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Their War On Freedom: A Deconstruction

February 26, 2013 by  

Their War On Freedom: A Deconstruction
PHOTOS.COM

Perhaps a bit of background is in order. The full text of the 2nd Amendment reads: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” If only our current politicians could operate in such a straightforward manner. Yet liberals like President Barack Obama have managed to conjure up all sorts of fantastical hidden meanings in that perfectly worded statement. In the cold light of logic, however, the gun grabbers’ various arguments fracture like Secretary of Defense nominee Chuck Hagel under Congressional interrogation. Allow me to demonstrate:

Liberal argument: When the 2nd Amendment was written, “arms” referred to flintlocks and muskets.

Most famously deployed by CNN’s Piers Morgan, a disgraced British journalist-turned-game show host-turned-commentator, this bit of revisionism presumes that the Founding Fathers were incapable of understanding the march of progress and that the Constitution itself is anachronistic. The presence in Philadelphia in 1787 of more than one of the foremost minds in human history belies the former, and the liberal insistence that somehow abortion is Constitutionally protected belies the latter. At the time of the 2nd Amendment’s ratification, firearms were barely beginning to transition from man-portable artillery. The guns of the day were heavy, inaccurate and unreliable under the best of circumstances. War strategy of the day was essentially the same as it had been for the better part of human history: a fusillade of poorly aimed projectiles followed by a flat-out charge. Given the limitations of 1787-era firearms, war was still a pretty “stabby” affair. If the Framers were capable of recognizing the past in the form of swords and bayonets, they were certainly aware of the future in the form of guns and ammunition. Yet they worded the 2nd Amendment in precisely the manner they did.

Liberal argument: Civilians don’t need assault weapons.

Given the fact that “assault weapon” is, at best, a nebulous phrase that liberals seem to define as “scary-looking,” it has joined “gun violence” as a rhetorical red flag, indicating the user’s prejudice more than any legitimate debating point. And “need” is a relative thing. The 2nd Amendment isn’t about hunting or sport shooting or even personal defense as much as it is about defense against tyranny. And defense against tyranny is something for which the Founding Fathers foresaw an eternal need, hence the lack of language specifying hunting, sport shooting or personal defense. As the Framers gathered in Philadelphia over the summer of 1787, our fledgling union was just a few years removed from victory over the largest empire on the planet. Tyranny wasn’t some amorphous villain hiding on the periphery of society; it was a clear and present danger. Indeed, King George and his red-coated minions would prove as much within a generation of the American Revolution, booking their return engagement in the War of 1812. The 2nd Amendment isn’t a declaration of need; it’s an admonishment. Just because the forces of tyranny no longer answer to Buckingham Palace doesn’t mean tyranny doesn’t still exist; ask the people of the Mideast, North Korea, Red China or Chicago.

Liberal argument: Guns cause crime.

I’ve noticed this fallacious fluff tends to be the default argument for the tinfoil hat-wearing extremists of the far left. Leftist websites like Dailykos.com and Media Matters will flatly state a cause-and-effect relationship between guns and violence, although no such link exists. The most gun-restrictive places in America are also its most violent. By restricting the firearm-ownership rights of law-abiding citizens, the liberals have also left them defenseless against an onslaught of criminals who couldn’t care less what Media Matters thinks of firearm possession. Moreover, the guns-cause-crime talking point assigns sinister intent to inanimate objects. Without humans to wield them, all the firearms in the world are merely complicated boat anchors.

Liberal argument: (So-called) high-capacity magazines are unnecessary.

This feat of logical legerdemain is actually more ludicrous than the guns-cause-crime argument. The idea that my ownership of multiple 30-round magazines for my AR-15 somehow endangers others is wrong and offensive. As I pointed out, left to themselves, guns are merely busy-looking doorstops. Therefore, magazines are merely oddly shaped paperweights.

Liberal Argument: Some guns are more dangerous-looking and, therefore, should be banned.

Take a look at the picture below. One of the guns is one of the — if not the — most commonly owned rifles in North America: the Ruger 10-22. It’s a redoubtable and recognizable weapon, chambered in the easy-to-handle .22 rimfire. It features a no-frills wood stock and a detachable 10-round rotary magazine, and it looks about as frightening as a BB gun. The other depicts a sinister-looking death machine. Outfitted in black polymer, it features a pistol grip and a folding and collapsible buttstock, and it is normally shipped with a 25-round magazine. One looks like an amped-up version of a Daisy air rifle. The other looks like something that would make Morgan lose control of his bladder. The thing is: They’re the same rifle. Sure, one looks awfully “tactical,” but it’s really just “tacti-cool.” They fire the same .22 rimfire round. The magazines that work in one work just as well in the other. And neither would be a particularly good choice as a primary weapon against agents of tyranny, from King George’s redcoats to Obama’s cronies in the U.S. Senate. By focusing on cosmetic features, gun grabbers are making specious points about tangential matters rather than focusing on the actual causes of crime.

Guns

Liberal argument: A disarmed America is a peaceful Nation.

Sure it is. That’s why Nazi Germany was such a fun spot for a party. A disarmed America is a turkey on the day before Thanksgiving. It’s fat, it’s rich and it’s defenseless.

I can’t fault Obama and his Democratic accomplices for their tireless efforts to keep the so-called “gun control” debate squarely in their political crosshairs. After all, as long as they can keep if not the general public, then at least their media accomplices and the poorly informed voters on whose necks they stand focused on one of the most exceptionally divisive issues of our time, they won’t have to explain themselves regarding their wars on the energy industry, the economy, the unborn or even their own diplomatic corps. As I’ve said before: Manufactured crises are perfect tools to keep the poor, huddled, liberal masses frozen with fear and hatred, and there’s hardly a more perfectly tailored fearmongering campaign than one in which the government can use dead children to sow mistrust among the public. By turning guns into menacing killing machines, the Democratic elite can turn gun owners into menacing killers. To be sure, what sort of soulless monster would dare suggest his Constitutional rights trump the lives of our Nation’s future — other than abortionists, of course. Thusly, while proponents of the Bill of Rights defend their basic freedoms against an onslaught of righteous — albeit wrongheaded — fury, the real issues of the day, from violence to economics, disappear behind a wall of promises, demands and Vice President Joe Biden’s bizarre rape-prevention tips.

–Ben Crystal

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • TC

    The end game for anyone on the left, liberals and Extremist radicals alike is making the world safe for Tyranny by disarming American citizens and getting rid of that pesky 2nd Amendment. “Gun Control” is in reality the means to people control. The left is angry that they haven’t quite found the “right” crisis for everyone to turn in their guns. Don’t think they aren’t working on manufacturering one either, their evil minds are always working on how to end America as we know it, or knew it.

    • eddie47d

      TC the right wing talking head (extremist) trying to pull himself out of his clown car. I suppose one extreme comment deserves another! We know that Conservatives can no longer own slaves. They can no longer slaughter Indians. They can no longer deny the right to vote to women. Its like the last election where you are still trying to nurse you wounds and seek revenge on every issue. You find fault with every black walking the face of the earth. You still beg women to stay at home and be your obedient sock puppets. The only good Mexican American is a …well you know how that goes! You think controlling weapons of notable death is pure evil yet take no responsibility for that carnage. Your full of excuses to justify your bad behavior and call it good! The ANGRY right is predictable in wishing for that old authority and wanting to be king of the hill in controlling others.

      • JeffH

        eddie(sack of hammers), how do you justify your unpatriotic self?

        Sack of hammer’s answer: “Read the rational unpatriotic comments I make.” “I’m only interested in what I believe in, not what the Bill of Rights, The Constitution or the Supreme Laws actually mean and certainly not justice and liberty for all”.
        __________________________________________________

        American Caesarism – Gun Control
        “The state is the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies, too; and this lie creeps from its mouth: ‘I, the state, am the people.’… Everything about it is false; it bites with stolen teeth.” These observations by Nietzsche defy the romantic ideals laid forth by Lincoln in his Gettysburg Address: government of the people, by the people, for the people. Nobody ever said philosophy was easy.
        - Frederick Nietzsche, 19th century German philosopher

        While a safe and civilized society is not possible absent a properly empowered government, there is one lone fact which distinguishes government from all other human enterprises. Government is granted, by consent of the governed, the authority to utilize violence against citizens who break the law.

        This singularity is shared by all forms of government; whether Democratic, Totalitarian, Feudal (rule by a noble class) or Theocratic (governed out of religious text.) Fail to pay taxes or send the children to school, and after the letters and telephone calls – eventually the authorities are going to kick the door down with guns drawn. The law is not voluntary, and it is the gun which puts the “force” in “enforcement.” Government, while wholly indispensable, is also inherently dangerous.

        So what is American Caesarism? It is when the political class:
        •- Treats peaceable citizens as suspects of crime (Patriot Act, TSA, NDAA, etc.)
        •- Plunders the citizens’ wealth by devaluing their savings via expansion of the money supply (inflation.) Thinkers ranging from Jefferson to Lenin wrote about this form of stealth robbery. Lenin was in favor of it. This is stealing, and the net results are no different than the forceable taking of ones valuables. Quantitative Easing makes the middle class poorer – especially seniors living off their savings.
        •- Repeatedly wages undeclared wars outside of our own borders, on other peoples’ lands (their property), which causes violent “blow back” (a CIA term.) In his farewell address, Dwight Eisenhower warned of the dangerous influences of the military-industrial complex. Aggressive wars make Americans materially poorer and less safe, while enriching politicians and their favored donors.
        •- Makes a mockery of free markets by passing and signing unreadable, incomprehensible bills which were actually written by industry lobbyists. Housing, education, and health care are now unaffordable because Congress literally lets the banking and health care industries write their own legislation.
        •- Allows an entrenched Robber Baron class, which is not “one percent” but actually a tenth of that, to fund both “sides” of national elections.
        •- Deliberately creates a Moocher class, which is nowhere near 47 percent, in order to secure party votes.
        •- Allowed the national debt to continually grow at a faster rate than GDP, and then claiming that net output is growing. (See Karl Denninger’s book Leverage, and his website http://www.market-ticker.org.) The U.S. economy has not grown based on the reinvestment of real surplus capital (savings) since before 1980. It is impossible for sustainable wealth creation to occur based on the emission of unbacked credit. What happened in 2008 was an economic prequake.
        •- That which cannot go on forever, won’t. History tells us that an entrenched political class will not just give up their power willingly. It is entirely possible they will turn on the citizenry, just as they did in modern democratic states like Spain, France, and Germany.
        http://www.ammoland.com/2013/02/american-caesarism-gun-control/#ixzz2M1z3PdQL

      • eddie47d

        Jeff H; Are you desperately trying to lay a quote on me when I wasn’t even near your “evidence”. Did you get your cheap thrill? [comment has been edited]

      • Frank Kahn

        Eddie? It is hopeless to point out that you are talking about yourself here? Is it also hopeless to point out your raging racism? Do I need to, again, explain how bigoted your anti-gun opinion is? Are you capable of seeing that your accusations about conservatives is equally true for liberals?

        You spew:

        “We know that Conservatives can no longer own slaves. ”

        NEITHER CAN LIBERALS, SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

        “They can no longer slaughter Indians. ”

        DAMN, AND HERE WE WAS ALL A FIXIN TO HAVE A RIGHT NICE INDIAN MASSACRE NEXT WEEKEND.

        “They can no longer deny the right to vote to women. ”

        OKAY, NOW I AM REALLY UPSET, YOU MEAN WOMEN CAN VOTE CAUSE THEY IS SMART LIKE US MEN?

        “Its like the last election where you are still trying to nurse you wounds and seek revenge on every issue.

        HUH, WHAT IS YA TALKIN ABOUT HERE?

        “You find fault with every black walking the face of the earth. ”

        CAN YA EXPLAIN THE WORD EVERY?

        “You still beg women to stay at home and be your obedient sock puppets. ”

        WHAT DOES A SOCK PUPPET DO? DO YOU STICK YOUR HAND IN IT AND MAKE IT TALK?

        “The only good Mexican American is a …well you know how that goes!

        USUALLY JUST MEXICAN, BUT NEVER HEARD THAT SENTIMENT USED ON THEM.

        “You think controlling weapons of notable death is pure evil yet take no responsibility for that carnage.

        AH, NOW WE GET TO THE POINT OF YOUR TIRADE. “NOTABLE DEATH”, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? ANY WEAPON THAT KILLS SOMEONE IS A WEAPON OF DEATH, SO NOTED. CONTROLLING THOSE WEAPONS (GUNS) IS AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION, WHICH MAKES IT ILLEGAL (NOT EVIL). TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOMEONE ELSE KILLING? NOPE, AINT GONNA HAPPEN.

        “Your full of excuses to justify your bad behavior and call it good! ”

        SPECIFY WHAT BAD BEHAVIOR YOU ARE ALLUDING TO? THE, NON-INFRINGED, RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS? MIGHT THIS BE A PERSONAL OPINION FROM YOU?

        “The ANGRY right is predictable in wishing for that old authority and wanting to be king of the hill in controlling others.”

        SO, THE DESIRE TO KEEP THE RIGHT TO NOT BE CONTROLLED BY OTHERS, IS SOMEHOW CONTROLLING OTHERS?

      • kimo3690

        FOOKEN BRILLIANT!!! Just the right about of “levity”!! Well DONE Sir LOL

      • APN

        Frank, thanks for the interpretation of eddie47d’s dribble.

        Excellent!

        APN

      • Jana

        hahahaha you made my day :)

      • eddie47d

        APN is the one being cleaver in interpretation and tripping over his own words. Now there is a Conservative sock puppet! LOL!

      • JeffH

        eddie says “Jeff H; Are you desperately trying to lay a quote on me when I wasn’t even near your “evidence”.”

        “desperately trying”? LMAO! :)

        No eddie, I used the “sack of hammers” quote…you oviously must identify with a “sack of hammers” to feel the quote was attributed to you…if the shoe fits.

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    Constantly I read good and reasonable arguments as if the writers were hoping they could sway the minds of republicrats, facists, communists, godless socialist and their ilk into right thinking. Simply put, that’s impossible because they think their arguments are the right ones. A line has been drawn between good and evil. Satan is never going to convince God to his thinking. True there are a lot of people on the fence but they fall in this category: “In the beginning of change, the patriot is a scarce and brave man, hated and scorned. When is cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for the it cost nothing to be a patriot. On each side of the fence there’s maybe one or two percent that could be called patriots to the two opposing ideologies. The father of communism Karl Marx was no fool. He taught you had to identify your enemy with things and people the people you are trying to sway find repugant or worse. In other words there’s nothing nice you can say about the residents of that District of Criminals. They’re not misguided. They’re dedicated evil people. They’re liars and looters. They prove that as they are sworn into office. They define promises the way Stalin did: Promises are like pie crust, made to be broken. The Indians defined them as speakers with forked tongues. Their not making “law”. They’re jamming edicts and decrees down our throats, and we’re taking it. Law would have pass the Constitution muster to be law, and I don’t mean the opinion of nine politicians wearing robes to work. We can read. We can define. Turn to Noah Webster’s 1828 dictionary for the American definitions of words. Lenin said: People think in words and how how they define words is WHO THEY ARE. Let us invent words and change the definition of words so we can mold the people into what we want. That’s the thinking we’re getting with the dumbing down of America. Look at some of the modern bibles. There’s not a place you can turn without finding evil and evil intentions.

  • http://midcontent ridge runner

    Is this the Huffington cheering section for communists and marxistss?

  • Hedgehog

    To all and Sundry: FACT- MUSKETS AND FLINTLOCKS WERE NOT THE ONLY “ARMS” KNOWN AT THE TIME OF THE REVOLUTION!!! Just because the progressive/liberals claim it is true does not make it so! At the time of the revolution, RIFLED firearms were in use, even in back country America, which knocks muskets on the head as they are smooth bore! FLINTLOCKS were the prevailing gun action of the time, but matchlocks, and wheel locks were also in use, as were repeating flintlocks.So much for the flintlocks only argument! Sing or listen to your own national anthem for heavens sake! “The rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.” Obviously the founding fathers and everyone else knew about bombs and rockets. Furthermore, in the argot of the time “arms or sidearms” included; swords, daggers, quarter staffs, axes, clubs, spears and don’t forget bows and arrows! Moving on, Cannon and various other forms of artillery were well known and used not only by the various governments, but also by private citizens! All educated persons of the time knew of Leonardo da Vinci, (drawings of flying machines, parachutes, etc.) and Ben Franklin at least had personal knowledge of kites and electricity! I think I’ll stop this now, I’m not writing an essay. Suffice it to say that a cursory reading of the histories of the times prove that the progressive/liberal assertions of FACT regarding the ARMS of the time are totally wrong!

    • Chester

      Well, Hedgehog, you are partially right, The rifled long guns weren’t in common usage during the revolutionary war, as not a lot of gunsmiths were equipped to rifle the barrel. The bombs referred to in “The Star Spangled Banner” were hollow cast iron balls filled with gunpowder then stoppered with a cork with a fuse in it. You made an educated guess when you cut that fuse as to just how far it would fly before it exploded, and hoped you didn’t have a fast fuse. The rockets were probably the lowest tech items in use, other than swords, bayonets, and other assorted cutlery, as they were essentially the same thing as our modern-day bottle rockets. They were a good bit larger, averaging more like ten to fifteen pounds than the half ounce to four ounces or so we use now. That item has been around since before Europe was more than semi-civilized, having been invented and used in China long before Marco Polo made his trip.

  • http://midcontent ridge runner

    Read OSI’s mental evaluations on Hilter and used these same tests on other dictators and ego manics, and compare them to Obama, and it is scarey. Hilter used rules and laws to get his way with Germany. Both had problems with their father abanding him,their mothers were fanatical task masters, both had trouble with sexual identy issues, if his wish isn’t done they act like 2 year olds, used children as non stop props, gun registrations and shorty after wards gun confiscation. Hilter had people even children spying on their family or anyone else who said a nasty opion of the leader, Obama has been recorded as he will create a hand picked panel, to have the right to arrest and jail them as long as the panel demeans necessary. History will prove these facts, Another simialarty is the mandate regulations the come from agency pukes..

  • richard brooks

    over 50% of the american public can not legally own a gun. the nra, the gop and the vast majority of gun owners support those restrictions. the 2nd does not have any exemptions or restrictions.

    if you support any restrictions, then you have effectively supported all restrictions. even the ones that will include you.

    • ibcamn

      The thing i’m wondering about is,vets with PTSD!what happens to them with guns they may already own?if all the liberals get their way,those vets will lose their weapons,and if they try to take them away,most will see it as almost taking a limb!!!…i know i would!!!

      • http://www.facebook.com/joyce.clemons Joyce Clemons

        That is a mess, that Brady/VA reporting thing. I have info if you want to message m on fb

      • Karolyn

        Is it a good idea for somebody with ptsd to own a gun? I don’t think so.

      • eddie47d

        You are correct Karolyn for suicides are high among returning Vets and guns are the choice of M.O. I don’t think Liberals want returing vets to be killing themselves and that is a disturbing problem.

      • tony newbill

        Eddie47d This Liberal thinks Vets Killing themselves is a good thing !!!!!!!! And He thinks the world population needs to be reduced too so the extremists live large in the elitist ranks of Our societies ad this kind of thinking is exactly what the founding fathers meant when they said citizens need to be able to defend themselves from Ideology even when it gets in positions of authority or has a Influential effect on the Governments ability to uphold citizens rights under the US Constitution !!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnLdgAfX9tw

      • http://www.facebook.com/joyce.clemons Joyce Clemons

        Case by case is how due process is supposed to work,, not wholesale cattle car. (Unless you’d like that changed, just repeal that Bill of Rights pesky item) The Brady “mental defective” clause (isn’t that hideous..like a dark ages branding iron) is running the show at the VA, and the VA subsection for the eval and report process also thinks it sucks, but they are stuck with it. If specialized mental health treatment is meant to be rehabilitative, tattooing ‘defective’ on a hero’s ass is counterproductive to the process. If someone is given crap for ordinary due process and told that it is ice cream, that is against everything that being American means. So much for the Purple Heart. There are people in Congress looking for safe solutions that solve the matter. There are other people in Congress that put us all ( I mean ALL, as in 300,000,000 )on the cattle car. This reality can be applied to liberty concerns of any person, no matter what crumbles their cookie. If they don’t take any of us seriously inside the Beltway, but just as Useful idiots every 4th November, there is a remedy. You can read all about it at the National Archive. Bring a magnifier.

      • Jana

        You are so right. Not everyone that has PTSD is a potential murderer. Sometimes they have just seen too much and need some time to unwind and reintegrate back into civilian life as well as their families’ lives..
        Many times one of the problems with those suffering PTSD happens to be the stupid Liberals who make stupid remarks about how the war was so unnecessary and based on lies and their time over in whatever country was a waste. How many times have we heard of people booing some of our soldiers coming home from war. TOTALLY INEXCUSABLE!
        Thankfully we had a lot of people lining up at the airports clapping and shouting hurrah’s for our returning soldiers.

  • Don 2

    Universal Background Checks = Universal Gun Registration = Government Confiscation

    Watch the video: http://www.nra.org

    Benefits of Gun Control:
    Concentration Camps
    Killing Fields
    Gulags

    • http://omanuel.wordpress.com omanuel

      Regretfully, Don 2, I agree with you.

      America now faces the “1984″ that George Orwell described in 1946, when he was dying of tuberculosis but ignored his own health and moved from London to the forsaken Scottish island of Jura to warn the public of the approaching tyranny that he thought we would recognize in 1984.

      Most scientists did not recognize world tyranny until Climategate e-mails and documents were released in late November 2009.

      http://omanuel.wordpress.com/about/#comment-2204

  • Grandpa frog

    Magazine (clips) restriction? What happened to Gregory, and his illegal clip on TV?

    The liberals have no real intention to exercise this enforcement. Simply a way leading to further restrictions. A 10 round clip today, a 7 round clip/magazine tomorrow, then a 5 round magazine, and so on.

    Assault rifles today, then assault pistols tomorrow. Then more scary attachments like scopes, etc..

    Will the liberals be working on the interpretation of the 1st Amendment, with a new definition of “abridging the freedom of speech” (Nancy Pelosi). “Separation of church and state” has already replaced “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion”.

    Grandpa frog

  • Bud

    Help shut the control freaks down. 2nd amendment Americans need to stick together to defeat the left on this very important issue. You can join the NRA with a lifetime membership for $300 until the end of February. The usual price is $1,000. Just call the NRA at 888-678-7894. If you have thought about joining the NRA this is a perfect day to do it.

    • Alex

      Wayne LaPierre and his NRA Flying Monkeys do not mind when the blood of our children courses the gutter—to the gun-addicted, that blood smeels like “Freedumb”.

      You know, if the gunnuts could figure out a way to liquify their guns they would get on the mainline and shoot them right into their veins, nodding off in their trailers as visions of hollow-points danced in their heads…

      • Alex

        ooops…. ‘smeels’ should read ‘smells’

      • Jana

        Alex,
        It wasn’t the gun’s fault that the children were killed, it was the idiot that was mentally ill and his mother who was aware of this fact who was in the process of doing something about it. Only she was dragging her feet and everyone paid for it.
        When a drunk gets in his car and drives, then kills someone in an accident, its not the car’s fault!
        Just like when you say something stupid which we see quite often we know its not your computer’s fault. It is the one typing on it.

    • eddie47d

      The NRA is cold and callous and Sandy Hook proved that. You might as well have had Leerch speaking for them instead of LaPierre. The NRA helps write state laws such as in Florida which allows just about anyone to own. They have enshrined the numerous loopholes across this country which even allow the mentally ill to easily purchase their weapon of choice. We should call the NRA the Big Easy which allows criminals to Easily find their mark!

      • Don 2

        Universal Background Checks = Universal Gun Registration = Universal Government Confiscation

        Watch the video: http://www.nra.org

        See what old Chuck Schumer(Communist – NY) is really up to!

      • http://www.facebook.com/joyce.clemons Joyce Clemons

        Amazing how individuals go on (and on, and on) without factual knowledge. Everything from the exterior appearance of semi-automatics and 22 rifles (cosmetics), the current legislative application and judicially determined limits of federal mandates on the states, the stated positions and functions of firearms citizen interest groups, the spuriously labeled “mental defectives”…it goes on and on with fallacies, hyperbole and emotionalism, It amazes me when a person who says they prize choice, self-determination, privacy and access on reproductive matters, can turn around and say that another person ought to forego choice, self-determination, privacy and access on self-defense matters. If issue advocates want common ground, the venue should be personal, individual responsibility and accountability. Which goes beyond the rudimentary for the law compliant and the scofflaw alike. Non-compliance ranges from civil disobedience as an advocacy tool, to foolish defiance, and all the way to felony penalty, atrocity and death. When people get all lathered up with emotion, they can feel self righteous all the way to the clinic, the ward, the pen or the grave. Then it is pathetically too late to say, “what did I do?”
        I mourn for innocents powerfully, privately without great public display, whether they are debrained by scalpels and suction, or by bullets. Butchery is evil. A bankrupt nation needs all hands to clean house. Not willing to feed a black market for a knee jerk whim. Peddle crazy somewhere else.

      • tony newbill
      • tony newbill

        Heres some more of that emotionalism …… So some how a 2 cent per dollar cut to Federal Spending is going to cause us this ??? Sounds to me the President could put some caps on Pay in the Government and make up that loss , I mean Washington DC these days is referred to as BOOM TOWN so why is it that these people who are working for We the People should be Richly Rewarded with Our Financial pain and suffering from the Debt they cannot seem to find a solution too other than causing us MORE Pain and suffering with More taxation as the cure to sustaining their Richly reward for being elected ????
        What was that old saying , ” Once the People figure out that they can enrich themselves with the Peoples Money Democracy is over ” ? This is done with Populous politics and I think thats what reelected our president is it not ???

        http://thehill.com/video/administration/284713-napolitano-cuts-will-make-us-more-vulnerable-to-terrorist-attack

      • eddie47d

        Conservatives get emotional over abortion and want to stop it and Liberals get emotional over gun deaths and want to stop it. Sounds like an equal appeal for common sense in lowering the death rate. All abortions won’t be stopped with draconian Conservative anti-abortion laws and all gun deaths won’t be stopped by writing laws that leave someone defenseless. For the sanctity of life common ground needs to be found.

      • JeffH

        eddie says “The NRA is cold and callous and Sandy Hook proved that.”

        Really? Just what was it the NRA did the NRA do that was “cold and callous”?

        Please, entertain some of us with your thoughts on that statement…no talking points or generalities…and be specific please.

        While widely recognized today as a major political force and as America’s foremost defender of Second Amendment rights, the NRA has, since its inception, been the premier firearms education organization in the world.

        During World War II, the association offered its ranges to the government, developed training materials, encouraged members to serve as plant and home guard members and developed training materials for industrial security. NRA members even reloaded ammunition for those guarding war plants. Incidentally, the NRA’s call to help arm Britain in 1940 resulted in the collection of more than 7,000 firearms for Britain’s defense against potential invasion by Germany (Britain had virtually disarmed itself with a series of gun control laws enacted between World War I and World War II).

        In 1949, the NRA, in conjunction with the state of New York, established the first hunter education program. Hunter Education courses are now taught by state fish and game departments across the country and Canada and have helped make hunting one of the safest sports in existence.

        The Youth Hunter Education Challenge (YHEC), a program that allows youngsters to build on the skills they learned in basic hunter education courses. YHECs are now held in 43 states and three Canadian provinces, involving an estimated 40,000 young hunters.

        Law enforcement training was next on the priority list for program development. Although a special police school had been reinstated at Camp Perry in 1956, NRA became the only national trainer of law enforcement officers with the introduction of its NRA Police Firearms Instructor certification program in 1960. Today, there are more than 10,000 NRA-certified police and security firearms instructors.

        In civilian training, the NRA continues to be the leader in firearms education. Over 55,000 Certified Instructors now train about 750,000 gun owners a year. Courses are available in basic rifle, pistol, shotgun, muzzleloading firearms, personal protection, and even ammunition reloading. Additionally, nearly 2,800 Certified Coaches are specially trained to work with young competitive shooters. Since the establishment of the lifesaving Eddie Eagle® Gun Safety Program in 1988, more than 21 million pre-kindergarten to sixth grade children have learned that if they see a firearm in an unsupervised situation, they should “STOP. DON’T TOUCH. LEAVE THE AREA. TELL AN ADULT.” Over the past seven years, Refuse To Be A Victim® seminars have helped more than 15,000 men and women develop their own personal safety plan using common sense strategies.

      • Nick Czudy

        Jeff. I thank you for listing all of the good things that the NRA has done over the last number of decades and that is admirable. They should keep doing these sorts of things.
        What I have seen in the last few years has been a total protection of the rights for the gun manufacturers to make as many guns as possible.
        What was a cold and callous response to the Sandy Hook tragedy was the answer to arm the teachers and have more guns. There are already 300 million plus guns in the USA for a population of about 345 million, which I assume include kids and babies. So that will make for multiple guns per household. It has not seemed to lower the rate of crime and murder. It has increased the amount of suicide, as it is much easier for someone to off themselves with a gun, then trying to do themselves in with a knife or hit themselves over the head with a hammer. Many of our teens have taken their lives from trivial trials and tribulations in [progressing to adulthood.

        With all of these good things that the NRA have done, why did they spearhead the law that prevented the CDC from collecting any gun use and crime information? I fail to see how this was helpful to Americans, to prevent them from knowing how many deaths have been occurring. I can only see it as a communist attempt to keep information from Americans so that they could continue their quest for more guns. Who is the communists here? Information is power. The lack of it is also power. They spearheaded also taking away power from the ATF. No wonder it has been difficult to prosecute the existing laws.
        That has been one of your and the NRA’s favorite talking points. So lets give the authority back to the CDC and the ATF to study and disseminate all of this important information to all Americans and not keep us in the dark.
        Lets have Wayne LaPierre represent all NRA members and not just the gun lobby.

      • Don 2

        Nick Czudy,

        How does one do themself in, in a manner that is easier than a gun, a knife, or a hammer? One simply grabs themself a bottle of wine, or a quart of whiskey, starts the car in a closed garage, opens the car windows, and good night Irene. No garage, no problem; a hose is connected to the tailpipe, and run through a cracked open window into the interior of the car. Easy, painless, and least messy.

        So all this crappola that you guys harp about not having a gun available will reduce suicides is just that, crappola.

      • kimo3690

        LOL Indeed MY Friend WELL SAID!!

      • Nick Czudy

        Don,
        There is currently a court case in the news that a woman stabbed her boy friend many times and killed him. I am sure you know what I am talking about.
        She talked about taking her own life and said that when she cut her wrist it hurt too much and she changed her mind. The same thing happens when someone goes into a garage and tried carbon monoxide death. they get sick and give up and rum out to get some fresh air.
        The thing with a gun is that when they make that irrational decision to kill themselves with a gun, then they only have to pull the trigger and any remorse or change of mind is no longer available to them. It is over.
        These statistics are documented and I saw them in the last few weeks on some of the news channels.
        So it is definitely easier to off yourself with a gun than most other ways to kill yourself.
        regards. nick Cz

      • Bob666

        Yo Don,
        What if he does not own a car or a grage to put it in? having a motorcycle and an open carport would just suck for doing your self in.

        And those freaken tree huggers with their plug-in hybrids just take all the fun out of doing yourself in!

      • Bruce

        he tried to kill himself by running his electric car in a closed garage….lost another tree hugger lol

      • Jana

        Nick C,
        But she still stabbed him many many times and she still murdered him. He is dead.

      • Nick Czudy

        Jana
        That is correct. He is certainly dead.

        The point that I was making was that she said that she tried to commit suicide. When she took a knife and cut into her wrist, it hurt too much and she changed her mind.
        If she decided to use a gun, her body would have been lying beside her boyfriends and there would not have been a long court case. One has a hard time to change their mind after pulling a triggeron a gun. :)

      • Jana

        Bob666,
        If he only has a motorcycle all he has to do is get on it sans the helmet and start speeding and run it into a tree. There are always ways to do yourself in if you are serious.
        The girl he was talking about wasn’t serious, she was just seeking sympathy.

      • JeffH

        Nick, the CDC? Wow…In 1995, Wayne LaPierre, NRA executive vice president, told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: “The problem that I see with what the CDC is doing is that they are not doing medicine, they’re doing politics. And they shouldn’t be doing politics.”

        He added, “There is no medical evidence that if you go and buy a gun, you’re going to get hurt. In fact, you can make a pretty good case if you go out and buy a gun, you may be able to save your life.”

        Dr. Miguel Faria Jr., a former professor of neurosurgery and editor of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia. The CDC, he said, started from the premise “that guns were bad, had no benefits, that guns and bullets were pathogens that needed to be eradicated or at least severely restricted from the civilian population. It was mostly political junk science.”

        Bob Barr, a former congressman from Georgia said “To me, firearms and guns is nothing CDC should be involved in”

        Gun advocates say they are not opposed to research into gun-related violence, so long as it is objective. They say research sponsored by the CDC was one-sided, because it ignored evidence that having a gun can protect people and prevent harm.

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT ASSAULT ANYONE USING ANY FIREARM.

        ~300 MILLION Americans DIDN’T SHOOT anyone AT ALL. Not even by accident.

        Join us in telling them to STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT

        STOP IT

        STOP IT NOW

      • kimo3690

        GET SUM JeffH!!! Well said!!! TY

      • Nick Czudy

        JeffH, haha the NRA is not using its propaganda for political purposes.

        What the CDC was doing was to track and study gun deaths and injuries. Their purpose was not to justify uses of guns or to make conclusions of how to interpret the results of the studies. But the NRA paid, no let me say bribed, many politicians to ban, even the study of gun crime, so that it would not get in the way of furthering more gun sales.
        The politicians can make the decisions.
        It was also convenient that congress also took all of the power away from the ATF to regulate the gun laws. Then the hypocrites complained that there are enough laws already, just that they are not being enforced. Dah will no wonder. They had their ways in the past. it is time that this type of info and enforcement needs to be gathered and then the politicians can make the right decisions.

      • JeffH

        Nick, I get it that you believe the propaganda and despise the NRA and I get it that you trust government agencies like the CDC to do non-political studies and that you even trust the ATF to do unbiased work.

        Well, I don’t and if you pay any attention at all to what goes on, past and present, under either political parties in power you would know that we the people do not get fair and unbiased opinions, just opinions based on agendas.

        A bribe? That is a joke, something I would exoect someone like you to say…it’s called politics and if you can’t play with the big boys you might as well not play at all.

        Now tell me again about Operation Fast & Furious, you must remember that…the one where the AG/DOJ and the BATFE forced gun shops to comply with them and let guns go into Mexico…and caused the death of Brian Terry?

        I fully support the work efforts of the NRA because without them, there would be a total ban on guns and ammunition and the 2nd Amendment would become moot and there would be more violent crimes because the criminals would still have guns an would not hesitate to assault and violate law abiding citizens and there property. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.

        The government is not your friend nor are the Democrats or the Republicans. Don’t allow them to play you like a fool because that is what they are doing.

      • Nick Czudy

        Hi Jeff. You said…”I fully support the work efforts of the NRA because without them, there would be a total ban on guns and ammunition and the 2nd Amendment would become moot and there would be more violent crimes because the criminals would still have guns an would not hesitate to assault and violate law abiding citizens and there property. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.”
        This is the big lie that the NRA uses always to put fear into the heads of fervent gun owners when that will never happen. There can be stiffer laws that might make it more difficult for criminals to buy guns that will not make all guns illegal.
        it is in the NRA’s interest to keep trying to fear monger you all and you are eating it up.
        Last night the latest poll showed that 61% of Americans want some kind of additional gun controls. Only 4% wanted fewer laws. I think that the 4% is probably the few in the 4 million NRA members that buy into LaPieres’s “they are going to come for our guns” propaganda. regards Nick Cz

      • R.F.

        Just as a comparison up here in Canada we have no Second Amendment. Farmers and hunters have guns which I suppose they register somewhere. Fact is city folks like me don’t even know what the rules are if any. We do have criminals who use guns from time to time during robberies and there are shootings (usually drug related) from time to time with guns brought over the border from the U.S. but for the most part we don’t worry much about guns or no guns and we remain a pretty wonderful democratic society. I can tell you there is not a single spot in my city where I would be afraid to walk even at night. Frankly Canadians watch with bewilderment as we learn of the constant string of mass murders that goes on in the U.S. And the fact some suggest the solution is even GREATER numbers of guns and not even a background check on purchasers really makes our jaws drop. A friend of mine just returned from Austin, Texas and said that in Austin she saw folks walking around with guns holstered at the hips on city streets! Like the old west I guess. Or maybe this is some kind of macho type thing. But for sure we have a different culture than you folks!!!

      • Nick Czudy

        R.F., You are absolutely right. It is the gun culture that makes the USA the crime and gun capital of the world. It has something to do with the civil war and the south losing. They are always on the edge of starting a war all over again. It is a shame that they cannot live and let live and go on in life. This tension is dangerous and then one day, something snaps and they will go out and kill innocent people.
        It would be a better place if there were no guns at all.

      • Don 2

        Nick,

        I have to disagree with your assertion that one gets so sick from the fumes that they run out to get fresh air.

        The first real life knowledge of this is a 17-year old kid that I know who along with his girlfriend, almost accidently bit the dust while parking in a car with a leaky exhaust system. Fortunately, they were close to it, but did not fall asleep, but they did both end up in the E.R. with oxygen being administered. Neither one had been bothered by the exhaust fumes until after the girl got home, and passed out from the lack of oxygen, and her parents called the boys residence to say that she was being taken to the E.R. The side effects on the boy were giddiness and eventually a major headache. Neither had been drinking alcoholic beverages that night.

        The second real life case involved a couple camping in a tent, who brought their little charcoal burner inside the tent, and out of the rain. When they were found the next morning, he was dead, and she was close to it, but she did survive. She was lying in some of her own vomit, partially outside of the tent, but the fumes did not make her get up and run out of the tent. The dead guy was a known career burglar, so as far as we were concerned, no loss to society.

        Like I said before…..a big bottle of wine…..changes everything.

        Snd we didn’t even cover stepping in front of a truck going 55 m.p.h., or jumping off of a bridge or building, or any number of other quick ways to end it w/o involving a gun. By the way, I do know a guy who shot himself in the head with a .22 cal. in a suicide attempt. Guess what? He survived, albeit somewhat more screwed up than before. So, a gun doesn’t necessarily guarantee the intended results.

      • Nick Czudy

        Don, you are absolutley right about carbon monoxide being an odorless and colorless deadly gas. But there is a lot of nasty toxic chemicals in car exhaust and if you just put a hose into your car from your exhaust, you would not only have the odorless carbon monoxide, you would have the nasty fumes as well. It will make you cough and convulse.

        You are right about the space heaters and such as they are silent and also give off a lot of carbon monoxide.
        Extremely dangerous are the space heaters that burn propane. The instructions always instruct one to have an open window.
        Yes jumping outside of a tall building or bridge is also fast and fatal. But if you are feeling suicidal, if you were able to go to the cupboard and get the gun, or have to drive over to a tall building and gain access to the roof or a balcony, I think that it would be more expedient and easy to grab the gun.
        I bet you there are many more ways to do yourself in. From what I have read, the outright winner is suicides by guns. That seems to be the biggest danger from keeping a gun in a house. Even if it was under lock and key, it would be probable that a child or a teenager, if distraught, would know where dad keeps the key or knows the combination.
        regards
        Nick Cz

      • eddie47d

        Plain and simple the NRA is not your grandfathers NRA. They have become wicked and dangerous!

      • JeffH

        eddie, any Tom, Dick or Harry can say something stupid about the NRA or anything else…it’s the evidence you present that lends credibility to what you say…you can’t and won’t present any solid evidence…thus the reason why you have no cedibility.

        POLLY WANT A CRACKER? baaarrraaaccckkkkk!

      • JeffH

        Nick, your answers have become comical…clearly you’ve bought into the anti-gun progressive’s national propaganda campaign to demonize the NRA any way they can.

        I live in California and I have been fighting the anti-gun and gun confiscation legislators for over 30 years. The history of the pro-gun grabbers in government are well documented.

        The law is the law, the Constitution is the Constitution. If ONE local mayor or police chief can decide what the Second Amendment means, it opens the door to tyranny where ANY mayor or police chief can say what the Second Amendment means.

        One recent example is the unconsitutional confiscation that took place in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina. New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Police Superintendent P. Eddie Compass unleashed a wave of confiscations with these chilling words:
        “No one will be able to be armed. We will take all weapons. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns.”
        Thousands of firearms were then confiscated from law-abiding gun owners. The police gave no paperwork or receipts for those guns. They just stormed in and seized them.

        You have seen this brand of abuse of freedom in the history books in the pages about days of gun confiscations leading to the terror of Stalin, Mao and Hitler. But you have never in a million years think it could happen in America.
        Well, it can and it did. And it will happen again unless we take action today.

        These are just a few recent examples of where Gun confiscation legislation has been proposed in the states: Missouri, California, Missouri, NY, NJ, Washington, Illinois, Michigan.

        When the progressives say that it can’t happen here, you now know for sure that they are lying. If the people are disarmed, the Constitution is only as good as the liars that disarmed them.

        Criminals prefer unarmed victims! Government tyrants prefer unarmed citizens.

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT ASSAULT ANYONE USING ANY FIREARM.

        ~300 MILLION Americans DIDN’T SHOOT anyone AT ALL. Not even by accident.

        Join us in telling them to STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT

        STOP IT

        STOP IT NOW

      • Nick Czudy

        Jeff. You said…”Nick, your answers have become comical…clearly you’ve bought into the anti-gun progressive’s national propaganda campaign to demonize the NRA any way they can.”
        You maybe think that the government is lying and has an evil plan to take all guns, the NRA has an equally evil plan to prevent any restrictions on any gun or ammo sales so that the gun manufacturers will have increased sales and more money into the pockets of the NRA.
        They also had an evil plan to prevent any gun statistics from being gathered, to be able to cause the citizens of to think about gun regulations. the Colbert Report had a very funny skit on that fact 2 days ago. From what I see, is that the NRA does not represent its 5 million members as much as it is a shill for the gun manufacturers.

        As far as your use of the millions that were killed from Mao and Stalin, you give the cause of the population not having guns.
        Be clear the ,millions of deaths occurred from starvation and not guns or lack of guns.
        The peasants and farmers never had guns , they would not have spent any money to buy them, and they were not available to them and even if they had them, they would not and could not stand up against a squad of soldiers that came for their grain and food. It was the evil plan of Stalin and Mao to take this food and trade it for Industrial machinery to get industrialized. Too bad if there was not enough food for the people to eat. It did not fit his financial plans to grow the country. They had total control of all media and news and this kept the people in ignorance. This was a huge travesty, but to try and make this a cause for having guns is a false irrelevant issue. China and Russia was not the USA that grew up with guns in every house. very few of almost none of the peasants or farmers had guns.

        America is unique in the world as a gun culture. I understand that it is an important part of our culture. That is understood by all politicians on both sides. That does not mean that we cannot make some relevant changes to improve some obvious problems.
        It is also abundantly obvious that we cannot just take Wayne LaPierre’s opinion as speaking for the majority of Americans. He is like a horse with blinders on and is only concerned with total and unrestricted growth of the gun industry.

      • JeffH

        Nick, it has become abundantly clear you don’t have any idea of what you speak other than you are anti-gun and anti-NRA, nor do you even have the remotest clue about America’s crony political system and how it works against the Constitution, freedom and liberty. You being a progressive explains it all.

        Your trust in politicians to “do the right thing” and “make the right call” is totally laughable…yeah, right and pigs can fly too!

        sheeple – definition
        1. People unable to think for themselves. Followers. Lemmings. Those with no cognitive ablilities of their own.

        2. A individual that forfits their right to choose in favor of inclusion in groupthink and what is viewed as popular or elete group. Allowing the influences of different forms of media and group members to hold great sway in the formation of attitudes, behavoir and opinion.
        To accept the group mentaility and opinion as fact without examination.
        Not only to be told what to do, but accepting the paradigm of thought as absolute thereby removing the weight of personal responsibility in the making of decisions.

        3. The hoi polloi. Those who follow triends blindly. Portmanteau of “sheep” and “people”, derived as sheep follow their flock and shepherd seemingly mindlessly.

        I’m sorry for you as you seem to be a nice guy.

      • Nick Czudy

        Hi Jeff.
        I am not anti-gun. I am not pro gun. I am against the NRA. They have not done anything positive in the last two years, since I have been following their activities. Keep your guns, just do not wave it in my face. Keep it in your pants.

        Since you are Republican and right wing, I do not blame you for not trusting politicians.Since you are only used to your GOP compatriots , you form your opinion from them.
        They follow the stereotype of lying, cheating, kissing babies and and then stealing their candy. They seem to only do things for political reasons and not for the benefit of the country. I am so happy that they have did not get voted in to the white house. We just need to kick them out of congress and the country will be OK.

        From what I have seen, Barack Hussein Obama as you like to call him, has been working tirelessly to get us out of this recession and get the country going. I have seen that the GOP do not keep promises. Look at MacConnell with breaking his promise to not filibuster. Look at the loons in congress that seem to keep self inflicting pain on all of us and preventing us from getting out of the recession.
        If the tea party and all of you are not interested in governing our country, they get out of the way and let someone else do it that cares. This latest sequester fiasco is another misguided attempt to subvert our economy.
        Isn’t this come under the category of traitorous activity and shouldn’t people that purposely undermine the good of the country need to be prosecuted?

      • AmericanGirl

        You are gonna need it……..
        http://joeforamerica.com/win-a-free-ar-15/

  • Alex

    Why do Fright Wingers deconstruct the Second Amendment SO OFTEN—parsing every word to suit whatever it is THEY think the slaveowners had in mind—yet NEVER address the VERY simple phrase “Well-Regulated Militia”?

    Those who are against background checks, waiting periods, capacity limits, etc clearly do NOT support the Second Amendment.

    The beautiful thing is this: the voting public is becoming increasingly young and female, two groups, among many others, who are leaving the Reich Wing GOP (and religion & Faux Noose!!) in droves! There is very little doubt that November of 2016 will see us elect our first woman president—the numbers don’t lie—and she will NOT be a Republican. The traditional shot-calling role of the White Christian male will continue to diminish in this country–Thank God! We have been TERRIBLE arbiters of justice, morals, and taste.

    The young people of the world in general and our wretched nation in particular, certainly aided by the access to information afforded by the internet, are more tolerant of variant culture and races, less accepting of traditional gender-specific roles, and more concerned with healing the environment than amassing wealth.

    We WILL see a brighter, Socialist future as Science trumps superstition and the failings of Capitalism become clear to an informed and disobedient populace.

    And we WILL see the bloody Second Amendment marched to the ditch and shot for its crimes against humanity. In time, the idea of people walking around with guns, taking them to church, to the bar, or to Yosemite, will become as strange a notion as slavery, cigaret smoking, or Noah’s Ark.

    Check the numbers: the voting populace will ONLY become increasingly LESS White, LESS male, LESS Christian. That means things are looking good….

    • Hedgehog

      Dear Alex, don’t look now, but your racism is showing (anti white), as is your chauvinism (anti male) and your religious intolerance (anti Christian).

      • eddie47d

        He sounds like you Hedgehog in your Conservative spin on everything but invokes the Liberal version. You are both alittle extreme in your views.

    • http://personalliberty 300 win. mag

      Alex, do you wake up with that much hate or do you have to work at it? Why are woman getting their chl’s at record numbers? I am just wondering how old you are?

    • Grandpa frog

      The term “well regulated militia” was very precisely defined by the writers of the Constitution. Your problem is that you don’t know your history. You simply want the 2nd Amendment to mean what you want it mean. But I doubt the facts and truth with set you free of your ignorance.

    • Frank Kahn

      Alex, if our young and women are really as stupid as you are and put themselves in the role you perceive, it will be very sad and tragic that they all die. We are not talking about talking here, we are talking WAR. I defend your right to be wrong, I defend your right to speak what you think, I will use deadly force against anyone, you included, that physically tries to deprive me of my God given rights.

      You, erroneously think that is extremism, and some kind of conservative white male superiority complex. Might you take a close honest look at what you just said? Might you see the absolute totalitarian control freak you show yourself to be? Can you see the insane, mindless, incomprehensibly wrong ideas you spout? The second amendment has caused what? Was I in a coma when the bill of rights jumped out of its case and slaughtered thousands of people? Was the second amendment exercising its first amendment rights and screaming “kill them kill them all”? Did the bill of rights use a scary looking assault weapon?

      God already has a specific plan for you, do you know it? Do you know what he says in the Bible about your thoughts?

      Do you honestly believe that killing babies is okay? Do you believe it is moral to accept homosexual perversion? And, you applaud the death of Christianity? I am sure you are not concerned about your soul then. If it is okay to go against God’s laws, then there is no law we cannot go against. Extreme? Is my statement more extreme than yours about denying the word of God?

      Just because someone wants to disobey THE LAW (Gods law), does not make it right. If I decide it should be acceptable to kill someone for calling me a name, should that be legal? If I say using the term white male is racist, should it be illegal? Where do YOU draw the line, where do you DECREE that it is RIGHT or WRONG?

      • kimo3690

        LOVIN IT FRANK!! Get Sum!!! Well Said as USUAL!!! TY

      • Right Brain Thinker

        kimo3690 marks himself as one of the mindless when he says,
        “LOVIN IT FRANK!! Get Sum!!! Well Said as USUAL!!! TY”
        Keep listening kimo (or are you one of those who encourages Frank because you really like to laugh at him and what he says?)

        Frank has, as usual, given us a flood of OPINION and some wonderful strutting and chest beating, as in:

        I will use deadly force
        God given rights
        erroneously think that is extremism
        insane, mindless, incomprehensibly wrong ideas you spout
        absolute totalitarian control freak you show yourself to be

        Since Frank has offered only OPINIONS and slogans, I will let him slide here, beyond pointing that out. Frank has come over to this thread because he has once again “abandoned the field” of discussion and admitted defeat on the “killer science” thread. I don’t want to deny him ALL fun. As long as he doesn’t start talking ignorance about things scientific, I will let him play.

        However, it DOES appear that Frank is asserting yet another area of expertise when he “preaches” to us, saying, “God already has a specific plan for you, do you know it? Do you know what he says in the Bible about your thoughts?”

        Since you asked, Frank. No, I don’t know God’s plan for me, and I don’t know what he says in the bible. How about talking to us about that? Since religion is all opinion anyway, you shouldn’t be able to do much harm there when you spout yours.

      • Frank Kahn

        Maybe there was a glitch in the posting system, I have not responded to you here, it was Alex.

        I do not know Gods plan for him, only God knows that.

        I did not abandon, or give up or lose on the other thread.

        You will continue to spew your thoughtless insanity no matter what is said.

        You still demean everyone, even a very well studied scientist.

        You are the one that only gives opinion not me.

        Faith is not the same as an opinion.

        You have the opinion that you are intelligent. Unfortunately, we seem to be lacking in anyone agreeing with your personal assessment of your own intellect.

        The only area of expertise you excel in is arrogance.

        I find it fascinating that you always put people down as right wing nut jobs when they know more science than yourself.

        Did you even bother to read the documents O. Manuel published? If you did, did you understand the concept of neutrino repulsion? Could you follow the reasoning about the heavy metal concentrations and how they are consistent with local creation as opposed to some SN occurrence in a distant part of the galaxy? Maybe, as in GW, you have your own personal opinion that does not match with his scientific evidence making it pure right wing nonsense.

        Still needing to push your opinion against facts? Were you also a bully in school as a student?

  • http://omanuel.wordpress.com omanuel

    Ben,

    World leaders followed the advice of scientists, who mistakenly concluded after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed in Aug 1956: There is no God ! Mankind was therefore not endowed with unalienable rights to self-governance.

    The best available experimental data from the Nuclear and Space Age show that:

    Every atom in the Solar System is still connected to its Creator.

    http://tinyurl.com/ac2h396

    With kind regards,
    - Oliver K. Manuel
    PhD Nucloear Chemistry
    Postdoc Space Physics
    Former NASA Principal
    Investigator for Apollo

    PS – I hope to find how to make the hyperlinks to research papers work later today.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      omanuel is here again, cluttering up another thread with wing nuttery that has NOTHING to do with the topic under discussion. Go away, omanuel.

      • Jana

        Right Brain nonThinkder,
        If you don’t like some of the posts on here why don’t YOU go away!!!

      • Charlie

        R B T,,,
        Omanuel just told you that your left brain is still connected to God,,,but,,,from lack of use it does not function any more… If money was brains , you don’t have enough to pay attention …

      • matforce

        RBT, I’m sure they like it much, much better when they can enjoy the sounds of their right wingnut echo chamber.

        Behold the intellectually lazy, hoodwinked, hothead “patriots,” who swallow, hook line and sinker (no fact check, snopes, or honest research for these countrymen!), the GOP propaganda machine’s use of a type of syntax of deception and trumped up charges that would have these “patriots” take up arms against America the Beautiful, once the land of opportunity, expected to uphold the highest standard of living of any nation since the mythical Atlantis, and do so much with so little (30 years of the lowest tax rates since before the Great Depression (Grover Norquist pledge to “starve the beast”).

        Now, after 30 years of consolidation of wealth at the top, like we haven’t seen in 100 years, and with money running out, the Plutocratic class trumps up these non-issues to distract these same gullible, hot-heads from the fact that the GOP licks the boots of the Plutocracy, perpetrators of the middle class dismantlement; brick by brick.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Well! My comment elicits three responses. Jana says nothing of importance, nor does Charlie (but he uses more words).

        Matforce makes an intelligent comment, especially, “Now, after 30 years of consolidation of wealth at the top like we haven’t seen in 100 years, and with money running out, the Plutocratic class trumps up these non-issues to distract these same gullible, hot-heads from the fact that the GOP licks the boots of the Plutocracy, perpetrators of the middle class dismantlement; brick by brick”.

        That’s one out of three or 33.3% intelligent comments, two out of three or 66.7% deluded

        (and omanuel is still a crackpot who wastes our time)

      • Frank Kahn

        So nuclear physics is a crackpot science? Must be to deep for you then. Not simple science like what you taught in high school?

      • Jana

        No Brainer,
        You are right, I said nothing of importance because I was copying what you said. You never say much of anything. That was the POINT!!

  • nc

    Ben, we know your arguments. We also know the problem is large numbers of people being killed with guns. How about a column from you on the way to fix that problem! You seem so ready each week to announce what is best for the people we know that the answer is at the tip of your tongue! You do see that we have a problem, don’t you? NO?? NO PROBLEM AT ALL????

    • angelwannabe

      nc, Where are your solutions?__You can’t fix stupidity or the mentally ill. If those who are hell bent on slaugther, don’t kill with a gun it’ll be something else. In the Oklahoma bombing they used fertilizer. If you think more regulation and further background checks are gonna stop someone from snapping, then move to the utopian land you seek. Gun registration is for one thing, thing and one thing only, so the Feds know where the guns are, that if and when they confiscate our guns, it makes it easier to know where to go!
      Gun controls are just that___CONTROL!

      • Grandpa frog

        I remember a study done comparing the homicide rates between Seattle (USA) and Vancouver (Canada). The article gloated that Vancouver (with restrictive gun laws) had a much lower gun homicide rate than Seattle. It was only if you read the whole article that it was revealed that the homicide rates were the same. I.E., if you can’t use guns, then knives, baseball bats, poison, etc. will be used.

      • eddie47d

        Angel makes it sound like if guns are controlled the bad guys will run to the feed stores and buy up fertilizers. I highly doubt that! Mental illness is an important solution but no one wants to fund treatment. That makes it a dead issue/solution unless you are willing to follow through with money.

      • angelwannabe

        Grandpa Frog, Clinton had a assault gun ban in what was it, 94, (correct me if I’m wrong on the date,) 10 years later it went down in a sunset clause and why?_ facts are, it DID NO GOOD! It made no difference in crime stats/

      • Don 2

        Eddie47d says, “Mental illness is an important solution, but no one wants to fund treatment. That makes it a dead issue/solution unless you are willing to follow through with the money.”

        However, money is not an issue when the Communist left wants to have government conduct universal background checks and maintain records, have government mandate universal gun registration and maintain records, have government officials confiscate guns, have government conduct background checks when purchasing ammunition, or send state police or sheriff deputies to inspect firearms in the home on an annual basis, such as was introduced in various states.

        How come the Communist Left like eddie have no problem with the expenses involved in taking Second Amendment rights away from law-abiding citizens, but they do have a problem with spending money to treat mental illness?

      • nc

        Anglewannabe, bombs are used several times a decade at most! More than 2 people being killed at one time in a shooting in a single year?? You give me the figure?

      • angelwannabe

        You libs cry and complain about guns & the blood shed they cause, but think nothing of your support of millions of abortions (Now you give me the numbers, I know them) payed for with our damned tax dollars, and you call it Pro-choice__The Pro choice in only in your favor, the tax payer has NO CHOICE when its stolen through taxes!__Not all of us who own guns are killers, if you want a gun free zone, then I’d suggest moving to England, Australia, pick one__But remember this, it seems the “Gun Free Zones here in America have a different meaning__Human Target practice, with no hope of return fire!!!

      • eddie47d

        Angel: It didn’t do any good because it was weak and wasn’t enforced. There were so many assault type weapons out there that were grandfathered in the choices were limitless.That’s was like putting a band aid on wet skin.

      • eddie47d

        Don2; Nice try! I never said that and I do want more funds for mental health so enough of your cheap comments.

      • Don 2

        eddie47d,

        I never said so either.

        Pressure getting to you today Commie?

      • eddie47d

        “they do have trouble not finding funds for mental health” Yes you said it!

    • Capitalist at Birth

      My solution is to kill them. What is yours? Unless it is to allow those of us who understand and support the Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights, to be disarmed you have none, do you. Conceal carry is the answer, and getting rid of gun free zones.

    • eddie47d

      I doubt if those were Ben’s own thoughts and no more than copy and paste. “no relationship between guns and violence”? They need to buy a clue or are they deliberately space cadets. The majority of gun deaths (crimes) in America occur in the home. Those who own guns don’t like admitting that because it hits to close to HOME! They like to bring up street gangs and home invaders when they are a minor element in causing the murder/death statistics. That way they can sensationalize gangster crime as the main need for owning semi-automatics when it is rare compared to domestic violence cases. The article also says there is an “onslaught of criminals which leaves them defenseless”. Murder by criminals is down so that is also more theatrics and excuses by the pro gunners. They are hardly defenseless and are riding on unknown fears rather than common sense.

    • Hedgehog

      nc, who is this “we” you are talking about? Are you speaking of the royal we, the editorial we, or do you have a rat in your pocket?

      • S.C.Murf

        Its a turd Hedgehog, he has a turd in his back pocket.

        up the hill
        airborne

      • nc

        hog, for the sake of an answer, I am going to assume you are referring to the WE in my post to BEN. The “WE” is everyone who has heard the pro and con arguments made about gun control and confiscation. The “we” is also everyone who has heard of the mass SHOOTINGS in this country. The “we” is also everyone who is concerned about the deaths of innocent school children. It is a problem that only “WE. the people” can fix! Liberals and Conservatives! Being a Liberal, I was asking the resident Conservative buffoon what his answer to a national problem is! He has a lot of other opinions, I was hoping he had an answer to this one< YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION TO EXCUSE YOURSELF FROM ANY "WE" I USED!

    • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Charles Cunningham

      Nc you want to know how to fix the problem. Parents need to step up and be parents. They need to be the parents of the 50′s and 60′s. I grew up in that time and am sorry to say that it is my generation that got this problem rolling. We respected our parents, but once we were out of their homes we rebelled. We did not raise our kids the way our parents did. We created the ACLU that has destroyed many of the “rights” that I enjoyed as a child but my children and grandchildren don’t. Parent and Grandparents need to spend time with their kids. They need to supervise what is played on electronic games and the computer. They need to have family time each day. The easiest is to sit down together at dinner (at a specific time) no excuses. One night a week needs to be family night and one night date night for mom and dad. Maybe that means one less activity or not working overtime for mom and dad. Our children will not turn out well if we are not there to teach them. The church doesn’t do it anymore, because they are too busy trying not to lose members because they stress what is Biblical. People today don’t want to hear that. Schools don’t do it either that has been banned. In a lot of cases they barely teach the children to survive in the world with the basic reading, writing and math.
      It shouldn’t take a columnist to point this all out. Look at your parents, grandparents and in many cases great-grandparents. See what is different about them and you. Work at being like them. Change yourself first. If you can’t change then how do you expect to change anyone else.

      • nc

        Charles, were you as critical of the ACLU when they were protecting the CIVIL RIGHTS of Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Ollie North???They have also appeared in many cases to defend the CIVIL RIGHTS of other Conservatives.
        Check their record in cases argued before the US Supreme Court and other courts in this country concerning an interpretation of the Constitution! They are experts! Quite possibly the best in the USA. You may disagree with their position on some matters but that does not make them WRONG before the Supreme Court!

        The ACLU does not have the power to destroy your rights! They argue, they don’t rule! COURTS RULE!

    • Jim B

      NC, I believe the obvious answer was us with guns, us being law abiding citizens. I DO think that that is the point, obvious as it may be to some. Does our so called leader walk around without armed protection…. NO! Are they armed to protect themselves against law abiding citizens… NO! So why would they want to take that right away from us, the law abiding citizen, we just want what they want and are allowed to have. God gave us all brains, time we start using them!

      • eddie47d

        Apparently Jim you haven’t been paying attention to comments said on right wing blogs and so forth. Most of those who make extreme comments say they have legal weapons and are willing to use them against the President. So yes the President is vulnerable from assassination attempts from those people.

      • nc

        Jim B, I am as liberal as anyone here but I do not advocate confiscating the weapons of our citizens. But I do have children and grandchildren whose well being concerns me. I went to the movies and other public gatherings at their age and death by gun fire was not a worry! Why? Because there were no guns present! At least none that I ever saw confiscated! Mass public murders with guns concern me! Do they concern you? The fact that well over 95% of the mass murders result from guns concerns me? Does that concern you?
        As to the guns you have, what if any sacrifices would you be willing to make to change that scenario? None? If we can build a space craft and shoot it out of the universe I would bet my bippy we can better protect our children. The key word is sacrifice! Just because you have a right does not mean you have to exercise it every time it becomes an issue! You also have the right to waive it

      • Jim B

        Eddie, do you think that the government gun grab is not threatening? The government talks out of both sides of its poli-tic mouth. Standing above the laws that are force on the American people (e.g SS taxes, Obamacare, even Sequestration.. unscaved), will create more problems, and will fuel more decent from their idiocy.

  • tony newbill
    • tony newbill

      And they caused your Financial Oppression to create the Way FORWARD to Accomplish the Intent of Control of world Populations by Killing off a Independent Middle Classes ability to financially afford a quality of life making you DEPENDENT on a Government that wants to Reduce the size of world populations …. THINK ABOUT THAT as you Vote for those who will Represent your Best Interests !!!!!!
      If you want Freedom of Life and a Form of that kind of Liberty then you better be willing to Secure your Nation and that Means Isolating it from the Dominance of International Finance with these Bankers , PUT THEM out of Business in the USA and you might stand a chance of Securing the USA !!!!!!! We Need Our Own People in new banking Enterprises , these people ARE NOT OUR People because they Have Committed Treason against ALL OF US !!!!!!!!!!!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J4B5f2ezEB8

  • Jim B

    Over 24 counties in N.Y.S. have signed on to legislation to repeal Como’s coo on citizen’s rights to defend themselves from threats such as himself, another 26 are following with similar repeal legislation! That’s a lot of counties in his own state that he best not step foot in (us organized militia’s might mistake him for someone who threatens the free state of New York). Como’s a hack job, the head Tic in N.Y.S poli (meaning many) tic (meaning blood sucking creature) (source kept confidential to protect the innocent). Only a fool threatens the constitution and the liberty and freedoms of law abiding citizens. Only a fool believes that criminals (CRIMINALS) obey the laws of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Como’s gun coo is a threat to liberty and freedom, his threats is the reason the second amendment exist, has he and Obama lost their marbles? Stop being a fool Como your embarrassing the state!

  • Henry W. Whitt

    The 2nd. Amendment as written is simply this, We the people must be able to defend ourselves from a government that no longer does as the people say but as it wants. Regardless of which party is in power, All Americans should support the 2nd Amendment regardless of their feelings about firearms .

  • dan

    the Minutemen were farmers that picked up their muskets to defend themselves and their countrymen…to stand off the British Army who were confiscating weapons
    ( ‘assault’ muskets ? )

    • dan

      sorry….didn’t mean to leave out the shop-keepers preachers and teachers,etc

  • stan pullen

    Mr. Loechner’s statement, “5: I am a liberal and I do not believe cosmetic features make a gun more dangerous and that they should be banned. Therefore this is not a liberal theory since there is at least one liberal who disagrees with it,” does not ring true.
    Since NO conservatives believe cosmetic features are a reason to ban weapons, it has to be accredited to the liberals.

    It is also my understanding that GUN REGISTRATION in Germany was established in 1935 under the leadership of Hitler and this allowed the military to easily disarm the civilian population. Mr Loechner, please give your definition of “infringed”

  • angelwannabe

    Ben’s right, whether the second amendment was written during times of flintlocks and muskets or now, it says “the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed!” There is NO A,B or C LIST of what we can or can’t have to defend ourselves.__It is a Natural Law given by Nature’s God__

    luke 22:36 & 38 36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

    38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

    “That’s enough!” he replied

    • nc

      anglewannabe, and the rest of that story is that after the swords were obtained The Romans continued to rule Jesus’s country for many many years to come! So what was the purpose of the swords? When one of his followers cut off the enemy’s ear with a sword He healed it immediately ! So why the swords? Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth! Where did I read that as a child?? Is it still in print?? Does it still apply??

      • angelwannabe

        nc__How great it would be, if the world thought that, “that the meek shall inherit the earth”__There would n’t be a problem would there?__God doesn’t want us to start anything, but he wants us to defend ourselves if we have to!__

      • Hedgehog

        nc, I read that too, problem is that in most of the versions I read they left out the part about the “meek” inheriting a plot of earth; six feet long, three feet wide and six feet deep.

      • Charlie

        Heathen,,, does Luke 22:36 still apply???

      • Jana

        nc,
        You stated”Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth! Where did I read that as a child?? Is it still in print?? Does it still apply??_________________________

        Is that the last time you bothered to read your Bible? When you were a child?

        Meek in the Greek is steko which means to be stationary, to persevere or to stand fast. Strong’s Concordance.

        Therefore it does not mean to run away or cower down. Sometimes in order to stand your ground you must be armed. Not always to kill, but certainly not to be bullied or run over. If we have to be prepared to send our attacker home to the Father, then so be it. God is our judge. He knows our heart, and he knows the heart of the attacker.

      • kimo3690

        Awwwwwwwwwwwww Jana TY!! Well said!!!

    • Bob666

      Wow,
      at $0.10/word, you oaid your rent today!

  • Don 2

    The AR-15 is the musket of our time.

    Free Men Own Guns ~ Slaves Don’t

    • Grandpa frog

      Well said! With your permission, I’d like to use it.

      • Don 2

        Go for it Grandpa frog. These did not originate with me.

        Better To Have A Gun And Not Need One – Than To Need A Gun And Not Have One.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        When seconds count the po-lice are only minutes away!

      • Don 2

        A Gun In The Hand Is Better Than A Cop On The Phone

      • Jana

        AMEN!!!

  • Sir Robert

    How do you defend against a government that can kill you from a predator or guided missile. And you will never see it coming. The point that it’s needed to defend against a bad government is udated and moot.

    • Srsanbo

      Please do let the tribes in Afghanistan know how outmatched they are so we can bring our boys and girls home. To suggest we should just toss up our arms and say, “oh well, no fighting back now”…is ridiculous.

      • angelwannabe

        Agreed, I’d never draw first blood and if blood is drawn we may lose, but as for me and my house_ we’ll go down with the ship!

    • Don 2

      So, Sir Robert, do you think that the government has 150 million missile-equipped predator drones to hunt down every armed patriot in the country?

      • Sir Robert

        I think your estimate of 150 million might be right. The number of qualified soldiers is pretty small. The Marine Corps only has about 25,000 trained infantry the rest are all support.Most Americans I see the couldn’t make it up a flight of stairs, even the young ones. They couldn’t defend an outhouse let alone a home. A shotgun is all you need for home defense. Using a rifle in your home with your children and loved ones in the home is beyond retarted.

      • S.C.Murf

        Sir Robert, with my wife, children and grandchildren in the house is exactly why I have several weapons (assault rifles) locked and loaded. You have a safe day

        up the hill
        airborne

      • daleh

        To Sir Robert—The Marine Corps have 3 Divisions on active duty at present, the 1st, 2nd and the 3rd, plus the attached Airwings and other units that I don’t really know about , when i was in the 1st Marine Div years ago it was over 25k Marines I belive due the Reinforcments that it carried in the Korean War—

        My point is this , with 3 Marine Divisions at present I think you will find alot more than 25 k “Infantry Trained Marines, although the Corps has changed in many ways since my time in the Corps, I would imagine the Commandant of the Marine Corps would not let his Corps fall to such a skelton force–I have read at presnetb there are over 200,000 Marine and when they cut back to the normal count of Marines , it will be at least 174,000, as I believe by law that is what they are required to have –

        Where did you get your estimated number from ?? I am curious to know –

      • Sir Robert

        I was just making the point that even the USMC doesn’t have that many qualified infantry to the point that there are 150 million patriots. My point it there are a lot of marines but few are trained and ready for battle. My number of 25,000 came from when I was in, they started making everyone go through infrantry school when I got in because that number was so low. MY whole point is we are a fat out of shape society(even if you aren’t)that is hopelessly out gunned by our government. In my state if you say you have any connection to a militia you get denied a gun permit. We are screwed if all goes bad.

      • APN

        Sir Robert said: “Using a rifle in your home with your children and loved ones in the home is beyond retarted”

        What is retarded SIR Robert is your comments and obviously you know nothing about guns and ammo, just like Bidden.

        A rifle fires one round at a time at point of aim whereas a shotgun, alias “Scattergun” shoots a wide pattern of projectiles. In fact, a 12 gauge load of OO Buckshot has 12 pellets approximately the size of a nine millimeter handgun round and yes a shotgun will penetrate walls in close combat just like a rifle.

        Now, that equates to someone capping off 12 nine mil rounds instantaneously in a RANDOM scatter patten. Logic would dictate that it would be highly probably that someone may get hit unintentionally. i.e. Children, Wife, Husband, Dog, etc.

        Let me give you this scenario, the perp breaks into your home and grabs your wife. He has no idea that you are there and you arm yourself with your “Scattergun”. You peer around the corner and you can clearly see his head but you cannot shoot because you would blow your wife’s head off with his. Then, in your hesitation, he slits her throat right in front of you. Well, now you can BLAST away but your wife is still DEAD.

        Same scenario but you have a nine mil handgun loaded with 17 rounds or 30-06 rifle loaded with 10 rounds. Fact is, I will take both over your shotgun but the 30-06 rifle in mini-version is the BEST choice because it is more accurate(Long GUN with rifle sights) and can be fired from the hip in close quarters one shot at a time if necessary or rapidly fired until it goes click.

        A handgun or a rifle is better for home protection than a shotgun even more so as the distance to the perp increases. i.e.; more accurate and more controllable

        Bad advice you have given for those who would not know better.

        APN

      • Jana

        APN.
        Thank you.
        I don’t know a lot about guns, but I knew what he was saying was wrong.
        The first thing I was taught was to know where my kids are before I shoot. (My husband was out of town). Have them behind me, not beside me or in front, but behind me.

    • Johnny D

      Sir Robert Yes we need to keep our assault weapons to shoot down those drones and what are those black heliocopters. Yes we need to keep our weapons.

      • daleh

        Agan to Sir Robert– An additioin to my post in answer to your comment that the Marine Corps has only about 25,000 Infantry Trained Marines—I forgot to add that , no matter what MOS a U.S. Marine has , he is FIRST LAST and ALWAYS , a RIFLEMAN—–

    • S.C.Murf

      Screw the drones, take out the operator bearing or the one who told him to push the button (higher up the food chain)

      up the hill
      airborne

  • rendarsmith

    “Assault weapon” is just a vague umbrella term. A butter knife could be considered an “assault weapon”.

    • eddie47d

      Any weapon that fires multiple rounds is considered an “assault ” type weapon. Whether a Glock pistol an AR-15 or a machine gun. There is no confusion from Liberals except that some states consider 7 rounds a multiple clip,some 10 and some 15 and it goes up from there. Generally most don’t consider a 6-8 round handgun an assault weapon and almost no one considers an action bolt hunting rifle an assault weapon. Who cares whether one person can quickly load a 7 round pistol vs a 30 round magazine. The 100 round weapon used in the Aurora shooting was definitely an assault weapon yet legally obtained. The problem is that there is no solid consensus from one person to the next and each state needs to address that issue . Bringing up “butter knives” or hands doesn’t help in defining the issue and is only used to obfuscate.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        You are attempting to obfuscate the 2nd Amendment. If you do not like it, see if you can get enough votes to change it. Although I did not own a fire arm until November 4th, 2008, I still supported the 2nd Amendment, then and will die in it’s defensed if necessary. You, on the other hand, are a coward that will hide behind someones skirt while others are sent to disarm the Free People of this country.

      • Don 2

        You’re right about one thing. There is no confusion among liberals, and states do have different ideas on what is a “multiple” clip(lib-speak). How many rounds allowed in a magazine is directly proportional to how many Communist Left the liberals have elected to a particular states government.

      • Mike Balog

        @Eddie47d: Your statement is Ridiculas on it’s face. Do you Know what an Assault Weapon is ? NOT the Media Definition. And Assult Rifle, by U.S. Govt. Definition; is a Semi Auto – Select Fire FULL Automatic Weapon with a fire rate of at least 1,000 rounds
        per sec. Reloadable with a 30 round magazine or more. Read the Law, Federal Laws
        written in 1935 and added to by the 1968 Gun Control Act BANS Fullly Automatic
        Firearms, commonly called “Machine Guns” from the Civilian Population. With the
        Exception of those who could pass a Rigid Background Check, being issued a Class III
        Weapons Permit and Paying a $ 200 fee Transfer Tax to the BATF. Other Exceptions
        are domestic Police Forces and All the U.S. Armed Forces. The Commonly
        manufactured and owned AR 15, MIA1, M 1 Garand, M 1 Carbine, AKM / AK 47 Style
        Semiautomatic Rifles are NOT Assault Rifles / Weapons of War.

        The U.S. Govt. in a Dept. of Justice Memo, to Other U.S. Law Enforcement Agencies, The U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Boarder Patrol, CIA, DIA, etc. has Specifically Stated that a
        Semiautomatic Rifle, The AR 15 is to be considered a Good Defensive Weapon of
        Choice, The AR 15 is a SEMIAUTOMATIC Single Round at a time fired Rifle, it is NOT a
        Select Fire / Fully Automatic Fire Rifle. AND it Cannot Be Converted to be one due to it’s
        design. Specific Select Fire / Full Auto Fire Parts are Not part of that Rifle. IF This
        Typical black AR 15 Rifle is Considered by the Federal Govt. as a Prefered “Good
        Defensive Weapon” for themselves, THEN For the Rest of U.S. Citizens, it is the
        Common Rifle of the Relm, and Acceptable for WE The People Also. The We The
        People are the SAME People Mentioned in the Rest of the U.S. Constitution. IF you
        Tamper and Tramp on the Rights of the 2nd Amendment, You are doing so on all the
        rest of the U..S. Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution.

        ALSO, I might Remind you, that the so called Simple Bolt Action Rifle was and still is
        considered the Standard Battle Rifle for Reference Around the World. Prior to 1937,
        There were ONLY Bolt Action Rifles around the World issued to average Infrintry
        Troops, even Airborne Troops. Heavy Maxium and Browning Belt Fed Machine Guns
        were required to have three man gun crews to man and transport them. Semiautomatic /
        Fullautomatic Rifles such as the Browning Automatic Rifle, commonly known as the
        BAR firing a .30-06 rifle cartridge was developed during WW 1 as a Squad Supporting
        Weapon for our Armed Forces. The Commonly Issued Rifle as a Weapon during WW 1
        and in the beginning of WW 2 was the commonly issued Springfield Rifle, in .30-06 cal.,
        the Enfield Rifle, in .30-06 cal.. In both wars, in Korean War and in Vietnam, the
        Springfield A3O3 and A304 were issued as Standard Snipper Rifles with a scope for the
        U.S. Armed Forces.

        In Germany, in WW 1 and WW 2 the most common Battle Rifle for the Germany Army
        was the Standard Mauser K98k series 6 Round stock fed magazine Bolt Action Rifle.
        Which was also refined as a sniper rifle with a scope. The U.S. Armed Forces had been
        issued the M 1 Garand Rifle, developed in 1937 by Mr. Garand, which is a semi -automatic only reloading rifle with an internal reloadable 8 round in block clip. That is the
        main battle rifle my father and his brothers carried along with the M 1 Carbine, [ 15 or 30
        round mag fed] rifle from D Day to V-J Day… Becasue we had Better Weapons in WW 2
        like the semiatomatic rifles we Won WW 2.

        The Commonly issued Battle Rifle Prior to WW 1 also was the bolt action rifle, based on
        the German / Swiss Designs of the Peter Mauser and Paul Mauser brothers design. Bolt
        action rifles were developed fairly early in history coming into being during the 19th
        Century. During the Spanish American War, the U.S. were Issued the .30-40 cal Krag-
        Jorgenson Rifle developed in Europe, and the Winshester Repeating rifle in .45-70 cal
        replaced the .45 – 70 cal. single shot reloading falling block rifle issued eariler during the
        Indian Wars issued as a common infintry and calverly rife, replaced by the Henry, Marlin
        and Winchester Arms Lever Action Rifles. I wrote this from memory since I am a retired
        LEO [ Police Officer ], gun collector / amateur historian since 1970. Hope this sheds light
        on the Differences between what is Really a Fullautomatifc / Select Fire Weapon of War,
        a Semiautomatic Rifle and a Bolt Action Rifle for all those not familiar of the terms and
        the History of the development of Firearms. Please note, Infamous Criminals such as Bonnie and Clyde Carried and used a BAR [Browning Automatic Rifle] and a Colt .45 in
        their Bank Robbering Crime Sprees. “Pretty Boy George” and “Machine Gun Kelly” also
        Carried the Colt .45, And the Fully Automatic Thompson Submachine Gun using .45 cal
        hand gun ammo.

        For those Born before 1950 and during 1960, you may recall when JFK was Murdered
        in Dallas, Texas,,, he was Shot supposedly by a Single Assaliant using an Italian Bolt
        Action 5 Shot Internal Magazine Fed Rifle. Not a Semiautomatic Rifle or Semiautomatic Pistol, which were easily obtained during that time as well. So, Those who are Now Informed of the Differences between types of Firearms should Rethink their Positions
        and Consider the Obvious , Cirminals Will Use Whatever they want to commit any Crime.
        Honest Citizens Should Not and Must Not Be Disarmed. We are NOT the Problem.
        I also took that Oath as an Officer and I Never Recanted on that Oath either.

      • eddie47d

        My exact wording was CONSIDERED an assault weapon. An AR-15 isn’t an assault weapon but it is CONSIDERED as one. Time to change the definition to include many weapons that don’t shoot those 1000 rounds per second. It’s long overdue.

      • Hedgehog

        Eddie I guess that your computer should be considered an assault type weapon as it fires multiple rounds. It’s not very accurate though, it continually shoots to the left. LOL

      • Jana

        NO no Hedghog,
        It’s Eddie’s computers fault that stupid stuff comes out of it, not Eddie’s fault. Just like it’s the gun’s fault that it kills someone not the shooter’s fault. It’s also the the car’s fault when it runs over someone and kills them, not the drunk that is driving it.

      • kimo3690

        DAMN STRAIGHT!!! What ever happened to “one taking responsibility for their own actions”?? I am so sick of the pointing fingers and blame in this country such as: McDonald’s cuz my coffee is too hot; or my kid is too fat for eating happy meals everyday; or the wounded criminal at the crime scene is awarded a settlement because the home owner shot him as he was running out of his house…… GOD HELP US!! lol

      • APN

        Eddie47D said “My exact wording was CONSIDERED an assault weapon. An AR-15 isn’t an assault weapon but it is CONSIDERED as one. Time to change the definition to include many weapons that don’t shoot those 1000 rounds per second. It’s long overdue.”

        …and it will do NOTHING to curb violence in America just like the hundreds and thousands of gun laws on the books now.

        Eddie, you can’t legislate morality, it has to be taught by good parents from the birth of a child. The problem has never been “Assault Weapons”, as I told you earlier, the problem is within the spirit and no man-made law can cure it!

        APN

      • kimo3690

        AMEN Brother WELL SAID!!! TY TY

      • Bob666

        Yo Salacious B. Crumb,

        Jaba must be a yan’kin cause you just keep a span’kin!

      • Jana

        Bob666,
        I don’t understand half of your comments. What language are you speaking???

      • Bob666

        Yo Jana,
        pehaps you could refer to a post and I can clairfy?

      • Bob666

        Yo Jana,
        I believe I understand the question now that I saw were the post was from.

        Kimo is a bit of a live wire and after being heckled by here and watching her heckle others, it dawned on me that she reminded me of a character in Star Wars;

        Salacious B. Crumb was a Kowakian monkey-lizard employed as a court jester for Hutt crime lord Jabba Desilijic Tiure. Known for his shrill laugh and sadistic sense of humor, Crumb started out as little more than vermin on Kwenn Space Station during the days of the Galactic Republic, eventually escaping onto a ship belonging to Jabba the Hutt.

        When Jabba found Crumb eating from his food bowl, he attempted to digest him, though the Kowakian monkey-lizard escaped, covering Jabba’s two henchmen with goo in the process. Jabba found this extremely amusing, and offered Crumb a role as his court jester;

        If Salacious managed to amuse Jabba at least once a day, he would be allowed to eat and drink as much as he wished. However, if he failed to do so, he would be killed. For over a dozen years he lived in Jabba’s Palace, playing many tricks and practical jokes on some of the palace’s regulars, and becoming one of the most disliked members of Jabba’s court.

        Personally, I believe that Describes Kimo to a “T”.

        hope this helps.

    • http://www.facebook.com/david.kuhlmann.18 David Kuhlmann

      So could a #2 pencil!

      • Warrior

        However there is nothing more dangerous than a “SCEAMING LIBERAL”! Talk about the ultimate “assault weapon”. LMAO.

  • Michael

    The Liberals use the first amendment, freedom of speech to knock the second amendment . Do they realize without the second amendment they could kiss the first amendment GOOD-BY!

    • nc

      Michael. when in the history of this country has the assault weapon in the hands of civilians within our borders been used to defend the 1st amendment!?
      Have you ever asked yourself why those who protect our lies, police chiefs and sheriffs, had rather not see those type weapons so free in the hands of the perps?? People dying in masses is a problem that can be fixed! The biggest obstacle is the paranoid mind!!

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Who do you suggest decides whether ones mind is paranoid? YOU? I don’t think so. You are a totalitarian. Why don’t you admit it. I will decide what is best for me. Who gave you the right to be in charge, Hmm?

      • eddie47d

        C.A B: What gives you the right to control someone elses thoughts with your paranoid mind?

      • Jana

        Eddie,
        Uh oh Eddie. I think your computer made another mistake as that statement made no sense at all.

    • Jeremy Leochner

      Michael I am a liberal and I do not attack the second amendment nor do I wish to get rid of it. But I do not carry any guns. And I have certainly not lost my right to free speech. Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness are Self Evident. No act of government can change that.

      • Jana

        Jeremy,
        But if an act of Government did change it, you would comply, being the good young little liberal you are.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Actually I would not Jana. My allegiance is to the Republic and not the government.

  • Harold Olsen

    I have actually heard liberal politicians claim that there is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that says anything about a citizen’s right to bear arms. This shows how biased the left is and how much they are out to take our freedoms away from us. They are too stupid to realize that it is their freedoms that are also in jeopardy.

    • Jeremy Leochner

      Its not about left versus right liberal versus conservative Harold. Some liberal politicians say something it doesn’t mean all liberals or “the left” share those same views.

      • FreedomFighter

        After all, as long as they can keep if not the general public, then at least their media accomplices and the poorly informed voters on whose necks they stand focused on one of the most exceptionally divisive issues of our time, they won’t have to explain themselves regarding their wars

        Anti gun people can NOT defeat this
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KztkvfeyO80

        Winston its about power. If you the people have arms, you have power. If government has the onlly arms, they have absolute power.

        doublethink
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5NGAOJL2nM

        Laus Deo
        Semper FI

      • rendarsmith

        As usual, the individual basis argument. Funny how libs think it’s ok to bash conservatives collectively, but point out something like this against the left and we get the whole “no not all libs are like that” statement. This is COMPLETELY left vs right, with the left pushing for gun control and the right protecting the 2nd amendment! If you cannot see that you have not been paying attention!

      • eddie47d

        The right is protecting the Second? No the right is continually extending the Second to mean just about anything they want. No matter what weapons are included or how they are obtained. They have encouraged so many loopholes that almost every gun law is meaningless. (That is why they don’t work). Some of you Second Amendment folks are a criminals dream. What is easy for you to obtain just makes it easier for them to obtain. You can buy fully Automatic weapons through trusts (39,000 were purchased by individuals in 2012). These weapons are generally considered banned yet they are not. So enough of this tomfoolery in proclaiming there are enough laws and that loopholes don’t exist.

      • Don 2

        radarsmith,

        You are correct. It is all about Left vs. Right, and there is no room for compromise.

    • Vicki

      Harold Olsen says:
      “I have actually heard liberal politicians claim that there is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that says anything about a citizen’s right to bear arms.”

      They are correct. It says The PEOPLE. Citizens are a sub-set of The People. And in the minds of liberal politicians the sub-set is also inferior to the elite class (them).

    • CJ

      Stay of focus, the Constitution puts limitations on government, not on us. We have inalienable rights the Constitution protects. The politicians are wrong to say that it limits US.

  • Jeremy Leochner

    None of these are liberal arguments.

    1: When the second amendment was written “Arms” did technically refer to flintlocks and muskets since those were the only arms at the time.

    2: If you are living in a small sub urban neighborhood and you have a pistol with a ten round capacity I am pretty sure your home and person are safe without an “assault weapon”. I agree the term is often used ambiguously. I want to ask what Mr. Crystals idea of an assault weapon would be. As for our liberty as long as people exercise their right to speak and print and assemble we have no need for guns to protect us from tyranny.

    3: No one liberal or conservative says that guns cause crime. They simply point out that ready access to them and the misguided belief that one needs a gun in order to solve their problems causes ever more crime. The argument against drunk driving is not that cars cause drunk driving. But ready access to cars for drunks is an issue that should be dealt with.

    4: It isn’t “so called” high capacity. A 30 round pistol or rifle can cause significant damage. And its not for nothing that guns in the home can pose a danger to children if improperly contained. And its some what of a contradiction to keep a weapon in the home which requires opening a safe or locked drawer in order to obtain. An alarm system, good locks and a trained dog are all good forms of defense. Of course each city or town is different and we have to apply different levels of security to different places. But perhaps that is the point. In small towns where people know each other and where crime rates may not be so high there really is no need for guns with 20 or 30 round capacities. In places where a home invasion is unlikely and where a burglar is far more likely to wait till no one is home to break in a gun with a large shot capacity or even a gun at all is an unnecessary danger.

    5: I am a liberal and I do not believe cosmetic features make a gun more dangerous and that they should be banned. Therefore this is not a liberal theory since there is at least one liberal who disagrees with it.

    6: Gun control was not implemented in Nazi Germany until 1938 long after Hitler came to power: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html

    It wasn’t lack of guns that lead to the downfall of the Weimar Republic. It was lack of faith in the Republic and the belief that they needed a strong leader to dispense justice from on high and destroy the undesirables of Germany. It was when people put more faith in the sword than in the pen that their Republic died.

    It is not when a person has no guns that they are powerless. Its when they believe they are powerless because they have no gun.

    • Harold Olsen

      The term “assault weapon” is misleading. If you assault someone with your fist, that fist becomes an assault weapon. Should fists be banned? If you assault someone with a baseball bat, that bat becomes an assault weapon. Should bats be banned? Just about any object can be used to assault someone with and is therefore an assault weapon. Though I do not like, nor own, guns, I believe the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to own whatever weapons we choose, including fully automatic rifles that shoot as many rounds as we want. Gun control is not about guns or, as the left claims, protecting children, since it’s clear they do not give a damn about children, it’s about taking away our rights and freedoms.

    • Vicki

      Jeremy Leochner says:
      “None of these are liberal arguments.

      1: When the second amendment was written “Arms” did technically refer to flintlocks and muskets since those were the only arms at the time.”

      This is not an argument. It is a statement of fact. It is however used as a base for the common liberal argument that the founders could not have meant machine guns and scary looking guns and……

      -Jeremy Leochner: “2: If you are living in a small sub urban neighborhood and you have a pistol with a ten round capacity I am pretty sure your home and person are safe without an “assault weapon”.I agree the term is often used ambiguously.”

      Be as sure as you want. It’s not your life on the line. (Ignoring the lack of definition for scary looking gun that you failed to provide)

      -Jeremy Leochner: “As for our liberty as long as people exercise their right to speak and print and assemble we have no need for guns to protect us from tyranny.”

      Patent false. Historical examples abound. You are living in one.
      http://personalliberty.com/2013/02/26/another-leo-ignores-rulings-on-taping/

      -Jeremy Leochner: “No one liberal or conservative says that guns cause crime.”

      Patenty false http://hnn.us/articles/871.html

      Keep in mind when reading this that

      ~300 MILLION Americans DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE.

      STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a few

      STOP IT
      STOP IT NOW

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Vicki is back, parroting her old and tired 300 MILLION AMERICANS horsepucky on behalf of the NRA. To put everyone back in touch with reality, some numbers to peruse. (from the Firearms and Injury Center at Penn)

        Firearm-Related Mortality
        Firearm injury in the United States has averaged 32,300 deaths annually between 1980 and 2007
        It is the SECOND LEADING CAUSE of injury death after motor vehicle crashes.
        While the ratio varies, there are an average of five nonfatal firearm injuries for every two firearm deaths.
        Firearms are involved in 67% of homicides, 50% of suicides, 43% of robberies, and 21% of aggravated assaults. Deaths peaked in 1993 at 40,000 in the early 1990s and fell below 30,000 in 1999. Yet even at these lower levels, firearm injury represents a
        significant public health impact, accounting for 6.6% of premature death in this country The fatality rate of firearm violence is more than twice the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ “Healthy People” goal for the year 2010.

        Nonfatal Injury
        While many people are killed each year by firearms, even more are injured non-fatally. In 2008, there were 78,622 nonfatal firearm injuries in the United States, 73% of which were the result of interpersonal violence.

        ABOUT 111,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS EACH YEAR.

        STOP DENYING THAT FACT.
        STOP IT NOW.

      • cawmun cents

        Okay Mr.Halfbrain,
        What do we do to stop Gang violence in our inner cities?

      • Don 2

        Half Brain Working is back parroting his old and tired liberal B.S.

        U.S. Senator Rand Paul cited statistics yesterday, that it takes an average of 5-rounds for a police officer to take down a criminal.

        The average home invasion involves three criminals.

        Who is going to guarantee (bet their life) that you don’t need a semi-automatic rifle (so-called assault rifle using 100-year old technology) with a magazine holding more than a 10-rounds, or more than 20-rounds?

      • eddie47d

        Cawmun cents; You make a good reason for National laws that are enforced throughout the land. That way all the loopholes can be equally closed and gun manufacturers would have to take more responsibility to who they sell to. Gun dealers wouldn’t be allowed to release a weapon until the background check is completed. Gun shows have the biggest loopholes and straw man purchases should be stopped. Those straw man purchases funnel guns into gangster territory. Its like a border fence you may not stop everyone but most would be deterred. If those “non-existent” loopholes are closed and so forth you won’t stop everyone but you would slow down the amount of damage the gangster paradise would inflict. If you want to continue being a lawful gun owner then support meaningful laws that stop the flow of weapons into the wrong hands.

      • Kane

        Ah yes…Jeremy Leochner and Right Brain Thinker (now there’s an oxymoron if I ever heard oner!) A couple of obama’s “cyber warriors” on the loose.
        Heads up! From what I hear, there are two different “teams” tracking back to you “cyber warriors”. You are not going to like it when they find you!

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        RBT: ABOUT 111,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS EACH YEAR.

        Sad, isn’t it? Funny, you didn’t mention that 1.2 million Americans die via abortion each year. Are you upset that 111,000 Americans are killed by guns rather than abortion? Perhaps you’re upset over the fact that guns are taking business away form the abortion-industry? I know i know; guns-bad, abortion-good…. another stupid liberal philosophy!

      • tony newbill
      • Jeremy Leochner

        Vicki

        1: Mr. Crystal spoke as though Liberals were arguing that Arms only meant Flintlocks and Muskets when the second amendment was written. I was pointing out that technically it is true that at the time the only actual arms were in fact flintlocks and muskets.

        2: I was not asked to provide my definition of an assault weapon. Nor did I propose banning them any way. As for my view. I would say a gun designed with fully automatic capability and designed to efficiently shred enemy soldiers could be considered an assault weapon. Any weapon which our soldiers might use. Still ambiguous I admit. But that’s me. And with all due respect Vicki I never suggested people don’t need some form of defense. And I even admitted not every town and city is the same as mine. I just believe that unless your living in a city where law enforcement is clearly not doing its job I see no reason to turn your arm into a military arsenal.

        3: As long as I can speak out I refuse to believe we live under tyranny. As long as I can continue to talk politics whether on this site or to my friends and as long as I can say in public that Obama has made mistakes and immoral decisions I know we do not live under tyranny. Its only when people stop speaking and start shooting that a Republic falls.

        4: Alright I admit I made an absolutist statement. I was wrong. I will say that I disagree with anyone who says that guns cause crime. The idea of “Guns cause crime” is still not a liberal one.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Actually Kane I am trying to stop us all from falling into calling each other names and saying one side is the bad guy and the other is the good guy. It does our country no good when the people fight amongst themselves and don’t hold their leaders accountable. Obama has made mistakes and broken promises. Rarely do cyber warriors admit such things.

      • Vicki

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        “Vicki is back,”

        Hadn’t left.

        - RBT: “To put everyone back in touch with reality, some numbers to peruse. (from the Firearms and Injury Center at Penn)”

        Cool. A test.

        - RBT: “Firearm-Related Mortality
        Firearm injury in the United States has averaged 32,300 deaths annually between 1980 and 2007″

        Population in the United States has risen from ~220 million in 1980 to ~300 million in 2007

        So in 1980
        ~220 MILLION Americans DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE
        In 1981….

        - RBT: “Deaths peaked in 1993 at 40,000 in the early 1990s and fell below 30,000 in 1999.

        - RBT: “ABOUT 111,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS EACH YEAR.

        Hmmm. Your number can not possibly be correct. We tested guns to see if they could injure or kill. They all failed miserably. Here is the test.
        http://personalliberty.com/2013/01/23/do-guns-kill-people-pistol-shotgun-assault-rifle-put-to-the-test/

        Now if you meant to say”….INJURED by people where tool=gun” then WoW we are up to 0.037% of the population. Less actually cause I presumed 1 to 1 between perp and your unsubstantiated 111,000 people.

        All the stats offered by RBT draw us to the same inevitable conclusion that

        ~300 Million Americans DIDN’T shoot anyone
        Stop Punishing the INNOCENT for the acts of a (very very) few ( less than 0.04%)

        Stop it
        Stop it NOW.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        CJ agrees with RBT and rather elegantly and truthfully says to Vicki,
        “More semantic BS. The principle doesn’t change, despite your attempts to distract”.

        CJ is obviously quite familiar with those four types of sentences Vicki is always employing—-evasivatory, distractatory, obfuscatory, and whatever the other one is (CRS at my age).

        Vicki again parrots (with a small twist) ~220 MILLION Americans DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE In 1981….

        ABOUT 111,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS EACH YEAR.
        ABOUT 555,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS IN FIVE YEARS
        ABOUT 1,110,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS IN TEN YEARS

        STOP TRYING TO EVADE OR IGNORE THAT FACT
        STOP YOUR MINDLESS REPETITION OF A MEANINGLESS STATISTIC
        STOP IT

        STOP IT NOW

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “And with all due respect Vicki I never suggested people don’t need some form of defense.”

        You just don’t want us to have the BEST tools for defense.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Vicki a rifle with a ten round capacity sounds like a pretty good tool to me.

      • Jana

        Non Thinker,
        As I said before, If you don’t like the posts on here leave.

        But always remember since this obviously pushes your buttons:

        300 MILLION Americans DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a few

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • kimo3690

        APPLAUDS!! Yep, it does drive ‘em crazy!!! I LOVE IT!!

      • Jana

        Jeremy,
        The AR-15 doesn’t have the hard kick that a rifle does and is easier for a woman to use.

      • kimo3690

        YOU right about THAT!!!

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        RBT: ABOUT 111,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS EACH YEAR.
        ABOUT 555,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS IN FIVE YEARS
        ABOUT 1,110,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS IN TEN YEARS

        Your numbers are incorrect, my good sir.

        Approximately 30,000 are killed or injured by guns each year.

        Approximately 150,000 would be killed by guns in 5 years.

        In ten years…300,000

        No need to thank me.

      • Bob666

        The average annual number of handgun deaths in the 5-year period before the legislation was put in place in Australia was only a little over 500. In the United States, the total number of hand gun deaths (1980-2006) is more than 32,000 per year. Firearms are involved in 68% of homicides, 52% of suicides, 43% of robberies, and 21% of aggravated assaults.

        With 60 times the number of deaths (and a similar number of families devastated) time will tell if the American people and politicians have the will to overcome the powerful lobbies of gun owners and manufacturers that have created the current gun climate and will resist change violently. There are currently estimated to be 310 million non-military firearms within the U.S, nearly one for every man, woman and child, but are controlled by a mere 35% of the population. If you add the firearms in military possession the number goes much higher. With this vast quantity of guns, even if legislation is passed tomorrow which encourages a reduction in this enormous supply of firearms and ammunition, it may take decades before the full benefits are seen.

      • R. Fine

        Oh gee, only 300,000? That’s not so bad.

      • APN

        I see the RBT loon Jobal Warming “Scientist” is back in action.

        Given your “facts” RBT, as presented, should we not classify cars as “Assault Weapons” and ban them before guns?

        Look at how many mores “lives” it would save!

        APN (:->>>>

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I want a person man or woman to have multiple forms of defense Jane. I think that a pistol with ten rounds is capable of providing a woman with good defense. A woman who knows self defense may not even need a gun.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “Vicki a rifle with a ten round capacity sounds like a pretty good tool to me.”

        Good for you. Now how about you let the rest of us make our own choices and quit complaining when we don’t choose pepper spray. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uc0ok-nldw

      • Vicki

        Right Brain Thinker doesn’t and says:
        “CJ agrees with RBT and rather elegantly and truthfully says to Vicki,
        “More semantic BS. The principle doesn’t change, despite your attempts to distract”.”

        Most likely CJ was addressing Jeremy but you go ahead and believe as you will.

        - RBT: “Vicki again parrots (with a small twist) ~220 MILLION Americans DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE In 1981….”

        Silly me to actually point out a self evident truth. Call it parroting if you wish. It remains the truth for all to see.

        - RBT: “ABOUT 111,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS EACH YEAR.
        ABOUT 555,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS IN FIVE YEARS
        ABOUT 1,110,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR INJURED BY GUNS IN TEN YEARS”

        ~111,000 is ~0.037% of the ~300 MILLION Americans who didn’t shoot anyone.
        ~555,000 is ~0.185% of the ~300 MILLION Americans who didn’t shoot anyone.
        ~1,110,000 is ~0.37% of the ~300 MILLION Americans who didn’t shoot anyone.

        Really wowing us with your stats there RBT. 10 years worth of criminal misuse (and accidents) and you STILL haven’t crossed the magic 1% of the population.

        - RBT: “STOP TRYING TO EVADE OR IGNORE THAT FACT”

        No intention of evading that potential fact. It thoroughly supports my case that government MUST STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a VERY VERY few.

        - RBT: “STOP YOUR MINDLESS REPETITION OF A MEANINGLESS STATISTIC”

        I am being very mindful of where and when I repeat a VERY meaningful statistic. The US Population is used for LOTS of things. http://lwd.dol.state.nj.us/labor/lpa/census/2010/50WaysDataUsed.html

        - RBT: “STOP IT. STOP IT NOW”

        No.

        ~300 MILLION Americans DIDN’T shoot Anyone.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a VERY few
        Stop it
        Stop it NOW

      • APN

        Jeremy said: A woman who knows self defense may not even need a gun.

        LOL! What a FOOLISH comment. You been watching way to many hollywood movies pal.

      • Vicki

        APN says:
        “Jeremy said: A woman who knows self defense may not even need a gun.

        LOL! What a FOOLISH comment. You been watching way to many hollywood movies pal.”

        I may not need a gun, but if I do there is no substitute.

      • APN

        Vicki said: I may not need a gun, but if I do there is no substitute.

        Yep! Good idea! Even a small man can be lethal with a woman regardless of her training. I know that statement ruffles feathers but I’ve seen it happen, numerous times. It basically comes down to simple chemistry and no amount of progressive feminism or martial arts training will change that fact. i.e.; The gorilla factor with rage Things just don’t work as Hollywood presents it. As in, a 110 pound female man-handling an angry 250 lb male.

        Don’t buy a small caliber either, it will not defend you against a large angry male unless your lucky enough to take out the brain function with the first shot. Big chance and risky business when it comes to a life or death situation.

        Those are the facts not silly progressive fiction.

        APN

    • CJ

      More symantec BS. The principle doesn’t change, despite your attempts for distractions.

    • Mr. People

      Hmmmm…… Below is a response from Jeremy in a previous discussion about Obama potentially being a communist. I found his statements very revealing…

      = = = = = = = =

      “Jeremy Leochner says:

      August 13, 2012 at 11:12 pm

      I disagree with that. Fine Obama said it. Gandhi once said “I am a Muslim and a Hindu and a Christian and a Jew”. Just because he said that did not mean it was his particular creed. His was Hinduism but he was tolerant and respectful of other religions. Tolerance is not the same as belief. And if Obama is a Muslim it does not matter.

      You need to love your country and be a decent human being to be a patriot. You need not have fear of god. Our country is founded on the principle that all people are equal. That means their individual creeds are all equal as well. I do not believe in god but my beliefs do not interfere with my love for my country. I consider myself plenty patriotic.”

      = = = = = = = =

      Our country was not simply “…founded on the principle that all people are equal…”

      That principle was originally an idea and that idea couldn’t be materialized without action.

      Action = The sweat, blood and tears of TRUE Patriots to destroy tryanny AND DEFEND free men against oppression.

      Jeremy your flawed logic and meticulous ways of swimming through arguements won’t hold when the passions of True Patriots rise…

      I’m sure Benjamin Franklin and George Washington would be ashamed of you…

      • eddie47d

        You are the one who is flawed Mr People. Since gun crimes continue in America that is the problem that needs to be solved and this particular issue isn’t always about our Founding Fathers or tyranny. Our Founding Fathers would be ashamed at the senseless killings that go on in America and very proud of Jeremy for addressing those issues.Many of our early Patriots didn’t like closed minds. They didn’t like living under British rules and changed the events that kept them subjected. We don’t like the continual carnage and exploitive nature of guns being the problem solver. That “oppression” needs to stop!

      • Don 2

        Yes eddie, guns are a problem solver. 2 1/2 million time a year, guns stop crimes. Problem solved!

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Mr. People I am a student of history and know full well the sacrifices made in the name of our ideals. What exactly did I say in that comment you quoted that made you think I though our war of independence was simple.

    • Tom

      All your rhetoric is nothing more than a red herring. The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to help protect the people against a tyrannical government. The purpose of our Constitution is to limit the Federal Government, not limit the freedom of the people.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Tom it is not a red herring. I don’t disagree with you on your statements about Government or the Second Amendment. I am just trying to remind everyone we also have the First Amendment to protect us.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “Tom it is not a red herring. I don’t disagree with you on your statements about Government or the Second Amendment. I am just trying to remind everyone we also have the First Amendment to protect us.”

        How long (in seconds) do you expect the First Amendment to survive considering how much damage it has already taken due to Political Correctness?

      • Jeremy Leochner

        As long as anyone continues to speak we the people will not be silenced. As long as we exercise our rights they cannot take them away.

      • Don 2

        But we do not quibble about the methods by which we practice our First Amendment rights because methodology is not the point. Red herring arguments about types of ammunition or magazine capacity or handguns versus rifles are just that—red herrings. They distract us from the underlying purpose of that right—to insure a free society that can hold its government accountable. The Second Amendment is no more about guns than the First Amendment is about quill pens. ~ Daily Kos July 4, 2010

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “As long as anyone continues to speak we the people will not be silenced.”

        Really now. Let’s see.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gt_Axj7i-4&bpctr=1361956876
        Yep. Someone was speaking. Not sure the people would consider THEIR speech free.

    • Srsanbo

      Oh boy, yea no liberal bias here at all /sarcasm off.

      “1: When the second amendment was written “Arms” did technically refer to flintlocks and muskets since those were the only arms at the time.”

      - Very true. Please do notice they say “arms” not “flintlocks and muskets”. Please do remove the liberal blinders if you don’t feel the phrase was deliberately written to be vague to be inclusive of whatever arms might be available to “the people” in the future. Our forefathers were extremely intelligent, but in their arrogance they didn’t account for the willful ignorance and self loathing the left is now bringing to the table.

      “2: If you are living in a small sub urban neighborhood and you have a pistol with a ten round capacity I am pretty sure your home and person are safe without an “assault weapon”. I agree the term is often used ambiguously. I want to ask what Mr. Crystals idea of an assault weapon would be. As for our liberty as long as people exercise their right to speak and print and assemble we have no need for guns to protect us from tyranny.”

      - Ok, please be sure to create a setting congruent (and convenient) to your argument. Another great tactic the left is adept at. Put me in a suggestively safe suburban neighborhood before you tell me how obsolete any magazines over 10 rounds are. How about I don’t live in such a safe place? Also, be sure to use the term “assault weapon”, which again is evocative of emotions running high because they have been used in recent mass shootings – but please leave out that my guns will never be used to “assault” anyone, and that statistically speaking, such firearms are used in less than .002% of gun crimes. As for your argument that liberty will surely ring free when the presses are still running, please do note that those that control the guns will control the presses. Anyone with one high-school history class under their belt should be able to figure that out.

      “3: No one liberal or conservative says that guns cause crime. They simply point out that ready access to them and the misguided belief that one needs a gun in order to solve their problems causes ever more crime. The argument against drunk driving is not that cars cause drunk driving. But ready access to cars for drunks is an issue that should be dealt with.”

      - Bravo on the statement “gun in order to solve their problems”. Nice one. Ambiguous enough to suggest that guns are used to settle financial debts and end troubled relationships. Hey, those are problems, right? Very scary. How about the problem being a 250 lb. felon beating down my door, or a meth head targeting a young coed walking to her car after a study group? (I can do it too) You are now poised to curtail the liberties of all drivers now because they might drink? Hail to you, keeper of liberty. Nice crossover and misdirection on that one.

      “4: It isn’t “so called” high capacity. A 30 round pistol or rifle can cause significant damage. And its not for nothing that guns in the home can pose a danger to children if improperly contained. And its some what of a contradiction to keep a weapon in the home which requires opening a safe or locked drawer in order to obtain. An alarm system, good locks and a trained dog are all good forms of defense. Of course each city or town is different and we have to apply different levels of security to different places. But perhaps that is the point. In small towns where people know each other and where crime rates may not be so high there really is no need for guns with 20 or 30 round capacities. In places where a home invasion is unlikely and where a burglar is far more likely to wait till no one is home to break in a gun with a large shot capacity or even a gun at all is an unnecessary danger.”

      - Let’s be clear. A pistol or rifle, even with 1000 rounds, doesn’t cause damage, the person wielding it does. You just said above “no one liberal or conservative says that guns cause crime”, please don’t be hypocritical. My in-home defense handgun is in a biometric safe that gives me access within 2 seconds, but keeps my 2 year old away from it just fine. So you now determine need based on crime rates? Your argument might sound “reasonable” to someone sympathetic to the need to do “something” based on the horrors of Newtown. But news flash – “need” is not part of the 2A. “Shall not be infringed” is. My hypothetical garbage arguments that suggest that need is subjective. It isn’t.

      “5: I am a liberal and I do not believe cosmetic features make a gun more dangerous and that they should be banned. Therefore this is not a liberal theory since there is at least one liberal who disagrees with it.”

      - You’re liberal??!? You hide it so well. /sarcasm off again

      “6: Gun control was not implemented in Nazi Germany until 1938 long after Hitler came to power: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html

      - “Gun control was not implemented in socialist America until 2014, long after Obama came to power….” Sound familiar?

      “It wasn’t lack of guns that lead to the downfall of the Weimar Republic. It was lack of faith in the Republic and the belief that they needed a strong leader to dispense justice from on high and destroy the undesirables of Germany. It was when people put more faith in the sword than in the pen that their Republic died.”

      Um, yea. We are well past that point here. Look around and see how soft and stupid everyone has become. A few days of being hungry will put it all in perspective. It will probably come in our lifetimes, and I would rather fend for myself then be rounded up and “taken care of” by the elites that claim title over us now.

      “It is not when a person has no guns that they are powerless. Its when they believe they are powerless because they have no gun.”

      A very noble sentiment, written by someone who has clearly had a pretty easy life. You can hold on to that one when the lead starts flying. Me? I will be shooting back.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Srsanbo

        1: I am not trying to be bias. I am trying to be reasonable. Mr. Crystal acted like the idea that when it was written The phrase Arms in the second amendment referred to Flintlocks and Muskets. I was pointing out that at the time Arms did technically mean that. No liberal bias. Just pointing out a simple truth. I know the founders intended that the Constitution change to fit ever evolving circumstances. I was just under the impression that only liberals thought that it was a changing document.

        2: I was referring to my home town which has a low crime rate and where there hasn’t been a murder in nearly 6 years. And its a town with a population of over 50,000. And by the way I did concede that not every town is like mine and people have to adapt to their own circumstances. And I will not use the term assault weapon. I will use the term semi automatic rifle with a 30 shot capacity. As for your theory about those with guns controlling the Press that is Fascism. Our founders were Republicans who believed in a Free Press and Representational Democracy. That’s why they gave us the First Amendment.

        3: Guns are “used to settle financial debts and end troubled relationships.”. Just watch any crime show or police video show. As for someone breaking into your house I say you can have a few pistols and rifles in your home with a ten shot capacity. I have said you can have a dog and good locks. You can have bats. You can learn self defense. I never said be defenseless. I just say don’t turn your home into a bunker. Like wise I never said don’t let anyone drive. I just said don’t let drunks drive. Don’t let bar tenders serve drunks. Penalize those who allow drunk people to leave their homes without making sure their with a designated driver.

        4: It is not hypocritical to say that a gun in and of itself cannot cause damage but it makes causing damage much easier. As for your personal gun good job with the safe. I think that is a good idea. As for needs based on crime rates. We live in a Republic and do not need fear a tyrannical government. If you are not a hunter and crime rates are low in your town I see no reason to keep a powerful weapon in the home. Good lucks and a n alarm system are just as capable of preventing crime. A criminal is far more likely to attack a house with no one in it and where there is no chance of getting caught. Indeed I am using hypothetical arguments and examples. But that is what life is especially concerning matters of crime. It is the unknown. Its how do we respond to what could happen. I am trying to base response to actual threat. If the police force or neighborhood watch in your town is good and the crime rates are low I see no reason to keep a 30 magazine capable rifle or pistol in your home. It is your right to. But I do not see it as the right thing to do. So I will speak out on it.

        5: I was never trying to hide the fact that I am liberal. I was trying and still do to lay my cards on the table so there is no misconception about my views. Apparently it did not work.

        6: Yes not until 2014 when Obama had a congress controlled by the opposing party and where he only had one year before entering lame duck status.

        7: No one is rounding up anyone. And as long as you and I continue to debate on this site or in public instead of shooting each other there is still hope. Its only when we start losing faith in the first amendment that we lose our Republic.

        8: I have been blessed and cursed. My life has not been a bed of roses. I have seen terrible things and I have dealt with the scum of humanity. I choose to hold myself up to a higher standard. And please do not consider me helpless Srsanbo. I will fight to the death to protect what I love. I just choose not to instigate the fight. And I choose to try and hold myself back. And when all else fails I remember the words of the Mahatma: “They may torture my body, break my bones, even kill me. Then they will have my dead body, but not my obedience.”

    • Nathan Smith

      My dear sir,

      Do you really think that excercising your First Ammendment rights will be enough to stop tyranny? Seriously, a tyrannical government can take that away from you very easily without a way for you to enforce it. It is easy to say that firearms are not needed when you have spent a life in comfort and liberty. Try living in a state of absolute rule for awhile and then come talk to us patriots about the need for self civil defense. Oh yeah, by the way, without a way to enforce liberty, your individual right to think and act for yourself is gone. This is why the Framers of the Constitution wrote the right to keep and bear arms second. They new the importance of trying to settle things peacefully first which is why the Frist Ammendment is written the way it is. The Scond Ammendment is there to remind tyrannical idealists to behave themselves. It is also there to provide aide to our military should we ever be invaded by someone like China or North Korea. Beyond popular belief, out military is not big enough to repel a full invasion from multiple borders.

      Mr. Leochner, I would encourage you to read the history behind this nation prior to July 4, 1776. A lot of peaceful attempts were tried first before a shot was even fired. They were there, you were not. Your opinions are just that, and you are certainly entitled to them. That is the only entitlement that is ligitimate.

      Regards

      N Smith

      • kimo3690

        INDEED!!! Obama has sanctioned “No Free Speech Zones” is that not an “infringement” on the 1st Amendment?? We have “No Gun Zones” is that not an “infringement” on the 2nd Amendment???

        Tyranny is a slow methodical process that uses code words and media (propaganda) and numbin/dumbin down the masses as it spreads like a “cancer” in OUR Nation.

        Enough of the division, WE are AMERICANS; A CREED; NOT A RACE……… oldest trick in the book to take over is to DIVIDE & CONQUER… then TAKE OVER!!!

        TY MY Patriot FRIEND!!!

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Nathan the rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness are self evident. No governmental act can take that away from you. And as long as people speak out their rights cannot be taken away. And bear in mind I never said people should not be able to defend themselves. I just remember that Gandhi did not need guns. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks did not need guns. Harvey Milk did not need guns. Cesar Chavez did not need guns. You don’t need guns to be free or to effect change.

    • Capitalist at Birth

      Such a long winded attempt to confuse the issue. It doesn’t matter what fire arms were available now. What don’t you understand about “shall not be infringed”? I would be willing to bet you score low on reading comprehension tests. If you don’t like the 2nd Amendment, there is a long involved process to change it. If you want to disarm me, come and do it yourself. Of course you won’t. You will send a gang of thugs in your stead. Because you are a coward.

    • Frank Kahn

      Hello Jeremy, I am sure others will try to help you see the errors of your post but I love to type so here goes

      Jeremy Leochner says:
      February 26, 2013 at 1:31 am

      “None of these are liberal arguments.”

      YOU ARE A LIBERAL, SO IF YOU SUPPORT THE ARGUMENT, IT IS A LIBERAL ARGUMENT.

      “1: When the second amendment was written “Arms” did technically refer to flintlocks and muskets since those were the only arms at the time.”

      IF THIS IS NOT A LIBERAL ARGUMENT, PLEASE IDENTIFY THE CONSERVATIVE MAKING THIS ASSERTION. EVEN IF IT WAS TRUE, WHICH IT IS NOT, THE AMENDMENT DOES NOT SAY FLINTLOCK OR MUSKETS, IT SAYS ARMS. MUSKETS WERE NOT THE ONLY ARMS OF THE TIME. THERE WERE CANNONS, SWORDS, LANCES (SPEARS), KNIVES (BAYONETS) AND BOW AND ARROWS.

      “2: If you are living in a small sub urban neighborhood and you have a pistol with a ten round capacity I am pretty sure your home and person are safe without an “assault weapon”. I agree the term is often used ambiguously. I want to ask what Mr. Crystals idea of an assault weapon would be. As for our liberty as long as people exercise their right to speak and print and assemble we have no need for guns to protect us from tyranny.”

      YOU MIX MANY IDEAS HERE, AND EACH HAS A DIFFERENT PROBLEM.

      A. SOME SUBURBS ARE LARGER THAN MOST CITIES IN MY PART OF THE COUNTRY, SO WE NEED A DEFINITION OF SMALL HERE. IF, YOUR SMALL SUBURB IS LARGER THAN THE CITY I LIVE IN, DO I GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF AMMO? WHY DO YOU PICK 10 ROUNDS AND A PISTOL? ARE YOU AWARE THAT MOST PEOPLE, IN A FEAR CRISIS WILL CONTINUE TO FIRE A WEAPON UNTIL IT IS EMPTY REGARDLESS OF TARGET ACQUISITION? THAT MEANS THAT THE PERSON WILL PROBABLY EMPTY THE 10 ROUNDS AT THE FIRST TARGET THEY SEE, IF THERE IS A SECOND, THEY ARE S.O.L.. CALIBER SELECTION IS ALSO VALID, A 22 PISTOL WILL NOT SCARE CRIMINALS AS MUCH AS THE BARK OF A .44 MAG PISTOL GOING OFF.

      B. I AM CERTAIN MR. CRYSTAL HAS GIVEN HIS KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT A REAL ASSAULT WEAPON IS HOWEVER, IT IS A SELECT FIRE CAPABLE OF AUTOMATIC FIRE WEAPON.

      C. THIS IS THE BIGGEST ONE ON PROBLEMS. PILOTS HAVE A SAYING “IT IS BETTER TO BE STUCK ON THE GROUND WISHING YOU ARE FLYING THAN TO BE STUCK IN THE AIR WISHING YOU WERE ON THE GROUND”. WITH GUNS, IT IS “IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A GUN AND NOT NEED IT THAN TO NEED IT AND NOT HAVE IT”. IF YOU WAIT TILL YOU NEED A GUN, IT IS ALREADY TOO LATE.

      “3: No one liberal or conservative says that guns cause crime. They simply point out that ready access to them and the misguided belief that one needs a gun in order to solve their problems causes ever more crime. The argument against drunk driving is not that cars cause drunk driving. But ready access to cars for drunks is an issue that should be dealt with.”

      HERE WE HAVE A PERCEPTION PROBLEM. SINCE MANY OF THE LIBERALS IN GOVERNMENT ARE PUSHING LEGISLATION TO RESTRICT SALES AND OWNERSHIP OF WEAPONS, IT IS BY DEFINITION SAYING THAT GUNS ARE THE PROBLEM, NOT THE PEOPLE. WHILE YOUR DRUNK DRIVING ANALOGY AND CARS IS VALID, IT IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE PUSHING IN THE GUN VIOLENCE AGENDA. WE RESTRICT DRUNKS FROM DRIVING CARS, SO WE SHOULD RESTRICT CRIMINALS FROM HAVING GUNS. RESTRICTING THE LEGAL PURCHASE OF GUNS DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH THIS. YOUR OTHER POINT ABOUT USING GUNS TO SOLVE PROBLEMS IS CORRECT. THIS PROBLEM, HOWEVER, IS A PARENTING AND EDUCATIONAL PROBLEM NOT A GUN PROBLEM.

      “4: It isn’t “so called” high capacity. A 30 round pistol or rifle can cause significant damage. And its not for nothing that guns in the home can pose a danger to children if improperly contained. And its some what of a contradiction to keep a weapon in the home which requires opening a safe or locked drawer in order to obtain. An alarm system, good locks and a trained dog are all good forms of defense. Of course each city or town is different and we have to apply different levels of security to different places. But perhaps that is the point. In small towns where people know each other and where crime rates may not be so high there really is no need for guns with 20 or 30 round capacities. In places where a home invasion is unlikely and where a burglar is far more likely to wait till no one is home to break in a gun with a large shot capacity or even a gun at all is an unnecessary danger.”

      ON THIS ONE YOU SLIP INTO COMPLETE LIBERAL SPEAK AND IT IS A LIBERAL ARGUMENT. IT IS, “SO CALLED” HIGH CAPACITY BECAUSE IT IS ARBITRARY. HIGH CAPACITY MIGHT ALSO MEAN 50 OR 100 ROUNDS. THE STANDARD CAPACITY OF AN AR-15 IS MORE THAN 10, SO HOW CAN IT BE HIGH CAPACITY IF IT IS STANDARD? SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE? A 44MAGNUM WITH 8 ROUNDS WILL DO MORE DAMAGE THAN A 22 WITH 20. ANY GUN CAN POSE A DANGER IF IT IS HANDLED IMPROPERLY, CONTAINMENT, AS YOU CALL IT, IS NOT NECESSARY IF EVERYONE IS AWARE OF THE RULES OF GUN HANDLING SAFETY. SOMEWHAT OF A CONTRADICTION? IF YOU HAVE A GUN FOR SELF PROTECTION, IN YOUR HOME, AND YOU HAVE TO RETRIEVE IT FROM A SAFE AND THEN LOAD IT, YOU ARE PROBABLY DEAD. YES, ASSUMING WE ALL TURN INTO PARANOID LITTLE CHICKENS, AND HIDE IN OUR LOCKED HOME WITH A ROTTWEILER DOG AND THE ALARM SYSTEM ARMED, WE MIGHT NOT NEED A GUN.

      “5: I am a liberal and I do not believe cosmetic features make a gun more dangerous and that they should be banned. Therefore this is not a liberal theory since there is at least one liberal who disagrees with it.”

      JUST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH SOME OTHER LIBERALS DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT LIBERALS (IN GOVERNMENT) WANT TO DO IT.

      “It is not when a person has no guns that they are powerless. Its when they believe they are powerless because they have no gun.”

      WRONG, THE PREMISE IS BACKWARDS, YOU ARE POWERLESS IF YOU HAVE NO GUNS, YOU HAVE NO POWER IF YOU HAVE NO WEAPONS.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Frank

        1: The fact that the word arms at the time of the second amendment referred to flintlocks and muskets was not created by liberals. And since when did conservatives believe the constitution is a living document. I thought only liberals were supposed to believe that.

        2: I admitted in my post that not all towns and cities are the same.

        3: If someone is going to fire off all their rounds regardless of the situation perhaps they should not be relying on a gun for defense.

        4: Mr. Crystal hasn’t given a definition of assault weapon. And if it is as you say then I agree with you.

        5: If you do not need a gun it is a danger to you and your family: http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100204/Guns-in-homes-can-increase-risk-of-death-and-firearm-related-violence.aspx

        And if you had things like good locks and a security system and a dog and self defense training or any combination of those you may not “need” a gun ever. I base my actions on likely threats like a break in when I am not home or a single bad guy who can be scared off or fended off with a single weapon. People have a right to carry weapons like guns for self defense. But it doesn’t mean they need them.

        6: Restricting the legal purchase of guns is how we restrict criminals from getting guns. In the same way we make it illegal to drink and drive we have back ground checks to make sure the person trying to buy a gun can in fact be trusted with a gun. We don’t let drunks drive and we don’t let mental patients buy guns.

        7: Parents can’t teach children not to rely on guns when so many keep talking about how much we need guns.

        8: Questioning an argument which I disagree with does not make me a liberal. I don’t support arbitrary definitions of high capacity. I just don’t know enough about guns myself to provide my only proposals on legislation governing magazine capacities. I will learn as much as I can. For now if a law is proposed and I agree with it I will vote for it. If I disagree I will oppose it.

        9: Here is where I develop a problem understanding Frank. Wanting to have a dog and an alarm system makes me a “PARANOID LITTLE CHICKEN”. Even as you say such a measure would mean I ” MIGHT NOT NEED A GUN”.With respect Frank it sounds like your saying that taking defensive measures which would keep my family safe makes me a coward. But keeping offensive weapons which could hurt my family means I am brave. This makes it seem like less an issue of personal protection and more about personal preference and paranoia. You basically just admitted to me Frank that you don’t need a gun to protect your family. And for some reason you choose to insult me and others for trying to protect their families in a way which they believe in and which you yourself appear to endorse as an effective defense. I apologize if I seem rude Frank but that is my impression of the argument you just made.

        10: So you admit these are not liberal arguments. They are “liberals in government” arguments. Okay that I can somewhat agree with. Its less generalizing and slightly more accurate than Mr. Crystals suggestion.

        11: “YOU HAVE NO POWER IF YOU HAVE NO WEAPONS.”

        Try telling that to Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, The Tiananmen Square Protestors, Harvey Milk, Cesar Chavez and Mother Teresa.

      • Nick Czudy

        HI frank. Long time no chat with you.
        I read with interest what you said to Jeremy L. Some of it made some sense but other parts were biased and typical right wing responses. In other words the gun worshiper’s answer.

        What was interesting to night was a poll that showed that 60% of Americans want stiffer gun controls.
        Also the by-election in Illinois to replace Jesse Jackson, was a surprise. The front runner and incumbent was a Dem with a NRA “A” rating. She had her clock cleaned by someone that had an “F” rating“ Another key ad that is running is one with General McCrystal and other generals that were saying that the AR15 type of weapon belongs on a battle field and not on our streets and cities. He stated that the amount of damage they inflict on a body is immense. They are the professionals and I respect their opinion.

        Now to your response to Jeremy.
        1. when they wrote the part of “Arms” they were certainly referring to muskets and flint locks. They would not add that to mean knives and clubs, etc. as those items would not have any restrictions. It is obvious. Also, I do not think that the science of that era would allow any one of the founding fathers to invision the advances in firepower. they would not be able to believe that you could keep pulling a trigger and shoot multiple shots instead without reloading. In 1865 during the civil war, that one difference would have made a massive difference.

        2. A. It might come to pass that a person would empty their guns in panic. But it is also possible that they would measure every shot and shoot sparingly. They would need the proper training if they get licensed to own and operate a gun. these types of people would be dangerous with a gun. A good gun for home defense would probably be a glock with a 10 bullet capacity. they could easily have two or three extra magazines and they could exchange them easily if they are in the safety of their homes. There might be a possibility if having bad luck and run out of bullets exactly when the bad guys do an all out assault. But the likely situation is that they will turn and run as it will not be worth their effort to get shot up for what they might be able to steal.

        2. B. Retired 4 star general Stanley McCrystal specifically mentioned that the .223 caliber is a military weapon that belongs on a battlefield and not on our streets. It projects massive damage on the human body. some of the Sandy Hook children were torn apart with multiple hits of this caliber. I will tend to believe him.

        2. C. You are correct here, it is better to have a gun than not have one when needed. There will be many choices available for you to mount a defense. In fact you could have a pistol, some extra mags, a shotgun and for longer and more accurate shooting some kind of rifle. You should be able to mount a decent defense. I mean if you pissed off the mob and they have come in force, then you will need more hardware, but the majority of citizens will be fine with the above.

        3. The issue now is not that guns cause crime, It is the easy access to guns that encourage more crimes. The lack of registration and tracking means that it is easy for people to buy them black market or from straw purchasers. I vaguely remember that in Arizona, for the fast and furious, that an 18 year old unemployed man purchased about 30 to 50 guns, paid cash and stated that they were all for his personal use. Yeah, get serious. This type of straw purchases need to be stopped. It was far too easy for straw purchasers to procure guns for illicit use.

        4. The high capacity questions if getting narrowed down to be somewhere above 10 bullets. Definitely 30 to 100 is not a question. But maybe 10 to 15 will be debated and we will see what happens. The case is that when the shooter has to change magazines, then the victims have a chance to over power them. Even a schoolteacher at Sandy Hook. if hit by the 9th and 10th bullet, could jump the shooter and give the kids a chance to escape. The number will have to be debated. I cannot think of a reason for home defense to have a larger capacity. Some of the higher magazines are more prone to jamb, especially if not cleaned properly and maintained.

        5. It is not an issure. Cosmetic issues are not a concern, If they improve the capacity or speed, then it might be a problem.

        Come on the typical right wing reply of the possibility of taking all of the guns are not possible. That excuse will not hold any water.
        take care.
        nick Cz

  • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    Ben Crystal,

    SIR, I DISAGREE WITH THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU FRAMED YOUR ARGUMENT. YOU UTILIZED “SELECTIVE” COMMON SENSE, INSTEAD OF, TOTAL COMMON SENSE.

    YES, THE FOUNDING FATHERS COULD UNDERSTAND THERE WOULD BE FUTURE ADVANCEMENTS IN GUN TECHNOLOGY – BUT, THEY COULD NOT BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE FUTURE’S TOTAL BREAKDOWN OF CIVILITY AND MORALITY. REMEMBER, Mr. Crystal, WHEN EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY GENTLEMEN HAD AN UNRESOLVABLE DISAGREEMENT, THEY FACED-OFF IN A DUEL. THE SIMPLE GUNS THEY HAD WERE SUFFICIENT. IN 2013, BEING A “GENTLEMAN” MEANS MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS; BUT, IF YOU DO NOT MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, I MUST ENSURE – FOR MY OWN SAFETY – THAT MY GUN IS MORE POWERFUL THAN YOURS. THE FOUNDING FATHERS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND A NEED FOR VICIOUS FIREPOWER TO SETTLE “UNGENTLEMANLY” DISPUTES.

    MY POINT IS, Mr. Crystal, THE FOUNDING FATHERS HAD NO CONCEPT OF, “Gangsta Life” – WHICH INCLUDES NO GENTLEMEN. SO, THE FOUNDING FATHERS’ VIEW OF ADVANCEMENTS IN GUN TECHNOLOGY WOULD STILL HAVE A BASIS IN PEOPLE WHO ACTED HUMANELY WITH EACH OTHER.

    HENCE, Mr. Crystal, IT IS WRONG TO IMPLY THE FOUNDING FATHERS WOULD CONSIDER ASSAULT-STYLE WEAPONS TO BE ACCEPTABLE FOR PERSONAL USE.

    • Vicki

      CAH Writes:
      “YES, THE FOUNDING FATHERS COULD UNDERSTAND THERE WOULD BE FUTURE ADVANCEMENTS IN GUN TECHNOLOGY – BUT, THEY COULD NOT BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE FUTURE’S TOTAL BREAKDOWN OF CIVILITY AND MORALITY.”

      Sure they did.

      “Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. ” John Adams
      https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Adams

      Even covers the “gansta life”

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Vicki,”

        I DISAGREE. President John Adams’ COMMENTARY IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE THE FOUNDING FATHERS HAD NO CONCEPT OF SLAVERY ENDING. THEREFORE, THE BAD BEHAVIOR President Adams MENTIONED IS BASED ON A CAUCASIAN MIND UNDERSTANDING HOW CAUCASIANS ACT BADLY. THE FOUNDING FATHERS WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND HOW “FREE” NEGROES ACT BADLY.

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON,

        You write: “THE FOUNDING FATHERS HAD NO CONCEPT OF SLAVERY ENDING.” Your knowledge of history is sorely lacking.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • Jana

        Christopher,
        Why does everything have to start and end with slavery for you. If you dwell in slavery you are still a slave.
        Grow up, you are free. Your people are free. My people are free. Move onward and forward and you can be helpful, but to keep harping on slavery all of the time shows you are stuck in a slavery mindset, and will never truly be free. Help yourself out here.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        OKAY, Bob Livingston, I ADMIT American History IS NOT MY INTEREST. BUT, SIR, NAME O-N-E FOUNDING FATHER [OF SUBSTANCE] WHO BELIEVED UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WOULD EXIST AND PROSPER WITHOUT SLAVERY. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING President Martin Van Buren WAS THE LAST PRESIDENT WHO CONSIDERED SLAVERY TO BE TOTALLY AGREEABLE.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON,

        The slavery issue was much discussed during the Constitution ratifying convention. There was a strong contingent that wanted to end slavery, therefore there were some Founding Fathers. They were not the majority and several states would not have ratified had slavery been abolished. As for names: Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Rush, John Adams and John Jay all led anti-slavery factions in their states. Others were James Madison, William Livingston, James Monroe and John Marshall.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • Vigilant

        Horton shouts “NAME O-N-E FOUNDING FATHER [OF SUBSTANCE] WHO BELIEVED UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WOULD EXIST AND PROSPER WITHOUT SLAVERY.”

        Virtually every one of them knew that slavery’s days were numbered, and that it would be just a matter of time before the “abominable institution” would die.

        A word to the wise (which you are not): Don’t come on this site and challenge Mr. Livingston or myself regarding matters of American history when you are ignorant of it yourself.

      • Nick Czudy

        Why Not? Mr Livingstone’s comments are biased and not always factual. He can be challenged as much as anyone else. Lets look at his predictions on the election to be indicative on how much one takes his comments as gospel. He is good at it though.
        Too many times his answers are meant to illicit emotional responses from the right wing base and in that he succeeds.

      • Bob666

        Yo Nick,
        Bob knows is audience like a good comedian and that is not to say that he is a comedian (well, he certainly would qualify more than Ben Crystal). While many of his topics do promote thought, I do believe that he knows how to stir the pot & fan the flames and get his audience motivated. After all, he does have a business model and does a pretty good job at keeping attendance up

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        THANKS, “Nick Czudy,”

        Personal Libertarians LOVE TO JUMP-ON Bob Livingston’s BANDWAGON WHEN HE TAKES A “SHOT” AT SOMEONE MANY CONSIDER TO BE AN OGRE. BUT – AS I HAVE TYPED BEFORE – WHEN Mr. Livingston ASKS THESE PEOPLE QUESTIONS, THEY TRANSFORM INTO “church mice.” AND, THEY LOVE TO TELL OTHERS, “You do not know what you are talking about!”

      • Bob666

        Yo CHA,
        I don’t always agree with you, but I do believe you to be sincere in your comments. Help us out and use lower case letters, they are easier on the eyes.

    • rendarsmith

      “MY POINT IS, Mr. Crystal, THE FOUNDING FATHERS HAD NO CONCEPT OF, “Gangsta Life” – WHICH INCLUDES NO GENTLEMEN. SO, THE FOUNDING FATHERS’ VIEW OF ADVANCEMENTS IN GUN TECHNOLOGY WOULD STILL HAVE A BASIS IN PEOPLE WHO ACTED HUMANELY WITH EACH OTHER.”

      Ok. So how are we going to get the guns away from “gangstas”? Approach them and ask politely?

      • eddie47d

        Plain and simple Rendarsmith. Close the Swiss cheese loopholes that the NRA and gun rights activists endorse. Slow down the gun running (yes the government too). You may think you are a Second Amendment champion,which you are yet you are also arming the criminals whether knowingly or unknowingly.

      • cawmun cents

        It occurs to me that if you have Blight in your garden,you get rid of it.
        Similarly if you have a criminal element loose in your society,you rid yourself of that too,correct?
        Not if you leave it to the liberals.
        These people are oppressed,that is why they are acting out in gang violence,is what a liberal will tell you.
        Yeah?
        So you are saying that if I decide that I am oppressed then I can take the laws of society at large in my own hands,and do as I please?
        Then dont try to take my firearms away liberal.I may consider that oppression,and begin randomly shooting my weapon,at any passerby on the street.Or worse yet,I may decide to gather up a few of my pals who practice weekly at the range and go hunting liberals.You do know that we conservatives see you as the opposing gang,dont you?
        But that kind of behavior is acceptable and allowed if I am poor and oppressed,right?
        No need to sweep up the dust in the house,if it can be moved around for aesthetics,correct?
        You play god in many poor peoples lives liberals.
        They are the ones that suffer so you can appear as if you really care.
        But the situation remains the same,nothing changes for the person who decides to feel oppressed,and takes his weapons to the street to take his anger out on his feelow citizens.Only the faces of the idiots writing media coverage of it changes.
        Meanwhile….back safely at his flat,liberal decides that poor and oppressed people need comforting and assistance.So he/she drafts laws designed to keep poor and oppressed folks that way,because it makes him/her appear philanthropical to his/her peers when he/she attends the local luncheons and functions.
        And the angry young people still act out their aggression when they get angry in the streets and no cleaning of the neighborhoods for safety of the poor and oppressed children ever happens.
        Why is this allowed to exist as a condition of your liberal society liberal?
        Do not the poor and oppressed people deserve to live in a quiet,safe,non-violent environment?
        Or will it make your perceived care for your fellow human beings too much of a stretch when it comes to appearnces at your award shows later?
        Instead of being the sheriff,and cleaning the towns,you keep the rats infesting the neighborhoods,so you can seem to act the pied piper when accolades are given.
        How gauche.
        How tremendouly evil and hypocritical is that?
        As long as you cut them a check and make sure they are fed,(however sparsely)you feel like you are changing the world!
        Nope…there is still blight in the garden,
        Why?
        Because as long as it stays in its spot and doesnt impact your visceral lives,you are okay with that.
        But what happens when you make me (the knowledgeable conservative) poor and oppressed?
        I dont think you can fully understand the complications that are coming if you do.
        But what do I know?
        Apparently very little…..
        Cheers!
        -CC.

      • eddie47d

        We’ve heard it all before CC and you almost had a good story. You’re not the only one who says they want to “hunt Liberals”. Since you are proclaiming to be the “knowledgeable” one I’ll beg to differ and label you.. Conservative as the dangerous one! Poor and oppressed my arse!

      • Don 2

        Universal Background Checks = Universal Gun Registration = Universal Government Confiscation

        Watch the video: http://www.nra.org

      • cawmun cents

        Ah eddie47d,
        Your deficit of character wont allow you to contemplate the depth of comtempt I have for your kith and kind.You know these conditions exist but you wont clean them up,you and your liberal friends.
        If there are plague rats infesting your garbage can,do you not remove them?
        I am referring to the gangs which indicriminately kill people every day in your progressive funded and controlled big cities,eddie47d.
        I do not hear you speak of these things,are they beneath your need for attention?
        You want to disarm the law abiding but yet you let the rats continue to infest your inner cities?
        You see this as progressive?
        Dont force me to laugh in your face.
        But that is the burden which you and your kind bring to me eddie47d.
        I wish it was hatred that stirred me to violence,but you and your liberal friends save that for small school age children caught in a war zone because you are too benevolent to clean up the mess you have been sweeping into the corner for the last 50 years.
        What I have for you is not hatred,rather it is contempt and pity.
        Contempt at your false analogies of what you believe is wrong about our nation,and pity that you arent ballsy enough to admit the real one which patently exist.
        You may consider me some Jethro Bodinesque CHARACITURE in your own mind,because you think I am too slow to accept your lofty idealism.
        But make no mistake,you are dealing here with an educated man who can think in ways you may not ever have imagined.
        Now please notate for all the other liberals out there in “intellectual easing land”,that there are thousands of folks just like me out here in reality world.
        We own and posess our own destinies,and if you try to take them from us,we may become agitated like the gun wielding gang members in your inner cities.
        Please also notate that we are capable of rational thought and tactical aprroaches to doing things in a far less simple way that gun wielding thugs which you allow to run rampant in the streets.We are seperated (from gang memebers) by our ability to deduce fact from fiction,which is why we are more dangerous than you could ever perceive.
        I do not speak for a group,nor am I gathering in one to make my point heard….yet.
        But you think that because I cant see your plastic mat idealism as truth and substantial,that I am some dumb redneck with a gun?
        That is both ignorant,and arrogant.
        Getting away with one or the other is one thing,but sporting both proudly at once is truly short-sighted eddie47d.
        But that is the bane of liberalism eddie47d,that which you do not perceive while your head is buried in the sand,can still bite your posterior.
        You failed to teach a proper education to the masses which you are now going to have to rely on to bail you out once you oppress me,the conservative white male.
        What are you going to rely on when tactics are needed?
        Do you think that the interns that write your materials now are capable enough?
        My bet is that you do.

        -CC.

      • eddie47d

        Apparently you are another one who can’t see the Conservative “rats” hiding behind the trees. I don’t need a long winded spiel to say that! I also have no intention in bowing down to their ignorance.

      • cawmun cents

        Gravy Skates…eddie47d
        You are hereby renamed Gravy Skates,because you are so wrapped up in your own feelings,that you refuse to work at anything.
        Thats okay……I know you mean well.
        -CC.

      • Jana

        Eddie,
        You just wallow in your own ignorance.

      • Don 2

        So eddie47d,

        How long have you been seeing Conservative rats hiding behind trees? Yikes! No guns for you.

      • eddie47d

        Don2; I see one now! LOL!!

    • hipshotpercusion

      Christopher, you are(pardon the pun)dead wrong. Most of the founders and writers in Colonial America understood about ruffians and criminals. Just obtain some of their writings to ascertain those facts. I would state that they understood what happened to the Roman Republic could happen to their posterity, that is why they gave us the Bill of Rights. In closing, please go and consult the 260 million + people who were disarmed then killed by their own governments in the 20th century.

    • CJ

      And I object to your yelling. It proves you have a pointless opinion and feel you need to yell to, somehow, improve its validity, which there is none.

    • Nathan Smith

      Mr. Horton,

      The intent was to be armed comparitively to the military. The military then had the best rifles available for the times and so did civilians, which made up the bulk of the military. Today they have the best rifles for the times and so should civilians. Ever heard of Selective Service? Those of us still registered my be called upond to defend this nation at some point, and quite frankly sir, we won’t be able to wait on being issued the necessary weaponry or do much with a bolt action rifle that only holds a max of 5 rounds…

    • Capitalist at Birth

      When did you communicate with the founding fathers? Have you read any of the millions of pages they have written? I didn’t think so. You should quit shouting, it discourages people from listening to anything you have to say. Which is of little importance.

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