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Gun Control Has Always Been A Part Of American History

January 25, 2013 by  

Gun Control Has Always Been A Part Of American History
PHOTOS.COM

Let’s allow momentarily for some advocacy of the devil in the gun debate and admit that, for better or for worse, gun control is deeply rooted in the history of the United States.

In our modern, sound bite society, the politicization of any given issue leads to a national discussion that includes neither historical reference nor reasonable debate. Evidence enough is the discourse that has emerged in the wake of the terrible tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School. And given our human limitations, coupled with a political system in which leaders benefit, both financially and in reputation, by screaming at the top of their lungs either for or against something, there’s no reasonable expectation of any well-thought-out or balanced ideas surfacing.

The debate thus far has been a fallaciously toned one, which ignores a trove of interesting historical footnotes that could no doubt lead the populace to a Constitutionally and socially responsible consensus on the right to bear arms. So far, Americans have instead been prodded into one of the following collective conclusions:

  • Children at Sandy Hook died at the barrel of a gun. A child dying is tragic; therefore guns are bad.
  • Mass killings sometimes involve assault rifles; therefore, banning assault rifles would stop mass killings.
  • Per the Constitution, gun control is un-American; therefore, there should be absolutely no gun control.
  • Gun control has preceded tyranny at some points in history; therefore, any advocate of gun control is an enemy of freedom.

To take on the first point, it is helpful to reference the President’s gun-control address that followed his signing of 23 executive actions related to guns earlier this month. At one point, President Barack Obama called for more gun-related research as he stood in front of a group of schoolchildren placed as an agenda-driving prop and uttered these words: “We do not benefit from ignorance.”

That is, perhaps, one of the most useful things the current President has ever said. So let’s not allow ourselves to be ignorant of the fact that even though what occurred at Sandy Hook was a heart-wrenching and senseless loss of life at the peak of innocence, children have been spared harm on numerous occasions when would-be assailants were stopped by firearms.

Next, if we are to believe that banning classes of firearms based on aesthetics will in any way make Americans safer from the prospect becoming the victim of a mass murderer, we must then accept that there will never be another Charles Whitman, Timothy McVeigh, highway sniper or Monroe Phillips in our midst.

Moving on the Constitutional issue of gun control, most conservatives — and the National Rifle Association, for now — will argue that the 2nd Amendment expressly prohibits infringement on the right to bear arms.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

But, as many religious people also do with the Bible, conservatives and liberals are guilty of failing to take the words as a whole. Conservatives often put all the emphasis of the Amendment on the latter phrasing, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The same holds true for liberals reading the Amendment, salivating over, “A well regulated…”

Conservatives would do better to further the cause of protecting the 2nd Amendment from draconian anti-gun legislation by refuting the assertions of the NRA and anyone historically dishonest enough to believe that the Founders’ vision of firearm responsibility lent itself to a libertarian free-for-all. The Militia Act of 1792 — which by some examinations lends credence to the President’s healthcare mandate — required the purchase of firearms by able-bodied men between the ages of 18 and 45 and the inspection of said firearms, and it led to door-to-door questioning about firearm ownership to create records of compliance.

From the Act:

I. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. And it shall at all time hereafter be the duty of every such Captain or Commanding Officer of a company, to enroll every such citizen as aforesaid, and also those who shall, from time to time, arrive at the age of 18 years, or being at the age of 18 years, and under the age of 45 years (except as before excepted) shall come to reside within his bounds; and shall without delay notify such citizen of the said enrollment, by the proper non-commissioned Officer of the company, by whom such notice may be proved. That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

The best possible gun legislation would solve two poignant modern American disagreements: How big does our military need to be, and who is allowed to own guns in America? British essayist Christopher Hitchens put it well in his 1994 essay “The Myth of Gun Control”:

In exchange for abolition of the military-industrial complex, who would not consider reporting for the occasional weekend – as in many democratic European nations – and acquiring the rudiments of weapons training, to be accompanied by a reading of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Utopian, you say. No more than the half-baked pacifism that, when preached by gun-controllers, has as its corollary a duopoly of force in the hands of the state and the criminal. Certainly no more utopian than the pathetic “guns for vouchers” swap meets that are now making police precincts a laughingstock as they concentrate on the disarmament of the law-abiding (and the opportunist).

While Congress mandated that any able-bodied man should be prepared to purchase a firearm and join a militia, there were certain segments of the population that were categorically denied the right to bear arms during this period. That group included slaves and free blacks as well as law-abiding white men who refused to swear loyalty to the new Nation.

While the idea of banning guns on a racial basis or in retaliation for failing to pledge allegiance to the State is unsavory, today’s gun laws also contain restrictions that are not so Constitutionally unfavorable. Gun bans on the basis of mental competency, criminality or routine chemically altered states of perception all seem reasonable to even the staunchest defenders of the right to bear arms.

A favorite accusation of gun grabbers, Piers Morgan in particular, is that 2nd Amendment advocates simply want to live in an “utter Wild West hell.” But Morgan fails to realize that the John Wayne and Clint Eastwood depiction of America’s frontier towns was not historically accurate. In fact, local gun laws that mandated that travelers turn over their six-shooters to the town lawman before entering populated town areas were popular at the time.

The Federal government didn’t get in to the business of banning classes of weapons until the 1930s when, emboldened by the government’s foolish prohibition of alcohol, gangsters like Al Capone became a force to be reckoned with when they took to the streets with fully automatic rifles that were a byproduct of World War I. Interestingly enough, the NRA fully backed legislation at the time to take automatic rifles off the streets.

Adam Winkler, author of  Gun Fight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America, recounts how NRA Director Karl Frederick appeared before Congress at the time and was asked whether the 2nd Amendment barred legislation that would restrict access to the weapons; he replied that he had “not given it any study from that point of view.”

His response reflects what the organization’s original intention had been. The NRA was started in 1871 by Union Civil War veterans Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate. Dismayed at the bad shooting skills of the men with whom they had served, they wanted to “promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis.” The organization spent the early part of its existence focused on shooting safety, hunter education and law enforcement and military training.

Perhaps the most accurate of the above-mentioned arguments against heavy regulation of guns is that the lack of firearms for self-defense often leads to tyrannical infringement. This is noted both in the Founders’ remarks about the importance of the 2nd Amendment and in the Nation’s historical record. Ironically, Obama, the Nation’s first black President and the man who so affirmatively stated only days ago that we do not benefit from ignorance, is ignorant of the gun views of the civil rights leaders whom he claims to so admire.

Throughout the Nation’s history, the gun-control laws that have been the harshest are those that were levied against blacks, who, as any compassionate, serious and well-informed student of history would be remiss to deny, have endured tyrannical force at many times since the Nation’s founding.

In the years leading up to the Civil War, States all over the Nation grew increasingly fearful of the prospect of a black uprising that they felt could be carried out by slaves or freed blacks. Nat Turner’s Rebellion in 1831 kicked off a number of gun-control laws aimed at blacks in America’s States.

Virginia responded to the rebellion by prohibiting free blacks the right “to keep or carry any firelock of any kind, any military weapon, or any powder or lead…” Later, in 1834, the Tennessee Constitution was changed from “That the freemen of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence” to “That the free white men of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence.” The antebellum South was rife with racist calls for gun control.

These abuses did not stop following the Civil War with the onset of black freedom and, in fact, continued through the Jim Crow-era South right up until the civil rights era.

Martin Luther King Jr., upon whose Bible Obama swore to uphold the Constitution on Monday, reportedly kept an arsenal of firearms in his home to ease his mind about the near-constant death threats he received. The peace-promoting civil rights leader even applied for an Alabama concealed carry permit, but was denied due to racism on the part of the police that had the authority to issue the permit. The Alabama permit law under which he was denied had been an NRA-backed initiative.

King knew that if his life was in danger, he could not count on the police for protection. His willingness to exercise his 2nd Amendment rights was also shared by other notable civil rights activists. Among them, Malcom X, who famously posed on the cover of Life magazine with an M1-Carbine.

The Black Panther Party took Malcolm X’s firearm brandishing and made it a part of their persona. At a time when police harassment of blacks was epidemic throughout the Nation, members learned about gun safety when they weren’t studying Marxism.

The YouTube videos of people open carrying through neighborhoods today to assert their 2nd Amendment Rights are reminiscent of similar armed displays by the Black Panthers in the late 1960s. Panther leaders Huey Newton and Bobby Seale said that because government was “either unable or unwilling to protect the lives and property” of blacks, they ought to defend themselves “by any means necessary.”

The Panthers took to patrolling urban neighborhoods while brandishing firearms to essentially “police the police,” who were infamous for abusing black Americans at the time.

Throughout all of this, the NRA has been on both sides of the gun debate and even supported a measure signed into law by then-Governor Ronald Reagan that set California on track to having some of the Nation’s strictest gun control laws. The 1967 Mulford Act effectively neutralized the Panther Police Patrols by prohibiting the carry of loaded guns in public.

At the NRA national convention in 1977, the group was overtaken by 2nd Amendment purists who shaped the organization more into the lobbying machine that it has become today. Oddly enough, the views the organization’s leaders now espouse are more Black Panther when it comes to gun control than target practice.

Gun control has always been a part of American history. And there is plenty of fairly obvious evidence for both sides of the debate to examine what has worked, what hasn’t and which gun control laws led to tyrannical force being used over segments of the population. If the emotional toll of dead children and the lucrativeness of NRA loudmouthing could be removed from the equation, the Founders’ true intentions could be fulfilled.

With hundreds of millions of guns in American homes, a gun-free future is not going to happen; if it is forced, a bloody and unwarranted fight is likely in the cards. But by taking a look at the gun laws we already have and understanding where they could improve, the debate can come to an end.

Instead of hacking for more membership money by saying what if feels will drive the most fear, the NRA should focus more than ever on its original mission of training Americans to be responsible and well-versed firearms owners.

In every State, before taking control of another potentially deadly machine a competency test is required. The process of driver licensing ensures that vehicle operators are physically and mentally capable of operating a motorized vehicle. Different classes of vehicles require different classes of licenses. Perhaps this is a good universal firearm requirement, both well-regulated and relatively un-infringed.

It’s unfortunate that options like these must be considered, but gone are the days when many young people are raised hunting and seeing the effects firsthand of what a firearm is capable of. Instead, watching the sometimes slow and painful death of an animal downed by a shot that was not placed just so has given way to young minds racking up mass computer-generated casualties onscreen, complete with bloody, cartoonish splatters and bodies that disappear rather than become cold and rot. The demographic of the most recent round of mass shooters makes this evident.

We don’t need new, misguided gun laws that harken back to the days of racial gun bans; we need an emphasis on responsibility and gun respect. And more than ever, we need leaders within the gun movement whose motives are pure.

Sam Rolley

Staff writer Sam Rolley began a career in journalism working for a small town newspaper while seeking a B.A. in English. After learning about many of the biases present in most modern newsrooms, Rolley became determined to find a position in journalism that would allow him to combat the unsavory image that the news industry has gained. He is dedicated to seeking the truth and exposing the lies disseminated by the mainstream media at the behest of their corporate masters, special interest groups and information gatekeepers.

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  • william wise

    think about this, if all guns in the usa were grabbed only criminals would
    have guns. next, any country that hates us can take over us and not
    a shot would be fired so be prepared for whats coming

    • mark

      No, william. Newsflash: we have something called the U.S. Military that prevents other countries from taking us over. Unbelievable.

      • rvncibeib1sgret

        Hate to bust your bubble yung’un! The US Military is spread out too thin still fighting decades old wars that need to be ended now! These troops are tired and worn out.
        Besides, the US military will never be used against the government. Just ain’t going to happen! If another country decided to invade us, our doctrinal retaliation would still be a nuclear exchange..

      • william wise

        ok, just remember i told you so, you might want to investigate
        jesse vetura’s programs on trutv or even on his website

      • KenPoland

        Oh my goodness, Mark, you can’t trust the military, they are under the control of that fearful government system we’ve been living under for more than a couple centuries. We are better off to trust that well armed neighbor to protect us. But, just make sure you have a more powerful weapon and more ammunition than he has. He just might want to take your property and the government can’t defend your property rights against his fire power.

    • KenPoland

      Profound wisdom and observation. William says only criminals would have guns if ALL guns were confiscated. Apparently they won’t have all been confiscated!

      Criminals are not born criminals. They choose criminal activity as they gain the courage to defy laws. Do you suppose some who chose to defy laws had a little boost in their courage because they had a gun in their hand?

      If registration of guns is required by administrative regulations to facilitate enforcement of laws already on the books and you refuse to register your gun, you are a criminal. I break the speed limit for automobiles now and then. That makes me a criminal by definition. I don’t want to be a criminal, so lets drop all speed limit restrictions. Does that make you feel safer?

  • David169

    This whole discussion is an exercise by the gun grabbers to make Americans believe they have a right to pass legislation infringing on our right to keep and bear arms. The Constitution gave the Federal Government certain enumerated limited powers. The “Bill of Rights” is a part of our Constitution that specifically enumerates matters which the Federal government is prohibited from entertaining or passing any legislation that effects these rights which are our birthright and define our freedom. Any legislation presented to infringe upon our right to keep and bear arms is treason. I suggest the Heller and McDonald decisions are mandatory reading for all Americans.

  • Truthbug

    Rolley, Livingston, Hogeland, and others give us valuable discussion to help our thinking. I think I like Bert Cundle’s attitude. I personally want to be more supportive of freedom than regulation, because it is so much more costly to move from tyranny to liberty than the other direction.

  • joerosey

    Boy, this article got a lot of comments…most people just miss the REAL cause of the reason for needing gun control…

    government (our government or any government) consists today of a ruling class, nobility, for lack of a better word. I know, it was never supposed to be that way in this country, but face the facts…it is. These nobels don’t give a rats ass about the people they rule, they only care about how much land (ruling power and authority) has been given to them.

    As a side…if you remember Bravehart, the old guy with leporsy said “it is the ability to compromise, that makes one noble”.

    In order to retain power, they must passify the pee-ons…give them food, give them healthcare, give them money.

    When their advisors tell them the money in the treasury is gone and things cannot continue as they are, what do they do ???

    They give everybody that is important to them a BIG raise. (wall street bailouts to the bankers, …also over the past few years, everyone in the administration and important Washington officials got BIG raises)…they did this to purchase their loyalty.

    Once their loyalty is assured, they must hold hack from the pee-ons, those things the pee-ons now consider a “right”…

    the pee-ons get angry with the nobels

    the nobels, under the guise of “necessity” (it’s for your own good…it is for the children…it’s your duty as a good American) start to remove or regulare or register any way the pee-ons could choose to rebel and kick the crap out of the nobels…if not guns, then magazines…if not magazines, then ammo…if not ammo, then primers.

    William Pitt once said “Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the arguement of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves.”

    Face the facts…the nobels don’t care about about us. They just don’t want us to get pissed off and shoot them.

    End of arguement !!!

    • mark

      No, poltical arguments never end.

  • KenPoland

    It is amazing what we read from contributors supporting both sides of the gun issues. But, is there really two sides to the issue? There are legitimate differences of opinions and methods to solve our social problems that guns are a part of. And certainly, guns are not the only social problems we have, but they are definitely in the mix of our problems.

    The extremists on either side are detrimental in finding any real answers or solutions. Calling Representative Feinstein a ‘communist’ is an attempt to alienate anyone from thinking she has any patriotic interest in the equation. Yes, I think she has gone overboard and is unrealistic in her proposals, but communism has nothing to do with my evaluation. President Obama is as American as anyone else and he certainly isn’t an embodyment of Hitler.

    The comments and cliches about guns or people killing and baseball bats killing more people than guns is a silly effort to find obfuscation. How many accounts of baseball bat killings can you recall, at the moment? How effective are you at dropping a rabbit or your adversary with a flick of your finger without a gun in your hand? What do you have a better chance of outrunning the reach of, a knife or a bullet?

    Read the entire constitution and see what the 2nd amendment does or doesn’t do. Go back and see what regulations were passed to enforce the intended meaning of the 2nd amendment. Are they applicable or workable today? Have there been conflicting regulations and statutes in our history of government? Did we change any of them?

    Why can’t we have an intelligent and productive debate that will address these problems?

    • Bruce L Redd

      OK Ken time to put up or shut up. I expect you to write a contextual interpretation of the 2nd amendment. I’m particularly interested in the meaning of the words militia, arms and infringed. this should take well less than an hour. I’ll be waiting

      • eddie47d

        All the proliferation of weapons in America and all the gun deaths by these weapons is infringing on my right to live and pursue my happiness. Most of these Arms don’t make me safer and they don’t make our nation any saner. They just give the criminal element more choices in which to choose from. As far as militias goes they haven’t been needed since the founding of our nation. They had an explicit purpose back then for they served as the standing army which is not the case anymore. Mr Pollard can also express himself if he chooses to.

      • KenPoland

        Well Bruce, would it make any difference if I gave you a concise definition of my opinions or if I would site document after document and case history upon case history? Would you bother to try understanding any of it? When did you last read the entire constitution and any relevant recording of discussions in the ‘constitutional convention’ that finally presented the finished product? Can you say you have studied any of the day to day regulations that were written to guide the authorities and administrators in society? Are you one of those who proclaims that we are a Christian nation and that our constitution and laws are based solely upon the Bible? Maybe you should do a little research and you might find that a great portion of our constitution and laws have been taken from Roman rules, English laws, common laws of society, etc. The fact is in all the recorded debates and discussions the Bible was very rarely brought into the discussion and is not referenced to at all in the finished constitution or any of the amendments.

        I’m not a constitutional professor nor am I a history major. But, I have read extensively the historical documents that discuss what motivated the revolutionists to rebel against their rulers and how they, together, organized their fellow comrads to overthrow their rulers. They attempted to band together a loosly knit group of colonies with no central authority. But, in just a few short years, they met in constitutional convention and decided to scrap the original form of government and came up with what we have now. That constitution has been amended 27 times. An indication that society is not eternally bound to the parameters of the ‘federalist’ style of our first government nor even the vastly improved new government of the 1790s.

        Perhaps you can give me a precise definition of ‘militia’. Now define that in a way that indicates we have a ‘well regulated militia’ with the vast assortment of arms in the possession of a bunch of civilians. Are you willing to pass muster and inspection to qualify as the 17 to 45 year olds did in the 1790s? Are you ready to drop what you are doing and follow the orders of somone just like yourself? Would you feel safe with your ‘well regulated militia’ against a trained regiment of professional killers? Would you like to jump right in and join your militia armed with the requirement of weapon and amunition spelled out in the first standards for the ‘voluntary’ militia of 1790?

        How do you propose to determine which ‘militia’ group is in charge and what the goal is?

        We cannot in this venue of comments answer all the questions and put together a realistic solution that will satisfy everyone. But, we can and should be able to carry on a civilized discussion that doesn’t degrade any one’s mental accumen or resort to name calling.

      • Don

        eddie 47d says that all the proliferation of guns in America and all the gun deaths by these weapons are infringing on my right to live and pursue my happiness; and most of these arms don’t make me safer. It is hard to recall a more idiotic statement. If arms don’t make you safer, it is probably because you either are prohibited from owning a firearm as a result of a criminal past, or mental issues, or you stupidly believe that being a victim is somehow morally superior to defending yourself. At any rate, you are clearly a useful idiot for the left, willing to say whatever it takes to rid yourself of your own freedoms and liberties.

      • Jana

        Don,
        BRAVO!!

      • Vicki

        Bruce L Redd.

        This dissertation may answer some of your questions. Though it focuses on the relationship of militia to the right of the people, it does begin to cover the meaning of some of the words.
        http://constitution.org/2ll/schol/2amd_grammar.htm

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “All the proliferation of weapons in America and all the gun deaths by these weapons is infringing on my right to live and pursue my happiness.”

        How?

        - eddie47d: “Most of these Arms don’t make me safer and they don’t make our nation any saner.”

        Proof by bald assertion and deliberaly vague (which arms?)

        - eddie47d: “They just give the criminal element more choices in which to choose from.”

        So you DO advocate disarming the standing army?
        http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/12/16/fbi-says-gang-infiltrators-stealing-military-weapons-for-sale-on-u-s-streets/

        - eddie47d: “As far as militias goes they haven’t been needed since the founding of our nation.”

        Since a well regulated militia is necessary for a free state and since we have not been free for many many years (maybe since the 1860s or 1913 or (choose a date) you may well be right.

        - eddie47d: “They had an explicit purpose back then for they served as the standing army which is not the case anymore.”

        They served IN PLACE OF, since the founders had good reason to distrust the Kings “Redcoats”.

        The founders were VERY clear on this. NO STANDING ARMY. It was so important to them that they spent an entire amendment to protecting the (obvious) right of the people to KEEP and BEAR arms so that the PEOPLE could form up into a militia.

        In fact that is what the 2nd Amendment says.

    • Bill Streb

      I’m sorry Ken. Obama is Not just as American as anyone else. He wasn’t born in the US, and his World Wide apology tours demonstrate clearly that he feels the USA is the problem, not the answer. There has never been a president who so obviously despised our country. And if you took the time to read some history, you would recognize that BHO is walking the USA down exactly the same path that Hitler did during his rise to power.

      • eddie47d

        There is no proof of what you say Bill Streb and nothing more than Republican talking points.

      • mark

        What utter and complete nonsense. If lying were eligible for it, Bill, you would receive an Academy Award in that category. Next you’ll be tellling us that the Pope is Jewish.

      • KenPoland

        I’m sorry Bill, the ‘birthers’ lost that argument a while back. Some folks just haven’t bothered to check the records. As for Pres. Obama following the leadership style of Hitler; well maybe you didn’t know that Hitler favored putting guns into every blonde headed ‘real German’s hands. Does his discription of ‘blonde headed real Germans’ kind of sound like ‘real red blooded patriotic Americans’? It seems to me I’ve heard that all human blood is red when it meets the open air and the American population is made up from every nationality, gender, creed, and religious affiliation you can name. The laws passed immediatly following WW1 outlawed guns in the general German public’s hands. Only the Jew were not allowed gun ownership under Hitler’s rule. Few religious leaders of any faith were highly respected in his inner circle. and that includes Arabs, Muslims, Fundamental Christians, Catholics, or any others you can tdentify. Pres. Obama doesn’t have to be your favorite man, but he is the exact opposite of Hitler, the man you think he mimics.

        Fox’s ‘fair and balanced news’ just can’t seem to ever give the rest of the story. Do you ever analyse for yourself other news cast stories? Are the right wing talk show hosts any more reliable with their entertaining monologue than any other ‘entertainers’?

        Have you ever participated in a ‘progressive’ or ‘liberal leaning’ discussion group. You don’t have to agree with them, but maybe you could find out for yourself whether everthing they say is ‘garbage’, ‘communistic’, ‘fascist’, etc. You might even discover that some of us like potatos and gravy, beef steak, caviar, etc. just like the conservative right wingers. Some of us pay as high or even higher taxes than you do. And yes, some of us complain about taxes and regulations. Some of us even own guns and hunt and fish. Some of us are workaholics and some of us are lazy. And believe it or not, some of us even think the gun tot’n folks are entitled to government protection. Most of us have no intention or desire to take every gun you own away from you. Registration is not confiscation. The ‘jack booted thugs’ you fear can walk in and search your homes whether you have registered guns or not.

        Differences of economic and social standards are ligitamate issues that need to be discussed in sane and reasonable fashion. Either side discrediting mental capacities and loyalties of the other side does nothing to unite this country. Proliferation of guns into society will not lesson the violence in society. Criminals will have no more guns with gun control than they do now. And yes, there will always be guns in the hands of the public, just like there will always be drunks on the road, regardless of laws. Most drinkers drink rewsponsibly and most gun owners are responsible. Does that mean we should negate all drunk driving laws or do away with all regulations concerning guns and their use?

    • mark

      Not on this site, Ken. Don’t even think about it. These people all live in the Republic of Deep Fear, Hatred, and Paranoia. It is their religion, their only reason for living. They get up every morning brimming with hatred and fear. And they go to sleep the same way. They teach this philosophy to their children who they sincerely hope will grow up to be terrified haters like themselves. On the bright side, they are mostly a cult with little power or influence in our society.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Excellent commentary by Ken.

      Ken asks, “Why can’t we have an intelligent and productive debate that will address these problems?” That’s a question I have been experimenting with today on PLD. I made some “SHOUT” comments about gun deaths in emulation of Vicki’s mindless and bludgeoning propaganda. If one reads the many responses to my comments, the answer to Ken’s question will become clear.

      The commenting on PLD is heavily weighted towards “motivated reasoners”—-those who want to believe something so badly that they don’t even try to read and understand what is said on the site. They will blindly lash out at anything or anyone that they perceive as going against their closely held “truths”. They tend to be extreme and unreasonable and the walking definition of “there’s just no talking to some people”.

      That doesn’t mean that all PLD readers are that way—-looking at the stats, there appear to be many more “viewers” that just visit the site without commenting, just as in the real world, there are many gun owners that do NOT agree with the extreme comments you see here. They, unfortunately, get drowned out by the screamers.

      Bruce and Bill are among those who miss the point because of their right-leaning motivated reasoning (and Bill verges on hopeless), and eddie (who I often agree with), has even gone a bit off the left edge here as well (sorry, eddie).

      There is some fault on the left to be sure, but I see the major impediment to “intelligent and productive debate” to be the mindless adherence to ideology by those on the right. As I said, “there’s just no talking to some people”, because they refuse to listen to anything but the voices in their own minds.

      • phideaux

        ” I made some “SHOUT” comments about gun deaths in emulation of Vicki’s mindless and bludgeoning propaganda. If one reads the many responses to my comments, the answer to Ken’s question will become clear.”

        You “SHOUTED” a bunch of unsupported numbers and have yet to provide any type of support for your numbers. Vicki, on the first day she used her numbers, provided her source for her claims.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Sorry, PHI—-You’ve got it backwards
        My numbers are better supported than Vicki’s—go look them up.
        Vicki, from the first day she used her numbers, has provided no source.
        Her ~300 is just a sloppy generalization that sounds good, nothing more.

      • Vicki

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        “Sorry, PHI—-You’ve got it backwards
        My numbers are better supported than Vicki’s—go look them up.
        Vicki, from the first day she used her numbers, has provided no source.
        Her ~300 is just a sloppy generalization that sounds good, nothing more.”

        You are now openly lying.

        From the very first day I posted I told you and others where the number came from and how YOU to could verify the number.

        Your claim of sloppy generalization is argumentative and irrelevant.

        You may come up with your own numbers where you take the exact US Population for that instant in time, then subtract ALL of the people who have shot someone (provide your source) and then do the (rather simple for people with both halves of their brain) math and you will come out with the same numbers I did.

        ~99.9% of the population DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a VERY few.
        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

        ~300 million is quite close enough to the actual number which will be between 300 million and The number given here http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html
        (absent holocaust or E.L.E.)

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Sorry, Vicki—-I hate to make you scream and writhe so much by tossing the holy water of truth on your vampiric little brain, but you are just grasping at straws here by saying,

        “You are now openly lying”

        I AM OPENLY SPEAKING TRUTH Sorry you don’t like it—-maybe if you paid more attention to speaking truth in your postings, you’d be more comfortable with it.

        I will REPEAT some truth. “Vicki’s ~300 is just a sloppy generalization that sounds good, nothing more”. And again, since repeated bludgeoning seems to be the way to get things across here—–”Vicki’s ~300 is just a sloppy generalization that sounds good, nothing more”.

        STOP TRYING TO DENY THERE’S A PROBLEM
        STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT GUNS ARE A FACTOR
        STOP TRYING TO SAY COMMON SENSE REGULATION MEANS GUN CONFISCATION

        STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH ~300 AMERICANS
        (and idiotic arguments about where that number came from)
        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

        PS I detect some “hostility” in your comment, Vicki—-no “flirting” here (except with the truth). Does this mean it’s “over” between us? Can you give me Jana’s phone number? Does she look like Sarah Palin?

      • Jana

        Right non brain,
        You wouldn’t know the truth if it came up and slapped you on your Socialist face.

      • phideaux

        “My numbers are better supported than Vicki’s—go look them up.”

        You have yet to provide a source for your numbers. Since you have been asked repeatedly to do so and have not the logical conclusion is you do not have a source and therefore are using numbers you pulled out of thin air or perhaps you got them from the south end of the north bound bull whose droppings you keep posting here.

      • Vicki

        Right Brain Thinker demonstrates the error of using just the right brain by writing on January 25, 2013 at 10:23 pm:
        “Vicki, from the first day she used her numbers, has provided no source.”

        RBT’s statement above is the lie.

        January 26, 2013 at 10:12 am he writes:
        - RBT: “STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH ~300 AMERICANS
        (and idiotic arguments about where that number came from)”

        This is why statistics (in spite of the observed fact that RBT throws statistics around a lot) seem to have no effect on RBThinking and anti gun people in general. They try to use argument to ridicule to tell you that a well recognized number that comes with an easy to find cite (just google US Population) is an idiotic argument.

        What is amusing is that RBT gets distracted by the number because it is so big. Proof in his own words above. He keeps referring to the 300 warriors of Sparta instead of the ~300 MILLION Americans.

        RBT then goes on with his attempts to personalize and ridicule with sexual innuendo further demonstrating that liberals are hypocrites. (I know. Like we didn’t already know that)

        And all the while

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS STILL HAVE NOT SHOT ANYONE

        ~99.9% of the population is INNOCENT
        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts (~0.01% based on RBT figures) of a few.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • Right Brain Thinker

        phideaux repeats the mindless argument—-”You have yet to provide a source for your numbers”, and talks to us about “logical conclusions”. It’s too bad that Fido and the others who spout that nonsense didn’t really have enough “logic” ability to understand what I was trying to say, and instead fall back on the old “show us your sources” argument. What they’re all saying is “I don’t like the SOUND of what I THINK you’re saying and therefore I will blindly attack what I have misinterpreted”.

        My “numbers” ARE real, and are just one set among many that may not agree exactly with each other but DO all point in the same direction—-there ARE gun deaths in America—-some suicides, some homicides, some accidents. What Fido wants to do is the equivalent of arguing about the EXACT time the sun comes up each day because he doesn’t want to accept the fact that it DOES come up every day.

        And Vicki?

        Vicki is still grasping at straws as she tries to hold together the ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~300 AMERICANS “argument” despite the fact that it is now old, tired, overused, and boring to all.

        STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH ~300 X 2 X 500 X 1000 AMERICANS
        (and idiotic arguments about where that number came from, and “sources”, and all the gibberish you state in deflectative, imperious, evasivatory, and obfuscatory sentences)

        Vicki is so frantic to grasp at straws that she talks about “They try to tell you that a well recognized number that comes with an easy to find cite (just google US Population) is an idiotic argument”. In her haste, Vicki forgets that i WAS THE ONE WHO FIRST CITED A SOURCE FOR THE NUMBER—-I got it from the Census Bureau’s Population Clock. Vicki is so proud of her ~3 X 600 X 2 X 500 X 4 X 250 divided by 5 AMERICANS and so eager to keep it going that she forgot that FACT. She also ignores the fact that it is her “idiotic arguments” against talking about GUN DEATHS that I have been attacking all along, NOT the ~300 number or the basic truth of her original implication.

        More evidence of grasping at straws is Vicki making a big deal out of the 300, and even talking about Spartans—-perhaps she is not as dumb as she appears and knew I would appreciate the Spartan reference—-Marines do love Spartans. Naaaaah, she’s not that smart.

        I have to laugh when Vicki talks about “personalizing” attacks—-isn’t this PLD we’re posting on? Which could just as easily stand for Personalized Loudmouthed Defamation”. LOL She then plays the “sex” card, although much more intelligently than Jana, who preferred the bludgeon of “sexual harassment”. “Sexual innuendo” says Vicki, and cleverly sashays over to “further demonstrating that liberals are hypocrites. (I know. Like we didn’t already know that)”. Minor score, but it will go over big with the ignorant.

        Vicki just keeps grasping at straws as she tries to revive the dead horse of ~300.
        And all the while…….

        15 X 2 X 5 x 100 X 2 GUN DEATHS OCCUR EVERY YEAR IN AMERICA
        STOP IGNORING AND DENYING THAT
        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

  • ibcamn

    I’m sure i can say the same things we all are right now BUT!,did any one think like a liberal lately?I think i see the BACK DOOR on this(ha ha funny)Obama knows we wont under any circumstances give him our guns,or if the ban passes go into or local law enforcement and pay the fine(tax)reg. to keep them and all that and wont tell him of our guns that we bought without the ID# bull crap!he knows we will not do that in anyway shape or form,SO,is what i think is he’s going to do is like a virus in a computer,back door!lets say you and your wife are out drinking and argue and the cops show up,next thing there in your house and their hauling out your illegal weapons and charging you with life in prison(which his friends own)on gun running or gun charges!now he has your gun legally and has you!now you wifey poo goes on food stamps,welfare because she used up all your money on court and lawyers and now Obama has her too!just what he wants!that’s what he wanted all along-those three things(you-her-guns-well of course your money)[footnote];Obama wanted to pass a law so police were able to take your guns away if you got a speeding ticket!THIS IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF WHY OBAMA WANTS GUN CONTROL!…and as always people,read your history!

  • http://www.facebook.com/mark.burchett.33 Mark Burchett

    Here are a couple USSC rulings that state, essentially, that civilian use of military style weaponry is PROTECTED and use of deadly force against a person, even “enforcement agents” that is trying to deprive you of your rights, is allowed.

    “(a post from Gem State Armory LLC)
    TWO SUPREME COURT DECISIONS THE ANTI-GUNNERS DON’T WANT YOU TO SEE

    Carl F. Worden

    January 15, 2013

    There are two Supreme Court rulings that directly relate to the current anti-Assault Weapon issue everyone needs to be reminded of.

    The first is United States v. Miller 1939. Miller possessed a sawed-off shotgun banned under the National Firearms Act. He argued that he had a right to bear the weapon under the Second Amendment, but the Supreme Court ruled against him. Why? At the time, sawed-off shotguns were not being used in a military application, and the Supremes ruled that since it didn’t, it was not protected. Even though Miller lost that argument, the Miller case set the precedent that protected firearms have a military, and thus a legitimate and protected Militia use. The military now uses shotguns regularly, but not very short, sawed-off shotguns, but an AR-15/AK-47 type weapon is currently in use by the military, therefore it is a protected weapon for the Unorganized Militia, which includes just about every American citizen now that both age and sex discrimination are illegal. (The original Militia included men of age 17-45) Therefore any firearm that is applicable to military use is clearly protected under Article II, and that includes all those nasty-looking semi-automatic black rifles, including full 30 round magazines.

    The second important case is that of John Bad Elk v. United States from 1900. In that case, an attempt was made to arrest Mr. Bad Elk without probable cause, and Mr. Bad Elk killed a policeman who was attempting the false arrest. Bad Elk had been found guilty and sentenced to death. However, the Supreme Court ruled that Bad Elk had the right to use any force, including lethal force, to prevent his false arrest, even if the policeman was only trying to arrest him and not kill him. Basically, the Supremes of the day ruled that as a citizen, you have the right to defend against your civil rights being violated using ANY force necessary to prevent the violation, even if the offending party isn’t trying to kill you.

    Both of these cases are standing law to this day.

    The Miller decision clearly includes AR-15/AK-47 type weapons as having a military application. The Bad Elk decision means that if the government tries to confiscate your AR-15/AK-47, or arrest you for having one, you can kill the offenders on the spot, even if they are not trying to kill you.

    I didn’t make these decisions; the United States Supreme Court did.

    Carl F. Worden”

    Thank you.
    Mark D. Burchett, Sr.
    American Patriot and Constitutionalist

    • Vicki

      The liberal lawyers will tell you that the AR-15 doesn’t count as a military weapon because it is semi-auto and not select-fire or full auto.

      Remember the miller decision was that:
      “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a ‘shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length’ at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.”
      http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/bills/blusvmiller.htm

  • Don

    Read the book “Dial 911 and Die” written by atty. Richard W. Stevens. The courts have repeatedly upheld that the police and the government are not required to protect you from criminals. The police do not even have to respond to your 911 call. You cannot recover damages from the police or the government for not responding to your 911 plea for help. Think about this: The same government that wants to take away your gun rights, is under no duty to protect you from criminals, and the courts have upheld that you are ultimately responsible for your own safety and protection. The police are reactive. You have been brainwashed into thinking that 911 is your savior from criminals. Do you want to bet your life on an overstretched and understaffed police department that arrives on the scene of a crime-in-progress less than 5% of the time?

  • Mr Diesel

    Andrew Kehoe didn’t use a gun either and he murdered the most children en mass at a school ever. (US)

  • Joe Murphy

    The only problem I see with requiring a gun training class in order to own or carry guns is that anti-gun politicians can use it to “ban” guns. All they have to do is to make the registration or fees for the class so high that the average person can not afford to comply. That is what Washington DC did – read “Emily got her gun” http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/feb/8/miller-emily-got-her-gun/

    • Vicki

      How can that be? Liberals tell us all the time that they are all about protecting the poor.

  • anonymous

    the second amendment, in order to resist tyranny requires the right for every citizen to use ALL the terrible implements of the soldier.that is why there is “shall not be infringed” included in it.Every weapon available to the government are the right of the citizen.
    any suggestion of anything other than that is by someone who has something to gain by oppressing someone else or a complete idiot.

    • mark

      So, anonymous, this includes nuclear weapons, B-52 Bombers, M-1 tanks, napalm,Bradley Fighting Vehicles, chemical and biological weapons, any weapon that the U.S military has in its arsenal? Wow. And you call anyone who disagres with this – an idiot or someone who has something to gain by oppressing someone else. Double Wow.

      • Adolf Schmidt

        Yep! That’s right all of them!

      • Bruce L Redd

        Mark, you’re catching on quick. All those ARMS, get it ARMS, can be used against you. So yes you have the right to keep and bear all arms. Really scary! Begin a citizen of the United States of America is a and requires tremendous responsibility. If you back down from that responsibility you are setting yourself up to be a slave. Do you want to be a slave? Do you want your children to be slaves? If not fight for your right to keep and bear arms. if you want to be a secure slave, then proudly proclaim that fact.

      • eddie47d

        Not really Adolph and I wouldn’t want you or anyone else to have access to biological weapons. I don’t even want our government to have them or even nukes for that matter. It is hard to tell another nation they can’t have nukes when we have an over abundance of them.

      • rvncibeib1sgret

        Whatever is necessary. You don’t pull out too much. Just enough to get the job done.

    • eddie47d

      Anonymous; Some farmers have stacks of ammonia nitrate in their barns but I doubt if everyone should have any at all. The same with guns and yes they can be controlled as a necessary benefit for a free society. Few people want to see anyone carrying a loaded AR-15 on the street for that is infringing on the rights of others to feel safe also. To feel safe you really don’t need any weapon at all but for those who do feel the need then get a CCW permit.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “Few people want to see anyone carrying a loaded AR-15 on the street for that is infringing on the rights of others to feel safe also. To feel safe you really don’t need any weapon at all….”

        Eddie stumbles over a significant truth. He claims that his right to “Feel” safe doesn’t need any weapon at all and he is correct. It is a feeling so it is totally under eddie’s control. No law can ever be passed that can FORCE eddie to feel safe if he doesn’t want to.

        Now the problem with his first sentence is that he claims that his right to feel safe is infringed on by someone else near by carrying a loaded AR-15. Eddie is the ONLY one who can choose to feel safe or not so his right to feel safe CAN NOT be infringed by anyone other then eddie himself. NO ONE ELSE can possibly make eddie feel safe if he chooses not to feel safe.

        Thus you see eddie is in full control and there is no way someone else can infringe on his natural right to feel safe. Or not.

        This also means that any law intended to make eddie feel safe will ALWAYS fail because (as I already pointed out) you can not create a law that can force eddie to feel.

    • mark

      Bruce, tremendous responsibility, you mean just going out to buy a gun? Tens of thousands do that everydaly, including criminals. Also, according to your logic, you yourself already are a slave. Your government holds nuclear weapons but you don’t . They’ve outgunned you, so you are no longer free. Whoever has the most deadly force is a free man, whoever has less, is a slave. So you’re a slave, Bruce. Obama has you overwhelmingly outgunned.

      • Vicki

        Mark begins to see the light. He has been enslaved for much longer than he might have realized.

  • Bert Cundle Sr.

    Self Defense is a CIVIL RIGHT! ( FOR “EVERYONE” THAT IS “CIVIL”! ) I personly… feel that If I had a Gun… I’d be in big trouble SOON! ( I must believe that a Gun isn’t for me!.)
    But I Respect the RIGHTS of others! The Rightfull use of a Gun … is a Good thing! So… One Lead ball in a Musket or a 20 round 50 Cal. Have their place! in Right Time! Right Reason should never be denied!

  • mark

    It is especially telling that in the settlement of the West when cowboys, pioneers, and settlers required firearms to protect themselves from armed Indians, outlaws, gunfiighters, plus rattlesnakes, mountain lions, and Grizzly bears that so many Western towns demanded and enforced the handing in of all guns before one could enter their towns. Those who refused were often jailed and in some cases shot by legendary peace officers throughout the region. So much for that uninfringed Constitutional right. Of course, Rolley is absolutely correct, the most outspoken white adocates of gun rights always insisted at the same time in barring gun ownership to black citizens in numerous Southern, border, and Western states and codified these proscriptions in state and local law.

    But this backs up the long-held historical truth in that in America, Constitution rights only really apply to majority white citizens – just ask interred Japanese-Americans during World War II, the blacks denied the franchise and access to equal education and public facilities during 90 yrs of Jim Crow, or the Native Americans whose signed and documented treaties were violated again and again by greedy white settlers, timber and mining companies. The hypocrisy in America has always been overwhelming.

    • LESNC

      All like of the things like Jim Crow laws and internment of Japanese were done by Democrats.

      • mark

        Correction: Jim Crow laws were overwhelmingly supported by Conservative Democrats from the South. The Democratic Party has a ferocious Conservative wing in those days just as the Republican Party had a strong Liberal wing. The ideology of these advocates was far more important than their party label. Southern Conservative Democrats were rabid advocates of small governmnet, opposed all taxpayer-funded social programs, and all race-mixing. Southern Conservative Democrats also believed fiercely in the 2nd Amendment, anti-communism, capital punishment, evangelical Christianity, and a strong U.S. miitary. These folks all began leaving the party thanks to LBJ’s passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act. They joined the increasingly Conservative Republican Party in huge numbers in the 1970s nad 1980s.

        On the issue of Japanese-American internement while FDR, a Liberal Democrat, proposed and enacted it, this policy had broad support from virtually all Republicans and especially Conservatives from both parties particularly Southern Conservative Democrats. Only a couple of Liberals from both parties opposed it. But in the polling at the time, the support for internment among the American people regardless of party or ideology, was in the mid-90% range. This was an enormously popular, and of course racist, policy that had collossal support from virtually all Americans across the poltical and ideological spectrum – including many African-Americans!

      • rvncibeib1sgret

        I suppose those so-called dixiecrats were instrumental in engaging in thermo-nuclear war on japan?

    • CZ52

      ” that so many Western towns demanded and enforced the handing in of all guns before one could enter their towns.”

      From what i have read that law only applied to strangers entering the town. The townspeople and local ranchers/farmers etc were allowed to have their firearms.

      When the Dalton gang tried to rob the banks of Coffeeville Kansas the local townspeople shot them to pieces with their privately owned firearms that they had in their posession. There was one survivor, Emmitt Dalton, and he had multiple wounds. When the James-Younger gang raided Northfield Minn. They were shot to pieces by the local townspeople using their privately owned firearms which they had in their posession.

  • Dr Richard Wright Hogeland

    This is a letter I wrote to Harvard on the same subject-

    Dear Harvard Magazine,

    :Guns

    A first step in reducing the violent use of guns –

    is to rid yourself of the notion – that such behavior is not carried in the genes –

    A human Beings disposition is carried in the genes

    Go to any hospital – go to the nursery – observe the new born babies – you will observe – - some babies disposition is placid – some defiant and aggressive – etc- now the environment kicks in – but without – aggressive genes – probably no type of environment will cause the human being to commit intended violent acts – most of us learn through our environment to control our aggressive nature – the family – the church – morality and ethics – friends – schools – the street – sports – the work place

    Second factor – is to call a spade a spade – be honest about the cause of killing or being killed – what weapons are used – according to the FBI the most favorite weapon is a baseball bat – knives – stumping – strangling – automobiles – accidence, especially in the home- etc-

    Third be honest about who actually does the killing – isolate the actual individuals and their background – by race – by color – by financial circumstances – by education -

    Are the killings at random

    or between family members – i.e. wife and husband – girlfriends and boyfriends

    Are we honest about mental health problems – in my day we usually knew who was and who was not mentally OK -

    Now to do this – all this is under the concepts of inequality – prejudices – being labeled with biases – being unfair -etc – mental illness is hushed up –

    Leadership – what kind of sitting President – sworn into office just hours ago to uphold the Constitution – can be so arrogant to kick dirt in the face of so many good citizen . divide the country – over one of the pillors of granite in our firmament the 2nd amendment in the Bill of Rights – and further to add fuel to the fire say he will attempt to do it indirectly by excutive order or through a gun treaty with the UN?

    The thing I know is that “guns” don’t kill! People kill – As for the owners of 350,000,000 guns I would put my money on it – that 99.99999% are caring and responsible individuals – and the % of irresponsible individuals is a negligible % indeed -

    The same thing occurs going through custom – 99.99999 % of the individuals going through customs are the good guys – wearing “white hats” easily determined/ easily discovered ! -

    but for the same reasons re guns – everyone is painted with the same brush- as potential terrorists – lets us be prejudicial – instead of labeling all of the people potential wrong doers

    We should learn to live with the fact – the USA is a gun culture – the guns are protected – first of all – by natural law and rights – since guns were invented — incorporated into the Bill of Rights – Supreme Court stated in the Heller Case – no new right was created – it can not be gotten around or abolished even by amendment let alone by executive orders – or by treaties with the UN -

    All guns are kept for self defense – defense of the state and nation – entertainment – however, one of the prime reason – is to maintain our freedom from a despotic government – so if the National government would stop interfering in the individuals freedom and liberty – perhaps -it just might cause the individual to relax more about keeping and bearing arms

    As to the type of weapons – under natural law and natural rights and the 2nd amendment – the only limitation on the types of weapons – can only be a type that is not used for self defense – for hunting and entertainment and for military use – and if the anti-gun lobby continues too push for gun controls – of certain types of weapons – the Supreme Court – will be forced to hold -( they have set the precedent for doing so )- when the Court allowed sawed-off shot guns to be restricted – where it said – the sawed-off shot gun was not the type of weapon used in hunting or the military! Ergo – as long as the gun can be used for hunting – self defense and the military – it will be allowed-

    A further consideration – as bad as the twin towers disaster and the useless killing of innocent children – let us for heaven sake stop being cry babies – we yell like banshees in the night!

    I don’t hear the same hue and cry when our sons and daughters are killed in useless wars – where is the anti-war lobby – I don’t hear any cry whatsoever – when innocent woman and children are killed by our military personnel and our drones in far off venues where we are intruders in their internal Affairs!

    Some violence is unfortunate and we should, of course, attempt to mitigate it – but not by giving up our Freedom and Liberty

    During the communist heydays – Some of the English – proclaimed “They would rather be Red than Dead!” We now proclaim “We would rather be safe than Free!” We must be self reliant and take care of ourselves -

    In any free society we will have to experience some horror – but Freedom and Liberty should never be traded for any reason! As Ben Franklin said, ” If you trade Freedom for Security – you deserve neither Freedom or Security!”

    An effective defence of liberty must …of necessity be inflexible – dogmatic and doctrinaire and must not make concessions to consierations of expediency. The quest for freedom can be successful only if it is considered a GENERAL PRINCIPLE OF POLITICAL MORALITY – the application of which in the concrete case does not need a justification. Liberty is not just one value among others -a maxim of morality on a par with all other maxims, BUT IS THE SOURCE OF – AND A NECESSARY CONDITION FOR -ALL NDIVIDUAL VALUES!

    Liberty is a State/Nations highest good!

    “Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom -it is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves!”

    Restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms – is but “a red herring” our Freedom and Liberty is the real and essential issue!

    To be a Free people you must have courage (One of the 9 Virtues)- Freedom does not come easily- or cheaply – Freedom comes at a big price –

    In your deliberations now and in the future you should suggest that Harvard University should teach less subjects and concentrate on the basics – (Quality over Quantity i.e. the 9 Virtues and the 7 deadly sins – they cover a large area of all human endeavor and actions – they should be taught in the home – by just reading the Fables – but the Virtues are not taught – so the University must be the instructor – American History should be taught in depth i.e. a reading of the debates of the Anti-federalists (Federalists) and the Federalists(the Nationalist -) and the latter’s great concern for power, empire building – glory – wealth and fortune over Freedom and Liberty

    By all means teach Morals and Ethics

    To put it bluntly we do not have just a problem of Guns – that is a “nothing problem” compared to the greater problem – we are destroying the magnificent opportunity we had to be great nation in everyway – by destroying the common denominator Freedom and Liberty – the hightest moral maxim – - without it the individual can not have a fulfilling existence -(the Declaration of Independence can not be obtained )- without it happiness – financial success – diversity , innovation – the Rule of Lw can not be sustained –

    I predict with out immediate drastic change in our behavior – the USA as we now know it will implode – and break up in numerous parts

    We are at the cross roads – our choices are either a very limited central government or no government – or a breakup into areas with areas that are free and areas that are not free. The beauty of the latter is once one area is Free and that Freedom is secured – the other area must become Free – in order to survive!

    History has proved time after time – where Freedom and Liberty exist – nothing is impossible – and in the final analysis Freed and Liberty and truth will prevail -

    Dr Richard Wright Hogeland

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Doctor (JD) Hogeland—–did Harvard magazine publish this letter?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        I doubt it. Keep in mind, Harvard has a reputation to protect…

  • John Adams

    Thank you. Sam Rolley, for posting the first and only “fair and balanced” article that I’ve seen on this site. Unfortunately, “there are none so blind as those who WILL not see …”, and so we will always have the “Vicki and the Brain” show, where shouting your viewpoint becomes the dominant form of discourse, rather than seeking to take the most important facts from each viewpoint and mold a policy (from which constitutionally-consistent laws can be developed) that respects the rights of gun owners and would-be gun owners while doing their best to protect all of us from the wackos (drug-influenced or otherwise) and criminals, none of whom have any right to keep or bear weapons of any type – let alone guns!

    And thank you, GALT, for the deeply academic reference points you have provided. If more people would take the time to digest these difficult pieces we could dispense with the shouting, the hyperbole, and the partisan mantras that pass for argument in today’s world.

    • Vicki

      John Adams writes:
      “and so we will always have the “Vicki and the Brain” show, where shouting your viewpoint becomes the dominant form of discourse,”

      Here let me state the facts without the “shouting” for you.

      ~300 million Americans did not shoot anyone.
      (Provable fact. Get us population from google. Subtract us population who has shot someone from the FBI. Do math.)

      Stop punishing the innocent for the acts of a (very) few.

      Now the reason for the all caps is not to “shout” but to emphasize the point that we are WAY PAST TIRED of being PUNISHED for the acts of less than 0.01% of us.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      John, I’m sorry that you have chosen to see equivalency between Vicki’s comments and mine in what you refer to as the “Vicki and the Brain Show”. Perhaps one who attempts to sit up on a high horse of “intellectualism” does not read the SHOUTS because they are “beneath him”?

      My shouts came only because there was a need to counter Vicki’s blatant propagandizing, and the continuation of the “show” is due to Vicki’s stubbornness in pursuing her agenda. I too appreciate GALT’s contributions, but the vast majority of the people visiting PLD have little ability to understand what he says, and more importantly, most don’t want to even try. They are motivated reasoners that suffer from extreme cognitive dissonance-confirmation bias.

      I would appreciate it if you would look a bit more closely at what I say. I do not sit still when attacked, and that produces much “smoke” sometimes, but you might just find that we believe the same things if you deigned to look more closely at my comments.

      If you haven’t noticed, this site is a raging inferno of “shouting, hyperbole, and partisan mantras that pass for argument”. Also misinformation, ignorance, and mindlessness. Some of us are not afraid to wade in and try to deal with that.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        And Vicki demonstrates her stubbornness by once again giving us some ~300 horsepucky.. Despite John Adam’s plea, she continues her mindlessness. Will John see that Vicki is using him? She is very good at that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/henry.baker.71 Henry Baker

    This garbage is nothing more than an anti-NRA rant disguised as a pro-gun piece. If there were no NRA, there’d be NO Second Amendment today.

    Bob Livingston is a liar, a fool and a stealth shill for the gun haters, whose real goals were never any different in the past than they are today — the repeal of the Second Amendment, the total elimination of private firearms ownership in America and the complete confiscation of EVERY gun owned and/or possessed by American citizens.

    This entire website is nothing more than a communist front.

    • rvncibeib1sgret

      Henry, Henry,……Hank! Take a deep breath, think about what you just posted and try to read the article again. Is it possible that you have misread the article? Sam Rolley is the author here and GOA (Gun Owners of America) are more vocal on the second amendment than the NRA. NRA is primarily a sport and skeet organization. GOA is a
      lot more into the second amendment. NRA role has nothing to do with the second amendment except to hunt and plink! Expand your research on it rather than getting overly emotional..

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Henry,

      Shhh! We are trying to keep that a secret.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • Right Brain Thinker

        I don’t know, Bob. Henry may be on to something with “This entire website is nothing more than a communist front”. A lot of the folks posting on PLD sure seem as if they want to destroy the country. And as much or more than the commies ever wanted to when there were still some around—-it seems like we are in more danger today from the far right than we ever were from the far left (in spite of what Joe McCarthy said). Just look at Henry for proof of that.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        I see Henry is wearing his tin-foil hat. Henry, it’s believed that if you wrap your head with tin-foil, the FBI can’t read your thoughts. Also, tin-foil hats can protect you from Alien-abduction…

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Hey, don’t knock tin-foil hats—I wore one down to the Mall when Colbert and Stewart had their “Restore Sanity” rally. Had teabags dangling from the rim and signs on the hat that said “They can’t make me think”. And the FBI left me alone and no aliens abducted me, so it works. Got my picture taken by a bunch of folks, too—-I guess they wanted to make their own.

      • Vicki

        Best not be knocking tinfoil hats. That crowd might just be on to something.
        http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/letters-future-military-technologies/4.html#top

    • Bill

      Off your meds again, Henry

    • Robert Marshner

      Henry thats wrong we have HR11654 The Dick Act it forbids gun control I posted part of the act below but please go and look it up and read it

  • Rainey Grimes

    I think we need to start over. Get rid of president and every member of congress and the judicial branch, and abolish all political parties. Then start from scratch because the system we’re in cannot be fixed.

    • menehuni509

      Hear, hear!

    • Steve

      But first , you would have to get rid of the people who put these goons in office.
      They will just keep electing them.

      • Truthbug

        It certainly is a real problem. When everyone assumes themselves to be the source of wisdom instead of seeking the true source they can go far astray from supporting those who would promote desirable conditions.

      • eddie47d

        There is your Hitler theory at work IBCAMN as Steve has noted! “WE MUST GET RID OF THEM”.

    • KenPoland

      And you have a system in mind to replace it with? You must have the wisdom of Solomon. But, maybe you should also recognise that Solomon’s wisdom let him get himself entangled in relationships and partnerships that cost him and his people tremendous anguish and suffering. You’ll have to be wiser than Solomon to guarantee improvement over what we have. We can possibly improve things a bit at a time, but be careful about throwing everything over and starting from scratch.

      We live in a real world and finite human beings are the source of our leadership pool. We will never attain perfection in our individual lives or the life of our nation. Collectively though we can strive to improve.

    • Chester

      Mr; Grimes, are you volunteering to be the dictator who tells the rest of us what is good for us and what isn’t? With what you are proposing, most assuredly that is where we will wind up. It may not be ONE man, but you can bet the farm it will be a very small group of men who take the leadership, until someone decides they don’t like the way things are going and kills off the leaders, or tries to. Don’t think so, just take a good hard look at Egypt, Iraq, and several other countries in northern Africa and Asia to see what happens when you toss the government you don’t like totally out the door.

    • Proteus1946

      This method was tried at least twice: 1. 1789 France and 2. 1917 Russia. Probably others I can’t think of right off the top of my head.

      How did your suggestion work out for the French and Russians?

      Same question applies to another on this thread who wants to get rid of the folks that put the government in power – Is his name Robespierre?

  • Warrior

    Stop with the “militia” nonsense and answer this basic question. Do all human beings (save for the unborn) have the “right” to protect “themselves”? Absofrigginlutely! It is “natural law”!

    • Vicki

      Why do you specifically not include the unborn in the group?

      • Proteus1946

        It really has nothing to do with ‘Rights’; it is physically impossible.
        1. There is no handgun manufactured that a 4 or 5 month fetus can hold and operate. I wouldn’t suggest shoving any rifle up your uterus so your fetus can ‘defend him/herself’.

        2. There isn’t enough room in the womb to even move a pistol into a shooting position.

        3. If your fetus could overcome those obstacles, then he/she would have to shoot through both the uterine wall and mom’s abdominal wall to hit the threat, probably killing not only mom, but him/herself as well.

        4. Its really dark in the womb, and the fetus cannot see out to identify a threat or gain a target.

        Congratulations, you win the prize for asking the ‘dumbest question of the day’.

      • Vicki

        Proteus1946 says:
        “It really has nothing to do with ‘Rights’; it is physically impossible.
        1. There is no handgun manufactured that a 4 or 5 month fetus can hold and operate. I wouldn’t suggest shoving any rifle up your uterus so your fetus can ‘defend him/herself’. ”

        Warrior didn’t mention tools in his comment.

  • robert

    if the government is so worried about guns, then i say its because they know people are getting tired of there socialist views. that the government should not and cannot be trusted. i have had family in every war this country has ever had and believe strongly in the constitution. any one who tries to take away or change the constitution or its meaning, is a traitor to the people.

    • KenPoland

      Then you don’t believe any of the 27 amendments to the constitution should have been allowed, even the 1st ten. Or is it that you think only those enforcements or laxities concerning constitutional laws that you presently agree with are valid and you can ignore any others? You don’t bother to study all the nuances in the enforcements or changes that have occured in the regulations enacted to support the constitution. Every article and amendment in and to the constitution affects another article or amendment. Those regulations have changed from Administration to Administration and from changes in popular cultures of given periods. Transportation and communication technologies, as well as scientific discoveries have changed the environment that we live in. Rules and regulations that were pertinate to the times in 1790 may not be that relevant today. Today, we are faced with situations that were beyond anyone’s imagination when the constitution was drafted and ratified.

      I think the author of this article has presented a good and sensible account of where we are and maybe some thinkgs we need to consider when trying to find solutions to the social problems of our times. And guns are certainly a factor in the social atmosphere of today.

      • Truthbug

        Basic truths don’t change. Our recognition of them needs to improve and those early amendments are evidence we have done so. If we fail to fully understand those truths, at least let us favor freedom over tyranny.

      • eddie47d

        Great combination and rational thinking Sam Rolley and only if we could have more of that. Thanks for speaking up Ken Pollard and this talk of being a traitor (robert) because most citizens don’t want to see anyone walking around with an AR-15 at the local mall is beyond pale.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “Thanks for speaking up Ken Pollard and this talk of being a traitor (robert) because most citizens don’t want to see anyone walking around with an AR-15 at the local mall is beyond pale.”

        Are you familiar with the concept “Tyranny of the Majority”?

    • ibcamn

      Yes Rob,Obama is scared to death of us(with guns)he can’t round up dissatants to his tyranny if we have guns,can’t fill up his camps(fema centers),it will take longer(never)than he has!when people push back it makes his new world order harder to achieve!why do you think other socialistic(mao-che-stalin-lenan-hitler) leaders had to kill millions of their own people,they pushed back and found it easier to just kill them,that’s why Obama has his law that he can take you away and keep you indefinatly with no reason!that’s to do the same thing as those others![they had similar laws they made up to fit their agenda] just….like…..Obama…………..

    • ibcamn

      REMEMBER,it’s the people Obama and his henchmen are worried about,and what the people will do with our firearms,as the constitution says we are ALLOWED to do,FIGHT THE GOVERNMENT with our firearms!are we not?

  • GALT
  • GALT
  • Vicki

    Every gun control law that infringes on the rights of the ~300 MILLION Americans who DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE is prima facie unconstitutional.

    Sam Rolly writes in the OP
    “Conservatives often put all the emphasis of the Amendment on the latter phrasing, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The same holds true for liberals reading the Amendment, salivating over, “A well regulated…””

    The meaning of the 2nd Amendment is quite clear.
    http://constitution.org/2ll/schol/2amd_grammar.htm

    The Conservatives are not guilty of failing to take the words as a whole. The English grammar is quite common and clear.

    “A well regulated….” Is one but not only reason for
    “The right of THE PEOPLE to keep (possess) and bear (carry) arms
    shall NOT be infringed.”

    ~300 MILLION Americans DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

    STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a few.

    STOP IT
    STOP IT NOW

    • Right Brain Thinker

      THERE ARE ~30,000 GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S. .
      NEARLY 2/3 OF THEM ARE SUICIDES

      THERE ARE ~11,000 GUN HOMICIDES EACH YEAR IN THE U.S.

      THERE ARE ~600 ACCIDENTAL GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S.
      MANY IF NOT MOST OF THEM ARE CHILDREN

      THERE ARE ~200,000 GUN-RELATED INJURIES A YEAR IN THE U.S.

      STOP TRYING TO DENY THERE’S A PROBLEM
      STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT GUNS ARE A FACTOR
      STOP TRYING TO SAY COMMON SENSE REGULATION MEANS GUN CONFISCATION

      STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH ~300 AMERICANS
      STOP IT
      STOP IT NOW

      • http://exodus-consulting.com Thomas

        “STOP TRYING TO SAY COMMON SENSE REGULATION MEANS GUN CONFISCATION”

        Read the text of the Feinstein bill and explain to us (without the caps lock key) how that bill is “common sense regulation”.

        We already have 22,000 gun laws in this country, none of which prevented Sandy Hook. One more will be a drop in the ocean in this regard, serving no purpose other than rendering 10′s of millions of gun-owning Americans “criminals” at the stroke of Obama’s pen. Many will not give them up. This will not end well.

        Liberals don’t hate guns. They just hate privately-owned guns. They LOVE guns in the hands of a coercive police state, so they can force their will on those who disagree with them. We would ask the opinions of those 56 million victims of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, et al, who died at the hands of their own governments in the 20th century, but we can’t because they were all murdered. But first they were disarmed.

        Dianne Feinstein wants to take your guns because she and her ilk want to do OTHER things to you that they couldn’t do if you kept your guns. It’s. Really. That. Simple.

      • http://www.sonsoflibertymontana.com Rich

        Prove your stats.

      • menehuni509

        The problem with your thinking, Brain, is that you don’t consider the fact that any laws passed to control guns will only be followed by those who abide by the law. Criminals don’t follow the law, that’s why they’re called “criminals”. You would deny law-abiding citizens the ability to defend themselves from those who don’t follow the law, thus raising the death toll of those who are killed by guns. Personally, I want to have the ability to defend myself, my children, and my grandchildren from those who seek to harm us. That being said, there’s nothing wrong with RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. Those who own guns should know how to use them properly and keep them in proper working order. Children should not have access to guns until they know how to use them properly.

        On the other hand, there have been some incidents in the not-too-distant past, where children have used guns to defend themselves (and others in the house) from intruders who were bent on harming them. While that is a grave responsibility to rest on those young shoulders, I applaud both the children and the parents of those children. The children did what they needed to do to protect themselves. The parents of those children were instrumental in teaching the children how and when to use those guns properly. Those parents knew that the children they left in charge were responsible enough to know when to use those guns. That comes from knowing their children well enough to know if they were ready for the responsibility. Not all children are, just as not all adults are.

      • David

        according to the F.B.I.’s statistics, law abiding citizens use firearms over 2,000,000 times per year (that are reported to police). There are in excess of 280,000,000 firearms owned by U.S. citizens. So, you would have us think it logical that because fewer than 0.01% of all firearms in the U.S. are involved in homicides, suicides and negligent discharges that “something needs to be done about them”?

        Poppy cock and nonsense. There are many more deaths each year caused by doctors prescribing the wrong drugs and traffic crashes, yet you do not seem to want to “do something” about them. I can’t help but wonder why? The negligent discharges have been drastically reduced in the last 20 years due to an increase in training.

        While they may be reported as “accidental” there are in reality not any accidents that happen where human beings are involved, only negligence. The same is true for traffic crashes (we stopped calling them “accidents” unless a tree falls on a vehicle, etc. as no human action was involved).

        Homicide, war and death have always been part of the human condition and even if it were possible (which it isn’t) to destroy every single firearm on the face of the planet, it would not stop homicide, war or death due to them. The facts speak for themselves, guns are used for good far more than evil in this country.

      • Bill

        Right brain thinker is becoming like a child in the school yard. He should seek some mental health. But stay away from all of those mental drugs that cause people to shoot each other

      • Truthbug

        Many grievous atrocities have been done under the label of “common sense regulation”. Beware of the motives of those who use these words in combination with large doses of manufactured emotionalism.

      • Hedgehog

        Right Brain Thinker; your nom de guerre proudly proclaims that you think only with the right half of your brain. If this is true, then the left half of your brain is not engaged in these discussions at all. What is the problem? Does the left half of your brain have no opinion? Is the left half of your brain being forced into silence by the right half? Is the left half of your brain (whisper it) retarded? In any event it would be more honest of you to call yourself Lame Brain Thinker. Perhaps you consider yourself so superior to everyone else that you only need to use half your brain when dealing with other people. Enlighten us O(bama) elitist one. We await you pontifications with bated breath

      • ibcamn

        remember mr. Thinker,most of those stats overlap each other,using one with another and then another with a differant one,it’s been done a gozillion times,they(liberals)use it all the time!it’s kinda like those cops using the Colorado theater shooting as excuse to but them selves some AR-15′s in Iowa now!OK!doesn’t make sense most the time!(i mean a lie)

      • eddie47d

        Feinstein may be right. Why are those 22,000 gun laws not working? Because they are in a multitude of jurisdictions from city to city and county to county and state to state. That makes them unenforceable because of the inconsistencies and numerous loopholes among those wide spread districts. Interstate trafficking is quite common and hard to track.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        THERE ARE ~30,000 GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S.

        783,936 people in the United States die every year from conventional medicine mistakes.

        NEARLY 2/3 OF THEM ARE SUICIDES

        Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year. Nearly 1/3 are by motor vehicle exhaust suicide.

        THERE ARE ~11,000 GUN HOMICIDES EACH YEAR IN THE U.S.

        About 106,000 die from prescription drugs each year in America, according to Death by Medicine. That also is a conservative number. Some experts estimate it should be more like 200,000 because of underreported cases of adverse drug reactions.

        THERE ARE ~600 ACCIDENTAL GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S.
        MANY IF NOT MOST OF THEM ARE CHILDREN

        800,000 abortions a year are performed in America. All of them are children.

        THERE ARE ~200,000 GUN-RELATED INJURIES A YEAR IN THE U.S.

        Each year 435,000 Americans die from smoking tobacco.
        Each year 111,909 Americans die as a result ofBeing overweight and obesity.
        Each year 85,000 Americans die from alcohol-consumption.
        Each year 75,000 Americans die from Infectious diseases.
        Each year 43,000 Americans die in traffic collisions.
        Each year 20,000 Americans die from sexually transmitted infections.
        Each year 17,000 Americans die from drug abuse.

        STOP TRYING TO IGNORE THE BIGGER PROBLEMS, RBT.
        STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE US THAT GUNS ARE OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM. THEY ARE NOT! GUNS ARE THE LEAST OF OUR PROBLEMS, RBT. INSIGNIFICANT, FACT!
        STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT WE ALREADY HAVE, COMMON SENSE REGULATION, RBT.

        STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH A NON-ISSUE(GUN-VIOLECE)RBT.
        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW, RBT!!!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Rich says, “Prove your stats”

        I say to Rich—-”Show us stats that are different from these and that disprove mine”.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        STOP TRYING TO BRING UP OTHER UNRELATED PROBLEMS, JAY.
        STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE US THAT GUN DEATHS ARE NOT A PROBLEM.
        THEY ARE!

        GUNS ARE, BY DEFINITION, A FACTOR IN GUN DEATHS
        STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT

        STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH OTHER ISSUES.
        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW, JAY!!!

      • Jana

        Sounds like Right Brain Thinker has just become a parrot. He has been asked to show his sources but refuses because he is ashamed of them. I would be ashamed of them too.( I found them.)
        All of the statistics that I have found (even the ones Right Brain used) have been criminals preying on their victims. If these victims had been trained concealed carriers, they would not have become victims.
        I personally do not intend to ever become a victim of some idiot who is too lazy to go out and work for a living, but wants to rob and murder and do mayhem for sport.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Jana, RBT is not interested in providing accurate-facts, much less, sources.. RBT is all about spreading propaganda. Don’t hold your breath waiting on the “school-administrator” to provide sources, much less provide a concise breakdown of his bogus-numbers/statistics. And most of all, RBT hopes and prays that you do not inquire! You see, that’s how the education system works…just feed the little-mushrooms pure bs, and punish any who dare ask critical-questions. RBT, has 30 years of experience in discouraging critical-thinking…maybe if he sticks around long enough, we can help him break the habit. Who knows…

      • eddie47d

        Jana of coarse ignores Vickie playing Polly Parrot at least 100 times over the past week. Such hypocricy!

      • eddie47d

        So WTS thinks gun deaths are a non-issue. Either that make you a moron or at least a half wit. If you want to be concerned about deaths in other categories then join a group to erase those problems.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Hedgehog is ignorant of the brain physiology and political psychology that underly my “handle”, and makes what he thinks are “clever” jabs. Some very interesting info about thinking is out there under the title of “Foxes and Hedgehogs” Google Dylan Evans and “Which one are you?” for a very interesting article. Hedgehog is aptly named, as he will see if he reads the article. That will be a good place for him to educate himself so that he can stop looking ignorant with posts like this one.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        JAY is being a nasty, slimy, and delusional little worm here. Too bad it’s bedtime or I would impale him on the hook of logic and use his foolishness as bait for the truth. Blather on, JAY, Jana will surely believe every last word—not because any of it is true but because she WANTS to. Our old buddy confirmation bias lives in Jana’s head, just as you often PRETEND it lives in yours. LOL (And who knows?—-The Shadow Knows)

        “Jana, RBT is not interested in providing accurate-facts, much less, sources.. RBT is all about spreading propaganda. Don’t hold your breath waiting on the “school-administrator” to provide sources, much less provide a concise breakdown of his bogus-numbers/statistics. And most of all, RBT hopes and prays that you do not inquire! You see, that’s how the education system works…just feed the little-mushrooms pure bs, and punish any who dare ask critical-questions. RBT, has 30 years of experience in discouraging critical-thinking…maybe if he sticks around long enough, we can help him break the habit. Who knows”

      • Jana

        eddie,
        If you will go back you will see that Right Brain truly is parroting Vicki. I do think you are smart enough to look it up for yourself, and remember what you looked up.

      • Jana

        Right Brain,
        Is it true that you were a teacher?

      • Vicki

        Don’t worry overmuch about the exact accuracy of RBT’s statistics. He could be off by a factor of 10 and still not touch the fact that

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        ~30,000 deaths figure that RBT offered is ~0.01 percent of the population.

        Or in other terms, RBT and the anti gun crowd want to punish ~99.9% of the population for the acts of a very few. That is why we say that

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a few

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Isn’t that sweet? Jana is staying up late and ignoring her “beauty rest” just so she can flirt with me (but mostly with irrationality). I’m flattered.

        Jana asks, “Is it true that you were a teacher?” Yes Jana—for several years before I got into school administration. And a good one, I’m proud to say—-I got one “Teacher of the Year” award—nice dinner, a certificate, and my picture in the paper (the dinner was the best part). Actually I still am a “teacher”—that old “Once a teacher, always a teacher” thing IS true, and visiting PLD certainly does make me want to “teach” folks like you.

        Vicki arrives at “Shills-n-Trolls-r-Us” bright and early and shows us that she is still reeling from her beating and grasping at straws to keep from falling down. She thinks that “fine-tuning” her ~300 AMERICANS “numbers” will somehow make them more meaningful.

        STOP TRYING TO DENY THERE’S A PROBLEM
        STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT GUNS ARE A FACTOR
        STOP TRYING TO SAY COMMON SENSE REGULATION MEANS GUN CONFISCATION

        STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH ~300 AMERICANS
        (and any little “adjustments” you make with your meaningless numbers)
        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • Jana

        Right brain non,
        Thank you for verifying that you were a teacher.
        As you stated, “Jana asks, “Is it true that you were a teacher?” Yes Jana—for several years before I got into school administration. And a good one, I’m proud to say—-I got one “Teacher of the Year” award—nice dinner, a certificate, and my picture in the paper (the dinner was the best part). Actually I still am a “teacher”—that old “Once a teacher, always a teacher” thing IS true, and visiting PLD certainly does make me want to “teach” folks like you.”____________

        You sure are full of yourself. No wonder our Public School System is in trouble with Socialist teachers like YOU. Your PRETEND Teacher of the Year Award just confirms your idiocy and your self esteemed superiority, when in actuality, you are quite mediocre!

        That Teacher of the Year Award means just as much as Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize that he supposedly won for becoming the first black President of the United States.
        NOT A BIG DEAL!

      • Vicki

        Right Brain Thinker doesn’t and says:
        “Vicki arrives at “Shills-n-Trolls-r-Us” bright and early and shows us that she is still reeling from her beating and grasping at straws to keep from falling down.”

        Project much?

        - RBT: ” She thinks that “fine-tuning” her ~300 AMERICANS “numbers” will somehow make them more meaningful. ”

        Not more meaningful.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Jana, are you trying to compete with Vicki for my attention? Are you jealous of her and want me for your own? The two of you are going to have to send me pictures to settle this. And if you don’t look exactly like Sarah Palin, you will have no chance with me. (To say nothing of the fact that I’m not attracted to women who are dumber than a brick, which fact you have dsmonstrated with this comment.)

        No wonder our Public School System is in trouble with Socialist teachers like YOU. Your PRETEND Teacher of the Year Award just confirms your idiocy and your self esteemed superiority, when in actuality, you are quite mediocre!

        That Teacher of the Year Award means just as much as Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize that he supposedly won for becoming the first black President of the United States.

      • Don

        Right Brain Tinkerbell says he’s not attracted to women who are dumber than a brick. Frankly, I’d be surprised if you were attracted to women at all.

      • Jana

        Don,
        I was actually thinking the same thing.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        OOOOOH! Looky! Don and Jana are ganging up on me! And casting aspersions on my manhood! (Perfectly understandable,since they can’t beat me in a argument).

        Don and Jana—-a match made in heaven! Their kids will be so dumb that they will need to be taught how to drool.

      • Don

        Exclusive – What The Hell Just Happened? ‘Tyranny By Executive Order’ / By Constitutional Attorney Michael Connelly, J.D.

        http://redflagnews.com/headlines/tyranny-by-executive-order-by-constitutional-attorney-michael-connelly-jd

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Why has this Connelly clip been posted three times now, Don? Why don’t you instead spend the time responding to my comment about the “red lines” attached to the UN Arms Treaty?

        As I said, Don and Jana—-a match made in heaven! Their kids will be so dumb that they will need to be taught how to drool.

      • Don

        Only Rebellion Can Save America
        By: Colonel Lawrence Sellin, Ph.D

        http://www.newyorkdailysun.com/only-rebellion-can-save-america/1490

    • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes

      Keep up the good work Vicki! Brain stinker is having a meltdown!

      • Vicki

        :)

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Hey, Mex

        I know you’re a little slow on the uptake on some things, so let me warn you that Vicki’s little smile is NOT a “happy” smile but rather a forlorn and wistful one. She is saying to herself “I wish that were true, Mex” and “Why did I mess with the bull?” and “How am I going to avoid the horns?”

        Maybe you can help her out, though—-encourage her to sing a different tune—one that has more notes and is not so off-key?

      • Vicki

        RBT should probably not try and become a mentalist.

      • Jana

        Vicki,
        But you do have to admit, RB is mental!

      • Vicki

        RBT does make rather “liberal” use of ad hominem and argument to ridicule.

  • Harold Olsen

    The left claims that gun control is for the purpose of protecting children. That is a load of crap! If protecting children were really what they want to do, then why are they so willing to murder unborn children? They, in truth, do not give a damn about children. What it really is about is curbing our freedoms. Despots like Obama always start with two things in their effort to take control. They limit free speech and disarm the people,

    • eddie47d

      So Harold is the one who yelled fire in a crowded theater! I always suspected something like that. Abortion has nothing to do with “children” but with fetuses so try and use the right termanology. So yes Liberals do care about CHILDREN. I guess we should ask why do so many Conservatives endorse the act of rape as normal. Now New Mexico’s Republican governor has a bill on her desk that will prosecute the woman who is raped. (sounds like what India and a few other countries do). Last year she signed a bill that says a rapist can ask for custody of any child that he produced. Also that the woman has to go to him for child support.(the state won’t stop him from refusing that support though) dejavu! This new bill says the rapist can receive full custody if the woman seeks an abortion and that the woman can be jailed for 3 years for that attempt.

      • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

        eddie teddy 47 ways to be a commie, you and your sidekick rightbrainstinker have made me sick with your lie’s and non fact that I have to take a moment to puke, robots from the commie dream world is what both of you are along with trashy flasy dashy, jeromy oh my have to protect my fellow nazi’s. Get a real brain, get some common sense, learn some real history and come out of your nazi dream world and be human who can live with truth and not turn it into a lie.

  • MexicansaysLibtardsRPukes
  • http://yahoo Glen

    We also need a bigger commitment to Mental Health. Most of these mass killings have been by someone who has mental issues.

    • Vicki

      ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

      STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

      STOP IT
      STOP IT NOW

      • Right Brain Thinker

        THERE ARE ~30,000 GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S. .
        NEARLY 2/3 OF THEM ARE SUICIDES

        THERE ARE ~11,000 GUN HOMICIDES EACH YEAR IN THE U.S.

        THERE ARE ~600 ACCIDENTAL GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S.
        MANY IF NOT MOST OF THEM ARE CHILDREN

        THERE ARE ~200,000 GUN-RELATED INJURIES A YEAR IN THE U.S.

        STOP TRYING TO DENY THERE’S A PROBLEM
        STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT GUNS ARE A FACTOR
        STOP TRYING TO SAY COMMON SENSE REGULATION MEANS GUN CONFISCATION

        STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH ~300 AMERICANS
        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Right Brain Thinker,

        Please provide evidence to support your claims of 30,000 gun deaths, 11,000 gun homicides, 600 accidental shootings and 200,000 gun injuries per year.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • Randy G

        Vicki, your comment are OK But ‘Right Brain Thinker’ has his brain on the wrong end of the spinal cord. How about cars? They kill lots of people, should we get rid of them? No they pick on the drivers there. Why the double standard? Wouldn’t the world be better with less crazy people in it.

      • Truthbug

        RBT desperately needs to gain a better understanding of freedom and liberty. Giving up freedom for the illusion of security is a fatal mistake.

      • FreedomFighter

        This is not about Gun Control, its about control of the American people, this has happened many, many times in history, usually as a dictator or other totalitarian govrnmental system is implemented. The government fears and rightly so, the people dont want to be treated like a collective of ants, enslaved with mandatory healthcare that opens the door to absolute physical control measures, silenced, disarmed, fed psychotropic compounds in the water that pacify, and with them as queens, and kings of a false utopia, very mch a Dystopia. Mankind can come up with a better way to develope a society bound for the stars.

        Here is an old story that is new. We are all American Indians now and invaders from the seas have come to take your home and put you on a …

        Indian Reservation (Cherokee People)
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ6RjP7MlXk

        Change the words Cherokee to American and Japan to China…think about it, we are all American indians now, differance now is we can win.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • Gordon
      • Gordon

        Founding fathers often stated that MILITIA is the average citizen with his weapon willing to fight tyanny. So the liberals are correct, in the truest sense of the word.

      • eddie47d

        Vickie continues to scream out STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT. WELL THEN STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT SCHOOL CHILDREN. Stop the reckless behavior of some gun dealers. Stop the recklessness of some gun owners . Stop the NRA from ignoring the problems they now exacerbate. The NRA was once a respected organization by all Americans and now it is no more than a shill mouthpiece for extremist right wingers who ignore the consequences of gun violence. Stop the NRA from treating these mass killings as just another day at the park. The NRA use to be a champion of gun control and gun ownership and supported sensible laws so neither side felt threatened. Now its nothing but a political agenda for them in maintaining a good standing with the extremists. That way they can keep the faithful hooked on their propaganda and the money can pour in. The bottom line is support the Second Amendment and support reasonable gun control. Anything less is a copout.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dear Bob,

        You say, “Please provide evidence to support your claims of 30,000 gun deaths, 11,000 gun homicides, 600 accidental shootings and 200,000 gun injuries per year”.

        I’m not “claiming” anything, Bob. I’m merely stating one set of stats that I came across, and they agree well with others I have seen—i believe most of these came from the Utah Doctors Study. There are literally mounds of stats out there, many from the FBI, and they look at the PROBLEM of gun deaths from many angles. These stats have been used by numbers of PLD posters in attempts to prove many things. Why are you bothering to question me anyway when you haven’t questioned many of the others who have posted such stats?

        I say they’re as TRUE as any you will find. I ask YOU to provide evidence that they’re NOT. How many gun deaths DO we have? How many are homicides? How many are suicides? How many are accidents? How many involve kids? HOW MANY RESULT FROM SELF-DEFENSE? Tell us. Let’s compare numbers and see what the “evidence” shows.

        While you’re here , Bob, perhaps you could answer a question for me? W.A.R. just wrote a piece for you on taxes and O’Bama and communists—kind of way out stuff that didn’t hang together too well I was googling around and I happened to notice that this article on PLD seemed to be to be an expansion of an article W.A.R. published on the NewsMax website on 7/1/2011—many of the sentences in the PLD piece were lifted word for word from the NewsMax article. My question(s) Does W.A.R. “own” the rights to that 71/2011 article or does NewsMax? Can Wayne just “recycle” it like that? Do you and PLD now “own” the rights to Wayne’s “reuse” of that article? I’m not trying to stir anything up, but I would like to understand the “property rights” and “copyright” implications here, if you would be so kind as to explain them,

        Best wishes
        RBT

        PS to Vicki,

        THERE ARE ~30,000 GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S. .

        STOP TRYING TO DENY THERE’S A PROBLEM
        STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT GUNS ARE A FACTOR
        STOP TRYING TO SAY COMMON SENSE REGULATION MEANS GUN CONFISCATION

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Right Brain Thinker,

        Again, please provide evidence to support your claims. I’m required to on a daily basis. I have provided accurate statistics from the FBI that are quite different. Please provide your evidence.

        You write: “My question(s) Does W.A.R. “own” the rights to that 71/2011 article or does NewsMax? Can Wayne just “recycle” it like that? Do you and PLD now “own” the rights to Wayne’s “reuse” of that article? I’m not trying to stir anything up, but I would like to understand the “property rights” and “copyright” implications here, if you would be so kind as to explain them…” I have no interest in discussing our arrangement with Mr. Root as it is a private arrangement.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • KenPoland

        Dear Bob Livingston
        You ask RBT to provide proof of his numbers. Can Vickie produce stats for her numbers? How many people in the U.S. today? She says there are 300,000,000 people who haven’t shot anyone. That leaves more people to have shot someone than RBT has listed as having been shot.

        Don’t selectively ask for verification of facts and figures of one and not the other.

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear KenPoland,

        You write: “You ask RBT to provide proof of his numbers.” Correct. And he cannot.

        You write: “Can Vickie produce stats for her numbers?” I don’t know. Feel free to ask her.

        You write: “How many people in the U.S. today?” Approximately 316 million

        You write: “That leaves more people to have shot someone than RBT has listed as having been shot.” Logical fallacy.

        You write: “Don’t selectively ask for verification of facts and figures of one and not the other.” Excuse me? When someone is “selectively” spamming my site with figures I believe phony I will ask for evidence.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dear Bob,

        You say, “Again, please provide evidence to support your claims. I’m required to on a daily basis. I have provided accurate statistics from the FBI that are quite different. Please provide your evidence”.

        And I will again say to you—-show us the numbers you have for the things I commented on. Show us how they differ from mine.

        You say you’re “required” to provide evidence? LOL By whom? Looks to me as if you say what you want to say and devil take the hindmost. I have agreed with some things you have said and even complimented you more than once on your articles (or parts thereof). Some of the things you have said, however, have fallen into the category of “horsepucky”, and when I have pointed that out to you, you have often “tap danced” around the issue. (Will you do that again?, i.e., quote my words back to me and again evade answering? Will you ask me to provide evidence of “tap-dancing”?)

        Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I am not interested in any “private arrangement” you may have with Mr. Root. I am interested in the societal ideas of such things as “intellectual ownership”, “property rights”, “copyrights”, “permission to use”, and “attribution”. I have looked at many “statements” on websites that discuss these things (PLD has one). Being in a business where you surely are familiar with these things, I was hoping you could explain it to me. Is it different in the world of websites than it is in academia?

        Best wishes
        RBT

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Right Brain Thinker,

        You write: “And I will again say to you—-show us the numbers you have for the things I commented on. Show us how they differ from mine.” Obviously you cannot provide evidence of your claims.

        You write: “And I will again say to you—-show us the numbers you have for the things I commented on.” Links are contained in the articles.

        You write: ” Will you ask me to provide evidence of “tap-dancing”?” Yes, as you have yet to do so.

        You write: “Being in a business where you surely are familiar with these things, I was hoping you could explain it to me.” I will not discuss our arrangement.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        RBT: And I will again say to you—-show us the numbers you have for the things I commented on. Show us how they differ from mine.

        Another words, RBT has no sources. He just pulls numbers out of his azz…

      • eddie47d

        RBT is fairly close in numbers for the gun policy center says that gun deaths in 2011 were 32,163 of which 15,953 were homicides and 11,832 were suicides. Gun injuries were 78,622. Not much different in the CDC report.

      • Vicki

        KenPoland says:
        “Dear Bob Livingston
        You ask RBT to provide proof of his numbers. Can Vickie produce stats for her numbers?”

        Yes I can. You can too. Look up US Population (est) 2012.

        - KenPoland: “How many people in the U.S. today?”

        ~ (pay close attention to that symbol as you will see it again soon) 315 million.

        - KenPoland: “She says there are 300,000,000 people who haven’t shot anyone.”

        I most certainly did NOT say 300,000,000. (I am not quibbling over 000,000 vs million)

        - KenPoland: “That leaves more people to have shot someone than RBT has listed as having been shot.”

        Since I didn’t say 300 MILLION your point is irrelevantly argumentative.

        - KenPoland: “Don’t selectively ask for verification of facts and figures of one and not the other.”

        It is Bob’s site and he can if he wants to. You can stay or go at HIS pleasure.

        Now for the record what I have said is

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the actions of a few.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

        (Note to Bob, as long as the numbers RBT gives are within 10x the real numbers it will not have any noticeable effect on my assertion that 99.9% of the population didn’t shoot anyone and that as you know (being one of the ~300 million) we are way past tired of being punished for the acts of a (very very) few.)

      • Vicki

        Right Brain Thinker demonstrates why the left brain is actually useful by saying:
        “THERE ARE ~30,000 GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S. .
        NEARLY 2/3 OF THEM ARE SUICIDES”

        That would be nearly 0.01% of the population.
        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        - RBT: “THERE ARE ~11,000 GUN HOMICIDES EACH YEAR IN THE U.S.”

        Assuming one murderer per murder (it is actually less)
        That would be nearly 0.004% of the population.
        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        - RBT: “THERE ARE ~600 ACCIDENTAL GUN DEATHS A YEAR IN THE U.S.
        MANY IF NOT MOST OF THEM ARE CHILDREN”

        That would be about 0.0002% of the population.
        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        - RBT: “THERE ARE ~200,000 GUN-RELATED INJURIES A YEAR IN THE U.S.

        Now we’re talking some SERIOUS numbers. That would be about
        well…. about 0.07% of the population. Ok maybe not a big percentage after all
        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        - RBT: “STOP TRYING TO DENY THERE’S A PROBLEM”

        We are not denying that there is a problem. The problem is the anti gun crowd. They keep insisting on punishing the innocent for the acts of (as you can see from the percentages about) a VERY VERY few.

        - RBT: “STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT GUNS ARE A FACTOR”

        Guns are inanimate objects not a factor.

        - RBT: “STOP TRYING TO SAY COMMON SENSE REGULATION MEANS GUN CONFISCATION”

        Explain that to NY Governor Cuomo

        - RBT: “STOP TRYING TO DISTRACT US WITH ~300 AMERICANS”

        300? That is the number of Spartans led by King Leonidas who is famously quoted as saying “molon labe” meaning roughly “come and take”
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molon_labe

        We said ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT

        - RBT: “STOP IT
        - RBT: “STOP IT NOW

        Please do.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “Vickie continues to scream out STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT. WELL THEN STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT SCHOOL CHILDREN.”

        Describe how innocent school children are being punished (beyond the obvious of having to survive being brainwashed in public schools)

        - eddie47d: “Stop the reckless behavior of some gun dealers. Stop the recklessness of some gun owners.”

        Describe what behavior you consider reckless.

        - eddie47d: “Stop the NRA from ignoring the problems they now exacerbate.”

        Describe the problems you think they ignore and explain how they can exacerbate something they are ignoring.

        - eddie47d: “The NRA was once a respected organization by all Americans and now it is no more than a shill mouthpiece for extremist right wingers who ignore the consequences of gun violence.”

        Argument to ridicule.

        - eddie47d: “Stop the NRA from treating these mass killings as just another day at the park.”

        Unfounded and probably libelous argument to ridicule.

        - eddie47d: “The NRA use to be a champion of gun control and gun ownership and supported sensible laws so neither side felt threatened.”

        What, and be precise, do feelings have to do with gun control?

        - eddie47d: “Now its nothing but a political agenda for them in maintaining a good standing with the extremists.”

        Argument to ridicule.

        - eddie47d: “That way they can keep the faithful hooked on their propaganda and the money can pour in.”

        Argument to ridicule

        - eddie47d: “The bottom line is support the Second Amendment and support reasonable gun control. Anything less is a copout.”

        Agreed. (See. Eddie and I can agree on some things. :) )
        And to get reasonable gun control lessons I recommend http://www.frontsight.com/

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Hey Ken and eddie,

        I don’t know where Flash has been hiding but we could use his help here. He is an expert on “essences” and I smell something rotten in Denmark.

        Did you notice that Vicki has (feebly) attacked all three of us in comments at 5:59 A.M, 6:05 A.M., and 6:17 A.M.? My reading rate, reading comprehension level, horsepucky detecting rate, and typing all operate at high levels—99th percentile (except for typing—my old fingers don’t move as fast as they did), but what Vicki has done IS IMPRESSIVE.

        I don’t think I could duplicate it except on my very best day—-sit down and read what we said, analyze it, come up with arguments, type it, proofread it—–all in maybe 25 minutes? Could it be that someone else is writing Vicki’s stuff for her? That she just comes in to work and finds it on her desk with a “send these” sticker? Or are there several people posting simultaneously under the handle “Vicki”? So many questions—-so little time (except for Vicki—-she apparently moves at “warp speed”)

        And don’t get knotted knickers over “feebly”, Vicki. I couldn’t think of a more polite word to describe your meaningless little games with meaningless numbers.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Finally getting back to talking to Bob Livingston—-I start at the bottom when i look at a thread, and I had to deal with a lot of mindless horsepucky on the way back up to here, as well as do “real life” things as well. Sorry, Bob—-I know you have been eagerly awaiting my return.

        I said, “Some of the things you have said, however, have fallen into the category of “horsepucky”, and when I have pointed that out to you, you have often “tap danced” around the issue. (Will you do that again?, i.e., quote my words back to me and again evade answering? Will you ask me to provide evidence of “tap-dancing”?)”

        Your response? “Yes, as you have yet to do so”. It is not really necessary to give much evidence of your “tap dancing” here, as it is “self-evident”—-that lawyerly term again..

        You said to Ken, “You write: “You ask RBT to provide proof of his numbers.” Correct. And he cannot”, and later say to me, “Obviously you cannot provide evidence of your claims”.
        You also said to Ken, “Excuse me? When someone is “selectively” spamming my site with figures I believe phony I will ask for evidence”.

        Well excuse ME, Bob, but I have suggested to YOU that the more honest and direct way of dealing with this would be for you to do as I suggested when I said, “And I will again say to you—-show us the numbers you have for the things I commented on. Show us how they differ from mine”. You obviously cannot. And your accusation of “selectively spamming” is far more in need of verification than anything I said in reply to Vicki—-what exactly do you mean by that? Can you provide evidence of that claim?

        Perhaps the biggest display of “tap dancing” comes when I press you by saying “Being in a business where you surely are familiar with these things, I was hoping you could explain it to me.” I got back from you, “I will not discuss our arrangement.”, a reprise of the earlier “I have no interest in discussing our arrangement”.

        I never asked you to discuss your “arrangement” with WAR, but you choose to use that to avoid answering my question. I understand, Bob. You are certainly not always the most gracious host, but I certainly don’t want to be accused of being an ungrateful guest, so I will not pursue the issue.

        Best wishes,
        RBT

      • Jana

        Right brain non-,
        You said,” I don’t know where Flash has been hiding but we could use his help here. He is an expert on “essences” and I smell something rotten in Denmark.”
        That is way too funny. You are smelling yourself!
        Now you think you need help because you can’t come up with logical answers. That’s what happens when you are wrong.
        It is also that Vicki is smart. She doesn’t need a ghost writer like you would. Good grief. She knows her subject and you are out of your depth.
        Par for a paid Socialist mind.

      • Vicki

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        January 26, 2013 at 10:57 am

        Hey Ken and eddie,

        I don’t know where Flash has been hiding but we could use his help here.”

        Please do get him on. I have a question for him. Or perhaps you could answer for him.
        The question:
        “Flashy. Please list JUST ONE right that clashes with the 2nd Amendment.”

        - RBT: “My reading rate, reading comprehension level, horsepucky detecting rate, and typing all operate at high levels—99th percentile (except for typing—my old fingers don’t move as fast as they did), but what Vicki has done IS IMPRESSIVE.”

        Thanks.

        - RBT: “So many questions—-so little time (except for Vicki—-she apparently moves at “warp speed”) ”

        I did warn you that you might have trouble keeping up.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        If Vicki thinks that I am going to get Flash on here for her, she is out of her mind. I want you all to myself, VickI. Let Jana or Kate8 seek him out for themselves and keep him occupied so that Vicki and I can continue our “relationship”..

        And Vicki responds to me spilling the beans on her when I said ” What Vicki has done IS IMPRESSIVE.” with just a simple “Thanks”. Even though that is only one word, it speaks volumes, and brings to mind Vicki’s “sentence lessons”—That ONE WORD is all at once obfuscatory, deflectative, evasivatory, and imperious (particularly the second and third of those).

        And yes, Vicki DID warn me I’d have trouble keeping up—-I am an old guy and Vicki is a “fast mover”. Perhaps everyone may have noticed that she is slowing down also? We are not seeing as much ~300 AMERICANS lately. Hmmmmmm

        And I’m glad I am able to entertain Jana, who reminds me of what “middle school boys jokes” means with, “That is way too funny. You are smelling yourself!” Yes, Jana, smells are high on the humor list for 12-year-olds. I’m sorry we don’t have a sound capability here, or I would have Jana rolling on the floor with some of those cool noises you can make with a cupped hand in an armpit.

        Speaking of middle school culture, it is also touching that Jana shows such support for the leader of her clique with “It is also that Vicki is smart”. LOL

      • Fred

        This is actually for RBT…I could not find the “reply” link on his post..: this is a direct quote from statistics compiled by the FBI: In 2011 – the latest year for which detailed statistics are available – there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms.
        Or, you can go to http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-…..with information garnered from the homicide table for the US in 2011 ..taking the total number of homicides and doing the calculation for 67.7% being caused by firearms, you come up with a whopping total of 9,419 in 2011.

        This is a direct quote from http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
        1.15 MILLION abortions performed in the US in 2009.
        Government Sanctioned Murder of unborn children. They want us to believe them when they say they are acting on the behalf of the safety of children and families with their new gun ban legislation.. What a load of hogwash!!!
        No need to reply, the facts speak for themselves, and my sources are provided.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Fred provides some numbers that point in the same direction as mine and some links to data that I have looked at more than once. Thanks, Fred, As I said, we can wave lots of numbers around but the fact remains that we have a significant number of gun DEATHS every year. Did you really read what I said and think about it? What do you think you’re arguing about with me?

        And you want to to talk about abortion? That’s a totally different topic that I have some strong feelings about, but this thread is about guns.

    • Bill

      Let’s just do it like the gun grabbers do. Any drug linked to any shooting should be banned. The mental health industry is just a great way to push dangerous, mind altering drugs

      • eddie47d

        Drugs are another part of the problem and some of those drugs never should have been put into the market either. Is Big Pharma responsible for helping or damaging the human mind ? Like the proliferation of guns I would say a little of both.

    • Dean

      Right Brian thinker….

      If this is your platform for gun control, then why dont we take cars away from everyone to prevent deaths. Car accidents cause more deaths than guns. As people say its not the person its the gun, so then that kine of resoning would be to say its not the driver its the car. Obviously that is obsued. Its because everyone has a car and not everyone has a gun. So its easy for people to yell gun control when there not effected.
      .

      • Right Brain Thinker

        If you’re still looking at this thread, Dean, let me say that your argument is not as absurd as suggesting that “we should ban water because people drown in it”, as Jana or someone of her ilk said. Almost, though.

    • Jana

      Poor non thinking Right Brain,
      You must really be getting senile.
      You are the one who asked where Flash was and I quote you:

      Right Brain Thinker says:
      January 26, 2013 at 10:57 am

      Hey Ken and eddie,

      I don’t know where Flash has been hiding but we could use his help here. He is an expert on “essences” and I smell something rotten in Denmark.

      Then you say :
      If Vicki thinks that I am going to get Flash on here for her, she is out of her mind. I want you all to myself, VickI. Let Jana or Kate8 seek him out for themselves and keep him occupied so that Vicki and I can continue our “relationship”.
      wow, you are some piece of work. You don’t even remember what you wrote from one minute to the next. Maybe its time for you to retire from posting- permanently! One can only hope.

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