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A Serious Warning About Muni Bonds

September 16, 2010 by  

A Serious Warning About Muni Bonds

“To disrupt our services because we can’t make a bond payment would just be unconscionable. And as a leader I couldn’t do it.”

So explained Linda Thompson, the mayor of Harrisburg, Pa. She was explaining the city’s refusal to repay part ($3.29 million) of the $288 million it owes for an incinerator it bought. The total obligation for the incinerator comes to roughly $6,000 per citizen of the city. It is a debt that can’t be repaid and should have never been lent.

Unless you happen to live in Harrisburg you probably didn’t see this item in your local paper. And you probably wonder why we’d bother writing about it. After all, why should the impending bankruptcy of a small Pennsylvania city matter to you?

It should matter to you because it represents the next leg of the debt crisis — the failure of municipal finance. We were also struck by the logic of the mayor… who clearly views paying the city’s debts as optional.

She knows the state of Pennsylvania will be forced to bail out her city. (If the state doesn’t intervene it will be impossible for any other city in Pennsylvania to issue bonds.) And even if the state refuses, the bonds are insured by Ambac, which means, in the eyes of the mayor, it’s likely that no one will get hurt by her decision.

That’s how a $288 million loss can become irrelevant to an elected local official. Like a subprime borrower living in a house without paying his mortgage, the mayor of Harrisburg thinks paying for its debts is someone else’s problem. She’s bringing Obamanomics to city finance.

We have this warning to offer: When our elected officials no longer care about repaying hundreds of millions of dollars, the entire system of municipal finance is going to collapse. And the damage that’s going to occur will be material to our entire country.

The system that exists today was created in the 1970s. The entire system is predicated on the lie that States won’t allow losses to muni-bond holders. That’s the only reason muni-bonds are insurable: The insurance companies know there will never be a claim. They have no reserves to cover the risk of municipal losses because there have almost never been any. Over the last 40 years, the default rate on investment-grade municipal debt was 0.03 percent, according to the credit-ratings service Moody’s.

You can think of this system as similar to the subprime-credit bubble. No banker in his right mind would loan money to a person with no credit and no job who was buying a house in a slum. But once you took the credit risk away from that banker, he was happy to lend billions on deals like that because the risk became someone else’s problem. Billions in bad debts piled up. Suddenly, it was the banker’s problem again because he’d destroyed the entire system.

The same thing is about to happen in the muni-bond market: Nobody has paid any attention to credit quality because everyone believed the states won’t allow cities to go bust. As a result, a truly stupendous amount of money has been lent to cities — cities that have no hope of ever repaying the debts. Specifically, municipal debt now totals $2.8 trillion — roughly 22 percent of our country’s gross domestic product (GDP). That’s an all-time high. The amount of debt owed by cities has doubled since 2000. And the debts are now too big for individual states to guarantee.

Harrisburg is small potatoes. Mass transit systems are a much, much bigger problem. Almost every local politician in America has promised a subway, a train or a bus to take his constituents to work for next to nothing — but running these systems is incredibly expensive. In Boston, the mass transit authority is now $8.5 billion in debt and has been paying $500 million per year in interest. Does that sound sustainable?

What about all of the stadiums and arenas built over the last 20 years? Politicians love to build these things as part of citywide “revitalization” efforts. But paying for them? That’s somebody else’s problem.

Take the Meadowlands — the football stadium built nearly 40 years ago. It was torn down last year, but it has never been paid for. The New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority (aka the State of New Jersey) borrowed $302 million to build it and never repaid the debt. Today, it owes more than $800 million and spends $100 million per year on interest for a stadium that no longer exists. California has 380 different local redevelopment agencies which collectively owe $29 billion.

This money will never be repaid.

When I warn people about muni-bonds I always get the same reply: “Governments don’t go broke.” Oh yes, they do. States face a cumulative budget gap of $140 billion in the next year — they don’t have the money to guarantee these debts. Meanwhile last year, more than 187 tax-exempt issuers defaulted on $6.4 billion of securities — the most since 1992. These numbers are going to get bigger — a lot bigger.

You see, all of this credit was only made available because lenders believed (foolishly) that there was no risk in lending to cities and states… just like they handed out all those subprime loans believing they would never default because “home prices never decline.” But after a few city bankruptcies (like Harrisburg), that thinking is going to change — forever.

With less (or no) additional credit available, how will cities and States be able to refinance at a reasonable price? Just like when the subprime credit markets shut down, the whole system collapsed because no one could refinance. The same thing is going to happen with the cities and the States.

There’s a very good chance that once the dominoes start falling, there won’t be any way to stop them without a massive Federal bailout.

Oh… one more thing… guess which bank has the most exposure to the muni-bond market? Again, just like with subprime, it’s Citigroup. It holds $13.4 billion, roughly twice as much as the other major banks.

Good investing,

Porter Stansberry

 

Editor’s Note: Local governments are no doubt grateful for the billions of dollars that have poured into muni-bonds over the past 18 months. But if some of those dollars are yours, you should know you’re not getting adequately paid for the enormous risk you’re taking.

A much safer — and more profitable — strategy is to avoid the usual income investments and look for high-yield opportunities your broker will never tell you about. We’ve put together a website detailing our favorites right now.

Click here to learn more.

Porter Stansberry

founded Stansberry & Associates Investment Research, a private publishing company based in Baltimore, Md., in 1999. His monthly newsletter, Stansberry's Investment Advisory, deals with safe value investments poised to give subscribers years of exceptional returns. Porter oversees a staff of investment analysts whose expertise ranges from value investing to insider trading to short selling. Together, Porter and his research team do exhaustive amounts of real-world, independent research. They've visited more than 200 companies in order to find the best low-risk investments in the world.

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  • Sondera

    Lock down all the borders and kick out all illegal immigrants and cutt off completely ALL welfare programs to them. Practice isolationism. We have enough bodies and resources to survive ourselves if we cut them all off and send them back. Bring our troops home and let them fight their own battles not bring them over here to sit while we fight for them. STAY HOME IMMIGRANTS. We no longer need bodies to build an industrial nation.

    • Richard

      I agree Sondera.

      I also think that seeing municipalities default and get away with it would be much better than it was seeing the bankers get away with the scam they did. They will do it again because of all the misunderstandings – like people believing it was about mortgages which isn’t true.

  • DaveH

    Hopefully,
    There will be a new Congress in place, and there won’t be any bailouts for profligate cities and states. The only way anybody learns is for them to pay for their own foolishness.

    • Richard

      That isn’t true DaveH
      People don’t learn. Look at all the christians and “independents” that were always fooled by the RNC. The latest RNC joke on them – the Tea Party – is working just as well as previous ones.

      • Les

        And the Socialists pretending to be Democrats are so much better at representing you? Wow!

        Both parties are two sides of the same coin. This is all just going to get worse. As it has been doing since the sneaky 1913 Federal Reserve Act.

        • dgrist

          how do we get past the 1913 act?

        • Richard

          “Les says:
          September 16, 2010 at 10:12 am

          And the Socialists pretending to be Democrats are so much better at representing you? Wow! ”

          Thanks for trying to put words in my post that I didn’t use. These are my words:
          3 stupidest things in America:
          1 people that think Democratic Party is going to help (unless those people are large multinational corporations that are paying them)
          2 people that think Republican party is going to help (unless those people are large multinational corporations that are paying them)
          3 people that don’t understand that the Tea Party is a joke being played on them by the RNC

          • a progressive nightmare

            But the Tea Party idiots will put the RNC back in power anyway

        • a progressive nightmare

          “But the Tea Party idiots will put the RNC back in power anyway”

          The above statement is not my post.

          It looks like one or more of the progressive hacks are posting comments for me. Dirty little suckers, aren’t they.

          By the way, to whom ever it is posting this crap under my name, the TP is and will continue to get the Rhinos out of the GOP and return it to it’s conservative/libertarian roots.

          • Bob

            Progressive The Tea Party has been hijacked by Beck, Palin and Gingrich among others to get them to vote Republican.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Bob, Yeah right.

      • s c

        You sure are right, Dickie. People start out as socialists, fascists, communists, progressives, all manner of perverts and boneheads – and then they get worse. They never get it.
        They can’t read, they hate the Constitution, and being an overpaid, programmed parrot is the best they can expect. When they get completely off-the-chart, they line up and hope that con artists like Herr Obummer will ‘save’ them. Yep, you sure got that ‘right,’ Dickie.

      • Meteorlady

        The Tea Party is working quite well and has endorsed candidates that were not hand picked by the RNC. As for Democrats – they are what started the Tea Party. We are mad and we want our constitution back with smaller federal government.

        • Meteorlady

          Ops – didn’t mean literally started the Tea Party, meant they and their policies are responsible for the start of the Tea Party.

          • Denniso

            This article is just more fear mongering designed to cripple the economy as long as Dems are in control…if Repubs regain power,watch
            and note how these sorts of articles will disappear and all will bw well in the circles of power.
            The tea party is helping to prevent a sweep of congress for the Repubs by nominating extremists and wackos that will stand no chance in Nov…the average American may be angry w/ the way things are going,but will not vote for people who want to dismantle gov’t and society. I predicted the tea party would ensure that the Repubs can’t take over congress, and it looks like I’ll be proven right. Congratulations,radical gun toters…

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denisso, You haven’t been correct about anything yet so why should we listen to your continued foolishness now?

            We are purging the RHINOS(Alias Progressives) from within our party. Keep kidding yourself, about what this is all about. You don’t get it and neither does Washington, but soon, both you and them, will.

          • Meteorlady

            Give me some names of the “extremists” and “wackos” please? All I have seen is people running that want to down size the federal government and clean up Washington. If these are wackos, what is your definition of wacko?

          • denniso

            O’Donnell,Angle,Palin…led and pushed by your kingmakers Limbaugh,Beck and Savage,among other wackos and idiots.
            You people don’t understand politics in America,that’s why you elected the sub-intellect Bush and lost all power in ’06 and ’08. Most
            of the average Americans are not dumb enough to fall for the failed policies of Cheny/Bush again. You think you’re on a roll, but it’s a roll into oblivion,again.

          • denniso

            The Repub party is more white and extreme than it’s been in decades.
            I’m thrilled to see Palin the master politican fighting w/ a real politician Rove. When the clueless people in your party think that McCain is a ‘progressive’ and RINO, then you are in trouble. How do you think that you can downsize and restrict the membership in your party and still win national elections?

          • denniso

            I was right in 2000 when Gore won the popular vote, right again in ’06 and ’08. Bush had 2 wars going in ’04 w/ red alerts and despite that I was almost right again. You??

          • a progressive nightmare

            I think we have denisso talking to herself now, and to think, we have emotional braindead people, just like her, running our country!

          • denniso

            Typical of most on this site, you can’t address a point. Afraid??

          • a progressive nightmare

            denisso,Afraid of what? A silly childish progressive? You would be better served addressing an age group between 6-12.

            Let’s see, not that I have the time but I will “Address” you:

            You said:
            The Repub party is more white and extreme than it’s been in decades.

            My address to you: The TP is what you better be concerned about. We aren’t robots like you dems. FREE independent thinkers, my little progressive friend. I vote a split ticket, always have, always will. I will vote for fiscal conservatives regardless of party affiliation….period.

            you said:
            I’m thrilled to see Palin the master politican fighting w/ a real politician Rove.

            My address to you: Who cares? We don’t have a dog in that fight. Our fight will come november and we will not be distracted by petty politics. That’s your game, not ours, we are about fixing this screwed up mess created by liberals…..period.

            I’m not a Palin supporter for president and I think she would better serve our country in the role that she is currently in. Even though she has VAST executive experience and/or abilities beyond OBLAMA’s, she still does not have the experience to be president, in my opinion.

            You said: When the clueless people in your party think that McCain is a ‘progressive’ and RINO, then you are in trouble. How do you think that you can downsize and restrict the membership in your party and still win national elections?

            My address to you: McCain is a progessive and so are his pals, liberman and graham. I would love to see McCain go home and take his buddies with him. Then we could send some REAL leadership back to washington to get busy about solving this disaster created by 100 years of progressive foolishness.

            Any more addressing you need?

          • Denniso

            I rest my case…you’re party is in trouble. You think the Dems have anything to do w/ Rove and Palin fighting? And just watch for more of this infighting in the next month. Have you noticed that the market is slowly but steadily going up? Have you noticed that jobs are being created and that consumption is also up?

            You didn’t address my comment about the Repubs and especially the tea people being increasingly white…that doesn’t concern you? Your party is more exclusive than ever. Maybe you like that aspect of the party because you think, like many Repubs do, that whites are more intelligent anyway?

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denisso, You haven’t made a case, so what are you resting, your brain?

            What infighting and who cares? It’s just dumb politics. You think the dems aren’t having problems with infighting equal to the GOP? Again, these anti-american progressive-marxist idiots have infiltrated both parties but hopefully we can do someting about that come november.

            The DOW has been artificially inflated by all the fake money printed, bailout and pork barrel spending in Washington. In fact, our entire economy is now fake because it is not based upon free market concepts. If you don’t believe me then put ALL YOUR money in the stock market, please. Come back to me after this quarter ending and let me know how well you did. Then come back to me at year ending 2010 and show me your gains and/or losses.

            On the subject of race, since you made an issue of it. Once again, as a typical liberal, you assume much and know very little. I guess since I am black man and a member of the TP, the majority “White” thing doesn’t bother me. The majority of TP members are conservative and/or libertarian and yes, we have black conservative members. SHAZAMM! Who would have thunk it!

            DUMMY!

          • denniso

            Keep ‘purifying’ your party and see what happens. The Repub party is already smaller than the Dems, so be my guest, kick out the ‘infidels’
            and ‘just politics’ will take care of the tea party and the Repub party. My case…

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denniso, Well now, only the outcome of the november election will test your theory, correct?

          • denniso

            I don’t usually talk w/ people who call me an idiot, but yes, the Nov elections will prove me right as the nomination of O’Donnell is alredy doing…the Repubs WON’T capture either house and Obama will win in 2012.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Deniso, Yep, and if we were to extract your brain and put it in a jay-bird, it would flip upside down and fly backwards.

      • DaveH

        Speaking of Liberals, Richard, when are you people going to wake up? I know that some of you don’t want to wake up because you are feeding at the trough. But for those of you who are just having the wool pulled over your eyes, think about this:
        http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Census-Bureau-reports-new-cnnm-2077327017.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

        Why do we even still have poverty? I thought Big Government promised to save us all? Well, they are saving themselves for sure. Wake up people. If you want opportunity; if you want a shot at success; if you want a shot at wealth; you must vote against Big Government and all their Big Business Favoring regulations. The Democrat Leaders sure aren’t going to do that for you. They want Big Government and all its power and perks. The Republican Leaders give lip-service to smaller government, but they usually stray. Mostly they are too busy trying to save people from themselves and creating different problems for us all with their meddling.
        There is only one Party with the principles to shrink the size of Government and put that money back into the system where regular folks can earn it. Vote Libertarian. If you have bought into the “don’t split the vote” mantra, you can at least join us and support us, and then wimp out at election time to vote for the “lesser of two evils” which is still just evil.

        • denniso

          Capitalism has NEVER ended poverty and NEVER will,except in war time.
          Capitalism can make a country generally prosperous and create a small wealthy class, but because of the ‘laws’ of capitalism it also maintains a poverty class…wage levels,inflation,supply/demand,
          population,education,human nature, all lead to capitalism’s inability to provide good paying jobs to all who can work. That’s why, after a couple of centuries of experimentation, all countries know that some level of gov’t intervention and support are entirely necessary for a reasonable and functional society to exist.
          Name one country in the world that isn’t a dictatorship and functions well w/o gov’t help in the economy…

          • a progressive nightmare

            denisso, and which one of those glorious systems are you speaking of?
            You cannot possibly think that this audience is that stupid, can you?
            Maybe you are that stupid, given you last statement. You may be better served speaking with an audience between 6-12 years aged. See if that works for you.

          • agneaux

            Everything you just wrote is completely wrong.

          • denniso

            Who said anything about any ‘glorious systems’?? Once again, you can’t speak and make yourself understood?

            As far as people here being ‘stupid’, of course I ocassionally marvel
            at the apparent low level of reason and education exhibited by some.

          • DaveH

            For anybody that does not know Denniso is full of beans. Here is a ranking of the world’s countries in order of economic freedom. You can pick the name of the country for further information on that country. Notice the countries near the top of the list are much more desirable places to live and visit then are the countries at the bottom of the list:
            http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx

          • a progressive nightmare

            denniso, I understand now! You are an educated idiot! Thanks for letting me in on that. You thinking about running for the senate? We have dozens just like you in the senate just waiting to join forces with you. Maybe your first bill could be strapping our grandchildren with another 50-100 trillion in foolish spending.

            People like you can’t balance a personal checking account much less run a nation. Capitalism is the best form of government ever conceived by the human mind. NObody said it was perfect, it is just the best system option we have. Socialism, Marxism, Communism, etc etc etc has been tried since the beginning of time and has failed every time and WILL FAIL every time.

            Let’s hear you “Educated” altenative to our system and then we can discuss it. Deal?

          • DaveH

            Capitalism doesn’t maintain a “poverty class”, Dumniso. The people in the “poverty class” do that for themselves. While most of us were studying and learning, they were playing. While we work, they loaf around or party. They made that bed entirely for themselves.
            I suspect Dumniso would say that he has his own business. Isn’t it funny how many of these Liberals tell us they have their own business? Coincidence? I doubt it. My guess is that Dumniso works for the Government. Liberals like to divert our attention by pointing fingers at Big Bad Business while the biggest gang in the land (government) is spending 37% of our Gross Domestic Product. Would you spend that much for protection voluntarily? I wouldn’t. The people in Government are making fools of the rest of us.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Daveh,,, You bet! We are being made fools of every day by the federal governemnt. Isn’t is nice to be able to make 54.8% more, as a federal worker, than those of us in the private sector doing the same job. Or even better, let’s me and you write a few rules for our competition and then not follow them ourselves.

            THANKS FEDS…we really appreciate it! Got anymore fair and balanced things you would like to do for us folks paying the bills? Whoopie!!!!

          • denniso

            You said it,not me…you guys are too big of fools for me to waste time on. You can’t comprehend what you read and are blind to anything but what you already believe…fools. Bob Livingston thought that if I refrained from insults that it would raise the level of discourse, the problem is that you people don’t know the meaning of discourse.

          • vicki

            denniso writes:
            “Capitalism has NEVER ended poverty and NEVER will”

            Nor is it the job of Capitalism to end poverty. That is the job of people. Of amusement the poor in the US live a lot better than the “middle class” in many others.

            “Capitalism can make a country generally prosperous.” PEOPLE working and creating wealth make a country generally prosperous.

            “and create a small wealthy class,”

            Inadequate definition of wealthy. Your point has no meaning.

            “but because of the ‘laws’ of capitalism it also maintains a poverty class…wage levels,inflation,supply/demand,
            population,education,human nature, all lead to capitalism’s inability to provide good paying jobs to all who can work.”

            Every element Capitalism builds on and helps anyone willing
            to work to make a VERY good living.

            I offer as proof the United States of America. Millions and
            millions of people emigrated here legally and those who did
            and worked hard did do very well. That is why so many people
            STILL come here because we were the land of opportunity.

            Then the progressives came.

            “That’s why, after a couple of centuries of experimentation, all countries know that some level of gov’t intervention and support are entirely necessary for a reasonable and functional society to exist.”

            Our forefathers were obviously much smarter than the people you speak of cause they realised the need for a SMALL government for a reasonable and functional society. Didn’t take them 2 centuries. They were however capable of learning from the mistakes of others.

            Name one country in the world that isn’t a dictatorship and functions well w/o gov’t help in the economy…

            England, Ireland, Scotland, Switzerland, United States. Theres some for you. Note that government interferance today is making it hard to see that they did do just fine without government meddling.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denniso, You are the one that is foolish, you just don’t realize it yet. Progressives in general are the most foolish people on the planet and the country DOES realize it…finally….and that my friend, is the difference.

          • Denniso

            Vickie…such silliness from you. You don’t think that the countries you mention have gov’t regulation and involvement in their economies?
            You just helped me make my case as those countries,like all others,have plenty of gov’t controls and involvement. You should study
            a little before you take a firm stand on an issue you know little about.

          • DaveH

            Dumniso, if you had any idea what you are talking about, you may would have legs to disparage the ideas of others. You don’t. That is why you must resort to fabricated facts, innuendos, name-calling, condescencion, and the other manipulative tactics that are the hallmark of mentally deficient Liberals.

          • denniso

            DaveH…in your post higher up, it should read, ‘for those WHO do not know’. ‘That’ is used to refer to things, not people. Just thought I’d help you w/ your grammar a bit, especially since you’re attacking me specifically.

  • s c

    The mayor in Harrisburg is typical of the collective stupidity that has infested city and state governments for at least 20 years. They believe that ‘nothing can go wrong’ (because Uncle Scam says so). It’s related to the real estate paranoia that claims that real estate values ALWAYS rise.
    So much for prostitute bureaucrats. So much for responsibility. Some people just can’t get it through their heads that it’s better to be responsible. Of course, it helps if someone picks up the damned tab, too (unless you get caught). Maybe people like the Harrisburg mayor should have gone to Washington, where their inept ways would have fit in like a herd of pigs in a government sty. The sad part is that WE wind up paying for these scum bags and their criminal ways.

  • hflashman

    “The amount of debt owed by cities has doubled since 2000.”

    All together now…can we say “Bush/Cheney/GOP unfunded mandates”

    From the federalizationj of our schools with the “No Child Left Behind’ coup (which means all children are left behind), all the ay down through the variety of ‘feel good good PR’ policies Shrub and his gang of theives foisted on us and were chered by the robotic (currently known as the Tea Party and religious wacko’s making up the right)…

    We’re paying the tab for the wars, the graft, the sweetheart deals and the complete control of the GOP and Congress by the Big 6. The Big Corporations funded by Bush and the GOP…Ag, Banking, Defense, Steel, Energy, and Insurance.

    But go ahead and blame the Dems and Obama…it’s easy to deny responsibility if you ignore your past acts and support, ignore facts and reality, lie and yell loud enough.

    • American Citizen

      I thought Obama was going to fix all that. Oh, yeah, “I’m going to fundamentally change this country.” That was a scary statement and unfortunately, he’s brought some of it to bear.

      • hflashman

        Hard to argue facts. Since 1980, with the exception of the Clinton Era which brought us to the potential to address much of our economic ailments before Bush/Cheney finished the job Reagan began, our Middle Class and Small Businesses have been attacked and brought close to destruction by the GOP policies of creating a class rigid oligarchy rapng this nation blind.

        And you seem to think that this can be remedied in 18 months. You’re either lyin’ to yourself or are a certified fool. You choose which one it is.

        • Les

          Seems you can never just make a point without calling someone names. So who do you really work for?

          • hflashman

            you should read some of the names I’ve been called…well before calling a Spade a Spade. Do you disagree with my characterization of the previous writer?

        • Meteorlady

          How much is Soros paying for bloggers these days?

        • Matt

          Hflashman, you are the fool. I am sure you have your own business that you built up from nothing or are you just another delusional pot smoking baby boomer. Reagan took the proper steps to fix a broker system and make it better. The only thing you are right about is that it does take time. Reagan had an economics degree not a law degree. He took steps to get things back on track. He was not the “whiner-in-chief” that we have today. Interest rates were around 12-14% for homes, cars over 18%, the cold war was at its peak splitting the economy into two different systems, the military was weak and inapt to protect our interests around the world i.e. weak dollar and American confidence (hope) was really low. It did take time and Clinton picked the fruit off the trees that Reagan planted. Ten years from now we will be picking the splinters out of our butts from the briars that BHO has planted. Obama is not the great communicator he is the great fabricator… lies, lies and more lies. Clinton never had a job except he taught law for two years at the University of Arkansas. Never ran a business, never started a company, the only way he ever raised money was through taxes or talking it away of someone else. I have been in business for a while and believe me things were bad after 9-11. Who was responsible for that anyway…CLINTON. He was caught with his pants down and did nothing to stop the advances of Al Qaeda. Bombing US embassies, USS Cole, and attempts on US soil and nothing happened to Al Qaeda; those successes lead to the confidence they could pull off 9-11 and it nearly destroyed our economy. Business was bad and Bush did do the right things to turn it around he rallied the people to get out there and work and cut taxes which restored confidence. Oh, and the recent collapse, you can credit Clinton for that too. Forcing banks to loan people the money for homes they could not afford. They abandoned all historical guidelines of the past for home loans and then set up the sham of Fannie and Freddie to buy the bad loans from the bankers. Just another way to bring in socialism through the back door and making the Federal Reserve and its cronies more and more powerful to our demise. That’s the real truth!!

          • Meteorlady

            Nice post – thanks.

          • Richard

            Supply-side economics or “Reaganomics” have been proven to not work. You can’t just increase supply and expect demand. Free trade creates a loop that destroys nations and sovereignty. People buy the cheap imports, lose their jobs and then can’t buy much of anything but the cheap imports.I respected Reagan for being smart enough to curtail free trade when needed – something todays politico won’t do. I respected Reagan more than most politicians but was severely disappointed when he broke his promise to never allow a place for George Bush in government. I am sure the threat to him involved his family and not just himself or he would have faced it. I was certainly disappointed when he grew the deficit so large and now we know the Bush Team B cover-up and how the reasons were lies. Matt, the day will come when the real perpetrators of all those supposed Al Qaeda bombings will see daylight. Most if not all were Israeli false flag operations. Thank God Reagan pulled us out of the mess then when he learned that Israel knew the Marines were going to be bombed beforehand.
            I hate Bill Clinton but it is for supporting the Republican’s NAFTA. And, the recent collapse didn’t stem from mortgages it stemmed much more from Credit Default Swaps. Freddie and Fannie didn’t go buy bad derivatives either – the derivatives were fraudulent because the raters committed fraud. And the large increase in that derivative buying by them was because of pressure from the Bush administration. Both parties are out to screw America.

          • DaveH

            Richard,
            where did you get your economics education? I would ask for my money back if I were you.
            “Supply-side economics or “Reaganomics” have been proven to not work”? Oh, yeah? By who? Certainly not you.
            “You can’t just increase supply and expect demand”? No, but the prices would then drop and demand would increase.
            “Free trade creates a loop that destroys nations and sovereignty”? Easy for you to say. Can you back up that statement?
            And how would you know if Free Trade works or not? We haven’t had Free Trade in your lifetime. Oh, I know they say we have. But real Free Trade isn’t administered by Government Panels.
            A good first step in getting some economics education would be to read this free online book about the mistakes made during the depression by Big Government Loving FDR:
            http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf

          • DaveH

            For those Liberals who are reading-challenged:
            http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=258

          • Richard

            My education is broad and also from experience.
            Supply-side economics have been proven illegitimate by the economy itself.
            Demand increases require purchasing power – supply-side doesn’t allow for this. Demand isn’t created by supply. Demand will create supply.
            History has shown repeatedly that the nation on top when free trade begins falls. Learn some history.
            As to how FDR made decisions – if you knew history – After Gen. Butler went to Congress and FDR knew about the $30million (how much would that be now Mr. Economist?) offer to overthrow him his decisions were obviously controlled by the same people that have controlled economic thinking since.

          • DaveH

            First, Richard, you need to learn how to speak English. Then I can respond. I don’t understand DoubleSpeak.

          • DaveH

            So Richard says “History has shown repeatedly that the nation on top when free trade begins falls. Learn some history”.
            References, Richard? Any Liberal can make unsupported statements.
            And I just gave you some History, Richard. Did you read it? Of course, you didn’t. Liberals will read only what supports their ignorant beliefs.
            The Free Market is the most efficient trading system there is. Companies that provide the consumers with desirable choices succeed, and those that don’t fail. It trumps the hell out of having a bunch of ignorant elected officials making our decisions for us. Did you see the list of countries ranked by their economic freedom, Richard? Tell me that you would rather live in the countries at the bottom of the list. Actually, it would please me if you would.

          • DaveH

            Unfree Markets (protectionism) was one of the major causes of the Great Depression. It’s not hard to figure out that, when Government busybodies start meddling with the marketplace, there will be cronyism with their favorite business people. So the consumer is no longer the driving force in the marketplace. Rather it is the easily corrupted bureaucrat who decides which products succeed and which fail. And even if their intentions were purely moral, no person knows what is best for his fellow citizens. And I’m not even counting how much these “middlemen” cost the taxpayers. Our products would certainly be more affordable if we weren’t paying a large portion of our income for these middlemen to force their decisions on the rest of us.
            Here is another good treatment on the causes of the Great Depression. Duh, Richard, here’s some history:
            http://mises.org/daily/3515

          • Richard

            Firstly, I am not a liberal. Usually people that know me refer to me as a paleo-conservative. Throwing around the word liberal makes you feel important though, I understand. Did I read you history -sure.
            History is full of cases of the failures of free trade, such as in Britain and Germany where people were forced from rural areas to cities as beggars. The inevitable end result of free trade is always socialism. Other than socialism, the most probable result is war. I have no desire to teach you history. Like most “supposedly” educated conservatives of today the liberal professors got you to buy into false ideals like free trade. There was a day when Republicans knew better. I love how Republicans today love to associate themselves with Abraham Lincoln to try to win the black vote, yet will not associate themselves with the great policies he had. Do you even know them?

            The Free Market is the most efficient trading system there is. I agree. A free American market without free trade would provide security. A free American market with free trade will ensure that the standard of living in America will be lowered to trading partners’ standards. It won’t please me when your standard of living falls.

          • Richard

            The Great Depression was caused by panic. Panic created by J.P. Morgan (of Federal Reserve fame). Banks fell, the rich fell because they had been suckered by margin accounts and very swiftly all margin was called. The Fed creators were extremely smart in doing this. They bought up the banks for next to nothing very quickly. Less quickly, they bought up manufacturing and other industries as the economy fell.

          • Richard

            Like income taxes?
            The Constitution plainly states there will be no income tax. Because: the Federal Government was designed to be ran on tariff collections.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Daveh…great response to Richard. You know, I find it laughable that these folks don’t even understand, that the very system of capitalism, that they claim has failed, has not been in existence in America for DECADES!!!!

            They continue to confess the failures of their euphoric ideology, instituted for decades, in this COUNTRY, and have no idea, their doing it. i.e.; 100 years of failed progessive stupidity

            You can’t even get them to understand that SS, MEDICARE, MEDICAID, BAIL OUTS, Federal reserve, PRINTING FAKE MONEY, etc etc etc is mutually exclusive to a Republic and a capitalist system. If we had been operating in a pure capitalist system, within a republic system of governance, none of this one even be an issue for conversation because people would be too busy working and making money while minding THEIR OWN BUSINESS!

            Who’s the dummy now?

          • Richard

            a progressive nightmare,
            I never posted that capitalism has failed. SS, MEDICARE, MEDICAID, BAIL OUTS, Federal reserve, PRINTING FAKE MONEY, etc etc etc is absolutely not mutually exclusive to a Republic and a capitalist system. There are nations that are not Republics and nations that are not capitalist that print fake money and have socialist programs.

          • a progressive nightmare

            well, we need more socialist programs and get rid of all this capitalist crap.

          • Richard

            No, we need to eliminate free trade to allow jobs in America to eliminate the need for socialist programs.

          • vicki

            Hey guys. Ease up on Richard. He has a valid point. I don’t think he is aware of it but the point is quite valid.

            Richard says:
            “I never posted that capitalism has failed. SS, MEDICARE, MEDICAID, BAIL OUTS, Federal reserve, PRINTING FAKE MONEY, etc etc etc is absolutely not mutually exclusive to a Republic and a capitalist system. There are nations that are not Republics and nations that are not capitalist that print fake money and have socialist programs.”

            As clearly indicated by his post capitalism has NOT failed. All those government tamperings with captialism and even the failed programs that were NOT tampering clearly show the problem is big government not capitalism.

          • Richard

            Thanks vicki
            Big government is A problem – but not as big a problem as free trade.

          • DaveH

            Richard,
            First of all, you are a Liberal. Anybody who advocates Big Government is a Liberal.
            Second, you make a lot of unsupported statements. Any Liberal can do that. Show us some proof. I showed you proof. Otherwise, your statements are just Lip Service. I can say restricting Free Trade is a bad thing, and you can say it isn’t all day long. It proves nothing. You blame a countries woes on Free Trade. Tell us how that occurs? What is it about Free Trade that causes a countries economy to go bad?

          • Richard

            DaveH, as I have said – calling people liberals makes you feel good. Not once have I ever advocated big government, and I will not. You showed proof? That is completely laughable. Free trade has destroyed this country. Jobs are gone. Free trade – as I have explained – creates a self feeding destructive loop for the country that syarts on top. People buy cheap foreign goods, then the jobs go, then they have have to buy cheap foreign goods, then socialism. Other countries don’t buy our exports except grains. There are many mis-truths designed to make people think we have other exports:
            1 We export more with free trade to Canada and Mexico – yes we do – but to American owned car manufacturing – exports that used to be and should be used here.
            2 Some company exports to China – lets say GE for example – ok they do but they manufacture it in Mexico
            3 During the Clinton administration the way unemployment is calculated was changed. 9% right now? Hell no, 24%. Why? The jobs are gone.
            4 Free trade advocates say – this will force innovation and America will have to have new patented products. Well, do you know how large the Chinese economy is? 30% of it is based on the violation of intellectual property rights (and this type of thing certainly isn’t limited to China) so patents mean nothing.

            So come on DaveH tell us how America can make out with free trade – I have no problem telling you how we can’t.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Matt…great post!

        • DaveH

          “Hard to argue facts”, Flashman? So you don’t even try do you? You just fabricate those facts. Typical Liberal.
          You know nothing about Reagan, Ignorant Liberal. First of all, neither of the Bushs finished anything that Reagan accomplished. Mostly they helped to unravel what Reagan did. Reagan went into his first term with a lot of good Government-Shrinking ideas, but his own party hung on him like a ball and chain with the Ignorant advice that he needed to compromise with the Democrats. But the Democrats and Jimmy Carter got us to that desperate time in history with their vast expansion of regulations and spending. Why compromise with fools? Unfortunately, Reagan was successfully thwarted by the Republican RINOs in Congress.
          And Clinton did nothing for this country. He was too busy being the sexual-harrasser-in-chief to do any real thinking. The things that were accomplished during his time in office were accomplished by Congress:
          http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5656

          No doubt, Flashman, you would still be arguing that Obama hasn’t had enough time after 18 years. And you have the nerve to call others “fools”. The Enterprise could go Warp Speed in that vast empty space between your ears.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Daveh, I concur completely! This guy is nothing more than a progressive hack sitting in a tightly fitting cubicle somewhere in the basement of the WH. Probably a low grade attorney or equilvalent. He talks in circles and doesn’t even understand that he is doing it.

            He keeps bashing Bush and fails to understand that we agree with him. Bush was a progressive and his last actions as president proves it. It was the perfect setup for the KING of Progressives, OBLAMA, which is nothing more than BUSH on steroids x 10.

            A simple analogy as follows: Bush started a brush fire so we then send in OBLAMA with a tanker full of gas to put it out resulting in burning the entire country down. Makes good progressive sense to me!

            We still have two wars going on and progressive foolish spending and debt beyond our grandchildren’s vision. SHAZAAM! SMAAAAARRRRTTTT!

            Now, Flash doesn’t understand the consequences of all this??? It’s called the TP and a complete purge of the Rhinos in the GOP. What is it they don’t understand about this simple concept, eludes me.

            It is the progressive’s STUPID!

            You think we could type slower so he can read our comments?

          • Richard

            That Republican Congress did do some good things. But they really screwed the country with NAFTA. I was listening to some idiot the other day claiming that NAFTA increased our exports to Canada and Mexico. It did, he just wouldn’t mention that it was mostly car parts going to be put in cars that used to be built here.

          • DaveH

            Now you are calling people who disagree with you, Idiots? You definitely are a Liberal, Richard.
            Only people with unsupported ideas need to disparage others, like Liberals do.

          • DaveH

            What makes an economic community work well is whatever paves the way for the most efficient production of goods and services. Anything that impedes that efficiency weakens the economic community whether it be on a local level or on a world level. If you truly wanted our economy to be robust, you would advocate for the removal of those that throw up the impediments. Government meddlers, for instance. In a well-greased economy, there are always things that people can do for others to earn a living.
            The Government meddlers could be building cars, as an example, so that we could once again become competitive with foreign countries. Instead, they choose to get in the way of the people who are creating the goods and providing the services.
            Protectionism only allows our Companies to become fatter and lazier. Like any kind of protection (welfare, for example) allows individuals to forego the necessary improvements that they need to make.
            Read the several links that I provided. Learn something. Don’t behave like a useless Liberal.

      • s c

        American Citizen, if you’re not familiar with plants like ‘flush,’ he has one, basic standard when it comes to reality. That is, if it sounds good or feels good, it MUST be a “fact.” He loves Herr Obummer because Obummer hates America even more than he does.
        Between having a false “God” in the White House and Ben the Boob running the Fed, ‘flush’ is happier than a two-ton pig in a septic tank. People like ‘flush’ inspired Orwell to write 1984.

    • Brad

      Flash,

      Dude, your post is so out in left field it doesn’t come close to anything the article was expressing. Today we have small, medium and large cities not paying their bills; case in point, Vallejo, CA. filed for bankruptcy protection last year, over 3/4 of states have budget deficits in the billions. How do states/counties/cities pay their bills, through tax receipts and when jobs leave tax receipts go down. When business leaves, tax receipts are gone, when tourists don’t come back and spend their money tax receipts go down. Man you don’t have a clue what’s going on, all you want to do is complain GWB and his policy’s of the past, dude get over it, it’s 2010 take responsibility for yourself and do some research before posting your hate GWB.

      For the most part Hflashman, democrats tend to come up with bad legislation that seems good but in the long run hurt us, and time has shown us the truth. The vast majority of dems think its O.K. to spend other people’s money on feel good projects that never get off the ground, I can say the same thing about republicans also. Right now, you my friend are the “wako”, you bring nothing to the table but hate and for what reason; I have no idea, but you do and I’m not going to sit here and try to explain.

      If Obama does get his tax cut measure passed, the bill will hurt small businesses making more than 250K a year. So what incentives is Obama offering, tax breaks to small businesses hiring more people, not going to happen until consumer (spending) confidence picks up. Right now consumer confidence is at an all time low, the people are seeing what’s coming down the pipe and they don’t like it. I thought the Democratic Party was the party for the people they are showing me they are the party of “do as I say not as I do”. HCR, Flash do you have health care, your premiums going up again, the reason they’re going up is because of…wait for it…wait for it…Obama’s HCR act. The act didn’t take into account premiums going up to cover the 30 million slobs who can’t/won’t pay into the system, answer that question flash? Isn’t your answer tax the hell out of the rich, redistribute there hard earned money to the less fortunate, so the question is, you work hard for your money, do you want big brother coming in taking it and giving it to some one who didn’t work for it? I’m waiting for your answer.

      • hflashman

        “If Obama does get his tax cut measure passed, the bill will hurt small businesses making more than 250K a year.”

        Actually..the tax bill currently before Congress does not renew the tax breaks for individuals making more than $250 K. It creates tax breaks for small business and provides credit lines for small bsiness growth and development. I know of few small business owners making more than $250 K/year.

        HCR…check out the rise in premium cost before the HCR. That cannot be blamed on HCR. It can be blamed on the oligarchy maximizing their lock on Americans by charging not what actual costs and profits should be…but on how much there is for speding before the profits drop due to people dropping HC because it is economically uviable to maintain. Costs of premiums are going up now just as the credit card costs went up before the implementation date of the credit reform legislation. It’s not due to the marketplace costs..rather it’s d to the oligarchy hiking to price to maximize profits and set a standard “line’ from which to measure future requests for increases. I have critized the HCR as giving in too the mass hysteria generated by those having an interest in the final version…i.e. the Health Care Industry oligarchy.

        If HCR was to help small business, the Public option would have been in the original bill. Instead, we have to wait for the unConstitutional mandate for insurace is tossed out and the Public option inserted after the courts deal with the bill. Note I state “Option’…private insurance will be available for those opting out. THEN we will see real competition in the HC Industry.

        Don’t listen to what is told by the lobbyists and PR firms feeding thier robots what to scream…do the math, do the research. They’re counting on you not to.

        • Meteorlady

          HRC is not going to help this small business. I have been informed that my employee sponsored health insurance premiums are going up 17% just next year (they haven’t gone up for 4 years) because of the added coverage from the bill. I talked with my broker and he said that they will continue to rise until all this filters out. There are some 20 states where health insurers are asking for premium increases, some as high as 27% and their basis is the health care bill increase in coverages. You cannot possibly believe that we can insure high risk people for the same price and not raise premiums on low risk already insured people can you?

          Since 2008 I have had to lay off two people. I will be laying off another one or two next year because I can’t afford the premium increases and some of the depreciation and other rules that are changing. I am also getting regulated even though these regulations do nothing but put money in the wallets of someone that lobbied for them. You are wrong if you think that my business is not going to be taxed higher. You are wrong if you believe that I will hire more people for a one time tax break. I can’t afford it and don’t want it. If the public doesn’t have money to spend, my business will never grow. I am making less money than last year and the year before, therefore I am SPENDING LESS. I also lost a lot of my retirement through the large scale theft by the banking industry and Wall Street so am trying to save again for that.

        • Brad

          O.K. Flash,

          Lets look at the Health insurance business, it is spread out into regions across the US, specific health insurance company’s play in specific regions, are you following. That’s called a monopoly when you have one health insurer in one region they charge what ever they want they have no competition. Now what HCR does not cover, allowing other insurers to cross over those so called regions to offer health insurance at reduced rates. Went you bring in competition rates drop because you don’t want to loose your customer base, why do you think auto insurance rates are so low, because auto insurer A has business across all 50 states so they all compete for my business, driving down the cost of auto insurance.

          Another reason your health costs are so high, you use your health insurance every single time you go to the doctors office, if you paid the $150.00 visit out of your pocket you would go only when you were really sick. Do you use your auto insurance every time you take your car in for servise? Rates would be sky high.

          Another item not covered in HCR, “tort reform”, it costs doctor’s an arm and leg just to insure themselves against malpractice claims and yes I believe that bad doc’s should pay the price, but it affects all doctor’s. What will happen doctor’s will raise their rates to cover their costs just to do business.

          The so called public option where government operates as a health insurance business, my first question is does government ever produce anything no ithey don’t. It was tried in Hawaii for children, a good insurance plan that wasn’t very well thought out, it was suppose to be for poor children but the plan was never writen that way. Parents enrolled their children who could pay for other forms of medical insurance and it busted Hawaiis system in less than 3 year’s. You see when parent’s were being fiscally responsible they paid for the cheepest insurance they could find. Now put 300 million Americans on the public option it will break the system in a matter of days, but let’s go back and take a look at what the public option would have done to the health insurance industry. The health insurance industry would have collapsed millions more would be out of a job and this is what you want for America.

          Another plan that’s not addressed in HCR is health savings account it would allow the individual the abilaty to save for such emergency’s and pay for it without having to break one’s bank. In the end you would rather collapse an industry, increase governemnt controll on our lives and turning this great nation into a third world nation run by the UN!!!! That’s your answer, not mine and in November you will see who has the last word, the American public and we are mad as heck, we will affect change the type of change you and Obama will not like.

          • DaveH

            Excellent comment, Brad.

            I would like to add, though, that the public option wouldn’t break the system in a matter of days, because the Federal Government (unlike local governments) can just have more money printed. There would then be a slow but certain devaluation of the dollar until the dollar was worthless. Those people with cash savings would bear the brunt of the Government Folly until there were no more savings.

      • Bob

        The city Manager in Bell CA was making over $800,000. per year. Other administrators were making close to $500,000. When this was revealed they all resigned and mus t pay the money back. These SOB politicians are out of control. The town is overwhelmingly Mexican.

    • Meteorlady

      So I must be totally wrong in my thinking. I really actually thought that Clinton signed off on Free Trade with China and NAFTA and didn’t we loose hundreds of thousands of jobs from that little deal? Didn’t Clinton also sign the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, thus allowing banks a free reign again? Didn’t he also sign off on drug company advertising, thus adding millions to the cost of prescription drugs? Did he not also sign the Fair Housing Act and encourage Fannie and Freddie to go down the path they did, thus ultimately collapsing the housing market? He could have gotten bin Laden and knew he was a threat.

      I must really be dense on this because I truly though that Bush inherited all of that. I also was under the impression, after reading about the federal deficit and studying the US Treasury’s website, that Clinton signed the budget for the first full year of Bush’s presidency and that left Bush with a deficit of $133 BILLION dollars. Seems to me I remember Clinton counting Social Security Trust Fund income in order to show a surplus for the year he left office. Bush actually had the deficit coming down, even with both wars, until 2007 when the Democrats started their spending spree. I do blame Bush for not vetoing a lot of the spending bills and the budget.

      I must also be wrong when I read the Al Gore is heavily invested in something called CXX Exchange and Shorebank. Seems they were bailed out by us taxpayers. Goldmand-Sacs is going to handle the trading floor when the “Climate Change” bill get passed (hopefully never) and we all know who in Obama’s administration came from there. So other’s invested in these two entitles are: the Clintons, Obama, and a number of his cronies at the White House. Oh, I might have forgotten to mention that Obama’s share of the profits will be held in trust by the Joyce Foundation (estimates are around $8 Billion by the time he leaves office). And All Gore? His profit will be around $15 billion each YEAR. Some financial experts think this will be the largest “scam” or”legal heist” in world history. Obama’s cronies make the Mafia look like rank amateurs. They will make Bernie Madoff’s fraud look like penny ante stuff.

      • DaveH

        Good one, Lady.

      • dan az

        meteorlady
        Its really going to piss them off when we make them pay it back!

      • Bob

        Al Gores father, Senator Gore was pals with Industrialist Armand Hammer an avowed Communist.

    • a progressive nightmare

      flash, You can spout this progressive crap until the cows come home, but nobody at this point, I mean nobody, is buying it.

      You assert yourself as a business owner but I find it interesting that you spend the Lion’s share of your day blogging about politics. Who is running “your” business Flash? A government employee in the basement of the WH maybe.

      I find it very intersting that you and several other progressive hacks on this blog assert that you are business people but seem to be completely inept when it comes to basic economics and business principles. I would think that you are probably no more than a low grade attorney, working for Soros and King Obama, while sitting in your tightly fitting cubicle.

      You progressive hacks can spew your hatred for this country all you want but the people have been awakened and clearly understand how we got in this mess, created by a century of foolish progressive-marxist spending. We all at this point understand that Bush was a progressive, so your comments are self-defeating and proves OUR point, not yours. That is the primary catalyst that drives the TP movement and we are currently in the process of PURGING the GOP of the progressive RHINOS, so again, what is your point?

      Your free lifestlye on OUR dime is about to change, and change hard, time to wake up buddy and get to work. Maybe mind your own business would be a good start as well. Then you may possibly be able to focus on your own affairs and leave ours to us.

      We don’t need you or anyother progressive on this planet to tell us what to think, what to do or anything else for that matter. Heck, you people can’t manage your own affairs, much less ours, and the current state of our nation proves it!

      • dan az

        a progressive nightmare fits well said thanks!

  • libra

    ONE CONSOLATION–THERE ARE 26 STATES WHO ARE NOT PERMITTED TO FILE K-9 BANKRUPTCY. THAT IS THE TYPE OF BANKRUPTCY FOR STATES. I ALREADY HAVE A TAX FREE BOND IN BANKRUPTCY– THE 5 STAR RENNAISSANCE GRAND HOTEL IN ST. LOUIS. THIS MONSTER IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEIR CONVENTION CENTER. SINCE THESE CITY OFFICIALS THINK THAT IT IS O.K. TO THEFT THE SAVING OF BONDHOLDERS–I SHALL NEVER INVEST EVER AGAIN IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI OR THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS. THERE ARE 26 STATES WHO DO NOT PERMIT SUCH FIASCOS. THIS HOTEL ALSO GETS BAD REVIEWS FROM CUSTOMERS–IT IS RUN DOWN BY THE SEIU UNION. ANY FURTHER INVESTMENTS WILL BE MADE IN STATES NOT CONTROLLED BY SOCIAL PROGRESSIVE MARXISTS. STATES WITH DYNAMIC GOVERNMENTS AND ECONOMIES ARE WHERE MY HARD EARNED DOLLARS WILL BE SPENT. STATES LIKE TEXAS. DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND INVEST WISELY. IF THIS THEFT OF INVESTMENT DOLLARS CONTINUES–THERE GOES CONTRACT LAW PLUS LOTS OF OTHER VIOLATIONS. WHAT AN ATTITUDE FROM THE MAYOR OF HARRISBURG.. MAKES ME GLAD I FLED PENNSYLVANIA 30 YEARS AGO.

    • Meteorlady

      Hey – you could have been a bond holder in GM. The government gave them nothing and Obama called them “greedy” for wanting at least their money back. Instead the Unions gained and the people that were retired and invested lost.

      • a progressive nightmare

        Meteorlady, As I stated on an earlier subject, GM failed due to UNION GREED and our grandchildren will have the burden of paying for their UNEARNED lifestyles through this unconstitutional bailout crap. How could any business survive and be profitable when they are paying a union labor force six figures a year, plus HC and plus pensions, to build a car? Greed will get you everytime but not in this case. WHY?

        What should have happened was simple, free market forces should have been allowed to come to bear. Given that action, the company would have been forced into receivership and put on the auction block. Maybe an investment group would have purchased the entire company and maybe not. Either way, you would have ended up with ONE profitable company or many profitable companies. FREE MARKET BUSINESS PRINCIPLES 101, simply put. After that, these UNION THUGS could either make concessions for a reasonable salary or go get in the unemployment line. Their choice!

        Bottom line, the Unions ran the greatest car company in history in the ground and WE get to pay for it. PATHETIC! But one thing is for certain, this life-long GM owner will never purchase another GM product…period!

        • Richard

          GM failed becaused America hadn’t figured out that free trade doesn’t leave the country with the money they used to have to buy big autos.
          Unions have accountants – they may ask for more than a company can afford but they know what a company can afford and will settle for slightly less.

        • DaveH

          Nightmare,
          I’m so glad some more commenters are joining us that know what they are talking about. Stick around.

          • DaveH

            Something to think about:
            http://mises.org/daily/3484

          • a progressive nightmare

            Thanks fellow patriot and I will check out the link.

            Keep up the good work and let FREEDOM ring.

          • a progressive nightmare

            DaveH…great article….thanks.

      • Richard

        I was a bond holder in GM – nice 15% ones. GM under pressure from the Obummer admin offerred a 10% stake in the new reorganization and 15% more stake later. That was a much better deal than the bankruptcy judge would have given.

  • PissedoffAmerican

    So, when is the incinerator going to be repossesed for non-payment? If we regular folks are subject to reposessions, so should these municipalities. As for the way that Town Mayor thinks, I say that if only one town thinks this way occasionally its not too bad. However as it may be, we have many municipalities/governments thinking this way and its just a matter of time before we are a 2nd world nation due to financial reasons.

    We need to stop supporting all these 3rd world countries, lock down our borders and deport anyone that is not contributing to the welfare of this country.

    Take all the funds we spend saving other countries and supporting illegals that are dead weight and pay off our darn bills.

    I really get pissed with all this reckless spending and irresponsible ideas that are currently in motion.

  • Spence

    It’s not nearly as bad as people who decry Social Security by referring to the $2.4 trillion in Treasury Bonds as I.O.U.’s.

    Is this a case of undermining Social Security or the United States Government?

  • Howard Roark

    Add to the Muni defaults the comming commercial real estate bust and the fact that Obummer has destroyed confidence in the Corporation Bond. (when he unconstitutionally bailed out the auto makers he violated contract law by having the unions (his friends) paid first, and the bond holders paid last. under contract law the bond holders are always paid first. this is why people risk their capital in Corp. Bonds)

    This is yet another impeachable offense for Obummer. the list is growing very rapidly. should the Republicans take the House and Senate I personnally am going to call the RNC and demand that Obummer be empeached, removed from office and then be prosecuted in Federal Court on all charges.

    I believe that when totaled, Obummer’s total disreguard to law and the Constitution will rate the death penalty. (treason)

    • Meteorlady

      That would all be well and good but we get Biden. What a mess.

  • Paul

    I think politicians think that all this debt they and (we allowed them) is one day going to be forgiven by somebody? We are not a third world country (yet) we won’t get a do over. Our children will be saddled with these debts, we should all feel guilty especially the highly educated and far superior elected official who always do what’s best for the average working Joe?!

  • http://www.charter.net James Graham

    BY A 15 yr. Old SCHOOL KID IN ARIZONA

    New Pledge of Allegiance (TOTALLY AWESOME)!

    Since the Pledge of Allegiance
    And
    The Lord’s Prayer
    Are not allowed in most
    Public schools anymore
    Because the word ‘God’ is mentioned… ..
    A kid in Arizona wrote the attached

    NEW School prayer:

    Now I sit me down in school
    Where praying is against the rule
    For this great nation under God
    Finds mention of Him very odd.

    If scripture now the class recites,
    It violates the Bill of Rights.
    And anytime my head I bow
    Becomes a Federal matter now.

    Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
    That’s no offense; it’s a freedom scene..
    The law is specific, the law is precise.
    Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

    For praying in a public hall
    Might offend someone with no faith at all..
    In silence alone we must meditate,
    God’s name is prohibited by the state.

    We’re allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
    And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks…
    They’ve outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
    To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
    We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
    And the ‘unwed daddy,’ our Senior King.
    It’s ‘inappropriate’ to teach right from wrong,
    We’re taught that such ‘judgments’ do not belong..

    We can get our condoms and birth controls,
    Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles..
    But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
    No word of God must reach this crowd.

    It’s scary here I must confess,
    When chaos reigns the school’s a mess.
    So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
    Should I be shot; My soul please take!
    Amen

    If you aren’t ashamed to do this, Please pass this on..
    Jesus said, ‘If you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you before my Father.’

  • Santi

    [offensive post removed]

    • Les

      Why can’t we debate something without acting like lower life forms? You added nothing to the debate. State your facts and move on. Ignorant remarks about someone’s ID has nothing to do with this debate.

  • Howard Roark

    To Spence, ,,,There is no money in the phonry Social Security Trust Fund,

    The United States Supreme Court (SCOTUS) in the case of Helvering v. Davis (1937) the court held that Social Security was NOT AN INSURANCE PROGRAM saying “The proceeds of both employer and employee taxes (taxes not contributions) are to be PAID INTO THE TREASURY like any other internal revenue generally AND ARE NOT EARMARKED (set aside) IN ANY WAY.” in another SCOTUS case Flemming v. Nestor (1960)the court said “To engraft upon the Social Security system a concept of “accrued property rights” would deprive it of the flexibility and boldness in adjustment to ever-changing conditions which it demands.” again the court rejected any comparison of Social Security with insurance or an annuity.

    Now the Social Security Administration belatedly is trying clean up their decades of deception. on the Soc. Sec. web site they say “Entitlement to social security benefits IS NOT A CONTRACTUAL RIGHT.” adding ” there has been a temptation throughout the programs history for some people to suppose that their FICA payroll taxes entitle them to a benefit in a legal contractual sense. Congress CLEARLY HAD NO SUCH LIMITATION IN MIND WHEN CRAFTING THE LAW.” thats the Soc. Sec. Administrations dishonest blame evasion.

    So… Soc Sec is not insurance and no one has a right to collect it.

    The way that the criminal Congress set it up is this: they knew that the moneys collected under FICA taxes by law had to go into the general treasury like all other taxes: So to create the illusion of money in the phony trust fund they created a special IOU and it worked like this: Lets say that in a particular month the Govt took in 1000 dollars in FICA. 500 dollars is spent on current recipients, and 500 dollars goes into the treasury. (where it is spent on anything that the Congress desires)The criminal Congress then creates out of thin air a special 500 dollar IOU and places that into the Trust Fund.

    Every body is happy right: NOT SO FAST. when the fund finally reaches the point that it pays out more than it takes in the fund is going to have to redeem one or more of those IOU’s.

    Government has no way of producing real wealth. (Created in three basic ways…Agriculture Mining (includes oil) and manufacturing) real wealth is only created by the private sector. so to redeem an IOU the criminal Congress will have to Tax us yet again (this time to pay the phony interest the IOU is supposed to have earned) or they will print the money. (stealing from the citizen with inflation)

    I bust up with laughter in the fact that people like Charlie Rangel is still telling people that there is money in the trust fund.

    In short Social Security is a program. it is funded every year by Congress and it can be adjusted or completely eliminated by Congress and no one has a legal leg to stand on. Refute this if you can.

    • Meteorlady

      Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced Social Security (FICA) Program
      He promised:

      1.) That participation in the Program would be
      Completely voluntary – No longer Voluntary

      2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual incomes into the Program – Now it’s 7.65% on the first $90,000.00

      3.) That the money the participants elected to put into the Program would be deductible from their income for tax purposes each year – No longer tax deductible

      4.) That the money the participants put into the INDEPENDENT ‘Trust Fund’ rather than into the general operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program – Under Lydon Johnson the money was moved to the General Fund and Spent

      5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income – Under Clinton & Gore, up to 85% of your Social Security can be Taxed (Gore cast the deciding vote)

      Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month — and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to ‘put away’ — you may be interested in the following:

      The Democrats took Social Security from the independent ‘Trust Fund’ and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it. They eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding. The Democrats started taxing Social Security annuities. Best of, under Jimmy Carter, they started giving annuity payments to immigrant who moved into this country at age 65, even though they had never paid a dime into it.

      Then, after violating the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want to take your Social Security away.

  • atlas reborn

    I seem to understand that we the people are cannonfodder to the politicians. just screw everything up spend like a drunken sailor, then when everything colaspes tax everyone who has anything into total poverty so they can say everyone is equal except the politicians who will live off the sweat of the slaves. we will all be slaves to the dictators in power. you voted for it and you will get it right up the rear. I am not a dem or a rep, but I want to take back our country from these unamericans and re institute the Constitution. Lock and load and let get the job done. what else can we do??

  • Howard Roark

    I forgot to add that when someone invests in a Corporate bond, the money invested is then used by the Corp. to create real wealth. for example if I were to invest in International Harvestor the investment would produce tractors, combines etc.( manufacturing) these tractors and combines would then be used to grow and harvest food.(Agriculture)

    It should be obvious to anyone that it is imposible for investment in Government to produce anything.

    When you look around the country you see Military bases, Military Shipyards Depots etc. There are all liabilities monetarily. when you look at Washington D.C. 10 miles square the main thing that is produced is Politicians and Government Workers both of which are finacial liabilities. to raise money they could charge admission to the various monuments. Monuments they would not have if the States had not sent them the money to build them.

    It should becoming obvious to you that the Fed. Govt or any other Govt for that matter can not help anybody. the reason is simple. IT IS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING. without the people of the 50 states paying taxes the Governments would dry up and blow away.

    • dan az

      Howard
      If the government dosent produce anything then how is it that they sell military jets to other countries and where is the monies for that!

  • Meteorlady

    When I lived in Seattle the King Dome was built with bond and city money. When ceiling tiles started to fall, they invested millions to fix the roof (another bond). Then they wanted to voters to pay for a new stadium. It was voted down by the voters. So…. the state stepped in and took it over and all Washington taxpayers paid for a portion of it. Thus the new “Quest” field was built. The King Dome was not even paid for, nor was the work for the ceiling tiles. This all needs to stop. Sports stadiums are owned and operated (at a profit) by large investors or very rich elite owners. Hotels and convention centers are owned and operated by the rich elite and should be paid for by them. They need to step up and stop begging the American public to pay for their games and their buildings.

    As for spending more than you can afford, they will continue to do that as long as government bails them out. I now live in Texas and we get about 85% of the tax dollars we send to the Federal Government back. We have turned down Federal funds because they have strings attached and because they will eventually run out of money and we, Texas taxpayers, will have to pick up the tab. I guess our other 15% is going to states that are like California – can’t understand the concept of spending only what you can afford, won’t take care of their illegal problems and won’t get strict about welfare and health care fraud and abuse. Why should I pay for them? They made their bed they need to get out of it themselves.

  • Howard Roark

    Please do not fall for the old lie that this or that President or this or that Congress stole the money out of Soc. Sec.

    The first Soc Sec tax revenue was collected in 1937 the U.S. Supreme court ruled in 1937 that no FICA taxes could go into the Trust Fund and by law it must go into the treasiry like any other tax. There has never been any money in the trust fund.

    Pull up Helvering v. Davis and Flemming v. Nestor and read them for yourself. I realize that this is a shock for anyone learning this for the first time im in my 60′s and ive known about this since i was a young man.

    • Meteorlady

      So – I realized the court things happened, but die that make all the “lies” that FDR told OK? See my post above. Lies, lies and more lies. I remember my grandparent fighting against the enactment of this proposal. They believed it would eventually bankrupt us because the government would not keep it’s promise.

    • Meteorlady

      One question though – why did LBJ change the system through legislation?

      • s c

        Meteorlady, legislation in American politics is much like a double-edged sword. That is, if legislation is not fully debated and understood BEFORE it’s passed, then odds are that that legislation can never be reversed. Does that put LBJ in a clearer light for you?

    • DaveH

      Here is a pretty decent treatment of the history of Social Security:
      http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2006/506/infocus/p15.htm

      I take exception, though, to the statement that “Social Security has been touted as one of the great moral successes of the 20th century”.
      What is moral about taking somebody’s money away against their will? I call it theft. One of the great problems that has evolved in this country is the idea that people in the Government are immune from the laws of morality that the citizens are subject to. They are not. And a large part of the mess that we are currently in can be traced back to the voters letting Government get away with breaking those moral codes.

      • a progressive nightmare

        Daveh… I agree, nothing could be further from the truth. SS is nothing more than a dumb ponzi scheme. I wish I had a fraction of the money I paid in over the course of my professional working life. Fact is, I won’t collect 10 cents on the dollar, if that. Boy, What a GREAT investment! Can I sign up for some more gubberment backed “Security” programs???? PLEASEE??? I little, I need help, you take care of me big ole gubberment..pleasee. LOL!

        • denniso

          unless you’re a millionaire or die young you will take out more in SS
          than you paid in. It also helps widows w/kids so they can stay alive.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denniso, did your engineering degree or minor in economics lead you to that dumb conclusion? Typical progressive, make it up as you go. If it sounds good, then it must me true. Did that statement make you “Feel Good” while educating we dumb conservatives? I bet you are less than 28 years aged and hate men. Correct? Progressive Feminatz maybe? I bet math wasn’t your strongest subject much less logic and reasoning. Are your schooled in data research and analysis or is it just more convenient to make things up as you go?

          • Denniso

            Sorry fool, but I won my high school math award and took math all through college. Logic,reasoning? You rightwing, greedy and selfish extremists have no logic on your side of any argument…you sound like angry children who have had their marbles taken away and can’t
            imagine why,and so fall into the predictable temper tantrum…when you don’t get your way in our political system you start waving your big guns around and shouting your 8th grade cliches about ‘freedom’ and ‘constitution’ and ‘founders’, as if we are scared of a bunch of schoolyard bullies w/ no IQ’s. You tea party people are nothing but pathetic and ignorant at the same time.

            Have a good night…

          • a progressive nightmare

            denniso, Who put you in charge of MY marbles? AGAIN, SELF-APPOINTED DICTATORIAL FEMINATZ….CORRECT?

          • Denniso

            I don’t respond to Limbaugh cliches that are mindless…

  • DaveM

    The real problem is the crybaby voters who want all the stadiums and parks and librarys but feel they don’t have to pay for them. Municipatities should not be allowed to run a deficit.

    There was a small town about 10 miles from my house. Back in the 1980′s they realized about 10% of their annual budget was paying interest on operating costs. Town council came up with a proposal that if people payed their taxes one year ahead ie double taxes they would give a 10% property tax break. Everyone thought it was a great idea, especially the home owners. Everyone except the banks.The banks got a lawyer to tie up town council in law suits.

    • Meteorlady

      Ah…. lawyers, banks and government courts. Not a good combination for we the people.

  • atlas reborn

    when you violate the law of cause and effect, you get screwed. just like when try to fool mother nature she sends very bad things that we can not control. floods, huricanes, tidal waves, earthquakes, draughts, snd wild temperature fluxes.

  • DaveH
  • Richard

    The Constitution plainly states there will be no income tax. Because: the Federal Government was designed to be ran on tariff collections.

  • libra

    SOCIAL SECURITY IS IN TROUBLE BECAUSE OF THINGS LIKE AFDC–AID FOR FAMILIES AND DEPENDENT CHILDREN…WELFARE–THE PRES. J. CARTER OF PUTTING IMMIGRANTS–ELDERLY IMMIGRANTS ON SOC. SEC. AND MEDICARE AND MEDICAID FOR THE SUPPLEMENT PLUS THE HOUSING, FOOD STAMPS ETC, ETC, AD NAUSEUM. CAN’T ANY OF THESE FOLKS TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES? THE SYSTEM WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE GAMED BUT THERE ARE 7 GENERATIONS OF WELFARE FOLKS WHO BELIEVE THEY ARE ENTITLED TO LIVE OFF THE LABOR OF OTHERS—”OBAMA’S STASH” TODAY I READ OF A MAN FROM HONDURAS–3 DUI–2 DEPORTATIONS WHO KILLED A MAN WHO WAS DRIVING TO HIS HOTEL –IN TOWN ON A JOB.. THE ILLEGAL ALIEN DRIVING A LIN. NAV GUNNED IT THROUGH A RED LIGHT AS THE POLICE WERE IN PURSUIT. THE ILLEGAL WANTED TO GET TO HIS HOME SO HIS NAV. WOULD NOT BE CONFISCATED,HIT THE OTHER GENTLEMAN AND KILLED HIM ON THE SPOT. A T-BONE HIT BY THE NAV. SUV INTO A RENTAL CAR. AUSTIN IS A SANCTUARY CITY. THE ILLEGAL WAS WARNED BY FAMILY THAT NIGHT NOT TO DRIVE DRUNK–HIS BLOOD ALCOHOL WAS 2 AND A HALF TIMES OVER DRUNK. HE SAID HE WAS SORRY AFTER A JURY SENTENCED HIM TO 50 YEARS IN PRISON. HOW MANY MILLIONS WILL THAT COST FOR A TWENTY FIVE YEAR OLD TO BE INCARCERATED FOR 50 YEARS. IS THIS NOT INSANITY ON THE PART OF POLITICAL OFFICIALS WHO PROTECT ILLEGAL ALIENS? SANCTUARY CITIES SHOULD BE OUTLAWED AND ANY OFFICIAL PROTECTING ILLEGAL ALIEN CRIMINALS SHOULD GO TO JAIL.

  • http://gmail i41

    DaveM, you sure know how the piss ant, overeducated crybaby, non productive, jackasses who are mostly are socialist democrats beleive and behave. If 90% of the taxpayers money was stopped being spent on waste like, the billions for welfare for lazy fat reared sluts shelling out kids. Not holding the sires responsible until kids are age 21, welfare payments for owning idle farm ground and being paid for decades. Over paying the bloated governement workers too much, who are non productive and do very little. Creating excessive idle parks acreages, that no one uses or can be maintained, look at the money spent on all social programs. Whick amount to 40 cents of every dollar of taxes. Ever notice the whining about what CEO’s get for wages, but don’t hear a sqeek what felony sports figures demand and the moronic public pays to cover the players costs. The public picks up the idoitic costs to cover the stadiums. Do those pukes get taxed their fair share, same as Onumnutts and his “books” and wages? Next time some idoit start talking sports, ask how many sports teams are all convicted felons several times over. About like the rappers and puke black enertainers.

    • Denniso

      MINDLESS!!!!

      • DaveH

        Spoken by somebody who is personally-acquainted with mindlessness.

        • a progressive nightmare

          daveh, she is racist and mindless… wow, what a great combination. Make a good progressive government employee, maybe?

  • MikeN

    fast eddie rendel says Pa. is running budget deficits. No money for infrastructure repairs. Meanwhile he is offerring $20,000,000 for a new baseball stadium in Lackawanna Co. He bailed out Harrisburg. He wants to raise income taxes, fuel taxes, vehicle registrtion fees, and who knows what else his deviate little mind will dream up. No wonder the political elitist from both parties fear the Tea Party movement. Common sense is what motivates the Tea Party. We will eventually take control of govt. from the federal level all the way down to the local level. When the Politicians and the media badmouth us the way they do, It means they are worried and we are winning.

    Keep the faith and keep up the pressure!

    • Denniso

      The tea party is doomedn by it’s false sense of increasing power w/in their little, white group of angry, pampered, middle aged grumps…

      • Denniso

        ‘doomed’

        • MikeN

          Your racism blinds you to the fact that the tea party is made up of people from all races and cultures with the common goal of reclaiming the American dream.

      • a progressive nightmare

        Denniso,, does this mean since I am a black TP member that I must join the progressives now???? Oh, CRAP! I will need to lower my IQ a bit.

        • denniso

          The tea party is about 95% white,Repub, middle and upper class…

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denisso, Well, I guess that puts me in the 5%. I would rather be there, with hard working, Country loving, GOD loving and COLOR BLIND folks, than the likes of you. A racist, who see’s things through a very narrow and childish mind. In case you haven’t been in the loop, the progressive race card is VOID and NULL, in America.

          • Denniso

            You haven’t heard or watched? A sizeable % of the tea party is racist.
            Is that news to you?

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denniso, Well, if that were the case, looks like you would fit it pretty well. You thinking about joining?

  • Viktor Leben

    If you people are going to survive the municipal bond defaults I sure would check out the website recommended. Get all the “free” info you can. It could make all the difference between starving or eating.

    All the capitalist ideology all of you have been chattering about. It’s nothing new. What we have here is a “failure” to “communicate” .. Heh Heh !

    Get a copy of the movie 1975 movie Rollerball .. the old one with John Houseman ! Talk about corporate fascism . Here’s a look at the new world we are now in. Y’all better get tough …

    Think total capitalism .. total competition .. it’s a multi layer survival strategy. There will always be the underground economy – don’t get caught ! It’s like one of them Ayn Rand novels, like Atlas Shrugged – the steel producer guy is selling structural forms on the black market to keep a friend in business. It’s coming down to who is honest and who is going to rip you off.

  • atlas reborn

    dinniso and miken I want you to think and read the constitution then listen to what the tea party is all about. you will find that the constitution is what they want us to follow. the fed is to collect taxes on tarriffs, the states were to tax a direct tax on the people. both taxes were designed to serve the needs of the government. the federal duties were to keep the states working together and to protect them from outside threats form foriegn countries, and pirates, and maraiders. the states were to run their states as they wished as long as they did not violate the constitution.the people were superior to all. are the tea parties trying to take over the federal government? are they trying to tell you what you can and cant do? are they trying to tell you what you can or can not say, or deprive you of freedom of speach? now do they try to stop and raise issues of our freedom? you will find they are trying to get us to go back to the constitution and operate legally under the constitution. are they trying to reinstitute slavery? no they are not. we became the greatest country under the constitution. then in 1865 the federal government violated the constitution and became superior to the states in violation of the constitution. we then started a slow decline that picked up speed with every violation of the founding fathers constitution. today we are serfs of the federal government. is that what you want? well thats what you have now. we need to reclaim our rights and constitution. that is the tea partys desire. is that not what we all want?

    • Viktor Leben

      Atlas Reborn,

      Sounds good to me. But it probably won’t happen. The guys on top are smarter – the politicians – and they aren’t going to give up a good thing. Right ?

      Slavery is here right now .. it’s called Tax Slavery. The government inflates the currency/raises taxes.

      The Founding Fathers are all dead (?) Right ? Anyhow the Founding Fathers wouldn’t want us for descendants ! Right ?

      The Tea Party isn’t going to make it. It’s just going to be a few more Repubs, and then they are going to start another war and borrow more money from the Fed ..Right ?

      What are you going to do as an individual, Atlas ? That’s what matters. It’s you against the world … I think you’ll going to lose ?
      Ha Ha !! Why don’t you pull yourself together. Obama wants cybersecurity people who are certified – or join Obama’s brown Shirt army….

  • John Woodbury

    Denniso, How stupid are you? OH, that is right you are a libtard. Well, you and the Chief libtard are in for a rude awaking, you listened to discredited economics and not conservative economics in school, if you ever went. The whole run up of our information economy was built on a lie. Real GNP depend on manufacturing, aka China. The housing bubble is a sand pit that just keeps sucking more and more money (real wealth) into it. If you think this is just scaring the choir, you are really dumb, with no hope at all. As soon as the housing bubble burst I sold all my municipal bonds as fast as I could as I saw this end coming like a freight train. All cities feasted and gorged at the housing boom, yet they still could not get enough money for every one’s brother and cousin; so they took money upfront, with a promise to repay. Now the housing market is dropping like a rock and their tax base is sinking faster then the Titanic, they will not be able to repay that debt, as we all have seen what happens to massive default. Some bonds are good, most will belly up and real wealth will disappear, again. Next the US will default, see the recent US bond sale. That will really cause the dodo to hit the fan. All the people in other countries that will at first be happy the US got this will again find their lives will be also affected. If the American consumer does not consume then many other countries economies are coming down as well. So Denniso, please get a real education before piping off in here.

    • denniso

      I guess Bob Livingston was wrong when he said that if I remained civil
      that others here would respond in a civil manner…guess not.

      I have a minor in econ…

      • a progressive nightmare

        BS! You couldn’t pass an 8th grade exam in economics. Do yourself a favor, if you want to learn economics, then follow Thomas Sowell, he is brilliant, and, in case you don’t know, he is a “Black Man”.

        SHAZAAMMMMM!!!! How could he possibly be so smart and a conservative?????? How could a “Black Man” have such a HIGH IQ??

        Keep your progressive racist crap to yourself!

        Who’s the DUMMMY now? GROW UP!

        • Denniso

          And a major in engineering…

          • a progressive nightmare

            LOL!!!!

          • denniso

            Keep showing us your ignorance….

        • a progressive nightmare

          Denniso, As I stated earlier, if we extracted your brain and put in a Jay-bird, it would flip upside down and fly backwards. Do you understand just how foolish your statements are? Are you 25 years aged yet?

          • Denniso

            You can’t make a reasoned argument supporting your wacko beliefs,so you resort to personal attacks…pretty shallow and doesn’t make your side look very good. But, I realize that the rightwing has NO ideas, other than the failed crap of Cheny/Bush, so you can’t do much except attack me personally. Do I care? No…

          • a progressive nightmare

            Denisso, Neither do I and Bush was nothing more than a progressive-lite, so thank you for making my case. Again, J-bird friend, you don’t have enough brains or common sense to comprehend what this conversation is about.

          • Denniso

            What a freaking joke! Bush was so far from being any sort of ‘progressive’ it’s not even funny…’progressive lite’??? God above, you’re really showing your ignorance now. Bush was a corporatist and essentially funnelled money to the energy industry as well as the military industrial complex. He rolled back regulations almost everywhere,to the detriment of the country.He tried to privatise SS,cut taxes on the wealthy…the only thing he did thaat could be called ‘progressive’ was the medicare drug plan, and he only did that to get the votes of the older population.

            So, if Bush was ‘progressive lite’,then what was your hero Reagan,who governed much like Bush. You don’t understand the political definitions and their relative positions in our system…you think the martians Palin,Angle,O’Donnell,Limbaugh,Beck,Savage, are normal people w/ responsible views,when actually they are kooks and clueless
            bomb throwers whao represent about 30% of the country.

          • a progressive nightmare

            Dennisso said: the only thing he did thaat could be called ‘progressive’ was the medicare drug plan, and he only did that to get the votes of the older population.

            Thank you again for making my case, I think “Progressive-lite” was a very fitting label for Mr. Bush. You failed to mention BUSH allowing this on-going invasion from Mexico which violates art 4 sec 4. I could name numerous other “Progressive” anti-american things that Bush did as well.

            Now, what is the difference between Bush trying to buy the elderly’s vote and Obama trying to buy the Union vote, specifically the GM bailout, where he void contracts, fired the CEO and basically usurped the constitution of the USA. This is what progressives do HUNNIE, they usurp our constitution with OUR money to stay in POWER! That’s all progressives do is BUY VOTES with others folks money!

            Again, your just another educated idiot that doesn’t have enough common sense to find your butt with both hands.

          • Denniso

            Bob Livingston said I should stay civil to you fools, so thanks for your good words and courteous tone.

  • MARCH

    Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the market ; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses. Capitalism is not a form of government. The USA started out as a Representative Democracy. Lately it seems we have become a plutocracy. Can a Representative Democracy operate under Laissez-faire capitalism? Or without government intervention will we wind up with social darwinism? Herbert Spencer, the father of Social Darwinism wrote his theory about the same time as Karl Marx and they are both buried in the same cemetery. Both wrote about different ends of the economic spectrum. The extreme ends of the economic spectrum.

  • Robert

    State and Local Governments just like Washington are out of control. Sooner or later the lawyers will figure out a way to sue all for their unpaid depts. I figure China will soon forclose on the US and own most Government lands. So too will this happen to States and Municipalities. And the World Court will uphold these suits. Then the real war will start. Thank you so much all you politicans, you managed to destroy our great Republic in a blink of the eye. Aren’t you all proud of yourselves. Now go out ther and campaign for your re-election and make your BS promises. There all a lot of fools out there that buy your story, hook, line and sinker. This November, vote all these fools out and elect fresh blood. I’m sure the new comers can’t do any more damage than already has been done.

  • http://MSN.com New world

    White Russians, Germans, French, British should live in Africa and then Africa become prosperous, because of smartest white people.

  • jopa

    In response to an above comment GM failed when Bush was in office, Obama gave them a loan they are repaying and that will provide jobs for our grandchildren.Bush was in office for eight years did’t they send any regulators or have any oversight on Fannie or Freddie.Oh yeh thats right big business does’nt need anyone watching over them.NAFTA was signed off by Clinton but the republicans controlled the house and senate and it was there bill.

  • Andy K.

    We got the Government we deserve. Happens for voting for worthless individuals to represent us. Once the people get involved in the representation i.e. know the constitution, we might end up with a better government. Otherwise just “soak it up”.

    • Denniso

      I presume you mean people like the inept Bush and evil,corrupt Cheny?
      Maybe you mean pretenders like Palin who came close to being second in line to the presidency? Now the rightwing is putting foward more incompetent,uneducated candidates who will hopefully be renounced by the smarter voters…

      • a progressive nightmare

        Denniso, Aftwe 13 trillion in debt and a country going to hell in a handbasket, I think we will stick with the “Less” educated folks. Hopefully you never get elected for anything outside of garbage collection and distribution.

        Progressive stupidity, nothing more, nothing less.

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