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House GOP Plans To Reject Payroll Tax Cut Extension

December 21, 2011 by  

House GOP Plans To Reject Payroll Tax Cut Extension

With the Upper Chamber on break for the holidays, GOP members of the House are moving to shelve a bipartisan two-month extension of the Social Security payroll tax cut that was cleared by the Senate, The Associated Press reported.

According to the news outlet, these Representatives are demanding that the Senate return to the Capitol for negotiations over the tax cuts. President Barack Obama’s tax initiative and other expiring measures include jobless benefits for roughly 1.8 million people who will lose them next month if Congress doesn’t act.

The AP reported that the House Republicans said they would move to set up an official House-Senate negotiating panel known as a conference committee instead of accepting the stopgap measure cleared by the Senate.

“Do you want to do something for 60 days that kicks the can down the road?” Representative Jeb Hensarling, (R-Texas) said in a statement. “Or do you want to do what the president asked us to do? And we’re people who don’t agree with the president all that often.”

CNN reported that if the measure is not passed in 12 days, the payroll tax cut that has saved a typical household $1,000 this year will expire.

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  • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com GILLYSROOMS in Australia

    Has anyone worked out what the US government value of all its assets would be in Land, Buildings, Equipment, motor vehicles, trucks, aircraft, satelites, submarines, scrap metal value of old equipment, airports, tollways, computer equipment, intellectual property rights, copywrites, research findings, buses, trains, railway tracks, ships, aircraft carriers, crown land, parks, gardens in prime towns,forests, oil reserves , mining resources, un-mined gold reserves in the ground in california etc ? Does the government put those assets in their federal butget papers to show that those deficys are covered by ALL their assets? I bet they dont…and I wish they did….so you Republicans might realise that the economy is not that bad off it cant afford to borrow and print some more to help your needy poor and your needy rich to make money out of your needy poor who spend all their free money on your goods and services….MERRY CHRISTMAS and hopefully you’ll feel better in the new year when you realise you been worrying too much about your federal government finances….unless of course all those assets have been stolen by your leaders as they do in dictatorial countries overseas… ?

  • Joe H.

    To all the Athiests and non-believers out there! Merry CHRISTmas and a Happy new year!!! Remember Jesus Christ, The Reason For The Season!!!!

  • Tired Of The Same Ole Bull

    Contact the GOP in the House and Senate at home, office, cell, Twitter, facebook, MySpace wherever they may be and innundate them with calls and emails until they return. If nothing changes and stays the same next November make your disgust and satisfaction felt by firing them.

    • George E

      I had a similar thougt except I was thinking we should inundate the President and Senate Democrats with messages of disgust. Happy holidays.

  • Steve

    Don’t understand what the fuss is about, if the two month plan is adopted, it could not possibly be implemented, not enough time, the only thing that would happen is an additional cost to businesses to try to get their book-keeping “on track” which means the workers would lose more in holiday bonus’s than they’d ever get in savings from the bill. The “Federal Government” get anything done in TWO MONTHS, give me a break. It couldn’t get a memo out to the Postal Service on how to tie their shoes in two months.

  • Raggs

    My hero oblama….
    He cannot do his job so he blames… WAY TO GO ASSHEAD!

    • bob wire

      The Senate is not doing theirs Raggs.

  • mark111

    The payroll tax = social security payments. If the payroll tax is extended, where will the money to make SS payments come from? Certainly not from the general fund because it has been borrowing from the SS fund for, what is it, the better part of 60 years. The only remaining answer is borrowing the money. I am sick and tired of hearing how the top 1% do not pay “their fair share” of the taxes. I am a long way from being in that percentage but data I found online indicates the top 1% get 20% of the adjusted gross income but pay 38% of all personal income taxes paid. The lower 50% get 12.75% of the gross income but pay 2.7% of all personal income taxes. One can argue they get too much of the gross income but not that they do not pay their fair share. In the top 1% are those icons of liberalism–Michael Moore, Al Gore, Matt Damon, Jane Fonda, President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank–plus virtually all the NFL professional football players, all the NBA professional basketball players, most all the major league professional baseball players, all of the “successful” actors and actresses. And, you know what, any one of theme touting the “tax me more, please” line can simply write a check to Uncle Sam for any amount he or she wishes to pay in addition to their calculated taxes. But, know what else, they won’t because they believe only the “other” wealthy people should pay extra–you know the ones with a small business trying to grow their businesses thereby creating jobs.

    • Flashy

      I know Mark ! It’s a wonder the wealthy made any money under the tax rates during the Clinton years !

      Criminey…just think how bad those days were! Everyone making money, full employment, budget well under way to being balanced. Terrible…so terrible.

      gosh…how can anyone dare to even think the wealthy are under taxed, over welfared, and not paying their fair share burdening us with having to pay for them.

      • George E

        Flashy,

        I hear the term “fair” used a lot by liberals, but I generally don’t hear what they think that means. This term appeals to everyone since everyone naturally wants fairness to prevail in our society. However, when reduced to meaning, we may not all agree. For instance, I don’t think it’s fair that about ½ the American citizens pay no income taxes regardless what the other half pay. I don’t think it’s fair that our payments to social security go into the general fund instead of going into a “lock box” as Republicans argued they should. I don’t think it’s fair that people who pay no income tax get to vote for my tax rate to be increased. So, fairness is largely a term everyone agrees on, but not what it actually means.

      • http://naver Samurai

        Clinton years, baaaaa! Rich and taxes, baaaaa! Full employment, baaaaa! Lies, rhetoric, and innuendo, baaaaa! Chaaaaange! Whe are you trolls going to get some new material? Balanced budget under Clinton? Money surplus under Clinton? Employment (5.6% unenploymeny under Clinto and 5.4% under Bush)? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Talk about smoke and mirrors. Tell that to the millions that lost their jobs in the civilian world or lost their military careers due to “downsizing” under his administration. Boeing cut thousands of jobs and Motorola cut 50% of their workforce. Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Jeep

    Wow…you people are too funny. Most of you are quibbling over something you don’t have to worry about anyway. There are some here who probably don’t fit, but I would venture to say that many of you are in the 48% who end up paying no taxes anyway. And, it is a good bet that the rest are in the catagories that pay little more than nothing. So, what are you fighting about? This pay role cut feeds the SS system. SS payments will go out, one way or another. So, they will have to be “paid for”. The lower half of you don’t pay any taxes anyway, so what are you complaining about? Get a grip on reality…you’re free ride needs to end. To paraphrase the prez, “you need to get some skin in the game.” However, JUKEBOX has the right idea, all this posturing will cost businesses. And, that is wrong. In the meantime the fault lies with the many of you who are complaining about nothing and feeding into a destructive narative of Right vs. Left instead of facing reality that both SS and the tax code are broken. This, in turn, allows the elected elite to play the role of beneficient leader, or dark executioner, depending on your political bend. So, go ahead and fight over the crumbs left over from Washington’s dinner plate.

    • Joe H.

      Jeep,
      Speak for only yourself, please!!! I have paid taxes for the last 40 years!!! I hyave NEVER had a year when I got ALL I paid back. Perhaps YOU have, but don’t project YOUR predicament on others here!!!

  • JUKEBOX

    Any person in Congress that does not want to pass this bill for a year is either STUPID or INCOMPETENT or both. A two month bill is going to create an expensive nightmare for the payroll department of every private company or government entity.

  • Lastmanstanding

    The fact that anyone on this site still believes that any of our current reps/sens sans a few even give a damn about what happens to us amazes me…

    Every time they vote…it costs us something…think about that.

    “A show about nothing”

    • Sirian

      LMS, I believe more and more people are beginning to wake up to the total ineptitude of Congress on a whole. It is a true misfortune that still, so many are blindly committed to one party or the other and not willing to step back and look at the entire big picture. As you said, “Every time they vote. . . it costs us something. . .” that is so true.

  • JB

    Two months worth of legislation – and home for the holidays ? ? ? ?
    That’s representing taxpayer citizens ? ? ?
    There is no budget – for how long, now????
    And a couple of months to figure out what to do next ? ? ?
    Pathetic ! ! ! ! And not much conversation about the additional parts of that 2 months legislation ? ? ? Only about paycheck adjustment ? ? ? ?
    Absolute inept incompetence and complete disregard for doing the job “they” were elected to do – - – - just competition for power & control ! ! ! ! !

  • http://www.TomBlairEA.com Thomas Avery Blair

    Nothing more than “smoke and mirrors” distractions just as in the past.
    Remember, congress knew this issue was coming up for over a year and more or less just wrangled back and forth across the aisle to try to make us believe they were busy doing something, when, in fact, they were doing little more than not earning their keep.

    For the next 10 months or so we are going to hear from Liberal Democrats how the GOP increased taxes on the middle class by declaring the 2-month “fix” as a non-starter. A gimmick that will distract the public from the real issues like the growing national debt, the still-growing government and the horrendous impact of ObamaCare on each and every household and business in the USA.

    I’ve pretty well given up on both the GOP as well as the Democrats altogether. I intend to support and work with Ron Paul and go “back to the future” by using the U.S. Constitution as the “game plan” as the founding fathers determined a couple hundred years ago.

    It is altogether too easy to blame Obama for everything wrong in the USA these days. Indeed he is deserving of our disdain, but the gutless congress, both the GOP and the Democrats, is the real problem: They are not earning their pay or benefits, but rather are prostituted solely to “special interest groups” that make the real decisions with utter disregard for the needs of our nation.

    Better they all (including Obama) stay on vacation…at least they can do less harm when they are not playing politics in Washington D. C.

    At least food for thought, is it not?

  • Warrior

    How many people realize that the payroll deduction reduction actually increases their tax burden for federal taxes? Ask yourself why a 2% reduction in income tax wasn’t proposed? The gubmint had to borrow $45 bil last year (2010) to fund SS. So now will find out eventually, that in 2011 the gubmint had to borrow about $150 bil to fund this.

    Of course in some states like ILL, nobody derived any benefit because that state immediately raised it’s state income tax by……… voila, 2%. So now you fine people of ILL will get socked with a 2% more in taxes then you paid in 2010. This is somehow construed as progress?

    Get yourself out of this ridiculous dem/rep paradigm and get behind Ron Paul. He’s the ONLY person telling the truth.

    • Sirian

      So many of us can easily see through the ploys Warrior, it’s the others that won’t open their eyes which fit into the faithful blind fools category.

      • Flashy

        Sirian…let me ask you this. Easy questions for you.

        If the expiration of the special tax bracket Bush gave the wealthy was so bad…even though there was no way the special treatment could be legitimized or paid for … why is giving middle class wage earners a continuation of their temporary tax relief measure so bad ?

        Is this not a tax increase given courtesy of the GOP breaking its pledges of no tax increases and no riders on budget and tax bills?

        Where is Grover Norquist screaming about tax increases ?

        it will be interesting to read your responses…or from anyone else for that matter

      • Sirian

        Flashy,
        Here’s the problem to the solution that you seek. . . both sides are playing all of us, especially those that are , as I stated before, faithful blind fools to their party. Example, remember when the “Super Committee” couldn’t come to an agreement – devastating – and due to this the DOD’s budget was going to be cut by an enormous amount? OK, it goes like this, yes, it would’ve cut out their 23% budget increase to only a point of a 16% increase. Now that covers the billions upon billions that would be cut out that was herald across the MSM. Although, in simple terms, there was really no major cut at all – smoke and mirrors. Let me go over this once more, instead of the DOD getting a 23% budget increase they still get a 16% increase. Do you see it? They make it appear as if it is a major, terribly horrific cut in the DOD’s budget when in reality it isn’t that much of a cut to begin with. In actuality it remains an increase. The same applies to the other that you are concerned with. It’s all in the method, tactic, manner of application in which they play with it so they can make it appear as they wish – the ploy to their advantage of course. Remember, what you see in this hand is what they want you to see, not what they truly have in the other. Again, this illusion is obvious to many yet extremely mystifying to so many others. I hold nothing against you Flashy, truly. I’m simply sorry that you can’t see the difference between the two. Someday you will, someday you will. Preferably sooner than later.

      • Flashy

        Sirian. I fully realize the points you are making are valid. I totally agree with your DOD example. That wasn’t what I was asking nor speaking of.

        I also agree there is a huge disconnect between DC and the nation. having lived in DC in the past, the “people” exposure the pols and higher levels of admin have is nowhere near the norm for the average American. I would venture you take any member of Congress and say “here, for the next 6 months live on the equivalent of $36 K a year wage” … none would be able to do it. And yes, i feel safe in making that opinion as darn near a certainty.

        But it comes down to…why do the wealthy deserve their special tax brackets and lowering taxes every chance the GOP can get…yet the average American has thier taxes raised?

        Anyone who votes for the incumbent in 2012…in the primary at least…should have their frippin’ head examined. No member of Congress is clean.

      • Sirian

        Flashy it’s a simple matter that again you haven’t recognized. I understand where you’re coming from but you need to realize, accept it no matter how bitter it may taste – both sides are playing the same game. The rich/wealthy pay more taxes, usually in the 35 to 38% territory, excluding any and or all other local and state taxes etc. It’s the loopholes that exist at varying levels that makes it appear as if the rich/wealthy aren’t paying their “fair” share. Taking all of the other taxes mentioned and toss those into the pot and the rich/wealthy end up with basically 50% and in some instances more. You can blame it entirely on the GOP? No not really, as I said, both sides are playing the same game so both parties, in the common terminology, are carrying their “fair share”. That is the illusion they want you to see. I will agree with you though in the matter of “Anyone who votes for the incumbent in 2012…in the primary at least…should have their frippin’ head examined. No member of Congress is clean.” Since that is your view of the matter then what is the obstruction in you seeing through the illusion provided by both parties in reference to taxes? Keep in mind that you could push taxes up to 100% for everyone who is making $500,000.00 or more and it wouldn’t come close to making a dent in the debt well that both Congress and the President have created. This monstrosity is the end result of decades of manipulation coupled to various different maneuvers carried out by both sides of the aisle. And we’ve continued to be, most generally, so party attached sheeple, way, way to long. So many remain in the well massaged herd squawking the squawk that they are directed to squawk without giving it much thought. Can’t you see, that is exactly what they prefer their party constituents to do so they can play us along for as long as possible. Via self realization, self induced questioning (Question with Boldness), research and facing the problem head on more and more people are waking up to what has been pulled on them. Should we take it to the streets? It’s already been there but the MSM, dutifully mastered by the ideological/political arena in Washington and throughout the nation, continue to feed as much misdirected BS as possible. So, the problem that exists within the sentiments of taxes of the rich vs. the taxes of the middle class will remain as long as it is permitted. Has there been any talk of converting to a flat tax? It has come up here and there but has there been any form of a real push for it? NO. Stand back and watch for a while. They will play your tune, then some else’s tune while all in all they are playing their tune. It doesn’t really have a good beat at all.

      • Joe H.

        Sirian,
        The repubs should have copied the bill word for word, except for the expiration date, make it Dec 31 and send it, passed by congress back to the house. that way, Even the bling progs here could see that the prog pols will SCREW them in a NY MINUTE!!! The house would never sign it and would never put an extension onto it!!!

    • DavidL

      warrior,
      I like Ron Paul. Too bad the Republican establishment is now going after him for statements he made over twenty years ago.

      Romney is a liberal, and the comic irony of it for all the opponents of President Obama is that he is more liberal than Obama.

      • George Elliott

        It would be difficult for anyone to be more liberal than Obama without being an outright socialist, communist, or fascist.

      • DavidL

        George,

        I hear you but don’t share your view here. What do you think were on the hard drives that Romney purchased and had destroyed? Emails between Romney and his people and Obama and his people about health care. Romney privately helped Obama with health reform.

      • George E

        I don’t know what was on the hard drives, but I trust we’ll find out eventually. Regardless, I’d vote for a ham sandwich before I’d vote for Obama or any 3rd party candidate which would throw the election to Obama. If Ron Paul gets the Republican Party nomination, I’ll happily vote for him. If he doesn’t, I’ll vote for the nominee. I just don’t think we can stand another 4 years of Obama, especially if he retains control over the Senate.

      • http://naver Samurai

        I agree with you George, we can’t. Its time to clean house in Washington. Merry Christmas. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • http://KenS. Ken Stufko

      I couldn’t get behind Ron Paul even if he were pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold nuggets! …. Ron Paul is incapable of continuous organized thought. He can spout statements of tirade, but cannot create a cogent intelligent paragraph without going off on another tirade. While you may like him, he is completely unelectable in a national race. Elections are always the lesser of two evils, get used to it, and get on board with whoever can get national support to oust Obummer.

      • Joe H.

        Ken,
        Name one politician with a better 30 year voting record than Ron Paul!!! He has voted right to the constitution EVERY TIME!!! no other long term pol has EVER done THAT!! I will vote for Ron Paul if I have to Write him in!!! If you wouldn’t, then you don’t want a constitutional government!!!

    • Jibbs

      The income tax raise was 2.5%, and road tolls went up 84%.

      • Jibbs

        Jibbs says:
        December 21, 2011 at 5:50 pm

        I meant that the Il. income tax raise was 2.5%, and road tolls went up 84%.

  • Stephen

    Yesterday Obama tries to “appear” presidential and demands a one year extension of the payroll tax cut. When the Republican House agrees with him on an extension that’s totally paid for, Obama decides the wind must be blowing the wrong way and caves to Senate Democrats. Well, which is it Mr. Campaigner-in-chief? You’re actually not for a plan that’s paid for? Who’s boiling the Koo-laid in Washington? Reid? Pelosi?

    • Doc Sarvis

      The conservatives stuck on the oil pipeline to the one year extension of benefits knowing that would break the deal for the Democrats. The old bait and switch.

      • Sirian

        Oh come on Doc, “The old bait and switch” maneuver is used by both sides all the time. Take a look at any bill and you’ll find it standing out as proud as proud can be.

      • DavidL

        Hey Doc,
        The Republicans have a real problem…….with themselves. Why? They have a cancer growing on their caucus called the Tea Party conservatives. Anyone paying attention knows that that segment of their caucus does not want a payroll reduction ever, and that is why they killed what the Senate did. The Speaker knew that if he brought it up to a vote in the House it would, with Democratic help, pass. So he didn’t even bring it up for a vote. First the Republicans opposed the tax reduction totally. Then, when the Senate agreed to a two month extension to give them all more time to agree to a one year extension, the House Republicans claim they said no because they really wanted a one year extension. Really? Then why has the Speaker appointed five members of his side of the conference committee who have previously publicly declared their opposition to any extension? Anyone with an IQ above zero knows why.

        Republicans promised jobs, jobs, jobs, to get into power. Since in power, all they have given is abortion, gays, guns, misogyny,and self-serving political obstruction. They are truly radical, irresponsible, and destructive to us all.

      • http://naver Samurai

        Now I seem to remember Obama bin Laden doing the same thing. Why do you attack the GOP and conservatives, when you and your ilk is what is the problem? The libs brought us shyrocketing unemployment, history making debt, lower credit rating, 2 or 3 more wars, forced a healthcare program on us that the people did not want, tried to take away our guns with the U.N. Small Arms Treaty, had SEIU and other union thugs intimidate people on the streets and in their homes, are puppets for the Bilderbergs (Obama bin Laden and Hitlery Clinton attended their meeting), Soros, and other forces trying to move us toward the NWO, sides with Mexico over Arizona dealing with immigration, sold weapons to Mexican drug cartels, had people killed and they refuse to apollogize or take responsibility, shredding our Constitution at at alarmingly quick pace, can’t seem to get anything done off the golf course, bombed Lybia without the Congress and Senate approving it first, escilated the war in Afghanistan, gave illegal support for abortions in and outside of this country (Violates the Hyde Amendment), can’t get his brains togther to handle an oil spill, ec., etc., etc. The list is very long and indistinguished. Next time don’t say baaaaa on the site. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Flashy

        Sam…try as I might, I went down your list of claims one by one. you were consistent right down the list. Not one factual true statement. In a way, one has to admire that consistency.

      • http://naver Samurai

        Care to cite a source showing where I was wrong or are you the average lib, gay loving, baby killing, marxist sheeple that you were before HFlashmn? Everything I’ve posted is a matter of public record from newspapers, web sites, and the news (Fox and the MSM). Neeeeed to be making that popping noise. I did forget to mention that when Obama bin Laden had a super majority in he Congress and Senate he did not overturn the Patriot Act, but expanded and broadened its reach into the lives of the average American. Sheesh! We will people like you get your ostrich heads out of the sand and see what is actually happening around you? FOR GOD AND COUNTY!

      • akduce

        Here we go again. Both parties are at fault, and we the Tax payer will lose again. Tea Party is tempting to help the people of the USA, what is the Democrat are doing for the people? Higher TAXES, and ending of JOBS. We need Jobs that pay good to live. Hand out never help if it as no end. You say we need to loose again, why? Our congress has not worked because of the Democrats never are willing to make a deal that is against their beliefs, even when they are proven wrong! We all can have the Rich pay more, But they already pay 51% of the money the government needs to run. What ever happen to the cuts to the Government spending the Democrats promise us in 2008?

        Akduce

      • s c

        Comrade d, how much do you get paid each month to be a bubble-headed, utopian shill? When your White House ‘god’ grows a spine and demands that Scummy Reid call the Senate back to Washington TO ACT LIKE HUMANS, maybe we’ll have a reason to ‘converse’ with clueless knuckle-draggers like you.

      • Joe H.

        DavidL,
        sorry, but you are so full of it, it ain’t funny!!! t5he progs are the ones that pushed for the death of DADT, the progs are the ones that are stopping the jobs just as much if not more than the few conservatives we have in government. Harry Reid has 21 jobs bills written by the repubs that he has sworn will never even be read by the senate!!! obama has lied through his teeth that he has trouble remembering what he said yesterday!!! WAKE THE HELL UP!!!

      • Flashy

        Doc…it is plain as can be. The House GOP did not want to give tax relief to the middle class working family. They’ll bend over and move heaven and hel* to provide tax relief to the welfare class aka the wealthy and big Corporate America. but not to small business and the working man.

        The GOP fought tooth and nail to keep from giving Americans a tax break. Then they added so many riders to the bill as to have the payroll deduction a minor portion of the overall legislation. that’s two “pledges” broken. One was never to raise taxes, the other was never to attach riders.

        The GOP is sucking air on this one…big time. notice how they’re now attempting to spin it…they always wanted the year. uh huh …sure they did. That’s why they’ll pass tax breaks for the wealthy without conditions, but for us? They want it paid for somewhere along the line. Jeesh …

        Had the GOP stuck to its promises, there would be a simple bill, no riders. An up and down vote.

        Boehner looks like a fool and a man who can’t keep his promises. The House GOP is outed. And the Senate GOP is starting to rebel against the wacked House TPers.

        The GOP effectively gave us a job killing tax increase. SS was not going to be broke because of this. heck, the $1000/family…for 160 million wage earners…would have created enough purchasing (i.e. jobs) to offset any cost.

        Nope…the GOP wanted to wack the true job creators in this conuntry…the people who buy things. And they did wack us.

        Hope everyone who votes GOP is proud.

      • George E

        Flashy,

        The “engine” that causes the economy to grow is innovation in products and methods that improves productivity. That is, things that bring new, and/or more value to the customers of those products. This provides more incentive for investments and more money for more purchases. Simply borrowing money to increase spending by customers for the same products does not grow the economy. While there appears to be growth after this sort of stimulation is injected into the economy, it is not real “net” growth because the bill has to be paid at some point with interest. That slows the economy. Now, if the government could find new ways of streamlining its operations to reduce the overall cost of government such that a tax reduction could be passed on to its citizens without creating more debt, then that would be simulative to economic growth, and would be a good thing.

      • Flashy

        George:

        I agree with your comments. They are quie well stated. Though they would have gone better without the “tax’ reference in there. Here’s a hint, the Right has called for so many tax reductions it’s a tired worn song. The reduction in taxes creates further debt. And if there are any matching spending reductions, those reductions come from the arena which is not gaining from the tax reductions. i.e. Special tax brackets for the higher incomes, and paid for by cutting out programs for education, enivronment or the middle to poor income classes.

        however, what your premise is that a payroll tax break is ‘borrowing’, whereas a tax break for the wealthy is one creating ‘innovation’.

        here’s my premise. Money in circulation being spent on things like washing machines, dryers, tools, make up, cars, lawn mowers, etc…those spur production (which is why the consumer..the middle class working folks..those are the real “job creators”) , and creates the incentive to lower costs.

        Did Apple create the I-Phone to sell to the 1% ? HA ! And if the 99% who are the target market for Apple had a few more dollars to spend, would that not spur Apple, RIM, Microsoft, and dozens of software startups to innovate because their is a market with money to spend out there?

        you could make widgets and deliver them to the buyer at their home. I could also make widgets as your competition. Now…I realize by converting my delivery fleet to electric, i could save enough to cut the price. But wiothout buyers out there, neither you nor I are going to innovate. Nope…we’re going to cut costs, cut labor, cut employees..because the market has shruink as far as buyers…and our inventory is growing and costing us more money than we can afford.

        Your turn…

      • George E

        Flashy,

        I appreciate your response. I enjoy an intelligent and respectful dialogue like this one.

        Really, I don’t think we’re far a part in our thinking. I think the main difference is that I believe we need to stimulate the economy through innovation and productivity improvements, while I believe you think the way to stimulate the economy is through higher consumer spending. I like more consumer spending as well so long as we don’t have to borrow the money to do it. I’d prefer investing in innovation and productivity improvements first, then increase employment and wages to stimulate consumer spending as business spending increased. I think that’s the correct way to do it.

        Borrowing money to stimulate the economy would be analogous to spending more for Christmas by running up the tab on your credit card. You definitely feel better for a while, but when the bill comes due you don’t. Further, by borrowing the money to stimulate the economy, there’s little momentum to keep the spending going on its own. You have to keep borrowing to keep the spending up. There is one exception to
        this, I think. If we can pass permanent (or at least longer term tax relief) to stimulate spending, then businesses that see increased revenues from that spending can plan for increased production and investment. That might get the economy growing, but temporary, short term tax relief will do very little to stimulate the economy. It may give folks a few more bucks to offset some of their Christmas spending or help pay their income taxes next April, however.

        The other problem we have is that the social security system is already running in the red, so reducing the funds flowing into it will only make that problem worse. I doubt anyone really thinks giving working folks a permanent FICA tax reduction is a good idea given our situation with the Social Security system.

      • Jibbs

        It’s almost January 1! Don’t worry, you’ll get your welfare check. Obummer, reai and pelosi won’t let you folks down.

      • http://naver Samurai

        Another rant with no sources or facts. Classic liberal strategy. If you remember right, wasn’t it the GOP and conservatives that gave the average American tax cuts in 2001 and 2003? Isn’t it the DEM and libtards that want to tax, borrow, and spend us into total economic destruction? Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Joe H.

        samurai,
        i remember those cuts. I got a RETURN from those!!! don’t forget that Abummer gave us a tax cut, too!! He can’t help it that he had to take it back at the end of the year!!! I never saw a cent from HIS CUT!!!

      • http://naver Samurai

        I didn’t either, fellow patriot. Maybe my return was made up out of thin air like the Clinton surplus. Merry Christmas! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com GILLYSROOMS in Australia

        I like Flashy’s better explaination and George E makes good points too..but let me add that most of the goods purchased are manufactured in China, Japan, India and Korea so I doubt their would be any manufacturing employment benefit in either of USA or my country except that the high profit margins does leave plenty scope to employ lots warehousemen and administrators for importers, shipping and trucking services to retailing although retailing might be replaced by postal services with the growth of online purchasing of recent times. Let me also point out to George E that welfare recipients will spend all of their social security benefits on things they are missing out on whereas the wealthy then to already have everything they need except food and holidays and then to save and not spend tax cuts or reduced corporate taxation savings. The best spenders are welfare recipients who can’t save and thus they help to create jobs faster first and wealth second as a consequence of their 100% spending patterns. The fact that most times a government prints or borrows that money to help stimulate its economic…it ends up benefitting the wealthy or small businesses people keeping them in jobs and keeping the money circulating whereas the prudent tend to stack it in banks for a rainy day not realising we are living in stormy times now. We have two classes of people living on this earth…the spenders who maker others richer and the Stackers who dont spend so they can accumulate and these two groups rely on each other to get what they enjoy most … the spenders enjoy the lifestyle now in this lifetime and the money stackers who like to die rich. Neither is wrong but each is independant on each others survival and satisfaction. What also many money stacking taxpayers dont realise that even whilst the national government borrows or prints …all this is backed by LAND & FINANCIAL ASSETS it has in the USA & OVERSEAS, which it can sell in better times to withdraw money out of the economy. It cannot do it now as it would be counter productive to remove money from an already depressed economy.

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