Judging Obamacare

November 17, 2011 by Ben Crystal

Surely, no one could be silly enough to think that a nation built on free enterprise would ever allow a group of unelected lawyers to start making decisions about their doctors. And surely, no President in his right mind would risk the proverbial smack upside the head which would result from a Supreme Court review of the Constitutionality of a second attempt to dig nationalized healthcare (think Hillarycare, Cuba and/or the Soviet Union) out of its grave. And just as surely, no liberty-loving American would stand for this sort of Presidential nefariousness — would they?

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. As we all know, President Barack Obama has gleefully dragged Hillarycare back into the light of day under the busy moniker “The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.” A vocal — albeit breathtakingly ignorant — minority has rallied to the cause. And thanks to the extraConstitutional nature of Obama’s undead healthcare albatross, the Supreme Court of the United States has set it up on the block for their next term.

Obama has kept his version of Hillary/Castro/Lenincare on his platform. Although detractors have dubbed it “Obamacare,” the goal is the same: allow unelected lawyers, bureaucrats and other shadowy functionaries control of your medical decisions. And Obama has carried new lumber to the plate: a gross misunderstanding of Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution. In pushing the resurrected monster of socialized medicine (including death panels and rationed care), Obama has decided that the Interstate Commerce Clause allows the government to force American citizens to purchase something they might not want.

While that seems at best counter-intuitive (the Constitution generally enumerates citizens’ rights and governments’ responsibilities, not the reverse), and at worse Stalinist, Obama remains undeterred to this day. Federal courts have ruled unConstitutional Obamacare’s key section 1501 b, a/k/a: the Minimum Essential Coverage clause, which reads thusly:

“An applicable individual shall for each month beginning after 2013 ensure that the individual, and any dependent of the individual who is an applicable individual, is covered under minimum essential coverage for such month…If an applicable individual fails to meet the requirement of subsection (a) for 1 or more months during any calendar year beginning after 2013…there is hereby imposed a penalty with respect to the individual in the amount determined under subsection (c).”

Translation: the taxpayers must pay for the privilege of not paying for insurance. And there’s the rub. The Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution in no way allows the government to penalize anyone for NOT buying anything. Some liberals have tried to draw a vertex between Obamacare and auto insurance requirements. However, no one is required to drive a car. Obama’s own ambulance-chasers have actually tried to hide his intent with doublespeak; alternatively claiming §1501 b called for a tax or a penalty, depending on which judge they were trying to fool.

Lest you think the Constitutional argument against Obamacare is self-evident, witness a key ally on Obama’s side of the death panel: Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan. Kagan, who served as Solicitor General for Obama prior to his naming of her to the high court, has stated her support for Obamacare. In an email exchange with ex-Obama flunky and current Harvard professor Laurence Tribe entitled “Fingers and toes crossed today” Kagan celebrated: “I hear they have the votes, Larry!! Simply amazing.” Obama is heading into the Supreme Court’s review of Obamacare with a guaranteed vote in his pocket; barring Kagan recusing herself — which should happen, but probably won’t.

Chief Justice John Roberts and Associate Justices Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas may well form more than a bulwark against Obama and the Democrats’ unConstitutional power grab. Should they drive a Constitutional stake through Obamacare’s heart, Obama’s reelection hopes may die with it. But it should never have gotten this far.

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Filed Under: Conservative Politics, Hot Topics, Outside the Asylum

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jopa

The Health Care bill is patterned after Romney’s plan in Mass. and the people there are beginning to love it.It’s just a matter of time and it will be as acceptable as Medicare and be for the good of all.The way it is now all the uninsured medical bills are being paid by the taxpayers at inflated prices.They go into the ER that cost us thousands but if they had coverage and went to a local doctor the cost would be minimal.Better days are coming, hopefully.

‘NamVet68

Better days are coming? Don’t count on it! With American healthcare now being controlled by Big Pharma, the insurance industry, large healthcare delivery corporations and federal and state governments it’s only gonna get worse. Fees to doctors even now are barely enough to cover the cost of running an office and pay their malpractice insurance premium and in the case of Medicare and Medicaid the fees are below what it costs to take care of a patient. And expensive treatments for incurable diseases are an unbelievably profitable cash cow for some hospital systems and Big Pharma in general.
Joe H.

Shoot jopa, the state of Mass. will be bankrupt LLLOOOOONNNG before that!!!

eddie47d

VIOLENT JOE SPEAKS AGAIN!!
Joe H.

There’s liar eddie accusing someone of being violent again!!! If you had half a brain, eddie, you would know that word shoot was instead of $hit!!!! I’m trying to adhere to Mr. Livingstons no improper language rule!! Try getting out among the adults a little more, eddie!!!

crisscross

The problem is that this institution, like so many others, has degraded by exceeding its limited Constitutional role, abandoning its charge to remain apolitical with decisions that have destroyed checks and balances and other fundamental aspects of our republic and personal liberties. The Supreme Court has betrayed its charge and disgraced itself in the process. No one is above the law, including the Supreme Court. No slander, just facts, and Ben and others have simply had enough of it. You should too. The institution deserves patriots willing to stand up for it while calling down those who have abused it. It’s important to discern the difference.

Jeep

Democratic Congressman Stark from California summed it up the best, ““The federal government, yes, can do most anything…” I think that attitude says it all…

George B

The republican Supreme Court will do any thing to prevent the President from helping the poor and middle class.

Jeep

Yeah…right on George! All Republican’s hate middle class and poor people! I mean really, all those poor people are good for is fodder and votes! I even heard Romney is planning to ban middle class people from voting! It’s crazy! Thank goodness for the Democrat party. Their “war on poverty” has worked so well. Okay so more people are under the poverty level today than when obama took office, but that’s Bush’s fault. And, who cares if there are more people out of work today than when the Democrats took over three years ago. The Dems care! I heard Pelosi say so (right after she went to the bank to check on her 67 million dollar account.) So, you are right, Republican’s really hate poor people…BTW, this is sarcasm for the ignorant and blind.

Joe H.

Jeep,
Was that the trip she made to cash that 700,000 dollar check from the giverment for the booze and food aboard her jet, when she was speaker???

eddie47d

Ben has just downgraded the USA to an A- with his slanderous attack against the Supreme Court. Since they are “uneducated lawyers” and even that is a mouthful from Ben why doesn’t he advocate for the abolishment of that Court since you seem to think they are so incompetent. Why not just say America and all it’s laws is a failure and shut the place down. Wait,some of you have already have wished for that.You can all be as degrading towards Americas institutions as you want but tell us Ben. If they all suck what are you going to do when you come into power. If you show no respect now why would anyone respect you or these institutions if you’ve been trashing them for years. You’re supposed to be an intelligent author guiding your readers in making RATIONAL decisions but how can that be when you are so Irrational? I know that free speech allows you to sling “Obamacare and death panels” around; that is if all you want to be is a cheap hookers without any respect for yourself or your readers.

http://www.lp.org Jerome Bigge

One big difference between Hillarycare and Obamacare is that under Hillarycare there wouldn’t have been an issue of “pre-existing conditions” because all medical insurance would have been under large group policies, most likely in the 100,000 to 1,000,0000 range. So overhead costs would have been a lot less, most likely close to the costs of national systems. Additionally, the premium you would pay would have been “income based” upon a percentage of your income. Individual medical insurance would not have existed under the Clinton Plan. Everyone would have had the same coverage, and paid for it as a percentage of income in the form of a payroll tax shared between employee and employer. The minimum wage person would have paid about 3.9% of their income for coverage. Those better off would have paid 7.8% of their income. This is far SUPERIOR to what Obamacare or Romneycare does. The individual is required to purchase individual health insurance which is far more expensive than large group coverage. The premium you pay is the same for the lower income person as it is for the higher income person. So you might be paying $4,000 a year on an income of $40,000 (10%) while the person with an income of $400,000 will pay $4,000, (1%) of his or her income. Under Hillarycare what you paid would be based upon a percentage of income. It’s obvious that the Clinton Plan is far superior to Obama’s and Romney’s plans. You can check this by obtaining a copy of the Clinton Plan from your public library. Obviously Hillary Clinton was far more competent at designing health care plans than Obama or Romney.
Brad

Eddie,

I’m going to quote Bens first sentence, “Surely, no one could be silly enough to think that a nation built on free enterprise would ever allow a group of unelected lawyers to start making decisions about their doctors”. What these unelected lawyers are going to do is determine if “The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” is constitutional or not to include addressing other areas of common interest. By the way I wouldn’t want elected lawyers making medical decisions for me and my doctor, that’s what HCR will do to you and I if it’s fully implemented. Oh you are too old and feeble and you don’t need that cancer treatment to survive, even though you have health insurance, that gov panel just decided you don’t deserve to live because you are too old Eddie47d, it’s going to someone younger who can provide to the greater need…

Since the courts inception there has been times when it (the Supreme Court) has ruled in favor of bad even flawed legislation, it all dependent on how each case is presented and how each side can make their point relevant to said case. What the SC is undertaking is whether parts of the patient protection and care act are constitutional or not.

What makes Ben irrational is the fact he takes his time to research his subject and carefully writes to antagonize all you liberal hacks, I get his point and so do the majority of posters on this blog. Sure we each have our disagreements, but you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Let’s look at another fact to the upcoming SC review, Elana Kagan, she has inside information concerning this legislation she was involved with its draft while the solicitor general, she should recues herself from this hearing. I can see what you are thinking, Clarence Thomas should recues himself, why, because of his wife, was Clarence Thomas involved with the writing of the law was he asked to provide any insight to its legal standing was he ever involved in its drafting, any shape form or fashion… Answer those questions in your reply back and let’s see if they hold water…

eddie47d

If either of us wants to deny either Kagan or Thomas a chance to vote on an issue then maybe the S C is no longer valid. Thomas has been involved with the Koch brothers so does he have to recuse himself every time a business decision come up on the Court. Actually having knowledge on an issue would be better than having no knowledge. Right now that decision on the Judges is more of a toss up and I don’t have enough inside information to make that judgement. I still don’t like your inference that I’d be tossed aside to die under This Plan. That only plays to the fearful and we know who they are.
Joe H.

yes eddie,
Get out of the way, you are too old to take proper care of your grandkid!! He should be in day care so somebody younger can get a new job and cause the unemployment rate to decrease!!! While you’re at it, check yourself into a nursing home, that way they might be able to hire a couple of new young jerks to take care of you. Of course, when they take your savings and house to pay for it they might be able to hire THREE!!! HEY, your daughter didn’t really NEED all that stuff you wanted to leave her!!! Why, the government in it’s infinite wisdom will make better use of all that!!! Sound good to you bubba???
eddie47d

Good old Joe always the Jerk of the family! If you have realized over the many months very few comment here after 7pm. So you are basically being a smartazz without any one challenging you. Must be pretty nice to blow smoke out of your azz without anyone to respond to you very often . What a dip always playing it safe but I’m sure it inflates your ego every night or maybe you like to babble to yourself!
Joe H.

gee eddie look at the time on your comment!!!! after TEN!!! Take your no doze???

Julian

We have had death panels for years. They are call private insurance companies. They deny you health care if it cost them too much. After all the insurance company executives have to maintain their multi-million dollar lifestyles and if the underlings have to die so be it.

For insurance companies too make themselves look good, they bribe or I mean donate to Congressmen and supply them with insurance lobbyist as staff adviser and have them put in insurance lobbyist in charge to mess up departments so they become less effective and then these bribed congressmen votes to cut funding and staffing to those departments so everyone can complain how ineffective government is then we can replace government with corporate dictators who think corporations are people and people are property that can be disposed of.
cae

First of all they lied when they said it would not affect medicare money as they have already taken millions from medicare to pay for this. Secondly it is easy to say you must have health insurance and that the unemployed and underemployed will receive assistance. However unless you mean by assistance that they will get free medical they simply cannot afford to pay anything at all. Then you threaten then with a penalty which is just as stupid as they will not be able to afford to pay a penalty either. If medicare is an example people, let me tell you its not so great. My hub has huge balloon feet so cannot even get socks on and needs surgery to correct this, but medicare rules require he wear support stockings for 1 year first…ok..so if he can t even get socks on how is he supposed to get the support hose on? Thats what everyone will be facing…you need treatment or surgery…well try this for 1 year first and at the end of that year if you are still alive we will consider the surgery

Kris

CAE: Hussain took 500 BILLION WITH A B, out of medicare and the super committee wants to take another 600 BILLION WITH A B out of medicare. They are reducing the pay to medicare doctors so very few if any doctors will take medicare patients. In the deathcare bill, once you reach 75 and get cancer, no treatments for you, just pain pills! The deathcare bill also calls for all Americans to be chipped, like your pets, 3 years after the deathcare bill is in full effect! If you can afford treatments that the govt. deny you, you will NOT be able to pay for them yourself either! The deathcare bill also gives the govt. access to you bank accounts so they can take your money without you even knowing about it until you get a call from your bank telling you that you are over drawn after you write a check! The deathcare bill was meant to kill off seniors and the disabled while giving the best of care to illegals and welfare bunnies who never worked or paid a dime to the govt. Your life for their health!!!! You get the death penalty without the benefit or right of a trial!
http://www.lp.org Jerome Bigge

Where does this economic assistance to pay for health insurance come from? We are talking hundreds of billions of dollars a year here. And putting everyone at the minimum wage level or below on Medicaid also will cost billions. Where does this money come from? Obviously there are only two sources: The taxpayers or deficit spending.

Compare this to the Clinton Plan which was designed by non-politicians. Fiancing is done through the payroll tax like we pay for Social Security and Medicare. Everyone with an income pays in. What you pay is determined by your income. You have a choice of plans, all large group plans, ranging from HMO’s to “any doctor fee for service” plans. A better choice than Obamacare will give you.

I voted for Mrs. Clinton in 2008 just because she had proved that she was competent back when her husband was President. Compare the Clinton Plan to the Obama and Romney Plans. She did it RIGHT! Obama and Romney both let the US health care industry do it for them! Which is why their plans STINK!

Joe H.

Jerome Bigge,
If you would vote for ms clintoon, then you are not part of the solution, you are part of the PROBLEM!!! If you can’t see how much of a pair of crooks her n her hubby are then you need to turn the lights on!!

‘NamVet68

You cannot trust the government. It may be comprised of a bunch of basically honest, reasonable and intelligent people. But our history shows that when they get together as a legislative body, they behave neither honestly, reasonably or intelligently. Consider Social Security as an example.

When first proposed by F.D.R, the Social Security (FICA) Program was to be voluntary. It didn’t stay voluntary. Initially, participants paid only 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual incomes into the Program, it’s now 7.65% on the first $90,000. FICA “contributions” used to be tax deductible. But not now! Money was supposed to be put into an independent ‘Trust Fund’ (not the general operating fund) and used only for the Social Security Retirement Program. Under Lyndon Johnson the money was moved to the general operating fund and spent. The government once promised that annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income. Now 85% of your Social Security income can be taxed – money we paid to the Federal government to ‘put away’ (Thanks Bill and Al). And now our President and some in Congress include Social Security as an “entitlement”. Well I guess it has become one when new immigrants and life-long welfare recipients receive Social Security payments when they turn 65 even though they may never have paid anything into it!

If they can do this with social security, imaging what they’ll do with healthcare once they get their hooks into it. In the proposal under review and contention, people will be forced to buy health insurance from private companies. This was political acquiescence to the insurance industry and Big Pharma made, no doubt, for their “support” (read: re-election campaign contributions). But watch: American medical care will become “too expensive” (if it isn’t already) and health insurance premiums will go up. The hue and cry from eligible voters will support a government insurance plan (the public option). This will draw young and healthy people into the government plan, leaving only the sick and disease prone paying ever increasing insurance premiums as the insurance industry fights to cover its losses and maintain their profits. More and more people will opt for the government plan, the costs will skyrocket, bureaucracy oversight will become oppressive and Voi-la: welcome to socialized medicine.

Payments to doctors and hospitals will decrease (or at least not keep place with inflation); care will initially be delivered by idealists who, after dealing with the government and realizing that they need to send their kids to college, will leave the profession for administrative, research or jobs with Big Pharma, etc. This will leave the delivery of healthcare to the greedy and inept who will spend 2 minutes on each patient in an assembly-line operation, dump the work on lower paid nurse practitioners or physicians assistants as they submit “service”-padded, fraudulent bills to the government to puff up their income. Many others will take full time jobs with for-profit medical institutions because under Medicare, Tricare, Medicaid and new Government-Sponsored reimbursement schemes there is no way that private practitioners can even pay the overhead necessary to run an office. But I also predict a short life-expectancy to these for-profit institutions also.

Welcome to socialized medicine ladies and gentlemen! As they say: “If you like the way the Post Office or the DMV works, you’re gonna LOVE socialized medicine!”
Thomas B

We must all remember that Americans have always risen to the occasion. Yes the govt has grown scarily out of control, but we can always get out the hedge trimmers and cut it back. It may take work and intestinal fortitude. We may have to surgically remove some of the bigger critters or their assistants. If we want to remain free we will fight them tooth and nail, even IRA terrorist style where they are blown up after one of their self indulgent power lunches. We can be more ruthless than the critters could ever be, because we have guts, whereas they are just sneaky cowards. We should take great joy in taking them out if necessary because it has to be us over them, and we could never settle for less!
Lost in Paradise

The only comment I have, is this. Stand up and fight like your life depended on it you frikken cowards. This is the real deal, and we really are losing our country and our republic, along with the U.S. constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

You can whine a cry, and argue all you want, but that will not get it done. You will need to put it all on the line, and that means your life, your assets, and your dog. You can bet your sorry asses, that Obama will be re-elected. Now is your chance to really be somebody, and stand up and fight for something worth fighting for. LIBERTY!
Ashley

Just curious how you all feel about what Mitt Romney did with his “RomneyCare”.Very similar to Obama’s plan, thoughts please?
Dagger

ObummerCare may be the apparatus that brings down this nation which is the goal that obummer has in mind. To change America from a democracy to a socialist country would in essence bring it down. Socialism does not work, we have witnessed what trnaspired in the former USSR and in Red China; they both have adopted an economic system based squarely on capitalism. Russia has thrown of the schackles of Communism(socialism) and Red China may yet do the same. We have already lost so may freedoms and liberties that our nation’s name should be changed to reflect that fact:
New name: United Socialist States of America
Cynthia

I have no doubt John Roberts and Associate Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas will find Obamacare unconstitutional. Anthony Kennedy is the one I’m worried about! If the government can force us into buying something, there is no limit to its power, and our Constitution is dead! We can kiss our Constitutional Reputlic good-bye! I’m praying Kennedy will do the right thing and deem it un-Constitutional! If the court sides with Obama, the GOP can repeal the law when they gain the majority in the Senate after the 2012 elections. The majority of Americans are against it, and the monstrosity MUST be destroyed!!
http://www.motorcarsfinancial.com Brad

CP unfortuanately you are exactly the perfect citizen for OBAMA. Liberals thrive on your weakness. They are entensionally trying to break you down and work you to the bone so you will soon have no choice but to cave into the big government save me tactics. You need to take that broken dog feel sorry for yourself emotions that are killing your spirit and turn them into pissed off do something about action. If you do not VOTE, you are among the ignorant of the cause
Monte

This isn’t about healthcare. It’s about limited government – a general government whose powers are limited to only those enumerated within the Constitution. If they can do this, they are totally unrestrained and can make laws regarding anything. This is where we say goodbye to our traditional rule of law and hello to the out-of-control dictatorships that have ruled elsewhere on the globe and throughout history, where human life is of no value whatsoever. Once we jump through that hoop, there will be no coming back. Those behind this are enemies of America and the American people. Forget Iran, North Korea, and China. The axis of evil is in Washington.

Thomas B

The American people will win at the voting booth and trash the smoke and mirror obama administrtion, which is more illusion than substance and which can be easily killed with cutting the source of the vine.

http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

Obama is only a pawn. When was the last time you can honestly say that an election changed the course of government in a meaningful, lasting way? Even under Reagan the government grew. How long will we be duped by these “conservative” candidates who only conserve the Republican version of big government? How much different would say, Romney be? Sure, he will provide some temporary confidence in the markets, and in industry….but will he actually change any of the core causes of our discontent? Not likely. As a matter of fact he has all but said government will continue to dominate, just a little less blatantly.

I don’t believe most Americans are ready for real lasting changes yet. We (even “conservatives”) are comfortable with the size and scope of government today. They just want to “tweak” it a little and pretend it will get better under the next guy.Just like it did last time, and the time before that…..right?
Monte

I agree with you Patriot1776. Once our complacency lets the door slam behind us, we won’t get anything we’ve lost back without a bloody revolution. What’s so distressing and alarming is that this ia a blatant, in-your-face attempt at totalitarian control. As some of the commentaries here show, many are sheep ready to be led blindly to the slaughter.

http://personallibertydigest Lyle McDaniell

The commie desire to be taken care of has truely overtaken the non thinkers of this country.Just claim something is free and you have a following. What idiots. zombies.Incapable of making a sound choice.

Brian

You hit the nail on the head…
Joe H.

Lyle M.
Actually, it’s an allergy!! they are allergic to the two words PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!

dbtexas

I subscribed to this site accidentally, lured by curiosity. I have hung around awhile just to see what kind of people subscribed to this promotion of fear mongering and conspiracy theories. Simply amazing! Raggs is an idiot! CP makes a rational response and is pilloried for it. Healthcare in the US is a wreck for a substantial portion of our citizenry. My son is a successful independent artist. His insurance was through hi wife’s work. She was laid off two weeks before their first child was born. Ever try to get insurance in that scenario? He found a policy for $780.00 per month, with a ten thousand dollar deductible. My daughter miscarried, losing a precious child. Because it was an emergency she went to the nearest hospital. Her insurance company determined that facility was not in their network and refused to pay. They were stuck with twenty-five thousand dollars in expenses and they had insurance! I would love for all you haters to go live where you are “completely” responsible for your own ell being and leave the sensible folks that understand we are on this planet together alone. I’m done with the lunacy of this site.

Thomas B

dbtexas, what you don’t realize is that the communist takeover in our country is being done incrementally and sneakily. The healthcare that obama is pushing will be the cornerstone of the governments’ full intrusion into our lives through which they can do numerous abusive things to us. It is the foundation of their planned dictatorship. If you don’t see this I hope you do now. If you don’t agree with this you are blind or the enemy. Those of us who are Americans by faith and tradition know the communist infiltration is happening. If you are sympathetic to them, you are in our way.
Raggs

And I suppose that you believe that the government is going to come in and rescue you and your family?… Just wait until they demand to you what you can and cannot eat, drink, smoke or anything else that they deem is a health risk… The government WAS not and NEVER has been designed to have this much control over the people… They will take our guns by telling us that guns are a potential accident just look at the new law that oblama is working on now that will stop target practice on public land “because it is too loud”… Look at how often that this pig is putting his feet into the public school system cafeterias demanding what they can and cannot serve as food… You are a very mis-guided person, I suggest that you wake up and do some research and learn something but I doubt that you ever will.
texastwin827

dbtexas…are you telling me that you nor none of your family knew she was eligible to continue her insurance under COBRA? Granted, the employee has to pay their portion as well as what the company was paying, however, the coverage remains the SAME as what she had, during her employment. Most likely, her COBRA premiums would have been less than what her husband found and definitely would not have been a 10K deductible!

As for the story about the hospital bill…I had no insurance in June,2010 and was 1 1/2 mos away from being covered by Medicare. Had a heart attack..The artery to the left ventricle (aka “widow maker”) was 95% blocked. I too was taken to the nearest hospital, instead of the county hospital. While the hospital “wrote off” 2/3 of the bill (that started out at $61K), I was left with well over 40K owing, between the hospital and doctors…all to be paid from the large income of $1176 a month (after Medicare comes out), that I have.

Would I have benefited from Obamacare…maybe..maybe not. What you and those who support Obamacare do not seem to know is that some government employee can DENY the doctor authorization for treatment. If he goes ahead and treats you and commits this “offense” three times, the government can FILE CHARGES AGAINST HIM!

Do you see the implications of this? Say one of your children has a child born, as my niece had, without all or a limited amount of their left ventricle to their heart. Children with this condition usually die within the first month, if they don’t receive heart surgery. They eventually require at least two more surgeries, as follow up, as their bodies grow. (Thankfully, my nieces son is a patient at Texas Children’s Hospital, in Houston..where the top 3 children’s heart surgeons practice).

Given the seriousness of this condition and the prospect that a child will require a minimum of at least two more surgeries, plus eventually a heart transplant, do you really trust the govt to do what is right? Or, due to the extremely high costs of the surgeries, can you be sure they would not deny coverage for the first surgery and let the child die?

By the way, my niece’s son just celebrated his FOURTEENTH birthday, in Mar of this year and, so far, has done well thanks to his mother who went back to college and got her RN. I have to wonder if Obamacare would have allowed him to live.
Joe H.

dbtexas,
I had the same thing happen to me on my first kid! I simply got in touch with the insurance company and paid the premium and they covered the birth AND post partum treatment!! The child was covered as well. yes, it cost me 350 a month, but the alternative was worse!!

Raggs

I believe that if the court upholds this the American citizens have a resposibility to overthrow our government.

Brian

BRAVO!
mark

Go, for it Raggs! I’ll be there for your hanging for treason. Can’t wait.

professor

Americans have a Constitutional duty to remove a tyrannical government.

Treason is being committed daily, and has been through these last three years, but it is being committed by the current regime.

We need to purge Washington.,.

JON

Even though it’s a bad healthcare bill, it is ridiculous that people against it keep saying, and as a fear tactic, that the government will be choosing your doctor for you. That is simply not true. It is about insurance and the uninsured.

lkar

Keep telling yourself that JON! Sort of like Social Security was to “supplement” retire incomes. Now millions of seniors would starve and die if there is any cuts (at least that is the Demoncrats position). What do you think will happen when Obummercare has run out of other peoples money?

Joe H.

Ikar,
Yeah, you mean like the Mayo clinic telling all it’s medicare patients that they will not be accepting medicare patients anymore after the first of the year?? They decided this, because the government has sliced so much what they pay for services, they don’t even cover the overhead let alone the services! Now, what do you think it’s gonna do when the MAJORITY of the population is on a socialized type plan???
professor

@Joe

It is called…culling the herd of the old and useless!
Mike in MI

hey prof – Medicaid pays even less and it “covers” pregnant ladies, fetuses and infants.
But, I suppose they’ll all go quietly – at least, few will ever hear the death chortles. But, Oblama-lama-ding-dong will point to it as a plus that the Medicaid numbers are dropping.
However, Medicare may become their thorn-in-the-beautoks because lots of seniors are becoming aware of Anti-Aging Medicine which extends people’s lives – and it works. How are they going to kill that bunch off?
Count on it. Socialism will come up with rules to meet the challenge of the literate adult population.
The Kids are pretty much non-readers. That’s not necessarily true of us fogey types. And some of us have “wisdom”.
I’d rather be wise than Obamaish. No computer can predict that without a “wise” programmer.
AND, if you’re tuned in to the “God channel” He can pre-empt all their moves and predictions. Why do you suppose they’re trying to get rid of anything related to the Word of God and real Christianity (as Biblically defined in Acts and forwards)? As long as it is in effect it wil beat them every time.
God just needs believers who know their Biblical rights, Constitutional rights and human rights to use them when situations demand a stand. The Apostle Paul worked it all in his ministry and his opposers had to recognize it. Read the derned book instead of taking some unbelieving nitwit’s intellecualized interpolation of it…pulpit-pounder though he may be.
God wants, and needs, believers … not pulpit-pounders. Be patient, He will NOT let you down. If He did I’d be dead…x4.

texastwin827

Really? Why don’t you try talking to a doctor, because THEY know what’s in it.

I have talked to mine….did you know that if a doctor treats a patient after he is told he can’t (under Obamacare) he can have charges filed against him, after the third incidence? Being told you can’t treat a patient puts the doctor in the position of having to comply with a government who is in “cost saving mode”. While you may not view it as such, it is definitely a form of a death panel mindset.

Think about it…would you want someone in government determining whether you parents or one of your children can be treated or not, especially if they would be “cured” if they received treatment?

Joe H.

texastwin827,
Especially if that person making the determination is a clerk instead of a physician??

CP

I do so delight in hearing the well to do bitching about something that will actually help those who aren’t so well off. If you think Obamacare, as you insist on labeling it, is bad, try getting health care when you make to much to qualify for medicaid, but not enough to afford private insurance. I know, you will say another job will cure that, but not if you are already working 60 to 70 hours a week, albeit at minimum wage. And now I hear another voice saying get more education so you can get a better job, but you are already working enough hours you have little, if any time for a home life, and you don’t qualify for a Pell grant, or any of the other money that helps a lucky few advance themselves.

lkar

Life is a series of choices. Bad choice reap bad consequences, good choices reap good benefits. Sometimes those choices are limited by circumstances (economic in you case CP). But it should never, never be limited by government. We have already limited so many of our choices to the US government, we are stuck in this dire situation of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. We need to get back to personal responsibility for our choices! In your case CP, this should be the role of church, charity, and civic organizations to help you out with medical needs.
http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

The medical industry, and access to it’s benefits are only expensive because of government interference into the market. More interference will only create more cost, less competition, and lowerr quality care. This is a proven fact.

http://www.lp.org Jerome Bigge

Obamacare is an almost perfect copy of Romneycare there in Massachusetts so we can see how Obamacare will work by looking at Massachusetts. People have fled Massachusetts because of the cost of complying with Romneycare. People who can will flee the US because of the cost of Obamacare. For example, an American who leaves the US for any other developed country will effectively pay less for their health care in their new country than they would have to pay here in the US. Many US employers will drop the provision of employer paid health care for their employees because of the cost of compliance with Obamacare. One reason for this is that Obamacare requires higher levels of coverage(lifetime benefits) than what most employers provide now. US health care costs 18% of GNP. Under Obamacare we will spend at a minimum 20% of GNP, or THREE TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!! Ask yourself what we are going to have to CUT to afford this expense? Obamacare does nothing to improve efficiency, it merely forces people to spend more money than they would likely otherwise spend on health care. Which means they will have LESS MONEY to spend on anything else! We will continue to have 10% unemployment or more for the foreseeable future because so much money will be DRAINED out of the economy to pay for Obamacare! We can’t afford Obamacare!

texastwin827

CP is your arrogance limited to just you, or does in run in the family?

Well to do? As a single mom I raised 3 children with very little in child support payments. My income was low enough that I usually got a small amount of Earned Income Credit, on my tax return. My income was TOO HIGH for Medicaid or any welfare programs.

As for college…no, I didn’t get to go but, two of my daughters did. That said, they put themselves through college! BOTH worked fulltime and went to school fulltime. My youngest daughter is the only one who got a Pell grant for her first year…after that, her job and my job, combined, made her ineligible.

In June, 2010, I was on a widow’s SSA pension (my ex & I were never divorced which made me eligible to draw his) and had a heart attack. The EMT’s were advised that I did not have insurance, however, because they are required to take a heart attack patient to the nearest hospital that is best equipped for heart attack patients I was taken to a “for profit” hospital. Even though the hospital wrote off 2/3 of my bill because I didn’t have insurance, I was left with about $40K or more in medical bills for the hospital & all the doctors (4 day stay because of the stent they inserted). Will not being able to pay it ruin my credit…YES.

That said, I am NOT in favor of Obamacare. The ones who have low incomes will end up not paying anything, just as they don’t pay income taxes, which means that the cost for this coverage will be spread amongst those who work (including you). The cost will be horrendous, but you will have no choice..otherwise, you can be fined for not paying.

Supposedly, Medicare costs the taxpayer’s a lot of money even though we pay Medicare premiums..(mine are $111 a mo & because of the heart attack, I carry a supplemental policy that is $152 a mo) can you imagine what the cost will be to the worker bees when a larger number of those covered, are paying nothing?

Sorry, my children, my grandchildren nor my great grandchildren should NOT be saddled with that burden!
http://www.bookkeepingfirstinc.com Paula

Furthering your education may not necessarily get you a better job and health insurance. There are many highly educated people working for minimum wage or only a little above it at this time. With the sever downturn in the economy, I am working at a similar job, with 1/2 the pay and less hours, with the same overhead I established as reasonable when things were better. How can I possibly afford Obamacare?

Fredsworld

I weep for my country, I weep for my country men and women, and I weep for our children who’s lives will be far worse now. We have become a nation of gluttony and sloth and have allowed EVIL to take over and make slaves of our generation, our children’s generation including our children’s children’s children. This will never stop until the last drop of innocent blood is absorbed into the soil and Evil rules the world. Only faith in God and the belief that Jesus Christ will return and destroy Satan will encourage good men and women to stand together and fight against these evil doers. I pray for Christs return!

JON

You have to remember that Christ is always within us and he told us the kingdom of heaven is also within. Don’t let you fears take over you. If you truly believe, every isn’t as bad as you are perceiving it.
Peace!

lkar

Everything is not as grand as you preceive it! Jesus also said nothing good comes out of man. Last time I checked the liberals have kicked Jesus (the Son of God) out of everything the government runs! So I do not think their motive is righteousness and benevolance. They simply want to control (slavery) the people.
Mike in MI

Jon and Ikar -
Look at it this way. In order for his plans to succeed the Devi has to get The Word of God out of everything he (satan) wants to run. God’s Word is the only thng more powerful than they are. Look, they aren’t concerned about islambs, hindus, buddists, or demoninational “christians” – they’re fearfilled and helpless.
Get the best teachers, translations, understanding and applications of His ways of helping you that you can find and BOLDLY carry it out.
Did Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego have to flinch when faced with the king’s fiery furnace? NO!!! Everybody else did…but so what?
(Now watch. There’ll be a bunch of liberals chime in with their counterfeit two cents worth.)
Joe H.

Mike,
Gee, I’m suprised!!! your post has been here almost 9 hours and karolyn didn’t chime in and say that scripture is just a fairy tale!! Guess her alien leaders came down and got her!!!
Mike in MI

Joe H., my friend – Why do you suppose she was dropped off?
Thanks for the toot.

Thomas B

We as a nation have survived many tough ordeals. The strength of our nation is that it is a nation founded upon the recognition of God. The odds are that because the vast majority of citizens have faith in God,our nation will survive all of this obamarama nonsense. Many of us have seen Gods work in action in response to our faith, so it is obvious to many of us that we have the mush greater strength and probability of victory. The liberals and their illusionary world of smoke and mirrors, are just here like the flies of a summer. They are the obstacle course we have to survive. I believe that the Supreme court will nullify the obammacare.

Johnny

I sure hope you are correct.
ChristyK

Does our country look like a Godly country? God has punished other countries for much less than the evil that has been going on in this country. Christians have kept their mouths shut and gone the PC route and now things are totally contrary to God’s law. I think this country is on the verge of the wrath of God. It’s possible our people could repent, but it isn’t looking good.
professor

I hope you are right, but I am not sure that God will let us off that easy. We have let God be taken out of our society, and have not fought to keep Him in our schools and communities. Americans have been lulled into accepting many things that would have been swiftly rejected, at one time. We have succumb to “the dark side” because it was easier….

skyraider6

We will never bow to a dictator as long as there are Marines alive.Remember Iwo Jima.

Ray

Remember, This is what we have a Second Amendment for, never let the Commies take our guns. Lock and load!!

Lost in Paradise

You had better get ready to use them soon, as the commies are coming for your guns, or at least the U.N. Get ready to fight Ray, as I do not want to be the only one being called a terrorist.
mark

What a hero, what a patriot. As long as you have you gun, you’ll be free. Congratulations on your tremendous intellect. The Mafia and terror groups all around the world salute you. They also have lots of guns and are great champions of freedom like yourself.
former walmart person

Darn right you will be a free, providing you aren’t a coward and will actually use the guns in last ditch self defense. Dead oppressors can’t breath let alone oppress. You will either be free in life or free in death after using your firearms in last ditch self defense when they come to attack. You only surrender your freedoms when you are a coward and give in.

tyranny is a choice.
cincerely

A breath of common sense amid the senseless ranting.
Mike in MI

mark -
Tyrrany makes such strange bedfellows doesn’t it?

I wonder how well they will administer the blackmarkets Obama is bringing into being? Totalitarian rules ALWAYS generate conditions that require more rules and tighter draconian penalties – and more horrid ways of extracting information from transgressors about their accomplices. Fidel discovered he had to resort to it – like all socialist regimes.
I’ll bet you’ll love to be a torturer won’t you, mark? Just to show solidarity wid da gubmint.
koolbreeze

Mark — please dont be so absurd as to relate mobsters with guns — to a patriot who is willing to fight for his LIBERTY and Freedom. GOOD GOD MAN !!
bp

Mark; go back to OWS where you obviously came from! Anti American.
Joe H.

mark,
Don’t worry booby, the gubmint will protect you from all da bad men wif guns!!! NOT!!!!
professor

The Mafia is in Washington…
mark

No, the Mafia is on Wall Street. They own Washington lock, stock, and barrell.
Mike in MI

Mark – True, and they purchased the Oblama-lama-ding-dong regime, in both places. Bobby Kennedy, Sr. warned us about this potential before the islamb buck murdered him. Does the name Sirhan Sirhan ring any oblama-lama-ding-dong bells?

texastwin827

Skyraider…you will have a lot of company. The current and past veterans of the US Army and the Navy, will be fighting right along side the Marines!

MANY of those serving, today, are NOT pleased with where the government is going. Their brothers have not died, keeping this country free, so that radicals could change it, forever, and remove the freedoms that were paid for, by the blood of our veterans.

James

The Occupiers would make a considerable army if they were organized and armed.

former walmart person

Wrong marine. Actually you are part of the problem enjoying the slaughtering of middle east brown people. It must really get your rocks off nice and hard. A real marine would tell his seargent to go straight to hell when given an unconstitutional order

HOOO RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH

Joe H.

former,
before you go doing an injustice to a good Marine, remember you don’t equal a pimple on his Marine AZZ!!!
Joe H

former,
BTW I’m former ARMY and I still say that to you!!

s c

Here’s yet another kicker in this planned insanity. Obummer and his incompetent economists and everyone else who’s part of Obummercare KNOWS that it will SHRINK the economy. Even if it starts out by looking OK, it has many built-in time bombs.
The core issue is whether or not the S C can still READ English and UNDERSTAND what the Constitution says about a government gone mad [for the "best" of all possible reasons and/or 'noble intent'].
Kagan, you’ve already made a lot of people here in the real world mad. This crap is not funny, and I don’t care how many ‘friends’ you think you have back there in la la land. Recuse yourself.
If it happens that your vote (or the vote of another like-minded America-hater) gets this damned thing passed get ready for REAL ‘pissed in the streets’ demonstrations. Kagan is living proof that it’s possible to get through law school, be a willing sociopath, get programmed by people who aren’t fit to clean toilets (let alone make legal decisions) and pass off your sorry rump as someone who is an asset to America and the American way of life.
This is reality, and you can’t change the channel. Recuse yourself, and prove that at least once your posterior hasn’t been bought of via “a higher calling” that amounts to legislated SLAVERY.

Mike in MI

Well, s c, speaking of “slavery” and “shrinking the U.S. economy” -
Just look at it this way for a moment – how convoluted this whole mess is.
At this moment govenment economists are predicting that unemployment will contnue at 9% percent or more for the next 8 – 10 years. That means very few people of that demographic will be able to afford much of anything – let alone penalties for not carrying health insurance.
So, unless they are given some sort of coverage waiver (or government redistributes more of our funds to cover the poor citizens generated by Obama) those folks will end up in jail. Debtors prison – where we will pay about $40,000/yr for each prisoner.
There is another Constitutional matter I think somebody should consider. THE STATES, BUSINESSES AND GROUPS EXEMPTED FROM OBAMACARE.
Constitutional “Article 1; Section 8: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shll be uniform throughout the United States;”.
So…how can granting exemptions and waivers to certain groups, but not others, by law be “uniform throughout the United States”?
Jus’ wundrin’…’lessn they plans ta change are name tuh “Obamaland”.
///

Joe H.

Mike in MI,
“groups exempted”…. You mean like the UNIONS that supported nobummer????
Mike in MI

Joe H. – I’m athinkin’ ya got m’drift there.
Thanks, my friend. I was wondering if anybody read it.

rosina

I hope and pray that the five mentioned Justices who re not rabid Communists will do their duty to uphold the Constitution.
If they do not, we may as well accept that the Constitution is DEAD and a dictatorship will be installed-definitely. We already have a dictator in all but name, who has taken upon himself to order everyone as he pleases.
Now we must tighten our belts whilst he goes around the world spending over $200 million a day??????With thousands of his acolytes.
Shades of Robert Mugabe!!!!!!
I never expected the USA, land of freedom to end this way.

mark

Yeah right if this health care plan is not overturned all American freedom is finished. After the Supreme Court upholds Obamacare all churches, synagogues and mosques will be closed (well, you probably agree with that last one), all newspapers and television news broadcasts shut down, all political parties banned, all elections cancelled, all branches of government except the executive eliminated, all guns removed from private citizens, all dissenters against the government shipped to gov’t-run death camp. What kind of paranoid, Chicken Little, cuckoo-clock-land are you living in? It’s a federal law. It will probably be amended and changed over the years. If not overturned by next year’s Supreme Court it very well may be overturned by a future Supreme Court during a Republican administration. The United States will still be around, free and prosperous, a thousand years from today, long after all you crybabies have finished wetting your pants over every exaggerated right-wing headline. Please, take a chill pill. It’s a beautiful, sunny day. Take a walk in a park this aft. Have a beer in a tavern. Watch a football game. The world and our country will go on despite all the nonsense that poltical media and our gov’t spin.

ChristyK

He is not chicken little crying “the sky is falling”. Our government has been on a long term decline in liberty since the civil war. If the healthcare law is declared constitutional then there is no limit to the power of our federal government. Based on what our politicians have been doing to control us while pretending to follow the constitution, they will accelerate the totalitarianism when the last chains of the constitution are cut off. It will not be pretty, although I do not know how fast we will lose our freedoms, it will happen in our lifetime. The only other option is civil war and nobody wants that.
mark

ChristYK, Longtime decline in Liberty since the Civil War! Do you know anything about American History? Do you realize that thanks to the Civil War slavery was ended in America, African Americans were finally given their rights to citizenship and the vote. This was taken away from them for nearly a century by vicious Southern racists until the heroic modern Civil Rights Movement one of the shining achievements in all American history – helped restore those rights along with LBJ’s federal gov’t in the mid-1960s. Women could not vote or fully participate in our political and economic system until the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment in 1920, nearly 60 years after the start of the Civil War! This was the crowning achievement of the Progressive Age. What decline in freedom since the Civil War are you talking about? Do you pine for “the good, old days” when women, blacks, and hispanics could not vote in this country or exercise their full rights as citizens? Compared to these dramatic, overwhelming gains for freedom, the greater regulations of modern government are a pittance. It was better to live in an America before the Civil War when there was slavery and virtually no rights and Constitituional protections for women – half the population – and minorities?! Why because we have higher taxes now and more regulation and social programs? Good grief! What kind of America do you want to live in? One where only white males can practice freedom because that was what America was like before the Civil War. You do realize that, don’t you?
Joe H.

mark,
i can remember when we could buy a gun and not have to register it and they didn’t do a background check. i can remember when I could accompany my wife right up to her gate to see her off on a flight. I can remember being able to buy a bottle of coke at the airport and being able to take it all the way to the plane. I can remember being able to drive through any neighborhood I wanted and not get stopped by the cops for a check. I can also remember when we didn’t bother to lock our doors or cars. do I want to see ALL the things from the “good ole days” come back? Not at all, but I would like to see quite a bit of it come back!! Not everything back then was good, I’ll grant you that, but not ALL was BAD either!!
mark

This shows your highly developed sense of social justice. It is a greater crime against the Constitution to you that you today cannot carry a bottle of Coca Cola onto a plane than that in 1919 two-thirds of Americans (all women, and all non-whites) could not vote. Your pain at having to buy a Coke today after you go through security is greater than the pain of tens of millions of women and blacks denied the right to vote, serve on juries, hold office or exercise even the most basic rights in our country for generations? Wow. You do realize that the reason you cannot take a Coke directly onto a plane is because of Al Qaeda – not the federal government. For decades they did not care what you carried onto a plane until the 9/11 attacks and subsequent airborne bombing threats and attempts. This has nothing to do with liberals or Obama. And the increase in crime in our society has nothing to do with the federal government infringing on your Constitutional rights.
Joe H.

mark,
I agree that slavery was bad, no doubt at all. The rights you speak of are here NOW! The rights we have LOST that I speak of are gone NOW!!! Quit being so myopic on something that you have NEVER experienced, as in slavery! IT WAS BAD, IT IS GONE!! GET OVER IT!! If you don’t, you will live the life of a victim all your life for something you had NOTHING to do with!! Start centering on the rights that you are slowly losing NOW and ARE experiencing! I’m sure your ancestors would tell you the same!! They fought for their rights while you live in the past and ignore the rights you are losing NOW!!!
crystal

You’re missing the picture. If the government can dictate that you must buy one thing, what will stop them from telling you that you have to buy something else. Learn to take care of your own health. It’s your responsibility, not mine.
mark

These are all ludicrous exaggerations and sound exactly like what conservatives and libertarians said in 1935 when Social Security was passed. If the federal government can force its citizens to buy retirement insurance our republic and its free instituions are finished. Socialist Dictatorship is right around the corner. Yeah, right, we now know what a canard that was. American Freedom is still alive and kicking with Social Security as a part of our lives, and American Freedom will continue for centuries to come.
Joe H.

mark,
Try getting off the social teat and get a job, you’ll find it refreshing to be able to depend on YOURSELF for a change!!
eddie47d

So Joe doesn’t accept any Social Security or Medicare? Which is what Mark mentioned.
Mike in MI

Mark – you’re not just a troll. You’re a computer plugged-in to the oblama-lama-ding-dong brain.-
Look, there is not much anyone can look forward to, as far as health is concerned, under anything established in Washington, DC. Medical doctors are trained to provide care (does not imply “cure”) for your diseases or conditions. Federal rules demand that a physician (of any persuasion, medical or not) must prove there is “medical necessity” to provide and get paid for care to a patient.
Medicine rules the roost, from top to bottom, because drug companies (via their billions controlling the FDA and lobbyists in the House and Senate) only want their potions used to treat any malady. So, “expert” M. D.’s or their surrogates out among the “health” insurers do everything possible to get toxic substances flowing through people’s vascular systems from diagnostic testing through rehab/home care. Anything in-between requires a “diagnosis code”.
No “diagnosis code” = no payment = no care = no cure or relief.

Folks, there are things that can go wrong with a human body that medicine can not quantify, qualify, define, treat or rehabilitate.
Yet, there are systems of care which can. BUT, medical science refuses to study, research, define, characterize, admit or allow anything outside of what is profitable to their systematology.

So…if you may have noticed, more and more and worse and worse goes wrong with our people and it gets more and more expensive to make people sicker and sicker and on and on it goes. Few cures just increasingly expensive care.
So, what do you want? “Care” or cure? If Oblama-lama-ding-dongcare becomes set in cement there will be no help when you need it – because everything outside of medicine will disAPPEAR.
Joe H.

NO eddie, I DON’T accept any social security or medicare as I’m only 61 and not eligible!! I work every day of my life as I ENJOY working!!
BTW eddie go look up social security and you will find that every working person PAID into it and are not on the teat!!! Still getting that union pension backed by wall street investments??? Hypocrite!!
professor

Mark, there has never been a “Free and Prosperous” Nation ruled by a black regime.

Evidently you have not been living in this country, if you are that clueless about obamacare.
mark

Your racism is as evident as your stupidity.
Joe H

No mark, if anybodys racisim is apparent in their posts, it is YOU!!! If sombody doesn’t agree with you 100% they are racist? Get real,man!!

bp

If this Supreme Court upholds this “passed in the darkness with bribes” Law which is really “I will control all aspects of your life” (anything can fall under “Health”; now there’s legislation declaring pizza a vegetable!) WE THE PEOPLE will just need to impeach them. How do we do that? Ours is a Constitution of checks & balances. Not even the Judicial branch is above it.

Joe H.

bp,
To put proof in the pudding to what you say about anything can fall under health, there is a clause in abummer care that says that any gold sale over 500.00 in value has to be registered! Now I ask you, what to hell does that have to do with health care???

James

Rosina, Don’t we all have to buy automobile insurance? Isn’t that another step towards healthcare insurance? If safe-drivers have to foot the bill for wreckless drivers, wouldn’t healthnuts have to pay for the care of alcoholics and garbage eaters?

http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

Again…..this will be upheld. It is in the Courts interest to expand federal power. They are part of the federal government. They have a long track record of doing just that. Zero judgements declaring the unconstitutionality of ANY law from 1937-1995….zero. And very few since ’95. History tells us the probability of this case will be upheld as well. I hope I am wrong.

Tell me again why it has become the norm for the federal government to decide the limits of it’s own powers? This was never intended by the founders. Why would they want to limit themselves? They wouldn’t. would you?

lkar

History also shows that tyranny is defeated by liberty. The civil war being the exception, but that conflict may not be over if this fiasco of government control is not limited and repealled!

http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

I would say that there is only one true instance of liberty defeating tyranny in history…..the only true revolution in history. The American Revolution. Other revolutions have provided very short periods of liberty, but most have switched one tyrant with another. Our revolution was different. Even though there was a quick attempt to undermine that revolution by Madison and the “federalists” (nationalists would have been a more suitable name) at the Philadelphia Convention with “the Virginia Plan”, their efforts were mostly thwarted by the “anti-federalists”(the actual promoters of federalism and republicanism).

The plan called for a powerful central government who could over-rule all State legislatures, rendering them useless. The Virginia Plan was dismantled, and when the constitution was finally done the States retained their sovereignty, and the new more powerful central government was severely limited to specific powers.

For the most part we knew true liberty up until the war between the States. That’s when the federal government truly began it’s dominion over the States….all in the name of “liberty”.

So I would say that experience shows us that liberty is a rare thing….while tyranny dominates the pages of history.

That’s not to say that the spirit of liberty ever dies. It is always present in the hearts of men. But the natural progression of government is a constant march toward despotism. Our is no exception of course.
mark

What a typical American chauvinist. The only revolution in human history that every really accomplished anything was the American Revolution! Please. Tell that to the millions of slaves who lived in tyranny under the Founding Fathers and their descendents for nearly 90 years after 1776! Tell that to the tens of millions of African Americans who were denied the right to vote -thanks to states rights in the South and the border states – from the 1880s until 1965 when the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAD TO STEP IN to give them back their democratic rights – along with millions of non-violent freedom fighters – a thousand time more heroic than the FOUNDING SLAVEHOLDERS – who were waterhosed, beaten, and shot down in the streets in the glorious South. Your twisted notions of freedom make the vast majority of Americans sick to their stomachs and only appeal to a small minority of Libertarian cranks who get their rocks off raving nonsense on this site.
http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

What are you talking about? Who said anything about the abolition of slavery being bad? Do you know your history? Is it not possible for a single war to have more than one effect? even positive and negative ones? Are you so short-sighted and lop-sided in mind to think that there is only one side to every story? How many of the founders knew that slavery was antethetical to the cause? Many of them. I could quote many SOUTHERN founders who detested the continuance of slavery but I would be wasting my time on doing so for you. you will see it how you want to see it.
There was a compromise on this issue to achieve ratification. Do you think that I agree 100% with everything that happened during the founding? Of course not, but I at least I understand that while some may have been hypocritical in their thinking they were still trying to achieve lasting liberty, and resrtict the inevitable growth of government into despotism. Granted, some were fine with their own personal despotism against a certain race of people, while fighting against it otherwise. But the cause was noble over-all none the less. Riddle me this genius- How was every other country able to end slavery without killing 600,000 of their own countrymen? Do you honestly believe that slavery would not have been abolished peacefully had it been left up to the people? Slavery was on the way out, every one knew that. It was used as an excuse to antagonize the South into submission to the northern money interests. (see government sponsored rail-roads, southern agriculture, etc. and follow the money. That’s what it is always about.)
I can’t stand liberal blather like yours. And I am not a libertarian. I actually believe there is a purpose for government. It’s just not what you believe it’s for.
crystal

I hate it when liberals try to speak up for Black people in this country. You hold the notion that we can’t do anything but participate in the welfare system.
mark

Patriot 1776, “Riddle me this genius- How was every other country able to end slavery without killing 600,000 of their own countrymen?”
Because none of the other countries with slavery had such virulent racists as lived in the American South and would for decades after the Civil War burn, lynch, and castrate blacks and then stand around proudly to be photographed beside the charred bodies like hunters proud of their kill. They also formed the Klan and other white supremicist terrorist groups to attack them, imposing Jim Crow segregation and denying them the right to vote. No other country had such a vicious group of race killers as American Southerners were, living within their own borders until the Nazis came along in Germany (Southerners of that period greatly admired the Nazis for their view on white Aryan supremacy). And also most important, no other country had such a large armed minority that seceded to maintain their slave system and launched an militant revolt against the legitimately-elected government of their own nation, as the South did. The attack on Ft. Sumter by Southerners started the war, not any Northern aggression. When Great Britain outlawed slavery in 1833, no part of Britain or its empire seceded or launched a rebellion against London to maintain their slave system. This was also true when the French outlawed slavery in 1848 and when the Tsar outlawed serfdom in Russia in the early 1860s. The South asked for the war by launching its armed rebellion and attacking federal facilities – and they got their war. But they have been crying in their Mint Juleps ever since because they lost. They even celebrate their treason and racism in all their monuments, commemorations, and re-enactments. Let them celebrate, history has rendered its verdict: Southern racism and slavery lost. But they and their supporters like Tom DiLorenzo still can’t get over it, so they try to dress up the horrors of slavery with the window-dressing of states rights and freedom! What a joke. But geniuses like you have apparently fallen for it.
JOSEPH FOSTER

I totally agree with your comments, there remains millions of white Americans to this day that remain in a state of self-denial as to the injustice done to Afro Americans. After slavery was abolished discrimination of Afro American remained until 1964 when the civil right act was signed by LBJ. To equate social medicine to communism or Stalin is utter none sense, all of the civilized capitalist countries in western Europe, now Canada has social basic medical care for its citizens except the USA which uses medical care as a free enterprise system to make profit from the sick, one Hospital in America charged a patient in a hospital $25, 00 for a bucket of ice. I am not suggesting Obama care is the answer, the answer is study many of the well tried social medical plan as established in many of the European countries and copy the best workable plan for America. Today America is declining very rapidly it has lost its sense of judgment. It gives priority to wars and not health care, it gives priority to being the policeman of the world a role she can no longer afford. That role supports the military Industrial complex. I am a successful capitalist and do not support socialism or communism, but I do support some social program such as social security and health care. The support of these two social programs does not make you a communist or a supporter of Stalin. I need to ask some of my super rich friends that do not need social security or medical care, what happens if they have lost their entire fortune, and reduced to poverty they will end up sleeping on the side walk of Main street, and be picked up like garbage when they die from hunger and lack of medical care.
Today the majority of the American people due to ignorance believe America is a Democracy, they fail to accept that it is not, they are duped into voting and are swayed by clever lines espoused by some politicians that are masters of deception. By Joseph Foster, Author ‘’Seeing Red’’ to be published worldwide January 15, 2012
http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

Horace Greely, founder and editor of the New York Tribune, supporter of Lincoln, and the War, and an outspoken opponent of slavery had this to say about the outcome of the war:

“We have stricken the shackles from 4,000,000 human beings and brought all labourers to a common level, but not so much by the elevation of former slaves as by reducing the whole working population, white and black, to a condition of serfdom. While boasting of our noble deeds, we are careful to conceal the ugly fact that by our iniquitous money system we have manipulated a system of oppression which, though more refined, is no less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery.”

In response to Greely editorial “The Prayer of Twenty Millions,” on concerns of Lincoln’s direction and resolve during the war Lincoln said this:

Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I “seem to be pursuing” as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be “the Union as it was.” If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.

So tell me again how the history you were taught is so right?
http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

Joseph, Much of your comment is correct. But, Just because I don’t accept the official version of history on the War between the States doesn’t mean that I am “in a state of self-denial as to the injustice done to Afro Americans.” i am glad that the war resulted in the end of slavery. The Years of discrimination afterwards were discraceful as well. All I am saying is things are not as simple as we had been led to believe in our “education”.
Joe H.

Foster,
I have an aunt that lives in Canada and she thinks the system there stinks!! If that system is so good, then why do Canadians come to the US for oncology work?? Because the five week to sometimes as high as six month wait to see a good cancer doctor could cost you your life, if it is a fast growing cancer. The wait to see ANY specialist in Canada is unacceptable but on truly life threatening problems, it is unconsionable!!! you want the US to be like THAT???? Go suck an egg!!!
Joe H.

J. Foster,
BTW, if the Canadian system is so good, then why are they now discussing the return of private insurance type coverage?? Two reasons: one the system is bankrupting the country. Two the system $UCKS!!!
Bruce D.

Mark freedom is won through war which the blacks could not have achieved on their own. The Northern States did not have slavery so it is racist to make the sweeping comments you are making about the founders or white people. You might want to look in the mirror if you truely dislike racism because you are a typical racist.
http://www.foundersrevolution.net Patriot1776

Just couldn’t resist throwing this in there to show that you may have a skewed version of history on the “evil founders” who liked slavery so much…..

It’s Thomas Jefferson’s original rough draft of the Declaration of Independence. Here is a link:

http://www.foundersrevolution.net/2011/11/thomas-jeffersons-original-draft-of.html

And here is the relevant complaint against King George included therein:

he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it’s most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce:[11] and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.

Still convinced that the founders were just evil racists Mark? I have more if you want.
former walmart person

The reason we always live under tyranny is because people are cowards. If we were a race of klingons, prone to high agression, no dicatator could ever rise up. The Jews were wimps, the gypsies were wimps, the homosexuals were wimps, the russians were ultiamtely wimps, and the nazi soldiers were wimps who lacked the courage to stand up.

It is so insidiously insane. All of it. Our world is controlled by elitist fat cats who just sit around and collect all the riches. You think Hitler, went around and personally pulled the lever of every gas chamber use? I would actually give him some credit for being brave to his insane cause if this were the case. No Hitler himself probably never actually killed a Jew with his own hands.

these elitists sip their fine tea and just party all the time and give propaganda speeches every now and then. Thats it. How is it these bastards remain in power? The ARM of this power is the police and military. If only the arm could ignore the signals comming from the brain…
Mike in MI

mark – Nov. 17; 2:32 pm
Did you or anybody else ever stop to think about who it was that made the slave trade possible? —And thus your tirade?
Who went around throughtout Africa kidnapping, pillaging and enslaving individuals and whole tribes to enrich themselves and march the African tribes to the West African ports of call? The slave ships didn’t go hunting for victims themselves for the most part.
No sirree! Ol’ Luuey Unfairicon might be ashamed to learn the purpetraitors were…tada, ta, rum, ta, da…islamb bucks. YUP!
The nation of islamb yoked folks’ neck to neck, hands tied and ankle to ankle (so as to keep the merchandise in good condition) and herded them to the pick-up points.
How macabre’, all these young blacks thinking allah, god of the moon, wants to be their savior when he was their great-grandparents enslavior. And, and, and…oh hell, who cares?
mark

But you are only talking about those who SOLD the slaves. Your comments say nothing about those who BOUGHT the slaves. White Europeans in the United States, the Caribbean, the Spanish and Portuguese empires in the Americas. They bought all the slaves and worked many of them to death on sugar, cotton, tobacco, and coffee plantations. So you are saying that only those who SOLD the slaves are morally culpable – but the white people who BOUGHT 8 million human beings and held them and their descendents in slavery for centuries, those whites of European descent whose insatiable demand for millions of slaves drove the entire Atlantic Slave Trade for nearly 4 centuries are innocent. You reveal your highly selective and hypocritical sense of morality.
Mike in MI

Mark – CAN YOU EVEN READ?
patrick H.T. paine

” To conquer, first DIVIDE! ”

“Just the FACTS!” Jack….or whomever it may concern.

Africa, the DARK CONTINENT, was so named, because entry into it’s equatorilal region, ( sub saharan ) was a death sentence to non-inhabitants due to various tropical diseases. ( this did not change
until 1875, when Belgium, seeking to become a “colonial power”, sent
Stanley to scout out the CONGO. ( see The Scramble for Africa: Pakenham )

The “slave trade” had a long history, first overland by caravan skirting the northern edge, ending in Timbuctu in the west. On the east side, out of Zanzibar and finally on various parts of the west
coast with rather descriptive names like, Ivory, Gold, Slave etc.

Fort’s were built on the west coast by the usual suspects, curiously though, all cannon emplacements in these forts, were directed outward,
since there was NO THREAT from the interior. Clearly TRADE was the impetus here, primarily GOLD, which prompted all european “explorer’s,
beginning with Spain, Portugal, followed by the Dutch, English and French. The new world, also yeilded other products, coffee, sugar, cotton, tobacco etc. and as these things go, as surely as night follows day, the DEMAND for these new products,direct agricultural production by europeans ( entreprenuers, if you will ) was clearly a means to profit in much the same way, as the silks, teas and spices of the orient. ( China, India and Japan ) Unfortunately, discovery of the America’s, and the lack of immunity to continental disease, as well as a different cultuaral attitude toward material ownership of land and things, made the natives who managed to survive, unsuitable for labor.

Sub-saharan African’s, by virtue of the disease factor, and the normal conditions for these crops in the America’s, made them a natural choice…at least in terms of immunity from malaria and other tropical stuff. When this eureka moment finally occured to those european’s in Africa on the coast happen’s like all things, gradually!

What did NOT happen was “expeditions by these european’s” into the
interior to secure slaves…….these were provided “internally” by
the stronger “tribes”, who brought them to these “forts” or “factories”…..with eventual ( semi-direct imput ) from the
inter bred “children” of the “soldier’s” assigned to these forts.
Whatever, your understanding may be, the sub tropical African slave trade could not happen without the complete co-operation of the African’s themselves and the reason why this is so, it that there were over 600 tribal or ethnic distinctions in Equatorial Africa at the time.

Like it or not, these forces are powerful and readily observable in the present day in every nation, to one degree or another, and can easily become violent…i.e. Lybia, Bosnia, China etc.

Interestingly, only the colonies in what would eventually become the
united States, managed to avoid having to rely on replacement trade
from Africa, and by 1860, breeding was a major industry.

Finally, there is a great deal of mythology surrounding the conditions that actually existed in the united states, regarding slavery…..one of which defies common sense completely. That is the image of intolerable conditions of babarity and brutality. While examples of this do exist…..it does represent anything close to the reality, especially in the united States.* ( this is not to be construed as a defense of the institution, simply a FACT. )

Two sources for you to explore these FACTS for yourself ( provided you are actually interested in FACTS ) are:

1.) A Renegade History of the United States. ( which dispells a few more myths than just those re: slavery.

2.) American Slavery 1619-1877 : Kolehin, Peter

“Do not ask for whom the bell tolls……….”
mark

The Civil War being the exception. Yeah right. When the slaveholding monsters of the South were finally and righteously defeated, a great shout of freedom erupted all around the globe. Read some of the newspapers in Europe and Asia in 1865 celebrating the death of American Slavery. Naturally with your warped mentality, you view the defenders of slavery and the people of daily whipped, raped, and bought and sold human beings as defenders of liberty. No doubt to you and the other Libertarian wingnuts, the Nazis and the Communists were great heroes of human freedom as well.
Julian

We have had death panels for years. They are call private insurance companies. They deny you health care if it cost them too much. After all the insurance company executives have to maintain their multi-million dollar lifestyles and if the underlings have to die so be it.

For insurance companies too make themselves look good, they bribe or I mean donate to Congressmen and supply them with insurance lobbyist as staff adviser then have them put insurance lobbyist in charge to mess up departments so they become less effective. Then these bribed congressmen votes to cut funding and staffing to those departments so everyone can complain how ineffective government is. Finally we can replace government with corporate dictators who think corporations are people and naturally born living people are property that can be disposed of.
Emoke

You seem to forget that insurance is not a charity. They are a money making business. Yes the government passes laws making them cover this that and the other and making thier business model unprofitable. The whole insurance industry is out of hand and the government taking over is making it worse not better.
Joe H.

Julian,
you want to see insurance costs drop?? Then get the state governments to allow across state line bidding on coverages to ALL companies of good standing!!
ArkansasRebel

Mark writes that the civil war brought about the death of slavery, but that is not true. Not only did some other countries continue to hold slaves but the famous “Emancipation Proclamation” only freed the slaves held by states which supported the Confederacy. Yankees were still allowed to hold slaves. This is why it was necessary to eventually pass and amendment to the Constitution to outlaw slavery. You need to get you facts straight before commenting. Also, please do not confuse my statements with an attempt to support the holding of slaves, I’m just stating the facts.
mark

Right the Civil War had nothing to do with the 1865 Thirteenth Amendment that ended slavery? It was just a wild coincidence that this amendment passed the year the Civil War ended. OK, genius. Keep drinking the libertarian Kool-Aid.
Mike in MI

“MARK” – the noise from a hare-lipped dog. Congenitally defective.
ArkansasRebel

Another inaccuracy in your statement, Mark, is the assumption that the Civil War was fought over the issue of slavery. It was not! It began over the issue of the Federal Government overstepping the bounds allowed by the Constitution & MONEY! (Pretty much the same as all wars).
The issue of slavery was used by Lincoln after it had become apparent that the North was going to lose the war. By adding slavery as an issue he garnered the financial support of the major financial institutions.
Lincoln was quoted as saying: “If I could preserve the Union & preserve slavery, I would, but if I must abolish slavery to preserve the Union, I will”. The quote may not be word for word but the essence is in tact. The issue was the power of the Federal Government usurping the rights specifically designated to the states.
mark

Yes, but he said that before the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation and before he proposed the Thirteenth Amendment in early 1865 to end slavery forever, right before his assassination.
Mike in MI

mark – carried out by a liberal – of the times.
crystal

You couldn’t possibly be that stupid. The Civil War’s original reason was to keep the union together. Lincoln didn’t care whether slavery was abolished in the states already holding slaves, he just didn’t want it expanded into new territories. It wasn’t until the “Emancipation Proclamation” that slavery REALLY became an issue. Even though it only freed the slaves in the territories that seceeded from the union. Big Problem With It: Lincoln had no jurisdiction in those Southern Territories due to the fact that the South claimed their independence.
mark

Yes but the Emancipation Proclamation which was only a partial solution, TOOK PLACE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CIVIL WAR. At the close of the Civil War before he was assassinated, Lincoln proposed the Thirteenth Amendment to end slavery forever. You are right when the war started slavery was not the single reason for the war for the North, but it was the major reason for the war to the South who, after all, started the war with its attack on Ft. Sumter, a federal facility. Intitally the war was fought by the North to preserve the Union after the South attacked the federal facilities to preserve its slave system. To try and say that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War is ludicrous. It is like saying forming the independent republic we have today had nothing to do with the Revolutionary War simply because such a republic wasn’t formed in 1775 when the fighting started but was actually not completed until the Constititution’s ratification in 1788.
Mike in MI

Ya, right mark – “independent republic we have today”
How about “dependent democracy” subject to the aegis of the U.N., overseen locally by the “oblama-lama-ding-dongocracy” which enslaves every possible body to the Democrat plantation/
Jay

mark, since you are so obsessed with our countries’ history of slavery, why not mention that nothing has changed in that department, but only the method, and that economically, by which to enslave a whole nation, and you included. Surely you can agree that slavery still exists, and, its a booming racket! Of course, the method(s) by which to enslave have changed, as well, slavery is no longer race specific, nor gender specific. It’s an all inclusive club. You need to lift your blinders, and realize that slavery, is alive and well, and, has EVOLVED!!!
professor

Don’t people get tired of beating up their country and its founders over “slavery!” All countries have had slavery, and some of them still do. And, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those countries that still practice slavery are on the Human Right Council at the UN…

If anything, people ranting about slavery make blacks resented even more. Blacks were used as an excuse to destroy the South, and that is what I see as despicable. Northerners devastated part of our Nation because of greed, while killing hundreds of thousands of Americans to do it! No wonder Lincoln was shot! Maybe he deserved it because he tore this country apart. No wonder obama likes to compare himself to Lincoln.

And, what does the berating of our founders, have to do with how we live today. For all their faults our founders were intelligent men with much foresight. Their knowledge gave us the means to become the greatest Nation in the world, one that has been envied by all. So, what are you trying to accomplish and what is your point as of this moment…

James

Patriot1776, In FDR’s first term (1933-1937) five of his big socialist programs were declared unconstitutional. One was the Agriculatural Adjustment Act (U.S. v. Butler, 1936). However, for all practical purposes, he did get away with nationalizing most of the nation’s economy. After those five setbacks, he threatended to stack the Court with 4 or 5 more socialist justices, and the Court became more favorable to his program.

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