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A Thanksgiving Lesson We Need Again

November 23, 2012 by  

A Thanksgiving Lesson We Need Again
PHOTOS.COM

Many years ago, I was hired by a national conservative organization and given an interesting job assignment: travel the country and introduce conservative principles to high school and college students. To say it was sometimes challenging would be the understatement of the year.

After some trials and more than a few errors, I hit upon a couple of anecdotes that seemed to resonate with many members of my audiences. In the first one, I asked them to imagine what would happen if one day the teacher said something like this:

Some of you did very well on yesterday’s test. I’m happy to report that many of you earned As and B’s. But others didn’t do nearly as well, and I’m sorry to say that there were also many Ds and even a few Fs.

Today we’re going to conduct an experiment in equality. I’m going to take some points from those of you who did well and give them to those students whose scores were much lower. All of you who got As will lose some points to those who got Fs. Those with Bs will give some points to those with Ds. As a result of this redistribution, everyone will end up with a C.

Then, I asked the students what they thought the result of this experiment would be. Sometimes, the responses got very lively — especially if I was talking to a high school or junior high school class. The older sophisticates in college were much more blasé in their responses.

I heard a lot of “that wouldn’t be fair” and “you can’t do that.” But when they calmed down a bit, almost everyone agreed that if this grade redistribution continued, all grades would go down. The students who normally worked hard for an A or a B wouldn’t work as hard. Many of them would start getting Cs. And even those in the bottom half would not try to do better, so their grades would suffer, too. In time, the entire class would not be doing as well as it had been.

It was an interesting way to lead into my larger point about the benefits of competition and rewarding success. I said that the incredible prosperity we enjoyed in this country was thanks to the free-enterprise system and allowing people to keep the fruits of their own labors.

The young students in my audiences seemed to enjoy the discussions, even when they weren’t sure about my conclusions. Interestingly enough, in several cases the most vocal opponent wasn’t a student, but the teacher in the classroom. And don’t get me started on some college professors I encountered.

Another story I shared that always got a lively response, especially among older students, was when I told them about how our Pilgrim forefathers practiced a form of communism when they first arrived on our shores. And what a miserable failure it was until they abandoned it in favor of any early form of capitalism.

Let me share that lesson with you now, on the day after Thanksgiving. I think you’ll agree it contains some very important truths for us today.

The Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth Rock in December 1620 were motivated by the noblest of virtues. They had vowed to be as selfless as possible and to always put the needs of the group first.

Because provisions were so scanty, they decided that the land would be worked in common, all produce would be owned in common and goods would be rationed equally. It was the agrarian version of Karl Marx’s dictate “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”

Unfortunately, this utopian idea did not work very well. Pilferage from the storehouse became common. Suspicions of malingering were muttered. Over the course of that first harsh winter, nearly half of the colonists perished. Four families were wiped out entirely. Only five of 18 wives survived. Of the 29 single men, hired hands and servants, only 10 were alive when spring finally came.

But the colonists struggled on for two more years. Armed guards were placed around the storehouse. All of the able-bodied men were asked to work longer and harder. But by the spring of 1623, all of their provisions were gone. Unless things drastically improved, they feared few would survive the next winter.

That’s when the Pilgrim leaders decided on a bold course. The colony would abandon its communal approach and permit each person to work for his own benefit, not for the common good.

What happened then seemed like a miracle. Here is how the Governor of the colony, William Bradford, described the results. This is from his marvelously readable memoir (if you can make adjustments for the Old English spellings), History of Plimoth Plantation:

The experience that was had in this commone course and condition, tried sundrie years, and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the vanitie of that conceite of Plato & other ancients, applauded by some of later times; — that ye taking away of properties, and bringing it in communitie into a commone wealth, would make them happy and flourishing; as it they were wiser than God.

For this comunities (so farr as it was) was found to breed much confusion & discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefite and comforte. For yet young men that were most able and fitte for labor & services did repine that they should spend their time & strength to worke for other men’s wives and children without any recompense.

Once they replaced communal efforts with individual responsibility, the differences were dramatic — and life-saving. Men went into the fields earlier and stayed later. In many cases, their wives and even their children (some barely past the toddler stage) worked right alongside them.

More acres were planted, more trees were felled, more houses were built and more game was slaughtered because of one simple change: People were allowed to keep the fruits of their own labors. For the first time, instead of scarcity, the Pilgrims enjoyed abundance. The colony not only survived, it thrived. In gratitude for their bounty, they held the first celebration of Thanksgiving in this country.

On this Thanksgiving weekend, some 352 years after the Pilgrims celebrated the first of this uniquely American holiday, let us remember the sacrifices they made, the devotion they showed and the lessons they learned.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • phideaux

    Absolutely correct Chip.

    • Robert Smith

      “Pilferage from the storehouse became common. Suspicions of malingering were muttered. ”

      Really? But these folks were of the nobelest true believers in their religion. Why would they sink to such corruption?

      Rob

      • http://Yahoo Marianne Pearce

        Despiration: All ideals will vanish when it becomes life or dealth. Anyway, that is not true communism in the sense you see it practiced in history: Stalin, Moa. Christians would have done the same thing as far as sharing their food.

      • Vigilant

        The usual obsessive and uncalled-for condemation of Christians by RS. You may claim to be an angel or saint (figuratively speaking), but Christians don’t and never have.

        Lose the obsession, sonny.

      • http://gravatar.com/brotherpatriot BrotherPatriot

        They also were just…human.

        History has proven over & over…that a free market stabalizes itself. That a free people self regulates itself.

        We need to reduce big brothers influence in all our lives. Voting in the globilists will only bring their mentality to fruitition. We simply need more “real” conservatives in office who don’t just play lip service to the Constitution. We NEED to flush the government squatters and implement something like this…

        Congressional Reform Act of 2012

        1. No Tenure/No Pension

        A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they’re out of office.

        2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.

        All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

        3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

        4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.

        Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

        5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

        6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

        7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 12/1/12.

        The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen/women. Congress made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career.

        The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

        If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S. to receive the message.

        Don’t you think it’s time?

        THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!

        God Bless!

      • Mark

        It’s called “The Human Condition”, aka sin.

      • JeffH

        RS said, “Really? But these folks were of the nobelest true believers in their religion. Why would they sink to such corruption?”

        Unbeknownsed to them, they were the early colonial progressives.
        Take a peek in your mirror Rob, you’ll see all of the similarities of those early sectarian colonial progressives minus the costume.

      • Vigilant

        Thanks to R.S.’ obsessions, he misses the whole point of the article. It’s not a psychological treatise on the foibles, frailties and motives of people; it’s about the abject failure of SOCIALISM every time it’s been tried.

        Denying factual history or attempting to draw attention away from the thrust of the article: that’s the mission of the progressives.

        • Jack Worthington

          You are quite right, Vigilant, IMHO. Social justice or social compact are clever devices that cover for commie/socialism. Likewise, Liberation Theology is a front for commie/socialism, though many well meaning people do not recognize it. Most political actions with the term “liberation” in their titles are fronts for commie/socialism.

      • Dad

        Socialism (or communism) has never worked and never will… you will always have the coasting 47% looking for a handout. The truth hurts…

      • GALT

        HHHHMMMMM don’t really have the patience for this nonsense today and taking
        a quick scroll down, the anticipated product of the “fruits of one’s labor” inevitably led
        to “property rights”…….”morality” and “theft” ( by taxation and other means ) an
        of course the rather idiotic dispute of the nature and/ or existence of the Social Contract…

        All of this will be dealt with in the near future…….but today, given that the “usual suspects”
        have made statements specifically regarding morality and theft…..only one point
        need be made…….

        Since you all claim to be “moral” and do not believe in “theft”, I expect that you will
        be packing your bags and going back to where ever it is you came from……because ALL
        of the land in this hemisphere was “stolen” from it’s rightful owners……..

        The intervening time frame does not alter the TRUTH of this…..even if you PAID
        for what you possess…..or believe you possess…..it was paid to a thief and you are
        guilty of receiving stolen property……..

        There is no intelligent or logical defense that can be made to alter this fact…..and
        that leads us to another FACT…….any statements made claiming to respect private
        property…..or that they are “moral”. people…….are lies. ( and you are HYPOCRITES, )

        So the best thing is to be very quiet and NOT RESPOND to this post by claiming
        otherwise…….

        You all have a nice weekend………..

        • Jack Worthington

          Well, Ayn Rand’s Galt spiel was indeed a commie/socialist rant that made for a very slow ~75 page read and it exposed the fallacy of commie/socialism in which Rand was well versed. Going with your logic, to whence go we to return the land or property? I submit that the Slanderer Oppresser, Devil Satan, has dominion of the Earth, for a while, and so while many strive to the ethic/morality of 10 Commandments, so too, many fail. Yet, to try to go back to Noah is unreasoable. I do not think it practiable to give back to the Indians the entire North America. I do like the 50 year Jubilee of Leviticus 25:10. I do not see a resolution of the battle over land in the middle east either. Respecting private property is not hypocritical just because all wrongs cannot be undone. Nor does repecting private property give sanction to stealing, looting or lyng. Sanctioning a government/politician/enforcerment agent/judge to loot A to satisfy B is wrong, legal plundering is criminal. People can simply refuse to consent to tyranny by refusing to convict on such simple things as traffice tickets where there is no damage to person or property. The Fed-government consort to operate a fiat currency/credit system is criminal and has been the source of financing the wars of slaughter and numerous peacetime economic disasters. What makes one think that inhabitants of a land are rightful owners then raises the question, from whom did they acquire it and ought not we go back before them? In the end, it is God’s creation and He has allowed the Devil dominion of it. And so we get to say what goes. If the mob, the majority, can dictate then we are toast. Ignorance is bliss but leads to the abyss.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Yes Dad those lazy “coasting 47% looking for a handout”. Those military veterans and elderly and working poor who have jobs and pay payroll taxes. I say these groups because if you are talking about the same 47% Romney used all those groups fall into that.

      • John J.

        Of the 102 people on the Mayflower, only 37 were Separatists who were fleeing to North America for religious freedom. There were quite a few problems caused by the non Separatists.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Where would Robert Smith and Jeremy L. be without their Victim Groups that they profess so vehemently to care about?

      • Robert Smith

        JeffH claims: “you’ll see all of the similarities of those early sectarian colonial progressives minus the costume.”

        Nope, I have little in common with them. I’m NOT christian and I DO believe in capatalism.

        My argument is against the chrony capitalism and the non-productive looters and moochers that make up so much of the 1%.

        Rob

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Yes Nadzieja those veterans and elderly and working poor. You know those victim groups. What would I be if I did not have to worry about these groups being lambasted as lazy and dependent on government. Why should I worry about some thing like that.

      • GALT

        Despite the warnings there is someone that is a complete retard…yes Mr.Worthington….I mean you….time is irrelevant and theft is theft…..

        To be consistent……since all the land is stolen……..there is nothing wrong with
        someone else stealing it from you…….

        So your rule is Might makes Right…….and given enough time, you can
        claim property rights……..and pretend it didn’t happen……..

        But, this is exactly the situation you are in and complaining about…..
        because YOU are the victim now………..and for you the thieves are
        government and the corporations that have corrupted them……

        “As ye sow, so shall ye reap.” some might even call it “justice”…..
        as ironic as it is…….

        Is there anyone else???????

        • Jack Worthington

          Galt, you can’t possibly assume that all the wrongs can be undone. So one must deal with reality. We do the best we can and we make mistakes. And while Nirvana school might have taught us that might does not make right, the reality is that evil uses might to compel anyone who would say otherwise. No, stealing is not right just because it has happened previously, where such nonsensical belief originates is close to Hell; it is dishonorable.Two wrongs do not make a “right.” It is true that politicians are thieves and the people who elect them are participants in the crimes committed under the color of law. It is true that politicians are corrupted by people from all walks of life, not just corporations. And it is true that those who sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind. Value is subjective, it depends on time and place, so time is relevant. Lots of people sin, so it is not surprising that residents of Plymouth Colony sccumbed to theft when they reached dire straights; it happens all the time. Sometines “good” people do bad things, especially when they are desperate.

          • Jeff

            Do you get paid by the cliche or what? All politicians are criminals? Even the ones you vote for? And voters are complicit in their crimes? You’ve got to be kidding.

          • Jack Worthington

            Galty, get real. Yes, politicians are criminals. From what planet have you just arrived? People who sanction criminals are participants in crime. Noting rocket science in there. You need a reality check, dude.

      • JeffH

        Robert, only in your mind son!

        • Jeff

          What do the people pictured have in common? Well, one is JeffH’s hero. Guess which one. Sieg heil, you Nazi Jerk.

      • JeffH

        Troll on childish Jeff, troll on… :)

        • Jeff

          Nazi Jerk:

          Define troll as used in your world (The Fourth Reich?).

      • GALT

        Ah, but Mr Worthington I make no assumptions, I have reduced the “logic” of your
        position to its basic form……..and you have returned to defend it, by doing exactly
        what the “reduction” indicates……..

        The only question that remains is the number of years that are required to pass
        before the original theft reaches the “moral statute of limitations” you are attempting
        to assert…..and by which you can now claim to have established “property rights”?

        This would seem to suggest a position of “moral relativism” as noted in the “reduction”
        which again seems to arise based on who the victim is.

        Even in our legal system there are crimes which have no statute of limitation, two
        of which are murder and FRAUD.

        So thank you for your efforts in confirming by demonstration ( Q.E.D. ) what had
        already been offered to you…….maybe the next WARNING will make more of an
        impression. An indication that you are probably headed in the wrong direction is
        if you find yourself in the company of ( DavidH, Jay ( of the new identity ) JeffH.
        Vigilant, and several others ) you should also know the articles presented here
        are for the purposes of “mushroom feeding” and simply employ words which
        appeal to the non-critically thinking minds that salivate each time the bell is rung.

        This story is no exception……Thanksgiving is an English Tradition which was quite
        familiar to the “pilgrims” who arrived from “England”…..it is a harvest festival, quite common to many cultures and was held after the “harvest” in 1621. ( specific
        details are easy to access )

        One of the questions that should have occured to “someone” here…..given todays
        “salivating” words was……….why is “private property” a motivator……..but DEATH
        from starvation is NOT?

        The concept of “communal cooperation” based on mutual survival was quite
        successful for the 195, 000 years, give or take, that preceded agriculture and
        the rise of so-called civilization……and despite the claims…..has always played
        an integral part……of most cultures. Present day example of such enterprises
        which do succeed…..would be the kibbutz……

        Of course much of the problem here on this site is the assumption that most
        people actually understand the meaning of words……

        “From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs. ”

        I submit to you no one can know the meaning of these words, unless one
        makes assumptions regarding the two key components……and since these
        can be altered…….based on the assigned value…….”communism” has
        several interpretations…….

        What is more important to understand, is that communism and socialism did
        not arise in a vacuum…..in terms of “modern day” economic theory…….they
        were a response to the “economy” of the time……..which was “failing” to
        meet the needs of the people…….

        Finally, since it is common for the “mushrooms” to use words in a pejorative or
        prejudicial way…….. ( believing this in and of itself is an ARGUMENT, and a
        testament to their claims of intelligence ) I would like to introduce myself.

        The name is GALT and I am ( for labeling purposes ) an e.i . P.L.F.

        As regards my actual position on “economics” it is “in total” a non empirical,
        non discipline which “invalid”…..and reasons for this position can be found
        in “Economics Unmasked”……..which you can also find the details of, rather
        simply…….( specific variations are irrelevant since they will all fail )

        In any case thank you for your time, Mr. Worthington……hopefully, this will be
        of some assistance to you……..regarding any future exchanges that may
        occur between us……….

      • Old Henry

        Brother Patriot:

        My Congressman was a staunch supporter of this and was a citizen legislator. He was replaced with a Communist Party hack on November 6. Mostly due to re-districting to include more areas with union slugs and parasites of the do-nothing kind.

      • DaveH

        What’s with all the ellipses, Galt? Are they like pregnant pauses while you take a toke on your doobie or count your meds?
        Hey, I’m Galt:
        Maritime law …………….(long drag)………….. naval maneuvers………….yeah they’re happening now………….. but wait…………………can’t see my navel…………(puff)………….oh, not that naval……(another toke)….my awareness is heightened………….common law……(drag)…..functional illiterate you are……….that leads to another fact……..……..(really long drag)……………….don’t respond, because I’ll be in a Coma.

      • GALT

        Is it possible that DavidH has inadvertently stumbled across something significant,
        a clue perhaps…………Ah, the elements of style.

        Thank you David………imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery ( or fear, in your case )

        My ” secret weapon ” has done it again.

        I am a bit curious as to why he would go through the trouble…..I mean,
        as we can see “style” has no effect on the relevant content or intelligence
        of what he is attempting to communicate……………..

        Well, whatever it was…………….he obviously couldn’t find the material he needed
        to quote me directly.

      • vicki

        Galt writes about words and their meanings by saying:
        ““From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs. ”

        I submit to you no one can know the meaning of these words, unless one
        makes assumptions regarding the two key components……and since these
        can be altered…….based on the assigned value…….”communism” has
        several interpretations…….”

        Destroy the meaning of words is a rather typical thing for progressives to do. We have seen many examples. Clinton used a very famous one in his defense of having sexual relation with an employee while at least he if not both were on the job.

        Lets look however at the quoted communist sound byte.

        From each according to their ability,
        Each slave shall be worked to exhaustion as best fits the demands of the master.
        To each according to their needs. Slaves need very little. Ipods and Cell phones are not on that list.

        Perhaps GALT is attempting backward psychology to try and get us to realize the failings of Communism

      • vicki

        GALT makes the claim (without any substiating evidence) that the land of North America was stolen from somebody but fails to say who. It was not the europiean settelers cause they tended to buy the land from the indians

        “Rather than seeing Indians simply as victims, he makes clear their active agency in shaping relationships with whites. They sometimes played whites off against one another, and they learned to take full advantage of the real estate market. By the 1760s, according to one colonial land dealer, the Indians had ‘grown so cunning and tenacious of their property that in short it is very difficult to get land from them without paying too much for it.’” http://www.ericfoner.com/reviews/020906lrb.html

        As with most history there is a LOT more to the detail than we can see from here.

        Meanwhile GALT conveniently ignores the rest of the meaning of “private property” and the inherent right of possession.

      • http://davidsfloors.com Granpa David

        Galt. Yes the Indians’ land was taken , and the Romans took a lot of land, and we took a lot from the Neanderthals. What does that have to do with 2012? [comment has been edited]

      • Ladyhawke

        If you read Of Plymouth Plantation by William Bradford, you will find out why there was stealing. It was not from the other believers, but the non-believers that they had living among them. After reading Governor Bradford’s journal, which is translated to more modern English, I was amazed that anyone survived through the years. Not just at Plymouth (Plimouth), but also at Massachusetts Bay and the Virginia Colonies.
        Even after they gave plots to the individual families, there was still common stores of supplies for many things and a portion of what everyone grew was put into storage.
        By the way, all the colonies had to deal with a hurricane one year which wiped out many homes and storehouses of food and in 1638 was a large earthquake.

      • Chester

        Gentlemen, a TRUE free market quite often ends up with most necessities being controlled by either a monopoly, or, at best, an oligopoly. In other words, those who can steal the fastest will own everything in sight, while the rest are forced to work at starvation wages, or as much below that as the labor pool will support. Imagine, no unions to force employers to meet work standards, supply decent working conditions, or even allow any time off. In fact, nothing to stop the employer from owning everything but the worker’s body, and quite possibly essentially controlling that by rules on who is allowed to associate with whom, We have had totally UNREGULATED free enterprise in this country in the past, and that is where it has gone EVERY time.

      • GALT

        Well Vicki I do admire your “spunk”………in fact you may be one of the more useful people
        here in that if nothing else you get to the point……fearlessly, and that is way more utilitarian than the “intellectual cowards” that usually respond to me.

        So for both your points…..

        On the meaning of the words, you do produce the expected values for the two variables in play…..ability and need….and you chose the programmed result, assuming both maximum
        ability in exchange for full filling minimum need.

        You have described the goals of the capitalist employer to perfection. ( your inclusion of the term slavery muddles the issue )…..for the ideal capitalist condition is debt peonage, and you have that down to a tee.

        One can also claim that those of greater ability, also have greater need…..this is the illusion and promise of capitalism and the expected RESULT of “communism”……and the difference exists in the expectations and “goals” of each system……..

        So the next step is……….do you understand the distinctions that have just been made?

        Why did I take the maximum interpretation…….greater ability = greater need and designate one as an “illusion and promise” and the other as an “expected result”
        for what most would agree are economic approaches that are diametrically opposed?

        Keeping in mind that both promise maximum benefit for all concerned?

        As for the stealing of land from the “original owners”……the only purchase I am aware
        of is the claimed purchase of Manhattan for $24. worth of beads and trinkets……
        which is still irritating Donald Trump……..

        The truth of the matter ( given the stupidity of THE DEAL ) is that, the buyers were scammed………as in “they all look alike”…….so it was good score for those that
        pulled it off………but it provided legitimacy……. and “might made it right”…..

        The tale of Squanto covers what happened in New England…..when he got back
        from his “royal token celebrity tour” in Europe, there weren’t any native americans
        for hundreds of miles…….and they hadn’t migrated, they were DEAD!

        So, again I’m from MO…….show me what you got?

      • GALT

        Well Granpa…….I was pretty much clear…….so either re-read what you did not get
        the first time……or ask for help…….maybe Bob will help you……?

      • Deerinwater

        GALT says:

        Well Vicki I do admire your “spunk”………in fact you may be one of the more useful people
        here in that if nothing else you get to the point……fearlessly, and that is way more utilitarian than the “intellectual cowards” that usually respond to me.”

        I’ve developed a respectful fondness for Vicki myself over these last few months. A strong mind with a keen eye for detail.

        As far as these early pioneers, the first to arrive were babe’s in the woods and not prepared for the hardships that awaited them, not knowing completely what they would be and just how hard one must work to sustain themselves. How cold it would be, how long it would last, ~ how to hunt, fish, gather and plant. ~ Not sure of the seasons, of soil or how to properly dress. What was available, what was not. How to care for the sick and tend to injuries, etc.

        Lock & Key was necessary after it all started going bad. That is the problem associated with “abundance” ~ we all squander ~ while some more so then others ~ the ones that squandered the least like to blame those that squandered the most which makes them only half right. Self discipline is not equally shared by all men , it must be “placed upon them”.

        A vertical learning curve for anyone. To endure such an adventure require unified efforts and strong leadership and a lot of trial and error. I doubt if they had either or any.

        Hungry people will do anything! You can’t reason with empty bellies. But you can work to prevent bellies from being empty to begin with.

        Today’s GOP seem to believe high walls, gated communities and security cameras is the answer. I say high walls only buys them time.

        The hungry will go though these gated communities like Grant with through Richmond.

    • Ron Bedell

      Yes. That is exactly what happened. You nailed it Chip. And I like the way you led into this article about the college students. Great job!

    • http://yahoo Charles Arthur Williams

      If you take this guy’s theory to heart, I question if you can call yourself Christian ? The community he describes isn’t communism its Biblical ! Read the first 6 Chapters of the book of ACTS ! Everyone was told to bring all they had to the storehouse. When one couple chose to keep a portion of the money, they received from the sale of their house, they were immediately struck down when they lied to the Disciples !

      One other point is, in Paul’s Letter’s was that God blessed us with Gift’s that were to benefit all !

      I think I’ll follow Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit, rather than a man !

      Remember Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil !

      • Buster the Anatolian

        “When one couple chose to keep a portion of the money, they received from the sale of their house, they were immediately struck down when they lied to the Disciples !”

        Ah but they were NOT struck down for keeping a portion of the sale proceeds for themselves they were struck down for lying about it.

    • Old Henry

      Here is a radio interview with David Bradford, 13th generation descendant of William. It runs about one hour and is quite interesting.

    • Lois

      There is an agenda by some ungodly people…to make people dependent, to make them slaves. The serpent seed want a one world order of control. Unfortunately, the serpent seed, the enemy within this nation has infiltrated all our institutions. They’ve interwoven, intermingled, intermarried. God warned us of this.

      The white European settlers DID NOT STEAL from the indian. You could also ask, who did the indian steal from? The white European is the one that created/founded this U.S. There were only 350 thousand indians when the white settlers came. The city I live in has about 350 thousand people. There was a vast amount of land open. My great grandmother was 100% Cherokee, and I say the white did not steal from the indian. The settlers did not steal anything. I feel NO guilt.

      As a nation we must turn away from political correctness, and turn back to God’s Word, laws. If our nation had not opened our gates to heathen peoples we have nothing in common, we would not be having the problems we are today. God warned us. The enemy within use diversions. The enemy within, the serpent seed uses debt to destroy countries. Multi-culturalism is being used as a weapon. Our government is loaded with socialist/communists.

      Read of the Kenites, the serpent seed. (also Utube videos)
      Read The Parable of the Fig Tree. (also Utube videos)
      Study the Bible.. – study with the Shepherd’s Chapel on TV or UTube videos

    • Myron J. Poltroonian

      (This is addressed to “Galt” via you only because there’s no direct link [that I can see] to respond to him directly]: My Dear “Galt”, You noted, with apparent smug satisfaction, that, and I quote: “Since you all claim to be “moral” and do not believe in “theft”, I expect that you will be packing your bags and going back to where ever it is you came from……because ALL of the land in this hemisphere was “stolen” from it’s rightful owners…….. .” Very well and good; since I am a direct, lineal descendant of “Kennewick Man”, I expect all of the Asian Invaders and their decedents to go back to Asia, where they came from.

    • Dano

      Pilgrams actually ran out of wheat and barleys for beer making. So they ended their exploration short to find wheats to make more beer. Maybe it was the beer, not the socialism.

  • Jeremy Leochner

    I would point out to Mr. Wood that policies involving economic resources are some what different then the system which helps determine and assign grades. There is slightly less effort involved to get an A in a high school or college history or english or even math and science class then there is in building and running a successful business. And requiring people to provide to help the community is not robbing them of the fruits of their labor. There is a social contract that comes with living in a community. Whether we are directly affected or not. For example I have never called the fire department to my house. However there are numerous wild fires near where I live and several times the fires have come close enough to warrant possible evacuation warnings. To what do I owe the fires being prevented from coming near my home, the fire department. I have never called the police to my home yet there have been crimes in my city and once or twice rather violent crimes. To what do I owe the prevention of further crimes-the police. So I derive benefit from government organizations and services even though I myself have never called them to specifically protect me. I am providing resources for services that I do not personally call for. And I am deriving benefit despite not personally calling for the service. In the community being served I am served as an individual. And it does not end there. When I use public transportation or public roads and freeways and bridges. When I go to public school or go to a public library. When I honor the troops for protecting our country. When my state needs support for disaster relief it can count on government support. And how can I know which restaurants are the safest to eat at. All these come form government whether state, local or federal. And I am not alone in making use of these resources. All Americans in one form or another make use of tax payer dollars. In other words they are making use of the fruits of other peoples labor. Pooling and sharing resources does not equal communism. We are a society and we all have a weight to pull. It is not a system where in all that matters is pulling your own weight and thus keeping all the fruits of your labor. We all share the burden and we all share the responsibility. Its not communism but we do live in a community. I admit they sound very much alike but that’s just our words. There is a difference between punishing success and bearing responsibility. In the case of your metaphor many of the students who get As and Bs are not simply students getting grades. I am using your metaphor in the context of our economy. In this case the students who are getting As and Bs are often the ones teaching the students who get Ds and Fs. The students who are getting higher grades are the “job creators”. Along with that they are also the job destroyers because they either through personal financial mistakes or through the necessity of economic circumstances can fire someone as easily as they can hire. Being a job creator does not automatically make someone a snob who deserves to be punished with higher taxes but neither does it make them captains of free enterprise who do not deserve to have the fruits of their labor taken away. Its not simple black and white good guy bad guy. There are irresponsible “job creators” and there are government services that do not do the job they are supposed too. My point is government is not evil in and of itself. And pooling resources and sharing is not in and of itself evil either. Competition is necessary and inevitable. But we are human beings and are just as capable of succeeding through cooperation as we are through competition. I have always believed that Communism is extreme and goes to far down the path of equality. However I believe that pure Capitalism is going to far down the path of liberty. We have to remember the words of the Declaration “All men are created equal”. The self evident truth appears before any mention of any particular rights. I am not saying individual rights do not matter. But what I am saying is equality is a self evident truth hat applies to all people. Such an ideal could just as easily be applied by Mr. Crystals metaphor. I could just as easily tell a group of students that because they are all created equal they must all get the same grade regardless of work. That is a ludicrous idea that no one would support. But that’s the point. No one would support that idea just as no one is supporting taking away from the hard working to give to the not hard working. People are supporting equality not communism. When you take any idea to absurd extremes it always comes out wrong. But the ideals themselves are not bad. Government pooling resources so as to better manage issues and provide essential services is not a bad thing. If taken to the extreme it will turn out bad. However my issue with Mr. Wood is that he speaks of no particular issue of today. He just mentions how he was sent to teach conservative principles to students. And one of those principles is that the fruits of ones labor should not be taken and given to another. The problem is that is not a conservative principle, its a universal principle. All people oppose taking from some to give to others. The problem is we are required to share in order to survive and thrive. No one likes to pay taxes and no one likes it when tax dollars are not spent on them or are spent on something they disagree with. Its ironic that so often when it is a service that people disagree with they decry it as socialism or government thievery. Yet when it is something like roads and bridges that everyone uses it is explained away as being from local or state government or that its not a big expense or that its something they themselves use. The point is it does not appear to be communism that is opposed. Rather its misuse of tax money or misuse of government that is the problem. I am on board for tackling specific issues and trying to clean up and improve government and the tax code. What I am not for is painting the tax code as nothing more then stealing from the rich to give to the poor. And I am not on board for discussing the folly of the Pilgrims settlement plan as though it has some bearing on today. Apparently the Pilgrims taught us the valuable lesson of what to stay away from. Because our system is nothing like the Pilgrims and it never will be. Because with respect to Mr. Wood I see no purpose in discussing the folly of a system that ours bears no resemblance too. Because to me it comes across as a subtle suggestion that our system is like that and that Mr. Wood is pointing out that that system is doomed to fail. That seems rather cynical to me. I say this because Mr. Woods article appears to be saying that. The reason is he is connecting his discussion about the failure of collectivism and the virtue of competition to a holiday that is based on sharing food and sitting down as equals at the table. The often called “First Thanksgiving” was a community event where everyone brought food to share with everyone else. That sounds just like Communism and yet its how one of our countries most beloved holidays got its inspiration. So I find it rather cynical to connect this day of sharing and loving to a debate about the failure of sharing and the glory of keeping for oneself.

    • Kinetic1

      Jeremy,
      I know it’s not your first time, but welcome to the world of Personal Liberty. I believe you will soon read that the point has something to do with the difference between being forced to share your food and sharing it voluntarily.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I know Kinetic. Thank you. I guess my issue is its not as simple as being forced to share your food. I am technically forced to obey the law because if I do not I suffer legal consequences. I am forced to not murder someone because if I do not I will be arrested and imprisoned and depending on the state and the nature of the murder I could lose my own life. The basic structure of tax laws are little different from any law or any rule. Its the same principle of “forcing” someone to be moral or just to their fellow human beings. And it does bear repeating that we are all eating something from the table. We are all eating something that some one else brought. We all therefore have to bring something. Call it forcing if you will but so far as I can tell it is simple courtesy or in the sense of a society responsibility.

      • Walter & Renee Agard

        Both have the same meaning Kinetic1

      • eddie47d

        Jeremy’s comments were far more relevant and coherent than the authors who posted pretty much the same article last year. I don’t know of any school who gives out A’s and B’s or even C’s just for the fun of it. There may be an occasional teacher who will give a passing grade just to pass a student to get him out of his class or maybe for putting out a good effort.Then there is this ridiculous Marxist/Communist comparison when Marx’s philosophy was 2 Centuries ahead.Community sharing doesn’t have to be equated with communism and shouldn’t be yet here we have it.

      • DaveH

        Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “I am forced to not murder someone because if I do not I will be arrested and imprisoned and depending on the state and the nature of the murder I could lose my own life”.
        What does that have to do with Socialism?

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Agards, why should sharing be by force? All it means that you are not good at being thieves so you hire and not by your own money others to do your stealing by force or by law. Hello, you are still thieves no matter how high sounding the language.

      • TML

        Jeremy Leochner says “I am technically forced to obey the law because if I do not I suffer legal consequences. I am forced to not murder someone because if I do not I will be arrested and imprisoned and depending on the state and the nature of the murder I could lose my own life. The basic structure of tax laws are little different from any law or any rule. Its the same principle of “forcing” someone to be moral or just to their fellow human beings. And it does bear repeating that we are all eating something from the table. We are all eating something that some one else brought. We all therefore have to bring something. Call it forcing if you will but so far as I can tell it is simple courtesy or in the sense of a society responsibility.“

        Being ‘forced’ to obey criminal laws as they concern the physical injury of others is only comparable to tax laws in that forced taxation is legalized stealing to those who do not voluntarily wish to give what they have earned. So, on the one hand you advocate the following of laws that restrain men from physically injuring one another, and on the other you advocate the following the laws that ‘legalize’ men financially injuring one another. It is not the same principle of forcing someone to be moral when the act of force – in this case stealing the bread they have earned in order to provide community with what you personally believe they need or to be charitable – is immoral. You’re talking about the difference between restraining men from doing evil, and allowing men to do evil under the pretense of thinking you know what’s best for others. You cannot force someone to be courteous or virtuous when their actions, or lack thereof, do not injure others directly either physically or financially without forfeiting such virtue yourself.

        I’m sure most of us voluntarily would agree to taxation which funds local law enforcement and fire services and other public property and services beneficial to all, to a reasonable degree. But “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors (or for products and services he does not want or need) is sinful and tyrannical.”

        “To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”

        “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”

        “The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”

        “A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.”

      • TML

        Eddie “Community sharing doesn’t have to be equated with communism and shouldn’t be yet here we have it.”

        Indeed, but the Robin Hood philosophy across the board, without voluntary consent, is the essence of communism. It is consent that makes the difference. And if you take from the farmer his whole crop and give him a ration thereof for his hard work, you won’t have his consent very long if you ever had it in the first place.

      • eddie47d

        We have Robin Hood in reverse in todays America TML. The Corporates,Banksters and Wall Street hooligans manipulate the markets to their advantage and we all have to use their services at some point in our lives. So they win and the government is too weak or too involved with them to correct the immense problems. I may belong to a Credit Union but it’s hard to evade the clutches of the Banksters on every financial issue.

      • Vigilant

        TML, we’ve passionately disagreed in a few areas, but I say “kudos” to you for those two postings.

      • Vigilant

        The arguments concerning forced vs. voluntary sharing are relative to the very heart of the principles upon which our Republic was founded.

        Of all the obligations of civil government, Locke considered the right to private property the highest. It is known that Jefferson, when borrowing Locke’s words, used “life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” in lieu of “life, liberty and property” solely because he didn’t wish the slaveholders to claim “property” rights over slaves.

        Notwithstanding the above, those who have an understanding of the Constitution recognize that the natural right to acquire and dispose of property is, or should be, inviolable. Madison said that government’s first object is “the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property.”

        This principle is so universal under Natural Law that even the secular humanists honor it. “The right to private property is a human right without which other rights are nugatory.” (A Secular Humanist Declaration, 1980).

        It follows that forced appropriation or private property, beyond the limited “social contract” provisions of the Constitution, is not only unconstitutional but violates the very basis of our freedoms. The Founders never intended or wrote a governing document that was socialist in nature, regardless of the socialist inroads created by poorly conceived laws and regulations.

        The Constitution, as amended, guarantees equal opportunity. The farthest thing from the minds of the Founders was to craft a document that would guarantee equal outcomes by redistributing wealth beyond the very limited powers accorded it.

      • Robert Smith

        “I believe you will soon read that the point has something to do with the difference between being forced to share your food and sharing it voluntarily.”

        It isn’t voluntary for roads, police, fire, and all the rest of our infrastructure. There is a tax rate and all should comply.

        BTW, entrapranures STILL DIDN’T build the infrastructure. Yet the extreme right wants to keep that dumb lie going. We all built it.

        Rob

      • Sol of Texas

        PRODUCTION taxes (payroll/income, capital gains, inheritance, …) are inherently evil because they “punish” production. If the taxes were based upon CONSUMPTION , taxes would be proportionate to consumption (controllable by individuals) and no one could escape paying them to some extent for the “public good”.

      • Jana

        Jeremy,
        You are being FORCED to obey the law? This makes you sound like some weirdo with psychological problems. Better let his neighbors know he has such thoughts.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “It isn’t voluntary for roads, police, fire, and all the rest of our infrastructure”.
        But it could be and should be in a more Moral Society. I don’t expect Robert to understand that as he has become all too accustomed to helping himself to other peoples’ money. But those people who have truly open minds should read this:
        http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto.pdf

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Dave what it has to do with socialism is often people refuse to support the idea of socialism because it is mandatory altruism and that they are forced to give. What I was trying to say is that I believe that argument is illogical. Because the same logic that says paying taxes is bad because you are force to do so could just as easily be used to say laws against murder are bad because you are forced to not murder. I was trying to point out that just because you are forced to do or not do something does make you a victim of oppression.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        TML and Vigilant, it appears that some people posting here think that Communism is created in a vacuum and it just pops on the scene instead of it being progressive in nature.

        Here is an excerpt from a book, Iron Curtain by Anne Applebaum and this is from the introduction page and it starts, “Among many other things, the year 1945 marked one of the most extraordinary population movements in European history. All across the continent, hundreds of thousands of people were returning from Soviet exile, from forced labor in Germany, from concentration camps and prisoner-of-war camps, from hiding places and refuges of all kinds. The roads, footpaths, tracks, and trains were crammed full of ragged, hungry, dirty people.
        The scenes in the railway stations were particularly horrific to behold. Starving mothers, sick children, and sometimes entire families camped on filthy cement floors for days on end, waiting for the next available train.Epidmics and starvtion threatened to engulf them. But in the city of Lodz, in central Poland, a group of women determined to prevent further tragedy. Led by former members of the Liga Kobiet, the Polish Women’s League, a charitable and patriotic organization founded in 1913, the women got ot work. At the Lodz train station, Women’s League activists set up shelter for women and children, supplying them with hot food, medicine, and blankets, as well as volunteers and nurses.
        In the spring 1945, the motives of these women were the sames as they would have been in 1925 or 1935. They were witnesses to a social emergency. They organized themselves in order to help. No one asked them, ordered them, or paid them to do so. Janina Suska-Janakowska, in her late eighties when I met her,told me that she remembered these early efforts in Lodz as completely apolitical: “No one received money for charitable work…everyone who had a free minute helped.” Beyond aiding desperate travelers, the Lodz Women’s League, in its initial incarnation, had no political agenda.
        Five years passed. By 1950, the Polish Women’s League had become something very different. It had a Warsaw headquarters. It had centralized national governing body, which could and did dissolve local branches that failed to follow orders. It had a general secretary, Izolda Kowalska-Kiryluk, who described the league’s primary tasks not in charitable, patriotic terms but by using political, ideological language: “We must deepen our organizational work and mobilize a broad group of active women, educating and shaping them into conscious social activists. Every day we must raise the level of women’s social consciousness and join the grand assignment of the social reconstruction of People’s Poland into Socialist Poland.”
        ……..
        By 1950, in other words, The Polish Women’s League had effectively become the women’s section of the Polish communist party. In this capacity, the league encouraged women to follow the party’s line in matters of politics and international relations………Anyone who objected to any of this—anyone who refused, for example, to march in the May Day parades or attend the celebrations for Stalin’s birthday—could be kicked out of the Women’s League, and some were. others resigned. Those who remained were no longer volunteers but bureaucrats, working in the service of the state and the communist party.
        Five years had passed. In those five years, the Polish Women’s League and countless organizations like it had undergone a total transormation. What had happened? Who had caused the changes? Why did anyone go along with them? …….”

        Read the book for the answers.

        The answers some of us posters already know, the others will just have to learn the hard way while harming our nation and us.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Jana I apologize if I worried you. I assure you I do not view the laws that way. I obey the law against murder because I believe murder is wrong. At the same time I obey the law requiring taxes because I believe it is right. The reason I used murder was as an extreme example. I was making the point that any law has to be enforced. People often are angered over taxes because they required to pay it. They often compare it to legalized stealing. Yet they seem to have no moral objection to making use of tax dollars and at the same time they see nothing wrong with government telling them they cannot murder someone or steal from someone or lie in a court of law or any other law. What I am trying to point out is as far as I am concerned the logic that says taxes are stealing is the same logic that says laws against murder are tyranny because you can be punished if you disobey. If I do not pay my taxes I face legal consequences. If I murder someone I face legal consequences. Perhaps it is unfair to compare not paying taxes to murder. My point is it is unfair to compare taxes to stealing. They are not. Just because you have to pay taxes or just because taxes are used to pay for things you disagree with does not make you a victim or oppression or thievery. No one likes to pay for things they do not like. Sadly that is life. We cannot always get what we want. Does that mean we should bow and take it, of course not. But we need to keep our criticism in context and perspective. I often hear people talk about the government using money in a manner I disagree with. But then the people describing it lose me by decrying that the government takes and uses tax money at all. The problem with that is it is an extreme. Extremes never turn out right. And I do not believe anyone is seriously contending that the government should stop using tax money. I believe most people want government to be smaller and to use less money. That I can somewhat understand and depending on the individual programs discussed I might be for reducing government. However when broad generalizing statements about how government collecting tax money is no better then legalized stealing are used I feel put off and unable to make any sort of compromise. I believe we are all reasonable with reasonable demands. My concern is if we bring up these hyperbolic arguments about governmental communism or socialist hatred of success those legitimate concerns get tossed out the window and nothing gets done. Our country has serious problems and President Obama and his administration have made mistakes and immoral decisions that need to be considered. But when we get bogged down calling each other communists and socialists we lose sight of what is going on and President Obama whether you like him or not is able to just keep doing what he is doing with no one holding him accountable. And I do not think anyone wants that. So all I am asking for is for the problem to be kept in perspective. Paying taxes does not make you a victim of stealing because you are forced to pay it unless you are also willing to say laws against murder are tyranny because you are forced to obey them. Being forced to do something does not make you a victim. There are a lot of things I am forced to do or not do that I disagree with. But that is life. We need to keep our concerns in perspective or they will never get solved.

      • Jana

        Nadzieja,
        In other words this Polish League was infiltrated with Communists who eventually took over what was once a good thing.
        I think I will read that book. Thanks

      • Jana

        Jeremy,
        You stated “My concern is if we bring up these hyperbolic arguments about governmental communism or socialist hatred of success those legitimate concerns get tossed out the window and nothing gets done. Our country has serious problems and President Obama and his administration have made mistakes and immoral decisions that need to be considered. But when we get bogged down calling each other communists and socialists we lose sight of what is going on and President Obama whether you like him or not is able to just keep doing what he is doing with no one holding him accountable. And I do not think anyone wants that. So all I am asking for is for the problem to be kept in perspective: ——

        There is nothing hyperbolic here. Maybe you are too young and immature to comprehend what is really going on here. Our country has made a dramatic turn TOWARD Socialism. For those of us who have lived true freedom we know what we are losing.

      • TML

        Jeremy Leochner says “…often people refuse to support the idea of socialism because it is mandatory altruism and that they are forced to give. What I was trying to say is that I believe that argument is illogical. Because the same logic that says paying taxes is bad because you are force to do so could just as easily be used to say laws against murder are bad because you are forced to not murder. I was trying to point out that just because you are forced to do or not do something does make you a victim of oppression.”

        No; mandatory altruism is a logical contradiction, or mutually exclusive reasoning (as I tried pointing out). The same logic could not be used as argument against laws which restrain men from physically or financially injuring one another, (i.e. murder, theft, etc.). “…rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.”

        Mandatory altruism promotes theft under the auspices of humanitarianism by forcing an individual to provide funds for what you believe should be an unselfish concern for, or devotion to, the welfare of others. The altruism being forced on the individual is hypocritical to the virtue used to justify it. Honestly what you’re talking about seems to be the same logic whereby some theist’s base reasoning to justify legislation of their morality, even though it doesn’t harm anyone physically or financially.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        TML you wrote that “rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.”. My focus is on the limits drawn around us. I believe that the government taking tax money to pay for services like wekfare and medicare and medicaid falls with in those rightful limits. For all those services in my view advance and help people in their equal rights to life and the pursuit of happiness. And their are numerous other things that government pays for that I believe advance and protect our basic equal rights. I believe if government uses tax money correctly then taking tax money falls within the “limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.”

      • Jeremy Leochner

        My apologies, I meant to say welfare not wekfare. I really need to learn to spell check.

      • TML

        Jeremy Leochner says “TML you wrote that “rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.”. My focus is on the limits drawn around us. I believe that the government taking tax money to pay for services like wekfare and medicare and medicaid falls with in those rightful limits. For all those services in my view advance and help people in their equal rights to life and the pursuit of happiness. And their are numerous other things that government pays for that I believe advance and protect our basic equal rights. I believe if government uses tax money correctly then taking tax money falls within the “limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.””

        The context of the statement is about action, not inaction. “The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others.”. Rightful liberty has nothing to do with being forced to provide what others believe they are entitled to, and presumes it possible to rightfully judge when someone else has earned ‘too much’, thereby disregarding the right of personal responsibility to think the government could provide better than a person or family can for themselves. While government is there to protect liberty, it is not there to be your nanny. There is no ‘right’ of being taken care of by your community. That is your personal responsibility. Forcing others to provide this violates their equal right (not the other way around), and the first principle of liberty; voluntary association (consent by the governed).

        Your position makes the error of assumption that welfare services could not be offered if it wasn’t voluntary and allowed anyone to opt out (since paying the tax could be considered consent if not forced under the threat of imprisonment if you don’t pay), or that such services wouldn’t exist by those virtuous enough to operate, and/or give to, charities. Services like health care may even be better served without the financial interference by government, since government generally isn’t made up of people competent in running a medical operation. As I mentioned before; law enforcement, fire services, roads, etc… are all things that each of us could voluntarily agree to that equally benefits others, as well as ourselves.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        TML. I understand the important of voluntary charity. The issue I have is when you mention being forced “to provide what others believe they are entitled to”. The problem is the elderly and working poor and veterans and other groups given help by government services are entitled to that. Its not that they say they are, they just are. We as a society if we are to be a just one must care for the weakest or the least able or the most vulnerable amongst us. Sometimes that may include having the government “provide better than a person or family can for themselves”. Those who are “poor” are not so because they do not work hard enough or choose to be so.Those who are elderly do not choose to be unable to work. The disabled do not choose to be the way they are. These groups are what they are and they deserve and need help however we as a society can. As I said it is a responsibility not charity. As a society we must do what we can. Charity is voluntary but as a society we must act. Its not a matter of choosing to pay its a matter of choosing how much to pay and how to pay it. But we have to pay something. That is my point. And I will point out no one has decided to “judge when someone else has earned ‘too much’,”. The idea of having those with more pay more is not about them making too much. Its based on the idea that since these people have benefited greatly from the system that they should give slightly more back and that they with their greater resources should be able to better whether the slight increase then someone with less. And no one not even me have ever said “okay the rich are taxed everything is solved”. I have never stopped at just raise some taxes. I want spending cuts and I want to trim the fat. I want to clean out the government and get better people in charge. No one is putting everything on higher wage earners. I just believe right now not enough is placed on them and I believe they can handle a slight increase.

        • Jack Worthington

          How did these people become “entitled?” The consitution says no grants of titles. The intent of the framers was not to repeat the mistakes of the past. The experiment in commie/socialism in Plymouth Colony was one of the errors the framers wanted to prevent or avoid so as to protect themselves from catastrophe. Your “logic” is not swaying.

      • Jana

        Wow Jeremy,
        Now you are sounding like a Conservative. We all feel and know the need to pay taxes.
        We all know it is mandatory for us to help those who are wounded or sick or not able to take care of themselves.
        Some who are poor can fend for themselves but they choose not to because they will have to forfeit their benefits, ie: food stamps, public housing, free meds etc. We have created a goup of people that have no higher aspirations than getting on the welfare bank roll. Plus, they are now down in Mexico teaching them how to claim welfare and still live in Mexico. This is in the news here in Texas.
        Our schools in Texas are in trouble because we don’t have enough money per child to spend, yet we have so many illegal children that come over here to go to our schools and get free breakfast, lunch and supper and, by the way, they get welfare too, as well as their parents.
        The powers that be are going to the colonias in Texas showing them how to get on welfare. This is what we are concerned about. By the way, you being young will foot most of that bill.
        Your point that no one has decided to “judge when somone who has earned too much” has been mentioned by some of the Democrat congress as well as a slip by Obama. Heard that one with my own ears.
        You say,”
        . I have never stopped at just raise some taxes. I want spending cuts and I want to trim the fat. I want to clean out the government and get better people in charge. ”
        Now you are speacking conservative speak.
        How do we do that? It is called negotiation, which so far the Dems have not been willing to do.

      • Kinetic1

        DaveH,
        An interesting read. Now, let’s explore reality vs philosophy. Mr. Rothbard states on page 251
        “Again, homeowners will of course have a direct interest in seeing that their block is safe, while landlords will try to attract tenants by supplying safe streets.”

        I currently rent a home on a private street. Upkeep is the responsibility of the property owners, several of which live on our street. They have, so far been unwilling to agree on the division of responsibility. The owner of the first house believes that everyone uses “his” section of the road, so all should contribute to that section, but he never drives beyond his property line so that is where his responsibility ends. Further down the road they feel that everyone is responsible for the whole road, but that those who drive their work trucks home should shoulder a larger burden. As a result, our road is so bad that the garbage company refuses to drive more than 100 feet down the road and demands that all the trash cans (35 to 45) be lined up in front of my house each week. The Fire Department has warned those at the end that they may not be able to help them and the postman has threatened to follow the garbage companies lead. And the landlord’s concern for his tenants? Well, the house on the end is rented out to a Hispanic family that would rather not be noticed, so they’ll never complain. We, on the other hand are looking for a new place, but the housing crash has caused rents to skyrocket and supply to diminish, so we have little to no bargaining power.

        So tell me again about the undeniable wisdom of the Mises institute.

      • TML

        Jeremy Leochner
        While veteran’s assistance makes sense for obvious reasons, I disagree that the elderly and working poor have inherent entitlements from federal government. Of course, they do now in the sense of social security or unemployment if they have paid into these programs… but are “entitled” to no more, and no less, than what they have themselves contributed. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there are legitimate cases in which people virtuously need help though no fault of their own, and I’m not saying “throw grandma off a cliff”. However, there are many more “poor” who are so because they do not want to work, and choose to be so (I’m reminded of Crackhead Larry, 53, that roamed the highways collecting cans for recycling to supply his habit, and still collected food stamps and other entitlements – he was capable to work and better his life, but chose not to). There are elderly who are capable, but choose not to work (There’s a 70 year old woman running the convenient store up the road from me). But not only that, there are many more whom have squandered their lives and fortunes away only to claim “entitlement” upon the rest of the hard working people who have tried to live their lives right. I personally know a self-proclaimed liberal couple, who are now elderly, and they are huge on government “entitlements”, yet this couple was once very rich and squandered their entire fortune on methamphetine – are they truly entitled under the virtue you espouse to “care for the weakest or the least able or the most vulnerable amongst us.”? Whether poor, elderly, or disabled; this is generally where family and/or local community responsibility should step in and provide, and that is what we should promote… not federal government entitlement. That is where the “socialist” ideas, or true responsibility, should be promoted most – family and local community. Of course there are those without family or a virtuous community, and those who are genuinely in need of help, and I believe that true number to be well within the capability of charities. Which is not even to say that government programs, whether state or federal, could not exist, but rather, that such programs should allow people to opt out and provide better qualification standards that weed out those who simply seek to be a parasite on the labor of the industrious, for they too steal from those genuinely in need.

      • DaveH

        Jana says — “We all feel and know the need to pay taxes.
        We all know it is mandatory for us to help those who are wounded or sick or not able to take care of themselves”.
        No, Jana, we don’t ALL know the need to pay taxes. We don’t ALL know it is mandatory for us to help the misfortunate.
        It is indeed noble to do the latter, and there is likely nobody on this forum who is more generous than me, but NOBODY has a right to ride on somebody else’s unwilling shoulders. That is Forced Servitude no matter how anybody tries to package it.
        But the reality is that those concepts are used by Leaders and their Politically Connected pals to manipulate people to sit apathetically by while they Grow Government ever larger and impoverish our country ever more. The reality is that when they take money from the Private Sector, they take money from Productive hands and put it into Non-Productive hands. That results in weaker economies and more people suffering, not less. So, even casting aside the immorality of Enslaving unwilling people and stealing other peoples’ money, the Reality of Big Government is More suffering, NOT Less.

      • DaveH

        Kinetic says — “So tell me again about the undeniable wisdom of the Mises institute”.
        Sounds to me, Kinetic, like you live in an area populated by Liberal Progressives.
        Both neighborhoods that I have lived in were well-maintained and the people were considerate of one another. I currently live in an association area which has very low yearly fees (about $200), and yet the roads (privately owned) are impeccably maintained. Of course, most of the residents are Republican.
        At any rate your anecdotal evidence proves absolutely nothing about the “undeniable wisdom of the Mises Institute”. It only proves that you have no concept of logical proof.
        You’re right that you should move but I don’t quite understand your beef about rents because, like any Free Market item, rental houses are going to be priced based on their desirability. If your rents are low where you are, it is probably because your neighborhood is relatively undesirable. You pay for what you get. And why not? Those who are willing to work harder can pay for more desirable areas in which to live — As it should be.

      • Cherio

        TML is exactly right about the farmers hard work. I don’t know if liberal radicals will ever get it? Everyone equally poor? Didn’t the Chief say 36K was enough money we didn’t need more? Isn’t that force, stealing the American Dream?
        And when it comes to greed, theft, unfair practices, gov’t is always king.

        Could the argument be what happened to the native Americans is the same that Libs want today, wealth redistribution? If liberals don’t believe in private property then natives had no choice but to share their land. Isn’t that what you guys preach? They had no right to own the land right? Seems a progressive liberal stole their land? Just wondering…..

      • Kinetic1

        DaveH,
        You may have noticed that I generally do not resort to name calling in my posts. So many posts on this site show the knee jerk reactions of people frustrated by what they have read, and so the childish names fly. There are, however those occasions when a poster displays such traits as to earn such a response, and today that person is you. Dave H., you are an A$$. Your assumptions that anything that does not work must be the result of Liberals speaks volumes about your narrow mindedness. Were you to have asked rather than make assumptions, you would know that many of the people in my neighborhood are conservatives. The ex-Marine ex-Policeman across the street, the electrician who owns his own business, and several of the landlords are all conservatives.

        “I currently live in an association area”
        Well good for you. You have joined an association which requires that you pay an annual fee in return for which they provide the maintenance required. But what I have here is the very essence of what was written in your article.
        “Since landowners always prefer higher to lower market values for their property, there is a built-in incentive to provide efficient, well-paved, and safe streets.”
        But you see, this assumption, while reasonable sounding is not an absolute! I have here an example (and I can give you MANY others) of landlords who do not “always prefer higher to lower market values for their property”. They have weighed their options and have determined that the financial return does not justify the cost of maintaining the road. Much like Chip’s story of the first settlers, greed and self interest trumped concern for others.

        Finally, you ask about my ” beef about rents because, like any Free Market item, rental houses are going to be priced based on their desirability.” My “beef” has to do with a banking industry that all but destroyed the housing market. My “beef” is how, after being bailed out with our tax dollars the banks have tightened up mortgages. My “beef” is the glut of wealthy investors buying up properties and jacking up the rents to cover their payments. “Free Market”?
        “Those who are willing to work harder can pay for more desirable areas in which to live..” And just how much “harder” do you expect us to work? We’re already living in one of the better areas, where crime is low and schools are good. Our rent here is almost twice our house payment in another region. Is 12 hours a day too little? Should we sell our kids and both work 18 hours a day just to pay rent in one of the “more desirable areas”?

        DaveH, you and the Mises Institute always seem to have ALL the answers to our problems, but time and again reality gets in the way. Why is that?

        • Jeff

          I personally think Creepy Bastard is a far more apt nickname.

      • DaveH

        Kinetic says — “You may have noticed that I generally do not resort to name calling in my posts”.
        Then shortly after he says — “Dave H., you are an A$$”.
        Did I call you a name, Kinetic? No. I just shined a light on your lack of logic. And as usual the Liberal Progressive must resort to name-calling.

        Kinetic says — “But you see, this assumption, while reasonable sounding is not an absolute!”.
        What did the very quote you posted say, Kinetic? It said — “Since landowners always prefer higher to lower market values for their property, there is a built-in incentive to provide efficient, well-paved, and safe streets”. Did you see an absolute there? Do you know what “incentive” means? In your zeal to prove Rothbard wrong you, as Liberal Progressives usually do, put words in his mouth. He said nothing about “always”, just that there was an incentive.

        Kinetic says — “They have weighed their options and have determined that the financial return does not justify the cost of maintaining the road”.
        And why shouldn’t they? Here you are whining about what you get for your rent, in other words considering your own interests, but at the same time apparently expecting the surrounding owners to do something other than serve their own interests.

        Kinetic says — “Much like Chip’s story of the first settlers, greed and self interest trumped concern for others”.
        And what exactly is it, Kinetic, that drives you to want to use Government to Force people to do things your way? It certainly isn’t selflessness.

        Kinetic says — “My “beef” has to do with a banking industry that all but destroyed the housing market”.
        Then why do you support a President who bails out those Bankers, Kinetic?

        Kinetic says — “My “beef” is the glut of wealthy investors buying up properties and jacking up the rents to cover their payments”.
        First you complain about the housing crash that drove up your rents, then you complain about the people buying up the houses (which lowers rents, because the larger the number of owned homes there are, the lower the rents will be). You can’t make up your mind, Kinetic. You want your cake and eat it too, like most Liberal Progressives.

        Kinetic says — “Our rent here is almost twice our house payment in another region”.
        What? Then why don’t you buy that house in that other region? Sounds to me, Kinetic, like you’re fabricating your story.

        Kinetic says — “DaveH, you and the Mises Institute always seem to have ALL the answers to our problems, but time and again reality gets in the way. Why is that?”.
        What reality, Kinetic? We’ve been doing things your Progressive way from over 100 years now. And you blame me and Mises? That’s a stretch.

      • Kinetic1

        DaveH,
        How nice of you to respond in such a way as to prove my point. You parse, distort and avoid context. From your position at the far right of the Libertarian philosophy (an opinion I arrived at based on your continued reliance to Mises) you opine that all that is wrong comes from my stance as a Liberal Progressive, though I am actually quite moderate.

        So, to respond;

        “What did the very quote you posted say, Kinetic? It said — “Since landowners always prefer higher to lower market values for their property, there is a built-in incentive to provide efficient, well-paved, and safe streets”. Did you see an absolute there?” Yes! Did you read the quote? ““Since landowners ALWAYS prefer”. Clearly that preference, if it does “always” exist is not enough of a concern for some.

        “Here you are whining about what you get for your rent, in other words considering your own interests, but at the same time apparently expecting the surrounding owners to do something other than serve their own interests.” We are talking about a community here. Yes, keeping the road in good condition is in my interest, but it is also in the best interest of everyone else on our street. Since the author was arguing that property owners would do a better job than the government this reality is of obvious concern.

        Well, time is short and your arguments are all transparent, so let’s wrap this up.

        “Kinetic says — “Our rent here is almost twice our house payment in another region”.
        What? Then why don’t you buy that house in that other region? Sounds to me, Kinetic, like you’re fabricating your story.” Notice that I said “our house payment” and not “A house payment.” We did buy that house, but had to move for work. The point is that work required moving to a more expensive area. Nothing made up. No lying or false accusations. I’ll leave that up to you.

        Twist and turn, cut and paste, the point remains the same. Your reference, Mr. Rothbard did his best to sell the idea that our streets, among other things would be better if they were the property of the home owners who depend on them. In your case, where there is an association that you agree to submit to in order to live in the neighborhood, it works. In mine, a more pure form of Libertarian ownership, it has failed.

    • DaveH

      Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “And requiring people to provide to help the community is not robbing them of the fruits of their labor”.
      It’s not? Because Jeremy says so? Please explain to us, Jeremy, why taking peoples’ property away is not “robbery”.

      • Robert Smith

        “Please explain to us, Jeremy, why taking peoples’ property away is not “robbery”.”

        It’s part of the social contract we call civilization. There are some things we must all work together on.

        Sadly there are those selfish folks, like yourself I imagine, who don’t want to contribute to the good of everyone. They don’t recognize that they don’t use the roads, need fire protection, or police.

        What a bunch of selfish people.

        Rob

        • Jeff

          “Please explain to us, Jeremy, why taking peoples’ property away is not “robbery”.”
          It’s part of the social contract we call civilization. There are some things we must all work together on.
          Sadly there are those selfish folks, like yourself I imagine, who don’t want to contribute to the good of everyone. They don’t recognize that they don’t use the roads, need fire protection, or police.
          What a bunch of selfish people.
          Rob”

          I frankly can’t believe anyone can take DaveH seriously at all. What he is proposing is no public sector at all. If taxation is theft, then all government is illegitimate. DaveH, of course, never needs anything and is a completely self made man. I think he watched a few too many Westerns growing up. He thinks he’s the Marlboro Man, but the Marlboro Man died of lung cancer.

      • JeffH

        Robert Smith, you really are a moron…progressives like you learned many centuries ago how to abuse the charity involved with “communal sharing”. It was much easier to steal or force others to share than actually working for it.

        Basically, liberal progressives like yourself try to portray themselves as being more compassionate with superior empathy for the downtrodden. What a load! Liberals prefer to buy their sense of compassion with other people’s money.

        Beyond that, most, if not all, liberal progressive policy positions are based on selfishness, narcissism, and egocentricity. The desire to have power over others, to force them to adopt your lifestyle, force them to live by your values, that is ultimate selfishness. That is progressive liberalism.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “It’s part of the social contract we call civilization. There are some things we must all work together on.
        Sadly there are those selfish folks, like yourself I imagine, who don’t want to contribute to the good of everyone. They don’t recognize that they don’t use the roads, need fire protection, or police.
        What a bunch of selfish people”.
        What a joke Liberal Progressives are. I suggest that people should not be forced to pay for services that they neither use or desire, and Robert calls that selfish. Yet he wants the rest of us to pay for things that HE wants. Only in the twisted minds of Liberal Progressives can such an act be called Selfless.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Because Dave we all take from the community. Dave every time you take a public road or bridge or use a public library you are taking “peoples’ property”. You are making use of the fruits of other people that were taken from them. Since you have no problem taking I hope you have no problem giving.

      • JeffH

        Jeremy says “Because Dave we all take from the community. Dave every time you take a public road or bridge or use a public library you are taking “peoples’ property”.” Wow!

        Non seqitur Jeremy…the highly flawed reasoning of a liberal progressive.
        Ever here of taxes Jeremy? Public roads, bridges and libraries were all funded by the taxpayers, that is state and federal government using force to extract monies from the people…using them doesn’t even come close to “taking peoples property”…by your way of thinking Jeremy, even though Dave is helping to pay for them, he would be stealing…that constitututes theft.

        Oh how the progressive mind can twist and turn the simplest of ideas.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Jeff I have heard of taxes. I was wondering if Dave has. Dave equated the government taking tax money to pay for things with stealing peoples property. I was trying to point out that Dave is still paying into that same system and that he benefits from it. I was pointing out that it appears Dave does not mind using government collected tax dollars but does not wish to pay anything into it. Or that Dave feels that because we are required to pay taxes that that automatically makes taxes evil. And yet he does not mind making use of things that taxes pay for. Seemed somewhat contradictory to me.

      • eddie47d

        Jeff H always thinks he knows it all about Progressive Liberalism. What boatload is he trying to sell us now? “selfishness and egocentricity” That could be said about alot of people including Conservatives and Libertarians. Narcissism? No one should be ashamed of their body whether fat or skinny or attractive. I suppose you are talking about the SF case since that is your area. I wouldn’t approve of public nudity except in authorized or designated areas but nudity is hardly a sin. If that was true we would never take a shower. LOL!

      • Robert Smith

        From JeffH: “The desire to have power over others, to force them to adopt your lifestyle, force them to live by your values, that is ultimate selfishness. That is progressive liberalism.”

        What a diaper load.

        The fact is that it’s the RIGHT wing that advocates controlling a woman’s reproductive decisions.

        It’s the RIGHT wing that dictates their religion be the law of the land.

        It’s the RIGHT wing that offers the ultimate “control” of let’em die if they don’t agree with me.

        How selfish.

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        DaveH proclaims: “I suggest that people should not be forced to pay for services that they neither use or desire, ”

        I don’t see the need for a standing army.

        I don’t see the need for forighn aid.

        I don’t see the need for corporate welfare.

        I don’t see the need for each and every dollar that goes to a kid when a parent dies should be so directed because the kid didn’t earn it.

        I don’t see the need police enforcement against pot.

        So, I shouldn’t pay for those accordingly, just as the extreme right wants to not pay for things it is opposed to.

        Rob

      • JeffH

        Rob, I beg to differ…I got it right the first time but I understand why you’re not comfortable with that…now take another look in your mirror.

      • DaveH

        Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “it appears Dave does not mind using government collected tax dollars but does not wish to pay anything into it”.
        Wow. A Liberal Progressive putting words in my mouth. How Novel.
        No, Jeremy, it appears that you have no problem using false premises to make your point.
        I do not want to use Government services that I haven’t paid for. I want to have a choice in the Free Market to buy those services which I actually desire and use. It’s called voluntary contract, Jeremy (aka Flashman). You know — Choice — something Liberal Progressives only recognize if it involves killing unborn babies.

      • DaveH

        Robert says:
        “I don’t see the need for a standing army”.
        “I don’t see the need for forighn aid”.
        “I don’t see the need for corporate welfare”.
        “I don’t see the need police enforcement against pot”.

        Me neither, Robert, none of those are Constitutional. So you’re becoming a Conservative now?

        Robert says — “I don’t see the need for each and every dollar that goes to a kid when a parent dies should be so directed because the kid didn’t earn it”.
        No, Robert, they didn’t earn it, but their Parents did, and if their Parents want their property to go to their kids, that is Their Business NOT Yours.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I apologize Dave. I should not have put words in your mouth. For the sake of an honest debate I want to ask you. Have you ever used a public road or bridge or public facility. Have you ever called the police or fire department. Do you believe in supporting any of the services or organizations that receive tax payer dollars.

      • DaveH

        Do you realize, Jeremy, that I paid for all those things — Whether I liked it or Not?
        Your questions have nothing to do with whether those things should be administered by the monopoly Force of Government, or by the voluntary choices in Free Markets.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        That’s the problem Dave. You criticize the tax system that you pay into. The purpose of my question is to find out if you in some ways benefit from the system that you pay into and possibly benefit from. Because if you pay into and benefit from it then its not always stealing other peoples money. It is not always big government taking from some to give to others. You cannot simply pay taxes only for what directly benefits you or only for things you agree with. Like I said there are things that taxes pay for that do not directly benefit me and there are things taxes pay for that I disagree with. That is why I oppose those individual things. When taxes are used for something I think taxes should not be used for I oppose the things I do not think taxes should be used for. I do not oppose taxes being used at all. Taxes benefit everyone and as annoying and painful as it is to pay them its part of living in a society. We can’t just live off of the fruits of our own labor and give nothing to help the community without society collapsing. And while this argument has been pushed numerous times I want to ask if anyone seriously believes that if given the choice of how much to pay in taxes people would pay any where near what they pay now. Dave if you had a choice of how much to pay or whether to pay at all and you found out some of it would be used to help someone else or more importantly that it was being used to pay for something you do not like would you pay the same or would you pay at all. The problem with people choosing whether or not to pay or how much to pay can go the opposite extreme of having the amount paid or payment be mandatory. No one is going to pay if they believe it will go to something they disagree with. The problem is everyone has something they disagree with. As such if everyone got to decide how much or whether to pay at all the revenues would be at the whims of the individual tax payers. The problem is our country has bills to pay and services that need to be provided. Services we all use in one form or at one time or another. Every now and then I have heard proposals by people from left and right about making some form of public service mandatory. I oppose such efforts because of the tax system. I see taxes as our own individual contribution to our communities and our country. It may be great or small but it is something. Is it annoying and a hassle like jury duty or going to the DMV of course it is. But whether we like it or not the DMV, Jury Duty and taxes serve a purpose. And its not like there are not options. Yes it would take a million years to fully understand and decipher our countries tax code. But hidden in that byzantine labyrinth are tax loopholes and deductions that all Americans have access too. So its not like government thugs come and say give us this amount of money. You have the capacity to claim reasons to pay less. So even though you have to pay something you do have control of how much you pay. Ask any American and I am guessing they will tell you every year come tax time they work a way to pay as little as possible.

      • JeffH

        Only eddie could come up with a comment so stupid and far away from any comment posted here today.

        eddies says “Narcissism? No one should be ashamed of their body whether fat or skinny or attractive. I suppose you are talking about the SF case since that is your area. I wouldn’t approve of public nudity except in authorized or designated areas but nudity is hardly a sin. If that was true we would never take a shower. LOL!

        eddie, you really have a serious problem with your mind, your imagination.

        I live 190 miles +- from San Francisco…pure conjecture on your part.

        Who’s the one talking about nudity here or even whether it is a sin or not? That would be you and your sick mind eddie.
        You need some serious help you inoramous.

        • Jeff

          I guess we should thank God the earthquakes have not brought Fresno and SF closer together. I’d hate to think of that wonderful city being polluted by proximity to your Nazi nonsense.

      • JeffH

        Jeff the childish troll…can I assume from your comment that you are in complete agreement with eddie’s above comment?

        I most certainly don’t have to assume that you are a childish troll…you’ve repeatedly proven that.

        • Jeff

          I guess in the Fourth Reich, a troll is anyone who doesn’t get aroused looking at swastikas and pictures of your Uncle Adolph.

      • eddie47d

        Your the one who brought up narcissism Jeff H. If you can’t handle such big words you shouldn’t be using them. Next time don’t let your ignorance shine so brightly!

    • DaveH

      Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “To what do I owe the fires being prevented from coming near my home, the fire department”.
      And? Does anybody think that you couldn’t have freely contracted with a Private Fire Department to accomplish the same protection, but without forcing other unwilling people to participate (which is just slavery, plain and simple)?
      Force — something Liberal Progressives thrive on.
      Choice — something Liberal Progressives disdain, unless it involves killing unborn babies.

      • Jeff

        CB:

        This is the kind of pedantic, idiotic, senseless, overthetop post that makes you who you are. You earned everything on your own and nobody’s entitled to a dime of your MONEY for anything. You never benefitted from any public investment in education, defense, roads, nothing. You were born in a log cabin and learned all your nonsense by candle light to emerge, fully formed, as the selfish CB we see today. Get over yourself already. Bill Gates himself wouldn’t take half the personal credit for his success you do.

      • Robert Smith

        From DaveH: “Force — something Liberal Progressives thrive on.”

        Do you mean like blowing up clinics?

        Do you mean like tossing protesters out of parks?

        BTW, a fire can’t tell who paid or not. Yet if someone else’s cow kicks over a lamp someone can be wiped out through no fault of their own. Ohhhhhh, wait a minute, it’s an act of that there brutal christian right wing god and that makes it OK.

        Rob

      • eddie47d

        Even the original Pilgrims who went out “on their own” still depended on others for materials and a place to sell their goods. All the Daniel Boone’s here think they did it all on their own. Even Daniel depended on others along his journey in life.

      • DaveH

        Ignoring the personal attacks which the Liberal Progressives can’t seem to function without, I will address Jeff’s flawed logic:
        Jeff says — “You never benefitted from any public investment in education, defense, roads, nothing”.
        You see how they work, Folks? First they Force you to pay for things that you don’t necessarily use or want, or that you could have acquired much more cheaply in the Private Sector. Then they try to guilt you, when you advocate doing away with those services, because you used those services that you were Forced to pay for. Only in a Liberal Progressive mind can such fallacious manipulative statements be concocted.

        • Jack Worthington

          Excellent refutation. Thanks DaveH. I would like to see Fox News hire a group of logicians to disect every commie/socialist/obummanista utterance. I believe they would then expose, as you have, the lies, the fallacies, the concealment of economic truths and their inherent deceitful natures.

      • DaveH

        Rob says — “From DaveH: “Force — something Liberal Progressives thrive on.”
        “Do you mean like blowing up clinics?”.
        Non sequitur, Robert. I do not advocate Force no matter who it comes from.

        Rob says — “Do you mean like tossing protesters out of parks?”.
        I don’t know what you’re talking about, Rob? Were they trespassing? Were they crowding out other people who had legitimate use of the parks? Were they camping, pissing or crapping on other peoples’ property? There are so many possible situations. You need to be less vague if you want an answer.

        Rob says — “BTW, a fire can’t tell who paid or not. Yet if someone else’s cow kicks over a lamp someone can be wiped out through no fault of their own. Ohhhhhh, wait a minute, it’s an act of that there brutal christian right wing god and that makes it OK.”.
        Only a Liberal Progressive could spout such nonsense.
        Who’s stopping you, Robert, from buying your own Fire Protection Services? If you’re afraid of possible future calamity, who is stopping you from buying protection from that possible event?
        Certainly not me. I wouldn’t dream of being like you, Robert, and spending other peoples’ money.
        That’s because, unlike you Robert, I am not a Selfish Human Being. I care about other peoples’ choices and Freedom.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Yes Dave but that would be protecting me alone. My point was that in the case of the fire department in serving the community the individual is also served. My point was that serving the community does not mean the individual is neglected. The individual can benefit from community efforts. Also those fire man choose to be fire man and choose to help their community. It was not forced on them. Granted once they became fire man they were required or forced to put out fires. But I do not think you can complain about being forced to do something you are responsible for doing. I do not like force Dave. But just because you are forced to do something does not make you a victim. Force does not equal oppression.

      • Jeff

        CB:

        Who is the “they” to whom you refer? Your claim is all taxation is theft. Therefore, all government is illegitimate? Have I missed something? You don’t like being charged for things you don’t want. And what might those things be? Should you be able to deduct the part used for roads if you don’t drive a car? Can you deduct the part for defense if you don’t like wars of conquest? How about deducting the part that goes to the EPA because you personally like dirty air? And deduct it from what? If taxation is theft, then all of it is out of bounds? Is it that you don’t want to be tarred with the logical conclusion of your statement?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Taxation is used to control our behaviors and our social value system. Why do you think leisure taxes exist? Communism, Nazism, all despot isms throughout history have used steadily increasing taxation as one means of controlling their population’s purse strings and thus their lives. The taxes the average person in Cuba pays is 97%.

        A second means of control is propaganda…..stating the same untruths over and over, until the population finally believes. Fear is a third means of control, which our liberal-progressive friends have used consistently at each presidential campaign since Clinton first became President; against any conservative presidential nominee. Examples: ‘the elderly will not have benefits or money to buy food or medicine’; ‘the school children will lose their lunch monies’- if so and so is elected, etc., etc.. The list goes on and the progressive-liberals care not who they scare and lie to, as long as they can get more of and keep their power.

        • Jack Worthington

          Right on Jay! You evidence logic/reasoning accompanied with ehtics/morality. The commie/socialist obummanistas conceal the truth, hide the facts, stall, delay, deny ecomomic truths from history, spout fallacious arguments to trap the unwary and generally defy logical analysis on most any topic or issue.

      • eddie47d

        Jay and Jack come across as “wiseguys” on their double header comments.Oblivious to the power grab from the 1% Elites. As history has proven you only need a few people in choice positions to ride herd on the rest of us. That can work for communism or capitalism.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        The problem Jay is taxes are not steadily increasing. The marginal tax rate on the top 2% of wage earners as well as the capital gains tax have both been decreasing for the past two decades. They are at historic lows. No one is advocating tax increase any where near 97%. With respect I believe fear mongering and hyperbolic propaganda is not the exclusive province of liberals. For one thing you just used Cuba as an example of why higher taxes is wrong and you mentioned how Nazi and the Communists steadily increased taxes to control the people. That sounds like slippery slope propaganda to me.

      • Robert Smith

        Jay says: “The taxes the average person in Cuba pays is 97%.”

        Prove that or admit you pulled a lie out of the exhaust of a bull’s deigestive system.

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        Jeremy says: “No one is advocating tax increase any where near 97%”

        That’s a fact.

        Let’s go back to the same tax rate under the alleged perfect president that the right loves so much, Ronald Reagan.

        Rob

      • DaveH

        Jeff says — “Should you be able to deduct the part used for roads if you don’t drive a car?”.
        Deduct? Who said anything about Deduction. I would abolish Income Taxes. What I said is that people shouldn’t have to pay for what they don’t use. So yes, if I didn’t use the Roads, I shouldn’t have to pay for them. And don’t bother annoying me, Jeff, with the excuse that businesses that sell products to me do use the roads, because the easy remedy for that is for them to account for their road fees in their product prices.
        With modern technology, there are no longer any excuses for the people who use the roads to not pay for their usage with user fees. And Privately constructed toll roads are popping up all over our country, mostly because Governments have wasted so much money on Socialism that they simply have no choice but to turn to the efficient Private Sector for their roads:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUULDlMPFYU

        Jeff says — “Can you deduct the part for defense if you don’t like wars of conquest?”.
        Again with that deduction thing. They’ve got Jeff well-trained.
        The answer to that question, Jeff, is that our Government has NO business being militarily involved in those other countries. But certainly, if they do get involved, the people who champion that involvement should pay with their own dollars.

        Jeff says — “How about deducting the part that goes to the EPA because you personally like dirty air?”.
        First of all the EPA is just a political organization and thus practices politics instead of their real mandate to stop pollution. We would be much better served by Laws which dictated concretely when an organization was trespassing on the property or bodies of others, and when such organization was identified the people would join in a class action suit or some other court action to seek remedy from the polluters.
        That way only the perpetrators of the pollution would pay — As It Should Be.

        Jeff says — “If taxation is theft, then all of it is out of bounds? Is it that you don’t want to be tarred with the logical conclusion of your statement?”.
        Why should Government have Monopoly power over the services that we desire or don’t desire?
        Most of what Government does could be, and would be, done in the Private Sector. And it would be done more cheaply, more efficiently, more politely, and voluntarily on the part of the purchasers. Those services which were deemed to be solely the realm of Government would be paid by user fees whenever possible, and by equal fees to everybody when user fees would not be feasible (such as National Defense).
        Like I would be afraid of being “tarred with the logical conclusion” of anything you say, Jeff. You are obviously one of those zealots who is benefiting from Big Government at the rest of our expense, so emotion rather than logic is that which is most likely to come out of your mouth.

        • Jeff

          CB:

          I do not benefit from big government. I do not work for Halliburton or Lockheed or any other fine private enterprise that profits from government contracts. I don’t consider myself a zealot but a thinking human being who thinks your prescription for “society” is nuts. And I daresay the vast majority agrees with me. Even Republicans who want to shrink government recognize its value. They may want to pay less in taxes, but they recognize the private sector can’t do everything. Who’s going to pay for the courts you think can handle everything without government? Stop insulting everyone’s intelligence by assuming all collective action undertaken by people, through government at any level, is tantamount to Stalinism. I guarantee you von Mises himself wouldn’t agree. In fact, I had a seance with him the other day. He told me not to listen to that shmuck who presumes to speak for him.

      • DaveH

        Yes Jeff, you are a zealot. And you probably do benefit from Big Government at the rest of our expense. I wouldn’t expect a guy who calls people “Creepy Bastards”, just because they disagree with him, to be an honest man.
        Don’t know if you’re a Bastard or not, Jeff, but you certainly are beyond Creepy.

        • Jeff

          Dave, I’ve explained to you it’s not your views that make you creepy; it’s the fact you can’t accept someone’s disagreement without assuming he’s somehow “on the take.”

      • JeffH

        Childish troll Jeff, is this the best you got? A profane play on words and an extended snicker fest.

        I do understand your dilemma Jeff. Liberals Tend To Be Childish, Resentful, and Authoritarian.

        At the core of the liberal personality is an excessive degree of egoism, which in the worst cases amounts to narcissism. This excessive egoism is an infantile characteristic. Which means, it is a normal characteristic in infants, but in the case of healthy growth it recedes as the individual develops and matures. In the case of liberals, it is their permissive upbringing that tends to retards the normal process of maturing.

        Another very important element in the liberal personality…an element closely related to the egoism…is resentment coupled with envy. That is why in the past liberalism has sometimes been called an ideology based on resentment. The liberal finds very distasteful the notion that some people are brighter than he is, better looking, more industrious, more righteous or moral, more cultured, more artistic, more capable, or more successful. And he regards these people who are better than he is — and because of being better, more powerful — as a threat, as an irksome constraint. This envy and resentment is in a way a carryover into adult life of the sort of resentment that a spoiled, self-indulgent child might feel toward a parent who won’t let him do exactly what he wants to do, a parent who won’t let him eat all the cookies in the cookie jar or torment an animal for his amusement or “play with himself,” to use a familiar euphemism. It may express itself in infancy in the form of a tantrum. In adulthood it is expressed as a strong attraction to the ideology of egalitarianism: the idea that no one is better than anyone else.
        -How Liberals Think-By Dr. William Pierce

        • Jeff

          First, I think you’re responding to the wrong person. My posts have been about geography and your being a Nazi who gets off on swastikas and pictures of your Uncle Adolph. But since you’re making ridiculous accusations about liberals, let me just say you’re full of baloney and so is “Dr. Pierce.” Many studies have shown it is conservatives, not liberals, who have an authoritarian personality and who are rigid in their thinking. That’s not always a bad thing. It probably had utility when hunting for food. Reacting to preconceived ideas of what’s a predator and what’s prey is probably wise when hunting large animals. In our modern society, not so much.

          Liberals simply believe we have an obligation to one another. Many of the most outspoken liberals are quite well off personally and would probably be personally better off under conservative low tax plans. They are liberals not because they were told they can’t have something but because they have a sense of social justice that’s different from yours. If you see someone hungry on the street, you can think (1) someone needs to feed him because it’s unjust that he go hungry in the presence of plenty or you can think (2) it’s just that he go hungry because he failed to prosper in our economic system. Which thought you have determines if you’re a liberal or a conservative.

          There are real books on this topic not written by the equivalent of Michael Savage if you’re interested.

      • JeffH

        I’m not sorry I have to tell you this Jeff, but I was responding to you and your continued inane diatribes.
        As for your constant references to Nazi’s Jeff…it’s all in your head, conspiracy theory, boogeymen. But I do understand how you come up with the idea…I tossed you a crumb and you though you could build a cake.

        “Ihre Blindheit und Ignoranz ist so fest wie ein Berg von Eisen.” Wenn Anfangs Sie nicht gelingt, versuchen, versuchen Sie es erneut. Beenden Sie dann. Es gibt keinen Sinn, wird verdammt lächerlich darüber.

        • Jeff

          Your posts are the only ones I’ve seen here adorned with swastikas and pictures of Hitler. If you’re not a Nazi, you’re a sick puppy.

          As for my “inane diatribes,” if you’re unable to read them, I’ll be happy to translate them into preschool language. I haven’t seen you refute any point I’ve made.

      • JeffH

        After that last one I’m ROFLMAOPMP…you’re a real piece of work as well as a complete and utter dolt.

        All of a sudden you want to be taken seriously? Is that what you want? All of your trolling and childish comments and actions and now you want to be taken seriously?
        Sorry Jeff, I don’t are to have any discusiions with childish trolls like you, I much prefer to make my points quite clear with actual sound sources to back them up. I rarely, if ever, use references from your much hated FOX or Limbaugh.

        Case in point, Obama’s citizenship, of which you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that he is not a “natural born citizen” despite the unprecidented amount of proof that’s been presented to you, including actual Supreme Court cases that have, in there decisions, clearly defined who can and cannot be a natural born citizen. I know this “flips your switch” and that’s just one reason I keep bringing it up.

        You, on the other hand, get your talking points from such sources as TPMMuckraker, the Democratic Underground, Media Matters et al.

        You can’t even figure out why I change my avatar the way I do. Hook, line and sinker. To put it bluntly Jeff, you’re really not very bright at all.

        • Jeff

          Obnoxious Nazi Creep:

          I have never read a civil post by you. Your earlier posts about the meaning of “natural born citizen” are nonsensical. Not one of the cases you cited actually stands for the proposition ascribed. One of them involved a footnote, not a holding, and a reference to a different case involving a different set of facts. The Court acknowledged that in the set of facts where both parents were citizens, the child was one (despite being born female), but at no time did that case (or any other) say someone born here was not a natural born citizen because of the citizenship of his parents.

          You are clearly being fed this line of bull by some right wing organization telling you it has the answers. You still haven’t responded to the question why none of your lawsuits has ever survived a motion to dismiss even given all the right wing judges appointed by W.

      • JeffH

        Child troll Jeff, you are a straight up liar. I very clearly answered your question “eons’ago. Judicial corruption is most likely the reason that no court will take on the “natural born issue”! If you recall, almost all of the lawsuits were based on whether O’man was even a citizen at all. I’m not disputing that fact…that’s not the basis for my arguement. My arguement is based solely on the fact that Obama is not and cannot be a “natural born citizen”…supported by actual facts and actual Supreme Court cases that have “defined” who can and cannot be considered a “natural born citizen”. I’ve made my case based on Supreme Court rulings regarding citizenship issues and the history of the “natural born citizenship” requirement clause in the Constitution.

        I’ve never based my arguement on the basis of O’mans birthplace or even the validity of his own attorney’s admmission of the fraudulent birth certificate that was posted online by O’man.

        FYI, you drew first blood with your childish retorts, ad hominums and slander so don’t(all of a sudden)expect any civil discussion or debate from me. You’ve clearly established yourself as a progessive childish and manipulative troll.
        You therefore have nada, that’s zero(0), credibility.

        The PTB love people like you, easily manipulated through their propaganda…now get your head out of the trough long enough to say baaahhhhhh, baaahhhhh, baaaahhhhh!

        Troll on child.

        • Jeff

          That’s rich. Personal insults from a Nazi lover. I know exactly what your :”argument” is based on and it’s nothing more than wishful thinking. The term is not defined in the Constitution and the cases you cite simply do not say what you think or want them to say. Judicial corruption is a nonsense argument and you should know it.

      • JeffH

        The usefull idiot repeats himself with another resounding chorus of baaahhhh, baaahhhh, baaahhh’s!

        POLLY WANT A CRACKER? bbbaaarrraaaccckkkkkk!

    • DaveH

      Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “I have never called the police to my home yet there have been crimes in my city and once or twice rather violent crimes. To what do I owe the prevention of further crimes-the police”.
      The prevention of further crimes? Nice equivocation — avoiding the truth that at the present the police would have gotten there in time to send your body to autopsy and take a report. But did they really prevent “further crimes”? Well we know that they didn’t prevent the “present” crimes, so why would anybody logical figure they would have prevented “further” crimes?

      • eddie47d

        Dave H loves to argue whether the sky is blue or gray depending on which day it is. You must have a hard time living with yourself as much as you equivocate. We got the jest of Jeremy’s comment but you have to come along and confuse yourself. Besides Jeremy and Flashman (Flashy) don’t even write alike so get over your attempt at humor or is it more of your egotistical sarcasm!

      • Robert Smith

        From DaveH (AKA samurai): “But did they really prevent “further crimes”? Well we know that they didn’t prevent the “present” crimes, so why would anybody logical figure they would have prevented “further” crimes?”

        Most crimes are committed by a very small minority. Getting them off the street and in jail does prevent crime.

        Rob

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “From DaveH (AKA samurai)”.
        Do you have any proof for that slander, Robert? I have proof that Jeremy is a personality of Flashman:
        http://personalliberty.com/2011/05/16/what-now/#comment-341969

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Most crimes are committed by a very small minority. Getting them off the street and in jail does prevent crime”.
        Can you prove that Robert? We keep putting them in jail, and crimes keep occurring. Why is that? Could it be that prison, as it currently is administered, does more to educate criminals in crime techniques (at the hands of other prisoners) and make them so dependent on free room and board that when they get out they know no other way to live but commit more crime? Add to that the fact that it is very difficult for ex-cons to find work.
        For those who would like to investigate this issue more thoroughly, Veronica DeRugy writes “The Facts about American Prisons”:
        http://reason.org/news/show/the-facts-about-american-prisons

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Because the presence of the police and their ability to respond serves as a deterint. I have heard of sociopaths who say the only thing keeping them from killing people is that they would have to go to jail. The mere presence of the police can prevent some future crimes. Something is better then nothing. And since my city has a very low crime rate I am pretty satisfied with the police. Its not that way everywhere. But my point is it can work.

      • eddie47d

        That is not proof Dave H! As was stated below Bob’s answer on May 17th several others refuted that .

      • Robert Smith

        DavidH claims: “I have proof that Jeremy is a personality of Flashman”

        Nope. What “proof” offered by Livingston is that it’s the same IP address. BTW, is information about other posters available to everyone? Oh, wait a minute I see it as an easy possibility that samurai and his wife can easily be using the same computer. Should we presume the to be the same poster?

        IOW, a common IP address doesn’t say that the same fingers are typing on the keyboard. I can imagine several students using the same computer in a library. In my own home I am not the exclusive user of this computer.

        You can’t “convict” someone on the basis of an IP address. It really isn’t proof, simply that many folks can use the same computer.

        So, can you PROVE that you aren’t samurai? After all I can believe whart I want if I follow the many examples of the condemnation of Rice that are unfounded.

        Rob

      • Karolyn

        Rob – Some people have made this a full time job – keeping files on posters so that they can be used when necessary to supposedly compromise their legitimacy or veracity. Who really cares that much? All points made are worthy of thought if one is an open-minded person and wishes to find the truth Actually, Rob, it would serve you well to allow for the possibility that those not in agreement with you just might not be wrong. And, of course, some people constantly berate others for what they do themselves, ie, ad hominem attacks.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Nope. What “proof” offered by Livingston is that it’s the same IP address. BTW, is information about other posters available to everyone? Oh, wait a minute I see it as an easy possibility that samurai and his wife can easily be using the same computer. Should we presume the to be the same poster?”.
        That is correct, Robert. Jeremy could have just been using the same computer as Flashman, as well as the other characters involved. But what do you think the chances would be that Samurai and his Wife would not know about each other using the computer? What do you think the chances would be that all eight of those characters would be using the same computer and yet not be aware of such sharing? Jeremy had ample opportunity to state such an excuse, but he never did. So, yes, definitely they could have been all different individuals working for the same shill organization. But in that case, that also being deception, they didn’t want to confess to it:
        http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread826545/pg1&addstar=1&on=13829871#pid13829871

        Note by the way, that after Bob’s revelation, most of those eight were never heard from again. Odd, isn’t it?

      • DaveH

        Karolyn says — “Rob – Some people have made this a full time job – keeping files on posters so that they can be used when necessary to supposedly compromise their legitimacy or veracity”.
        Isn’t it terrible that I expose you Liberal Progressives for what you really are with your own comments? There should be a law against that.
        Perhaps, Karolyn, if you don’t want to be exposed as a hypocrite, you should make an effort to be more consistent.
        I rarely personally attack people who haven’t drawn first blood (usually many times). I know you dishonest Liberal Progressives would prefer that I bring a knife to your gun fights, but I’m just not wired that way. I treat people respectfully who deserve respect. And I treat people disrespectfully who deserve disrespect.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        The first reason Dave is I had no knowledge of anyone else having the same IP address. I will say right now if someone else is using this computer they are doing so without my knowledge or permission. I use my home computer to come on to this site. I am the only one who uses it and as far as I know I am the only member of my family who knows about these site. So I suppose the “excuse” goes out the window. All I can say is what I have always said. I only come on this site as Jeremy Leochner. I have never come on as anyone else. You may not believe me but it is a simple fact. I honestly do not know how any other person on this site has the same IP address. Unless someone is breaking into my home and logging on using my computer, I have been hacked or someone else in my city is coming on to this site. Either way the truth is the truth. I only come on this site as Jeremy Leochner. That is as true a statement as the sky is blue or the earth revolves around the sun. I have no excuses to offer, no evidence to support and no references to defend me. All I have is what I have always said. Jeremy Leochner is my name, if you choose not to believe me there is nothing I can do. Just know that it is the truth to me.

      • DaveH

        And we should assume honesty from a guy who advocates the redistribution of other peoples’ money, why?

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Because I am willing to say something that is unpopular. Also I am willing to say that I support what everyone supports. We just do not like admitting it.

    • Ann Francis

      I believe the point Mr. Woods brings to this setting is that due to human nature when NOT mandated by guard around the supplies etc. people had more to share/give/provide in the FREEDOM to do for ones self rather than working for those who only take from those who provide, and tell me whether in Pilgrim’s days or today, which is the more selfish and greedy, those who take with sharing only what they MUST or those who share giving freely of what THEY have earned. I am all too familiar with some who go to every pot-luck carrying the cheapest, day-old buns and such and pig-out on home made pies and goodies, only toooooo anxiouse to take home any leftovers! There are various degrees of these behaviors for sure and our current system shows how government providing for families only provides more that need and fewer to provide.
      As to the use of fire/police etc. I too have paid taxes to provide such yet am not a great consumer of their services and that I willingly support, however, consider the affects should those who abuse their services (I can’t remember the exact stats but I recall reading the very small percentage of citizens use a very high percentage of services) should be billed for such services and the taxes from the gerneral provide only for supplies, equipment and salaries?
      There is a basic principle that you seem to either miss completely or it seems more likely (reading your comments) have gone to great lengths to refute Chip’s premise and that is the element of FREEDOM!!! And the relevence to today’s happenings is that the more freedom that government takes from us the less we have to share – the less apt we are to do for others as it becomes even harder to provide for ones’ self.
      It is that endless cycle of power to control others that costs all!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        You missed a point entirely, people also have the Freedom and Liberty not to be forced or coerced into being charitable or caring, their own choices to make. But the typical Dems/Progs/Leftists have a perverse character trait that they have to force and coerce people supposedly for their own good.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I can respect your points Ann. What I am trying to focus on is specifics. I so often hear these generalizing statements of government forcing people to be charitable and as you said government taking freedoms from us. What I am trying to say is government regulation is not the opposite of freedom. As you said you support funding the fire department and police. We are arguing levels now. Its that old joke- would you sleep with my for a million days-sure, would you sleep with me for 10 dollars-no. So we are now just arguing price. That is what I am saying.

      • Jana

        Jeremy,
        You will make a very good lawyer one of these days. You can out talk a lot of people, but it does not make you right.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I appreciate the compliment Jana. I just love to talk. I do not think it would be a good though. I like to tell the truth. I just tell what I believe to be the truth. I know I may be wrong. But for now I believe what I say is right.

      • Jana

        Well Jeremy, since you are still so young, you will be paying the rest of your life for what you THINK is right. You have such lofty ideals, but sadly they will cost you a lot in the future. These ideals of yurs are based on a theory that has been tried and failed and tried and failed again. You get to pay for the failure. The sad part is we all have to pay too, beause of people like you who won’t listen.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I am listening Jana. I want to cut spending and I want to use tax dollars properly. I want to make government better and more accountable. I want libertarians and conservatives to be in government to hold it accountable and keep the paycheck balanced. I just do not want to cut all spending and I do not believe that having the government take money to pay for things we all use is a bad idea in and of itself. I am sorry. I do not want anyone to suffer because of me. But I believe what I believe. If I can be shown I am wrong so be it. But till now I have yet to see anything that tells me that government should not be taxing at all and that any government regulation is bad.

        • Jack Worthington

          Who gets to define “properly?” And how is it define by the erudite individual? “Fair” is another of those word carelessly thrown around, but “fair” like “beauty” is in the mind of the beholder, it is subjective, having temporal and geographic properties, i.e. iti dynamic, changing. It is a philoslphical mistake to define “fair tax” and yet people and particularly politicians throw around “fair” this and “fair” that as if they were axioms or laws and people are seduced and deceived by such illogical claims. Ignorance is bliss but leads to the abyss. Usually, when one uses such qualifiers as “properly” it raises “red flags” much as does the use of superlatives.

          • Samuel Clemens

            Everybody, Listen Up! Here is the situation in a nut shell. Our elected politicians in Washington maintain their power by buying votes, the Democrat party being the primary culprit. The Federal Government has created a segment of our society that are 3rd generation welfare recipients. Our government has spent our country into a $16,000,000,000,000 oblivion and growing debt. The Democrats can’t balance the budget or reduce spending because that would cost them their vote buying money. Their only recourse is to raise taxes by the rich “paying their fair share”, never mind that the rich already pay 75% + – of the federal revenue now
            It’s not about right/left, conservatives/liberals; it’s about morals, values & principles that made the United States of America,the greatest & most prosperous nation to ever exist in the history of the world.These morals, values & principles are being eroded by parasites and destroying this nation.

          • Jack Worthington

            We are the “greatest and most prosperous nation” because of the fiat currency/credit system that has allowed us to loot the world. We gave phony pieces of cloth or computer bits in exchange for real substances. Our morals/ethics were sold out long ago by the majorities who elected politicians who promised to loot A to satisfy B. The parasites are many and in fact most of us are in some way subservient, voluntary slaves, to the government handout system. The producers are becoming fewer and their outputs and wages are falling as has always occurred where commie/socialism operated or operates. I don’t expect a “solution” from politicians, I don’t expect a change of ethics in such people and the majority, as the recent election evidences, is not about to experience and epiphany. We certainly are going to get more people attempting to pervert definitions and use words like “properly” without qulitatively, quantitatively, discriminatingly and segregatingly defining them, which far from facilitating communication, just muddy the waters. Ignorance is bliss but leads to the abyss.

          • Jeff

            Tell us the story again, Grampa. About how the debt got run up. Those awful welfare people who like eating so much. Here’s the real story.

            http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/obama-romney-deficit-debt-chart.php

          • Samuel Clemens

            So why won’t the Democrats propose a budget? Or reduce spending? Lyndon Johnson created food stamps, moved the Social Security Fund to the General Revenue, started the War on Poverty which we have lost, etc. All those increases in the deficit attributed to a Republican President were enacted by a Democrat controlled congress, from which spending comes.

          • Jeff

            As I recall, the Bush tax cuts, the prescription give-away to Big Pharma, and the idiotic pre-emptive wars were all begun under largely Republican-controlled Congresses. I say “largely” because the Senate went back and forth for a couple of years at the beginning of the Bush, Jr. Administration. But there are always a couple of conservative, hawkish democrats who can be counted on to go along with anything a Republican proposes. Remember, this was prior to the McConnell Doctrine requiring 60 votes to approve getting a broken window replaced. Bush had an extremely friendly Congress for the first 6 of his 8 (Doesn’t it seem like 80?) years in office. I know, all the problems were caused by Nancy Pelosi who took over the House in 2007. Anyone who believes that will pay you to whitewash your fence.

          • Samuel Clemens

            And the economy flourished under President Bush, started down hill in the last two years under the democrat controlled congress. That is what Obama inherited.

          • Jeff

            So, the tax cuts, the deregulation, and the wars had nothing to do with it? 2008 happened because of Nancy Pelosi’s lipstick? Put it in Huck Finn’s voice and I’ll read it.

          • Samuel Clemens

            The tax cuts & deregulation stimulated the economy & increased federal revenue. But lets not bring that up. The costs of the wars? Billions compared the the trillions in increase deficit. Anyway,let’s hear your plan after September 11,2001.

          • Jeff

            First, had a Democrat been in office, you guys would have blamed him for the Towers going down every single day without fail. Second, Afghanistan was stupid. Yes, we needed to show some force to scare Bin Laden and Company out of the country, but a full scale invasion was never the right way to go. Every empire in recorded history has failed there, so W was going to succeed where Alexander the Great failed?

            And Iraq? That was the dumbest move ever made by a President. Fitting as he was the most idiotic person to ever enter the White House in any capacity. The Democrats who trusted that little creep when he said he needed the Resolution in order to avoid military force deserved all the ridicule they received. While a small majority of Senate Democrats approved the Resolution, the overwhelming majority of House Democrats opposed it. That vote cost Hillary the presidency.

          • Samuel Clemens

            I asked, “WHAT WAS YOUR PLAN AFTER SEPTEMBER 11,2001.” It’s easy to be a critic. You think an apology would have been in order?

          • Jeff

            I don’t. Do you? By whom and for what?

            I said I thought we needed to do something to separate bin Laden from Afghanistan but not an invasion. Intelligence (both meanings of the term) is far more important than bombing and shooting when you don’t even know why you’re doing it.

          • Samuel Clemens

            OK. So you are not going to answer the question.

      • eddie47d

        That is like the argument that I don’t want those false flag wars but I still get them and I have to pay for them Jana! For generations to come at that.

      • Jana

        Jeremy,
        I answered you in an above post. What you are saying here makes sense. This is what the Conservatives are saying too.

      • Robert Smith

        Hey Jana! You post: “These ideals of yurs are based on a theory that has been tried and failed and tried and failed again. ”

        So are the ideas of croney capitalism and the corportacy we are under now.

        If it was so perfect why did they need such baill-outs?

        Paleeze don’t give me that old “government regulation” thing. It was DEREGULATION that put things askew.

        Rob

        • Jack Worthington

          Government created the Federal Reserve Bank and fiat currency/credit. When the economy crashed, government stepped in and said they would fix the problem they created. Then gov. stepped in an deregulated and now it is reregulating. The root cause was the creation of the Fed and its criminal fiat currency/credit system in the first place. So, I try to look as solutions that attack the root cause and not the symptoms. Attacking regulation or deregulation is dealing with the symptom, not the root cause. Ignorance is bliss but leads to the abyss.

      • GALT

        With the exception of the small detail that none of that is true, you might have had a point……

        Lords of Finance

        One of the main themes of the book is the role played by the central bankers’ insistence to adhere to the gold standard “even in the face of total catastrophe.”[1] As Joe Nocera, a book reviewer at the New York Times, stated, “the central bankers were prisoners of the economic orthodoxy of their time: the powerful belief that sound monetary policy had to revolve around the gold standard…Again and again, this straitjacket caused the central bankers — especially Norman, gold’s most fervent advocate — to make moves, like raising interest rates, that would allow their countries to hold on to their dwindling gold supplies, even though the larger economy desperately needed help in the form of lower interest rates.”[2]
        Another theme that runs through the book is how difficult it was to forecast the financial future and how the events would influence world events. “Mr. Ahamed’s opinions are made very clear (the Paris Peace Conference’s plan for Germany to pay war reparations is presented as a great blunder), but his overriding idea is that blame cannot be easily assigned: not even the most sophisticated economists of the era could accurately predict disaster, let alone guard against it. The effects of a public herd mentality at the time of the 1929 stock market crash are depicted, all too recognizably, as unstoppable.”[3]

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_Finance

      • DaveH

        Those who would be foolish enough to believe that the Central Bankers would have preferred a Gold Standard over a Fiat Money system, should read this:
        http://mises.org/Books/historyofmoney.pdf

        Gold Standards prevent banksters from creating money at will. That’s the last thing that Banksters want.

        Give people a Free Market in money (no legal tender laws) and you will soon see what kind of money Free People are willing to accept. I guarantee that it wouldn’t be fiat money.

      • DaveH

        Here’s a short book that describes well the concept of Money:
        http://mises.org/books/whathasgovernmentdone.pdf

      • DaveH

        Taking Money Back by Murray Rothbard:
        http://mises.org/rothbard/moneyback.asp

      • GALT

        Ah, desperation posts by the “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate”……Q.E.D.

        Funny how the gold standard which was in place in the U.S. and the U.S. controlling 80%
        of the world’s gold did NOT prevent what happened…….

        Strong was the head of the N.Y. Fed…….individual fed banks set their own policies,
        the structure most are familiar with today did not exist until the thirties……

        And after you waste your time reading all three books, you will still not
        have an explanation……..

        Given that DavidH has had six months to refute this argument, you would think
        he would have managed to have unearthed the facts to do so……..if the evidence
        exists in those books…….anyone who actually knew what he was talking about
        would have been able to find and post the evidence directly……..

        The link provided by me expands on the information provided……and contains other
        sources…….

        and my “secret weapon” once again performs to perfection……..

    • DaveH

      Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “And how can I know which restaurants are the safest to eat at”.
      How do you know now? Because the Government says so? Even though it is a proven fact that the Larger Government Grows, the Smaller the Economy is? And the smaller the economy is, the more people die from starvation, exposure, and myriad other poverty-induced health problems?
      What does Government do to restaurants that violate the public safety? Fine them? Nag them? Take bribes to ignore their violations?
      What does the public do when restaurants violate the public safety? They quit patronizing them, and the restaurant soon goes out of business. No halfway intelligent business owner ignores the safety of his/her customers.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        The problem Dave is in order for people to stop patronizing an unhealthy restaurant is for someone to be negatively affected first, qed become ill or possible worse. A government system of inspection and grading can prevent people from walking into an unhealthy restaurant in the first place. I love watching a show called Bar Rescue where night life expert Jon Taffer goes to failing bars and revamps them with new routines, new looks, new staff, new everything. So often the places he visits have deplorable sanitation. Yet people still come. They are either the most forgiving or in some cases are not aware. Because while the outside of the place may look comparatively clean in the kitchen it is a complete mess. Just watch the episode Downeys and Out. This is a Bar with a great and long history and reputation. It has a large following who continue to come to it despite the owners mismanagement. The outside looks clean enough so any person could easily walk up. However the kitchen is a complete mess. There were dead mice on the oven, food stored next to garbage and the freezer was busted so spoiled food was sitting next to not spoiled. The people who did get sick never came back as you said. But they did not tell other people to stay away. The problem with letting the free market stop bad business practices is it seems to take the market quite a while to get rid of it. And in the mean time people who are unaware of a business’s reputation may continue to come to that place because it appears just clean enough to be safe. For me its about prevention. You make a valid point that government needs to do its job and regulate and inspect and not take kick backs. That is a problem I want to discuss. But that is an issue of how the government regulates not if the government should regulate at all. We are in agreement that if government regulates it needs to do a better job.

      • Robert Smith

        Jeremy postes about “Bar Rescue”: “So often the places he visits have deplorable sanitation.”

        The one that blew me away was when he discovered a glass being used to scoop ice. He pointed out that a piece of glass could get into a drink and cause serious harm to someone.

        Great program. I’ve learned a lot about bar management from it.

        Rob

      • DaveH

        The problem with your anecdotal evidence, Jeremy, is just that — It’s anecdotal.
        I also have an anecdotal story. A lady friend of mine owned a bar/restaurant and the health inspector was extorting her. The truth is that Government officials, when given that power, can always find fault if they aren’t paid enough.
        Restaurant owners generally have a very large stake in the success of their business, and the last thing they want to do is to poison their customers who, even though maybe alone when experiencing a restaurant-caused illness, will spread the word and ruin the Owner’s business.
        And that’s what Food Critics are all about. If you are afraid of those dire food-place owners poisoning you, then subscribe to a rating service, or some other such private outfit that will let you know when a particular restaurant is not worthy of your business. We do not need Government, with their extorting agents and their blanket fees to people who don’t even eat out, to keep us safe.
        Here’s some reason on that subject:
        http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=56

      • Jeremy Leochner

        The reason for my anecdotal evidence Dave is to show that it is not all black and white. Government is not always wrong to investigate and as you pointed government is not always right. I am trying to say its not good guys versus bad guys. The government officials trying to investigate a restaurant are not automatically bad guys. The owners of these places are not bad guys either. There needs to be a balance between government power and accountability. What I want is for government to use its power more ethically, efficiently, effectively and productively. I think that will work just as well as decreasing the size of government. A better government is better then a smaller government.

    • DaveH

      Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “All people oppose taking from some to give to others. The problem is we are required to share in order to survive and thrive”.
      But isn’t that what Chip Wood’s real life example disproved? We don’t thrive under Socialism. It’s been proven time and again that Socialism degrades all but the parasitic Leaders and their pals.
      East and West Germany after the World War II split up are one of the most dramatic examples of that. The Germans had a common culture and heritage, yet after the split-up, the East Germans had Communism thrust upon them and as a result proceeded to swelter in poverty over the following decades, while West Germany had a strongly Capitalistic Society and thrived.
      For those who just don’t understand what Big Government does to economies, see this report:
      http://www.freetheworld.com/2011/reports/world/EFW2011_complete.pdf

      • Robert Rashbrooke

        Many years ago I lived in Zambia. Across the border was Rhodesia, ruled by a white clique led by Ian Smith, who had declared Unilateral Independence from UK. Because of this, UK and most of the developed world, operated a system of embargoes on the country. Despite it all, if one visited Rhodesia one could buy almost everything one needed, except color film; employment was high, hunger was almost non existent and life for most, including the Blacks, was serene.

        Eventually, Robert Mugabe and his cronies took over from Smith and ruled the country as a socialist heaven! Things went downhill quickly and inexorably, and racism ruled, abuses became rampant, freedom for EVERYONE not in ZANU, the President’s political party, completely disappeared. Inflation reached astronomic proportions.

        This complete failure was not inherently a fault of socialism per se, but rather a manifestation of the fact that Mugabe and his pals were a bunch of thuggish, self serving criminals intent on feathering their own nests at the expense of the country and the people. (see the video on his gold plated palace).

        Unfortunately, it is the same type of person who takes advantage of political situations to take over control of a country, any country, at the opportune moment . If that person operates a so called right wing dictatorship, that is almost accepted by the rest of the world, see, Stalin. Pol Pot, Pinochet et al. before being eventually criticized. But should that person operate a so called socialist system and it fails, then everyone right wing pontificates about the inherent fallibility of socialism rather than the characteristics of the people running the system. It all depends on one’s viewpoint.

        • Samuel Clemens

          You got it wrong. Stalin, Pol Pot, Pinochet were Left Wing dictatorships

          • Jeff

            Pinochet was no leftist. He conspired with the Nixinger Regime to overthrow the legally-elected President Allende, who committed the unpardonable crime of being a Socialist opposed to U.S. policy. We made sure the Chilean economy suffered and we made sure the coup succeeded. We did practically the same thing in Iran in 1954, but they hate us because of our freedoms. In the old days, the real Mark Twain would have gotten many belly laughs from Old W.

          • Samuel Clemens

            You missed the sarcasm, so let me be specific. Dictatorships are not left or right but totally self serving and absolute. Your declaring them the be right wing shows that you are perverting facts to serve your agenda..

          • Jeff

            I think you’re oversimplifying. Most dictatorships without a party apparatus are of the right. Socialist or communist revolutions usually have a party structure in place that provides for succession after the death of the top man. This feature, it used to be argued by the right, made left wing dictatorships more dangerous than one-man right wing dictatorships as the latter often fell apart following the leader’s death. To say Pinochet was anything but a right wing dictator is to pervert history.

          • Samuel Clemens

            Pinochet was right wing & Stalin & Pol Pot were democrats? (sarcasm)

          • Jeff

            Only on this blog.

          • Samuel Clemens

            MY Bed Time. I hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving & did not over indulge (sarcasm)

      • DaveH

        Jeff says — “He conspired with the Nixinger Regime to overthrow the legally-elected President Allende, who committed the unpardonable crime of being a Socialist opposed to U.S. policy”.

        Poor sweet little Allende. From Cato:
        http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/how-bad-economies-recover-fast-when-governments-get-out-way

        “September 1970 was the first time a Marxist was elected president of Chile, South America’s longest-running democracy. Salvador Allende seized businesses. He seized some 1,400 farms, and agricultural production collapsed. He seized banks, then went on a money-printing binge. Inflation hit 1,000 percent. Allende decreed price controls that caused severe shortages”.

        The reality of Socialism.

      • DaveH

        Chile is now ranked 7th in the Heritage Foundation’s ranking of Economic Freedom. It is notable that the US has fallen to 10th. So we are now economically less free than what used to be a third-world country.
        http://heritage.org/index/ranking
        According to the Fraser Institute, Chile is ranked 10th in Economic Freedom, and the US is ranked 18th.
        According to Wikipedia — “The economy of Chile is ranked as an upper-middle income economy by the World Bank, and is one of South America’s most stable and prosperous nations, leading Latin American nations in human development, competitiveness, income per capita, globalization, economic freedom, and low perception of corruption”.

      • DaveH

        Here is the Fraser Institute’s 2012 report on Economic Freedom:
        http://www.freetheworld.com/release.html

        Their country rankings are in chapter 1, on page 10.

      • DaveH
        • Jeff

          Dave, are you serious? That article is the biggest bunch of crap I’ve ever read and that includes some of your posts. Does von Mises “know” what’s being said under his name? He’s probably spinning in his grave at this very moment. Yes, he disliked communism on economic grounds, but he was a scholar, not a polemicist. The article didn’t even attempt to address the history of Chile, how the landed got that way, or what reforms Allende attempted. It also ignores our complicity in the coup against a legally elected leader. Men with guns suddenly appear? Is this the kind of bedtime stories you read to your grandchildren? Maybe that explains why their parents don’t bring them by so much.

    • DaveH

      Jeremy (aka Flashman) says — “The point is it does not appear to be communism that is opposed. Rather its misuse of tax money or misuse of government that is the problem. I am on board for tackling specific issues and trying to clean up and improve government and the tax code”.
      Is Jeremy admitting that he favors Communism?
      Oh sure, we should just “clean up”, “improve”, or otherwise reform Government. How many times have we heard that proposal ad nauseam throughout out lives? I know, we need a 5-year Plan.
      Big Government is the Problem, Not the Solution.
      But for people like Jeremy (aka Flashman), who are probably paid-shills, Big Government is indeed desirable. The rest of us can eat cake.

      • DaveH
      • Jeremy Leochner

        I am no shill Dave. I oppose communism. For me the problem is bad government not big government. We need to set limits on government obviously. But I do not equate smaller with better. That government which governs best governs best in my opinion. Government is not the solution to our problem but it is not the problem. It is part of the problem and it is part of the solution.

      • Jana

        Jeremy,
        The problem with big Government is we have 4 or 5 agencies doing the same job. We also have people in those agencies that become corrupt and do all manner of evils against the people in their jurisdiction. We have numerous horror stories of people being ripped off by these varying agencies.
        Big government is NOT the answer. Pretty soon all we have are all Chiefs and not enough normal Indians to do the work. Or another analagy is too many chefs and no cooks.
        We need a government that is responsive to the people. As it stands for Obama a victory of 51% against 48% is not a mandate!

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I respect that Obamas rather small victory is no mandate. And I see it as idiotic to have 4 or 5 agencies do the same job. We finally agree on something. I want a government that is less corrupt, more ethical more efficient and more effective. I do not know if smaller government will equal better government.

      • Jeff

        CB:

        Since you claim to know everything, please tell us who is paying these shills who dare to disagree with Dave and the von Mises Quartet?

      • Robert Smith

        From Jana: “Big government is NOT the answer.”"

        So, why did the darling of the extreme right, GWB, grow government so much?

        Rob

      • DaveH

        Jeff, the Troll says — “CB:
        Since you claim to know everything, please tell us who is paying these shills who dare to disagree with Dave and the von Mises Quartet?”.
        For those who aren’t aware, CB is short for “Creepy Bastard”. The typical name-calling that we’ve come to expect from childlike Liberal Progressives. These are the kind of people who claim to be “compassionate”. Of course their “compassion” comes at other peoples’ expense.
        No Jeff, I have never claimed to know everything. But it’s interesting to note that, even though I’m probably much more educated than you are about most things necessary for a good life, I still would never dream of trying to Force my way on other people through Big Government.
        Yet you, Jeff, whose ignorance is shown daily, are very anxious to impose your will on others through your Big Government.

        • Jeff

          Dave, the CB label comes not from your noxious political opinions but from your penchant for the personal insult. It is not Big Government you seem to be against but the very concept of Government and the idea that people can do anything cooperatively. You reflexively go to the Big Government thing so you can call someone a socialist and trot out von Mises. No straw men, Dave. It’s not pure Adam Smith vs. Karl Marx. We have a mixed economy, like every other country with the possible exception of North Korea. If taxation is theft as you claim, then you’re undercutting the very basis of our civilization and for purely selfish reasons.

          You may well be educated, but you don’t seem eager to educate the next generation. Why should you? What’s in it for DaveH? Probably nothing.

      • DaveH

        Only a Liberal Progressive like Jeff could say this — “Dave, the CB label comes not from your noxious political opinions but from your penchant for the personal insult”.
        So he very personally insults me with the term Creepy Bastard and then says it’s because of MY personal insults.
        Seek help, Jeff.

    • Samuel Clemens

      What I read is convoluted logic to justify parasites living off the labors of the hard working people. Even worse, justifying the government elected officials using the labors of the hard working people to buy the votes of the parasites to keep themselves in power. That is what the United States of Socialist America (USSA) has become. Our days are numbered if we continue on this path.

      • Robert Smith

        From Samuel: “What I read is convoluted logic to justify parasites living off the labors of the hard working people.”

        Yes, why do we even allow the cronie capitalists of the 1% screw the rest of us? Remember, Jesus tossed out the money changers.

        Making money on money is the worst possible way to “manage” an economy, yet that’s where the wealth and value of our economy is going… Being stolen from the rest of us.

        Rob

        • Jack Worthington

          There is no question that there are parasites, people who produce little or nothing of value but have the power to take from the hosts, the producers. As Etienne de la Boetie, we consent to tyranny, to voluntary slavery, by traditions, training, schooling, indoctrination, brainwashing. Indeed, Jesus did toss of the money changers/lenders/bankers. I’m not sure about an economy being managed by making money on money. We do have Fed and government ancting in consort to loot A to satisfy B by virtue of a monopoly to created fiat currency/credit, i.e. legalized plunder. Money is not wealth but a claim check to wealth. Wealth is that which sustains life, it is goods and services. Value is subjective, depending on time and place, i.e. it is dynamic, it changes. When money systems collapse people are ruined, except there are those who are more adept or knowledgeable and who survive because they are prepared, because they did not drink the “kool aid” or fallacies of commie/socialism.

        • Samuel Clemens

          I work for that 1% crony capitalist who pay me well, provide excellent benefits which allows my family to lead a good life. Have you been to that crony capitalist Walmart lately? What kind of crony capitalist car are you driving? Bet it’s foreign made, that’s the odds.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Yes, why do we even allow the cronie capitalists of the 1% screw the rest of us?”.
        Good question, Robert. Why do you? They can only screw the rest of us because Big Government protects them from competition and failure in myriad ways. And yet, Robert, you support that Big Government. So what gives?
        You could read this, Robert, and get educated, but chances are you won’t because you are somehow benefiting from that Big Government at the rest of our expense:
        http://library.mises.org/books/Kel%20Kelly/The%20Case%20for%20Legalizing%20Capitalism.pdf

        • Jeff

          “You could read this, Robert, and get educated, but chances are you won’t because you are somehow benefiting from that Big Government at the rest of our expense:”

          This is why I call you CB. Why can someone not just disagree with you? Why do they have to be part of some scam to steal your MONEY? I think many, even on this blog, find both your ideas and your attitude more than a little creepy.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Making money on money is the worst possible way to “manage” an economy, yet that’s where the wealth and value of our economy is going… Being stolen from the rest of us”.
        I doubt that you have the slightest clue what drives an economy, Robert.
        But I would particularly like to know how that money is “Being stolen from the rest of us”?

      • DaveH

        Jeff says — “This is why I call you CB”.
        No Jeff. You call me Creepy Bastard because you are a typical Liberal Progressive who has no logical or factual legs on which to stand, so therefore you must resort to childish manipulative personal attacking techniques.
        But please feel free to continue commenting in such manner because it doesn’t bother me for you guys to expose to America how intellectually bankrupt you are.

    • Seeker1212

      Jeremy, all that you spew about the benefits of shared services provided by government is a simpleminded analogy of communism.

      In the not too distant future, if changes are not made, you will experience the fallacy of your perceptions of the good benefits of sharing with those that don’t contribute to society by those that work the hardest to earn the resources that pays for all the services of a society.

      As the numbers of those that don’t contribute increase, and the numbers of those that provide the resources decrease, there won’t be enough resources to fund the services to maintain the quality of life and security that this nation has enjoyed.
      As the resources, the taxes, shrinks and the value of the dollar shrinks, due to overprinting of the Funny Money, those services that you did not directly call for will not be available when you do need them.

      And that my friend is the proven facts for the failure of every communistic nation in the history of this world..

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I am not supporting communism. I am trying to point out that efforts to help the community are not the same as communism. I do not want to neglect individuals. I want there to be more jobs. I want to broaden the tax base and I want to get us out of this recession. And I do not want only the top wage earners to foot the bill. My problem is when I bring up the suggestion that the top wage earners should pay a little more I am decried as a socialist who wants only the top earners to pay. I have never said or supported that idea. I like capitilism. I want to be rich some day. All I am against is this idea that somehow the free market is the best judge of who is the best company. That if you are a job creator you are exempt from tax increases. And above all I am against this idea that has been pushed by people like Mitt Romney that if you succeed its entirely because of you but if you fail its because the government did not help you. The idea that the free market is all about freedom liberty and success and government is repression and dependency. I am not saying government is great and wonderful and all our faith should placed in it. All I am saying is government efforts to improve the economy are not equal to communism. I do not support communism. But I do not call it communism when it is not communism.

    • don

      this guy is full of it an it ain’t turkey. goverment stinks as you.

    • Rosech

      There is the personal good and the public good. As we take care of our personal good, we are in a position to set up one or many public goods. The public goods would NOT happen unless the personal good was satisfied and we felt the need to help others. Forcing helping others doesn’t work because we are human! We do recognize that if our personal good is satisfied, then we can turn around and help others personally or by setting up groups or organizations for the public good. Has worked well over the millenia. The problem is now the public good is considered first and foremost and that is communism which has always benefited those who thought their personal good was to be purchased from the backs and labor of others. Charity begins at home, and then it can spread. As with anything, we are humans first, and the public good is an entity or idea that comes after, never before. It didn’t and doesn’t work for long. Today, we find that many do not want you or me to have any personal good, but take it away and force it on others and call it “good”. Think Obama.

      • eddie47d

        Almost a great speech there Rosech. Like everything else some of you think Obama invented every issue known to mankind at least that is what is continually implied. There have been government agencies helping the needy since the beginning of time. Granted some did a very lousy job but then again so did alot of private agencies over the years. Some say the church should be the only one concerned in helping out and they can do a wonderful job of it. They can also take in millions in charity funds feed a few souls and then build another mega church. So they learned to game the system too.

      • kent thompson

        So, allowing those who are strong to steal from the weak and then use their mal appropriated power to further weaken the weakest is all for the greater good? My parents would count among those who contribute less. They gave, worked hard and built a society (the greatest generation) that the empowered conservative/libertarian/republican media owners have propagandized people who either won’t or can’t think for themselves into regurgitating as talking point facts. Entitlement means they, by the fact of having built that, are entitled to not live in poverty, or die in despair.

    • 7Citizen7

      As for grades being different from working, you, sir, are missing the WHOLE point of the lesson. They are the same lesson, just about different things. Suppose you were making $100,000 per year. Your neighbor down the street only made $20,000. How would you like to give your neighbor $40,000 so that he would be equal with you? That is the point about the grades!!! I don’t see you giving away your money, do you????

    • Vigilant

      Jeremy says, “I would point out to Mr. Wood that policies involving economic resources are some what [sic] different then [sic] the system which helps determine and assign grades.”

      And I would point out to Jeremy that his socialistic views on policies involving economic resources are radically different from those envisioned by the Founders, and which made this country great.

      Indeed, it was the departure from those founding values (economic and otherwise) which have brought us to the brink of insolvency.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Vigilant how is paying for roads and bridges and public libraries with tax money radically different from the founders wishes. Benjamin Franklin came up with the idea for the first public library in America. How is wanting to pay for that so different from what they would have wanted.

        • Jack Worthington

          Ben Franklin was wrong. He got electricity polarity wrong. He was wrong about public libraries if he intended that people be fleeced/forced to pay for them and he was wrong about printing fiat currency.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Jack without Tax money we would have no public libraries. We would have libraries but they would be more akin to corporate book stores. They would be business’s and the books would not be free like in libraries. The effort to share books is not wrong but right in my opinion. And I go back to the simple fact that just because you are forced to do something does not mean that what you are forced to do is wrong.

        • Jack Worthington

          Correct, there would be no government sanctioned libraries which are paid out of compelled at the point of a gun on everyone, including those who do not use them or want them. It is immoral to compel someone to pay for that which he does not use or want. Yes, the libraries would be corporate. Nothing is free. This is a logical error. To say that something is supplied by government so as to be free to one, only means that the government has looted A to satisfy B. Sharing is nice so long as it is entered into by one acting freely, not under pressure or coerciion or by force of government tax police and government judges and a mob backing them. The use of force is wrong when it violates ones freedom wherein he has not done harm to person or property. Commie/socialism is the philosophy of suicide. As H.L. Mencken once said, government is broker in pillage and every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen property.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Jeremy: And I go back to the simple fact that just because you are forced to do something does not mean that what you are forced to do is wrong.

        And who determines if what is being forced upon you is right; the one who forcing or the one who is being forced? Do you no longer believe that people should have a voice, Jeremy? It appears so…

      • Vigilant

        “Vigilant how is paying for roads and bridges and public libraries with tax money radically different from the founders wishes.”

        Jeremy, I have always hoped against hope that people would understand the function and very purpose of the Constitution, instead of reading into it certain functions it does NOT confer upon the federal government.

        State roads, state bridges and public libraries are of ABSOLUTELY no concern to the federal government. Not only is it of no concern, it is expressly forbidden by the Constitution. These things, and others such as education and voting systems, were never within the federal government’s bailiwick. But you wouldn’t know it to take a look at the encroachment of the feds in these areas today.

        At national level, even such noble projects as the Transcontinental Railroad were not authorized to be funded by the taxpayers. Proponents of the Constitution as a “living document,” including Supreme Court justices, have expanded the Commerce, General Welfare and “necessary and proper” clauses to include all sorts of unlikely excuses to accomplish ends that the Founders never imagined.

        Does it truly make any sense that the 9th and 10th Amendments would have been added to the Constitution if the federal government could override all states’ affairs and authorities with the Commerce, General Welfare and “necessary and proper” clauses?

        But, perhaps more importantly, the continual bringing up of roads and bridges is a bit of a disingenuous tactic. It’s disingenuous because the bulk of argumentation from Conservatives has traditionally been over the most obvious (and highest costing) domestic spending items in the budget.

        Domestic welfare spending, AKA wealth redistribution, has grown faster than any other budget item over the years. While military spending (definitely a federal responsibility) has remained static at about 4-6% of GDP, welfare giveaways (both private and corporate) have grown to over 20% of GDP.

        The sustainability of such spending does not exist; we are broke, and the situation is so desperate that if you taxed everyone in the US at 100% of income, it wouldn’t cure the problem.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Jeremy, this is 2012 or has the year passed you somehow. If you want books to read buy your own. It is as simple as that. If you can’t afford new books there are old book vendors across the country and if you don’t want to keep your books the vendors will buy them back.
        Libraries are also an unnecessary tax burden, if you want them stick your hand in your pocket and support them.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Robert Smith, eddie47d, Jeremy L., always cry about the Sacred Cows that God forbid if anyone wants to stop funding for.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Jay I believe people should have a voice. That is why I am on here using my voice. I just do not believe that taxes in and of themselves and government in and of itself silences people. I keep hearing what seem to me to be hyperbolic arguments that taxes are no better then stealing and government regulation is nothing better then punishing success. Forgive me if I disagree. I do not want to silence anyone. But if I believe they are wrong I will voice my disagreement.

      • GALT

        And if you have a problem with “supporting” anything…..then stop complaining and
        do what is required to eliminate what it is you are complaining about……….it’s very
        easy…….simply follow directions……

        http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/freeman/freeman4.htm

        You have the power to solve your own problems…..stop complaining….

        Of course you may lack some other character traits that will also be required…..

        But that, like this…..is also YOUR PROBLEM.

      • eddie47d

        Now we know that Jack dislikes Ben Franklin and never makes mistakes and Nadzieja hates libraries and doesn’t want the dumb down masses to read! Now you can join Dave H in hating Abe Lincoln. What a bunch of self righteous crazies!

        • Jack Worthington

          Logic fallacy! You assumed I do not like Ben Franklin. You are wrong. I pointed out the 3 errors in ol’ Ben because he was held up as this great candle of virtue, which is far from the truth. Your slander is unwarranted but I see it was uttered in haste and without perspective or depth of thinking. I have noticed your rants are rife with logical fallacies. Might be you need to bone up on logical fallacies and then question each of your spoutings juxtaposed with say a copy of Stephan’s Logical Fallacies; I dare say you will discover the error of your ways.

      • eddie47d

        Oh yes Nadzieja its in India where the “cows are sacred” are you one of them?

    • doak

      Jeremy, I was impressed by the amount of writing that you did, just to make the point that you completely misunderstood the point Chip was trying to make

    • boyscout

      Interesting interpretation of Mr. Wood’s metaphoric analogy. Missing from the equasion, however, was the true and somewhat relative value of all of those As and Bs. How many were the deserved reflection of accomplishment as opposed to the results gained from observation over the shoulder of another or from a pony sheet. And, if cheating be rampant in class, is this not a true reflection of what goes on in American business, life, and dreligion? Of course, not all are cheaters, corporatist scum suckers, or faux religious money changers, but these do seem to set the standards all too often. And, the do seem to survive and thrive in all sorts of attempted governments.
      More thoughts, aggreements, contradictions much appreciated.
      ,

    • Chester

      Kenitic1, most of us do NOT support the president who “Bailed out the Bankers!” Mr. Bush left office nearly four years ago, and HE is the one who initiated the banking industry bailouts. The BIG problem with what he did is the fact that he put NO restrictions on what the banks could do with this rescue money, so a good number of upper level bankers got huge bonuses instead of more mortgage holders getting a break on something they had no fault in, unless you call buying a house that WAS well within your means when you bought it, then losing your job due to a bunch of other people going broke YOUR fault. Incidentally, most of the TARP money has been repaid, but there are a number of smaller, high value banks that have yet to give back a penny.

    • Deerinwater

      Jana say; ” Our country has made a dramatic turn TOWARD Socialism. For those of us who have lived true freedom we know what we are losing.”

      Well, ~ you are right of course Jana ~ I am thinking that you refer to Health Care Reform.

      But this same socialist cry was raised in 1965 with medicare. I remember the strong opposition my then young Uncle had to it. ~ while today he is now 89 and without it, I seriously doubt he would even be with us today. He have no teeth to eat his food since Medicare does not offer dental and he is to much of a tight ass to buy any teeth. He was the true conservative.

      I’m not suggesting that it’s neither good or bad, ~ as it’s a mixed up mess. ~ We have the ability to extend human life and so there is this desire to do so. Yet this extended life creates it’s own set of problems, the economics being but one of many.

      Then to, ~ the heath care reform act is requiring everyone to chip in and help paid for it. As oppose to some having coverage and some not , requiring local taxing authorities, churches, etc, to paid the bill, so that in the end we pay one way or the other, save for private funding. Or the sick don’t get care in a time manner and die or require three to five time the cost to cure for the delay in seeking medical attention.

      At 65, I’m young, and healthy ~ still working, I climb building ~ work in high places ~ I don’t need any health care ~~ today ~~ but with any luck ~~ my day too shall come. You are lucky if you can get old, while to each of us hope for the next day.

      I’m loosing hang time, ~ can jump as high as ever, ~ just can’t stay up in the air as long.

      I’ve got maybe 15,000 dollars max. to make myself well ~ and then I must start selling property. $15,000 dollars will buy you a mended broken leg or a Gall Badder removal with maybe some small change back. A 30 day illness could put me on the street or in my grave. ~ I’d prefer the grave to be poor and homeless.

      Discretionary spending has being pulled from Senior pockets to which can be only described as a “wealth transfer” ~ that in last 20 years time, Health care insurance had increased some 300% with no signs of slowed ~ This wealth transfer is a middle class Americans problem. This was what Health care reform was intended to address on the offset.

      The wealthy have their own problems, that comes as a Capital gains tax that threaten to transfer their wealth ~ while they can afford Health Care, regardless of cost.

      Two separate issues ~ but common with the transfer of wealth . ~ being mindful of the fact ~ the transfer of wealth is a old as Adam & Eve, we look for some balance to solve such a consorted mess of fairness via ideologies and craft legislation.

      I hear people say, American health care is some of the best in the world, I hear it is the most expensive as well. ~~ but I really don’t know and don’t really want to find out.

      • Jeff

        If you’ve made it to 65 without any real health challenges, you’re way ahead of the game. The chances of that being the case for the next 10 years approach zero.

  • sandman4X4

    This whole story is pointless, it was a different time, and when the pilgrims landed, there were no billionares among them, they were all poor and destitute and starving! and of an completely different culture, not one of them was a selfish spoiled brat, and not one of them was any more equal than any other. Plain and simple, they were pilgrims.

    • DaveH

      Plain and simple, they learned from their mistakes, unlike our modern day Liberal Progressive Followers who can ignore all kinds of evidence of failure as their gazes are fixed firmly on the trough.

      • JeffH

        Dave, simple explanation and right on the money.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      They still had typical human nature called Sin and endowing them with Pilgrim natures does them a disservice.You can take a simple thread of the Pilgrims arriving in America and you can extrapolate that given the circumstances they were in they would do certain things and certain consequences would occur such as no food you starve, winter with no heat or shelter you freeze to death, confined conditions you get irritated and angry with the people around you and you fight, etc..

      • Jana

        We can also figure that not all of them were Pilgrims, and not all of them were Christians. Some people came over with them to start anew, some were also those who worked on the ships that brought the passengers and they stayed. One more point, all who claim to be Christians are not.

    • don

      pure an simple there were some of them that as they do today who thought they deserved with out doing anything for it. solilism or commisim takes the incentive to work harder away an thats why it fails where ever it tried.

    • eddie47d

      When the Pilgrims came to this land they had no food or shelter in the dead of winter. Several died leaving women to fend for themselves and men having to take care of the kids. They had to work together and depend on each other or die. Would you help your neighbor if the husband died with those conditions or are you going to scream COMMUNISM and let her freeze to death. This whole article is nothing more than a arrogant hoax and full of faults.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      sandman: there were no billionares among them, they were all poor and destitute and starving!

      Really? So how were they able to pay for such a long journey that required; transportation, months worth of rations, money to pay for a ship’s Captain, and a worthy crew of seamen(not cheap)???? Poor and destitute, you say? Who do you think financed the expeditions, dumb dumb?

  • Jodi

    While I am not a proponent if communism, my Native ancestors practiced a form of it for thousands of years. And it worked. Why did it work for them and not for the Pilgrims? One word: greed. I am not of the notion that my ancestors were perfect and sinless, but the concept of greed, for the most part, is a foreign concept. When their lands were taken away from them due to the white belief of “manifest destiny”, they saw greed in its ugly form. The whites learned to grow crops from them and later used the constitution of the Iroquois confederacy to write their own Constitution, but more ideas about living could have been learned as well. Too bad. Now greed runs rampant whether you’re a democrat or republican.

    • Bj

      Nicely stated Jodi & Jeremy!

    • Karolyn

      This principle is seen in native tribes that exist in the Amazon – people who have not been exposed to societal mores. Civilation seems to have spoiled mankind.

      • DaveH

        What’s keeping you from living that lifestyle, Karolyn?

      • Karolyn

        Dave – In my youth I did consider living as a minimalist in the middle of the woods. It’s a little late for that now. Those natives live a happy and wonderful life.

    • DaveH

      Jodi says — “While I am not a proponent if communism, my Native ancestors practiced a form of it for thousands of years. And it worked”.
      It worked? How do you know, Jodi? What was their mortality rate? What was their lifestyle? How many of us would be willing to go back to that kind of lifestyle?
      There are many modern history examples of Communism, and they have all been failures.
      Why do you suppose we would encounter different results?

      • eddie47d

        There are many examples of gross injustices under Capitalistic systems also and some have brought complete failures. I don’t want to hear about your crony Capitalism excuses Dave for it smells as bad as your armpits. Equating Pilgrims with communism is no more than a cheap desperate trick among certain Conservatives. By the way I bet Chip uses everyone of those services that Jeremy mentioned. We all do and you do too!

      • Jeff

        CB:

        What is our infant mortality rate? What is France’s? I assume you think of France as a Stalinist dictatorship since they let poor people receive medical care. Quelle horreur!

      • DaveH

        Jeff says (after his typical adolescent insult (Creepy Bastard)) — “What is our infant mortality rate?”.
        What’s this? Jeff the abortion advocate pretending to care about infant mortality?
        To answer your infantile question, Jeff, different countries have different cultures, traditions, and economies. There are hundreds of differences between the US and France.To base a country comparison on one aspect of their culture is invalid. But keep grasping for straws, Jeff. I enjoy that you Liberal Progressives are fully exposing your lack of knowledge and logic on this board.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Jodi, clothing Communism in fancy tribal language is still Communism and most likely your ancestors did practice it and forced some others to work and support them and if they didn’t oblige they were robbed and killed and when that wasn’t enough raids were made on other tribes to steal what was produced.

    • don

      greed jodi knows no limits an your people were no exceptions..commism only works for the uper people. its all to control. every one winds up with less except at the top.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      Jodi, the initial reasons for the expedition to America were purely imperialistic in nature. The British Government at the time, being under the control of the east-india company, a conglomerate and vast corporation that occupied much of the known world at the time, and under the possession of private bankers, simply decided to expand their real-estate, and so sailed west, to America. All the blame for all the atrocities from that day forward, and to date, is not to be laid at the feet of the pilgrims, but at the feet of these private bankers, who still happen to control America, and rightly so; as America has been their possession from the beginning! Taxes is only interest collected on money owned, dumb dumb…for which it is used to make war, and confiscate more land, and make more slaves of people. The majority of previous commander in chief’s, all represented this evil-corporation, this includes our present potus…

      • eddie47d

        I approve your message Jay!

      • GALT

        Then, of course, there is the “real history”……….

        http://www.mayflowerfamilies.com/colonial_life/pilgrims.htm

        which like “real science” never seems to quite fit the needs of the “mushroom feeders”
        or the “mushrooms”…….for some reason if never occurs to the “mushrooms” to
        educate themselves regarding either……..after all, what better way to support a
        fantasy……than with another fantasy……..right Jay?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Interesting revision, Galt, and i have read many of such. The best i can say regarding such revisions is that they are certainly profitable, but client specific; namely, the anti-Christian tribe. They slurp-up that slop like soulless pigs at a trough…oink oink!

      • GALT

        I feel your pain my “willfully ignorant functional illiterate” pal, Jay.

        Just imagine what a conspiracy was involved in altering all these sources to produce
        this “revisionist version”,,,,,

        Founding of New England, The by Adams, J. T., (1921; repr. 1963)
        Bradford, William, Of Plymouth Plantation: 1620-1647, ed. by Samuel E.
        Morison (1952)
        Mayflower, The (1974) by Caffrey, Kate
        Mayflower Pilgrims, The by Colloms, Brenda (1977)
        Land Ho!–1620 by Nickerson, W. S. (1931).
        A Little Commonwealth: Family Life in Plymouth Colony by Demos, John (1988)
        Pilgrims, The by Dillon, Francis (1975)
        Mayflower Remembered: A History of the Plymouth Pilgrims by Gill, Crispin (1970)
        Saga of the Pilgrims by Harris, J.(1990)
        Pilgrim’s Own Story, The by Notson, A.W., and R.C., eds., Stepping Stones: (1987)
        Pilgrim Fathers from a Dutch Point of View by Plooij, D.(1932; repr. 1970)
        Bradford of Plymouth by Smith, Bradford (1951)
        Pilgrims and Their History by Usher, R. G. (1918)
        Pilgrim Reader (1953) and Saints and Strangers: Pilgrim Fathers, The by
        Willison, G. F. rev. ed. (1965).
        Pilgrim Colony: A History of New Plymouth, 1620-1691 by Langdon, G. D., Jr. (1966)
        Story of the Old Colony of New Plymouth, The by Morison, S. E. (1956);
        Plymouth Colony: Its History and People by Stratton, E.A. (1987)

        Of course there is a simpler solution, my dear little mushroom……consider the
        content of the meals you faithfully show up for every day……

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Again, Galt…oink oink…slurp slurp…eat it yourself!

      • Chester

        DaveH, what, may I ask, does being in favor of legalized abortion have to do with not worrying about infant mortality? Seems to me there is a big difference between terminating a pregnancy for whatever reason and losing a child that was wanted and is already living. Most abortions are not simply “for the convenience of the whore who deliberately got herself pregnant,” but for the girl, or woman, who through some mishap, got pregnant inintentionally. I know, in your opinion, there is no such thing as an unintentional or accidental pregnancy, but they do happen, and often times the woman in question does not want, and can not afford, another mouth to feed.

  • Frank

    In my opinion, the Pilgrams praxticed the form of “communism” that is set forth in the Christian Bible as opposed to the political form of Communism we think of today. There are many things that are similiar but also some things that are very different.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Sorry to tell you but there is not such thing as Biblical Communism. The desperation point that the Pilgrims reached made them make stupid choices. It is stil unbelief in the God they professed to believe.
      If “you” are expecting corporations, sports figures, actors and actresses, stores, etc., to contribute money to “charities” or be community involved you are practicing Communism by force.

      • Jana

        Nadzieja,
        Great reply, and you are so very right.

    • Charlie

      Frank,,,
      The Bible type government is called a Dictatorship or a Republic,,,certainly not communism!………….. King Jesus and His Law Book Rules… Is that communism ? It could be called , Kingdom Rule … Notice with the Pilgrims , William Bradford was one of the tuff and smart from the get go , but , he also endured some of the same problems and became the “elected” leader for the first 31 years of America…. Know The Bible, to figure the solutions to any problem……….. Meanwhile …………
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      Charlie Freedom

    • eddie47d

      So the Bible is a lie and we are not “Our Brothers Keepers” or we have no obligation to help the “Stranger in Need”. I knew some of my fellow Christians were hypocrites so no wonder Thanksgiving and Christmas have less meaning as time goes on. I reckon we’ll continue to leave it to the moneychangers to control our lives since they have us in the bag anyway.

      • Charlie

        eddie47d,,,
        Are you asking Charlie Freedom to give you a 1 year Bible study course in a few words comment ???……….. First , Your basic Bible knowledge is very small ,,, you have NOT accomplished Acts 2:38,,, which is needed to accomplish Psalm 119:160,,,which is needed
        to arrive at “Truth”…. For example, who is My brother ? What does the Bible say?…
        Meanwhile……………….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

  • Cliff

    It is true, I am responsible for myself and my actions. However, unless complemented with unselfishness, grace, a Godly strength, and compassion we fall into greed, self centeredness,
    and an attitude that we are god and others should bow down and worship me, a mare human being. It has been said, “we are strongest when we are at our weakest”. I believe this point is when we do acknowledge that there is a “Higher Power” we must rely on yet He does endow us all with different gifts and talents to complement each other for an abundant life together as human beings. He has made us all responsible; but, we as individuals must accept that responsibility and stop blaming others for our circumstances.

    • Karolyn

      God is in us all; and if we connect with our godliness, we are perfect. That is the only cure for society’s ills.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Well, have you arrived there yet? From your inane comments you are practicing a Lie.

      • Karolyn

        I wouldn’t talkk about inane if I were you, Nadzieja, although the word I would use for just about every one of your responses is “judgmental” and “missing the mark.” Very few “arrive.” At least I’m trying.

      • Jana

        Karolyn,
        God definetly wants to be in us all, but if we don’t know the One True God, we will fall for a false god. The way to know the One True God is to read his letters to us. Reading some of the prophecies in Jeremiah are like reading todays newspapers.
        We have to make sure we are following Truth.
        I can tell you are trying by the way.

      • Charlie

        Karolyn,,,
        First 2 orders from King Jesus Christ are at Matthew 6:33 ,,, Where is “The Kingdom” ?
        What is “Righteousness” ?… Matthew 6:9–13 , gives the answer to both… King Jesus said “be not deceived ” at , Luke 21:8… What’s the first step in coming out of One’s “brainwashing”??? ,,,answer:: Recognize one is brainwashed……….. Meanwhile…….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

      • Jana

        Charlie,
        I am laying out the scriptures you gave from the KJV:

        Matt 6:33

        33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
        KJV

        Luke 21:8

        8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
        KJV

        Matt 6:9-13

        9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

        10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

        11 Give us this day our daily bread.

        12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

        13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
        KJV

      • Jana

        I am adding one more scripture.
        Matt 7:18-23

        18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

        19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

        20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

        21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

        22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

        23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

      • eddie47d

        Yes Jana the corrupt fruit on Wall Street,Corporate boardrooms and in Washington will never bear good fruit and a few are pure evil.

      • Charlie

        Jana,,,
        Thanks for printing out The Scriptures,,, how many on this site will arrive at Matthew 7:22???

  • Jonathan

    It sounds like many of you here are missing the point. I believe Mr Wood was speaking of a principle, not a law. People in the welfare system won’t work any more than they have too to get by. Many of them tent to want more than they need. Their are a (LOT) of people who feel the system owes them something or everything, and they them selves wont contribute anything of them selves. You take away the welfare system, which is the biggest mistake this country ever made, and you will solve this problem. Let families take care of families. Let the communities help each other willing not forcefully. This country needs to stop dividing the people to conquer them. It’s true some of you may be comfortable with the way things are, but it is clear that this system does not work.

  • DaveH

    Chip says — “More acres were planted, more trees were felled, more houses were built and more game was slaughtered because of one simple change”.
    It’s a good thing they didn’t have Liberal Progressives back then to stop all that carnage on the environment.

  • Byrdman

    Native Americans conducted SAVAGE campaigns of war (bordering on genocide!) against each other long before the arrival of the pilgrims. I’m not buying that “the concept of greed . . . was a foreign concept.”
    When the minimal “sharing” required to provide for the public safety and administer the justice system gets extended to include provision of “Obama phones,” lifetime healthcare, YEARS of unemployment benefits and eternal pensions, the system has become WAY too overextended.

    • eddie47d

      Yet the Pilgrims learned real early that they could pit the Wampanoags against the Pequots and hundreds died as useful idiots for one side or the other. That is another American “tradition” that continued unabated for centuries.

  • Right Brain Thinker

    Chip says “After some trials and more than a few errors, I HIT UPON a couple of anecdotes that seemed to resonate with many members of my audiences”.

    There have been many “anecdotes” (and even experiments) based on the theme of “Redistribution of Grades”. Google it and you will get many hits, one of which is quoted in part below. I will not look for any that more closely follow Chip’s words, although I do recall reading some that were much closer than the one I quoted below—it was the very first hit and makes the point well enough.

    “An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer……

    The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

    After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little”…..

    What Chip said would lead one to believe that he is the one who HIT UPON this idea and should be credited with it. DaveH would NOT be pleased if Chip had actually taken this idea from others and wants us to believe it is original with him. Not accusing you of anything as serious as plagiarism, Chip—that’s a serious charge to level at a writer—some have lost their jobs over it
    .
    But if it “looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc…..” Can you clear this up for us, Chip?
    Are you the originator of the “redistribution of grades” idea?

    • DaveH

      RBT says — “DaveH would NOT be pleased if Chip had actually taken this idea from others and wants us to believe it is original with him”.
      Why does my name need to be mentioned here, RBT? Apparently, I am quite a threat to you. Do you know the difference between taking whole paragraphs from somebody else’s article (as Flashman has done), and sharing similar ideas? Apparently not.
      You can not cite a single comment of mine where I have discussed the originality of ideas. You’re just a Troll, RBT.
      There are few “original” ideas in Society. Almost everything we do or think had an origin with somebody else.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        You ask “Why does my name need to be mentioned here, RBT?” In one way, it’s actually a very small compliment on the very small bit of good you do by demanding “sources and references”. Some people do need to be reminded of that concept from time to time.

        More importantly, I needed a “laugh for the day” and you oh-so-predictably provided several, as I was sure you would. As in:
        “Apparently, I am quite a threat to you” LOL over that, especially the use of “quite”.
        “You can not cite a single comment of mine where I have discussed the originality of ideas”. LMAO
        “You’re just a Troll, RBT” LMFAO
        (I WILL respond to that last one by saying “You’re a winky stinky dinky Poophead!” (Source for that?—Peanuts maybe?)

        Thank you, Dave—- for living down to my expectations.

      • DaveH

        The usual nonsensical personally attacking comment that we’ve come to expect from Liberal Progressives.
        One would think that they would tire of writing useless adolescent manipulative comments, but then I guess Children do have boundless energy.
        Thank you for posting “Brain”. You are my best asset in the war to wake people to the reality of “compassionate” Liberal Progressives.

    • DaveH

      And you Economics Professor example is a legend, RBT, not a reality:
      http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/socialism.asp

    • Right Brain Thinker

      DaveH is once again cluttering the thread in many places with the same gleeful confidence that anything he says is of any significance, Go away, Dave, and let the rest of us try to carry on adult conversations. As far as this particular comment goes, it must be only you who has a problem because it appears as if everyone else on this site is waiting to hear a response from Chip rather than “do a Dave” and get in the way of discourse.

      Let’s look again at what Chip said. “After some trials and more than a few errors, I hit upon a couple of anecdotes that seemed to resonate with many members of my audiences”. It is obvious that Dave’s reading test scores are likely below average (maybe WAY below). Not to brag, but mine are in the 99th. percentile (or were when I was tested in college—doubt they’ve slipped much), but anyone with even average reading skills should be able to see my point.

      Chip SEEMS to be saying that he is the originator of the “Grade Redistribution” story—-I asked him to clarify that. Why don’t you go over in a corner, Dave, and insert a certain digit in a certain orifice until Chip responds and we can have a real discussion? (and you can again get in our way as seems to be your mission in life)

      Chip also says: “Many years ago, I was hired by a national conservative organization and given an interesting job assignment: travel the country and introduce conservative principles to high school and college students.”

      Once we clear up the grade distribution confusion, I think Chip should tell us about that. As a former high school administrator and one who has spent MANY hours “in college”, I can recall of NO instance where someone “hired by a national conservative organization” would ever have been allowed to “INTRODUCE conservative principles to high school and college students”. “Introduction” was the job of their instructors, who were paid by the SCHOOLS to EDUCATE, not do the indoctrination that Chip’s statement seems to imply. We we sometimes had seminars-panels-guest speakers who did talk on these topics, but always in a fair and balanced way (no FAUX News allowed) Chip? Can you address that also in your reply to the grade distribution thing? DEscribe the circumstances under which you did your “introducing”.

      And Dave, that “digit and orifice” I mentioned could be interpreted in many ways. Just in case you couldn’t figure it out, I was referring to your index finger and your nostril (you choose which ones—same side works for most of us, but you may do it different). Do be careful digging around up there, though. If you pry out something that’s gray, wrinkly, and the size of a pea, it may not be one of those “boogers” that are likely an important part of your diet—don’t just woof it down.

      PS, Dave I’m not talking about legends and you shouldn’t be either—irrelevant. Get one of the Stooges to explain that. to you if they are able to grasp my point..

      • JeffH

        RBT, do you even use your brain at all?

        Either you missed this yesterday or you ignored it but I’ll repeat it just for you because you are the duck!

        In my view your progressive behavior tends to be persistently, almost defiantly counterproductive to the rights Americans traditionally hold dear, and which the progressives themselves insist they revere, in particular, our inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

        “Good” is anything which advances the Progressive Program; and “evil” is anything which threatens it. Accordingly, individuals who hinder the Progressive Program are a danger to mankind’s very essence. They are evil, and must be rehabilitated or eliminated.”
        - Open Wide and Say Moo!

        Since the behavior of American Progressives like you guys is so often inconsistent with the values you (most of them, at least) insist they love as well as any American, I’ve concluded that you must either be prevaricators or self-deluded when it comes to telling us what you are are really up to. Either way, if we want to know what you really think, and what your agenda really is, we’ll just have to allow you your precious “freedom of speech”.

        Don’t need to be a scholar or a college graduate to figure that out, just some good old common sense and the ability to think with both sides of your brain. You really ought to try it sometime.

      • JeffH

        RBT, try to understand your dilema…Progressive like you have been programmed to believe that “good” is evil and “evil” is good. Those of us who hinder or resist the progressive program are a danger to mankind’s very essence. You believe we are evil, and must we be rehabilitated or eliminated.

        I really do understand why we are your enemy.

        The progress sought in Progressivism was to be an ongoing process through which society at large would evolve benefit under the guise of “the state,” administered by specialists, scientists, and the expertise of elitst intellectuals. They also agreed that only government so populated with and
        administered by elitists could be up to the job. Such a government, they argued, has the resources and the expertise could accomplish such an organizational task.
        - Progressives and their “Tug-O-War”
        http://freedomlessons.net/freedom-101/progressives-and-tug-o-war/

        According to the Declaration of Independance, if you’ll recall, rights such as Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness come from nature, are gifts of God, and therefore precede government. According to the progressives something close to the reverse needs be believed. Rights come after governments because “rights” are the results of positive actions taken by those in power.

        In the context of individual freedom progressives seek to roll back, not forward, the hands of progress; they seek regression, not progression.

        If you quack like a progressive and walk like a progressive…then VOILÀ.

        • Jack Worthington

          Well written. I agree. Some excellent books, IMHO, that explain the fallacies of commie/socialism are:

          Our Enemy the State – Albert J. Nock
          Economics in One Lesson – Henry Hazlitt
          The Inflations Crisis and How to Resolve It – H. Hazlitt
          America’s Great Depression – Murray Rothbard
          The Political Thought of Étienne de la Boétie – M. Rothbard
          The Law – Frederic Bastiat
          That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen, an essay by Bastiat

          I have discovered that intelligent folks, who mistakenly hold commie/socialist beliefs, but deny it, when exposed to the economic facts explained in the aforementioned books wherein the fallacies promulgated by commie/socialists are listed, often times recognize the error of their ways to their great benefit and credit.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Ah, another Stooge antes up! If we have seen DaveH, and now JeffH, can WTS(Jay) be far behind? I think I see him, copying some multi-page irrelevancy from some biased website to throw in here and clutter the thread (and Please, I beg you!, no more CO2 comic books!).

        To my surprise, JeffH even says something literate (after showing us how cute and clever he is with the obligatory and meaningless “do you even use your brain at all? and “you are the duck!”, whatever that means. When will the stooges ever learn that “progressives” are impressed by the factual weight of arguments, and any insults that are thrown in because of some childish need to be belligerent or engage in a macho “contest” have no impact on us. They roll right off the “duck’s” backs like so much water.. You want a “macho” contest, Jeff? How about we face off at 200 yards with iron-sighted M-1′s and see how close we can come to shooting each other between the eyes without actually doing it? Think about what I’m really saying there.

        Jeff then goes on to some actual “meat”, beginning with: “In my view….” and ending with …”freedom of speech”. And it IS fairly literate, even if a bit overblown rhetorically and florid of language in spots. Still, it is not bad. Of course, it is ALL opinion. Jeff is surely entitled to his opinion but I will remind all of the old saw—”Everyone is entitled to his own opinions but not his own facts”. Since there is not ONE SINGLE FACT in the whole essay, I will say “OK, Jeff, nice to hear your thoughts” and move on.

        After looking somewhat good in my eyes for a change, Jeff has to ruin it all by making the obligatory insult at the end, saying “….and the ability to think with both sides of your brain. You really ought to try it sometime”. Grow up, Jeff

        JeffH is so eager to destroy me that he quickly returns with another comment and says yet more, begInning with “RBT, try to understand your dilemma…” and ending with “they seek regression, not progression”. I hate to repeat myself but again it’s all just opinion with not a fact to be seen. I will therefore say “OK, Jeff, nice to hear your thoughts” and move on.

        And of course, taking a page from the book of another Stooge, he cites a reference for us! A rather rightish one that presumes to define “progressive” for all of us. And it looks as if he paraphrased some of their material without clear attribution—not a very big sin, though, compared to what Chip may have done. AND HAS ANYONE WONDERED WHY CHIP HAS NOT RESPONDED? DID HE TAKE THE DAY OFF? May I suggest, Jeff, that you might ask progressives to define themselves, rather than pluck some horsepucky off a site that should be really called “horsepuckylessons.com? That’s the way people who are interested in a real conversation rather than just propagandizing would do it.

        Jeff closes with “If you quack like a progressive and walk like a progressive…then VOILÀ”.
        That’s not very insulting—maybe Jeff IS growing up? I’ll counter with “If you play from badly written music with an out-of-tune instrument, it won’t sound good. VIOLA”

      • DaveH

        I don’t know or care whether Chip’s claim is original or not.
        Specifically, Brain (Right), what did I say that you are disputing?
        I see a long useless rant, but nothing to explain why you are addressing my comment.
        Be specific, Brain, if you can muster that with your “99%” level of comprehension.
        Maybe you did have a “Brain” decades ago, but all we see are the useless rants (mostly personal attacks) of a guy who doesn’t display much knowledge or logic.
        The Enterprise could operate freely in the vast space between your ears, Brain (Right).

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Good contribution, Jack

        Let’s see—-7 books by 4 authors? Would it make someone “more right” if they cited 249 books by 311 authors? And how will looking at a rather limited selection of thoughts about “commie/socialism” from a limited number iof authors teach us much about progressivism? Although folks like me are often called “commies” on this site (which I think of as a term of endearment now), we are no more so than is President O’Bama, and we are far more informed about the meanings of all the “isms” than most on this site..

        To paraphrase. I have discovered that seemingly intelligent folks, who mistakenly hold certain conservative beliefs, and loudly proclaim them, when exposed to any facts or arguments that go against their deeply held beliefs, completely fail to recognize the error of their ways, to their great discredit and against their own best interests and those of the nation..

        • Jack Worthington

          Well, Right Brain, I know a leopard by its spots just as I know right from wrong. One must be as wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Theft is theft, lying is lying and murder is murder. Attempts to deceive by clever though illogical arugments are of no use to me. You are a deciever. And you are indeed clever. Good day to you; I know you for the danger you are.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Galt is right about you, Dave, in everything he has ever said. I will waste no more time with you here. I WILL say that I saw you make a few (very few) half -decent comments on other threads recently, but you have regressed today and are just getting in the way.
        You will now be ignored and remain in that status until you go down the yellow brick road with the straw man.

      • JeffH

        RBT, try as you may…you progressives just can’t stand the idea that some people can actually see through you enough to expose you for what you really are… a hopeless and flawed progressive with an abject failure to present anything more substansive than childish ridicule and childish ignorance.

        Beware of progressive trolls like RBT!

      • Jana

        Right Brain,
        Then you haven’t bothered to read Obama’s own books, written by (supposedly) Obama.
        You make that blanket statement, read his books.

      • DaveH

        Like I expected, “Brain” didn’t answer my question. Instead preferring more of his adolescent Personal Attacks.
        Pay close attention, Folks. If you think the rabid disrespectful Liberal Progressives who post on this board are unusual among Liberal Progressives, Think Again. It just stands to reason that Liberal Progressives, who think other peoples’ money is theirs to share as they please, probably aren’t going to adhere to other commonly accepted morals either.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dave, (and probably JeffH as well)

        Not a single word of this comment is meant to be a joke or a putdown in any way.

        I would answer your questions if you really wanted answers, but you don’t. You are only on this site to satisfy some deep-seated need for attention, not to engage in serious discussion. You deliberately say irrelevant, outrageous, and insulting things in the hopes that you will get even more attention. And all too many on this site “enable” you by paying you some attention. You sometimes irrationally attack even those who generally agree with you on some of your saner comments. It appears to have reached the level of an addiction and you are losing touch with reality. I want to apologize to you for the things I’ve said to you and about you because they were counterproductive and only helped to feed your sickness. I DID try to ignore you but you couldn’t stop being you and I’m only human.

        You’re psychologically unbalanced at this point—you need to seek help. And I have said that to more than one person during my time as a school administrator—students, teachers, parents. And I AM qualified to say that to you. I care about you and would like to help you but I can’t—if we were neighbors or coworkers I would like to participate in an intervention with your family and friends that would lead to getting you some help, but I’m not “there” with you—you need to look within and find the strength to help yourself. Talk to someone you trust and seek their advice.

        Not a single word of this comment is meant to be a joke or a putdown in any way.

      • DaveH

        One long personal attack from the guy who claims to be a thinker.
        You are indeed outstanding, RBT, assuming that you’re in 5th Grade.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        RBT: You will now be ignored and remain in that status until you go down the yellow brick road with the straw man.

        Shunning, from a religious zealot? What a surprise!

      • GALT

        Why are you all having such a hard time comprehending that DavidH and his coterie of “producers” and fellow “free market, capitalists” have been trying to tell you?

        DavidH and company are not “progressives”……..therefor they do not support any of the following…….

        1.) favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.
        2. making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.
        3. characterized by such progress, or by continuous improvement.
        4. ( initial capital letter ) of or pertaining to any of the Progressive parties in politics.
        5. going forward or onward; passing successively from one member of a series to the next; proceeding step by step.
        10. a person who is progressive or who favors progress or reform, especially in political matters.

        DavidH and company are not “liberals”……..therefor they do not support any of the following…….

        4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
        5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
        6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
        7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
        8. open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
        9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
        10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.
        11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.

        So when DavidH says: Greed? Who’s “greedier” — The person who acquired the wealth from voluntary transactions, or the person who wants to take the wealth from another by Force? It amazes me how you Liberal Progressives can rationalize your theft.

        How is it possible not to UNDERSTAND his meaning?

        “The Master said….If names are not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language is not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success……..Therefor a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately. What the superior man requires, is just that in his words, there may be nothing incorrect.”

        Confucious 551 -479 B.C.

        After all DavidH has insisted that he knows what the words mean………….as well as other words like pejorative and prejudicial, so everything he says should make perfect sense…….which makes all this confusion very hard to understand…..

        Then again, that he is a “Willfully ignorant, function illiterate” and he is not alone……….also explains everything…….you choose.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Nonsense, Galt! Your above post is a pathetic display of desperation and a admission of forfeit to DaveH. It is filled with fallacious arguments, most discernible and evident;

        Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man)
        Ambiguous Assertion
        Appeal To Pity (Appeal to Sympathy, The Galileo Argument)
        Appeal To Widespread Belief (Bandwagon Argument, Peer Pressure, Appeal To Common Practice)
        Argument By Dismissal
        Argument By Emotive Language (Appeal To The People)
        Argument By Fast Talking
        Argument By Generalization
        Argument By Gibberish (Bafflement)
        Argument By Half Truth (Suppressed Evidence)
        Argument By Laziness (Argument By Uninformed Opinion

        You obviously did not bring your A-game today, Galt; or did you?

      • DaveH

        Simple rebut to a long load:
        The Progressives have been in charge now since the late 19th century.
        In 1900 total Government Spending in the US was 6% of the GDP.
        Currently total Government Spending in the US is 40% of the GDP.
        What has happened to all those Progressive Promises? Are we there yet, Galt? Why Not? Is it just over the next hill?
        The reality is that Progressive Leaders have spoon fed the populace with sweet-sounding words but have delivered bitterness. We’ve been robbed — Something that Progressives specialize in.

        • Jeff

          Do you not think the average person lives a better, longer, healthier, and freer life today than he did in, say, 1900? Has the average person not benefitted from knowing he can buy food in a supermarket that probably won’t kill him or make him sick? Has he not benefitted at work from safety requirements that might keep his arms and digits attached to his body? Has he not benefitted from pollution controls preventing the town’s factory from giving his kids asthma? Has he not benefitted from “regulations” on the roads minimizing accidents due to negligent or drunk drivers? Has he not benefitted from being able to retire at age 65 with a modicum of dignity? And let’s not forget civil rights and women’s rights although those are of no concern to YOU unless you’re Black or a woman.

          Who hasn’t benefitted from any of these things? Mr. Burns from the Simpsons, that’s who.

      • GALT

        It would appear that ole William was right……the simplest explanation is
        the way to go……..”willfully ignorant, functional illiterates”……have no clue
        what the words mean.

        First “functional illiterate” thinks that actually posting the definition of the words
        being used to demonstrate that the person or person using the words does not
        know what they mean…….is logical fallacy, or to be precise 12 logical fallacies.

        In the REAL WORLD…….it’s Q.E.D.

        The second “functional illiterate”, who can not manage a post without using
        these words to “define” those who disagree with him……..has no clue that
        the subject is about the meaning and use of those words………

        In the REAL WORLD…….it’s Q.E.D.

        You are dealing with “willfully ignorant, functional illiterates”….

        Q.E.D. is an initialism of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum, originating from the Greek analogous hóper édei deîxai (ὅπερ ἔδει δεῖξαι), meaning “which had to be demonstrated”. The phrase is traditionally placed in its abbreviated form at the end of a mathematical proof or philosophical argument when what was specified in the enunciation — and in the setting-out — has been exactly restated as the conclusion of the demonstration.[1] The abbreviation thus signals the completion of the proof.

        Of course, it goes without saying that…..I mean this in the “nicest possible way.”

  • http://www.iviewit.tv Eliot Ivan Bernstein

    Yes but if not forced they will not give back because the system demands greed and competition to succeed and measures one by their growth over others, the lessons taught in your class. However, most of PeopleKind are not going to be the A students or the achievers but nonetheless their contributions to the whole are there and often we find the ones who were middle of the road excel later and vice versa for the others. I hope these lessons were taught to very young children who will buy anything but the jump from grades, in a not so professional and wholly opinionated study conducted with no controls, makes for conclusions based on false premises.
    First off, if 1% have all the resources and capital and 99% are slowly becoming impoverished than something is wrong with your system and thus the conclusion is that in such capitalistic system, those that game the system best to become engorged in the billions, can sit by and watch others starve and die for their gluttony and blame it on their lack of not being as good in monetary matters or lesser in life. They horde the food and monies necessary to buy it so that they have more and more and so much more than they need but as they rise in wealth you admire them more, me less. It is like the game of monopoly in your class, where the 1 kid who is usually the banker (sounds like you were the banker), hordes all the money and real estate from the others, until the others just move around the board bored and growing angry that the game is skewed to the most the ruthless one who is usually acting like G-d at that point. This is where monopoly always gets interesting and you should warn your students of this, as after a few rounds round the board in this distressed state, paying taxes and rent at every stop to the fat greedy banker, the other players start to conspire to get rid of the fat greedy one. So they throw the board in rebellion and jump the banker all at once and take back by hook or crook ALL the money back and redistribute it FAIRLY and so everyone has a chance to play again and depending on what a devil the banker was to the others when he controlled determines usually if he is able to return to the next game if he can stand up again from the beating. You will find this toppling of greedy governments and rulers in any highly skewed government, no matter the flavor, when it corrupts against the people and the few let them eat cake until the many hand them their heads, quite literally throughout history.
    So children, play the game of greed and think that you should strive to be better than others no matter the expense to the others and you may succeed for a while in the game of life but you or your children will certainly have your heads handed to you by those you bettered to the point of starving them, not sharing and being better. i would however change classes now to someone who believes that the winner of the game is he who gives the most to he who has the least and when the group of PEOPLEKIND and not MANUNKIND begin to work together as ONE PLANET, ONE RESOURCE, ONE PEOPLE for all, we will achieve NIRVANA. Until then we suffer in this monopoly game of unfairness and greed and destruction of our natural resources and massacre of all of the animals, plants and things and people will actually starve to death today so someone else can have billions more. Time to turn the board upside down and find a new game as this monopoly mentality is leading us to the brink of destroying our planet and people, so kids, stop listening to false logic based on ridiculous comparisons and love all equally for there is no greater and grander thing. Share, help others not as fortunate, take no more than you need and find a way where everyone is eating tonight.

    • Karolyn

      YES!!

      • Cherio

        We still must live under freedom and not forced tyranny. Even people deserve the freedom to be stupid. : )
        Hypocrites are in every corner even Christians – it still does not negate truth or God.
        People are not perfect but free agency to decide ones fate is key to living peacefully. Natural laws govern under natural consequence and common sense.
        One man trying to rule over another has always led to destruction of freedom. Teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves.
        If you desire what another has don’t take it from him learn and work to earn it yourself- if you are honest and hardworking someone will be there to help you, even God.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Cherio, the people spouting Communism/Socialism/Fascism are not Christians and neither are they Jews. Satan cannot produce anything knew so he counterfeits everything and I mean everything including gods for people, emotions, charity, goodness, etc.. In my time I have seen some well dressed “heathens”, and they were as educated and polite and as kind as anyone can be till you got them to talking. Not unlike posters E I B and Karolyn and a few others on this site.

      • DaveH

        Of course Karolyn would agree. What else? No matter how many times I’ve posted the link to this book, which explains why Capitalism enriches a nation, while Socialism does the opposite, chances are that Karolyn didn’t read it. Heaven forbid that she chance the destruction of her flower-child beliefs in a system that has never worked.
        Those who would like to remove their heads from that place, where Leaders and their Crony Capitalists prefer that you keep them, should read this book (especially Part 4, Chapter 7 where it is explained how Government keeps people in Poverty):
        http://library.mises.org/books/Kel%20Kelly/The%20Case%20for%20Legalizing%20Capitalism.pdf

      • Karolyn

        Why do you think I don’t get what you’re talking about? Why are you so dead set against people talking of high spiritual ideals to strive for and to teach? Why are you consistently so negative? Even when I agree with you you have something bad to say about it. (And, yes, there have been times when I’ve agreed.)

      • Karolyn

        The above response is, of course, to Dave. Also, Dave, why do you have to be so antagonistic? I speak of matters that have nothing to do with being a liberal ,or whatever, or pollitics, but have to do with being human. You seem to make a lot of assumptions.

      • DaveH

        You’re so good. I’m so bad. Now put down your Magic Mirror, Karolyn. It’s lying to you.

      • DaveH

        What gets me, Karolyn, is that you’re the one who advocates the Force of Government on other people. I advocate Freedom. As much education as I’ve had, I still would not dream of Forcing my will on others as you and your kind do. Yet, I’m the bad guy?
        You can posture all you want, Karolyn, but those of us who can think know what you really are.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Karlolyn, what you are spouting has a name and it is Pious and Sanctified B S.

      • eddie47d

        First of all Karolyn we have to check Dave’s pulse and see if he “is human”.

      • Karolyn

        Dave – I do not advocate extreme force of government over people. As you may recall, I was quite smitten with Ron Paul when he was running for the nomination. Even though some of his personal beliefs were not the same as mine, I supported much of his platform. There have to be laws, but there are many I do not agree with and rail against. I do not like being put in the same box with extremists, which I am most certainly not. I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian.

      • DaveH

        Don’t insult us by calling yourself Libertarian, Karolyn. You apparently know nothing about Libertarians, because you are far away from a Libertarian.
        You could learn though by reading this (like when pigs fly):
        http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto.pdf

      • Karolyn

        Dave – Here is the test I completed to come to the conclusion that I am a left-leaning libertarian. There are so many variations of left and right and conservative and liberal it isn’t funny.
        http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

        • Jack Worthington

          After reading just a few of hte quesitons on the “Test” I determined that they are skewed and do not offer the option of “none of the above.” As such I do not believe the results of such a survey would convey a level of truth to which I would feel comfortable.

      • Karolyn

        PS Dave – Not everyone fits into your neat little boxes.

      • GALT

        Not to be obvious…….but if everything that DavidH says is true…….he must
        be a “rich man”………..Warren Buffet is a “rich man”……he is not here complaining…..
        in fact he is not complaining at all………so if nothing else is clear……..DavidH certainly
        does not sound or act like a “rich man”………and if he is not a “rich man” then clearly
        he does not possess the intelligence, talent, or ability to become one…….or he would be
        one…….and he would not be here complaining…….

        DavidH will now be compelled to respond with something even more stupid than
        those things which he has already said…….and scream about the “fact” that he is
        not a rich man…….is a personal attack…..

        ( wait for it………………

      • eddie47d

        I am also Libertarian Left Karolyn. I wonder if anyone else will take the test for some will be in the same category. They certainly wouldn’t want to be in the far right authoritarian category. Obama and Romney were both in one of the authoritarian categories but a good Libertarian would have known that.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Karolyn,

        I too came out “left libertarian” (position in the quadrant—2/3 left, 1/3 libertarian). Before any of you self-described “libertarians” go nuts over that, take the test and see where you come out—many on this site that consider themselves libertarians will probably come out authoritarian on this test because the terms used on the test are defined a bit differently than the way we use them on this site. I have seen and taken many of these “tests” and this one is pretty good (none are perfect). The explanations must be looked at closely (the fine print too) to really understand what it tells you.

        Jack,
        You have to understand that the questions on “tests” like these are designed to force you to make some choices. They are not “skewed” in any one direction IN TOTAL and you can’t reject it just because you didn’t “like” the direction of a few questions on the first page out of six pages. Your answers are tallied and compared to what research shows typical beliefs and attitudes to be for the various political philosophies. The more sophisticated tests group and correlate the answers to different questions and factor the degree of correlation into your score.

        There is no right or wrong, and there can’t be “none of the above” since answering that too many times would destroy the “discrimination” in the test, i.e., it wouldn’t have enough data to tell you who you are. That’s why the test will not let you skip questions—if you don’t want to know what the test can tell you, just don’t take it. You can always take the test up to the end and just not hit the “tell me the results” button if you still feel that there is no “truth” to be found—it all goes away and you lose an opportunity to learn about yourself if it does. Trust me—take the test—-it won’t hurt—and tell us your “score”

        May I (gently and without malice) suggest that you feel strongly about the few items you DID see on page one and didn’t “like” them—-you fear what the test may tell you because you think it may “push” you one way, particularly in a direction you don’t want to go? You need not fear this one—it will give you many questions to which you will “strongly agree” and “strongly disagree”. And “strongly agreeing” to a statement that is “conservative” if you’re a conservative equates to “strongly DISagreeing” to a statement that is “liberal”. You “push” YOURSELF to a score allows the test to separate you from others and place you on the political spectrum.

        If you want to see a “skewed” survey—not a “test” like this but one that is supposedly trying to get “the feelings of the electorate so that it can use the data to educate the Congress”, get one from The Heritage Foundation. It has virtually NO answers that do are not very conservative or do not support the views of THF and has no “none of the above”. It is really just a device to propagandize anyone who reads it—I throw them in the trash when I get them (at loeast once every year since I am still on a number of Republican mailing lists).

      • DaveH

        Karolyn,
        I gave you a link to a book by the Father of Libertarianism (Murray Rothbard). Read it. Learn something. The main tenets of Libertarianism is that we have a natural right to control our own bodies and property as long as we don’t trespass on other peoples’ bodies and property. I see very little evidence of that belief in your comments.

      • DaveH

        I looked at your “test”, Karolyn. I couldn’t get past the first question — “If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations”.
        It depends entirely what they mean by “Economic Globalisation”. Is it controlled by Governments? Is it truly Free Market (doubtful)? And the question is immediately loaded by the word “inevitable”. Very few things in life are “inevitable” except death and maybe taxes.
        You can call yourself whatever you want, Karolyn, but that doesn’t make it so.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dave,

        Not a single word of this comment is meant to be a joke or a putdown in any way.

        I would answer your questions if you really wanted answers, but you don’t. You are only on this site to satisfy some deep-seated need for attention, not to engage in serious discussion. You deliberately say irrelevant, outrageous, and insulting things in the hopes that you will get even more attention. And all too many on this site “enable” you by paying you some attention. You sometimes irrationally attack even those who generally agree with you on some of your saner comments. It appears to have reached the level of an addiction and you are losing touch with reality. I want to apologize to you for the things I’ve said to you and about you because they were counterproductive and only helped to feed your sickness. I DID try to ignore you but you couldn’t stop being you and I’m only human.

        You’re psychologically unbalanced at this point—you need to seek help. And I have said that to more than one person during my time as a school administrator—students, teachers, parents. And I AM qualified to say that to you. I care about you and would like to help you but I can’t—if we were neighbors or coworkers I would like to participate in an intervention with your family and friends that would lead to getting you some help, but I’m not “there” with you—you need to look within and find the strength to help yourself. Talk to someone you trust and seek their advice.

      • Karolyn

        Dave – I totally believe that, else why would I be pro-choice and anti Big Pharma? I do not believe in laws protecting us from ourselve; however I do believe in laws protecting us from others. I do espouse some of what you believe. However, as I’ve said before, I am not an extremist and do not fit neatly into your box
        labeled “libertarian.” I guess you do. Good for you. There are variables. I prefer to hear both sides of arguments and pick and choose what most resounds with me.

      • DaveH

        You’re one sick puppy, Thinker.
        Seek help, RBT.

      • DaveH

        But you are an Extremist, Karolyn. Why else would you assume the right to Force your way on other people using Big Government as your Bully Boys?

      • DaveH

        And for those who are too lazy to read the book I linked to for Karolyn — There is NO such thing as a Left Libertarian, or a Right Libertarian. Libertarians are a very Principled group of people who believe, as our Forefathers did, that Big Government is a threat to our Freedom, and that we must always strive to reduce the Force of Monopoly Government in our lives. You are either a Libertarian or you are not.

        • Jeff

          Like vegetarians – except some eat eggs and some drink milk. Some even eat chicken and fish! Some say they’re Libertarians because they want Exxon to be able to do whatever it pleases, but they’re less concerned about freedom of expression or privacy.

      • Karolyn

        Is it not possible Dave that there are people who just cannot strictly adhere to one ideology? Apparently, there is no room in your head for any leeway, and that’s OK; but everyone has a right to their own opinion and should not be thought of as less-than just because their thinking brings them to different conclusions. Really, it must be nice to be so absolutely sure of yourself; and I am not meaning that in a derogatory manner. I know very little that is set in stone.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        DaveH: No matter how many times I’ve posted the link to this book, which explains why Capitalism enriches a nation, while Socialism does the opposite, chances are that Karolyn didn’t read it. Heaven forbid that she chance the destruction of her flower-child beliefs in a system that has never worked.

        Dave, that would be like suggesting to a Mormon or a Jehovah’s witness to read publications printed by sources outside their organization. This is clearly forbidden, and considered anathema; and if you do, you will be shunned, and excommunicated!!!

      • DaveH

        Karolyn says — “Is it not possible Dave that there are people who just cannot strictly adhere to one ideology?”.
        Of course it is, Karolyn. That’s not the issue. The issue is that you are not a Libertarian in any stretch of the imagination.
        I know the PTBs would love to water down the word Libertarian, like they have the words Conservative or Liberal, but that doesn’t mean I have to sit idly by while they Propagandize people like you.
        You see, Karolyn, Libertarians are considerate people — They would never dream of taking control of somebody else’s body or legally-earned property using Government as their Bully Boys. You are Not, Karolyn.

    • Cherio

      But…. Just as you can’t force others to love and do the right thing ( without stealing their liberties)
      We can’t force you two to think the correct and logical way.
      To each his own. Do not force your will upon another person- it is evil.
      Force if any kind is rape upon the mind

    • Nadzieja Batki

      The idea is to keep the Dems/Progs/Leftists talking and they will hang themselves with their own tongues.
      Your first sentence says it all, that you want to force people to do the things that some tribal chieftain (Mayors, Councils,Governors, Senators, Presidents) thinks is important for community. What if people want to work for their own ends? Greed and selfishness are good because these people will strive and study and work to achieve those ends. They won’t sit on their hands and wait for god or some tribal chieftain to drop it into their gullet and then wipe their arse.

      • eddie47d

        Greed and selfishness is the cornerstone of the Corporate world Nadzieja which you fully endorse. Yes you do continually put your tongue in the wringer and it gets sliced and diced each time.!

      • Charlie

        IS? The Bible Truth?

    • DaveH

      Eliot says — “So children, play the game of greed and think that you should strive to be better than others no matter the expense to the others and you may succeed for a while in the game of life but you or your children will certainly have your heads handed to you by those you bettered to the point of starving them, not sharing and being better”.
      Who is Greedier — The person who keeps and spends his own hard-earned money, or the person who envies and takes somebody else’s hard-earned money?
      Heads handed to you? Is that a veiled threat by a typical violent Socialist who thinks of himself as “compassionate” even while stealing money from others and enslaving them?

      • Karolyn

        You have a great talent, Dave, for misreading people’s comments and putting words in their mouths. Why is someone who is all about fairness and sharing be considered envious?

      • DaveH

        Does it do any good to answer that, Karolyn?
        You Share your own money. You Steal other peoples’ money.
        What is “fair” about helping yourself to other peoples’ money, Karolyn? They earned that money by trading their labor , or by creating and selling goods or services to voluntary purchasers. What gives you the right to relieve them of that money using the Force of Government?

      • Karolyn

        I am not relieving anyone of their money by force, Dave. Why don’t you join the growing number of people who do not pay their taxes? I don’t know much about that movement, but if you are so against taxes, why not join? Instead of just talking about injustice, do something.

      • GALT

        Karolyn…….that would take courage or in his case “testicular fortitude” and a bit of
        intelligence along with reading comprehension skills and the ability to follow directions…..

        Clearly he does not possess any of these things……

        However…….he does manage to waste a lot of time……and while it may a bit
        of an effort, he is his own worst enemy………so if you are actually going to waste time
        attempting to have an intelligent discussion………set up a file for him…..
        because……

        1.) Things are true ( in DavidH world ) only when he says them…….
        2.) While most of the time, he really doesn’t say anything….he spends so much
        time here……that he forgets how stupid he really is………and tries to say something.
        3.) He will never agree with anything you say……when you are saying it.

        4.) If you keep a file of the things DavidH actually tries to say……strange things
        will become obvious……..

        A.) Because of 1.) DavidH will actually say things you and others have said.
        B.) Because of 3.) DavidH will contradict himself……( his has no memory skills either. )
        C.) Over a period of time the entries in your file will form a debate between DavidH
        and DavidH……….because over a period of time…..not very long……David will
        have contradicted himself………again and again

        Now granted………David is too stupid to know how stupid he really is……so
        this EVIDENCE will probably not phase him………but it will have an effect on others..

        Oh this will work for the other members of his “coterie”……..DavidH will now be
        compelled respond with his usual whining……..wait for it……….

      • DaveH

        Time to go play in your sandbox, Galt. Your grammatically-poor, disjointed, and mostly personally attacking comments mean nothing to me. I do enjoy the fact, though, that yet another Liberal Progressive exposes himself to all the readers who may not have known just how intellectually and morally bankrupt you guys are.

      • JeffH

        Dave H, intellectual morons is my take on ‘em…

      • GALT

        Wow….he held out for 18 hours………

        Ain’t gonna get any better buddy……..and I haven’t even started yet…….

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Karolyn, DaveH never said he is against paying taxes. He advocates for a consumption tax, you may want to re-read his posts. It appears both you and reverend Galt suffer from reading comprehension…and you may both be “functionally illiterate”…just an observation.

      • Karolyn

        Never let an opportunity to throw in a derogatory remark go to waste. Right Jay? Why?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Well, are you or are not, “functionally illiterate”, Karolyn?

      • DaveH

        No Jay. I don’t advocate a consumption tax.
        I advocate what has been called a Head Tax (don’t like that phrase though) which involves every adult paying the Same Dollar Amount. We all get Equal Treatment Under the Law, correct? So why should some of us pay differently than others?
        Ideally, every Government Service that could be should be assigned a User Fee.
        And then those that couldn’t easily be assigned a User Fee would be funded by the Head Tax.
        Why wouldn’t that work? Because the Leaders know that people would insist on MUCH Smaller Government if they actually had to pay for their own services.
        Why is it that the people can be so easily stirred against the threat of Monopoly in the Private Sector, but then so easily turn a Blind Eye to the Monopoly of Government?

      • DaveH

        Galt says — “and I haven’t even started yet”.
        On what, Galt? Your name-calling and other personal attacks?
        I am so awed by the level of your adolescent manipulative attacks. I think my 12-year old Grandson might be able to learn from you.

      • GALT

        Wow……The functional illiterate used the word:FACT

        Why does he keep using words he doesn’t understand?

    • Charlie

      Do you have The Holy Bible to share??? King Jesus Christ said at Matthew 4:4 “Man does not live by bread alone”…… Meanwhile……………..
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      Charlie Freedom

  • http://pavadasa.wordpress.com pavamana

    There is an ancient principle of spiritual communism that has long since been forgotten. Everything belongs to God, the Supreme Being. He has provided more than enough for everyone. If something doesn’t belong to you, but the person who owns it is willing to share it with you, you have to acknowledge that and appreciate it. If you don’t recognize the real proprietor, then you are a thief. We depend upon certain conditions such as rain, heat, etc., which are not under our control. The ingredients for life belong to the Creator, and He can share them or remove them at His will. He can facilitate bounty or create famine. If we simply recognize His generosity and kindness, and work with the understanding that we are His servants, we can have whatever we need by His grace. If we do not recognize His existence, but rather deny it and teach atheism in our schools, we find that the climate will make it very hard to grow food. No factory in the world can create food, and you can’t eat nuts and bolts. Now, you can say, “Well, we don’t need rain. We can just build dams and aqueducts and get water.” Until there’s no water to fill the dams. If you go to Hoover Dam, you see how low the water level is. We’re in the midst of a nationwide drought. What are you going to do? Our nation was built with a firm belief in God, and it was an integral part of the governing principles they established. Modern communism is just an atheist’s utopian dream. Without recognizing God, the communist idea is that everyone should work for the state, not for God. And we see what kind of struggles there were in the former Soviet Union. Communism is now here in the US, where we will all be forced to serve the State, and there’s no education about God at all, rather we are taught that we are a bag of chemicals brought about by random chance and a big bang. We need to get back to the real principles of God-consciousness which were the foundation of our country. A country full of atheists is not going to find prosperity, but calamity. Like a bunch of pirates, we steal the booty and in the process of distributing the wealth, the pirates worry that the captain won’t divide it “fairly”. We take the bounty of God, claim it as our own, and like the pirates we talk about “equality” and “fairness”. As Sons and Daughters of our Father, we can share what He has given us, and since it belongs to Him, we can’t claim anything ourselves. With this understanding, there will be prosperity for all.

    • Karolyn

      You are going on the claim that all atheists are greedy and self-absorbed. That is simply untrue. Spirituality is more important than belief in one “Father”. Look at all the greedy Christians with no contact with their own spirituality and what is really important. Everything belongs to everybody, for we are all part of God/Universal Intelligence. We are all connected. There is enough for everyone in this abundant Universe. There’s just to much of “me-me-mine.” Black Friday riots are evidence of that.

      • Cherio

        We still must live under freedom and not forced tyranny. Even people deserve the freedom to be stupid. : )
        Hypocrites are in every corner even Christians – it still does not negate truth or God.
        People are not perfect but free agency to decide ones fate is key to living peacefully. Natural laws govern under natural consequence and common sense.
        One man trying to rule over another has always led to destruction of freedom. Teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves.
        If you desire what another has don’t take it from him learn and work to earn it yourself- if you are honest and hardworking someone will be there to help you, even God.

      • DaveH

        Karolyn says — “Look at all the greedy Christians”.
        Where? Could you explain what makes them Greedy, Karolyn?

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        What you say is true. Saying your a Christian and living a Christian life are far apart. I know some atheists who live a Christian life and some “Christians” who live letcherous lives. The residual benefit to being a, hopefully practicing, Christian comes after death in the flesh, the second life. Man is a three part being, like the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Man consists of body, soul and spirit. The soul, ghost, is going wherever the spirit decides, heaven or hell.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Karolyn, everything does not belong to everybody contrary to what you say.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Karolyn said in part:

        “Look at all the greedy Christians with no contact with their own spirituality and what is really important. Everything belongs to everybody, for we are all part of God/Universal Intelligence. We are all connected. There is enough for everyone in this abundant Universe. There’s just to much of “me-me-mine.”

        I agree wholeheartedly with what Karolyn said. I will point out to Dave that “no contact with their own spirituality and what is really important” is what is called a “subordinate clause” in the world of the literate and IS important to the meaning—it is a WHOLE SENTENCE, Dave, and must be viewed as a whole if you want to see what it means. So, what she is saying is “A look at those who have no contact with their own spirituality and don’t know what is really important is where we should look for greedy Christians”. Go get the “Grammar for Dummies” book, Dave. Get “Thinking for Dummies” too while you’re there.

        Nadzieja Batki says: “Karolyn, everything does not belong to everybody contrary to what you say”. That’s NOT what she said, NB. Read it again. You might have to pay attention to that thing called “context” if you want to understand. Karolyn’s thought was far deeper than your interpretation (and I agree with her there too).

      • Karolyn

        Cherio – You said the magic word – “TEACH!”

      • DaveH

        I asked a simple question, Brain (hardly) —
        Karolyn said — “Look at all the greedy Christians”.
        I said — “Where? Could you explain what makes them Greedy, Karolyn?”.

        As one would expect, neither one of you could answer that simple question. Instead I get the usual personal attack from the self-labeled Brain. What is intelligent about behaving like a 13-year old?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dave,

        Not a single word of this comment is meant to be a joke or a putdown in any way.

        I would answer your questions if you really wanted answers, but you don’t. You are only on this site to satisfy some deep-seated need for attention, not to engage in serious discussion. You deliberately say irrelevant, outrageous, and insulting things in the hopes that you will get even more attention. And all too many on this site “enable” you by paying you some attention. You sometimes irrationally attack even those who generally agree with you on some of your saner comments. It appears to have reached the level of an addiction and you are losing touch with reality. I want to apologize to you for the things I’ve said to you and about you because they were counterproductive and only helped to feed your sickness. I DID try to ignore you but you couldn’t stop being you and I’m only human.

        You’re psychologically unbalanced at this point—you need to seek help. And I have said that to more than one person during my time as a school administrator—students, teachers, parents. And I AM qualified to say that to you. I care about you and would like to help you but I can’t—if we were neighbors or coworkers I would like to participate in an intervention with your family and friends that would lead to getting you some help, but I’m not “there” with you—you need to look within and find the strength to help yourself. Talk to someone you trust and seek their advice.

      • Charlie

        Karolyn,,,
        Check out the number of “”"Curses”"” on yourself,,, curses are in The Bible,,, research it………ALL PEOPLE HAVE SOME… Unless you have The Salvation of King Jesus Christ and repent daily or hourly as needed……………..

      • DaveH

        Thank you, RBT, for yet another exposure of your childlike behavior.
        Apparently I must be influencing a lot of people to receive such a concentrated effort by you adolescent Liberal Progressives to denigrate me. But the funny thing is that the more you try, the more the Readers can see just how useless you guys are.
        I can’t help but wonder if you’re really just shilling for some Conservative think tanks who are paying you to make Liberal Progressives look bad. If that is the case, I must congratulate you, Thinker, because you are doing a sterling job.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dave,

        Not a single word of this comment is meant to be a joke or a putdown in any way.

        I would answer your questions if you really wanted answers, but you don’t. You are only on this site to satisfy some deep-seated need for attention, not to engage in serious discussion. You deliberately say irrelevant, outrageous, and insulting things in the hopes that you will get even more attention. And all too many on this site “enable” you by paying you some attention. You sometimes irrationally attack even those who generally agree with you on some of your saner comments. It appears to have reached the level of an addiction and you are losing touch with reality. I want to apologize to you for the things I’ve said to you and about you because they were counterproductive and only helped to feed your sickness. I DID try to ignore you but you couldn’t stop being you and I’m only human.

        You’re psychologically unbalanced at this point—you need to seek help. And I have said that to more than one person during my time as a school administrator—students, teachers, parents. And I AM qualified to say that to you. I care about you and would like to help you but I can’t—if we were neighbors or coworkers I would like to participate in an intervention with your family and friends that would lead to getting you some help, but I’m not “there” with you—you need to look within and find the strength to help yourself. Talk to someone you trust and seek their advice.

      • DaveH

        What kind of sick puppy must it take to post the same personally attacking comment in 4 different places on this board?
        This is a guy who wants to make your choices, Folks. Pay heed.

      • JeffH

        DaveH, the current bunch are all accredited intellecual morons, multiple time Darwin Award winners and life members of the Progressive Troll Patrol.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        JeffH, and they are all expert in cyber-bullying. Notice how they all gang-up and swarm a blogger for having the audacity to express his opinion that just happens to be contrary to their own. They are the most intolerant bunch of bigots i have ever seen, they surpass even the religious-fanatics(Taliban) in their intolerance and bigotry, not to mention “bullying”!

      • JeffH

        Jay, absolutely so. They obviously see Dave as their biggest adversary, the one who threatens the very core of their flawed ideologies. It’s what they do and it’s all they have in their arsenal to battle sound logic. How about their penchant for “conspiracies”. If I remember right, liberal progressives laugh at and besmirch conspiracies. Some even imagine(conpiracy?) that Dave is somehow posting comments under another name. Imagine that?

        Like I said, they’re just a pack of intellectual morons progressive trolls. You don’t argue with them, you just expose them…eventually they’ll leave.

      • DaveH

        Good one, Jay — The Liberal Progressive Taliban. Very accurate. Very descriptive.

      • eddie47d

        We’ve exposed you Jeff H many times yet you are still here! LOL!! Dave H is now saying the Taliban are religious fanatics. Heck I’ve said that years ago. They are the Conservative right wingers of Afghanistan. No different than Conservatives who attempt to force their religious indoctrination on US citizens. Remember the guns and Bible bit well the Taliban have their guns and Koran to force feed the populace!

  • Cherio

    Ha- and I guess government is the least greedy of them all! We can all point fingers and blame but you can’t police morality in all issues. Directly harming someone through action is worthy of judgement and punishment. I would hardly say we can fully punish simple so-called greed. Has Bill Gates evened the playing field by sharing his wealth equally- how many of us could be debt free if he would just share with us selfish bottom dwellers- middle class? Instead he chooses where to invest or share the wealth- he is so greedy cause he didn’t give me any greenbacks when I obviously desire and deserve it…
    Who makes the laws around here? Who defines common sense?
    People are hurting- because of big greedy bully govt. and because of poor choices, hardships in life and plain unfairness. It is not anyone’s job or purpose in life to level the playing field through forced equalization. If my neighbor has only one leg who dares say I should give him one of mine are we then equal?
    Let God and the individual decide what should be given- not a third party ” equality and greed czar”

    • eddie47d

      Cherio is as clueless as a blind man in a snowstorm. It was Mortgage fraud and mostly from private companies that blew up the housing market. So whether government helped out doesn’t tell the whole story. It was Banksters who approved those loans and then dumped them on the government to cover their ponzi scheme. The government became gullible victims of those private Banksters too. Your failure to mention those greedy bully Corporates leaves me wondering about your integrity.

  • http://iviewit.wordpress.com/ iviewit

    Now as for the false logic you are teaching children about Thanksgiving, first teach them the real meaning of Thanksgiving, ya know the holiday we stole from the Indians and then stole their land, extincted their peoples, left them to rot in concentration camps known as reservations at the time and raped and pillaged the once beautiful land they had maintained in perfect natural balance to that point. Now after committing genocide, which began with the pilgrims when they tried to convert the Indians to slaves at Plymouth Rock and the Indians revolted savagely to our savage acts against them and our attempt to own them and their spirits and the whole, which they believed could not be owned or controlled. So after murdering them and raping their women and children, with the stolen land we began our great capitalistic system that in the short few hundred years has led to more damage and destruction of our planet than in all time before from any uncivilized animal or peoples. We began to destroy the forests, the oceans, the rivers, we began paving the earth from point a-z tearing away nature and g-d’s works to have more more more, with no thought to the environment or those inhabiting them. So for the rest of what we did I will share some poems with you that may help your students see where we are going with this @ http://iviewit.tv/inventor/The%20Dinosaur%20Story%20Truth.htm
    Next year tell the class that if they really want to be Thankful on Thanksgiving they should go vegetarian, save a turkey and send the saving to a reservation aka concentration camp to help feed some of those we stole everything from and left them to rot in your hell of ambitions and greed is good.

    • DaveH

      For those who would like the Non-Court-Historian view of History from the American Colonies in the 17th century to the revolution:
      http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Vol_2.pdf

      • KG

        More advice from a man who advocated “Fascism” to save Europe from “communism”.

      • JeffH

        KG, like so many other liberal progressives your strongest asset is your complete ignorance. No matter how you read it you are unable to grasp the message of Von Mises comments about fascism…in particular the economics of fascism.

        You’re desperatley trying to compare apples to oranges, but that is what ignorant liberal progressives do.

        • Jack Worthington

          Good for you JeffH. You evidence thinking outside the box of commie/socialism obummanista brainwashing; you did not drink the criminal compote/”kool aid” of the obumma, Pelosi, Holdler, Feinstein, Boxer, Waters, Axelrod, Bill Mahar, Harry Reid cadre. You seem to have seen through the lies of Leslie Marshall, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and others in the media and entertainment of such ilk.

      • JeffH

        Jack Worthington, thanks. I’ve always had great respect for the ideals of our founding fathers, the Constitution and the Declaration. My blood runs red, white and blue…but I really came alive prior to the election in 2008 and since then I discovered this website, Personal Liberty Digest & their staff, along with a host of wonderfully informed participants.

        Oh, forgot to mention the life’s education I’ve gained living in California for 63 years…”The ends justify the means”. Priceless!

        • Jack Worthington

          heh, heh, heh…yeah, I grew up in Reedley, Kalifornia and then moved away to Orygun and then after some 40 years returned to Reedley a year ago. Kalifornia is a commie/socialist potty house, just as is Orygun. It is very disappointing but it is also a challenge. Education is very important, especially as regards the Austrian School Economics, logic/reasoning, fiat currency/credit and the fallacies of commie/socialism. The dreary thing is that even if there were an epiphany and people made a change, the correction would last perhaps two generations, after which the same ol’ potty house of loot A to satisfy B scheme would reassert itself. The sad thing is that people like the steal from Peter to pay Paul game, whether they recognize it or not. IMHO, the fiat currency/credit system is the root cause of our debacle, aside from the evil in minds of men who created it. Ignorance is bliss but leads to the abyss.

      • DaveH

        KG says — “More advice from a man who advocated “Fascism” to save Europe from “communism””.
        Where did I say that, KG, you lying slanderer?
        And Hitler wasn’t a Fascist, he was a Socialist. I know, you will construe that to mean I advocate Fascism. But it’s not my fault your reading comprehension is so poor, KG.
        http://mises.org/daily/1937

      • JeffH

        Jack, it’s a small world sometimes…I moved to Fresno in 2008.
        We’re practically neighbors.

        I see that the envirowackos weren’t too happy about the Carmelita rock quarry in your area off of 180 getting their permit approved and I guess they’ve decided to sue and try to get it blocked.

        • Jeff

          And why are they wackos? Because they think it’s important to consider ecological consequences or just because Rush says so? And is every woman who refuses to sleep with you a feminazi, too? Go back to reading Mein Kampf for pleasure.

          • Jack Worthington

            Hey Jeff, I’m at 576 W. Carob, Apt. 102, 5034213865. I have mixed feeling about CMEX and its desire to mine Jesse Morrow Mt. I have friends who opposed CMEX mining the mountain on the grounds of Valley Fever, wear on roads, cuttng of iconic near 100 year old Palm Trees lining Reed Avenue in front of Reedley College, the additonal use of a water resource that is already stretched and Indian burial ground disturbances, all of which give me pause. On the other hand, I appreciate the need for a quary, rock, aggregate and jobs. On the other hand I don’t like government interfering in the market. The Carmelita project seems a reasonable alternatives as there are a few other quarries along the Kings River in that same zone and when the quarry is done, a new lake could fill it and become a nice value. jackw97224@yahoo.com

      • KG

        Mises, Friedman, and Hayek were the three economists who went to Chile to help the “good dictator” Mr. Pinochet. The economist couldn’t exist in a free economy. Especially a Democratic one.

      • DaveH

        KG says — “Mises, Friedman, and Hayek were the three economists who went to Chile to help the “good dictator” Mr. Pinochet”.
        That would have been quite a feat for Ludwig Von Mises, KG, since Pinochet took control on September 11, 1973, and Ludwig died on October 10, 1973 at the age of 92.
        I pronounce you to be a liar, KG. I know, what’s new.

      • DaveH

        Pinochet and the evils of Communism:
        http://archive.mises.org/006032/

      • DaveH
      • KG

        Thank you. I got some bad information. I’ll admit that “…Mistakes were made.”

        However, you other “Misies” link has actually convinced me of the underlying “fascist” leanings that Libertarians exhibit without being aware of it. Think about that.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Nice bluffing, KG. Well, when that’s all you have…

      • DaveH

        Apparently, KG, you haven’t got the slightest clue what the word Fascist means.
        Libertarians are the Polar Opposite of Fascists.
        If you’d quit being an ignorant Unionist and actually take the time to learn something, you would know that.
        Try this:
        http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard12.html

      • KG

        DaveH says: “Libertarians are the Polar Opposite of Fascists.”

        Sorta like “Communism is the polar opposite of Nazi-ism”

        Ever hear of a french philosopher named Jacques Derrida? He was big around when Seinfeld was popular. It was the “…philosophy about nothing.” Anyway, he became famous for supporting the “subordinated” half’s of Dualistic thinking. All dualities contain a “trace” of the opposite, no matter how differentiated they are. And when you read Misies within that context, you almost can hear his heels click on his black riding boots, while his right arm automaticly extends – like Dr. Strangelove!

        It’s like the Atheist who says “…thank G-D i’m an Atheist.”

      • eddie47d

        If you listen to Dave H enough you’ve realized that he is always rewriting history and running from the truth about Fascism. Nazi’s were Fascists and Fascists are quite often Corporatists. Fascists are extreme right while Communism is extreme left.

    • Charlie

      Heathen? ,what tribe were you born into? What does The Bible say about American Indians ? Meanwhile ……….
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      Charlie Freedom

      • Karolyn

        Seriously, Charlie, do you read anything else to balance your thinking?

      • Charlie

        King Jesus was Perfect, Balanced and all ,what other book do We need? Maybe a repair manual for your car?

        • Jeff

          Can’t you just pray it better?

      • Charlie

        Jeff,,,
        As a matter of facts , “”Some” Christians can Pray for their car maintenance and fuel mileage and “Their” car will last longer with good mileage… BUT,,, you can’t ,because you are NOT a True Christian…………..

  • Mark

    There are legitimate differences between capitalist systems and socialist systems, but at the same time, there are clear similarities between the two as well. Jeremy, I fear that you cloud the issue by pointing to those similarities as if that proves that we are already contributing (and forced to do so) in a communist arrangement. The truth is that both systems (communist and capitalist) have need of legitimate governmental services such as Fire, Police, and other infrastructure (water/sewer) and the requisite taxation necessary to support those systems.

    The main difference between the capitalist and socialist systems is not found in being forced to pay taxes in support of legitimate services that require communal cooperation (such as fire and police), but in being forced to pay taxes into the system in order to support those who do little to nothing to support themselves. Taxes that go to giving a cell phone to welfare recipients is a classic example. Fire and Police taxes are not.

    • DaveH

      Oh how the Overton Window has shifted.
      No man has a right to ride on any other man’s shoulders, no matter how needy. The morally ideal Society (and also the most Prosperous) would result from a voluntary society where Government’s only role would to protect people from the Force of others. To use Government to Force people to pay for services they neither need nor desire is just plain theft, no matter how we might try to sugar-coat it. And it is a well established fact that Government services are rarely performed as frugally and efficiently as those same services would have been performed in the Private Sector. Every dollar that Government takes from us, to feather their own nests, to buy votes, would have been used much more wisely in the Private Sector, thus producing a much more robust economy that would enable all who wanted to work to have a good life.
      I would think by now, with Government growing 7 times larger than in 1900, one Great Depression in which Government Meddling became the norm, and the currently bad economy with enormous Government Meddling, that people would start to wake up to the historically proven fact that Big Government is Not the Solution — Big Government is the Problem.

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        For every counterfeit FRN the government takes in, 60 to 70 cents of is used to pay the government for it’s “services”. 30 to 40 cents “might” be used for whatever some politician might of said it would.

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        Can you name just ONE government “service” that is not running in the red, costing more than what some snake oil salesmen said it would?

      • Karolyn

        Guess what Dave? I agree with you! :-)

      • Charlie

        DaveH,..
        Mostly right on truth,,,BUT,,,how are We going to put the so called government back into The Constitution and The Bible??? Meanwhile ………….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

    • Nadzieja Batki

      What was originally voluntary response of people to aid each other when raids were made by human predators and fires occurring became permanent agents. Now we are supporting them whether there is crime or fires. We are paying for the convenience of not having the time or inclination to voluntarily gather together to aid each other and now by law we are not allowed to participate.

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    What had happened is the message from the bible was becoming more prevelant. That is, liberty is a gift from God to human being. In 1611 King James contracted 52 men, amongst the William Shakepeare, all the best scholars available to translate the scriptures into english. The Bible contains 66 books written by 40 authors over a period of 1,400 years. They had their work cut out for them. Bibles became available and a cry for liberty rang out. The Huguenots, French protestants, were driven for France on up to Holland. The pilgrims, which largely Huguenots, in their hunger for liberty came to America’s shores. They didn’t plan on landing at Plymouth Rock but that’s where they wound up. At first they set up a communist style government and fifty percent of the died that first winter. Next they set a free market system. Every man could keep whatever made and sell it for whatever he could get. That next winter everyone enjoyed an abundance unheard of in Europe. The Pilgrims and Indians shared the first Thanksgiving meal. Chiristianity and the bible were given to Indians as well. You probably know the rest of the story, how America was founded on Christian principles. Your living in an America that voted to through God and liberty out. Don’t forget John 3:16. When that day comes there will be a thanksgiving meal beyond our wildest imaginations. and it’s coming soon.

    • Charlie

      John 3:5 and John 3:16, AND John 3:22,23,,, NOTHING less… Baptism IS salvation ,,,see
      1 Peter 3:21… Remember Peter? he has The Keys to The Kingdom ,,,see Matthew 16:19..
      Acts 2:38 IS the only single verse that gives salvation and the Gift of The Holy Spirit…
      Acts 2:38 is one of the Keys to The Kingdom of King Jesus Christ…………
      IF? it ain’t right PER The Book ,,,IT AIN’T RIGHT!!! PER THE BOOK……………..

      Charlie Freedom

  • Cherio

    Free will to share on your own merits and choice is called Consecration.
    Forced to share through manipulation and government is theft and Communism.
    One is from God- freedom to choose thought and actions the other is pure evil in its very nature.

    Those seeking freedom from a powerful freedom destroying ruler did not come to theses shores to enslave others as they had been. History has been spun to make the colonists look bad. Those that eventually pillaged, destroyed and came to power do not represent those who were running from slavery to seek freedom.
    Those led by greed and lust for power are the same that are driven today.
    People are inherently good- those that destroyed the native Americans are the same that destroy today… they use power, force and the arm of government to do their will.

    Government has always been the device to control and enslave the masses. We need to think for ourselves people and stop being divided and conquered. Stop thinking in groups but think as individual human beings. We are going after each other instead of the few who pull the strings.

    People in every country are inherently good- the few who wish to rule and conquer are those who deserve the blame. The few easily hide their actions behind palace walls, control and the rule of law.

    Should we not “seek first to understand then to be understood”…..

  • http://www.facebook.com/elton.robb Elton Robb

    I was told that the Pilgrims tried communism, and now I see the proof that they did. I get the feeling that most of us here get it.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      They stopped Communism really fast after it killed and left them a remnant.

    • eddie47d

      That is another twisted myth because communism didn’t even exist and nothing more than a useful boogeyman from the extreme right today. They died from cold and hunger in the dead of winter not communism. Once more immigrants came cities and transportation were built then seed crops could be planted thus food could be stored for the winter months. Even the Natives lived communally and survived for thousands of years.

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      The pilgrims were given designated pieces of land to work things to make etc. Upon completion, they would bring their wares to the collectives warehouse. At that point the people were given what the governor saw fit to give them. Sluggards recieved the same return as the producers. The only motive that people have to do anythingis profit. Take away the possibility to get a profit and that society dies. That’s what happened to the Pilgrims. This was communism, a planned communal society but lacked a gulag to punish the people. They punished themselves by not producing and they didn’t produce because they had no profit motive.

      • eddie47d

        Survival itself can be a powerful profit motive. They didn’t come all the way to this land to die or give up. There were many other factors in why some passed on and it wasn’t communism.

  • John811c

    What thanksgiving is about is the GIVING of thanks to god for the abundace he provides and so we have a communal dinner of friends and family to practice the art of GIVING of oneself and abundance… in this communal dinner many bring a dish others contribute their labor to prepartion of the meal but all of this is done to Honor GOD and to thank him for the abundance he has provided …so thank you God for your gifts and help this year

  • bob

    dont forget that 4 generations later the pilgrams gave blankets to the Native Americans who show them how to survivet in the elements, the blanks where full of small pocks.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      What disease did the “indians” give to the Pilgrims? Read some basic microbiology as your knowledge is sorely lacking in some areas.

      • eddie47d

        Please enlighten us Nadzieja? its possible but I haven’t heard of any diseases the natives inflicted on the newcomers.

        • Samuel Clemens

          Syphilous

      • eddie47d

        Syphilis was first “discovered” in 1495 in Europe and their are many forms of it. Like Herpes it is not always sexual. Some suggest that European syphilis and that found in Mexico during the early exploration days melded into a new form.

    • Charlie

      Fire Water,,, Sun rays,,, water washing ,will kill most bugs…. Why didn’t the Indians know that ??? America was given to the pale face … The pale face,,, God’s chosen people, see
      1 Chronicles 16:13……………Meanwhile…………
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      Charlie Freedom

      • Karolyn

        The “paleface” God’s chosen people????? Talk about arrogant! ALL are “God’s” chosen people!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Karolyn, you say anything to make God be a liar.

      • Karolyn

        Nadzieja – Thanks for the inanity to make me laugh! :-)

      • Charlie

        Book facts are in The Bible,,,prove The Bible wrong,,,you , nor any one else can prove The Bible wrong… It reads as you have been duped deceived and deluded by the Satanic
        powers that be… Meanwhile…………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation …

        Charlie Freedom

      • Karolyn

        And Charlie neither can you prove the Bible right.

      • Jana

        Karolyn,
        Yes we can. We can go back to the Massaradic texts. These are texts that keep the Bible pure. Translations of the Bible can get distorted. This is one reason why I stick to the KJV as I have invested in my tools to be able to go back to the original words and translate them properly. The Strongs Concordance is one of the great great tools for that.

        Many things in the Old Testament has and is coming to pass each and every day. Some chapters in Ezekiel are like reading todays newspaper.
        Sometimes when we get into the translations, they are literal instead of being translated so it makes one wonder, but then we go back to the Greek or Hebrew, or Aramaic and translate it from that, we have the real and total meaning. You said you gave up Christianity 5 years ago. This makes me wonder if you ever knew real Christianity in the first place. You may have been indoctrinated in the traditions of man, not what our Heavenly Father actually said.

      • Karolyn

        Jana – I could never balance being Christian with being anti-gay and many other issues that I am not against. I also got tired of being fearful of being “bad” and listening to the “wrong” people or following the “wrong” teachers. I cannot in good conscience believe in heaven and hell. Once I read “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch it sealed the deal. He presented a God i could believe in. I am a pretty logical person, and it appealed to my sense of logic and fairness. among othethings.

      • Charlie

        Karolyn,,,
        When one harmonizes “Scriptures” ,,,The Bible proves itself according to Psalm 119:160…

      • Charlie

        Jana,,,
        Read Obadiah,,,that’s what is being set up right now , in the state of Israel…

      • DaveH

        Karolyn says — “I am a pretty logical person, and it appealed to my sense of logic and fairness”.
        Balderdash. If you were either, Karolyn, you wouldn’t even dream of allying yourself with Liberal Progressives.

      • oh oh

        Malachai isn’t a bad indicator, either.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Karolyn: And Charlie neither can you prove the Bible right.

        And this, from a women who claims Catholicism is just another off-shoot of Christianity, and therefore, Catholics are Christian. She also claims to be an expert in “religion”, having taken a course in “religion” in a socialist-based, education environment.

  • Norm

    Some right-wing pundits refer to Barack Obama as a socialist or communist. This stems from an exaggeration of his real beliefs, which involve increased government regulation of our troubled financial markets, increased taxes of the wealthiest Americans and guarantees of quality health care to all Americans.
    While these policies do involve government involvement in economic activity, they do not meet the traditional understanding of socialism or communism because they do not involve state ownership of most means of production.

    Barack Obama has repeatedly stated that the wealthy need to pay more in taxes (higher rate) than the middle class. It could be argued that this is a form of class warfare pitting the middle class against the upper class.
    Class warfare is a very vague term. Complaining about the increasing plight and contraction of the middle class is not a feature of Marxist criticism. Marx viewed the middle-classes (bourgeois) as in coalition with older aristocratic and privileged classes against the producers (workers).
    Also Marxism requires allegiance to some form of dialectical materialist understanding of history. In this view all society is in a struggle for control of the social surplus and its use. This conflict cannot be ended until a revolution brings those who produce the material needs of society into control of that society. This is why reforms that merely reinforce capitalist divisions of society into laborers, owners, and managers cannot be viewed as Marxist.

    • JeffH

      Normy, he’s a hybred communist!

    • Nadzieja Batki

      O will never ever tell you what he is, but if you have sense you can pinpoint him to being a hybrid of Communist/Marxist-Engells/Fascist and a Moslem for good measure. And yes all this can exist in one man.

      • Norm

        Batik
        Do you have some proof or data or facts to back your wild rantings?
        It’s amazing what hate can cause people to all alledge. And from you a Jew, whose brothers have endured such hatred, it is very puzzling.

      • eddie47d

        Most everything is puzzling coming from the mouths of these Orwellian folks Norm

      • DaveH

        Why do you hate Nadzieja so much, Norm?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Because she doesn’t agree with him, Dave!

    • DaveH

      Norm says — “This stems from an exaggeration of his real beliefs, which involve increased government regulation of our troubled financial markets, increased taxes of the wealthiest Americans and guarantees of quality health care to all Americans”.
      Who knows what his real beliefs are, Norm? The man is a chronic liar.
      And it’s obvious, Norm, that you don’t have a clue about the Real nature of regulations. They aren’t to protect the people. They are to protect the Politicians and their Crony Capitalists. You could read this book and learn some reality:
      http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Ripoff-Business-Government/dp/0471789070
      But then, you don’t want to learn anything do you, Norm?

      Guarantees of quality health care to all Americans? Pass that doobie this way, Norm. Don’t be selfish.
      With the direct costs of the regulators (salaries, etc.) and the indirect costs of their productivity-stifling meddling, the only way that Health Care costs can go is UP. Those higher costs will go hand in hand with shortages of life-saving drugs and equipment, which will lead to lesser quality of Health Care, NOT greater quality.

      Increased taxes on the Wealthy? But the wealthy invest a large share of their money in Productivity-enhancing capital goods which leads to more production and cheaper goods for the rest of us, while the Government just uses that money to consume wealth, creating no new wealth. The inevitable result of that will be a collapse of our economy when they run out of other peoples’ money.

      Well, at least you’re more Blissful than I am, Norm.

      • Jeff

        Really Dave? You expect everyone to accept the conclusions of this right wing nonentity?

        http://timothypcarney.blogspot.com/

        So, all regulations are designed to protect politicians and not the public? All regulations? Food safety regulations? Worker safety regulations? Environmental regulations? Securities and Banking Regulations from 1933 and 1934? They weren’t put in place due to a perceived weakness in the market place? They were put there just to feather some politician’s nest? Perhaps you could enlighten us with an example or 2 from Mr. Carney’s masterpiece.

      • DaveH

        Normal people will read the book, Jeff. Abnormal zealots will condemn it before reading it.
        There are many self-serving reasons for regulations, Jeff.
        Among them:
        Posturing by Politicians to convince followers that Big Government is doing them good.
        Favoring Crony Capitalists over their less politically-connected competitors.
        Favoring Unionists (thus effectively buying their votes).
        Creating a bigger empire to rule over (like any corporate leader strives to do).
        You could read this and learn something, Jeff, but then you aren’t really here to learn are you?
        http://mises.org/daily/297/Regulatory-Sneak-Attack

        • Jeff

          As you well know, if all you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Government regulation may have contributed to the Stock Market Crash in 1987. It also may not have, but if you’re in the business of criticizing all government regulation, no matter how necessary, there’s not much question what your conclusion will be. The point is the “free market” is a tool for the distribution of goods and services. It is not sovereign. If people want to accomplish a public purpose, they don’t have to ask your or Milton Friedman’s permission first.

          The alcohol example is instructive. The author sees laws against drinking and driving as blackmail as the alcohol industry will continue to pay campaign contributions in order to keep the government from lowering the legal limit. These are primarily state laws, but the trend seems to be to lower the limit from .10 to .08. The author says the real goal is to lower it to .04 but really it’s just out there to collect blackmail. That’s an awfully cynical way to look at a regulation that probably saves thousands of lives every year. Is .08 the optimal level? I don’t know, but I do know the answer is not in eliminating the DUI altogether. Since the very existence of a legal limit constitutes regulation contrary to the interests of the liquor companies, you could argue there should be no limit. It would be a very creepy argument, but it would be consistent. Consistent and stupid.

          This is similar to the tax argument between left and right. Top tax rates of 35% are just fine, but 39% is class warfare, the Reign of Terror, and Leninism all in one. Your position, creepy though it may be, is at least logically consistent (no taxes at all). I’m not sure if the authors are saying there should be no “legal limit,” that it should be .10 and .08 is a blackmail solicitation, or that .08 is perfect and anything lower is tantamount to prohibition. It’s the problem with polemics. Once you declare something like this akin to Prohibition (or to the Nazis, for that matter), no one can take anything else you say seriously.

          I will read the article more fully, but it appears to me justification for previously-held beliefs.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Jeff: As you well know, if all you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

        On the other hand, if all you got is a screw-driver, then everyone looks like a screw…

  • http://PersonalLiberty Donnie

    I think most people commenting including the author would not know what a communist is.People complain about Liberals spending too much money while the Republicans do the same thing.The Republicans are social conservatives they are not fiscal conservatives.When more people see this for the truth they will know that the republicans put more on the national debt than the democrats did.Learn what the conservative part means in the republican party.Then you will see that Ryan’s budget that was passed in the House had a one trillion dollar deficit in it.But they could blame that on the the Liberals.Maybe people will learn both parties have bee fiscal failures.

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      Communism is, simply put, Government owned / government controlled. The people in power give an illusion to the people that people own everything. They’re the people’s “servants” doling out to the people as is “right and proper” as they, “the people’s servants” see fit. it is the ultimate planned society. As individuals, the people have no voice. All people are equal, but some are more equal than others, the “People’s servants”. If you say anything as an individual, you are coming against people collectively and must be punished. It is Satan’s form of government.

      • DaveH

        Those poor deluded souls, who really think Socialism or Communism would treat them equally, should read this:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura

        • Jeff

          Are you really deluded enough to believe the nonsense that recognizing we have a mixed economy is tantamount to communism? I think I’ve said this before, but you sound like a 9th grader just introduced to Ayn Rand.

      • DaveH

        Yet another manipulative personally-attacking comment by the useless Liberal Progressive Jeff.

    • http://google joseph yechout

      OB adheres to the mantra of the far left radicals who condone taking this country down.
      As his bosom buddy says, ” every morning I wake up saying to myself, today we take down capitalism.” As their workbook from written by saul alinsky calls for, to ” collapse
      the system,” and then it is easier to put in a system ,” more to the liking of our hearts desire.” This from the Fabyan Socialists. Hating ” colonialism” as OB and his type does,
      we must be deconstructed as we are too “exceptional” in the world. Notice that when he first got into office he boxed up the bust of Churchill and sent it to the British Embassy.
      Saying, we are not going to be wanting this around anymore. This is due to his
      grandfather being tortured while in custody of the British during an uprising of the
      Kenyans under their rule. The British being the very definition of colonialists.
      As a rep. for the union that is trying to organize Wallmart said when asked the reason for the importance to organize the Co. , ” I think the reason it is so important is that they
      are colonialist in their operation,” And there it is, directly from their playbook.
      Far left radicalism and anti- American/free market capitalism. Down with the system
      and install fascism’marxisim. What ever the tags, they are against what we were at
      the beginning. Must be re-tooled into the European model, and even more so.

  • Sol of Texas

    Chip —

    The quote referenced “… may well evince the vanitie of that conceite of Plato & other ancients, applauded by some of later times; — that ye taking away of properties, and bringing it in communitie into a commone wealth, would make them happy and flourishing; as it they were wiser than God.” is remarkably pertinent.

    All authoritarian political systems share one common trait … the indefensible belief that utopia can constructed from an imperfect world. The arrogance and vanity of the many and various “would-be” utopian authors proclaims confidence that they are “wiser than God”. I’ve never met anyone who knows everything and I am confident I never will – at least not on this planet.

  • Liberty Lover

    Excellent article, Chip. Over the past many years, I have used both of those lessons to demonstrate to my kids and others the evils of socialism. This column deserves to be published every year at Thanksgiving. Thanks.

    • eddie47d

      This article doesn’t even tell part of the story of why and how the Pilgrims survived. It is totally dishonest in why they died and you want your kids to accept it all as fact. You need to dig much deeper and your kids should too.

      • GALT

        But eddie……digging is hard work……you are talking to a “producer”, and there
        seems to be some confusion regarding the distinction……..

        Jana speaks below of the difficulty and “hard work” involved in raising children.

        A “producer” would agree that one must indeed be very meticulous in the
        process and hiring of a suitable nanny or governess…….I mean people like
        Mary Poppins and Maria ( later Von Trapp ) don’t grow on trees?

        Not to worry though, the “producers” at Chevron understand “this confusion” and
        are conducting a major advertising campaign to clear this up…..with their
        “We agree”……campaign………( and the answer DavidH is: NO, they do not
        want to hire you. )

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Why not just share your version with us, Eddie?

      • DaveH

        Galt says — “digging is hard work”.
        Obviously then, Galt, your fingernails are clean.

      • DaveH

        Feel Free, Eddie, to point out specific errors.
        Meanwhile those who want to learn the early History of our country from a Non-Court Historian can read this:
        http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Vol_2.pdf

      • eddie47d

        I mentioned a few reasons throughout this thread.

  • Jack Worthington

    Lochner reasoning is mistaken. One is not “forced” to obey any law. We have choices and there are consequences. Prohibition outlawed alcohol consumption and most manufacturing. But, people were not forced to cease drinking alcohol. Eventually, people realized that they had the power to bring in not guilty verdicts in the teeth of the law, i.e. they had the power, right and duty to judge the law, not just the facts, contrary to the deception of judges, contrary to the truth concealed by the judges. And that is how Prohibition was stuffed down the throats of those who thought they could use force to make people behaved in a specified way.

    Additionally, Thanksgiving was a celebration of the relief those colonists received for having survived the error of experimenting with the evil/corruption of commie/socialism.

    In short Lochner, you missive is a veiled attempt to justify and sanitize the utter evil of commie/socialism and unless one is wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove, unless one can read between the lines of your missive, he will be deceived. I am not so deceived.

    • GALT

      Mr. Worthington, thank you once again for that wonderful example of ignorance
      and the demonstration of the invalidation of what is commonly referred to as
      “economic” theory.

      The results of the evidence of 195,000 Years of “the utter evil of commie/socialism
      homo sapiens rises to the TOP of the FOOD CHAIN.

      The results of the evidence of 10, 000 years, of agriculture, governments and economics
      7 billion people on the verge of self extinction………..which they will generously share
      with most if not all of the other species here……..and a very foolish group of people
      who claim to be the “producers” responsible for this result.

      “He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls
      the future.”

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Galt: “He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls
        the future.”

        Yes Galt, and that is the ultimate prize you radical-socialist covet above all!

      • GALT

        How does one respond to the “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate”…..
        why Q.E.D., of course…….and let’s whip a little non sequitur in there and
        watch him go spastic………wait for it.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Lol, you’re a hoot, Galt!

  • Bob

    Let’s put this business in simpler terms. If you do not reward A and B students with A and B grades, then you will not get A and B results. If people are not rewarded for their productive efforts, then you will not get productivity.

    Populations throughout the world flourish and prosper in direct relationship to how free they are from their government mandates and regulations which typically are excessive and punish productivity and its rewards. Obviously some minimal regulation is needed, but it should be based on rewarding productivity only.

    To put it in the vernacular, what you reward is what you get. If you are getting some unwanted result, then it is being rewarded.

    The prosperity for the rich and the poor in the USA and the western world is crashing due to the punishment of production and the rewarding of non-production. Democracy, socialism, communism and dictators punish productivity and thereby fail their stated idealistic goals. History says they do not work and this is easily observed in any group of any size. Reward production and both the rich and the poor do better and win.

    • GALT

      “A man must live by his work, and his wages must be at least enough to maintain him. They must even on most occasions be somewhat more: otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family and the RACE of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.”

      • DaveH

        “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”.
        Right, Galt?

      • GALT

        Was the functional illiterate trying to say something?

        He seems to quoting Marx for some reason………he must think he knows what
        those words mean……..bet he doesn’t have a clue?

        I feel another Q.E.D. in the offing………wait for it……

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        I think he was quoting you, Galt!….wait for it….

  • DavidL

    Let me see if I understand your logic here. Let’s say you, me, and five other people are stranded in a lifeboat out at sea. You are the only one that has food and water. You do not want to share your food and water because doing so will turn you into a communist and also harm the rest of us?

    You are a naive idiot. The moment you get the words “I’m not going to share” out of your mouth, the rest of us will take the food and throw you overboard. That, my friend, is called the law of the jungle, AND why the social contract was put in place which obligates us all to look after one another for our mutual survival. You help me, I help you. Our first social contract was, wait for it, The Mayflower Compact.

    • DaveH

      Actually, DavidL, if the 5 were like yourself, they would throw the owner overboard and take all that he had.

      • DaveH

        LOL. I hadn’t yet read Dave’s last paragraph where he, for some odd reason, admitted his immorality. At least I can credit you for your honesty, DavidL, even if I wouldn’t take any boat trips with you.

        • Jeff

          Somehow, I don’t think you have any trouble keeping the crowds away from your “boat.” You could film a sequel to the Love Boat. It would be called Dave’s Creepy Boat.

      • Jeff

        And if you had the ability, you’d eat and drink in full view of the others while they starved and died of thirst. Or you could charge $10,000 for a bottle of water. Seems like we used to frown on war profiteering, but that was when it was considered unpatriotic to feather one’s own nest at the expense of everyone else.

      • DaveH

        Actually Jeff, I doubt very seriously that you could hold a candle to my generosity. In fact, I’ve never personally known a Liberal Progressive who was personally generous. You guys are typically generous only with other peoples’ wealth.
        In other words, you are lowlifes.

        • Jeff

          Always good to talk to you, Dave. I so rarely meet a truly Creepy Bastard. You always have to make it personal. No one could actually disagree with Dave and his “taxation is theft” nonsense unless he’s on welfare or a government employee. You’re simply WRONG, Dave.

      • Karolyn

        Dave – How can you even make such a statement? You have no clue how generous anybody other than yourself is.

      • DaveH

        That’s my life experience, Karolyn.
        And from the comments by Liberal Progressives on this board, it’s not hard at all to impute that they’re not generous people by their constant name-calling and other personal attacks and by the fact that so many of you disrespectfully help yourselves to other peoples’ money and then have the nerve to call it “compassion”.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Not only do they claim to be “compassionate”, Dave, but “generous” as well. When its not their cash, their compassion and generosity knows no bounds.

  • Thinking About

    I doubt if there are many who would tolerate the conditions the pilgrims lived in but at the same time native Americans shared their knowledge with the pilgrims and this reality continues today. If we depended on our talent of “hunting varmit” is lacking but they would not being a vulture on others rewards.

  • Mary Ann Stark

    I am a descendant of William Bradford and a member of The General Society of Mayflower Descendants. I have read Of Plymouth Plantation and many other books about the Mayflower. The Pilgrims shared everything copying the English colonies. Bradford instituted capitalism and wrote that everyone had plenty to eat and were so better off than before. We need to have everyone in the US make their own way, get their own food and everything else. History has proven this is the best way.

    • Jack Worthington

      You got it Mary Ann! You didn’t drink the “kool aid” of commie/socialist obumma and his cadre of obummanistas in government, meida and entertainment. I too have read Of Plymouth Plantation and I liked how they handled perversion, something not covered in government schools, especially where homosexuals have found homes and support.

  • g2740cal

    Leochner:

    Pure, Socialist/Communist dogma. Governments are based upon force and you know it.

    Unfortunately, too many of your ilk have infiltrated every aspect of our social and political life and it will take years, if we are lucky enough to survive as a Nation, to return to the Rule of Law based upon LIBERTY and not the whim of a dictator who rules by Executive Order, ignoring the Constitution which he abhors.

    Once again, the Socialists attempt to convince all the phrase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” is a mandate vs. a goal. You have no RIght to education, housing, healthcare, income (including retirement) or even a job. It is YOUR responsibility, and no one else’s, to provide for YOURSELF and your OWN family. It is through the toils of the productive that we have always provided for the truly needy, and generously so, contrary to the dribble of the Socialists/Communists among us who trumpet the problems of a single problem and then attempt to blow it out of proportion, usually ignoring the TRUE facts at hand.

    Are there inequities in life? Absolutely, and there should be as everyone is born as individuals with different abilities and attitudes.

    The point of the Pilgrims story is to clearly demonstrate the truth about Thanksgiving AND the fact that Socialism was attempted for 3 years and caused the death of over 75% of the population.

    “Government is NOT the SOLUTION. Government is THE PROBLEM”.

    • Jack Worthington

      Damned straight! You got it. You passed when offered the “kool aid” of commie/socialism. Right arm ur right on, dude!

    • Deerinwater

      How about ~ many of the people in government and the people that support them is the problem, rather then just keep repeating so statement that you heard someone say?

  • Deerinwater

    Well Chip?, were you teaching Conservatism or Socialism? I understood that you was to introduce conservatism principles?

    You really did not have much luck did you?

    If a person is left to teach anything by demonstrating what it is not , is a far cry from . demonstrating what it “IS”.

    And then too, If some students are making “A” by cheating the system, ~ that blows your example out of the water.

    • Peter 10-nov-1775

      Cheating is a learned behavior that comes about after watching cheaters get rewarded rather than punished. They learn it from tv ‘reality’ shows, from the corrupt government, and yes, even their parents. They see their parents cutting lines, or fudging their taxes and they learn. Those empty heads of mush are like sponges that het force fed liberal drivel from all angles-the media schools, etc. Stop rewarding failure and ineptitude.

      • deerinwater

        “Stop rewarding failure and ineptitude.” ~ no argument there!

        But then if we apply the notion that A grade or accumulated wealth is indicative of only hard work, who is Bernnie Madoff?

        That Mitt Romeny could hide wealth off shore or paid no taxes for years until he decided to run of office and felt it necessary ~ where does this leave us?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        deerinwater: “Stop rewarding failure and ineptitude.” ~ no argument there!
        But then if we apply the notion that A grade or accumulated wealth is indicative of only
        hard work, who is Bernnie Madoff?

        Bernie Madoff is but one in a long list of evil-geniuses that ply their dark-trade on wall street, and wall street being the staging-operations where the employees of the private-banking-cartel syphon the wealth from un-suspecting Americans!

        deerinwater: That Mitt Romeny could hide wealth off shore or paid no taxes for years until he decided to run of office and felt it necessary ~ where does this leave us?

        Out in the cold and sol! You are not part of the good-ol-boy’s-club, deerinwater, the same club that plays poker with our country’s future, and you will never obtain membership. At best, they’ll allow you to vote for one of their own, but don’t expect anything more.

        • Samuel Clemens

          Who is Bernie? Bernie is a criminal serving the rest of his life in jail. You want Mitt Romney to join him?

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “That Mitt Romeny could hide wealth off shore or paid no taxes for years until he decided to run of office and felt it necessary”.
        Did he move after-tax wealth offshore, or taxable wealth? Did he pay no taxes because he used legal tax maneuvers, like we all would, or because he cheated?
        Reasonable men need specifics, Deer, and real facts not conjecture, before they pass judgement.

        • Jeff

          Whether or not Romney broke any laws is not the only issue. He was running for President; not trying to stay out of prison. Some of the tax “loopholes” Romney took advantage of were put there through the lobbying efforts of, you guessed it, Bain Capital. Why is it that whenever something really stinks, either Bain Capital or Halliburton is right in the middle of it? Coincidence?

          http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/01/bain-lobbying-saved-mitt-romney-millions

      • oh oh

        Virtually everything in Congress happens through lobbying, including Obamacare. Guess we ought to undo that one too.

      • DaveH

        It’s funny, Jeff, that I don’t recall you ever advocating that same kind of transparency from Obama.

        • Jeff

          Dave, I think you have me mixed up with one of the other 6 billion people on the planet who think your ideas are nutty. I don’t recall saying anything about transparency.

      • GALT

        Jeff, stop picking on DaveH, and trying to minimize the difficulty he faces….there
        are SEVEN BILLION people now……and THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Galt: Jeff, stop picking on DaveH, and trying to minimize the difficulty he faces….there
        are SEVEN BILLION people now……and THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE.

        Yes Jeff, stop picking on DaveH, as you only prove you have lost the argument and the only thing you have left in your toolbox are ad-hominems.

        • Jeff

          If you are looking only for ad hominem attacks, you will always find them. Yes, I have called DaveH a CB because he personally insults everyone who disagrees with him. But I guess you missed the many paragraphs in which I detail why I so vehemently disagree with his stated position that taxation is theft. I guess you missed those parts and only saw the part you wanted to. Why don’t you go re-read the highlighted portions of the Starr Report.

      • DaveH

        I love it that they do that, Jay. How else can the innocently Propagandized readers learn what Liberal Progressives are really like under the sheets?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        The fifth column, Dave, and their attires are clean and starched!

    • DaveH

      Deer says — “If some students are making “A” by cheating the system”.
      That is purely a non sequitur, Deer. But if you’re against “cheating”, then what are you doing allying yourself with a group of people who live their lives by cheating?

      • Jeff

        Yes, everyone who disagrees with DaveH is cheating. Not only that, they’re corrupt. How could anyone really disagree with such a reasonable fella? They must be getting paid by sinister forces.

      • DaveH

        You vote to redistribute other peoples’ money, Jeff, therefore you are a cheater. In fact, you are a staunch member of the Society of Criminals:
        http://mises.org/daily/4125

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Jeff: Yes, everyone who disagrees with DaveH is cheating.

        I suppose that statement could be easily flipped to your dis-advantage, Jeff; everyone who disagrees with you….

        • Jeff

          It could be if I were as didactic as you and DaveH, believing no one could honestly disagree with me, so anyone who disagrees is doing so for selfish reasons. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen his posts accusing others of “benefitting” from “big government.” I don’t “benefit” from any government program any more than anyone else. I benefit from a lot of what government does (as does DaveH) although others probably benefit more from specific programs. I benefitted from public investments in education, including the University of California in the days it actually was taxpayer supported.

          DaveH I’m sure received public help when he was young, he drives on public roads, he benefits from police, fire, and court protections. If he has or had a business, he benefitted from a publicly educated workforce. But now, the Creepy Bastard wants to claim he shouldn’t be required or even asked to contribute to anything from which he does not personally benefit. His kids turned 18. That means he shouldn’t have to support K-12 schools. And he has the nerve to say others are in it for what they can get.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Your philosophy on taxation is diametrically opposed to that of Dave’s, who he advocates for a consumption-tax. Personally, I don’t think it too difficult to set-up a tax-system whereby you pay for what you consume. Why continue paying for services you have never used or no longer need? If i’ve never had the need for the fire-department, why should i pay for their services, and if there should come a time that i need them, then bill me! If parents no longer have kids in the public-education system, why should they be required to continue paying for that service? In fact, why not privatize elementary education, like College and University? What about parents who have no children, and are not planning to have any, why should they be required to pay for public-education?

        • Jeff

          We are fortunate that the majority of the population can see the advantages to the society as a whole of maintaining some semblance of a social contract. You know, the one you are so opposed to. How do you know what services you’ll need in the future. The paramedic who saves your life one day probably received a public education paid for in part by your tax money. And when they pick you up on the street having a heart attack, they won’t ask with which hospital you have a written contract. Don’t you guys get that a society is more than a bunch of selfish pricks running around with their private accounts and contracts? Is there nothing that is purely public? Nothing that people get by virtue of being alive and human? In your narrow world, I guess not. I’m sure glad I don’t live there.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Jeff: We are fortunate that the majority of the population can see the advantages to the society as a whole of maintaining some semblance of a social contract.

        Your argument is an appeal to widespread belief; bandwagon argument, peer pressure, appeal to common practice, not to mention assumptive. Btw, who is we?

        Jeff: You know, the one you are so opposed to.

        Ambiguous assertion.

        Jeff: How do you know what services you’ll need in the future. The paramedic who saves your life one day probably received a public education paid for in part by your tax money. And when they pick you up on the street having a heart attack, they won’t ask with which hospital you have a written contract.

        Argument from adverse consequences, appeal to fear, scare tactics; saying an opponent must be wrong, because if he is right, then bad things would ensue.

        Jeff: Don’t you guys get that a society is more than a bunch of selfish pricks running around with their private accounts and contracts? Is there nothing that is purely public? Nothing that people get by virtue of being alive and human?

        Argument by question; asking your opponent a question which does not have a snappy answer. Or anyway, no snappy answer that the audience has the background to understand. In light of your questions i have a choice; i can look weak or i can look long-winded. Actually, pretty well any question has this effect to some extent. It usually takes longer to answer a question than ask it.

        Jeff: In your narrow world, I guess not. I’m sure glad I don’t live there.

        Ad-hominem; attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.

        • Jeff

          Congratulations. You’re quite adept at avoiding dealing with difficult issues. Just don’t think you’re fooling anyone, least of all me.

        • Jeff

          OK Here’s one right out of the news for you and Dave. You’ve heard how history repeats itself. Well, they just had a horrible fire at a factory in Bangladesh where people couldn’t escape because the exits were locked. We had a similar incident here about 100 years ago that helped launch the Labor Movement. It was the Triangle Shirt Waist factory fire. The owners of the factory locked the exits because it was best for their bottom line. We introduced regulations to prevent such tragedies from recurring. In places like Bangladesh where there are no such pesky (unnecessary?) regulations and business owners can do as they please, such tragedies still occur.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Hey Jeff, how many socialists does it take to change a light bulb?

        One to petition the Ministry of Light for a bulb, fifty to establish the state production quota,
        two hundred militia to force the factory unions to allow production of the bulb, and one to surreptitiously order an American light bulb. Lol…

        • Jeff

          Has anyone ever told you you were clever? Put it this way, ever tell your wife that dress doesn’t make her look fat?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Hey Jeff, What’s the difference between a Marxist-Socialist and a Keynesian economist?

        Several things, including but not limited to the following:

        The Marxist-Socialist believes that workers should own the means of production, whereas Keynesians support the private ownership over the means of production.

        Marxist-Socialists believe that centralized government would ultimately wither away after a revolution, whereas Keynesians advocate greater government action to ensure full societal employment.

        Finally, a Marxist-Socialist would not be invited to a party that a Keynesian was throwing
        at work because the Keynesian knows that the Marxist-Socialist would throw a stink about the way the cubicles in the Keynesian’s office were arranged.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Jeff: Put it this way, ever tell your wife that dress doesn’t make her look fat?

        Put it this way, have you ever been told your hair-weave makes you look younger?

        • Jeff

          I gave up and I shave my head. But I can still beat guys 20 years younger on the tennis court.

  • Peter 10-nov-1775

    What ever happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? To aspire to and work towards goals? America was founded with the premise that you are guaranteed the opportunity to better yourself. It does not guarantee that success. You reap what you sow. Just because someone is more successful than you does not make them bad. Maybe they tried harder or had a better work ethic. Perhaps they did not get into debt because they hd to have the latest gadget or sneaker. This progressive government makes it worse when forcing banks to issue NINJA (no income, no job, no asset) loans.
    What ever happened to ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. It seems that with the results of this last election there are more takers than makers.

    • Jack Worthington

      You are correct! Chip Wood drank the “kool aid” of commie/socialism. Chip doesn’t deal with who gets to decide what is “good” for the group and that is one of the many flaws of commie/socialists. Only you can decide what is best for you. The essence of freedom is that you reap the rewards of your decisions and you also have the freedom to fail. Bush was wrong to ever admit of “no child left behind.” Later, it was too big to fail and no loser banker could be left behind but had to be bailed out. Evil is as evil does, as Forrest Gump’s mom would say. Commie/socialist conceal the long term catastrophes of their impostions, they only concentrate on the short term benefits/handouts of/thefts of other people’s money.Way to go Peter, you are thinkin’ outside the box of the lame stream media, alphabet channels ABC, CBS, NBC!

    • DaveH

      Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?
      Neither. This country was established on Individual Freedom and Personal Responsibility. Government has no business saving people from themselves, or in demanding service from the citizens.

  • wayne attersby

    I lke President Obama’s philosophy. Make the rich pay for all of us. I have been working since I was sixeen years old and have to admit that I would much prefer being supported by the government. I would like to sit back in the cart and pop grapes in my mouth while other suckers are pulling it. Why should I work when rich people are living better than me? The government should tax rich people 95% so the rest of us can le as well as they do. The rich will keep working hard because they like it.

    • Peter 10-nov-1775

      Why do you not get off your duff and work for what you want? No one owes you anything. You are just lazy and selfish. You are a taker, not a maker.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Peter, wayne’s comment was tongue-in-cheek.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Peter,

        You ought to ask Jay how he knows that it was “tongue in cheek? It sounded so much like many other comments on this site that, if I were you, I would check with the source before I believed Jay’s “take” on it.

        It is certainly more believable than Jay’s many “fingers crossed behind the back as he misleads you” comments.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Interesting how the least little thing amuses you, RBT.

  • deerinwater

    I’m not sure what kind of label we can attach to the idea , that in order for someone to win or be successful, someone must lose.

    Where has the notion of equatable fairness gone?

    I can’t run my business that way, each customer must walk away feeling like they are a winner and have been well served. Yet, clearly, I can not be a loser on every transaction or I would be out of business.

    In search for this fine balance for equity its seem as many on the right wish to misrepresent equatable as socialism.

    The wealthy in our nation today are doing quite well, it is not the wealthy that struggles and has their homes in foreclosure, tax liens placed on their property, or has had to farm out their children among other family members or had to move in with Mother or Uncle.

    W’s tax cuts were used to insure his reelection as he completed his final four year tenure.

    As the sun goes down on these tax cut, we can expect much howling from the right as they once again feel the victim of government that they want, while saying they don’t . They just don’t want to pay for it.

    • DaveH

      The only equitable way that the “fine balance” can be achieved, Deer, is through voluntary transactions. You wouldn’t want your customers to dictate your pricing, and your customers wouldn’t want you to be able to force them to buy. How come you can’t recognize that same equity in Government?

  • DougDeGrave

    “Men went into the fields earlier and stayed later. In many cases, their wives and even their children (some barely past the toddler stage) worked right alongside them.”
    So child slavery is a good thing?
    Ancient Chinese farmers,for their own benefit, would abort their daughters, postpartum. A male child could produce more work than the female child.
    Working 12-hours per day 7-days per week really instills those “family values” as well , huh?

    • Jana

      Doug,
      When a child is working with his parents, no it is not child slavery. More children ought to be taught what work is. We now have a lot of lazy young people in this world. They would rather sit at the computer and play games, or talk/text on their phones that their parents bought for them, or plunk down in front of the television. Work, real work is a dirty word, therefore we have fat kids who don’t know how to do any manual labor, and are rude to their parents. Try to get a kid to go out and mow their own lawn, or help around the house. My kids do help out and know how to do a lot of things, because when we work, they come along and help out and are learning new skills. We don’t send them out to do a job, we go out and do it together. A lot of times now that they are grwowing up some, they see the lawn needs mowing and they go out and do it without being asked.
      Some of their friends think we are cruel to them, but it makes me proud when I hear them reply they actually like it.
      We have had other kids come over and want to “help” too. They like the family being together thing. Too many parents are gone away from the home till rather late. They actually don’t know what their kids are doing. They are really missing out on a lot not knowing their own children very well.

      • Karolyn

        Admirable how you are raising your children, Jana. I never had kids but could never understand how people could expect their kids to grow up as well as they did when they bent over backwards to give them everything they never had as kids, thus spoiling them to be self-absorbed brats.

      • Jana

        Karolyn,
        I agree. It does however take a lot of work.

      • DaveH

        How come you don’t recognize that same effect on adults, Karolyn?

      • Karolyn

        But I do, Dave. Believe me, i see more than my share of welfare cheats and lazy bums given where I live. (Conservative Republican run jobless SC with little help for those who need it) However, as with anything else, you shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. I believe in training programs for those who need it.

      • DaveH

        It doesn’t matter if they’re cheating or not, Karolyn, you simply don’t have a right to give other peoples’ money away.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      DougDG: So child slavery is a good thing?

      As opposed to adult slavery?

    • DaveH

      That’s what happens when people are impoverished at the hands of self-interested Leaders, Doug. They have to do what they can to survive.
      So maybe you Socialists could explain why you want to push us into a system that is well-known for impoverishing countries?

  • Karolyn

    Off topic but a very interesting analysis of this year’s election:

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2012

    • Charlie

      Is that analysis per The Book facts??? ha ha ha ………………………….. Facts are Facts and
      some are even “Truth”……………………………..

    • Deerinwater

      Summary statement of Karolyn’s link

      “If Romney loses the election, it would hardly be devastating for mainstream Republicans. During a second term of Obama, they would no doubt continue to frame the debates.”

      I did not get much out of this piece Karolyn.

      Karl Rove with his cross-roads and Rupert with his Fox News have been attempting to make news and frame the issues of the day for the last 4 years and look where it’s got them.

      Obama has maintained some people and policies left over by W’s administration is true. I would not see this a “approval” but willing to deal with them while confronting matters of greater importance in delicate times.

      The GOP has spend 4 years attempting to hold Bronco Bama to ZERO yardage on all fronts by shear omission, to disinformation of the facts 24/7, with news, weather , sports, running caption. They have failed in their efforts to describe Obama to their own liking while it’s now unclear what a mainstream Republican might actually be today,

      The DNC is not wasting precious time describing opposition, ~ or refaming the issues, We know who flies the GOP flag, who Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are and want no part of them.

  • Robert Smith

    “www.rightwingwatch.org/…/right-wing-continues-push-“socialist-pil…”

  • Charles Sproull

    Recommended reading is pages 200-220 of Wm Murray’s book “Uncommon Sense, the Real AmerncaI Manifesto.” This explains the whole situation in Plymouth and other settlements in more detail.

  • http://att.net JAMES

    Bigger lesson is that the Native Americans taught the colonists how to raise crops, to fish and to hunt so that the Indians did’t have to continue giving the colonist their stores.

    • Thinking About

      I think this is the facts overlooked by this article.
      If not for the assistance of Native Americans I wonder how difficult life would have been for the pilgrims. They provided education to the new comers, shared seeds for crops, another example of “you did not build that yourself”.

      • http://att.net JAMES

        The Lesson is not “Who built that”", but rather “What principles built that”–Not by handouts, but by hard work. The seeds, food, farming techniques, etc., are no good without getting off their backsides and doing themselves. A “hand up” –not a “hand-out”–then hard work.
        Another example, this time, during WWII, military needed secure commo, Navajo & other tribes signed up as “code talkers, used military tech to fool the enemy –they did build that legacy, saving many thousands of lives. I live in OK.

      • DougDeGrave

        “If not for the assistance of Native Americans I wonder how difficult life would have been for the pilgrims.”?
        it would have been like a party….The Donner Party that is.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

    The British East India Company’s War Against the United States.

    http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2008/2008_1-9/2008-2/pdf/60-63_3502.pdf

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

    When Congress refused to renew the Bank’s charter in 1811, the War of 1812 ensued, and in 1816 Congress re-chartered the bank with a capital stock of $35M. “From 1816 to 1828, it was the sole arbiter of the financial affairs of the nation, both public and private. Its power in politics was immense and it swayed elections as well”.

    Senator Benton of Missouri thoroughly understood the means by which the bank had obtained its mastery over the commerce and industry of the nation and at the session of Congress presented a resolution in the Senate to the effect that the charter should not be renewed.

    Senator Benton said,

    “The government itself ceases to be independent, it ceases to be safe when the national currency is at the will of a company [Bank of the United States, now Federal Reserve]. The government can undertake no great enterprise, neither war nor peace, without the consent and co- operation of that company; it cannot count its revenues six months ahead without referring to the action of that company — its friendship or its enmity, its concurrence or opposition — to see how far that company will permit money to be scares or to be plentiful; how far it will let the money system go on regularly or throw it into disorder; how far it will suit their interest or policy. People are not safe when such a company has such power. The temptation is too great, the opportunity too easy, to put up or put down prices, to make and break fortunes, to bring the whole community upon its knees to the Neptunes who preside over the flux and reflux of paper. All property is at their mercy, the price of real estate, of every growing crop, of every staple article in the market, is at their command. Stocks are their playthings — their gambling theatre on which they gamble daily with as little secrecy and as little morality and far more mischief to fortunes than common gambles carry on their operations”.

    When Andrew Jackson was elected President in 1828, he announced in his first message to Congress that he would not renew its charter. By that time, the Bank had great accumulations of reserves. Jackson advocated the passage of a law distributing these surplus revenues back to the states. He ended up vetoing the law Congress passed to re-charter the Bank. His reasons were salient and vital to future U.S. security. Jackson pointed out that the bank’s stock, worth $8 million, was held by foreigners, chiefly in Britain, and that this was the most dangerous feature of the plan because a majority of shares of its stock might fall into alien hands, which, if we were involved in a war, could use its influence against the United States.

    In 1881, President James A Garfield said,

    “Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce….and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate”.

    Needless to say, the move to re-establish control over the economy of the United States did not abate. Between 1840 and 1913, there was much done to try and re-establish a private corporation to control our monetary system.

    In 1910 a group of men met in secret on Jekyll Island to plan the establishment of the
    Federal Reserve Bank of the United States…well, you know the rest.

    So, in view of who basically owns-runs-and controls our country; exactly what are taxes aka profits again? Are some of these taxes/profits invested to building roads? Sure, so the ignorant-slaves can get to work and make more profits for this private-banking-cartel.

    Are some of these taxes/profits invested in the so-called public education? Sure, so as to ensure the un-witting masses are properly propagandized into believing that they live in a free country and are governed by a quasi-political system whose function is to represent the people.

    Are some of these taxes/profits invested in a standing army? Sure, but not for defence purposes, but for the the whim of the vampiric banking-cartel, so they may engage and continue their imperialistic-takeovers of other lands and peoples.

    But then again, just because you are forced to do something you do not agree with, it doesn’t mean that that something that is forced upon you is necessarily wrong, right
    Jeremy?

    So go ahead, folks, pay your and cry that they be increased. Pay your taxes/profits to the tax/profits collectors. Perform your duty, be patriots!

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      Oops, forgot to paste link to the source of article.

      http://rense.com/general75/wrus.htm

      • Right Brain Thinker

        You didn’t need to bother, Jay. It’s just another one of your horsepucky sites designed to further delude the already deluded and misinform the already misinformed. And it’s several year old H-pucky at that—nothing like current info for keeping current.

        It was very confidence inspiring to see the site talking about the “Evil of Axis” in almost the first sentence. Could that “Evil of Axis” have somethijng to do with global warming?. The earth does have an axis and if it’s evil, that would explain all.

  • Vladimir

    To common knowledge, I’ve spent the best days of my life in Soviet Union, and know the socialism first hand. If any of you, who defend current tax code, doesn’t know, let me tell you how Soviet Communist leadership kill capitalism. After total destruction of economy because of early attempt to confiscate all of the product from manufacturers and farmers, which ended with famine and death of the millions, Lenin’s Politburo in 1922 proclame new law -
    permitting people to keep product they create and sell it (after giving about 25% of this to government – called taxes) on open markets. This new policy was called “New Economical Policy” -NEP.
    After complete recovery from economic ruins – Stalin’s government just set tax rate in to the level of 110% of income for any enterprise. Then was forced collectivization of agricultural sector of economy ( which lead to famous famine of 1933 – more then 10miln. dead). Taxes was a tool to kill capitalism and remains of the freedom.
    When government telling me “each one should pay “fare” share”, I’m asking: who are so brilliant to define how mach is “fare”.
    My point is this progressive tax scale is a thievery.
    Best is consumption tax.

    • Jack Worthington

      Thanks Vladimir. You nailed it! It is always good to hear first hand, in country, eye witness reports from those who have experience the pain of commie/socialism. Regards!

    • Charlie

      Vladimir,,,
      Does Russia let the Whole Bible be taught in Churches and / or schools???

    • DaveH

      The Spending is the problem, Vladimir. It really doesn’t matter whether they acquire their revenues by an income tax or a consumption tax. In both cases one group of people bear an unfair burden.
      The only truly “fair” tax would be one in which each adult paid the same each year.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Uh, guys. Have any of you considered that “Vladimir” is a “put on”?

      With fake Russian “accent-grammar” and all? Doesn’t that 110% tax rate seem a little fishy? Does to me. Of course, I’ve been known to miss some things, at least according to some of you—maybe someone can educate me on this one?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Speaking of put on’s…projecting, RBT?

  • Scott I

    People make this mistake all the time. Only 50% of the people on the Mayflower were Pilgrims. The other 50% were of the Company’s (Dutch East or West, can’t remember which) choosing as they did not want the colony to be all pilgrims and wanted some others to keep the pilgrims in check.

    So while the Pilgrims persuaded the majority to accept a communal way of living, much of the “minority” resisted and preferred greed and wanted to see the communal way fail and likely took steps to help it fail. Sound familiar? so when you bash pilgrims and puritans, you are grossly distorting the truth. Read it and weep. This is not to say the Pilgrims were flawless and not without fault. But the Pilgrims likely had significant resistance, since that was the desired result of Dutch financiers to begin with.

    You have all been duped by the hype. Any time a movement starts out with good intentions and prospects, you can be assured that those in high places will seek to infiltrate and compromise your movement. Wake up and smell the coffee.

    • DaveH

      Scott says — “So while the Pilgrims persuaded the majority to accept a communal way of living, much of the “minority” resisted and preferred greed and wanted to see the communal way fail and likely took steps to help it fail”.
      Likely took steps to help it fail? You know that how, Scott? Sounds like conjecture to me.
      Apparently that happens a lot since Communist systems have always brought poverty to their citizens. Oh, but it will be different next time, right?
      Greed? Who’s “greedier” — The person who acquired the wealth from voluntary transactions, or the person who wants to take the wealth from another by Force? It amazes me how you Liberal Progressives can rationalize your theft.

      • eddie47d

        It “amazes” me how the Conservatives are so gullible in believing every road except theirs leads to communism. Especially this whacked out subject about Pilgrims.

      • Scott I

        Yes and no, DaveH. I have no one saying there was a sabotage of the decision. But it is quite apparent that the company did not want the Pilgrims all over there, all by their lonesome. They wanted and demanded a mixed company before they would let the Pilgrims go over. It was not the original plan. So what would you suggest was behind the motive to mix a group in that the Pilgrims did not want? Any answers, Mr. Genius? I’m all ears!

        Further, that this is so common today, it should not be any surprise that such things took place in the past. Human nature and political scheming have long been in existence. Where have you been?

        I am no fan of Communism. The bible in the Mosaic law assigned property ownership and enable a man to be in charge of his own fate. So this is not about communism. It is about subverting some people who wanted to try something in religious AND political freedom and the Dutch Company would not have it.

        Nor am I a liberal progressive. I do not advocate what you suggest. I just believe in telling the facts as they truly are. So how about this for a fact. The Hutterites, who live a communal style in the USA and have been living in this way for 400 years successfully, show that regardless of the system, good people can make any system work. But when subversive jerks try to disrupt people who would very much like to live as they want among themselves without interference, I get a bit annoyed. But you dictators, rather on the right or the left, are all of the same cut and fabric.

        Conservatives are as big a bunch of fools as those liberals who think they will get a free ride. When they finally are moved to work camps, we will then see how they like the “free” ride. Nothing is ever free, especially when conservatives support the status quo and praise corporate welfare, which is far more abusive then social welfare, and never picked on.

  • braxos

    What idiots the writers of Personal Liberty Digest are to suggest that the Pilgrims (searching for religious freedom from persecution in England) were / are communists? It just shows the ignorance of anyone who is a Republican. Or Rush Limbaugh (known prescription drug abuser).

  • jillian volkenbush

    Neither one of your stories addresses the disparity between those who own and those who work for them. Often those who work for them work a lot harder but are not compensated appropriately. This is a very important problem in the capitalist system.

  • ranger09

    people WE still have the TRIBAL WAYS within us, We band together in Defense, Well most of us do. We still have the feeling to help the needy, Well most of us do. Thank goodness there is still people like us around. But the Power and Greedy still run this World of ours.I remember this Woman that told her Husband when she was dying, Use my body so the Children can survive. Tribal Ways have gone out the window, BUT some of use still share what little we have with the less fortunate. Some have a lot and share very little. When a Leader is unable to lead the People, He or She needs replaced.

  • ranger09

    Its turning into a Profiteering World. There will be no end to Power and Greed. The people use to own the land, The Water and the Food. Now these things are controlled by Large Corporations. and the Powers to Be.

  • Right Brain Thinker

    I’m leaving this thread now, folks. Have fun.
    Since Chip seems to be hiding from me and has not answered the points I made at 8:30 and 11:09 AM on 11/23, and the rest of you seem to agree with DaveH, I see no reason to stick around. If Chip should answer me, perhaps someone could copy it and put it in a thread where I am actively involved? Thanks.

    DaveH says:
    November 23, 2012 at 1:52 pm
    I don’t know or care whether Chip’s claim is original or not.

    Says a lot for your intellectual integrity and moral values, Dave.

    • Karolyn

      Chip never responds RB.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Chip never responds to morons!

    • DaveH

      No “Brain”, what it shows is your usual useless personally attacking comment.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      Oh dear, RBT seems rather upset and angry; or is it, exasperated? Does this mean you’ll be taking your global-warming bible and your socialist manifesto and going home? Do yourself a favour, RBT, next time, leave your bible and your manifesto at home and bring your brain to the gun-fight, you may stand a better chance…i doubt it.

  • DaveH

    Have you noticed, Folks, that there’s been a dearth of NeoCon Progressives posting here lately?
    We’ve been deluged by the Liberal Progressives, but I rarely spot a NeoCon Progressive these days.
    Now this is just a theory, so don’t get your knickers in a twist, but I think that is because the NeoConservatives generally appeal to a more moral, more intelligent crowd and they know we will make them look bad, so they are smart enough to stay away.
    On the other hand the Liberal Conservatives appeal to a more emotional crowd that is easily swayed by adolescent manipulative techniques such as those employed by most of the Liberal Conservatives with the exception of a few like Karolyn who have been just genuinely innocently brainwashed into a Liberal stupor.
    We must be making some real progress, judging by the shrill desperate attempts by the board shills to silence us. So keep fighting the good fight Liberty Lovers.

    • DaveH

      Liberal Conservatives? LOL. Obviously I’ve been working too hard in the yard. I meant to say Liberal Progressives.

      • GALT

        Aw don’t sweat is good buddy……..when you don’t know what the words mean,
        what you meant to say doesn’t matter.

        Now be a good “secret weapon” and get some rest…..

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Father Galt, the preacher and ardent disciple of global-warming and radical-socialism(as you can’t have one without the other) accusing others of not understand words and there true meaning…and this coming from one who violates every rule of grammar, not mention the flagrant butchering of the english language! Overburdened by guilt, brother Galt? Assuage your guilt-ridden soul, oh brother, and by thyself some carbon-credits. Btw, say hello to reverend Gore(ching ching $$$$)for me…he’s always in my prayers. Hallelujah…!

    • Karolyn

      Dave – Where do you get the idea that because someone wants to debate you they want to silence you? Like anybody could believe that it would even happen?

      • Charlie

        Delete the debate , and remember to…………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

  • Lois

    Excerpt from the Bible Handbook http://www.giveshare.org/BibleLaw/lawhandbook/

    The Bible conveys the principle of individual responsibility, and that the primary cause of poverty is due to laziness. Thus, the primary means for sustaining life that should be followed according to biblical doctrine is expressed in the phrase: “if any would not work, neither should he eat” (2 Thes. 3:10). Each man was to bear his own burden for support and a livelihood. Each man was also expected to provide for his own (i.e., kinsmen), and especially for those of his own house” (1 Tim. 5:8).

    However, God had proclaimed that, “The poor will never cease out of the land” (Deut. 15:11). This was reiterated by Christ who assured us, “the poor you will always have with you” (Matt. 26: 11). Further, there will always be orphans, widows, those that suffer hardships, loss of homes, and other cases of poverty. Thus, a number of ways were provided throughout the Bible by which the needy, the poor, widows and orphans could be aided and supported.

    The most common form of aid recognized and established was charity from individual to individual. It is regarded as a Christian duty to give and aid others in need:

    “I have showed you all things, how that so laboring you ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive’ ” (Acts 20:35).

    Throughout history there have been both the rich and the poor, but this is a God ordained distinction – “The LORD makes poor and makes rich” (1 Sam. 2:7). Thus, God gives certain men riches and wealth (Eccl. 5:19), just as He gives certain gifts and skills to others. Each are expected to give in proportion to what God has given them (Mark 12:41-44).

    The basic welfare system prescribed in the Bible is based upon individual charity, and tells us that we should not harden our heart towards the poor or needy, but shall lend to him what is sufficient to cover his needs (Deut. 15:7-8).

    • Charlie

      How does one become free from sin and poverty ??? according to The,Bible???

      • Lois

        By learning, understanding God’s Word, instruction. But, being in the human flesh, we are not perfect, and will sin, BUT we have to try to work not to sin. God has sustained me, but I still sometimes slip.

        Avoid those things that will tempt you, You can’t separate the mind/body/spirit. Personally, I know people who have boycotted the television, and movies. Entertainment for the last 60 years is corrupt, encouraging immorality, violence, drugs, corruption, breakdown of the family. A lot of the music is ugly, and music is a language, but has become filthy. The enemy within want to destroy the family unit,, destroy our future generations.

        Wake up Americans…turn to God’s Word for the answers.

      • Charlie

        Lois,,,
        Good answer ,but, repentance is the first item mentioned in Acts 2:38,,,so ,,, repentance is a needed prayer for most people because of exposure to on going “sins” of those around and media , etc… Baptism gives basic salvation,,,but,,,repentance is needed for sin exposure recovery procedure as called out at 1 John 1:9… Also ,IF, one thinks it is needed for some procedural error ,,,one may be rebaptized per Acts 19:3… Meanwhile….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing…

        Charlie Freedom

  • Ethan

    The first Thanksgiving in what was later to become the United States was not Protestant, but Catholic. A Traditional Latin Mass (of course, there was no other!) of Thanksgiving was celebrated at St. Augustine, Florida, in 1565 — 55 years before the Pilgrims Landed at Plymouth Rock.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

    An economics professor at the University of Florida said while he had never failed a single student before, he had failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked and that under socialism no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

    The professor said ok, we will have an socialism experiment.

    All grades would be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one should fail and no one should receive an A. After the first test all the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied little were happy, while the students who studied hard were very upset.

    For the second test, the students who studied little studied even less and the students who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too, so they studied less. The second Test average grade was a D! The entire class was upset.

    By the 3rd test the average grade was an F.

    The scores never increased, as blame, bickering, name calling all resulted in hard feelings. No one wanted to study for someone else. The entire class failed to their great
    surprise.

    The professor explained that socialism would ultimately fail, not because the harder to succeed the greater the reward principle, but because when a government or society takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

    Donald Trump’s daughter, Ivanka, was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be very liberal, and among other liberal ideals she was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs — what her dad dismissed as “redistribution of wealth.”

    She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch conservative, and a rich one at that — a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his, rather than benefit society.

    One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. “You don’t need to spend money on these expensive furnishings in this huge house when there are people who need to earn more than minimum wage and better food!” she lectured.

    To her shock and amazement, all The Donald said in reply was “Welcome to socialism.”
    That’s it? she thought to herself — no argument? But before she could even think of a follow-up, he actually changed the subject! “How are you doing with your studies?” Trump asked her.

    Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn’t even have time for a boyfriend, and didn’t really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.

    Her father listened and then asked, “How is your friend Audrey doing?”
    She replied, “Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She’s always invited to all the parties, and lots of times she doesn’t even show up for classes because she’s too hung over.”

    The Donald was closing in now. He asked Ivanka, “Why don’t you go to the Dean’s office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.”

    Ivanka, visibly shocked by her father’s suggestion, angrily fired back, “That’s a crazy idea, how would that be fair!? I’ve worked really hard for my grades! I’ve invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played
    while I worked my tail off!”

    Then Donald slowly smiled, winked and said gently, “Welcome to capitalism.”

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Jay,
      Since no one is paying any attention to this thread anymore, I won’t ask for sources on these two posts. The “professor” one is so old it’s urban legend stuff now anyway. The Ivanka and Donald one IS a new twist on it though.

      If you’re even paying attention to this thread, my real reason for replying is to point you to a great column in the 12/2/12 WashPost by Steven Pearlstein. (go to postbusiness.com). I think you and I would agree on what he said as being “spot on”.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

    Soviet Sausage Joke

    Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism have a meeting for tea at noon.

    Capitalism and Communism arrive on time, but Socialism is nowhere to be found.

    Finally he arrives, out of breath and apologetic.

    “I’m sorry,” says Socialism, “I was standing in line for sausage.”

    Capitalism says – “What’s a line?”

    And Communism says – “What’s a sausage?”

  • http://yahoo.com John C Scharringhausen

    Policy making in our gov.

  • Louis Lemieux

    Americans make up 5% of world population but generate 23% of the wealth in the world. Who in the US benefits the most from that wealth? Capitalism is a kind of legalized pyramid scheme, in the sense that the more money you make the more your possibility of making more and thus concentrating the money supply. It’s a system that needs to be kept in check by socialistic measures. Unbridled capitalism is for those who believe that people exist for money instead of money existing for people! Monopoly game anyone!

    The richest in the US have a tax rate on income that’s about one-third of what it was in the 1950s. And the richest, who often take most of their income in the form of capital gains, often pay a lower tax rate than Warren Buffett’s secretary. The top 1 percent of Americans now have greater collective net worth than the entire bottom 90 percent.

    As for the Pilgrims, believe it or not, the first American Indian they spoke to could speak English and five of the pilgrim families were French, protestant French. One of them went by the name of Cartier, later changed to Carter.

  • Right Brain Thinker

    Left this thread because it was getting a bit cluttered with comments from the “willfully ignorant” and “functionally illiterate”.

    Came back for a quick “look see” in passing and couldn’t resist the urge to “document” what was apparent to me when I left and is even more apparent now. A quick tally reveals:

    Total comments on this thread: 586

    Comments made by DaveH 104.
    Comments made by JeffH 21
    Comments made by WTS(Jay) 35

    Total comments made by
    The Three Stooges, an incredible 160 (27.3% of the total)

    So, TWENTY-SEVEN POINT THREE PERCENT of all the comments on this thread were made by the same three people and 125, or TWENTY-ONE POINT THREE THREE PERCENT were made by just ONE PERSON, DaveH-jEfFh-dAveH-JeffH, since they are just two of DaveH’s multiple personalities. (And I’ll bet that JeffH is giving DaveH heck for not letting him get a word in edgewise—I can see them (him) now, sitting in the corner of the dark closet, arguing amongst himself-themselves).

    Leaving this thread again—going to some threads where DaveH-jEfFh-dAveH-JeffH have/has not appeared in his/their glorious ignorance and much more intelligent conversations are therefore taking place.

    WTS(Jay) has found his way there too and he and I have actually found things to agree on. Jay hasn’t found it necessary to call me any snarky names there and we’re actually talking! A welcome change (and Lord love a duck!)

    • Charlie

      RBT,,,
      Thanks for the trivera ,but We already know who the motor mouths and half brainers are…
      Meanwhile……………
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

  • John

    We can say all that we can about the native American, but we had no rights of this land. We sailed to this land to take it, not to get aquainted with the native American. We are thieves.” It’s like we enter someones home and don’t want to leave. We murder, rape, and spread our diseases to %95 of the family in the home. We brought our religious preference to this new stolen home. We even enslaved the rest of the family.” On top of that, we have built a tradition of giving thanks to a God on Thanksgiving for blessing us and letting us get away with the most disgusting thing to humanity. To the native Americans, that is a slap to them. We have no rights. To have this reversed on us today, we wouldn’t like that, would we? We tried to make just for what we did. But we have lost that “consciousness.” If the pilgrims came here for religious freedom, then religions have no justifications. We had to leave our homeland and come here to destroy someone elses’. Talk about guilt!

  • Leslie

    like Marvin replied I cant believe that you able to get paid $5678 in 1 month on the computer. did you look at this web site FAB33.COM

  • Leslie

    my co-worker’s step-aunt makes $69 an hour on the laptop. She has been without a job for nine months but last month her payment was $19344 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Read more on this site FAB33.COM

  • Alan

    i assume this contempt is directed toward president obama. is there a problem with trying to level the playing field so people who don’t have large sums of money don’t pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes? wealthy people can invest in money making ventures and less fortunate people live paycheck to paycheck as i do. yet wealthier people pay a lower percentage of their incomes on taxes than i do because, in theory, their investments will create more jobs. welol, guess what? it hasn’t worked. in 1980, w. bush institut off of itseed tax breaks for the wealthy, yet unemployment is one of the biggest problems in the u s today. why? companies won’t hire more because of uncertainty of the economy.
    so basically the financial crisis is feeding off of itself, and conservatives wish for it to continue doing so.

    Is this for the brst?

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