Contact your STATE government and make that demand…

To Mr. Peters: You see, dumb statements like that is the reason why conservatives are being laughed at. Now, konck it off and get lost so the GOP can get back to policy that made them effective in 20-30 yrs ago. Granted, times have changed since then but ideas still can work when applied correctly. TGIF!!

Effective in what, Tony, feathering their own nests and those of their Crony Capitalists? The Republican Party was founded in 1854 on a platform of Mercantilism and Big Government. And they’ve been growing the Federal Government ever since, in spite of their stated platform of “small government”.
http://mises.org/daily/3098

Have you seen any of the petitions. They asked for full name physical address and e-mail address. Where are you getting your information? From a cereal box or just somebodies imagination?

At least the petition I saw, and did not sign because of where the information went.

Karolyn,how long have you been a communist????

Leave it to Bob Peters to endorse racist slurs or didn’t you think we’d notice? .

Capitalist – Just going by what was in the article. I see the racist comment was finally removed.

What do you know? Flashman is capable of being honest once in a while.

Sure you can, Flashman, except that in Dave’s case it will be his parents money that you’re taking, since he is unemployable because of his mental deficits, lives in their basement, and sponges off them.

And “Should Have Been Capped At Birth” demonstrates that he is a PATRIOT and a REAL ‘MURICAN by showing his lack of understanding of the First Amendment. Ban “US” from the site—-all FIVE of us? There are so few of us that we really don’t get in the way of the circular firing squad too much, Cap. Learn to live with it.

Speaking of FEMA camps, the biggest one is in Alaska, with room for 2 MILLION prisoners, no less, And Cap said in another comment that Alaska was the only safe place left? DUHHHH!!

And did I call it about how crowded this sandbox would get? I’m leaving this thread now and not returning. I have actually found a thread on PLD where some intelligent discourse is going on and will spend my time there (or until the stooges appear, anyway).

RBT says — “I have actually found a thread on PLD where some intelligent discourse is going on”.
They aren’t allowing you to comment?

How do you detect voter fraud with a cell-phone?

amusedinil – You want evidence of voter fraud? Didn’t you look at any of the articles and videos showing just that, all over the country?

Surely you are kidding. Or maybe you are just another person who just decides what’s true and not true according to what you want to be true, and never seek out any other possibilities. Or even look at them when they are placed before you.

I am forever amazed at how many Americans refuse to look outside of their little box. How are we ever going to pull this thing out when so many won’t even take a look at what we’re up against? You cannot set things right if you refuse to see what’s wrong.

Goldwater said “extremism is a virtue” so has your memory gone soft.

Your memory is the one that’s gone eddie, Goldwater said “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”

That makes extremism a virtue although I should not have used quotation marks. Thanks.

DaveH, last I heard, the SCOTUS decides what is in violation of the Constitution. Not you.

They gave themselves that power. Since none of the three branches are allowed to take more power for themselves (all three illegally have though) if it null and void.

Help me out, Flashman. I can’t find where in the Constitution that the Supreme Court was given the Power of being the Final Arbiter of the Constitution?
https://www.cato.org/constitution/constitution_en.html

DaveH says:
November 30, 2012 at 11:08 am

Help me out, Flashman. I can’t find where in the Constitution that the Supreme Court was given the Power of being the Final Arbiter of the Constitution?

Madison v Marbury decided that about 200 years ago so Flashman is correct , you are two hundred years behind the times and clearly you have no idea what the Constitution is or does your reference for facts, as usual, is nothing more than a figment of your imagination and skewed thinking

Thanx Smilee..though it was highly amusing to have verified DaveH has so scant knowledge of our Constitution. Mises must not have had a catchy title for him to cut and paste …

Flashy says “…last I heard, the SCOTUS decides what is in violation of the Constitution. Not you.”

Last I heard, the SCOTUS decisions are only interpretations of legislation and constitution, and such interpretations can only be referenced. They do not stand as law forever more.

Smilee says “Madison v Marbury decided that about 200 years ago.”

That is some strange reasoning you have Smilee. Do you honestly think that the Supreme Court can, in the judgment of a case, give itself final authority? The United States Constitution does not explicitly establish the power of judicial review. Rather, the power of judicial review is simply claimed to be inferred, by the Supreme Court no less, from the structure, provisions, and history of the Constitution. We can easily reference the debates on judicial review to find that Supreme Court was never meant to have a final say on those matters as if they were law, because a judgment of Constitutionality could be incorrect, and thus should not stand as law… otherwise, it would have effectively made the Court a legislating body by mere twists of interpretation.

When the Court ruled secession unconstitutional (immediately following the Civil War to cover Lincolns ass, no less) that judgment was incorrect, and not binding because it failed to address the simple structure of the Constitution which is; the Constitution only delegates powers to the United States Federal Government. It doesn’t grant rights to the States or to the people. Therefore because secession, nor even how a state could go about secession, is never mentioned in the Constitution, it is NOT a power delegated to the United States by the Constitution, and thus reserved for the States and the people unilaterally. And that is the only logical and reasonable judgment the Court could rightfully give, else their judgment itself subverts the Constitution.

Exactly! Awesome and knowledgeable comment!

You can argue all you want that you are smarter than the Supreme Court Justices but the simple fact is they have the power to determine and define the Constitution’s meaning and only them your opinion differs from that meaning absolutly nothing and your words become by virtue of the courts rulings pure malarkey and yet you are so arrogant as to say you know better than them, Stuff your BS

Yes, excellent comment. How comical that Flush uses a Supreme Court decision to prove that the Supreme Court is the final arbitor.

And how willing the Left is to bow to the SCOTUS without question. No wonder we’re in such a mess.

Hey, Fush. WE the People are the final arbitors in America. Our Consitution declares that government is derived from the consent of the governed. If you prefer slavery in order to get handouts, then you are in for a real sad time when these clowns get kicked out.

You can argue all you want that you are smarter than the Supreme Court Justices but the simple fact is they have the power to determine and define the Constitution’s meaning and only them your opinion differs from that meaning absolutly nothing and your words become by virtue of the courts rulings pure malarkey and yet you are so arrogant as to say you know better than them, Stuff your BS

Not just me… as I pointed out we can easily reference debates on the doctrine of judicial review. In fact, Jefferson, one of the most prominant founders, objected to this doctrine at every turn. Obviously if you support such doctrine then you agree that any law contrary to the Constitution is void. Under that same reasoning, any court judgement contrary to the Consitution is also void. To say that the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of all Consitutional questions, effectively and voluntarily allows the court (despotically for no other reason than the courts says so) to act as an oligarchy in an office for life which is not even responsible, as the other functionaries are, to elective control. In addition, your opinion gives on of the three branches (which were meant to have equal checks and balances on each other) the power to prescribe rules to the other two based only on their interpretation. The simple fact, Smilee, is that the Constitution erected no such tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves. A Supreme Court saying it has power over the other two is a usurpation of the Constitution the same as their judgment on secession, and by the same logic that presumes to allow them that authority (as pointed out above), those judgements are also void. So stricktly speaking, it is your opinion of the matter that means absolutely nothing and your words by virtue of the Consitution are pure ‘malarkey’. The American people are simply letting them get away with it.

TML says:
December 1, 2012 at 5:25 pm

Madison v Marbury settled it and it has been settled law for over 200 years and the actual practice since then. Your whole post is totally inaccurate and irrelevant as the court counts you do not and all you have succeeded in doing it reveal for all to see how ignorant and stupid you are. Try as you might with words you can change nothing as you and your position have not one iota of power to do so, your one huge joke.

The only “jokes” here, Sleepee, are you and Flashman.
The Supreme Court is a branch of the Federal Government, and no States would have signed on to the Constitution if they knew that the Supreme Court would have the final say about Constitutionality. It would be like the Fox guarding the Hen House — Something only ignorant Liberal Progressive Followers could swallow.
Does anybody with any sense believe that our Freedom-Loving Founders would have allowed a bunch of unelected officials, who belong to the Federal Government gang, to be the Final Arbiters of Constitutionality?
http://mises.org/daily/3185

First of all you have no way of knowing what the states would have done, and since Marbury v Madison over two hundred years ago this has been the role of the supreme court and no attempts to amend the Constitution to change it have since occurred so it is the law of the land since then and remains so today and nothing you say or do can change that. You are entitled to your opinion even when it is wrong and you are here.

Smilee says “Madison v Marbury settled it and it has been settled law for over 200 years…”

And the point is… who settled it? Certainly not the American people, or even Congress, nor even the President. As I said, it’s not my authority. It is a simple fact that the Constitution erected no such tribunal. Whether it has been practiced over the years is merely an appeal to tradition, not any kind of law or the land, and therefore irrelevant to the discussion. The interesting thing to me is, you know you have lost the argument, but continue to cling to such circular reasoning by claiming the Supreme Court has final authoprity on Constitutional question merely becaue they say so…. even putting the judgement of a court above the Constitution itself.

Weather you consider it your authority or not is totally irrelevant to reality, it is the authority in law and it is binding even on you even if you do not admit it. You live in a dream world totally devoid of reality. You are a fool!!!

I’m well aware that many ignorant people such as yourself accept the fallicious reasoning you present, to allow such despotism to continue. But your only proving my point by espousing the idea that such ruling by the judicial branch stands as law rather than the law itself. The authority which you say is irrelevant is called the Constitution, the law of the land, and there is no question or argument even by those like you that the Constituion does not explicitly erect the tribunal you relish, nor give the power of judicial review

Don,

There’s no exit tax unless you meet one of these criteria:
:
1. you have a net worth of US$ 2 million or more; OR

2. you have an average net U.S. income tax liability of greater than US$ 139,000 (thereafter indexed for inflation; $145,000 for people expatriating in 2009) for the five year period prior to expatriation; OR

3. you fail to certify that you have complied with all U.S. federal tax obligations for the preceding five years.

Basically, unless you’re fairly rich, or haven’t paid your taxes, you’re literally “FREE” to go!

Your “birth freedom” gave you one of the most precious gifts in the history of the world–American citizenship in the 20th century. If you think that’s not valuable, there are countries that will be glad to have you, and literally billions of people who would change places with you in a heartbeat.

In America, we vote for our government. Whatever other rights we have (religion, bear arms, free speech, due process, etc.), our right to elect our government is the basis for the American way of life.

And the guy who gets the most votes (subject to electoral college rules) becomes President.

If you don’t love that part of America, I don’t understand what part of America you do love, and perhaps you should leave.

amuse, you amuse me. We don’t have legitimate elections, first off! Americans haven’t picked their presidents for decades and we sure didn’t pick the one in 08 or 2012. The fix was in before one vote was cast.

And, you basically said that a person is FREE to go unless the government thinks you owe them money! How funny you are… If that is freedom in your mind, we are a great omaumau supporter.

How can they be reeducation camps if no one is in them?

I have been arguing with stupid people for fifty years about the totalitarian socialist creep that has been going on in this country for over 100 years. To no avail. They thought I was off the deep end. or had been hit in the head too many times. They still like to pretend that Obama has benign intentions. Ha Ha! The joke will be on them. I for one predicted all of this in 1998. No one would listen. It is time to get the hell out of Dodge. When my Father passes away, I will simply leave this country if I am not already murdered or in prison.

Which country have you picked out Capitalist or is this strictly small talk for you?

The fiber that once held this country together is being destroyed. The country is being fragmented by the foreigners from different countries that are flooding into this country.
They are taking the country by sheer numbers. They are mostly the poor, uneducated, and highly needy! They are not here to assimulate or become Americans. They are here to take the country, something they didn’t help build! They are being recruited by our own government, to help in the destruction. An intelligent, educated European with a skill to offer, cannot get into this country. Government only wants the “stupid and uneducated” those that are unable to think for themselves.

When this country was 80% White, we were prosperous and there was a moral fiber that was shared. Everyone worked together and had goals of prosperity. Hard work was respected, morality was expected. This is what works!

BTW has anyone noticed that government is becoming all blacks in any position of authority.
Name me any country governed blacks where the people are prosperous and free

Texas Ride says:
November 30, 2012 at 10:32 am

When this country was 80% White, we were prosperous and there was a moral fiber that was shared. Everyone worked together and had goals of prosperity. Hard work was respected, morality was expected.

WE GET THE MESSAGE YOU’RE A BIGOT AND A RACIST, IF EVERYONE WAS ALMOST ALL WHITE AGAIN THEN THINGS WOULD THEN BE HONKY DOREY AGAIN What a joke. We been flooding this country with immigrants for over 400 years and I believe before that there was no whites here so I guess at some time it was the whites flooding this country. YOUR MESSAGE IS LOUD AND CLEAR AND PURE BS

Texas Ride actually makes some very good points, and it was entirely predictable that one of the leftist trolls would bring up the R word.

You cannot tell the truth in this country if it violates political correctness. You must lie, in order to preserve the feelings of the guilty.

But that only matters when you are speaking of OTWs. OTWs can hurl all manner of hate and racism toward whites, and the libs rally ’round.

How about we look and see how the Left has created this sense of entitlement among OTWs in this country. How about we see how they are, by implication by the left, made to appear incapable of speaking for themselves because they “need protection” against the evil white people. Is this not the ultimate racism and condescension?

How about we restore equality to EVERYONE, regardless of skin color?

Smiley, answer the question….Name me one country that is governed by blacks where the people are prosperous and free! Just one!

White Europeans built this country. No one else was smart enough to do it. What countries have lead the world, the European countries. What countries are third-world-world…Sorry, but that is the way it is… Wake me up when a black country becomes something other than a place with starving people, a dictator, mass murders, and poverty for all.

Your really hell bent on reinforcing your bigotry and racism, why not quit when you are ahead

It will get ugly. I had never owned a fire arm until Nov. 8th 2008. I would estimate with my anecdotal observation and the articles I have read that there was at least a 30% increase of persons who never previously owned a fire arm purchasing them since that time. Get ready for mayhem.

You’re correct… There’s a very good reason why gun and ammo sales have gone through the roof for the last four years, and are still accelerating…

AmeriCorps is just another Leftist group. I don’t care how they try to cloak their agenda with “assistance” and good works, the real purpose is to further degrade and destroy America.

They are using monies confiscated from taxpayers, who have no choice in how it is used. There is no reason to bring in immigrants from third world countries and offer them living money and money to set up businesses while Americans are left hungry and jobless.

This is the kind of stuff that has to end. Thanks to the Left, we are a country divided along every possible line, in the name of “diversity” and “compassion”. The founders knew that in order to remain strong and united, we must have a common culture and shared values. You can’t have everyone playing by different rules and survive.

The Left set about to destroy us using every means of divide and conquer. Not only has it increased our population density far faster than it would otherwise have been (as they now cry ‘overpopulation!’), but we are a nation of separate groups, some entitled, others (white American) not.

Thanks a lot, you guys. You’ve brought us down from being the greatest nation on Earth, to being just another third-world banana republic. I suppose you feel completely justified. It’s really interesting how suicidal the Left is.

Ameri-Corpes, that’s what it should be called. It’s an organization that promotes communisim from within. Taxpayers are paying for their own destruction. This organization if writh with coruption and graft. It’s a boodoggle program for people who want to live on the government teet, period. It accomplishes nothing for the kids in the program, except to enhance their feelings of entitlement.

When you have 95% of a group voting for Obama because of skin color and a large percentage of Hispanics voting for him for another reason, it’s pretty clear that the Demographics are working against Conservative minded individuals in this country. Don’t think you’ll see a true Conservative President anytime in the near future.

Bill, you are of course, correct, and this is what is spurring talks of succession. Many conservatives no longer feel they can get a representative government, when the masses are uneducated morons, and fail to see how they are part of the Liberal plantation!

“Paul Wells says:
November 30, 2012 at 8:11 am

I respectfully disagree. I don’t think the poacher in the WH gives one whit about what anyone thinks, he’s on a mission….destroy American exceptional-ism as quickly as possible. I find it laughable that so many are taken in by his line of BS!”

They are taken in by Ovomit’s line of BS because we have morphed into a nation of people who either work for a living, or people on entitlements who vote for a living.

Carlucci – So true.

The amusing thing is, it doesn’t matter who wins…whether Obama et al turn this country into third world Agenda 21 prison camp, or the good guys win and we resore our Republic… their “entitlements” are going to go away.

The difference is, if Obama accomplishes his goals, those on the dole become dead weight, and we see historically what happens to those who are dependent on government when they gain absolute control (might I point out what Hitler did to the elderly, the infirm, the disabled and the impoverished….as well as the opposition).

On the other hand, if the patriots win out, the useless will have the opportunity to find a means of supporting themselves, if they so choose. Otherwise, they can always mooch off their neighbors and relatives. At least they’ll be allowed to live.

The majority were voting for him and gave him four more years, only a handful believe he is an alien and are laughed at by the vast majority

Similee don’t try to have a serious thought, it doesn’t work for you.

Ignore “Smilee” he’s just smelly.

Canada of course! We are not a communist country, socialist yes, communist no. Even our New Democrats couldn’t qualify as communists. We actually have a communist party that runs candidates in our federal elections. We have a Libertarian party, a Green party for the fanatic tree huggers, a Conservative party, a Liberal (boo,! hiss!) party, even a secessionist (separatist) party. Something for everyone. If you can’t find a party you like, start one. But, be warned it does get really, really cold up here in the winter and we have to work hard to keep warm. Many of our citizens are former citizens of the US.

The US has a myriad of political parties too so why would it be any better in Canada. Canada is more accepting of immigrants (The French do give them trouble occasionally) LOL! … so that would rile a few Conservatives right off the bat. They have National Healthcare so if you are trying to speak to this choir that in it self would keep them away in droves. Then you have tough guy Capitalist at Birth who can’t stand the cold so I think that leaves Canada out as the new frontier for these secessionist folks.

Unless you just pulled your head out of the sand, Johnson messed with MY social security, not the govt. money, money I paid into. Dam right I’m worried!

Ultimately, the struggle distills into oligarchies vs. democratic-republics. Crony-capitalism and socialist movements always transform into oligarchies and monarchies. These oligarchies sometimes transform into democratic-republics. And the cycle repeats as documented by the recorded history of mankind.

The Constitution is sometimes only a smoke screen around here. If you have been paying attention this is a site with Southern views and hurt feeling from one hundred and fifty years ago. Attempting to regain lost honor has always been a heartbeat away from those diehards. Where Lincoln is still the man to loath and the crux of their disillusionment. Many Southerners rooted for Ron Paul (I like him too) and his loss was a big blow to their egos too. Then along comes Romney whom they never loved but they had to accept him since the South is mostly Republican territory and his loss made the whole bunch of them bitter old men and women. Then black Obama gets reelected (not 12% bud) and that is just too much for the Red States. Seceding is a dream of lost causes and they do have a right to attempt such a feat but their angry reasoning just doesn’t cut it.

GR, you just might be wrong on all points. The government has said that the blacks were 12% of the population ever since I was in grade school! With the money paid to black women to become “producers” they should be about 30% of the population by now! Government doesn’t want you to know the actual number.
And, you can bet your booty that the government is in fear of an uprising of the african natives… Until the blacks consider themselves to be Americans instead of an ethnic group there will be racism, reverse racism at its worst. Remember that the Black Panther leader said that “We must kill all White babies!” Not much of anything was ever said about that, was it..Blacks will always vote for anyone that doesn’t have White skin. Nothing else matters to them. Lets just bury our heads in the sand and keep paying them to multiply, as we do with all other minorities.

The foreigner has meet with NO resistance from any government entity, and has faced no charges for illegal treasonous acts. If this were a White man, he would have been thrown under the bus long ago. None of the this would have been tolerated by the country, .We all know that to be true. It is undeniable. There is intimidation, our politicians are afraid of retribution. They have seen it happen to others. The politicians know a lot more about what is going on than we have been told. The people haven’t a clue and are being lead to slaughter like sheep.
Our leaders are saving themselves, securing their place in a world they are convinced is coming and that it is futile to resist. Do I think people are afraid…that is a resounding “Yes.”

GR,

You must live in Cloud Cuckoo county. When you say that the military/militia wont shoot Americans in America, what about Kent State et al. Just read Peoples History of America to see how many times Governors have called in their militias/military to suppress unarmed civilians during your 200+ year history.

The Greatest Country in the World is fading fast. Don’t blink, NC.
In the 2002 Annual Report on Economic Freedom from the Fraser Institute, the US was ranked 3rd in Economic Freedom, surpassed only by Hong Kong and Singapore.
In the 2012 Annual Report on Economic Freedom, the US is ranked 18th. We have now fallen behind former 3rd World Countries such as Chile, Bahrain, Estonia, and Qatar in Economic Freedom.

??????

“Thumbs UP”!!!!

LOL. . . just wait Warrior, Flasho is conjuring up a new feeder line for the “Fundamental Transformation” story. Why they don’t ever want it to slip off the “best seller list”.

DaveH…I’m sure you can find a Mises link explaining it.

What characteristics make up members of the the Islamic Taliban?

That’s easy Dave H but I’m sure you know the answer and just love to pull Flashy’s chain! Its control by guns and religious extremism aka; Taliban and the American extreme right.

I’ll take a crack at this one….. and to illustrate I’ll offer the Israel/Gaza Strip/ Palestine fiasco as a parable……

Palestinians launch missles into Israel for weeks…. Israel finally fights back and the headlines proclaim “Israel responsible for the ESCALATION of hostilities in Middle East”. Things were fine while all the aggression was on one side…. now they’re POed because for some reason they don’t want missles fired at them anymore… (no explanation for some peoples degree of sefishness).

Enter the redistributionists who state… “sit down, shut up, and give us all your stuff”. When I reply “I’m tired of subsidizing your life choices…. earn your own stuff” Presto-chango “if you don’t like the 1-way status-quo…….you’re now the American Taliban”.

As usual, Flashman avoids answering the question.

Eddie,
can you explain how possessing guns and religion makes somebody like the Taliban?

Sorry, DaveH, eddie47d is too busy signing a petition.

http://www.thechortle.com/Chortle23/TheChortle2207_ROFLMAO.png

There are places in Central and South America where it is happening now. I don’t think there is any place safe other than Alaska, and I don’t particularly like the climate, from what I have read. I have been to Minnesota and the climate is very similar to North Dakota and Montana. I don’t particularly like that climate either.

I would agree with you, Bill, if there was any vestige of federalism left in this nation. Unfortunately, there isn’t – and even in a freedom-loving state such as Wyoming, the federal Leviathan still has sunk its blood-sucking tentacles into its affairs (i.e., private ranching and oil/gas exploration). The only way to combat this is to pursue nullification of all unconstitutional laws (starting with Obamacare and onerous EPA mandates) and to set up state-based federal tax escrow accounts that would allow individual States to determine how much “Gomorrah on the Patomac” receives of OUR tax money.

For more information, see the following links:
http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/01/18/resistdc-the-federal-tax-funds-act/
http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/08/30/the-federal-tax-escrow-account/

It’s time to REALLY starve the beast.

Steve Shute says:
November 30, 2012 at 8:04 am

You clearly do not understand the US Constitution, the tenth amendment gives power only to the states and/or the people if that power is not vested in Congress or denied the states by any part of the Constitution and Obamaare is an example that it has been found to have the power to do so vested in Congress and not the states so say the SC earlier this year and that is how our system of government works under the terms of our US Constitution. The states have ratified the US Constitution and the news states have to agree to it which is a voluntary release of power to Congress where the Constitution gives it to them with the blessing of the states. The States created the US government and the Constitution not the other way around. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT tuff!! AS YOU CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

Capitalist, Texas is welcoming conservatives! It is a great place and you won’t find more patriots anywhere! We need to keep it that way, so more conservatives are important.

Sadly, Steve, deficit spending proves the beast refuses to be starved. That playbook (reducing taxes) doesn’t work anymore. A balanced budget amendment might get their attention, but given time, I have faith, they’d learn to disobey or bypass this as well since they’ve disobeyed or bypassed all other Constitutional restraints placed on them.

Bill,

Have you been listening to the news recently? There was a major altercation going on between Israel and Palestine/Gaza because one side thought that the other had “stolen” their land.

When you guys move to N Dakota or Wyoming, there wont be any ‘free’ un-used or un-allocated land for you all to relocate on, so what are you going to do with the existing residents who do not follow your ideas?

This idea of secessation is just a pipe dream and unobtainable unless one stays put in their existing locations. You will have to find an alternative method of changing conditions until they more closely resemble what it is you actually want.

In reply to the stoner A-Hole who didn’t know that Opryland was paved over and redeveloped 10 years ago. You should remember that all your best laid plans will evaporate like the smell of napalm in the morning once the shooting starts. Then what should concern you is how will blue America fuel and feed its population? Next how will you defend two coasts 2,500 miles apart, separated by a hostile power, two mountain ranges, and one of Earth’s largest rivers? The next thing for the Blue States of America to worry about is an army of Mexicans and Central Americans descending on California with visions of plunder dancing in their heads. That alone should buy the TSA 10 years to dig in and consolidate. Then the example of what happened to California and the fear of being left stuck out there all by themselves should bring Oregon and Washington into realignment with Alaska and the TSA. The alternative will be the Pacific North West absorbing 25,000,000 displaced Californians. Of course the first winter 100 and by the next spring only 50 million refugees will be left seeking asylum in the Blue States not to mention an army of penniless and jobless Carpet Baggers who pulled up stakes on principle. Since the blue states already are unable to create enough jobs for all their people, I fear the Blue fraction of the republic will falter and fail. But such is the fate of all peoples who foolishly reject a boring nationhood in favor of a flashy multi-cultural empire. In just the 20th Century look at the examples of succession in the multi-cultural Russian, French, German, Japanese, Italian, Serbian, British, Ottoman, and the Austrian-Hungarian Empires. You still think it can’t happen here?

Given that your new secession states would have no armed forces…well…you’d be no more than a speedbump.

Good luck getting your goods and services across borders, chump.

Sorry to say that no one will be allowed to secede peacefully…Think why omaumau likes to compare himself to lincoln…

That is not possible Davy as the states will not be allowed to, of course, real people know this whole thing is a joke and will never happen. A hand full of jerks do not run either the states or the Country, Thank God!!

The usual ad hominem attack from a useless Liberal Progressive eater.

What are your usual ad hominem attacks called Dave H., Politically correct conservative politeness?

I love your silly responses when you run out of words to address the issue at hand

Does it bother you guys that I break your rules and bring a gun to your gun fight?

But smilee, you just called your O a jerk.

Yes. Under our system it’s called an election. We just had one and, apparently, the American people do not agree with you or your candidate’s positions and plans for the country. I hope you at least respect our system and the will of the American people. Given the choice, the right decision was made.

So, DavidL, if the Federal Government requires the confiscation of all wealth, you’re okay with that because the voters put them in office?

Seeing as they are not, whats your point, can you ever stay on topic??

DavidL, did that clause from the Declaration of Independence even slow down between your ears? Did the colonies ask for a vote? Did they ask permission from the king? Below here someone said that Scalia said the Civil War decided we have no right to secede . Well duh? You don’t ask permission to alter or abolish, the whole point is to abolish or alter and establish new, and of course the monster will not give you permission to execute him. Opinions like Scalia’s and the courts and politicians is why the tree of liberty must be refreshed.

Didn’t I hear the other Dwarfs ringing the dinner bell, Sleepee?

The key word here is “destruction” and I submit your definition is highly focused and narrow in its scope, unlike the definition everyone else would offer.

Amused..i didn’t read anywhere lofty proposing to secede from the Union. i would suggest you direct your invitations to leave to those wishing to secede. They’re all in a hurry to git up and out, they should git up and get out. i suggest Central America or S America. Canada wouldn’t want such a band of lunatics…

Flush – How about we escort you and your commie pals to Cenral or South America to build your Utopia, and you stop trying to change the US. If we kicked you out, we’d have our freedom back. YOU people are the insurrectionists.

Oh, wait…They surely don’t want you down there, either. Maybe Antarctica? Maybe you could exercise your control over some penquins… But I doubt they’d tolerate it, either.

Oh KateH8, perhaps you were a bit confused about the election’s outcome. The MAJORITY spoke. The rest of you are just little kids who need a time out in the corner.

Which majority are you talking about? The majority of the VOTES, or the majority of the VOTERS? They are NOT the same thing.

Yes it can happen here and anywhere as it has through out history.

“They should be working on their state legislators…”? Why? So a proxy can “beg their masters for freedom”? Deny the authority of government, deny the idea that anyone can rule by force and claim to be moral, even if they have support of a majority. Deny that democracy is a moral justification. Declare you independence as a sovereign individual. The individual is sovereign, not the mob. Therefore, no neighborhood is sovereign, no city is sovereign, no county is sovereign, no state is sovereign, no union is sovereign.

Dear Gunny,

You are 100% correct { we all must start in our own states}, > the best place is your state’s Governor,{ If enough states Governor’s would stop allowing in the Federal’s} then the Federals will have no one to boss around.

This is really quite simple to see ~ if you all will allow the smoke to clear the room.

If a nautral disaster happens, all the persons within your state need to aide each other and tell FEMA and the FEDS where to get off.
Not unlike what just happened with Sandy, the South Eastern states sent electric workers and construction people up to NJ and NY only to have them sent back home as soon as they arrived.
Why? Due to the “STATES ~ UNIONS” as they would not have “NON Union” people working.
So even if at one point in TIME the Unions were a good thing, ~ they have not only failed their members ~ but they also have failed thier States populations when the people need help.

On a differant note: People you need to take back your home town, then each small unit builds until you take back your state. If you have the ability then run for your local Gov seats then do it,
Its not going to be some special person that saves this nation, its going to be YOU!

Be Fair minded, but be firm, our “Moral Compass” is broken ~ and until this nation has a fix on that, we will just keep flowing down the river of dispair and hoplessness.

There can be Change for Good, { but again “YOU” have to work for it.} Its sucks to have to do the work but if you want the “Original Constitution” and Bill of Rights back, then we have to get back to it one step at a time.
Remove all Amendments from the Fake 13th upward. Get the “Original” 13th back in place and oh what a differance just that would make.
Don’t know what the Original 13th Amendment was or is, then you need to start l;ooking into what it was, and learn about {what} was done to it and {who} did it and {why}, and {When}.

Again, don’t complain, just get your hands dirty and do what has to be done.
“”The United States is a Corporation”" ~ and YOU are not in it!

The Federal Reserve ~ is also ~ not a good thing and it needs to be removed.
Also the criminals behind it need to be allowed the same treatment they have given the Worlds Population, {starvation, deprived of Human rights,} and everything else thay have brought about.
The NEA needs to go, The FBI needs to go, the DEA, needs to go, all of these crazy controls over human’s abilitys to have a life need to go, After all all they do is expand the Criminal elements in this nation and thats of no value to anyone with a MORAL BASE!

Also we have to ~Get rid of all LOBBYIST ~ No one is more special then the next. Nothing is FREE and everyone has to work to make a Positive differance, a free phone or EBT’ Cards will not cut it.
These people need to become productive members of the unit, even if all they do is baby sit, its still something.
We can never stop the maddness if we keep growing it!

I am all for progress, and to make life better for everyone, but that also IMPLIES that everyone must help in this venutre ~ as in NO sitting around doing nothing. We must all become once again ” SOVEREIGN CITIZENS.” In “SOVEREIGN STATES.” In a
” SOVEREIGN NATION.” Not one run by the United Nations.

Peace and Love

Remember that under UN’s Agenda 21 – that both Obama and Romney support – “depopulation” is one of the measures they are using for population control.

I fight them openly because if we are quiet and do nothing but hide they will take greater liberties while taking ours and our lives.

Look up how many of the military and LEO “suicides” were done with 2 headshot wounds from different weapons.

Look up (is VERY difficult now to get the numbers) how many in the CIA, FBI, SS, LEO’s, US Miltiary have been “placed” in psych hospitals for not going along with this government. Very hitleresque of them isn’t it?

In Germany the ‘N’ party plans were for the overthrow of, and then the “capture” of the legitimate central government so they could change it to what they wanted. {me – Sound familiar?}

(From the Nuremeberg Trials: A separate government was set up within the legitimate government within the Party to exercise outside the law every sanction that any legitimate state could exercise and many that it could not {Obama’s “Czars”, TSA, DHS}.
The Party had its own secret police, its security units, its intelligence and espionage division, its raiding forces, and its youth forces {DHS, TSA, look up “Obama youth” on youtube.com}.
It also established administrative mechanisms over time to identify those who supported the legitimate government {Patriot Act, NDAA, warrantless searches, warrantless spying, TSA, Petittions, etc}.
They “encouraged” the populace to inform on their own neighbors, friends, family {“See Something, Say Something”, and other videos the DHS put out here in America}.

“Uncontrolled search and seizure is one of the first and most effective weapons in the arsenal of every arbitrary government. Among deprivations of rights, none is so effective in cowing a population, crushing the spirit of the individual and putting terror in every heart.” Justice Robert Jackson, Chief U.S. Prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials

A presidential decree was created suspending the extensive guarantees of individual liberty contained in the constitution of the Weimar Republic. Those decree’s were restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion – including freedom of the press, on the right of peaceful assembly, the right of association;
and violations of the privacy: postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications;
and no need for warrants for house-searches, orders for, confiscations as well as restrictions on property, etc all taken away under the guise of “keeping the people safe”. {much like what is happening within the USA today, as all of the “restrictions” on our freedoms are “for our own safety”}
Many were arrested as “belligerents” – no real crime committed, just disagreeing with the destruction of their legitimate government.

Secret arrest and indefinite detention; without charges, without evidence, without hearing, without counsel, and no court could issue an injunction, or writ of habeas corpus, or certiorari. The German people were in the hands of the police, the police were in the hands of the ‘N’ Party, and the Party was in the hands of a ring of evil men who wanted to rule the world.
{The concept then was to control the world; the concept now is to make a one-world “government”, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? Any of this sound familiar to anyone who has been in the USA over the last 15 or so years? Because it should.

You have something there Gunny. I really think Chip misses the whole picture. I guess by now it is pretty clear that with so many wanting ‘out’, we should reconsider our stance. Let’s stay and get rid of all the crooks in the WH and Congress. We should only keep the folks that believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

dON’T THINK THEY ARE GOING TO JAIL Think FEMA camps and the patriot act.

Don: I am going to challenge you on the Sovereignty, because I know you have not read the “Law of Nations” (and is a Supreme Law of the Land per the Constitution) which deals directly into Sovereignty as is recognized by all empires universally. G.W. Bush said it best and succinctly. He was the “Decider”, and he was right. A Sovereign is the “Decider” and that decision making can be allotted to a State, a group, or any organization as long as you are signed to it, and all of the signees have a voice in deciding. A leader is APPOINTED by all of the deciders, and that appointee makes the final decision for the group, so yes, Sovereignty can be extended beyond an individual. Sorry!

Time: One good point but not enough elaboration on it and one bad point.

The good point: Governors. Governors are the State’s Sovereign or “DECIDER”, the CEO of the State Corporation of the State’s economy, and the protector of the inhabitants of those within the Borders of the State he governs. The governor does not have to allow any other foreign agent to have any authority over his own responsibilities, and that includes the foreign agent of the Federal Government.

The bad point: Where in the Constitution body does it even mention the Bill of Rights? Nowhere that I have found directly referring to them. They are separate and independent of the Constitution because the Constitution deals directly with foreign commerce, corporations, and any other organization REGISTERED with the Federal Government.

Are you REGISTERED with the Federal Government? Yep with your registrations of marriage, licenses, social security, and then your birth certificate (not your certificate of live BIRTH). Turn those back in and get out from under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, which enslaves you. Terminate your slavery to those registrations and become a freeman and Sovereign!

Dear David,

You are correct in all respects, but most don’t understand the points you bring forth. { I don’t drive any longer I travel,} I know you will understand.

MERRY CHRISTMAS ~ Peace and Love be with you.

I am sure you did not nor would not sign such a petition.

Interesting to me that one who seems to accept openly the requirements to open said accounts might also be one who would protest at having to show a photo ID in order to vote. Ironic, isn’t it?

Still a sore and angry loser Capitalist at Birth?

I bet Paul didn’t squawk when PLD asked him for pertinent information and the White House can’t be any different. Its not the ID cards that are the problem but the continual lies about bonafide Americans NOT being able to vote and the attempt to keep them from voting. To paraphrase you Paul, Conservatives are against a National ID card yet they demand a Voter ID card.

Eddie says — “No one has come knocking at my door or hacked into my computer”.
Why would they want to arrest you, Eddie? To keep you from aiding and abetting them? Not likely.
Why would they want to hack your computer, Eddie? For useless information?

eddie47d says :”To paraphrase you Paul, Conservatives are against a National ID card yet they demand a Voter ID card.” Once again, idiot eddie is telling me what my positions are, by doing what any good leftist does, just make up stuff to suit his feeble minded agenda! Eddie, I don’t care what you think “Conservatives” are against or for, and please provide demonstrable proof that even ONE legal citizen did not vote because they had to prove who they were. This is just another left wing lie, by those who are deaf, dumb and blind!

Poor Paul always telling others how to think and then resorts to name calling when someone challenges him. I can take it to bad you can’t . The same with you Dave H. the simpleton!

And poor eddah, making his ad Hominems and failing to provide proof for his outrageous claims that voter i.d. laws ACTUALLY caused even one legitimate and legal voter to be denied the vote. The most damnable of lies are those that are not substantiated, and are used as part of a smear campaign. No honor, in you, Eddah!

Are you looking in Karolyn’s Magic Mirror, Eddie?

eddie says “I have signed 52,560 various petitions from a wide array of organizations within the last 2 years.”

eddie, hmmmmm, that equates to 72 petitions a day…I’m not calling you a liar but you may want to go back and double check those figure.

What are you trying to prove this time Jeff H that you can do simple math tricks? Somedays when I don’t have the grandson I can sign 1-200 per day and you thought I only blessed you each day.

So Paul does approve of a National ID card! I would approve of voter ID cards if the Republicans actually gave a dang about the rest of the American citizens. Whether they have a card or not or live in a house or not they are still American citizens and have the right to vote. As in the past the Republicans will never go out of their way to help poorer citizens or old people in nursing homes to get an ID card. That will disenfranchise them and you know it.

eddie, yeah I can do simple math…an average of 72 petitions a day over a two year period…you’re a straight up liar and you’re obviously not very bright if you really think anybody would believe you and your delusional story of 52,560 signed petitions. Not everyone is as gullible as you are.

Yeah, eddie. Since you, obviously have kept a tally of the petitions you’ve signed to have arrived at such a number, how about sharing? I’d be really interested in what petitions you may have signed.

Hmmmm. Have there even been that many petitions out there? I have seen a lot of them over the years, but not nearly that many during my lifetime. Maybe you are talking about some goof-ball liberal group cranking out stupid petitions at such a rate…LOL.

Good catch, JeffH.
It’s telling that Eddie would dance around instead of just admitting his dishonesty.

Dave, LMAO, you know eddie’s been caught in so many lies that he lies about lying.

ROFLAO…1-200 petitions a day when he’s not baby sitting…and pigs can fly too!

Kate8, my thoughts were the same…52,560 is a nice round number. Myself, I might sign a couple of petitions a month if I’m lucky…but 52,560? Not in a lifetime!

JeffH – eddie reminds me of guys I’ve known who just make stuff up all the time and spout off as if it were true. Sometimes I think they actually believe their fantasies.

Trouble is, you never know if you can believe anything they say, so you just blow them off because they’ve proven themselves to have zero credibility.

Kate8, my Congressman, Devin Nunes, wrote a great opinion article that was published in the Fresno Bee today. As you are aware, California has always been the state that has set the tone for the rest of the nation, especially our federal government.

DEVIN NUNES: California’s day of fiscal reckoning near
Friday, Nov. 30, 2012 | 07:46 AM

California was once a model for the nation — a prosperous, well-functioning state that attracted migrants from across America who sought their fortune in gold prospecting, agriculture, startup businesses, high-tech ventures, and other enterprises. Now, the Golden State is becoming a different kind of model — an example of how to ruin one of the world’s most advanced economies and put millions of people on the pathway to poverty.

Read more here: http://www.fresnobee.com/2012/11/30/3084062/devin-nunes-californias-day-of.html#storylink=cpy

Read more here: http://www.fresnobee.com/2012/11/30/3084062/devin-nunes-californias-day-of.html#storylink=cpy

Kate8, After 3+ years of the same crapola out of eddie’s mouth…it’s clear he believes himself.

Kate8, my Congressman, Devin Nunes, wrote a great opinion article that was published in the Fresno Bee today. As you are aware, California has always been the state that has set the tone for the rest of the nation, especially our federal government.

DEVIN NUNES: California’s day of fiscal reckoning near
Friday, Nov. 30, 2012 | 07:46 AM

California was once a model for the nation — a prosperous, well-functioning state that attracted migrants from across America who sought their fortune in gold prospecting, agriculture, startup businesses, high-tech ventures, and other enterprises. Now, the Golden State is becoming a different kind of model — an example of how to ruin one of the world’s most advanced economies and put millions of people on the pathway to poverty.

Read more here: http://www.fresnobee.com/2012/11/30/3084062/devin-nunes-californias-day-of.html#storylink=cpy

This is a repost because the original post contained a “double link” to the article and went into immediate moderation.

[comment has been edited] I just finished signing 308 more between the time you blew me off and the present time. That comes to over 100 in one hour and that is on one petition site. These sites offer thousands of petitions in which to choose from and I even ate lunch while doing it. Some are no more than one sentence and some are several paragraphs long. You are automatically logged in for each petition although 100 is actually a record for me. Usually it is closer to about 70 per hour. The bottom line is that I am getting sick of you calling me a liar when you have no idea of what you are talking about. What did I sign: Stop abuse of animals and stopping Crush videos,Stopping child trafficking,Stop overfishing in our oceans,Arrest poachers of Ivory and the elephant slaughters,Mercury pollution,Labeling of GMO products,several on clean water around the world,supporting safe child births in 3rd world countries,There was even one to “scold” idiot musicians who smash their guitars on stage, many are human rights issue such as false imprisonments mostly in foreign countries, Stopping Internet censorship,some are on supporting religious freedom and freedom from religion,three were on either changing NDAA or doing away with it,one was as simple as supporting the recycling of Christmas cards and another to support honey bee habitat. A handful were political, one was to reprimand Walmart for buying from that factory in Bangladesh that caught fire and killed over a hundred. About 20 were in support of the environment and the destruction of wildlife habitat.

Now its 29,579 petitions signed on one petition site and 21,507 on my other main site. The rest are individual petition requests from organizations I belong to. After recounting you can add 526 to that original number = 53,086.

eddie, just so ya know, after dinner last night I got on the computer and signed 1,368,153 petitions in an hour and a half…all on the same website. My total for the year is now 1,368,161. Here is the website I used http://www.pigscanfly.org/petition

I guess I owe you an apology. Would you care to share the websites you use?

Oh, one more thing eddie…52,560 + 308 = 52,868. Do the math!

If you don’t want to be called a liar then don’t lie…it’s that simple. I really don’t care whether you are tired of it or not…it is what it is and you are what you are. Quit with your lies and I’ll stop calling you a liar.

See the thing is Jeff I don’t lie like you just attempted to do. One Petition site is Change.org and the other is Care2.org and they have thousands of petitions on a variety of subjects. Each day there are hundreds of new ones with most very serious and some downright silly. On Care 2.org you receive points to donate to charity. I’ve donated about 18,000 points and still have another 16,000 for such things as food supplements,seeds,clean water kits and such.

Eddie can’t even read and comprehend our simple posts, and he seriously expects anybody to believe he reads and signs hundreds of petitions a week?

cpa, I was thinking the same thing….

Well, the poser didn’t ramp up IRS agents and operations for nothing…you have to know it’s coming! Probably all of us too, that will speak our minds. You have to be a mindless sheep like eddah, karolyn, and some of the others to not get audited, I’d guess.

Its obvious Paul is up to something because he is way to defensive and threatening. Keep waving that red flag Paul and the bulls may charge.LOL!

Correction, eddah…the BS’ERS might charge. Go read your dailykos and moveon.org and leave the grown ups here to discuss grown up things, you petulant child!

I’ve heard of both of those mentioned but have never read any articles on either. So that doesn’t say much about what you know.

You expect your treasonous attitudes to go unpunished? Naive.

I consider the NWO a foregone conclusion. It’s a reality. You just need to figure out where your place is in the system. The is, in fact, not a coming new world order, but, an existing new world order. The people behind this plan are long suffering, and relentless. They plan ahead for generations, while the average person can’t plan ahead for next week. This is why they are winning, and, in fact, have won.

I can pretty much completely agree with your comment. I still get lots of amusement from the people bitching here about things that are not important, out of their control and completely irrelevant from the bigger picture.

Joe wrote: “I consider the NWO a foregone conclusion. It’s a reality. You just need to figure out where your place is in the system.”

Somehow, I don’t feel that the founding fathers went to all that trouble just so that successive generations would willingly cave in to feudalism while holding the Vaseline jar. The NWO is not a foregone conclusion. It is what happens when people don’t pay attention to their individual and collective spiritual development and allow less scrupled people to revert them to slavery.

Dear Blusterite,

Don’t be so smug about “care packages”. If states leave the Union, there won’t be any Federal Income taxes coming from them. This whole concept of centralization of income tax into the Federal Government was never about helping American people, but, instead, giving international bankers a direct pipeline into the pockets of the Amerian people. Very little of the money collected through income taxes, since 1913, have gone into the pockets of the American people, through services, or otherwise. Instead, it has gone into the vaults of international bankers. So, very little has been left for us, anyway. If any number of states leave the Union, the loss of income would be devastating for those left in the system. This is why Lincoln started the Civil War. It was all about economics and had nothing to do with freeing the slaves. This is why it would happen, again. There would be a new civil war, but this time, bloodier and more violent. For fools so anxious to enter into Civil War II, think about these facts:

The population of the USA in 1860 was 31,443,321, which is about ten time less than the population we have in the USA, today.

The weapons used during the Civil War were not much more technically advanced than what was used during the Revolutionary War and War of 1812, primarily muzzle loading cannons and rifles/muskets. Cardriges didn’t appear on the field of battle until the end of the CW.

So, you have a poplulation ten times our Civil War population, with more advanced weapons at the disposal of our military and civilians. I’d say that, after all is said and done, the death toll of any “revolution” or, so called neo-civil war, would be in the tens of millions, if not more. We could possibly lose over half our population, because our ability to kill, that ugly efficiency, has increased a 1000 fold. So, idiots who casually and glibly talk about “revolution” or a “civil war” need to think about the costs in lives and property. Looking at “The Arab Spring” the return on investment, in lives and material property hasn’t gone so well. On the other hand, if governments become too oppressive, one cannot sit by idly on their hands. There is a limit to what free humans can tolerate. Wisdom is knowing the difference, when to take action or when to hold back. If people choose violence, they have to know that the costs, in the short and long run, will be terrible.

Conversely, federal tax moneys won’t be flowing to them either. Many of the states asking for “secession” (rather, the few infants who are stomping their feet demanding separation from the country) are prone to natural disasters. How many of those do you think they can handle with their own resources. People seem to think that it would be WONDERFUL to not be paying taxes. Well guess what, how are your municipalities going to run when you succeed in seceding? Taxes will have to be replaced by numerous “fees” on services and goods. Do you expect people to volunteer to run your cities and government? Unless you all want to regress to being farmers and hunters, and face it, there isn’t enough wildlife to feed your populations. Are you going to revert to vigilante justice? It might work sense most of you will be armed, but the murder rate is going to be astronomical for a few years, not unlike Mexico, as people band together to form gangs and cartels. And I bet you expect the rest of the US to act like it’s business as usual and just say “hey, it’s fine you left, we don’t hold it against you”. No, there will be tariffs, blockades, and many number of things that will make it extremely difficult to conduct business and travel outside your borders. Good luck…y’all will need it.

Final thought: it seems like many of you are up on your history…..why is it that no one seems to remember “United We Stand, Divided We Fall”?

Donald, All the cash the fed gets comes from the people in the states. Wtihout them, the fed would be nothing. You act as though the states are children, relying on papa Sam to provide for them. The people, who live in the states, support and provide the money for Uncle Sammy to play with. This is what the Federal Government wants people to believe, that they are the keepers of the purse, that they provide sustinance, that they are the source of the well, when in fact, they are not. They, the federal government, not the people, are the parasite. So, if the states and their people are not being bled, they would do just fine. It is possible that they, the states, could leave the union and recharter themselves under the Constitution and Bill of Rights, thereby flushing the toilet of all the polititians presently in power, who have whored themselves out, and have sold out the American people. But, alas, this is a pipe dream, because the NWO is in power and in control and the American people are ignorate and oblivious to this. Our people have become addicted to government largesses for their sustinance and, because of this fact, this system will role on, until it collapses under its own weight of debt. Then, the NWO, who enabled our people to create this mess, will be the heroes who clean it up. Checkmate by the NWO.

” The Federal Governrment would go broke. ” ??? I guess at 16 trillion it could go broker. In fact it will go broker.

Your dream will turn into a nightmare of reality.

The Federal Government has been broke for a long time, Roger, and it hasn’t stopped them yet. As long as they have the Federal Reserve to print counterfeit money, and buy the Federal Government’s debt, the Federal Government can just keep on trucking. That is, at least until they have used up the cash accounts of Mom and Pop and their fixed incomes.

United we stand, divided we fall. The first huge natural disaster and all would be screaming for the federal gov. to help. YOU know not what you wish for. Your taxes do not just go to help the unfortunate, as many of the right wingers seem to concentrate on, the trillions just spent on two wars was to protect your rear end also. Defense is a huge chunk of our taxes. Consider what we pay individually, it is very little when you think about the protection we all have. We are not talking about an old fashion army with machine guns, we are talking nuclear weapons, planes, nuclear submarines and drones. Let’s see those states on their own come up with that kind of protection for themselves. Get real! People need to stop complaining and stop listening to the doom and gloom phrophecy the right wing thrives on. If you did not lose your freedom, and no one did, during Obama’s first term, you can expect to keep it during his second. The only evil in him is the made up lies coming from ignorance on the right. Stop believing the crap and turn off the likes of Limbaugh and Fox News. They all have a political agenda.
What is the big deal about raising taxes on the wealthy anyway? It has been done dozens of times by past Presidents and the country has not gone to the dark side. Obama just wants to raise them to the level they were when Clinton was President. We are talking a couple of percents. They get a boat load of tax breaks anyway so it will not hurt them. Talk about corporate welfare that they conveniently ignore when they are discussing taking away from social. security and Medicare. The middle class should be so lucky.

Anton Scalia, 2006: “I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court,” Scalia wrote. “To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede.”

Good points. I agree, Roger. I live in Florida. And Chip brings out good points but succession is the only way to go, now. The federal government is completely out of control. And it doesn’t matter which party occupies Congress or the White House or even the Supreme Court. They all favor the New World Order. Succession is the ONLY answer, now. I was born in 1949 and I have never seen the federal government get any better. It just gets worse and worse in Washington D.C. The federal government is an out of control monster. We must stop feeding the monster. Succession is a great way to do that.

Yo’re right about that!

You are correct Vigilant as Deerinwater reiterated below at 9:26 am.

Many of the strongest movements for secession came from Red States that actually take in more Federal funds than they pay out which belies your fiscal arguement. All military bases in a State to secede would cease to exist, it’s citizens would be required to give up their passports and create their own new ones. Travel for them into the US would be restricted. And trade would be cut off. How would it affect Texas if the Pipeline of oiul from other States was ended. Their refineries would be replaced by new ones elsewhere and they would lose much of their income. Also as far as the Texas standard of living, it has the highest level of uninsured citizens in any State and with NO military, tanks, planes, missles, etc they could easily be come an annex of Mexico.

Mary Mary quite contrary…..???
We are safe from whom?

I like the idea and think that Texas is more than capable of fending for itself. Once the proper reforms were made those who just want to live off the government, finding out that they will not be able to do that in Texas, they will move and probably go to California. I think the only hope is to get 17 states not cast votes in the electoral college. That would mean a Republican President and a Democratic Vice President. Not sure who to contact in Texas to stop them from voting.

The issue of these people signing these petitions is interesting to me. Part of me wants to be part of the protest and sign, and the other side of me understands the possible newly expanded monitoring of the Government and to be cautious. As Chip Wood points out here there were points in our history like the election of LBJ and his actions that create such a ripple effect it changes things in a big way for a long time. I would add the Woodrow Wilson era when we started the Federal Reserve and the changes in the Constitution pushed forward by the Progressives like the Senators elected independently which turned our Republic into more of a democracy mob. States used to hold more power and that was a major shift in power to Central Planning. But one could argue Lincoln was the beginning of the shift to Central Planning. I hate the direction of this Country and how most of the sheeple really don’t educate themselves to what is happening or maybe I should give up my feelings of Liberty and feel assured the Government will always be there to make my life complete like the majority does, not likely. What is really bad about this country is I would be gone to someplace like Chile or ??? just to set anchor for my son if needed but our very imposing laws of leaving and the real cost of doing that(getting a foreign passport) makes it much more difficult to leave the USA than say the UK or France. Even banking outside our boarders has become difficult for expats so succession becomes a more interesting option.

@Mary. If tax increases to Clinton era are not a big deal then I would accept those tax increases as long as the federal spending for 2013 also is capped at the level of 1998. I bet the same people that think the Clinton tax level is good would say that the Clinton spending level is bad. Please get real.

What we actually need is a coup. Our democracy is a failure

We are not, nor have we ever been a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic. In a Republic, the sovereignty resides with the people themselves. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives when solving a problem. The people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government is a servant of the people, and obliged to its owner – “We the People”. Many politicians have lost sight of that fact.

A Constitutional Republic has similarities to democracy in that it uses democratic processes to elect representatives, etc. The difference is that a Constitutional Republic has a Constitution is the blueprint for, and defines thelimits the powers of the government. It creates the government structure; puts checks on its power and balances power between the different branches.

Each state has its own government also: Article IV Section 4 of the Constitution states: “The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion . . . .

Which ever state can pull this off is the state I am moving too.

Mary says — “United we stand, divided we fall. The first huge natural disaster and all would be screaming for the federal gov. to help. YOU know not what you wish for. Your taxes do not just go to help the unfortunate, as many of the right wingers seem to concentrate on, the trillions just spent on two wars was to protect your rear end also”.
United behind who, Mary? I say you should unite with us.
We’ll be screaming for help from the Government? Isn’t that just a bit presumptuous of you, Mary?
We do not know what we wish for, Mary? I know what I wish for — Freedom — Freedom from Progressives like yourself who think they know what’s best for the rest of us and who think our wallets are their’s to pillage.
Trillions were spent to protect our rear ends? From what, Mary — The enemies that our Bankers and Military Industrial Complex are making for us while they fatten their coffers?
Anybody, who thinks they are fighting for our Freedom, needs to get educated. Start here:
http://library.mises.org/books/John%20V%20Denson/A%20Century%20of%20War%20Lincoln,%20Wilson%20and%20Roosevelt.pdf

Davy

You better leave the country then as what you seek is not and will not be available to you here. Your wishing for the impossible but then you see everything through rose colored glasses which distorts all you see.

I must agree with you Roger W. It is my belief that my state, Texas, will have to secede sooner or later, because the U.S. Federal government is bankrupt. The only way out for them now to pay off their creditors is to confiscate all of the citizenry’s assets including land and mineral rights as payment for the note. The bill is coming due soon and it won’t be pretty.

Mary says:
“United we stand, divided we fall.”

United under the yoke of slavery is not likely a better option then divided and free.

Well stated KB. The missing ingredient here is finding a leader with the influence to take this action forward. A ldr. that American patriots would follow. The likes of Col. West maybe? Or Col. Shaffer or North?? Someone that has the backing of the military and the respect of the citizenry. Once that happens, there is enough anger amongst those real Americans to march on the WH. demanding that charges be filed and arrests made. And it must be done soon as the country is losing all rights of Free Speech fast!

If the Constitution and the people were ignored all these years you believe you will be listened to now? What convincing argument will you be able to give?

Thank you, KB.

very good – this is great – do we have political type to hold up is there some way we the people arrest these bums

sounds great to me we seceded from england

KB says — “not one “representative” including Ron Paul, has called for their arrest”.
That’s because Ron Paul knows it would be like asking the Crips to turn over their Leaders to the Government.

Kansas,

EXACTLY! There are no “checks and balances” to the power of the Feds.
That power is growing immensely by the day. There is no Rule of Law! There is only obamalaw! All of government stands paralyzed and there is no resistence. Who will take action….

What ???? Obama’s Assassination List? you are really jumping off the deep end. The same was said about Clinton during the Whitewater fiasco, by the fools on the right Look back and see for yourself. All were a bunch of lies and the reason nothing is done is THEY ARE LIES AND NO PROOF CAN BE FOUND TO SUSTANTIATE THESE CONSPIRACIES. The CIA. FBI and other intelligence agencies are involved in many things and one is covert operations that have always been a part of keeping this country safe. Why do people think they have the right to know classified information? They do not. Don’t you find it a bit odd that only conspiracies seem to blow up to these proportions when the Democrats are in office?. There has never been anything in the Democratic Administrations as conspiratory as the Bush, Cheney, Rusmsfeld charade that got us into Iraq, where thousands of Americans were killed, not just four. If that did not destroy America, then nothing can. Where were the almighty, right winger, tea party vigilante, groups marching on Washington screaming to take back “their country”then? No where to be seen or heard, only when a Black man became President. We all know what thay says about these people.

Mary – funny libs didn’t uphold and support Alan Keyes when he ran for president? He is educated, liberty minded and black? Where were you guys???

So intelligently put Mr. Kansas Bright, I concur , every thing you wrote is the way we should all feel. With good people like you who seem to know whats really going on thank you fore you commitment and telling it like it is.
Also I would like to tell Pam S. That she Is also wright in the fact that we do have the right to secede. However that does not mean we will, we are all trying to make a point that we are not standing with this President and we want action Now! Or secession could be an alternative for some states. We are all disgusted with how our government has run amuck , but now, more than ever we need to stick together. We need to Impeach This Impostor and Back Stabbing President who is not an American.

I agree to this being well stated. You referred to a re-establishment of a governing body as is stated in the original Declaration of Independence, but here is the rub. Education of the people must be implemented, and study of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence has been darn near literally taken out of the curriculum of most schools, except the colleges and universities, somewhat.

Re-education of the people must be reinstated and the people must learn the lawful methods of bringing this corruption back under control. I mention lawful because legal is the interpretation of the lawful wording.

Once you allow ANY legalization of any law then you allow the changing of the law as it is written in the first place. Interpretation inserts into the law personal feelings and changes the law, as it was written. Even if the law is written vaguely then it MUST be enforced vaguely. Any specification through interpretation brings things to the table that were not written into it from the first. This is considered as taking the consideration of the parties out of the equation of the law and allowing outsiders of that law or contract to set the terms and not signing to it. Courtroom judges are now allowing the interpretation to change the law from the bench of which they have no authority. These judges are also bringing enforcement into the changes they have made. That is called legislating from the bench. A judge was never given that authority.

Even a well informed jury could only nullify laws on the books and force those laws to be reviewed by the legislators and be corrected or repealed. Nullification of laws literally takes the law and makes it unenforceable until it is changed or abolished.

Most people are uneducated when it comes to the definitions of lawful and legal. There is a huge difference in those definitions. Lawful is anything written down and recorded, whether it is specific or not. Legal is the interpretation of what is written and recorded. Do you have a right to determine what is legal? Not in my book, as the legal profession claims to have the authority to determine that, and they do their best to enforce that too.

How many of the American people are a signed member of the legal profession? Not that many. So, if you are not signed up and a paid member of that society, do you have a right to say anything about what goes on in that society? NO! That society is a closed society and is under contract.

Laws, statutes, ordinances, and the like are all contracts. Are you directly signed into that contract? More than likely not. Oh you have representation, Did you vote for that representative? If you did not, then is that person your representative? Only if you accept them as such and acquiesce to their authority. You can deny acquiescence if you rebel. If you do not rebel and deny it, then you are FORCED to accept it. That is NOT what this country was built on. If you are not signed directly to a law, are you bound by it? Only if you acquiesce it and follow it.

Both KB and the author of this editorial brought up the Constitution. The Constitution is a Commerce Treaty with any foreign empire, giving rules for conducting foreign commerce. The Bill of Rights are the first ten Amendments to that Constitution. Where in the body of the Constitution are those rights stated? Nowhere. The Bill of Rights are a separate system outside the Constitution directly related to the people themselves individually, not collectively, as most people think or believe.

The right to secede is covered under the 1st Amendment on the right of the people to petition and to peaceably assemble as a group. That group, once they establish their rules for conduct, have officially created a new society or empire. The denial of creating an empire outside of or within the Federal jurisdiction was limited to those Corporations and organizations REGISTERED with the Federal authority under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. I challenge any registered corporation or organization to literally sit up on their shelves, without human manipulation and deny a human being of their rights. Those corporations and organizations can not do that WITHOUT manipulation of a human being, because they are nothing more than contracts written down on a piece of dead wood.

Every individual was registered with the Federal Authority on the day they were born, and every American has the right to turn that registration back in to the Federal Authority or even the State Authority and say “I QUIT”. That will take you out from under the acquiescence of the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. This is where secession is saying to the the Federal Authority directly “I QUIT”. BUT it must not stop there. Secession requires the people tired of being under the Commerce Clause to quit even under State registration too.

Education of the people needs to be reinstalled to better inform them of what they can or should do and stop being led around by the ring in their nose (or on their fingers – Marriage is also a registration) by those who claim the authority over all others. Every person who was born on the land of this country was born an American. Every American born within a State of the Union was a resident of that State 30-60 days after their registration cleared the books of the State. Those Americans are never recognized by the State until a set period of time has past in residency. You can lose your residency, if you move out of the state and do not retain lawful land holdings within that state. To regain your residency, if you are not a land holder, you must reside in that state up to 90 days to be recognized and then register as such.

I believe it is time for the American people to wake up and become more educated and to do more things independently rather than being led around by the rings in their noses.

Kansas – Excellent post.

The thing is, petitioning the WH is a symbolic gesture only. It’s asking parasites to free their host…ain’t gonna happen. They depend on the states for their survival.

In the first place, the WH doesn’t have the authority to grant such a petition. And I don’t care what Scalia or any other corporate judge rules…any state can assert its right to secede through its legislature. Each state was established as free and sovereign of the federal government. The fact that a pack of corporate wolves has lured them into submission through funding (which was extracted from the states in the first place)…well, it’s time to re-declare their sovereignty.

Anyway, I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t the WH to started these petitions to gauge the strength of the opposition, and to get their names and info. It was too well organized right after Obama offered the “petition” site. Despots do deceptive things to draw out their enemies so they know who to eliminate (sorry, Mary, but communists always do this when they take control of a country. Just look at how many times it’s already been done in just the last century.)

The other thing is, Obama has plans to break the USA up into regions. This also gives a good idea of how receptive people would be to the dissolution of our nation. Unless the corporate Beast is beheaded, just how long does anyone think any state struggling to get back order would last against their armies and their power? It’s not like the Feds are going to just sit back and watch people pull out. It’s total control they want, and I can’t help but think that this is all being orchestrated just like everything else.

Exactly!
“Obama has plans to break the USA up into regions.”

This is UN’s Agenda 21 in action. In San Francisco they just finished a high rise of 200 Sqare foot sized apartments to stack people into. Remember they must get us out of the way so that the UN will have easy access to steal America’s natural resources. But also remember that many states have banned Agenda 21.

What most people do not realize is that when we talk of individual freedom, it is MUCH different then the “freedom” the progressives speak of.

The progressives want to “free” up the people from ever having to make another decision on their own on anything: From where they will live, what they will be allowed to eat, when they will be allowed to eat it, when they will be allowed to sleep and how many hours of sleep they will get, they will NOT be allowed to own anything (cars, homes, businesses, even the cloths on your back will be supplied to you) – that is independent decision making and they are working to free everyone from that burden, who and IF they will be allowed to date, if they will be allowed to “breed” and with whom, etc. They want to “FREE” everyone from the burdens of every having to make a decision in everyday life, instead they will decide everything to all. it won’t be that hard once they have dicided where each person will be assigned and to what duties. Then the “overseer” will make sure that they do as told.

To me, that is slavery, not freedom.

Kansas – Yes…; hence, their assertion that “war is peace, slavery is freedom…”

Just like their reinterpretation of “freedom of religion” as “freedom from religion”, meaning that no one has the right to believe anything except what is dictated by government…
And speech is only free as long as it is in line with liberal-speak…

Mary says — “What ???? Obama’s Assassination List? you are really jumping off the deep end”.
More nonsense from Mary.
Do you think, Mary, that they will advertise their hit list in the Sunday Times? Did Stalin? Did Hitler? Did Mao?
Here’s what we do know:
http://rt.com/usa/news/drone-strike-obama-casualties-604/

Oh yeah — They’re “terrorists”. How convenient.

Mary says — “The same was said about Clinton during the Whitewater fiasco, by the fools on the right Look back and see for yourself”.
Suspicious deaths surrounding Bill Clinton:
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/death.html

Coincidence?

More about unusual deaths surrounding the Clinton administration:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=203767&mesg_id=206158

We’re no longer a constitutional republic Kansas, we are becoming a rule by mob.

“Fast and Furious”

Get over yourself. Even Issa admitted that neither the White House or the Justice Department knew about it.

It is easily verifiable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc&feature=player_embedded#
Project Gun Runner (Fast and Furious) was launched under the orders of President Barack Obama with the knowledge of Attorney General Eric Holder. Deputy Attorney General David Ogden announced the Obama Administration’s new and aggressive ‘comprehensive plan’ on March, 24, 2009. The plan was aimed at disrupting gun trafficking between the United States and Mexico.
The first words are: “The president has directed us to…”
Funding attempt: H.R.495 Southwest Border Violence Reduction Act of 2009 failed.
H.R.1 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 made it.

Holder gave a speech at the arms trafficking conference in Cuernavaca, Mexico, on April 2, 2009, in which he boasted about Operation ‘Gunrunner” and told Mexican authorities of everything he was doing to insure its success.

In Cuernavaca, Holder not only acknowledged the program, he bragged that he was in the process of expanding it:

“Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion. DHS is making similar commitments, as Secretary Napolitano will detail.”

tlgeer says about Fast & Furious “Even Issa admitted that neither the White House or the Justice Department knew about it.” PROOF?

What Issa admitted was that Congress has found no evidence that President Barack Obama or anyone at the White House had participated in a cover-up involving the Fast and Furious scandal.

(TheHill.com June 27, 2012) In a seven-page letter to the president, the chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee leveled his most direct allegations yet at Obama just two days ahead of a full House vote on whether to place Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for failing to respond to a subpoena.

“Either you or your most senior advisers were involved in managing Operation Fast and Furious and the fallout from it, including the false Feb. 4, 2011 letter provided by the attorney general to the committee,” Issa wrote to Obama. “Or, you are asserting a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation.”

You are aware that Holder is the AG in The Justice Department.

Holder was charged with “contempt”…Issa charged that Holder is so “inept that he is dangerous.”…Issa further attacked Holder, saying, “If we assume for a moment that he didn’t know, the question is: Is he competent?”

The “Definition Of Lying Depends On What Your State Of Mind Is”

Kansas Bright wrote: “They are BOUND by their Oath to support the Constitution, and should they abrogate their Oath by their acts or inaction, are subject to charges of impeachment and censure.”

You had also stated that the oath was Article VI, Sec 1, Clause 4, but I am unfamiliar with what you were referring to. Section 1 of Article VI refers to debts, Sec 2 refers to our being bound to treaties we enter into, and Sec 3 refers to Oaths and Affirmations. ….. But that is within the rules of the de jure government; the one our forefathers set up for us so long ago. What presidents and legislators have been doing behind our backs is operating under the pretext of the de jure government of the “united States of America”, while in practice, they have operated under the corporate name of the “United States of America” and taking their marching orders from the banks. Our government has been operating under a ruse for over 150 years, with the elected officials going along to get along, with the the increasingly and intentionally dumbed down population understand less and less of the truth of the treason and the theft of our nation.

Hillary and Obama have been so busy signing us up to the UN’s Agenda21 mandates that the average citizen just thinks this is normal business for our leaders. It isn’t. The problem goes way back to that problematic stage in our US history, when the legislature originally ratified what was to become the Act of 1871. This act and it’s surreptitious evil cousin, the 14th Amendment, had the effect of acknowledging the country’s debt to the Rothschild family for its loans during the war. What the Rothschilds did, not unlike their typically sleazy M.O. that they used during the Battle of Waterloo to gain control of the entire finances of London, was to encourage loans to BOTH the North and the South, all the while knowing they would collect either way.

With the banker promoted passage of the 14th Amendment, our citizenship was then bound through DC in lieu of the several states, and we see the vestiges of that treason in our current de facto government which has attempted to overtake our de jure government set up by and for its sovereign citizens. When you see the gold Admiralty fringe on the American flag, the person in front of it is operating within the parameters of the de facto government, not the de jure government. That is why you will never see Obama or any of them with the real red, white, and blue.

But back to Hillary and Obama (and Bush41, Clinton, and Bush the Idiot); they’ve all known about this. Presidents have known about this for over 1-1/2 centuries and have only mentioned the debt; not how it was thrust on us or even helping to further educate the population about it.

When it all comes out in the wash, the legislators who have signed us onto this mess have done so out of bad faith; like a parent who would willingly prostitute their own child. As I see it, any deal made in bad faith becomes null and void, thus, we don’t owe those bastards anything; not anymore. Let those parasites go out and actually make a living for a change.

Anyway, Kansas Bright, nice posts. Keep up the good work.

Clause 2 of Article VI of the ORIGINAL Constitution, not the one they have been re writing.

ALERT! ALERT! JeffH, DaveH, and all Patriots:

This just in from occupycorporatism.com:

CIA SPONSORED TROLLS MONITOR INTERNET AND INTERACT WITH USERS TO DISCREDIT FACTUAL INFORMATION.

The FBI and the CIA are using trools to monitor ocial media and interact with users to discredit information diseminated on the web.

The CIA provides training videos to new recruits on how to troll the internet. Once a target is locked in, the open-source information is obtained on the individual and they use any angle to discredit them in a public forum on social media sites and other sites. Software is used to sift through the mountians of users … and the open source center is where recruits and personnel are USED BY THE GOVERNMENT to troll and analyze websites for information pertinent to the objective the the US government. This means discrediting targets on certain websites.

The also, as a tactic, use a “codename” when they want to discredit a topic, that goes out to all trolls to go on the attack.
——————————-

I always wondered about some of the names that seem to carry a meaning.

This is all being revealed now, that eddie, smilee, mark, jeff, and all the rest (new ones pop up every day, and they use multiple names to look like there are many of them), are IN FACT, PAID TROLLS WHO ARE COLLECTING DATA ON THOSE OF US WHO POST HERE TO COLLECT DATA ON US FOR THE GOVERNMENT.

I say WE KICK THEM OUT. If the site is unwilling to remove this threat, we can either all stop posting, or we can, at least, stop responding to them AT ALL. Anyone who thinks they can “reason with them” is not understanding who they are. They must be weeded out, because they are committing treachery on their fellow Americans.

Kate8, no surprise here.

Kate8,GREAT FIND…although I doubt very seriously that most of those you named are paid trolls…I have no doubt that the likes of Right Brain(less), GALT, Falsy, Loechner and D67 and maybe a few I may have missed are, in fact, paid trolls with only one purpose.

I read the article and this describes to a tee the pointed attacks that have been taking place against Mr. Livingston and his staff, DaveH, Jay and myself. As annoying as they are, I really don’t think they have been effective to the seasoned PLD participants and I surely know they aren’t affecting my blood pressure…at all.

I think I can say that they have become far more aggravated and agitated with us for not playing their game by their rules and for recognizing that they are “paid trolls”.

This is what was really telling in the article titled: CIA-Sponsored Trolls Monitor Internet & Interact With Users to Discredit Factual Information
http://occupycorporatism.com/cia-sponsored-trolls-monitor-internet-interact-with-users-to-discredit-factual-information/

“According to Lynnae Williams, former CIA clandestine service trainee and DIA analyst,the FBI and CIA use trolls to monitor social media and interact with users to discredit information disseminated on the web. Williams explains that the CIA provides training videos to new recruits on how to troll the internet. Once a target is locked-in, all open source information is obtained on the individual, and then any angle to discredit them in public forum is used on social media sites.”

Mary writes:
“No where to be seen or heard, only when a Black man became President.”

Leave it to a liberal to play the race card. But since you did I must ask. Did recounts find that Alan Keyes won? I thought obama won.

Kate8,
For Heavens’ sake, is everything new or different a conspiracy in your eyes? San Francisco is growing at an unheard of pace. The job market is jumping and the cost of housing, already among the highest in the nation is following suit. According to SFGATE, studio apartments now average $2,075, up 16.5 percent in a year.
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Rental-competition-fierce-in-S-F-s-market-3543722.php#ixzz2Du9Re9Ms

Those 200 sq. ft. apartments you mentioned are as big a story in San Francisco as anywhere, except Japan where this solution has been long accepted. Other nations may be surprised, but not shocked or suspicious. The average home built in the U.S. since 2003 is aprox. 2300 sq.ft. In France it’s 1216, Spain 1044 and in the U.K. that number is 880 sq.ft. We, as Americans are used to living in an abundance of space. When a friend and former co-worker of my wife was visiting from the Republic of Georgia (no, Georgia did not secede, this is part of the former Soviet Union) he saw our side porch and asked “who lives in that part of the building? He was shocked to hear that 3 of us lived in such opulence (2,500 sq.ft.)

I would never want to live in a 200 sq.ft. apartment. Neither would I want to spend the night in one of Japan’s capsule hotels, (sleeping bays measuring 6.5ft x 3.3ft x 4ft !) but economy drives us to do many strange things, including spending a year or two in a 9×24 foot apartment, even without Government force. If you were a young single looking for space in San Francisco, you might just understand.

You have never read Agenda 21. Yes other countries do many things we here in the USA do not do.

Agenda 21 is a plan to implement controls on how to govern the populous and make decisions for the people of the USA and the world through actions taken by the UN. Their focus is on the global impact of use of land, education and depopulation through control measures including: eliminating personal property rights, private education (including home schooling) and eugenics (forced sterility) in order to have organized global harvesting of the USA (and the planet) under UN control.

The UN is planning to take over conservation and management of America’s resources for their developmental purposes. By abolishing personal property rights, the demise of rural area living, removal of personal ownership of natural resource; this will take away the power from individuals and place it firmly in the hands of the governments who have agreed to UN control – that would be “our” federal government.

It is being done here through legislation, rules, regulations, zoning, planning and regional planning; things that impact individuals property rights through the use of ICLEI programs. Some other private organizations in league with ICLEI are: the National Governors Association, National League of Cities, International City/County Management Group, American Planning Group, etc.

They are implementing rules and regulations throughout the States, regions, and communities through zoning, planning and regional planning; things that impact our property rights. Smart Meters and the newer railroads planned are some of the things planned to further Agenda 21 plnas here in the USA.

President Obama supports the UN’s Agenda 21 initiative, as did Romney. Presidents Bush, Clinton, and Obama worked to implement United Nations Agenda 21. Under the guise of world sustainability, the plan establishes rules to bypass Congress nationally and the American people locally.

Agenda 21 will end individual property ownership in the USA. No one is to be allowed to live in rural areas, nor own any type of natural resource. All people will be moved to “communities” to live (stack’em and cram’em highrise housing; leaving and creating more unpopulated areas for easier UN theft of USA’s natural resources, etc.

There will be no more owning property to raise animals, hay, food, etc. Our children will no longer have the family property to raise their animals, gardens for FFA, or 4-H, horse shows, or any other activity that requires the individual use of property. We get to “contribute” it to the community.

There will be “community gardens” as shown in Obama’s “Julia”. She gets to retire to work in the “community garden”. NOT her own garden, but the community garden.

In Obama’s and the UN’s eyes – The community good is everything (think ant farm). Individual rights, wants, property ownership, needs must be changed to community needs. Everyone will work for the community good; no more individual rights, cars, owning your own things, gardens, farms, koi ponds, horseback riding, etc. No individual business ownership as the UN corporations will handle all of that.

States are fighting Agenda 21. As they become aware of the underlying meaning behind Agenda 21, they are putting in place legislation to prevent this takeover of our rights as Americans by the international UN. States are banning UN Agenda 21 polices. We need to get all the states to ban it.

Legislation will prevent local, county and state governments from adopting the (ICLEI) programs. “I know it is totally against our Constitution from reading the U.N. biodiversity assessment,” New Hampshire, Rep. Anne Cartwright (R), sponsered banning of Agenda 21 bill. “It’s through local initiative that it is being implemented in bits and pieces to erode our property rights.”

Alabama Senate Bill (SB) 477, known as the “Due Process for Property Rights” Act,was the first state to ban UN’s Agenda 21.

Tennessee also adopted a resolution slamming the UN scheme as “insidious” and “socialist.” “This UN Agenda 21 plan of radical so-called ‘sustainable development’ views the American way of life of private property ownership, single-family homes, private car ownership and individual travel choices, and privately owned farms as destructive to the environment,” the resolution explains. “We hereby endorse rejection of its radical policies and rejection of any grant monies attached to it.”

The Republican National Committee officially opposes UN Agenda 21 in a resolution adopted January, 2012, “The United Nations Agenda 21 is a comprehensive plan of extreme environmentalism, social engineering, and global political control,” The resolution calls Agenda 21 a socialist and communist redistribution of wealth to advance the UN vision of “social justice.” A group of Democrats also oppose Agenda 21.

Florida, legislation abolished the State Department of Community Affairs that utilized plans stipulating where development could and could not occur based on their guidelines of: “smart growth”, “compact development”, “livability”, “sustainability”

Other organizations that also battle Agenda 21 include the Tea Party, The John Birch Society, Americans for Prosperity, The American Policy Center and libertarians. Republicans in North Carolina, Kansas, Texas, Arkansas and Louisiana are also working on anti-Agenda 21 legislation.

I am sorry, but I am not for anything that takes away our right to own property, or anything else, and will dictate to us the way we will live our lives in our country.

The latest way our population grows is by immigration and illegal immigration, not birth rate. In the USA the way to stop population growth is to limit immigration at this time, and to STOP all illegal immigration as those in “our” federal and some of those in our state governments know.

Instead, putting Agenda 21 into action here within our country is another part of putting us under a world government that dictates to us how WE will live in OUR country. If you want that please immigrate to one of the nations – and there are tons of them – who have that ‘lifestyle”. There has ONLY been 3 who recognize individuals have natural rights in the known history of mankind INCLUDING the USA.

The legitmate government of the USA is rare and valuable, and I refuse to let the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party (the one that implemented the takeover of Germany’s legitimate constitutional government from within) do to the USA what it did to Germany.

If you think that is not happening, where do you think indefinite detention, pre crime, dispearing people, putting police and military into “psyche” hospitals for not agreeing with Obama (probably Bush also – but no prroof of that at this moment) .. here read this:
“Uncontrolled search and seizure is one of the first and most effective weapons in the arsenal of every arbitrary government. Among deprivations of rights, none is so effective in cowing a population, crushing the spirit of the individual and putting terror in every heart.” Justice Robert Jackson, Chief U.S. Prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials

Read his Opening Statement for the Nuremberg Trials to get a quick education.

Kansas Bright wrote: “Under the guise of world sustainability, the plan [Agenda21] establishes rules to bypass Congress nationally and the American people locally.”

Your explanation was flawless. Unfortunately, there are too many Romney and Obama supporters who cannot fathom the depth of the traitorous action it would take to accomplish such a plan, over such a long period of time, and by so many public officials who had sworn an oath to serve. They can’t wrap their brain around it, so therefore it must not exist.

Nice post.

And a very astute observation BR. Succinct and extremely descriptive. Nice.

Thank you. It is a tough fight for all of us. All of us will be greatly hurt by Agenda 21, though I feel the ones who will be hurt most by this underhanded corrupt action are those who are already fighting to live, eat, get jobs, etc. I believe they were put into that position because it is much harder to fight political actions when you are fighting to survive. But that is my OPINION.

KB wrote: “I believe they were put into that position because it is much harder to fight political actions when you are fighting to survive. But that is my OPINION.”

Not just opinion, KB, that was always part of their game plan; to further subjugate the free members of our culture so that they became ever more reliant on the federal system. That system was a Trojan Horse to keep citizens busy thinking they were free, while the elites regained control of all aspects of the national and world economies.

It was never that our system of federal government was bad or ill-conceived; it was just that any system of government was doomed to fail once it became a corrupt government. Whether it be socialism, communism, democracy, dictatorship, monarchy, plutocracy, whatever; every form of government can work wonderfully if the end result is the betterment of the people themselves. The problem, quite the opposite, is that they all fail when the focus becomes the government itself and the individual is left in the dust.

Oh NO! The rich are the GOOD guys. All the jealous people who envy their “success”, they are the enemy.

Yes, it’s true. The NWO is alive, well and in control of us. Everything said about it is true.

Beautifully said Kansas bright! These govt officials need to be made accountable for the level of corruption that they’ve brought upon the govt of our country. they all need to be fired, or thrown in prison for the treasonous, indirectly murderous, thieving, scandalous, and corrupt type of people they are that now inhabit ( and have for some time ) our highest govt positions. WHY IS NO ONE CALLING FOR THESE PEOPLE TO BE MADE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS? THESE TERMS ” STONEWALLING ,” and ” EXECUTIVE PRIVELEDGE ” SHOULD EARN THE PERSON CLAIMING ITS POWERS A FAST TRACK TRIP STRAIGHT TO A PRISON CELL.

Andrew wrote: “These govt officials need to be made accountable for the level of corruption that they’ve brought upon the govt of our country. they all need to be fired, or thrown in prison for the treasonous, indirectly murderous, thieving, scandalous, and corrupt type of people they are that now inhabit ( and have for some time ) our highest govt positions.”

With the recent passing of Rep. Jack Brooks (TX), many of you may remember who it was that so insistently stifled Brooks’ questioning about Oliver North’s possible involvement with the secret “Continuity of Government” (COG) program under FEMA; none other than WWII veteran and Purple Heart recipient, Hawaii Senator Daniel Inouye.

Now, when you can’t trust your own Purple Heart people to tell the truth to the people, what the hell is going on with the loyalties in Washington? COG was sold to the US taxpayers during the Carter Administration as a legitimate program to keep the country running in a state of disaster, yet the closet globalists of that time, spearheaded by the likes of Rockefeller and Kissinger, and dutifully carried out by ruthless scum like Cheney, Bush41, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz; these were the traitors who helped funnel legitimate tax dollars to be secretly used for nefarious schemes aimed at world domination and the intentional undermining of the US Constitution. I’m of the understanding that the vast majority of this took place under Reagan’s nose, so if someone has information otherwise, please let us all know. My point was that this was fermenting behind Reagan’s back until Bush Sr. got into the White House and since then, EVERY president has been bought and paid for.

Leavenworth would be too nice for these people.

BR!
When you’re right, you don’t mess around. Well informed, you are.

I understand how things could have happened “under Reagan’s nose.” It is now known he was suffering from Alzheimer’s AND Dementia the last 18 months he was in office, and possibly longer. In other words, his mind was already gone.

Texas never gave up their right to tell the fed to “shove it.”

Yeah, that worked out really well for them in 1861.

Peter, Sorry, but that’s a myth. In any event, you should familiarize yourself with the Supreme Court case “Texas v. White” , 74 U.S. 700 (1869). SCOTUS has spoken on the constitutionality of Texas (or any state) seceding.

I’ve recently read not only the Constitution of the State of Texas, but several others and have learned that contrary to belief, Texas is not the only state that reserves the right to secession. Others include Arkansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Maryland. The state constitutions of both North and South Carolina, however, forbid it.

amusedinil – That kind of roll-over attitude is exactly a big part of our problem. People have become to easily cowed by “decisions” rendered by our courts.

The SCOTUS was never meant to legislate from the bench, nor to be the Supreme Authority. It was meant to decide the constitutionality of laws only, and has no power of enforcement. Only Congress has power to legislate, and they, too, are limited by the powers enumerated in the Constitution. (However, it seems that the executive branch has usurped ALL power, and now both other branches bow to the POTUS…a sure sign that they no longer bear any allegiance to the Constitution.)

I don’t care what the SCOTUS rules, it is an opinion only. These are men who often get it wrong, and are subject to corruption (duh!). When the government no longer follows the Supreme Law of the Land, at the consent of the governed, then we have the right not to comply with their overstep. It is precisely this indoctrination borne by our citizenry that we must ALWAYS bow to the edicts from DC that has gotten us into this mess.

I say to all people of America: GROW THE HECK UP AND GET A SPINE. Assert your natural rights as human beings which no other humans have the right to take from you. Stand up and declare that our children shall not be enslaved, that we are free and sovereign, and that no man or group of men have the authority to set themselves above us.

What would happen if you stood up and declared yourself supreme authority over the people in your neighborhood? Would they take it? I surely doubt it.

These idiots in DC have gotten the notion that they can RULE over us. And there are even bigger bullies ruling over them, giving them the illusion that they are, somehow, above the rest of us. THEY AREN’T. But unless we are willing to declare ourselves outside of their jurisdiction…, well, we do, then, deserve what we get.

Remember, there are a lot more of us than there are of them. And the fear us. You can be sure that they have plans to neutralize the threat that we are to them. It is THEY who have declared war on US, and we do have the natural right to defend ourselves.

Why would they not want us to secede? We would take away much of the opposition to Socialism/Fascism with us and they would be free to then form their utopian Socialist/Fascist gov’t. If Texas were established as a free state people would flee the Socialist States of America so fast there would be traffic jams.

freePatriot: You are forgetting about all the citizens of Texas who don’t want to secede. My bet is that they are in the majority.

Kate8, give these wimps he11! Really like to see a gal with a pair! (That is a compliment.)

Kate8 writes:
“When the government no longer follows the Supreme Law of the Land, at the consent of the governed, then we have the right not to comply with their overstep.”

Not just the right but also the DUTY to correct the error of the employees (Government agents)

The Soap box is under constant attack
The Ballot box is likely compromised
The Jury box has been under attack for centuries (fija.org)
The Ammo box is under attack and has been since 1934 and before.

The People are running dangerously low on peaceful options

Peter,
“Texas joined the Union voluntarily..” Don’t you just love the sound of that? Texas, a strong and independent republic chose to join the fledgling U.S.A. and add their proud citizenry to the ranks of those building the greatest nation in the world. It certainly sounds better than the truth. A debt ridden republic that begged for almost a decade and finally gave up over a quarter of it’s land in exchange for the U.S. taking over $10 million in debt.

May I suggest that less than 1% of the American electorate is hardly a “mandate” for secession?

That “less than 1%” is growing, and may be larger than you think. It has been a topic of private disscusion among my “circle” of friends and family and support for it is very strong. No one that I know has signed any of these petitions nor will they (or me either). But the movement is out there.

As I stated in my comments above, The Bill of Rights is a separate system outside the Commercial Treaty of the Constitution, which deals directly in foreign commerce. Even human beings not signed directly to the Constitution are considered as being foreign. That is another reason for the taxation by a Society with their own rules for collecting monies from foreigners. Are you signed to that Contract of the Constitution? I don’t recall seeing your names anywhere on the document.

Vigilant: with the first ten Amendments those rights were given to the people and have NOTHING to do with commerce or contracts. The right to peaceably assemble is an INDIVIDUAL 1st Amendment right and can not be taken from you without your consent.

When you become a member of a REGISTERED movement such as the Occupy Movement, then you can be charged with violations of the registration, because that is a contract created for that event and not all of the particulars were put into that contract.

As a human being, you do not have to ask permission to assemble, because it is already guaranteed to you anytime, by that 1st Amendment. Every American is not signed to any of the State Constitutions either. You are an American first and foremost and were an American on the day you were born, not after.

Follow the LAWFUL Law not the LEGAL Law people. Legal gets you into more trouble than it is worth. Education is the source that needs to be leading this people instead of the ignorance of following what someone else tells you.

“… with the first ten Amendments those rights were given to the people… ”

Actually you are incorrect. The Bill of Rights does nt grant any rights, it reinforces the LIMITS put upon the federal government. So Lets take a couple of Amendments:

First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
(Remember that ONLY congress can legally make laws, legislation.)

The SIX PROTECTIONS AGAINST GOVERNMENT ENCHROACHMENT ARE:
1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
2. Congress shall make no law prohibiting the exercise of religion
3. Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech
4. Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of the press
5. Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people peacefully to assemble
6. Congress shall make no law abridging the right to petition the government for a redress of grievance.

Make sense to you? These are our NATURAL GOD GIVEN RIGHTS. We had these before there was a Constitution.

Fourth Amendment: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

There are two governmental limitations stated in this amendment.
1. The citizens are to be secure in their person, home, papers, and property, from
unreasonable searches and seizure. They have the privacy to go about their lives without worrying whether the government will invade them. This amendment was to ensure that the government does NOT trespass on the people nor take anything from the people without following correct legal procedure.
2. The government is restrained from taking either person or property without first
getting a warrant, and ONLY after proving probable cause. {This is only as valid as the judge is honest. There have been cases in which judges have signed blank warrants, and the details are not filled in until after serving the warrant. But all judges caught doing this should be immediatelly prosecuted as any other criminal would be}.

These amendments in the Bill of Rights are NOT grants of individual rights, but completely a limitation on the government to ensure that they (the feds) do not go beyond their listed (enumerated) powers.

Make sense to you now?

david imlay – Very well stated. We’ve become a nation of sheep, and are being led down the chute, bleating and baaaahhhing, to slaughter.
).
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO GRANT US RIGHTS, NOR TO TAKE THEM AWAY, except that we consent and allow it.

The people in DC (and localities) are no different from you and me, except that they have much bigger egos and have been trained in the art of deception and manipulation, mostly through law schools. In fact, lawyers are specifically barred from serving in any government office because they have foreign allegiance (the BAR – Brittish Accreditation), per the 13th Amendment to the Constitution (of which there is much misinformation and cover-up).

We’ve been lied to for so long that we believe that we have no power, and we behave like slaves. We’ve been completely neutered, neutralized, through the most evil and unconsciounable means ever perpetrated on a people throughout history: indoctrination, continual poisoning of our minds and bodies, distortions of truth, manipulation of our emotions, and outright brutality.

The question is, do we bow down, accepting increasing intrusions into our lives and bodies, or do we wake up and become willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to free ouselves from tyranny.

There is no Earthly reason why we should have to simply endure life, struggling against continual forces of limitation and plunder of our hard-earned labor, enslaved through a system of debt which claims ownership of all that we have and are (even food and water).

Should not life be joyful and abundant? And the sad truth is that there is enough land and resources to abundantly care for every person on the planet, if we were allowed. Every person could have the ability to thrive and evolve, if we were not hindered by control freaks.

We are not cattle, people. In fact, even cattle deserve better from life. All of life should have the right to live free and thrive, because it is only by honoring all of life that Life is perceived as having value simply by its existence. Only by honoring Life do we, ourselves, understand that we have value.

Sounds like it would be good and bad things on both sides. Only proves that we need each other and should all work together.

You can have all those nanny states, if you want to see what you get from Yale and the others, just look at D.C. All those states you want to keep are broke and sinking. BTW, we still say grace, sir, ma’m and help one another. I’ll bet you don’t know what end of a cow the fertilizer comes out!

sounds great to me!

Bud, Nice post. I am still trying to find the good things that the Blue States are keeping. Sign me up for the TSA (as long as they don’t have those guys who molest me, like the TSA are the airport). I would gladly give up all those wonderful things that the Blue States have to be able to live without putting up with the Pelosis of this nation.

Secession is the only answer. Our country cannot be fixed. The problem is the people with the power to make our laws are the problem. We need term limits for congress and it will never happen.

Dale wrote: “Secession is the only answer. Our country cannot be fixed.”

That’s like saying, “We can’t stop fighting , so our only answer is a divorce,” which completely avoids the topics of why two people were brought together in the first place AND, are they just going to BOTH sit their in complete ignorance and project the anger over their disagreements on each other OR, might they learn from their own personal mistakes and stop dragging their personal baggage into the relationship?

The Declaration of Independence was a divorce from a very dysfunctional relationship, and the Constitution still is a marriage agreement and is only as valid as the states which desire to stay married. As I understand it, the only way to secede is for Congress to dissolve the Constitution, but that would leave the states with no central authority. With the crap we have coming from DC today, what’s the difference? Hillary has been busy selling off parts of the US to China for years, but the libtards either have no problem with that or they refuse to admit it.

We, as states, still have far more in common than not, and the most intelligent thing we could do is wake up the zombies on both sides of the fence before Big Brother takes it upon himself to remove the marriage contract with replace it something that we all find despicable. As long as those slope-headed zombies on the far left and far right are still believing their candidate represents them, that’s like expecting an intelligent dialogue from the family canary, and it’s difficult to stay married to someone you’ve grown light-years beyond.

The Constitution does not have to be dissolved to legally allow secession: It only needs to be amended, either through the usual amendment process or during a CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.
FYI. As of the weekend of December 8th, 10 states have announced they are now ready to call for a convention.

I doubt any have really done so as who other that the legislature by a majority vote can do so and what 10 states have been in session since this madness started late this fall and it takes 34 states for it to happen, this is something that is never going to happen anyway so forget it

Term limits CAN happen if the states will convene another CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION. Other issues that can be addressed during a convention are: federal judges, including Supreme Court justices, should be elected to specific terms of office instead of appointed to lifetime positions; mandatory retirement age for federal judges; a balanced budget amendment; requiring the approval of states to create a new federal agency; the total elimination of some existing federal agencies; all regulations proposed by any federal agency must be approved by Congress before going into effect; requiring the approval of the states to establish a new tax or increase an existing tax; the consolidation of all federal law enforcement agencies under one agency such as the FBI; neither the president nor the attorney general should have the authority to order any law enforcement agency to NOT enforce the law; illegal aliens/immigrants (which ever term you prefer) should not be able to obtain any type of government assistance or benefits, except EMERGENCY medical treatment; a person who wants to register to vote must provide proof of US citizenship at registration; return to all paper balloting for public elections; it should be considered treason and subject to punishment by death for any official of the US government to negotiate a treaty that is in direct violation of the Constitution; it should be treason and subject to punishment by death for any Senator to vote to ratify a treaty that is in direct violation of the Constitution.
You can probably think of other issues that need to be addressed: I only offer these to start the discussion. It is time for the people to take back their own country. A convention can do this without violence. Even if a convention is not successful, then at least history will record that the people TRIED to produce necessary change within the government and resorted to war/revolution only after all non-violent options were exhausted.

We are the Few, Sarah. The best we can do is to educate as many people as possible to the concepts of Freedom, hoping that eventually we become the many.

First clean up your state govts. and force them to start Nullification of overreaching fed. mandates. If that doesn’t start to get us back on track to Freedom then secede. And if you do that you’d better make sure you’re locked and loaded! The Evil One and his handlers will throw everything they can to stop secession from being successful. Including the bringing in of foreign troops.

Nullification is one way to stop the current out of control government, one step at a time. If its going to be done in a clean sweep then the states need to convene another CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, which is what I’ve been saying for several months. I don’t know if others have been listening to me, but there are now eight states that have stated they are now ready to call for a convention.

Daniel, I don’t think that Nullification will raise any fewer hackles from Big Government than Secession would. And a Constitutional Convention would be very dangerous indeed, due to the vast ignorance among the heavily propagandized citizens about the concepts of Freedom.

Your comments against a convention DO have some merit. However, have you taken a close look at the direction our country is currently headed? Do you REALLY believe a convention could make the situation worse? Granted, some things could theoretically become worse after a convention. But a convention could be a GIANT step towards reinforming/reeducating the “propagandized public” about the concepts of freedom.

Benjamin Fox wrote: “The dumb, blind and immoral will soon learn that God is in charge and not them, so pull down your pants, lift up your skirts and stick you heads into where the sun don’t shine.”

The recent inundation of the television channels with one zombie or walking-dead show after another is a testament to how the system sees the average voter …… brain dead. The only problem the rest of US have is trying to convince those brain dead Romney and Obama supporters that their saviour candidates were BOTH part of the problem. Until that happens, it’ll be a really tough fight, because THEY will still be believing that anyone who questions the status quo (i.e. their globalist puppet candidates) MUST be a terrorist.