat.BATFE,are likely responsible but since Waco,folks have distrusted that institution,so they blamed it on the FBI.Just a smokescreen to keep the identity of the real criminals secret.-CC.

        • 45caliber

          It was the BATF who set up and ran this fiasco. Just as they did in Waco. They ruined both of them.

          • Bob from Calif.

            It wasn’t just the BATF, this goes all the way to the Whitehouse.

          • Dan az

            45
            It looks to me like they will just follow history.It worked for clinton and Reno.
            Attorney General Janet Reno has said that she accepts “full responsibility” for what happened in Waco; that it was she, not President Clinton, who made the decision to storm the Branch Davidian home with tanks and chemical weapons. President Clinton, after some fancy political “I-knew-about-the-plans-but-I-didn’t-originate-or-direct-them” and “I-support-Jane-Reno’s-decision-in-doing-what-she-did” political gibberish, finally said that he accepted “full responsibility” for what happened in Waco because it was really he, not Janet Reno, who made the decision to storm the home with tanks and chemical weapons. And in the same breath both of them disavowed any responsibility by blaming the deaths of these nearly 100 men, women, and children all on David Koresh.

            So much for the honesty and integrity of two of the most important and powerful people in American government.

          • Dan az

            History seems to always repeat its self.At least bill and janet took responsibility for it if not only for a moment.The present scum will only point fingers and see who else they can find to fall on their sword.

          • 45caliber

            Dan:

            When the BATF pulled back from the initial attack, one of BATF officers involved (he lives locally) said that the guy in charge called Washington. He basically said it was a failure and asked for instructions. After several minutes of listening, he turned to the rest there and said that their orders were to surround the place and shoot to kill anyone they saw. The local man said he and about twenty others pointed out that there were a number of children and elderly there. The man in charge said it didn’t matter – the orders were to shoot to kill all of them. And the local man was almost certain that the orders came from Janet Reno.

          • Dan az

            45
            You know I always wondered why there was not an uprising against the gubmnt then.To kill Americans in a church is what is called a gubmnt out of control.Yet we sit here and watch our liberties destroyed day by day and wait for them to take our guns and the fact is they killed people in a church on a tip that they (may have)illegal weapons.What is it going to take before we finally take a stand?

    • sarah

      If those on here haven’t read “The Original Argument” The Federalist case for the Constitution. It was written by Joshua Charles with Glenn Beck publishing… It is a treasure trove of info on how this Country is suppose to be run by “We the People”. Their “Idea” was to empower the people and not a government! It’s time we take our Country back from Tyranny!

      • Doug Black

        It appears to me that anyone who applies for a job with the U.S. Government has to take an IQ test. Anyone who scores higher than 30 is disqualified

    • independant thinker

      “The operation was meant to help lead the ATF to high-ranking drug lords in the country,”

      “To “lose” weapons tends to prove that responsibility is just another word in Washington (and at the ATFE).”

      These guns were never lost. The the justice dept. and its alphabet agenceys knew when they ordered the dealers to sell the weapons they had no presence in Mexico that would let them track the guns to their ultimate destination. As a result instead of the guns being “lost” they were essentialy given away.

    • Laura

      In order to truly get rid of these politicians- it is to hunt them down and and k i l l all of them and that is reality, it’s either them or us and franky I am beyond done with all of them

      • Old Henry

        Laura:

        Right on target – so to speak….

        Are you from Texas?

    • independant thinker

      BREAKING NEWS ALERT

      This just came up on Newsmax.

      “The top man in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has turned sensationally against his Department of Justice bosses saying they were trying to stymie an investigation into the Operation Fast and Furious scandal.

      Kenneth Melson told Congress in a secret deposition that the Justice Department falsely leaked stories to the press that he was about to resign over Fast and Furious, Rep. Darrell Issa and Sen. Charles Grassley say. (Associated Press Photo)
      Kenneth Melson, acting director of the ATF, gave a secret deposition to Congress on July 4, it was revealed today. He took his own lawyer instead of relying on one from the ATF.”

      Read more on Newsmax.com: Issa, Grassley: DOJ Obstructed Mexican Guns Probe
      Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama’s Re-Election? Vote Here Now!

      • JeffH

        independant thinker, good alert and post.

      • Dan az

        you beat me to the post independant I got here.
        July 6, 2011 – In a surprise move, acting ATF head Kenneth Melson testified before member of congress on July 4th. He testified that the main target of the investigation was in fact a paid FBI informant. He also testified that DOJ lied to congress and intentionally obstructed their investigation. Rep. Issa and Senator Grassley report that the cover up includes ATF, FBI and DEA. Melson denied prior knowledge of Gunwalker and stated that he moved to replace those execs responsible as soon as he learned of the program. He also wanted to fully disclose the operation to congress and the public, but was forbidden to do so by DOJ officials. Rep. Issa has now back away from his previous calls for Melson’s resignation. Reports: Fox News US News and World Report CBS Washington Times

        • JC

          And those who are found to be responsible (if they ever are) should be tried as accessories to murder. How do you deliberately put a couple of thousand auto’s and semi-auto’s into the hands of criminals and, or the general population, and not realize that “somebody” is going to get killed.

          It’s criminal.

      • Dennis48e

        To paraphrase an old saying…….Hope he kicks butt and names names.

  • tom sherman

    If you believe that Obama did not know anything about this then you are NAIVE & STUPID!!!! Yet he & his CRONIES are exempt from prosecution!!! Take your carry & conceal course now because you may need it later!!!

    • sarah

      I agree with you Tom. This was a set up to try to take away the “Rights” of American citizens to own Guns. People can spout all they want that the Founders meant for law to have guns and not the citizens But, the Federalist Papers back the people and not the Gov. The Fed. gov was not suppose to have all the power… The States were… And the States have to answer to the People! It’s time the States all got together and showed the Feds exactly were their place is and it’s not in the States business. Nor is it their right to take away my rights!

    • Old Henry

      Tom:

      “Take your carry & conceal course now because you may need it later!!!”

      Unless you live in The Land of Stincoln where we have the best guvment money can buy.

    • 45caliber

      Tom:

      I’m kind of hesitant about taking that course simply because it marks you as a gun owner. They can’t officially keep records of you buying a gun but they can keep a record that you have a CCL for years.

      • Vicki

        Taking the course does not mark you as an owner. It marks you as a “person of interest” :)

  • Jim

    when will enough be enough ??? the COWARDS in the senate and house need to impeach both holder and obama…anyone who thinks either of these two narcissist’s didn’t know and go along with the fast and furious gun running scheme is delusional at best and or a communist obama supporter, both these commies need to be tried for murder they have killed two of our border guards and God only knows how many other Innocent people with their recklessness of insisting to the gun dealers to sell these guns…..they knew where they would end up

    • 45caliber

      I’m really curious about who thought it up in the first place. I will be willing to bet we will never know for sure, even if someone takes the blame.

      • Dan az

        45
        I place my bet on Holder,he is that dumb!

        • Old Henry

          Actually Dan az, I think he is that anti-America. It’s a dead heat between holder and Soetoro.

      • JeffH

        45caliber, I’m sure this was a set up with the administartions approval to garner support for signing on to the UN Small Arms Treaty.

        While the terms have yet to be made public, if passed by the U.N. and ratified by our Senate, it will almost certainly force the U.S. to:
        1. Enact tougher licensing requirements, creating additional bureaucratic red tape for legal firearms ownership.
        2. Confiscate and destroy all “unauthorized” civilian firearms (exempting those owned by our government of course).
        3. Ban the trade, sale and private ownership of all semi-automatic weapons (any that have magazines even though they still operate in the same one trigger pull – one single “bang” manner as revolvers, a simple fact the ant-gun media never seem to grasp).
        4. Create an international gun registry, clearly setting the stage for full-scale gun confiscation.
        5. In short, overriding our national sovereignty, and in the process, providing license for the federal government to assert preemptive powers over state regulatory powers guaranteed by the Tenth Amendment in addition to our Second Amendment rights.

        Have no doubt that this plan is very real, with strong Obama administration support. In January 2010 the U.S. joined 152 other countries in endorsing a U.N. Arms Treaty Resolution that will establish a 2012 conference to draft a blueprint for enactment.
        Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has pledged to push for Senate ratification.

        Former U.N. ambassador John Bolton has cautioned gun owners to take this initiative seriously, stating that the U.N. “is trying to act as though this is really just a treaty about international arms trade between nation states, but there is no doubt that the real agenda
        here is domestic firearms control.”

        Just how effectively have gun bans worked to make citizens safer in other countries?
        Take the number of home break-ins while residents are present as an indication. In Canada and Britain, both with tough gun-control laws, nearly half of all burglaries occur when residents are present. But in the U.S. where many households are armed, only about 13% happen when someone is home.

        Recognizing clear statistical benefit evidence, 41 states now allow competent, lawabiding adults to carry permitted or permit-exempt concealed handguns. As a result, crime rates in those states have typically fallen at least 10% in the year following enactment.
        http://graphics.nra.org/wayne/Forbes_-Larry_Bell.pdf

        • Old Henry

          Or JeffH, it could be put into effect by the commie Kenyan signing an Executive Order.

          What’s to stop him?

          The Constitution?

          • JeffH

            OH, point taken but I don’t thing an EO could do it, no matter how illegal it would be.

        • 45caliber

          JeffH:

          I’m not so sure it was meant for that although I’m sure they would be willing to use it for that. I suspect that it is meant primarily to shut down the frequent gun shows we have here in the border states. And they want to shut down many of the dealers too. If it hadn’t been for the BATF men in AZ who blew the whistle, they might even have gotten away with it too. They could “prove” these bad dealers were selling at gun shows and shops to the cartells and therefore should be fined and shut down. The fact that their own people were standing there telling the dealers to sell was to have been hidden. But their own people didn’t like it. Now the stink is on them. I understand that one of the more junior people is taking the blame and is going to resign but I’d bet that he will continue to draw a paycheck and will be hired back when they feel that the media and people are no longer paying attention. And I suspect that those who blew the whistle will be hunting jobs before too long.

          • JeffH

            45caliber, with this administration I tend to look past the obvious and look at the bigger picture. It was probably designed to attack the gun show/dealer so called “loop holes” as a primary with the ultimate goal of a UN treaty agreement.

  • Jennie

    Someone needs to completely clean house at the Bereau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives!!! Fast and Furious?? That is how every American should feel about this travesty!! This was an “experiment’?? Every one of the “geniuses” behind this shoul be held accountable. Let’s see . . . distribute guns to dealer and who were told to sell them? These weapons were deliberately “lost”. Check back and see if anyone was killed or injured????!!! Everyone involved in this should be prosecuted, removed from office . . . whatever is necessary!! The “evidence” proves that our government was behind this hare brained action. . . . and every one of them should be fired or removed from office!!!

    • 45caliber

      They don’t need to clean house there – they need to totally shut it down.

      When was it ever needed by the people? It chased bootleggers during Prohibition. I STILL can’t decide what they were supposed to do about tobacco. And their only acts on firearms is to try to ban everything.

    • meteorlady

      I used to go to a clinic in Kent, WA that did alternative medicine. Dr. Jonathan Wright is known all over the world for his innovative approach to allergies and balancing your body chemistry. He is very good.

      The local Doctors kept complaining that Dr. Wright’s clinic was not practicing medicine correctly and was breaking laws. As a result ATF stormed his office, with weapons at ready and wearing flack jackets. There were approximately 35 elderly patients at various places within the clinic and out in the waiting room. Needless to say they were extremely upset.

      ATF confiscated his computers and files without explanation. There was a Grand Jury investigation, which Dr. Wright’s lawyers were able to attend but not the doctor himself. The result was that one year later they returned all the confiscated items, without apology and without compensation. There was a very small article about the return and lack of grounds for prosecution in Section C of the Seattle Times.

      One week later they raided a Health Food Store and confiscated a few of their items. These were also returned after they were analyzed. Nothing was said, no explanation was given, and no one really knows what the produced to get a search warrant.

      To this day Dr. Wright displays a sign on all his office doors that says the government cannot enter without first contacting his lawyers.

  • Lawrence

    I think “Fast and Furious” should be renamed “Dumb and Dumber”.

  • 1minuteman

    we have obama and holder who are pursuing to prosecute the cia for waterboarding terrorists but they don’t want to be tried for arming the drug cartels to get rid of our 2nd amendment. unbelievable! remember 2012 is the most important election in the history of our country. we need to take back the senate and keep the house so the votes will be there to impeach and or try obama and holder for treason and many other crimes.

    • Old Henry

      1minuteman, didn’t “we” have the House and Senate during dick-for-brains trial? Or, was it just the House? I truly cannot remember.

      Even if we keep the House and win the Senate noting will be done – ever.

  • Chris

    One more idiotic attempt by the Obama administration and the progressive/marxist faction in our government, to make firearms look bad!
    Holder knew about this, Napolitano knew about this, and most likely Obama knew about this! They all need to be tossed into the street and jailed!
    The real criminals in this are going to be difficult to turn up, as rats are good at covering their tracks.
    The dealers did what they were told, more like threatened, to do. The agents did what they were told and threatened about. The only ones that came out well on this were the Cartel people, which are the same people too many government officials support on both sides of the border!!!!

    • Patriot

      Chris I like your post! Let’s add treason to the list with the full extent of sentencing! Also, add to the list the unlawful war in Libya.

    • Don

      Chris, you left out Hiliary’s name, she is as bad as they come when it comes to gun control !!

      • independant thinker

        While I am sure she approved of the action Hillary has plausable deniability on this one because she has been running around the rest of the world instead of being at home (avoiding Bill?).

  • Elisa

    “The operation was meant to help lead the ATF to high-ranking drug lords in the country, but many of the sold weapons were lost in the process.”
    Why does Personal Liberty keep repeating this story? That is a lie. They never intended to look for drug lords, they were trying to make the case that Americans were supplying guns to Mexico so that they could pass legislation to take away our guns; they needed a justification to circumvent the 2nd Amendment! Mrs. Clinton is/has signed the UN Treaty giving the UN power over American citizens. I hope to God that when the truth comes out about this that Holder and Obama are held accountable and prosecuted.

    • 45caliber

      You are correct.

    • r.p.

      as should Hillary. She made a deal with a foreign entity without the consent of Congress.

      • Doug Black

        We need to get the U.S. out of the U.N. and get the U.N. out of the U.S. The U.N. has been a Trojan Horse from day one. When North Korea invaded South Korea in 1950, U.S. troops responded as the major power of a U.N. police action. 54,000 U.S. troops died in the Korean War. North Korea’s invasion was financed and equipped by the Soviet Union. Because we were a part of a “U.N. Police Action all our major battle plans had to be reviewed by the U.N. Security Council which was presided over by a Soviet Field Marshal. We were fighting with our hands tied. General MacArthur took matters into his own hands and drove the enemy back to the Chinese border before he was fired by President Truman. We have paid most of the U.N. expenses since it started and we have been outvoted on most, if not all decisions in the U.N. I and many other loyal Americans Have had enough.

    • independant thinker

      “Mrs. Clinton is/has signed the UN Treaty giving the UN power over American citizens.”

      No one has signed the “Small Arms Treaty” because it has yet to be compleated. Hillary has stted her approval of the treaty. Even if she signs it the treaty will have to be approved by the Senate before it goes into effect in the US. Having said that I am sure if the Senate refused to ratify the treaty Obama will try to do an end run and enforce it anyway.

      • Dan az

        independant
        Does the 16th amendment come to mind?

      • Kane

        Billary can sign all the “treaties” she wants. She can abide by them if she wants to. They sure as hell don’t bind me. If you think UN Troops are going to come into my country and dis-arm us and “pacify” it, all I have to say is those blue helmets make excellent targets.
        Come get some.

    • JC

      Elisa says:
      July 7, 2011 at 8:14 am
      “The operation was meant to help lead the ATF to high-ranking drug lords in the country, but many of the sold weapons were lost in the process.”
      ___________________________________________________________________
      The other side of it is this…
      Why would drug lords with literally “billions” of dollars at their disposal, be trying to get their firepower in the US with all the laws we have? (provided they were actually enforced I mean)

      These drug kings can literally buy entire 747′s loaded with absolutely anything money can buy and land them in the south…then toodle on up north with the guns.

      They’re getting them a couple at a time from Fred’s Sporting Goods?
      Preposterous!

  • dan

    Aiding and abetting criminals and terrorists…what WAS our government
    is at war with us. The good men and women in the alphabet agencies and law enforcement are going to have to make a decision : serve their
    masters serve beside their fellow patriots.
    Friend or foe.
    Mark well your enemies,for they have chosen their course…now let us plan how best to remedy the situation. We have not chosen this conflict
    that has been thrust upon us…but we MUST,for our posterity, respond
    with a clarity and finality based in the firm belief in truth , justice,
    and the American way.

    • skippy

      HURRAHH to you Dan!!!!

    • JC

      In a nutshell! Exactly right.

  • Fredsworld

    Unless these criminals running and participating in BATFE are held accountable, nothing will stop them from doing illegal activity in the future. We are living under a military style police state with the biggest criminal as the commander in chief! We must as citizens of this great nation be outraged, speak up, and demand justice be swift! We must open our minds to the fact that most in law enforcement today will deprive you of your God given rights without a second thought. We no longer have a justice system, we are left with a legal system in which there is no more Justice! Wake Up American Brothers and Sisters!

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    Quotes from both liberals and conservatives:

    – Robert A. Heinlein.
    “The power to tax involves the power to destroy;…the power to destroy may defeat and render useless the power to create….”

    – Chief Justice John Marshall, 1819.
    “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.”

    – Thomas Jefferson
    “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”

    – Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
    “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good”

    – George Washington
    “The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”

    – Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
    “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.”

    – Mahatma Gandhi
    “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    – Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
    “Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficient… The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.”

    – Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
    “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue.”

    – Barry Goldwater
    “I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.”

    – Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
    The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other types of arms. The possession of unnecessary implements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings.

    – Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Shogun, August 1588
    “This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it.”

    – Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861
    “One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms.”

    – Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840
    “The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being…”

    – J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.
    Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest.

    – From the Declaration of the Continental Congress, July 1775.
    “As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks.”

    – Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew.
    No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.

    – 16 Am. Jur. Sec. 177 late 2d, Sec 256
    “The state calls its own violence `law’, but that of the individual `crime’”

    – Max Stirner
    “Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!’ in a crowded theater.”

    – Peter Venetoklis
    …Virtually never are murderers the ordinary, law-abiding people against whom gun bans are aimed. Almost without exception, murderers are extreme aberrants with lifelong histories of crime, substance abuse, psychopathology, mental retardation and/or irrational violence against those around them, as well as other hazardous behavior, e.g., automobile and gun accidents.”

    – Don B. Kates, writing on statistical patterns in gun crime
    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    – John F. Kennedy
    The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”

    – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court
    “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”

    – George Washington, in a speech of January 7, 1790
    “A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves … and include all men capable of bearing arms.”

    – Senator Richard Henry Lee, 1788, on “militia” in the 2nd Amendment
    “…quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.” [...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]

    – (Lucius Annaeus) Seneca “the Younger” (ca. 4 BC-65 AD),
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.

    – Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson’s Commonplace book
    No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave.

    – “Political Disquisitions”, a British republican tract of 1774-1775
    The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere.

    – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abigail Adams, 1787
    & what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.

    – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787
    “Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.”

    – Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788
    Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence? Where is the difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?

    – Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788
    “To disarm the people… was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”

    – George Mason, speech of June 14, 1788
    “The great object is, that every man be armed. [...] Every one who is able may have a gun.”

    – Patrick Henry, speech of June 14 1788
    Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen.

    – “M.T. Cicero”, in a newspaper letter of 1788 touching the “militia”
    referred to in the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
    That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms…

    – Samuel Adams, in “Phila. Independent Gazetteer”, August 20, 1789
    The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the *government*, not to *society*; and as long as they have nothing to revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the use of arms, and no possible disadvantage.

    – Joel Barlow, “Advice to the Privileged Orders”, 1792-93
    [The disarming of citizens] has a double effect, it palsies the hand and brutalizes the mind: a habitual disuse of physical forces totally destroys the moral [force]; and men lose at once the power of protecting themselves, and of discerning the cause of their oppression.

    – Joel Barlow, “Advice to the Privileged Orders”, 1792-93
    A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

    – John Stuart Mill, writing on the U.S. Civil War in 1862
    You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence.

    – Attributed to Charles Austin Beard (1874-1948)
    Every Communist must grasp the truth, ‘Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.’

    – Mao Tse-tung, 1938, inadvertently endorsing the Second Amendment.
    In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a ‘shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length’ at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. [...] The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.

    – Majority Supreme Court opinion in “U.S. vs. Miller” (1939)
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

    – Robert A. Heinlein, “Beyond This Horizon”, 1942
    The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.

    – Hitler, April 11 1942
    The right to buy weapons is the right to be free.

    – A.E. Van Vogt, “The Weapon Shops Of Isher”, ASF December 1942
    Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon — so long as there is no answer to it — gives claws to the weak.

    – George Orwell, “You and the Atom Bomb”, 1945
    Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.

    – Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960
    No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less when there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm without restriction. Half a century of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a far greater use of this weapon in crime than ever before.

    – Colin Greenwood, in the study “Firearms Control”, 1972
    Let us hope our weapons are never needed –but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government — and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws.”

    – Edward Abbey, “Abbey’s Road”, 1979
    If I were to select a jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today, I would pick BATF [the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms].

    – U.S. Representative John Dingell, 1980
    .. a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen…

    – Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)
    The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner.

    – Report of the Subcommittee On The Constitution of the Committee On
    The Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, second session
    (February, 1982), SuDoc# Y4.J 89/2: Ar 5/5
    In recent years it has been suggested that the Second Amendment protects the “collective” right of states to maintain militias, while it does not protect the right of “the people” to keep and bear arms. If anyone entertained this notion in the period during which the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were debated and ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis.

    – Stephen P. Halbrook, “That Every Man Be Armed”, 1984
    To make inexpensive guns impossible to get is to say that you’re putting a money test on getting a gun. It’s racism in its worst form.

    – Roy Innis, president of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), 1988
    I don’t like the idea that the police department seems bent on kepping a pool of unarmed victims available for the predations of the criminal class.

    – David Mohler, 1989, on being denied a carry permit in NYC
    Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don’t have a gun, freedom of speech has no power.

    – Yoshimi Ishikawa, Japanese author, in the LA Times 15 Oct 1992
    You know why there’s a Second Amendment? In case the government fails to follow the first one.

    – Rush Limbaugh, in a moment of unaccustomed profundity 17 Aug 1993
    The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals… It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.

    – Albert Gallatin, Oct 7 1789
    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

    – John F. Kennedy

    • Al Sieber

      Excellent quotes coal miner.

      • TIME

        I will second that, great job CM.

      • JC

        Excellent quotes. As I go through them though, I notice many are incorrectly attributed, or seem to be. Just the way they’re laid out…

    • JeffH

      coal miner, good job on those excellant quotes. :)

    • momplayer

      Also when a japanese admiral was ask why they had not invaded the US after world war 2 since that had many more soilders than we did he Explained that although he had more soldiers,they did not out number the armed citizens of the US . Sorry can’t remember the admirals name.

      • independant thinker

        Yamamoto

      • pegasis

        That was Admiral Yamamoto, who said that there would be guns “behind every blade of grass.” He also stated, after Pearl Harbor, that he “feared we have awakened a sleeping giant.”

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
    –Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).

  • GHOP

    I agree with wandamurline. This was a way to prove that guns from America were being smuggled into Mexico. It was more ammunition for the gun-grabbers to use to justify the UN small arms treaty which would disarm law-abiding U.S. citizens, and also push for stricter gun control. There are too many laws in this country already that restrict law-abiding citizens rights. It’s time we vote these liberal Constitution hating politicians out of office, especially Obumbler.

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    Socialist leader:

    The Constitution of the United States guarantees to you the right to bear arms…You have the unquestioned right, under the law, to defend your life and protect the sanctity of your fireside. Failing in either, you are a coward and a craven and undeserving of the name of man.” — Eugene V. Debs

  • voted against carter

    American Government Complicit in Smuggling W e a p o n s Used to K i l l Border Patrol Agent Confirmed:

    OPERATION “GUNRUNNER” FAST &FURIOUS

    Our treasonous rulers have DELIBERATELY allowed American guns to be smuggled into Mexico, so that Obama can use their presence there to UNDERMINE the Second Amendment.

    It has now been confirmed that Border Patrol agent Brian Terry, who came under fire by
    some illegal aliens while providing free police services to others, was killed with weapons put in enemy hands by our own rogue government as part of the ATF’s Eric Holder-approved “Fast and Furious” program.

    • wayne937

      I feel that Congress should create a special prosecutors to investigate this, and hold those responsible for this crime. This gutless Congress most likely will not.

      • Don

        Wayne937, i agree with you, and if Congress don’t do it then it’s time to vote them all out !!

      • Cawmun Cents

        The problem with Congress investigating this is that one or several may be complicit in it.The condition should be to appoint a non-government civilian committee,who will have special government waivers of immunity as well as full funding to determine the level of corruption in the current administration.I volunteer to be on the committee.I will not be bribed or frightened.I will oppose their tyranny with common decency,a trait which I am confident that they would never extend to me.Everyone will be given a fair assessment.I will leave it up to the justice system to mete out the punishment.This is exactly the type of thing that needs to be done.We will never likely knoe the extent of their debauchery if we do not demand a civilian investigation.Government investigating itself will never work….they will find a scapegoat and wallah!….the blame goes conveniently where it does not belong.-CC.

  • Wyrdwolf

    Sorry folks but this is not the first time our government(?) has given weapons to evil people and looked really stupid doing it. After the Cuban Exodius into Florida someone thought giving Criminals guns so they can go back home and take it over was a good idea.
    What happened was that these Cuban Convicts stayed here and robbed banks, and people, and worse
    What we as a society need to understand is that motto on the side of the Police cars ( to serve and protect ) is a lie.
    The reality is that they are more like a maid service cleaning up after the criminals and sorting evidence to find some kind of justice. Too many laws, too many laws how do you know that any of us are not in violation of some law that some one else has just not decided to enforce ( until it suites them or is to their advantage)

    • wayne937

      I guess what your saying Wyrdwolf are that two wrongs make a right. You thought that this administration would have learned from the mistakes that was made in the past. Why do we study history? Don’t we study history so we don’t make the same mistakes twice? It seems this administration don’t seem to understand or wstudy history. Obama thinks we have 58 states in this country. Do you still think he knows, or reads history?

      • 45caliber

        wayne:

        How many times have you heard a politician say, “Look to the future!”

        I suspect the reason is that they don’t want you to look to the past to realize they are planning to make the same stupid mistake again.

        Yes, all of us needs to be reading history so we KNOW when they want to do the same things again. (I started to say “a second time” but actually most of the time they are doing it far more times than that.)

        • independant thinker

          never mind

      • pegasis

        Actually, Obummer is a GREAT student of history. He is following Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” to the letter!

        • independant thinker

          Read the first few chapters of “The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich”

    • Laura

      You are not taking into the fact that this is about specifically disarming Americans, this did not apply to the other situations you mentioned

  • Raggs

    The BATAF is just another corrupt organization funded by our taxes much like ACORN.. BTW ACORN is back and once again stealing our money.
    Eric Holder is doing everything that he can to block further investigations into this scandal, so that should tell you how this will turn out…. My bet is that nothing at all will happen and nobody but the tax payers will pay the price.. I figure oblama will now have to create another crisis in order to hide this story.

  • wayne937

    The “fast and furious” selling of weapons to the Mexican drug lords is just one of many of this administrations criminal enterprize. Why don’t Congress hire an independent prosecutor and try this President for this crime, and possible try to impeach him for this crime. Watch the Liberals on this forum come to the aid of this Muslim Communist Administration. Do we need this type of administration? WE need an administration that will obey the Constitution. I feel they would like to get rid of the Constitution and make Obama a dictator. I just heard on television that Eric Holder is bringing another terrorist to this country and giving him all the benefits that an American would receive instead of taking him to Cuba at our terrorist holding center. I can’t wai to get this Muslim Communist out of our White House. Why don’t Congress impeach this imbecile who believes we have 58 states and can’t even pronounce corps correctly. A Harvard Graduate? If so, this sure does not speak well for Harvard Unniversity.

  • patrick

    ATTENTION: We the people need to find some of those disgruntled postal employees from a few years ago. You know, the ones that got fired or lost their jobs and then went back to place of work and then they went ballistic and got even and killed a bunch of their bosses or coworkers. Yes we should all be looking for these people, to recruit them to go visit the whitehouse and atty generals offices and other govt departments that were involved with the fast and furious operation. Let’s call it: clean house day and make it the next national holiday! This would be an efficent, low cost solution to rid our great country of the disease that Obammy boy and his crew of crooked czars have caused in the Great U.S. of America.

    • Laura

      I agree. This has to be done

    • Cawmun Cents

      You do know that what you are saying can be traced directly back to you dont you? You have what is known as an IP address.To advocate sedition is punishable by execution.Going postal is a ploy for idiots.You are either a plant….to get others to give themselves up as violent seditionists,or very young and naieve.No…blasting away fruitlessly,at folks who likely will not be those responsible for the current malaise,is not the answer to our condition.Modifying the structure of policy is,however a viable alternative.The roots of progressiveism run deep.But through due dilligence,and using God as our moderator,we can uproot the Phillistines who propagate intentional malevolence toward the citizenry.Attempts to root out violent seditionists must be seen by those of us who wish to protect each other,forwhat they are.Likely FBI hooks which catch stupid fish.I wish that we could rest on our grievances,as the foundation for our discontent.But we must also use mental accuity to sever any chance of patriot act poison from entering our veins of communication.The powers that be,are adept at using Black Science to manipulate us well.Refute their attempts to reel you in little fish,or be caught in the net of simplemindedness which you seem to be swimming into at this point.-CC.

      • Cawmun Cents

        Just watched Atlantis launch for the last time.Both triumphant and tragic at the same time.What a paragon of Americas vision and strength the Shuttle program was.God Bless this nation……-CC.

  • wayne937

    We need some one like Donald Trump, who has the speaking ability, and the courage to come to the aid of this country. He is a multibillionaire and could afford to buy enough air time to expose this corrupt administration for what they really are. I am sure if Trump would decide to do this, he would get a lot of contributions to help pay the cost of air time. If the American People knew just what we know on this forum, we would either see an impeachment of Obama, or at least a change in admimnistration in 2012.

    • 45caliber

      I think one of the problems with Trump is that he has a price if they are willing to pay it. And I think they paid it to shut him up over the birth certificate. I don’t know what the price is but I think he was paid. We need someone who can’t be bought to make the fuss.

    • meteorlady

      Trump is a blowhard egotist and he can be bought. Notice how he shut up after the birth certificate? He didn’t even question even though it had GLARING errors.

  • John

    Get rid atf,fcc,Federal reserve bank,IRS,IMF,financial privacy act, dodd frank act,all U.N. treaties, Nafta,cafta, Obama and all his communist! La Raza, No amnesty Look at: http://www.commieblaster.com tell others. Get rid of financal safety act, get rid of patriot act, small arms gun control pending, Get rid all the holds on small business and taxes, NO death tax, No corp tax, no captial grains taxes,No taxes on american company investing over seas having a bank account. And the U.S. needs to stop strong arm countries that any America the want to have his or her money in a foreign bank private. American needs to control the government not the other way around!

  • Susan T.

    Does it really matter what those who devised this blatantly stupid sting offer as the reason behind their stupidity (who would believe what they said, any way?!?)? It is stupid on its face and mindless in its conception. I would be more inclined to believe someone’s under the table plan to make some extra money was exposed and they are furiously backpedaling in an attempt to save face and escape punishment.

    I have no idea what the true foundation of this crumbling fiasco might be, but as a rational person, able to think for herself and identify an irrational premise when I hear or read about one, this takes the grand prize. The problem is who would want to be known as the winner for such a farce as this? Too late, the award has been given!

  • John

    Get rid of 1968 gun control act- The law that was translated from german during the Nazi era to english to suppress the Jews. But this time is a foundation and current laws for project gunrunner and U.N. treaties to disarm Americans. Like England and austraila gun controls.Wrong in every sense .WE must get all the communist and sleeper commies out of office- Enough is enough! http://www.commieblaster.com

    • 45caliber

      John:

      I saw an article several years ago in one of the NRA magazines that said that England has had such an increase in crime since they banned guns there that the police has been ordered to not even bother taking crime reports unless it is a major felony. They don’t have time. Yet when I read the English newspapers, the real stories are either of kid gangs doing whatever they want or of people being arrested for silly stuff. The story I’m hearing is that there is so much crime that people don’t bother to report it now. You are 16 times more likely to be a victim of a crime there than you are here. They kind of play that down.

      • independant thinker

        England also “bundles” crimes for statistical purposes to make their crime rate appear lower. In other words if there is a rash of breakins in an area they are reported as one crime for statistical purposes.

  • Jake

    This “falsw flag” of sorts was an Op to make it appear that US arms in Mexico were at the 90% level. That lie didn’t fly, so the “regime” wanted to fudge up the numbers. This obviously goes right up to Holder, Obama/Soetoro and Shrillary. The question is; who’s going to fall on their sword to prtect the traitors of the people. If Holder is sacrificed part of der Fuhrer Usurper’s armour comes off. The Obamagate cover-up is (one of) the largest and worst (domestic) conspiracy to ever be put upon the American people. The farther I look, the more that I find. Watergate pales by comparrison.

    • 45caliber

      I understand some “assistant director” is resigning over it.

  • independant thinker

    Here is a link from yesterday that is interesting.

    http://tinyurl.com/3spbed3

  • Kelly

    Our system of government is the best there is, but it is broken. Laziness and self gratification on our part has allowed those that would rule us prevail. To fix this mess we must…
    * Have term limits on Congress & the Senate
    * Strictly enforced rules on lobbyists and/or Union influence.
    * Never allow the Liberals/Progressives to have a Constitutional Convention or to re-write the Constitution.
    * Strictly follow the existing Constitution.
    * Balanced budget amendment w/o loopholes.
    * No “Czars” or Presidential “Executive Orders” that circumvent Congress and the law.

    How stupid can we be to allow the people we elect to set their own salary, set their own benefit packages, retirement, health plan. To allow them ( our employees) to exempt themselves to the laws and regulations that they set for the rest of us. Why do we continue to allow them to violate their oath of office “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both domestic and foreign”.

  • BOOHOO

    Somehow it will be Bush’s fault…..

    • independant thinker

      The NYT has already tried to blame the NRA for it since that ain’t working I agree Bush is next in line to be blamed.

  • Dan az

    The Swiss protect their nation with a citizen army. The number one sport in the country is rifle marksmanship. In order to avoid the fate of Norway – where the Nazis simply seized the armories – the Swiss reservists keep their weapons at home. This, along with the terrain, makes Switzerland a very tough nut to crack – tough enough that they were left alone in both World Wars while all nations around them were involved. In addition, citizens soldiers retaining their weapons prevents tyrants from seizing power. As a result Switzerland is the oldest democracy on earth.

    Today the Swiss people – who are number three in the world in private firearms ownership – overwhelmingly rejected a referendum to require reservists to keep their issue assault rifles in government armories. The Swiss crime rate is very low, but they have a high suicide rate. The Swiss people rejected the argument that removing a method of kill one’s self would reduce the number of suicides. Experience with removing other methods – such was highly poisonous domestic gas formally used in East Germany – has proven them right.

    It’s nice to know that there are other nations where people are citizens and not subjects.

    • independant thinker

      “tough enough that they were left alone in both World Wars while all nations around them were involved.”

      There is a story told that around 1940 a German General and a Swiss general met and had a discussion. At some point the German general said to the Swiss general something similar to this. “I have a 5 million man army at my disposal you have a 1 million man army. What would you do if I took my army and attacked you”. The Swiss general replied “We would each fire five shots then we could stand down”. The meaning being the Swiss were so well trained 5 shots from each man were all they would need to defeat the German army.

      • Dan az

        independant
        That is so true :) now can you imagine that with obumers 500,000 civil army?aginst 300 million armed and pissed off citizens,hell we only need to give the grannies one shot! :)

        • 45caliber

          Most grannies down here with a gun owns a double barrel shotgun. So the grannies get two shots! At least!

      • Cawmun Cents

        This 1940 thing assumes of course that the Germans would not be adept at tactical warfare.You may have a civilian army that outnumbers the army that shows up to fight.But an army that knows how to fight because of experience,should never be underestimated.The story of the 300 comes to mind.If I am correct….the Swiss havent been at war for quite some time.Hmmm….that would kind of put the kibosh on experienced warriors in Switzerland wouldnt it?But what do I know?Apparently very little……

    • 45caliber

      Dan:

      I wonder if the Swiss would accept legal immigrants other than those from the Mid East (which is apparently a problem for everyone.)

      • Dan az

        45 :) can you yodool? :)

        • 45caliber

          I can try …

        • independant thinker

          I can but you definately would plug your ears and cover them with thick pillows too.

  • JeffH

    Thought I would post this update from a companion thread from yesterday: Obama’s 2nd Amendment Assault
    http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/government/obamas-2nd-amendment-assault/#comment-484721

    This question was posed after Eddie47D questioned 45caliber’s believability.

    Who here believes 45Caliber over eddie?

    cast your vote now.
    Y = YES – a vote for 45caliber
    N = NO – a vote for eddie
    _____________________________________________________________

    Not sorry to tell you this eddie, but the final tally is 9 – 0 in favor of 45caliber!

    That means there is unanimousus support in 45caliber’s believability over Eddie47D’s. Even your liberal brothers wouldn’t weigh in and vote for you.

    Q: Are you starting to “get it” yet?
    A: I doubt it!

    • Dan az

      :) :)

    • independant thinker

      I notice eddie is conspicus by his absence today. guess he is still licking his wounds from yesterday. I know he is up because he has commented on another article.

    • 45caliber

      Thanks for the support of those who voted for me!

      • JeffH

        45caliber, you’ve always conducted yourself on this board with respect for others, even to those you don’t see eye to eye with, and deserve the support without question.

        • Dan az

          45
          besides we like to keep a 45 around for back up :)

          • JC

            Amen That! :)
            Was it even a contest? LOL

      • Jay

        His moniker says it all, he’s a straight shooter!!!

  • Bob Marshall

    Remember that Obama doesn’t believe in the Constitution as well as at least 79 of our congressmen.Gun control is coming. Congress does what they are told.If necessary Obama will sneak a bill into being like he has inother cases.Congress sign a bill and Obama adds his own and signs it. It becomes law. we have a congress with no backbone.All they worry about is keeping their jobs.Too many American still don’t realize how much control of our government the government in london has over our nation.it has been decided. We will be come part of The North American Union.This was agreed upon years ago.Once we are disarmed the UN will take control.As long as the US stays in the UN,IMF,World bank and the BIS we are under their control.The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was the first step toward the New World Order. The same year the Federal Income Tax was founded. the US has been headed towards socialism ever since. Welfare is a socialist program. Food stamps. Even Social Security. Any government program that give to those that have not at the expense of those who have. Social Security, origionaly thought to be a good idea was set up for funds to be stolen and used for other purposes.Yes, the global elite came up with these programs. The president may change but the same people will be in control. After all, the president is just a puppet that does the will of the global elite.If you think the military and police won’t shoot us if ordered then you are sadly mistaken. Could you shoot a friend or neighbor. Like what happened in the War Between The States..It may one day come to that unless you are disarmed.Then there are the FEMA camps that possibly exist. Right!

    • 45caliber

      Bob:

      I agree that gun control is coming. With those we have now in power, it will come. I just want to see it put off as long as possible.

      • Dan az

        45
        Where not getting any younger here waiting so I say bring it on.Lets get it over with.Hells only half full so lets fill it up!

  • wisdom

    So while Arizona is trying to help the Fed. protect the boarder, the Administration not only sues Arizona to stop them from doing the Administrations job, but simultaneously forces gun shops to violate the law and provide criminals with over 2,000 semi-auto rifles, including 50 calibers?
    So while the Administration, with out declaring war on Libya, is “assisting” in preventing arms getting to that countries government, it is allowing arms to flow into the deadliest city in the world, which happens to be on our southern boarder?
    WOW.

    • Dan az

      Wisdom
      We scare the hell out of him.That’s a fact!We have snipers in the hills guarding the trails for the invaders and we can not do a thing about it.Makes sense huh!The states need to take control of the very laws that they should be doing and not the other way around.

      • Al Sieber

        You got that right Dan.

    • 45caliber

      wisdom:

      Exactly. But for different reasons. The guns going to Mexico are to give them an excuse to disarm our own people. The fighting in Libya is to get our soldiers far from here and to keep the people’s attention on it rather than on what they are doing in Washington.

  • Capitalist at Birth

    Where are all the Totalitarian Socialists today. I haven’t seen any posts from them. I wonder why? In May ot 2008 I read the Obamanation by Jerome R. Chorsi, and decided I would (for the first time in my 59 years at that time) to buy weapons, ammunition, as well as food, distilled water, books, propane, survival equipment if preparation for the coming insurection. Be Prepared! My father who fought in World War II at the battle of Luzon, said you have never been in war, what are you doing? I told him I intend to die a free man and never become a slave. Now he agrees that I took the right approach.

    • 45caliber

      Good! I have plenty of guns but I still keep my eye open for something new that isn’t expensive. I’m considering a pistol right now that is actually a double barrel .410. It shoots both .410 and .45 long colt rounds. Two shots of buckshot will cover most of a wall in any wall in my house. Then I can still have something else to clean up the mess.

      • JeffH

        45caliber, I’m sure you’ve seen the Taurus Judge, a 5 shot revolver, which shoots either 45LC or .410…Big seller and reasonable starting around $450. It does come in all kinds of configurations too.
        http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=9935_13105_13421_16842

        • Dan az

          Bro
          I have a buddy that has one and rally loves it!

          • JeffH

            Once again, not an approved handgun for sale on the CADOJ list. Under California law the Judge is considered a shotgun and any shotgun with a barrel length under 18-1/2″ is illegal to own.

          • independant thinker

            JeffH you can move to Arkansas. We do have higher humidity than Cali but we do not have hurricanes and we are one of four states that do not run a budget deficit in fact this last year we had a surplus. The sales tax on food went down again this year and will eventualy be eliminated. Arkansas is also doing ok economicaly. Maybe not quite as good as Texas but much better than the nation as a whole. We also do not have all those stupid laws restricting ownership of this gun and that gun our gun laws follow the federal laws as far as types of firearms you can own.

          • JeffH

            independant thinker, my father’s roots are in Arkansas. His grandfather immigrated there from Stuttgart, Germany back in the mid 1800′s. They settled in Subiaco, AR. where I have tons of family back there. Also in Missouri and Oklahoma. Mostly, though, I’d like Arkansas for their great duck hunting. Personally, I’ve never been there.

          • thinkingoutsidethebox

            JeffH I live almost due east of Subiaco near Dardanelle. Arkansas also has some pretty good deer hunting and squirrel hunting. In the Subiaco Dardanelle area there is lots of public land (national forrest) you can hunt on although the best duck hunting is in the eastern part of the state. There is a limited amount of duck and goose hunting just east of Dardanelle and on Lake Dardanelle though.

            You need to visit sometime you might not want to leave.

        • independant thinker

          I just saw where S&W has come out with a competing pistol. It is supposed to fire 410, 45LC, and 45ACP. Don’t have any other info such as price and availibity though.

    • independant thinker

      “Where are all the Totalitarian Socialists today. I haven’t seen any posts from them. I wonder why? ”

      They are probably still licking their wounds from the drubbing we gave them yesterday on this subject. I notice they are active spewing their drivel on some of the other articles today.

    • Cawmun Cents

      (Said with thick Russian accent)My observation is that usual suspects have been sent to Chicago Communist Convention comrades.The need for re-eduducation is being re-verberated far and wide.FBI have been tapping us for resource on how subversives think.Do you know how subversive thinks comrades?Nyet,I do not.I think maybe they find what they are looking for in bottom of Stolichnaya bottle.signed-Boris Foreskin

  • Dan az

    Good for you and your family!

  • Bruce Brandenburg

    This is another fine mess you’ve gotten us into “Barry”. When will the incompetence end?

  • Don

    I believe this is what Obama meant by “working on it behind the scenes” when he was asked what he was doing about gun control.Presidents have been impeached for less(Watergate comes to mind.

  • http://PersonalLiberty Charles Eisenhuth

    You said the ultimate truth, oldHenry. “Even if we keep the House and win the Senate noting will be done – ever!” Yep, the post is so corrupt that even if the Rep had 100% both Houses we would see our liberties sold down the river for 30 pieces of silver (or silver clad zinc by today’s standards). I’m 60 and on a disability policy bought with my own money and I’m worried that my money will not be mine or will not be worth toilet paper.

  • http://PersonalLiberty Charles Eisenhuth

    Oops, small edit to that post. Remove ‘post’ from the third sentence and insert gov’t (don’t know where ‘post’ came from). There should be a last sentence that reads, “I haven’t yet tried it for this purpose (T.P.) but, given the rate of decline it should cost effective by the middle of next week”.

  • Capt Richie

    It’s becoming more obvious each day that the Left wants to confiscate Americans’ weapons so that there can be no resistance to the theft of wealth and property they continuously plan and execute. Remember, the first thing that Fidel Castro did after defeating Batista was to confiscate all the guns he could find among the populace. Then he pulled his communist switch on them after professing to be a lover of Jeffersonian democracy and American freedom.

  • i41

    The supposely open dialogue is only OK when the marxist/communists can spout all kinds of direct comments to Tea Party people and conservatives, but as usual if the allowed action taken by democrats are used on them, the media and PCed rinos will come to their rescue every time. Conservatives have no backbone and no guts to dish the same bildge right back to the marxist/communist democrats. Have any doubt about the wimps caving to the marxist/communist democrats and their niggardly methods of destroying the USA! Prove me wrong on their beliefs and behaviors, not their hide color.

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    The Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Canada
    We Stand on Guard for Thee
    Some un-spun, straight-ahead facts, statistics, and opinion
    on Rights, gun control, crime, and dirty politics.

    “To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow… For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.”
    – Jeff Snyder, Oct 20, 1994

    Rights and Law
    Canadians do have the Right to Bear Arms.
    Many Canadians believe (and our government would certainly have us believe) that there is no Right of the citizen to keep arms for their own use and defense, like the US Second Amendment, in Canadian law. To those citizens, I would suggest a bit of reading up on our own history and legal framework. Our right to bear arms is not mentioned in recent documents such as the Constitution or Charter because it’s already stated elsewhere in Canadian law.

    Our right to keep and bear arms in our own or the country’s defense comes from exactly the same place as the American one — English Common Law, the English Bill of Rights 1689, the writings of Sir William Blackstone in his Commentaries on English Law, and others. All these laws (and indeed the full body of English Law), became part of Canadian law on our Confederation in 1867 with the affirmation of the British North America (BNA) Act.

    We have this Right, though our government is attempting to suppress it and deny citizen’s their age-old right to self-defense with the egregious and unconstitutional (not to mention horrendously expensive) Firearms Act and other proposals.

    It leads one to wonder why the government so wants an unarmed and defenceless populace. See The Legal basis for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Canada.

    The Charter of Rights and Freedoms
    The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a precious and revered document to most Canadians, and rightly so. Are we prepared to tolerate law that is contemptuous of the Charter and constitutes a grievous affront to its provisions? Are some minorities ‘equal-er’ than others? See How the Firearms Act (BILL C-68) Violates The Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

    Our politicians claim to be passionate defenders of the Charter. That is patently not true. The claim is hypocrisy while Acts such as the Firearms Act exist.

    We should be fearful of a government that would confiscate citizens’ legally acquired property because it is politically expedient. Which group of Canadians is next? How about when they want to confiscate SUVs because they’re “getting tough on pollution?” What if your home is in the way of a profitable shopping complex?

    Effectiveness of Gun Control
    Confiscation of lawfully acquired property is a violation of Charter rights, but some maintain that it will cause such a profound reduction in violent crime that it’s “worth it.” So, does confiscation or a gun ban reduce crime? Fortunately, there are other places, very similar to Canada, that have already tried it. Let’s take a look at how well it worked.
    News reports on the success of the Gun Ban and Confiscation in the UK

    A very good Canadian study that examines crime trends in Commonwealth countries that have recently introduced firearm regulations: i.e., Great Britain, Australia, and Canada may be found here.

    “Using cross-sectional time-series data for U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992, we find that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths.” The Chicago Study

    In 1997 the San Diego Police Officers Association polled its members about gun control, and what they believed would be most effective in reducing violent crime. The results were published on 05 May 1997 in their official newsletter, “The Informant.” See the San Diego Police Survey

    “Contemporary scholars have little explored the preconditions of genocide. Still less have they asked whether a society’s weapons policy might be one of the institutional arrangements that contributes to the probability of its government engaging in some of the more extreme varieties of outrage. Though it is a long step between being disarmed and being murdered — one does not usually lead to the other — it is nevertheless an arresting reality that not one of the principal genocides of the twentieth century, and there have been dozens, has been inflicted on a population that was armed.”
    – Daniel D. Polsby, Washington University Law Quarterly, Volume 73, Number 3, Fall 1997.
    See The Relationship Between Gun Control And Genocides

    Politics
    Dirty Politics
    The Liberal government has always known that the gun registry, ban, and confiscation would not work, and would waste our money. Its purpose was to appear to be “doing something” about crime in order to get votes: “The short answer, arrived at by every study of the option in the Department of Justice, was that it would be ruinously expensive, and could actually yield a NEGATIVE public security result…”

  • 00 Buck

    With all the $$ money $$ the cartels have been making,
    and with all the South American and European gunrunners that exsist,
    to think that the cartels have to go to AMERICAN gun shops is stupid.
    This is another lefty plan to demonize firearms.
    Next will be registration, then they will take them away.
    After that we will be at their mercy, and they have no mercy.

  • https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=RLE8CQh9_Eg targets

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