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A Minority of One

September 2, 2010 by  

A Minority of One

As President Barack Obama continues to transform the United States into a socialist hell, yet another poke in the eye is the National Mediation Board’s recent proposal to make it easier for airline and railroad workers to unionize.

For 75 years the rule has been that in order for any class of workers (e.g., pilots) employed by an airline or railroad to unionize, a majority of all employees in that class have to vote for unionization. But the proposed new rule would require only that a majority of employees who actually vote on the question of unionization would be needed to unionize.

All Democrats love unions; Republican progressives love unions; and even many conservatives believe that a worker should be allowed to join a union voluntarily, so long as those who do not want to join the union are not forced to do so.

Which probably makes me a minority of one. Why? Because not only do I believe that workers do not have a right to unionize a company through tyranny of the majority, I don’t believe that any worker has a right to join a union without the consent of his employer.

It is a basic tenet of libertarian-centered conservatism that without property rights, no other rights are possible. Unfortunately, most people do not understand this fundamental concept. They view property only as inanimate matter, separate and apart from a person’s life. They cannot seem to make the connection between the two.

In actual fact, they are so connected that one is virtually an extension of the other. How can one separate a person’s life from his property? If you took everything that an individual owned, the fact is that he would not own his own life because whenever he attempted to create something for his personal gain, the fruits of his labor could again be confiscated.

The same is true of purchasing property. The money used to make a purchase presumably was earned through the purchaser’s efforts. That makes the money an extension of his life and, therefore, the same would be true of anything purchased with that money. No matter what the circumstances, when a person’s property rights are violated, his freedom is violated.

A libertarian-centered conservative (i.e., a true conservative) believes that no one has a right to any other person’s property, which includes both his body and everything he owns. Once this concept is understood it would be proper to say that, in reality, all crime is based on trespassing on the property of an owner.

When people make “humanitarian” statements about human rights being more important than property rights they are, in a sense, correct. That’s because human rights include property rights, as well as all other rights of man.

A man has the right to dispose of his life and his property in any way he chooses, without interference from others. By the same token, he has no right to dispose of any other person’s life or property, no matter what his personal rationalizations may be.

As explained in The Fundamentals of Liberty by Robert LeFevre, there are only three possible ways to view property:

  1. Anyone may take anyone else’s property whenever he pleases.
  2. Some people may take the property of other people whenever they please.
  3. No one may ever take anyone else’s property without his permission.

It is self-evident to anyone who believes in individual liberty that the only morally valid way to view property is No. 3. Likewise, no one has a right to tell a property owner (property being land, buildings, a business or anything else that a person may own) what he can or cannot do with his property.

Take a business, for example. It belongs to the owner, whether he started the business himself or bought it from someone else. No one has a right to take any part of someone else’s business, nor do they have a right to tell him what he can and cannot do with his business.

If a business is a public company, it is the property of a large number of people (shareholders). Thus, size is irrelevant when it comes to property rights. When property rights are violated against a multinational corporation as opposed to a mom-and-pop business, it simply means that far more people become victims of government aggression. It is a moral absurdity to believe that bigness validates aggression.

Therefore, as a minority of one, I am compelled to say that regardless of the size of a business, the only way unionization is morally valid is if the owner of that business voluntarily agrees to it. Why? Because it’s his business! It’s his property! And it is his human right to set the rules for his own property!

In a truly free society, a worker has one inalienable, overpowering right with regard to his job: He can quit at any time. He is not a slave, so his employer cannot chain him to his work. If he wants to belong to a union he is free to search for employment with a company that allows workers to unionize.

The fact that many people reading this article will find my comments to be extreme speaks only to how far down the road toward socialism we have traveled. We no longer respect property rights, especially when the property is a business. Generations have been brainwashed into believing that abstract notions such as “the good of society” and “social justice” are more important than private ownership.

The proposed new ruling by the National Mediation Board opens a debate over the issue of whether 75 percent of the overall majority of workers in a given class should be required to unionize an airline or railroad, or just 75 percent of those who actually participate in voting on the question. But, in reality, the debate is nothing more than a distraction. The real debate should be over whether or not employees should be allowed to unionize at all without the consent of the owner.

This is precisely the kind of issue that has caused conservatives to lose their way over the years. Until politicians have the courage to confront an issue such as unionization head on and stop buying into debates about whether to move further to the left or stick to what has become the status-quo left, America will continue its acceleration toward total collapse — both morally and economically.

It will be interesting to see if anyone reading this article has a strong enough belief in the absolute sanctity of property rights to agree with what I’ve said here. That would be nice, because it would instantly elevate me to the status of being part of a minority of two.

–Robert Ringer

Robert Ringer

is a New York Times #1 bestselling author and host of the highly acclaimed Liberty Education Interview Series, which features interviews with top political, economic, and social leaders. He has appeared on Fox News, Fox Business, The Tonight Show, Today, The Dennis Miller Show, Good Morning America, The Lars Larson Show, ABC Nightline, and The Charlie Rose Show, and has been the subject of feature articles in such major publications as Time, People, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Barron's, and The New York Times. To sign up for his one-of-a-kind, pro-liberty e-letter, A Voice of Sanity, Click Here.

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  • DaveH

    I think, Robert, that ownership of one’s body means that one may freely join with others to form a Union. But that Union may only choose to leave employment as a group if their demands are not met. They may not legitimately interfere with the customers or the potential replacement employees. I realize that would exclude most if not all current Unions, but it would be consistent with Freedom.

    • Bruce D.

      Good point as always DaveH.

      • Denniso

        The only power workers have is the right to withhold their labor. If one worker does so there is no effect…if all or most of the workers do so they can bargain for better working conditions and pay. That is all unions do and w/o that leverage workers are powerless in the face of big business…unions led the the way to the largest middle class the world has ever seen, after WW 2.

        • DaveH

          Yeah, and if the Mafia only had one member, they wouldn’t have been as dangerous either. So, Liberals can rationalize that Companies abuse people by giving them a job, which they ask for and take voluntarily. But Unions are noble for forming a gang and coercing the employers into paying more and allowing them to work less? Liberals can rationalize anything, as long as it benefits them. Greedy, immoral people.
          We would be a much wealthier nation had it not been for Unions. Every drop in productivity and every increase in costs as a result of Union activity affects all of us.

          • Larry Gillihan

            Dave: When I was a young man,my parents worked at the local General Electric plant. The company treated the employees well, and nobody had any complaints. The union tried several times to “unionize” the plant, but the employees rejected it. Eventually, the union won. After that, the company only gave the employees what it was legally required to give. The employees lost more than they gained.
            A union is a good idea if the leaders of the union are honest and are on the people’s side, but there are few unions, if any, who fit that description. The main purpose of most unions these days is to make money for the union leaders and get control over the company.
            Many years ago, I was a member of the musicians’ union. They told me I couldn’t hire any non-union musicians for my band, and I couldn’t play any clubs that would not agree to hire only union musicians. I told them they weren’t running my business, and I would hire anybody I wanted to hire and play anywhere I could get a job, and they should take their union and cram it. I made a lot more money without the union,and had a lot less problems.

          • Denniso

            Workers form a union, they strike for better conditions, the company can fire all of them if it wants to. The company is not coerced…they’re free to do what they choose.

            Unions raised the working conditions for most people in this country
            50 yrs ago by having enough workers involved to give them leverage across the workplace,unionized or not. So, sure, it was and still is possible to not be part of a union and enjoy the benefits of higher wages and good working conditions…but those better conditions would not exist w/o the pressure of organized workers willing to put their jobs and sometimes lives on the line.

            All you have to do is look at history…look at the terrible wages and working conditions in this country before unions started
            fighting back against industry,which had held all the power to underpay and essentially enslave workers,until workers organised.
            Read some history rather listening to Limbaugh,Beck and Savage or Palin.

          • coal miner

            1

          • Chickentrain

            If you think union’s are a good idea, take a look at what the teacher’s union has done to education in this country.

          • coal miner

            one seven

          • http://, Vippy

            No wonder why the USA are in such a mess when the people lack basic understanding. Have you forgotten about Henry Ford and his goons, how he treated his workers, provided his own housing, his own grocery store, and some who protested too much were snuffed out and the rest, if lucky, was beaten? Unions in Germany are great, the car industry pays 3 and 4 times as much as they do here and we all know about their excellent benefits and it does not break the country! Let the rich people fight their battles not you. I was management and if we did not have the union I can tell you we would have acted much like the store owners in town who have a register shortage and then make the cashier make up the difference (gas drive offs are a good example). Or we have them stand at the register until it is time to clock out but now they still have to balance their drawer. You have no idea. How is it possible that retail is working on holidays but don’t have to pay holiday pay or overtime? Why is it tha it American Workers eat their own when times get rough. Keep fighting the battles for the rich!

        • Jerry D

          My experience with unions was not a good one. Most of the time, slackards used the union to keep their jobs when they should have been fired. It took at least half again as many people to do the jobs in the mill because almost everything was put before the union. I and other friends were called on the carpet by the shop steward for working too hard and making others look bad. By the way, I never received a single paycheck from the union, so my loyalty was to the outfit that paid me. All the union ever did for me was to take my dues.

          • http://, Vippy

            Well, because you have had a bad experience we knock the whole deal? I have had bad dealings with the union but it was due to a very frightening and power hungry union president and a cowardly organization I worked for who did not want to get involved but I would never condemn the union because as a manager I know if it had not been for the unions our employees would have been taken advantage of. A few rotten apples, and we have them everywhere, don’t spoil the whole idea. Why is it all about the “Me” Factor?

        • http://www.kjnf.net jimmimax

          Wrong! If you studied economics in America after WW2 like my dad who came home from the Army opened a restaurant in San Francisco as millions of other veterans opened family business’s, the nation was booming with small medium and large employer’s and the need for employee’s was great, there was no space available in San Francisco for new business’s because of what was a boom! So unions were merely a threat to society, most were thugs Like this Trumke may have spelled his name wrong, heard of Jimmy Hoffa he had whole families terminated, heard of Gotti, he had hundreds of people terminated,and then there were the five burroughs in New York each family had people terminated, wonderful these mafia union thugs! there are nothing but evil people running the unions, card check, do you know what that is? Do you support that? Then you are no different than the unions of the Soviet Union that took control of Russia in 1917, why do you think they called it the Soviet Union? Think before you answer, your freedom may be at stake! The unions are no good and that is the bottom line!

        • Vippy

          So true! Unions fight for us, the little person on the totem pole!.
          Just because there are bad people everywhere, even in the unions, we
          have to know who butters our bread!

    • 45caliber

      I agree. If you don’t want to work somewhere due to some reason the owner won’t fix, then quit and go somewhere else. Don’t try to destroy the business the owner has (destroy his property) and don’t try to destroy the chances of someone else to work if they are willing to overlook the reason you won’t work there.

      • cemott3rd

        Owning property, whether it be land and/or a business doesn’t make you king of that realm. You must still adhere to the laws of the land, safety standards, wage standards, respect civil rights etc. You even have to follow local code enforcments, enviromental codes, try burying toxic waste on your property. As for letting everyone quit if they are not willing to do it for the wage the employer was paying, well that is what happened in most of the restaurant kitchens in this country, so they hired illegal aliens when tradesmen like me refused to work for a less than what most of us considered a fair wage.

        • Andy Reid

          What a great argument to do something about illegal immigration

    • Dave

      Also, the employees of a company are not company property. They are not owned by the company. They have the freedom to decide to whatever they want as long as they do their jobs well. Who are you to say they can’t unionize. I am a liberal but I don’t think all unions are warranted but some are necessary. Look what happens in a coal mine when there is no union. Profit becomes the prime motivator by the owner who neglects the safety of his employees who have no recourse.

      • DaveH

        Did I say you couldn’t join a Union?
        And to your last point – everybody has their own self-interests at heart, whether they be Unions or Companies or Government employees or anybody else.

        • Denniso

          Spoken like a true believer in Ayn Rand, though wrong. There are millions of people around the world who care about more than just their self interest. They care about their city,their community,neighbors,the environment and the health of the entire planet.
          You’re speaking for the selfish,greedy and self absorbed people, of whom we have too many in this country…that may be our downfall.

      • Todd

        You have every right to join a union. I will support your right to do what you want with YOUR property. You do NOT have a right to work in a place of employment if the owner doesn’t want to employ you. Perhaps you’d grasp it better if things were reversed so you could walk a mile, so to speak: You need your lawn cut. You choose to employ a gardener to handle that job. After a couple of weeks, your gardener decides he wants a raise, paid vacation, and for you to pay for his health insurance and 401k contributions. So, given your treatment of others’ rights, you must be fine with agreeing to at least some of the demands. Should you decide to not modify the original employment agreement, then what? If you don’t agree, he’ll not only not tend your yard, he’ll actively prevent others, perhaps even you, from tending to it. So, do you still think it is a good idea to give over control of your property to others who: A. didn’t take a risk in obtaining the property (signing a mortgage, spending hard earned dollars, etc…) and B: have only their own, and not your interests in minds?

        • http://www.pldavis.mysite.com Peter Davis

          Very well said, Todd. No company should be forced to recognize any unionization of company employees. Unions are the cause of a great deal of America’s problems. Is it any wonder that unions ALWAYS support the public office candidate that is bad for “We, the People.”

          • Rufus John Wilson

            John Says: Unions are no good for any one. Your Dues have to be paid by your friends and relatives. The union worker in many cases flag work that will cause lot of damage and kill people. (I KNOW!)Their work is no better than anyone else. The person that hires you is responsible to hire people he knows he can trust to do the work without any doubt.
            And any time you are not able to do your job you should QUIT.
            We do not need unions. We never did need unions. I will never again work under a Union. I know what they have done to our U.S.A. and it is not A Good Picture, You can see for yourself all you need to do is drive around through out our States. as you do think About Drugs, Driving between Drunk Drivers, Big Trucks, and your own Life.
            Cars driving 70 MPH Meeting cars etc coming toward you at speeds you do not know could have a Heart Problem and hit you head on. Both Vehicles could Have been made by UNION LABOR any thing could go wrong with either Vehicle.

      • Keith

        Employees may have a right to unionize but an employer should also have the right to choose weather or not to employ union employees.

        • Denniso

          Companies don’t have to hire anyone they don’t want to, but if most steel workers,commercial carpenters,electricians and others are unionized then that’s who the companies will hire. But they aren’t forced to hire them,they could choose to hire hack workers who aren’t skilled or trained. Their choice.

          • Jana

            Union workers are very skilled—-at one thing and don’t dare ask them to do another mans job. Nope, they won’t do it. I don’t like working with anyone that has ever been in a union. They only want to do one little thing and with a smart attitude won’t do any more either. They are useless. Then they want their breaks and can’t work too hard. HMPH, UNIONS NO!!!

            They used to have a purpose, and in some places they still might, but in MOST places they will ruin the work place. Look at the auto industry now. One of the biggest problems they have are present and past union workers. If the unions were really for the employee, then the big union organizers would not be so rich, and would not act like the mafia.

    • http://www.appraisalgroupllc.net Bryan

      Personal freedom extends to the employer as well. I do beleive that a union could be formed outside of an employers premisis, however the employer could make it a terminable offense to participate in a union during working hours thereby rejecting the union and causing each individual to be responsible for his own actions. The employee always has the freedom to reject terms of employment by ending the employment relationship. The problem with unions is that they are a middle man mediator who expects compesation for the duties of mediation/protection. I think that in most cases unions are nothing more than a protection racket. I also tbeleive that most non union companies treat their employees as good or better than a union counterpart. People who join unions usually do so because the union existed prior to their employment and they were forced to join. Therefore the union is taking your freedom away. Unions do not promote responsibility they promote passivity while offering protection for less than enthusiastic work ethics.

    • http://na RussG

      Let’s just go back to the 1940″s for conversations sake.There really was a time, when some company’s were treating people like a communist country and Unions were good.”Or so I thought”,lol.If Employee’s had brought law suites and complained enough through the years, these unfair labor practices could have been brought under control by local Governments with laws and regulations.The Fedreal Governement to this day, should have no involvment whats so ever with this matter. Now your Unions own your President. He is there Pupppet. If you can’t do your homework and see that Unions are ruining this Country and are nothing but co-rupt, then it’s not even worth debating with you.

    • Steve

      It depends what you mean by interfering. They have a right to picket and make potential customers aware of the businesses practices. And they have the right to consider replacement workers scabs and exclude them from future union membership. Most of the comments have devolved into a discussion about whether unions have a “good” or “bad” overall effect. But the focus of the opinion piece was that business owners have a basic philosophical property right regardless of whether the overall effect produced by that right is good or bad. And the response is unions don’t intrude on the right of a business to do what it wants with its property. It has the right to lockout the unions, but it must deal with the consequences of that choice.

  • Hflashman

    No doubt there will be union bashing today, folks not knowing the history of Labor and the exploitation of the worker during the anti-union era of the beginning of the Industrialization.

    Anti unionists also fail to point out the way Big Corporate America has reduced its work force identities to a computer file and the consumers to the same..the ‘person’ is not considered. Is it profitable ? Then to hell with the individual. The rich become more entrenched and those that are not are stuck in a class system becoming more rigid and fixed.

    Unions are good. They counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich and wealthy.

    The problem is…the big unions have become “corporate’ themselves. Barriers to unionization should be weakened, but in my opinion the breadth of a union should extend no further than an industry. And each workplace should have one union for all the workers for that company…not several unions having a dog in the hunt.

    But then…it will be interesting to see how many come out and union bash on today’s thread. And to read the ignorance and robotic rantings…

    • 63rdpatriot

      That’s why it’s called ownership. If I own a company and choose to treat my employees like crap, that’s my business. If the workers don’t like it, they can move on. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, or “rights”. YOU have the freedom to quit. Unions have ruined this country. There is no longer pride in American workmanship and they drive the wages up so high people can no longer afford the crappy product.

      • clh

        I agree with you 100%. The unions have overstepped their bounds. They have driven up the price of products and materials by asking for incredible wages and compensation packages. I think in this day and age of unemployment and the economy, that every union shop that wants more wages on their next strike, the companies can tell them to go to hell and fill it with those non union people that want to work. The company no longer will have to pay that high wage.
        Why should a city worker-garbage collector- make 110,000 a year. Ridiculous, but thank the unions. We all pay more for goods and services because of it. The employee cannot be fired for failure to perform because of the union, so you have non production being paid for.
        Unions are BAD BAD BAD

        • kate8

          It seems that unions foster the idea that once you are hired for a job, that job becomes an entitlement, and before long the employees are calling the shots. The employer is no longer in control of his own company.

          I see this all the time (especially in government work) where, no matter how incompetent a worker might be, he cannot be fired. So he gets shifted around the departments, or others pick up the slack. Yet, he continues to bring home the same pay, and get regular raises, the same as if he actually did his job.

          It started out that an employer would offer benefits and good pay as an enticement for good workers. Then, gov’t steps in and mandates benefits, making then entitlements. This is nothing less than tyranny, and has driven our employers out of the country.

          When an employer is free to offer work on his own terms, he gets what he is willing to nurture. When business is plentiful, competition sets the rules of the game, and everyone wins.

          • PhiCrappaZappa

            I’m Quasi-Government, and I’m Union. I love my Union. Does it work for me? I have job security, and I’m thankful and have no problem busting my ass to do my job. When I’m not there, it’s noticeable. I don’t see the Union as the problem. I see it as totally inept and corrupt management. I know the rules as given to me day one. I follow them. Most don’t. Supervisors cannot supervise diligently and fairly when they’re screwing the clerks. And all the other clerks are aware, so “KMA, I ain’t doin nothin I don’t want to”. The Supers’ Supers are just as bad, since the Supervisors became Supervisors by screwing them. Not all, mind you, but I can only pick out a handfull. And the handfull simply didn’t want to do physical labor. In over two decades I have known ONE Supervisor that “became” out of merit. They retired, and it’s a world of dung. We had several employees fired, and they were gone for over a year, and then returned. Why? A technicality. The Union came prepared and did their job. Management F’d up. None of these people deserve to be here, but they are once again. And it’s only because of INEPT management. TOP to BOTTOM. Yes, many here suck and have no work ethics and feel entitled. That is a MANAGEMENT problem. RULES are in place to deal with it, if management really wants to. It’s easier to close your eyes, say whatever, and pick up your check every two weeks.
            And I’m also aware, that were the Union not here – NONE of us would be. It would be temporary staff F’ing the place up like they do now. Because management doesn’t train anyone. They haven’t a clue as to what the job entails. But their numbers have doubled……go figure.

          • Jana

            phi-c-z,

            Sounds like most of your problem is the UNION. You revealed it all in your post. Its amazing that you can’t see it.

      • Dick Gazinia

        Unions have created the middle class. True, some unions have overstepped their bounds, but in many industries they are about fair pay for work done, safety, and stability with health care.

        Your thinking is what gives company owners a bad name and what gives communists something to rally the ignorant about.

      • cemott3rd

        Odd? Germany and Japan are very unionized and there certainly is no problem with the quality of their workmanship. Maybe it was just shortsighted management who screwed the pooch?

      • http://YAHOO Idaho R,WINGER

        I agree, unions have dismantled the American dream. At one time unions were needed but in todays work force with all of the do’s and don’t’s that the Government has put in work place. It has industry bound up so tight that the average worker has the company they work for over a barrel. I held a job with a large aero space co. that for the first tweny years it was non union, then the union was voted in and that completly ruined the working enviorment, that was so pleasent. I opped out of the union at that time by moving into a non union position, management, for my remainder of employment of which was ten + years. That union did nothing for me but want my money. I’m retired…..now.

    • DaveH

      I’m replying to Flashman’s “ignorance and robotic rantings…”.
      So Flashman thinks he knows the history of labor and their exploitation. No, Flashman, you only know the propaganda. Workers have always been free in this country to quit their jobs and to start their own companies. That wasn’t good enough for Union bullies. They wanted to dictate how the owners of the companies would operate their businesses. And if they didn’t do it the Union way, the violence and coercion would start.
      Flashman says “Anti unionists also fail to point out the way Big Corporate America has reduced its work force identities to a computer file and the consumers to the same..the ‘person’ is not considered. Is it profitable ? Then to hell with the individual”.
      Oh? We have to buy their products now (excluding the ones Flashman’s Big Government forces us to buy)? I didn’t know that. I must be ignorant like Flashman. And Flashman thinks the Unions make the products cheaper and more accessible? ROTFLMAO.
      Flashman says “Unions are good. They counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich and wealthy”.
      With greed and power from the Unions? Nice counterbalance. NOT!

      • TIME

        Dave Super post.
        I too am so sick of reading the rotten hate filled road apples that the twinkie Da’flashmonkey keeps posting.
        His outright ignorance and hate filled rhetoric.
        DaFlashmonkey is really no differant than Hitlers black uniformed monsters.
        One of his other mindless post, “I look forward to paying more in tax.” Anyone who has ever been in business would never say that.

        • kate8

          TIME, I stopped reading the posts of flash and those like him.

          You might want to consider this for the sake of your blood pressure. You are giving flash his desired response.

          • DaveH

            Flash is annoying, as are most Liberals I’ve known, but certain of their points need to be addressed so that less knowledgeable people aren’t lured by the Liberal Siren Songs which sometimes sound good, but in reality are the opposite.

          • DaveH

            In fact, Kate, most of the Liberals I’ve known have gotten away with their propaganda because people don’t want to be subjected to their manipulative personal attacks if they disagree. I believe that is one of the main ways that they have plied their trade. We must not let them silence us. That is the only way they can win because their concepts are fundamentally illogical.

        • Hflashman

          LOL … a prime example of total ignorance becoming a rich ground for the robotic glazed eyed mantra for his the wealthy elite Masters …

          • DaveH

            Coming from a man who is personally acquainted with Total Ignorance.

    • Dan Burke

      “No doubt there will be union bashing today,…” Good call! I don’t think you needed a college degree to figure that out. I work in IT, not in a union, and no college degree and I knew that without even reading the rest of your comment where it is plain that you are baiting us to fulfill your prediction.

      “Is it profitable ? Then to hell with the individual.” Um, so you would rather work at company running in the red? I prefer working in company in the black financially, even if that means I am just a number towards profits. In this scenario, I know that company will be here tomorrow as opposed to being in the red where I wonder how soon I will be unemployed by default (bankruptcy). Which I think GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to go bankrupt without government intervention. I think that they turned to the government for assistance is very telling. They expected it (and got it too). How many of us knew they’ve been bleeding for years? I did, and I am not an economist. I wonder if they would have fixed their problems years ago and avoided this whole mess if they had believed then that government would NOT be there to prop them up. By the way, interesting that Ford ended up reading the public outrage, backed out of the line begging for assistance, and actually has stayed out bankruptcy so far….

      “The rich become more entrenched and those that are not are stuck in a class system becoming more rigid and fixed.” Those democrats and union leaders you so adore as defenders of the common people seem to be getting richer while us commoners are getting poorer. You might want to be careful who is throwing stones in a glass house.

      “Unions are good. They counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich and wealthy.” And why was this necessary? I don’t disagree that at one point that unions served a purpose. But it comes back to why. We keep getting caught up in the band aids to our problems but we refuse to look at the problem. Personally, I think the only winner in this whole mess is the government. Government keeps getting more and more powerful as the owners and management are pitted against the commoners. So, I suspect the problem goes back to perception, propaganda, and the government. When did government start getting involved with regulating business (picking winners and losers)? How is this connected with businesses partnering with government for gains? At one time, government created the slave class to support business. So perhaps we shouldn’t be so fast to say that evil, corporate elites were the need for unions. I am not saying that there were no evil, corporate elites involved. I am just saying that we are looking a rather narrow picture and the only winner in this whole mess is the one party that is standing aloof and playing the role of moderator.

    • Jim

      You know Hflash you had me right up until the last line of your post. I read alot of your posts and you appear to me to be overly liberal, read that as supporting whatever the libeal rant is without regard to the discussion. As I said at the start you had me right up untl the last line. Your post also seems to counter you claim in another post that you are a small business owner, yet you favor unions who IMHO have outlived their usefulness. All unions do now is enslave workers who have no say in how unions conduct their business. Workers also have any say in weather or not they will join, if the union is in place workers are forced to join and pay dues,usually through payroll deduction so the union gets your dues without your permission.

      • Scott

        Well stated! Who will save the employee from the unions? Union corruption is not due to unions becoming too corporate — it’s due to unions becoming too powerful/despotic. Where are the checks and balances?

        Employees should not be required or even pressured to join a union as a condition for taking a job, or keeping one. And if an employee has chosen to be in a union, he should be able to immediately terminate his membership for any reason, without any reprisal or retribution.

      • (WIA) Wild Indian in Action

        In agreement Jim,
        now if the HFlashflushman can give us a detailed description and name his business, and how his “Business Company or Corporation” deals/negotiates with Unions. How many “Greedy Millions” in income and profits has he made? Tell us Flush!

    • http://na. Robert Bradfield

      Bashing a Union is easy, as South African let me give you some idea of the effects that unions have in a country where the government consist of many unionists. We are currently experiencing a major strike of civil servants, this includes teachers and nursing staff.

      Our school year ends in November and the grade 12s have to prepare for two exams, the first which should take place this month determines the average grade point with the second exam stating in middle October. The past three weeks most of the teachers were on strike – no school for these learners in this period. As a consequence many of these learners will not be able to achieve the requirements either to pass grade 12 or to go to institutes of higher learning. This has an effect on their future, thus the kids pay.

      At the same time on the nursing side, babies die is hospitals because there are no nurses to take care of them, emergency patients are turned away by the same strikers and several critically injured patients, that could have been saved died. Thus, the patients pays, often with their lives. The only thing you should hope for is that the trade unionists do not become militant as in South Africa because that creates chaos. If you consider this union bashing so be it, but unions can become a major deterrent of economic growth.

  • TOCB

    Workers should have the right to unionize. Employers have the right to move to a state that doesn’t allow unions. If there are no such states the employer is out of luck. There has to be a certain amount of uniformity in a soceity. I think the libertarain positions work better in a small soceity where people are not interdependent. I don’t believe it is practical in a soceity of 310 million people.

    • DaveH

      Unionists have a right to move to a different company.
      So the number of people determines the amount of Government we should have? Somebody better tell Hong Kong that. With 3 times the population density of our most densely populated state, they spend less than half what we spend on Government.
      Imagine if you hired a gardener. Then he proceeded to uglify your property. You fire him. The next day he shows up outside your home to harass your visitors and any new gardeners you might try to hire. You would think this is correct behavior?

      • 45caliber

        No, but I’ve seen it happen. And every time I’ve seen it they are trying to force the employer to pay them for time they did NOT work for the employer and get extra money for not doing their job in the first place.

    • JeffH

      I’ve been a willing participant on both sides of unions 1970-1992. Helped organize my company with the ILWU in 1970, every phase up to being asked to replace the retirig business agent. In 1985 I was a Whse Mgr where the eployees(all 7) were being recruited by the very same union. The very same people that wanted my services in the 70′s now saw me as an evil empoyer representative. In 1970 the union was a necessaty for the employees, in 1985 the employees were lied to and were meant to be a tool for the union. They got their union but they didn’t win the promised contract and in 1993 the company closed it’s doors.(California EPA regulations) I’m not against fair unionisation, but I damn sure am against unions(SEIU)that misrepresent and carry informational signs and try to FORCE employees and businesses to unionize. That is somethig that I see quite often now and I will always make a point to inquire amongst the employees I talk to and find if they’ve asked for representation or not. So far non That I’ve talked to have asked for the unions to be there.

    • Patriot1776

      We are NOT acountry of 310 million. We are a union of 50 countries(states) united under common purpose….liberty. Each State is as unique as any other soveriegn country We are made up of indivdual States, Counties, and communities, each with their own identities. And if you could only learn to respect that each State has a soveriegn right to it’s own laws and beliefs and not try to force yours on others then we would be much better off. This is why the “liberttarian” point of view does not work in your opinion. Because you think that we are a one size fits all society. But that is the antithesis to liberty…and libertarianism. Long live private property, State soveriegnty, and individualism!

  • Roger Thompson

    I am a proud and unapologetic Teamsters Union Member. My workplace was a nightmare and living hell before we unionized. Say what you want but unions have brought all the major safety and workers progress in the 20th century and will continue to do so into the 21st. I now enjoy a reasonably safe and healthy workplace, decent health insurance, which I still pay a premium for so it is not a free ride and a living wage. I recently utilized the union to fight a case of reverse discrimination. I won my case and the truth triumphed. I have been with my employer for 10 yrs this coming Monday, which happens to be Labor Day…

    • Matt V

      Too bad unions overshadow there good deeds with their obese greed. My father was a teamster member for nearly 30 yrs when he was forced to retire because of medical reasons he got 156.00 dollars for 6 months. After paying dues all those years well its not worth it any more unions are about greed now in case anyone forgot case and point ( JIMMY HOFFA ) nothing else needs to be said about union greed.

      • Hflashman

        On the other side, my father was a member of the IWA, retired and makes a union pension of $1800/mth.

        • independant thinker

          fl;ash in the pan, who is the IWA?

      • 45caliber

        My mother used to be strong union. She wanted me to work at the same place for that reason.

        I asked her what she paid a month in union dues. Then I multiplied by the number of workers there. It came to over $35,000 a month going to the union. Then I asked what time the union spent helping her. It came down to the union officials meeting with the plant reps once every three years at Los Vegas to work on a new contract for two months. Just before midnight on the last day, the contract would be signed giving them about a 1.5% pay raise a year for three years. (I generally get about 3% a year as salary.) The union officals got a free trip to Las Vegas for two months at one of the better hotels thanks to their union dues. They were paid for two months work (which included going to shows and gambling). The rest of the three years the two men basically shared $35,000 a month.

        She wasn’t too happy about that. A couple of months later she was disabled due to an accident at home. She asked the union for some help – and was told that they only helped IF she was injured at work.

        After that she was rabidly against unions.

        • eddie47d

          Why would the union help your mother for an injury outside of work? Unless she had a union health policy that stipulated such assistance. So you’re saying the union should get involved in outside issues that don’t relate to work? I know many anti-union people rail against unions doing just that. Was the union or employer responsible for her injuries? Did she want something that wasn’t apart of any contract? Did she have her own private insurance? Dave H. is always saying the it’s up to the individual to take respnsibility for himself. The union I belonged to offers separate health and injury insurance. The union is there for wages and benefits and fighting for what is in the contract. Do unions have excess’s? Probably, But every union and business alike have conventions and meetings out of town.

          • JeffH

            fast eddie, quit being stupid!

          • eddie47d

            Jeff H. As usual you never understand anything and don’t want real answers. You’re always patting your self on the back for your own brilliance. Your reply shows your ignorance and lack of comprehension. Go support more lies about be-headings in Arizona and Mexican military invasions of Texas.Your mind has become a web virus and has eaten everything between your ears. I was looking for a clear answer from 45 caliber then you pop up. Since you’re not clear headed that leaves you out.

    • benth164

      Bravo Roger. Well said. I personally have very mixed emotions about uniionization. I know we do need them though, as I have seen owners whine about how much they are not making only to drive up in their brand new Mercedes or BMW year after year. The disparity between the “Worker” and Management or CEO level, is disgusting. It’s like bragging rights to show off just how much you were able to exploit the working class just because they may not want to be an entrepreneur. Many business owner seem to forget just how much they owe the working class for their businesss’ success.

      • Richard

        Disparity? What’s wrong with that? Would you prefer equality in poverty? Because that’s where your argument goes. I make more money than a lot of people and a lot of people make more money than me. So what?!? In a free society equal outcomes can never be guaranteed, and shouldn’t be. You negotiate with your employer on what your skills/work/output it worth. If they can find someone who will do an adequate (notice I didn’t say the same) job, then that’s a free market. You have the same right to say yes or no that they do.

        I’ve seen the union mentality myself, and I didn’t like it. There was no motivation because your personal performance no longer mattered. In fact if you are in a union and a hard worker, you won’t be for long because everyone else will be angry at your for making them “look bad” or you’ll finish your quota in half the time.

        • DaveH

          Richard,
          When I was eighteen (too long ago), I worked in a Unionized Cement Plant. I experienced exactly what you said. If I worked hard, the other workers discouraged that (it made them look bad). One time, they were describing to me how important Unions were. Their example was about the company asking a guy to go up on unsafe (their opinion) scaffolding to change some lights. I was thinking ‘if I thought it was unsafe, I would just say no. If the company fired me, fine, no job is worth my life’. But I sure didn’t need a Union to make those decisions for me.
          I finished my alloted tasks early each day, so out of boredom I asked my supervisor if I could move some rock with the skiploader. I was having a blast driving that thing. Some Union leaders found out and they set up a meeting with company officers to request that I get Skiploader wages. The result? The company man told me I couldn’t drive the Skiploader anymore. Thanks Union. They also kept me from working a 4 day workweek (10 hours a day) instead of the usual 5 day workweek (8 hours a day). Thanks Union.
          So I learned my lesson early in life. If you don’t have initiative, join a Union gang to force your way on the company.

          • Jana

            DaveH,

            That is what I hear from so many that used to work around union people. They are in control of the company. This is wrong.

        • 45caliber

          Richard:
          I know EXACTLY what you mean! We had a young man hired who did a great job for us. He came in one day to resign – his dad had gotten him a job at a company with a union, just like he was in.

          Months later, I saw him at a store and stopped to talk. He said he loved his new job and gave an example of why. The union steward had taken him out to a location and had him hide and sleep all day while charging the company for his time. The excuse the union steward gave him was that the company was making too much money and they needed to make sure the company didn’t. Because his work wasn’t needed, they wanted him to hide. Further, he told me that even his dad was telling him that he needed to do less work since it “made the rest look bad”.

          Basically, the union ruined a fine young man and a good worker. He could have gone far in life – but was now a union man so he stayed exactly where he was from then on.

          • http://none Jeff Hanks

            It is not the social construct of the union that made that kid not work as hard or go hide it is the people that surround him and their thoughts and actions that they alone are responsible for. The union should not protect workers that take advantage of their job protection.

          • JeffH

            45caliber, I’m old school in that the rule of thumb was a fair days pay for a fair days work, plain and simple. As a chief steward, I had to pull slackers aside and set them straight and also pull supervisors or managers into meetings with upper management to set them straight. I can honestly say I never lost a complaint or grievance. All about honesty and integrity, of which there is very little today.

      • Bill

        If you put up your money to form a business and build it up over the years (or in a week for that matter) you are entitled to the fruits of your labor and results produced by the company regardless of how much it is worth. When you sign on to a company you agree to a wage, that is what you work for, how much anyone else makes is immaterial. Only a child would sit there whining “he got more than I did.” I agree with the minority of one, guess that makes it a minority of two.

        • 45caliber

          I agree with you. You “sell” your time and skills to your employer. You agree to work for eight hours a day, five days a week at that pay. If you then do a good job, the boss will reward you with a pay increase because you are making him more money than he is paying you. If you refuse to work for the pay you agreed upon when hired, then you are failing to fulfill your part of the contract. If you are not making him any money then he doesn’t need you and should have the option of firing you and hiring someone else. If he refuses to give you a reward in the shape of a pay raise for your good work, then you have the option of going somewhere else that will. Sooner or later, if he doesn’t reward his employees, he will go out of business. And he knows it.

          • kate8

            The truth is, the socialist democrats promoted the establishment of unions to insure another voting base, to foster mediocrity, and to exert control over labor.

            I have friends who are good people, but always vote democrat because the union tells them how to vote. They actually issue memos telling them how to vote, on people and issues. They are forced to donate, through dues, to the democrat party.

            They will always go along with whatever the union tells them, because that is where their bread is buttered. So they allow themselves to be told how to think.

            Money always talks the loudest.

          • eddie47d

            45;Unfortunately employers don’t think that way anymore.They will pay less wages and if the workers don’t like it to bad. The employer knows there are few places that worker can go with the same skill. Many employers will send their companies overseas to get even cheaper workers.

    • Ron

      Isn’t if strange how the Japanesse auto companies in this country like Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have superior pay in a superior work environment and they are not union? Makes you think doesn’t it? Well, maybe not because you probably have not had a thought in years that wasn’t given to you by the union.

      • cella

        Yes, Honda does pay good,but………they have temp workers that make 10 bucks an hour. That is not a living wage. And if it were not for unions, they would all be working for 10 bucks an hour and taking the profit back to Japan. Don’t kid yourselves.

        • 45caliber

          $10 an hour is a living wage around here. I don’t know where you live but this is Texas about an hour’s drive from Houston.

          Toyota also hires temp – but then picks the best temp workers to be full time employees. Also a reward. All you need to do is work instead of sitting and complaining about not being paid enough.

    • DaveH

      So, Roger, your “workplace was a nightmare and living hell before we unionized”? Wow, what kind of people would stay in a job like that? I sure wouldn’t. Did your employer put you in chains and make you stay? Or was it some other kind of force to make you stay?
      Did you and your Union cohorts say ‘Please Mr. Employer’ make our conditions better’, or did you get together in a gang, harass potential customers, and harass potential replacement workers who would have been glad to work in that “living hell” to earn a living?
      Did the Government or some other agency prevent you from forming your own company with heaven-like working conditions?

    • 45caliber

      Roger:
      Did you personally start at your company before the union came in to “fix” things?

      I’ll make a bet. $10 says that you were told this by the union after you started to work and never actually saw the problems you refer to. The union has been at your work site longer than you’ve been alive.

    • http://www.appraisalgroupllc.net Bryan

      Why did you choose to work in a place that was a “living hell” ? and why would you continue to work for that employer who according to you had no regard for people until your valient teamsters came and forced this miserable employer into responsible employment practices. If you had the courage to reject the terms of employment and seek a more responsible employer the “living hell” employer would have got a clue or went out of bussiness. The union enabled this evil employer to stay in bussiness.

    • Betty

      How right you are Roger! I come from a long line of Union members.
      Unions have done a lot of good for all workers.
      I proud my family is union!

  • Rose

    I agree 100%. Unions have far outlived their usefullness if they ever really had any. They are now responsible for the demise of numerous businesses. They are only there to take over someone elses hard work. I have been places where I worked hard and the person next to me did very little and they got paid the same as me cause
    they were union. I was forced into a union once and will never be again. My business is my business and you or the government or any
    union has the right to tell me who I can hire or fire or not hire and not fire.
    You are not a minority of one. There are at least two of us.

    • Bob

      Make that 3. The union reps care nothing about the little guy. I’ve worked in places where the union colluded with the company to keep our wages down. The teamsters were one of them.

      • wavesofgrain

        Number 4, here.

        Unions were needed before the government formed the ACLU, Labor Board, Osha, etc. Now, these government “Unions” are in charge of work safety, fair labor practices, etc etc. Unions should be abolished, and should not have any say in employers efficiency methods, such as how breaks are scheduled. I know one Union that went on strike because the employer would not let employees take breaks together, resulting in shutting down the line for each one, instead of keeping the line going with staggered breaks. Flexing their muscles to get deer hunting days and birthdays off…NEVER HAPPY. Our education system is a perfect example what happens when you unionize teachers.

        • ValDM

          Number 5 here. I used to live in both Texas and Oklahoma. Property rights there are practiced freely and unselfconciously. Property rights there are almost revered. Both are Right to Work states and those laws are enforced. I have been a union member three times in my more than 40 years of work. In the beginning it was a good thing, but far and away they are no longer useful.

        • Genn

          # 5 here!!!

          I guess unions had there place once upon a time but so did blood letting.
          I’m 54 and never worked for a Union and all has worked out just fine.

      • Earl, QUEENS, NY

        I hear you Bob!! I’ve also seen it more than once – collusion and sweetheart contract wages in my past union jobs. It gets worse though. I’ve had 2 positions as an airport limo driver (same crooked union, different locals and companies). The first one – the company became an owner operator franchise to get rid of the union a few years after I left. So my co-workers lost their jobs, and the union couldn’t stop it. In the 2nd, there was an unfair labor practices strike. Although the NLRB ruled in favor of the union, the union colluded with the company and sold out on us, so we lost our jobs. I also suspect the NLRB was in collusion with the union, as they would not help us with our complaints against the union…..Thus, when I hear the myth that the union protects your job, I compare it to Obama’s lie that his regime saved many jobs when in fact they destroyed 4 million jobs since 1/20/2009!!

    • 45caliber

      I tried to get a job one spring when I was in collge for the summer at a union site. I was told that I needed to talk to a union steward and get his okay before I could be hired by the company.

      So I went to the steward. It was about 10 am on a work day. He was playing poker with four of his friends. He told me that I’d have to join the union for the summer – $150 up front. I tentatively agreed since the work paid about $10 an hour then. (Back in the late ’60′s) I asked if I could start immediately. He told me that he couldn’t possibly get me on for at least six months – unless I wanted to pay him an additional $150 to put my name to the front of the line.

      Considering the company was paying him and that instead of working he was playing poker, I decided that the job wasn’t worth $300. I got a job at a sawmill at minimum wage for the summer.

      • Bob

        Alot of unions only hire family or friends.Especially construction unions and port workers.

        • Warrior

          Similiar to gov jobs, you need a “Sponsor”

  • bob

    unions are no longer usefull. look at what happened to auto prices. they have to be so high to pay outragous saleries to those who belong to their unions. a person should be paid by the quality of their work, not by the way of strikes and intimidation.

    • EQ4ALL

      Bob,
      You comment on auto prices being so high due to the “outrageous salaries”(sic)paid the autoworkers. Since the recession began the autoworkers salaries and benefits have been reduced drastically. Bob, have you seen the prices reduced in comparison?? I think not…Just as when, in the early 1980′s manufacture of the Monte Carlo went to Mexico, with NO reduction in auto prices. You need to look elsewhere to find the real cause of high auto prices!
      Unions serve a very useful need in todays world.

      • thinking

        eq4all, just not all people.
        is that why the government owns GM and Chysler? The union pay and benifits were to low to compete? Odd that now the union is part owner of GM and prices havent dropped?

        • cella

          I know it is very sad at the thought of GM paying back and coming out a strong business in these tuff economic times. If it wern’t for Barack Obama a couple of million more people would be out of a job and on the evil unemployment line being told to go work at McDonalds. Saving GM and Saving jobs was a great accomplishment. In the Republican mood of letting companies fail that employ millions with all the companies that feed into that industry…It is a great accomplishment that the Republicans would WISH WOULD go away. They were keeping their fingers CROSSED that after the government bailed them out, THEY COULD HAVE FAILED. OH WHAT A HAYDAY THEY COULD HAVE HAD .

          • JeffH

            cella, haven’t heard from you in awhile. Still lickin’ Obama’s boots I see.

          • Pete from Australia

            Sorry Cella, you are so wrong! The government NEVER saves jobs. It creates NO jobs. Someone (maybe you) has to pay this bailout back. If your money was not employed boondoggling these inefficient enterprises, then the capital would then be employed more efficiently to PRODUCTIVE enterprise. So for every bailout there is a cost, paid for by you and other taxpayers.
            GM should have been allowed to fail. It had passed its use-by date. Shockingly overpaid management and staff and a product nobody wanted. Now you own it! Would you voluntarily have bought shares in this failed business model?
            My God, Russia got rid of central planning, you want it in the US? Land of the free?
            We have similar policies and ideologies here, and the dead hand of government basically tends to ruin everything it touches.
            I won’t get into the union versus employer debate, as I have been both, only to state that when I worked about 80% harder on one job than the unionised workforce I was hated.
            On the other hand I have had nasty, stupid bosses, but left when I really couldn’t stand them.
            On the other hand I’ve employed people, some good, some bad, some so exceptional they totally surprised me.
            Also when talking about unions, people forget the most powerful (like doctors, lawyers, dentists and even vets (I’m a soft touch got dog, cats and chickens)). Their charges are uniform here in Australia, and they are a significant cost (like $90 to declare my dog dead!!). They are called “professional associations” but act just like unions, with their standard charges!
            Anyway folks, love this site, and enjoy the conversations. I’m a committed freedom-seeker so now fly to Manila to a cheap dentist and have free holiday!

        • Joyce from Loris

          Not only are the union members now part owners of these companies… the STOCKHOLDERS of these companies got NOTHING for their stock! The government just took our shares from us, gave us NOTHING for them and then the rewards all went to the blasted UNION cartel.

      • DaveH

        They were losing money! Should they just keep paying exhorbitant wages and losing money? Would you want to own a company that is losing money?
        Unions and Big Government are driving our companies out of the country or into bankrupcy. Is that the way you want it?

      • clh

        The only purpose the unions serve today is to take dues from their members and put it into their own interests/pockets/ politics. Are you talking drastically reduced wages from $50 to $35 an hour, wish I could get my wages drastically reduced.

        • eddie47d

          clh; So much sarcasm! Where do you work and how do your wages compare to the work you are doing? Hard labor,pencil pusher,fast food?

      • 45caliber

        EQ4ALL:
        You are right. But the UNIONS are doing well on profits since Oblama turned ownership of GM over to them.

      • American Citizen

        GM want to close a stamping plant here in Indiana and a Michigan company wants to buy it. The workers there now make a base pay of $29.90 an hour. The new company wants to cut that in half. The union won’t let the workers vote on it. So it probably means the plant will close and those workers will be out of a job. They think they will be moved to another GM plant somewhere, but there are no guarantees. The company reps of the one wanting to buy the stamping plant said their workers in Michigan that have been there a few years earn at least $100,000 a year. Who is being screwed here.

  • Warrior

    Ah yes, Unions, just a micro version of the big socialist experiment.

  • Terry

    Well, you’re in the minority of two. I wholeheartedly agree with you. At one point in our history, unions seemed to do a good thing, i.e. better wages, better working conditions, etc. In our modern age, however, unions harm everyone. They increase the cost of business (already being thugged by ridiculous taxes and regulations) to the point where profits are difficult to make. Everyone then wonders why everything is made in China, and there are no jobs here.
    Am I the only one putting two and two together?
    Nobody should have the right to extort their employer. If you do not like anything about your job, you are welcome to find another one. The company should not have to relocate to avoid “petty communism”. I grew up in Michigan (where unions have devastated the economy), and now live in South Carolina (right to work state). We’re getting a lot of the jobs that would go elsewhere. Many of these companies tell the employees that if they try to unionize, the company is closed. The people stay and work- problem solved.
    I, for (two), agree.

    • marvin

      Alabama is a right to work state

      • DaveH

        Also Arizona.

        • 45caliber

          Most if not all the South are Right-To-Work states. Every time a union tries to come in, they are voted out. That is why they are trying to get Oblama and friends to pass the various bills they want forcing unionization of the South. And even in the North they are losing ground. They see all that money out there (union dues) just waiting to be snatched up IF they can get the government to force all workers to join.

          • eddie47d

            The standard of living and quality of life was much better in the North when there were jobs. The Right to Work committee encourages the right to pay less. Hardly a beacon of hope. The unions main job is to represent the workers but must reflect what is good (and affordable) for the employer. No union of any value should cause a business to cease to exist.

  • egore

    I think it is taking it one step too far when you say the employer has to give permission for a union to exist. What is a union? What if the workers got together in a bar after work and discussed their job? What if they all decided to quit en masse? Is this a union action? Can a union be secret? You might say an employer has the right to not recognize a union and only deal with the individual worker, but as for permission to organize, that would be thought and speech control. Course I have always been an advocate of being able to fire at will.

    • http://none Jeff Hanks

      if the employer had to give permission for a union to be then there would be no unions. You probably owe a lot to unions like safe working conditions, workers rights, breaks, a reasonable wage and a minimum wage. You people have no idea what the world would look like if it wasn’t for unions and workers rights. Slavery would be here and most of us would be slaves. Many people have to keep their job because they are stuck paying a mortgage they can’t afford and cannot move anywhere. Also the job pool has shrunk drastically because of the greed and power of corporations and the mistakes of governments. Canada has a 50% + 1 policy of the PEOPLE WHO VOTE. If 51% of the people who vote want the union then it is in. Say what you want about Canada but we are in a good financial position because our financial industry and mortgage industries had a bit tighter regulations on them than in the U.S. and this was done by a liberal party while the conservatives wanted to deregulate banks. I would gladly join a union but I would try to make it my union one that makes it a better workplace for all and not one that takes advantage of the employer.

      • eddie47d

        Also the unions gave us the 40 hour work week and 5 days of work. Now that is family values.

  • American

    Hflashman, could it be that the rise of employees being replaced by computers may have something to do with the cost of keeping employees in a union situation? After all, when a union member makes four times as much in compensation as a non-union member makes and you multiply that by all employees within a business, and add in all the other benefits, it beomes harder to make a profit (and stay in business) and some of those jobs have to be cut. My husband was a member of the Teemsters 20 years ago. It was great that his paycheck was higher than he’d ever had before but I didn’t feel it was right even then. His insurance plan almost completely covered the $72,000 in fertility treatments I needed to have a baby. Lucky me, but still not right. That money could have paid the salary of two or three more employees to run the business. Layoffs came when my son was two months old (no surprise there) and my husband ended up having to find another, lower paying job. We suffered, the business suffered, but the union went on thriving. What does that tell you? If you think unions are fair for everyone, tell me if you think it’s fair for those who aren’t employed by big businesses that don’t have union participation. What about the guy working his butt off at the landscape supply store down the street or the cooks in the whole-in-the-wall diner two blocks away? Not everyone can get a union job but they may work just as hard, actually harder. All that is beside the point of the article. Forced unions are no different than government takeovers except that the government only gets their share at election time.

    • valricoslash

      The last sentence says it all.

      Additionally, the unions have become an extension of the democaratic party. Without the unions the big money they contribute from the workers’ dues, the democracts would be reduced to a second rate party. And without the protection of the democratic party, theunions would cease to exist, at least in the corporate form they have today.

      Today, big unions are nothing more than the big corporations they lock horns with. Their leaders are nothing more than corporate CEOs with six figure incomes gained on the backs of the “little guys and gals” they squeeze money from under the guise of “helping” them. The article is right. You can form an union if you want, but if you don’t like the paycheck or work conditions, or whatever the ower provides, you then have option to quit and go somewher else. To me striking is nothing more than quitting and should be treated as such. Ronald Reagan proved that with the air traffic controllers, none of which were rehired.

      The only reason GM did not go under was the fact that Obama owed the UAW, and saving GM was his payback. The unions need the proposed rule changes and cardcheck to exist. Their membership is shrinking at a rapid pace as companies move to right-to-work states or shift their production to Mexico (the UAW rally helped their members there–right?)and China.

      You would think that states like Michigan, New York, etc. would get the hint, but their Democrat controlled legislatures just on’t get it. they would rather have the union money line their pockets then put people back to work in their states. Just look at the unemployment numbers. I don’t think the UAW controlled Michagan has anything to brag about.

    • 45caliber

      I agree. I know one business owner in this area that makes less profit (and pay) per month than his lowest waged employee. If he is forced to unionize and pay more, he will have to go out of business. He doesn’t mind getting less at the moment because he is his own boss. But not if unions come in.

    • eddie47d

      American;Nice of you to take advantage of the union with so much remorse. There are many smaller unions that the cooks and landscapers could join. But they get paid so little and aren’t willing to pay any dues for little gain.

  • Mick

    Hflashman says:
    But then…it will be interesting to see how many come out and union bash on today’s thread. And to read the ignorance and robotic rantings…

    ****************************
    Unions are now a thorn in America’s side and are digging a hole so big that they will bury our country,,
    Hflasman, talk about robotic, the Unions push the button and here you go with you parroting,
    Mobster behavioris not good for a decent society period…!

    • eddie47d

      Some unions are as bad as their corporate partners in the world . The conversation should be about getting rid of the bad apples in both and be more focused on the well being of all workers.

  • Cribster

    I work at a utility where we have an association (in-house union.) There is no bullying or coercion, they have brought much to the benefit of the emplyoees and they keep the upper echelon in check. There is no pressure to join and if the association misbehaves they will lose dues paying members.

    I think the problem is when unions get too big, they forget their purpose and become power mongers.

    The biggest problem we have here is the safety office. Ten years ago the was one man running the whole safety office, there is now an entire cabal, many are ex OSHA people who have nothing better to do than justify their positions. They completely defy common sense.

    Just one example is “hot work.” That is when you have to use welders or torches in vaults or underground. You have to set up a retrieval device to lift a person out of a hole if he passes out. The safety office deterined that if you even “break the plane”, which could be a hole two feet deep that you can step in and out of you have to set up the retrieval device which takes a man to oversee it, a fire watch supervisor, another supervisor in charge of the crew and the person to do the work.

    It quite often takes three times the amount of time to set up than it does to do the job.

    • Mike Purdin

      i worked at a local power plant here in southern ohio, i am a non union electrician and at this time there are more if not as much laid off union electricians as non union, but at the plant, the electricians who are union, who work for plant. make us work, because if they think the work is too hard or dirty or they just don’t want to do it then we get it which i am glad. but they can pick and chose if they want to work or not and the management can’t do a thing about it. and if they talk of moving a few to another plant because of lack of work then they scream why is my company in there if they don’t have the work for them. because we only do what they refuse to do. so we get opur work cut back and they still won’t do the jobs, until it builds back up and management has to get my company to do the work sad

      • 45caliber

        I have a friend that owns a construction company. He was hired to change out the metal siding on a long building. He figured it would take him three days and mentioned as much to the union official that was bringing him in.

        He was told to do only one bay (20 feet) a day. He was to spend as much time as he could on other things. He wasn’t to “embarrass” the other workers ther by getting more done. So he obeyed.

        A company engineer came down the last day and complimented him on his “fast” work. He told me he was so ashamed that he’d never take such a job again.

    • Mike Purdin

      and as far as the hot work and underground non union has to go thru same thing if you work for a good company but for us it has into a tank or underground vault or enclosed area, but same set up takes time but i would rather make sure if something happen can get whoever is in there out without maybe getting someone else hurt or killed

    • JeffH

      A given with unions, union dues,fines, fees and assesments. Try not paying your union dues, get fined, don’t pay the fines and dues, get pulled off of the job and possibly not ever get that job back. I’ve seen it first hand and the union isn’t always the good guy. But hey, a majority of everyone thought Obama was a good guy too. It’s not always what it seems to be.

  • Sean

    We are a minority of two

  • Al Sieber

    Be prepared to kill to protect your property, before you become someone else’s property.

    • Craig

      Amen to that. The time is getting closer to protect yourself and property.

      • JRC

        lol this comment is so hilarious I will laugh for hours…defend from Who? The government? Good luck and many wet dreams. If you for one second believe you can protect “”your”” property from the rightful owner…the government you are wrong….remember YOU do NOT own the property, you only lease it…stop paying taxes and you will find out pretty fast who really “”OWNS”” this property…and you will have NO chance in hell to defend it.

        • Al Sieber

          JRC, one can damn well try, rather then become a slave like you think, people should just give up then, well no way pal.

        • Matt

          I hate to say it but I agree. I am a SMALL business owner. I have worked in China and other places. I have come to realize that this is true. I pay 3% property taxes… i.e. I buy it back from the government every 30 years. In China you can get a 50 year lease on property for less than you would have to pay for it, so there is really not much difference. The real problem we have in the US is who can buy property here. ANYBODY FROM ANYWHERE. That puts a big strain on developing businesses of US citizens. People from all over the world come here and buy property with money made on the backs of slave labor. They don’t have the same work place guidelines that we have to follow. So this in fact drives property prices up as has happened in recent years. So the local working people here can not compete to pay the high prices for property that foreign buyers have pushed upward. Many of them often get tax exemptions that we can not. Most other countries require citizenship to buy real property; that should be the case here. Countries do that to protect the citizens, but our lawmakers really don’t care. Well I have to go back to work. A good day to all.

          • American Citizen

            I’ve been wondering how the Muslims were able to buy that property close to the where the World Trade Centers came down in order to build a Mosque there.

        • DaveH

          The government, the rightful owner? Not in this country. Not yet, at least. Cuba isn’t far away. Go there and live in your workers’ paradise.

        • http://STREAMENERGY Clem

          Im 83 yrs old and have seen nothing worse than a union controlled America I have seen it all I finnally moved from management to sales on commission.Unions in their efforts to controll. ran all the big companies off shore. pretty soon we will haVE ONLY SERVICE COMPANIES.

        • 45caliber

          JRC:
          So the government owns everything and you own nothing. I thought only Communist governments were that way but I guess I was wrong. But I will say that if someone from the government shows up to take something I spent part of my life to acquire, he and I are going to have some trouble.

          • eddie47d

            Matt; Thanks for reminding us how people from other countries can come to America and buy up land,buildings and other commodities and drive up prices for the rest of us.

          • Al Sieber

            45caliber, right on, not afraid. I’m not giving up nothing without a fight.

          • DaveH

            So, Eddie, those foreigners should sell us their products cheaply, then stuff the money in a mattress, so that they never collect on our debt? Yes, that would be nice for us. But Foolish for them.

          • eddie47d

            Dave H.: So these foreigners buy our buildings and farm land and send the profits home. That is hardly going to reduce our debt and they still control us.

  • Phil

    Even with a union, companies aren’t required to negotiate. They only must do so “in good faith”. If companies reach impasse with unions, then they can impose whatever their demands are. It’s simple as that.

    It’s also simple as companies knowing that they usually underpay people for work that is literally invaluable to the company. Just as employees can walk away, so can employers find new employees. They don’t because it costs them too much, because people learn how to do their jobs better and that benefits the company. Making someone pay for benefit they get from labor isn’t immoral – it’s in fact stealing someone’s labor to get it and keep it far below market value to the purchaser (employer).

    After all, let’s look at this big-picture. If my property is equal to my life through the equation of property rights that you’ve worked out here, then the labor that gets me to that is as well. If someone owns a business, they own my labortime as a means of production toward products to which I have no rights as the *actual* producer on the factory floor. What does that mean?

    It means that I am agreeing to give you my labor (my property) and the products of my labor (my property) for a fee. If that fee is too low, and you refuse to give me more, then I should be able to leave. Right? Well, that’s what a union does – only the whole factory does it and not just one guy.

    All a union is is people realizing their collective value and asking to be paid it. It’s that simple. Would a factory that refuses unionization prefer that everyone walk off the job at once as individuals who will never come back? Or as people with whom they can negotiate, get the best deal, and everyone gets back to work?

    You conservatives are so ideologically programmed to see “property” as only tangible that you are unable to see when laborer’s property rights are violated, as well.

    Get a clue.

    • Gary

      You need to get a clue.
      Just because you are an organized group what gives you the right to bully the business owner into paying you what ever you want. If it was up to the employee to decide his own wages the business could never survive. That sort of reminds me of Congress voting themselves a raise when they are already overpaid.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        What gives the business owner, the right to pay an unlivable wage? Why should 5 or 6 people work, for a business owner, and he’s the only one who can afford health care? Unions protect the workers, from being slaves.

        • eddie47d

          Thanks Phil and Robert

        • DaveH

          Because, Robert, it is his money. If you don’t like the offered deal, decline it.
          Or you could take the Liberal way and use Government as your Bully Boy to force him to pay you what you think you’re worth, and then when he goes out of business whine about all the companies that are going overseas.

          • ARN001

            Thank you, btw, read the posts again and tell me how many times this same common sense answer has been posted. Some ppl dont Want to ‘get it’.

    • ValDM

      Glad you think we just don’t have a clue. What put me off of unions was when they took my dues, established a PAC for only dem candidates and mandated I vote for only those candidates they endorsed. Not only do they coerce the employer, but the employee as well.

      • 45caliber

        You are right. Another reason I don’t like them.

        • http://yahoo Robert

          The “Dems” are the only ones who care about workers. Do you really think, McConnell, or Boehner has any regard for you?

          • 45caliber

            The Dems gave up caring about the workers when they discovered minority groups. Why do you think the South went from Dem to GOP since the 60′s?

          • ARN001

            yeh, what he said.

      • eddie47d

        ValDM;No one can mandate you to vote for a political candidate.

    • DaveH

      That’s some pretty heavy rationalization, Phil. If the workers feel their labor is worth more, they are free to go elsewhere or start their own companies.
      The bottom line. Do you want to live in a country where the people have voluntary choices? Or do you want to live in a country where the peoples’ choices are dictated by Goverment Gangs or Union Gangs?
      I choose voluntary.

    • http://STREAMENERGY Clem

      yOU ARE ONLY PARTLY CORRECT I PICKED COTTON FOR 25CENTS A HUNDRED WEIGHT RIGHT BESIDE PEOPLE (MEX.) I WORKED HARDER ANMOST OF THE i MADE TWICE AS MUCH. tHE mEX WERE PUTTING rocks in their sack and caught. docked for the $ and fired the next tIme. GET REAL PEOPLE.

  • DAVID

    If unions were so wonderful, there would be no need to sneak a law through,somewhere, to force people to join them. Over the last 40 years I’ve been on both sides of the issue several times. If you want to smoke or do drugs, go ahead, but NOT on my property. If you want to join a union and rent a job, go ahead, but NOT at my business, period!

    • wavesofgrain

      I agree, David. I also think that unions should NOT be allowed in any public sector job…any job paid for by our tax dollars. Union jobs especially do NOT belong in government! I resent my tax dollars used for a government/state/municiapl union employee.

      • 45caliber

        I definately agree!

      • American Citizen

        Right on!

      • ARN001

        Amen

  • Awokenone

    Consider yourself a minority of two! I agree 100% Part of employment is that a person is hired / agrees to do what the property / company owner asks them to do “while on the clock” for some type of compensation in return. If that compensation is not enough, or you cannot or will not do as asked, then one surly has the right to leave. That means that the property owner has the right to not compensate you to form or be part of a union while on his time.

    • Mike Purdin

      there are times companies misuse their employees, i am a non union electrician and good at my job, but when i started as a helper i did the grunt work my electrician did the technical work plus help on some grunt work, not me as a electricain today maybe digging while a helper is working in a panel, something wrong with that picture. unions have helped but they have abused their power and some companies will abuse their power. if i don’t like way company treats me i keep working and look for another job while i am. because i will question my employer why on things and ask for raise also , but if i don’t like answer i can find another job, but bad thing is almost impossibl;e in this economy right now

      • ARN001

        Helper in the panel, you digging the ditch…. c’mon….is he bigger than you or what?

  • Patty Kelly

    Unions were needed decades ago, but now their only function is to lobby politicians and argue for over the top wages and benefits (when compared to the more realistic private sector). There are many laws on the books to protect employee’s rights, and organizations like OSHA handle safety. Unions have become part of the political wheel which is destroying our individual liberties.

    • Karolyn

      Obsiously, there are not enough laws when an employer can fire you just because you have opposing political, religious, or any other views. And don’t be fooled – they can!

      • Craig

        Nobody is forcing you to display your political views at work. You are there to work. Keep your personal stuff to yourself and the boss will not know what your political affiliations are to fire you. Hell, nobody is forcing you to work there either. The boss makes the rules, that’s why he is the boss.

        • Karolyn

          So it’s OK if he fires you after seeing you going into a synagogue or bar? If you have a bumper sticker on your car he doesn’t like? If he thinks you’re too short, tall, fat, skinny, bald, hairy, ugly or cute?

          • ARN001

            Thats not a ‘Boss’, Karolyn, thats an ‘ex’ boss.

      • 45caliber

        Karolyn:

        Here in the South your boss can fire you at will. And you can quit at will. What is the difference? On the other hand, it takes about a year to train someone to do his job as good as possible – even if you know the skill you will need when you get the job.

        Most employers know that the first year you work you will not do as good a job as you will later. And most are willing to ignore your personal decisions (yes, even being gay) to keep a good employee rather than hire someone else they have to pay.

        In most cases I’ve seen, the worker may insist that he was fired because he was of a different political party than the boss or because he was gay. In actual fact, he didn’t work very hard and had other problems at work that his boss decided were too much to deal with. Such as a gay worker who kept propositioning the other workers. Or a worker who was harassing a woman for sex. And even in non-union sites, the boss must have reams of evidence as to why the worker should be fired before it is done.

        • libertytrain

          You are particularly correct with your assessment of the mounds of paperwork needed to fire someone and why. I once worked for some Germans who had escaped the Berlin Wall and lived in “free” Germany till they moved to the USA. I loved one aspect of their style, if they had a crappy worker, they just fired him. Didn’t care about the paperwork and actually were very fair. Gave good wages and increases but got rid of you if you were even lazy, not just incompetent. There were no sick days or excessive holiday pay but they had been so abused in Germany as employers by the government regulations on six week vacations and the like that they stuck to their guns as to what they were going to do here.

      • JeffH

        Karolyn, workers are “protected” by federal and state laws for unlawful discharge. Ever hear of the NLRB?(National Labor Relations Board)? If one is willing to give up without a fight, they deserve what they get. There are a certain set of “rules” to protect oneself from unlawful discharge and it behoves everybody who feels threatened by an employer or a union to find out what they are and how to use rhem. Pretty simple process though, it only take a pad of paper, a pencil and a calendar and timepiece.

        • Karolyn

          It is not unlawful in South Carolina to fire someone just because you don’t like his face, so there really is no recourse unless you are in a protected class; which, by the way, I would be as a 63 year old woman.

          • ARN001

            I have worked in the Carolinas several times (I build Power Plants) and I saw no difference in hiring practices or the procedural demands placed on ‘management’ to facilitate the removal from the workforce of an ‘undesirable’ person who has demonstrated a (documented) lack of ‘acceptable performance’ or an attitude/work ethic not commensurate with stated performance/productivity goals required, and enumerated, PRIOR to hire.
            If I am ever fired because ‘he didnt like my face’, he wont like his when my day is done.
            I am allowed to protect myself, as are you.
            You are 63 years old, I believe that to be a considerable advantage.
            Good luck to you in your final working years, and, im certain, your face is just fine :)

    • DaveH

      Patty, Unions were never “needed”. That was Depression Era Propaganda. Unions have always been force, both against the company and against the employees.
      Here is a good book (and it’s free) which discusses the causes of the Great Depression:
      http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf

      • Karolyn

        Well, somebody was needed to organize the workers so they weren’t brutalized and abused as they were prior to unionization.

  • Helen Satmary

    When unions put business OUT of business how does that help the employee. Does anyone remember how many newspapers we used to have before the union force them out of business. How much does a automobile cost today, thanks to the unions. Employees must be treated fairly but there has to be some other answer. Unions for the most part are not the answer. They reminds me of the mafia only legal. They ruin free enterprize whenever and wherever they can. Look how they are strong arming us now. They protect Obama and Obama protects them. Thank you Obama. Union representation. No PEOPLE representation as you might expect of a true President of the United States.

    • Matt V

      unions are the main reason american auto companies are unable to sustain themselfs now and the idiot bailing them out didnt help either. Point GMC gets bailout money so they wouldnt go bankrupt after recieveing the bailout they bankrupt anyway.Ford did somthing right they barely hanged on but i think they survived off of GMs demise.

      • Karolyn

        Uh, apparently, the American automakers are doing pretty well right now.

        • Craig

          The reason they are doing better is not because of the unions. Unions have NEVER helped a company prosper. Just like socialism has never made a country or nation better.

          • wavesofgrain

            I agree, Craig. I have a (very) small business (private sector) and get to watch the union retirees living in the lap of luxury with our bailout money. They are all younger than I, retiring at 55 or less. I can never retire, as I have to produce, keep those taxes paid to support the public sector, welfare recipients and unemployment. This last teacher bailout really burned me. Unions have no use in this society anymore. Look at Greece. Rioting in the streets as the economy collapses. Setting fire to banks, which resulted in deaths. Protesting also resulted when cuts to bloated public sector and unions were announced.

            http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-05-05-greece-strike-crisis_N.htm

            “”””Papandreou won an election last year pledging to tax the rich and help the poor but has come under increasing pressure since his government announced Greece’s 2009 budget gap was would be twice previous estimates and four times the EU ceiling.””””

            This is why Hillary Clinton is on a mission on behalf 0f Obama to find a way to ban all our guns. They must be sure there will be no threat of civil war when they throw the final curtain on Americans…communist sheeple with no rights and a dictator. Watch out…after our guns are banned, the big punch will knock the wind out of us all.

      • Mike Purdin

        lol myself after having a couple gm vehicles i would rather buy ford

    • 45caliber

      Helen:
      One reason that unions remind you of the mafia is that in earlier days unions were run by the mafia. They brought it a lot of cash and any criminal group wants in on that. The union tactics were developed by the mafia and are used today – regardless of who runs the unions now.

  • Matt V

    Teamsters are crooks

    • ARN001

      yes, and crooks are teamsters

  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    Unions had a place in our history and were an important part of capitalism in our country. They corrected a lot of wrongs and were instrumental in employee rights and laws to protect workers. However, the pendulum has swung too far. They have become greedy and now make demands that exceed the need for them to be there. I was forced to join a food workers union 25 years ago. I didn’t have a choice. If wanted a job with this company I had to join. Never mind that I was only a part time worker, and only worked a few hours a week. My dues were the same as the full time workers, making my first encounter with unions a bad experience. Now, Washington is in so tight with the unions, they bail out failing companies to make sure the unions get their share first. Ludicrous. Their function has ceased to be that of good and has crossed the line….

  • Mick

    American says:
    September 2, 2010 at 9:47 am
    Not everyone can get a union job but they may work just as hard, actually harder. All that is beside the point of the article. Forced unions are no different than government takeovers except that the government only gets their share at election time.
    *********************************************
    American,,,You’re right on target……..Unions members are forced to go on strike when told and careful if you cross the line,this thug mentality is very harmful to everyone and the take over of our freedom is not far away with this type of practices…
    And what about the amount of money employee’s get when force to strike ?
    Do you people think that the heads of the Unions would settle for that ?

    • 45caliber

      Sadly, I know of cases where people were killed during union strikes. And the agreement with the company to get things back to work is that no one will attempt to locate the murderer. The government agrees as well.

      Personally, if someone murders then they should receive punishment for it. If a member of my family is killed by a union member, then you can bet I want that murderer punished. And (I’m an Arkansas hillbilly even though I’m also a college graduate) if the government agrees to not find and punish the murderer, I will. Unfortunately for the union officials, they will have to take the brunt until one tells me who the murderer is.

      • ARN001

        Absolutely agree

        • ARN001

          1 at a time till all is revealed–no mercy

  • Karolyn

    Unions are the only way employees can be insured that they will be trated fairly. Here in the South “union” is a dirty word. The powers-that-be want to keep the “slaves” in their places. “If you don’t like it, you’re out.” I was told that whenever any talk of unionization is heard at the local WalMart a team of union “hitmen” is immediately dispatched by jet from Arkansas to our little airport. And we all KNOW how fair WalMart is!

    • Matt V

      wal-mart isnt the same and they have paid dearly for it too because of past lawsuits but again it goes to the fact that wal mart chose to be non union and to be forced to unionized that is anti freedom. besides with social medicine that the democraps passed they have to have benefits now so if you still dont like so if the Unions still dont like it. the unions can discuss it with that union baby sitter idiot in the white house oh dont forget the bobsey twins pelosi and reid.

    • Joyce from Loris

      I have worked in the south for 40 years, and never under a union. I worked at DuPont for 15 years, at AAI for 10 years. I was always given fair treatment, wonderful benefits and very good wages, all without the help of a union. Yes, the word UNION is a dirty word in the south. We do not take kindly to others taking OUR MONEY for doing nothing. Southern people are pretty good about taking care of themselves. It’s all the people who MOVE here from somewhere else, who are use to having someone else pay them for not working, give them food stamps, etc., that cause the most problems. We Southern people, the REAL southern people, are pretty good at taking care of business.

      • Smilee

        Check the labor department website and you will find that union employees average nationally $800,00 per month more than non union employees, the dues are a fraction of that. Say your dues are $50.00 a month and you put your dues in a savings account on the first of the month and the first of the next month your balance has increased from $50.00 to $800.00 giving you a very high rate of return, well that is what your dues gets you based on actual labor statistics. My corporate pension is alps a lot bigger, a little over $1000.00 per month more than the non union employees where I worked and my wages were higher also so my SS is also higher, do the math!!

    • 45caliber

      Karolyn:
      If you are here in the South and trying to unionize, perhaps you should go back to Michigan where they think unions are so great. Of course, you will likely not be able to find a job there ….

  • Jerry M

    I have worked for a major airline for ten years. The union weather it likes it or not,enables complacent and lazy workers. Like our Gov.,they are corrupt with no means to control them.

    Property rights need to stay with the person not the group of persons to override the individual.

  • Bill

    There is a movie call Bonfire Of The Vanities in which Morgan Freeman, who plays a judge, comes down from the bench after being accused of being a racist by the “mob” in the courtroom for dismissing a case against someone who clearly didn’t commit the crime, admonishes people to go home and be “decent people” and, if you don’t know what that means, ask you grandmother. What has happened to decency in all of us? What is the future for us as human beings when decency is lost? That said, I guess I don’t have an answer….only a question and a plea. Who’d have guessed Rodney King would be so profound? “Why can’t we all just get along?”

    • DaveH

      It all depends on who defines the word “decency”.

  • BigBadJohn

    If not for unions NO WORKER in the USA would have ANY benefits – PERIOD!

    The mere threat of workers organizing was enough for employers to start offering benifits comparable to union shops.

    With the last 30 years of attacks on unions by the republicans, starting with Reagan, employers are now screwing employees into the ground every chance they can get.
    Prime example, my brother is a manager for a robotics firm, he was forced to lay off all of his workers, then the company offered the same people their job back at 50% of what they were making.

    Why is it Americans love freedom but except dictatorship in
    the workplace?

    • Bruce

      You have your head so far up your unionized butt that it isn’t funny!

      As several people have already pointed out, unions are just mini corporations and just as greedy as the corporations that you vilify. Don’t believe me, just look at how much the officers of your local or national union make and you suckers are paying for it. That idiot that ran SEIU, David Stern, makes almost $1 million per year in salary and benefits. They all receive untold amounts of kick backs. Unions are more than 50% responsible for inflation because of their insistence on receiving their stupid cost of living increase, which no one else receives! THAT IS what increases the cost of living.

      There is something inherantly wrong with a retirement system that allows someone to retire twenty years before anyone in the corporate sector can, yet needs on average 3 people paying into it! Talk about voodoo economics! God, you union pukes are pathetic!

      • DaveH

        That’s right, Bruce.
        For every Union Worker that gets higher wages, somebody else pays the price. Does the Unionized person work harder thus producing more? Of course not. Harder work and more productivity is what they Unionize against. So they produce less, or make more money, or both. Who pays for that? The consumer is who. The rest of us can purchase less with our own hard earned money after companies are forced to raise their prices to pay for their Unionists’ wages or lesser productivity. This is equivalent to a decrease in our wages. That is the pratical effect of Unionization. But that’s not all.
        Unions are also immoral because they, in effect, are taking other peoples’ (the company owners, stockholders, etc.) money away when they coerce the companies with their bullying tactics to pay them higher wages or accept less productivity from them. That alone should be enough to make decent people think.

        • BigBadJohn

          Dave,
          “Unions are also immoral because they, in effect, are taking other peoples’ (the company owners, stockholders, etc.) money away ”

          What about CEO who are robbing all corporations blind? They are taking money from the same pockets you are crying about. Do you consider that immoral? Is anyone worth 300 times more than the people who actually do the work?

          In 1965, U.S. CEOs in major companies earned 24 times more than an average worker; this ratio grew to 35 in 1978 and to 71 in 1989. The ratio surged in the 1990s and hit 300 at the end of the recovery in 2000

          http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621/

          • DaveH

            John,
            For something to be “robbery”, the taking has to be involuntary on the part of the victim. The corporations freely pay those exhorbitant wages. Whether they are worth it or not depends entirely on the individual company and how they helped to improve its profits. I personally believe that in a lot of cases they are overpaid, but that is strictly a matter for the owners of the company to decide, not you or me.

          • BigBadJohn

            Dave So let me get this straight. If the workers get together and demand to paid enough to put food on the table – that is robbery. But if the richest people in the company conspire to pay themselves as much as 300 of those workers make, that is OK?

            My point is that both affect the bottom line profitability equally. As a share holder, both are taking money out of my pocket.

          • DaveH

            As a shareholder, you are part owner of the company. You do have a say in that case. But so do the rest of the owners.
            It depends on what you mean by “demand”, John. If they use force, yes that is stealing. I haven’t yet seen the qualifier in the Ten Commandments that says “Thou shalt not Steal, unless you’re hungary”.
            And if the richest people get together and voluntarily give each other their money, that is not stealing.
            I have never heard of a Free Market society where anybody that wants to work is starving.
            Look at the countries on this list ranked by Economic Freedom (Degree of Government Regulation). Pick the country name to get particulars on the country. Notice that the most heavily regulated countries are also the least desirable countries. Also notice that the US is now ranked as being “mostly free”:
            http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx

        • Smilee

          Wow, srewie thinking on your part, look at this point of view it is much more realistic!!

          ——————————————————–

          Janice Thurn: America can’t rise without its workers

          An ongoing shift in business priorities has eroded the American dream

          By JANICE THURN
          I am a middle-aged mother of two, a member of the American workforce, and a former believer in the American Dream. I was raised
          in a family that taught me the value and the honor of hard work. This Labor Day weekend, however, I find myself more disheartened than ever by the state of affairs for the typical American worker. In my lifetime, I have seen the shift from the days when my grandfather’s boss cared about his (yes, union) workers and took the time to know them personally, to the present day wherein most workers are considered disposable — “employees at will.”
          From the days of two-week notices to the current practice of immediate dismissal out the back door, without even a chance to say goodbye to coworkers. From the days when bosses and companies cared about the greater community to the current view that true capitalism means putting your profit even before the survival of your neighbors,
          your state, your country. I do not narrowly place blame on our president for the high unemployment and plight of the working classes. The erosion of the American worker has been decades in
          the making by many. At first it didn’t seem like erosion but rather like pure and simple change. We began to hear how we must all be able to “retool” and adapt to four or five career changes in a lifetime — that this would be the new norm. We began to hear that
          “things are better now” and that unions are no longer necessary. Tragically, what this has come to mean is that workers must not only “retool” but start over at the bottom, again and again, with no rights. This new norm is one in which middle-aged workers who should be in their highest income-earning years instead are trying to hang on to their homes, raise and send their kids to college, and save
          for retirements on $8 to $10 per hour. This new norm cannot sustain a family or the American Dream. Saddest of all is how it has not only been the corporate profiteers and public-policy leaders who have turned against the American worker, but even peers, fellow
          workers who scoff that others “should just be happy they have a job.” They swipe with disdain at those who still fight for decent wages, health insurance, pensions — factors
          that used to be considered the most basic benefits of loyal and honest work and now are treated as luxuries. Underlying the degradation of the American worker has been the increasing
          disparity between the rich and poor and the death of the middle class. It amazes me that we do not daily question how it can be that this or that CEO is somehow worth millions while
          millions of folks who want to work are unemployed.
          Drawing a parallel from Glenn Beck’s recent accusation that some practice a “perversion” of the gospel, I would say that America’s corporate brokers practice a perversion of
          capitalism. They search for the loopholes that will increase their profits often sending those profits and jobs overseas, and they fight tooth and nail against fair-market practices. (The idea, for example, that the corporate profit-driven health insurance
          industry should have to compete with a “public option” was quickly obliterated.) And so we have the forces of corporate America who want all of the privileges and benefits of capitalism without the responsibilities to the greater community and country.
          It is common knowledge that corporate America is sitting on tons of cash that could be used to jump-start innovation and job creation and help our country back on its feet. But we are told that instead the corporations are sitting back to see what the government will do. They want to be sure the government will not ask them (heaven forbid)
          to do anything that will harm their profits. Yet in holding back from hiring, they force the government to have to spend more to help those who are quickly going down. Then they
          cynically repeat their mantras against “big government.” The solution to restarting the American Dream will not come without restoring the value and dignity of the American worker, for they are absolutely intertwined. The real challenge is that the solution cannot come
          from the government, but rather by those with money and power deciding to care again. This Labor Day I would like to be able to tell my own children that a lifetime of hard
          work will matter and will bring them the American Dream. It would be an act of true patriotism if those with the means to do so would help our country back to economic stability by investing once again in the American worker.

      • BigBadJohn

        and you have your head so far your own but that you only read what you want to see…

        I was in a union once – when I was 18 years old. I had a valid union grievance and they did nothing for me. I am no fan of unions.

        However, that does not change the fact that if corporations had their way, you would be making the same wages as someone in Taiwan with absolutely no benefits and the big wigs would be getting twice what they do now in bonuses.

        In the past 8 years worker wages have gone backwards, eliminate unions and wages and benefits will drop dramatically further. I do not like unions, but I DO like the idea of checks and balances and unions are a balance to corporations running rough shod over workers.

        • DaveH

          Corporations, John, only have their way with their employees if the employees let them have their way. There are other jobs, and, if not for Government Busybodies, you could even start your own company and lure some of those talented, underpaid workers away from those Big Bad Corporations.

          • eddie47d

            Dave H. Corporations “only have their way with their employees if the employees let them have their ways”. So true and that is why so many corporations need unions. No employee should have to cut and run away from corporate bullying or poor wages. None of this “go out and find another job” line. Stay and fight for better wages or a better work environment and include all the workers if possible.

          • DaveH

            Yeah, Eddie, stay and form a mob to bully the company into submission.
            Heaven forbid that they should be able to make the decision about how to spend their own money. You should be grateful that the company is willing to give you a job. But no, you’d rather look a gift horse in the mouth, call them “bullies”, and try to take what doesn’t belong to you.

          • eddie47d

            A fair wage belongs to all workers and if workers stand together throughout the nation then businesses can’t force unfair competition on each other. (as long as it is a honest wage and product). You can go into a store and buy a pair of jeans for $12 and the next store has the same jeans for $45. Somebody is screwing someone; one store is gouging and the other is undercutting. They both make the American consumer look stupid and all jeans are made overseas so that really dumbs us down.

    • Gary

      Perhaps they were being paid 50% more thatn they were worth to begin with.

      • BigBadJohn

        you obviously have not lived through any downsizing. I have – twice.
        In both occasions one thing became very clear, the future of the company and the future of the laid off worker was of no concern. The only thing that mattered were bonuses for the executives.

        In both occasions the company would lay off a bunch of workers, the executives would give themselves big bonuses, the company would lose customers, so they had to lay off more people, more bonuses etc etc in a downward spiral.

        I’ll ask you the same question, why should executives be allowed to write themselves exorbitant bonuses at the expense of the workers?

        • 45caliber

          Tell me, if that is the typical spiral, where does it end? It can end ONLY when the business goes bankrupt because they can’t make the product and sell it. And the owners and execs don’t want that to happen. Yes, I’ve seen bonuses handed out for cutting people and I don’t like it. But there are reasons the people are cut. For instance, in a layoff here at my worksite, they laid off everyone suspected of theft. Some were certainly innocent. But they cut theft losses from $3 million a month to about $200,000 a year. So they certainly got most of the ones they suspected/knew were stealing.

          • BigBadJohn

            45
            Laid off workers for theft? I guess they were lucky they were not fired.

            I agree to a point, usually the first round of layoffs are good for everyone. The first to go are usually the dead weight and it improves the remaining workers attitudes because they no longer have to carry that dead weight.

            Where does the downward spiral end? In my case one of them did end a bankruptcy. The other case, the company went from having 95000 workers down to less than 25000 before they got rid of the CEO that was bleeding them dry.

    • Gary

      Why should an employee be able to DICTATE his own wages.

    • wavesofgrain

      That is balogney!!! I paid for 100% health care, dental, life and 4 weeks vacation that they could cash in if they didn’t use each year. I paid for company vacations and Christmas parties. There was also a 100% employer funded profit sharing retirement started. NO UNION HERE. But times are tough now, and I am not even receiving a regular paycheck, yet my employees are. My retirement hopes have been dashed by a pro-union employee and a president that expects me to pay for union pensions with my tax dollars.

      My company was eroded from within by an employee who had formerly worked for a union grocery. He spread bad attitudes and had an affair with a secretary right in front of other employees (married man). He drank on the job, and when I let that girlfriend go, I was threatened with lawsuits from his atty brother, who also still worked a night union job. (Drinking on the job and insubordinance was common place at the auto plant where brother worked. You could NOT fire anyone…-union protects) My small company could not withstand any threats of lawsuits, and all I could do was pray that this guy would PLEASE get another job and leave us in peace. We lost so many customers, and short of hiring a private investigator, I could not gather evidence legally in the workplace without violating any of his “rights”. Other employees witnessed his workplace damage, but after telling me, would not be willing to repeat it, as they were afraid of retaliation.

      He finally did leave for a lesser paying job that had more overtime…a nice union job. But by that time I was nearly having a nervous breakdown and the company was in shambles. The efforts to rebuild it are ongoing, and I am confident we can get it viable again.

      But, UNION influence and attitudes thwart productivity. This administration’s union pushing and allegiance will be the end of the country as we knew it. The bailouts they expect are nothing short of union welfare. Let union companies straighten out their OWN fiscal and fiduciary shortages without demanding non-union private sector employees and employers to fund their pensions and jobs.

      • wavesofgrain

        My reply was in answer to those that said workers would not have any decent wages or treatment if there were no unions. My non-union company had nearly the same…before a bully pro-union employee dragged it down.

      • ARN001

        grow some

        • ARN001

          you definately aint got any…

  • kenny

    I worked for the railroad for over 27years and you had no choice, you have to join the union and pay your union dues, period. I was even promoted to an officers job and in order to maintain my seniority I still had to pay my union dues. Each craft is different on the RR, but all crafts require you to be a member. I think it is a good idea though, because it has kept the feds from being able to get their grubby hands on railroad retirement. the feds are still trying to take it in order to bail out SS, but so far the unions have been able to keep them from getting it.

  • SirWilhelm

    So many of you miss one of the most important parts of the article: “In a truly free society, a worker has one inalienable, overpowering right with regard to his job: He can quit at any time. He is not a slave, so his employer cannot chain him to his work. If he wants to belong to a union he is free to search for employment with a company that allows workers to unionize”. If your workplace is so bad, you can quit, and if all an employer’s workers quit at the same time, he might get the message. On the other hand, if you insist unionization is the only way to fix the workplace, you, in effect, forge your own chains to the work. I have heard many fellow workers refer to themselves many times as “wage slaves”. We have created a system where we enslave ourselves.

    • JRC

      That is only true in a society with plenty of work. As it is the Employers have shipped the work overseas thus creating a situation where they can dictate the terms and many people are lower then slaves because they have no other choice….the proud will stay because they will NOT go on government handouts…they will stay and become slaves to people like Bob.

      • Bruce

        Man, have you been reading the thread or are you just clueless?

        Why do you think they send those jobs overseas? The cost of labor is the highest cost that a business has and it is 100% higher in a unionized firm. The unions are responsible for the losses of those manufacturing jobs! Deal with it!

        Companies need investments to keep current and invest in their growth. That money usually comes from stockholders. Stockholders want a return on their investments and guess what? The unions are investores, too! They continually bite the hands that feed them. Give ‘em the boot, I say!

        • DaveH

          Unions and Big Government are responsible for the loss of those manufacturing jobs.

          • Al Sieber

            DaveH, you hit the nail on the head.

  • David

    The greatest union in the history of the modern world is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. It is the same dynamic and the same reason for being. Solidarity for survival and prosperity.

    • Gary

      The “more perfect union” that our forefathers formed was more concerned with the individual.

  • Mick

    Jerry M says:
    September 2, 2010 at 10:04 am
    I have worked for a major airline for ten years. The union weather it likes it or not,enables complacent and lazy workers. Like our Gov.,they are corrupt with no means to control them.

    Property rights need to stay with the person not the group of persons to override the individual.
    *****************************
    Jerry……You’re so right, unions encourage laziness for their own benefits not for the workers benefit…The less people do the more the company have to hire to complete the jobs that means more union dues coming in, what crooks……….And they have the audacity to ask for bail outs for their pensions from the hard working people….Wake up folks……….What are they doing with the millions of dollars they collect…..Help the democrats get elected to continue putting the screws to decent folks……..

    • BigBadJohn

      “And they have the audacity to ask for bail outs for their pensions from the hard working people…”

      Mick,
      those pension bailouts should not be required. Prior to Reagan all pensions were required to be funded. But REAGAN let corporations raid those funds! Of course all that money went to big bonuses for CEO’s and other officers and they dropped the bill for the unfunded pensions on the American tax payer!

      • Warrior

        And my 401k took a big hit. You should send me some of yours to make up for my shortfalls.

      • DaveH

        So, then, if you are upset with companies being able to “raid” their Pension Funds (that is, to use the money in excess of that needed to service current and future pension liabilities), then you must really be upset with the Government for not even having a Social Security Fund. That money was gone long ago. When a Pension Fund is said to be in “surplus”, they mean it has more than needed in the fund to service current and future retirees. When they say Social Security is in “surplus”, they mean that the Government received more that year than it paid out. There is no Social Security Fund. That money was borrowed or spent decades ago by the good old Government.
        http://mises.org/daily/4528

        • DaveH

          Here’s another:
          http://mises.org/daily/3469

          • Warrior

            Careful or BBJ will come to your house with his blow up RAT.

        • BigBadJohn

          Hell yes I’m mad that they used all of the SS funds!

          I’m mad that Bush and the Republicans spent more in eight years than all previous president combined!

          I’m mad that the democrats are doing the same thing that Bush and the republicans did!

          Give me a choice! Sorry but putting the same people back in power that are responsible for 75% of the national debt is NOT a choice!

          • DaveH

            John,
            If you want Real, Principled Freedom, then look to the Libertarian Party. Don’t tell me they are unelectable as there are many already in office in various local Government positions.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)
            The reason there aren’t more Libertarian Federal Politicians (Ron Paul is one) is twofold:
            1) People that don’t have an intense desire to run other peoples’ lives aren’t attracted to political positions generally.
            2) Voters have boughten in to that “don’t split the vote” crap. And it is crap because everybody has to start somewhere. It takes time to build the political awareness of a political party. Very few people even have a clue as to what and why Libertarian politics would work. But thanks to Fox Business Channel, people are being exposed to our principles through John Stossel and Judge Napolitano.

          • BigBadJohn

            Dave, I was a registered libertarian until election reform in NC dropped them from the ballot. I agree with most of their platform.

            The MAJOR sticking point that I have with them, is they believe that ALL REGULATIONS are bad.
            History shows what happens with no regulations, Predatory monopolies that destroy all other businesses, toxic waste polluting water supplies, S$L crisis, Banking Crisis, basically if is not regulated companies will find the cheapest most profitable way of cutting corners – usually at other peoples expense.

          • DaveH

            John,
            Name me one Monopoly that has ever existed. Not counting the Government granted monopolies. That is just another line of “sweet sounding lies” that Government propagates to pull the wool over peoples’ eyes as they grow ever larger. You have been successfully propagandized.
            And if you studied Libertarian Philosophy you would find that they do advocate adjudication for instances of trespassing on one’s body or property (such as pollution).
            You will find if you read history that the Banks, and Savings and Loans were heavily regulated. In fact the Deposit Insurance that they had to carry by Government Mandate had a lot to do with their gambling of other peoples’ money in risky loans, etc. If not so insured, they would have been a lot more careful with that money. Also, the depositors would probably be a lot more careful about who they trusted their money with if they didn’t think the Government would protect them.
            As far as cutting corners on their products, there is no excuse for anybody who has Internet Skills to buy a shoddy product. There are a vast number of reviews on line for just about anything you might want to buy.
            Are you aware, John, that the Government spends 37% of our Gross Domestic Product? We could take a lot of losses on bad products before we would lose that much money.

          • BigBadJohn

            Dave
            “And if you studied Libertarian Philosophy you would find that they do advocate adjudication for instances of trespassing on one’s body or property (such as pollution).”

            Yes I understand you have the right to sue someone for infringing on your rights.

            Two problems with that, ALL political parties stack the courts with judges who agree with their philosophy. One, under libertarians the courts would be stacked with judges who favor corporate rights over the individuals, after all they do believe in no regulation to start with.

            Two, and this is the biggie, an individual with limited resources has zero chances of beating a corporation with deep pockets in court. Just look at global warming debate now, big oil has hired so many scientist that they have clouded the issue over. In the case of pollution, they would hire scientist that said it was GOOD for you and the individual could not counter with the same number of scientists to prove his point.

  • http://gmail i41

    Al, I’ve been in 2 unions and there is always some simple no minded bastards who have one simple assed skill that is all they can do. Both of the states I worked in was closed shops. The longer the worker stayed around and drug butt, the higher they climbed in work force ranking. If a newer employee had more skills and multiskills, the lazy butt senority dink had to try and do the job, which they couldn’t do but were required company, waste time and money on this slug. Unions create dolts that cann’t and will not do any bargining for themselves. I have worked for companies that had told workers that they would give 1.35 hr raises if the union repeps would not strike or waste 6 months on renegotions, we all got the raises, the uniondips struck, stopped production, all lower senority workers were laid off or quit, the company took back raises, brought in more automation. 2 years later, when production returned, union went by the wayside, all employees were on their skills and speed, only 25 % of the union dinks were able to multitask. Unions will keep getting hammered even more, when the deals with the purple lipped marxist, muslim, moron in charge gets exposed as the democraps behind closed door deals surface for sunlight.

    • Mick

      So true i41………….

    • Al Sieber

      i41, I’ve only belonged to one union in my life, and that was enough. Ariz., where I live is a right to work state.

    • Marilyn

      THANK YOU!!

  • Patriot

    Unions at one point were needed to stop the exploitation of the workers and in some circumstances are required, to protect the worker from those greedy buinsess owners trying to make a profit! Answer me this; why is it then the the largest Unions in the country are now Public Employess? Who are we trying to protect these people from….our own Government? We need to wake up!

    • Warrior

      Patriot,
      Since government employees are the the only area of employment that unions are making gains, what does that tell us? Why do government employee’s need to be unionized? If the argument is that business’s are just greedy and need to share their wealth, this must indicate that government is more greedy than private business.

      OR, is there a more sinister plot afoot. Power + Money = Corruption.

      On a somewhat related subject, can anyone find a comparison of the net worth of our illustrious congress creatures over the past year or two? It may provide some interesting insights.

      • DaveH

        Stop it you guys. You are going to make Liberal heads explode with all that logic.

      • Patriot

        Exactly! It would be nice to be able to audit all these people, unions, etc. Follow the money and you find the truth!

  • Wanda Murline

    I am not a Libitarian..I am an independent, but I agree with this view. The workers did not start the business or pay for the business, or take the financial risk for its success…the business owner did and no one should be able to take his business. I have felt this way for years, and some day, someone is going to the Supreme Court because of it…it needs to be heard. If they want to unionize and the owner does not want it, then he should be able to hire people to work who don’t want to be in a union. The unions are killing America…they have priced their products so that businesses are outsourcing them to other countries. In the beginning of the unions, it was a good thing, but now it is an encumbance. The unions should be broked up as a monopoly because the only ones that actually benefit from the unions are the union bosses…they become rich off the worker’s initiative. Unionism of one’s business without their permission is clearly against the Constitution and it should be stopped and right now.

  • Wanda Murline

    In addition to the above, I also believe that a person should be able to get a job without having to belong to a union. I live in Texas, and it is a right to work state…every state in the US should be a right to work state, which means that you can get a job without having to join a union. This should be your constitutional right as provided by our forefathers…

    • Mick

      BK says:
      September 2, 2010 at 10:41 am
      Excellent and timely article. In agreement 100%. Unions have become nothing more than an extendsion of the Democratic party. Unions dues are collected and used to support local democratic candidates running for political office. Democrats then return that support by passing laws that favor the union whether that legislation is in the best interest of the country/state or not. Unions cannot pay the benefits they promised to their members. American tax-payers are now being asked to fund benefits for union members, and to maintain union jobs (teachers). Major corporations provide a reasonably safe and healthy workplace, comparable pay with like industry, health insurance (reasonable co-pays), and 401K’s. A company should not have to move to another state to prevent unionization as stated above. Also, for the comment that unions counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich; the rich have always been the provider of jobs along with the opportunity of becoming rich yourself if your willing to work hard and learn the skills required to move up the chain of command in the company.
      ****************************************************
      BK……………….
      Perfect comment……..

      • Soldier

        LOL, right to work??? You do not have a right to work. Your right to work means you essentially have a right to oppress the employer who must give you that work no matter what. This is why no, we do not have a right to health care because your right to health care implies your right to oppress the doctors and nurses who no matter what would be forced to slave to provide you your health care.

        A right means it can’t be violated, PERIOD, unless you violate another’s right. For example, you have a right to own a gun, PERIOD, unless you decide to go on a shooting spree as a Jeffrey Domner type. Confiscation of your firearms in this case would be appropriate as long as your status as a complete effing sociopath was proven in a court of law in accordance with our consititution.

        • DaveH

          “Right to Work” is a euphemism, Soldier. It means that you can not be forced to join a Union as in States that allow “closed shops” where you either belong to the Union or don’t work at that company.

          • Al Sieber

            DaveH, thanks for the statement, and the links for the Libertarian party.

  • RLRiedel

    Unions serve a purpose for those WHO WILLINGLY join. I believe that Union bosses should be held criminally and civilly responsible for harassment and/or violence done at their encouragement. Why hasn’t a law like this been passed yet?

    • DaveH

      Because Government is in their pocket.

  • BK

    Excellent and timely article. In agreement 100%. Unions have become nothing more than an extendsion of the Democratic party. Unions dues are collected and used to support local democratic candidates running for political office. Democrats then return that support by passing laws that favor the union whether that legislation is in the best interest of the country/state or not. Unions cannot pay the benefits they promised to their members. American tax-payers are now being asked to fund benefits for union members, and to maintain union jobs (teachers). Major corporations provide a reasonably safe and healthy workplace, comparable pay with like industry, health insurance (reasonable co-pays), and 401K’s. A company should not have to move to another state to prevent unionization as stated above. Also, for the comment that unions counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich; the rich have always been the provider of jobs along with the opportunity of becoming rich yourself if your willing to work hard and learn the skills required to move up the chain of command in the company.

    • tg7357

      Classic example is the teachers unions. Right now the Feds are bailing them out on their retirement funds and propping up schools in states that don’t need bail-outs but are being forced to take them anyway.

    • J.Michael

      You should work for Walmart. It’s not too late to get under cut by a business that has the means to run you out of business. “No child left behind” was a Bush deal. Major corporations only provide what they have to and try to get out of everything they can,i.e. the recent mining accident and are you having eggs this morning? After many years corporations have gotten better,but not all of them did it out of the kindness of their hearts. You should really study the overall picture instead of being myopic. Maybe you should ask the relatives of the people that died on the BP oil rig. Do you really think that corporations go to third world countries because the people there are more understanding of the employee/employer relationship? Dude, get off the kool-aide.

      • DaveH

        The mining accidents and the BP accidents both happened in a time of heavy Government regulation. How much more do they need to create before you wake up and realize Big Government is not the solution?
        Get your kool-aid, sit down, and watch this video:
        http://mises.org/media/4841

        • BigBadJohn

          Actually you need to check your facts – the mining accident and the BP accident happened because Bush cut all enforcement of existing regulations. The oil drillers in the gulf were basically writing their own permits. That is the main reason Obama tried to a halt on drilling in the gulf – until they could come up with some way of enforcement.

          • DaveH

            Do you have references for that claim, John?
            Here is a pretty good article on the Oil Spill:
            http://reason.org/news/show/liable-gulf-oil-spill

          • DaveH

            And remember, John, when bashing Bush, you cannot make him liable for events that happened under Obama.
            Here’s more on Government involvement:
            http://reason.org/news/show/dont-nationalize-bp

          • BigBadJohn

            “And remember, John, when bashing Bush, you cannot make him liable for events that happened under Obama.”

            Then why is conservatives like to blame Carter for Reagan’s 10 percent unemployment even though Reagan had been in office for three years?

            Or why do republicans try to blame 9/11 on Clinton when Bush was in office?

            Or why do republicans try to blame the whole financial crisis on democrats even though Bush was in office when it started?

          • BigBadJohn

            Dave there a bunch of links, this one is pretty good:
            http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_6020.shtml

            Then, also in 2005, the Bush-Cheney administration allowed the U.S. oil and gas industry to regulate itself. The federal agency responsible for managing oil and gas resources and for collecting royalties from companies, the Interior Department’s Minerals Management Service (MMS), decided, on August 30, 2005, that oil companies, rather than the government, were in the best position for determining their operations’ environmental impacts. In effect, MMS decided on that date to de facto merge its services with those of the oil companies, even to the point of letting the oil industry fill out MMS’s inspection reports. MMS officials also had other cozy relations with the companies they were supposed to regulate.

  • http://dakinehale@yahoo.com dakinehale

    I am in a job that is union membership as a condition of employment and it sucks as i have real problems with the political bent of this union. I will be going on the beck program after this election cycle as I want to see what the union wants me to vote for so that I can vote the other way. It also sucks that I have to pay to have a job to a union that refuses to work with me and my department at work.

    • ARN001

      find another one

  • JRC

    So, What Bob is saying basically is this, he owns the property and NOBODY has a right to tell him what to do on the property….
    So basically, he is for slavery, sweatshops, child labor, extortion of the workers, having foreman in the factory hurt workers, starve workers, ungodly hours, no vacation, no health care, no social security….well that’s what it is…after all, Bob does not believe in human rights, workers rights, minimum wage, a persons freedom….all those are laws that are on the book restricting the use of “”his property””…..but he is all for extortion of the workers for personal greed….way to go Bob, you are a true conservative.

    • Soldier

      Not quite Sir…. Libertrains do beleive in RESTRICTING and EVEN TAKING AWAY rights, if YOU TAKE AWAY RIGHTS first. I.e., a libertrain would beleive in taking away seriel rapists and murders right to life (so long as he is convicted 100% in a court of law accordance with our constitution) since the Jeffrey Domner took away many people’s right to life. What you are insuniating is anarcism. Anarcism is different from libertrainism.

      In your example, child sweat shops would obviosly violate the child’s right to life in a sense and so could be ruled illegal.

      • JRC

        Fine, But Bob does NOT care, he does not care if it is illegal…it infringes on his right to do on his property whatever “he” wants…that is what he is saying…he is saying fux you bill of rights, fux you laws, Fux you rules, I do what I want because this is my property….this is the mentality people had when they bought slaves…and it is sick that in today’s age people are proud to again display this mentality.

        • DaveH

          Do you believe in the right to spend your money as you please, JRC?
          That is all that Robert is saying. All the other crap you “basically” put on him is sheer fabrication.
          Child labor is different things to different people. The only problem really comes if the children are forced to work. That would be the parents, usually, not the Corporations. Or perhaps Government (not in our country), but not the Corporations. If the children want to work, why not? You would discourage young people from learning a work ethic?
          Slavery also involves force. It is not force for a Corporation to offer a low wage. You don’t have to work for them.
          However, a strike line is force when they harass the customers and replacement workers (sometimes much worse things). And it is force to enlist the Government as your Bully Boys to ram your agenda down the throats of Business Owners under threat of jail or fines.
          How could you be so ignorant not to see that reality?

    • cella

      Could not have been said any better. The people in this country have been so brainwashed by the likes of Glen and Rush that people think if you make 10 dollars an hour you are over paid. Well all you seniors out there waiting on your Social Security check to come, I can tell you Glen and Rush live on millions laughing at you fools all the way to the bank.

      • DaveH

        If you make over $10 an hour, you ARE overpaid.

        • BigBadJohn

          LOL then at my $60/hr you must think I am a congressman……

          • Al Sieber

            BBJ, all our representatives steal from us anyways.

          • DaveH

            Are you? LOL.

  • Soldier

    Property rights are sacred, sure, but what if all the property is obtained through ill measures? When the New World Order owns all the resources, do we as libertarians just throw our hands up and say, we can’t do anything, its all their property and they have a right to do what they want with it???

    Here is an example, big biz colludes with government to destroy the economy, the big banks / big biz then buy up everything for pennies on the dollar. Do they then have the right to do whatever they want as it is essentially “their” property (of course the property was ill obtained, but hey, it is their property now).

    Food for thought. Even libertrain philosophy has its limits.

    • DaveH

      Bad logic, Soldier. Please, before you spout Libertarian philosophy, learn what it is:
      http://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf
      First of all, under Libertarians there wouldn’t be a bad economy. But besides that, unlawful acquisition of property is not condoned by Libertarianism. And, we would have a much smaller Government that owned very little of the property in the country.
      If by thoughtful investment certain people acquired large amounts of property, then you just need to figure out what you can do for them or others to earn the money to buy that property. And it would be for sale eventually, even if the acquisitor was a hoarder. It is a well known saying that the Grandfather acquires the wealth; the Son maintains the wealth; and the Grandson squanders the wealth.

  • J.Michael

    The unions have become just as corrupt as CEO’S/Management and politcians. Unions are supposed to be a foil against corporate greed and trying to make slaves out of the worker, not to mention the conditions they were made to work in. Unfortunately, the union bosses have lost site of what made unions needed. Some people think it’s so easy to just pack-up and leave. I’ll bet he wants to repeal child labor laws. This guy, Mr. Ringer, sounds like a TYRANT. I’m sure he wants slavery back. What about CEO compensation,a person can run a company into the ground and walk away with millions of dollars, while the people loose thier jobs.” I don’t believe any worker has a right to unionize without the permission of his employer”, well, I beleive that pretty much says it all for this chump. What next, we have to get permission to breathe? Property rights!?!?! What property rights were considered when Kings and Queens gave property to people that the royalty didn’t own? What property rights were considered when President Andrew Jackson broke the treaties and ran out the Indians? What property rights were considered when men can buy people and make them slaves? Tell me, who’s rights are violated when a corporation can pollute the environment so much it’s toxic to the people who live there? All the while they live some where else and are not affected. Is that the “trickle down” theory? This guy is a despot!!!!

  • tg7357

    My husband works for a major airline, but is not in the union there. When he went to get a 2nd job and they found out who he worked for, they asked him if he was in the union. Since he wasn’t, they gave him the job. When he asked why, they told him that they did not hire union people from that particular airline because they were lazy, unreliable and caused them too many headches.

  • J.M.R.

    over the years i worked for three unions of the three only one was worth my union dues the other two were a joke. one was the ALF-CIO the other was a retail clerks. the good one another retail clerks from a different city. so as far as i’m concerned the hell with unions. there was a time when they needed but they became corrupt like our government so they need to be stopped.

  • Marilyn

    Yes, Unions will take a bashing today. I intend to do that. Companies that do not unionize get along just fine. U.S. could learn from the Japanese car industry. There are numerous, honest businesses in our country. Most do not want to lose their workers and pay decent, good wages and treat employees with respect and dignity. Many years ago when Industrialization needed unions to regulate companies, as child labor, poor working conditions, excessive hours in the work place, etc. Unions were indeed needed and appreciated. Unions of today have outlived their welcome. Unions have caused the auto industry to go belly-up! God only knows what other unionized businesses have failed due to union demands. ALERT TO ALL BUSINESSES, SCHOOLS, MEDICAL FACILITIES AND COMMUNITY SERVICES: KEEP UNIONS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY DESTROY, TAKE YOUR HARD EARNED DOLLARS, SQUANDER YOUR MONEY AND MAKE YOUR LIFE A MISERABLE HELL.

    UNIONS HAVE OUTLIVED THEIR USEFULNESS.

    • IAFarm

      The JAPANESE care industry is subsidized by the Japanese government.

      Japanese Banks are subsidized by the Japanese government and live3 by their OWN set of “generally accepted accounting principles”.

      The “one-world, free-trade, international-banking” crowd that controls the U.S. gov’t thru their “frat boy connections from elite – mostly Ivy League universities” won’t allow any pressure on the Japanese – or any other govt. that would put THEIR businesses on the same economic basis as ones that have to operate under U.S. law ( might lose the leases on our overseas military and intelligence bases ).

      Calif. is in the pickle they’re in because the elected officials didn’t have the guts to say “No, we aren’t agreeing to those wage increases” and letting the govt. services shut-down”. They didn’t want to explain to Calif. voters that “No, YOU can’t have-it-all just because you live in The Golden State without paying for it – taxing yourselves to pay for it”.

      Other states – like my own Iowa – did the same thing by having governors-for-life who were adept at keeping two – or more – sets of books for decades. Now their successors have to pay-the-piper.

      Too bad that we have become a country of Laws but not Justice. But we are no longer a Nation of people working toward the common good – “with Liberty and Justice for all” but a “country” of individuals seeking only their own material success and attracting “immigrants” who have no concept of “the common good” but see the geographical U.S. as just a place they can come to for making more money than in their own “aristocratically controlled” home lands.

  • Captain

    Unfortunately, I fear that many on this thread, including the author of the article, failed to notice that this ruling by the NMB is directed solely toward those entities, airlines and railroads, that operate under the Railway Labor Act. All this new ruling does is allow the airline or railroad to count the votes turned in, as apposed to counting all votes as “no votes” for those who choose NOT to even cast a vote as has been the case from inception. In the history of this country we have always been ruled by those willing to cast a vote, including the presidential elections. In light of new technology there is no chance that every employee would not have a chance to voice his/her opinion regarding a union on the property, so should a vote for or against a union operating under the RLA be different?

    I understand the Union Bashing in this thread, however I fear that any comparison between another unionized job, especially the auto industry, and the two industries, airlines and railroads, that operate under the Railway Labor Act is a poor one at best. I would suggest an investigation into the Railway Labor Laws before making any decision on this ruling by the NMB. The Railway Labor laws were instituted by Congress, and prevent the employees from striking a job without approval by the NMB, as they feared that a breakdown in the transportation industry might harm the country.

    And I would offer that pilots in the airline industry cannot merely “quit” and find another job, as this is the only job that I am aware of where your experience is not carried from job to job. To leave as a captain at one airline and begin at another mandates that you begin at the bottom of a list of first officers at a starting pay of $14-24 per flight hour (a pilot gets paid for approximately 1 hour for every 3 clock hours worked). So a simple “quit” and get another job, although altruistic, is not always a viable option.

    Sadly, I see unions as a necessary evil as long as managements continue to abuse employees.

    • ValDM

      You really think airline pilots are abused? REALLY?????

    • IAFarm

      “All this new ruling does is allow the airline or railroad to count the votes turned in, as apposed to counting all votes as “no votes” for those who choose NOT to even cast a vote as has been the case from inception.”

      So, in an election for President, Senator, Rep., State Legislator, Stte Judge, dogcatcher, those who chose not to vote at all should be counted as “none of the above”?

      Well, maybe that’s NOT such a bad idea.

      • DaveH

        I agree, IAFarm.

    • DaveH

      Captain,
      You need to reread Robert’s article. He clearly states “But the proposed new rule would require only that a majority of employees who actually vote on the question of unionization would be needed to unionize”.

  • Raggs

    Robert, good article and I would have to say that I agree with you….

  • Commonsense

    Amen, Mr. Ringer. If, like you say that the property is gotten through legitimate means, it is as sacred as personal rights. Today people are trying to unionize our minds by using words such as fair and equal when it comes to jobs, money, or property. Thats crap! I have worked hard for what I own and shouldn’t have to worry about it being taken because someone wants their fair share of what I worked for! Every job I have worked in my life was non-union because I have found I can climb any ladder through hard work and ingenuity faster than a no load can through a union. People who want unions generally are no loads who want to sit on their asses and still get paid for it. It’s called “freeloader solidarity”. You show me a union worker, and I’ll show you a person who doesn’t and won’t work because they think their entitled.

    • Warrior

      Ok then, let’s just grade on the curve and everyone gets a trophy!

    • DaveH

      That’s been my observation.
      My dad was a foreman at a cement plant. He happened by a conveyor that was stalled by a trapped bag of cement. The Union guys were just standing around looking helpless, so he got on a ladder and pulled the bag out. They turned in a grievance the next day because he was “taking their work away”.

  • Marilyn

    ps: I FORGOT TO ADD THE AIRLINES TO THE ALERT

  • Warrior

    Does anyone know if there is a sunset date on affirmative action programs or is it just considered “in perpetuity”? Just asking.

  • lucylu

    Unions are now too involved with the government. When Obama was running for President, my husbands union came to our door demanding we vote for for him. Hundreds of thousands dollors from unions is paid into campaigns (SEIU). Then the government uses the unions to bully the populance. Just about every Socialist country and dictator has used unions for their agenda.

    • Charley41

      I agree with you lucy, unions are corrupt too political, and I belonged to one for the last 5 yr. of my career and it was useless.
      Going to be one of the causes of our great country to fail. Please don’t let unions take more control than they already have.
      Thanks Robert

    • cella

      Really. Is that what Glen told you, you brainless idiot. I have belonged to and retired from a union company, and except for endorsing someone, which if you had a brain, you would only vote for who you want. Ever hear of the Koch brothers. Top 7 richest people in the world. They support Republicans. Thats life, but if you do not have a brain to sort out your own thoughts without thinking Glen or Rush are the gospel. The Teamsters Union has never knocked on my door and demanded me to vote for anyone. I truly think you are a liar I think you hate unions cause Glen told you to, but I can tell you if someone came to my door and told me who to vote for I would shut the door in their face. I am very opiniated, and Glen Beck would not have to influence on me, neither does Keith Oberman or who ever. That is the problem with you spineless idiots who live and breathe Fox.

      • tg7357

        cella says:
        September 2, 2010 at 2:02 pm
        Really. Is that what Glen told you, you brainless idiot. I have belonged to and retired from a union company, and except for endorsing someone, which if you had a brain, you would only vote for who you want~~~Lucy has a point. The same thing happened in the city where I live over a tax on fixing up the riverfront. We got letters from our employers urging us to vote yes on the stupid tax that wasn’t going to benefit anyone but the downtown people. The airline in town, and several of the major corporations with union workers all sent out letters. Only 1 of the corporations was actually located in the city, the rest just got money from it.
        And by the way, a lot of people don’t listen to Glenn Beck: they form their own opinions. This tar-brushing that the left seems to think is the right and best way to deal with anyone who disagrees with them is getting very old very fast. You owe Lucy an apology.

      • coal miner

        cella

        Glen Beck is a ex alcoholic and nut case.

      • DaveH

        More personal attacks and fabricated facts from the Liberal Cella.
        Chew on this Cella:
        http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2008/10/13/the-rich-support-mccain-the-super-rich-support-obama/

  • Bad Cyborg

    Robert, I agree with you pretty much all the way. Where we might part company is on the subject of unionizing a company. I would submit that I as an individual have the right to associate with whomever I choose. That would including joining whatever associations or organizations I chose. If I as an individual were to choose to join a Union (and if I actually WERE to choose to do so then I fervently hope someone would do me the kindness of fitting me for a canvass windbreaker) so long as that choice did not directly affect your business, then it would be none of your business.

    But I suspect we are talking about two different things here. My joining a union – even if it meant a majority of my peers did so also – would not be within your purview to approve or disapprove. But if unionization includes forcing the business owner to negotiate solely with the union and forcing all employees to join said union then I am utterly against it. I have always lived in “open shop” states. Employees can join/create/organize a labor union if they choose but there is nothing to force the business owner to negotiate with that union – or even recognize that it exists at all! THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE!

    Hflashman: I am well versed in American History including the history of unions. I will grant you that at the very beginning they might have served a useful purpose. Unfortunately that time is many generations gone. Today’s unions do nothing constructive and much that is downright DE-structive and even counter to the best interests of their memberships. Unions nowadays are just another avenue to power. They are an anachronism. I have seen nothing of the actions of unions that makes me desire to be part of one. I do not even like the idea of police and firefighter unions. The only good thing about police unions is they give me an indication of whether the D.A. is any good. I figure if the police union doesn’t endorse the incumbent D.A. he/she must not be very tough on crime.

    Bad Cyborg X%er
    Burying your head in the sand only makes your a** a better target.

  • PTK

    Excellent and concise exegesis on the philosophy of libertarianism. It is seldom explained as clearly.

    It would be nice if government would allow us the same freedom of choice God gives us, for better or for worse. Nothing is more futile or disastrous as having the morons of central planning dictate what you will or won’t do with your life. As Jefferson said, “If we were directed by Washington when to reap and when to sow, we would soon want for bread”.

    Unions arose in response to abuse by management. But they soon created their own problem: they quickly developed levels of corruption that equaled or exceeded that of management. In today’s age they’ve become nothing more than parasites that garner excessive compensation for the lucky few, while denying employment to those that management can’t hire because they’re paying the others too much. Unions don’t take the rap when corporations or city and state governments go bankrupt. They don’t even admit the extent of their culpability, which in many cases is considerable. One has to look no further than California and New Jersey to prove that point.

    What’s the lesson here? Human nature is human nature, and it transcends coalitions and parties and religions. A group that rises to power vowing to end greed and corruption will soon prove the point – “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. It’s why the individual should be exempted as much as possible from the control of any group the individual does not give consent to.

    Please add one more to your minority, Mr. Ringer.

    • Warrior

      Don’t forget Illinois, quite possibly every bit equal to California.

    • DaveH

      That reminds me of a guy who tried to convince me to join a Union in my early 30′s. He was a brute of a man, and somewhat of a bully. I told him “why would I want to join a Union and have two bosses? One is enough for me”. He about came unglued, muttering something about we all have many bosses and I should get used to it.

  • 45caliber

    Perhaps I look at property a little differently than most people.

    You work (sell your time and skills) to acquire money with which to buy things. If you do a good job, your time should be more valuable to your employer and he should pay you more. If you don’t do a good job, then you should be fired.

    On the other hand, the money represents the time you sold to an employer. If you buy an iPod with it, that iPod represents part of your life. If it is stolen, someone has stolen part of your life.

    Self defense is basically defending your life from someone else’s agression. Since property you own was bought at the expense of your life, if you defend property you own you are defending your life.

    So if some scum gets shot while stealing something, I have no more sympathy for them than if they had been trying to kill their victim. They were still trying to take the victim’s life, even though they were trying to take only part of that life.

    Basically it is the same for taxes. The government collecting the taxes is taking part of your life to use as it decides. Some things, like national defense, I’m willing to pay for. But other things, such as allowing someone else to use that part of my life to make their own life easier is wrong. The way I see it, why should I work (and sell more of my life) so that someone else can have more personal time to enjoy his life by using my life?

    • Gary

      Very well said 45.

    • Al Sieber

      45, good statement, people shouldn’t be afraid to use any force necessary to protect your life and property, I’ve had to do it numerous times and won’t hesitate to do it again.

    • DaveH

      Good thinking, 45.

  • Warrior

    The only answer for Libertarians may be to unionize themselves so they can get a seat at the table with Big Gov. I’ll lead the charge. Everyone send me $1 to join my union and I’ll represent you in Washington. We will then qualify for bailouts and all sorts of other perks and you will thank me.

    • DaveH

      LOL. Nice try, Warrior, but we are a party of Principles. We don’t compromise our Principles like Democrats and Republicans do.

  • Gary

    It looks like we may be getting to the root of it now. How dare a business owner expect to make money with his business. He shouldn’t be keeping any of the money HIS company makes. He should give all HIS money to the workers.
    I completely agree with Mr. Ringer on this one. It is the business owners right to run his business the way he sees fit. There are many laws to protect laborers including minimum wage laws. When an employee signs on with a company he is agreeing to offer his services for a particular rate of pay. He is free to leave anytime he feels that he is not getting a fair shake. The unions only hinder the individuals ability to advance on his own merit. As long as the union worker shows up and does his bit he can keep his job even if his ability or his work ethic sucks. How can a business operate at peak efficiency if labor union employees are making way more money than what the job is worth. There was a time when unions may have been needed but not today.

  • Tom Davis 1925

    I am a retired military officer and also a retired dental educator from the UMDNJ. First, on unionizing the military; ABSOLUTRLY NOT for very obvious reasons. At the UMDNJ, in the 1970s we were saddled with an overbearing, dictatorial Dean at the Dental School and a similarly dictatorial University Presidentwith the University’s main campus located right in the middle of Newark, New Jersey’s strike-blighted Fifth and Central Wards. Newark was controled by a Black administration and the Univesity was surrounded by some very outraged black citizens. It was not a nice area in which to educate primarily white, long-haired, wannabe professionals. The aforementioned Dean of the Dental School proposed a hare-brained scheme to reduce the Dental Program from four years to three years. We, the faculty and Administration had been considering extending the program to five years in order that students would be better prepared. The faculty of the co-located Medical school were also very concerned with the educational program. Together, the faculties of both schools and thethen separate Rutgers Medical School join together and formed a union with the distinct and stated puupose of studying, and revising the total curicula in all three schools. Now, here’s the rub; those in leadership positions in the union prepared bylaws addressing working conditions and salary structures for faculty. I had been in the forefront of the original organizational activity and my objections to the direction being taken were overriden and the organizationa bylaws were adopted and approved by the administration. Though, faculty were seriously undercompensated, the matter of compensation was not the origianl issue, nor was sick time, leave time, etc. The union flexed its muscle; there was no limit on sick time, it could not be accumulated and compensation paid later to those who were diligent in their attendnce and performance. A case in point: One individual originally hired (appointed) as the Dean of Financial Affairs and given a tenured Faculty appointment as an Associate Professor of Operative Dentistry was routinely late, ultimately took a six-month ‘sick’ leave in order to ease his ailing back. It was later learned,by his admission, that he had gone to California on a prolonged skiing vacation. He threatened legal action if the administration attempted to demote or withhold compensation.
    The origianl intntions of the Union were never acomplished and only a survey, conducted within the Dental School brought to light the Dean’s incompetence, he was forced out, the dental program was extended back to four years, a new dean was appointed, proved inept, indecisive and unable to lead. MY point–Unions have the potential for good but generally (always) succumb to the greed ot its leaders.

    Dr. Thomas E. Davis, Colonel, USA (ret)
    Monroe Twp, New Jersey

  • Steve

    I find the idea of any one being forced to join a union as offensive as I do the idea you hold out that the owner of a company should be able to demand ‘HIS’ workers can’t join a group. I see no problem with 51 of your 100 workers saying you have to do z, y and z or we will not work for you. I do see a major problem with the other 49 being forced to join them and see as big a problem with the view that the 51 can’t talk to you as a group.

  • Richard

    I think that the unions were a nessisary at one time, however the unions have lost their way in so much that the union leaders lavish themselves with extravagances paid for by union dues. Alot of the reasons that the unions came into existance were for protection of the workers in the work place, most of those concerns are now governed by laws and monitored by OSHA. The problem with unions now is that there is no way to fire someone who is derilict in their job because they are protcted by the union, there is no place for someone who is motivated to want to move up because there is the guy that has been there longer than you that gets first choice for a job that promotes even if he has no qualifications for the job other than being longer in the work place. There is no place for mtivated people in unions, they destroy initiative and desire to become more productive and better your position in life. The unions have placed themselves in a position of not being tolerated by alot of people in this sense. If I don’t like my situation I am free to look somewhere else and get a better deal on my own. I’ve always been able to negotiate for myself based on my abilities to get the job done and not be held back by someone that doesn’t even know my name.

  • Brad

    Robert,

    Your article was inspiring to say the least, your article reminds me what happened to a company at one specific job site I used to work at. The UAW had tried a few times to unionize Dyncorp employee’s at NAS Patuxent River, MD, well their first attempt fell flat on their faces, the employee’s said no. The unions second attempt also fell flat with the employee’s soundly saying no. Now is where this story starts taking a turn, the economy was boomimg, home prices were high, oil was $145 a barrel and Dyncorp the company and the Pax river site management turned their back on the employee’s. They wouldn’t go to bat for the employee’s to ensure they got a pay raise from the government. Long story short, the employee’s hadn’t seen a raise in over two years and the company was having the employee pay more out of pocket expenses for their employee benefits.

    I left Dyncorp for a better position in Feb 07, the union had been petitioning the employees for the last six months and once they had 50+1% of the employee’s signing pledge cards the union requested a vote from the DOL. Well, in Mar 07 approximately 345 employee’s voted out of the 795 eligible to vote. Of the 345 that did vote approximately 195 employee’s voted for the union and 150 voted against, the union came in. So, of the 450 employee’s that didn’t vote, they let less than 30% of the employee’s decide their fate. Sure the employee’s did see a raise after collective bargenning took place and a new contract was negociated. In the long run the employee lost, the company guit paying 401K match, all insurance programs ended and the company came down hard but did not cross the line with the union.

    Sure there has been times when employee’s have had problems with management which ended up going to collective bargenning. In the end those guy’s who voted for the union are paying 2 hr’s a pay period in dues plus the employee has to pay for their own insurance; ie medical, dental, death and long/short term disabilaty. The company only pays an annual safety boot allowance and all employee’s have to ware company uniforms. In my opinion the company deserved what they got because management was bad and only a few had real control at each specific job site, middle management/supervisors were at best lackey’s better yet yes men to each site manager.

    Could Dyncorp have fired all their employee’s they owned the business but they didn’t own the land, the government does and Dyncorp was supplying bodies for a service contract to the government working on government property. What could the author of this article do, probably nothing, maybe patition DOL that 195 out of the 795 employee’s voted for the union. It’s been three years since the vote, the union is still in place but Dyncorp is having a hard time finding qualified people to fill their vacancies.

    My last thought on this matter are as follows, if less than 50% of the employees vote, the vote shall be null and void, reason less than 50% will be deciding the fate of all the employee’s. Unions were good and had a perpose in there day but in today’s society they tend to destroy the name union by requiring ungodly amounts of money for their people. Today California and a few company’s can’t afford there retirement benefits because they negotiated these larg contracts that now are bankrupting the system. Vallejo, California is a prime example when unions run amuck of the system, the city had to file for bankruptsy protection. The city of New York, teachers accused of a abusing a child is removed from the classroom and sent to the rubber room for up to two years with pay before their case evan reaches binding arbitration. IMHO unions need to go away they served their purpose now they are just greedy and want more power over the people. Prime example the unions just pledged over 88 million dollars to re-elect democ “Rats” to congress, enough said.

    • marvin

      and the sad part is not all union members are liberal dems but like all goverment and unions when they get your dues or tax money they can just about do what they want with it they decide who get what like the 20 million illegals here you can give them amnesty and 99% percent will vote dembocrat like wise for the union bosses

  • John Q.

    As a long time Union member, and a steward as well, I think Unions should back off this form of mandatory socialism. I also think Unions should not be allowed to spend my dues on politics without my express approval, and that members should be able to “opt-out” of that with their dues. I want dues to go to strike funds, retirement plans, expenses needed, etc., not into the pocket of a politician.
    Imagine if Congress passed a law saying your had to “mandatory” give a percentage of your pay to the Democratic Party. Or the Republican Party for that matter? That’s what it is like in a Union today! I think that should be illegal, and if Congress or the Courts had a hair on their rear, would make it so. Nobody should have to pay money to buy politicians not of their choosing just to have a job. It’s just plain wrong.

    • Warrior

      Spot on John.

    • DaveH

      Actually, John, they are doing that right now with their vote-buying Federal Subsidies.

  • FreedomFighter

    The Progressive/Liberal Communist Agenda has no honor built into it, the leadership have not honor, they are thugs, thieves, and liars in expensive suites.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

  • marvin

    unions, the federal employs are union average wage $100,000 a year wanted a 2.8% pay raise, obama said that to much so he cut it to 2.2%,98% of teacher are union member back when i was in school in the fifty,s a 69 was an F now an F is what 64 still kids flunk if a teacher could not or would not do their job they were replaced,now to replace a bad teacher is next to impossable,i have worked in both union and none union jobs, the great unions bankruped the steel mills the auto company the air lines and have been a big part in bankruping the federal goverment, you can only take so much blood out of a human befor thay die like wise with a company,i have ran a small company orr two ,and if an employ said to me, i think this will work better,i would try it, but if that same person or anyone said here is what we are going to do, their check was made out right then,when it getts to costing $2000 per car for your insurance and i have to pay my own something is bad wrong,when the white house is in bed with the unions and all obama and the liberals can say for his trillion dollar bamboozle is we saved millions of teacher and cop and fire fighters job mostly all union jobs, not one word about the regular people [none union] mabe 1 in 10 were none union then tell me who is really running this country,when you have a union like isu with illegals paying dues to work at a job they should not have, when the unions can get in to see obama any time they want,as for the secret ballet an,t no one,s bussiness how you vote that why it is called secret

  • Eric

    You are a minority of at least two! What you have put forth here is something that needs to be blasted from the roof tops! Thank you for your courage.

  • Jason

    There once was a car interior manufacture in Johnstown Ohio, who’s workers wanted a union. The workers finally got their union and guest what, The factory file Bankrupt and then moved to Mexico leaving the new union with nothing to be a union over. Hammer and Sickles (☭) never really work in a free country of America. In this instant the company won against Socialism by moving to mexico for cheap labor and did not have to surrender to union control. Besides the union owners are only in it for the worker’s dues of $600 or more dollars a year. Nice pay check for union bosses if there are 40,000 or more workers as in the airline and railroad workers. If you don’t like the working conditions then leave. If all the worker do not like the working conditions then all walk off the job and see if the owner doesn’t fix things in a hurry because he’s losing money and contracts every day the factory doesn’t run. You don’t need a union for that. If skilled worker are involved, the owner can’t hire just anybody to do the work off the street. See, you can accomplish the same without a union organization. Let’s de-socialize America before we become officially the Soviet America(U.S.S.A.)

    • IAFarm

      “If all the worker do not like the working conditions then all walk off the job and see if the owner doesn’t fix things in a hurry because he’s losing money and contracts every day the factory doesn’t run.”

      It’s called “striking”.

      And the “workers” have decided to “unite” in the same way that a professional athlete ( or “business owner” ) hires an “agent” to “negotiate” for him or herself.
      - The “workers” “work”.
      - Their skills are not “negotiation or business-deals”, but the provision of a service or material product.
      - They “unite” / band-together for the purpose of having someone who’s skills supplement their own.

      People who do the “negotiation” be they “owners” or workers” should have the LONG-RUN interest of the company at the top of their agenda.

      If they are only Short-Timers to run-up the Stock price so that “investors” will chose them in the Short Run, they ( and the “investors / Gamblers” ) get what they deserve.

      • coal miner

        IAfarm,

        Another oil rig explosion.

        • JLC

          Hi Coal Miner — For the edification of any lefties who may be reading this, it is not a BP rig, and it isn’t Bush’s fault. By the way, all 13 workers got off safely.

          • coal miner

            JHC,

            There may be an oil slick.

  • Marilyn Anglin

    I agree. We are now a minority of two. I believe an individual negotiates his own salary and benefits. Two workers performing the same job may or may not get paid the same.

    A CEO of a large company is a friend of mine. When the company acquired another company the purchased company had a union. This CEO negotiated with the union and then gave the non-union workers more than the union workers. When the union workers complained he told them to talk to their leaders. Just because you belong to a union does not translate that you will get the best from an employer. What it does translate into eventually is that you and your union will probably demand your employer into closing his business. Could this be greed?

  • William

    I am 60, retired, and have never belonged to a union. I never wanted to and worked for a non-union company for 32 years.
    I agree with your perspective. However, I do understand how the union concept came about due to the terrible working conditions that were prevalant in the 19th and early 20th centurys as our nation moved to the industrial age.
    What is your perspective on the conditions that workers had to endure in order to make a living? From what I have read every workplace was as bad as the next,so it did no good to quit and move on.

    • DaveH

      We were heavily propagandized, even 50 years ago, by the public school system. It’s really hard to find truth, but these 3 websites can shed a lot of light on what really goes on in the economy, past and present:
      Mises.org
      Reason.org
      Cato.org

  • marvin

    walmart love them or hate them, had a store in canada the union wanted to unionize it,worker voted to unionize, you see were i said HAD A STORE,not their no mo

    • IAFarm

      It’s called “the free market”.

      As I wrote above to Jason :

      “If all the worker do not like the working conditions then all walk off the job and see if the owner doesn’t fix things in a hurry because he’s losing money and contracts every day the factory doesn’t run.”

      It’s called “striking”.

      And the “workers” have decided to “unite” in the same way that a professional athlete ( or “business owner” ) hires an “agent” to “negotiate” for him or herself.
      - The “workers” “work”.
      - Their skills are not “negotiation or business-deals”, but the provision of a service or material product.
      - They “unite” / band-together for the purpose of having someone who’s skills supplement their own.

      People who do the “negotiation” be they “owners” or workers” should have the LONG-RUN interest of the company at the top of their agenda.

      If they are only Short-Timers to run-up the Stock price so that “investors” will chose them in the Short Run, they ( and the “investors / Gamblers” ) get what they deserve.

  • JaredG

    If you want to see a good example of what Unions will do to a place then check out Michigan … they have more unionized labor than any other state in the country and boy they’re just doing great right now! … actually they’re one of the most impoverished states in the nation with Detroit having the highest poverty rate of any city in the country… What do the top 10 cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common? Detroit, MI (1st on the poverty rate list)…has had Democrat mayors since 1961; Buffalo, NY (2nd on the poverty rate list)…has had Democrat mayors since 1954; Cincinnati, OH (3rd on the poverty rate list)…has had Democrat mayors since 1984; Cleveland, OH (4th on the poverty rate list)…has had Democrat mayors since 1989;
    Miami, FL (5th on the poverty rate list)…has only had Democrat mayors; St. Louis, MO (6th)…has had Democrat mayors since 1949; El Paso, TX (7th)…has only had Democrat mayors; Milwaukee, WI (8th)…has had Democrat mayors since 1908; Philadelphia, PA (9th)…has had Democrat mayors since 1952; Newark, NJ (10th)…has had Democrat mayors since 1907. Einstein once said, ‘The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.’

    • Verle Williams

      Interesting, isn’t it? WOW, why can’t “they” see the writing on the wall. I thought I was the “dense student”! Yes, it shows the “allegiance” doesn’t it?

      • JaredG

        Verle,
        It does shows their “allegiance”, as you so aptly put it, but it does not explain the rationale behind those continuing choices, and that is something that I might very well never understand. Einstein’s definition of insanity explains it better than I ever could!

        • coal miner

          JaredG,

          Einstein was a liberal.

  • James Hollingsworth

    Try this and then you will have your answer for you self. Start 2 identical projects. Project 1 you go through the local unions for your work force. Project 2 you hire a non union work force. If the pay is equal, the material equal witch project is going to finish one time and make the owner more money. As a retired contractor I have tried it both ways. Project 1 will run over budget over deadline and the quality will not be their. The reason being most union workers are lazy. They will milk the job as long as they can so they don’t have to go back to the Hall and wait their turn to be sent back out to the next project. There is no bond with the contractor so they don’t care anything about screwing him out of time, money or anything else as long as its goes in their pockets. They know the union will back them and send them back out when it’s their turn. Union workers know they can draw unemployment with a waver for locking for work because they belong to a union. Project 2 will make you more money. You will end up finishing on time or ahead of schedule and the quality of work will be better because the workers will try to make sure that you land another contract after this one and that you will keep them as employees.

  • garon

    I have been a Teamster and in other unions and felt they had their place in time and certain situations. I totally agree with a business owner should not have someone else telling him what he has to do or pay for.
    I have absolutely no idea how an auto union worker has gotten to an hourly wage all including to be $74. That is mind boggling and if I was one of the big three I would have told the union what it could do on a rolling donut at so called bargaining times. It is no wonder GM and the other big 3 will soon be nothing but history in the automotive business. It will be just one more business the unions have run out of the united states. $74 an hour to assemble a few parts is rediculous. $74 an hour to assemble the complete car would be better jusified.
    It is bull crap that a business owner must allow someone else to be a non productive partner in his own business.

  • patrick

    I used to work for the City of Minneapolis. I could never foigure out how the unions were able to get such a huge stronghold on the City and it’s employees? To work for the City, you must either be a union member or if not, you still pay your fair share dues. What is that? Then the lying union boses tell you we will negotiate your contract. Bullshit, they don’t negioiate anything… the City tells the union what they will offer… end od story. Then years of hardly even working, you get to retire, guess where your retirement comes from? The taxpayer funded Public Employees Retirement Assoc. funds. The unions collect your money for years calling it dues, they buy hookers, free worldwide travel, free fancy dinners, a lot of bozzing and party’s, free car’s, multi-retirement member funded high salaries, etc etc. The entire UNION thing is scam and it must be thrown in the garbage. We the people have had enough of the pay back to UNIONS by Obammy boy and his crew of crooked czaes!

  • Verle Williams

    I want you to know I couldn’t agree with you more. No, I don’t believe union members are crooks. But, I do believe in the rights of business owners, be they one man shops like I had or major international corporations. It’s pretty sick when “employees” become the “bosses” and tell the boss what he/she/they can and can’t do. I firmly believe that, today, the primary reason is more to give a guy / gal a job – continuing being a union boss – than it is to care a hoot about the life of the “union member”. It never did anything for me when I “HAD” to join the union to get my job! I’d NEVER do that again. It was just another tax without benefit to me. My brother was in union lead company. He would have given anything to have his job back, after the union boss talked all workers into going on strike. Even though the company said they’d close the doors if they did go on strike. The union boss said “no way, if they do, they’ll have to close for more than 3 years, because our contract says we’re automatically back in if the door opens in less than 3 years.” Well, 3 years and 3 weeks later, the company reopened – yes, as a non-union shop! My brother was one of the first in line begging for his job back. None of the union folks was hired back! My brother then had to stay at his job 120 miles away, requiring him to rent an apartment and commute home weekends to wife and 2 high school daughters, and all for 2/3 the pay he WAS getting! No, the union DID NOT subsidize him for his loss by being a GOOD union member, who did what the union boss said. I think the union mentality is too strong in the airline and rail business today anyway. For sure, I don’t think they should be “closed shop” turning over the AUTHORITY to the big mouthed union boss, while leaving the RESPONSIBILITIES to the well educated and qualified company leaders. Responsibility without authority has not and will NEVER work. Their are many good people in the unions, including many leaders — they’ve just gotten brain washed into believing that membership in the union will benefit THEM, which is totally misleading and, in my opinion, false hope. I would NEVER have gone into business, if I’d have HAD to be a union shop. Our employees HAD to produce quality product – engineering services – for our client, or we didn’t have any clients and NONE of us would have a job. I had to make sure the right people were hired and I paid them well for their services. Thankfully, we had lots of great clients, which made the job good for ALL of us. In my opinion, the need for unions has long passed by us. I fully support their need years ago, when they were fighting for proper working conditions to make it possible to even breathe and live. Today’s business leaders – within the USA – are much more humane than that. However, the areas to which our “unionized” jobs have gone do not practise the same principles. Why don’t the union bosses try going to those countries and unionize them??? Probably, their lives would be shortened to the “present” and they’d never be seen again. GO FOR IT!

    I feel the only reason our president and cronies are in favor of the union is that they want all the votes they can get and the union bosses tell their “followers” and “tea drinkers” how to vote; so they can get a group of voters in one fell sweep. How sweet it is – for them, but no one else.
    No, you are NOT a minority of one. There are MANY of us who feel the same way. However, unfortunately, even today, we are collectively in the minority. (Do we get minority status? NO WAY, because we are considered trouble makers.) Keep fueling the fire on their back sides and see the outcome. Painting a true picture will win in the end.

    WE WILL PREVAIL IN NOVEMBER!

  • patrick

    I agree with Hollingworth. I give you an example of the scam it is working at the City of Minneapolis with UNION protection. The garbage employees start work at 6:00am, they drive off to collect residents garbage with hydralic lift trucks, they may have a route with 20 blocks with houses on each side of the alley. They fill the truck with garbage then drive to downtown Minneaplois to dump the trash and it is burned, right next to the Twins ballpark. Then back to their route to finish up their routes. If they work fast and efficient, they can be done in 3-4 hours of work. Then they go home!!! So they work 3-4 a day but they get paid for 8 hours of work? What a scam all without the taxpayers knowledge and of course, this was created by the UNIONS! Better call you Minneapolis councilmemeber and complaint. Don’t forget who you will be dealing with…? Liberal democrats run the City of Minneapolis and the State of Minnesota!!!

  • Old Grey Fedora

    Right, I should ask the bosses permission to form a union. That’s rich!

    • David

      It’s better than him telling you to not let that door slap you in the a$$ on your way out because he is cashing out rather than deal with the inefficiencies of a union.

  • Robert Hauser

    I don’t know how much of his life this Robert ringer character has spent in any of the productive trades but he certainly looks like he has spent almost the entirety of it flying a desk…..his arguments against unionization are typical of the speciousness of the john birch Society my opinion of which and another 90 cents probably wouldn’t even cover a refill in some West Oakland greasy spoon. He seems to blithely overlook the fact that the sweat and food energy and the third or more of their lives that waged employees spend on the job just may be THEIR private property as well and that just perhaps they have some say in the matter….merely because you are the owner of a business does not confer Godhood upon you ….and this hallucinatory notion of his that no one has the right to join a union without the consent of his employer is sheer flatus: were that the case, no employer would grant any permission to any of his sweat and stoop labor to unionize and we would all be living like most of the illegal immigrants in this country….ten families physically compacted into a house built for one. Yes, I said ten and I meant ten: I have witnessed just that in the Sonoma Valley and the health department had to come out there and evict them all because they were clogging up the sewer mains so badly it caused a health hazard.

    The single bloodiest chapter in America’s far from glorious history—worse than the civil War in fact in terms of casualties—was the rise of trade unionism and the American Labor Movement—-was the single most blood soaked chapter. Without unions, every person who punched a time clock would be living in grinding squalor and dirt poverty and making just barely enough for sheer survival. This Ringer clown should be forced to work in the coal mines for some company like Massey Energy under the conditions that the Appalachian miners have to endure and then try to tell me that no one has the right to unionize without the consent of the employer….what a classic John Birch dip shit

    • coal miner

      Robert Hauser,

      Good point,Ringer is full of sh*t.I work in a union mines for 43 years,no fatal accidents.Work in a scab mines?No way. I think too much of my health and life.Have you heard? We had another oil rig explosion.

      • coal miner
      • http://yahoo Robert

        I don’t agree with Robert Ringer. I have 17 years, as a union underground coal miner, and 7 years as a union manufacturing engineer. I also have 2 years as a salaried underground maintenance engineer, and 2 more years, as a salaried manufacturing engineer. The nonunion (salaried) jobs took advantage of me, and I did not have a way to present grievances. According to you, I should have just quit, the nonunion jobs.

        A union is voice for workers; they were needed in 50s and 60s, and they are still needed today.

        • coal miner

          Robert,

          You are my kind of man,very well put. I am also a retired coal miner. Thank you.

          • Al Sieber

            I’m a miner too in Ariz., always worked non-union and we abide by the same state and federal laws as union. we have a state mine inspector, a federal mine inspector, and another fed. agency called MSHA, Mining Safety and Health Administration. now I’ve worked in some “shaky” mines before, but never again. my hat goes off to you guys, and all the miners world wide, it’s sort of a “Brotherhood” you guys know all about. you watch out for your partner, and everyone else underground, and hope you go home at the end of each shift.

    • David

      I guess it depends on your life experiences. I have worked as an engineer in a privately held large foundry for the last 20 years. At times we have been a supplier to GM so I was lucky enough to get to tour many of their automotive foundries. What an experience. No wonder the number one cost of a GM is labor/benefits. It takes 5 people to do what one does at our plant. Yes our guys are multi-trades…..neat concept.

      We pay very well and are located in the south so we have not had to deal with the problems that we see in the midwest. I just hope as the unions force these companies to close that the people do not move south. Stay up there in your screwed up states.

      • David

        Oh yea, maybe the coal miners will buy that Chevy POS Volt for $42k!!!

        Stupid is as stupid does….

        • Claire

          I want a Chevy Impala–maybe a Camaro? No, too old for a Camaro, I better stick with the Impala.

    • DaveH

      Yeah, Yeah, and I say that without Unions (and Big Government) we would have been a much more prosperous nation with nobody wanting for food and shelter.

      • coal miner

        DaveH,

        What about during Johnson time?You are full of it.

        • coal miner

          I meant times.

  • Linda

    I have never considered myself a libertarian, though I am conservative, regardless of how I might be classified. For the most part, I agree with the author of this article. To say that separating a man from his property destroys the man is not always 100% true. Historically, there have been countless people who have been stripped of all they possessed, and still come through intact in mind and spirit. A man’s life ultimately exists through His Creator, not through those things he possesses. Even so, taking away someone’s property means taking away what is representative of that person; it is still theft, at the very least. And, it can leave the victim at risk for all kinds of potential terrible consequences.

  • Live Responsibly

    Yes..we got “freedom” during the Bush/Republican Era.. What happened as a result? Exposure of capitalistic greed, millions of families lost jobs and their homes, and countless sad stories to tell. Who benefited? Not many of us.

    Remember folks, rules are only created when problems occur. Bush self-proclaim he is the “CEO of the country”. Hence, he has treated the country like a business. Many of you may have gotten what you wanted but it was only temporary. Like any CEO who brings down a business, Bush is ultimately responsible. The new administration is still trying to clean-up the mess left from the Republican rule. Who else will clean this mess up? Who still believes the same philosophy of the Republican will revive the Bush mentality?

    • coal miner

      live Responsibly,

      Right on.

      • David

        You two must live in Ca smoking that medicinal ganja.

        Why is obama’s little buddy soros divesting in the stock market?? Because as you say cleaning up…..the liberals are mopping up every last crumb before the very foundation our economy rests on crumbles as they “stimulate us”.

    • DaveH

      Bush was a Liberal. But you ain’t seen nothing yet. Obama will destroy our country, if left unchecked. But have no fear. No matter how bad it gets, the Liberals will still want more of the same.

  • Patriot

    Our congress and the leaders know we are bankrupt and cannot just simply raise taxes on everyone (that would seem insensitive during these tough economic times). So, they put in place programs that the masses seem to need, i.e. Healthcare which gives them the license to increase revenue’s by this form of tax (please do not tell me this is not a tax). This in turn is a payout to help these Union’s etc. to be able to pay for their ridiculous benefits for life. Since they knew the Healthcare would not pass for awhile or at all and needed the resources, here comes the stimulus bill which of course was just a Union and others payoff.

    I do not put anything past this leadership; it would not surprise me at all that they are planning another War, lets’ say Iran is in the making! Also, look at Cap n Trade (tax), just another way for the government to exploit us, taxing our emissions to save the planet! Give me a break!

    I DO have faith in the American people and it will be hard work to STOP the madness! We must start November 2nd, 61 days and counting. Do not lose your focus no matter what happens!

  • Brian

    I think Marilyn Anglin hits it square on the head and I fear this is yet another endless and ultimately futile debate. Yes, it is interesting,pertinent,intellectually challenging, and even amusing but, nevertheless,futile,as,I believe,demonstrated here today.

    Until our species evolves to the point that we can transcend our egocentric nature, stop murdering each other both literally and economically,learn the meaning of the word “enough” and thereby come to live and work together in a way that defies Lord Acton’s law (absolute power corrupts absolutely)and realize that “He who has the gold rules” is NOT the “Golden Rule”, we are destined to continue on this mindless merry go round until we cease to exist.

    Unfortunately we are more likely to develop anti-gravity, molecular food materialization, and light speed travel before this happens. Why does everyone want to be wealthy? Duh! So we can disassociate ourselves from each other to the maximum degree possible and fully embrace our egocentric nature! There’s an old Italian saying; “Everybody brings water to their own well” Change this and we fix the problem. I, for one, will not be holding my breath in anticipation of this event. This is a fabulous site and a great group! Hope you’ll pardon my cynical point of view. Have a really great day!

  • SammysDad

    Unions were once important for protection of the worker from unscrupulous owners. We must admit with all the rules and regulations nowadays, the main reason for unions is well past its prime. Unions run by now unscrupulous bosses, especially in the public arena, are destroying what made America great. The inflated pensions are so far slowly chipping away at many a company, and their products are so expensive because of it, overseas companies are reaping the benefits. What does “Made in USA” mean anymore? EXPENSIVE TO MAKE AND EXPENSIVE TO BUY!
    Union bosses are raping the workers finances by donating to Democrats 90+% of the time so the bosses can reap their own benefits with nothing trickling down to the workers.
    It is to my amazement that any worker, in his right mind and understanding the powers above him and their clandestine political agenda, would ever decide to be a union member.

    • coal miner

      SammsDad,

      Ask those miners working in a none union mines that got killed.We still need unions.Scab mines don’t follow regulations and the results can be deadly.

      • David

        That’s what OSHA is for. Maybe they should put Lisa Jackson over OSHA as well so EPA can regulate your industry into hell. Remember coal is very very bad. CO2 and all

        • coal miner

          David,

          You work in these non union mines.I’ll guaranteed you’ll be a whistling a different tune.

        • Al Sieber

          David, it’s methane gas in coal mines that’s dangerous not co2. and carbon monoxide is a killer, last week 2 miners died N. of Phoenix of that. MSHA regulates the mining industry.

          • coal miner

            Al sieber,

            Wrong Al, improper bolts and rods,they prevents cave ins.Co2 is a killer,it killed my next door neighbor,explosion,CO.What about that 600 violations in West Virginian,unions miners needed,scabs not,they are the problem.

  • Brian

    Oh my! SammysDad just ended the debate! Well said sir!

  • Corinne

    There was a time when unions served a purpose, but, today there is a myriad of laws and regulations to protect workers – safety, discrimination, minimum wage, etc. It is naive in the extreme to believe, as some of the comments have stated, that any group whose “demands” are not met will peaceably leave its employment and NOT make a shambles of the business it is leaving. I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Livingston.

    • coal miner

      Corinne,

      BullSh*t.Look at West Virginia.That was a scab mines.

      • tg7357

        Coal mining is one of the most dangerous jobs in this country and they should have unions: the Feds have never protected miners. I can agree with mining unions for the workers.

  • Terrie

    I would like to know why union thugs are taking over our country? Oh yeah, it’s because of the Marxist Muslim we have for a president. Unions are burdensome anymore as the economy can no longer support them. Will this tyranny ever end?

    • David

      Keep in mind folks, unions only account for 7% of industry. Now services employees…I do not know the %. But they are breaking the back of their states and I believe this will be fixed after 2012. Hopefully Nov. 2010

      • coal miner

        david,

        Bullsh*t!

  • tg7357

    I think the only unions that should be allowed are the unions for persons in unquestionably dangerous jobs like police, fire, coal miners, EMS, and the like. Life insurance companies keep statistics of the most dangerous jobs in America: it should be used as a guideline for setting up unions, and then the unions monitored for corruption by someone other than the Justice Department. Eric Holder can’t even spell ‘corruption’ much less recognize it.

  • Robert Lutz

    Let me get this right in my mind. It is ok for a person owning a business to treat his employees any way he desires or in other words as serfs if he desires. He can give them 10 cents an hour and let them live in poverty when they needs 20 dollars an hour just to survive. However he can have 20 mansions and go on expensive vacations and not have a care in the world. He can have a work place that is unsafe to work in and the employees don’t have any means of dealing injuries since they don’t make enough to see a doctor. WOW, everything is for the owner and everyone else be damned. I guess that is why we see Walmart, a company that makes BILLIONS and doesn’t give much back to the people who put them at the top, lets their employees go on food stamps and need to get assistance just to survive. WOW, this is just amazing. No wonder God has stated that it will be hard for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God. His greed will keep him out. Evidently not very many know that this country was founded with the idea that we should deal HONESTLY one with another. That was our Founding Fathers belief and also our Heavenly Fathers belief. Since this country was founded by our Heavenly Father through our Founding Fathers I would think that this country would have a better attitude toward one another. I worked for a union and didn’t agree with everything they did. In an ideal world we would not need any unions and everyone would have the basics to live without need and companies, who are the real problem with greed, would not charge more than what would be a reasonable margin of profit. This is the real problem with product cost and the fact the this is a MEMEMEMEMEMEME generation and they want it now. Hence, prices go up. Now no one is going to tell them what to charge but it should be done by their own willingness to be honest. I hope this country comes to its senses and changes the whole complection of this government. The Democrat/Communist people, and their union big shots, need to be replaced and a government “of the People, by the People and for the People reinstated in this country. God’s law to us was to have faith, hope and charity of which the greatest of these is charity. But without charity we have nothing.

    • Claire

      I am being blunt but I tell it like it is–GREED–everyone became greedy— all politicians, the government, corporations, Wall Street, unions, banks, insurance companies, doctors, lawyers, EVERYBODY!! They all “padded” their wallets while the middle class worker took less and less at times. I know some friends that work for a “big” business and the owner begrudges every damn cent he pays them. I have another friend–she makes $8.00 an hour, no raises, no insurance, no paid vacation, nothing, and her boss is a very rich man. I do not begrudge the wealthy, they either made it on their own or it was handed down to them-whatever. I am not asking for a “handout” for people nor for myself. I guess my point is that if it wasn’t for the middle-class worker or any American worker, the wealthy wouldn’t be rich. Some of the owners of businesses should realize that it was/is through their employees that they became rich. There are times when I think unions did do a favor for workers, and other times they too became greedy. Some Americans shot their wad too and overspent their salaries. GREED got America into this mess. I think the blame can be passed around.

      • Claire

        Another thing I meant to add—a person shouldn’t “bite” the hand that feeds them. And if they don’t like their job or who they work for–then quit. However, in today’s economy a person would be foolish to quit. Therefore it is a “grin and bear it” situation.
        Plus the fact that if I owned a business, I would be as good to my employees as I could be, after all, the American worker is the backbone of this country.
        And the government should stay out of it. This is one of the reasons why there so much outsourcing.

  • Earl, QUEENS, NY

    Hflashman writes “Unions are Good.” Obviously, he hasn’t had the kind of union jobs I’ve had, which were really ‘the short end of the stick’. One of those jobs was in Florida, where I was in the small minority by voting against unionization. And we were right!! Despite a few minor improvements by the union, we had better wages, benefits and work hours when the company was non-union. Likewise I got another raw deal in another union job 9 years ago in Connecticut. And while liberal unions complain about Walmart, I knew of a major supermarket in New Haven County CT, with the same lousy union we had, paying less than Walmart – minimum wage to be exact!! LOL!! When living in Connecticut, I rarely saw any non-union jobs listed that didn’t pay at least a dollar above minimum wage.

    This proves one thing – don’t let wishful thinking interfere with good judgment. Unionization can backfire on you – especially if there’s collusion and/or a sweetheart contract involved. And do you think all unions are good?? LOL!! You think it’s good to earn substandard wages, while the parasite union official give themselves multiple salaries??!! You think it’s good to see your forced union dues money going to political campaigns of the leftwing Democrap politicians who are destroying (both union and non-union) jobs??

    Finally, while I’m a 100% advocate of ‘Right-to-Work’ laws, I don’t know if I agree 100% with Robert Ringer about an employee having no right to a union. However, what’s certain is that employers and companies, IMO, don’t often enough exercise their right to hire permanent replacements for striking workers. I.e, with the high unemployment rate in Michigan, there should be no shortage of people able and willing to do the UAW jobs should there be a strike. Likewise with postal and other civil service workers whose jobs we’d all love to have!!!!!

  • Da Norseman

    The way I see unions these days, which has gotten worse and worse, have become more and more political. Union bosses are behaving more like lords and masters of a feudal system, getting rich off the backs of union workers. The worker is nothing more than that of serfs or peasants who work for their masters (union bosses) who pocket all union dues.

    Union bosses have a big monopoly on labor and pretty much have control of industry where their workers are represented. When a strike is called due to unfair wages, it’s the union bosses, not the laborers, who benefit once a strike is resolved. These lords and masters are looking for ways to milk more from the serfs and peasants.

    Many of the picket lines I’ve encountered, many of the laborers look dejected and want to go back to work because with the work stoppage, they are not making a dime and have to scrimp and save whatever they already have. Their bosses do not care how long a strike continues and laborers dare not cross the line. It’s time to get rid of these union bosses.

  • TAKE BACK AMERICA

    The unions MADE America. I probably have as many issues with them as the next guy but hate to think what America would have become without them.

    • David

      Exactly BUT now it is time for them to go. If the gov would quit bailing them out; they would be gone.

      Look at every big union state…..BROKE with their hand out.

      • TAKE BACK AMERICA

        That’s every state, Broke with their hand out. I don’t think that any business cares about the people it takes to make their profits. Even with unions there’s way too many getting ridiculous bonuses. All I see is that unions are losing their power and the amount of millionaires is skyrocketing. Don’t look at the unions as the problem, follow the money and the real problem becomes apparent.

        • Claire

          It was a tough call–bailing out GM. I have mixed emotions. If the government hadn’t bailed out GM, look at the thousands of people that would have lost their jobs. Jobs was the key factor–and still is.

  • Tom Wyckoff

    Hello! Mr. Ringer, Seems you have struck a nerve with some of the folks, judging from the reply responses. But, what the hay? What makes you think you are only one that is disgusted with Politics in America? I am including a copy of an open letter to Pres. Barack Hussein Obama. I am sending it to as many destinations as I can, In hopes that it will actually reach our fine President. I don’t know any other means of getting a message to him. I feel sure he is not interested in anything to be said my a commend voter. I do feel the need to inform, educate or in some way influence as many American Patriots as I can. Sir; My letter to PRESBO”

    Thursday, 2 September, 2010

    Open letter of response to President; Barack Hussein Obama
    Subject: Disappointment with direction

    Mr. Obama, I am convinced you could care less about the feelings of any patriotic American citizen, or legal, voter. This latest action by you is another example of your calloused lack of concern for the good will of the American people. Your decision to reject the sale of those collectable M1 firearms from So Korea is not a justifiable act of preserving security within or for The United States of America. By assuming this position you are successfully depriving many legal, law abiding American gun collectors of their rights.

    You are pandering to the extreme right wing facet of America that would cripple and remove all rights (not just gun rights) of every American. Apparently their efforts are to convert our free America to a Socialistic, dependant people with no back bone or even the will to resist your type of socialistic rule.

    Sir; I quote to you a statement that was reported to come from one of your staff members, it was not reveled who the comment was made by:

    Quote: “We are working closely with our Korean allies and the U.S. Army in exploring alternative options to dispose of these firearms.”

    This action is contrary to retention of American history, and the ability of the American people to maintain a collectable part of our military history. Dependant on the choice of action, by you and your staff will determine the amount of misuse of American funds and further costs to the tax payers. Does it mean; you are going to use American taxpayer monies to BUY these arms back from the So Korans; only to dispose/destroy them at even higher COST to the people by using more money to have them destroyed? Sir, would it make more practical since to allow these arms to be sold to Americans? We The People, are the ones that paid for those firearms in the first place, U.S. policies state we have the sole right of decision on their use and their sale. We should have some say in the out come of these arms and first choice of what happens to them. Should you or your staff chose to destroy them, you become a greater burden and expense to the American people. Furthermore, who are you that you are assuming the degree of authority to squander our money. YOU were elected to represent the people of America, in the best interest of the people, NOT to impose your personal policies. If you see this as a scolding from a small, unimportant citizen, take heed, as the scolding you will eventually receive from “We The People” shall be of much more an impact and consequences when it comes.

    Another staffer comment.

    Quote; “A State Department spokesman said the administration’s decision was based on concerns that the guns could fall into the wrong hands.”

    What is that? It sounds like an admission of incompetence, the inability to do a simple task for the good of our country. Is your staff so incapable of doing their jobs? Do they possess such little confidence that their choice in to do nothing?

    Sir, I could fill a book with highlights of incompetence and wrongs committed against the American people during your short tenure in office, but I’m sure you would never read it. You have allowed the greatest opportunity any black man could ever have dreamed of experiencing. That of being the first black president in America to truly turn this country around from the vile history of RACEISM and political incompetence that plagues our country for over two hundred years. You, could have been the best thing that ever happen for this country. Instead, you have fallen into the political cesspool of corruption and self centered politicians that have dragged this country to an all time low. Should you have proven to be a patriotic man, working for the improvement of our country, I would have followed you anywhere and given my life in support of your work for America. As it has turned out, you have made me one of your direst enemies. I will work to the fullest of my abilities to remove you and over through all your bad decisions you have used to bring harm the people and their freedoms. Count on me.
    Sincerely’

    Tom Wyckoff

    Ps, I leave you with a couple more quotes:

    Quote: “This country, with all its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.”
    – Abraham Lincoln

    Quote: “We cannot expect the Americans to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism.”
    – Norman Thomas, American Socialist Party, 1944

    (America,,, you are closer to Socialism, Communism than you think!)

  • Phil Clouser

    This is an oversimplification, as so many of our truths are, “Most, if not all, our economic problems are caused by three entities, and it matters not which order they are given: Big Business, Big Government, and Big Unions.” I don’t know if the unions were actually necessary when they were formed, but I do believe they hastened a process which should have come anyway. Now, they have become big business themselves, existing primarily for the union bosses. Business have been consolidating for years, to the point that a large conglomerate may own several different, related or unrelated companies. Government (that is, our Federal Government) has been overstepping the bounds of the Constitution even before the ink was dry on that document. It has gotten bigger and bigger, with no noticeable improvement in it’s functions. As with unions, government seems to exist more for the sake of the governing rather than for the governed.
    The cure? for starters cut back government so that it exists within the framework of the Constitution. Without all the protections, companies will have to start protecting their employees themselves, and unions will dissolve,as they are seen to be unnecessary.

  • Chris A.

    Make that a minority of at least three! A lucid and well thought out argument, which must, perforce, attract those “that have ears”.

    Well said, you have my non-union vote.

    Chris A.

  • http://gmail i41

    JRC, are you so damn ignorant you will not go to another area, where if it sucks, move on, if you have any marketable skills and a worth a damn, you can find work. The crap of it is not in my feild or I don’t like the time frame. Just another case of being a worthless barrel visioned dink. When I was in the Teamsters, I had to work another job to save up, to move out of the state, to a right to work state. The nation’s school systems and the colleges are to blame for the beleif. If you have a cat gut degree, you don’t do manual labor or get your hands dirty, and when you get a job, you are going for the big wages right now. We have to many single skilled idoits rhat only other skill is vaction time and sports watching.

  • brian2kathleen

    I’m really don’t know if I agree or not.

    Unions have the right to organize. Employees have the right to join unions, just like they have the right to join the local KitKat club or Elks Club, or political party. Employers have the right to hire or fire whomever they choose, at will. The federal government should stay the hell out of all of it.

    Does the issue have to be any more complicated than that?

  • alpha-lemming

    Well said…. the minority is growing… to a slightly larger minority.

    The resident Communists have chimed in, illustrating the 180 degree out of phase thinking that is progressive Bilical verse, to the blessings of “Union Amerika”. It’s true that most peoples reference to history extends only as far as they’ve been alive. I’m no different, so I haven’t seen the evils of robber-barons, sweat shops, and other examples of Capitalism run amok. I have an encyclopedia of empirical evidence to the harm done to America via unions. Generalizations, as a rule, are un-fair but when backed up by history and observation, stereo-types can be very telling. Originally formed for the purpose of “collective bargaining”, the individual (BY DEFINITION) is no more, and there is ONLY the collective. Ergo… the things that made America THE world super-power in less than 200 years, “opportunity, rugged individualism, merit, exceptionalism” MUST be cast aside in lieu of the collective lauding the praises of “mediocraty, sloth, subsidization of the under-achieving, non-merit based pay guarantees”. In addition to JaredGs’ fine list, I’ll offer my own personal observation. I went to school in a lovely little mid-west city…. Decatur Illinois. Back in the late 70s, the place was BEAUTIFUL!! High employment/home ownership, LOTS of VERY big businesses (Firestone, Borg-Warner, Catepillar, ADM, to name a few) and full of that “neighbor helping neighbor” mid-west charm. The unions ACTUALLY drove EVERY business (I think ADM might still be around??) out of town/state. The union mentality mandated they religiously go on strike every couple of years… AND (straight from the horses mouth… I swear) “(I) don’t even know what we’re striking for this year”!! The “cost” of doing business was IMPOSSIBLE. Now a days, the place is akin to THE WORST inner-city ghetto you’ve ever seen/read about… complete with weekly murders and drive-by shootings. AND let’s not forget the “Big-Dig” (John F#$%^& Kerrys’ “BARGAIN”). Remember… IT’S MASSACHUSETTS… if you think non-union could get within a 100 miles of that job…. You’re high!! Only went about 500% over budget and shoddy workmanship’s already killed one person.

    In defense of the author, the ORIGINAL transcript of the “Declaration of Independence” contained… “Life, liberty, and PROPERTY (Locke)”. Verbal calisthenics changed the phrase to “pursuit of happiness” with tacit understanding of property inclusion. Remember Hill-dawgs’ campaign speech suggesting the American people “get over these quaint notions of personal property”.

    John Q Progressive…. “Earnin’ is fo’ suckas!!! Jus’ gimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimme”!!

    • wavesofgrain

      alpha-lemming

      I agree!!! VERY GOOD analogy!!!!!

  • Palin12

    Let me tell you about my union experience. I was working a unionized hospital job. Our employee handbook clearly defined our annual pay increases. In 2002, I was skipped over for this automatic pay raise and my salary stayed the same for another year. I filed a grievance with the union, and the union boss lady told me she’d have it resolved by next Monday. I phoned her office on Monday and received a phone message “Hi, I answer my voice mail messages at 11:00 AM, 1:00 PM and 3:00 PM. Leave your message.” I left my message and it went unreturned. I called again the next day with the same result. Again and again every weekday for 3 more weeks I left my message and it went unreturned. I called again on Monday, the 4th week and this time got a phone message from the union boss lady “Hi, I’ll be on vacation and away from the office for the next 2 weeks.” Period. No one to handle her calls while on vacation. Finally, after 3 months, she made an appearance at our work site to ask for a $1 increase in union dues.
    I reminded her then of my grievance and then she told me “I’m sorry, there are certain affirmative action policies that come into play here, but I am not at liberty to discuss this further with you.” So you see, this union picked and chose who they would go to bat for, and who they wouldn’t. Shorty thereafter, I moved to a Right-To-Work state.

  • Dee

    Unions used to be good when working conditions were deplorable. Now they are just power hungry and greedy. They need to be put out of business especially SEIU and the teachers union.

    • TAKE BACK AMERICA

      Dee, I DO have issues with the SEIU, like if you work for L A County you’re a member. like it or not. The contributions are MANDITORY. I would still rather have it than NO representation. The teachers union on the other hand is finding Obama’s “Race to the top” a major deterrent in their prior ability to maintain LIFE LONG teachers. I think the Teachers Union is finding that capable teachers are their only hope of staying in business. If this proves true I’m all for them.

  • Judy McBain

    Robert Ringer for President! What a great explanation and discussion of what freedom is all about. Abolishment of private property rights is surely one of the ultimate goals of this administration.

    • TAKE BACK AMERICA

      Get real, Obama has taken NO more of your rights than Bush had put in place.

  • David

    Unions sucks. They force people to join the bully and threaten people who just want to work for their paycheck. The workers are responsible for how they are treated, if the conditions are not good they all could quit and the business would go under, its simple. Unions are thugs and mobsters.

    • TAKE BACK AMERICA

      David, you are truly misguided. The vast majority of workers can’t just quit. I can’t believe you said “The workers are responsible for how they are treated”. A man will put up and do almost anything to put food on the family table. Without unions You and most of the working class in America would be lucky to put any food on the table. Why does Mexican labor have so much power in America? Because they work for nothing and can’t be unionized. Want to join them? Get rid of the unions and you will. As an employer you my promise, I keep MY job by showing PROFIT.

  • http://gmail i41

    TBA,remove your pointed empty head out of your anal vent. Healthcare, banking regulations are just a couple of crap bills, forced on the public that only affect private business. Basatards given a pass, are pedophile muslims, unions, and all communist a$$ draggers are protected, and lets not forget all dip wad minorities like you, turd bird arzz. Bush was a soft progressive, but he definitely was a USA promoter not like, the marxist, muslim, moron, anti-USA phony we have in power, that idoits like you and all socialist democraps love and worship.

  • Normal Guy

    Robert Ringer is naive,

    As always the Libertarians fail to consider the role that coercion plays in the reality of how the real world works. Those with power will naturally exercise it to maximise their return, and to strengthen their position. The simplistic assumption that the free hand will make everything work for everyone is ignorant. Because the people that control the capital and means of production will naturally want to keep as much as possible, their ability force their position is much greater than those single individuals without the same resources. This is why regulations and the right to organize originally emerged.

    If the US wants to be competitive with labour from China and other emerging economies just wipe out the unions remove regulations and drop all trade barriers and pay the workers the equivalent of what is paid in those nations ($2,000 a year or so). Then you don’t require and trade barriers and we can enjoy the same standard of living as the workers in China, India etc.

    The reality of the Robber Barons in the 19th century is what happens when the free hand is let loose, extreme polarization of rich and poor, the people that control the capital get continually stronger, those that don’t get weaker. Libertarianism works for the rich but it does so by driving those without capital down and exploiting their weakness to maximise returns! A really terrible idea, not what makes a nation great, the end game is revolution as the extreme poor vastly outnumber those with the economic power.

    • Denniso

      Smart comment…and either the rightwing doesn’t understand history and human nature or they do get it but remain comitted to their personal bottom line and to hell w/ anyone else or the health of the country. Kind of sick…

    • Viktor Leben

      Actually Normal it turns everyone into a capitalist. It eliminates living from paycheck to paycheck. It puts a restraint on unplanned reproduction !
      In other words, it all comes down to an economic equation. If you can’t afford a job, go find one you can afford.

      If you can’t afford having 12 children, don’t have 12 children ! Save, invest and wait until you can afford a family, or anything else you want to achieve !

      What an interesting notion … live within your means and be as much a capitalist as your boss is. Be stingy with your nickel and dimes when your poor, and when your rich too ! (if you want) ….

  • TAKE BACK AMERICA

    i41, thought I’d take a moment and re post your post without the slurs to actually show anyone who cares the substance of it.
    ” Healthcare, banking regulations are just a couple of bills, forced on the public that only affect private business. Bush was a soft progressive, but he definitely was a USA promoter.”
    The first sentence is idiotic……so was the second. Congratulations i41, your still an ignorant idiot.

  • eddie47d

    Robert Ringer is the one poking working men and women in the eye. Not the Unions and Mr Ringer is a top Union buster.Unions have there lazy workers and that needs to be corrected (about 30 years ago).They do need a wake up call but not as much as corporate CEO’s and the shame they have brought to America. I won’t defend bad union members anymore than I will defend a corrupt CEO. Mr Ringer is just another body hired by Mr Livingston to make union workers look bad while winking at the corporate corruption in America. He says “How can you separate a persons life from his property” It happens all the time. If you can’t afford a home the bank comes in and takes it away. Can’t afford a car the repo man comes. I don’t like banks that much but they do have a right to take property back if the owner can’t pay his bill. Corporations do allot of things that aren’t “good for society”.(pollution as an example). I think “America could accelerate towards total collaspe” if corporations keep stealing from their own companies and the government. Ringer talked about voting and his “tyranny of the majority”,that was laughable. When you vote for anyone or issue usually the majority wins. If someone doesn’t show up to vote that would be his fault. I think he is the one who would manipulate an election.

    • alpha-lemming

      A couple of corrections. CEO outrageous pay can be directly linked to the onerous tax burden that companies have been under for years. When the taxes go up, industrys’ response is NOT to lie there and take it but to get “leaner and meaner”. Smaller work-force (which makes government responsible for job loss… also true for minimum wage laws), more with less, overtime etc.. Fewer slices of the pie???… the slices are BIGGER.

      If you’re still paying on your home or car and it gets forecloosed/repoed it’s because YOU DON’T OWN IT… yet.

      Finally, a technicality… I know, BUT think about a COMPANY stealing from the GOVERNMENT. The Government has NOTHING (no product, no service requiring a PROFIT)… except what it STEALS from someone else FIRST. Yes I know… companies stole on the TARPs and bailouts (~trillion dollars) but I repeat… Government has/produces NOTHING… That’s MY/OUR trillion dollars!!

      • Claire

        Numerous contractors “working” in Iraq has fleeced the US. It seems to me that most of these companies that “work” for the government in these type of situations have robbed the US. This has been happening for decades.

    • Claire

      eddie–they are all “manipulators.”

    • Viktor Leben

      If a corporation causes damages to you it can be brought before a court of law. You have a legal right to sue and attempt to recover $$ for damages to your property and person.

      If your boss severs one of your limbs while you are at work, due to gross neglect, you have a right to sue. If you signed a contract knowing the job was hazardous .. good luck – you better get a real good lawyer ! HA HA HA !!

      JUST SOME EXAMPLES. It all comes down to financial freedom. Go the libertarian way and only work a job you can afford. Don’t live beyond your means – borrow $$ only to invest…

  • http://www.TomBlairEA.com Thomas Avery Blair EA

    This article said it better than I ever could! Violate a person’s right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and you have also violated his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness through his own efforts, resulting property, and the enjoyment of those property rights.

    Most people I know believe in “democracy” and have no idea how bad an idea real democracy is.

    I read something a while back that made the case against true democracy:

    Seven individuals organized themselves into a democracy under a large tree and a beautiful fish-filled lake. Of those seven, six were carnavores (flesh eaters) and the seventh was an herbavore (plant eater), let’s just call the flesh eaters “wolves” and the plant eater “a sheep.”

    Once all seven had dealt with all measures before them in that very morning, the next order of business was to answer the fundamental question of “What’s for lunch?” If you were the only sheep at this meeting and a “democratic vote of the majority” was taken, what do you think would probably “for lunch”? Would it be more likely than not fish from the lake or lamb chops?

    And I would also point out that the pledge of allegence to the United States of America never mentions “democracy” but instead says: “I pledge allegence to the flag of the United States of America and to the REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS…”

    Most Americans have been so “dumbed down” that they actually do believe that the word “democracy” and “republic” are synonomus when in fact they definitely are not! Actually, the founding fathers of our nation detested the very concept of democracy (majority rule). They designed instead a form of government whereby the minority would be essentially protected from the overwhelming will of the “blind-to-individuality” majority!

    I close with this question. Remember the story about the six wolves and the sheep that chose to operate as a democracy…given a choice in that situation, would YOU have chosen to be the sheep when the question arose “What’s for lunch?”

    At least food for thought, is it not?

    Respectfully submitted,

    Thomas Avery Blair, Enrolled Agent

  • chuck b

    141
    you hit’em where it hurts.they don’t understand. manufacturing can’t pay union demands and compete with the world market. the unions protect complacency of workers on the job and ineffiency in the workers themselves. general motors is a prime example, barry bought a company and gave it to the same people who destroyed it the first place and it’s just a matter of time and they will have to close the doors.
    socialism and unionism are basically the same thing and neither will work in the end.

    • TAKE BACK AMERICA

      We will NEVER be able to compete with the world market. Trying to compete is futile. Instead of complaining, simply BUY American. Get your butts out of Wallmart, into Whole Foods and back in American cars. Simply BUY AMERICAN. Not buying American in this recession is a true sign of ignorance. This site’s Love it or leave it premise is nothing less than lip service. I guess seeing Obama fail is more important than helping America succeed. Next time you buy ANYTHING look at the label.

      • Claire

        Buy American?? You bet your bippy I do and I always will. And yes, I will buy another Chevy. I support anything made in America, even if I have to drive to numerous stores to do it.

        • Denniso

          The rightwing IS more interested in seeing Obama fail than helping America succeed…They are doing all they can to harm the fragile economy and fighting tooth and nail to keep it anemic as a ploy to take back power, which is all they care about,other than their personal fortunes.

      • Viktor Leben

        Take Back,

        Life before WalMart, in my litte town outside Hartford, was an economic disaster. I remember buying a color TV for 60 bucks when they opened ! That was about a decade ago. A TV of the same size was selling for $100 or more from other smaller retailers. I couldn’t afford “buying American” because I wasn’t capable of having a high salary (I’m a dumbass !). I’m dumber than ever right now. WalMart has saved me thousands of dollars ! My wife works, I’m unemployed – and Wal Mart (and Sam’s Club and ALDI’s) is keeping me alive ! Thank God for the Chinese and The Germans !!! Stop & Shop is for rich folk, I can’t afford their unionized prices ….

        The TV was Chinese made and it lasted until last year .. it still was working. The FCC changed to ATSC standard and so I recycled it at Best Buy.

        NOW I CAN’T AFFORD A NEW CAR !!! BECAUSE THOSE CONGRESSMAN BAILED OUT THE US AUTOMAKERS !!! I would be driving a nice Chinese made car for less than half the price of an American car. Now my old car ( a 1994 Geo Prizm) has to last a few more years until they (the FEDERAL GOV’T) allow GM to go under !

        I would love to buy a TATA Nano made in India, especially when it cost under $3,000 !!!! Or one of those cars from China ! I CAN’T AFFORD AMERICAN RIGHT NOW ! AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS ARE FOR THE RICH ! AND I AIN’T RICH !!!

        • Viktor Leben

          I also bought a 27 inch TV for $150 bucks like 8 years ago at Wal Mart ! It was right before the Super Bowl, and was a leftover from Black Friday !!! I recycled it also at Best Buy, I watch all my TV shows on HULU and don’t have cable anymore, just a DSL connection with Phone. I make all my long distance phone calls with Magic Jack !!!

          Buy Foreign, it’s cheaper $$ and better quality or it’s just so cheap moneywise you can throw it out and buy new again. American made stuff will cost you much more…

          • Jimmy G

            I have a 1954 Coldspot Kenmore freezer still working in my garage. Made in USA, I wonder what the cost per year would be. It did spend the first 47 years in the house, but still going strong after 9 years of Texas summers.

        • Claire

          Viktor–You do have a point. However, I will still shop for American products. When a person really stops and thinks about it, the cause is called “greed.”

  • c

    Mr. Ringer: You might be the minority, but I agree with you. Moral and economic. Thank you for the article. Good Day!

  • Void1972

    Dear President Obama:

    You are the tenth President under whom I have lived and unlike
    any of the others, you truly scare me.

    You scare me because after months of exposure, I know nothing about you.

    You scare me because I do not know how you paid for your expensive
    Ivy League education and your upscale lifestyle and housing with no
    visible signs of support.

    You scare me because you did not spend the formative years of youth
    growing up in America and culturally you are not an American.

    You scare me because you have never run a company or met a payroll.

    You scare me because you have never had military experience, thus
    don’t understand it at its core.

    You scare me because you lack humility and ‘class’, always blaming others.

    You scare me because for over half your life you have aligned
    yourself with radical extremists who hate America and you refuse to
    publicly denounce these radicals who wish to see America fail..

    You scare me because you are a cheerleader for the ‘blame America ‘
    crowd and deliver this message abroad.

    You scare me because you want to change America to a European style
    country where the government sector dominates instead of the private sector.

    You scare me because you want to replace our health care system
    with a government controlled one.

    You scare me because you prefer ‘wind mills’ to responsibly
    capitalizing on our own vast oil, coal and shale reserves.

    You scare me because you want to kill the American capitalist goose
    that lays the golden egg which provides the highest standard of
    living in the world.

    You scare me because you have begun to use ‘extortion’ tactics
    against certain banks and corporations.

    You scare me because your own political party shrinks from
    challenging you on your wild and irresponsible spending proposals.

    You scare me because you will not openly listen to or even consider
    opposing points of view from intelligent people.

    You scare me because you falsely believe that you are both
    omnipotent and omniscient.

    You scare me because the media gives you a free pass on everything
    you do.

    You scare me because you demonize and want to silence the
    Limbaugh’s, Hannity’s, O’Reillys and Becks who offer opposing,
    conservative points of view.

    You scare me because you prefer controlling over governing.

    Finally, you scare me because if you serve a second term I will
    probably not feel safe in writing a similar letter in 8 years.

    • Denniso

      You want Obama to listen to ‘intelligent’ people like Limbaugh,Hannity,O’Reilly? Surely you joke! Those guys are about as
      clueless and manipulative as one can be. Limbaugh is one of the worst of the cast of rightwing zealots who are playing people like you for fools.

    • Denniso

      And you scare me because you actually think that Limbaugh, Hannity and O’Reilly are intelligent…amazing!

  • Neil

    Robert ! I was born and raised in Flint, Mi. until I moved out when I was 32. The thing I could not understand is why GM
    never kicked their asses out of the building on Chevrolet Ave. they weren’t even unionized at the time. With the statements being made by you about property ownership was my basis of my though and my family mostly being in business, we at one time protected our property with guns no other thoughts about it, it’s what you do.
    I’ve been a member of the National Right to Work Committee for 25 yrs. and never thought they went far enough. If you don’t like your job leave I’ve done it many times. There is always someone who needs to be baby sat and needs that support, but don’t blame your employer the one that pays you as you try tear him down. The one that gives you opportunity to better yourself if he survives.

    Now we have GOVERNMENT MOTORS and they still don’t get it.

    • Denniso

      You owe decent wages,worker safety laws,child labor laws,the 5 day work week and more to union workers and labor organizers. Would you prefer sweat shops,$5/day wages,and thousands more workers maimed and killed on the job? Your a rightwinger, so maybe you would…

  • TAKE BACK AMERICA

    For 75 years the rule has been that in order for any class of workers (e.g., pilots) employed by an airline or railroad to unionize, a majority of all employees in that class have to vote for unionization. But the proposed new rule would require only that a majority of employees who actually vote on the question of unionization would be needed to unionize. If you don’t approve all you need to do is VOTE, what could be more American?

  • http://brentalberts@hotmail.com Brent Alberts

    Sounds to me you would like Slavery back.That means NO Safe work conditions, low wages, NO insurance,etc. So all workers could earn $3.50 an hour, live in company housing ,and when you get sick that’s too bad.No benefits.

  • chuck b

    if you people want all the goodies in life, then i suggest you create your own employment. start any business you like, then you can lean on the shovel all you want and complain about wages, healthcare, vacations and retirement. when it comes time to write your check, don’t complain if you haven’t produced enough money to afford the welfare you demand. it’s easy, try it sometime.

  • Stephen Russell

    NO 2 Unions & do to so by Choice: I Join or NOT
    Either way Im still employed.
    Offer Incentives for both sides to win woo workers Or Lose.
    Your call.
    See Union damage to CA State

  • LTCMSCUSAR1

    1/2lashman, Not much has changed with the idle rehtoric of likes of you.I have worked for a few industries inundated by “organizers”of unions. The Iron workers and the boilermakers. They in fact are nothing but thugs who have no cumpunctions in the personal threats and property damage they purpetrate. They fired high powered rifles at the Plant transformers (nearly put the entire city in the dark); they set railroad boxcars on fire to block the plant. They smashed windshealds only to get in. We were succesful in repelling them. It is sad to see they have changed little over the years. Same mentality as yours.

  • http://libertymind.wordpress.com Patriot1776

    Anyways back to the article at hand. I whole-heartedly agree with the author of this post. So you can make it a minority of two! Private property is the cornerstone to any free society. When private property rights are not protected the door is opened to trample on all other individual liberties. If your life and labor are not yours and yours alone then what is? And where do you draw the line? This is why in a free society we should not be taxed without our consent. And why a fiat central banking system is the biggest threat to liberty we face.

  • Marc

    Some are not even ashamed to say:we are right because we can impose our view.They must learn to say:we ask for more because of our skills and other qualities we have to offer.But this can be judged only on an individual basis.Please excuse my english,i have seen the collapse of socialism in the East.

    • Denniso

      Impose one’s will? How about the tea party showing off their firepower
      at their rallies? IS that civil discussion?

      • Marc

        Changing the subject is a propaganda tool of any “good” synicalist.Don’t tell me what to do,I am in the habit of deciding for myself.I will not give up just one inch of my freedom.I fought for it under stinking communists with the help from President Reagan,god bless him!And I am ready for a fight.

  • Andy R

    Great argument to do something about illegal immigrants

  • Doug

    Unions are a collective voice, rather you pay someone to represent you or not (!), should be your option…Not Obama’s of the world. Look at Detroit and how the AFL-CIO destroyed both the auto industry and the state of Michigan. You see an employer is like an employee in that he can move to China or Korea to reduce his labor cost…i.e. manufacturing cost…this is his option. So if you are a member of a union…then you have a responsibility to yourself and other in holding the Union’s accountable…Union Dues should not be used for just anything some fool at the top decides. Remember Jimmy Hoffa going to prison for miss use of union dues? So don’t be fooled into thinking Unions are looking out for the so-called average person’s best interest…it’s Big Business at it’s worse. A wolf in sheeps clothing! The bottom-line is make it an individual right to become a member or not…if you become a member Hold the Union Accountable…otherwise you give up your voting rights as an American..say you want to vote Republican but all your Union dues are being used to support Democrates…you are betting against yourself from jump start!!

  • Marc

    People YOU MUST STAND UP FOR YOUR FREEDOM words are not enough!As I said I have seen the communist b….s and the gulag in the East.Belive me America is still our only hope for a free world.Just look at what is going on in Europe right now, all these socialists going down the drain.Not any one country is capable to finance the wellfare state on the long run.Breeding parasites on a grand scale.

    • Denniso

      Sure, why don’t you stand up and walk out of the country…you could move to Iran,whose gov’t policies are more to the liking of rightwing wackos. They’ve already got th police state you seem to desire. Good riddance!

      • Marc

        I took the liberty of giving my opinion and alerting people with some socialist
        experience….from 10 000 miles away.You dont’ have to “invite” me to “get out” of the country.Denniso with “pre union” references is a dogmatic fool.Try not to harm others as you are showing your teeth already.Menacing will come next.Say good riddance for me, you know to whom.

        • Denniso

          I’m glad to discuss and hear from people abroad…

          • Marc

            I will send you the little red book with greetings from Castro, Pol Pot,Mengistou
            Lenin,Trotsky,Jdanov,Derzinsky, Beria and kiss Chavez you know where.

      • (WIA) Wild Indian in Action

        An Yes Dumbnissio,
        You can take your Pro-Union butt, your anti-Corporate America Capitalism/Self Enterprise and Free Market ideology and move to Venezuela or Cuba. Better yet move to Greece and show us how your way does it.

        • coal miner

          Marc,

          You forgot to mention Ronald turn coat Reagan;he sold out to Japan and China.In 15 year China will over take United States,thanks again to Turn Coat Reagan and the Scab Bush and scab son team.

  • Bob D.

    This article is a joke. According to this article. we are headed to be a communist Country. So no one can organize a Union unless the Company agrees. I can’t believe someone would even write such a thing.

    He also complains about how they count the votes. Just one questions, when we vote on Local, State and General elections in this Country, the only votes that count are those people who go vote, but in a Union election, you also want to count the votes for those people who don’t vote and by the way, they would be counted as a NO vote. Again, this article is a joke.

    • Denniso

      It’s people doing the bidding of corporations so corporations can make more money by cutting wages and benefits of workers. It’s corporate propoganda,pure and simple. Rightwingers should read some history of labor in our country and what it was like pre union.

      • coal miner

        Denniso,

        Right on!

        1915 World famous labor leader Joe Hill was arrested in Salt Lake City. He was convicted on trumped up murder charges and was executed 21 months later despite worldwide protests and two attempts of President Woodrow Wilson to intervene. In a letter to Bill Haywood shortly before his death, Joe Hill penned the famous words, “Don’t mourn – organize!” On this same day, factory guards at Roosevelt, New Jersey shot 20 rioting strikers.

        • Denniso

          There’s the good and famous folk song about Joe Hill…’I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,alive as you or me;
          Says I, but Joe you’re 10 yrs dead, I never died said he, I never died said he.’
          ‘The copper bosses shot you Joe, they killed you Joe says I;
          Takes more than guns to kill a man, I never died said he, I never died said he.’

          • coal miner

            Denniso,

            Very good.

  • Cindy K

    Let’s talk about democracy. Employers have the unfettered democratic right to join the chamber of commerce so they can have a larger voice when advocating for legislation, use of tax payer dollars, and so much more in order to provide for conditions and the type of community which helps grow and foster their businesses. Employees should have the exact same right. They should be able to form and join unions to advocate for safer working conditions, wages and benefits. All of you who have commented benefit every day from laws which were fought for by unions and their hard working members. Do any of you take issue with child labor laws? Brought to you by the unions. Let’s remember too that the middle class drives the economic engine of this country. With out living wages, I am not sure who is going to buy the wonderful products and services sold by employers (oh and made by workers).

    • TAKE BACK AMERICA

      Cindy, stop spreading your left wing, socialist, Obama loving sense on this board. We don’t want facts, we don’t want reason, we want ignorant ranting. Who is this person, bring back the idiots, their more fun.

      • coal miner

        Take American,

        Thats crap.How do you explain Ronald Turn Coat Reagon and George Scab Bush?they sold out to Japan and China.It was the unions that overthrow Poland’s communist government.Remmber that?George Scab bushSR said it wasn’t Deng’s fault when they crush the student’s demostrations.Without unions we wouldn’t have the highest standards of living in world history.We buy the products,because of high wages. You couldn’t do that in a scab society,try the thirties.Move to Singapore they love scabs.Stop calling people socialist traitors,you better take look at your Icon,Ronald Turn Coat Reagon.He was a real piece of work

        • TAKE BACK AMERICA

          Read the post again, you seemed to have missed the humor.

          • Denniso

            Pretty good…

          • coal miner

            Take back,

            Sorry about that.

      • Cindy K

        I know the fear mongering, constitution waving ideologues are much more fun to pick on! Sorry for entering sanity and reason into the conversation. I can’t resist bringing another fact into the conversation though. Rufus says that unions have done nothing for workers. Not so, many Postal Workers qualified for welfare while working FULL TIME at the PO before 1970. After the full recognition of unions to bargain collectively on their behalf, Postal jobs became solid middle class jobs with benefits. Even better, Postal jobs provide thousands of decent jobs to our veterans who serve our country so well. Anyone have problems with veterans earning a living wage? Anyone have problems with getting people off welfare?

        • Denniso

          Good comment…the Repubs who are opposed to unions actually think,or pretend to think,that if we have a totally free labor market then workers will be ‘free’ to go where the good jobs are and all employers
          will then be forced, through competition for workers,to provide good pay and conditions. The problem w/ their theory is that it ignores history and certainly wouldn’t work for lower skilled workers,who would then be forced to work for slave wages.
          The Repubs should just be honest and admit that they want to return to the days of child labor and wage slavery…at least I could respect their honesty instead of gagging on their hypocrisy.

  • March

    The point is about employees voting for union membership. If any members don’t or can’t vote it is presumed they are against the union. If somebody abstains how can either side claim representation? under the new proposal actual ballots will be counted!

    • TAKE BACK AMERICA

      March, thats not true, not voting does not mean you are for or against the union. It means you (apparently) have no opinion. If you are not, for any reason, able to vote there is ALWAYS an absentee provision.

  • Claire

    Check out the Mott company–you know the makers of applesauce, juice. Look what they are doing. Check it out.

    • coal miner
      • coal miner

        Don’t buy their products.

        • Claire

          Coal miner–Not to worry–I quit buying their products a couple of weeks ago. Dang! I love the cinnamon applesauce they make!! I read an article about them and I was surprised–but with the way the world is, I should have known better.

          • coal miner

            Clarire,

            Thank you.

  • Catherine West

    I couldn’t agree with you more. One of the problems with uninformed Americans is the loss of understanding of Private Property. That is why there are few and far between objections to the: ‘For the Greater Good’ searches and seizures of everything from toenail cutters to too lg. btls. of anything used in grooming, to scan for person; fingerprinting, criminal record reviews for Americans who have never committed a crime in their life; scanning for private backpack effects of grammar through college students. That has been happening for the last 8 years or more! Result, young people grow-up with the right of privacy broken before they have any idea what it means.

    Interestingly, for parents who are legally liable for the acts of children—all of a sudden anyone involved in something— becomes an instant individual!! In fact, with the socialism of Unions plus Obama Admin. with Czars and other brainless-wits; the only time an individual is recognized as ‘one’ is leaving the social group, or breaking a law – defined by government or the Union.

    Simple majorities without accountability for morality, honor, or religion are being ‘run out’ by the fool’s world called ‘Democracy’ which sounds beautiful! All you need is the largest number, of what-ever requires a decision! Nothing else! Union membership is vote only by 51% of what-ever; because there is no accountability of union to the risk, the management, the success, the selling, the production, or any other responsibility for the ‘target union to be’ except the majority of one. In voting, candidates have no accountability for membership; in any political party, for any belief republic, democracy, independent, green, yellow, pink with purple poke-a-dots on governing,or on the morality and religion of governing.

    Our Nation has the opportunity, to guarantee perpetual irresponsibility from its candidates; because with the ‘Tyranny of the Majority’, that’One+’ is the total requirement unions or elections!!

    Very Sick idea; that “Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. (James Madison; Federalist #`10; 1787)”.

  • Viktor Leben

    I think the Tortoise is right. If the owner of a company does not want a Union then a Union should not be forced upon that owner’s property. In the case of a corporation, it probably would depend on the stockholders ? Or the Board of Directors ? I would lean to a vote among the stockholders. Another good reason for employee stockholder plans. The employee probably would not want a Union if he/she owned stock.

    • Viktor Leben

      I should have said “owner of a business” instead of “owner of a company” in my second sentence of the last reply ….

      A owner of a business property rights are more important than any “workers union” …

      Save your money, then quit your job ! Go find another job ! You are better off in the long run. I learned this by experience. The Union dudes do what is good for the Union dues $$$ !!! Save your money, if you don’t like your job just say “Adios” to your old boss (don’t burn bridges though ! give him/her 2 weeks notice ! Be polite ! You may want to come back some day !). Just tell your old boss you got a better offer $$ in salary … He/She will understand.

    • coal miner

      ViKtor,

      That is crap.If that is true,than owners should be responsible for the worker’s safety and well being.Remember the mining acccidents.I worked in a unionised mines for 43 years,not one fatal accident,can you say the same thing about scab mines.

  • Rufus John Wilson

    Unions are not good for anyone, wanting to better their self.I know what they have not done for American workers. The poor people pay union dues with higher product cost. Thanks for reading this

    • coal miner

      Rufus,

      That is bull.How come I am retired with good health insurance and a good retirment pension? Go peddle your crap somewhere else.

  • Polski

    The unions were formed because the corporate entities abused the workers in every way. And the corporate entities are doing that just as much today as when little children were used as chimney sweeps. If it weren’t for unions, people would be working 24/7 for a penny a day, with no benefits at all while the CEOs would be making $16 billion a year instead of $16 million a year for doing nothing worthwhile for the company while the penny a day people would be doing all the necessary useful valuable work.

  • Carol

    When unions were first formed I’m sure they did it with good in mind, but over the years they have become corrupt. Some make deals with the very companies they are supposed to be against. Some strikes have shut companies down–even whole towns.

    The same with our representatives in DC. They are supposed to represent the people, not themselves. It has become a club of how to line their own pockets with money. They get a raise each year no matter how badly they perform. I am so SICK of hearing about what they are going to do for the “middle class”. I guess they figure the middle class is who will be voting in the next election.

    I have come to LOATHE Dems. They SAY they aren’t for BIG BUSINESS when they ARE FOR BIG BUSINESS. They turned our small downtown into a community for the wealthy, where they can party til the cows come home–all at our expense. Our city puts on parties several times a year. They put in a lake at our expense–which is in need of constant upkeep. Highrise condo apartments available for a MILLION dollars each? (One is sitting there unfinished, which adds to the ugliness.) One of those responsible for the ugliness of our small downtown being the way it is–our former mayor who helped push thru the healthcare bill, among other things, and his city council who has given us among other things taxes on food. They, along with every other city in most states, are crying for more money, higher taxes–all in the name of education and safety.

    If ALL of the money they taxed us went for education and safety, all of those people would be millionaires. And if those in education and safety were NOT paying dues to UNIONS they would have more income.

    • Denniso

      You loathe Dems? Well, we’re even then since I loathe Repubs…the ones who are only concerned for themselves and their party’s regaining power at any cost. Currently the cost is trying to wreck the economy so they can blame Obama and gain seats in Nov.

      • coal miner

        Denniso,

        Don’t pay any attention to them.They are blowing off hot air,try to take their pensions and benefits away from any one of them and you will have a fight on your hands.They are too stupid to realize it was the Unions that put pressure on our elected officials to get laws passed to get better wages and a nice safe healthy enviroments in factories for our workers.

        • Denniso

          Coal…you’re right, and if we lose the gains that unions achieved for most working people, the rightwingers would be the first to cry
          for the good old days…5 day work weeks,end to child labor,decent wages,safer workplaces,health insurance,pensions,justice in hiring/firing…

  • Lana

    “Take Back America” I will buy american -made goods, I just have no clue , where can I find one. In 2009 my friends celebrated their American Citizenship, and threw a party to drink for their first American passports. So, I decided to make them a present for an occasion and buy something made in America. I drove to a Shopping mall, and after 3 hours of running around I gave up and bought a book”History of Virginia’ printed in China. There is only one place I know, that sells American – made and that is Farmer’s Market .But FDA is close to kill it too. By the way. My Chevy-minivan cost $20,000.00 and in 4 years was taken by dealer for $4,000.00 My Toyota minivan cost $25,000.00,it is 6 y.o. has 110,000miles and I have an offers to sell it for $8,000.00 ( not like I am going to.) Guys are right. Americans are not rich enough to by American-made any more. And yes, Unionized work means expensive and not a good quality products. But also is truth, that Chinese are cheap and bad quality. So, where are an affordable and good quality products? With Every passing day America seems to me more and more similar to my home country, Soviet Union. I wonder , if 1991 will come and how soon.

  • Eileen

    There is so much more to unions and unionism than wages and strikes! Because of labor unions, workers have safer work environments, decent working hours, and benefits for themselves and their families. There are good unions and not so good unions. There are good (and great) employers and not so good employers. Generalizing about all unions and union organization being bad is so wrong. I wish anti-union people would quit all the negative talk about unions when they have, over the years, given American workers so much more than they have (as some people feel) taken away.

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