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The Paul Campaign's Strategic Mistake

January 24, 2012 by  

The Paul Campaign's Strategic Mistake

If Ron Paul’s libertarian handlers and support base could escape their ideology, Paul could be much better positioned to win the Republican nomination.

Here are some suggestions.

Paul should be making the point that Social Security and Medicare are threatened by multitrillion-dollar wars that are funded by debt, bailouts of a deregulated banking system and money creation to keep the banks afloat. Libertarians support deregulation, but their position has always been that deregulated industries must not be bailed out with public subsidies, much less subsidies that are so extensive that they threaten government solvency and the value of the currency.

Instead of hitting hard on the serious threat to Social Security and Medicare posed by Obama and Republican candidates for the nomination — all of whom serve Wall Street, the military/security complex and the Israel lobby — Paul has been positioned both by his supporters and his opponents as the danger to Social Security and Medicare. This is an amazing strategic mistake by the Paul campaign.

The mistake is somewhat understandable. Paul’s supporters are mainly among the young. The importance to them of Social Security and Medicare will not register for many years, but for the vast majority of the population, Social Security and Medicare are essential for survival. A candidate who is positioned as the destroyer of what scant economic protection the American elderly have is not positioned to win an election for President.

Many libertarians regard Social Security and Medicare as welfare handouts and as Ponzi schemes, when in fact these programs are a form of private property. People pay for these programs all their working lives, just as they pay premiums for private medical policies and make their deposits into private pension plans. Libertarians are great defenders of private property, so why don’t they defend the elderly’s private property rights in Social Security and Medicare benefits? Social Security and Medicare are contracts that the government made with citizens. These contracts are as valid and enforceable as any other contracts. If Social Security and Medicare are in dire trouble, why is the government wasting trillions of dollars on behalf of private armaments industries, a neocon ideology and Israel’s territorial ambitions? Why isn’t this question the most important issue in the campaign?

Instead, in a decade that has seen two massive stock market crashes and an amazing amount of financial fraud, libertarians prattle on about privatizing Social Security and about how much larger the retirement pensions would be. They speak about delaying the Social Security retirement age to 70 without any thought to what a person does who is retired by his employer at 65. People who suggest making Social Security and Medicare off-limits until people reach 70 need to have a look at the cost of private medical plans for older people. A group plan with Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Florida for a 64-year old woman has an $18,000 premium, large deductibles per medical issue and a 20 percent co-pay. Even a person with private insurance faces potentially ruinous healthcare expenses.

Libertarians will not wait to think before they inform me that private savings are funded, but Social Security and Medicare are not. They are incorrect on both accounts.

Social Security and Medicare are funded with a payroll tax. It is true that the government has stolen the funds, spent them and left non-marketable IOUs in their place. But in our deregulated casino financial system with street registration of “securities,” the same thing happens to private holdings. Where is the money that individuals had in MF Global? What happened to people’s savings invested with Bernard Madoff? What happened to Enron’s investors? Can AIG make good on its promises to pay the benefits that people have purchased? Can banks whose balance sheets are loaded with subprime derivatives make good on their depositors’ accounts? U.S. government debt is a component of many private pension plans. How secure are the values of Treasury bonds?

The notion that free, unregulated markets are totally trustworthy is the enormous mistake that former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan made, for which American and European peoples continue to pay. Libertarians endorse this fantastic mistake to the hilt.

This is not meant to be an attack on libertarians. Rather, it is an explanation of some of their mistakes. There is much to admire about libertarians. They believe in civil liberty, that is, in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. They understand that government cannot substitute for the market. I know a lot about libertarians. I was associated with them for years, serving for several years as Distinguished Scholar at the Cato Institute until I was run off for independent thinking.

Libertarians are sectarian, and their tolerance does not extend beyond their ideology.

The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector. They will abuse their power regardless of where they perch. That is why government needs to be tied down by the Constitution and the private sector by regulation. Yes, regulation can go too far. Certainly, deregulation has gone too far.

The ongoing financial crisis from deregulation and ongoing jobs crisis from offshoring constitute empirical evidence that the belief is false that an unfettered private sector is the source of all good.

Some readers of Paul Craig Roberts Institute for Political Economy misunderstood the point of my column, “America’s Last Chance.” I am endorsing the U.S. Constitution and making the point that Paul is the only candidate for President in either party who is committed to resurrecting the Constitution. Without the Constitution we cease to be American citizens and become subjects of a tyrannical police state. My complaint is that the only candidate who could bring back the Constitution cannot be elected because of the inflexibility and sectarianism of his base. Possibly there are more worthy third-party candidates, but they have no prospect of visibility. Paul is visible, and the opportunity is going to waste.

I hope readers will spare me their comments about how important their various single issues are. There are many important things. The question is: What is the over-riding important thing?

Civil liberty, essentially the accountability of government to law that serves to protect the innocent, is the historic achievement of the English over many centuries from its beginnings with the foundation for common law established by Alfred the Great in the 9th century through the Magna Carta in the 13th century to the Glorious Revolution in the 17th century. If this human achievement is lost, it is unlikely to be resurrected. If the Constitution that George W. Bush and Barack Obama have murdered stays in its grave one more Presidential term, no one will be able to re-establish the Constitution’s authority.

And please, no prattle from libertarians about “natural rights.” The only rights we have are rights achieved by centuries of human struggle that we have the wits and strength to retain.

And no prattle from left-wingers who denounce the Constitution for not protecting slaves and native Indians. The Constitution did not establish universal justice. The Constitution protected the people covered by it. Over time, rights were extended. During the past decade, the Constitution lost its power. Today, rights depend on the subjective opinion of the executive branch. This is tyranny. We should be unified in our opposition to tyranny.

–Paul Craig Roberts

Paul Craig Roberts

was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of The Wall Street Journal. He was columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service, and Creators Syndicate. He has had many university appointments. His Internet columns have attracted a worldwide following, and can be accessed here.

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  • FLORDIA

    I have watched every debate & 80% of what Ron Paul says is radical & can harm our America & our military !

    • ktr

      people in florida want handouts; RP will not harm the military or this country; he will balance the budget; floridians sit around worrying about whether or not their entitlement program check will be there over the next few years; here is an idea; get a job!

    • Jason Mench

      Really? Then why does RP have more votes from active military and veterans? RP is strong on National Defense, not on Nation Building and oppression of other countries.

    • kkflash

      If following the Constitution is radical, then call me a revolutionary! Flordia (sic), you and those like you are the reason our country is in the mess that it’s in. You listen but you don’t hear.

    • Sol of Texas

      Florida –

      I have two responses …
      (1) If true, then why do so many in the military support Ron Paul?
      (2) Booooooo … stop listening to the pundits and think through this on your own. Radical? Hell, yeah! Radical is not necessarily bad. The world is improved by “unreasonable” men and “radical” thinkers (reflect on Payne, Washington, Jefferson, Henry, Adams, Franklin, …). Without radicals, our minds would still model a flat-earth. Don’t be afraid, just think about it.

      • Buddy

        Do you really know that the earth is not flat? I mean, do you personally know or is that belief a faith?

      • Deerinwater

        We know the world is not flat by many methods above and beyond just pictures. For example, at sea the range of vision is limited to 14 miles,due to the curvature of the earth. This limitation is the results of something that has always been in place, even before math could explain it.

        So your point, is null and void.

      • John

        How do you know that he has received that many contributions from the military? Because he said so? Because his campaign said so? Or because he has posted all the names and addresses on the web so people can verify them? Politicians say a lot of things all day long…. Don’t get me wrong, I like the man, but I will not believe any unverifiable claims from ANYONE period. Unless I can verify them myself I will just file them away as he said, she claimed but not as fact. I know quite a few military .. living not very far from a large base… and most I know would rather go out and get plastered then to sent RP even one penny… out of all the military I know, only one or two have openly supported RP…. and that makes me think twice about those claims…..

      • Jeff S

        You know that John because if it weren’t true then the other candidates would be quick to claim that prize or at least point to it’s falsehood. This is an election in case you missed it and something like that would not get over looked. Especially by the super-funded campaigner’s that are NeWOt and Romnuts.

      • c.w.s.

        John….go to the link I’ve provided to Open Secrets dot Org. They are dedicated to tracking money in politics and have been cited as an excellent site for several years by multiple parties left, right, and in between…: http://www.opensecrets.org/

      • c.w.s.

        you can even type in your zip code and find out who in your neighborhood is donating money and to whom. There are breakdowns as to which industries and which corporations donate, or you can select an individual and find who has given to them…

      • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com GILLYSROOMS in Australia

        John, I understand where your coming from in regard to proof, but remember that many people will not disclose to anyone who they intend to vote for, for fear of ridicule, but i’m sure many in the military and their children would rather receive a salary while waiting in the comfort of their barracks like firemen do in their stations rather than risk their lives for every minute of their days and nights in a foreign land. I’m not talking about cowardice…i’m talking about common sense. And Dr Ron Paul has bucket loads of commonsense if anyone cares to listern to what he is saying. It might sound radical because ALL the other candidates are talking in inison with Obama and all the others before him. ALL the other candidates are folloers..whereas Ron Paul is a leader and very much still not recognised for his wisdom.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      And you know this how? So if this country continues, as it is, it will eventually become Utopia.

    • Jeff S

      Please quit reading and beleiving what the MSmedia wants you to beleive. Tell me Einstein, how could taking our military out of war zones and the other 120 plus countries that they occupy, be “hamful to the military?”

      • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com GILLYSROOMS in Australia

        It might be because they might be expecting to all lose their jobs if they were no longer needed perhaps? but the reality is that these personell could be used in many other areas of national security but always in readiness in case of sudden need. This is what is not being understood by voters. Everyone wants to cut costs in governments but not if it affects their own pockets.

  • Bett

    He never said he will terminate the system and has agreed it must be fixed and a different plan for future

    Get us off this sinking ship, 2002 warnings to congress came true:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJG_oFFDK0
    Israel & CIA agree on foreign policy candidate, guess who?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnH0dxdiRzc&feature=player_embedded

  • s

    Bill I am your age and have never asked for or expected to get any gov. help either. But there are many who now depend on it now so the writers point is well taken. As to your point #3 I think that is hog wash. I don’t believe Dr. Paul’s stance is “fine and dandy for terrorist nations to make as many nukes as they want and hold the western world hostage.” The point he makes is that presently Iran is no threat to us. They have wide up toys for a navy and no air power. And most likely Israel will take care of any nukes they may develop on her own.

  • rb

    Well thought out and to the point. Perhaps not entirely accurate but well written. We truly need a constitutional candidate and Ron Paul is the singular candidate to fill that need. He needs to sound more like a leader though. Until he does people will only listen to those who blow smoke.

  • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com GILLYSROOMS in Australia

    Congratulations Paul Craig Roberts for telling it the way it is. I could not have said it better myself…as i did not have the time or the indepth knowledge of how your funny system works to write such a piece of writing. I enjoyed reading your worthwhile STRATEGIC advice. I want Dr Ron Paul to win but i can see it slipping away from where I sit in Australia. You are right when you say “Paul should be making the point that Social Security and Medicare are threatened by multitrillion-dollar wars that are funded by debt, bailouts of a deregulated banking system and money creation to keep the banks afloat.” You are right … In my opinion the pure Libertarian would rather lose by scaring the elderly over Social Security and Medicare than realising it is here to stay.

    I was heavily involved in the Libertarian movement in the 1970′s in Australia when it was unfashionable and it took some while to convince one of our major parties called the Liberal Party [our conservative group] to privatise many government businesses in Utilities, Banks, Airlines, Railways and more and they did raise $billions to pay out ALL the government debt, Except they scared the voters into voting for our soft socialist Labour Party who have now borrowed and printed $billions again to save us from the GFC.

    My point is and I read into what Paul Craig Roberts is saying is that the pure Liberterian are scaring voters in the nomination process into supporting the moderates which talk the soft talk but have no real intention of having the courage to cut the budget in other areas where it should if they should win the Presidency. Paul Craig Roberts IS TALKING ABOUT STRATEGY TO WIN THE NOMINATIONS..not ridiculing anyone, BUT in my view it needed to be said and he has said it, so hopefully the Ron Pauls minders will take note of his and my opinion. Even my mother who is in her 80′s in Australia wants Ron Paul to win the nominations.

    One of the current problems is that voters are thinking like the Hollywood scene following beauty instead of experience and a principled man in R. Voters should vote for the best man and his team not for the best looking couple in the Whitehouse.

    In my opinion one of the main failings you have in your system of Justice if Im understanding it better now, is your system which perpetuates corruption relates to the voting in of judges and District Attorneys. In Australia they have their job for till retirement age, so they dont need to impress their voting lobby supporters in their duties to carry out their legal judiciary services but if they had a secure job they could form untainted opinions in determining justice without fear or favour.

    Hope you have an expert to debate me wrong?

    • Vigilant

      “Paul Craig Roberts IS TALKING ABOUT STRATEGY TO WIN THE NOMINATIONS..not ridiculing anyone…”

      Not quite. His palaver about the “Israel lobby” and “Israel’s territorial ambitions” is absolute hogwash. Roberts’ gratuitous swipes at Israel are unfounded and divulge an agenda on his part.

    • Sol of Texas

      Gilly, cobber –

      If you accept the fact that humans are flawed, then generalizing about the motivation for good behavior being the security and permanency of their position does not necessarily follow. Over time, inductive reasoning and empirical data demonstrates that individuals and institutions become corrupted.

      Our Republic was based on upon the ancient Roman Republic. The only permanent position of the Republic I can recall was the “public office” of vestal virgin. :-)

      See: http://www.paralumun.com/romegov.htm

      Cheers, mate.

      BTW — I never liked the idea of fining people who failed to vote in elections as was once (is still?) the law in Aus’.

      • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com GILLYSROOMS in Australia

        It still is law to fine people for not voting in Australia…but excuses such as illness or infirmaty seem to be acceptable, but as one of my friends wrote in a lenghty letter when he received a fine for not voting..”Why should I vote for my persecutors” …and the fine was never acted upon. Many criminals and bankrupts do not vote as they do not register on the electrol Rolls because they do not wish to be located by the judicial system or people who they owe money to.

    • http://google rose

      Social Security can either be phased out or just plain run out one day. It is irresponsible for our government to make people believe that the check will always be there. At least if they would be truthful people, could prepare. People are just going to have to take care of their family members when the money runs out and not put the responsibllity on the government or other people.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Once agencies and institutions are started it is near impossible to abolish them as they are self propagating and self preserving.

      • John

        It seems to me you probably would find nothing wrong with selling suicide kits to those that run out of money, are to old or sick to work, and no other options available eh?

  • http://DoULoveJesus.Wordpress.com Mark Dabney

    It is clear that you PCR wish to see this honorable man get the nod – and do not wish to contend with unwarranted criticism – granted.

    Deregulation should never have been taken as a license to commit fraud as it was

  • http://personallibertydigest Alan Mercier

    Ron Paul is the best cantadite for the presidency and all you have to do is look back at the last 30 yrs of his life to see why.He has more morals than all the others put together. Is smarter than all the rest and has more experience than any of them. Plus he’s more in touch with the people, Young and old and especially with the active duty military.

  • Linda

    I prefer Newt over Ron – because like the ex-smoker or drinker, no one is more likely to be vehemently against something than an ex-whatever. Even Reagan was an ex-democrat. My ‘used-to-be-rabid-liberal’ brother had his own epiphany this past year and you should hear him go off on BO and the DNC!!I think NG has had an epiphany and he’s not afraid to say “I was wrong”, unlike RP – who has never conceded to being wrong or changing his point of view or that maybe he needed to rethink his position. A real leader should be unafraid of admitting their mistakes/misgivings – and we all make them. I think the biggest difference between conservatives like myself (neo, GOP, indies et al) and libertarians is that we have no pure dogma ecept for knowing that we don’t want a socialist police state and to get the govt back into the control of the people and under Constitutional Law. And that is why I think Newt will carry the day in FL.

    to point out a nit…the revolution was in the 18th century (1700′s), unless you mean the british civil war of the 1600′s (which I doubt :) ).

    • http://DoULoveJesus.Wordpress.com Mark Dabney

      Newt does NOT admit when he is wrong – he deflects and dismisses – just as when Marianne addressed his flawed view of marriage – Newt is a slimy lizard – the Machiavellian that the founders warned us against

      Newt claims that 84 of the 85 charges were dropped against him – as though it was not a plea bargain to address real moral failures on his part. Newt is a CFR operative – he is for the New World Order and his MT rhetoric is dangerous when people believe his lies

    • Sol of Texas

      Linda –

      While reading the article I had concluded the author was referring to the English Civil War (“Cavaliers” vs “Roundheads”) from 1625 to 1649.

      Also, I understand that “once an addict, always an addict”.

    • http://orderfromchaos.blogspot.com David P

      So what you’re saying is that former addicts never give into compulsion and fall off the wagon?

    • Rozwaldo

      Gingrich directs people away from his ethics violations rather than apologizing. He consistently defends the dishonesty embedded in his record. Ron Paul shouldn’t have to apologize for correctly predicting the path American society has taken over the past 20 years and shouldn’t have to apologize for defending your rights under the Constitution his entire career. Newt may vote a little more predictably than Romney, but you can bet that he will continue the overspending and squeeze you and the rest of the middle-class extra tight with his strategic targeting of the upper-class with tax cuts. A Ron Paul presidency will benefit the greatest number of people economically, save military lives, and reduce the national debt.

  • Amy Aremia

    Paul Craig Roberts article is on the mark…America’s last chance can be at the 2012 Ballot Box…In each Congresional District, those supporting Ron Paul must unite and make a concerted effort to camapign for him with personal fliers for the news media will not give him coverage unless it can be twisted in a negative manner. Dr. Paul is the only candidate who has pledged his allegiance to the Constitution while most of the others made their pledges to a foreign nation.
    Only in each Congressional District can the people spot the infiltrators trying to run our elections and expose them for what their intentions are…out to destroy the Constitution and the freedoms it upholds.
    Concerned American Patriots must take action. By not voting gives the victory to the enemy. Don’t fall for the same old tactic that a vote for so-an-so (ROn Paul this election) is a wasted vote..if all those who want to vote for Dr. Paul and do vote for him, there is a good chance he will win…..
    As for Social Security and Medicare…they are NOT WELFARE, but paid for by each worker and his employer like anyother insurance plan…By using it for their means, the government is actually stealing from the people,their rights to the pension and medical care.
    The budget can be balanced with a few strokes of a pen…Strike out ALL Foreign Aid money going out in the Billions to countries around the world while the govenment borrows Billions to run the nation. By Congress taking its responsibility for the Federal Reserve, and out of the hands of international foreign bankers, can stop the Bilions paid to them in Interestfor printing our money.
    Bringing home our military scattered around the world in more than a 100 countries will save more Billions and we can have our soldiers protect our own borders….

  • http://www.archivale.com/weblog Marc de Piolenc

    Sheer silliness. For Ron Paul and Co. to pretend to be defenders of Medicare and SS would be purest hypocrisy. Both of those programs are part of what is wrong with the country – fraud masquerading as a retirement fund and medical insurance, respectively, when in fact both are pyramid schemes that have ALREADY failed. The kindest thing one can do for those who expect to benefit from them it to tell them it won’t happen, and encourage them to seek other solutions. In a rejuvenated, liberated, deregulated, de-tyrannized America with Constitutional government, there’s a pretty good chance that many of them could. Pretending to save SS and Medicare simply guarantees greater misery.

    • RM

      I respectfully ask then if such is your position, then anytime a party to a contract steals from said contract (and the other party to it) and the promises made therein then the contract should be abolished and all investment to date made by the unwitting harmed parties should just blame themselves for it and go on about lamenting their parent’s failure in teaching self-reliance?
      It appears to me, and I could be incorrect, but, it seems the point being advanced in Dr. Robert’s piece is being missed. He isn’t suggesting Paul barter away principle; rather, he is suggesting a very wise strategic move….NOT to be defined by others who CANNOT successfully argue against Dr. Paul’s well reasoned arguments, whether on economics, or foreign policy.
      To allow ourselves to be as narrow as those who many readers of this newsletter would like to unseat, is a fatal mistake. -RM

  • JohnnyB

    I read every word of this article. I don’t think that it is a matter of “escaping” the libertarian ideology, it is a matter that the rest of the American Citizens don’t know or don’t care that the Nation is insolvent, RIGHT NOW! The unwritten contract between the social security tax payer (SSTP)and the government is that once the SSTP reaches the age to start recieving distributions, that the government is going to make good on this promise (even though there was never a written contract). I find this intractability disheartening to say the least. While the taxpayers were working, they voted in people who looted and pillaged thier retirement. I for one, REFUSE to pay into something that is all ready insolvent now and won’t be around when it is my time to retire. What is mine is mine, and no person has the right to stick their hands into my wallet, just becuase they can vote. The citizens who are now coming into retirement had the responsibility to make sure that their elected representatives did the right thing – and they failed to hold these same representatives accountable. THE REVOLUTION WAS FOUGHT OVER TAXATION!

    • ktr

      you are right; if those people retiring now have no money and actually believed FDR and LBJ and the other progressives that these programs will be there to take care of them; sorry, that was there mistake, not mine; I do not want to subsidize their bad decisions made in the past; there is no written part of the constitution that says I have to subsidize someone else’s retirement; the elderly who cannot retire should be angry at their parents for not teaching them self-reliance and moral value to expect someone to give them a handout

    • Buddy

      What contract?! There never was a contract.

      Many years ago, the supreme court decreed that SS payments were taxes – – not insurance premiums in any way.

  • Bruce D.

    Ron Paul missed an opportunity to make a real difference if he could have articulated a better foreign policy message. After all he is not a blogger on some libertarian site. He sounds more like Cindy Sheehan than a presidential canidate. Most people do not want a world armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons and Paul’s solution is to say – can’t everybody just be friends. His message should have been reduction in overseas forces and not spout the same kind of mindless anti-American sentiment that you hear on this site.

    • Vicki

      Bruce D. writes:
      “Most people do not want a world armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons”

      According to the Mass Media most people do not want their next door neighbor armed to the teeth with “assault weapons” either. Does that mean they have the right to tell their neighbor (or you) that they can’t own any guns?

      and Paul’s solution is to say – can’t everybody just be friends.

      • Vicki

        oops. didn’t delete the part about R. Pauls “message”

  • Dave Carr

    I’m a firm RP supporter and I believe youe article made some valid points. Often times it would seem, the message could be framed better. While we who have followed him for years have a clear understanding, it needs to reach a much wider audience if he’s going to have a chance to win the nomination and the election. In addition, there are times, sorry Ron, we’re you inexplicably shoot yourself in the foot. The Osama Bin Laden answer just floored me. You can think that, but why come out with that answer? He needed to be taken alive for trial? Instead you could have highlighted the waste of trillions of dollars in occupying countries, where Bin Laden wasn’t to be found, only to be brought to justice by a small special ops force in Pakistan. As a self admitted attacker, he’s an enemy combatant and certainly not worthy of having the right to an American trial. You have to know an answer like that would be so vastly unpopular as to marginalize your campaign and turn off the electorate in mass. I’m still perplexed to this day. Love ya Ron, but please think about the audience, the voters you’re trying to reach!

    • kkflash

      I agree. I love what Ron Paul stands for, but often times he’s just too honest, which is costing him his chance for real government reform. In our media-controlled world, what you don’t say is often more important than what you say. Ron would have a better chance if he’d learn to keep some of his less popular ideas close to the vest. Even though he has the clarity of vision that can put this country back on track, there are too many foolish voters who’ll toss all his great ideas out if they hear one thing from him they don’t like, and his opponents won’t miss an opportunity to focus the light on any misstep.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        So Ron Paul should just compromise at every turn to get along.

      • Buddy

        Too honest? I have observed many (many) politicians who are too crooked, but have yet to run across one who is “too honest”.

  • Stephan F.

    Dr. Roberts, you, like most modern contemporary conservatives, are one confused puppy. I shall waste none of my time trying to unravel your twisted mindset. Good day.

    • ktr

      I agree!!!!! Calling medicare and social security private property is a huge error. It is subsidized with tax payer money against the will of most of those who pay those taxes. Many of the senior citizens who collect that money put in far less money than they put in over the years. I call that a ponzi scheme. Mr Roberts has very little insight in to what SS and medicare really are. He may have some valid points but this article could not recover from the SS and medicare comments. He is also wrong in that the trillions of dollars of waste is not so much from war but more so from entitlement programs. Go look it up. He should have before he wrote this. Again, this article has very little credibility.

      • Vagabond

        ktr I lost many friends and comrads who paid into the fund but never lived to collect one dime of it. and once more THE FUND WAS BURSTING AT THE SEAMS WIT MONE TILL THE DAMNED DEMOCRATS UNDER LYNDON BAINS JONSON STOLE IT TO FINANCE THE VIETNAM WAR,IN 1964. I was in the U.S.Air Force at the time,

      • Stan

        Vagabond you are correct. I also remember when the fund was a huge surplus over anticipated payout until the LBJ years who basically stole the money from the people for Vietnam. I would be willing to bet that the “welfare” comments are from 20 to 30 year old’s that have no clue what they are talking about. I and my employers paid in more money in principle (forget interest) than I could ever withdraw and it is true that many people die before they ever collect a dime from the “fund”, however, there are many programs that are being funded under the social security act where these people never contributed to the fund, such as disability claims and dependent children etc. I don’t know what the fund would look like if it was still a “trust” fund and intact with all the Non-retirement benefits that have been attributed to the fund. Those programs should have been funded out of the ‘welfare” system not Social Security Retirement Fund. The discussion is mute, in that it will never change so we should concentrate on trying to get legislation passed that would once again make the fund untouchable by constitutional amendment so that the LBJ’s of the future can’t steal from it again in the future. Assuming there is a future for this country if Obama is re-elected, which I believe he will be and I have serious doubts that the country can withstand another four years of the Eco terrorist know as Obama

  • John Acord

    Ron Paul has never said that he was to abolish Social Security or even Medicare. what he needs to tel the American people that Social Security is solvent is the government would repay the trust funds the vast sums it has stolen. Mr. Roberts has made a great point and one that should be immediately adopted by the Paul campaign! Kudos once again for the great economist Paul Craig Roberts!

    • ktr

      medicare and social security are ponzi schemes; they are insolvent and they are welfare programs; this is indisputable; I say this as the amount of money that people take out is far more than the amount than people put into it; the difference is subsidized by the taxpayer; I have no problem with someone spending the money that they put in to the program; but why don’t you be honest; do you really think and believe that with the cost of living that people are not taking out more than they put into it???? seriously, the program is subsidized by the youth who will NEVER see that money! I call that theft. What do you call it? The senior citizens can try to justify this to themselves and not all of them believe that this is morally correct. But, Mr Roberts needs to call social security and medicare what they really are! They are not private property. That is a joke and so was that assumption. If they really are private property and belong to me; can I go get my money out right now and take it to my own personal account??? The IRS would laugh at me and you know it. So, Mr Roberts pretty much lost his chance with me as a well thought and well spoken writer.

      • DaveH

        You are correct, ktr, that Social Security is theft.
        However, your comment assumes no compounded interest on our confiscated funds, and does not take into account that the money when taken was worth much more than it is now. If we had instead just invested that money back then in gold, for instance, it would be worth more than two times today’s nominal dollars.
        As an example, the Government has taken $160000 from me over my adult life. If I had just put that same money in Certificates of Deposit, I would have easily earned 4% average on my money over those 40 years. Compounded, the account would now be worth over $350,000. And using 4% as my figure is really on the low side. If I had instead put the money in Gold each year, the actual value in Gold at this time would have been even greater than $350,000.
        As I’m very good at investing, personally I could have made much more on that same money.

      • Stan

        You are so full of crap your eyes are brown. Just give me back what I paid in and what my employers paid in and I will be happy. Approximately, $500,000 and I will collect about 220,000 if I collect for 20 years. DO THE MATH, THE MONEY IS A DEBT not welfare.

      • DaveH

        Put on your reading glasses, Stan. Nothing I said is incorrect.

      • Stan

        David
        My remarks were to what ktr said not you. By the way, I have 20 20 vision work out 6 days a week, weigh the same as I did in high school,don’t smoke drink or do drugs including prescription and I can run circle around most people half my age BUCKOO

      • JeffH

        Stan, then you should address your reply to the individual or post your reply under the posters “reply” button. FYI…oh, whoopie ding for you…

      • Jay

        Hey Jeff, good to see you posting again!

  • http://www.easyinvest.co.za peter

    It does’nt matter who wins the Republican nomination. The Republicans are history, they cannot possibly hope to have one of theirs in the White House. Obama is the undisputed king of the USA! and the American people are his subjects. Does’nt anyone understand that yet? Think he’s planning to be king of the world? Could just happen.

    • John

      Paranoid much? You think countries such as Russia and China would want Obama as their king? How about India one of the most populous countries? How about the Europeans who are fed up with the US? How about Indonesia? This world is a lot larger then most people realize and the majorities of countries do not accept the US role of world dominance. Do you know that there is a strong party within India that rejects the American attempt of dominance and rejects the Idea that the US tries to be the world leader? Do you understand that those people have openly declared they would attack the US first with nukes if there ever would be a conflict? And yet, our media and the government are hitting the war drums with Iran… Have a look how close India is to our conflicts and ask your self how secure they will feel? Obama would have no chance in hell to ever take over a united Russia and China or any of them and India or Europe. Those are only a few countries, but every single one of them is a nuclear country and will hold on to those nukes as long as the US is trying to take over the world. People talk about the NWO without seeing the obvious, there are many countries out there that do NOT want the NWO especially if it would be under US domination… and those countries are racing to modernize their weapons and expanding their nuclear arsenal. Just because we have treaties does not mean that the Russians and Chinese do not expand their nukes… the treaties do NOT include all type of nuclear weapons that are being manufactured. So although Obama may become a dictator in the US, he will be nothing more but a Hugo Chavez on steroids should it happen. And If he would try to expand the US influence or the NWO into any of those countries using violence there wwould be a strong possibility of WW-III, but this time the US would be in the position Hitler and the Germans where in, the rest of the world united against the US… a war could can not win.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        So it would be all fine with you if America was brought down low?

      • John

        Who said it would be fine with me? Just because I state what I think are some inconvenient facts? Lets face it, stating them does not made them magically appear and it will not make them magically disappear if we don’t talk about it. It is my believe that realization of what is going on in this world is an absolute must if we want to get this country back on tract. And in order to realize what is really going on we need to get rid of our blinders.

      • Jeff S

        I agree with you John. The only reason Iran and other countries want nukes is to protect themselves. It’s called self preservation. They don’t want to insight war or any conflicts for that matter as they know they would be turned into an ashtray. I soooo tired of people beleiving that Iran and other countries are a “threat” and would cause “instability in the region” if they had nukes. They’re just scared because all they see is country after country in their region being invaded and occupied by foriegn countries and just want to preserve their soverinty. Just as the United States claims to want.

      • WickedPickle

        Wow! and here we are fretting over ONE Iranian nuke.. Priceless!

    • Sol of Texas

      Peter –

      Based on his behavior, I think Obama thinks Obama is the Muslim Mahdi (but with a Marxist twist).

    • Nadzieja Batki

      From your glee of what you posted you actually want to be a subject of a king. You won’t have to think, or strive, or work, or succeed, or fail,etc..

    • c.w.s.

      Peter, Peter, Peter…. “Emperors” are not “kings”…. Kings are ordained by the All Mighty, Emperors place the crown upon their own heads… but alas, I suspect you come to bury Caesar, not to praise him…

  • AmericMatters

    How could anyone be so foolish as to say private savings are unfunded and SS and Medicare are funded? I expected more from this website then the filthy lies spread by the mass media. Can we no longer trust Bob Livingston and the other authors to not publish trash that is full of unfounded and false accusations? Don’t let this guy wite more of this garbage Bob!!!!!!!!

    • Average Joe

      AmericMatters,

      While it is commendable that you read the article…comprehending what you’ve read goes a long way towards sorting things out in reality.

      “Many libertarians regard Social Security and Medicare as welfare handouts and as Ponzi schemes, when in fact these programs are a form of private property. People pay for these programs all their working lives, just as they pay premiums for private medical policies and make their deposits into private pension plans. Libertarians are great defenders of private property, so why don’t they defend the elderly’s private property rights in Social Security and Medicare benefits? Social Security and Medicare are contracts that the government made with citizens. These contracts are as valid and enforceable as any other contracts. If Social Security and Medicare are in dire trouble, why is the government wasting trillions of dollars on behalf of private armaments industries, a neocon ideology and Israel’s territorial ambitions? Why isn’t this question the most important issue in the campaign?”

      In other words, the exact opposite of what you claimed it said…..AmericMatters …but comprehension matters more.

      • Sol of Texas

        How can it be “private” property when many people who receive benefits never contributed or contributed a great deal less than they extracted?

      • Average Joe

        I never said that the private property wasn’t being looted. When Social Security came into being, it was supposed to be voluntary…not mandatory. Therefore, the money that you contributed, belonged to you…and not someone else….making it…private property. BTW, SS is still voluntary…but they trick us (or force us) to contract with them…by telling us that we can’t work without a Social Security number ( a lie) as well as issuing SSI cards at birth…and once we have gotten said number…the contract has been made and we are trapped. Don’t believe me?…do the research yourselves.

      • Buddy

        Many years ago, the then supreme court decreed that SS payments were taxes – - not insurance premiums in any way.

      • Vicki

        Social Security is NOT private property. It is a TAX. The money collected at gunpoint is even called a TAX. The Supreme Court even decided that it was NOT private property.
        “[197}Ruling: Flemming v. Nestor. U.S. Supreme Court, June 20, 1960. Case 363 U.S. 603. Decided 5-4″
        http://www.justfacts.com/socialsecurity.asp#%5B197%5D

        TO find a lot more painful facts about SS and look above and below the above link start point.

    • John

      Why not? Are you so insecure that you only want to read articles of authors preaching to the quire and what you want to hear. Articles like this that are true also from the WRITERS point of view are what will start healthy discussions. Who knows, you may learn something new reading responses by people that did research the issues and points the man is making. Only having articles by people that say the same ole over and over and that don’t offer different view points will be boring after a while as it is same ole same ole and the same people will post the same responses. Now you call them lies and that’s is exactly what this author is concerned about, the narrow mindedness of people that reject a viewpoint straight away without even to research and to articulate why they are oppose them. Instead to just right out say , junk, lies, and you don’t want to see stuff like this, why did you not make a reply saying WHY you think those are lies? Bring facts you have researched so all can see you have done your homework.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Because of this article you actually were made to do some reasoning and solidify your values and beliefs instead of just a knee jerk reaction and anger.

  • Robert

    You are mistaken to say that medicare and Social Security are private property. If they were private property then how is it that the government decides when and how much if any a person receives. It was private property,stolen by force and lied about as to why and what government was doing with the cash. There was never a “Trust fund”that was part of the ponzi scheme lie. I am over 50 and beleive I know better than the government how to handle my financial affairs. As for the less fortunate 1st if government had not stole the money from them they would have been better off and 2nd it is not and should never be Federal governments place to take care of people. that is a state and local matter.

    • Vagabond

      Robert I dont care how old you are you are dead wrong. there was a social security fund. and it was so overflowing with money the damned democrats under lyndon bains johnson just had to raid the social security fund to finance the vietnam fiasco the damned democrats with civilians making the rules of war for us LOST because we were not allowed to win it, the social security fund has been in the general fund ever since so they can blow it on their pet projects. I haven’t voted for a damned democrat since and I am 76 years old and dont foresee EVER voting for another one,

      • DaveH

        I think Robert was just being a little hyperbolic with the “never” part, but the gist of his comment was right on.

      • http://maxwell.af.mil Mickey

        Vagabond 8:03 am, youre wrong, Social Security funds were spent to finance LBJ’s “Great Society,” that has cost us trillions, with no results whatsoever. As for Vietnam, that liberal, communist, socialist, marxist, Walter Cronkite, betrayed us in that one. We were kicking NVA/VC ass, when comrad cronkite lied about the Tet Offensive, and the parents of the OWC scum took to the streets, and we were forced to abandon South Vietnam. When will we take to the streets and destroy liberals and socialist’s forever? Soon I hope. God help us.

        Semper Fi.

        WMR

      • mickey

        Umm I think that was Kissinger and Nixon. Kissinger advised Nixon not to withdraw from the war because even though we couldn’t win it, we couldn’t lose face.

        LBJ expanded welfare. Under LBJ, the funds got raided.

        SSA was to have insurance for the loss of the wage earner so widows (and there were many) wouldn’t be thrown out on the street. It was mandated at the federal level to keep the banks out of the raiding business. Instead, the government stole the funds.

        The ponzi scheme came in when PayGo took place, the last paying in for the first payouts. Once the last paying in decreased, the scheme fell apart–where we are today.

      • Buddy

        Vagabond, so you’re still voting?

        I stopped voting about 45 years ago because I decided that voting for the ‘lesser evil” was still supporting evil. I realize that at 78 years of age, you have been exposed to the sorry state of political activities for awhile without regret for providing support, but here’s still time to make amends.

        Buddy (a buddy from WWII).

      • c.w.s.

        Buddy, that is a very sorry statement. I DO understand what you believed, but had you voted and just chosen a ‘third’ party, it would have had the effect of showing the establishment that people are active but disappointed.

        One of the tenets of politics is “SILENCE DENOTES CONSENT”. By remaining silent and not voting you send the message that you approved of the way things were going. Too many people don’t recognize the value of voting third party because the media has brain washed people into believing that voting is like placing a two dollar bet at the track…if you don’t pick the winner, your vote didn’t count.

        Anyway, the right to vote is also the right not to vote, I’m just sorry that you felt that it was always an either/other choice.

      • Don

        Amen Vagabond, you got me by a year, and you are 100% right !!

      • WickedPickle

        Wait a minute! Nixon promised.. PROMISED to end that war within two years after his taking over the white house.. It lasted six years later with more promises that he would end the war if re-elected.. I never guessed he was a Democrat.

    • Realist

      As with most government functions, Social Security has been privatized as was the Federal Reserve Bank. Most folks just ain’t up to seeing that yet.

  • Bill Lee

    Social security and Medicare essential for survival? I’m 56, and have never asked for or expect ANYTHING from these two entitlements. However the writer is correct in regard to Ron Paulers needing to modify their idology, here’s why: 1/ I will never vote for a man who wants to strike “In God we Trust” as our national motto. 2/ who thinks states should do whatever they want when it comes to all social issues including legalizing drugs, prostitution and gay marriage. 3/ who thinks it’s fine and dandy for terrorist nations to make as many nukes as they want and hold the western world hostage. Those stances by RP are what make conservative Christians freak out. Just google each point and you’ll find RP’s quotes plain as day. He so far right he’s left on these issues.

    • c.w.s.

      Bill,

      I’m sad to hear that you do not believe in our Constitution. The ninth and tenth amendments explicitly give social issues to the states, which is RP’s position. Socialists, communists and fascists all believe that the people belong to the government, while true ‘republicans’ (in it’s original meaning), believe that the government belongs to the people.

      It is not the federal governments job to dole out charity. The states may, under our “legal” form of government do so with the consent of it’s voters, but not the feds.

      As for foreign nations developing what ever they wish, it is none of our business what they do. Which nation is the only nation to use a nuclear device on another? Which nation spends vast amounts of it’s resources overthrowing ELECTED leaders in order to set up puppet dictators to do it’s bidding? Which nation has denied it’s own people the freedoms guaranteed to them in their own Constitution but tries to dictate to others what freedom is?

      We were once a great nation and still can be with some soul searching and fundamental reforms to take us back onto the correct path. You ‘imply’ that you are “Christian” so can one presume you intend to PUT WOMEN BACK IN THEIR PLACE as subscribed in Timothy and James II?

      I do agree with you about keeping the national motto, but that is a personal belief and not a deal breaker. Selling the nation to the highest foreign banking interest is however. I guess you’d rather be enslaved to Chinese debt collectors… but, thanks for letting us know how you believe. I will ALWAYS support your right to do so…

      • DaveH

        Very Good, c.w.s.

      • Tanya

        I liked your comment, c.w.s., but I did want to clear up one thing. I’m a Christian woman, and I don’t believe the Bible teaches anyone to “put women in their place”. If you’re referring to wives being instructed to submit to husbands, I just want to point out that submission by definition is a voluntary act. If it were coerced, it would be something else entirely. I submit to my husband’s capable leadership and I’ve never felt put in any place by anyone.

      • Karolyn

        There are men who use the teachings of the Bible to subjugate and abuse their wives. I personally know one woman whose husband is very “Christian,” studies the Bible, and verbally and mentally abuses her in the guise of “a wife must submit to her husband.”

      • libertytrain

        Yepper, I’ve seen that as well, both here and up North. Ridiculous.

      • Tanya

        I see that sometimes too, but that’s a twisted interpretation. The instruction to submit is written to wives, not husbands. The part that’s written to husbands has to do with loving their wives and treating them with great care, not demanding submission. When both spouses follow their own instructions it can work pretty well.

        And by the way, none of this has anything to do with whether one is more intelligent or capable of leading than the other. I personally believe it has to do with meeting each others’ greatest need. Maybe I’ll be accused of being politically incorrect, but I believe men have a great need to be respected and women have the greater need to be loved, not that we don’t all like a little of both. :)

      • c.w.s.

        Actually Tanya I was referring to the passages that says to suffer no woman to have control over a man, thus women could not be elected officials, hold high office, be police or even teachers under some strict interpretations. This is found in both Timothy and in James II and elsewhere in the Bible in other forms. We in America have a different understanding of the Bible and Christianity than Christians in other parts of the world, especially some of the orthodox sects of the middle east. Even here in the U.S. there is some very strict ‘fundamentalist’ Christian movements which threaten gender equality. I did not mean to imply or infer that ALL Christians were so inclined. sorry for any confusion.

      • Tanya

        Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I’d be considered a fundamentalist by many, but because I believe the Bible supports liberty, I believe it’s each person’s choice in the way they choose to follow God or not. Unfortunately, believers often do a pretty bad job of respecting others’ liberty, but just because Christians do something doesn’t mean that’s what the Bible really says.

    • Brian

      If Ron Paul’s foreign policy is so dangerous as you imply then explain why it is the exact opposite foreign Policy that has placed us in peril?

    • DaveH

      Bill,
      Where do you get that Ron Paul wants to “strike “In God we Trust” as our national motto”?
      References please.
      I haven’t seen any such statement from Ron Paul.

      • http://wordpress usfrog

        You are right, he never said he wanted to strike “In God We Trust” as our national motto. He said that voting on such a resolution was superfluous. He was absent on the day of the vote.

        “I would have voted ‘no’ not because I don’t like the motto and don’t think we can use it, but ‘no’ because we were telling the states what to do,” Paul said.

        So, please get the facts straight before starting to criticize what he actually did not say.

      • JeffH

        Dave, that is what I would expect from the current administration to do.

    • Chaslie

      I agree. Libertarian ideaology is so far right that it meets up with leftist ideaology.

      • Old Henry

        Chaslie:

        You too do not believe in our Constitution? You think our Founders were crazy?

      • Bill

        Ah!!!! do you round is square?

    • Average Joe

      “1/ I will never vote for a man who wants to strike “In God we Trust” as our national motto. 2/ who thinks states should do whatever they want when it comes to all social issues including legalizing drugs, prostitution and gay marriage. 3/ who thinks it’s fine and dandy for terrorist nations to make as many nukes as they want and hold the western world hostage. Those stances by RP are what make conservative Christians freak out.”

      1. Where did you come up with that one (removing In God We Trust)? If true, please show us a video or audio clip of Ron Paul saying this….or is this just something that “so and so” told you?…put up or retract the staement.
      2. Are you trying to tell us that your elecected state representatives aren’t smart enough to pass laws that benift the people of your state and need the Feds to hold their hands? If so, maybe you need to elect smater reprsentatives….or become a more informed electorate…don’t forget, you helped elect them to their offices….more due dilligence on your part will be required.
      3. This statement is patently untrue. As with the first statement…video or audio of Ron Paul making either of those statements to back up your claims…..otherwise, you are being disingenuous and spreading false statements concerning Dr. Paul.

      As for telling us to “google”,tThose of us that support Dr. Paul….have already done our research….which is why we support him in the first place….
      As for the rest of the candidates……none of the others are talking about the issues affecting America. They are all to busy pointing out the “OBVIOUS” about each other…that they are all greedy, lying, cheating, flip-flopping candidates that will change their political and moral ideology at the drop of a hat to the highest bidder or biggest voter base, while Ron Paul actually talks about the issues that are truly affecting the lives of every person in the nation…and yet he is called “loony”….I truly have to wonder about the average persons thought processes………The choice is yours….Ron Paul or more of the same….

      Albert Einstein once said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over…while expecting a different outcome. I am tired of the insanity…the question is..are you?

      Ron Paul/Andrew Napolitano 2012!

      • DaveH

        Very Good, Joe.

      • Bill

        Hey Average (or not so average)

        It was Albert Einstein who also said: “GREAT SPIRITS HAVE ALWAYS ENCOUNTERED VIOLENT OPPOSITION FROM MEDIOCRE MINDS”

      • Average Joe

        He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher… or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.
        Douglas Adams

      • c.w.s.

        good answer…I had not considered Napolitano as VP…interesting choice, good choice probably, but I haven’t really researched him much I like his orations…I was thinking more on the lines of Gary Johnson…

      • Jeff S

        Agreed!!

      • Jay

        Nice work, AJ! Excellent rebuttal, BRAVO!!!

    • cawmun cents

      In deference to the Fed,it should say,”In God we trust,all others will pay cash.”-CC.

    • Old Henry

      Bill Lee:

      I thought you might be interested in learning some history. It only takes a few minutes.

      http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/9090.html

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Maybe those Christians you talk about should relearn the nature of evil.How about letting the government,in their capacity of keeping the country safe and moral,start tatooing us with our predominant sins and failures? We would then know who to avoid associating with.

      • cawmun cents

        Yep….and instead of keeping up with the Jones’,we can keep up with the Singhs’,or the Garcias’,mainly because we will earn exactly the same wages under the worlder scale.We gotta have less so that they can have more.Excellent!Now I know what the plan is……leveling the playing field.Award everyone with poverty.Raise their standard from dirt merchants to wlefare recipients,and lower mine from working stiff to welfare recipient…..hmmmmmm.That way if I want to light up my blunt,I still have to ring a bureaucrat and ask him for fire.
        I get it now…..suddenly I feel so free!I am living in a democracy!
        One that is taking the world by storm,or spring,or that warming feeling you get when you hear Al Gore speaking.
        Ah the green economy…I’ll just grow weed,and sell it to me mates!
        The Lords wont be the wiser……Meanwhile I’ve got these ripper chinese toys to play with,brought to me by those who own the company store.
        Nevermind the fact that there are many living and dying from sixteen hour days,on a bowl of rice and some crocodile urine to keep my technologies updated.I wants it…..me precious…..
        What!
        You are restructuring and no longer require my employment?
        Oh man!
        Just when I got my fix from credit card mania!
        Damn!
        So there is no work and the jobs are being outsourced to overseas?
        Rats!
        You mean I cant keep up with the Jones’ anymore?
        Now I gotta compete with the Singhs,and the Garcias for a piece of bread?
        I just wont take it anymore.Somebody save me!
        What?
        There isnt enough entitlements to go around?
        HOLLAH!
        Guess I will have to learn what being poor is…..but Obama never told me about that part!
        Run him out of office!That’ll teach him…..
        Back to work again….still trying to catch up with the Jones’
        Ah the life of Reilly!
        (He who dies with the most toys wins)
        Cheers!
        -CC.

    • mickey

      Umm CWS is right

      But I will have to add that the social network was handled by the states until the fed took it over and used SSA money to do it. We had few people on welfare because the state could not afford it. Besides, few would take a handout without offering work.

      It is now recognized that EVERYONE must have this or that. Not true, if one cannot afford cable, then the fed should not provide.

      I guess it is a paradigm as to what poor really is. Right now it is the poor welfare, who don’t want to work or are barred by the system to work, that is huge. Things I never dreamed of as a child is given away every day.

      Wow, such a long posting. I can’t get back to what else you said.

      • c.w.s.

        thanks Mickey…one thing that really “frosts me” is that the federal law MANDATES that prisoner have access to cable TV, something that even I don’t have working full time (30 yrs. same job). Internet is far superior though, so I guess I should not be too cynical…

    • Bill

      Bill, I haven’t seen one as yet but I am told that the new one dollar coin does not have “in god we trust” engraved on it. If that is so, it was not a libertarian who took it off.

      • c.w.s.

        Yes, the “IN GOD WE TRUST” IS on the coin, but it is embossed along the rim and will wear out quickly if the coins are in circulation for long. The intent for all the ‘commemorative’ coins by the way is to try to get them OUT of circulation. That keeps the money still in circulation with some value. Our fiat monetary system really is a house of cards and will be shown as such soon, as the Indians have promised to buy Iranian oil with Gold. This will have the effect of propping up the price of gold and oil crude while devaluing the dollar.

      • Jeff S

        Like I’ve been saying, PRINT MORE MONEY. The myth that the economy would crash is exactly what they want you to beleive. The only thing that would crash is the agenda based, privately owned, war machine that is the Federal Reserve. It’s not who prints the money but who controls it’s quantity is what backs the dollar. If the gov’t reprinted money and took that power away from the reserve we’d be out of debt in no time! Lincoln and his “greenbacks” had it right. The gold standard is flawed because it’s price can still be dictated by those other that the gov’t.

      • c.w.s.

        I’m not convinced the gold standard is ‘flawed’ per se, but there isn’t enough gold. The use of gold in nanotechnology and other industrial and medical uses is reducing the supply. Metals have value because they have some usefulness in our lives…. paper? I still remember the silver certificates redeemable for “real money” upon demand.

        Yes, Lincoln was on the right track, but “they” wouldn’t allow it to last long. Since the war was already won, I’ve heard it speculated that the monetary system and his hatred for corporations was the true reason for his assassination. The “love” of money is indeed the root of evil, irrespective of who gets to print or control it. The Constitution STILL says that states shall allow no other currency other gold or silver coin. There ain’t no way around saying that we are in violation of the written Constitution and we…”all go marching down into the ground, to get out of the rain….”

  • http://n/a Gita

    “Social Security and Medicare are contracts that the government made with citizens. These contracts are as valid and enforceable as any other contracts.” Ron Paul has made this statement numerous times!! This is his reason for not elimination these programs off the bat but offering an opt-out for younger people. The author here has cited Ron Paul’s ideas numerous times here and implied that he has come up with some original thought or criticism! wow.

  • http://n/a Gita

    Surprised to see an article on this site full of such misrepresentations. “Paul should be making the point that Social Security and Medicare are threatened by multitrillion-dollar wars that are funded by debt, bailouts of a deregulated banking system and money creation to keep the banks afloat.” Paul has made this statement umpteen times! Perhaps the author has not been listening. The ideas expoused about libertarians are inacurate generalizations. What drivel.

  • JOHNNY A

    If Ron Paul would talk like a leader ,, like “”I am going to do ____ if i am president & it will be this way we will do it, it’s always ,,”"if we had this & or if we can defeat the status quo,, he needs to be more tough & more direct & get into these people’s minds that he is the only candidate that is for the people , he must do this if he has any chance, he has to get tough , like he was in the 80′s so to speak, Cmon Ron, we need you to tell it like it is & tell us exactly “”in words”" that you will do all these things or to your best ability when u win!!

    John in NJ

    • Realist

      Johnny, he may come across as weak but a libertarian in the white house has limited authority when it comes to a two party congress and senate.
      The would all fight with him politically and if he made such promises as you urge him to do, he would in effect be lying.

      • Old Henry

        Realist:

        What you say is true to a point, but he would have the all important VETO pen and the bully pulpit.

        That was, in my opinion, one of Reagan’s bigest weaknesses, he did not use the VETO pen enough. Congress needs to be beat over the head with it.

      • DaveH

        Good points, Henry. Reagan did use the Veto 78 times, but the rabidly spending Congress overrode 9 of them. He came in like a ball of fire, but his own party members wore him down, notably Bob Dole.
        Reagan’s inaugural speech:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpPt7xGx4Xo

      • JeffH

        OH…not only would he have the power of the veto, but he could honestly deliver his speeches, town halls and address the House with complete honesty, look them in the eye…something that is totally lacking in politics today.

      • DaveH

        For sure.

    • Vicki

      Johnny A writes
      “If Ron Paul would talk like a leader ,, like “”I am going to do ____ if i am president & it will be this way we will do it, it’s always ,,”

      Those are the words of a King or Dictator, not those of a leader. Perhaps more context would make a difference. Example. If I am President I will work tirelessly to restore Constitutional Government. I will veto ANY legislation that has any thing in it that I believe is unconstitutional. I will veto any legislation that contains amendments not directly related to the subject of the legislation. I will lobby Congress to vote to repeal ……… I will nominate ONLY judges who have consistently shown their support of our Constitution.

      And so on.

    • WickedPickle

      The fact of the matter is, ALL presidential candidates have said and or promised that if elected chief exec. “THEY WILL DO THIS AND THEY WILL DO THAT” and look what it amounted to once they held the golden chalice. Ron Paul is correct in saying, “With all my power I will TRY to return this Nation to a more sane Country”.. Once he’s in, there will be a lot of dissension and opposition especially if one or both parties refuse to acknowledge his station (just like the did to Obama) this, “We will not support ANYTHING this president presents” philosophy is totally going against the American citizen.. The emphasis on the hill is ‘compromise’ you can’t compromise when the house and senate says, “Never mind”.. I feel this will be RP’s fate as well so he’s correct in saying that he will try to put his plans in action.. Once he becomes president it will be a whole new ball game and he will have to use the constitution (that hopefully all citizens will back) to get these vermin out of the political arena or else seek and agree to compromise.. We don’t want a Constitutional dictator and with cooperation from the house and senate (via compromised agreement) this will never come to fruition.

  • Vicki

    The OP writes:
    “The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. ”

    This is not a mistake, nor is it the view of libertarians. Government is force. Like fire and must be kept strictly controlled lest it becomes a fearful master.

    Private sectors are not evil nor good. Governments ONLY role is to insure that the parties involved deal with each other honestly (no fraud for instance) Beyond that the interaction between the private sector and government will quickly devolve into Crony Capitalism or similar.

    • Joe Brooks

      Vicki, the US government used to “regulate” enough so that this does not happen, the worst case scenario of government and private sector deregulation and collusion:

      http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory

      Immelt, Jobs [dead, I know] and other such “American leaders” all maximize their profits here. Illegal until Clinton gave Red China MFN. What a great “deregulation” and a total repudiation of America being the leader of the free world.

      • ChristyK

        The author keeps talking about the evils of deregulation. Companies are leaving the US because of Overregulation. Companies have to hire a large number of employees just to keep up with regulations and taxes.

        The FDA regulates food and drugs, yet people still die of food poisoning, they approve of GMO foods with pesticides in them, untested/limited-tested vaccines are pushed on the public, drugs with worse side-effects than the thing being treated are approved while natural (unpatentable) products are banned or limited.

        The EPA regulates businesses out of profitability and is even trying to ban CO2. I hope nobody wants to exhale.

        Most regulations make it harder for a new small business to enter the market because they don’t have the people and capital to comply. Only the massive corporations can comply with the onerous regulations. Regulations (beyond basic honest dealings and protection of property) stifle businesses and innovation and protect large established businesses which limits our choices, raises our prices, and drives businesses off-shore.

      • Joe Brooks

        Christy, I have a friend who runs a small manufacturing firm and he tells me about the regulatory mess he has to navigate, here. I am not talking about that kind of regulation, which we all know is too onerous in the US. I am talking about the policies of the US and what we supposedly stand for.

        “Unregulated” free trade with criminals and looters like Red China, OPEC, India, Communist Brazil, Criminal Mexico, Communist Viet Nam, the list goes on, leads to bad policy and enrichment of evil regimes.

        Some common sense has to prevail.

      • DaveH

        Joe,
        Do you really think we’ve been deregulated? Perhaps you could explain why the Federal Registry is currently the largest in our country’s history?
        Some reality:
        http://reason.org/news/show/the-myth-of-financial-deregula

      • DaveH

        The number of pages in the Federal Register from 1936 to 2004:
        http://www.llsdc.org/sourcebook/docs/fed-reg-pages.pdf

        In 2010 the number of pages were 81,405.

      • Joe Brooks

        DaveH, I am not referring to that kind of business regulation, which we all agree is out of control. Makes you wonder if foreign lobbyists have anything to do with it, to drive more US business overseas.

        I am talking about national policy. The right of the American people to expect our politicians to set policies that promote American ideals, within the US and without. No, I am not promoting imperialism and war, but a return to competing in the real world of International Trade, the world of tariffs, border duies and manipulation.

        The Chinese manipulate currency and have 25% tariff on US made goods, not to mention they are slavers and mass murderers. The US has a 2.5% tariff on Communist China made products. Pretty much explains why we are being colonized by them and others.

        BTW, Social Security to someone like me is in no way an “entitlement”. I started paying in at the age of 15, currently I have paid premiums to the tune of $60K, adding in my employers payments, that comes to $120K. My employer was always quick to point out that they were paying money I would have been paid, except, that my future was being taken care of.

        Would you flush that cash down the toilet, because of a bunch of criminal mismanagement by the government?

      • DaveH

        Protectionism was one of the main factors contributing to the Great Depression, Joe. Think about this, one of the first things a country executes in wartime is an embargo. Why is that? Because it’s an effective way to grind the target country’s economy to a halt. Now why would we want to do that to ourselves voluntarily?
        Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because we were strangling their foreign trade.
        Read this book, Joe. It is free and an excellent treatise of why Real Capitalism (not Crony Capitalism) works and works well:
        http://mises.org/books/capitalism_kelly.pdf

    • El Gringo

      Vicki you are absolutely right!

  • Vicki

    The OP writes:
    “And please, no prattle from libertarians about “natural rights.” The only rights we have are rights achieved by centuries of human struggle that we have the wits and strength to retain.”

    Hmmmm….. You have no rights from human struggle. The founders pointed this out in the Declaration of Independence. If your creator did not bestow upon you certain rights then just anyone can come along and do with you as they please.

    Oh and stop with the argument to ridicule already. This was not the first time you used it in your post. (“prattle”)

    • Realist

      He did say please. It didn’t sound like a mandate to me.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        I take that “please” as a derision.

    • RM

      I believe there to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what Dr. Roberts is saying in his piece. The over arching theme is NOT that civil liberties or free markets aren’t vital, they are. It is that one cannot be defined as a destroyer of something they’ve invested in their entire lives in.
      He is quite correct, social security and medicare are funded by payroll deductions ergo, it IS a private property issue, a contract like any other…It is YOUR money. It is likewise OUR responsibility to bring the government into check. This takes some doing and a fair amount of time getting it done. But to miss the points Dr. Roberts is making relative to Dr. Paul’s campaign is to miss the forest for the trees.
      If we are to resurrect the rule of law as guaranteed by the Constitution and return the chains to bind down the politicians then a broader, longer view of what I dare say many subscribers to this newsletter – and indeed Ron Paul supporters – will need to see a little more broadly the road ahead. Peace. RM

    • Chaslie

      The Creator may have bestowed upon us certain inalienable rights but that doesn’t mean they can’t be taken away. It is up to people to keep them.

      • http://www.lp.org Jerome Bigge

        That’s what the Second Amendment is for. The Founding Fathers did not “trust” a regular standing army that much. They much preferred a militia drawn from the citizens. The term “well regulated” in the 18th Century meant “well trained”. So what the Second really says is that a well trained milita is necessary for the security of a free state. And because the militia is a necessary part of the free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. So the Second Amendment makes sense just as it is written. The problem is the change in meaning of words from the 18th Century to now, the 21st Century. You do need to understand some history of the era to understand why things were written as they were.

      • http://www.lp.org Jerome Bigge

        Additionally Thomas Jefferson recommended practice with firearms as a means of recreation instead of more “physically demanding” activities. So the people who made up the milita were expected to keep up their skills so that they would be effective if called to duty.

    • Vigilant

      Vicki, you are 100% correct.

      Roberts’ fatal flaw is a fundamental misunderstanding about the place of Natural Rights in the founding of our nation. And the manner in which he arrogantly dispenses with the concept would seem to make him a secular humanist.

      The Enlightenment idea of Natural Rights was not some frilly addition to the Declaration of Independence, it was the very foundation of the document. For in the absence of a set of authoritative and immutable rights of humankind, the Constitution which followed means little to nothing.

      This concept was familiar to Lincoln, who rightly viewed the Declaration as the “apple” and the Constitution as the frame around it.

      When a tyrant, a committee, or a government believes that they have the right to decide which freedoms you have, and turns its back on Providentially-given Natural Rights, you have a formula for disaster, and government by and for the people has died.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Your struggle would be as a predatory animal.
      The Natural Laws are what you came into the world with and they are given by GOD.

    • Richard Pawley

      Good point. The reason we are going down hill almost as fast as the Titanic (although for some reason a large segment of the population is totally oblivious to this fact) is that we have abandoned our belief in the God of our founding fathers. There has always been corruption in government and greed and avarice, but God has always guided those who sought Him, and He is no respecter of persons. All who seek Him with all their heart will find Him. The article above had some good points but when I read the phrase “Israel’s territorial ambitions?” I realized that some of the rest might not be quite right either.

      Israel has no more territorial ambitions than the United States! They don’t stick their nose in everybody’s business like we tend to do, and they have foolishly given up land for peace, undoubtedly because many of their citizens are former liberals from the USA. Anyone who cannot see that Israel is constantly beset by those who want to destroy her does not see reality as it is. Those Palestinians who have long lived in Israel are grateful for the fact, but our lame stream media is so anti-Israel that you would never know that.

      There is so much I could say, but only those who are daily praying for our government and it’s leaders, and those who would be our leaders, would be able to understand all that is going on. Until we return to the God of our Founding Fathers, things will not get better in this country, but will continue to deteriorate. This is why the number of citizens leaving this country seems to have doubled in the last few years, and why I am convinced the tripling of prices that will eventually befall us all, will also have world wide ramifications.

      Only if Ron Paul clearly states that he will support Israel if they are attacked will he have a chance to win the nomination. That may not be Libertarian but I believe it is true. The biased media is not his friend but he needs to clarify the distortions that are made in his name. God fulfilled the ancient prophecy of Isaiah who wrote, long before Jesus was born, “Whoever heard of such a thing, a nation born in a day”. No one ever had, and it was not until May 15, 1948, when God arranged that even Russia voted to support the resolution to establish Israel (and never supported them after that).

      Israel is no better than the United States but anyone who opposes them because they are Jewish or opposes Jews because they are Jews, is opposing God Himself. Sadly, the Bible says that before WWIIII or Armageddon comes about, that all the nations of the world will turn against Israel.

      We need to get back to the principles of the Constitution which were based on the principles espoused in the Bible or as Ronald Reagan once said, “We will be a nation gone under” By the way, one of the reasons that the Muslims hate Israel is because a reading of the ancient Bible indicates that the land God gave them long ago, they have not yet possessed and is currently occupied by Muslims, so Israel actually has Biblical justification if they did indeed have territorial ambitions. It’s undoubtedly politically incorrect to say it (but I will never run for office so I can say what I believe) and that is that just as we took Texas when we were attacked so any nation who attacks Israel should be rewarded by having their land confiscated. End of story!

      I like Ron Paul and agree with him on many things but Ron Paul needs to be much clearer on his foreign policy or he will not be president, although I would hope whoever is elected is smart enough to offer all the candidates jobs suitable for their talents. We need them all.

      • Vigilant

        Mr. Pawley, those are words of wisdom and I salute you!

      • ohoh

        Tragically, Richard, you don’t know who Israel is — a fundamental flaw in your analysis. Without knowing the players and real history, we can’t assign just rights and entitlements without putting our foot into it…something we’ve done in the case of our Israel policies for decades. Even though this has cost us dearly, such ignorance keeps us proudly and emotionally begging for more, as we turn a blind eye to all of the blowback we’ve received as a result. Sadly, this is part of the reason why leaders like George Washington and Ron Paul are so misunderstood.

      • Karolyn

        Please, what is “the God of our founding fathers?” I think that God is the same as ever was and ever shall be, whatever the concept. There were those who believed the right to own slaves was God-given, that women had no rights, that Indians were nothing but heathen scum because they did not ascribe to a Christian God. You would like to go back to that?

      • Vigilant

        Get off it, Karolyn, you know damned well what he means by “the God of our founding fathers.” It’s a manner of figurative speaking, and of course it refers to the Ultimate Reality, whatever you choose to call it, then and now.

        The “Creator” and “Nature’s God” were particularly Deist terms of reference and that left out as often as not the connection with Christianity. Jefferson and Washington, as well as Adams and Franklin in particular, did not believe that ownership of slaves was a God-given right, etc.

        It was the Creator-endowed Natural Rights that guided the Founders and helped them forge a Declaration and Constitution that remain unparalleled in human history. The crafting of the Constitution was such that eradicating the ills and evils of which you speak were facilitated by the document itself.

        And who the Hell said they want to back to an age when slavery and abridgement of rights was extant? No one wants it, and I’m tired of hearing the left imply what they know is a falsehood. It’s intellectual dishonesty of the worst sort.

  • Vicki

    The OP writes:
    “If Ron Paul’s libertarian handlers and support base could escape their ideology, Paul could be much better positioned to win the Republican nomination.”

    If they were to escape their ideology than they would not be libertarian and why would we vote for them? We don’t need just another RINO. We got plenty of those now.

    • c.w.s.

      Wow, the first poster is one with an active brain cell this time. (so often the first person to respond is sooo very clueless). Great post (as are your others below). The author basically is saying, to me at least, that if Ron Paul becomes another corporate shill, he’ll have a better chance of being elected. BS. I at least support Dr. Paul because I believe he is honest, not just another blah, blah, blah, vote for me politician…

      • DaveH

        Don’t know about that, c.w.s., but what I’m getting is that Ron should abandon his Principles and accept Social Security for something it isn’t — security. Social Security is simply theft by the Government. First they forcibly take our money, then they replace the funds with Government I.O.U.s.
        The best they could have done would have been to invest the funds in Gold. But even if they had left the funds untouched in secure investments, it would still be theft because they still don’t have the owners’ permission to take their money.
        Paul Craig Roberts apparently wants Libertarians to behave like Liberals (Democrat or Republican) and cede power to the Government to take care of us whether we like it or not. It is not the role of Government to protect us from ourselves. The Government should exist solely to protect us from the Force and Fraudulent behavior of others. And I don’t mean Preemptive Protection for either.
        If we got Government out of our personal choices, and most other things they don’t belong in, we could easily cut the bill for Government down to less than half of what they spend now. That would be about $8 Trillion less each year than they spend now, about $25,800 average per person in the US, or $80,000 per average family in the US. Our economy would boom. Only those people who absolutely refused to work would be in trouble. Those who suffered misfortune through no fault of their own would receive help from private charities funded by a prosperous and generous citizenry.

      • cawmun cents

        “Article Dude,needs a security blanket man.”
        That should have been the title of the article.
        -CC.

      • DaveH

        Ron Paul’s stand on Social Security:
        http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2011/10/24/ron-paul-is-not-ending-student-loans/
        From the article:
        “In fact, Paul’s opt-out for Social Security in his budget plan is age 25—not exactly imminent doom for the program or those on it”.
        But the fools under 25 who think they can trust the Government with their retirement plans can still be part of the Social Security system in they choose.

      • Jack

        You are right. Paul will not throw us seniors under the buss. However he will stop robing social security to support illegal voters like his opponent.

      • Lynne

        This comment makes sense, as does the article commented upon. I’ve always assumed that those people already ‘grandfathered in’ will continue to receive their benefits. ‘Opting out’ at an early age is an excellent alternative. My mother receives SS (converted from SSDI) and is 73 years old … I’m 53 years old and receive a VA disability pension as well as SSDI (plus the ‘balance due’ from my deceased second husband’s SSDI). I wouldn’t be pleased to see either one of us denied these pensions, but would’ve prepared for such an eventuality to the best of my ability. I will vote for Ron Paul either way just to see the Constitution re-instituted into its proper place … first and foremost within the Representative Republic this country was initially created as.

      • c.w.s.

        agreed

      • Realist

        “Those who suffered misfortune through no fault of their own would receive help from private charities funded by a prosperous and generous citizenry.”

        Yeah right! Generous who? Do they still exist? You are going to hedge survival of the unfortunate by the generosity of the Rich? Look how generous congress got with our trust fund! Aren’t you being overly trusting? Today, generosity comes with mandates or it will not materialize.

      • crystal

        They’ve been pushed out by poor morals plaguing our nation and government. Those two entities together are the reason they no longer exist the way they use to.

      • Take on you

        I’m assuming Realist will NOT be making charitable contributions, but would rather the government take it from me & you at the point of a gun to pay for the poor & sick?

      • Sol of Texas

        I see acts of kindness and generosity every day. I also see acts of meanness and selfishness everyday.

        Frankly, there is no possibility of utopia in an imperfect world filled with imperfect creatures.

        I especially do not believe a representative government has any business playing God.

      • DaveH

        Of course they still exist, Realist. For example, just look at all you Liberals who claim to be generous. Of course your generosity is with other peoples’ money, but imagine if your take home pay doubled. Then you could be generous with your own money.

      • Karolyn

        Actually, Realist, there are a great many generous people, primarily from the middle class. When I was in nonprofit arts, I learned that the majority of contributions come not from the wealthy but from the middle class. There are organizations online, like Modest Needs, comprised of regular people donating small amounts of money to help others. That organization started as a grassroots endeavor a few years ago and has grown tremendously. Churches also help people, although that depends on the church and where you live. Some curches only help their own. As we see all the time when disaster strikes, when it is needed, the assistance is always there.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        For all that energy you are expanding in being a pessimist, contrary to your moniker, you should be acquiring skills so you would not be depended on others in good times or bad.

      • bob

        Almost all real charity comes from the middle class in this country, not the rich. The rich give to tax exempt groups which perpetuate the liberal and marxist ideology.

      • kathleen

        Not true at all, we are a generous people. In fact the largest portion of people that give are closer to the poverty level than the rest. They dont give as much, but I bet they give more often.

      • Vicki

        Realist writes:
        “Today, generosity comes with mandates or it will not materialize.”

        So taking my money at gunpoint to give to YOUR favorite charity is ok as long as it is done by your pet government. Nice guy. Realist. Not.

        Btw it looks like in spite of all the money taken at gunpoint for the governments pet projects Americans voluntarily give up even more for charity.
        http://247wallst.com/2011/12/15/americas-most-and-least-charitable-states/

      • Realist

        Cheepers! I never knew so many folks are so charitable and for that, I apologize. I’m just steaming about all the charities that emphasize feeding poor immigrants while there are so many homeless citizens. Anyway, good to see there are lots of kind hearted folks among the ranks of the conscious patriots and citizens.

      • John Broussard

        People with money to give would be more charitable. Taxes replace funds available to give to charity. Paul argues that taxes take money away from people who would otherwise give it to charity. You can’t care for the friend (or charity) that you know and care about if you are forced to give money to the government who turns around and gives it to someone you don’t know.

        I know plenty of people who would rather give their money to charity than pay taxes.

      • Ramón

        OK, Realist.
        …foot in mouth again on the January 24, 2012 at 2:34 pm post. That’s OK, though. Media hype and attitudes have given us all distorted perceptions.

        When I came to the US in 1966(*), I came to the Land of Opportunity and not to the Land of Entitlement. I studied, lived and worked here for many years before I became a citizen in 1995. In the course of 40+ years I have supported my family and contributed time, talent and treasure to American society, its charities, churches and non-profits. I have seen much American generosity. In fact, I thrive in it.

        I became a citizen to help correct conditions that are not beneficial to our society. Our elected representatives would not listen to me as a taxpayer, although I have paid taxes about three times as many years as I have been a citizen. Now, as a citizen, I remind them that I campaigned for them and could campaign for their opponents (beyond mere casting of my ballot).
        (*) I highlighted 1966. I also have been a foreign student like someone else we know.

      • Ann Wilson Kingsley

        When I was a child, I watched my grandparents deliver $50 in cash in a crisp white anonymous envelope into the mailbox of a widow and her retarded sister.I asked my mother about my grandparent’s charitable activities, and she said they frequently helped people in the community. That is how it works. Those who have help those who do not. When my parents were older, they extended charity to others, but for different types of things because times changed, and the government took over. Doctors still do free operations or perform other services on occasion for those not covered by medical insurance. I know this because we had a physician in the family.

      • Thor

        Hey DaveH, I agree with you, bud–with this caveat: against my will, I started paying social security tax in 1963, when the program was billed as ‘insurance for the care of widows and orphans.’ That contract is now 48 years old and I expect the government to honor the terms of that contract and I don’t care whether it is considered an entitlement or an annuity. ‘Course, I’d be satisfied if they would simply buy me out…48 years of investment, plus interest. And, any time you want to get together a shore party and dig up Lyndon Baines Johnson and hang his bones from the voodoo tree, I am all in.

      • Old Henry

        Thor:

        Now yer talkin’! And all other politicians who voter for, or signed, any spending bill that spent OUR money to give to the parasitic military-industrial complex.

        We could sure have us a party! When we’re done hangin’ them we could then toss their rotten carcuses onto a huge bon fire of old tires.

      • Sol of Texas

        Thor –

        At the risk of enraging my fellow Texan (especially the progressive “yellow dogs”) I say LBJ rates it.

      • DaveH

        Thor,
        if you think I advocate Government stiffing those who have already been forced to pay in, you need to read all my comments.

      • Chris

        Old Henry,

        You would have to dig up just about every one of them.

      • Wyatt

        Regardless of what you or Ron Paul choose to think of Social Security , itn is not an entitlement . And regardless of of if you think the government steal’s our money as we pay into it , for many older people it is their only source of income in their golden years . Not everyone is as fortunate as as Ron Paul in that they managed to make a fortune in the business world . We the taxpayers of the United States PAY into this plan so that we will have some form of income in our older years. It may not be ideal but, it is our money that was paid out , taken , stolen whatever you wish to call it . As an old FUD Ron Paul should realize this and protect these programs until a better alternative can be suggested formulated and instituted .
        Yes Ron Paul has many good and excellent ideas, however those ideas are outweighed by his total lack of sense in international affairs and dealings . Isolationism is no longer a viable option . The world has become to small and there are treaties in place that must be honored. America no longer makes products that are now an everyday fixture in our lives . Even the very computer you are working at now is made in some Asian country with cheap labor, as is the syereo you listen to , the TV you watch and the car may Americans drive . And lets not forget the cellphone you text , call and now surf the net with .
        Ron Paul is exactly the name you label others with , a Rhino . He couldn’t sell his ideas under the Libertarian flag so now he becomes a Republican. But he is one in name only and as for his support of the Constitution , he needs to support it fully and not cherry pick or be selective about what parts he chooses to protect .

      • Emoke

        The misleading thing with SSI is that it is both an entitlement for some people and not an entitlement for others. Many people are on SSI who have never paid into it.

      • vic

        You need to check yours facts, jack. Ron Paul ran a practice, not a business. He did many free medical procedures for the financially less fortunate. He also invested in gold just like hes been preaching for decades. You have no idea what isolationism is either. Heres a hint: its not non-interventionism. Wyatt, you claim hes a Rhino but fail to name a SINGLE reason why. Please wake up and do yr research. Its just lazy, not to.

      • DaveH

        Wyatt,
        You need to read my comments more carefully. The same goes for Ron Paul’s comments. Neither of us advocates stiffing those who have already been forced to pay in to SS.
        And Ron Paul is not an “isolationist”. He is a non-interventionist. He believes, as I do, that we should trade peacefully with other nations. He doesn’t believe in gunpoint diplomacy. He doesn’t believe in propping up Dictators just because they trade with our Crony Capitalists. He doesn’t believe in the US dictating other countries’ politics through military force.

      • http://wordpress usfrog

        @ vic
        You are 100% right. People need to do their homework on RP.
        I’m not sure I would invest in gold like RP, but if you invested the money you paid into SS, you probably would be better off in the end. The problem is that people don’t invest it but spend it thus having nothing in the end. But that’s freedom.
        There is nothing wrong with his foreign policy either. If you look at Switzerland, it’s a small country but they mind their own business, have a fantastic army and are one of the richest countries with no oil and few natural ressources. Nobody is invading them. We need to stop supporting the military/industrial complex which is financing these wars to keep us bankrupt.

      • Bill

        wyatt-utter trash

      • Mark in LA

        Funny all these people commenting on “theft”. Social Security was created in the aftermatch of the theft of the free market when the stock market crashed and banks closed their doors by the thousands and companies looted their pension plans to save themselves. Yeah, the free market is always the answer – only to people who lack any sense of history.

        Roosevelt was never 100% for any of the programs we have such as deposit insurance. He knew all about the dangers of allowing private interests to get their hands on government backed money. He also knew something had to be done to get things going again.

      • DaveH

        Mark,
        Why don’t you read this Free online book and be the first Liberal on your block to know what he’s talking about:
        http://mises.org/books/historyofmoney.pdf

        Yeah, I know you won’t read it, but I can HOPE and DREAM, can’t I?

      • The Witness

        What caused the banks to close ?People still wanted to work,wanted to buy things,raw materials were available to manufacture products,companies wanted to produce products,but there was NO MONEY.The flow of money was cut off until WWII and then there was plenty of money.Where did all the money come from,just in time to pay for WWII ?Was it just misplaced and found when the war broke out,or did the Federal Reserve finally let the flow of money start again ??Who,in our U.S.Government,has control of the Fed.?

      • only a vapor

        “Social Security was created in the aftermatch of the theft of the free market when the stock market crashed and banks closed their doors by the thousands and companies looted their pension plans to save themselves”

        People may argue those who tried to save themselves were the culprits, BUT
        The FED ultimately is to blame for the crash-
        And one should consider what “legal theft” really is. Most of the unseen theft is based on the Federal Reserve’s manipulative control of currency’s “value” This is what makes most other governmental thievery possible. What aspects of Marxism should we deem as acceptable? Are not ALL 10 planks of the CM antithetical to the Constitution?
        peace to you.

      • Vicki

        Mark in LA says:
        “Funny all these people commenting on “theft”. Social Security was created in the aftermatch of the theft of the free market when the stock market crashed and banks closed their doors by the thousands and companies looted their pension plans to save themselves. Yeah, the free market is always the answer – only to people who lack any sense of history.”

        Evidence please. Starting with the proper use of the word theft and how you can possibly justify applying it to what people do with THEIR OWN money.

        Here let me get you started
        “1a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
        b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property ”
        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theft

        Please explain how the free market could be stolen by a crash of the stock market, the closing of banks, or the LEGAL (does anyone actually read the pension plan agreements?) use of pension funds?

      • Vicki
      • ohoh

        So the free market was responsible? Wow, don’t even know where to start in responding to such nonsense. Such bent “thinking” must come with a counter-productive, idealogical agenda, so it’s probably useless trying.

      • Mark in LA

        Vicki thinks the stock market isn’t theft. If there ever was a legal ponzi scheme it is the stock market. The best post I ever saw during the dot com bubble on the yahoo stock boards was this:

        What are the 3 greates scams in the history of the world

        1. Religion
        2. Government
        3. Stock Market

        If any of you had any real knowledge of the history of the stock market you would know what a scam it is and how wealthy people used their control of the media to run prices up and dump their stock or run prices down and buy all the stock up for pennies on the dollar. We just saw what these people did do with the laws we have now. Imagine if there were no laws.

      • Jeff S

        The gold standard is NOT the answer. I love Paul but that idea is flawed. That’s because the same people can dictate the value of gold. There’s a myth that says if we print more money then the economy will collapse. The economy won’t collapse, the privately owned Federal Reserve will collapse! The answer by the gov’t should be to print more money and shut down the Federal Reserve. It’s not how much money you print that determines the worth of the dollar but who controls it’s quantity. If we reprint more money and back it by the gov’t instead of the corrupt, agenda based war machine that is the Federal Reserve, then we could be out of debt in 5 years!! Let me repeat….It’s not who prints the money but who controls it’s quantity. Lincoln and his “greenbacks” had it right.

      • TIME

        Dave,
        LMAO, its really very sad how little we as Americans know of the TRUTH of whats gone on over the last 150 years.
        But the flip side is man O man can spin doctor’s spin some really great story lines.
        Kind of makes one think of that old line, {{ if you tell a BIG enough lie and repete it over and over soon its FACT.}}

        Hey – How about that Fed and who’s behind it again?
        Who are the Rothschilds & Rockafellow’s for $1000 ALEX.

        How the fed works – it prints money then the American people PAY the FED Interest on said money thats sold back to the American people.
        Just how odd that all the money the FED prints is based on thin air. Yet the Interest paid by the American people is the REAL deal.

        If anyone starts looking into SS what they will find is all funds flow through the IMF, and why is that again?
        Just who is the IMF involved with, well glory be none other than the UN, damm what a twisted web we live within.

      • MacLoklan

        Fdr certainly did know how to get things going again. He went to war. Before then things were going from bad to worse.

      • Vicki

        Mark in LA says:
        “Vicki thinks the stock market isn’t theft.”

        I do not just think it is not theft I KNOW it is not. I even provided a cite for the definition.

        Oh and the vote is now 3 to 1 that you are to turn over all of your assets to us. We are still waiting for your address. Be quick about it.

      • Vicki

        Jeff S says:
        “There’s a myth that says if we print more money then the economy will collapse. ”

        It’s not exactly a myth. There is LOTS of sound historical evidence should you care to partake.

        https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hyperinflation

      • OldFart

        I know your GD charities!! Their a bunch of misers saying a family of four can live on $100.00 month with church charities for beans & powdered milk for those with teenage eaters while they get paid big time because they managed to cater to thousands on a dime.. Yes, I know ALL about them.. In my youth I discovered the generosity of these so-called charities. We don’t have to have the g’ment over-see social security.. The money is already set up, all it takes is for each worker to continue paying in for their future, privatize social security like you want to privatize investment retirement and all will go well (at least there will be less fingers dipping into the till). I like Ron Paul, I think he would make a difference but not enough to see him and his munchkins deprive senior citizens and the disabled and make them fend for themselves or die. BS!!! And if that’s NOT what the libs are saying then be explicit.. To the point about their idea of Social Security and Medicare and what it means to the helpless.. And as for the frauds, a good watcher with power to put them where they belong when caught will eliminate most of ‘em. Remember, not all s.s./disability/medicare fraud comes from the individual but from the officers that oversee them and the medical crooks who treat them. I’m right back to square one.. I was set on voting for Ron Paul, now I’m not so sure. CONVINCE ME!!

      • Vicki
      • Vicki

        More on his position
        Q: Are you still in favor of abolishing Social Security?
        A: Yes, but not overnight. As a matter of fact, my program’s the only one that is going to be able to take care of the elderly.

        Note his plan to NOT throw the elderly “under the bus”
        http://www.issues2000.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Social_Security.htm

      • Debi

        The truth about social security and medicare is that hard working Americans have paid into these funds for when they reach retirement age (65) because many employers do not have retirement pentions set up for their employees, no benefits at all. Government should not have put these funds into the general funds account. By doing so, has allowed dirty politicians to dip their sticky fat fingers into our benefits (MONEY) and put it into their own pockets. This money that was in the Social Security Funds and Medicare Funds came from our hard working money. For some of us have paid into these funds since we became employed which, has been 50-70 years of our lives. Now these funds are being depleted to the point we can not survive on what it costs us to pay back into Medicade for our medical expenses, that is why x amount of dollars had been taken out of our pay checks each pay period we had work and for some of us that has been since the 1960′s and even earlier the 30′s===40′s. Just like Government has dipped their nasty fingers into the Postal Service Money leaving employees with no benifits and causing Post Office closures Nation Wide. We need a man like Ron Paul to stand up for our Constitutional Rights. Illegal Aliens have all rights to our Social Security, Medicare, and even A Program Called Welfare, and Welfare is not a PART of Social Security or Medicare. Welfare is Government Subsidies which, comes out of the American People’s Taxes!

        We need to get these corupt Politicians out of office…Did you know that Romney in the 90′s worked with a corp, or I should say was a part of the Bain Group…Do you know what Bain means Look it up. romney will still us blind again…

      • john j

        Exactly Dave ! Nice post , my hats off !! Sounds like you think like Ron ! He’s the ONLY one that is trying to put us on the right track !!! I wish the STINKING MEDIA would let his candidacy run it’s course without their intervention !!!!!!!

      • Deerinwater

        Well~ he needs the media John if he plans to reach enough people to make a difference. There is many favors of media John. But like Jesus , you got to carry your message to the “sinners”. This notion that you only need to preach to the choir would not have worked for Jesus and it’s won’t work for Ron Paul.

      • Bogusbob

        If he is so honest, then why didn’t he stay libertarian? He had to switch to repube to get elected.

      • Stan

        I have been paying into social security for 49 years. My employer has been paying on my behalf for the same 49 years. If that money was invested all this time at a low but safe rate of say 3%, I would have approximately $750,000 in savings. I will (hopefully) draw about 250,000 if I live to age 80. The gov’t is definately ripping me off to the tune of about $500,000.
        They call this a “trust” fund and it is handled differently than any other debt in a chapter 11 bankruptcy. It can not be discharged. If this is a trust fund handled separately from all other funds and employers and employees contribute so significantly how is this an “entitlement” program. I am owed that money. Just pay me back the principle forget the interest over a period of ten years and I will be happy to never collect any money from the gov’t, but until they do that, and repay the DEBT owed me, I don’t want to here the term “entitlement” as if it was a charity. It is not, it is a debt owed me by the government.

      • DaveH

        Yep, if a private pension fund manager did the same as Government, they would be put in jail.

      • Mark in LA

        Stan this is a commonly held belief but the math simply isn’t there. The current maximum for the year is around 107,000 subject to SS taxes. The rate since Reagan jacked them up to pay for his tax cuts for the rich has been 6.2% for both you and the employer. That comes out to 13268. They were increased under Carter in a plan to save Social Security but at a very slow increase until Reagan needed a way to hide the failure of his programs and he didn’t want to raise the property tax. So you have had 25 years of these very high rates. Until 1970 the rate was less than 8% including the employer contribution and the maximum cutoff was low. I starget working as an engineer in 1978 and in a few years I hit the maximim evey year I worked.

        Here is a chart of the rates and the maximums:

        http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/content/pdf/ssrate_historical.pdf

        48 (1964) years ago the most you could have paid was 348 dollars based on 7.25% of 4800. To calculate what a return of 3% for 48 years is you take 348 X (1.03**48) = 1438 dollars contributed to your total.
        The Medicare tax is a separate tax and should not be used for this purpose although its late arrival and small amount won’t change things much. Your contribution from 1965 would actually be lower since the tax rate and maximum limit are the same 348 X (1.03**47) = 1396 dollars to your total.

        Wall Street has pushed this nonsense for so long and the companies who want 401Ks as a way to get rid of pension plans, it has become gospel. The problem with private plans is that at various times in history there are no good investments. Without good investments money only grows by the illusion of inflation. We now are “growing” by doing destructive things like importing millions of people who suck more out of the system than they produce and other nonsense like building buildings nobody needs or moving factories offshore.

      • Mark in LA

        Reagan didn’t want to raise the income tax – not property tax.

      • Angie

        WOOOOH! CALLING ALL LAW STUDENTS WHO BELIEVE IN THE US CONSTITUTION!
        The House of Representatives has not called for impeachment of any president or member of Congress for violating their oath of office. Talking heads on Fox ASK if our constitution still means anything. Quite frankly I’m fed up with mamsie pamsie positions that allow for our leaders to play by their own set of rules.

        How about our up and coming lawyers working as interns rally together and start class action law suites against the Congress for voting to steal our social security funds and other blatent violations of their constitution duties. If you want to see those folks on the hill step back and take notice, just slap them with a class action and hold each and everyone of them personally responsible for every vote they’ve cast.

        Money talks. Follow the money, it begins and ends every argument!

      • Lonnie

        Once the Govt. takes your money in the form of a tax you have NO rights to it. If they allow you to a refund be thankful but you have no right to it. You need to look at the Supreme Court decisions relating to Social Security and you will see that there is no right to SS benefits as it is not a form of insurance. They also said it is NOT a contract! Congress has the power built into the SS act that they can deny benefits to anyone and everyone and there is nothing we can do about it if they do. The Supreme Court also said that there was never a trust fund. Don’t listen to the rhetoric from Congressmen but instead read what the courts have said. The 3 major decisions about Social Security were all decided before 1940 and to my knowledge have never been overturned.

      • John

        Mark your calculations are wrong, interest is NOT calculated on the final sum but on the either monthly or yearly contributions. That means you will earn interest on the interest. There are calculators on the web that you can use and if you so you will find your numbers are way, way low.

      • John

        Mark, I just calculated the compound return of a monthly savings of $348@ 3% for 48 years. On a monthly return calculations and given that you automatically reinvest your interest earned (3%) the sum you would have received after 48 years is $449850…. At a yearly return calculation it would be a bid less but still not the paltry sum you have calculated.

      • Mark in LA

        John you need a course in basic math. The way you calculate interest componded is very simple. My guess is you used the wrong figures for interest. To calculate what 348 is after one year you multiply 348 * 1.03 = 358.44. The next year you multiply that by 1.03 again = 369.19. Now you do this 46 more times. Since multiplication is associative we can just multiply 1.03 X 1.03 …. X 1.03 and then multiply by 348. Our calculator lets us do X**Y where X is 1.03 and Y is 48. 1.03**48 = 4.132 then multiply by 348.

        Maybe you remember that old saying that something compounded at 7% takes 10 years to double and something coumpounded at 10% takes 7 years to double. That being the case how long would it take for something compounded at 3% to double? We can actually calculate it with logarithms and we get 23.44 years.

      • Mark in LA

        John you are not even in the discussion. Nobody 48 years ago was having 348 dollars deducted from their pay for Social Security. Go to the chart I referenced. 348 is the maximum contribution for the entire year of 1964. If you want a more correct number, sure you can break it down by each paycheck but the difference is so low it is easier to just use yearly totals to debunk the lies about how much better off people would be if they never had contributed to Social Security. Since the tax deducted at the beginning of the year earns more but the ones in December compound less just use what is easiest.

      • vic

        How many Libertarian debates have you seen non TV? Exactly. Hes playing by their slanted rules:that basically there should be only two “different”(yeah, right) parties. Also, the values he espouses are TRUE conservative values, thats why you don’t recognize them. The Republican party has strayed from their core values long ago. Neo-cons run the party now, that why the GOP is all a bunch of BIG govt, fiscally irresponsible, war mongerers.

      • DaveH

        Actually the roots of the Republican Party were those of Mercantilism, the very thing that pissed off the colonists enough to drive them to risk their lives and property to throw off the rule of the British Empire.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        We have become a two party system as any school age kid can tell you.
        Two philosophies are running parallel to each other and if you break down these philosophies into people groups you will get a bell curve and these people groups can be measured.

      • Vicki

        The two philosopies is a tool used to distract us from the actual paradigm of 0% to 100% government. That way both parties can drive us toward 100% government while distracting us by pointing fingers at the others.

        Good cop, bad cop scenario

        Let us focus on the correct spectrium. 100% to 0% government.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

      • DaveH

        Did he ever lie about that, BogusBob? Your comment is indeed bogus.

      • WickedPickle

        “If he is so honest, then why didn’t he stay libertarian? He had to switch to repube to get elected”..

        Has nothing to do with dishonesty bobbo.. I understand his philosophy completely.. Have you noticed how little funds he’s using to insult his opponents? Not much considering how much he’s receiving.. Have you not noticed that he rarely get’s into the dog fight his opponents are into? (doesn’t want to play their game).. Have you noted that (in a calm tone) he’s putting his ideals out to a public who’s only alternative is to listen to a bunch of puppets whine about what their opponents got away with? (you can almost smell the political envy under their breath).. On the surface, this makes Ron Paul look weak (according to a biased media) but the underlying factor is, it’s putting his position out into the open on a grand scale with the least amount of cost THEN when one of the rodeo clowns takes the nomination, Ron Paul will return to the Lib party with all his exposure intact and his ideals more acceptable for All the middle roaders, the disenchanted Dems and the Reps who do not want another GW Bush.. No, it doesn’t have a thing to do with disloyalty, it has to do with getting his point across the entire nation (something the lib’s haven’t accomplished as a party because their not considered legitimate by these two illegitimate parties) By what Ron Paul is doing right here, right now.. The reality of a libertarian President is more than a possibility.. It’s a threat to both (now useless) parties.. Think about that, then.. VOTE RON PAUL 2012!! I’m a (casual) dem but as I can’t fathom just what Obama is trying to accomplish, I have grown disenchanted with his promises.. There are many more like me.. We as Dems are not idiots, any more than the Pubs who elected GW Bush.. TWICE!! So, quit calling us stupid and say, “The Dems were fooled just like we were”.. Saying these few words (with meaning) can unite each of us once again and we CAN rid our Nation of this tyranny..

      • WickedPickle

        “He had to switch to repube to get elected”.. (Bogusbob)…

        When the Dems and the Pubs corner the market, what are you to do to get you’re voice heard? When was the last time you heard of a three way election (rep., dem., ind.) that was evenly challenging? Fact is, for many, many decades both the Dems and the Pubs have monopolized the political process. I don’t see Ron Paul as a Pub, I see him as a candidate using this monopoly party to put his point(s) across (in lieu of the dems who had no other challenger slated) and when the Pubs eventually bump him, he will take up his stand, already being a known contender and, unlike his Ind. predecessors who always had to accept third string behind the politico monopolizers, he will become a formidable opponent to both parties. To them a particularly burning thorn on their ass.. To the actual election, well.. Harry Truman comes to mind. Voters of Ron Paul, don’t despair the ‘sleeping’ voices.. Ron Paul is unique in what he’s trying to accomplish and how he’s going about it, and as such should not be underestimated or waved off.. You have been warned.

      • Rayma Dorsa

        I once read that a company let thier employees opt out of Social Security,to join another private plan,when they retired they retired with MORE money and was able to LEAVE the remainder to thier families,maybe Social Security is just a part of a ponzi scheme and needs to be revamped.It should NEVER have been put into the general fund. It should have been allowed to grow,it would have, had they done it as it should have been,and also not aborted the future payers…

      • ChristyK

        You are talking about Galveston, TX. I think it was just government employees.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Haven’t you figured it out yet that Social Security was never meant to produce more money for the ones paying into it.

      • mickey

        I think this is PayGo (what comes in is spent instead of prior year surplus). I’m not sure but I think this was around year 2000.

      • Swampboy

        I think C.W.S. Has the right thought on the subject,DR.Paul I think also is a truthful person also but, I’m afraid we are going to be stuck with the same old, same old. to many keep looking at this like chess we are pon’s and we are expendable.It’s just a game to most at the top!!!!!!!If we still went by the CONSTITUTION as our framer was intended we would’nt be in this mess today.

      • Elaine

        He could have covered more ground and a great deal more attention in a positive and supportive way if it hadn’t been for the vicious Ron Paul people.

        People were really listening to him — they ruined it for Ron Paul.

      • deba brown

        the hell with who every this person is the dam rep have mess up the U.S and the rich is still stealing from the poor

    • Old Henry

      Vicki:

      I was sort of wondering the same thing as I read it, but “figered” I was simply mis-understanding what Paul was trying to communicate.

    • Willy

      “This is tyranny. We should be unified in our opposition to tyranny.”
      So, we should vote for one of the other tyrants to be. I don’t think SO. Go Ron Paul!!

    • Nadzieja Batki

      So to win the nomination Mr. Paul should give up his ideology and all the people who believe like he does. But ideology is what forms the character of a man. What kind of a man will Ron Paul be then?
      If only Ron Paul would be as devious and treacherous and a betrayer as the RINOs are and all will be well.
      Stand strong Ron Paul.

      • danN

        agreed!…look what happened to John McCain

      • mickey

        I don’t think that is true. No one has to give up anything–except maybe a label. People believe in the Constitution, freedom, and the US. However, once labeled “only libertarians need apply”, we have a problem.

        It’s a catch 22, either broaden the defintion enough to allow others to join on a common basis or that horrible word remain “isolationist”.

    • Sol of Texas

      I really don’t know too many self-proclaimed libertarians who are so closed minded that they will not at least listen and try to reason with dissenters. Most libertarians I know recognize human nature is flawed and that government has a role to play adjudicating conflict. Is it not Thoreau who said “the best government is that which governs least”?

      Regardless of the communicative “positioning” gambits employed by political campaigns, if most of our citizenry is bamboozled, then we will all be at the mercy of those achieving the bamboozling.

      I love Machiavelli for recognizing the dangers omnipresent to good republics:
      … on the law makers of corrupt republics …
      “But when the citizens had become perverse, this institution became a nuisance; because only the powerful proposed laws, and this for the sake not of their common liberties, but to augment their own power. And against such projects no one durst speak for fear of such folk; with the result that people were induced, either by deceit or by force, to adopt measures which spell their own ruin.”

      Machiavelli clearly understood this 500 years ago. He was commenting on events that had occurred repeatedly for the 1600 years prior. If we are so smart, why don’t we get it?

      • Wilson

        Ron Paul is in a position popularity-wise to be a third-party candidate, and I don’t mean Libertarian. He has his own beliefs for helping the country, many at odds with pure Libertarian ideology. So, I would support a Paulist party.

    • Deerinwater

      These is one of the most timely, spot on, thought provoking theses I’ve had the pleasure to read in a very long time. Paul Craig Roberts has captured my quandary and Vicky in quick time points and frames it so well with protest to compromise. Such a compromise would fly in the face of honored principals and require a “label” change.

      We do want we must so we can do what we want and compromise is a coping skills, a part of life every successful person learns to contend with, both private and public.

      Excellent write up and excellent response.

      It’s lonely at the top, I think Ron Paul is use to it by now but are you?

    • Mark in LA

      No Vicki they would not be RINOs. They would be people smart enough to recognize there are programs so universally popular that they are going to stay regardless of who is President. If Ron Paul wants to remove immigrants from Social Security who never paid into the system, I am for that. If he wants to rejigger the payouts so it does not favor immigrants in the calculation as it does now, I am for that. But this nonsense that private accounts are the answer or that they would all be millionaires in a private system is just Wall Street propaganda.

      • DaveH

        So, if we get together in majority, Mark, steal your property and imprison you, you’d be okay with that?

      • Vicki

        Hey DaveH. Count me in. The vote is now 2 to 1. Mark in LA we will be right down to collect. Be prepared with all your papers so that we may see where your assets are.

      • Tanya

        Make it 3 to 1. lqtm :)

    • les

      Vicki, you are spot on. We do not need another shill for the Republican Part.

    • Marla

      I do not think he should ever compromise his principles. That is what makes him so great.

    • http://www.lp.org Jerome Bigge

      Ron Paul is perhaps the first Libertarian in a long time who actually has a chance to influence a major political party. Libertarianism is a “big tent” and holds many flavors of libertarians. I do think that Ron Paul has some good ideas that should be serious considered. (I am a member of the Libertarian Party)

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