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The Patriot Movement

March 11, 2013 by  

The Patriot Movement
PHOTOS.COM

There is and has been for some time a propaganda war designed to marginalize and demonize the liberty movement and those who advocate for a government that is limited by the Constitution and rule of law. Last week, that war hit high gear, as it became apparent that rational discussion about the role of government is no longer possible — in Washington or elsewhere.

The hate group I call the Southern Preposterous Lie Center (read about it here, here and here) fired its salvo with its spring non-Intelligence Report, “The Year in Hate & Extremism.” The magazine is yet another regurgitation of the SPLC’s regular quarterly vomit used to divest widows, simpletons and progressives of their wealth so Morris Dees and his socialist partners can live the high life and work from swanky office space in downtown Montgomery, Ala.

In the report, the lie center equates liberty-minded, pro-Constitution conservative and libertarian Americans with the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazi skinheads, but it draws no real nexus beyond the bogies inside Mark Potok’s collectivist brain. Potok and the lie center have created a “hate group” designation for these people: Patriots.

He begins one section, under the heading “Once Again, Gun Control Spurs the ‘Patriots,’” with this screed:

Twenty years ago, the passage of the Brady gun control bill helped ignite the first wave of the “Patriot” movement, a combustible mix of gun-toting militias and baseless conspiracy theories about government perfidy that culminated in the 1995 mass murder of 168 people in an Oklahoma City federal building.

One may recall that these “baseless conspiracy theories about government perfidy” include the Federal government’s murder by gunfire and incineration of 83 people — including women and children — living by their own choice in a compound in Waco, Texas; the cold-blooded murder of 14-year-old Sammy Weaver (who was shot in the back by U.S. Marshal Bill Degan and/or other Federal agents) and Vicki Weaver as she held her 10-month-old baby (shot in the head by the criminal FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi, who received a commendation rather than a deserved murder charge); the passage by Congress of the 2nd Amendment-shredding Federal Assault Weapons Ban in 1994,  which outlawed semi-automatic weapons based on cosmetic features alone; and the 1993 attempt to force Americans into a socialist healthcare (deathcare) system dubbed Hillarycare.

Potok then makes a leap to tie displeasure over these instances of true “government perfidy” to the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Okla., with strings that have not been proven and that likely do not exist. However, while it is certain that the “government perfidy” did lead to a growth in the number of people who realized that government was getting out of control, it is more than likely that the Oklahoma City bombing was a false flag attack designed to bolster Bill Clinton’s failing Presidency, which was at its lowest point of his two terms. I explained that here. (And there is much more evidence available for those who wish to see it.)

This explanation, which I wrote in 2010, came after Clinton joined a chorus of Democrat progressives and statists and media talking heads (apologies for the redundancy) in comparing supporters of the then-burgeoning Tea Party movement with convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh (and Branch Davidians and Randy Weaver). So you see that Potok is just reviving a tired — but somewhat successful, thanks to the mainstream media government propaganda agents, many of whom turn to the lie center for “news” — message.

And just who does Potok and the lie center name as leaders of this “radical” right “Patriot” movement made up of “racists” and “extremists?” Senator Rand Paul (R-Ky.); Representative Trey Radel (R-Fla.), who has said Obama could be impeached for executive actions on gun control; Sheriff Richard Mack; The Oath Keepers (current and former military and law enforcement who have vowed to uphold the oath they swore to the Constitution); former Constitution Party Presidential candidate Chuck Baldwin; Matt Barber of Liberty Counsel Action; Tony Adkins of Conservative-daily.com; Larry Klayman, the founder of Judicial Watch and FreedomWatch; the Family Research Council; Joseph Farah of WND.com; Donald Trump; and unnamed lawmakers (but you know who you are) in Arizona, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee who proposed laws that sought to prevent Federal gun control from applying to their States.

On Thursday, Senator John McCain (Senile old fool and supporter of perpetual war-Ariz.) and his trained monkey, Senator Lindsey Graham (Fascist and Liar-S.C.), denigrated Paul and also some of Paul’s allies — with fallacious and specious arguments  — over his almost 13-hour filibuster in which he sought a straight answer from President Barack Obama and/or Attorney General Eric Holder about the use of drones to kill Americans. But McCain didn’t stop there. He also took to the Senate floor to take swipes at libertarians and the liberty movement with yet more logical fallacies.

But McCain and Graham are not the first of the establishment Republicans to attempt to marginalize supporters of the Constitution and small government with ad hominems and logical fallacies. Nor is it just the establishment elected class and its propagandists who casually throw around the term “extremist” when talking about the honest, hardworking American business owners; blue- and white-collar workers; veterans; retirees and students who are linked to the liberty movement through the original grassroots local Tea Party groups and libertarian-oriented “Ron Paulites.” Notice that in the comments below articles on this site and others there are those who attempt to smear the Tea Party with baseless ad hominems and comparisons to the Taliban.

Recall that during the 2000 election, then-candidate George W. Bush ran on a platform of “compassionate conservatism.” Compassionate conservatism was, as I said at the time, doublespeak for national socialism or fascism. It was used to imply that conservative principles were somehow not compassionate and that Bush was somehow more high-minded, thinking and compassionate than those who opposed him in the primary.

That Bush was more high-minded, thinking and compassionate was not borne out by history. Bush policies are what accelerated the journey to where we now find ourselves: living in a police state engaged in perpetual war with a bloated, deficit-riddled, ever-growing government and in a time where Senators and Americans who oppose those policies are branded as extremists or potential terrorists. It was opposition to Bush policies at the end of his term that sparked the growth of the Tea Party in the first place.

It’s a sad day indeed when there is a necessity to ask whether our government feels it can label us as terrorists and disregard the Constitution and kill us without due process and when just asking the question gets you branded as an extremist or, worse, a libertarian, a  terrorist or a Patriot.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, Thomas Payne, John Hancock, John Adams, James Madison, James Monroe, Alexander Hamilton and a host of others were our first patriots. If their idea of government is extreme in the eyes of the SPLC, McCain and Graham, then I’m a part of the “Patriot” movement, too.

I suppose that makes the lie center, McCain, Graham and others of their ilk enemies of freedom and, therefore, extremist enemies of America. Maybe they’ll be featured in the SPLC’s next issue.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American who has been writing a newsletter since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Old Henry

    Speaking of perpetual wars here is a link to a 43 minute presentation showing why we have not only the current wars, but all the wars over the last 200 + years. It is very informative and well worth the time.

    http://www.realecontv.com/page/22089.html

    • dan

      EXCELLENT and highly recommended…should be viral

      • Texas Ride

        Old Henry, that is an excellent video and something of great interest to me as I believe the Federal Reserve Banks and their private owners own this country and have said so many times.

        This country needs to rid itself of these Central Bankers and establish our own “State Issued Currency” instead of buying worthless paper printed by these self-annointed world rulers.

        These Federal Reserve bankers keep control of the countries of the world by the “Rule by Debt.” Wars are created against any country or leader that will not submit to the Central Bankers. These are the “globalist elites” that own our country and are the “Shadow Government” that is referred to by many. Americans are beginning to understand that this country is NOT their own. We must take America back and abolish the rule of the Federal Reserve owners. They are not part of our government, but they rule Washington.

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        Texas, you write: “This country needs to rid itself of these Central Bankers and establish our own ‘State Issued Currency’”

        Texas, America needs her Putin.
        1) “When Putin was elected president of Russia in 2000, Russia was BANKRUPT. Russia owed $16.6 billion to the Rothschild-run International Monetary Fund while her foreign debt to the Rothschild-controlled Paris & London Club of Creditors was over 36 billion dollars.” By 2006 Putin had PAID OFF Russia’s DEBT to the Rothschilds. Russia’s financial dependence on the foreign financiers was now OVER.

        2) Putin issued international ARREST WARRANT for Rothschild & Financial TERRORIST George Soros. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFumSJCiioc

        Watch the video and you’ll understand why Greece in mess & financial chaos.
        Now the terrorist Soros and also the Rothschilds & the Rockefellers can’t continue the evil speculations that has devastated the entire GLOBAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

        3) Putin wins the battle for Russian oil over the Rothschilds and removes him and all his minions from Russia and sends the Rothschild’s agent (Mikhail Khodorkovsky) behind the bars for 14 years.

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        Putin exposes the NOW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr5GxN3C8uw

        “Putin’s Prepared Remarks at 43rd Munich Conference on Security Policy”

        Putin: “This conference’s structure allows me to avoid excessive politeness and the need to speak in roundabout, pleasant but empty diplomatic terms. This conference’s format will allow me to say what I really think about international security problems … international security comprises much more than issues relating to military and political stability. It involves the stability of the global economy, overcoming poverty, economic security and developing a dialogue between civilizations.”

        “This universal, indivisible character of security is expressed as the BASIC PRINCIPLE that ‘SECURITY FOR ONE IS SECURITY FOR ALL’.”

        “It is world in which there is ONE MASTER, one sovereign [self-determining]. And at the end of the day this is pernicious [bad, malicious, wicked, evil] not only for all those within this system, but also for the sovereign itself because it DESTROYS ITSELF FROM WITHIN.
        And this certainly has nothing in common with DEMOCRACY. Because, as you know, DEMOCRACY IS THE POWER OF THE MAJORITY IN LIGHT OF THE INTERESTS AND OPINIONS OF THE MINORITY … WE ARE CONSTANTLY BEING TAUGHT ABOUT DEMOCRACY. But for some reason those WHO TEACH US DO NOT WANT TO LEARN THEMSELVES.”

        “I consider that the unipolar model is not only unacceptable but also impossible in today’s world … What is even more important is that the model itself is flawed because at its basis there is and can be NO MORAL FOUNDATIONS for modern civilization.”

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        How do you think WHY the current American regime hates Vladimir Putin?

        In January of 2009 Vladimir Putin gave a speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, which was “ignored” by the West’

        Putin gave insightful and helpful advice to help the world economy and saying the WORLD SHOULD AVOIID the Soviet mistake:

        “There is a temptation to expand direct interference of state in economy. In the Soviet Union that became an absolute. We paid a very dear price for that,” – Putin said.

        “Excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence is another possible mistake … In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute. In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.” – Vladimir Putin

        “There is no reason to believe that we can achieve better results by shifting responsibility onto the state.” – Vladimir Putin

        “The unjustified swelling of the budgetary deficit and the accumulation of the national debt are just as destructive as adventurous stock-jobbing (market game).” – Vladimir Putin

        In 2012 elections the Communists have won in America with Obama, but they miserably failed in Russia, received only 17% of the votes.

        Vladimir Putin was re-elected as President keeping the NWO order out of Russia while America continues to repeat the Soviet mistake.

    • Kevin

      This was very Informative and Information that I was completely unaware of. thank you for sharing.

  • Sarah

    Mr. Livingston. God bless you. You speak out with the truth and tell it so sincerely. I have enjoyed many of your articles and this is just one more.

    I have children and grandchildren. I confess that I spent the last 40 yrs. busy with my life and took no notice to politics. Oh, I voted for president. Obama woke me. I know what is happening and so sorry to know that some Americans still don’t get it. Papa Bush was a founding member of the Trilateral Comm. Obama’s administration has 5 members of the Trilateral Comm, 9 members of the Bilderbergs and 10 members belonging to Council on Foreign Relations. Please, look these up. They are New World Order Globalists Organizations. They are extremely powerful. The only obstacle in their way of World dominance is Israel and America. Why? Because we have weapons. We must never let them take them away from us. We believe in God and they can’t take that away from us.

    I have discussed all this with my children and they seem to feel that something has to be done. It must be done at this point in time because I see my grandchildren plugged into all their toys and they seem to not know or care about what happens to America. It is this generation that must do something now or America is gone forever.

    • Old Henry

      Sarah, check out the link I posted above. It will help in your understanding of what is, and has been, going on and why.

      For the love of money is the root of all evil.

      On Saturday I was ruminating about our sad state of affairs and how it will affect my kids in coming years, but most importantly my grandchildren. I used to put faith in the elecoral process. No longer. More and more I am coming to the realization that a civil war is going to be our only option. And given our soft self-centered nature I do not think the American people are up to the task.

      However – better to die a free people than die as a slave, but that still does not help our grandkids…

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        For something that is the “root of all evil”, Y’all spend a lot of time
        talking about it. ( while pretending to be talking about something else.)

      • TIME

        Dear People,

        The ROOT of all evil is – not money, no ~ its in fact ~ “POWER” – How can one acquire POWER?
        By way of Money, as there is always someone who will do anything for a little money.

        Thus we are all Prostitutes as we work for ~ “MONEY” – we set the value standard by what amount we will work for, thus they who print the money then set the standard of what they want of you, to get said money.

        Whats really Sad – is that in most cases you are working to destroy yourself, yet you think its for some benifit to make all well ~ to heal the sick, saddly this well crafted propaganda – is infact written by Prostitutes that do that special job.

        If you can all step back and look at Politicians as rental cars – they then become far more obvious in their game.
        As in if the people who print the money tell them they will rent them and pay them enough money to run for office, the money makers get what they want and the rental politicians get what they want, { the illusion / delusion of power .}

        So, whats broken and how to fix it?

        Whats broken is that we as a nation have no “moral code” ~ thus we have allowed our moral codes to be set by “Rental Politicians”

        BTW ~ Who don’t work for your interest they work for who really pays them as well of course themself.

        When and only when the American people wake up to this TRUTH, can you start down the road of FREEDOM again.

        Saddly the real Law of the land has been sitting on a dusty shelf for over 160 years now, of what oddly most Americans are clueless about that little fact. And will not yield to it even when shown it as clear as day. Thus, the end result will be rusty chains of bondage that will enslave all Americans with equal measure, due to the good v bad ~ Prostitute mentality we all have been sold.

        Peace and Love, Shalom

      • http://www.stanleyfasteners.com Rick Stanley

        Lets see…power, money, prostitution. It appears you have too much “time” on your hands. You are over analyzing our society, politicians, the difficulties we in Ameria face. Take a deep breath, count to ten, smell the flowers, take another deep breath and go back and visit with your psycho-analist once again. Yes, there are people who want power. Most are pretty evil. Some have good intentions and they are just evil by accident. But to compare all of us in America to prostitutes, because we are willing to work for money to feed our families and to provide a future for our children is pure unadulterated crap. Have a nice day and please sir, go back to your analyst, who obviously needs your money.

      • TIME

        Dear Rick,

        I see your totaly indoctronated into the “mindless sheep” class, as in the ones who’s comprehension skills are non existent. This is quite obvious as per your feckless discourse of what displays the face of the problems with America today. “Illiterate ignorance.”

        But non the less I do wish that someday your eyes will open to the larger view ~ as in get out of your tight small minded box, and grow some gray matter.

        God Bless you; may the Chirst keep you safe from yourself.

        Peace and Love, Shalom

  • http://personalliberty Alondra

    Watch, LISTEN and Pass it on: Constitution vs. Supreme Court & Government

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veao90AVLJg

    • Old Henry

      Thanks Alondra. Good link. That woman was well-versed. I passed it on.

      • dan

        agree…that gal (Halda Publius?) knows her stuff…and is the epitemy of a Patriot
        Heard her address a group in Tennessee the other day and I wish we
        could get our legislatures to listen….

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        Everyone MUST to e-mail this video to Representatives, Senators, Governors, Sheriffs, to ALL officials who takes the OATH “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies – foreign and DOMESTIC.”

        “The PENALTY GOOD MEN pay for INDIFFERENCE to public affairs is to be RULED BY EVIL MEN.” – Plato, the world’s most influential Ancient Greek Philosopher

        14 States SHERIFF’S ASSOCIATIONS and 348 Sheriffs and police chiefs across the country are saying “NO” to ALL unconstitutional policies of the Kenyan EGO-Centric Psychopath.
        http://cspoa.org/sheriffs-gun-rights/

      • http://personalliberty Alondra

        Do you want to know WHAT companies are fighting back against restrictive laws?

        Go here and see the list: http://www.thepoliceloophole.com/

        This is a list of a 131 companies that are AGAINST gun control and have taken the step to publicly announce that THEY WILL NOT SELL ITEMS TO STATES, COUNTIES, CITIES, AND MUNICIPALITIES THAT RESTRICT THEIR CITIZENS RIGHTS TO OWN THEM; therefore closing the “police loophole” themselves.

        Add your company to the list and Please PASS IT ON to all your e-mail contacts. Thanks.

        P.S. Yesterday I checked – it was 126 (3/10/13) companies.

    • Kevin

      Thank you for your link I enjoyed it very much. more please.

  • http://personalliberty Alondra

    Constitutional scholar Publius Huldah explains why the Federal gun laws are unlawful.

    Constitution “is one of enumerated powers only. When “We the people” ordained and established the Constitution, we created the Federal government. It is our creature…It is not our master.”

    “[A]ll powers enumerated to the Federal government are listed in Constitution … we [People] delegated only 21 powers to the Federal government.” Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 1-16 are those powers.

    Please listen her: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlQasG9a-8

    Pass it on.

    • Sarah

      The other day an attorney stated that we created the federal government and gave it all it’s powers. So, why, then can we not take away all their powers?

      • http://www.stanleyfasteners.com Rick Stanley

        We ceratinly can cut their power. It is called an Amendment to the Constitution and is voted upon “by the people”. I have called for a “Bill of Rights Protection Amendment”. It will provide 25 years of jail and $1 million dollar fine for those in government, legislators, presidents, judges, who violate the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, all of them. Can you see the process of thinking here? Google Rick Stanley Activist and you will see my credentials in the hundreds of articles there documenting my wrongful imprisonment. Perhaps something good can come of it yet… The “Bill of Rights Protection Amendment” is in the rough draft discussion stage right now, for the last week. I will have more discussion with some legal analysts who are fellow constitutionalists in the coming months, from across the country. I am attempting to get the likes of Rand Paul to sponsor this Bill of Rights Protection Amendment. He seems to be a bit busy this week… Will keep working on it…

      • Texas Ride

        Rick, don’t confuse people! I only read your first sentence and you are totally wrong.

        The Constitution does NOT give the government anything but very limited power. We don’t need to change the Constitution, we need to ENFORCE IT! The regime has usurped nearly total control and it has done so illegally. Power needs to be decentralized and the States need to take back their rights to govern themselves.

        Government has very little that it is supposed to do for the country other than represent the country abroad (only when needed) and provide national security from invaders (which it has utterly failed to do.) There is no where in the Constitution that gives the regime the right to tell us what lightbulbs we must buy or what insurance we must buy! If we are to remain a free Nation, we must go back to a constitutional government.

    • Old Henry

      Done!

      Great link!

    • Kevin

      Thanks again.

  • 10Wheeler

    Herr Doktor Paul Josef Goebbels is not dead after all! He is the guiding light for the SPLC! What a bunch of nut cases that group is!

  • Texas Ride

    Sounds to me like the Republican Party is in a “death spiral.” It couldn’t happen to a more deserving group of old dogs that have their noses up the dark-side of the socialists. McCain and his “trained monkey” Graham ( I love it) are nothing but progressives by definition and do not represent the views of conservatives. This is something that has been a long time in coming, but is desperately needed. Conservatives have long been without a voice in Washington and have been kept “in check” by the “progressive right.”

    Rand Paul did a good thing when he drew attention to the imminent ability of government using drones to seek out and kill Americans on American soil. These targets would most certainly be Americans that were in the “crosshairs” of the government’s ire, and they would be Americans perceived as a threat to the dictatorship.

    In contrast, the government has plans to mirandize Bin Ladens son-in-law and give him the full legal rights of an American citizen and give him a civilian trial in Manhatten. What gives!
    The regime captures a well-know, foreign terrorist, on a foreign battlefield…but, it gives him all the rights of a civilian American? While real Americans, it seems, will not be afforded such rights in their own country but are more likely to be hunted down with drones.

    • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

      So, which “rights” should he be deprived of? Why?

      Are you concerned that “justice” will not be served?

      Are you concerned with the nature of the ‘defense’ he will offer?

      • Texas Ride

        Don’t worry your head about “my concers” Galt. Reread my post and figure it out if you must.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Actually I expected you to be intelligent enough to answer the questions,
        provided they were not too complicated or beyond your comprehension.

        My apologies…..I often have unreasonable expectations of others as it relates
        to these things……….

      • Texas Ride

        Galt, I don’t need to answer your idiotic questions.

        If you can’t read and comprehend go on to the next post.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        I understand……you refuse to answer…….I agree. I mean why look even MORE
        foolish than you already do?

      • Texas Ride

        Galt, I understand your frustration, you like to show people that you are of “consequence” and it is not working.

        News flash! I am NOT here to answer your questions!

        The fact that you don’t like it means nothing to me…neither does your feeble attempt at “school-yard insults.” Grow-up and stop being a bully.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Texas, I said I understand why you are refusing to answer the questions.

        It is not necessary to keep refusing and I did apologize for having such
        unreasonable expectations…….hopefully, your recovery from this traumatic
        experience will not be one of prolonged agony.

  • http://omanuel.wordpress.com omanuel

    Hiroshima was destroyed on 6 Aug 1945, Nagasaki was destroyed on 9 Aug 1945, and the United Nations was established on 24 Oct 1945 because world leaders were afraid humans would use that source of energy to destroy life on Earth if old national boundaries continued.

    In 1946, George Orwell started writing his warning of an impending tyrannical government [1]

    http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

    and Sir Fred Hoyle [2] started laying the foundation for misinformation – disguised as consensus science – of energy stored in the cores of:

    a.) Heavy atoms like uranium and plutonium
    b.) Ordinary stars like the Sun
    c.) Some planets like Jupiter
    e.) Galaxies like ours

    Prior to that, Sir Eddington, Sir Hoyle and all the astronomers and astrophysicists in their circle of friends believed the interior of the Sun was mostly iron (Fe, element #26). It is, but since 1946 humans have been deceived into believing that the Sun’s exhaust product, hydrogen (H, element #1), is its fuel.

    http://omanuel.wordpress.com/about/#comment-2204

    With kind regards,
    - Oliver K. Manuel
    Former NASA Principal
    Investigator for Apollo

    [1] George Owrell (Eric Arthur Blair), “Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984)” Secker and Warburg, 1949: http://www.amazon.com/Nineteen-Eighty-Four-Centennial-Edition-George/dp/0452284236

    [2] Fred Hoyle, “The chemical composition of the stars,” Monthly Notices Royal Astronomical Society 106, 255-259 (1946); “The synthesis of elements from hydrogen,” ibid., 343-383 (1946)

    • Flashy

      “Prior to that, Sir Eddington, Sir Hoyle and all the astronomers and astrophysicists in their circle of friends believed the interior of the Sun was mostly iron (Fe, element #26). It is, but since 1946 humans have been deceived into believing that the Sun’s exhaust product, hydrogen (H, element #1), is its fuel. ”

      Criminey, now we have the “conspirator theorists’ saying the astronomical scientist industry is in on the deal against them … and Fred Flintstone and our ancestors walked amongst the dinosaur’s….

      FYI, The Sun is fuelled by hydrogen, fusing 620 million tons of hydrogen nuclei into helium each second.

      • FreedomFighter

        our ancestors walked amongst the dinosaur’s….

        Even if you believe Darwinism ( I dont its to full of gaping holes ) our ancestors did walk among the dino’s just on 4 legs

        …if you reject Darwin, they did walk among dino’s too.

        Either way Flashbang, you got it wrong.

        Laus Deo
        Semper FI

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Why do Flash, Mel, and GALT waste time responding to omanuel and his “crackpot science”?

        I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again—-I have pursued omanuel’s postings across the web and he is a “serial poster” who injects the same crazy non science on sites and into threads where, (like this one), it would have no relevance even if it WERE true. PLEASE stop encouraging him by paying any attention to him and responding to what he posts. There are crackpot sites he posts on, and that’s where he should go (and remain) as he seeks attention. His stuff on PLD is just more mud in the swamp and the W.I.F.I. make plenty of that without O’M's help.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Didn’t waste all that much time……….RBT

        E=MCC or E/C=MC or E/CM=C or E/CC=M

        Just depends on your point of view.

      • http://omanuel.wordpress.com omanuel

        No, Flashy, the Sun is not fueled by hydrogen, and cars are not fueled by CO2.

        1. Cars generate and discard CO2 via tail pipes
        2. Stars generate and discard H via the solar wind

        On page 153-154 of his 1994 autobiography, Sir Fred Hoyle [1] himself admits that:

        i.) He, Sir Eddington, and their circle of astronomy – astrophysics friends all believed the interior of the Sun was mostly iron before 1946.

        ii.) The model of H-filled stars was adopted without discussion of debate in 1946.

        If you want to believe unscientific, nonsense – that is your decision. But mental laziness will lead you to servitude.

        If you are too lazy to look up and read Fred Hoyle’s autobiography, you can read direct quotes from his autobiography on my web site:

        http://omanuel.wordpress.com/about/#comment-2204

        In “Home Is Where the Wind Blows,” Sir Fred Hoyle refers to his meeting with Sir Arthur Eddington one spring day in 1940:

        A. “We both believed that the Sun was made mostly of iron, two parts iron to one part of hydrogen, more or less. The spectrum of sunlight, chock-a-block with lines of iron, had made this belief seem natural to astronomers for more than fifty years.” . . . (page 153)

        B. “The high-iron solution continued to reign supreme in the interim (at any rate, in the astronomical circles to which I was privy) until after the Second World War,” . . .

        C. “when I was able to show, to my surprise, that the high-hydrogen, low iron solution was to be preferred for the interiors as well as for the atmospheres.” (page 153-154)

        D. “My paper on the matter confounded a doctrine of (Raymond) Lyttleton, who used to say there are three stages in the acceptance by the world of a new idea.

        _ 1. The idea is nonsense.
        _ 2. Somebody thought of it before you did.
        _ 3. We believed it all the time.

        This matter of the high-hydrogen solution was the only occasion, in my experience, when the first and second of these stages were missing. (page 154).

        Freedom, Flashy, is not for the mentally lazy. Here are a couple of other research papers [2,3] with references to hundreds of measurements that show the interior of the Sun is iron, not hydrogen

        With kind regards,
        - Oliver K. Manuel
        PhD Nuclear Chemistry
        Postdoc Space Physics

        [1] Fred Hoyle, Home Is Where the Wind Blows, (University Science Books, 441 pages, 1994)

        [2] ”Neutron Repulsion”, The APEIRON Journal 19, 123-150 (2012): http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V19NO2pdf/V19N2MAN.pdf

        [3] “Composition of the solar interior: Information from isotope ratios”,
        Proceedings of SOHO 12/GONG Conference on Local and Global Helioseismology:
        The Present and the Future, 27 Oct-1 Nov 2002, Big Bear Lake, CA, U.S.A. (ESA SP-517, editor: Huguette Lacoste) pp. 345-348 (2003).
        http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0410717v1
        http://www.omatumr.com/abstracts/gong-2002.pdf

        See also: http://orach24463.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/the-sinister-underpinnings-of-the-climate-change-movement/

      • Charlie

        GALT,,,
        IF,,,? you can’t tie in “Outer Space” with “Inner Space”,,,then you may have a vacuum between the space of your ears… Hint,,your equation is wrong….

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Really Charlie? Well now you have stated something SPECIFIC you can prove.

        Get to it son…….take all the time you need.

    • http://basque2222@gmail.com Mel Laraway

      Sorry, omanuel, but you are badly misinformed concerning the Sun’s composition. It is overwhelmingly hydrogen, which is undergoing nuclear fusion and the end products being vast amounts of radiation and helium. I am sure that NO ONE working for NASA believes your “theory” about the Sun’s being composed largely of iron.

      The Sun as well as all other stars started out as bodies composed mainly of hydrogen, which was consumed in thermonuclear reactions and subsequently the helium generated thereby was heated to a high enough temperature to undergo thermonuclear reactions to produce the heavier elements. The Sun possesses elements heavier than hydrogen and helium because it formed from hydrogen, helium, in addition to heavier elements generated from a previous supernova explosion.

      Please provide any evidence for a star composed largely of iron being able to generate any energy by thermonuclear activity. I would bet you cannot.

      • http://omanuel.wordpress.com omanuel

        Mel:

        Iron is not the source of heat. Iron is the most abundant element in the mantle that surrounds the Sun ‘s pulsar core.

        Please see references 1-3:

        [1] Fred Hoyle, Home Is Where the Wind Blows, (University Science Books, 441 pages, 1994) pp. 153-154

        [2] ”Neutron Repulsion”, The APEIRON Journal 19, 123-150 (2012): http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V19NO2pdf/V19N2MAN.pdf

        [3] “Composition of the solar interior: Information from isotope ratios”, Proceedings of SOHO 12/GONG Conference on Local and Global Helioseismology: The Present and the Future, 27 Oct-1 Nov 2002, Big Bear Lake, CA, U.S.A. (ESA SP-517, editor: Huguette Lacoste) pp. 345-348 (2003). http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0410717v1

      • http://basque2222@gmail.com Mel Laraway

        This is in response to omanuel:

        Please read the following regarding the source of energy for the Sun and other stars; it is universally accepted by astrophycisists.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

    • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

      I believe you will find that the exhaust product of stars is known as light
      of various frequencies behaving as particles and waves.

      Hydrogen is an “element” whose fusion produces this radiation under the
      influence of the force of gravity.

      Since star’s have various masses, different fusion sequences are possible,
      which produce other elements, in main sequence stars, as is our sun, helium
      begins to fuse producing beryllium ( normal isotope ), which also fuses with
      helium, producing carbon ( and gamma radiation ), which also fuses with helium,
      producing oxygen ( and gamma radiation ), etc.

      For other sequences and variations there of: see spectral classes of stars.

    • Vicki

      omanuel writes:
      “…but since 1946 humans have been deceived into believing that the Sun’s exhaust product, hydrogen (H, element #1), is its fuel.”

      If H2 is the exhaust product what is the fuel and what is the reaction sequence?

      • Flashy

        H2?????? by the light of the stars…Vicki…hate to tell you this, but standing alone, Hydrogen cannot combine into H2. It needs a bonding atom .. like Oxygen.

      • Vicki

        Flashy says:
        “H2?????? by the light of the stars…Vicki…hate to tell you this, but standing alone, Hydrogen cannot combine into H2. It needs a bonding atom .. like Oxygen.”

        Ummm… H2 is the proper designation for Hydrogen gas at STP. Now in a star it would be in a plasma form where it is really more of a pile of protons and electrons rather then an actual element. Oxygen would not be able to stay bonded to 2 hydrogen atoms in the temp/pressure of a typical star.

      • http://omanuel.wordpress.com omanuel

        Vicki, the Sun’s pulsar core is its source of energy. The reaction sequence that generates hydrogen is given here:

        1.”Neutron Repulsion”, The APEIRON Journal 19, 123-150 (2012): http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V19NO2pdf/V19N2MAN.pdf

        2. “Yes, the Sun is a pulsar,” Nature (submitted 12 Dec 2012) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10640850/Yes_the_Sun_is_a_pulsar.pdf

      • http://omanuel.wordpress.com omanuel

        Many readers here, including Flashy and Galt, are victims of “Ideological subversion”

        http://personalliberty.com/2013/03/13/kgb-defector-yuri-bezmenovs-warning-to-america/

      • Charlie

        Kevin,,,
        You got the same problem with The Bible…………………………………………

      • Kevin

        I forgive you Charlie

    • Kevin

      Ok maybe I’m just too thick but what is it exactly you would like me to believe???? Im seriously lost trying to decipher what it is that you are trying to say. speak as though you were talking to a child. Maybe then I can have an “AH HA” moment. but Im doubtful.

      • Kevin

        I forgive you Charlie…. Good luck.

  • http://http/google MarkOwen

    This country is in big trouble, the closet muslim communists are in the very posts in government that have to be held in check. All this name calling amongst the true patriots has to stop. The real thing we have to worry about is, will our military or police follow the orders of the Obama bin Biden regime and attempt to imprison or open fire on AMERICAN citizens or not. Will they kick in our doors with their black and jackbooted NAZI type uniforms, and attempt to confiscate our weapons. Will the drones be used or not? Don’t say you know for sure because you don’t! WE THE PEOPLE still means something to me, how about you!

  • FreedomFighter

    “George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, Thomas Payne, John Hancock, John Adams, James Madison, James Monroe, Alexander Hamilton and a host of others were our first patriots. If their idea of government is extreme in the eyes of the SPLC, McCain and Graham, then I’m a part of the “Patriot” movement, too.”

    That would include about 70-80% of Americans also, the other 20% consisting of Satanists, atheists, and socialists, Marxist, Islamic, fascists, Nazi’s and other hate groups (notice all these groups reject or deny GOD). Even then, most are misinformed of what socialism/communism/fascists really are and just want the free ride of entitlements.

    “The hate group I call the Southern Preposterous Lie Center”

    …they are part of a plan, the plan for the NEW WORLD ORDER, a world government. Actually I’m not against a world government, just against a world government based on socialism/communism/fascist principles run by Satanists. Think Orwell’s’ 1984 combined with Huxley’s Brave New World, only far more evil and oppressive.

    Their own writings describe a dystrophic society – reduction in population from current 6-7 billion to 500 million (that’s killing billions), Eugenics that divide the population into classes of masters/slaves, where the slaves are controlled by drugs, suppressed breeding, DNA manipulation to create submissive, drug dependent, physically stunted and mentally stunted workers and masters enhanced by both DNA and technology to become “god-men” that travel the stars, living forever thru technology,

    Not my ideas/words, theirs.

    Do some research – read some history, and you will become afraid, very afraid, they want you dead, your children enslaved, your decedents transformed into drug controlled, stunted, idiot slaves while they seek immortality and godhood on utopia earth.

    Reading material: (a starting list)
    Bloodlines of the Illuminati
    Bohemian Grove: Cult of Conspiracy
    Eco-Tyranny

    Video:
    Alex Jones Everything Special (covers allot of ground and his hit rate on whats happening and going to happen is very high)
    http://www.infowarsshop.com/Alex-Jones-Everything-Special-_p_780.html

    Laus Deo
    Semper FI

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      That New World Order hinges around the dollar, the dollar being the world’s soverign currency. What to back the paper dollars with since their isn’t anything in America to do that. They settled with oil. All transactions for oil must be done with the dollar. Some countries are in the fold and some not. Iran and Syria are two countries the are not, like Iraq and Libya weren’t. Russia isn’t either and it could be a problem, especially since Russia has a pact with Iran whereby if one is attacked the other will come to it’s aid.Yup! The love of money is the root of all evil.

      • FreedomFighter

        The Bible has not been wrong yet, they will probably attain world government, for a brief time.

        Laus Deo
        Semper FI

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    Everything Bob wrote here is true but in my opinion we/ve lost the ability to look at ourselves and see who we are. As I read the posts it is obvious that there are many people more than qualified to hold seats in government because they adhere to our Constitution in their political thinking. They humble themselves to it, don’t try rewrite it as they fit. People like the leaders of the SPLC, McCain, Graham and their ilk see them- selves as the Roman Emperor Caligula saw himself: “If I am man, then my subjects are something else. If they are men, then I must be something more”. They can think like that because we let them. When a man came to Christ asking him to make his brother share the inheritance, He said to him in essence: Who am I that I should do such a thing? Christ put himself on the level of man, and we put these people of on the level of “divine” beings. The only power Satan has is the power of persuasion, and we let him use it. He puts the McCains in life thinking like they do and us to think as we do. It was said: If they’ve got the nerve to ask, we must have nerve enough to say NO. This thinking on their part comes straight out of the communist Karl Marx’s teachings. Identify your enemies with people and things the people find to be repugnant. Word association. Our minds is what they are after and once they get those, the bodies will soon follow. I had a boss once that said: When you see a dog turd in the gutter, don’t step on it because one day it may rise up and by your boss. That’s us. We’ve let dog turds rise up and be our bosses.

    • http://www.stanleyfasteners.com Rick Stanley

      Bravo Christian American for your well thought out post. You are an educated and intellectual individual, with certain wisdom. You are right that America is lost. However, some of us are trying to find the way back to liberty. There are many posting here who are trying to do so. There are some who are here to discredit liberty, who are not only lost, but embrace the satanic hell they will one day become used to, for the rest of their days in eternity. That is their choice. Just as their opinion is a choice, as is ours. Some are correct and some are wrong. Stupid is, as stupid does… Love that line. God bless you and yours.

      • Flashy

        Hmmmm…See the Taliban. See the extremist right of this Nation. is there a difference? not in reading the two posts above there isn’t…

      • Opal the Gem

        “Hmmmm…See the Taliban. See the extremist right of this Nation. is there a difference? not in reading the two posts above there isn’t”

        Flushy that accusation is so worn out it has less traction than a car with bald tires trying to climb a slick red clay hill.

      • momo

        Flashman, I doubt the Taliban wants liberty and freedom of choice for the people of Afghanistan.

      • Vicki

        Flashy says:
        “Hmmmm…See the Taliban. See the extremist right of this Nation. is there a difference? not in reading the two posts above there isn’t…”

        One of the 2 uses the force of government to get their way. The other doesn’t. Now lets look at the current administration and the Taliban. Is there a difference?

        Not from reading what they are planning with things like the NDAA 2012

    • eddie47d

      Maybe you should demand a stronger TRUTH about right wing extremism and how they hold our society hostage to their way of thinking. Why isn’t there articles on Shawna Forde and the Minutemen Defense or Chris Simcox. She has killed for their cause and others are willing. How about Kevin Harpham who planted bombs in Seattle to stir up racial problems. He was a member of the National Alliance as was Jason McGhee of Georgia. He killed 4 and wounded 3 for the cause. Maybe William Holbert who killed 6 and a member of the National Alliance should be written up on. SPLC exposes them all and their dastardly deeds but we hear crickets from other media sources. Yes the TRUTH should be told yet so much of it isn’t.

      • Texas Ride

        The left can’t defend anything done by progressives. There is no defense and they know it.

        The only thing the lefties can do is try to change direction of the conservative conversation with some off-the-wall comment. These guys will go on and on with long posts that are full of crap that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Watch and read (some of it, don’t waste time on all their garbage.)

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Texas, That is why I ignore their posts and do not waste my time responding to them. They are here to take up space. I really wish Bob would cease to allow them on the site.

      • Texas Ride

        Good for you, Capitalist. I don’t read their long and useless posts, and rarely respond. But, they do get a lot of “clicks and activity” for this forum. That is of value to the site.
        I wish we didn’t have to endure their stupidity, as well. They are not appreciated here, nor will they ever be able to justify the progressive agenda.

      • Michael J.

        eddie47d,
        Total excrement bonanza… Not worth rebutting. I have worked for the Koch family in their private home, and I can assure you that they are possessed of the mindset of patriotic Americans who’ve earned the lifestyle they enjoy.

        The real question here is how is it that PLD like the rest of the country has been overrun by minority liberal ideologues, who reflect no more than 20% of the population but try to maintain a majority facade? This is a situation we must remedy.

        What this country needs is a new Ronald Reagan to lead an army of Joseph McCarthey’s to expose and destroy liberal communism wherever it exists. Won’t be hard to do because it is everywhere including your house.

      • eddie47d

        Its exactly on topic Texas Ride but you choose to put your head under the bushel basket! I’m still waiting for some TRUTH to come out of your mouth but that darn bushel basket your wearing keeps getting in the way. Is that your echo chamber?

      • eddie47d

        After reading your Saturday nonsense why should anyone believe what you say now Michael J ? I didn’t mention Koch and I’m not even sure they even belong to any of the far right movements I mentioned. Praising McCarthy still won’t get you anywhere unless you still enjoy his witch hunting policies or is that Mr anti-civil liberties.

      • Michael J.

        eddie47d,
        You’re right about my Koch brothers remark. Don’t know where that came from. Maybe I was having a blonde moment… maybe it was temporary insanity… or maybe what I was experiencing for those few moments was the day to day mindset of a Liberal. What ever it was… sure was scary. I remember knowing what I was typing was not right but continued typing anyway. My conscience was saying stop… but something evil kept driving my fingers. Thankfully it was temporary, and who knows… devinely inspired? How better to feel the inner pain of an indoctrinated liberal than to walk a mile in his or her shoes. My past ridicule and belittlement focused on tortured souless Liberals has now been replaced by pity.

  • ibcamn

    WE need to start handing out player cards with talking points,vote scores and such just to keep track of all this garbage!
    We need to set us back to less gov’t and it just aint gonna happen on the tracks were on!

    Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth!…and right now it tastes like s#*t!

  • jopa

    The Libertarian Party and the Tea Party started off with good intentions but then their messages all started falling apart.Everyone would be for smaller government and following the Constitution to the letter of the law.Then along comes the likes of Karl Rove and the Koch brothers and the original message was lost and it seems as though the main mission was the well being of the rich.Then along comes the KKK, the gun nuts, the radical preppers and the skin-heads all being welcomed with open arms by the T- Party and Libertarians in order to gain a louder voice in numbers.The original Libertarian party has been lost and now most messages are mainly how to destroy Washington to turn it around, keeping powder dry. how to manipulate your rifle to kill hundreds in seconds, arm yourself to the teeth rather than a legislative process for your message.Sounds to me like two differant Americas.

    • http://www.stanleyfasteners.com Rick Stanley

      I was a member of the Libertarian Party until Noveber 6, 2002, when I resigned after a US Senate run in Colorado as the Libertarian candidate. I resigned because I realized that the Libertarian Party was a herd of cats, never to become a political force in American politics. The Libertarian Party was started in 1971, they were people who were the libertarian wing of the Republican Party, who gave that party it’s soul. Unfortunately, after 40 years they have proven to be ineffective, with such policies as open borders being pushed by fringes of the party. You have seen the aftermath of the government’s essential open borders policy, the last 30 years in America. Yes, Karl Rove and people like him hijacked the original Tea Party concept from the libertarians and Ron Paul, however, standing up for concepts like gun rights and demanding the government go back within the boundries of the Constitution are certainly not the province of hate groups or “gun nuts”. I personally like the Tea Party message of today. Your post sounds like the “lost” libertarians of the 21st Century: Confused and dazed, as to what you really stand for. Most of the libertarians I know, who are not “lost” have moved back to the Republican Party to try and bring back it’s soul and to influence American politics in a postive direction. However, each of us must find our own way, in our own time. God bless you and yours.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        My feelings as well. I left in 1986 after the open borders people began getting louder and louder. I really think the Republican Party needs to get rid of the Rockefeller Republicans (RINO) like Graham, McCain, Jeb Bush, G.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, Luger, Bennett, etc.

      • http://www.stanleyfasteners.com Rick Stanley

        I certainly understand your comments about the NEOCONS you mentioned. They are war hawks through and through, maintaining the military industrial comples that Eisenhower warned us of in the 50′s. The Republican Party certainly is a varied group of people who “supposedly” want limited government. So many special interest groups in both of the two major parties. No wonder the Police State of America is as scary as it is today. If we could go back to the founding principles…

    • Brad in TX

      Jopa you ned to turn off CNN and MSNBC and tune in every second to FOX News until you finally get what American stands for. You my friend are in danager KoolAidism and may want to stat attending a 12 step program for you liberalism disease.

      • speedle

        Jopa, I’m sure of any of the Tea Party organizations that welcomed “Skin Heads” into their organizations for any reason. could you cite an example of this? Are you suggesting that “Skin Heads” be prevented from voting, or that their vote shouldn’t count? Just curious.

      • speedle

        Too big a hurry – sorry. Jopa, I’m NOT sure of any of the Tea Party organizations that welcomed “Skin Heads” into their organizations for any reason. could you cite an example of this? Are you suggesting that “Skin Heads” be prevented from voting, or that their vote shouldn’t count? Just curious.

      • Grok

        In other words, Tune in to the Conservative Brain Washing Channel and avoid getting several perspectives on the facts that cause that Liberal Condition, RATIONAL THOUGHT!

    • http://www.facebook.com/lisa.thompson.5688 Lisa Thompson

      Give me a break! You obviously have no clue whatsoever. Neither the Tea Party or the Libertarians can be bunched in with the KKK or nazis, NEO or otherwise. You talking heads on the left show your ignorance and hatred daily with comments like what you just posted. Please stop wasting people’s time with your “moonbat” conspiracies.

    • Capitalist at Birth

      Can you cite evidence that the Tea Parry is rife with skin heads and KKK members in it’s ranks? What exactly is a Gun Nut? Someone who can read, actually comprehend, and understand what “shall not be infringed” means? What is a radical prepper? Someone like me that is buying and storing canned/freeze dried food, water, camping equipment, firearms, and ammunition?

    • Vicki

      jopa says:
      “The Libertarian Party and the Tea Party started off with good intentions but then their messages all started falling apart.Everyone would be for smaller government and following the Constitution to the letter of the law.”

      The rest of your post makes it clear that you do not consider yourself part of the “everyone” you mentioned. Then again so many of your other posts have made that clear already.

  • moses

    people hitler is in the white house in all gov the devil is in them all the whole system in possed by the devil ,oboma and queerwood are useing mass brainwashing through movies ,singers ,oboma through his speaches ,just like hitler did , so wake up only fools think this is just fools who dont know no better ,it is all a plan by the devils .

  • JCfromDC

    Bob, you MIGHT want to remove Hamilton from that end list of patriots. He went off the deep end during the Adams presidency, smeared both Jefferson and Adams, and generally made a fool of himself to both Federalists (Adams) and Republicans (Jefferson) at the time. No wonder Burr plugged him. Abby Adams referred him as the “spare Cassius” and the “cock sparrow Napoleon”. Probably the most dangerous man in America at the close of the 18th Century.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear JCfromDC,

      You are correct in your assessment of Hamilton.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

    • Flashy

      JCfromDC..interesting take on Hamilton and his role in the beginning of this nation. if you want to concentrate on his latter years, you fail to mention he was of the same Party as Adams, and split from Adams over the Alien and Sedition Act as well as he thought Adams was to cozy with the British. Not to mention he thought he was in line as Washington’s successor and Adams pulled a fast one reneging on a deal to get Adams elected in the first place. That Abigal Adams said that about Hamilton is no surprise…hamilton cos Adams the election.

      When the votes came in tied between Jefferson and Burr (Adams in third), amongst the Federalists, Hamilton worked to swing the elective votes to Jefferson. now…if you were against jefferson, you could say hamilton ws a two timing snake. If you think Jefferson turned out to be an OK or better president, you should be seeing Hamilton in a different light than you do

      Hamilton was a federalist and was for a strong central federal government. Only jefferson gave that assurance of his policies moving us that direction.

      In one view, one which takes a mistaken and skewed viewpoint of those times by placing them in this time and era and political world, you would be correct. Of course, that would be rewriting history to fit the facts as you desire.

      In a rational realistic view of the times and the politics, you would be in gregious error.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002839359789 William Mdcannold Jr.

    Succinctly: We have a resurgence of very, very stupid and vulnerable Germans, Russians, Italians, Japanese and Chinese (among others) who will find any manner of ways to excuse their dependency as righteousness for the masses. I was in university during the 60′s when the hippies of the “social equity” gang were smoking pot, sucking up
    LSD, pissing and crapping in the street, living in rat and flea infested tents and boxes among the pines, burning bras and jiggling about campus as “free” women. We should have rounded up the whole lot and sent them to vacation in Pakistan for six months. They would have been on their scabby knees begging our state department to get them out in less than a week to escape stoning ! These are the same folks with whom the (younger) and illegitimate president Davis allies himself. As Churchill stated at the close of WWII: The wolf may be removed but the bitch that bore him still lives. This genetically diminished bunch of intellects has always been with us and always will be. We simply need to better learn to identify and manage them for the qualitative betterment of all.

    • Mark Belk

      What are you saying? Are you high or drunk? I have read your post twice and I still don’t get it.

    • Karolyn

      “Magname them”? How do you propose that be carried out in a free country?

      • Karolyn

        Damn keyboard! “Manage” them.

    • Vicki

      William Mdcannold Jr. writes:
      ” We simply need to better learn to identify and manage them for the qualitative betterment of all.”

      So you are saying you think yourself among the elite who are forcing a one world government on us? Your statement sounds like it could have come directly from any of them.

    • Texas Ride

      William, I get what you are saying and agree.

    • Kevin

      What William is saying in his condensed Pros is that he was around for the 60′s free love and drug movement and that these same people are now running the funny farm (Government) and that it would have been better to have dealt with them then. How he would have actually done this I cannot tell. thats as much as I can tell.

  • Kevin

    It doesn’t take a genius to see the truth in your message. any honest unbiased person should be able to connect the dots here. I applaud your willingness to speak the truth that no one seems able or willing to speak. The constant barrage of misdirection and political football with our personal liberties has me just exhausted and sad. please continue to tell it like it is. I for one need the fresh air….

  • Flashy

    First rule in writing, don’t let emotion override reason and rational thought.

    “it is more than likely that the Oklahoma City bombing was a false flag attack designed to bolster Bill Clinton’s failing Presidency”

    “More than likely” … seriously? 168 lives, including 19 children under the age of 6, and injured more than 680 people. With available interviews and writings of Timothy Mcveigh, since rightfully snuffed, Terry Nichols (life sentence), Michael Fortier (turned state’s evidence and received 12 years) … “more than likely’ a false flag attack. I guess that would lead to the question why the FEMA camps, black UN helicopters, Eric Rudolphs bombing rampage of the Olympics, abortion clinics, black chruches and gay and lesbian bars, the War on Xmas etc etc weren’t also mentioned as “more than likely” flase flags. Jeesh …..

    “there are those who attempt to smear the Tea Party with baseless ad hominems and comparisons to the Taliban.”

    Actually, it isn’t an attempt. it is a fact. Many designate the actions and demands of the Tea party and Religious Right comparable to the Afghan taliban. There is much in similarity, little in difference. heck, read the posts of today. Change a few descriptive nouns … and it could have been sent out by the Taliban.
    A nation governed by the overall mores of a singular religion
    Disagreement withtheir program is wrong and criminal
    Current leadership is treasonous and should be jailed or shot as traitors
    Arming indiscriminately those citizenry friendly to their cause to protect and defend against “them” (anyone who disagrees)
    War on Women
    Voter suppression
    Voter intimidation
    Openly armed walking the streets and legislatures to intimidate

    Ummm..see any difference there?

    “the journey to where we now find ourselves: living in a police state engaged in perpetual war with a bloated, deficit-riddled, ever-growing government and in a time where Senators and Americans who oppose those policies are branded as extremists or potential terrorists.”

    Wow…and i suppose the virulent opposition when all this was coming down in the 00′s included the extremists and crazies of the right? Funny…i don’t recall any of the Right opposing any of this…Fact is, I distinctly recall they were in the forefront supporting these policies and demanding more of the same. Only when this administration came to office did the Right wing extremists become opposed to these polciies they previously were in total support of. Avoid responsibility for what they supported and intimidated opposition to, that is a trademark stance of the TP and extremists.

    ” It was opposition to Bush policies at the end of his term that sparked the growth of the Tea Party in the first place.”

    Baloney. Pure and utter turkey/chicken no beef baloney.

    Mr. livingston, you can twist and squirm and call it everything and anythig you desire. you can swear up and down it’s everyone else’s fault but the right wing extremists. you can proclaim that it’s the TP and extremists who are being denigrated and are as pure as the driven snow. You can do all that and more. But you can’t change reality….

    • Alex

      I believe that Stephen Colbert proclaimed REALITY to have a “well-known Liberal bias”…

      • Flashy

        Yeah…facts and reality always get in the way of a good rant ….

      • independent thinker

        Was Oklahoma City a false flag? i have seen evidence presented that shows it was and evidence presented that disproves it. But putting that aside if you think (as you seem to) that our government is not capable of doing that you are the most uninformed individual posting here. It has been proven time and again the government will use the citizens of the US for its own purposes without any concern for their safty and well being. One example: deliberately exposing army troups to dangerous doses of radation without their knowledge. Another example: Knowingly using southern blacks in venerial disease experiments without the knowledge or permission of the test subjects. One other example out of the many: Knowingly exposing volunteers to dangerous levels of mind altering drugs without their knowledge in mind control experiments.

    • sandcasstle13@yahoo.com

      Flushee, don’t talk about “reality” until you get at least one dose in you.

      • Chester

        Sandcasstle, from my own experience, Flashy has it a lot nearer right in this case than Mr. Livingston and all the rest of the EXTREME right wingers. Truth be known, if things had been done the way he wants, I would have the same problem I would have if the EXTREME left had their way, I would no longer exist, or I would be buried so deep in some prison some place I could only see the sun when someone ran a pipeline in to me. Without getting into the fine points, let me say that I am an unprotected minority according to both the ACLU AND the SPLC.

      • Vicki

        Chester writes:
        “Without getting into the fine points, let me say that I am an unprotected minority according to both the ACLU AND the SPLC.”

        And they are both wrong as the entirety of the Constitution is designed to protect the minority (all the way down to a minority of 1). Of course this presumes that you are living in a world where there is anyone in government willing to do their duty and support the US Constitution. Unless they owe allegiance to something else.

    • jdn

      Did you speak at Chavez’s funeral ? I bet you brought a tear to the eyes of his supporters in the US and Cuba .

    • http://jmcgraphicdesignworks.wordpress.com jcfromdc

      “First, get the facts straight, then twist them as you lease.” ~ Mark Twain (ahem)

    • Butch

      Fact is, Flash in the pan, that YOU are more Taliban like than any Tea Partier could ever hope to be. A Tea Partier wants govt OUT of their lives. Libtards like you and our govt want to impose your bigoted, hypocritical views on society, JUST LIKE the Taliban. Look how good of a job govt and Libtards have done so far. And Holder WAS involved in the Oklahoma City false flag, genius. http://silencedogood2010.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/eric-holder-the-oklahoma-city-bombing-connection/ I hate POS like you, collaborating w/ the very people who are out to destroy you AND your nation and yr stupid azz couldn’t be happier. There’s a special place in Hell for people like you.

      • Flashy

        just as an aside butch…the ‘article’ you linked to stated Holder signed off on the explosives to McVeigh. let’s see if i have this correct. 1990′s. Holder is a minor functionary in DC. McVeigh is in…Ohio(?), the bombing is Oklahoma City, and the explosive used was fertilizer mixed with diesel.

        Hokayyyy….seems like a logical connection throughout to me

      • http://www.facebook.com/lisa.thompson.5688 Lisa Thompson

        You are sooo right!

      • http://www.facebook.com/lisa.thompson.5688 Lisa Thompson

        Butch, my reply about you being right was for you…not Flash in the pan

      • eddie47d

        Where was he right Lisa? Is Obama related to Caligula too or haven’t you gotten that far in rewriting history.

    • John

      Flashy, you have a twisted sense of reality. The globalist bankers run this country, our military, press, and government. George Bush jr., and his father, worked for the bankers against the American public, as does Barrack Obama. Tricky Dick Nixon, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter all have banker ties. It isn’t right versus left, it’s Globalists versus Americans. The Tea party is a response to the supposed “conservatives” like Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Mitch McConnel, and many others, who, work for these same globalists. Helping them steal our freedom and wealth. Enjoy your slavery!

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        The Tea Party is a distraction employed by the same globalists.

    • alpha-lemming

      All the typical false flags neatly lined up…. “war on women” (aka free everything), “voter suppresion” (fraud is becoming too difficult), “intimidation” (NBPs are good guys and licensed carriers should be feared), yadda yadda…..

      You (pretty ordinary un-spectacular commie…. or collectivist, progressive, lib-leftist or what ever pseudonym you’re using this decade), via your love filled posts, ARE the reason I fear your ilk. To listen to you, I’m a higher priority target for a “drone-drop” than any Islamo-terrorist.

    • Opal the Gem

      Flushy’s handlers must be paying him by the word today.

      • eddie47d

        Opal would be in the poor house then if she got paid by the word. At least try and say something rational. Oh heck just make it up (sarcastic remarks) like you always do.

  • nc

    Mr. Livingston., to attribute horrible incidents of mass murder to a group of people just because you didn’t like them before the incidents is being a little weird in the head! TO DO IT EVERYTIME SUGGESTS YOU NEED A QUIET VACATION AWAY FROM YOUR COMPUTER!
    You don’t need another column about the next “false flag”! What you need more is A COLUMN WITH some PROOF about the last ones you alleged!!! Something you could take to the courts according to our wonderful Constitution. Man, would that ever make you a hero among heroes!! Just once, Bob, just once!

    • Kevin Wickham

      Some, unfortuneatly cannot se the forest because of all the trees in the way

    • independent thinker

      nc like Flashy seems unable to acknowledge that our government is more than capable of doing something like that. See my reply to Flashy above.

      • nc

        Independent thinker, does a prior bad act mean all conjecture as to future acts MUST BE correct even IF YOUR ONLY “PROOF(?)” IS THAT OTHER PEOPLE AT OTHER
        TIMES DID BAD ACTS?
        Sounds a lot like the old Joe McCarthy conservartive red herring logic!

      • independent thinker

        nc I said the government was capable of doing such with proof but I did not say Oklahoma city WAS a false flag event.

    • Capitalist at Birth

      nc, Why don’t you leave and never come back?

      • eddie47d

        Have you bought your ticket to Chile yet Capitalist at Birth?

      • nc

        Cap., your invitation to “leave and never come back” tells me that my post have struck a nerve which is exactly why I am here! Let Mr. Livingston and your fellow knuckle draggers tell you how smart you are and scratch your back! That’s not my yob, mon as they say in the islands!

      • Karolyn

        Why does it bother you so much CAB? Is it that painful just to SEE the written word that disagrees with what you believe? Pretty thin-skinned to want to see liberal-leaning people banned if you ask me.

    • Vicki

      nc says:

      Mr. Livingston., to attribute horrible incidents of mass murder to a group of people just because you didn’t like them before the incidents is being a little weird in the head! ”

      Interesting point. Can you also explain why so many liberals attribute horrible incidents of mass murder to inanimate objects? Is it because they didn’t like the objects before the incidents or are they too just being a little weird in the head when they go out and advocate punishing the ~300 million Americans who didn’t commit mass murder?

  • Alex

    Eventually all of humanity will come to see ‘patriotism’ for what it is: a virus—a virus second only to religion in the number of deaths for which it is responsible.

    Respect for lines drawn across the Earth is a ridiculous notion. The feeling that your corner of the globe is more righteous, more important, or more deserving of God’s attention than another person’s corner is stupid. This is, after all, exactly what the Crips and the Bloods kill each other over—allegiance to myth bounded by lines found in the Thomas Bros.Guide.

    Always remember that the Soviet NKVD forces executing Polish officers in the Katyn Forest, the Nazi Einsatzgruppen SS dangling infants at bayonet’s end, and our own ‘heroic’ Marine jarheads raping schoolgirls and murdering them and their families were all being patriotic. Ask ‘em…..

    We must pray for and work to achieve a nation-less planet to which we all belong and of whose bounty we all share…

    • Hedgehog

      Alex: OVER MY DEAD BODY! It’s diversity that makes humanity great, not homogeneity!

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Was that a quippy, irrelevant non sequitur or were you in agreement
        with the author?

      • Hedgehog

        GALT: Because of the way this site is set up, I have to reply to you by talking to myself. No, I do not agree with Alex! He is obviously a believer in one world government, I am not. I am a Canadian, but if I were an American I would be a strict Constitutionalist. Your constitution is not perfect but (the original) is a damn good starting point. One world government by turning people into politically correct robots by force is not the way to go. Diversity is the name of the game. One size fits all medicine, government, religion, diet, etc., etc., simply does not work, and never will.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Your reference to ‘humanity” in response, which I imagine was as an
        attempt at brevity, introduced a bit of a paradox regarding the point
        you were attempting to convey.

        It seems to be inherent in both the understanding and use of the word “diversity”.

        We are, for all intents and purposes, the same species…..in terms of nature,
        we have not achieved “diversity”, for the variation of DNA has not achieved
        the point of “speciation”………where “homo sapiens” can no longer inter
        breed with other “homo sapiens”…….which is different than “beetles” ( linnean classification”) which have ( at last count ) over 19, 000 species.

        We are also social and as E.O.Wilson pointed out recently, quite possibly
        eusocial…….and we a stuck with it, myths of “rugged self, reliant individuals”
        aside.

        We have a far more flattering self image of ourselves than either nature or
        reality can support, and why not? Who is there to disagree with us?

        We have not done well, but then nature really doesn’t care, species rise and
        fall based on survival and reproduction and we reached out “biological
        evolutionary peak”, in these terms, 50, 000 years ago.

        We are still operating and behaving in accordance with that environment,
        because that it what our biology is tuned to……..both physically and
        intellectually. ( see The Human Zoo; Desmond Morris )

        This would be an explanation for your conclusion of

        “One size fits all medicine, government, religion, diet, etc., etc., simply
        does not work, and never will.”

        but it is not an argument against the claim of the “author” you are responding to;
        minus the anecdotal examples and rhetoric. ( yours and his )

        The “constitution” itself ( intended or otherwise ) must be viewed as just
        such an attempt to impose homogenization in certain aspects of human
        interaction………most importantly in terms of “EQUAL JUSTICE” regarding the
        things that do matter, and “tolerance” regarding the things that do not.

        To cite “patriotism”, or national sovereignty, as a point of division……and also
        capable of producing harm, is simply a re-statement of “your argument”
        with a more “ambitious” ending. ( or solution )

        Might be better to actually determine what the problem IS: rather than arguing
        about imaginary solutions expressed with certainty………or as your last post
        suggests……that there might not be one?

        ” He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past,
        controls the future. “

      • Bob666

        Yo Hog,
        I would agree.

    • SFS444

      They were socialists and globalists just like you obviously are. You need to be led, you need a puppeteer. That is because you have not developed your common sense or waken up yet. Maybe you’ve led a sheltered life, maybe its not your fault. But, I refuse to die because of your ignorance. Obviously you’ve never been in the service or you’d realize that you are just another idiot spewing what hes been spoon fed by the media or dumb liberal proffessor. If you were an animal you’d be cow or any other type of cattle.

      • Alex

        Yes—I am obviously far too intelligent to be so stupid as to sign on as another hitman in our mercenary, baby-killing military!

      • eddie47d

        SFS444; For decades our military are the Globalists who work for the Military Industrial Complex. It has come to the point where they will defend the Halliburton’s and Chevrons before the Constitution. Your insults will not change that fact.

      • WILDFIRE

        @alex – That baby killing military you speak of is lead by your master and King Obama.

      • eddie47d

        If Obama is King of war then Reagan must have led the whole royal parade. Even Johnson,Nixon and Bush have him beat by a wide margin.

    • Johnny D

      Alex your opinion is complete hogwash. You can kiss my patriotic rear end.

    • John

      Alex, your ignorance is represented by your opinions. Hitler was funded by the Rothschilds, who also funded Lenin/Stalin in Russia. In fact, Adolf Hitler (Schicklegruber), was the illegitmate grandson of Mayer Rothschild, founder of the hegemony. Our military does not work for us. It works for these same “Globalists” you love so dearly. The damage these people have done to humanity for their own profit is reprehensible. Your education leaves much to be desired.
      Enjoy the slavery your goals will bring to all of us!

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Alex the Anal Orifice says, “Always remember that the Soviet NKVD forces executing Polish officers in the Katyn Forest, the Nazi Einsatzgruppen SS dangling infants at bayonet’s end, and our own ‘heroic’ Marine jarheads raping schoolgirls and murdering them and their families were all being patriotic. Ask ‘em…..”

      OK Alex aka Anal Orifice I’m asking—-tell us all about “our own ‘heroic’ Marine jarheads raping schoolgirls”, etc., etc.—-got a link or two to share?—– and also tell us where you get off mentioning the NKVD and the SS in the same sentence with the USMC?

      Alex sort of answers that for us later with, “Yes—I am obviously far too intelligent to be so stupid as to sign on as another hitman in our mercenary, baby-killing military!”, thereby strengthening the impression that he is just an unpatriotic Anal Orifice who has no “standing” to be talking about anything much on this site, never mind posing as an “intellectual” who dares to sniff down his nose at the rest of us.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        RBT before you jump down Alex’s throat, you might want to consider
        the “facts”………see “Kill Everything That Moves”…….which is posted in
        another thread…….simple search will get you there.

        You seem to be right regarding O Manual…….I have constructed a “serial reply”,
        which should deal with him….in a similar manner to that of DavidH.

        Charlie seems to think that my equations are wrong…..that should be fun,
        provided this thread makes the weekend cut.

        Until next time………

      • Charlie

        GALT,,,
        You have some faults ,,,The Bible is written in some codes and in some plain words…Your equation IS NOT written properly per “Math” language … BUT,,,we can forgive you , since most El Toro Dung writers make things up to appear smarter………………Meanwhile………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Sorry, GALT

        I searched “Kill Everything That Moves” and found a bunch of stuff relating to water purity mainly. I looked at a couple of the articles that might have relevance but couldn’t find anything. Could you point me more closely to one of them? I DO have a problem with the NKVD, the SS, and the USMC being spoken of in this way.

        “You seem to be right regarding O Manual…….I have constructed a “serial reply”,
        which should deal with him….in a similar manner to that of DavidH”.

        I saw that and it appears to have tired him some. I fear that omanuel will be a tougher nut to crack than DaveH, although Dave WAS formidable. omanuel is a “crazy old guy”, and they’re the worst.

        “Charlie seems to think that my equations are wrong…..that should be fun,
        provided this thread makes the weekend cut”

        Yep, Charlie is fun—-I think he has you trapped now that he is talking about the bible and “proper math language” in the same breath. And don’t you love the “El Toro Dung writers” thing? Such cleverness!

      • Kevin

        You Gotta stop poking the Pseudo-Christian. He has proclaimed himself a Modern Day Prophet. You should encourage him to Peak In his Enlightenment and thus Ascend up to heaven on a Cloud. Which is the only way I assume that a person can be rid of Him.

  • dan

    It’s almost as if being the descendants of rum running profiteers , and land pirates that
    delivered us into the bondage of the money changers wasn’t a good thing…
    I’d venture that we weren’t so much hi-jacked as predisposed with human nature.

    • John

      You must be related to a Kennedy. None of my ancestors were rum runners. They were horse thieves!

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        I don’t think the Kennedy’s did rum either, but he could be an Astor,
        or a Hancock, or an Adams, or a……

      • dan

        actually,it WAS the Kennedy’s…but only by marraige

  • Mike Cain

    Jeremy,

    What you fail to realize is that when government makes programs it should not, and controls areas of our lives that it should not as governed by our Constitution, it violates our first freedoms and liberty. When men then say government is “wrong” or “inherently evil” they are actually correct. I think others may have deceived you in this regard. As Americans we have an obligation to stand against this growth of government, aptly called Tyranny (Look it up in Websters.)

    Whenever government enacts a program, there are always those who benefit and those who lose benefit, that is loss of liberty. While sometimes this is necessary, I would challenge anyone to explain to me how this massive government we now have can in any way be justified. While Robin Hood is a nice concept, the idea that people more powerful than me can take my children, money and possessions scares me, and it should you too.

    The only way to stop this is to limit the government to constitutional issues:

    Common defense
    Promote commerce (welfare) by judicious issuance of currency and trade infrastructure, which by nature:
    Secure liberty for ALL men.

    So when the government promotes Welfare, food stamps, child support and the like it does so unjustly, destroying the moral fiber of the country in the process When it regulates milk or corn or guns, and supports some companies while penalizing others, this is tyranny, and MUST be stopped with ALL effort.

    In my opinion Rand and others are only now beginning to say the constitutionally correct things, but the uneducated populace is not even able to comprehend let alone support their actions. Our “mob state” only wants what they can get from the government, taken from those of us who still have the ethics of work and justice from our forefathers. We have finally reached deToquevilles tipping point where “The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Welcome to the end of democracy:

    “Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.” De Toqueville.

    • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

      To which “constitution” are you referring…….the one you “believe” exists,
      or the one that is actually in FORCE?

      http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/freeman/freeman4.htm

      Reality does not concern itself with what you “believe” to be true.

    • Jeremy Leochner

      Mike I can respect your position. I would say this:

      1: There is a disagreement as to what programs the government should not create and where they should not involve themselves. The founders knew little of corporations. They could not have foreseen the types of lobbyists that now exist. Nor could they have foreseen the true effects of the industrial revolution on society. The government has to play a role in the private sector. As to our private lives I try to find some sort of balance. I think Bloomberg in New York has created a terrible nanny state which is far too big. We need to avoid that. But we also need to avoid the other extreme where government itself is seen as evil. Government is not the problem. And smaller government is not the solution. Better government is better. That government which governs best governs best.

      2: I do not support a Robin Hood mentality. Taxes are not stealing from the rich to give to the poor. They are the difficulties that come with a social contract. And in the end we all benefit in some form or another.

      3: I can agree on those functions of government Mike. But how can a small and impotent government “Secure liberty for ALL men.”

      4: Regulating companies is not tyranny. Nor is providing welfare to people who need it. Countless people not least of whom Paul Ryan have received some form of aid from government. That aid did not turn them into “takers”. It freed them up to pursue happiness and develop their lives.

      5: Giving help to the poor and under privileged does not equal bribing the public with the publics money. People have become apathetic and assumed their government cannot be held accountable. That is my problem with people like Rand Paul. The more you push the idea that government is bad and can never work the more difficult it becomes to improve government or to run it.

      6: I do not support socialism. I support social democracy. It involves maintaining democratic systems while allowing for some regulation via the government. Regulation does not equal repression. Government does not equal big government. And less government does not equal better government.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Social Democracy, is very similar to NAZZI Germany’s Fascist Democratic Dictatorship. So you admit to your totalitarian desires?

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Actually Capitalist- Nazi Germany was founded on ideas of fascism not social democracy. As a matter of fact the Social Democratic Party of Germany voted unanimously against the Enabling Act which granted Hitler absolute power. So in actuality Social Democrats are just as opposed to totalitarianism as you are.

        Here is a better definition of what Social Democracy is:

        Political ideology that advocates a peaceful, evolutionary transition of society from capitalism to socialism, using established political processes. It rejects Marxism’s advocacy of social revolution. Social democracy began as a political movement in Germany in the 1870s. Eduard Bernstein argued (1899) that capitalism was overcoming many of the weaknesses Karl Marx had seen in it (including unemployment and overproduction) and that universal suffrage would lead peacefully to a socialist government. After 1945, social-democratic governments came to power in West Germany (see Social Democratic Party), Sweden, and Britain (under the Labour Party). Social-democratic thought gradually came to regard state regulation (without state ownership) as sufficient to ensure economic growth and a fair distribution of income.

      • eddie47d

        Capitalist at Birth; Totalitarians can also be Fascists and Capitalists. That has also been experienced in America.

  • SFS444

    This organization that might have served a good purpose once is one of the many that have gone very bad with the help of the government and infiltration by people who did not beleive in their cause but wanted their use a cover. This organization is a sham now and it is a socialistic oriented agency. They demonize anyone who questions the government under the guise of helping the helpless. In truth, they are just another hijacked pawn who appeases the government by declaring freedom oriented Americans as extremists. They are actually advancing the decay our Republic and the agenda of those of real extremists such as the National Socialist Movement and the Muslin Brotherhood and Aztlan, there are others too. Whether by design or just naive people being strung along by handlers, this center is indirectly serving the purpose of theses terroristic, violent and disgusting organizations made up of psychopaths and monster’s. Don’t pay attention to what they say it only means you are on the right course and they have set out to diviate you. Stay the course and be ready to defend this Republic just as our founding fathers did. They wereonce demonize d too for wanting freedom from a puppeteer, the English king.

    • eddie47d

      SFS444; The national socialist movement aka neo nazi’s are right wing hooligans and yes the SPLC exposes them all the time. By anyone’s definition they are extremists and racists who hang on to every word that that far right spews out. Wade Page the Oak Creek killer was one of many who advocated for violence and played out the fantasies perpetuated by the so called “patriot” movement. I’m not sure why these groups aren’t denounced instead of those on the right coyly encouraging them. The National Vanguard is one such group whom openly desires a race war. Let’s make it clear that the SPLC also lists the NEW Black Panthers as a fringe group and capable of causing trouble. They go after anyone using underhanded tactics to achieve their goal including Muslim extremists.

      • speedle

        Ed, not to address all your drivel but please try to get this “right”. Hitler and his movement were “Socialists” and Statists. Regardless of your educational training on the definition of “Right Wing”, you need to get coached up a bit on reality. You need to understand that today’s Conservative/Libertarian movement is based on the premise of “Individual Liberty”. This cornerstone belief is 180 degrees opposite of Hitler’s Nazi beliefs. If you want to make comparisons the actions current regime are much much closer to the Nazi and Stalinist belief systems than the “Right Wingers”. Get it right Ed. This is 2013.

      • eddie47d

        Until the Conservative movements openly denounce the militias,neo-Nazi’s, Sovereign Citizens who advocated criminal activities then you don’t have a leg to stand on Speedle. They hold the SAME beliefs that are stated here on a daily basis so they are part and parcel. Besides Hitler was hardly a socialist and never a Liberal. Maybe you are the one who should attempt to get it right in the year 2013! Like you Hitler hated homosexuals,real Socialists,union workers and so forth. Like Earth’s comment below a few of you still blame the Jew.

      • speedle

        You’re fishing Eddie. You say “Neo Nazis” and “Militias” (whatever that actually means) always vote conservative. Firstly, that is simply wrong, and you have no evidence to back it up. I doubt if these nut bags vote at all. On the other hand we can certainly attest that Black Panthers and Anarchists are very much involved in the democrat electorate as evidenced by the “help” the panthers donate at the polling sites, and the mutual admiration between Obama and the “Occupy” gangs (read: anarchists).

        Also, conservatives constantly denounce skin heads and Nazis. They just don’t do it on the Huffington Post (which is your news source). And Hitler was “absolutely” a socialist, and your comment to the contrary makes me wonder if you even know the proper definition. Did you say something about “Jews”, as in the Israelis that have been ignored and abused by the Obama administration? Is that what you said?

  • Earth

    Hijacked by a foreign power, America crumbles into ruin

    Written by: John Kaminski Published in: John Kaminski

    As their nation disintegrates from a controlled financial demolition, engineered environmental disasters, and medical malpractice that has needlessly cost the lives of millions, the debilitated residents of the United States — perhaps too late to save themselves — are painfully waking up to realize their country has been taken over by a foreign power.

    Their fortunes stolen by corrupt profiteers, their minds rotted by behavioral deceptions, and their children condemned to perpetual wars that never needed to happen, the shellshocked citizens of what was formerly known as the greatest country on Earth now face extermination and ruin because of the very lies they have been persuaded to accept.

    Their health poisoned by toxic medications, their property stolen by swindles that become illegal laws, and their futures erased by harmful addictions perceived as their own desires, the imminent destruction of America presages a worldwide catastrophe already well under way that foreshadows the extinction of all natural life on this planet.

    As the trees turn brown and the oceans congeal into toxic jelly, the blame for this unprecedented cataclysmic crisis in all its myriad manifestations inevitably tracks to the same source — the people who control the money and continue to poison everything they touch.

    The United States of America has not been run by Americans for a very long time, if ever.

    A half-black Jew who changed his name to Alexander Hamilton derailed the experiment in participatory democracy at the very birth of the American republic. Chief aide to George Washington during the Revolutionary War, it was Hamilton who spearheaded the creation of a central bank that forever would prevent freedom-seeking European colonists from achieving their idealistic goals of liberty and happiness.

    A little more than a century later, the mass influx of Russian Jews disingenuously claiming persecution in their homeland descended on the USA by the millions, and through their corruption of the political process and the imposition of a colossal scam that allowed them to charge Americans for their own money, began the downward slide into deception and disease from which the U.S. would never recover.

    This same strategy today of uncontrolled immigration has collapsed a functional American infrastructure into a meaningless morass of overburdened social services that has changed the very ethos of the USA from principled self-reliance into a degraded dependence on free lunches and stealthy swindling that has left the populace suffocating from its own corrupt opportunism.

    Every day at any hour, you can prove to yourself that America is not run by Americans just by watching television, or searching in any medium for any meaningful explanation of how the great experiment in democracy has been destroyed. You won’t find it. You will only find advertisements for needless products of dubious value and deliberately misleading statements about what is actually happening to you.

    All propagated by the same cynical source, the same insincere voices passionate in their advocacy of the very policies that have destroyed everything humans have ever held dear.

    Jewish TV networks, Jewish Hollywood, Jewish magazines, Jewish control of Congress, the White House and the Supreme Court, Jewish control of universities and the American Federation of Teachers, Jewish control of the American Medical Association and the American Bar Association, American cops training to kill in Israel, everyone in America being afraid to speak out about Jews for fear of losing their jobs, AIPAC and the ADL advocating prison terms for those who protest Israel’s continuing crimes against humanity, Christian denominations worried about their tax-exempt status fearful of commenting on Jewish atrocities, Monsanto (once slave traders, then weapons makers, and now in control of world’s food supply) peddling poisons, and Jewish control of the Internet through Google, Wikipedia and control of the chokepoints of ISPs and wireless networks — all conspire to terrify the American populace into fearful silence even as they are being sickened and terminated by this twisted Talmudic terror.

    The bogus bogeyman of terrorism constantly seared into American consciousness by hysterical kosher commentators demanding citizens give up their freedoms in exchange for security that benefits no one except the very rich was — in fact — actually created by the very same psychopaths who devise and deploy the hired enemies, and profit from their weapons contracts as they maim and murder gullible goyim victims all over the world.

    And still, the vast majority of Americans, deluded by their drugged dreams, refuse to name their own killers, even as they slowly die their unnecessary and premature deaths, or mistakenly blame some group of fellow victims as the cause of their demise.

    The world’s science establishment has been cowed into subservience by the financial tricks that limit the scope of their thinking and misdirect their investigations.

    The world’s artists — particularly songwriters — are intimidated into silence about the real culprits as they create the false lyrics to our morose predicament and bask in the misguided adulation of their own learning-disabled groupies.

    Everybody in the world is coerced into betraying their own principles in order to make the almighty buck, never fully realizing that this is the very cause of society’s terminal disease.

    Meanwhile, the Jews sit back and count the money they have stolen from both sides of every conflict — conflicts they have conceived, fomented and profited mightily from the disease and death they have caused.

    Even at this late date, America’s so-called intellegensia refuse to factor in the Jewish problem as the core reason for virtually all of society’s ailments, lest they jeopardize their professional reputations and personal profits.

    And in apprehensive silence, they watch with their fingers fruitlessly crossed as the Talmudic formula for conscienceless rape and pillage strangles the American dream into its final chapter of permanent unconsciousness, and endless, silent night.

    https://therebel.org/blog/item/4079-hijacked-by-a-foreign-power-america-crumbles-into-ruin

    http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/Hijacked-by-a-foreign-power-America-crumbles-into-ruin.shtml

    • SFS444

      And this folks is one person not helping the consetvative movement. What are a member of the NSM, skin head, muslim…whatever your psycopathic mind acknowledges or responds too, aren’t you happy with this organization? I mean they are advancing your warped agendas already. Disgusting socialist, infiltrating honest movements. Get your jew hating propaganda on another sight, we have enough with this administration.

      • Oneguess

        The last sentence of your post tells it all. Well posted. Thank you.

    • http://basque2222@gmail.com Mel Laraway

      Earth, that was quite a long – winded declamation that you issued.

      One would think that one of the many deranged Mullahs of the Islamic faith had fabricated your broadside; the Ayatollah Khomeini, Osama bin Laden, all admirers of Adolph Hitler, had the very same deranged ideas about the “devilish Jews” and their “nefarious totalitarian designs” on all of us “goys”.

      The bitter truth is, though, that Islam is at war with all of the Kuffar world, and has been since the days of Muhammad, and they are winning by violent and stealth jihad, taqiyya, kitman, and campaigns of da’wa. The current Administration is penetrated by members of the Muslim Brotherhood, and our current Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense are clueless about sharia law and its stealthy insinuation into our country. Our President keeps apologizing to Muslim leaders and keeps on shoveling money to Afghanistan, Egypt, pakistan and numerous other haters of America. The ultimate goal of Islam is to impose sharia law on this country and every other in the world so that Islam reigns supreme, and they are having great success.

      You are barking up the wrong tree, bud!

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Aaaaarghh! Earth started out fine—-the first few sentences looked to be the start of a good rant against the plutocracy and corporate fascists, and he was paying particular attention to the environment.

      Then—-DISASTER—-Earth proves himself to be an anti-semite and Jew-hater of the worst kind and destroys what little credibility he had started to build. Go away, Earth—-it’s bad enough that we have to listen to all the racist BS on this site—you add NOTHING of value with this horsepucky. Go look in your skinhead comic books instead, and fantasize about your next racist or anti-semitic tattoo—-leave us in peace.

      • Charlie

        R B T,,,
        God Loves,,,BUT,,,He also Hates,,,will it be OK with you IF,,,I hate what God Hates???
        Also could you give us the 3 definitions in The Bible , of the word “Jew”???
        Now this info could be in your left brain,,,are you able ??????????????

      • Kevin

        God Hates??????? Please show me this. I am not a christian but I have read the Bible several times and I never heard Jesus…. (you know the son of god)…… say anything about hate. and before you dredge up some old testament reference remember that Jesus fulfilled the old testament. Vengeful god does not equate to Hateful god… those are human attributes.

      • Bob666

        Yo Kevin,
        Well put, Humans hate, Jesus loved. But, we do see humans on this site preach hate in the name of god and that is sad.

      • Charlie

        Kevin,,et al,,
        Since R B T can’t access his left brain,,, We’ll give you some Scriptures to show “”Hate”"”,,,BUT,,,what level of hate do you want to see???
        Start off with a “”Curse”",,,what is a curse??? it is a “”"Judgment”"”for some “”Sin”"… Sin is transgression of one or more of God’s Laws … When Adam and Eve and the snake were “Cursed” at Genesis 3:13–24… Was that The Favor of God? OR? ,,, a Training form of Harsh Love??? What did King Jesus say about “Love” at John 14:15 ? “If you Love Me, you will keep My Commandments”"… Well? what if one Does Not obey King Jesus???
        OK,..check out what King Jesus said at Luke 19:27,,, is that a statement of Love or Hate???
        Do you have a Concordance??? The word “Hate”is in The Bible, from Genesis to Revelations… BUT,,, the word “Love” is in The Bible a lot more than “Hate”… BUT? does that delete Hate??? NO!,,, SO?,,, God is a God of Love , BUT,,,He can and does “Hate” some things and some people,.,FOR,,, His reasons…. Accomplish Acts 2:38 properly and Lawfully and you may receive The benefits of The Greatest action of Love ,God and His Son , King Jesus Christ ever did for His People… Meanwhile………………………………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

      • Kevin

        I disagree with your interpretations. you are of course free to believe what you like.
        Luke 6:27-36
        “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. …
        Proverbs 26:24-26
        Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart; when he speaks graciously, believe him not, for there are seven abominations in his heart; though his hatred be covered with deception, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
        Matthew 5:43-45
        “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
        1 John 2:11
        But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
        1 John 4:20
        If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen

      • cawmun cents

        Mocking others for trying to talk to you about a good thing they have discovered,while attempting to use words by (eisegesis) to make their words of challenge mean less is what I would call true hatred.
        Not that I think you can ever understand these things because you cannot know what you refuse to see.But when someone gives you a gift,and you refuse to take it then turn and hurl your perceptions upon them in an effort to seem as if you know more than they do,who then does actually appear to harbor hatred?
        If God wanted to give you a gift and you refused it,then turned and hurled insults at His chosen children,spitefully attacking them using His words to do so,then you dont think that might inspire hatred for you,by Him?
        If someone did that to you would you not hate them?
        But you are right to say that He does not hate you.He likely despises your actions,but doesnt hold them against you personally.He knows that you are willfully ignorant and He has been very patient with you,despite that knowledge.
        But if you continue to be willfuly ignorant and He has a set of standards by which He must make a judgement call when all is said and done,then you have in effect made the bed you must sleep in.
        When Charlie calls your attention to this,you think that high-minded argument,and turning the Word of God against him acts in your favor huh?
        It only serves to show that arrogance and ignorance skip down the path together and both reside inside of you.That is not my attempt at insult,rather it is my opine and observation.I don not think mocking an individual who would like to share good news with you is the best ploy for wishing to be sen as intelligent.
        But what do I know?
        Apparently very little……
        Cheers!
        -CC.

      • Kevin

        Cawmun….. If Posting scripture is “Mocking” then I am guilty. I am wondering what ‘Good Thing” it is that you are referring to??? The part where Charlie proclaims that “GOD HATES” ….. you write……(((“Mocking others for trying to talk to you about a good thing they have discovered,while attempting to use words by (eisegesis) to make their words of challenge mean less is what I would call true hatred)))…… so now the scripture that I posted has been transformed Magically into “True Hate”?????
        You State that I am right and that God does not Hate but he merely Despises Is another False statement on Par with charlies God Hates comment.
        And for the record…. you do not speak for God Cawmun…… you do not know the mind of God………………Example……(((((But you are right to say that He does not hate you.He likely despises your actions,but doesnt hold them against you personally.He knows that you are willfully ignorant and He has been very patient with you,despite that knowledge.
        But if you continue to be willfuly ignorant and He has a set of standards by which He must make a judgement call when all is said and done,then you have in effect made the bed you must sleep in))))))).
        So you are now Gods Mouth piece?
        Charlie has proclaimed himself to be a Modern Day Prophet. His words Not mine. I do not believe this is remotely possible. Charlie has proven by his posts in his own words that he may have Read the Bible…. but he has not understood its Message.
        Your additional comments directed at me are Unfounded and Misguided. I wish you well.

    • Kevin

      Cawmun….. If Posting scripture is “Mocking” then I am guilty. I am wondering what ‘Good Thing” it is that you are referring to??? The part where Charlie proclaims that “GOD HATES” ….. you write……(((“Mocking others for trying to talk to you about a good thing they have discovered,while attempting to use words by (eisegesis) to make their words of challenge mean less is what I would call true hatred)))…… so now the scripture that I posted has been transformed Magically into “True Hate”?????
      You State that I am right and that God does not Hate but he merely Despises Is another False statement on Par with charlies God Hates comment.
      And for the record…. you do not speak for God Cawmun…… you do not know the mind of God………………Example……(((((But you are right to say that He does not hate you.He likely despises your actions,but doesnt hold them against you personally.He knows that you are willfully ignorant and He has been very patient with you,despite that knowledge.
      But if you continue to be willfuly ignorant and He has a set of standards by which He must make a judgement call when all is said and done,then you have in effect made the bed you must sleep in))))))).
      So you are now Gods Mouth piece?
      Charlie has proclaimed himself to be a Modern Day Prophet. His words Not mine. I do not believe this is remotely possible. Charlie has proven by his posts in his own words that he may have Read the Bible…. but he has not understood its Message.
      Your additional comments directed at me are Unfounded and Misguided. I wish you well.

      • Charlie

        Kevin,,,nitwit Sunday School dropout,,,
        What did God say at Malachi 1:3??? does “”Hate”" mean hate???or what’s your interpretation ??? maybe that’s a new way to spell love……..hahanhahanhahahha…………

      • Kevin

        I forgive you charlie

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Kevin,

        You have posted the same link dozens of times in the same article. If you continue to spam the site you will be placed in moderation.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • Kevin

        My apoligize Mr Livingston. Noted.

      • Kevin

        Correction. apologies…

      • Kevin

        Also for future reference. I will be Posting this link in response to any more Replies to my postings from “charlie” as actual conversation seems an Impossibility with Him. If this is not acceptable to you please let me know.

    • Kevin

      I forgive you Charlie. Good luck.

      • Charlie

        Kevin,,,
        Luck is odds ,,,mine is Blessings,,,spam all you want to as far as We are concerned,,,but,,,you might expose your ignorance more ……………………………..

      • Bob666

        Charlie,
        As my day use to say; it takes two to tango and you appear to be leading.

      • Kevin

        I am finding a lot of evidence that links White supremest Anti Semites to Repressed Homosexuality Wow !!!! this is beginning to make sense now.

      • Bob666

        So Kevin,
        Sounds like you are connecting dots that you never knew that existed? And who would think that old Charlie could help you in the process?

        See, the Lord does work in mysterious ways!

      • Kevin

        I know right??? I’m starting to think that maybe the reason he keeps poking at me is because he actually wants to poke me. (Disturbing) I guess we will have to wait and see if his crush on me continues.

      • Bob666

        Yo Kevin,
        The “Homo Nerds” thing may have been a slip. It’s strange how many of these bible folks seem to be obsessed with he sex lives of everyone they encounter. There might just be some repressed people that we are dealing with.

      • Kevin

        Its the only thing that makes sense to me. Or they are so insecure about what they claim to believe that they must Rail against any and all descent. I am open to Honest expression of ones Belief and to the discussion/ debate of such. but I am so very Tired of the “Morally Superior” Self conscious/ low self Image Individuals roaming the Isles looking for a fight so as to prop themselves up… wherever I go. I assume this is my Cross to Bear.

  • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

    The problem when you employ rhetoric to persuade or provoke and
    neglect logos in favor of ethos and pathos, you run several risks.

    Such appeals are directed at inflaming passions and citing common cause
    or interest and in doing so, they must be directed at the least common
    denominator, the baser instincts and NOT the intellect…….to arouse the
    mob, yields a mob……whose passion must now be focused, and this is done
    by simplifying the means by which one identifies the “offender” of the
    “common cause”.

    To manipulate in this manner risks having the same tactics employed
    against you………an appeal to a common cause, is not the same as
    an appeal to a “just cause”………..and an aroused mob, is not a reliable
    conveyor or instrument of a “just cause”.

    Appeals to intellect are rare…..I shall leave it to the reader to determine
    why this is true, but that it is true is undeniable. So what we are left with
    is a constant barrage of rhetoric designed to “manipulate”……..and a
    public which is primed for it………

    Those that have been manipulated are easily recognized……for all they
    can do when challenged, is repeat the rhetoric by which they have been
    persuaded, if they can manage that………..mostly what they do manage
    is the repetition of the “indentifier’s” by which the “offender of the common
    cause” has been labeled with, after all…..if it’s good enough for them……?

    This is the chaotic morass of the history of civilization. It has not
    changed, nor will it…….for history plays its own trick on us……from a
    distance, it appears ordered and even logical…….but it has never been
    that nor will it be……….and that is another means by which “manipulation”
    can be achieved, even though every day living is beset will all manner
    of disruptions which defy our best efforts to anticipate them, to plan, etc.

    How is it then, that we are so readily convinced by ordered and logical
    presentations of history, which our own experiences tell us can not possibly
    be TRUE?

    If we are the constant subjects of attempted “manipulation”, as intelligent
    people should not our first order of business be to question for what
    purpose this manipulation is being attempted?

    Mr. Livingston’s piece ends with a reference to “history” and cites people
    commonly referred to as “patriots”……..over time and distance.

    Here is a quote from one of those people…….

    “if it be the Design of Providence to extirpate these Savages in order to make room for Cultivators of the Earth, it seems not improbable that Rum may be the appointed means. It has already annihilated all the Tribes who formally inhabited the Sea-Coast.”

    Ah, the lessons of history………..

    • Kevin

      Liked your piece.
      Here is another Quote….
      “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”…..Abe Lincoln. it seems that History is filled with unsavory characters.

  • Jeremy Leochner

    It is wrong to label people with differing views as terrorists. Terrorists are violent murderers who advocate the complete collapse of society so they can push their own personal agenda. I do not think Libertarians fall anywhere near that category.

    As to the Patriot Movement I have little knowledge. I will focus on the names mentioned in this article. If the people Mr. Livingston mentioned represent the Patriot Movement then I am some what concerned. People like Rand Paul and Joseph Farah have spent much time and effort attacking the government. The argument which they have pushed is not one of more responsible or accountable government. It is not one of making government smaller and returning to its proper status of being of, by and for the people. Instead the argument that they have pushed is one where the federal government is inherently evil and that those who disagree with them on that principle are big government fanatics. Personally I do not take people like Rand Paul to be shining examples of Libertarians or Conservatives.

    It is wrong to disparage someone for adhering to a particular ideology such as liberalism or conservatism. If the Southern Poverty Law Center has done so I would disagree with them. No ones political ideology determines who they are. You have to judge people on their actions. Not their political labels.

    • Harold Olsen

      “Personally I do not take people like Rand Paul to be shining examples of Libertarians or Conservatives.”

      I most definitely agree with you on that!

    • Vigilant

      “Instead the argument that they have pushed is one where the federal government is inherently evil…”

      “The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.”

      Thomas Jefferson

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Government is not the enemy. Corrupt government is. Bad government is. Incompetent government is. Unaccountable government is. Ineffective government is. But government in and of itself is not evil. Declaration of Independence: “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men”

        What matters is actions and choices. It is not government that should be judged but the people who make it up. It is not the government but the laws it puts forth that should be judged. That government which governs best governs best. That government which governs lest simply does not govern.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        All these tiresome quotes from old dead white guys—-and so carefully cherry picked to make some point that the writer can’t make for us in his own words.

        I will trump all with a quote from the immortal Pogo”

        “We have met the enemy and he is us!” Top that one, Vig!

      • TML

        Jeremy Leochner says “Instead the argument that they have pushed is one where the federal government is inherently evil…” “

        Jeremy Leochner says “Government is not the enemy. Corrupt government is. Bad government is. Incompetent government is. Unaccountable government is. Ineffective government is. But government in and of itself is not evil. Declaration of Independence: “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men””

        Here’s another one from some old dead white guy… “Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”

      • Vigilant

        “All these tiresome quotes from old dead white guys—-and so carefully cherry picked to make some point that the writer can’t make for us in his own words.”

        Well, well, and I thought we had a truce. Guess your pure ad hominem is the manner you choose to argue. Fine. You add nothing meaningful to the discussion.

        I require no quotes from great men unless they said it with an elegance and succinctness I would not deign to second guess. If you want quotes from the Founders regarding the innate dangers of government, consult the Federalist Papers, their personal writings and speeches. Their grasp of history ran circles around yours.

        Such disdain for the Founders with the cliché of “old dead white guys’ is typical of the committed leftists such as you. The enemy is you, my friend.

        “Dead white European males” was the term I was accustomed to hearing from the sophomoric utterances of the “Make love not war” idiots of the 60s. Seems that growing older is no guarantee of wisdom.

        “Dead,” as if only the philosophies of the living are to be considered relevant to the problems of the age.

        “White,” as if your racist squint deems only the opinions of a multicultural plenipotentiary committee to be worthy of consideration.

        “European,” as if it wasn’t the Enlightenment that produced the most progressive and humane framework for government in the history of the world.

        “Males,” as if their gender wasn’t capable of recognizing that individual sovereignty was and still is the highest ideal of human existence.

        RBT, the pioneers of the sciences you worship were largely dead white European males. Darwin was one; does that invalidate evolution? Are the advances of Newton, Einstein, et. al., to be discarded because they are “old dead white guys?” Only by your reckoning, apparently.

        I once thought you had some proficiency in the cognitive area. Your “old dead white guys” brickbat of a comment now impels me to conclude that you are just one more paid shill for the left.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        TML you helped prove my point. It isn’t absolute black and white government is good or government is bad. There were different quotes expressing different views of the nature and purpose of government. Government like the people in it has both good and evil. Its about trying to bring out the good and contain and deal with the evil that matters.

      • TML

        Jeremy Leochner says “TML you helped prove my point. It isn’t absolute black and white government is good or government is bad. There were different quotes expressing different views of the nature and purpose of government. Government like the people in it has both good and evil. Its about trying to bring out the good and contain and deal with the evil that matters.”

        Ah, but you help prove the point that I believe Vigilant was trying to make by posting a quote from that old dead white guy in response to your comment about Rand, ““Instead the argument that they have pushed is one where the federal government is inherently evil…”

        You now respond, “…Government like the people in it has both good and evil. Its about trying to bring out the good and contain and deal with the evil that matters.”

        With a government (fire) going out of control with perpetual wars – (Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria? Mali, Yemen, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, The “terrorist”, The Islamist “extremist”, A religion called Islam, The Taliban (who we trained and armed), Al-Qaida (who we trained as well, and seem to be as elusive and vaguely wide spread as “terrorism”), or whatever other flavor) – Rand is trying to deal with the evil that matters as it pertains to the assassination of American Citizens on American soil, as its already been rationalized arbitrarily for one on foreign soil.

        Here’s another one I know BRT will like from an old dead white guy…
        “If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad.” – James Madison

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant says, “Well, well, and I thought we had a truce”. No, Vig, I beat your brains out on that other thread, you had a complete meltdown that was characterized by one of the worst “ad hominems” ever seen on PLD, and you (wisely) let me have the last word as you abandoned the field and went off to lick your wounds. I have been busy with ‘real life” for several days now and have barely looked at PLD. I will have some time this week and (if you insist) will be glad to expose you again as a pseudo-intellectual who thinks sniffing down his nose from weakly thought out and supported positions is any kind of proof of understanding or intelligence.

        “You add nothing meaningful to the discussion”. Not for you to say, Vig—that’s an ad hominem and pure unsupported opinion. I would NOT say that about you. You occasionally make some good points in discussions but your greatest value seems to be setting yourself up as a bad example of how NOT to do it—-a good object lesson. Are you going to succumb to the same temptation that your buddy Frank has?—-try to “get RBT” until you make yourself look totally foolish?

        “I require no quotes from great men unless they said it with an elegance and succinctness I would not deign to second guess. If you want quotes from the Founders regarding the innate dangers of government, consult the Federalist Papers, their personal writings and speeches”.

        Like I said, if you can’t say it in your own words, quote somebody and try to make everyone think you understand what they said. I have read much of the Federalist Papers and what the “founding fathers” said before and after, including the history of the Bill of Rights. Unlike you, I don’t use them to try to impress folks, particularly since the whole “history” of that time is so very complicated and any proper use would make for very long essays indeed.

        “Their grasp of history ran circles around yours”. That sounds so clever but is really so dumb. Does it escape you that their “history” is over 220 years old and is the history of colonial subjects revolting against a monarchy and what were the early arguments about the founding of the republic? Our history INCLUDES their history, and the “here and now” is where we live and try to work out our destiny. Using short quotes out of context is mere “dilettantism” and adds “little meaningful to the discussion”

        And “disdain”, and “cliches”, and “committed leftists”, and “sophomoric utterances”, and “white European Males” (something I never said). Sorry, they did some wonderful things back then, but they ARE old dead white guys (200+ years now), and the country has come a long way since then. All that follows is pure rhetoric and “adds nothing meaningful to the discussion”.

        “Such disdain for the Founders with the cliché of “old dead white guys’ is typical of the committed leftists such as you. The enemy is you, my friend”
        (I’m an “enemy” now? Of what? Since I’m not a committed leftist, I must be the enemy of fools of any stripe that run their mouths without thinking on PLD—like you, for one)

        “Dead white European males” was the term I was accustomed to hearing from the sophomoric utterances of the “Make love not war” idiots of the 60s. Seems that growing older is no guarantee of wisdom.
        (Yes, it would appear that your spouting of cliches proves that point. You have not grown wiser as you’ve aged. You still adhere to the mindlessness of the ’60′s yourself, apparently).

        “Dead,” as if only the philosophies of the living are to be considered relevant to the problems of the age.
        (I didn’t say that, and you’re a fool to suggest that I did).

        “White,” as if your racist squint deems only the opinions of a multicultural plenipotentiary committee to be worthy of consideration.
        (Didn’t say that either and you’re a fool to suggest that I did)

        “European,” as if it wasn’t the Enlightenment that produced the most progressive and humane framework for government in the history of the world.
        (Didn’t say that either and you’re a fool to suggest that I did. Although I do agree with the general thrust of the statement. It wasn’t relevant so I didn’t bring it up)

        “Males,” as if their gender wasn’t capable of recognizing that individual sovereignty was and still is the highest ideal of human existence.
        (Really??? That’s a truly mindless piece of rhetoric? Why do you insist on piling stupidity on top of stupidity? This country was ruled by “males” when such things as slavery, genocide of native Americans, denial of the right to vote for women, Jim Crow laws, etc, ETC, ETC. were the law of the land. The only “sovereignty” they seemed to recognize was the power of the male (white particularly) to deny “sovereignty” to multiple classes of human beings. The “highest ideal of human existence”? LOL.

        And the ultimate mindlessness is unveiled as Vig seeks to “finish me off” with his brilliant logic and reasoning.

        “The pioneers of the sciences you worship were largely dead white European males. Darwin was one; does that invalidate evolution? Are the advances of Newton, Einstein, et. al., to be discarded because they are “old dead white guys?” Only by your reckoning, apparently”.

        Does Vig know about “nonsequiturs”? Apparently not, or he wouldn’t make this stupid argument. Only by his reckoning does it make sense, apparently, and that’s obvious to all. And “sciences you worship”? Again Vig fails to think something through, or he would not overreached with “worship” and would have perhaps talked more about the scientific methods of gathering and analyzing data that we owe so much to. It is apparently an alien concept to him.

        Vigil;ant says “I once thought you had some proficiency in the cognitive area. Your “old dead white guys” brickbat of a comment now impels me to conclude that you are just one more paid shill for the left”.
        I will say that Vig is obviously NOT qualified to JUDGE my “proficiency in the cognitive area”. As a former educator, I am WAY more qualified to judge his, and assert expertise in that area that far exceeds what he possesses. He will say that is my “opinion”, but it is far better supported by my comments here than his PURE opinion is. Vig is already using the debate technique called “abandonment of discussion” as he “concludes I am a paid shill”. A faulty conclusion based on NO evidence—-what he IS impelled to do there is spout horsepucky because he has no real argument to make.

        If you want to play whack-a-mole, Vig, just keep it up. I’ll oblige.
        The score is now RBT~20, Vig-0

        TML’s foolishness will have to wait for tomorrow—-Laugh In is over and I’m weary.
        Say Goodnight, Vigilant.

      • Vigilant

        LOL! The meltdown is in progress all right. NB’s epistle-length apologies testify to it. It’s not just that he’s following me around like a stalker to gratuitously take potshots at me; he feels childishly compelled to keep score. Waste of bandwidth, NB, waste of bandwidth. You’ve engaged a brain superior to yours in all aspects. As a mental midget, you are doomed to failure in any logical argument with the master. You have weaseled out of so many confrontations with logic that you have assumed that as your habit.

        “Physician, heal thyself.” Recognize that it is you who believes that “sniffing down [your] nose from weakly thought out and supported positions is any kind of proof of understanding or intelligence.”

        Obssession is unhealthy for an old “true believer” such as you. Better watch that BP, old fart.

        “I will say that Vig is obviously NOT qualified to JUDGE my “proficiency in the cognitive area”. As a former educator, I am WAY more qualified to judge his, and assert expertise in that area that far exceeds what he possesses.”

        That is perhaps the richest and most amusing comment of all. Like most PhDs who insist that they be addressed as “doctor,” NB pulls out the old “as a former educator” ploy as if that alone entitles him to assert opinion as fact. A word to the dumb: expertise is demonstrated by what you say and do, NOT by possession of a piece of paper.

        Yes, John Dewey was an “educator” as well, and thanks to the adoption of his mind-programming social engineering philosophies by “educators” such as NB, we see the devastating results in today’s public so-called “education.”

      • Vigilant

        No Brain asserts “Since I’m not a committed leftist…” but fails to give ANY indication that he is anything BUT.

        Tell me old man, do you have the courage to address the following questions to ascertain whether or not you are a leftist?

        Do you believe:

        (1) That the Constitution is a “living” document?
        (2) That the job of the government is to redistribute wealth?
        (3) That the aim of public “education” is to raise awareness of (and program young minds to subscribe to) multiculturalism, socialism, environmentalism and the leveling techniques of self-esteem and forced mediocrity?
        (4) That the dignity and right of the individual to assert his/her individual sovereignty must take a back seat to the bankrupt collectivist ideologies of the left?
        (5) That Christianity (or any theist position) must be constantly assailed and denigrated?
        (6) That secular humanism provides the only valid standards of morality?
        (7) That the Founders were remiss in not handing us an absolutely perfect government?
        (8) That history has not repeatedly shown that the highest number of prosperous and happy people have resulted from the freedoms offered by Capitalism?
        (9) That the taking of innocent human life is less worthy of censure than the self-centered choice of an amoral, slatternly human adult?
        (10) That private property, the very heart of our rights, is an outmoded notion?

        That’s just ten questions. Feel free to circumlocute, obfuscate, or weasel your way out of answering directly as you so often do. Just trying to get at the facts.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant once again steps all over the concepts of logic and rational debate with his “questions”. He once again shows what a fool he is to even think that I will play his game. Circumlocution, obfuscate, and weasel? If I don’t play his game? Laughable.

        Vig again wants to substitute his weak opinions and misguided beliefs for reasoning when he talks about “fails to give ANY indication that he is anything BUT (a committed leftist)”. Uh, Vig—-the way it works is that YOU need to prove that I AM a “committed leftist”, not that I have to prove that I’m not. Go for it—-line up all my comments that show that “commitment” and then we can talk.

        Once more we see the arrogant ignorance appear with, “Tell me old man, do you have the courage to address the following questions to ascertain whether or not you are a leftist?” A fine collection of right wing ideological talking point horsepucky, Vig. Where did you copy it from? It is not original with you I get “surveys” like this from the Heritage Foundation all the time—-dishonest and downright insulting to the intelligence.

        Score is now RBT~23, Vigilant-0

      • Kevin

        So your not going to answer his questions? I mean if they are so easy to Identify and dismiss then take them apart one by one. hell just answer one of them. the fact that you find them so repugnant to your sensibilities seems like an answer in Itself. you are obviously not really interested in an actual exchange of Ideas or any real communication as evidenced by your keeping a “score” a few of those questions looked rather simple to me and could be easily marked off with a Yes or No. what are you afraid of??? Be proud of who you are. if you want people to respect you and to understand what it is you stand for then back it up by being honest. I don’t think condescending and Purile remarks will make any one take your Opinions seriously.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant talks about “meltdowns” here, and implies that I am having one. In actuality, he is following the same foolish path he did on the other thread that resulted in HIS classic meltdown and abandonment of the field. So, let’s look at what mindlessness he is spouting here and see how many toes he is shooting off.

        “NB’s epistle-length apologies testify to it”.
        (APOLOGIES? From ME? For what? Vig is delusional again)
        “It’s not just that he’s following me around like a stalker to gratuitously take potshots at me”
        (I stalk no one—-I stalk lies. distortion, self-delusion, and mis-information, and my “potshots” are anything but “gratuitous”—-as Vig should realize by now)
        “he feels childishly compelled to keep score”
        (Yup, and I do it as a measure of Vig’s wasted efforts to “score” on me. Maybe when it gets up to the 200 to 0 range Vig will do a Frank and give it up)
        “You’ve engaged a brain superior to yours in all aspects”
        “As a mental midget, you are doomed to failure in any logical argument with the master”.
        (Vig says it so it must be true—-he may be kidding us here with “master”, though. I sure would like to see some evidence of what he calls his “superior brain”)
        “You have weaseled out of so many confrontations with logic that you have assumed that as your habit”
        (Vig, show us some logic and I’ll “duel” with you—-your bald assertions—all just OPINIONS—-are not something that can be answered other than to say “self-deluded horsepucky”) .

        “Physician, heal thyself.” Recognize that it is you who believes that “sniffing down [your] nose from weakly thought out and supported positions is any kind of proof of understanding or intelligence”
        (You’re the one who keeps climbing up on the high horse of smugness, condescension, feigned intellectualism, and downright arrogance, Vig. You are perhaps too self-deluded to recognize that, but it’s true).

        “Obsession is unhealthy for an old “true believer” such as you. Better watch that BP, old fart”
        (OLD FART? Vigilant IS melting down—-he’s running out of (what he thinks are) arguments and is now just name-calling).

        “I will say that Vig is obviously NOT qualified to JUDGE my “proficiency in the cognitive area”. As a former educator, I am WAY more qualified to judge his, and assert expertise in that area that far exceeds what he possesses.”

        Vig says, “That is perhaps the richest and most amusing comment of all. Like most PhDs who insist that they be addressed as “doctor,” NB pulls out the old “as a former educator” ploy as if that alone entitles him to assert opinion as fact. A word to the dumb: expertise is demonstrated by what you say and do, NOT by possession of a piece of paper”

        Yes, Vig has once again proved my point so I will repeat it. .”Vig is obviously NOT qualified to judge my “proficiency in the cognitive area”. As a former educator, I am WAY more qualified to judge his, and I assert expertise in that area that far exceeds what he possesses.” I didn’t insist on being called by any title other than “Mister” during my time in education, and my training and experience DOES in fact qualify me to make the assertion I did—-I spent 30 years “doing”, and had to deal with fools like Vig among the students, parents, and faculty—-they DID listen to what I said and DID what I told them to do, because I was speaking truth to them. No “ploys” involved. If Vig were a faculty member in my school, his OBVIOUS attitudinal and mental shortcomings would have put him in danger of losing his job.

        “Yes, John Dewey was an “educator” as well, and thanks to the adoption of his mind-programming social engineering philosophies by “educators” such as NB, we see the devastating results in today’s public so-called “education.”
        Vig closes with a brilliantly chosen piece of horsepucky that he has copied from some wing nut site. John DEWEY? Mind-programming social engineering philosophies? Devastating results? Lord love a duck, Vig! You are approaching meltdown.

        Score is now RBT~38, Vigilant-0

      • Vigilant

        Perhaps the most amusing shortcoming of this petulant “former educator” is his inability to distinguish fact from opinion. It is glaringly obvious that he has never learned a thing about the nature and origin of our knowledge as human beings. If he ever took a course in epistemology or logic and actually came away with an understanding of them, I would be surprised.

        As it also is with regard to his misuse of the English language. He has such a cavalier approach to language that he actually believes that he can make up a new word and be justified in asserting “it IS a word.” He has done this before, subjecting himself to the ridicule it warranted, in spades.

        But this is nothing in comparison to his exceptional misuse of the language in advancing an opinion as if it were a fact. In particular, with regard to the two statements he makes and considers them one and the same, i.e., “God does not exist” and “I believe God does not exist.” Not just that, but when I school him on what constitutes proper use of the language, he willfully disregards the logical argument to “abandon the discussion,” as he would say, to launch into unwarranted accusations that I am “preaching.”

        OK, let’s frame this argument in another way to avoid such baseless charges by the language-challenged. I make a statement that “God exists” and claim it to be a fact. OK, says the skeptic, if it is fact then you must prove it to me.

        It is no more provable than the statement “God does not exist.” Neither is a statement of fact, they are both statements of belief, they are opinions, they are at best hypotheses subject to test. Now NB asserts that “God does not exist” is a “fact,” turning the English language and the rules of logic on their heads by providing NOTHING beyond this flat statement to disprove that “God does exist.”

        He has been so programmed in his hard core atheism that he asserts an unprovable statement to “disprove” another. In his total blindness, he will never admit the truth: that atheism is a religious belief because it takes in faith that which is unprovable.

        I am “preaching” nothing, NB, I am edifying you in the use of language, and the definitions of fact and opinion universally accepted by all rational human beings.

      • Vigilant

        No Brain says, “Uh, Vig—-the way it works is that YOU need to prove that I AM a “committed leftist”, not that I have to prove that I’m not. Go for it—-line up all my comments that show that “commitment” and then we can talk.”

        Thanks for proving my point. You do not have the courage to answer simple questions. And your weaseling out of answering was predicted. BTW, my language-challenged friend, a question is not a talking point, it is an interrogative. I know you feel you can change the rules of English as the whim hits you, but no persuasiveness in argument obtains therefrom. What a cowardly abandonment of discussion.

        “He once again shows what a fool he is to even think that I will play his game.” Guess that labels you as a fool to play Frank’s game. Unless, of course, when faced with a chance of stepping on your member, you conveniently opt out.

        No Brain says, “A fine collection of right wing ideological talking point horsepucky, Vig. Where did you copy it from? It is not original with you I get “surveys” like this from the Heritage Foundation all the time—-dishonest and downright insulting to the intelligence.”

        I copied it from nowhere, and they are simple questions you cannot answer without divulging your leftist bent. S’matter, old man, afraid to stand by your sentiments? Or being discovered for what you are?

      • Vigilant

        “NB’s epistle-length apologies testify to it”.
        “(APOLOGIES? From ME? For what? Vig is delusional again)”

        Schooling NB in the English language is becoming tiresome. Look up the word “apology” in the dictionary (if you even have one), oh clueless one.

        Perhaps you’ve never read Plato’s “Apology” or ever heard of “apologists?”

        Then, “—-I spent 30 years “doing”, and had to deal with fools like Vig among the students, parents, and faculty—-they DID listen to what I said and DID what I told them to do, because I was speaking truth to them. No “ploys” involved.”

        No, NB, you spent 30 years “programming,” not “doing.” I spent more years in real life “doing,” and learned first hand about reality. I’m street wise, and I can tell a phony every time I see one.

        “If Vig were a faculty member in my school, his OBVIOUS attitudinal and mental shortcomings would have put him in danger of losing his job.”

        I have no doubt that my conservative views would endanger my survival in academia, where the vast majority at least have the guts to admit they are socialists. The incestuous relationship amongst the “educators” of this nation is well known, and their mental masturbation over matters of socialism and statism have made them actually believe that they are centrists.

        P.S. In your failure to deny that you are a leftist by answering any of my questions, we shall apply the maxim, “qui tacet consentire videtur.” You are indeed a leftist, and too cowardly to admit it.

      • Vigilant

        “It’s not just that he’s following me around like a stalker to gratuitously take potshots at me”

        To which No Brain says, “I stalk no one—-I stalk lies. distortion, self-delusion, and mis-information [sic], and my “potshots” are anything but “gratuitous”…”

        Better up your dosage of Ginkgo Biloba supplements, old man; your memory is failing you. The very start of this thread was a posting by me of two quotations, one from a PLD commenter and one by Jefferson. Nothing more and nothing less.

        Your unsolicited reply, in which you said, “All these tiresome quotes from old dead white guys—-and so carefully cherry picked to make some point that the writer can’t make for us in his own words,” was as gratuitous and snide a remark as you can make.

        Tell me just what in my original posting was a lie, distortion, self-delusion, or misinformation.

      • Kevin

        Your wasting your time. Although I have enjoyed watching you dismantle this Ideologues Drivel, it has now just become sad to watch. Although I am sure that If you stop the spanking and leave that he will then stand up and scream victory whilst adding another Imaginary check to his “Score”

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Kevin says, “So you’re not going to answer his questions?” Kevin, did you not read what I said? They are not “questions” meant to elicit real answers—-they are the types of “questions” that are termed “push” questions in the survey business—-they are meant to make “push” some point and I won’t waste the time to help Vig try to attack me. He can try to say the same things in his own words woithout the “twists” and I may talk to him, but only a fool answers “so when did you stop beating youyr wife” questions. The questions in themselves are not “repugnant to my sensibilities”—it’s Vig’s transparent “game playing” that is. You yourself are suffering from a pretty good dose of confirmation bias or you wouldn’t be saying “it seems like an answer in Itself—-you are obviously not really interested in an actual exchange of Ideas or any real communication as evidenced by your keeping a “score”.” You WANT to believe Vig and you DON’T want to accept what I say—-that’s your privilege and your mistake—-if you COULD look at our exchange with an open mind, you wouldn’t say that. Try “keeping score” yourself—-look at one short piece at a time from the perspective I point out, and then tell me Vig is the one that is “communicating” with “real ideas”.

        And yes, “a few of those questions looked rather simple to me and could be easily marked off with a Yes or No”—-that’s exactly the point—”push” questions are worded so that you must say yes or no when the answer is “maybe” or “yes, but”. I fear very little at my age, and certainly nothing that Vig can throw my way. I don’t know if you have been visiting PLD for long and have read many of my copmments, but I am nothing BUT honest in stating what I believe and backing it up when appropriate. The only “condescending” and “puerile” you’ll see here are things like Vig’s “old fart” nonsense. (His use of that was a point for me, by the way).

        You may have meant to use “respect” rather than “condescending”, and it IS true that I have little respect for those who consistently abuse truth and sometimes show it—–there IS a subtle distinction there. And I have absolutely NO need for respect and don’t seek it here. I seek to educate and counter ignorance and those who don’t “understand” what I say because they don’t WANT to or don’t like the way I say it are the losers.

        Vigilant says:
        March 12, 2013 at 12:02 pm

        Vigilant wants to play whack-a-mole some more. He is foolish enough to go back to a now dead thread and selectively quote some things out of context. This is the thread he suffered the meltdown on, collapsed into a fit of “ad hominems” (and admitted it), and skulked off the field of battle, leaving me with the ” last word” because he had no arguments left—good, bad, or delusional. I can go back and quote from that thread too, and I will if it becomes necessary—-for now, I will be kind.

        “Perhaps the most amusing shortcoming of this petulant “former educator” is his inability to distinguish fact from opinion. It is glaringly obvious that he has never learned a thing about the nature and origin of our knowledge as human beings. If he ever took a course in epistemology or logic and actually came away with an understanding of them, I would be surprised”.
        (Vig YET AGAIN does not realize that he is doing EXACTLY what he has accused me of doing. There is not ONE “fact” in this whole paragraph. It is ALL opinion—I can “distinguish” that FACT and so can anyone else who reads it.)

        “As it also is with regard to his misuse of the English language. He has such a cavalier approach to language that he actually believes that he can make up a new word and be justified in asserting “it IS a word.” He has done this before, subjecting himself to the ridicule it warranted, in spades”.
        (Not quite sure what Vig is talking about, because it’s all OPINION again. In the real world, one needs to specify the “made up words”, explain the context in which they were used, specify the “ridicule” that resulted, etc. No, that’s too much thnking for Vig, who is th master of “bald assertion” aka, spouting unsupporterd opinions. Vig has YET AGAIN not realized that he is doing EXACTLY what he has accused me of doing earlier. There is not ONE “fact” in this whole paragraph either. It is ALL opinion)

        “But this is nothing in comparison to his exceptional misuse of the language in advancing an opinion as if it were a fact. In particular, with regard to the two statements he makes and considers them one and the same, i.e., “God does not exist” and “I believe God does not exist.” Not just that, but when I school him on what constitutes proper use of the language, he willfully disregards the logical argument to “abandon the discussion,” as he would say, to launch into unwarranted accusations that I am “preaching.”
        (For the third time in this screed, Vig again states his biased OPINION as fact. He plucks two statements out of context—-they were part of a string of five or six—-and tries to make something of them? And he “schools me” on proper language usage? LOL So far the only “schooling” Vig is doing is giving us all a textbook BAD example of illogical reasoning. He seems to think that his “subjective” rantings (opinions) should have as much weight as “objective” analysis (of facts).

        And now Vig is swinging off into La-La land with something that is totally unrelated to the thread. It refers back to an argument he lost on the old thread, and once again (for the fourth time now?) relies on subjective and unsupported opinions rather than rational analysis. Vig says,
        “OK, let’s frame this argument in another way to avoid such baseless charges by the language-challenged. I make a statement that “God exists” and claim it to be a fact. OK, says the skeptic, if it is fact then you must prove it to me”.

        “It is no more provable than the statement “God does not exist.” Neither is a statement of fact, they are both statements of belief, they are opinions, they are at best hypotheses subject to test. Now NB asserts that “God does not exist” is a “fact,” turning the English language and the rules of logic on their heads by providing NOTHING beyond this flat statement to disprove that “God does exist.”

        “He has been so programmed in his hard core atheism that he asserts an unprovable statement to “disprove” another. In his total blindness, he will never admit the truth: that atheism is a religious belief because it takes in faith that which is unprovable.

        I am “preaching” nothing, NB, I am edifying you in the use of language, and the definitions of fact and opinion universally accepted by all rational human beings”

        Ignoring the fact that Vig IS ONCE AGAIN “preaching” religion (whether he wants to recognize it or not), the use of such biased and subjective terms/words as the following makes his argument (whatever it is) meaningless:

        baseless
        language-challenged
        programmed
        hard-core atheist
        total blindness
        admit the truth
        atheism is a religion
        And that ignores as well the FACT that he has distorted what I said in the god does-does not exist discussion. One of Vig’s main weapons is his ability to blithely put words in people’s mouths and thoughts in their brains.

        SCore is now RBT~58, Vig-0

        Vigilant says:
        March 12, 2013 at 12:24 pm

        No Brain says, “Uh, Vig—-the way it works is that YOU need to prove that I AM a “committed leftist”, not that I have to prove that I’m not. Go for it—-line up all my comments that show that “commitment” and then we can talk.”
        (Yes, and it bears repeating until you understand the truth of it and really respond)

        “Thanks for proving my point. You do not have the courage to answer simple questions. And your weaseling out of answering was predicted. BTW, my language-challenged friend, a question is not a talking point, it is an interrogative. I know you feel you can change the rules of English as the whim hits you, but no persuasiveness in argument obtains therefrom. What a cowardly abandonment of discussion”
        (Vig is STILL offering OPINION in place of fact. He is so much of a motivated reasoner that he will NEVER score a point in the whack-a-mole game. You made no “point”, and It is not a question of “courage”, Vig, but one of stupidity—-you are stupid if you think anyone on PLD will buy your contention that these “questions” are anything but “talking points” and “push” questions. YOU are the one who wants to interpret the language and the processes of rational analysis to suit yourself, and it becomes more obvious with every word you put on paper. Don’t you recall what happened the last time you did that? Are you self-destructive? Do you like getting your brains beaten in in front of the world?

        “He once again shows what a fool he is to even think that I will play his game.” Guess that labels you as a fool to play Frank’s game. Unless, of course, when faced with a chance of stepping on your member, you conveniently opt out.
        (Frank? Is he still coming around? The only fool in the game when Frank and I “play” is Frank, because he just doesn’t know his limitations. And “conveniently opt out”? More unsubstantiated horsepucky, Vig. Don’t you understand that even the folks on this site that don’t like me are smart enough not to swallow your crap? It gets old when all you have to show them is namecalling and OPINIONS.

        “No Brain says, “A fine collection of right wing ideological talking point horsepucky, Vig. Where did you copy it from? It is not original with you I get “surveys” like this from the Heritage Foundation all the time—-dishonest and downright insulting to the intelligence.”
        Vig says, “I copied it from nowhere”
        (Not to call you a liar, Vig, but I don’t believe you—NOBODY speaks like that unless tjhey’re doing it for a living and posting it on some blog. ‘fess up, it’ll go easier for you oif you tell the truth)

        “They are simple questions you cannot answer without divulging your leftist bent. S’matter, old man, afraid to stand by your sentiments? Or being discovered for what you are?”
        (Yep simple questions for anyone who is a big enough simpleton to actually pose them and think that they will be answered by anyone with half a brain. And the “old man” will cost you another point—-you DO give them away too easily. And how old are you, anyway? Should I call you “Junior”?)

        Score is now RBT~71, Vig-0 (and I didn’t charge you for the “No Brains” this time)

      • Kevin

        Ok so I will admit some Bias on my part. I am not a republican or a Democrat or a member of any Political Party hell I’m not even a Christian. What I am is an American who is fed up with Elite Politicians in Washington Bypassing our Constitution and Turning our Government Into a Breeding ground for corruption. I Did not vote for Bush and did not like him. I Did However Vote for Obama (the first time) and have been Kicking myself ever since. His words rarely match his actions and he is purposely Bankrupting our country(in my Opinion.. since you like pointing out others opinions) While I may not be able to stand the English language on its head or use my limited Intellect to bully you into submission. I can ask you a question of my own.
        Can you give me one example of a successful government program (i.e. a government program that is self-sustaining/not in debt)?
        Please Use small words so I will understand you correctly.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Kevin has not seen my reply to one of his other comments, so he may perhaps be excused somewhat for what he says here. Actually he sounds very much like Vigilant here—-a bunch of opinion with no real argument to support it. Kevin has “enjoyed” watching Vigilant get his brains beaten in? Too bad his confirmation bias makes it impossible for him to make rational observations of what is going on in front of his face. He appears to be a W.I.F.I. of the worst stripe. Ignorance is bliss, Kevin. Enjoy your bliss.

        “Your wasting your time. Although I have enjoyed watching you dismantle this Ideologues Drivel, it has now just become sad to watch. Although I am sure that If you stop the spanking and leave that he will then stand up and scream victory whilst adding another Imaginary check to his “Score”.

        Vigilant yet again runs in circles—-now he wants to talk about Plato and resorts to the old “look it up in the dictionary” ploy. A substitute for argument is what that is.

        And for one who never states opinion as fact, Vig does quite well with, “No, NB, you spent 30 years “programming,” not “doing.” Really? On what “experience” does Vig base that OPINION?

        Oh yes, Vig says “I spent more years in real life “doing,” and learned first hand about reality. I’m street wise, and I can tell a phony every time I see one”. More OPINION. Tell us about what YOU “did” in “real life”, Vig. I see little evidence that you learned much except how to run your mouth for extended periods without really SAYING anything of substance. So, what did you “do”? What was your “reality”? What makes you an expert on “phonies”, other than that you are one yourself?

        I said, “If Vig were a faculty member in my school, his OBVIOUS attitudinal and mental shortcomings would have put him in danger of losing his job.” To which Vig responded,

        “I have no doubt that my conservative views would endanger my survival in academia, where the vast majority at least have the guts to admit they are socialists. The incestuous relationship amongst the “educators” of this nation is well known, and their mental masturbation over matters of socialism and statism have made them actually believe that they are centrists”
        That little speech leads me to believe that Vig’s “OBVIOUS attitudinal and mental shortcomings” DID in fact land him in some hot water in whatever “reality” he lived and “learned in”. Yes, he would surely have found himself in front of my desk back in the day, and he is stubborn enough that he might have been one of the ones we fired. There weren’t many, and they came from both ends of the political spectrum, but the “conservatives” got fired in much higher proportions than the “lefties”.
        “Incestuous relationships”, “mental masturbation”, and “the vast majority admit they are leftists”—–Lord love a duck!

        And another logic fail by Vig, “P.S. In your failure to deny that you are a leftist by answering any of my questions, we shall apply the maxim, “qui tacet consentire videtur.” You are indeed a leftist, and too cowardly to admit it”

        Dream on, Vig—-YOU may choose to apply the maxim, but I HAVE spoken and told you that I will not reply to your feeble attempt to ask “non questions”. You should perhaps be the one to reverse that and stop beating on a dead horse that only makes you look bad as you keep repeating it. I am not a leftist because I am not a leftist—-period—-you had your chance to PROVE that I am a leftist—-you haven’t even attempted it—-YOU fail, not me. (And what’s with the Latin? Is that supposed to lend some “intellectualism” to your non-arguments?—-phony posturing, if you ask me)

        Vigilant is just brimming over with zeal here, although I am supposedly the one who is stalking him. Too bad he doesn’t take the time to think these comments through before posting them. Now he wants to change the subject and go all the way back to the very first comment he made, which WAS nothing more than a cheap quote rather than anything original. Who ever said anything in your ORIGINAL POST was “a lie, distortion, self-delusion, or misinformation”—–that all came in your later posts.

        And I have to chuckle at Vig’s use of “as gratuitous and snide a remark as you can make”—–this from the master of gratuitous snide remarks. And “as you can make”? Quite an overreach there, Vig, it was actually a rather minor “snark”, and only in the part that said, “so carefully cherry picked to make some point that the writer can’t make for us in his own words”—-truth is truth, and just because you don’t like it, it doesn’t become “snide”.

        Score is now RBT~81, Vig-0

      • Vigilant

        Kevin says, “Although I am sure that If you stop the spanking and leave that he will then stand up and scream victory whilst adding another Imaginary check to his “Score.”

        Kevin, you’re 100% right. No Brain continues to avoid any factual discussion, addressing everything but the arguments put forth. He is a weasel par excellence.

        Then there’s the childish “score keeping” thing. I’m certain he’s accustomed to being a participant AND referee at the same time. Pity him for a need to win so strong that he’s blinded by his own ego. We all know what the REAL score is.

        I’ll engage him no longer and, as you say, he will claim a “victory” simply because I will discontinue questioning when he refuses to answer, and field factual arguments which he studiously avoids.

        P.S. to No Brain: I may have leveled ad hominems at you, but I have never called you a liar. I have been posting on this site far longer than you have, and everyone will tell you I never plagiarize or fail to attribute sources. The list of questions was mine, written on the spot, and I most assuredly don’t do this for a living.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vigilant is cracking under the strain of maintaining the facade. What facade is that, you ask? The facade that HE is engaging in “factual discussion” and making any kind of “arguments”. As usual, he again just offers OPINIONS and insists that they are truth just because he says so. Let me denote all the things that are OPINION in this comment.

        Kevin, you’re 100% right. (OPINION) No Brain continues to avoid any factual discussion (OPINION), addressing everything but the arguments put forth (OPINION). He is a weasel par excellence (OPINION)

        Then there’s the childish “score keeping” thing. (OPINION) I’m certain he’s accustomed to being a participant AND referee at the same time.(OPINION) Pity him for a need to win so strong that he’s blinded by his own ego (OPINION). We all know what the REAL score is.(OPINION)

        So far, Vigilant has said NOTHING of substance—presented no facts, no arguments based on those facts, just bald assertions of what Vigilant WANTS to be the truth.

        And now Vigilant is again abandoning the field and sniffing down his nose as if it’s MY fault. Nice try Vig, but only in your world of self-delusion is anyone buying that.

        Vig says, “I’ll engage him no longer and, as you say, he will claim a “victory” simply because I will discontinue questioning when he refuses to answer, and field factual arguments which he studiously avoids”.

        Actually, I avoid answering no question that is honest and not contrived, as yours were. Just because I refuse to play your silly game, does not mean I am “refusing” to engage in real discussion, and if you ever fielded a “factual argument”, I would be glad to “field it”—-I would have “fielded” anything “factual” you said in your first two paragraphs above, but you were too busy blowing smoke to be “factual”.

        And a closing P.S. to No Brain: “I may have leveled ad hominems at you, but I have never called you a liar. I have been posting on this site far longer than you have, and everyone will tell you I never plagiarize or fail to attribute sources. The list of questions was mine, written on the spot, and I most assuredly don’t do this for a living”

        I never called you a liar either, in fact I specifically said “I’m not going to call you a liar”. I just said I didn’t believe you. You have been posting on this site far longer than I have, you say? And everyone has let you get away with spewing opinionated horsepucky? Since you haven’t posted much factual material that needed sources or attribution that I have seen, I won’t dispute that you can perhaps do it right—-I can remember some thread a few months ago where you and I were in agreement on something because you were laying out true facts rather than OPINION. If you insist that you pulled those questions out of your head, I will accept that only if you can acknowledge that they are likely an amalgam of right wing ideological talking points that have become embedded in your thought processes.

        Score is now RBT~93, Vig-0 (I AM charging you for the “No Brains” this time—they’re uncalled for).

        .

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Kevin has stopped his mindless support of Vigilant’s foolishness and has said something worthy of reply. He states some opinions, and strings them together intelligently and in a “supportable” way. I can agree with some of what he has said and accept all of it as a valid expression of belief (rather than the simple smoke blowing some on PLD engage in).

        All that said, Kevin’s question looks a bit like one of Vig’s “push” questions because it’s really the combination of two separate questions. Are we looking for programs that are “successful” or programs that are “self-sustaining/not in debt”? Putting both things in there complicates things. Nearly ALL government programs are “successful” for somebody—-SNAP for the hungry, crop subsidies for the greedy rich of the agribusiness cartels. Some are self-sustaining (even though none come quickly to mind), and others are “in debt” to such a small degree that we don’t care about it—-the benefits outweigh the costs. So the question is really unanswerable (assuming it is a real question and not just a “talking point” disguised as a question).

        “Can you give me one example of a successful government program (i.e. a government program that is self-sustaining/not in debt)?”

      • Kevin

        I was under the Impression that our Government is quite wasteful in its Management. Correct me if I’m wrong but has it not taken money several times from Social Security to the tune of around 16 trillion dollars since its Inception. I also seem to recall that Amtrak is run by our Government? Although I am not versed in the facts about this little gem I believe that it has been a loosing Proposition. and the Post Office is a mess as well. so what I am trying to get at is that in my opinion our government has a very poor track record with spending Tax dollars. yet it wants more. I would think that a serious look at where the money is going and how it is being spent would be in order before “we the people” are asked to pony up again. and I was not trying to be cute with the question or give a “push” question as you called it. I simply feel that if the current administration wants me to make sacrifices and give more , then It should become fiscally responsible first and clean its own house first.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Kevin says, “I was under the Impression that our Government is quite wasteful in its Management”. If all you want to believe is the propaganda from those who would destroy our “government” and the country along with it, that is the “impression” you will get.

        You’re not wrong that “it” has it taken money several times from Social Security to the tune of around 16 trillion dollars since its Inception—what you may be “wrong” about is who did that and why. A look at the facts rather than the right wing propaganda will lead you to an understanding that it was mainly the “cut taxes and spend” policies beginning under Reagan and continuing through Bush that resulted in that.

        Amtrak is not “run” by our Government, but it is correct that it has lost money for years and has been subsidized by the “government”. That “little gem” is something that large numbers of people think SHOULD be subsidized because passenger trains are something that benefits the ‘greater good”, just like highways and airports. Amtrak actually takes in enough to cover 85+% of its operating costs and only loses money on the long distance trains. It gets subsidies of about $1 billion a year. Highways have gotten about $11 billion a year over the past few years and the subsidies to the oil and gas industries and agribusiness run into the tens of billions each year. Romney went after Amtrak because of politics, nothing more.

        Yes the Post Office could be said to be in a bit of a “mess” as well. That is mainly due to certain right wingers imposing a requirement that the USPS pay all retirement costs up front for future retirees. The changing world of communication and computers is also eating into the USPS operation, but that’s another story.

        You say that “what I am trying to get at is that in my opinion our government has a very poor track record with spending Tax dollars, yet it wants more”. I don’t know how old you are, Kevin, but some things you have said lead me to believe that you are in your 20′s or 30′s and aren’t really familiar with what has gone on in this country for the last 60 years. You seem to be taken by the anti-government, “spend less”, “tax less” mantra that the misguided on the right preach.

        Yes, “a serious look at where the money is going and how it is being spent would be in order”, but AT THE SAME TIME that we look at the greedy rich that have been stealing from “we the people”. That’s where there is a need to “pony up”, and the greedy rich are spending big bucks to get folks like you to fight their battles for them (You don’t make over $250,000 a year, do you?). I don’t think you were “trying to be cute” with the question, and a “push” question is what it was even if yo didn’t intend that..

        “I simply feel that if the current administration wants me to make sacrifices and give more, then It should become fiscally responsible first and clean its own house first”.

        That’s what I call “parroting” of a “right wing talking point”. All of it—–”current administration”, “sacrifices”, “give more”, “should become fiscally responsible”, clean its own house” is based on twisted facts and twisted logic—-the current administration is in fact fiscally responsible, is not asking you to make major sacrifices or give much more, and would clean OUR house more quickly if the Party of NO didn’t fight them every step of the way. You need to look inside your head and separate fact from belief, what you want to believe from what the facts say is truth.

      • Kevin

        Ok so… when I speak its “opinion” “Parroting” “Propaganda” “Right wing” but when you speak its “truth” “facts”. Also your attempt to marginalize me by questioning my Life experience or the assumption that I must be young seems like a cheap shot to me. I am 50 years old and although I have not until recent began to pay attention to goings on in our government I can assure you that my thoughts are my own. I get the distinct Impression from your last message that Instead of discussing my opinions about our governments poor Management skills, you would rather try to bate me with Innuendo and (in your words) Parroting a left leaning rhetoric about how any and all current problems facing our country can be laid at the feet of Conservatives and the “right Wing”. While I can agree that Republicans are easily responsible for a large share of the blame for the condition of our economy. I equally blame the Democratic party as well. After watching a little documentary called Inside Job I was absolutely floored at what our government allowed to happen to us in the name of Profit. Equally shocking was the fact that some of the same people who were involved are still holding positions in the current administration. If by the “Rich not paying their fair share” you are speaking to these Individuals… then I will agree. I have never Identified myself as Either liberal or as conservative for a reason. I will not tow the line for either party as I feel they are the main obstacle to true reform in our Governing body. If your only reason for reply is to Marginalize me or make Erroneous assumptions as to my age or experience in an attempt at ridicule. then I am not Interested in your Words. I have attempted to give you a measure of respect you seem unwilling to afford others.
        1..As for your assertion that Amtrak is not run by the government although there is stock in the company, the U.S. Govt owns all the stock and it is not traded in any way.
        so even though it is set up as a sort of semi-official company, it is 100% government owned and operated.
        The United States Govt owns the equipment, and they hire the crews. They pay RR companies for the rights to operate it on their lines.
        2. Social Security..President George W. Bush made a shocking assertion back in 2005 when he was pushing to privatize Social Security. “A lot of people in America think there is a trust,” he said, “that we take your money in payroll taxes and then we hold it for you and then when you retire, we give it back to you. But that’s not the way it works. There is no trust fund — just IOUs ….”But, unfortunately, Bush was right. In 1983, Congress and the Reagan administration adjusted Social Security taxes and benefits to put the program on an even keel that began to build up a huge surplus for investment. But Congress decided to “borrow” the surplus instead of investing. They’ve been using it to help pay for things that have nothing to do with Social Security, things the political establishment and tax-averse Americans wanted but didn’t want to pay for: invasions, education, highway repairs and so on. And, without giving any thought to paying the surplus money back, the federal government has been trading it for special Treasury bonds that politicians used to assure us were safe in a lock box.

        Just IOUs. In a lock box.

        They are, however, IOUs that are supposed to be backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. So this year, as the Social Security Administration is beginning to fall short of what it needs to pay retiree benefits, it is cashing in $45 billion of the bonds. And because the country is upside down in debt, it has to borrow the $45 billion from China or somewhere else to make older people’s ends meet. Those maneuvers will presumably continue until 2037 unless the system is adjusted in the meantime or Uncle Sam’s credit line runs out.
        3.Post Office… as for your assertion that it is the “Right wing” or Republicans fault for the USPS being insolvent It should be noted that 2/3 of the cosponsors of that 2006 bill were Democrats, and the bill passed unanimously. Additionally, the Post Office actually got a break, they got 10 years to fund their pension, whereas most private industry got 7 years due to a bill passed months earlier which was praised by the Democrats.
        Additionally the post office was never Intended to be run in the manner it is today. it was only ever intended to break even.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Kevin, if you want to have a discussion, you need to drop the “combativeness” (or take the defensive chip of your shoulder, whichever it may be). That is the mark of the folks who come on this site to beat their chests and “show off” inf front of their ignorant fellow WIFI.

        I did NOT say “when you speak, it’s “opinion” “Parroting” “Propaganda” “Right wing” but when I speak its “truth” “facts”. Not all the time—only when you are in fact doing it.

        I apologize if you think I’m trying to “marginalize” you—not my intent. I’m nearly 73 and lived through things that you have only read about, and you yourself admit that you “have not until recently began to pay attention to goings on in our government”. I didn’t pay all that much attention either until I was in my late 20′s (when you were entering grade school. If you followed the same path as I did, you weren’t paying much attention until Reagan was leaving office or later.

        You say, “I get the distinct Impression from your last message that Instead of discussing my opinions about our governments poor Management skills, you would rather try to bait me with Innuendo and (in your words) Parroting a left leaning rhetoric about how any and all current problems facing our country can be laid at the feet of Conservatives and the “right Wing”. If you have read many of my comments, you would realize that is far from the case. I have treated you rather honestly and much more “gently” than the real fools on PLD. YOU are the one doing a little “baiting” with “how any and all of our country’s problems can be laid at the feet of the conservatives and right wing”. Never said that—-not “any and all problems”, just MOST of them.

        “While I can agree that Republicans are easily responsible for a large share of the blame for the condition of our economy. I equally blame the Democratic party as well. After watching a little documentary called Inside Job I was absolutely floored at what our government allowed to happen to us in the name of Profit. Equally shocking was the fact that some of the same people who were involved are still holding positions in the current administration. If by the “Rich not paying their fair share” you are speaking to these Individuals… then I will agree. I have never Identified myself as Either liberal or as conservative for a reason. I will not toe the line for either party as I feel they are the main obstacle to true reform in our Governing body. If your only reason for reply is to Marginalize me or make Erroneous assumptions as to my age or experience in an attempt at ridicule. then I am not Interested in your Words”

        We are inmuch agreement there, although the Democrats are to be blamed for being followers. The Republicans began all the things that have led us here, starting with Reagan, and all too many Democrats just followed along. One of the things about O’Bama that has disappointed me greatly is the influence Wall Street seemsd to have had over his administration—-from campaign contributions through the number of Goldman Sachs alumni he has appointed to the failures to prosecute those who caused the collapse. I seek not to marginalize you—-you can only do that to yourself if you choose to climb on the “conservative parrot” bandwagon.

        “I have attempted to give you a measure of respect you seem unwilling to afford others”. Again, considering that we started talking after you made statements about how I was being “spanked”.by the likes of Frank Kahn and Vigilant and making “disrespectful” comments towards me, I have been very respectful. I reached out to you, remember.

        1..As for your assertion that Amtrak is not run by the government although there is stock in the company, the U.S. Govt owns all the stock and it is not traded in any way.
        so even though it is set up as a sort of semi-official company, it is 100% government owned and operated. The United States Govt owns the equipment, and they hire the crews. They pay RR companies for the rights to operate it on their lines.

        And? Why do you want to argue about this? Amtrak’s financial problems are not due to any government “mismanagement” but to the realities of passenger trains in the US today. You should look at the HUGE wastage in subsidies to the agricultural interests or fossil fuel interests if you want to see mismanagement.

        2. Social Security..President George W. Bush made a shocking assertion back in 2005 when he was pushing to privatize Social Security. “A lot of people in America think there is a trust,” he said, “that we take your money in payroll taxes and then we hold it for you and then when you retire, we give it back to you. But that’s not the way it works. There is no trust fund — just IOUs ….”But, unfortunately, Bush was right. In 1983, Congress and the Reagan administration adjusted Social Security taxes and benefits to put the program on an even keel that began to build up a huge surplus for investment. But Congress decided to “borrow” the surplus instead of investing. They’ve been using it to help pay for things that have nothing to do with Social Security, things the political establishment and tax-averse Americans wanted but didn’t want to pay for: invasions, education, highway repairs and so on. And, without giving any thought to paying the surplus money back, the federal government has been trading it for special Treasury bonds that politicians used to assure us were safe in a lock box.

        That’s just about 100% true, and again, it was the “borrow and spend” Republicans that played these games with the SS $$$, although too many Democrats DID go along. The right wing screams that O’Bama is the “spender” in the hopes that everyone will believe the lie if it’s repeated often enough. The truth is that Reagan and Bush 2 are responsible for the greatest portion of the debt and the present day Republicans are responsible for keeping us from taking the steps to solve the problem.

        They are, however, IOUs that are supposed to be backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. So this year, as the Social Security Administration is beginning to fall short of what it needs to pay retiree benefits, it is cashing in $45 billion of the bonds. And because the country is upside down in debt, it has to borrow the $45 billion from China or somewhere else to make older people’s ends meet. Those maneuvers will presumably continue until 2037 unless the system is adjusted in the meantime or Uncle Sam’s credit line runs out.

        I ask again. And? Nothing to argue about there.

        3.Post Office… as for your assertion that it is the “Right wing” or Republicans fault for the USPS being insolvent It should be noted that 2/3 of the cosponsors of that 2006 bill were Democrats, and the bill passed unanimously. Additionally, the Post Office actually got a break, they got 10 years to fund their pension, whereas most private industry got 7 years due to a bill passed months earlier which was praised by the Democrats.

        A moot point—-the original idea to require the Post Office to so massively overfund the future pension costs was a “conservative” idea. Perhaps a way to “bleed” money from the Post Office so they could use it to finance tax cuts for the greedy rich? And private industry is not required to prefund pensions at even 1/2 the rate of the Post office.

      • Kevin

        I will agree that I am to blame for us getting off on the wrong foot and will take that one on the chin. where I disagree with you is in your assertion that Democrats are only responsible for a small measure of blame for the state of our country. when you re-post a segment of my statement “………“I get the distinct Impression from your last message that Instead of discussing my opinions about our governments poor Management skills, you would rather try to bait me with Innuendo and (in your words) Parroting a left leaning rhetoric about how any and all current problems facing our country can be laid at the feet of Conservatives and the “right Wing”…. and then you reply…..”not “any and all problems”, just MOST of them… this seems to bear out my claim….And This is where you and I are fundamentally at odds in our views. I say that all parties are at fault and that the blame game serves no purpose except to be used as propaganda and cannon fodder to win political points. to obfuscate the real Issues facing every day Americans. I am one of those Americans and I am drowning…. I live below poverty level yet I do not qualify for assistance, although I would not be willing to take it anyway. I have been unemployed for nearly a year and have gone through things that I would not wish upon my enemies. Its been a daily diet of humiliation and heartache.The only reason I am able to post here is because of a kind retiree that lives next door to me. so when you speak to me with words such as….(I’m nearly 73 and lived through things that you have only read about, and you yourself admit that you “have not until recently began to pay attention to goings on in our government”). I have to wonder at your motivations for some of the things that you post… I have paid attention to your comments on this site and have gotten a feel for your style of debate. you are quite adept at turning the tables on your opponents and portraying the other fellow as less than credible or falling short of the level of wisdom that you yourself posses. I have no Interest in word games with you sir. I am sure that you could without too much effort make me out the fool. as for our disagreements I wish you luck in your search for the truth. as I hope you wish for me.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Kevin,
        We don’t have to agree. I say Republicans and conservatives are responsible for “most” or “more” of the problems and that’s what I believe from my observations over the last 40 years. IMO, the Democrats, while hardly blameless, are guilty mainly of following the Republican’s lead in terms of selling out to the plutocracy and corporate oligarchy (and that is no small sin).

        The “blame game” you talk about is almost exclusively a Republican “game”. Look at the Romney campaign—–no real plans, no real programs, just “blame” leveled at O’Bama and the Democrats. And they have not learned and are STILL doing it. I say good to that—-the Democrats will rule forever if the Republicans don’t wake up, and I trust the Dems to care much more about the greater good of the nation and the 99%.

        The “blame” laid on Republicans by everyone is not a game, it’s just truth being spoken. You may have reasons for being whatever it is you are—conservative or whatever, but you need to look at who is just “propagandizing” and who is trying to move the country “forward”.

        My heart goes out to you when you say, “I am one of those Americans and I am drowning…. I live below poverty level yet I do not qualify for assistance, although I would not be willing to take it anyway. I have been unemployed for nearly a year and have gone through things that I would not wish upon my enemies. Its been a daily diet of humiliation and heartache”. I wish you WOULD seek out some assistance. The way the game is stacked, the rich are well taken care of by the system, and YOU and the 99% are paying for it. It’s the American way to take care of our fellow citizens who are in need and I myself pay taxes just so that can happen—-you contributed for 49 years and helped others, you should be proud of that and not be too proud to take a little back now that you need it.

        When I say “I’m nearly 73 and lived through things that you have only read about, and you yourself admit that you “have not until recently began to pay attention to goings on in our government”, I speak only of what you understand about the history of politics and government in our country, not of your personal life experiences. My father was out of work for two or three months more than once when I was a kid, but I can’t imagine how it must be after a year.

        And my “motivations for some of the things that I post”? You say “you have paid attention to my comments on this site and have gotten a feel for my style of debate”. I am motivated by a search for truth and abhor all the misleading propagandizing, parroting of unsupportable opinions, and general abuse of rationality that we see on this site (and it comes 95% from the tight). If one speaks truth, one has nothing to fear from me.

        I am only adept at turning the tables on my opponents and portraying them as less than credible or falling short of the level of wisdom that I possess because the “other fellows” I duel with are often simply not very credible and not very wise. They are “motivated reasoners” who insist that what they believe is truth in spite of all evidence to the contrary, and it’s easy to point that out and make them look foolish. I tend to concentrate my aim mainly on those who attack me—-I call it “mess with the bull of rationality, feel the horns of truth”. And when they are “nasty” to me, I DO tend to unload on them—-it’s an old USMC and school administrator thing.

        I have no Interest in word games with you either. As for our disagreements, I have been seeking the truth for 23 years longer than you—-I would like to share what I’ve learned with you and others—that’s why I post. (Although I DO admit that “jousting” with the mindless fools can be fun sometimes—-it’s a better workout than a crossword puzzle)

      • Kevin Turnage

        From everything that I have Observed and read I Do not agree with the picture you paint of the Democratic Party and the Liberal Progressive movement in general. I also Do not Agree with the Republican/ Conservative agenda that helped bring us to the brink of Destruction in the last few years. I guess I’m just out of luck because Ive no one to support in Washington that expresses my viewpoint. I did read your post and give it attention to try and see your Opinions with an open mind. I wish you well. With respect K.T.

    • speedle

      Jeremy, you are missing the whole point about “smaller government”. Government is “Inherently Evil”. That is the reason we want it smaller. Remember the phrase “Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely”? Actually I think this is a key to the great divide of understanding between what I would characterize as “Good Intentioned Liberals”, and the Statists who use them.

      You, and others like you, seem to assume the integrity of government elected officials and bureaucrats until proven otherwise. That is like assuming you can keep a tiger as a pet until it attacks you. In both cases it is the nature of the beast (and human) that must be realistically controlled. That means that we never “trust” government to be benevolent. That is the core of the thinking of the folks who put the Constitution together (folks that were a helluva lot wiser and more experienced than anyone in Washington D.C. today). This means it is not nasty, disrespectful, stodgy, Neanderthal or any other disparaging tag you might want to use for Rand Paul (or any other proponent of the Constitution) to take the position he takes.

      • S.C.Murf

        Excellent post Speedle keep it up

        up the hill
        airborne

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Speedle

        1: Government is not inherently evil. All must be judged by their actions not their titles. Government is made up of people. Those people must be judged. If a government is made up of good people and held accountable it is not evil. Rules and regulations governing a society are not evil. They can be misused. But something being misused does not render it pointless or evil. The fact that there is injustice does not mean there is no justice. The fact that there are some bad government officials does not mean all government is bad.

        2: Power must be managed and controlled. It must be beholden to the people and used as much for good as possible. There is corruption and ineptitude in government I admit that. But the solution is not to make government smaller. The fact that we have incompetent or power mad police officers does not mean we simply shrink the size of the police force. We replace the bad officers and set better ground rules for the force as a whole. The way to deal with bad government is not to shrink it. Its to reform it and make it more accountable. We need to push through campaign finance and lobby reform. We need people to be more politically involved. Above all we need to recognize that we can improve government. Only by recognizing that we can solve this problem can we begin to address it. With all due respect I see the argument that we can simply shrink government and thereby make it better as being little better than giving up on trying to reform and improve. Its as if we have decided that instead of trying to fight the fire we are just going to start tearing down trees so the fire won’t spread as far.

        3: People must be judged on their actions. I do not automatically trust anyone. Especially those in power. But neither do I automatically distrust them. Alfred Korzybski once said “There are two ways to slide easily though life: To believe everything, or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking.”. I am trying to find a medium between those two extremes. Where as I believe Rand Paul has essentially fell into the extreme of doubting everything that has to do with government. Doubting those in government is necessary for a free society. But to simply doubt everything to do with government still requires a lack of thinking.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        speedle, I quit wasting my time reading and or responding to eddie47, flashy, Jeremy, and any one else with totalitarian socialist ideas labeled ad “democracy” a long time ago as it is at total waste of time and energy.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Capitalist name one thing I have proposed that falls under the label “totalitarian socialist ideas”. I have never advocated for the end of private property or government ownership of the means of production. I have never advocated the end of the bills of rights. Heck I have suggested people should exercise their first amendment rights even more. How exactly do the things I have suggested come any where near totalitarianism.

      • speedle

        No Jeremy. I have failed to make my point. It seems you are intent on “humanizing” government – that is to say it is unbecoming to criticize or attack these “people” that are in the government. It is not about the people that we pre-judge. Rather it is about the power and authority that we give these people to govern over us as a society. The “government” belongs to us much as the use of fire belongs to us. A little of it can be very helpful but too much will destroy us. So when we talk about the “size” of government we are not necessarily talking about the number of people it employs (although that is certainly an indicator). Rather we are talking about the “power” of government. The Constitution was written specifically to contain that power.

        The notion of having to give other humans power (and guns to exercise that power) over us is a vile (but necessary) concept if you think through it. But the key is to always remember that it is our responsibility to “constantly” monitor it and keep it under control. The day when government loses its fear of the people it serves will be the day it will be too large to control. But none of this is going to make sense to you until you buy into the idea that “we” enable the government, and it exists because we let it exist. It is not the other way around.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Just because it says that in the Declaration…..doesn’t mean they really
        meant it. or believed it………try to understand it as “convenient contemporary
        rhetoric”……..and it still doesn’t change the fact that your problem is
        plutocratically CORRUPTED government, which means that
        “eliminating government” doesn’t solve your problem.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Speedle

        1: I never said it is unbecoming to criticize or attack the people in government. I agree that government is a tool for us to use. I want government to be more accountable and ethical, more efficient and effective and above all more transparent. I believe that is how we contain their power. Everyone of use is capable of attaining great power. Its how we use that power that matters. We the people are the conscience for government. If we the people exercise our power we do not need to shrink government in order to improve our situation. We need to rid ourselves of the people in government who are not doing their job. That doesn’t mean we just get rid of their position. It means we replace them.

        2: I agree that we need to be watchful of the government. And I agree that people should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people. And finally I agree that we let it exist. I never said nor do I believe that government lets us exist. However its presence is necessary for us to have a society. Human beings require some form of structure or laws in order to function cohesively. Other wise anarchy reigns. That is why I disagree with the idea that “having to give other humans power (and guns to exercise that power) over us is a vile (but necessary) concept”. I agree that it is necessary but I disagree that it is vile. Ours is a republic. Its based on checks and balances so that no one group has too much power. Our republican history and tradition coupled with the people are the checks on government power. Like wise government is a check on the threat of mob rule or tyranny of the majority that comes with direct democracy. It remains my firm belief Speedle that individuals must be judged individually. As such I believe we must take the individuals in government one at a time. We must take their proposals and beliefs into consideration. Above all we must monitor government as you said for how the power it has been granted is being used. I believe the power of the government at this time is within reason and within check. So for me the issue is not one of reducing it but rather making sure it is being used properly.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Galt

        1: They did believe in the principles expressed in the declaration. They risked their lives for them.

        2: Corruption must be fought. Government must be reformed. When a fire erupts we don’t start chopping down trees and tearing down homes. We isolate and fight the fire.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        You may believe whatever fairy tale you like, Jeremy……..the winners write
        history …….temporarily.

        Far more plausible is the Mollasses Act, the Sugar Act, the time between them,
        and the conditions that changed in the interim.

        Human behavior is quite consistent over time, your fairy tale is not.

        If you seek to change human behavior, you must first understand it and accept
        it for what it is.

        Did the founders believe that ALL MEN WERE CREATED EQUAL?

        When you can sell that lie to anyone who is intelligent, let me know.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        What I believe in is no fairy tale Galt. The founders were imperfect men as we all are. But the principles they espoused are true. All men are created equal. That is no fairy tale.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        I commend you for wishing it were true……..but that has never made it true,
        even on the simplest of levels……logically it is a tautology…….legally it is
        an aspiration among those of conscience and sorely tested by reality.

        It takes more than “words”, and history does not support your fairy tale.

        You would think the bible would have provided sufficient example, it
        was far more explicit……..than the mere scrap of paper and the phrasing
        to which you refer.

        We have not evolved sufficiently even now, and we have access to a lot
        actual knowledge.

        As you can see ( and demonstrate ) it has had little impact or effect.

        As I said, you can not change that which you do not understand, or refuse
        to understand. If you wish to actually change things, you might want
        get down to business at some point. You have no argument with me,
        whether you realize it or not…….

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