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Angels Among Us

December 18, 2012 by  

Angels Among Us
UPI
Staked into the ground near Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., are wooden angels representing the victims of Friday’s massacre.

I probably started and aborted a dozen different columns before I wrote this one. What happened Friday at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., doesn’t lend itself to easy expression. After all, the massacre which stole away the lives of 27 people, including 20 children, so exceeds the capacity of mere words that even remarks like “words fail me” seem trite and clichéd.

Yet words dominate the discourse in the wake of the tragedy. Of course, the nature of this unimaginable horror engenders the usual debates about gun control. And the usual suspects tread far beyond the borders of dignity in trying to exploit the misery for ideological purposes. I even found myself participating in a fairly civilized discussion featuring a wide variety of viewpoints.

But my heart just wasn’t in it. To be honest, I still can’t bring myself to examine the root causes and long-term ramifications of Friday morning’s waking nightmare. I’m not suggesting the inevitable debates are not worth the time; they are. If we 2nd Amendment supporters want to be heard on topics such as abortion, then we have to be willing to listen to the opposite side on firearms. And there will be time for that talk. I just don’t feel like having it yet.

Don’t mistake my hesitation for excessive emotion; I’m neither avoiding the topic, nor am I trying to attach myself to the tragedy like one of those “victim-by-proxy” types from whom we hear way too much in the wake of every public horror. There is an issue that I want to address, and I think it offers a bit of light in this latest darkness into which a madman has plunged us. A friend of mine, an unrepentant atheist, took to expressing his rage at Friday’s horror by citing it as proof that God doesn’t — couldn’t — exist. Now, this friend of mine is neither stupid nor evil. And I’m willing to cede some space to him. After all, who among us can honestly say in moments like Friday morning that we haven’t shaken our fists and thundered at the Almighty?

But His voice was audible above the din. To be sure, the events which unfolded do quail even the stoutest of hearts. Twenty babies stolen from the world by a soul consumed by darkness; six adults who sacrificed everything to protect those they could. Every bit of the story is sad. It’s hard to imagine finding even a kernel of joy amid such unrelenting pain. Yet the proverbial rose blooms amid the thorns. Those six teachers and administrators at Sandy Hook Elementary gave up their very lives in an effort to save their charges. Against unstoppable evil (not to mention the basic instinct to preserve one’s own life), they charged an armed assailant; they threw themselves into a hail of bullets; they placed themselves directly between certain death and young life.

That’s magnificent. That’s beautiful. That’s miraculous. A world which occasionally produces a monster like Adam Lanza also produced six angels named Victoria Soto, Dawn Hochsprung, Anne Marie Murphy, Lauren Rousseau, Rachel D’Avino and Mary Sherlach. I will bask in the spiritual light of their heavenly sacrifice rather than squat in the shadow of the murderer’s onslaught. Lanza made noise, but theirs are the voices I will hear.

We ask God to tell us why animals like Lanza exist; He answers with Soto, Hochsprung, Murphy, Rousseau, D’Avino and Sherlach. To those who refuse to believe: You’re welcome to deny Him based on what happened Friday morning in Newton. But that doesn’t mean He denies you. And to those who ask how He could allow Lanza to commit such crimes: Without villains, the world has no heroes. Without demons, there can be no angels. Without the crimes of the worst of us, we might never know the grace of our best.

The Almighty allows us the gift of free will. Some squander it, even desecrate it. Others rise to new heights of greatness. I choose to gaze just a while longer at the latter, if only to remind myself that they are — and that they carry me — closer to Him.

–Ben Crystal

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • Jeremy Leochner

    It is such a profound and terrible situation. Its hard to reconcile ones views whatever they may be with such horrific tragedies. I am unsure as to any debate. On the one hand I feel it is important to start a discussion on everything from mental illness to drugs to societal factors to a discussion of gun control. We should discuss such issues so as to prevent another tragedy as best we can. But on the other there is the issue of sensitivity to the victims and the state many are in. I would hate for us to start getting angry with each other when our prime concern should be the victims and trying to make sure their sacrifice was not in vain. I will try and be respectful. I am a supporter of the second amendment as I believe most Americans are. I tend to lean more towards stronger gun control. However I am from California which has the strongest and most strict gun laws and I know they are far too extreme to apply in other places. My understanding is that the weapons used by the shooter were obtained legally. Perhaps we should take a look at Connecticut gun laws. However we also need to discuss factors of mental illness. I understand that some have reported the shooter as being autistic and having Asperger syndrome. As someone with Asperger syndrome I believe that such an individual was more susceptible to illness such as depression and suicidal thinking. However I feel that such an individual still makes choices and needs to be judged by them. That arguing aside I would like to say that I heard today that a petition is going around to award the medal of freedom to Miss Victoria Soto the brave teacher who gave her life to save her students. I urge everyone to go to:

    http://www.petition2congress.com/8692/the-presidential-medal-freedom-award-victoria-soto-other-adults-t/

    Help honor this brave women. Lets ensure that its the name of the hero not the villain that is remembered.

    • Tim L.

      Well said, Jeremy.

      • Robert Smith

        From Ben: “. If we 2nd Amendment supporters want to be heard on topics such as abortion, then we have to be willing to listen to the opposite side on firearms. And there will be time for that talk. I just don’t feel like having it yet.”

        Please feel like it soon. I’ve been an advocate around here that you won’t get any respect for your own freedoms until you give respect to the freedoms of others.

        Rob

      • DaveH

        I have seen few signs of that respect in your comments, Robert.

      • eddie47d

        Ben doesn’t respect anyone in his Saturday diatribes and his compassion is generally minus Zero in everything he says. I wish I could believe what he said today but we’ve been hoodwinked before.

      • Vigilant

        Well, well, there’s a typical Robert Smith move. We have become bored to death with his incessant insertion of “brutal god” comments, almost always when it has nothing to do with the thread of discussion.

        Now, he has the ideal opportunity to make such remarks and he writes about something else.

        Typical Alinsky gambit and the hallmark of a shill.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Thanks Tim

      • Kate8

        This morning I was listening to an interview with Chris Duane, and he was saying to remove all toxic people from your life. He said he also removed toxic trolls from his blog. Why not?, he said. It’s HIS blog.

        I thought, what a great idea.

      • eddie47d

        He’s must not be able to handle the truth either Kate 8. Kind of like my 3 comments to Speedle below where 2 have been deleted.

    • Mikey

      Here is an outstanding article from the point of view of the mother of one of these mentally unstable kids:
      http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

      • Tracy

        Thanks for sharing that, Mikey. History is rife with young men like these, but as we have become more “enlightened” and empathetic, we have eliminated our options for dealing with them. Point of View (Kirby Anderson) had a guest on his mid-day talk radio show yesterday, who has researched the topic of mass-murders, and he stated that there were more of them in the 1940′s than in the late 1900′s, and still more than the current century. Its nothing new, but it may be the thing we need to address, not gun control. If one of those teachers had had a gun….

      • Mike in MI

        Mikey -
        Thanks for the very timely, poignant, great find and for sharing that link with us.
        I agree with that mom that it is high time we had a long, hard, demanding discussion about mental illness, drug companiies’ records, the FDA and the medical system that get well paid to make a sensitive problem really ugly. HIPPAA laws really hide the problems and shield the medical jerks who game the system. As in that lady’s and, if quotes I’ve heard about Mrs. Lanza’s last weeks “losing” her son are accurate, the medical system should be prohibited from doing anything to these mental derangement cases unless they KNOW with what they are dealing. Then try feeding the brain and training the person FIRST. Then, if that is unsuccessful go with the drugs
        The attending doctor who undertakes to go ahead and treat should, also, be required to have his patients MONITORED for an extended period of time. No one knows exactly how these drugs are going to affect any given patient. Even though a DESIRABLE EFFECT MIGHT BE OBTAINED INITIALLY, things can change, literally, “in a heartbeat”. Wards of the patient must be trained in what to look for and report changes immediately … or we’re going to get a whole lot more of the really ugly same – guns or no guns. Lizzy Borden didn’t need no gun.
        There is a special set of psychotropics that can go terribly wrong, really, really fast: Prozac and Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors (SSRI’s). Their effects are legend – among those on the inside (doctors and drug companies). Large numbers of people are given these drugs with little or no warnings as to what must be done if sudden, malign changes in a patient occur.

      • Mike in MI

        Oh, people and Ben C. -
        Try to keep God out of the discussion. He asked us to do things His way and we have refused. He knows how He set up the Universe to funtion in good harmony andorder. If you don’t want that, then, just keep telling God to go to hell. See where it gets you.

        You want science’s best answers or do you want help? Get honest and accurate with His Word or continue to get consequences.

        That’s how we got Obama. Now, you’ve only got One hope of getting rid of it.

    • lj

      Outstanding comments from Ben Crystal.

      Just for clarity, It was against the gun laws of the State of Connecticut for Lanza to have a gun. The guns were stolen from his mother.
      It was against the law for him to have the gun, it was against the law for him to steal the gun, it was against the law to take the guns on school property, it was against the law to threaten people with a gun, and it was against the law to kill people.

      As for gun control: If making guns illegal would get guns off the street. Then why don’t we make Meth and Heroine illegal.

      • Jana

        You are so right. It is also against the law for prisoners in prison to have and take drugs, but they still get them and take them and sell them etc.
        Point well taken.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Getting all guns like getting all drugs off the street is an impossible dream. However there is still a responsibility to try and make things more difficult for those who wish to use guns illegally to obtain a gun. Every law is disobeyed. But that does not mean the laws themselves are pointless.

    • Elda

      And who is the villin again? Oh yea….it is the mentally impaired young man everyone refuses to see for what he was thus placing society in the situation having to watch something like this again and again. That young man suffered in a way no one would ever wish on their worst enemy. Yes, what he did was unthinkably horrible. But did you know that what he suffered was so much worse it caused him to do that deed? If we as care givers don’t address that problem we will see more horror. It is not about guns. It is about mental illness and how we treat it. He was being forced to be something he was not capable of being and he snapped. He used the tools he had been taught to get rid of the pain. We may never know why he picked those kids but if we don’t do something to take care of those damaged like Adam we will loose more lives. Stop seeing only the ones shot as victims, and see all the victims.

      • deerinwater

        I would not begin to think that I knew what Adam went through. The “mind” is a big place. I have an acquaintance who works Geriatrics day in and day out. She has said these souls are having a ball and we are the ones that suffers. It’s just a “point of view” from the trenches of the battle.

        But yes, Society is a victim of life, it’s experiences, hardships and it’s decisions.

        I have a more unflattering opinion and solution, ~ but you would not approve of it if I offered it. So why go there?

        I’m angry, while my anger serves no one.

  • Jim B

    .

    • Mike in MI

      Excellent comment Jim B. -
      Probably the most lucid thing that’ll be said all day. Me included.

  • Karolyn

    Adam Lanza was not an animal, other than in the sense that we are all animals. What this tragedy is bringing to light is the sad state of affairs our ability to address mental illness is in. I’m sure there are many more out there waiting to take their place on the wall of infamy. I’ve recently seen several pieces on TV about the difficulties faced by parents of kids who have mental problems. It is a hard road, with very little help available. I have some experience due to living with a mentally ill person for five years. Until he admitted to psychiatrists that he might harm someone, they could not put him in an institution without his consent no matter how crazy he was. In many cases the hands of the doctors are tied due to current laws. The inability of the medical establishment to come up with treatment options that might help him led to his dying homeless in the street.

    Everything coming to light about Lanza points to a kid who had problems. Unfortunately, his mother did not address them properly, instead teaching him how to use guns. As with anything else, people need to be educated about mental illness, and the stigma needs to disappear. Too many people, especially men, won’t go for help even when it’s available.

    • Robert Smith

      Let’s try a short version of your sentiment Karolyn: If you want to keep your guns give America universal health care so those who have mental issues can be helped before they use one of your guns to kill a bunch of people.

      Rob

      • DaveH

        So little respect for Freedom. So little understanding of what it entails.
        Is that the Liberal Progressive form of “compromise”, Robert? We give up one Freedom and you won’t take the other? Of course it is. And that Folks sums it up in a nutshell. Liberal Progressives have used those very techniques to advance further and further upon our Freedom and our Pocketbooks. It’s time to wake up and fight back.

      • http://Yahoo.com Bill

        Robert – Mental illness could have been addressed prior to Obama care. This animal’s mother evidently didn’t think he needed it. Maybe she needs to be addressed.

      • speedle

        You resort to type Robert Smith. Why can’t you people get it through your thick skulls that we cannot compromise individual liberty – not for the tragic death of 20 children, 50 elderly, 500 nuns, or any other toll some nut bag can run up on any given Sunday.

        If the right to firearms is negotiable, then individual liberty is negotiable. If individual liberty is not sacrosanct, then slavery is negotiable. The Constitution is the only thing standing between us and tyranny.

        Yes, the government needs to fear us (the public), and our guns. It keeps their (leaders) ambitions and delusions of power in check. You new age progressive dolts think the history of the world centers around what has gone on in your own lifetimes, as if the atrocities foisted on citizens by Hitler, Stalin and Mao occurred on another planet or in the funny papers. How many children do you think these “righteously motivated” statists murdered? The first thing they did was disarm the population. This country is 230 years old, and this kind of crap has been going on for thousands of years. You would think that you morons would learn the lessen. Idiots

      • Robert Smith

        “Maybe she needs to be addressed.”

        Really? She was employed by the school.

        It’s like Dick Chanie’s daughter is gay. I doubt that’ the way he wanted it.

        Same here. The kid was screwed up, but do you really want to blame the parent?

        Rob

        • Deerinwater

          Hmm? I need to see some evidence that this young man breached some security that restricted access to these weapons, ~ broken chains, ~ blown safes ~ I want to see hacksaw marks, pinch bar marks, 8 pound mallet dents, ~ how did the breach occur ~ or was in a Cookie Jar Caper?

          I need to know such things before I pass judgement on the person(s) that buy and claimed ownership of these weapon used to kill innocent children and adults in charge of their keep.

          I must know this.

      • Robert Smith

        Spiddle says: “Why can’t you people get it through your thick skulls that we cannot compromise individual liberty”

        Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhtttttttt……..

        Unless it’s the individual liberty of someone else.

        Please tell that to the women of America who want birth control and abortion without the right wing (figuratively) huffing and puffing between their legs.

        Please tell that to the thousands of folks in jail for pot.

        Please tell that to those who want assisted suicide.

        Clue: If you want your guns you really should respect the freedoms of others.

        BTW, I’m a former NRA instructor and I have a permit to carry in my home state.

        I really think it’s dumb that unlike my ability to drive anywhere in America because I’m qualified at home that I am told to put my gun away when I travel.

        Rob

      • eddie47d

        Speedle: The Second Amendment doesn’t have to be touched. Nothing in that Amendment says that everybody or anybody is allowed to carry a Semi-Automatic weapon. NOTHING! There never should have been the reckless availability of any multi-magazine weapon and there is no guarantee of owning or using such a weapon. Peoples lives are being COMPROMISED because of those weapons not the lack of them!

      • Kate8

        Come on, people. How long are you going to allow yourselves to be skull-plugged.

        http://beforeitsnews.com/strange/2012/12/more-massacres-until-gun-laws-enacted-insider-2446078.html

      • Kate8

        Video of CIA admitting to using the media to skull-plug Americans, all along.

        http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2012/12/cia-admits-using-news-to-manipulate-the-usa-1975-2446814.html

      • hipshotpercusion

        Robert, I’m a gun owner, but, unlike Lanza’s mother, I keep mine in a safe, except for the pistol I religiously carry for self protection because I am a disabled person.

      • Kate8

        And, you want a really stunning read? This one is a must…all the way to the end:

        http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/Operation-Rampage-Killing-by-Melanie-Lamport-121214-766.html

        The only way we are going to save ourselves is through INFORMATION. Unless we get it, we will continue to be putty in the hands of our controllers, and their plans for us are not good.

        BTW, there have been other shootings of late: one in Oregon a few days ago, which was foiled by an armed citizen (too inonvenient for the media to dwell on), and another in Antonio yesterday.

        http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/shooting-mayan-14-theater-showing-the-hobbit-in-san-antonio-tx-121712-2516726.html

        Considering how they all follow more or less the same pattern, are we starting to smell a rat yet?

      • Kate8

        As is predictable, the Leftist shills are out in force, calling for gun confiscation. Duh.

        This site has their stuff taken down all the time…too close to the truth.

        http://vaticproject.blogspot.com/

        BTW, has anyone see how the Left is calling for the murder of NRA officials, gun owners and anyone who supports the 2nd Amendment? This from the party who claims to abhor violence.

        This is all FAKE people! It’s all about disarming America. The things which this government is doing can only lead IN ONE DIRECTION… death and tyranny to the people!

        I mean, for God’s sake, we’re being surveilled from everywhere… drones are watching and equipped to take out any number of us at any time. The police are clamping down on us more and more, and innocent people are dying from being tasered and beaten and no one says a word. Increasing numbers of us are being sacrificed every day in the name of “homeland security”, and we don’t bat an eye until they go after the kids.

        And they would have us believe they give a flying fig about OUR safety?

        If this were not so, why would they be taking these measures against us? Why would they not just simply allow things to go on as before… But NO. They are inflicting terror, violence and oppression in increasing intensity every day now, taking away every choice we ever had.

        GET A CLUE PEOPLE! And pray we haven’t gone beyond the point of no return.

      • boyscout

        Robert, Lanza’s mental health was kinda sorta addressed through the wonders of big pharma miracle pills. ie. here, take these 2 – 3Xs a day, they’re safe and work, we tested ‘em ourself, no wories. Oh, and let us know if you get any side effects that we overlooked by not bothering to look. Yer shrink says they good too and believes everything we told him at the win&dine and he sure appreciates the kickbacks.

        You are right on though, Mental Health IS the issue and not faux assault rifles, the Devil, or God’s retribution for gay marriage. Bodily health, mental health, and soscietal health truly are interconnected. Damn the system; damn the corruption, and damn the FDA.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “BTW, I’m a former NRA instructor and I have a permit to carry in my home state”.
        Now there’s a Good argument for gun-control.

      • DaveH

        Eddie says — “Speedle: The Second Amendment doesn’t have to be touched. Nothing in that Amendment says that everybody or anybody is allowed to carry a Semi-Automatic weapon. NOTHING!”.

        From Merriam-Webster:
        Arms — a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially: firearm.

        The Second Amendment:
        “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

        Sure looks like SOMETHING to me, Eddie.

      • DaveH

        Good posts, Kate8. Thank you for your service.

      • eddie47d

        How’s that “free state ” working out for you Dave H. How many dead bodies does it take before you really give a rat’s patute? Now you keep skipping down the street whistling Dixie into your La La Land. We just had 2 shooting in the county north of us while I was posting my other comment. Four dead in one case and 5 dead in another and oh yes they weren’t “big city” killings either. Longmont is about as white as you can get . I know how some of the posters like to bring up minorities as the reason they need their guns so in someone else wants to jump in. There is nothing free about any mass killings and those semi-automatics take away alot of freedoms for some folks.

      • speedle

        I hit the wrong “reply”. repost

        Eddie, you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. “Semi automatic weapons”? 90% of the “handguns” made are “semi automatic”. The AR-15 is no more dangerous than any other rifle, probably less dangerous than a shotgun depending on the surroundings. Maybe if we outlawed everything other than muskets you would be satisfied.

        In the meantime the gang thugs, dope dealers, carjackers, home invaders, terrorists, nut bags like Lanza, bank robbers, and the ATF will still have their MAC-10s, uzis, etc., and they will have no fear of you morons who disarm yourself of everything but pea shooters and an in depth understanding and appreciation of the social consequences of underprivileged upbringing.

      • Kate8

        eddie – The real question should be, why do you and your commie cohorts continue to defend these inhuman psychopaths who keep perpetrating these events in order to accomplish their real ends?

        If you were truly concerned about humanity, you’d do like others of us and research EVERY fact (and circumstance) about these events. Anyone with half a mite of sense can see that there is something more here than meets the eye.

        If you were true, you’d be interested in programs like MKUltra, which is now in the open, and was written about and exposed by people like William Cooper (who was killed for it) and others (also killed), and how things are now unfolding precisely as planned.

        But no, eddie. You don’t care about the truth, because truth is not your agenda. You are here to protect the lie, to promote the horrific CONSPIRACY to bring America to her knees, to eliminate tens of millions who DO seek truth and stand for freedom, and to help to bring out and identify them. You are here to help bring about the total slavery of all humanity, thinking that you will be exempted. Or, perhaps, you are already cyborged enough that you will sell your country out for ??? money? And your relentless presence here, indeed, shows your commitment to what you are doing.

        We are getting it, ed. We’ve got your number. Whether you are actually aware of what is afoot or not, you are protecting those who wish us great harm. Anyone who so staunchly promotes the official storyline and turns a deaf ear and blind eye to investigation which questions the government’s involvement, is a fraud, a tool, a shill… and dare I say, guilty of treason against his country.

      • Jana

        Kate 8,
        You said it and you said it well.
        eddie is a distorter of the truth. He definitely has a problem.

      • eddie47d

        That was alot of words for saying nothing Kate 8. I refuse to listen to your junk conspiracies Kate for I would rather trust the known facts rather your attempts to slice and dice those facts. I know you think your right no matter what “real proof” you put out but your wrong too many times to be believable.

      • Jana

        Kate 8,
        eddie has taught me a valuable lesson. When I first got on this site, I thought that he was someone worthy of respect, even though I didn’t agree with his philosophy or ideologies. However the lesson he taught me was that he is petty, vindictive and only uses the truth when it is for his convenience.
        He is most definitely NOT worthy of my respect.

      • DaveH

        Eddie says — “How’s that “free state ” working out for you Dave H. How many dead bodies does it take before you really give a rat’s patute?”.
        I would ask you the same thing, Eddie, since you’re the one helping to disarm the victims.
        Do you read any of the links I post, Eddie, you ignoramus?
        The murder rate climbed until 1993, even in the face of increasing gun-control, and then started declining after more and more states jumped on the concealed-carry band-wagon. It’s now down about 9,000 victims a year from 1993, no doubt due to an increasing number of people who have decided to fight back, no thanks to you ignorant gun-grabbers.
        What gets me is the fact that you’ve been hanging around this board, pestering us, for years now , Eddie, and you still haven’t learned much of anything about reality.

      • Kate8

        eddie – The fact that you consider the only “facts” to be the “official” story says all we need to know.

        Anyone who trusts government as much as you do can only be either really stupid or has an interest in siding with them.

        Read my lips: THERE ARE MANY CONSPIRACIES AFOOT. Yep. I said it. CONSPIRACIES CONSPIRACIES CONSPIRACIES CONSPIRACIES CONSPIRACIES..

      • Robert Smith

        From Bill: “This animal’s mother evidently didn’t think he needed it. ”

        “EXCLUSIVE: Nancy Lanza feared son, Adam, was ‘getting worse’; told friend ‘he was burning himself with a lighter’ and that she was ‘losing him’

        Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nancy-lanza-feared-son-adam-worse-article-1.1221505#ixzz2FRhr60L2

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        Here is another one for Bill from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249452/Nancy-Lanzas-chilling-instructions-babysitter-Never-turn-Adam.html

        Check out: “When he was freshman at high school he was flagged to the school security chief.”

        Rob

      • Jana

        So Robert Smith,
        He could have easily been manipulated to do this. Ergo this is why the police are dotting all their i’s and crossing all their t’s, and not telling the whole story.

      • eddie47d

        Where’s the distortions Jana? Prove the distortions in what I said or forever hold your piece. Your like someone else on this site who makes accusations about folks as you just did but never back it up. Be specific!

      • Jeremy Leochner

        There are two key things I notice about the second amendment.

        1: The founding fathers made the first amendment the one about free speech and free press. I take that to mean that the founders put more faith in the spoken and written word then in force of arms. Hence they developed a system of representational democracy for our country as opposed to one where the guys with the guns make the rules.

        2: Within the second amendment itself the first line speaks of a well regulated militia being necessary for the safety of a free state. So the founders mentioned regulations in the second amendment so they obviously considered the important of regulation regarding guns. Its no surprise since the bulk of the American forces in the initial battles of the revolution were militia forces made up of local forces. And in not a few battles many Americans used their own personal weapons to face a threat to their dream of independence. I imagine the founders viewed personal protection more as a safe guard against foreign invasion which is what they viewed the British as, as well as against hostile Indian attacks. I hate to say it but I believe if we are going to have an originalist interpretation of the second amendment I would guess the founders viewed the right to bear arms as essential for those who hunted for a living, sought to protect themselves from foreign invasion and protection from Indian attacks. So when I hear discussions about gun free zones and pretty much any form of gun control being denounced as anti second amendment I have to say it sounds like a different viewing of the constitution then what the founders had intended. It sounds as if the constitution is a living document that must be adapted to individual and modernizing circumstances. And I thought that’s what we anti constitution liberals always did. Its weird to hear people who denounce liberals for being against what the founders intended doing it.

      • Kate8

        Jeremy – Nice try at spin, but the founders intended the right to bear arms primarily as defense against an overreaching government. That was made very clear.

        As for the militia…just of whom do you think that consists? It consists of all patriots, whether they bear arms or not… well regulated means organized from within, not regulated by government. In fact, they stand ready to defend against government.

        Congress cannot repeal an Amendment just like that. They’ll try, but it will only be allowed to stand if we relent. And I don’t think that will happen…not without a big fight.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Kate I respect your views. I offer this.

        1: I was not trying to spin. I agree the founders intended the right to bear arms and militias as a defense against over reaching government. However since our government has not reached nor is any where near the level of over reaching that requires armed defense I do not see that as an issue. Being too afraid of government is just as bad as not being afraid enough. The reason I believe the government is not reached the level of over reaching that requires armed defense is we still have massive public demonstrations against members of all branches of government as well as our elections and voting process which while hardly fair still take place and still push against the politicians. Obama nearly lost the election. Those controlling governments that force the people to defend themselves against it with guns tend to win elections in land slides.

        2: I understand what militias are made of. But like the armed forces, the police and any other organization of power there needs to be over sight. We the people do not let the government police itself, we do. By the same token militias need to be monitored. There are numerous groups that call themselves militias who are hardly patriotic in their intentions. Whether the group calling itself The Covenant, The Sword and The Arm of the lord or the Black Panther Party. Such groups often use the phrase militia to describe themselves. Yet neither group can really be trusted to police themselves.

        3: No one is trying to repeal any thing. When people propose laws against slander and libel they are not trying to repeal the first amendment. When people propose laws to promote gun control they are not proposing to repeal the second amendment.

      • DaveH

        No Jeremy (aka Flashman), Kate8 was right. You are spinning. What part of — “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” — do you not understand? Do I need to post the meaning of “infringed” for you?

      • Jeremy Leochner

        No Dave you do not have to give me any definitions. Banning weapons does violate the second amendment. I disagree with banning guns. However I do not believe that waiting periods or background checks infringe on peoples rights to keep and bear arms. Just to prove my consideration of this here is the definition of infringe from merriam websters: 1
        : to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another
        2
        obsolete : defeat, frustrate

        Once a person has a gun they have the gun. What I am trying to focus on is what the debate over gun control has turned into. Its turned into a slugging match that is presented as Gun Rights V Gun Control. I think this is wrong. My point is I believe everyone including the founding fathers support some level of restriction or regulation or oversight or whatever word you wish to use, basically control on guns. In the same way that we expect journalists to not lie and seek retribution against them if they do, so we place limits in relation to the buying and carrying of a gun. One cannot say whatsoever one wants regardless of the facts or circumstances. Also one cannot buy or carry a gun whensoever or wheresoever one wishes. One may keep a gun that is theirs, that is the constitution and I will not challenge it. One may carry a gun as one wishes. Though I feel gun permits are not a violation of that. Laws and rules are not the enemy or opposite of freedom and liberty. I know big brother used similar double speak to oppress and control people. I do not wish to oppress people and the only control I seek to impose on people is that which should be in the form of laws. As I would wish people to obtain a license and insurance before being allowed to drive or buy a car so I would wish people to have to go through some form of bureaucracy in order to have a gun. I know bureaucracy can be corrupted and misused. But the system itself is not evil. If it is used for good it can do great good. As any person can be bad or good depending on their actions so a government can be bad or good based on the actions of those who make it up. Gun control needs to be monitored and adjusted from time to time whether for less or more. The point I am trying to make is that gun control is not the enemy or the problem. Ineffective and over zealous gun control is the problem. Insufficient and poorly enforced gun control is the problem. Lack of concern for the dangers of guns is the problem. Lack of proper understanding of how to recognize and help the mentally ill is the problem. The issues we suffer from are complex and need to be dealt with. We may be polar opposites on most issues Dave. But I think even you and I can have at least some agreement on the issues our country faces.

    • speedle

      Eddie, you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. “Semi automatic weapons”? 90% of the “handguns” made are “semi automatic”. The AR-15 is no more dangerous than any other rifle, probably less dangerous than a shotgun depending on the surroundings. Maybe if we outlawed everything other than muskets you would be satisfied.

      In the meantime the gang thugs, dope dealers, carjackers, home invaders, terrorists, nut bags like Lanza, bank robbers, and the ATF will still have their MAC-10s, uzis, etc., and they will have no fear of you morons who disarm yourself of everything but pea shooters and an in depth understanding and appreciation of the social consequences of underprivileged upbringing.

      • eddie47d

        Sure do and this is my third response to you Speedle and the first two were deleted.

      • speedle

        My, how well you defend your views Eddie. It sounds like what 6 year old kids in Kindergarten use to prove their point – “Is so! , “Is not” “Is so”, etc. Let me ask it straight up, do you know the definition of a “semi automatic weapon”? It seems this would be the minimum level of knowledge one should have who wants to ban such weapons – don’t you think?

    • Mike in MI

      Karolyn -
      Go take a gander at the link Mikey above posted.
      You’re right, Adam Lanza was not an animal. Animals ordinarily don’t go so low – except serpents – like, the one Eve spoke to.
      If you can talk so kindly of this bird I’ll bet your friends are a real bunch of loouies!

      • Kate8

        If this person is an MKUltra victim, which I’d say is more than likely, he is as much a victim as those kids. I know some of these young people who have been mind-controlled…they hear voices and are driven crazy by them. They’ve been traumatized and abused during their time under government detention, and their young lives have been completely destroyed.

        Let’s not judge this young man. He is one of many, and there are many more. They aren’t even aware of what they are doing, they are so drugged up and hypnotized, and even implanted with microchips.

        There is a lot of doubt about who did the actual shooting, anyway. Just like in the other shooting incidents, there are things which don’t add up, discrepacies in the stories, and eyewitnesses who are silenced. These young people are patsies in something so diabolical… what we need to do is pray for all of them. And then we must demand the truth, which is being revealed ever day now, for those who are willing to look at it.

  • joe berger

    this whole thing really makes me wonder.
    Our “drones” kill “terrorist” kids almost every week.
    We deliberately slaughtered at least 40,000 kids in one night at Dresden.
    AT least 20,000 kids at Tokyo … at Hiroshima … at Nagasaki… the latter two causing life long suffering through radiation burns. Kids… all deliberately targeted.
    How many kids did we kill in vietnam? in Iraq.?
    One mentally ill guy kills 20 kids and the whole country bleats and brays ad nauseum.
    what a bunch of sanctimonious self righteous hypocrites. !!!!

    • Robert Smith

      Joe, you might want to consider the difference between a war to save America and social issues.

      Clue: One is a threat to America from without that we can do nothing about except death and destruction. The other is within that we can do something about through mental health care, and maybe some COMMON SENSE gun laws.

      By common sense I mean education, revision of the “local” attitude that says you can carry here, but not there, and reasonable efforts in the home to keep firearms (except one for each adult that should be under their direct control) secure.

      Rob

      • DaveH

        Threats to America? You have drunk all the Kool-Aid, Robert. And the Leaders appreciate your blind loyalty.
        But that what we’re here for — to stop others from being equally Brainwashed.
        There is no common sense in your comment, Robert. Schools have been gun-free zones for a very long time. Yet, ironically (at least in Liberal Progressive minds), they remain a magnet for nut-jobs with murder on their minds. And the Liberal Progressives roll out the red carpet for them by preventing the teachers and school administrators from protecting their charges.
        Fact #1: Connecticut is ranked number 5 by the Brady Campaign in gun control.
        Fact #2: New Jersey (where the shooter came from) is ranked number 2 in gun control.

        Gun controllers were complicit in the killings. They have behaved like the guys who restrain a victim while the perp pounds him into oblivion. You, Robert, are just an accessory to murder.

      • Cliffystones

        I agree 100% on education. Even people who choose not to own guns would do themselves a great service by attending a gun safety class. Being able to identify certain characteristics of firearms and understanding the difference between reality and Hollywood would go a long way in a meaningful dialogue on gun laws.

        The issue with so many laws now on the books is that they do nothing more than make otherwise law-abiding gun owners choose between exercising their right to carry or risking arrest. The theater shooting in Aurora CO is a prime example. The theater had a no carry policy, so anyone who had the lawful permits had to leave their weapon locked in their car, or risk losing the permits The same with schools, malls and other public places that have become these “gun free zones”. Only the whack-jobs hell-bent on a high body count, or someone who doesn’t have anything to lose carries there.

        I own and carry a S&W Airweight revolver with a bodyguard (shrouded) hammer. I could throw that puppy loaded down a flight of stairs and the only harm it would cause is to itself and possibly scratch a step or two. It fits completely in my jean pocket, and leaves no profile. It’s a shame when I have to leave it locked in my car, not because anyone would be in danger from it, but because some bureaucrats decided to make me a criminal if I bring it with me. Since I have property, investments, a great credit score, no criminal record, and two school age kids, I’m loathe to risk what I’ve built up. It’s not my revolver that creates that risk. It’s the act of breaking one of those useless, stupid laws that would land me in a legal situation.

      • Robert Smith

        DaveH says: “Gun controllers were complicit in the killings.”

        Just as those who deny age appropriate sex education in schools are complicit in unwanted teenage pregnancy and disease.

        Just as those who deny abortion (as recently occurred in Ireland) are complicit in the death of that woman.

        Just as those who deny the freedom of choosing one’s own intoxicant (as in alcohol vs. pot) are responsible for so many in jail.

        BTW DaveH, I’m not opposed to carrying firearms. If you look at some of my other posts I’m an advocate that like a driver’s license if one qualifies to carry in one place they are qualified in all places.

        Please quit misrepresenting my position on firearms.

        Now, how’s ’bout discussing all freedoms in America?

        Rob

      • DaveH

        I guess it was just my imagination, Robert, that you posted this:
        “The other is within that we can do something about through mental health care, and maybe some COMMON SENSE gun laws”.
        Yeah I know, Robert, “common sense” means doing it your way. The only trouble is that I see little common sense in your comments.
        Real common sense would be to punish those who misuse the weapons and NOT disarm those who don’t — thus making them helpless victims to any criminal.
        As I said earlier, the blood of those children is on the hands of those who, like yourself Robert, have disarmed those people who could have otherwise have saved those children.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Now, how’s ’bout discussing all freedoms in America?”.
        You’re a Liberal Progressive, Robert, which implies that you only support Freedoms that you yourself advocate. Obviously, with that frame of mind as possessed by Freedom-taking Progressives of both major bents (Liberal and Neoconservative) we can never hope to see Real Freedom.

      • DaveH

        Freedom is that ability to control your own body and your own property absent the coercion of Big Government as long as you don’t physically trespass on the bodies and property of others.
        Freedom can’t be traded like baseball cards, Robert. You’re either for it or against it.

      • Karolyn

        Dave – In none of the news or interviews I have read or heard has anyone said anything about disarming American citizens. Although I have seen liberals freaking out, nobody with any authority or influence has talked about taking away everybody’s guns. However, I have heard gun proponents talking cooperative effort.

      • DaveH

        “There are none so blind as those who will not see”, Karolyn.
        The signs are all around us. All you need do is come in from the field of tulips and open your eyes. Once the guns are banned it will be too late for anybody to do anything about it. I know you won’t read this, but I’ll post it for people who really want to learn:
        http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

      • Robert Smith

        DavidH says: “Yeah I know, Robert, “common sense” means doing it your way. ”

        Are you opposed to age appropriate gun safety classes being taught in schools?

        That’s my way.

        Are you opposed to the notion that like a drivers’ license a gun permit makes one able to carry not just in one jurisdiction but everywhere?

        That’s my way.

        Are you opposed to the idea that a spouse can keep their firearms until the police actually have a REASON to take the guns and not just the word of a lawyer representing other spouse?

        That’s my way.

        Are you opposed to non-violent criminals (after some period of time like ten years) might (if they have no further offenses) be CONSIDERED to get their voting rights back and have the ability to own a firearm (after hearings open to the public)?

        That’s my way.

        Rob

      • Jana

        Dave H,
        You always give sites for us to go to and learn. I love that.
        I will read that book on line too, a little at a time LOL. Thank you.

      • DaveH

        Thank you, Jana.
        If you’re talking about this book:
        http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Vol_2.pdf
        Yes, it is very long. It was originally broken up into 4 volumes. I downloaded the pdf file to my Kindle so I can sit in my easy chair and read it. It is a very interesting book, but I have to look up words a lot in the built-in dictionary (another nice thing about the Kindle) as Rothbard likes to exercise his wide range of vocabulary. Sometimes he’s hard to follow, largely because he gives overviews and then later in the book develops them more thoroughly. I’m loving it.

    • scott

      500,000 killed in Iraq as a direct result of the sanctions in the 90′s. Madeleine Albright said it was worth it!

    • Karolyn

      I’ve had similar thoughts, Joe. What about the people who live in countries where children are killed every single day? How about the Palestinians, who lose children to the Jews every time there’s a flareup? In Africa children die by the thousands each year due to hunger, and they are recruited by warlords to fight.

      • http://Yahoo.com Bill

        I don’t need to hear about the Palastinians – They bring it on themselves.

      • Vigilant

        Karolyn says, “How about the Palestinians, who lose children to the Jews every time there’s a flareup?”

        So you’re saying that Palestinian children are superior to Jewish children? Terrorist bombings have killed many Jewish children.

        You conveniently forget a crucial difference: innocent Jewish children are TARGETED for extermination by the Palestinians, while Palestinian children are NOT targeted for death by Israelis.

      • Karolyn

        Palestine always loses way more people than Israel. My point, and something I’ve been thinking about since Friday is that there are countries where children being killed is an everyday occurrence.

      • Vigilant

        I repeat, “You conveniently forget a crucial difference: innocent Jewish children are TARGETED for extermination by the Palestinians, while Palestinian children are NOT targeted for death by Israelis.”

        A distinction you fail to face.

      • DaveH

        Yeah, they need to kill those savage heathens before they get killed by them:
        http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

    • eddie47d

      So apparently the Newtown massacre wasn’t enough for Joe Berger and he wants more. He goes for the bigger events with more casualties to impress his mental capacity. You are the one who is sanctimonious Joe.

    • ranger09

      Joe, TO MANY in these useless wars we call them, and believe me we could care less about these Kids or their families we killed and called CD. In VietNam ,Iraq, and Afganistan a kids live was worth about 500-1000 dollars to US.Well we dont care because we call them our enemy. And you know i dont believe anything that its for our freedom. Only Freedom problem we have is here at home.

    • Mike in MI

      Joe Berger -
      Real great parallel thinking there, boy!
      As in parallel universes?

  • hipshotpercusion

    Many years ago Israel had a problem with school and bus shootings. Their solution was to arm the teachers and principles in their schools. No problems since. If just one or two of the Angles named above had been armed, things might have been different, but, we will never know. May Christ embrace the 27 souls who came to him Friday.

    • Robert Smith

      Question: Can you name ONE mass shooting that was ended by a citizen?

      I do remember that in the tower shootings a citizen gave his hunting rifel to a policeman to help pin down the perp, but that didn’t end the shooting, it simply slowed it down to given the police time for other plans to be put into operation.

      Rob

      • chocopot

        The various shootings (or potential shootings) that are ended by armed citizens almost always are stopped before the shooter can cause much, or even any, damage. And with the extreme leftist agenda of the MSM, those incidents, which are more frequent than most people know, are NEVER reported since such information is not part of their agenda. A search of the internet will back up what I am saying. An armed society is a polite society. Israel and Switzerland do it right, with guns in every home and nearly every place of business.

      • DaveH
      • DaveH
      • DaveH
      • Brad from TX

        Ni I can’t Rob because the MAM want talkk about these situations only the ones that help push their agenda

      • Brad from TX

        sorry my fingers are still asleep I guess. I meant to say No Rob, MSM wont speak of these issue to further their agenda

      • eddie47d

        The NRA is totally silent and should bury itself in embarrassment for pushing for looser laws in our land. They are just as guilty as Adam Lana and his mother in thinking guns are the problem solvers of our society.

      • eddie47d

        Gun laws in Switzerland are tied into military service and strictly regulated by the government. Civilians don’t own guns nilly willy over there as you presume Chocopot. Israel laws are also tied into rapid military response and not crime,hunting or personal protection.

      • DaveH

        Eddie says — “The NRA is totally silent and should bury itself in embarrassment for pushing for looser laws in our land”.
        You should bury your head, Eddie. You are an embarrassment to Good People across this country.
        The statistics show that violent crime has been decreasing in our country at the same time that Concealed Carry Shall-Issue laws have been proliferating. The gun grabbers have no logical arguments and they have no experiential evidence to back up their malarkey.
        More Guns, Less Crimes:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ8L7nqL1rs&feature=related

        Gun control is being pushed by Leaders for one reason only — to eventually convince us to sheepishly disarm ourselves so they have no more fear of citizen reprisal to their enslavement of the citizens. If they can so callously help themselves to our money and lives now, imagine how it will be when they succeed in disarming us?
        Of course they will use every trick in the book, as they always have, to get their way — Propaganda being the biggest trick of all. And unwitting dupes like Eddie act as their agents in the spread of that Propaganda.

      • Robert Smith

        DaveH says, and says, and says…

        I read the American Rifleman and see the clips each month where an individual protected himself.

        The question was: Have any mass shootings been stopped?

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        From Brad: “Ni I can’t Rob because the MAM want talkk about these situations only the ones that help push their agenda”

        Not even on Fox news?

        Can you even get something from Rush?

        FACT: Mass shootings are different. They have little to do with firearms and lots to do with mental issues.

        Clue: Get universal health care and address issues of someone who might go off BEFORE they go off.

        Won’t get ‘em all, but the shooter in VA at the school was clearly in therapy, along with the guy at the movie theater, and neither was able to continue mental health care when their circumstances changed.

        How can someone call themselves “pro-life” and deny universal health care?

        Rob

      • Brad from TX

        Here is one from just Sunday night:

        Armed, Off-Duty Cop Prevents Mass Shooting In San Antonio

        WOAI: SAN ANTONIO – Gunfire erupted at the Mayan Palace Theatre on Southwest Military Sunday night just before 9:30 pm. This shooting comes just days after a deadly rampage at a school in Connecticut and sparks memories of the the mass slaying at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo.

        An armed off-duty deputy working security was able to take down the shooter before he could kill anyone.

        Investigators tell News 4 WOAI the gunman is 19-year-old Jesus Manuel Garcia. They say he worked at the China Garden restaurant right next to the Mayan Palace Theater. Police say Garcia opened fire at China Garden because of relationship problems with his girlfriend who also worked at the restaurant, although she was not present at the time. Officers explain that Garcia then continued to fire his weapon across the parking lot and into the theater. Garcia even opened fire on a San Antonio Police Department patrol car explained Detective Lou Antu, spokesman for the Bexar County Sherriff’s Office.

        “Everybody was just coming out of the side of the theater, running out the emergency exits. And everyone was screaming and running,” explained a moviegoer named Megan.

        Garcia was finally stopped by a deputy who was working an off-duty job at the theater. The deputy shot Garcia four times. “The officer involved, she took the appropriate action to try to keep everyone safe in the movie theater,” Antu said. Antu says the gunman never made it into the theater itself, thanks largely to the heroic work of the off duty deputy. “She did what she felt she had to do,” Antu said. “I feel that she saved a lot of lives by taking the action she had to take.” Garcia has since undergone surgery and is in stable condition at San Antonio Military Medical Center (SAMMC). He’s being charged with aggravated assault for shooting at an officer and shooting a bystander. That bystander is listed in stable condition.

      • Vigilant

        “How can someone call themselves “pro-life” and deny universal health care?”

        Indeed, how can someone call themselves “pro-choice” and deny choice to those who opt to not be covered by universal health care?

        • Deerinwater

          Vigilant says. “Indeed, how can someone call themselves “pro-choice” and deny choice to those who opt to not be covered by universal health care?”

          You are denying the fact that they do have this choice. Why must you find this need to deny it? It might sound good for your argument , but it just is not so Vigilant.

      • eddie47d

        These massacures and attempted massacures occur quite often. The same day as the Newtown killing there was an event unfolding in Hartleville Oklahoma and before Newtown. This kid had brought guns to school and was recruiting other kids to join him. The police were called and kept them from going through with their horrible deed. In other words its wide spread and getting harder to monitor. The day after Newtown their were two shootouts in the Birmingham area. Someone with an AK-47 was shooting at people and killed three including two children. A few miles away there was a shootout at a hospital were the shooter was killed but not before he injured the officer and a few nurses. None of those events would have happened without the use of weapons. Enough of this crap that people don’t kill more often with guns and yes it does make it far more easy.

      • Jana

        Brad,
        They just reported on the news here that the shooter at the Oregon Mall was taken down by a Conceal Carrier.
        That has certainly been hushed up.

      • hipshotpercusion

        Robert, yes I can. The Trolly mall in Salt Lake City Utah, or the lady who held a ccw permit in CO who killed a would be mass murderer. Civilian use of defensive firearms is largely under reported by the media.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        hipshotpercussion: Civilian use of defensive firearms is largely under reported by the media.

        Gee, i wonder why???

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “The question was: Have any mass shootings been stopped?”.
        Obviously you didn’t read the articles that I linked to. So why bother asking the question if you don’t bother reading the answers?
        Have many of the mass shootings been stopped by disarmed victims, Robert?

      • DaveH

        Mass shooting victims since 1986 have numbered a little less than 1000 people.
        Not to trivialize the deaths of those unfortunate victims, but that amounts to a little over 30 victims a year.
        Now compare that to the number of murder victims in 2011 alone — 14,612.
        But significantly, that number has been going down since 1993 when it was 24,530. Also significant is that Concealed Carry Shall Issue permits have been increasingly proliferating throughout the states since 1986 with the exception of a few like New Jersey, California, and Connecticut:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rtc.gif

      • eddie47d

        Jana: The shooter in the Portland Mall shot himself but nice try with that feel good attempt!

      • eddie47d

        See what we have to put up with Dave H Incessant lies about these situation. Besides Jana …HIPERCUSHION also told a whopper about Concealed Carry. The Salt Lake City Trolley Mall killer was taken down by the Salt Lake City SWAT Team not a person from Colorado. There was also an off duty police office Ken Hammond who kept him pinned down and an on duty police officer Andrew Oblad who helped. Funny how facts are demanded from the right but they lie in presenting theirs!.

      • Jana

        eddie,
        You are right. It was Utah they were talking about.
        you still didn’t tell us what Uniion you belonged to. I didn’t ask for the history of your sad life. Since you are so reluctant to tell us what Union you belonged to we now know you are ashamed to tell us because you fabricated (lied) about the Union you were supposed to belong to. Now we can’t believe whatever you would tell us about which one it was because you have had too much time to look up an innocuous one.

      • Vigilant

        Deer says, “You are denying the fact that they do have this choice. Why must you find this need to deny it? It might sound good for your argument, but it just is not so Vigilant.”

        Deer, what is your definition of “coercion?” All the word-mincing in the world doesn’t change the fact that if you don’t choose to be covered, then you pay a hefty fine.

        Employing the rules of the English language, yes, you literally “have a choice.” In reality, your choices are three: pay for the program, pay a fine and get no benefits, or refuse to pay the fine and suffer the legal consequences.

        That, my friend, is no choice at all.

        • deerinwater

          Deer, what is your definition of “coercion?”

          Very good Vigilant! ~ you are correct ! but still the choice is still yours to make, your are only finding your choice expensive. Right?

          I am coerced by someone everyday. ~ I have government and then a brother attempting to coerce me today. Women, men. friends, lovers, enemies , they all offer us Coercion.

          But I have a choice,~ in some cases I choose to ignore, some I comply and some, I call their bluff. So the notion of “no choice” is just not so, ~ you just don’t approve of your choices.

          So? I ask, What is new?

      • Jana

        eddie,
        Concealed Weapons Carrier Saves Others From Stabbings at Salt Lake City, Utah Grocery Store!

        Read more: http://clashdaily.com/2012/07/concealed-weapons-carrier-saves-others-from-stabbings-at-salt-lake-city-utah-grocery-store/#ixzz2FRMeF7ST
        Get more Clash on ClashDaily.com, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.ie,
        You need to learn truth from your fiction!

      • eddie47d

        I wouldn’t lie like you do Jana! I also asked where did you work but no response so what does your silliness prove? That your a slick talker!

      • eddie47d

        So Jana attempts to make me “pay” for her screw up. I think YOU need to learn from your “fiction” and move on in life or at least stay closer to what I said.

      • DaveH

        I see where you’re coming from, Eddie.
        You know you’re a lying slandering Troll, so you project that behavior onto other Good People.
        Point out any lies that I’ve told, Eddie. Otherwise shut your lying slandering Troll mouth.

      • Kate8

        People, people, people…

        Please bear in mind that not Congress, not the POTUS, not SCOTUS have the power to repeal an Amendment to the Constitution.

        I could be mistaken here (I guess I should look it up), but does it not take a majority of states to enact a Consitutional Amendment? If that is so, then I would hope it takes the same to repeal it.

        Congress is enacting all sorts of unConstitutional garbage, and it only flies because we bow down and accept it. They need US to go along with it, or it means nothing.

      • Robert Smith

        Vigilant asks: “deny choice to those who opt to not be covered by universal health care?”

        You can always buy your own.

        Ohhhhhh, I get it! You want to opt out of ALL health care until you need it when you get older or have an accident.

        I’d like to see an option where you can carry a card, like an organ donor card, that declares that you have opted out of the Universal Health Care, and you will not be treated in any way for anything.

        How’s that?

        I’ll bet you don’t like motorcycle helmets either. Yet when one goes down on a bike the rest of us have to pay the bill. Just sign a card that if you scrape your brain out on the road we can immediately use you as an organ donor. No life support, no nothing, just the opportunity to help others.

        Rob

      • Kate8

        I think it’s obvious that eddie is another professional troll. And by his own admission he signs several hundred petitions every day (???!!!) I suspect he belongs to something like SEIU or ACORN, so it seems likely that, if he belongs or belonged to a union it was a government workers union.

        eddie and the rest of the trolls make a career out of defending the indefensible.

      • eddie47d

        There Dave H goes again lying about me lying. I never said a thing to you Dave so why the false and petty accusations. A little hot under the collar and can’t handle the heat or what? Funny thing is that you answered me earlier but I didn’t respond back that makes you the paranoid one!

      • Vigilant

        Deer says, “But I have a choice,~ in some cases I choose to ignore, some I comply and some, I call their bluff. So the notion of “no choice” is just not so, ~ you just don’t approve of your choices.

        “So? I ask, What is new?”

        What’s new is that one more choice regarding your personal freedom has been taken away from you. If that choice to opt out without penalty were not brand new, we wouldn’t even be talking about it, would we?

        It’s called Obamacare, and it forces one to buy a commercial product or pay the piper. Prior to Obamacare, that coercive factor was not in the equation. That, sir, is “what is new.”

      • Mike in MI

        DaveH –
        In all likelihood it is true that eddie47d is actually a card carrying moslem. They can say anything they want to you or me or any un-moslem “monkey or pig”. Then in the nest second they can deny it, say it never happened, say it wasn’t what they meant or slander you with misrepresenting what they said.
        Like Obama, that’s probably the most likely reason eddie is like that. It’s just their way. One day they’ll be wiped off the face – - – .

      • deerinwater

        Viligant says; “It’s called Obamacare, and it forces one to buy a commercial product or pay the piper. Prior to Obamacare, that coercive factor was not in the equation. That, sir, is “what is new.”

        I say; You are correct Sir. People was not being coerced to be responsible for the expense of health care. That this was breaking the health care system in place required address. ~ people refusing to do the right thing have been forced too.

        You are just in your anger while you direct your anger at the wrong party. You need to be angry at a failed system that address only the needs of a special few at the expense of all tax payer as they lined their pockets and denied claims.

  • http://TheMiracleofSelfPower Iris D. Lynch

    Your last paragraph says it all..free will and the consequences of it are ours as individuals. But these mass murderers were innocent babes at one time. We assume that their little brains had cross wiring and that is how they became monsters. I do not necessarily agree, altho’ it is a possibility in rare cases. Instead, I believe that many an innocent child was used and abused and the greater the intelligence of that child, the greater his understanding of the terror imposed upon him by someone who should have loved and protected him. Eventually a few ‘get even’. It IS unjustified, but look how often they go back to their first understanding of their neediness…school. This is where the terrible training shows up. For a complete understanding of self power, read The Miracle of Self Power.

    • Mike in MI

      Iris D. -
      Maybe,they were innocent, doesn’t mean they were “normal”. Who knows what some doctor advised the baby’s mom to put in her blood that affected the baby, screwed its development and gave us what it had to give.
      Believe it or not, I don’t care, but there is a high likelihood that the reason we have so many homos lesbs and transers is due to —cillin drugs given to pregnant moms at a critical point in nervous system development.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

    There is currently at work in our nation a most dangerous killer. It consistently takes more lives than any disease, famine, or war we have ever faced.

    Every month this killer takes more American lives than were lost in the entire Vietnam War. Every six months more die from its relentless onslaught than in all our previous wars combined or in all the fatal automobile accidents of the past twenty years. Every 2 to 3 years it claims more victims than the Nazi Holocaust.

    Incredibly, this monumental devastation is carried out by medical professionals and is completely preventable. The name of this vicious serial killer is ABORTION.

    Abortion advocates ignore these innocent victims of abortion. Testimony given at U.S. government sponsored public hearings indicated that in the so-called family planning clinics: “The baby is dehumanized as much as possible by being termed a ‘blob,’ ‘products of conception’ or ‘uterine contents.’ Not even the term fetus is used by counselors.”

    1,500,000 to 2,000,000 babies are aborted/slaughtered annually. Yet, no outcry, nor a whisper from the brain-dead society at the daily massacre of innocent life! 26 lives are brutally gun-down and the knee-jerk reaction from the populace is horror and outrage. What hypocrites!!!

    • Robert Smith

      Let’s buy a clue for WTS: Not everyone believes as you do.

      For some it ain’t a “baby” but a work in progress. Nobody considers a sheet of steel to be a car. Why do you consider a few cells to be a “baby” before the end of the process?

      Rob

      • Nobody’s Fool

        Robert Smith, only an idiot communist like yourself would compare a beating heart to a piece of inanimate steel. Tell me, please, when does that “glob of cells” become an actual human?? (Of course in your case it never happened, but perhaps you can answer the question.) Rob, your ignorance continues to astound me.

      • Ron The Marine

        robert smith, you stupid, mindless cool-aid drinking SOB ! WTS hit this one on the head ! As I have said many times, do you ever wonder why your backsides are sore? Just may be from all the smoke liberals and BO has blown up your tail pipe during your miserable liberal life and during the 2008 and 2012 election snow jobs! All you need to look at is BO’s and liberals stance on abortion. It does not matter how you frame abortion, In GOD’s WORD, The HOLY BIBLE, it is still murder of one the most precious gifts HE has ever given us! May GOD have mercy on BO and all other liberal abortion believers’ miserable souls (and the United States of America for ever letting this abomination see the light of day)!!! And please give me a break! Do not put Christian in the same sentence as demonic-crat with their (Liberal Mob Democrats) belief that a woman has a right to murder her unborn child (for she will not hear GOD say ” Well done good and faithful servant” unless she repents for her sins against GOD and mankind and accepts JESUS CHRIST as her LORD and SAVIOR)! SO UNTIL YOU WANT TO DISCUSS BRINGING “ALL” MURDERS TO JUSTICE – KEEP YOUR STUPID MOUTH SHUT- ONLY THE FOOL SAYS THERE IS NO GOD!!!

        Semper Fi, FOOL!

      • Vigilant

        RS says, “For some it ain’t a “baby” but a work in progress.”

        He and others of his death cult will forever seek to euphemize the business of murder with terms and catch phrases that have no real meaning. Pro-choice means pro-death, and to dehumanize a living being in the womb with the term “work in progress” is to make life itself a sterile and clinical statistic.

        Life itself, in all forms, is a “work in progress.” You and I are a work in progress. Human potential is not reached upon birth, and most persons never reach their potential.

        Human life does not begin in the womb. It began a long time ago, and each conception is not a reinvention of the wheel, it’s a CONTINUATION of a process that had its genesis eons before your birth.

        If you artificially arrest that process, whether through abortion, euthanasia or any other willful form of taking a life, it is homicide.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Ah yes, the brain-dead argument “the fetus is not a PERSON” from those who revel in “child-sacrifice”! Strange, isn’t it, Robert, how the majority of “fetuses”, if left unmolested, always seem to evolve into “PERSONS”?

      • Jana

        Bens comment:”A friend of mine, an unrepentant atheist, took to expressing his rage at Friday’s horror by citing it as proof that God doesn’t — couldn’t — exist.

        God doesn’t cause these things to happen. When man shuns God, God has to back off.
        Some people want to bad mouth God and then blame Him for the bad things that happen in this world. They want to “blame God” for this and every bad event, yet they have not only shunned God from their lives, but they want to control everyone else and try and make them leave God out of their lives, their schools, their government, and even their speech.

        The Bible gives us a set of rules to go by, but they are NOT adhered to. Premeditated murder is to be a death sentence according to God’s Mighty Word, but man says no we will give him a few years in prison and then let him out. So he gets out and kills again.

        The Bible says to put a rapist to death, in other words send him to the Father in Heaven, so he won’t be able to rape again. Yet we see over and over rapists and murderers of children are sent to prison for a short while and released again to commit these same crimes over and over.

        We have free will. God did not make us robots so we have to just worship or honor Him. He gave us free choice. When we choose not to have God in our lives or in our society evil is given a free hand. When man shuns God, God has to back off.

        We are becoming a Socialist Nation, and Socialism pushes God out.

        .

      • Robert Smith

        Question asked: “Tell me, please, when does that “glob of cells” become an actual human??”

        In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

        After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

        IOW, when the first breath is taken.

        Or, whenever before that the woman carrying it decides it to be so.

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        Jana says: “Premeditated murder is to be a death sentence according to God’s Mighty Word, but man says no we will give him a few years in prison and then let him out. So he gets out and kills again.”

        Apparently, according to your god, abortion is NOT murder.

        Check this out: “In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense.”

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Robert: Question asked: “Tell me, please, when does that “glob of cells” become an actual human??”

        Since you obviously have no clue, as per your admission, i suggest you abstain from the debate concerning when “life begins”. As for your use of scripture, if you truly knew what Scriptures say concerning life, you would know; “For the life of the flesh is in the blood…l”(Lev17:11) the baby’s blood is directly oxygenated via the placenta, the “fetus”, therefore, must be considered “a life” at conception, since technically it is kept alive through the “oxygenated-blood”, and that, from its very beginning!

        As to your Genesis reference, you are referring to pre-procreation. The pro-creative system had not yet been established, naturally then, it required God’s direct involvement in establishing it!!!

      • Jana

        Robert Smith,
        I don’t know what version of a Bible you were reading. Mine doesn’t say that. Mine says:
        Ex 21:22

        22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

        Ex 21:23

        23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
        KJV

        Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

      • Kate8

        Like I’ve pointed out before, if there is a bright side to abortion, it is that the vast majority of these poor children are of liberal mothers, and would grow up to be more Robert Smiths.

        Think how much saner the world would be had Robert’s mother availed herself of this option. We’d all be spared this aggravation.

      • Mike in MI

        OK, let’s face it about Robert Smith, folks.
        Lately there has been talk about Adam Lanza being a victim of Apsberger’s Syndrome. These folks don’t relate to humans in normal ways. They can’t feel empathy. They don’t have normal drive systems. They may be geniuses but are incapable of channeling it or focusing their genius to benefit for themselves or others. They have to take lots of medications. Their speech is disjointed and often incoherent.
        Their lack of empath makes it nearly impossible forthem to relate anthing much about others.
        Like Robert Smith.

        • Deerinwater

          “Lately there has been talk about Adam Lanza being a victim of Apsberger’s Syndrome. These folks don’t relate to humans in normal ways. They can’t feel empathy”

          Well hmm? ~ and that is suppose to explain Adam Lanza taking his own life as well?

          I have these callous thoughts of not wanting to care why his elevator did not go to the top. Adam Lanza should have been donated to medicinal research for study instead of being raised in so dysfunctional family setting like a loyal pooch.

          The Lanza family setting is open to review by the burden of the crime against society as far as I’m concern. ~ Clearly, something was out of hand and not being addressed.

      • Mike in MI

        Jana -
        There’s something here I’ve never been able to get anybody to give me ANY answer to.
        It is this: The perpetrator of this trouble is treated as though a civil infraction has been perpetrated or property damage has occurred.
        If the baby dies why is he not tried and judged for either manslaughter or murder? If the fetus were considered fully human it would be seen as a full fledged citizen of Israel, subject to all the penalties and remedies, wouldn’t it?
        Therefore the perpetrator would have to be tried accordingly, right? Wrong? What?

      • Kate8

        Jana, Mike in MI – Did you see this?

        http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-sheds-fake-tears-for-sandy-hook-victims/?utm_source=Western+Journalism&utm_campaign=8054bde870-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email

        He is for allowing full-term babies to be left to die, but he weeps for the Sandy Hook children?

        Really.

      • Jana

        Mike in MI,

        Yes, I can explain it.

        Ex 21:22

        22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

        Explanation: if two men are fighting and a woman who is pregnant gets hurt and loses her baby because of one of these mens’ actions even though it was an accidentnt, he still has to go before their court and the judges. The husband will be allowed to set the sentence.
        If it follows, or is found out that he did this intentionally to cause her to lose her baby,( we now call this malice aforethought), then verse 23 comes into play and he will pay with his life.
        Ex 21:23

        23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
        ________________
        The Bible says Thou shalt not kill, but if you look up the word kill you will find it means murder or pre meditated murder.
        A soldier may have to kill in war, or someone causes an auto accident, these are not premeditated murder.

        Just like in Deut. 19:5 if a man goes into the woods with his neighbor to cut down some trees, and his axe head flies off and he kills his neighbor, he can run to a village that has been designated a safe city, and live there, so his friends family will not be able to seek revenge. it was an accident.

        I hope this all makes sense as I am not usually up at this time of night. Everyone is asleep but me, moan.
        I am now going back to bed.

        Have a nice day.

      • deerinwater

        Kate8 says:

        “Like I’ve pointed out before, if there is a bright side to abortion, it is that the vast majority of these poor children are of liberal mothers, and would grow up to be more Robert Smiths.”

        I’d like to point out how Kate seems to know things that are unknowable and make sweeping general statement as she dispense her judgement on her fellow brother and sisters from the womb to the tome with such pious indignation.

      • Kate8

        deer – Hey. It’s YOU people who champion abortion, not me.

        If it is no big deal, why are you making a fuss?

        Conservatives generally don’t accept abortion, so the logical conclusion is that most who get them are liberals. I’d say it’s win/win. You get to terminate your unborn (which you say is your right), and we are spared another deranged liberal pain in the b*tt.

        So what’s your problem?

        • Deerinwater

          I’ve find over the years. noise “self proclaimed” Conservative such as yourself, are not as they appear but the mere epidemie of hypocritical thinking manifested in human form Katie, ~ and just about every one of your posting over the last three years have validated it.

          Your are to be pitted and tolerated, for you know not what you do.

          Bless you ~~ no doubt ~ the world has been most unkind to you as you stand before us today.

      • Jana

        Kate8,
        That is actually a great way to look at it. After all, we might as well. The Socialist liberals are the ones murdering their own unborn. they will have to answer for it, not us.
        By the way you asked the liberal deer what his problem is? He is a kid. He acts like a kid and he talks like a kid who maybe a little narssistic.

    • eddie47d

      That is why the gun issue will never be solved because WTS goes off into an abortion tangent. Defuse the topic with smoke and mirrors and once again these school shooting will continue. We don’t need any of your “knee jerk” reactions either WTS! These are two separate issues but nice try!

      • Robert Smith

        Hi Eddie,

        They are related in that BOTH sides are trying to take rights and freedoms from the other.

        The rights of ALL Americans must be respected by both sides.

        I think it’s possible to respect women enough to allow them to decide abortion and all law abiding and stable adults can decide for themselves about firearms.

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        eddie: These are two separate issues but nice try!

        I beg to differ, eddie. The two issues are one and the same in that; if the life in the womb is regarded to be of no value, why should the life outside the womb merit the opposite in evaluation? To preach that only life outside the womb should be regarded as sacred, but not the life inside the womb, is to openly admit you suffer from schizophrenia, or worse, that you suffer from a serious disconnect from reality, and quite possibly on the same level as Mr. Lanza! I’m quite certain that Mr.Lanza had no issues in regarding both, life inside and outside the womb to be of “No-Value”!!! Do you agree with him?

      • eddie47d

        That would be like saying train wrecks and plane crashes are the same because people die. They are totally different in how they happened but once again nice try! I doubt if you take care of all the abandoned children in the world or even in the USA so don’t try and make me responsible for any abortion that happens.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        eddie: That would be like saying train wrecks and plane crashes are the same because people die. They are totally different in how they happened but once again nice try!

        What? They are the same, precisely because people die! Thanks for the confirmation.

      • eddie47d

        WTS? LOL!!

      • Mike in MI

        Oh, I do disagree, eddie. Obama and his minions will keep stirring the anti-gun furor until everybody is sick to death of hearing it and at wit’s end. Then he’ll round up and destroy the guns of all but his friends and acomplisses.
        Then, they will set up appointments for us to explain the Affordable Health Care Act. Then in order to go home we’ll be required to agree to RFID chip insertion (part of the AHCA Health Prevention provisions) or overnight stay in a nearby resort operated by DHSA until our security checks are finished.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        eddie:That would be like saying train wrecks and plane crashes are the same as (abortions and massacres) because people die.

        Train wrecks and plane-crashes are “Accidental”, eddie. Whereas, abortions and massacres are pre-meditaded, homicidal-acts!!! Bid difference, wouldn’t you say?

  • Bilbo

    Wow. Easily the best commentary on this Tragedy till now. Thank you, Ben, for turning my thoughts from darkness to light.

    • Robert Smith

      The key is respecting the rights of ALL Americans.

      Sadly Ben isn’t ready to discuss that, yet.

      Rob

  • http://www.cindynel.co.za peter

    After the dreadful tragedy there must of course be discussed the reasons for the incident and why it happened and where we all were found wanting in order to prevent it happening. Blame is the best we can come up with, as usual. Why is it that we cannot understand that as long as mankind inhabits this planet, all the senseless wars and killings will continue, since in our entire history we have never learnt to quell our thirst for money, power and adoration, so why would we now change. We will remain what we are until we totally outsmart ourselves and are no longer able to blame anyone except ourselves for our demise since we are simply humans and that is how we always behaved and always will behave. We are neither able to, nor interested in saving the sick, since we are too busy indulging in our own immediate desires and our selfishness, so that greed will exact it’s toll, of that we can be absolutely sure. We make our own chains and innocent folks have to suffer because of our misguided actions. May their souls rest in peace and the hurt of those left behind be qwelled. We should all live in shame for the lunacy of mankind.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

    Should teachers be armed?

    Some are demanding tighter gun control, others say the answer is improving mental health care for people who have complex psychiatric and emotional issues. Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) has another prescription. Gohmert says we should make sure at least some administrators or teachers at every school are armed. “I wish to God [Sandy Hook Principal Dawn Hochsprung] had an M-4 in her office so when she heard gunfire she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands,” Gohmert told Fox News, “but she takes him out, takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids.” Is arming educators really the answer?

    Actually, YES: The “most practical” way to deter school shootings, says John Hinderaker at Power Line, is to require that a few “teachers or administrators in each school be trained in the use of firearms and armed at all times.” Killers who want to go out in a “blaze of notoriety” pick schools because they’re full of helpless victims. Give teachers the means to stop them and the murderers will stay away — “no one tries to shoot up a biker bar.”

    • Larry K.

      go to yahoo type in front sight and type in free teachers weapons training and hit search.
      they will teach three people from each school. every school should check this out.

      • ranger09

        larry, Fully agree teachers should have the means to protect our children and their own lives, When we send our children to schools The teachers take the Parents place for protecting our children.
        BRAD, The Deputy in San Antonio Now thats a Person that did the job properly, Only Problem she did not kill him. Just a note for thought, has anyone ever heard about a COP bar being Robbed.

  • Giovanni

    If there were no demons,angels still would existe and the time will come when that will be,as far as these “heroes or angels” as they are ridiculouly being called….why in a blue hell are they so inept in mounting a plan of defense?!?!?… …I refuse and will refuse to call them heroes or ridiculisly “angels” they were hapless victims,plain and simple,a hero would have stopped the evil one,a hero would have fought….and who is to say God still cares about what happens to our nation? He is not protecting it,nor is He punishing it,we are reaping what we ve sown…there is nothing divine here,no angels no heroes,evil and victims that s all.

  • Lingoliad

    With Lanzas intelligence, if he did not get a gun, a couple pipe bombs would have served his purpose. How many babies did Timothy McVay kill without a gun? Spoons do not make people fat. This was not spur of the moment, it was planned. We need to give parents the authority to institutionalize up to the age of 26. If they can be on your insurance til 26, why can’t parents have that option.

    • Karolyn

      I saw a piece this morning about parents whose daughter was totally out of control. They finally found a hospital that had a bed for her. She was only there for a month because insurance wouldn’t pay anymore. The hospital did not want to release her but had no choice. A kid like that, not getting enough help, will lead a crazy, often criminal life.

      • ranger09

        Kay, Ive spent a lot of time in large Cities, And the Homeless and the mentally sick People that roam the streets and alleys hang out in the alleys and doorways at night, They are abused by locals and the Police. And people do not care, I have seen the Police just walk by driveby and pay no notice to them laying on the streets beaten up,drunk, raped etc. And no one cares, WHY because they have NO MONEY.Medical response will not even care or transport them, Because they have no value, and most of all NO MONEY. I once observed a Mentally sick person breaking up private property, A motor Officer i flagged down and showed him this Person, He said its ok Insurance will take care of it and drove right by this Person and did Nothing.
        What this means is we the People no longer take care of our sick ,mental disturbed. etc. But when things go wrong we are the first ones to place blame.

      • Robert Smith

        It was Reagan who first in California and then in America emptied and shut down many many mental treatment centers. They wound up on the streets.

        Rob

      • Kate8

        Robert – These “treatment centers” were nothing more than holding tanks which kept the inmates drugged up on things like Haldol.

        Is that better than being in the streets? I suppose that is a matter of who you ask. But what we have are many people who’ve been damaged irreparably by horrific drugs.

        Since it became illegal to help people by encouraging spiritual insight, I suppose there’s not much left. I know about poor souls who’ve come through today’s “treatment” for mental illness, and they are little more than empty shells of their former selves. It’s heartbreaking.

        Too bad there are so many brainwashed people like you who have no interest in looking at actual facts. You, like eddie, promote the government agenda without question. And it’s painfully obvious that you are tragically ill informed about most everything.

  • bernard newcomer

    How come we are o,k. when a baby survives an aboration is left to die? Fully formed and if cared for would live( not just cells). We are overwhelmed with the lose of 27 people killed-our need to protect the young is strong. Yet not a care fot the baby who began life surviving an aboration-how sad.

    • deerinwater

      Stay on topic.

      • Jana

        deerinwater,
        Who made you the topic police?

        • Deerinwater

          I did! Somebody needs to be the grownup in the room.

          I’m encouraging you to follow the thread and not inflame the serious topic before us today with spam in a comparative /contrast debate related only by death of the innocent with some feeble attempt to display some self righteous moral high ground with indignation for worthy political opposition.

          The topic is Gun violence and gun control.

          Ben Crystal opening paragraph was a prelude and failed to offer us a thesis statement which was well done while most unusual. The sheer gravity of the topic made this possible for him to do as he set the tenor for us to absorb what would be forthcoming.

          The thesis statement was in the middle of the second paragraph, again unusual but consist with both Ben Crystal and my own style of writing.

          “Yet words dominate the discourse in the wake of the tragedy. Of course, the nature of this unimaginable horror engenders the usual debates about gun control.”

          Followed by, “And the usual suspects tread far beyond the borders of dignity in trying to exploit the misery for ideological purposes. I even found myself participating in a fairly civilized discussion featuring a wide variety of viewpoints.
          But my heart just wasn’t in it.”

          and ended with , “The Almighty allows us the gift of free will. Some squander it, even desecrate it. Others rise to new heights of greatness. I choose to gaze just a while longer at the latter, if only to remind myself that they are — and that they carry me — closer to Him.
          –Ben Crystal”

          Without a doubt, this is one of Ben Crystal best pieces of work ~ Sir/ Madam

          You hear anything about Pro Life or Freedom of Choice in Ben Crystal work ~ other then the mention of “the gift of Free Will”?

      • eddie47d

        So Jana does that mean when Chip is talking about oil in Canada we can bring up mountain climbing or the Typhoon in the Philippines?

      • Jana

        deerinwater,
        hahahaha your puffed up post says it all.

      • Robert Smith

        Deer… reminds us: ““The Almighty allows us the gift of free will. Some squander it, even desecrate it. Others rise to new heights of greatness. I choose to gaze just a while longer at the latter, if only to remind myself that they are — and that they carry me — closer to Him.
        –Ben Crystal”

        Unless the woman is pregnant. Then she can’t decide.

        Unless the woman wants birth control similar to any other prescription, and she can’t decide.

        Except when one wants a recreational drug, then they can’t decide.

        Except when one wants to decide for themselves, about their own death, then they can’t decide.

        Except for those who want to choose someone of the same sex to marry, then they can’t decide.

        Who are those who put themselves above their own god in the treatment of their fellow human beings.

        Kinda makes a joke out of “free will.”

        Rob

      • deerinwater

        Confusing you for a mature person is remote Jana, While the rest of us do have tolerance with children, even sassy mouth children. If you don’t like being referred to as a insolent child , you have only to quit thinking and speaking like one.

      • Jana

        What’s the matter Deerinwater? Can’t handle the truth?

        • Deerinwater

          Focus your attention to the thread Jana

      • eddie47d

        Jana is getting good at talking in circles. Ahh! The freedom of the women’s Lib movement but she’ll never admit that either.

      • Kate8

        Robert – We’ve had this debate with you ad nauseum, and you haven’t heard a single word anyone has said. This is because you are here to repeat the same mantra over and over.

        You have never addressed a single argument. You just come back with the same talking points.

        Hasn’t anyone else figured this out yet? I mean, why keep beating a dead idiot. He can’t hear you.

      • Mike in MI

        K88 -
        Well, what do you expect. Liberalism is a mental disease, is it not?
        In his case it was terminal. So confused even his own brain couldn’t find its way out.

      • Jana

        deerinw,
        You stated:’I’m encouraging you to follow the thread and not inflame the serious topic before us today with spam in a comparative /contrast debate related only by death of the innocent with some feeble attempt to display some self righteous moral high ground with indignation for worthy political opposition.”_____________

        The death of innocent? What is more innocent than an unborn baby? We have COLD BLOODED MURDER every day sanctioned by people like you who would kill an unborn child, or even a child that survived abortion, and let it die. What is more innocent than a baby that is totally dependent on its mother?
        You have some nerve trying to tell other people what they can or cannot talk about.
        If you can’t handle a decent conversation without going ballistic, then get off this thread.
        You do think you are smarter than everyone else, but your posts prove you are not.

        • Deerinwater

          Are you really so thick headed that you fail to see an attempt to hyjack the thread Jana? Ben Crystal thread is not about the killing of innocence. Enough from you already, focus you attention to the thread Space Cadet.

          I’ll give you all the attention that you want Jana, just stay on the thread.

      • Jana

        Poor Baby deer,
        Spoiled bossy little boy can’t get his way. Are you wearing your little pink shirt today like the rest of the effeminates out there?
        You are too full of yourself but, your mommy and daddy let you get away with being so bossy and not even knowing what you are talking about because they are liberals who never really knew the truth themselves.
        Ben Crystal doesn’t need any help from you little boy, he is a grown up.
        You can go back to kindergarten now and pay attention! Be sure and pick up all your toys before you go to bed!

  • Deerinwater

    Hmm? ~ What are the issue here?

    Needless killing?

    Guns?

    People?

    Behavior?

    I see three overriding issue.

    A history of feeding fear – ( The family was consuming pending doom and social melt-down and had prepared for it)

    A history of using gun killing as entertainment -(Video games, etc)

    Access to weapon – ( These weapons were not secured properly) I want to see a security system that has been breached. )

    The owners of firearms need to accept the responsibility of securing them and found neglectful, should stand accountable.

    I’m so hurt over this incident, I’m not prepared to today to make judgement’s I must live with and deffer to a later day.

    • DaveH

      The good people need to stand up and hold the Real Perps accountable — those people who act as accessories to murder by preventing victims from being able to fight back with their gun-control laws.

      • Robert Smith

        Hey DaveH: “those people who act as accessories to murder by preventing victims from being able to fight back with their gun-control laws.”

        Yup, your answer is to give a 6-year-old a gun.

        Sheesh.

        Rob

      • http://www.sweetsalesgirl.com/Kuurus/ Charles Johnson

        Nope the six! adults.

      • eddie47d

        Last year one of the righties did say elementary children should be allowed to carry weapons into schools. Some of these righties have big egos full of doo doo but little room left for their smarts.

      • Jana

        Proof eddie proof. Another one of your lies?

      • DaveH

        Sheesh? Flashman?
        Robert says — “Yup, your answer is to give a 6-year-old a gun”.
        What else would I expect from a hyperbolic ignorant Liberal Progressive than a non sequitur?

      • DaveH

        Jana says — “Proof eddie proof. Another one of your lies?”.
        What else? We all know Eddie is famous for putting words in other peoples’ mouths.
        It’s getting late, Eddie. Time to get back under your bridge.

      • eddie47d

        There are literally thousands of comments on this site I remember what people say but not who always said them. I doubt if it would be any different for anyone else unless they copied and paste a comments years ago. We know Dave wouldn’t live under a bridge because he can’t stand people who lives beneath him.

    • Deerinwater

      Well arming children is out of the question David,

      And I fail to see a lacking in access to weapons as the problem you describe, while indeed this could happen IF weapon owners fail to take the proper steps to secure their weapons.

      Surely you can bring forward better opposition to my appeal for more personal responsibly on the part of gun ownership without suggesting denied access is a problem.

      • http://www.sweetsalesgirl.com/Kuurus/ Charles Johnson

        Six! Adults died also just one of them could have ended it. Or an armed guard.

    • eddie47d

      Then the NRA and GOA should be charged with accessory to murder because they have loosened up all the laws in every state which makes it easier to obtain those weapons. They also glorify assault weapons as a needed tool of self defense. One of the biggest lies told in our nations history. Pure BS from these gun groups! Far more lives are lost with Semi-Automatic weapons than are ever saved.

      • Karolyn

        Did you see the people picketing the NRA, which never even sent condolences to victims’ families or acknowledged the incident. Seems they are hiding out. I have heard that many gun owners are talking cooperation. Even they don’t believe automatic weapons with large magazines should be readily available. There is absolutely no use for them other then men who like guns getting a kick out of shooting them.

      • Robert Smith

        Karolyn says: “Even they don’t believe automatic weapons with large magazines should be readily available.”

        There were no automatic weapons involved in ANY of the mass shootings.

        They were semi-auto.

        Mistakes such as this one could be avoided with age appropriate firearms instruction in schools.

        When I was in high school in the late ’60s I was able to pick up a Mauser .22 and a box of ammo. to go to the range during lunch. I’d munch my sandwich and drink a coke while I ran 50 rounds down the range, pick up my brass, and return it to the office. No problems and I wasn’t the only one.

        We need more firearms education just like we need more sex education. All age appropriate of course.

        Rob

      • eddie47d

        Karolyn: Always use the term semi-automatic even though there isn’t much difference in the killing capacity. I’m against both types but some get a little touchy when you confuse one over the other.

      • ranger09

        EDDIE, Join the real world. If our Justice system worked to protect the People instead of the Criminal then we could MAYBE put our Guns away. A man Murders 9 people found Guilty spends 27 years in protective custody, Costs the taxpayers near a million dollars, Now we decide to put him to Death. And we call this Justice. One of the lest crime Countries in the world was Afganistan before we invaded, NOW their crime rate is ON the rise and all because of us and our standards. If you had ever had to deal with Criminals as we have today YOU yourself would carry a firearm.

      • eddie47d

        Not buying it ranger! No one needs a semi-automatic you just think you do out of fear. I’ll stand by what I said.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Mistakes such as this one could be avoided with age appropriate firearms instruction in schools”.
        Finally something intelligent comes out of Robert’s mouth.
        I suggested such a thing to the NRA in California 2 decades ago and they said they’d already tried that, but only 2 Legislators would even look at their suggestion. Because the truth is they could care less about gun safety. They just want to make it harder to buy guns so as to make it easier to gradually ban them, because an unarmed citizenry is a safer citizenry to subjugate.

    • DaveH

      Deer says — “Well arming children is out of the question David”.
      Where did I say anything about arming children, Deer?
      What is with you Liberal Progressives? I think I could get more intelligent responses from those children.

      • Robert Smith

        Hey DaveH here is your statement that you had no qualifiers in: “those people who act as accessories to murder by preventing victims from being able to fight back with their gun-control laws.”

        Based upon what you said I responded: “Yup, your answer is to give a 6-year-old a gun.”

        May I suggest you be more clear in your posting?

        Rob

      • Jana

        Uh oh DaveH,
        Robert is up from his nap.

      • DaveH

        Robert, you’re equivocating and you know it.

  • Dan

    Thank you Ben…

    • deerinwater

      Yes, thank you Ben.

  • Tom Cook

    Ben, being an inveterate atheist, I can understand your friend’s assertion that Newton proves that god does not exist–no god–no supernatural, mystical, idiot in the sky that will give us jelly beans and cure our cancer. George Carlin has already said it best. The simple truth is that all of those simple-minded nice folk who helplessly, unarmed charged the freak who murdered little children just wasted their time, and I have little sympathy for them. They were just fools. Cannon fodder. One of them armed, trained, and with just a tiny bit of backbone could have ended the carnage. Not one of them could think outside the box enough to understand that the only thing that will defeat a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun. You of all people are smart enough to realize this. The liberals are not smart enough to wipe their own asses without soiling their fingers so the pathetic harridan Feinstein just yells for “gun control” like tiny little Bloomberg. They just mean they are well-pleased with the slaughter of the young so they can push their agenda.

    • eddie47d

      Gun enthusiasts have their agenda also and their free for all of loose laws have only exacerbated these massacres. You know to make the killing quicker and easier. The Aurora shooter obtained his weapons and ammo legally and fairly quickly so he could do his dirty business. The same with the Newtown shooting where Adam’s gun enthusiast mother had several legal guns in her home and not locked up. Nothing like making it easier for the criminals. Thank you weak minded “Conservatives” and your glory for guns initiated another massacre.

      • Robert Smith

        Hi eddie,

        I’ve been doing a little research. It is beginning to look like both his father and mother worked in the financial world, perhaps even in the top 2%. Obviously they both appeared to be financially secure.

        Could the “morality” of those rich folks have had an impact on the shooter?

        Are the 2% beginning to fear those who they are trying to control?

        Wow! That should be a bunch of fodder for ‘em.

        Rob ;-)

      • eddie47d

        LOL!

  • TML

    “Against unstoppable evil (not to mention the basic instinct to preserve one’s own life), they charged an armed assailant; they threw themselves into a hail of bullets; they placed themselves directly between certain death and young life.
    … also produced six angels named Victoria Soto, Dawn Hochsprung, Anne Marie Murphy, Lauren Rousseau, Rachel D’Avino and Mary Sherlach

    Glad to hear you name them… I can’t stand when, in the wake of tragedies like this, the killer’s name and stupid face is all you ever hear and see plastered on the news. They are normally treated as celebrities, which could even be one of the factors in a person doing something like this. The acts of valor that surely took place are greater than the acts of that cowardly nobody and should be hailed for their bravery. If there is anything to say about guns here, then it is only a sad regret that one of those 6 were not armed.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

      TML: I can’t stand it when, in the wake of tragedies like this, the killer’s name and stupid face is all you ever hear and see plastered on the news. They are normally treated as celebrities, which could even be one of the factors in a person doing something like this.

      You touched upon something, TML, that is often ignored. The love-affair the media and hollywood has with serial-killers. I thought you might find an excerpt from “Natural Born Celebrities -Serial Killers in American Culture” of some benefit.

      http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/738671.html

      • Karolyn

        I get what you’re saying, Jay. However, I think it is human nature to want to know “Why?” “What kind of person could do this?” Much can be learned from studying these killers.

      • Kate8

        Let’s not forget the main reason for this, which is to implant the desired story firmly in the minds of the masses. Plastering the face of the “killer”, whether true or not, gives everyone a face to blame, someone on which to focus, taking attention away from the facts (which they do not want us to know).

      • DaveH

        What I’d like to know, Karolyn, is what kind of people would want to restrain the victims and make them helpless while the shooters do their dirty work?
        You tell us all the time about how positive you are, Karolyn. But what kind of “positive” people aid and abet cold-blooded killers by making their victims helpless?

      • Karolyn

        Dave – I have said over and over again that I have nothing against people having guns, but I would not have one.

    • eddie47d

      Its been said that America love guns and violence and there was a guy at work who said he would never go to a movie unless it contained lots of sex and violence. Hollywood only give America what it wants and it sure does sell. Jesse James and Al Capone were “heros” and for the most part before Hollywood was big. Guns just happen to make the violence happen at a quicker pace.

    • Robert Smith

      “the killer’s name and stupid face is all you ever hear and see plastered on the news. ”

      Anderson Cooper made it a point to avoid the perp’s name and face.

      His thought is that it will discourage others because they won’t get the recognition they crave.

      So, CNN does something right.

      What did Fox do?

      Rob

  • Doctor Mom

    No one seems to be commenting on the connection between Aurora and Sandy Hook. Both fathers of the possible perpetrators were scheduled to witness in the Libor scandal.
    False flag??? This could be far more evil than what is being discussed.

    • DaveH

      Crazy? Well how crazy was the killing of 2400 military personnel at Pearl Harbor so that FDR could get us involved in WWII? Psychopathic Leaders are capable of anything.
      Especially watch the second video:
      http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread908679/pg1

      • DaveH
        • Deerinwater

          We’ve walked down this path before David. ~ While I’m not buying it parcel and sum, I would not second guess who knew what and when they knew it, for much was afoot by 1939.

          The English were taking a pounding as merchant ships of many Nations fell prey to wolf packs in International waters and Land Grabs affected Sovereign Nations world wide.

          Hitler had to be stopped and if it called for a hit in the head for the American people to wake up and comes to the party by such means, we are undeserving to be a great nation that we claim to be.

          WWII was our last “Just War” and every dollar spend and every drop of blood spilled by every man that fought and died in that war did not die in vain and all the rest of us today owe them a debt of extreme gratitude.

          Supreme Allied Command did not wish to destroy all of Europe in the process of defeating Germany which made it a door to door fight all the way from Normandy to Berlin from the west -and the Russian front from the east.

          Never in modern history was a war more JUST.

          This book you subscribe to, is a disservice to us all.

      • Karolyn

        Reminds me of the controversy over Beatles music being satanic when played backwards. You can get any meaning you want out of anything. Take the Bible, for instance and all the differing interpretations.

      • Karolyn

        There is also a Sandy Hook in NJ and probably other states too.

      • DaveH

        You have no idea what you’re talking about, Deer. You could learn though. But I can’t see that. For some reason Liberal Progressives are afraid to learn anything.
        For those who want to break the mold of ignorance that the Propagandists have cast you in:
        http://library.mises.org/books/John%20V%20Denson/A%20Century%20of%20War%20Lincoln,%20Wilson%20and%20Roosevelt.pdf

        • Deerinwater

          David , there are thousands of books and 10 thousands articles about this time period in History, ~ and you point me to only one? ~ You have offer this before and I have investigated it. ~ and as you sit there a telling me that I don’t know what I am talking about while I have openly agreed that, ~ who knew what and when might be suspect and up to interpretation but even so does not change the fact that this was a war that had to be fought. ~ Places you far on the outside of rational thinking and not I, ~ David.

          If you insist to subscribe to this diabolical conspiracy, fine ! but I don’t . ~ Pearl Harbor was caught with their pants down on early Sunday morning after a long Saturday in paradise. Military installations are not permitted such luxury. If a wake up call is necessary for professional soldiers that the world must rely on ~ so be it. If they can not defend themselves without a “little birdy giving out early warning ” how the hell are they to defend anyone else?

          http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Names_of_ships_that_survived_pearl_harbour

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “Pearl Harbor was caught with their pants down on early Sunday morning after a long Saturday in paradise”.
        Sure Deer. Whatever you wish to believe. But I stand by my accusation that you are clueless.
        Here is another book for you NOT to read:
        http://library.mises.org/books/Percy%20L%20Greaves,%20Jr/Pearl%20Harbor%20The%20Seeds%20and%20Fruits%20of%20Infamy.pdf

        Heaven forbid that you should actually learn something before you shoot off your obtuse mouth, Deer.

        • Deerinwater

          Okay David, ~ here is openers to David H book that he finds relevant to the efforts of supreme allied forces efforts to stop Hitler with what ever it takes.

          I copy and paste intriguing openers;

          the goal of the historian of any historical event is to try to
          discover how it happened as an unintended consequence of the
          purposive actions of individuals. And that is the goal of this book,
          as it was also the goal of the post-attack investigations, to determine how and why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and how
          and why Washington officials responded as they did. My husband, Percy Greaves, became interested in the pros and cons of
          the December 7, 1941 attack from the moment he learned, as
          viiviii Pearl Harbor: The Seeds and Fruits of Infamy
          research director of the Republican National Committee during the 1944 Roosevelt-Dewey presidential election campaign,
          that the United States had decrypted the Japanese diplomatic
          code in August 1940 and since then had been reading many of
          Japan’s SECRET and SUPER-SECRET messages. h at secret,
          of course, could not be divulged so long as the war continued
          and we were continuing to decipher Japanese messages and learn
          their secrets.
          After the war ended in August 1945, Congress established
          a Joint Congressional Committee to investigate the attack. As
          Chief of the Minority Staff of that Joint Committee my husband
          researched the pre-attack background, the earlier investigations,
          and the available documents. He helped brief the Republican
          Committee members in questioning witnesses as to what was
          known in Washington about Japan’s plans before the attack, what
          intelligence and materiel had been furnished the Pearl Harbor
          commanders, and whether or not they had responded appropriately, given the available intelligence, materiel, ships, planes, and
          men. h e hearings lasted almost a full year. h e Majority Report
          continued to place considerable blame on the Hawaiian commanders, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel and General Walter C.
          Short. A lengthy Minority Report held that the blame must be
          shared by higher-up Washington offi cials.
          Upon the conclusion of the Congressional Committee hearings, my husband continued to research the Pearl Harbor attack.
          He interviewed surviving participants, wrote and lectured widely
          on the subject. My husband completed this manuscript and wrote
          the side heads. We proofed it together and checked all the quotations and footnotes against the original sources. But then he was
          stricken with cancer, a particularly virulent variety. He died on
          August 13, 1984, just over a month after the appearance of his
          fi rst serious symptoms.
          By the time my husband died, his eff orts had yielded a massive manuscript. When I reread that manuscript after his death, I
          decided that, although the names, dates, and documentation were Editor’s Preface ix
          all there, it was difficult to follow the sequence of events. Events
          alternated with revelations gleaned from the investigations and
          revelations alternated with events. Also Percy had included many
          lengthy supporting quotations within the text itself, interrupting the fl ow of events. In the hope of making the story easier
          to understand, I have arranged everything in chronological order
          and paraphrased the quotes—from FDR’s inauguration and
          his early active intervention in international aff airs through the
          Japanese attack on December 7, 1941, the post attack investigations, the obstacles placed in the path of investigators, down to
          the fi nal reports.
          He and I often talked about this book. As usual I made suggestions; some he accepted; others he rejected. He would say, “If
          anything happens to me then you can do as you please.” Of course,
          he fully expected to finish it himself. But time was not given him
          to do so.
          Although I have reworked my husband’s manuscript, it
          remains his book. h e research and documentation are his. h e
          decision to present events primarily as they were viewed from
          Washington was his. My contribution has been to reorganize,
          revise, and rewrite his manuscript so as to present the events
          chronologically. h roughout, however, I have tried to keep the
          book true to his research and faithful to his interpretation. My
          guiding principle has always been to present the results of Percy’s
          years of research as faithfully and accurately as possible and to
          describe the truth about Pearl Harbor as he saw it.
          Although I am sure Percy would have had some criticism of
          the way I have fi nished his book, on the whole I believe he would
          have approved. I only wish he could have lived to see the research
          of his lifetime published in this form. Any errors or omissions in
          preparing his work for final publication are, of course, my responsibility alone.

          MRS. PERCY L. (BETTINA B.) GREAVES, JR.

          There you are David, I posted the hook offered. For those that enjoy such things, it’s a most interesting read.

          That I am a surviving war veteran and didn’t have a clue why I was prepared to seeing my buddies and what was called the enemy bodies stacked like cord wood still escapes me today.

          i was young, I was stupid, I was a soldier. A good soldier does not ask a lot of questions David.

          But of course, you will never, ever know about such things.

    • Karolyn

      I hate people capitalizing on tragedies by calling them false flags, thereby pushing their own agendas. I choose not to believe that crap unless it is PROVEN otherwise. To some EVERYTHING is part of a conspiracy.

      • DaveH

        But you won’t read any books, so how can we prove anything to somebody who prefers to remain ignorant, Karolyn?
        What gets me is that you Liberal Progressives will get on this board and argue about things you know nothing about and won’t do anything to change that condition of ignorance. And then to top it off, you ignorant people will vote for Politicians to Force your ways on other people. Incredible.

      • Karolyn

        How do you know I don’t read any books, Dave?

      • DaveH

        If you had read this one, Karolyn, you wouldn’t be bad-mouthing people for believing in false-flag events:
        http://library.mises.org/books/John%20V%20Denson/A%20Century%20of%20War%20Lincoln,%20Wilson%20and%20Roosevelt.pdf

        It’s not so much that you don’t know what you’re talking about, Karolyn, but that you bad mouth other people who know much more than you. That’s what I find aggravating.

    • TIME

      Dear Doctor Mom,

      You have hit the “golden nail” on the head, ( saddly as most here beat each other up over something they can’t even prove happened.)

      BTW ~ we were able to crosslink that “LIBOR” conective tissue with out the media nor the alledged “genius ~ journalist” please keep in mind we are just {Business people / Artist / Misicians} and yet we found that “LIBOR” link in well under 2 minutes ~ thats just 180 seconds.

      Please also keep in mind that Public schools have closed circuit video units in them, So where the PROOF of any of the alegations that the mass media has been beating like a dead hourse. hour after hour day after day

      Also this young man was found with two 9mm pistols ~ yet oddly ~ not a single casing from a 9 mm was found. Via ~ (State Police intel posted by the mass media)

      This young man’s 223 was locked in his cars trunk, again ~ Via { State police reports} yet 223 casing were found all over??? Again ~ VIA ~ State police reports, and police dispatch intel.
      So where’s missing the 223?

      This young man had been on “psychotropic drugs” for how many years, ~ Wow ~ now there’s a real shocker.

      This young man wore a bullet proof vest, and a mask, and yet shot himself? Hello, even the “Freudian” theory fails this one.
      Again ~ Via State police intel reported by the mass media.

      The Mass media had his name wrong, ~ hello ~ who fact checks this stuff?

      The mass media stated that this young man killed his wife and child, ~ Again who fact checks this stuff?

      Just who was the person wearing a Black Coat and Camo pants in the woods next to the school where this young man is alleged to have entered, { Again State police intel.}
      As well Eye wittness’s and the Mass media.

      This whole event reeks from top to bottom, even one who is within the most nano sized box can smell the foul stench of this whole event.

      BTW, if any of you care to really review the known evidence at this point in time you will clearly see that this reeks from top to bottom, based only on the {now known} State Police Intel..

      Please do keep in mind that ~if you do speak out ~ as in use your alleged 1st Amendment rights ~ the State police have extended the threat of legal action, now lets talk about a “POLICE STATE” ~ MIND SET.

      Oh no, not here in the land of Babble can any of this happen.

      Hell, { there’s not a single person in the known world} who even know’s the real name of the person sitting at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave ~ now do we? You know only what the mass media has told you, and saddly as we can see they don’t have anyone who checks the work product.

      As a matter of fact we know “nothing” about that person at all. ~ “Not one single thing”

      Oh forgive me I am wrong we do know he is even more of a threat to last vestage’s of FREEDOM than any person who has lived at 1600 Pennsylavania Ave in the last 200 plus year. But I digress.

      PEOPLE PLEASE ~ turn off your “Plastic stupid box’s” DIG to find the TRUTH before you loose the last finger nail of the 1st Amendment you have left!

      Let alone the 2nd Amendment of what is the single thing that keeps a person FREE.
      When that’s gone ~ then the real “mass murder” will begin and it will be very real.

      PEACE & LOVE be with you, Merry Christmas, Shalom, Happy Hanukah

      • DaveH

        It is rather odd, isn’t it Time, that a man would wear a bullet-proof vest and then kill himself? Good catch.

      • Karolyn

        Well, maybe he thought he would be in firefight but ultimately die anyway. He was nuts after all.

      • Kate8

        TIME – Another great post. I’m so glad that rational people are asking questions, seeing the discrepancies in the reported stories.

        Karolyn – Shut up.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Not only a bullet-proof vest, but a mask, as well. Very odd indeed!

      • TIME

        Dear Dave,

        Yes that one hit me like a ton of bricks, what was the Bat Man dude wearing again?
        You know the guy who was {UN- emploied} yet had $20,000 plus worth of Military High Grade Equiptment, that oddly he never showed a single person.

        Lets be real, who would believe any of that crap, and why was it there was no trial?
        Why are the pictures of the alledged Bat Man dude totaly differant, as in a thin nose in the jump suit ~ yet a FAT nose in his alledged Media picture?
        Also the eyes are differant, the ears are set lower too, that is from the Dude in the jump suit, so who is the real Bat Man dude?

        This is nothing more nor less that what I noted a long time ago, { this is the first in a what will become a long line of these events ~ that will just keep on coming.}
        The Mall event in Oregon failed ~ as there was a young man with a gun who spoiled that game.
        These Criminals in DC have to take away the guns to finish the deal, and that pesky 2nd Amendment that this nations founders placed into law for just what it stands for, when TIMES like this come about, the good news is it stands in the way, of CHANGING / TRANSFORMING this nation into a slave state!

        We need to as a nation bring all these criminals in DC to task for thier crimes, as well as the IMF and all the bankers who have raped this nation. They are all criminals.

        ** People you have been placed on Notice what you think is your Government – of what by the way people the same one that I have told you now for what two years is a “Corporation” known as the United States INC, ~

        They are at war with all the people on the land, that means anyone who’s not in the club from DC. That means all of YOU…

        What will it take to wake you all up to this FACT of TRUTH.

        Please read the Pariot act, the National Defence Authorization Act, PLEASE, I beg you for your familys sake, for your own sake, please WAKE UP.

        If your not right with the BIG guy in the sky, again please get straight with him too.
        We are at the end of what you know, and on the road to a whole new ball game, and its the real deal people. Again, IMPLORE you…. WAKE UP

        Peace and Love, Shalom my Brothers and Sisters

        • Deerinwater

          Time, your are a black man and now your Jewish? ~ Come’mon my friend ~ don’t move around so!

          I celebrate your desire to be “fluid” and incorporate the awesome power of the “willow” but never would I attempt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ never mind ~

          you are Good ~~~~~~~~~~I tell myself . Allow me to sleep on this.

      • TIME

        Dear Kate,

        Saddly people are more moved by the Sizzel and not the meat,
        We have a very sick nation that failed its IQ test how many times now?
        Saddly with reckless abandon, as far as I can figure from Johnson on its been just a total Mind F$#@.

        Look into what the real deal is with Star Wars, and the Harp connection.

        Look into the Connective tissue for the number: 11 within the Mystery schools, if this fails to blow your mind nothing will. I am sure you understand the Chapter known as the LIGH

      • Kate8

        Thanks, TIME. I’m familiar with HAARP, star wars, weather modification and screening.

        I also know quite a bit about numerology and the number 11. Hair raising.

        I’m not sure where it is you want me to look. What do you mean about connective tissue? I’m also familiar with several mystery schools, but I’m still not sure of your meaning.

      • DaveH

        That reminds me of the Columbine shootings. Two rabid young killers who were laughing as they killed their victims, and then they kill themselves? I mean, come on, a person has to be beyond naive to believe crap like that. No self-respecting killer would kill themselves when they could go out in a blaze of glory against the cops.

      • DaveH

        Karolyn tries so hard to believe the Propaganda.
        “How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think” — Hitler.

      • Kate8

        DaveH – The libs work so hard to defend the government when it comes to those attempting to look out for the people they destroy in their quest for greater power. They dismiss out of hand the cries of the real victims to be heard, and for their vindication and restitution.

        And these people claim to be so for victims. Alas, only useful victims, who aren’t really victims at all but simply useful wedge issues.

        I have been listening to the story of Columbine and Aurora as told by the victims and witnesses themselves, and by real investigators, and there is so much that has not been told. Law enforcement was involved since well before the shootings, having taken these kids in prior and sodomizing them. This is well documented, but not reported. Were they part of a plan to further traumatize these kids?

        These tragedies go way further than the day of the events. There is no doubt that they were carefully planned and staged. Same with the Arizona incident. A whole lot of high strangeness. And it seems that Judge Roll was, indeed, the target. In fact, why was he there? Judges, and especially federal judges, don’t attend such things by a matter of policy. And it happened just days after he ruled against Obama in his quest to confiscate retirement accounts.

        Thank God the truth is coming out. Too bad there are those who will not hear it.

    • Robert Smith

      Hey Mom, check this out: “The father of Connecticut school shooter Adam Lanza, Peter Lanza, was the tax director for General Electric, a corporation that paid -0- taxes on 14.2 billion dollars in profits last year. ”

      For starters I did a little checking at: http://maxkeiser.com/2012/12/17/mass-shootings-connected-to-libor-scandal/

      Of course we must get to the other side: “Colorado Batman shooter James Holmes, Robert Holmes, was also a LIBOR witness in his position with FICO. According to the link at FICO, Robert Holmes was a ‘Fraud Scientist’”

      WOW, what a coincidence! WOW!

      And then there is reality: “STACY’S NOTE: YES, IN FACT, YOU CAN MAKE IT UP. THIS IS A BIG HOAX STORY ORIGINATING FROM SORCHA FAAL, WHO IS ABLE TO TAP INTO THE PARANOID (let’s keep it “G” rated) UP BRAINS OF AMERICANS who apparently will believe almost anything as long as you allude to a vast government cover up.

      Another interesting theory bites the dust in the face of reality.

      Rob

      • Karolyn

        This is the scary thing. I’ve gotten emails from conservatives with outlandish stories that, if one wants to verify facts, turn out to be hoaxes. The majority of people will not investigate the truth of these storiesbecause they just love more bad news agains the administration or liberals in general, and then they spread them.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Robert: And then there is reality: “STACY’S NOTE: YES, IN FACT, YOU CAN MAKE IT UP. THIS IS A BIG HOAX STORY ORIGINATING FROM SORCHA FAAL, WHO IS ABLE TO TAP INTO THE PARANOID (let’s keep it “G” rated) UP BRAINS OF AMERICANS who apparently will believe almost anything as long as you allude to a vast government cover up.

        Another interesting theory bites the dust in the face of reality.

        So, because somebody tells you its a hoax, you simply believe that its a hoax? How can you be certain that the person who told is a hoax, isn’t in essence performing damage-control? All they said was that its a hoax…hmm.

        Fact: Peter Lanza Tax Director and Vice President – Taxes at GE Energy Financial Services. Cited in mainstream media, GE has been successfully evading paying taxes for some time now. Although the corporation reported global profits of $14.2 billion with $5.1 billion of that total being attributed to American operations, GE claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion. Lanza, would have contributed to the success of GE evading corporate taxes in the US.

        With the use of lobbyists on Capitol Hill, the abuse of tax breaks and creative accounting, GE has been able to pay low tax rates in the US; as well as move their monetary assets into offshore bank accounts.

        While President Obama claims to want to reign in the corporate tax system and stop multi-national companies from cheating the system, he appointed Jeffrey Immelt, GE chief executive, as his chairman on the President’s Council on Jobs and Competiveness, as well as liaison to the corporate community and expert on corporate taxes.

        Fact: Educated at the University of California, Berkeley and Stanford University, Robert Holmes is currently the senior lead scientist with the American credit score company FICO, which was formally known as Fair, Isaac and Company, and which every American citizen is beholden to should they need to borrow money.”

        “Most important to note about James Holmes, however, this report says, is that his father, Robert Holmes, was said to have been scheduled to testify before a US Senate panel on the largest bank fraud scandal in world history that is currently unfolding and threatens to
        destabilize and destroy the Western banking system. Robert Holmes, whose “blueblood” family links go back to the Mayflower, is known throughout the global banking community as being the creator of one of the most sophisticated computer algorithms ever developed and is credited with developing predictive models for financial services; credit and fraud risk models, first and third party application fraud models and internet/online banking fraud models.

        It has to make you stop and wonder, “what are the chances that two of America’s most volatile issues — gun control and the ongoing banking and mortgage crisis and scandal — could be countenanced by a single family?”

      • Kate8

        Jay – I don’t know about the story, but SORCH FAAL is known to be a CIA disinfo source. I suspect the name is an anagram.

      • TIME

        Dear Mr Smith,

        You may care to look into old Maxie, let alone RT do you really think RT is much other than a Mind F%$#?

        But I digress, your an easy drop off, Thats exactly why “dissinformation and missinformation” work so well. Its also called Spin and Damage control.

        What ever ~ You just keep on being you after all its fun to watch, but really quite sad.

        Peace and Love, Shalom.

  • Janice Dempsey

    A beautiful and heartfelt response to this tragedy, Ben.

    • deerinwater

      It was good . ~ I really did not think Ben Crystal had the depth to write from the heart, ~ a pleasant surprise.

      This is heart breaking serious business. ~ Something demand address. ~ I feel it. You feel it and even Ben feel it, while he did not go that far.

      These kind of events can not be allowed to continue, while I support the spirit of the 2nd amendment with all my being.

      I’m willing to jump out there and say ~ Gun owners need to be held responsible for securing their weapons. PERIOD ! ~ A strong security system is mandatory and not an option.

      If gun owners can buy and own weapons without showing any responsibility to secure them, gun ownership is in serious trouble today.

      As far as I’m concern, this Lanza family of gun owners is the perfect place to start demanding responsibility with stiff penalty and jail time while they too suffer great loss.

      I can’t morn for the Lanza family today, try hard as I might.

  • Linda Drury

    I have no desire to jump into the middle of any arguments. I just want to say “thank you” to Ben Crystal for this particular article.

  • ibcamn

    First and foremost,to the families of the victoms,you have my heart…what everybody is missing is maybe some people just snap!if the change is quick enough,nobody in the family or nieborhood is gonna do anything in time(people deny anything is wrong with little timmy,or hey, he’s just going through changes,blah blah blah.nobody wants to admit their kid’s or family members are [expletive deleted] up)as far as prevention,there is not a thing you change in law that will change the outcome of an incedent!if a person has an act of violence in him/her,something’s gonna happen because we don’t know what their gonna do,people just find comfort in looking for answers quickly,most of the time TOO quickly,let’s blame the laws or family or something,RIGHT NOW!! if a family can tell a person is acting diffarent,don’t be afraid to ask questions and offer help.problem is,in our politically correct world nowadays,it may be illegal to help that person,(remember when the law was passed that you cant help a person having a heart attack!)everyone is scared to do something,scared we are gonna get in trouble for helping,sadly,it’s true;too many laws get passed after things like this happen with no outlook to the outcome of that law! violence happens everyday in America,I didn’t hear a thing about gun control or mental health issues when some bikers were murdered in Vegas or in California(by handguns and folding and fixed blade knives!)why is that,one life better than another?don’t let people and the gov’t use this to suffecate our rights and hinder us from getting propper health care!as families we need to bind closer to each other instead of pushing each other away as most family’s seem to be doing nowadays,that’s a big issue with me,FAMILY,and if we get into that(where and who we grow up with) we can’t use differant locations of living or race,because then i’m racist or a bigot or i’m too middle class or against big money,..etc…see what i mean,…you can’t talk about it so [expletive deleted] won’t get done and if it ever can,it will be too late!….(NOBODY knows why yet that this man killed those children and you’re gonna have dozen’s of reasons,please don’t jump to conclusion’s, let’s be a dick about it,maybe the mother abused him as a child and now that she help’s at the school he didn’t want those children to suffer at her hands as he did so he took it upon himself to do what he thought was right and he was helping!!who knows!!OR how about the guy went insane and thought the kids were evil dwarves controlled by his mom!!YOU can go on and on about it,but don’t take action until you find the reason and know the facts,then go about changing things to make corrections)……i’m gonna be a dick again,how about the father who killed his two boy’s then set the house on fire,i didn’t hear a thing about banning axes or anything flammable!!….or matches…….

    • eddie47d

      Your getting a little off course there Ibcamn. That guy who killed his two sons was in a custody battle and it was a personal family matter. Husbands and wives fight all the time and tragedy concurs with someone ending up dead. There are about 20,000 woman in the California prison system for killing their husbands who beat them. Most were done with a gun and in self defense but they still got sent away. Seems like we need to find a better way to solve problems instead of bringing out the “trusty old gun”.

  • ibcamn

    thanx Ben for the writings…sometimes reading the writings of others does help,i could never imagine my children never coming home from school…

  • Stan Galyean

    To many people are presuming that the story the media is spreading is the real story. Just maybe it is all a lie! From what I have read, most of the facts about the mother and alleged killer are false. Then we have to find a motive. The mother did not teach at that school and her son had no history of mental problems. The killings were carried out like professional executions. Could very well be another 911?

    • eddie47d

      Sounds like you are loose with facts yourself to be proclaiming this is a 9/11 event. Whether or not Adam had mental problems or not is important but either way it goes back to his mother who was a gun enthusiasts and loved bragging about them. Maybe she set the stage for her own demise. She took her son to the gun range which she bragged about to a colleague. She apparently wasn’t a responsible gun owner herself. IF he wasn’t mentally insane he surely became such a person by committing such an act. If a “normal” person could do such a thing then there is even greater concern in what a person with so many weapons can do.

      • DaveH

        Eddie says — “Sounds like you are loose with facts yourself to be proclaiming this is a 9/11 event”.
        More projecting from Eddie, the King of “loose” facts. He asked a hypothetical question, Eddie. He didn’t “proclaim” that it was a 9/11 event. Why don’t you quit pestering us with your nonsense, Eddie, and instead spend some time learning English?

    • Karolyn

      You must not be keeping up with developments. The boy was a social outcast, very smart, with no friends. That is standard for many of the mass-murderers. This kid apparently didn’t even have a Facebook page, which is very odd in this day and age. I have also heard that the mother was somewhat of a prepper, hence the guns. It appears that info is hard to come by, and that might be because the mother was not social either. No one apparently knows why she pulled him out of school and home-schooled him.

      • Stan Galyean

        I’m just saying if you are relying on the mainstream media for your information, you may want to think twice about what they are telling us. It could be true but my bet is that it is far from it.

      • Vigilant

        Karolyn, I don’t have a Facebook page. I don’t even have a cell phone (God forbid!). I’m a veteran and a Conservative who believes in limited government IAW the Constitution. I have many acquaintances but few whom I call friends. I own firearms.

        Do those things make me a wack job or potential terrorist? DHS might think so, but what is your “take” on my condition?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        I don’t know, Vigilant, but you sound very dangerous to me. In fact, you are probably as dangerous as i am, since we share so many similarities. Oh oh, i’m a dangerous person…quick, run…save yourselves!!!

      • Jana

        WTS and Vigilant,
        Good posts. All veterans and law abiding citizens are supposed to be dangerous now. So now its time to attack the law abiding citizens, disarm them and let the gangs and the murderers and the rapists etc, prevail.
        NOT ON MY WATCH!

      • Karolyn

        Vig – This is a 20 year old kid. There are VERY few kids who don’t have one; and the number of people over 55 has grown tremendously over the past couple of years. It is an oddity, especially for a kid who was in the Tech club at school, not to have a FB page. That alone points to him being a loner.

      • Karolyn

        These days it is very odd for a 20-year-old not to have a FB page. And actually, the number of people 55 and older with pages has grown tremendously over the past couple of years. No matter what you might think about it, FB is a wealth of info and is assisting in bringing to light a lot of issues that people need to know about. It’s not just for people staying in touch with friends. Campaigns have been launched to assist in addressing issues that threaten personal liberty and strides have been made to help people get justice.

      • TIME

        Dear Karolyn,

        As per the {State Police intel, via the mass media } ~ this young man was a noted Computer WIZ, and yet he has a net of a {ZERO level Internet foot print.}

        That in and of its self shouts problems with the whole story line.
        But I dirgress yet again, Anyone alive today who own a computer has an on IP ~ Foot Print, not unlike even YOU. As per ” Karolyn.”

        Again this whole stoy line is utterly absurd from start to finish and reeks to the hills of a “100% Covert PSYOP.” run by the New World Order thugs.

        Peace and Love Merry Christmas, Shalom Happy Hanukkah

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Karolyn, you’re reaching and more than a bit, with your; he didn’t have a FB account so naturally that makes him a loner and therefore he should be regarded as suspicious. Nonsense! My Son, 12, has no FB account and he’s far from what i would consider “a loner”! He’s too busy playing with all his friends to even care or consider having a FB account. Rather, i think it is kids who have no friends/social-life that may be more inclined to turn to FB and try to develop virtual-friendships. Not exactly healthy, if you ask me! But you may be on to something with FB sub-scribers, Karolyn. Personally, i would keep an eye on them, rather then on the ones who don’t have a FB account!

      • Karolyn

        Wait til he gets a little older, Jay. Why do you and those like you have something against social media (which PLD could actually be called)? Facebook provides education and communication; and what’s wrong with that? It’s also fun. It’s like you have to be against anything that the mainstream accepts. I do believe that most kids and a great many adults are addicted to communication, and that is very sad. I do have a prepaid cellphone and currently have 3800 minutes on it because I don’t use it.

      • DaveH

        Karolyn is unfortunately just one of many. No doubt she and the rest like her will be hoping for “positive” outcomes even as they’re being forced into the rail cars.

      • Karolyn
      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Dave: Karolyn is unfortunately just one of many. No doubt she and the rest like her will be hoping for “positive” outcomes even as they’re being forced into the rail cars.

        ROFLMAO!!! No offence, Karolyn. But that was just too damn funny!

      • deerinwater

        Vigilant says;” Again this whole stoy line is utterly absurd from start to finish and reeks to the hills of a “100% Covert PSYOP.” run by the New World Order thugs.”

        Good observation Vigilant , ~ Spin is not uncommon with such high profile events while we would all like to have the benefit of hard facts.

        The DA office along with the presiding law enforcement jurisdiction will have to sort this out and see that some appearance of Justice is served that might afford reelection and everybody keep their fuddy duddy jobs.

        Not wishing to appear to add to some wild conspiracy ideas, but yes! they do have their hands full when these events goes to trial. It’s dirty work, dirty work that someone must do.

        There will not be one day of these many trial days that will not turn a grown mans stomach inside out. I pity the poor souls that must relive these events for months to see justice is addresses in a serious and meaningful way.

        In as far as New World Order ~ i say your are reaching beyond your knowledge and throwing out labels to explain things that you really can’t explain.

        While I will say to you, YES! The 2nd amendment will come under attack before the final words are said. How could it not? We all understand, an unarmed population is to the elitist advantage. This is a perfect opportunity for them to spin their magic and make an investment.

  • Kathrine

    To Cliffystones
    I completely agree with your comment. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I also have a permit to conceal and carry and am continually frustrated that I am “required” to leave it in my car. What gun control fanatics don’t understand about stricter gun control laws are the only ones that will be restricted are most likely the ones that a person has no reason to fear. I am not saying that a person that legally owns a gun cannot go off the deep end but I do believe the chances go down. The people that we should fear are the ones walking into our theaters and schools are the ones that don’t care if there are laws or not and they won’t care when the laws become more strict. They will still walk into our schools, our theaters, our churches and those of us who are law abiding citizens will have no defense against them because our government took it away. And…we will all become more of a target because criminals will know that the chance of going up against someone that is legally armed is slim to none.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

    Let’s face it, folks. If the teachers had been armed and properly trained in the use of fire-arms, this tragedy would not have occurred. The fact that all faculty in the school were un-armed and therefore helpless, is precisely the reason the gun-man(s) chose the school as their theatre of operations!!! Lets do what is right and morally decent for a change. Lets get some guns into the hands of administrators and teachers so they can adequately protect the children and avert a similar tragedy in the future. As we all know, criminals do not obey gun-contol laws, therefore, it is critical that we arm ourselves and all those in charge of the helpless against the criminal-sickos!!! Hopefully, we can end the life of a few of these sickos and spare the inept, cowardly and corrupt, justice-system some embarrassment. The justice system is completely corrupt and useless, so there’s no point in relying on the justice-system!!!

    Thomas Jefferson: “No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

    “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”

    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms… disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. ”

    “And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. … The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

    George Washington: “Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence.”
    James Madison: “The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation … (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”

    Alexander Hamilton: “If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all forms of positive government.”

    Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”

    Tench Coxe: “Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American. … The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”

    George Mason: “Who are the militia? They consist of the whole people, except a few public officers.”

    Noah Webster: “The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.”

    John Adams: “Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would.”

    Samuel Adams: “And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.”

    Benjamin Franklin: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
    safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    David Houle: Today, 100 million American gun owners, killed no one.

    Jesus according to Luke:22:36: Then said he unto them, ,,,,,, and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    Remember, folks; the useless police-force won’t be there to protect you. The police only arrive after the fact, and only to clean-up the mess!

    • TIME

      Dear WTS JAY,

      Oddly I can recall when I was a child in school, I can’t even count how many times children brought in their Dads war trophys, like MP 40 Machine guns, and Tompson Subs, Colt 1911′s, Lugar’s etc for show & tell.. Even girls did it.

      Oddly we never had a single child shot, nor did any one ever threaten to kill other children.

      WHY ~ we didn’t have these insane games to play on the computer like children of today play daily, Like { ” CALL OF DUTY”} ~ nor did we have movies that display killing and blood letting – daily, weekly , monthly.
      Nor did we have TV shows that display killing someone every damm day..

      Its not guns ~ its the {{“social structure” }} we have allowed – as in our Cosmology of death and killing thats the problem, then add in “Psychotropic drugs ~ steriods in the food, GMO’S and who’s to blame for all of this? “””Corporate Fascism!”””

      When we were kids we built forts and played baseball, climbed trees, went swiming in
      the lake, and yes we even shot guns at targets, watermellons etc. Every child I grew up around had a rifle or shotgun I had a Colt Woodsman, and a German P 38 and a 22 Cal rifle, and when I was 16 I picked up a shotgun for hunting birds / ducks.

      BUT and its a big but ~ we learned how to use guns with {{“respect” }} for what they can do. We understood that if we did shoot a gun at a person it was only for “self defence.” .

      I am 60 plus years old and have never had to shoot anyone for any reason, for that I thank GOD for his GRACE,

      I strongly believe that only “FREE PEOPLE” have guns, as soon as they are taken away by any MAN you then become their slave,
      I for one will not become a slave to any MAN for any reason.

      And anyone who has a single brain cell still working should never allow any form of Government no matter what they claim to take your guns away for any reason ever. And with the Financial meltdown thats just around the bend, we all need to now fight harder than ever to ensure that the 2nd Amendment is not a Casualty of the
      “Corporate Fascist” / Progressive movment we have running this nation into the ground today.

      Again as I noted above in one of my post, Not one single person in the world really knows who Barry Obama really is, as a matter of fact the only thing we do know about him is that he thinks nothing of destroying whats left of the few freedoms we have. That was displayed loud and Clear on Decemver 31st 2011 when he signed the NDAA. He alos re~uped the PA, and..

      People this is “NOT A GAME” Its for REAL, and if you all don’t start
      waking up very soon, you will all end up not unlike the Jewish people in German and Europe during the 1930′s – MAY ~1945. GOLDMAN SAKS the ROTHSCHILD, The ROCKEFFELLERS and all the bankers from the IMF, and the FEDERAL Reserve the Wolrd bank etc.. They are thye enemy,

      Americans get your acts together NOW.
      There is no Left nor Right, there are no D’s or R;s as they are all owned by the above.

      PEACE & LOVE, Shalom

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

      Hey Time, you must be as old as i am, as your childhood sounds very similar to mine. Yeah, i can remember borrowing my Dad’s hunting rifles and spending a full day coon, and rabbit-hunting, fishing, and wrestling with the neighbourhood kids. Lots of fun! Also, grew up on a farm, so there was a lot of chores and hard work to be done as well. But when all our chores were done, i would get together with my neighbourhood friends and have grand old time. Always outside, never inside, unless it was to chow-down or hit the hay. Our sophisticated technology consisted of a rotary-phone and a black and white. No cable bills, and the channels were all free, about three in total, and that was on a clear and sunny day. TIMES have certainly changed since then, that’s for sure! I tend to agree with you, the latest and greatest in technology has come a long way, and its effect on the new generation, quite disturbing! You mentioned your concern regarding “video-games” and the, “not possible”, but indeed, negative effects on our children.

      Check out this article and let me know what you think:

      http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/occult-rpg.htm

  • TIME

    To All of you,

    I don’t sell books nor do I tell people to buy a product / products, BUT ~ I strongly feel that all of you can and will learn something by looking into: ( Chris Hedges,)

    One of his books that I strongly feel ALL of you should read is called,
    ” Death of the Liberal Class”

    You can also look up youtube interviews with him, these would do all of you a TON of good.

    As most of you live here in the states and don’t leave for any amount of TIME, thus your views are bent due to the “INDOCTRINATION” you have suffered through over the last 100 years ~
    Yet saddly the most intense part of this mind control has been over the last 35 years.

    You can wake up, or you will suffer far worse a fate than any of you can fathom.

    Peace and Love, Shalom,

    • eddie47d

      You better hope the Liberal Class doesn’t die off. I have never met so many scary members of the Conservative Class over the last 3 years and what they would do if in power. They have their own class of rights that will be taken away from others.

      • DaveH

        As usual, Eddie, you’re full of it. The scariest people, by far, that I know, are Progressives who think nothing of Forcing their ways on other people.
        Like you, Eddie. For some reason, ignorant people seem to be compelled to Force their way on others.

        • Tracy

          What’s the difference between a Conservative and a Liberal?

          If a Conservative decides to become a vegetarian, he quits eating meat.

          If a Liberal decides to become a vegetarian, he wants EVERYONE to quit eating meat!

      • Jana

        Tracy,
        OH so TRUE!!

    • eddie47d

      What’s the matter Dave H forget to eat lunch again? If someone dishes out sarcasm I think we’re capable of dishing it back. Who invited you to the party anyway?

  • HKaufman

    Who and or what are the Real Terrorists in AMERICA?,, GUNS, the one who holds a weapon of Mass People Destruction. Why are Assult weapons being sold and or ordered thru the mail. Zero tolerance an Answer?? Maybe. Recognize signals that someone or a lot of someone’s might have a bit of problem swimming between the ears and housed inside the Occipital Protuberance. Examine the mind that purchased the assault weapon.

    An intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact or the purpose of carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal or civil liability. 20 plus family’s life’s shattered by yet another insane act of VIOLENCE. DEC 14 2012 will ring as another DAY of INFAMY in AMERICA.. True only man kind kills, if the weapon of mass people destruction becomes harder and harder for PUBLIC USE.. The Flip side, NRA with their ever present Rhetoric owning a weapon that keep allowing one to own a Weapon.. Rent the Movie Violence in America, then think back in history, Abe Lincoln,John F Kennedy,Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King.. How many more innocents lives will it take to END this Terror in America..

    • BobfromSoCal

      As the evil in this world grows exponentially, and the populations mental health is so quickly deteriorating. That is reason enough to want a gun or an equalizer against overwhelming force that one may encounter. If it is not a gun it will be a chainsaw or any other myriad of weapons that the crazies will use against you. There is no stopping crazy. With the doctors and institutions handing out SSRI’S or antidepressents like candy you can expect to see many more tradgies like this in the future. I for one feel the need to be prepared for whatever is going to come against me in the future. If you don’t like guns don’t get one. But don’t take away my ability to defend myself.

      • Jana

        Bob,
        You are so right. If they don’t have a gun they can use a knife, a hatchet, a rock in a sock, a car, or a bomb. I am sure someone with a warior mentality would even know of more things to use as weapons. Muslims use acid.
        In China the man killed 22 or 24 children and the teacher with his hatchet.
        When someone is wanting to hurt or kill, the only thing that will stop them is if the target/victim has a gun.

      • eddie47d

        Are you a professional liar Jana?? All 22 kids in China survived!

    • DaveH

      Your fears are misplaced, HKaufman. The people we need to fear the most, but for the most part fear the least, are these people:
      http://www.whale.to/b/callahan1.html

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        For anyone who wishes or ponders what it would be like to live in a un-armed society, where only criminals are armed, need only look to Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., as a micro-model. Of course, you will be told that your law-enforcement agency will be there to protect you, just like they protected the un-armed faculty at Sandy hook Elementary! Boy, that’s some protection, wouldn’t you say? And to think we, the tax-payers, pay large to have these fat-azzed, donut-eaters protect us. Yeah, right, what a waste of money!

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Sorry Dave, i was about to respond to your good-link, but was side-tracked. Hence, the above comment.

        Unfortunately Dave, very few people will read your linked article. I think everybody should, and familiarize themselves with the savages that have put themselves in authority over us. Demented bunch of Ghouls, if you ask me!!!

  • Neil Swan

    This guy was obviosly insane like the guy in Colorado that shot
    people in the movie theater.
    This one shot his mother, and a bunch of 6 and 7 year old kids
    their women teachers and 2 other school women.
    Then he shot himself. We should keep guns away from the insane.

    Neil

    • DaveH

      Then you’re suggesting that we disarm the Government?

  • BobfromSoCal

    Instead of people blaming God for these tragedies, and saying that this is proof that God does not exist. They should place the blame where it should be, with the Devil, and proclaim that this is absolute proof that Satan is real and wants to destroy you.

    • Robert Smith

      “Instead of people blaming God for these tragedies, and saying that this is proof that God does not exist. ”

      Well, if he exists then as has been demonstrated before by flooding the world, taking Sodom and Gomorrah out, and having his own kid (or himself depending on…) tortured to death he’s kinda brutal.

      How else can one think of a rape victims pregnancy as a “gift from god?”

      Sounds kinda like a really brutal and sick god to me.

      Rob

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

      The public-education system demanded that God stay out of the schools, and like the gentleman that He is, He respected their CHOICE!

  • jopa

    Well I must say that was a well written article by Ben Crystal today and it shows he truly does have a heart.I know down the road the personal visuals we have of these children being slaughtered will wear off and the argument for assault rifles will continue.I do believe they may be on to something(Congress) by limiting clip capacity or limiting firearm rounds to no more than ten consecutive shots.This is a small step that may have a big positive impact and not trample on anyone’s 2nd amendment rights.Did a lot of hunting when I was younger and after that first initial shot, any after that were just a waste of ammo.There is no need in a sports-mans world for these multi shot clips and are just for someone that wants to shoot a lot of rounds fast and pretend he is the ultimate GI Joe.

    • DaveH

      Please.
      Watch this, Jopa, and then tell us again that limiting to 10-round clips would make any difference:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto

      • Robert Smith

        Do you think the kid practiced reloading?

        Do you think one of those teachers wouldn’t have taken advantage of the 5 or 6 seconds it would take to reload?

        BTW, I don’t think capacity has anything to do with it but the questions will be asked. I don’t care if you stuff a million rounds in a drum or whatever magical device they use in Hollywood for the never empty guns that by itself will make zero difference.

        The real issue is to PREVENT before. The most logical course for that is mental health availability.

        It’s clear the kid had red flags up long before this. He was a disciplinary problem where his mother was called to school multiple times. He had shown self destructing behavior (it’s called “cutting” as a generic although that encompasses several behaviors).

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Now this guy understands and practices gun-control very well, Dave. Exceptional!

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Do you think one of those teachers wouldn’t have taken advantage of the 5 or 6 seconds it would take to reload?”.
        5 or 6 seconds? You have bad arthritis in your fingers, Robert? Now I’m beginning to wonder if you’ve even been honest when you claimed to be an NRA instructor. If so, what were you instructing — the proper way to lace your boots?

  • John Lilleburnes Ghost

    Lets face it you can massacre people with a sock and a few large batteries if you put your mind to it, buts its hard. A high capacity magazine and a hand gun or a semi-auto fifle make it easy because they are a tool specifically designed to kill people quickly and efficiently. It is stupid to complain when someone uses a tool for the purpose it which it was designed. The people kill people argument is specious & deliberately misleading Americas homicide rates are horrific solely because of its high gun ownership no other reason. Tools that allow people to murder easily should be banned end of. Hunting? if you need a semi-auto to hunt you shouldnt be allowed to hunt because you are inept. Well regulated militia at the time of writing meant 3 volleys within a set time, personally I have met so many scary bad shots out there I think it should mean not allowed a gun until you have completed some skills and competency training. Of course many of you will disagree but lots of you seem to associate gun ownership with who you are are. As for the people on here as saying its the fault of TV shows or games if you cant regulate killing tools you are hardly going to regulate TV are you. By the way the fact that the average american child sees 10,000 murders on TV is wrong

    • http://midcontent brand inspector

      John, sound just like most socialisy/marxist democraps. Why does liberials blame the magizine numbers, when all of the librtial morons drive in 300-500 horse powered cars, when a 3.5 hp motor off of a lawn mower could get you from point a-b? Just dreamed up BS to take citizens rights away, to control the population easier. Check out any country that has an unarmed citizens. Veitnam, Nazi Germany, and any other dictator ruled country, and check for deaths of citizens that can not be explained.

  • http://GiveMeLiberty John

    Ben, so sorry but where you left off in giving it all to the Almighty, the masses just couldn’t help but jump on the trash bandwagon. In comment after comment, it almost seemed like they didn’t read your article!

    Very eloquent and so well written! Thank you for a kinder and higher viewpoint!

    • DaveH

      I read it, but all the feigned solemnity in the world won’t bring those children back.

  • Deerinwater

    It’s damn shame, ~ that just a few gun owners neglect can greatly affect every gun owner and future gun owner in America. ~

    But that is the way it will go down. The 2nd amendment will stand while assault weapons and high capacity clips sales will be ban ~ I fear.

    The administration is not going to “sit” on this ~ Katy8 ~ prepare for more “stuff” to be crammed down your throat by the Obama administration.

  • figmo

    Most, if not all, of these mass murderers were taking prescribed anti-depressant medications. These px’s have long been know to sometimes produce the side effects of violence and suicide. Since we dare not cut into the multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industy’s profits maybe it’s time for the victims’ families to start suing these companies for knowingly putting these dangerous products in the market place.

  • http://www.biblelawversusconstitution.org Ted R. Weiland

    “The December 14, 2012, Newtown, Connecticut, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting has impacted all Americans—but not necessarily in the same way. Nor should we expect it would. Regardless which side of the gun debate we find ourselves on, all of us grieve for the families of those whose loved ones were killed. However, beyond our shared empathy, we will respond to this needless murdering of innocent lives in ways that reflect our individual world views….

    “As expected, the anti-gun establishment immediately started calling for stricter gun-control measures, while Second-Amendment proponents reiterated their worn-out retorts that ‘guns don’t kill, people do,’ ‘you can have my gun when you pry it from my dead cold fingers,’ etc., etc., etc. We’ve heard it all before. But such posturing and any laws that have resulted from either side’s position didn’t make a lick of difference to the twenty children and eight adults and their families in Newtown last week. For that matter, they haven’t made any difference in any other similar shooting. Something’s wrong with this picture!

    “While both sides of the debate focus on whether or not we should have guns (a legitimate debate), the underlying issues are seldom identified, let alone dealt with from a Biblical paradigm. And the genesis of America’s moral depravities is almost never addressed….”

    For more, see “Newtown Massacre, America’s Cultural Abyss, and Gun-Free Zones” at http://www.constitutionmythbusters.org/newtowns-massacre-todays-cultural-abyss-and-gun-free-zones/.

  • Rennie

    A sick bastard who sat on a couch all day playing violent computer games kills 20 kids, and creates loud demands for repealling our constitutional rights. An even sicker bastard using remote control weapons sits on his couch and watched live as 173 children were killed in another country, and he has a Nobel peace prize and is Time magazine man of the year.

  • Robin Bateman

    I am glad there are still people here on earth who still believe in God. He has given us our agency and we choose the things we do with our lives. Remember, opposition in all things or we wouldn’t know the good. I hope more of us choose the good.

  • Stephen S. Fisher

    I know we are in great trouble. But I have been in the deep bush in Africa, and have internet only when I next go to town, for the past 50 years as of march 2013. I have witnessed many horrific things, lived through 4 wars, and was held hostage 10 days and am the only christian that escaped death by gun shot. Why did I not die? God our gracious Father was”not finished with me yet. I weep with you and the others! But i’m learning to cope, I must seek first the “Kingdom of God” And His Rightous ness. And his Rightousness,!! This then keeps me and gudes me on track so I can maintain my sanaty and stay sucessful when every thing is falling apart. I just love the word of God! God Bless you and keep on telling the good news. And have a great Christmas and a great 2013. Stephen

  • http://yahoo.com Joann Flanagan

    In the wake of the Guyana Tragedy would it be advisable to enact strick cool-aid control laws to ensure only those who meet with government approval be licensed to purchase,own and process cool-aid?
    Joann Flanagan

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