It doesn’t take a genius to read and understand the Constitution. The Founders wrote it so even you could understand it, Flashy. Scalia has already said words to the effect that the individual mandate would create a whole new relationship between the people and the government not intended by the Constitution…and the statement was NOT complimentary.

As for the SCOTUS decision, how much $$$ are you willing to wager that the individual mandate will be struck down? And when it is, what will be your reaction?

Oh, Flashman understands the Constitution, Vigilant. He just chooses to ignore the Main Law of the Land when it doesn’t suit his purposes, being the dishonest person that he is.

Vigilant says — “As for the SCOTUS decision, how much $$$ are you willing to wager that the individual mandate will be struck down? And when it is, what will be your reaction?”.
That would be a bad bet, Vigilant, because Flashman would only honor it if he won. And when he loses, his reaction will be the usual reaction we get from Flashman — Dancing Around the Truth.

DaveH, correctamundo!

Vig…I give it 50/50 on the mandate. it will be a 6-3 decision either way with Roberts voting with the majority so as to assign the final opinion.

Here’s my reading of the issue and odds. Prior to the HCR, when we were battling with Hillary Clinton’s Health Care reform proposals, the GOP leadership were the ones pushing for the mandate. That signals that it may indeed have legs.

Scalia is against it. I understand his reasoning. Thomas is a bought and paid for clown. Alito is a far right conservative..and like Scalia, while I may not agree with his reasonings, I understand them. Kennedy is the swing vote.

What may well swing Kennedy is Scalia did himself some damage with Citizen’s United. He absolutely misread the resulting ramifications. Recall Scalia was the member shaking his head in disagreement as President Obama described the ramifications (correctly). I think, from hints in some of the opinions of late, Kennedy has lost any faith in Scalia’s ability to detail what the ramifications of a decision will be. And while not written or detailed, ramifications must have a part in any determination on any case. It is, after all, the future which an opinion must deal with, not the past.

parts of the HCR ACt have already kicked in and will be difficult to unwind. I cannot see severability as an option as it is a complex detailed intertwining plan. Though the Court may well sever the mandate from the rest of the package, i highly doubt it. Especially in today’s political climate and…don’t discount this…there is a likelihood the elections will swing strongly Democrat and Pres. Obama is odds on to win re-election.

That it is within the Commerce Clause should not be an issue. Unless the Court undoes a myriad number of cases and past decisions, it will find the power to be one of those of Congress. The Court has rarely gone to the extent of overturning a broad swath of prior decisions involving several Courts. One of the very few i can recall at this moment is Brown v. Board of Education which overturned Plessy v Ferguson decided 60 years before that. That involved social issues..not the complex economic issues which the Commerce Clause deals with.

The issue will boil down to the power to mandate an act. That there is a power is without question. Just think of criminal law. What some states allow, the feds have mandated over this nation differently. Whether the feds can mandate forcing private contract is the issue.

What may well save the mandate is there is an option available. One has a choice. obtain health insurance or pay a penalty in an amount to the government calculated to cover the additional expense to the nation for not being insured.

Last week at dinner/drinks, I listened to a view which was interesting. The suggestion was the Court would have it both ways. Find the mandate within the powers of the Commerce Clause, just barely. And find the penalty to be unconstitutional as it is subjective and not based on any actual cost of reimbursement for not having coverage. Thus…the mandate will be upheld, but carry no penalty if one doesn’t adhere to it.

Interesting analysis.

it’s going to be a squeaker either way.

i won’t bet. Anyone who does bet either way is a true gambler.

Can’t say that a 6-3 decision is even a probability. It wil almost certainly be a 5-4 decision, as have been most decisions.

In Citizens United, Stevens wrote the dissenting opinion, joined by activist judges Ginsburg, Breyer and Sotomayor. Kennedy wrote the majority opinion and was joined by Thomas, Roberts, Scalia and Alito.

You said, “What may well swing Kennedy is Scalia did himself some damage with Citizen’s United. He absolutely misread the resulting ramifications. Recall Scalia was the member shaking his head in disagreement as President Obama described the ramifications (correctly).”

First of all, Scalia does not attend State of the Union speeches, never has, never will. It was Chief Justice Roberts who shook his head, and correctly so, at Obama’s mischaracterization of the decision, and his outright lie that it would bring foreign funds into the political mix. Believe me, that little incident did Obama a world of harm, not Roberts.

So, the decision will most likely come down to the usual four dependable Constitutional scholars and strict constructionists Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas. Dissenters will be the activist justices and oath breakers Sotomayor, Ginsburg, Kagan and Breyer (all Clinton and Obama appointees) .

It is likely that Kennedy will go with the conservatives, as his statements during initial hearings seem to indicate.

BTW, your denigrating statement about Clarence Thomas is way off base and is not borne out by the facts. I’ve called you out on this before. Read the record of his written opinions before you categorically dismiss him as a “clown.”

It’s funny that you would spend so much verbiage on this board, Flashman, when you know you have no credibility.
For instance, you say — “Prior to the HCR, when we were battling with Hillary Clinton’s Health Care reform proposals, the GOP leadership were the ones pushing for the mandate”. Oh? Care to cite your references for that fabricated fact?

Expecting the Supreme Court to rule honestly on a Constitutional issue, is like expecting the fox to give the hen’s an honest chance. Or like expecting Flashman to admit that he is a lying thieving Progressive.

Flashman says — “That it is within the Commerce Clause should not be an issue. Unless the Court undoes a myriad number of cases and past decisions, it will find the power to be one of those of Congress”.
The Supreme Court in 1942 first started the current expansive definition of the Commerce Clause with the Wickard v. Filburn case. For the century and a half before that the Commerce Clause was limited to Interstate Commerce, not commerce confined to a state, and especially not activities that involved no trade at all. The original intent of the Commerce Clause was explained by James Madison in Federalist 42, and that was to secure what might be called a Domestic Free Trade Zone. That is, to prevent the States from enacting anti-interstate trade laws, taxes, qoutas, etc. that would be protective of that State’s Commercial Businesses. Of course, Leaders are in the business of expanding their Power, so they will push the envelope wherever they can to gain more of that Power.
But prior to the Healthcare Bill, even the stretched-out interpretation of the Commerce Clause only gave Congress the authority to “regulate” commercial activity. Never before has Congress been given the power to regulate Inactivity (that is, a consumer’s choice NOT to engage in a trade or purchase) such as NOT to purchase Healthcare Insurance.
More on that:
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/12/why-the-personal-mandate-to-buy-health-insurance-is-unprecedented-and-unconstitutional

What next? Congress passes a law forcing us to buy Chevy Volts? Flashman would like that.

Last year an estimated 46,000 Americans died because they lacked health insurance and waited too long to get medical help, millions of others lost their life savings or their homes. Some of these people were forced to declare bankruptcy. My son-in-law operated on him own hand, nearly died from a MRSA infection, and is disabled because of untreated injuries to one of his feet. He, like millions of Americans, did not have health insurance. We need health care reform and though not perfect what was passed is still better than what we had.

“… millions of others lost their life savings or their homes.”

Sorry, sonny, if you have life savings and a home, you can afford health insurance. Read the Constitution some time, you might discover that it is not the business of the federal government to bail out people who had a choice and made a bad decision.

You might also want to check the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson’s “life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” was not an all-inclusive list, but you’d be damned hard pressed to try and make a case that the Founders thought government-paid health care is a natural right.

There’s no doubt that health care costs are too high. But that’s not an excuse to bypass the Law of the Land to force taxpayers to fund the poor decisions of millions. And if cost is indeed a concern, ask the Obama administration and the Trial Lwyers who support him why the Law has no remedies whatsoever for the hundreds of billions wasted on malpractice suits and defensive medicine practices necessitated by those suits.

I’m not a heartless SOB. On the other hand, I believe John Locke’s claim that the number one priority of government is to protect property rights. Taking my property at gunpoint to fund socialist wealth redistriibution schemes strikes at the very heart of the Constitution.

“Last year an estimated 46,000 Americans died because they lacked health insurance and waited too long to get medical help…”

That’s 2/100ths of one percent of the population.

vigilant –> “There’s no doubt that health care costs are too high. But that’s not an excuse to bypass the Law of the Land to force taxpayers to fund the poor decisions of millions”

Vig….it is not bypassing the Law of the Land. Unless decided by the SCOTUS it is unconstitutional, it IS the Law of the Land (example would be parts of the HCR Act have already kicked in)

As far as funding “poor decisions’…ummmm, have you seen the figures of the cost when the uninsured use Emergency Rooms as their source of health care?

“Vig….it is not bypassing the Law of the Land. Unless decided by the SCOTUS it is unconstitutional, it IS the Law of the Land …”

As usual Flushy gets it exactly backwards.

obamacare is bypassing the law of the land (Constitution) until the Supreme court declairs it is not.

Opal…I am unaware the Constitution is law. It is commonly and universally understood to be a document organizing government, granting powers and stating Rights, freedoms and liberties…

When a law is passed, objections may be made it is unconstitutional. Which means, the power is not granted by the Constitution. If it violates Rights, it cannot stand as it violates the Rights protected by the Constitution. The Constitution details the different duties and obligations of the branches to pass law and enforce such.

But have at it…what part of the Constitution is law?

Flashy, there’s no hope for you if you believe you can get away with the notion that the Constitution is not the Law of the Land. It has been universally recgnized as such from the beginning of this nation.

You’ll find two things in the law books at the very beginning, The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, ALL laws must pass the muster of Constitutionality, and to parse words as you have in some sophistry of a lawyer is to give credence to the myth that the Constitution is a “living document.”

Flashy says, “As far as funding “poor decisions’…ummmm, have you seen the figures of the cost when the uninsured use Emergency Rooms as their source of health care?”

Kindly tell me what Constitutional role the Federal Government has in playing benefactor to the uninsured and we might have something to talk about.

Bleeding hearts need to get it into their skulls that whether Obamacare saves billions or costs billions is irrelevant to the Constitutionality of the Act.

Flashman is just doing what he does — using equivocation and double-speak in an attempt to sound intelligent to certain ignorant readers (Liberals). Unfortunately for Flashman the only people who might buy his BS are the same Liberals who already are hopelessly ignorant and thus his influence in wasted.

Richard Pawley;
Can you please name your source or the name of the State where those over 75 are denied dialysis because of “Obamacare”?

Sincerely,
Truesoy

Actually, I agree with Smash44 on that one. But that’s the nature of the Income Tax system — manipulation of the citizens, vote-buying, a confusing source of revenue for our Leviathan Federal Government, etc.
We need to get our Freedom back. Abolish the 16th Amendment and get the source of Revenues to support the Federal Government back to the States where it belongs, and apportioned based on the population of each State as the Founders intended and as written in the original Constitution. That would go a long way toward shrinking the Leviathan Federal Government back to the 3% of the GDP that they spent in 1900 (and we got along just fine), instead of the 40% of GDP that they currently consume.
There is only one Political Party that advocates abolishing the Income Tax:
http://libertarianparty.org/

AND WE MADE A LOT LESS THAN $60.000

it’s just another program to tie you to the demo. just like the school lunch program feeding children from families that have $60.000 income. my wife and I had two children and tyhe sxchool or no body else paid for their lunch. IT’S CALLED RESPONSIBILIOTY

This is just Americans helping Americans. No one seems to be mentioning the 2,000,000 Illegal aliens, many of whom are getting $10,000 a year back for children that are not even verified, some supposedly living in Mexico. We borrow $4 million dollars a day to add to the other $6 million dollars a day or some FOUR BILLION, 200 MILLION A YEAR TO PAY FOR THE NON-EXISTENT (in some cases) children of illegal aliens. This has been going on for years, so I certainly don’t begrudge a small refund to legal Americans who must prove their children exist before getting a dime.

One trailer in the mid-west somewhere supposedly had four different illegal families with 20 children living there. One child and two parents were found. The IRS knows this and refused to comment to the journalists who inquired. This is all part of a plan of some kind but if we can give this amount away to those who are here illegally and 87% of which are good decent people (except for being illegal) then I don’t think it’s fair to oppose helping our own people. One of these illegal aliens had it set up so he was making after tax refunds for upmteen children more than I have ever made in a year! I can’t say I like it but can I fault him for taking advantage of all that he is being offered. I hope some of these people are smart enough to save some and I know they are because I mentioned in my last book an illegal alien who was able to get a mortgage on a home in the mid-west and were in tears at the prospect because never in his home country could he ever have imagined being a home owner. Many of these people are hard workers but the crisis that is coming will be felt by EVERYONE. No one, no matter how rich, will be unaffected.

We have very little time left as a financially sound nation. I hope we have a couple of years but I wouldn’t count on it. We are broke and have to borrow $4 billion every day of the nearly 10 billion we spend. Don’t waste time with trivia. Start preparing for the really hard times that are coming. If you don’t you will bitterly regret it when it finally hits us like a tsunami.

No, Richard, this is not “just Americans helping Americans”. This is Americans being Forced to help other Americans to protect them from their own personal choices.

But we spend so incredibly much more on things that are not helpful. There has been a small (I think it was $500 deduction) for maybe 50 years for each child. Should we do away with deductions for adults as well while we are at it? I prefer to fight for things that are big and significant. I’d rather see them do away with the Federal Reserve Bank altogether and the income tax that was invented to pay them, although I have no illusions about that either. We didn’t even need income tax before the FED was given the green light to take over the money of the country. Around the world hundreds of thousands live very well off the interest we and others pay the Central Banks of the world (about three thousand MILLION dollars a DAY in interest here in the USA if I’m not mistaken). That money would so much better serve the people who earned it.

Right now a petition is winding it’s way around to demand an audit of the FED but the senate may stop it because they don’t want the population to know what is really going on. The FED has never been audited by anyone but themselves since they were given a power greater than congress itself in 1913. What is really interesting is that the Book of Revelation hints that the charming world dictator who will one day rule the world with an iron fist will not be a general but some kind of banker. Of course I don’t expect this to come about until after WWIII and the world is in a terrible mess and the populations are clamoring for someone to do something, and then up will step the answer man who will seem to have all the answers until he begins executing those who won’t worship him as a living God. At least that is the vision that John had on the Island of Patmos and which is recorded in the last book of the Bible. Really far out, but if you had told me fifty years ago that the Democrat Party who support slavery and opposed women voting and certainly integration would morph into Marxist Progressives who were trying to crash the United States economy so they could remake it according to a couple of pinhead teachers in Chicago I would have thought you were smoking some of those funny cigarettes. All I know for sure is that we are in for some incredibly hard times in the future and only those who have a relationship with God are likely to make it though all that is coming as a result of the insane spending spree that congress has been on for the past decade and especially the past three years. Prepare for some serious inflation after the election, maybe even a tripling of prices in the next five years although it could come quicker. I can’t even imagine the BILLIONS it will take to rebuild Los Angeles after the Big One, and that may take a generation, if it is even possible. It’s an amazing time to be alive, and we will see things that no one has ever seen. We already have!

Tanya says — “Those who are choosing to have children right now are carrying the financial burden of raising the generation that will have to pay the national debt and cover our social security obligations”.
Talk about oversimplifying, Tanya. You’re assuming that those children will be tax payers and not tax receivers. The facts are, Tanya, that if Government is for the good of all, then your children will benefit from that Government good, like everybody else. So why should you get a tax break for those future recipients of Government good? By having children, you’re producing more future Government beneficiaries, so if anything — you should pay more, not less. Seven children were your choice, Tanya, so why should other people pay the bill for them?
You would have a hard time convincing me that you really are an anarcho-capitalist with the arguments that you are presenting.

Tanya says — “So, for those of you who oppose any kind of tax relief for those raising children, are you willing to renounce your social security benefits because you have not produced enough taxpayers to pay for it, and are you willing to accept the tax increases to eliminate the debt in this generation?”.
Talk about a fallacious argument. What does the Government’s theft of the Social Security Fund, that we all paid into, have to do with anything? We already paid into the Social Security Fund. It’s not your Children’s obligation to repay what the Government has stolen, not is it ours, and I personally am not asking your children to pay it. Same goes for the National Debt.
Government has plenty of assets to meet their obligations, Tanya. You just need to come to the realization that they are the biggest gang in the land and they don’t want to give up those assets. They are playing the rest of us for fools. As an example of that, in 1900 Government (all levels) spent 3% of our GDP. If we could pare their spending back to just 10% of our GDP, they would have plenty of money to provide “essential” services, end Social Security for people willing to voluntarily withdraw, and still meet their obligations for those who are currently stuck on Social Security. That isn’t even counting the tremendous number of assets that are currently under Government control, and which could be sold, just as company assets must be sold when a private company can’t meet its obligations.

DaveH, if you view the next generation as tax receivers and not tax payers, then who do you believe is going to pay the debt and social security obligations?

And yes,I really am an anarchocapitalist. Maybe I wasn’t clear in my comment that my choice would be to opt out of the system entirely, but I do not have that choice. I do not consider government to be for the good of all, so I do not want myself or my children to be forced recipients of any government “good”. The problem is, I have to pay like everyone else, not only taxes and fees, but all the other costs of statism, like inflation and restrictions on my liberty to exchange with others.

It is very difficult to survive in a statist system on a low income without taking any government benefits. I’m not whining, just stating a fact. I don’t know many who try it, but we do, with the exception of the tax credit. I believe it is only going to get more difficult as the middle class disappears.

I do agree that it’s not my children’s responsibility to pay the national debt or social security obligations, but I believe they will be forced to do so, unfortunately, unless something major changes. I also agree with you that the government is the biggest gang in the land and that they are stealing from all of us, and I sincerely hope that the system will change in the ways you mentioned. I’m not optimistic that will happen, though, without a collapse.

It’s not my desire to take anything from anyone else or ask anyone to pay the costs of raising my children. I just want to be left alone. If you figure out how to do that, let me know!

Tanya, we all have to deal with things as they are and not as we want them to be. A millionaire with only an eighth grade education told me that that was one of the secrets of success, someone I met when I was young. You are doing better than many will be doing in a few years and I would encourage you to listen to the concerns of others and then trust your own Intuition, which I believe is a spiritual faculty. You can never please everyone and seldom change anyone. Life here is but a school and we all get graded, plain and simple, whether we believe it or not.

Don’t worry about selling your surplus food. Be glad you have it. Learn to can and dry and freeze it. A time is coming, sooner than most realize, when food will be extremely important, and the kind of quality heirloom seeds you can plant rather than dangerous disease giving genetically modified food that most have to eat because they shop for their food might even extend your lives.

I can remember when there were only four countries in the world where people lived longer than they did in the USA. Now with out so-called great healthcare and scientifically engineered food there are 37 countries where people live longer and with ObamaCare they are already denying dialysis in some states to patients 75 and over because Obama has gutted Medicare by many millions to pay for his vision of how it should be. Sadly, Sarah Palin was right about the “death panels”. Things are not going to get better for a very long time, maybe not for a generation. Pray about everything. There is no one God loves more than He loves your family but there are families who know Him better, are closer to Him, who pray more, or who listen more,and who are blessed more. To much to tell but check out this one page vision that a minister I met in the 1970′s had (and I knew more about his vision than he did because I’d studied and written about the coming hard times for 22 years now). In both my books I called it “The Great Depression” After you read this you might skip over to the article on the FDA and read the suggestions I gave others, some of which you might be able to take advantage of yourself. Speaking of canning I have a few reusable canning lids that are true antiques and was surprised to learn that they are still made. I also have black raspberry jam I made in 1977 that is still good, the wild strawberry however tasted like plum, and the one jar of grape jam went bad.

I’m one of eight children, six of whom finished college, four of whom have Master’s degrees, all of whom have never accepted food stamps even when we were eligible. I guess it was the generation we were raised in. However, we never could have made it if we didn’t grow a big chunk of our own food. I hated it then as a ten year old (the work after school) but appreciate it now. Of course all food was organic or heirloom quality because no one knew how to genetically manipulate food or animals except in Frankenstein movies. All my classmates had TV before we finally got a used one that cost a month’s rent ($50) for the big old house we rented.

Here’s the vision the good Rev had last in 2009. He passed on just sort of his 80th birthday last year. God bless you and I wish you well in all you do.

davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html

Thanks, Richard, for your kind words. I’m wondering if you were missing a link because you mentioned articles I could read. I’d love to read them if you can post a link. I have seen the Wilkerson vision before–pretty disturbing to think about what it would be like if people start to riot in the cities. I’m glad to live in a rural area where I have the opportunity to be more self-sufficient if things were to get crazy. Over the last several years we have focused by necessity on learning self-sufficiency, which has been a blessing to us and our children. They know how to work and how to get by in tough times, which can only help them in the long run.

The struggle I’m having right now is how much I want to be a “martyr for the cause”, so to speak. I absolutely believe in liberty–I don’t want anything taken from me, and I don’t want anyone giving anything to me if it’s not voluntary. The trouble is, I don’t have the option of living in a truly free market. Like Richard said, I have to live with things the way they are, not the way I wish they were.

I watch both sides, Republican and Democrat, supporting the establishment year after year, bickering over everyone paying their fair share while they allow the Federal Reserve and all of the bureaucracy and regulation to continue, which is costs that we all have to pay, even if we completely abolish income taxes altogether. I don’t want to take anything that isn’t mine to begin with, but if I don’t support the establishment, am I justified in reclaiming some of what I’m forced to give up to the system I hate? I realize there are no easy answers and those costs can be difficult to calculate, but I’m quite honestly sick of suffering because of other people’s choice to perpetuate this one-party system. It’s easy to judge people who take some tax credits or benefits, but what will you do at the point when government takes 75%, 90%, 100% of everything you produce? Will you be a martyr who won’t take “other people’s money” and starve to death, or will you take the “benefits”?

Here’s an example. I would be interested to hear what others would do in this situation. I got called for jury duty next month and they won’t let me out of it. My husband or oldest daughter will probably have to miss work because I have no other child care. We can’t afford this and I do not want to pay this cost for something I’m forced to do. When this kind of stuff happens to me against my will, I’m one step closer to just saying forget standing up for the cause and just take all the benefits I can get. You can say all you want about my taking your money to pay for my kids, but I say if you support this system, you’re the one stealing from me. Statists will probably mock and ridicule me for saying this, but oh well, so be it.

This is a ridiculously long comment, but I have one more question for those who take issue with the child tax credit. I’m wondering, do you feel the same way about the public school system? My state pays more than $10,000 per year for one child in public school. That is more than 10x the tax credit, yet I have never heard those who receive that “benefit” being accused of receiving welfare. If I put just ONE of my five eligible children in the public school system next year, the cost would far exceed my entire tax credit for all seven. Why is there not a huge public outcry over paying this cost of raising other people’s children? I have to pay property taxes and in addition pay the entire cost of educating my own children (although I do it for a very tiny fraction of the state’s cost). I could probably sign up for every tax credit and benefit I could possibly qualify for and it wouldn’t match the cost to the taxpayers if I put even one of them on the bus next year (which I’m not going to do). If you’ve had children in a public school you’ve received much more in welfare payments than I could possibly get if I tried.

I’m not necessarily saying I would take any of these benefits, but I get tired of those who gripe about tax credits, but are perfectly happy to support a system that steals from all of us.

Bob,you say that the young people fell in love with Obama! Could it not be that they FELL OUt OF LOVE with a party that lied them into a couple of bad wars and a sick economy?? They were seeing an awful lot of their fellow young people killed in those wars and reached for ANYONE who might bring it to a close! John, the hawk, Mc Pain and Caribou Barbie surely didn’t seem to offer that!

IMO. Obamas two biggest mistakes have been going for health care reform too quick and leaving Afghanistan too late! How much of the Obama “spending” has been on the wars he inherited and trying to get the economic OX out ot the ditch he found it in?? Oh, yes and paying the interest on the Reagan, bush I and bush II record debts! They figure in there somewhere don’t they??

NC says — “Bob,you say that the young people fell in love with Obama! Could it not be that they FELL OUt OF LOVE with a party that lied them into a couple of bad wars and a sick economy??”
So what has changed, NC?
We’re only out of Iraq because the Leaders there wanted us out. We’re still in Afghanistan. Obama involved us in a war with Libya who had in no way threatened the United States. And there were many young people killed there. Maybe they weren’t called Americans, but their lives were nonetheless just as important as ours are.
All of the Bush Programs that got us into trouble (plus the Federal Reserve) are still undisturbed by Obama.
Healthcare Reform too quick? Any amount of Healthcare Reform by Government is too quick. Private companies must please their customers or fail (unless bailed out by Government with taxpayer money), so they have a reason to work harder and be more productive. Government, on the other hand, has the deep pockets of the taxpayer to fund their follies, and they are almost impossible to fire, so why should they care? There is no incentive for them to be productive and they typically aren’t. The inevitable outcome of Government involvement in any business is higher prices and fewer products. Who pays those higher prices? The taxpayers of course. Who suffers for the shortages? The very same people that Ignorant Liberals think they’re helping. There is only one kind of Healthcare Reform that would greatly alleviate our problems, and that’s for Government to butt the flock out of the Healthcare Business.

Vig…your point being?

The top 10% have 83% of the net worth, and 84% of the financials. [Source: Edward N. Wolff at New York University, Department of Economics (2010)] i sourced that here because i assume people will denigrate instead of being educated by doing their own research.

So using your numbers, the upper incomes and wealthy aren’t paying their fair share and are wanting the rest of us to dig deeper to continue their welfare programs.

What does Net Worth have to do with Income Taxes, Flashman? So if the top 10% of Income Earners, who pay 65% of the Income Taxes even though they earn only 42% of the Income, manage to save their money better than the Takers like Flashman and his thieving Progressive Buddies, they should be taxed even more?
Let’s put this in perspective:
The bottom 50% of Income Earners who earn 13.9% of the Income, pay less than 4% of the total Federal Income Tax bill, yet they get the same vote (usually for more Government Thieves) as those with much more skin in the game. There is nothing even remotely Fair about that.

DaveH…you have your numbers wrong. The top 1% has 42.7% of the net financial earnings…if you expand to the top 10%, it’s 84.1%.

No, Flashdunce, I don’t have it wrong. You are just doing your usual Equivocating like the good little Progressive Administration Shill that you are.
Here is my source:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/341.html
Where’s yours, Flashdunce?

I gave my source DaveH….as usual, you don’t read.

That was a source, Flashman? — “Edward N. Wolff at New York University, Department of Economics (2010)”. What are we supposed to do, call him?
You’re a joke, Flashman. Surely you don’t take yourself seriously? I doubt the readers do.
Flashman, Folks, is a good example of the mentally challenged, immoral children who want to run your life.

DaveH…i give up thinking you read anything you cite as ‘proof’ of your stance. For the most part, it is either not relevant to what you are arguing…or supporting against your rants.

“the two big tax cuts during the Bush years are estimated to total about $1.5 trillion” … and the link states just what i was stating.

LOL…unless it’s Mises (which even then aren’t relevant to your arguments most of the time…but hey, the title matches eh? ) you show every day you have no idea about what you write.

You are shallower than a mud puddle in the desert. it’s folks like you who don’t take time or effort to learn that is one of the major causations of this nation’s ills today.

Have a nice day thinking simplistic inane thoughts…

Apparently, Ignoramus, you missed the part about over a 10-year period.

And anybody who has followed your useless and deranged comments, Flashdunce, knows that none of your personalities have any integrity or intelligence (follow the thread to Bob Livingston’s comment starting at Jovianus, one of Flashman’s multiple personalities):
http://personalliberty.com/2011/05/16/what-now/#comment-341930

DaveH….sorry about your reading comprehension and mathematical problems. perhaps repeating 3rd grade may help you. Jeesh…read the frippin’ article and do the frippin’ math.

Mr. Livingston was in error … he and i both know it. It’s over and done with as far as I’m concerned.

Here’s another discussion on the costs of the Bush Tax cuts:
http://taxfoundation.org/news/show/26314.html
From the article:
“However, many people still cite the original JCT estimate, which was that the Bush tax cuts (2001 and 2003) would, over the 10-year period, allow taxpayers to keep $1.6 trillion dollars that they would have remitted in taxes under the Clinton-era rates”.
Get it, Flashdunce? — “over a 10-year period”.
Even if we assume the high estimates ($2.5 Trillion over 10 years), that would be $250 Billion a year compared to a budget deficit for 2010 of $1290 Billion. It would pay less than 20% of the Budget Shortfall for 2010, and that’s ignoring the change in behavior that would occur with people facing higher taxes (they would work less, play more, and Government revenues from that source would go down).

Flashman,
Who do you think you’re kidding? Even the most ignorant Liberals (after reading my comments, the linked articles, and your comments) can see that you are just a dishonest misinforming Progressive.

Dear Flashy,

You write: “Mr. Livingston was in error … he and i both know it. It’s over and done with as far as I’m concerned.” No error made on my part.

Best wishes,
Bob

Flashman says — “Mr. Livingston was in error … he and i both know it. It’s over and done with as far as I’m concerned”.
No, Flashman, what Bob Livingston knows is that you have no credibility. You wish it was over and done with, but it is a fact of your history, that together with many other facts demonstrates that you are a Sociopath.
It’s too bad, isn’t it that there’s a record of your dishonesty here, unlike when you snow your acquaintances in person? Maybe you should just stick to spreading your manure in person where it isn’t so easy to reveal your dishonesty.

Mr. Livingston…then you continue to have an impression of infallacy. i won’t beat a dead horse. It has no relevance in these discussions nor in any future discussions. .

Dear Flashy,

I remind that you are the one who brought me into the discussion.

Best wishes,
Bob

Seek help, Flashman. That is, if you can find an affordable shrink who wants to deal with you (unlikely).

Why must we tolerate the paid communist shill, Flashy? The same can be asked of the paid communist shill, NC.

Mr. Livingston, I believe DaveH and his obsessive compulsions began that line. No need for either of us to apologize for the obsessions of DaveH.

You’re right, Flashman, I’m obsessed, obsessed with exposing lying, thieving, immoral, controlling Progressives like yourself.
And I do a pretty good job of it, which is why you can’t rebut my comments with logic, so you must fabricate facts, double-speak, ridicule, name-call, or whatever other Liberal manipulative tricks you have up your dishonest sleeve.

Vote for the party of thieves?
http://freedomschool.org/2010/02/27/a-society-of-criminals-ben-oneill/

no DaveH….as i wrote a few weeks ago, the criminal class adheres more to the TP ideology than any other. nice try though…as usual, you have no clue.

Do you have flavored shoes or something? The number of times you stick your foot in your mouth, I’m wondering if it’s because you want to look like a fool and have sympathy…or you really are one. I’m thinking more the latter…

Flashy advises to vote for the communist party. Har! Vote Democrat if you want to destroy whats left of this country and make it fit only for parasites, the depraved and liberal lunatics.

Here is what the DNC represents:
http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1141.html

Try as you might to disparage me with personal attacks, Flashdunce, but the readers know the truth — That you have no credibility.

DaveH I wish I had kept count of the number of times Flashy has been proven to be a lier by everyone.

i have never heard that when you are broke and rapidly running out of money, that to fix it you rush out and borrow money so you can be deeper in debt. Flashy if you have ten dollars left a month does making another debt that costs you 15 dollars?Is that going to get yoou out of debt? Idon’t think so…I know people just like you and all of then are standing in the govn. hand out line. We have allowed these people to stay in Washington until now we work for them…

Vote Democrat is death by insanity. If ever a section of the leadership ( pardon my error- leadership) that needs to be expunged is the sewage that the Democrats are. And we might as well be truthful, there are Republicans that are as rotten, led the the chief sewage disposal unit, obummer, the fairy.

DaveH says: Try as you might to disparage me with personal attacks, Flashdunce, but the readers know the truth — That you have no credibility.

Dave, the marxist Democratic party has no ability to engage in discussion or conversation. The best strategy they have is to accuse the other side of precisely what they themselves are doing.

But, you must remember…people with no moral lines drawn and for whom ethics are a floating mark to attain, cannot be expected to feel shame about their own lies. There is just “legal authority”.

Bush tried to be reasonable with them and put many democrats in responsible Congressional positions as liaisons with his White House and the only thing they did was lie to him and stab him in the back.

Of Course, George isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer. Trust NO marxist Democrats in America.

Flashy,
Your opinion is:
Noted,
Laughed at,
Filed…and
Flushed……

Parting gifts are avaible at the door.
Thanks for playing…..

Yes Flashy, that’s done well for California.

You have got that right, Bob. bho the fairy, needs to go…there will be NO help from the politicians that took an oath to uphold the Constitution! They are all complicit in everything that is going on in this country. Republican’ts are playing unbelievably ineffective, and seem unable to complete the simplest task! There is no way they all can be that stupid…. republican’ts quite using your lame excuses.

Republican’ts CAN bring charges against this illegal alien and make the Senate responsible for keeping this usurper in charge. If the republican’ts made them put “everything on the table” once and for all, so everyone could actually see credentials and qualifications or lack thereof, we could settle this! The obvious result would be that Americans by sheer numbers would demand the Senate to “dethrone” the fairy!

Otherwise, the governors of our 50 State (not 57 arabic states) must move to decentralize government and take back the powers they have let the Feds usurp from them.

Joe. I watched that video you said I would not watch! It appears that the only one telling the truth was Michael Moore who said our country is not broke! “It is awash in money! The problem is we do not have it!”"”" The rich and the big corporations have it and they got IT by Republicans giving them our tax money in unneeded tax cuts and loopholes instead of funding those unfunded wars! REMEMBER??? Probably not!! Denial is a mental illness!
Remember the Iraq war that the bush (not obama) administration PROMISED US would not last more than six months and not cost more than, are you ready. 60 BILLION DOLLARS??? REMEMBER?? PROBABLY NOT!! WE ARE STILL PAYING FOR THAT 6 M ONTHS 60 BILLION DOLLAR WAR!! RIGHT???? STILL PART OF OUR NATIONAL DEBT! STILL A PART OF OUR BUDGETS TO PAY THE MEDICAL COSTS FOR OUR BRAVE WOUNDED! PROBABLY FOR THE NEXT 60 YEARS!!
WE know how much the I-15% richest have and control in MONEY! Do you know that the biggest countries in our country NOW HAVE THE BIGGEST CASH RESERVES THEY HAVE HAD IN DECADES IF NOT FOR ALL TIME! Do you think maybe that may just be hoarded money from tax breaks that bush and Heritage Foundation PROMISED Congress that the ONES WHO RECEIVED THE BREAKS WOULD SPEND IT TO CREATE JOBS AND SURPLUSES !!!!!!! HOW DID THAT WORK OUT??

AND MITT AND GANG ARE SAYING, IF ELECTED, THEY WILL KILL CAPITAL GAINS TAXES WHICH IS 65% OF THE TOP 1%’S INCOME! HOW BIG OF ANOTHER TAX BREAK WILL THAT BE FOR THE SUPER RICH??

Therein lies your problem, NC. You think people like Michael Moore are honest people.

So If I tell you, NC, that you won’t read this book, you will?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Ripoff-Business-Government/dp/0471789070/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338063058&sr=8-1

Get off the Republican/Democrat paradigm. They both have Crony Capitalists who gain unfair advantage with the help of Government protection. It’s time to exit your deep slumber, NC, and learn some reality.

Let me get this straight. NC apparently is admitting that the National Debt buildup is a bad thing. Yet we hear him saying nothing about the National Debt increasing over 50% in just 3 years of Obama. And it’s growing at a rate of $1.5 Trillion a year. Yet the Liberal Zealot attributes none of the blame to Obama. It figures.

As far as Obama offering “major” budget cuts in exchange for a 1% increase on the taxes of the Rich goes, we have 2 problems. First, Congress and the President have a history of spending more money if they get more money. Second, Obama has a history of being dishonest:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2010/03/29/the_complete_list_of_obama039s_broken_promises_231735.html
And NC has a history of being an ignorant Liberal Zealot.

nc I see you on here all the time and all you do is blame bush. you are so one sided and shallow. the water doesn’t come up past your ankles. you are mis-informed and just really not very wise. i think you comment because you have nothing better to do. there is a whole lot more to all of this than you can fathom. try to be better informed.

By adjusting the 1 percent only it would barley touch the problem. Just how many 1 preventer do you think there are? Not sure but really across the board straight tax increase might be the only solution. Why could they not do a graduate increase tax increasing increments over the next 3 to 5 years.

And let’s define the 1% nc. Pelosi says over a million and BO still says 250,000, but that’s today.They’ll keep spending until they own us all. nc is another lib so in love with BO that they can’t see what he really is about. They remind me of the girl with the good looking, sweet talking, rotten, cheating boyfriend who just doesn’t want to believe reality. example: John Edwards/Eliz Edwards

If they raised the taxes on the richest 1% to 100%, it still be a drop in the bucket towards the debt. The government needs to spend less. That is what you and I do. If we have less income, we spend less money. That is not what the gov’t does. They spend more. They also never cut their own salaries or benefits (if nothing else but for positive PR) they never give across the board salary cuts to government bureaucrats earning more than $100,000 a year. They never cut individual departments budgets. THey even encourage waste by requiring departments to spend their entire budget or lose it. They end up throwing away good stuff and buying new stuff to replace it. THey could cut every department in the government 15% and nobody would know the difference in services.

NC you are an idiot. Obamas so called 1% is an actual10-15%. Where do you fall dumbass??

NC says — “Acording to the polls I’ve seen a majority of Americans feel that the ONE PERCENT does not pay enough taxes!”.
So, NC, if the majority of Americans feel that you should be removed to save the planet, would that somehow make that immoral event moral?

the middle class pays 28% the rich pays 39% that is 67% of the money all working people contribute to the goverment how much do you think the people should give to the goverment its time to stop all the spending and welfare programs if people want some thing from the goverment they should have to do some kind of work to earn it be it volunteer or something of the kind all this tax money has done is propped up the goverment to have elite perks paid for by the tax payers they are trying to pass laws that exempts themselves that are unconstitutional because the constitution does not allow for this

Hey Kid – here are the actual numbers:

01/14/2000 5,719,849,572,269
01/12/2001 5,735,197,779,458 = 153 Billion dollar deficit when Bush took office

01/15/2008 9,194,165,780,462

01/15/2009 10,627,708,753,691 = 1.4 trillion dollar deficit when Obama took office – Bush INCREASED the deficit by 1400 %

01/14/2011 14,007,943,536,871

01/13/2012 15,236,323,396,400 1228379859529 = 200 billion LESS than the deficit Obama inherited!

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

Republicans have stated that they will do ANYTHING to get Obama out of office – including screwing over the American public by sending the economy over the cliff and putting us into another recession.
If you are dumb enough to support their actions – you deserve what you get!

by the way nc’s pres. and followers have said that the deficit(?) is 1.6 trillion for 2011 by ABC analysis says it’s 5 trillion. thats because the govn. is playing games with the numbers

BigBadJohn, if you choose to believe this administration’s numbers after watching obama spend billions and trillions on his “stimulus” bills, bailing out incompetent businesses, doling away tax dollars and spending like he won the lottery, there is little hope for you. I know it might be hard to accept that perhaps this administration has done some “creative” accounting to make obama look better, similar to the imaginary numbers that they present for unemployment, but keep in mind that this is an election year and they wouldn’t want the current president to look bad by showing the real numbers.

The entire rest of the world sees what a mess obama has made of this country, yes, he inherited a bad economy, but in three years all he has done is made it worse. That is why our credit was down graded, because we were in a bad position and doing nothing to make it better, he wouldn’t cut spending but spent more.

nc, the only result from tax increases on the 1% will result, they all “exit the country!”

Enough!

People work so THEY can have money….not so they can give it to the retro libturds to steal or give away to the useless and our enemies!

nc …says “the poles say the majority of Americans feel the 1% don’t pay enough tax .

Could it be nc that the ones that believe the 1% don’t pay enough tax are the same ones that are getting some kind of entitlement ! After all the more tax we pay , I’m speaking of the working class now , the more the Government. will have to hand out .

As I’ve said before >> One of the problems in this Country is the number of people voting is higher than the number of people working .

We are screwed,,,think not? Please watch and listen carefully to these numbers…this means you NC( most will watch…and get it…you?…I have my doubts)…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNF8HYh59Rs

To recap…we are screwed….

I really don’t understand what BIG BAD JOHN is saying. Bush spent just under 5 Trillion dollars in 8 years, an outrageous amount, but Obama has already spent that much in three and a half years, and he still has six seven months to go! It hasn’t hit us yet but the result of all that spending is going to cause prices to TRIPLE. TRIPLE as in three times higher than they are now! When Bush was president some 200,000 to 300,000 people a year were leaving the country. In 2002 or 2003 (I forget which) we lost 100,000 millionaires. Since the Progressive Socialists have taken over some 3,000,000 Americans a year are jumping ship. In 2004 I talked with some who were leaving and six out of seven told me that it was because of the economy (and times were still pretty good back then).

If Romney gets elected times are going to be bad, because we owe money we can’t pay. Why do you think Ben Benanke and Hillary Clinton were in China earlier in the month allowing the Chinese to have direct access to the U.S. Treasury, something that no country in history has ever had. On top of that China will soon be buying some of our banks and setting up their own. The only one they have here now is the Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation (HSBC) and it has been here for decades.

HOWEVER, if Obama gets re-elected, not only will times be bad, as they will under Romney, we will loose more of our freedoms, taxes will skyrocket, along with electricity rates, and fuel costs. He promised us all those things years ago.and he has never wavered, and we will live through perhaps a generation FAR WORSE THAN THE GREAT DEPRESSION EVER WAS.On top of that Obama will put in another pro-world rather than pro-American Supreme Court justice and we can live under Obama’s thumb long after he has returned to Chicago.

The die has been cast. The money squandered. All, even the poor who pay nothing are going to have to begin paying their fair share. The top one percent pay something like 37% of taxes. I don’t personally know any multimillionaires (that I know of) but I do know the poor pay nothing. I don’t care if they just pay $5 a week they need to feel like they belong and contribute and are not just sponges living off the rest of us.

I was shocked to discover that there are a few illegal aliens among the 2,000,000 who get income tax refunds on money they never earned and a few of them actually get more money per year than I have ever made. Admittedly only a few but many get an extra $10,000 back by claiming children here or in Mexico, non of which is verified. It is a sham and if the population ever discovers what is being done to them in the name of fairness millions of taxpayers will just stop paying taxes, or they will do what millions have already done, pick up and leave. Why do you think the both Democrats and Republicans are supporting a bill to make taxes retroactive for ten years for those who leave the USA? And to pass a law that those thousands who have renounced their citizenship can never return. Like the Jews who escaped Germany in the late 1930′s some lost everything but were glad to get out while they could. Those who could not believe it could get as bad as it did, died.

There is not much difference anymore between Democrats and Republicans except words, There is a difference between both them and the Libertarians and the Tea Party people but those who think they can stop the serious hard times that are coming are deluded. One major Democrat, a very well known name, said some SEVEN YEARS AGO that only a comet from space or an alien invasion could stop the crisis that is coming from happening. It is downhill for years from here on out, maybe decades. Our founding fathers said that the form of government they gave us would only work for a moral people. Once we were moral, we believed in hard work, and the precepts of the Bible. “He who works will eat” and things like that unless they cannot and then they would be taken care of by the community of believers, not by government. It seems that many are tired of freedom and want to be slaves.of whoever will take care of them and so this congress and this president has increased those on food stamps by some ten million, far far more than George Bush ever did.

While it does make a difference who gets elected in a little over five months, if congress remains the same we will simply be closer to our demise as a major power. If we were a company rather than a country that can just print money until it is worthless we would already be bankrupt. Will we sell our nation to China so we can just keep on for a few more years? I thank God I have no children who have to grow up in what this country has become, and those in congress who think they can escape all the laws they have passed because they are rich are going to be sadly mistaken. Money alone will not be enough.

Start getting ready for the big inflation and learning how to do without government support Big John or you are going to be between a rock and a hard place before this decade is over. May God help us, because soon, no one else will be able to do so.

Average Joe: That was an excellent short video that really covers it. To long to go into here but if you will go to the article about the the FDA that was also up today you can read some of the suggestions I made there about preparing for the really hard times that are coming. As I said there, quoting two of my books, “I called it the Greater Depression because it will last longer and be worse than the Great Depression but I now think it will be more than that”. We have some time to get ready but not a lot. The skyrocketing food prices haven’t begun yet but they have started. I hope you don’t live in a big city. It is never hopeless but the change that the current president promised us is coming and no one can stop it now. Perhaps it can be slowed down if we can replace the senate but follow your Intuition. No one will escape being affected by what is coming, but times will be simpler so maybe people’s blood pressure will go down. Pray and God bless you!

Actually according to the US Treasury website – Bush actually had the deficit coming down until his last two years in office when…. guess what happened? Democrats took control. I blame Bush for not vetoing the first budget they gave him, but he belatedly got tough on spending and vetoed the budget the next year. After that no budget – Harry, Pelosi and company just passed resolution after resolution to keep the government spending and in working.

The key is to KEEP VOTING THEM OUT! Those who will not do what they were elected to do can go home in November. Those who let the Speaker of the House force them into doing what he thinks best are too weak to be good representatives. You can’t believe the pressure that is on these new people to go along with those who really control the country and everything else. Keep voting them out and voting in someone new. Eventually you will get good people who will do what is right. Rome wasn’t built in a day!

You may be correct. We vote them out, but we get someone just like them back. It’s the curse of our two party system. Both parties are corrupt and they need to be taken out.

That’s the plan, man! That’s the plan!

Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Ronald Reagan

The potential problem with your solution is that liberals will also likely be involved in writing the new constitution…YIKES!!!!

Under the articles of confederation, there were problems, too. They set up a convention to tweak the articles. Instead, they got a whole new form of government. That time it worked out and we got the constitution. Do you think we have people that are as wise as our founders to send to the constitutional convention? Do we have people who know and crave freedom like our founders? Can you trust the people sent to the constitutional convention enough that you can guarantee a more liberty minded constitution instead of a complete change to tyrrany? I know I don’t trust them and won’t call for a constitutional convention

I agree with all of it hope it happens

I admire your desires, term limits would change the complexion of the game but it’d do little to change the actual game, Would it make politicians cheaper or more expensive?

It takes several years for any statesman to develop his/her skills and wield power from the position they hold. Would we want an able statesman that doing a good job for their district to perfunctory be dismissed? I wouldn’t think so.

It’s true, that the voters needs more leverage to apply to their elected representative, could there be another way? Or could there be steps applied leading up to a automatic dismissal.

I do think we all should be graded on our merits, we do this in the work place why would it be impossible to apply to politicians?

1. Show you pee pee, automatic dismissal.

2. Screw the hired help , automatic dismissal

3. Show your a$$, 5 demerits.

4. Show your a$$ again in 1 years , 10 demerits

5. Documented lie, about anything, 10 demerits

6. Leak sensitive information, automatic dismissal.

7, and so on ~ up to 10.

Like the 10 Commandments.

30 demerit in a single term, ~ they are history, can not return to the hill, cannot lobby period.

Like raising children, there needs to be boundaries and statesmen needs to know what they can expect to happen for poor performance.

DIW, problem with your assessment… we need to elect STATESMEN. We haven’t had one of them in many decades. Politicians are NOT statesmen.

Deer says — “It’s true, that the voters needs more leverage to apply to their elected representative, could there be another way?”.
There was. That’s why our Founders set up a Republic, where most of the ruling was done by Local Officials, who were much closer to the people they represented. Aspiring Leaders , on the other hand, know that the further they can get Government from their constituents, the less scrutiny they will have to endure from those who elect them. That’s why they prefer to have a Big Central Government.

ChristyK, Our founding fathers faced the gallows against charges of treason and this wouldn’t be the case today. Our politicians only stand to gain from a rewrite and they would make the thing so complicated that nobody would be able to understand it except for the people who wrote it. Our best hope would be to repeal some of the amendments just as they did with the 18th amendment. Two others that need to go are the 16th and the 17th amendments.

OMG….WELL SAID!! BRAVO……SOUNDS LIKE YOU NEED TO BE PRESIDENT!!