I’ll agree with Jeff on that one. All kinds of bells and whistles were going off!

You are exactly correct, DaveH. First with the Tariff of Abominations, then with the Morrill Tariff, they were determined to drain the wealth of the South to support and enrich certain connected Northern interests. Lincoln ran on a platform to raise the tariff. They didn’t care if they reduced the South to poverty; nor would they compromise. It was a system of greed and corruption without any moral justification. Since the Republican Party’s first president was the nation’s first dictator, the party can not abandon their statist goals without coming to terms with the myth of Honest Abe. I find it difficult to support the Republican Party. On the other hand, the Democratic Party is devoid of a single worthy purpose or goal; it is a party of pure evil. I would just as soon vote the Devil for president as vote for a Democrat.

It’s so nice to have some people on the board who have taken the time to educate themselves before commenting. Thanks, Monte.

“They didn’t care if they reduced the South to poverty; nor would they compromise. It was a system of greed and corruption without any moral justification.”

Sounds like real nice folks! I can’t imagine why anyone would be opposite to that, not even the devil. It doesn’t sound as if they changed that much.

John,
how about the first republic to last over 200 years? How about the most generous people of any nation in the world?

“San Marino is the oldest surviving sovereign state and constitutional republic in the world, as the continuation of the monastic community founded on 3 September 301, by stonecutter Marinus of Rab. Legend has it that Marinus left Rab, then the Roman colony of Arba, in 257 when the future emperor, Diocletian, issued a decree calling for the reconstruction of the city walls of Rimini, which had been destroyed by Liburnian pirates.[7]

The constitution of San Marino, enacted in 1600, is the world’s oldest constitution still in effect.[8] The country’s economy mainly relies on finance, industry, services and tourism. It is one of the wealthiest countries in the world in terms of GDP (per capita), with a figure comparable to some of the more developed Italian regions, such as Lombardy and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. San Marino is considered to have a highly stable economy, with one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe, no national debt and a budget surplus.[1]

Bob,
I usually read your comments to the point where you say something so ridiculous that I can no longer stomach reading the rest of your obtuse BS.
In this case it was your feigned concern for the Chinese Laborers in the “sweat shops”. Have you asked them, Bob? Does it occur to you that they might rather work in a “sweat shop” than to starve? It is none of your business what Chinese laborers choose to do for their livings.

Why do you say Bobwire is ridiculous when the Republican candidates (at least 6) also want to get tough on China. You need to recognize their BS also since they may be in that seat of power.

Eddie,
do I really need to respond to your inane statement?

Well eddie, all of your “feigned” understanding had to come to an end at some point…I guess this was it.

Why is China even in a position to sell us “cheap goods”? The core of the reality is that our government actually put them in that position! Someday the United States may look back and realize how incredibly stupid it was to build up communist China at the expense of our own economy.

Over the past several decades, hundreds of factories and manufacturing facilities that would have been constructed in the United States, along with millions of decent paying jobs, have ended up going to China instead where labor is so much cheaper. In the process, China has become a massive economic powerhouse, while once thriving manufacturing cities in the United States such as Detroit are now rusted-out corpses.

So now the U.S. economy, with its high wages and repressive government regulations, is suffering while China’s economy is thriving.
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/shipping-our-economy-our-jobs-and-our-prosperity-to-china

That Economic Powerhouse, Jeff, has a $5.9 Trillion GDP compared to a GDP of $14.7 Trillion for the United States. And they have 1.3 billion people compared to .32 billion people in the US. So they have a GDP that is 1/3 of ours with a population size that is 4 times ours. I’d say they have a ways to go before they catch up.
Of course, they are improving while we are going in the opposite direction, so if we don’t get our heads out, they may indeed catch up some day.

DaveH, from what I have read recently, many “so called” exoerts are starting to raise a warning sign that China’s economy, particularly the escalating property values will eventually go the way of our housing debacle. Should that happen, who’s going to pay those debts? Who’s going to bailout the banks, the lenders?

Since the Chinese regime implemented a series of “tightening” policies to curb the real estate market, home prices have been falling across China. Meanwhile, land sales–the main source of local governments’ revenues–have also dropped sharply.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/chinas-economy-on-the-brink-of-collapse-136095.html

It also didn’t take long for the name calling to come out Dave (inane). For someone who will only vote for Ron Paul you seem to be defending those other Republican candidate.Paul and Huntsman are the only two who understand what to do about the China issue.The others are only pestering for votes. I don’t want to blame Nixon for China’s rise to power because it did slow down communism but it also gave us a fierce competitor. No President since has figured out how to tame that country.

That’s not name-calling, Eddie. It’s just a fact.
Since when must I call out all the other Candidates, Eddie? That’s your goofy take on things, not mine.

DaveH,
not being a smartazz here, but I want you to explain something for me. What good do all the cheap goods imported from all over the world do a US citizen if they are unemployed and can’t buy said goods? If jobs keep leaving the Us at the rate they are, this will be a very pertinent question.

Joe,
There are not a fixed number of jobs. The number of jobs in the economy depend entirely on the ingenuity of the American people.
If we spend less of our money on products from China, then we have more left over to spend here on other American made products and services.
If we protect our manufacturers from Chinese competition, then they will protect their manufacturers and then their people will spend less money on the products that our manufacturers create and export.
As I’ve said many times, the first thing countries do when engaging an enemy is to embargo their trade. Why would they do that if Free Trade was a bad thing? Think.
http://mises.org/rothbard/protectionism.asp

If we can’t compete with the Chinese on any level, then I’d say that speaks pretty poorly of us as a people.

“Bob,
I usually read your comments to the point where you say something so ridiculous that I can no longer stomach reading the rest of your obtuse BS.”

Well Thank you Dave, and I read yours to get a glimpse of the kind of world you might wish to make for everyone and yourself.

I can’t say that it would actually change much other then who’s doing the extortion and stealing. Sometimes is sound inviting but you fail to include the human fact in your new world, leaving out the names and faces of the new bandits that replaces the old ones.

Freedom is having nothing to lose. I don’t think that you want to be free. I know I don’t, not at the moment anyway. I have too much going on and the finish line is yet in sight.

Yes ! we could make government smaller and allow organized crime to fill in all the low spots. Where you are paying taxes or a crime boss to remain open for business, makes little difference, tell me, which you prefer?

Of course I embellish(some) to make a point, we could make government smaller but at what point does it become self defeating and counterproductive?

I say government is corrupt, you say less government, less corruption, problem solved! I say No! you didn’t address the problem but went around it. While leaves these criminals still in business but outside the halls of government. Now they are just Lobbyist!

In my own obtuse way, I’m looking for some balance, balance that you fail to show much interest it in , it seems.

This pie in the sky notion that the Libertarian offer the only solution to today’s problems is in itself obtuse and short sided thinking.

We have an openly corrupt system of government that is sympathetic to any business interest or concern that can pony up the loot and very few others. Libertarian, republican democrat makes little difference. They will say what must be said to gain a position and once in, try to keep it, anyway possible.

Neither has the desire, the balls or power to ferret out fraud or conflict of interest. Who is going to attempt to beat themselves up? Look what happen to Teddy Kennedy or John. You believe that’s coincidental? You believe that a nickle and dimer strip club owner like Ruby was just so overwhelmed with grief that he had to lay Oswald out in front of God and everybody before he could sing?

So until some Candidate comes forward and singles these things out with the power behind him to address them,we are left to pick the brightest less guilt of the bunch that shows some interest in defending the host from all the parasites.

I don’t approve of sweat shops and huge inequities and great unbalances. They are not sustainable but of course what is?

There is no “WIN” to be had in this game for the American people, but only hopes of cut our loses. To think otherwise is to be Obtuse.

@bob wire

There’s nothing wrong with sweat shops if the workers are willing to tolerate the conditions. Fighting them just puts people out of work.

Now … the only rising water we have is prices. Putting a tariff on Chinese goods does us no benefit whatsoever. If the Chinese are suffering, it is up to them to correct the problem. I’m just a consumer of the goods they sell. And I’m more than happy to pay $5.00 for a set of flatware than to pay $20.00 for Made in the U.S.A. versions of the same product. I sure as hell don’t want to pay $20.00 for the Chinese version because some ignorant politician decided that it was needful to put a $15.00 tariff on the imported flatware to equalize the trade. All they’re really doing is robbing me of a book and a lunch at McDonald’s, which is what I might have spent the other $15.00 on if they hadn’t stolen it from me to allegedly save jobs.

And there’s really no such thing as hoarding. Although … a funny thought:

The idea of inflation is to put idle funds to work by devaluing the “hoarded” wealth of the wicked thrift. If a man has $5.00 and could buy a meal at McDonald’s, but saves the money instead, when he finally decides to go buy that McDonald’s lunch ten years later, he finds that it costs him $7.50. Through inflation, the government managed to steal $2.50 of his $5.00 and put it to work right under his nose.

It can therefore be seen that at least one of the purposes of inflation is to prevent hoarding through the act of devaluation.

Yet, as a result of rampant inflation, a strange phenominon occurs. People start putting their cash money into gold and silver, which the government has no real power to devalue, unless the alchemist has finally discovered the secret to producing gold from nothing. And it is a well known fact amongst investors that gold, under normal circumstances, is not a good “investment” medium, because it doesn’t really grow. It takes inflation for the value of gold to do anything of significance. In other words, when you put your money in gold, all you are doing is storing your wealth.
But the more money printing the government causes, the greater the inflation rises, the more people put their money into gold.
In which case, inflation, designed to take idle funds and put them to work to counteract the hoarding of the wicked thrift, actually inspires people to protect their money by dumping it into gold, and then it is hoarded in truth, since gold is no longer used as a currency.

So heavy inflation is actually producing the very thing it is trying to prevent.

How’s that for irony?

Excuse me, it’s phenomenon, not phenominon. I thought it looked wrong.

Ironic, yes. But be it ironic or not, at present, gold and silver are much more secure “tangible assets” than IRA’s, Mutual Funds, 401-K’s etc. Hoarding, perhaps, but has it not occurred time after time? Perhaps I be a temporary financial fool, but I most certainly will be more at ease when everything comes crashing down and a “Federal Reserve Note” will assume a new occupation – toilet paper.

You misunderstand me. I don’t mean to complain about hoarding. In my opinion, money is nothing. It is only the good or service that truly matters. The economy is organic, not circular.

I only mean to point out the irony that deliberate inflation, which is in part designed to circumvent hoarding, has actually led to the hoarding they were trying to prevent, and in a much more potent way.

Hording on a commercial wholesale level hurts everyone. While some hording is always good. Several billion not being used or leverage is a waste and almost criminal.

Buying stolen good from a pawn shop hurts everyone.

Buying products made by sweat shops hurts everyone.

Imbalance trade practices hurts everyone.

Fraud,theft,embellishing,cheating hurts everyone.

But then a great day for the snake is a bad day for the frog.

You cant expect those who have”sold their souls to the company store” to understand logic.
That goes for those here in the U.S.A.,and for those in China.-CC.

alex Frazier, here’s the fly in the ointment in your post, so to speak. Take Milwaukee tools. The Chinese bought them out, lock, stock, and barrel. They moved ALL operations to the mainland, to a 1 million sq. foot facility. Now, these tools are going to be made at one fifth the cost they were in the US,shipped here under the milwaukee tool name, and sold at the same price they were when made here in the US!! Check out the prices of the tools in your local hardware or lumberyard. Didn’t change a bit!!!

If they’re being manufactured at a fifth of the cost and being sold at the same price, assuming there’s no tariff or other government control, then that’s definitely a problem.

I would say, under that specific type of circumstance, that a boycott is in order.

If the Chinese can manufacture the same quality of goods, then ship them all the way across the Pacific Ocean, and all at 1/5 the cost, I would say that was a pretty damning indictment of our very spoiled country.
I also want to know how people can fret over the cost of such things as the cost of tools when Government is taking 40% of our GDP. That is .4*$14.7 Trillion or $5.9 Trillion each year. Considering that we have about 320 million people, that equates to $18,400 for each and every man, woman, and child in this country, or about $57,000 for each average family in the country — EVERY YEAR.
Also, consider the fact that Hong Kong and Singapore get along with less than half of those expenditures on Government, and their economies are robust.
It’s time to wake up, people.

Protectionism, which can only be instituted after convincing people that buying cheaper goods is hazardous to their well-being, was a major causal factor of the Great Depression. Please read this and do some thinking before you allow yourself to jump on the Protectionist Wagon:
http://mises.org/daily/2070

We need all the clear thinkers we can get to stop the runaway Big Government Train that is going to destroy our country.

So when I worked during the summer picking fruit that was slave labor? I wanted to and I saved 3/4 of the money I earned for college. Now you can’t hire kids to work because our laws won’t allow it. If I had a choice of working or not eating I would work.

I own a business, the IRS and the government will not allow me to hire my children even though they want to earn extra money. Seems their age affects whether they want to do something or not according to our government.

Meteorlady,
I too, have those memories. I picked apples, peaches and pears. Then I also worked in the feilds with the Mexicans picking tomatoes and asparagus!! The parents today give their kids too much!!

Are you talking about State law, Lady? According to this webpage, you can employ your children except in certain occupations:
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/youthlabor/employmentparents.htm

Of course, it really is none of Government’s business if your kids want to work. In a Libertarian society we wouldn’t have that problem.

texastwin827, some of America’s WORST liars are the ones who give us ‘candidates’ who offer us a path to self-destruction via path A or path B. That is, you can vote for this worthless, puppet SOB, or you can vote for that worthless, puppet SOB.
It is NOT a choice. It’s nothing less than trying to vote for the lesser of two evils, and that ALWAYS nets us evil. The ‘love affair’ of a two party system can’t work, and our current economic and political mess proves it.
“Trusting” that someone is worth keeping in Washington is the final insult. All that gets us is another career politician who a) gets rich b) has job security via stupid voters and c) proves that America is a land full of manipulated sheep.
Our main purpose as Americans is to 1) let the problem continue or 2) SOLVE the problem.

sc,
I still say the exception to that is Ron Paul!!!

Texastwin you are right in that Congress is supposed to make the laws of the land. However, this usurper in the WH is bypassing Congress by issueing his Executive Orders. Congress is too cowed by him to challenge his authority to do so. While it isn’t illegal for the President to issue SOME types of Executive Orders, he has issued some that clearly are not within his power to do so. What he cannot do legally he will do by fiat. We must be rid of him in 2012, otherwise we are doomed as a Constitutional Republic. It will take us years, if not generations, to overcome the damage he and his accolytes have already caused.

It all seems to come back to Congress not doing their job. Almost no one in our Congress brings up the Federal Reserves or corrects the problems of the last decades. Whether true financial reform or special favors. They are protecting themselves and are afraid to upset or take on their donors. They are deathly afraid to take the crony out of capitalism.

That’s not entirely true. There are a number of members of congress who are fighting against the Fed. The Senators and Representatives from my state are fighting it.

And it’s worth noting that the reason congress isn’t getting anything done is that there are two completely opposite points of view that are so incompatible with each other that there is no reasonable way to compromise from either side without giving up the integrity of what they believe to be the correct solution for the country’s woes.

So don’t be too harsh on congress. The reason they haven’t reached a solution is that they are all fighting the good fight on our behalf.

Alex,
Please don’t say they ALL are fighting the good fight for us!! They ALL aren’t!! A limited few are fighting for US the rest are fighting for party and their pockets!!

No, I do not mean to say that they are ALL fighting the good fight for our sakes. But I would be willing to bet that there are more of them fighting on our behalf than most people realize. I think the problem is more principle than party.

That’s my opinion, anyway. None of us has any way to know for sure without being present.

Alex, I think there would be more of them fighting the good fight but that they are under duress from the bankers. Think “grassy knoll”.
End the Fed.

MNice,
Kinda puts a whole new meaning to a world currency won’t work, when they plan to kick a few out, doesn’t it??

Aniko states, “Good presidents know how to cooperate, acknowledge and support others when they have lost any chance of becoming THE leader!”

Unfortunately Aniko we do not have a “good President” currenty occupying the WH. He envisions himself as “The Messiah” brought forth to rule, not govern, the citizens/people of this great Republic. May God help us to be rid of him and his cohorts in 2012.

@Aniko

What does being a Bob Livingston or Ron Paul supporter have to do with someone having poor grammar or punctuation? Are you trying to suggest that only morons support such men?

Furthermore, what makes you so special that you can criticize someone over spelling and punctuation? I read all the same posts you do. I’ve had to slog through many poorly written posts. Some of them were even yours. What gives you the right to be such a butthole?

Moving on to more important things …

Ron Paul’s solutions can be implemented if the congress votes for positive legislation. His solutions can be implemented in some cases through justified executive authority, such as bringing the troops home. His solutions can be implemented by following the constitution.

Frankly, if you don’t like Ron Paul’s solutions, what you are really telling the world is that you don’t like the constitution. And if you are in favor of what we have, and where it is we are headed, perhaps you should take up residence in Russia, China, or North Korea. It doesn’t take a dictator to follow the constitution. It takes a dictator to ignore it.

And Ron Paul can’t endorse anyone else because they all support policies that are destructive to our nation. You want him to “cooperate”? You want him to support the policies that are destroying the future for my grandchildren who haven’t yet been born?

Maybe you should cooperate with my policy of you jumping off a bridge. It doesn’t matter if my policy might be destructive, particularly for you. If nothing else, it will get the multiplier going, because your death will provide work for the boat crew that pulls your body out of the river, work for the police who have to investigate your death, work for the coroner who has to cut you up, work for the mortician, work for the grave digger, work for the company that makes the machine for digging the grave, work for the limo company that supplies the herse, work for the driver who transports the coffin, work for the coffin maker, work for the lumber yard that supplies the wood, work for the brass makers and miners, work for the metal craftsman, work for the manufacturers of the tools, work for the auto manufacturer who makes the car, work for the paint company that supplies the auto paint, etc., etc., etc.

So you see, it will be a great benefit to the economy.

Too bad that uncooperative Republican butthole keeps objecting and saying, “… but Aniko would be dead!”

Don’t be an idiot. There are far too many people like you who let their opinions get in the way of their common sense.

What got in his way of “common sense”? Really, common sense has been on the “endangered species” list for well over thirty years. His train of thought is a prime example thereof.

What a unpleasant, boring, pompous hypocritical windbag you are Alex. You are truly representative of the causes you espouse. Last week you criticized my post for its styilization yet you defend poor grammar on another day. Then as per your usual M.O. you tell someone they are a moron and they should kill themselves. Writing your copiously wordy e-mails doen’t make you right, indeed it usually reveals your poor understanding of basic logical thought. As for all the abuse and hatred it merely illustrates that despite your frequent biblical platitudes you have not ever understood a word that was written in your New Testament. However I consider being told I am wrong and should take cyanide by such a loathesome individual as proof positive that my opinions are correct. PS your ability to quote cereal box level investment strategy doesnt make you clever either.

Actually, John, it was only you that I suggested should kill themself. With Aniko I was demonstrating that a destructive policy with dire consequences shouldn’t be pushed or cooperated with just because there are some who would judge it meritorious due to its positive effects.

And for the record, I generally save the insulting words for people like you and similar who do not come on these threads to share their opinion, but who come on here to criticize other people and call THEM names.

Jesus called the ruling authorities fools, hypocrites, blind guides, tombs full of dead bones, and serpents. In modern day terms relative to the Jewish culture of the time (which deemed dead bodies and serpents amongst the foulest of things), Jesus called them every four-letter word in our vocabulary. Jesus also told people that it was better for them to tie a millstone around their necks and cast themselves into the sea rather than harm a child.

So I have no issue from a Christian perspective calling a spade a spade when they come in here and belligerently misguide people, especially when that misguidance will lead them to vote in a way that hurts ME. Nor do I have a problem telling someone like you (in fact, after reflection I recall that it was ONLY you I suggested this to) that they should kill themselves, since they are hurting the young.

The truth hurts, so I expect that I would be unpleasant to the likes of you. I can’t help it if economics and politics is boring to you. Perhaps you should find a different forum platform that is more exciting. I don’t know what hypocrisy you might be referring to. You can say it, but it doesn’t mean it’s true, unless you have an example you can give (you actually proved that it was not so, since you said I was truly representative of the causes I espouse).

I didn’t defend poor grammar. I criticized the needless criticizing of it. Someone’s point of view isn’t wrong because their spelling or punctuation is off.

Wordy emails are necessary. Unlike some (read “you” in this instance), I don’t state that something is so without explanation. I provide proof or argument. As a result, no one that I’m aware of has been able to contradict me. Even you in this instance did not demonstrate anything I’ve said to be incorrect. All you’re doing is insulting me, and that’s very typical of a person who has run out of intelligent things to say.

Please demonstrate my “poor understanding of basic logical thought.” I’m open to the dialogue if you have a legitimate gripe about my arguments.

And please, do tell me about me “cereal box level investment strategy.” From where I’m sitting, I see that I’ve made a goodly sum in investments this year. If you have something to add to my strategies, which you don’t really know anything about, then I’m all ears. I’d be glad to make more than what I have already.

John, I’ve gone back through my posts. Except for a brief mention about where gold should be, and that people heavily invested should be mindful of a plunge, I don’t see anything I’ve written about investment strategies.

Did I miss it? Or was that just one of many baseless accusations on your part?

Tell me again, if you would, what those strategies are. Which stocks am I invested in? Oh, and could you please advise me on why I chose puts and calls over shorts and longs? Why did I choose options over stocks again?

I have some odor eaters if you need to get the taste of that foot out of your mouth.

john,
YOU speak of COPIUSLY WORDED POSTS??? I can’t figure who is worse, you or bobwire!!!

A bit full your yourself I think. I don’t believe that you have a basic understanding of the trouble we are in as a nation.

The DEBT is the 5000 elephant in the room that NO ONE WANT TO TALK ABOUT. So the CBO released some information awhile back…..

If our federal government does not spend another cent on anything new, no new programs, no cabinet level positions, no more employees, nor more departments… and spending stays at the same level as today

By 2021 we will be paying $1.4 trillion just to service the DEBT.
By 2046 all we will be able to do is pay the interest, no more government, more services, no more anything.

If we started today and paid $100 MILLION per day toward the debt it would take us 389 years to pay it off.

Is that the legacy you want to leave for your children? As for a dictator, we have one right now in office. The congressional committee to cut $1.7 TRILLION? It’s unconstitutional as the House is the entity that makes the budget decisions.

“As for a dictator, we have one right now in office.”

Absolutely correct. He now rules by abusive executive order and fear mongering.

moonbeam:

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Aniko wrote, “Ron Paul’s solution can be “implemented” only if we elect a dictator.” That is not necessarily so. We would need to elect a lot of honest people to Congress, but it could happen. As for Ron Paul in the White House, he would try to implement his policy by using his veto power if necessary. If Congress doesn’t like it, Congress can vote to override the veto.

However, unlike the current occupant of the White House, I don’t expect Ron Paul would try to legislate by executive order if he can’t get his way with Congress. Mr. Obama’s abuse of executive orders is dictatorial.

From Ron Paul’s plan to restore America:
“President Paul will also cancel all onerous regulations previously issued by Executive Order”.

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/ron-paul-plan-to-restore-america/

try putting your very bias commas and periods and oh get a life blind person.wow my writing style is now a national problem.liberals not even good fish bait

Aniko corrects somebody else’s grammar and then says this — “Sentences within a phrase are delineated by comas”. What? Sentences within a phrase? That’s a new one.
Try phrases within a sentence, Aniko.
Do you think that by dragging down others, Aniko, you will somehow stand taller?

LMAO!!! Good catch, Dave.

Thanks Dave. I was kinda scratchin’ my head over that one. It’s gettin’ late and I have been staring at this thing for far too many hours…

Dave, Aniko is probably a Unionized half assed English teacher somehere…

Aniko:

Why are you ragging on preston? It is not he who made the grammatical errors, it was his keebord. Simple as that.

Isn’t if funny that so few have read “The Creature from Jekyll Island”? That one book would enlighten them tremendously if they’d just read it.

I’ve read it. It’s a good book. It has a lot of good information in it.

BUT … it’s not the only book out there, and it’s very conspiracy theoryish (although admittedly in a believable way).

Why the attack on Jerry, Lastman?
The Fed is indeed a mysterious agency to most of the American public. And they prefer it that way.

if one is on this site, he/she had better know damn well what the fed is and who they are…our lives depend on it.

Exactly. The more we rid our country of Socialism, the safer it will be for those who put the time and effort into learning how to do the right things for their futures. As it stands now, the prudent investors must support those who haven’t made the effort. That’s wrong morally and it’s wrong economically which is why there is a consistent correlation between Big Government and weak economies:
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

You missed the bigger point in that this problem has been around for 100 years. That the Federal Reserve has too much power under Republican and Democrats “regimes”. Ron Paul sees the problem and wants to fix it while the rest of the pack would continue this charade.

WOW Eddie – you have certainly evolved on this board. I haven’t been here for a time and I’m impressed that logic has won you over.

He’s got a long way to go, Lady.
And most likely if or when he gets there he will act as if he’s teaching us.

DaveH;

That’s a goodn! LOL!

Actually I could teach Dave a thing or two but his politics in a lock box.One way Dave!

That’s because, Eddie, I have Principles. Mine don’t change depending on which party is in office.

eddie, I think Zack didn’t miss the point. We can’t fix the Federal Reserve problem until the government problem is fixed. It’s really that simple.(only in relative terms)

Ron Paul has been the only representative that has dared to consistantly call out the Federal Reserve, who by the way, control our government and our economy. This isn’t a right/left fight, liberal/conservative fight nor a Democrat/Republican fight or a rich CEO-corporatin vs the poor fight…it is a right vs wrong(Federal Reserve, Central banks, World banks)fight and your and my country’s constitutional existance hangs in the balance. The Federal Reserve Act and the Federal Reserve must be abolished plain and simple.

The sooner the people wake up and realize, this does include the mis-directed co-opted protesters on Wall Street, that we have to remove the failing policymakers in our government and elect leaders with strong constitutional ethics. Our current government system is full of corruption and must be returned to a government bound by a fundamental law…constitutionalism.

Until this happens…we can kiss the good ole USA goodby!

Mr. Linvingston!!!

Who has hijacked eddie?! It must be a flacious IP address! Please look into this quickly!

OH, don’t be fooled…it’s called parroting…you’ll see…

Old Henry,
don’t forget to consider that eddie might have bought into CABs mantra so he is supporting R. paul so his hero can get re-elected!!

What else copy and paste Jeff, What else could it be!

Parroting again eddie? I thought you had accused Freedom Fighter of copy and paste too? Does that make you jealous because you don’t know how? Two of here have offered to teach you how. Of course, you also get jealous when sc posts the first comments of the day. It must really suck to be envious of others.

Depends when you bought the gold. It rose massively in the late 1970′s, and reached a higher price in “real” terms (allow inflation) than it is now. However, the reason it rose so much seems to relate to getting rid of the “gold standard”. There are many people now predicting that it will rise a lot more over the next few years. One of the problems is that some organisations are “selling gold”, but they “store” if for you. I understand that these organisations actually only hold about 2% of the gold that they are “selling”. It is a new gambling casino. I guess they learned from the “Banksters .. maybe they are the same people. If I can’t con you into buying “green stuff” anymore, I will sell you yellow stuff. Aren’t I generous!

Alcam:

You are correct. However, I have read that they only hold 1%.

Never, ever, fall for that scam. Buy PHYSICAL gold and silver. Buy a fire-proff safe and store it yourself.

Would you feel better with a real female in your hands, or a Playbor Magazine? One is real (physical) the other is make-belive (storing).

Outstanding analogy Old Henry! If people can’t tell the difference between worthless paper and actually holding gold or silver in their hand then they’d probably believe M&M’s could cure cancer – if the government said so. . .

Well, at least the magazine won’t sue you for ‘harassment’!

I thought those new blue ones did cure cancer Sirian…

Yeah Peter, but the pages stick together…

Old Henry,
You have to watch buying it on the open market like pawn shops and flea markets as well. there are a lot of counterfeit silver and gold coins out there. some of them you can’t tell without knowin the weight of said coin and weighing it!

Here is a deep treatment of the value of gold by Ron Paul:
http://mises.org/books/goldpeace.pdf

Gold, like any investment, is subject to be overpriced or underpriced at any one point in time. It’s main value is that of protecting your cash assets from the ravages of inflation due to too much creation of fiat money. So, if you believe that the Federal Reserve is going to continue to print money at a dizzying pace, then you would be willing to pay more for the gold than its current value in order to provide “insurance” against the future devaluation of the dollar. But nobody knows for sure what the future holds, so of course there is some risk. But there usually is for most investments. One thing for sure, is that there is Great Risk in holding too much of your assets in cash investments such as bonds, deposits, and Government securities.

Ron Paul’s portfolio is almost entirely made up of gold and silver mining stocks. He has very little in other areas.

Allied Nevada Gold Corp.
Alumina Common
Anglo Gold Ashanti Ltd.
Brigus Gold Corp.
Barrick Gold Corp.
Claude Rsearch Inc.
Coeur D’Alene Mines Corp.
Dundee Bankcorp
First National Bank of Lk. Jackson
Gold Corp, Inc.
Hecla Mining
El Dorado Gold Corp.
IAM Gold Corp
Kinross
Lexam Explorations Inc.
Mag Silver Corp
Metaline Mining
Mutual Securities
Newmont Mining Corp.
Pan American Silver
petrol Oil & Gas
Prudent Bear Mutual Fund
Rydex Dynamic Venture
Rydes-Ursa Mutual Fund
Silver Wheaton Corp
Texas Dow Employees Credit Union
Texas Gulf Bak
Virginia Mines
Vista Gold Corp
Viterro Inc
Wesdome Gold Mines

Seems he practices what he preaches…..

The truth is, an ounce of gold will buy the same amount of goods now that it did then. This can be easily proven by searching archives of the prices of goods and services at any given time and compare them to gold prices at the time. I like to use the example of a nicely equipped new car or a handmade tailored suit. In 1913, gold was valued at $18.92 per ounce. At that time the aforementioned suit cost around $15 and the car went for around $600. In 2011, gold hovers around $1700. Currently, a handmade tailored suit goes for around $1500 and an equivalent new car costs around $50,000. The gold-dollars ratio is approx. 30:1 (gold has the same purchasing power in almost any economy we have experienced in the 20th century), and it holds true for the 70′s where 30 ounces of gold (@ 250oz in ’78-’79)is $7500, which is about what cars cost at that time. Only a gold standard (or a currency based on a strong commodity) can ensure a stable economy. Ron Paul is the only candidate to support reforms that will strengthen our currency.

Only because of the recent soaring of gold prices has gold essentially just kept up w/ inflation since it was at $285 in the late 70′s. It’s now almost certainly a bubble due to the actions of big banks and deregulators,as well as the uncertainty globally. If things calm down soon,as they probably will,gold will burst,back to under $1000.

I agree. Relative to the reported CPI from 1933 to 2001, the price of gold in dollars should be approximately $600 an ounce right now.

Those CPI figures, of course, are manipulated like many others, but when you do the math, you will find that the price of gold relative to inflation was dead on in 2001. Following the same trend line, gold would be sitting in the $600 range. However, all the precious metals have gone on a divergent trend line into a J curve that very much resembles the spike in palladium in the early 2000s. Palladium, over two or three years, went from $200is per ounce to over $1100, and then dropped all the way back down into an over-correction in the $100s.

The J curve in the entire PM sector looks just like it, and I suspect that they will all come crashing down as soon as the right piece of news, or the right change in policy, comes to pass.

We should all own some gold, or silver if you can’t afford the gold. But don’t get caught with your pants down. If you have your whole fortune in gold, or if you are buying on margin, watch out for the plunge. It’ll be coming sooner or later.

Wise investors base their decisions not just on current value, but also on future value. Unless somebody like Ron Paul gets in and reigns in Government and the Federal Reserve, we are almost certainly going to see more Government spending and more dollar creation, thus a weaker and weaker dollar which will result in more dollars needed to buy the same amount of Gold.

Ron Paul says some interesting and good things.He also goes out on the kook limb at times,and comes across as part kook and part curmudgeon…can’t even come close to winning the nomination. How can a Republican get the nomination if he doesn’t cowtow to the fundamentalists,both religious and political? He can’t. They want someone to return us to a corporate and religious oligarchy. Romney is the sure nominee,so get ready to vote for a kooky Mormon who believes in a kooky and ridiculous religion.

Denniso – he is not a kook. He is the only candidate that is hard working, practices what he preaches, and is HONEST. I’m sure that the GOP has made a deal with Romney and I’m also sure that he is expecting to get the nomination. Since most other candidates do not get equal time in the media I have to assume the media has also “chosen” him. But…. I will not vote for him or Obama – they are both controlled by special interests and Romney can’t even run on his success in his home state because it’s bankrupt.

If Ron Paul gets the nomination, I will vote for him. If not, I will vote for the Libertarian Presidential Candidate. There really is no other Principled choice.

meteorlady,
denniso says that because Ron Paul, unlike the rest of the pols tells you the truth and not just what you want to hear!!!

I’ve already said that I don’t dislike everything about Paul,but he has some pretty juvenile and absurd positions that will keep him out…not to mention that he has no charisma or presense at all. ‘If he wins the nomination’?? If a comet hits the earth? If everyone plays nice? If everyone was responsible? If I were rich?

As usual, we get what we’ve been accustomed to hearing from Denniso — “He also goes out on the kook limb at times,and comes across as part kook and part curmudgeon”.
Where’s the substance, Denniso, or don’t you have any?

…not to mention the Tea Party with their guns…

Vote Romney Denniso? NEVER. I will vote for the Libertarian.

So, you are in effect assuring the re-election of Obama. Thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You, Capitalist, are insuring mediocrity. Thanks to people like you I’ve had to watch my once great country slowly turn into a third world nation.

So Capitalist will vote for Romney? Why because he is a smooth talker even though he has flip flopped on almost every social and economic issue. If you loved the Bush wars and the Obama wars you will love Romney even more.

Dear Capitalist at Birth,

You write: “So, you are in effect assuring the re-election of Obama. Thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
No, it’s the elites who are attempting to force a NWO candidate on the electorate who are ensuring the re-election of Obama. Their candidates are Obama, Romney and Perry, as they play both sides against the middle. They are unconcerned as to whether their puppet bears a “D” or an “R”. But by all means they must ensure that the candidate is not named Paul, and to a lesser extent, Cain.

Best wishes,
Bob

Capitalist at Birth says:
November 14, 2011 at 12:44 pm
So, you are in effect assuring the re-election of Obama. Thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In case you haven’t noticed Capitalist, Obama is merely the worst of a very long line of Globalists that have been selling us out.
Go Libertarian.

Capitalist at Birth will just follow the herd. It’s safer, and easier that way. No thinking involved! Duhh….

No Capitalist, the GOP will be assuring Little Barry’s re-election. Just as they assured his election in 208 with Juan Mc Cain. The Sarah drug him across the finish line.

O H,
with the help of people like denniso an CAB!!

I love to see squabbling between the so called libertarians and Repubs! Keep it up,and by all means vote for a libertarian who can’t come close to winning. Political purity is much more important than pragmatism. I too would never vote for Romney,who will be the nominee. His absurd Mormon beliefs should stop anyone in their tracks,even rightwing kooks.

I think it was last week that I heard Huckaby on the radio state that a “head-hunter” had set up a table near the OWS offering legitimate jobs. He had TWO of the OWS participants fill out apps. All the rest had excuses as to why they could not fill out apps.

Click on the link I posted and watch the 4 minute presentation. There is some bad language at the very end.

O H,
sounds about par for the course!! Like I said above too many of them are looking for things handed to them on a silver platter!!

That was “cute”. Is that the same corporations that have taken away those 401′s and threw their employee’s to the wolves? I think a reasonable person wants reasonable things in life whether cell phones or clothing. So this video is only self righteous puffery by this author. It may be unfortunate that all corporations get thrown into the mix when attacking greed but some of those corporations have done harm to America also. Lehman Brothers and the others were real and they hurt the public and the public has responded. Will these “greedy” businesses make changes and show responsibility in how they make profits? This outcome will be interesting.

It’s not self-righteous. It points out the hypocrisy on the part of the Fleabaggers. And they are indeed slobs of the first magnitude.

Most of them are trust-funders who don’t need to work. I posted a link to an article a couple of weeks ago for Karolyn that pointed out that fact.

However, there is some contrived violence by interlopers such as went on in CA where black hooded individuals swooped in and began creating violence (I can’t find that link). And police violence in TX. See this link.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/5716.html

Those black hooded people were from a separate self proclaimed anarchist group calling themselves “Black Box”. An OWS spokes person said, “they weren’t invited and they aren’t welcome.”

Old Henry, thanks for the link. I watched it all the way through even though I didn’t agree with everything he was saying. I hope you folks noticed the story in the side bar, “Bill Maher: “New Rules For Occupy Wall Street”. I know you don’t like Maher but if you watch it to the end there is more info on the OWS movement.

Old Henry, I didn’t realize you had posted another link. I’m talking about the first one from you tube.

And that is because Government is just too damn Big. Let’s change that. Vote Libertarian:
http://libertarianparty.org/issues

huh?

Okay, let me explain it in simpler terms for you, JTB. If the size of our Government was greatly reduced, corruption would be greatly reduced because Government wouldn’t have its tentacles into so many things in our economy, thus there would be fewer reasons for corrupt people to bribe their favorite Politicians and Bureaucrats. Get it now?

Eliminate ALL lobbyists. Then go from there, but we can’t go Libertarian because it would tear our country apart. I know you don’t think so DaveH, but I have known some libertarians and they raally scare me with some of the tactics they want to use.

Come on, Vet. You’ve risked your life in the Air Force and you are afraid of Freedom?
I can’t vouch for your Libertarian friends because anybody can claim to be anything they want, but True Libertarians are as far away from scary as anybody can get. We have absolutely no desire to mess with your life choices as long as you don’t trespass on our bodies or property.

Libertarians are going nowhere,never have,never will. Libertarians are basically either naive in their trust of individuals in a capitalist,dog eat dog system…or they are just greedy and self centered enough to want to exploit others. Either way,they are essentially a very tiny minority w/ no clout. Ron PAul as their standard bearer indicates just that.

And denniso proves once again that Liberals see bad in everything.
I think that “liberals” need to to live in a socialist society in a different country sinse they know nothing of human civility.
Let THEM eat each other alive when there’s no nasty capitalists to provide for them.

Sorry, Denniso, but you Liberals have proved over and over again with your tactics of Force and Coercion that you are the Dog-eaters.

Libertarians do not have a chance of winning any election. Why are you beating your head against the wall?

Capitalist at Birth, other than the fact you despise Libertarians, just what do you hope to accomplish by parroting your comments over and over? If you haven’t noticed already, nobody’s buying your shtick!

I guess because it’s at least nobler than voting for one of the same two criminal parties over and over and over and over…until we get the thoroughly corrupt and irrepairable system we have today.
Restore the Republic!

I’m not beating my head against the wall, Capitalist. I’m voting on Principle. You ought to try it.
I have often sacrificed comfort and money for my morality. But, I like myself. That’s more important than all the money in the world.

CAB,
Are you THAT sacred of the Libertarian creed??? Are you afraid of smaller government? Freedom? Are you THAT SCARED OF OUR CONSTITUTION??? I suggest you see a Dr. about that over riding phobia!! As to the over riding part, it is over riding your common sense!!!

Maybe we trust people like Bernake because they are highly trained in the field of economics? Can they be wrong ever? Sure! Economics is not a hard science where facts and numbers are sacrosanct. It’s partly an art,where human emotion and psychology are an integral aspect in the economy. They can also be as wrong as Greenspan was in believing the childish libertarian babble of Ayn Rand,who professed a silly and utterly uninformed believe in ‘free’ markets unhindered by ANY regulation,and that greed was good as a necessary part of the glorious ‘free’ market.

As to this being a depression we’re in? Don’t think so…walk out on the street and count the number of $30,000 and $40,000 cars/SUVs buzzing around unconcerned about the paltry 20-25 mpg they get on a tank of gas. Drive through an average neighborhood and notice all the oversized homes w/ multiple nice cars out front,many w/ pools in the back. Walk into any level of cafe/restaurant and see how many people are eating out and dropping a hundred $ and more for dinner. Check out the lines in any airport around the country and try telling me we are living in a depression…where are all the mllions of people flying to and how can they afford it?

We have had job growth for about 2 yrs,it’s just not large enough to catch up to the population growth that adds millions of new workers every yr,or enough to make up for all the jobs lost during the initial stages of the crash. A real depression would look fundamentally different than what we have now. Also it would look different than the first 2 yrs of the Reagan term,which was almost exactly what we have going on now…the big difference is that this crash was the largest since the real Depression 80 yrs ago,and this will take more time getting out of than the Reagan recession did…especially w/ the rightwing extremist, Ayn Rand lovers blocking absolutely any solutions to help the problem.

You are absolutely right!!

denniso you really are in the tank for the Progressive/Socialist foolsmwho are not only underming our Country but are determined to bankrupt and ruin it. Please try to get your head out of the sand and educate yourself. The “Economists” whom you revere have been consistantly wrong, time after time, while enriching themselves and their colleagues at the expense of the American people. Grow up!

And who is it you think knows what’s best for the economy? Politicians? The totally uneducated in economics rabble? The vaunted tea partiers w/ guns strapped to the hips? You,like most in this country,also are likely not educated in economics,right? Most of those who bitch the loudest have little idea about how their glorious ‘free’ market is even supposed to work. You?

You are one of those who are totally uneducated in Economics, Denniso. Don’t pretend otherwise. That is why you must Liberally sprinkle your comments with ridicule and name-calling. If you knew the facts that wouldn’t be necessary.
I would debate your previous comment, but I doubt that the intelligent readers need my rebuttals to figure out that a guy, who judges the economy based on how many expensive cars he can count, has no clue what he’s talking about.

@denniso

I’m educated in economics. I bitch loud, and I know precisely how the free market works.

Zack:

Denniso has been wandering around the halls here for quite some time and has not learned a thing – nor will he.

Denniso is one of those socialists who thinks the U.S. needs to be smacked down a peg or two because we as a nation have become so prosperous and the envy of the world.

He has no interest in becoming informed as socialists are the do as I say, I know best whatis best for you and everyone else. That is their mindset, their core belief.

They should all be given a one-way ticket to Europe where they can live among like-minded socialists and leave this country for folks who want to prosper and grow.

What many are not considering is that perhaps Greenspan and Bernanke knew exactly what they did and did it deliberately. Perhaps they are the brilliant economists everyone believes them to be. But greed can get the best of a person. They manipulated the economy to benefit a small group of the population and it worked! They got richer and the rest of us got poorer. As for counting those with big homes and expensive cars to gauge whether we are in a depression or not, how many of those people are barely getting by with their loan payments? How many are in foreclosure? Wasn’t it only a few years ago that the government encouraged people to trade in their junk cars for more expensive cars with a tax break and lower interest rates? Now they have these loans on new cars and are still broke!

Denniso – I have a Masters in economics and I WRITE my congressional representatives all the time. It’s probably doing no good, but I try. As for your comments, free enterprise is good. If I don’t make money, I don’t perform simple right?

Henry,
Denniso doesn’t learn, probably because he has his hand in the till and doesn’t want to learn. He told us at one time that he built houses for a living. I don’t believe him, but if true, I could sure see why he begs for that Big Government, because the home-building industry would suck for quite a while if Government wasn’t bailing out the home builders with other peoples’ money.

denniso, just do yourself and everyone else a favor, get out of America. That you were born here is an obvious mistake of nature.

I see little wrong with Bob Livingston’s article (one of his best)and that of Denniso. Denniso was hardly defending Bernanke either. To me Bob was saying why can’t we get it right after all these years and we have all fallen into this false trap of accepting inflation.We saw higher home prices and thought we owned a gold mine but it was a false illusion.

Holy cow eddie! It appears that some of The Livingston School of Free Thinkers is begining to sink in! Congratulations. In a while you mab be able to leave the annex and walk in the actual halls with the rest of us.

(Oh, and please keep that snow and ferocious wind out there with you)

We saw higher home prices because of artificial manipulation of the market. The first indicator that something was wrong is when home prices rose faster that rising wage and salary income. Most people believe that home prices rise, but in fact most rises are the result of inflation.

At the same time credit was fast and loose and people signed on to make money buying houses they could not afford. People created a bubble in private debt thinking that the good times would just last and last.

While home prices were rising, people that were buying home only had a 2% increase in their income. Once housing started to collapse the mortgage market went, followed by the stock market. Now discretionary spending is low, it’s really not very economical to own a home anymore, and the stock market is up and down like a yo yo.

Here’s the topper though – in 1960 our national DEBT

Eddie, you’re scaring me….gave you up a while ago…are you…considering to research for yourself accurate information elsewhere besides this site? Good grief…an open mind able to research on one’s own…what a thought…at least until Net Neutrality shuts down contrary opinion as well as archives a research material. BTW, Net Neutrality seems to be going into effect November 20th. I am personally very upset about this.

@denniso

Please demonstrate how free markets unhindered by regulation is a silly and uninformed belief.

Greed is a necessary part of the free market process because it is the service of self interest that dictates prices, labor, profits, supply and demand, etc. It is human nature to look out for one’s own best interest. It is also human nature to seek to obtain goods or services with the least amount of personal labor expended.

So as people, we look for the lowest prices, the greatest quantities, and the least painful way to aquire both. In a system that functions on the great illusion of money, the more money you have, the greater the quantity of pleasures and necessities you can meet in your own life. The more money you have, the less concern you have for your own well being, and that of your posterity, as you grow to old age. The more money you have, the more goods and services you can obtain with the least amount of effort.

This is greed, and it is part of human nature.

So people will seek the means to obtain and horde as much wealth as they can, in ever more innovative ways. This produces business and industry. No one starts a fur business because they have some desire to see all women wearing fur coats. They start the business because the women desire to see themselves in the fur coats, and the business man knows that he can profit from this demand by providing the supply.

So it’s ignorant to say that greed isn’t a necessary part of a healthy economy. It’s what makes the wheels of industry turn.

And the right wing extremists, as you call them, are not blocking solutions. They are blocking additional obstacles to a healthy recovery. Things like the Jobs Bill proposed by Obama do nothing at all but take from one area and give to another. It’s a shift of resources, not the creation of jobs. The government isn’t capable, financially, of creating anything. Every dollar spent to build a bridge is a dollar taken from a citizen who would have spent it on something else.

I would like to say, however, that although I think your take on economics lacks any real substance, I do agree that we are not in a depression. Prices and wages right now are both sticky. In a depression, prices and wages drop. It’s the opposite of inflation, where prices and wages increase. What we’re actually dealing with is a recession, where no one is really spending much money due to a lack of confidence. Although our situation does also match the criteria for stagflation.

Well stated Alex. However, we do have Depression era unemployment levels with actual unemployment at or near 20%.

Most important, Alex, is that in Free Markets, the people can choose the employment they desire (including starting their own businesses), and they can choose who to trade with — Voluntarily. Unlike in Unfree Markets where Government busy bodies restrict our choices, usually to feather their own or some Crony Capitalist’s nest.
The regulations, that Denniso thinks we can’t do without, in fact punish the good business operators by saddling them with unnecessary paperwork meant to (ostensibly) thwart the bad business operators. Instead we need just laws to punish the bad players when they actually are fraudulent and leave the good players alone.

Right on Alex. Whenever someone attacks greed they are attacking self-interest whether they know it or not. People hate free markets precisely because they are not based on the morality of self-sacrifice. The words “inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” are not words of self-sacrifice but are words of rational self-interest.

Alex…do you consider anti trust,anti collusion and anti monopoly laws to be regulation? If you know any economics then you know that before we instituted any of those laws we had nothing like a ‘free’ market. A truly free market quickly degenerates into monopoly and collusion. Not to mention that there are many aspects of human society that don’t work well,or at all,under ‘free’ markets. Everyone knows that if they read or think about it. The military,roads,sewerage systems,water treatment,flood control,healthcare,police/fire protection,all don’t work well or at all under free markets. Why did we come to the point a hundred yrs ago and more when society decided that the market couldn’t or wouldn’t do some things? Because we and other countries tried the market and it didn’t work. Why did we decide that banks had to be regulated? Because we tried it w/o regulation and it didn’t work! We’ve been through all this before,and we know the results. How many times do you people want to run the same failed experiment and get the same results,before you see the writing on the wall?

Gov’t services and gov’t regulation are not perect,but neither is the mythical ‘free’ market.

And to DaveH,the big talker…I told you what I did and still do for a living,among other things…all self employment. You chose to call me a liar,fine. You never told the people here where the money came from for you and the company you worked for to get paid in the aeronautical design business…most likely gov’t contracts,since there is almost no such thing as totally independent and self sufficient airplane companies that make all their money from totally non gov’t contracts. You most likely made a whole career off taxpayer money,especially so since you won’t talk about it.

You are a liar, Denniso.
I proved it right here in this thread:
http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/government/a-single-north-america/#comment-461756

Denniso said — “DaveH,for instance,has lived off of gov’t contracts for his working life and now collects benefits from the gov’t and a gov’t supported pension”.
That was a lie, Denniso. But then, you are a Liberal so I guess we’re supposed to cut you slack for doing what Liberals do so well.

denniso

Natural market forces are more powerful than you give them credit for. As Hayek points out, it was the free market system that brought us to the point of innovation, technological advancement, and the great expansion of industry and civilization. It was only then that governments began to impose controls under the false auspices of protection.

In other words, the free markets got us there, but it takes government control to keep us there.

The free market experiment was not a failure.

In contrast, government control deems every success a failure, every innovation a negative, every step forward a step backward.

If a man creates a product or service, he has the right to “pursue happiness” by capitalizing on his invention to the best of his ability. He has the right to make it the best it can be. He has the right to establish relationships with raw material vendors, with clientele, and with his consumer customer and retailer base.
Should that man decide to collude with another person to ensure that the profit of his invention or service is protected against encroachment by would-be copycats, he should have the right to do so. If the qualtiy, price, and excellence of his product should result in a natural monopoly, then it should be recognized as the product of his successful efforts.

Government control, on the other hand, would tell him that because there are others who feel they should have a piece of his pie, he cannot control the whole of his innovation. He is required to give up a piece of it to those who did not have the same vision, but are merely borrowing from him.
Government control would tell him that he cannot establish relationships with vendors for exclusivity. He is required to share his vendor base, rather than being able to control the supply relative to the demand to ensure price integrity and stability.
Government control would tell him that he cannot work together with vendors of his choice to prevent others from becoming competition to his innovation. He wants to discourage others from becoming competition, but the government won’t allow such a thing.

So the free market has been tried, and it was an overwhelmning success. What has been a definitive and provable failure is government control.

Although, for the record, I think that military, roads, water treatment and sewerage, flood control, police and fire protection all fall to the duties of the state or federal government, because they are benefits enjoyed by all.

Healthcare is the business of the individual.

I also agree that the free market has its own issues. But nearly so much as a government controlled system.

Read this Free online book, Alex, to discover that even such services as road building, police, and firefighters would be better served by the private sector:
http://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf

We already have private roads being built (toll roads, etc.), and private police services. And when services are provided by the private sector we aren’t nearly so likely to be treated in a condescending way as we are by Government workers.
If you get a chance to read “How Capitalism Saved America” you will discover that many (if not most) of the roads across America were built privately.

DaveH accuses me of being on the gov’t dole,a lie. I’ve asked him where the money came from that provided his aeronautical engineering salary,and he won’t say. So I then feel free to assume that the company he worked for and retired from was supported by gov’t contracts. He can clear it up and tell us if he is a hypocrite or not.

Alex,all countries have a mix of private and gov’t involvement in their economies,the question is what is the balance that works best. No modern large economies are all private,why? Because it has been tried and failed over and over. Research and developement? The internet came from military and university roots,neither one of which is all private.

There he goes again. You lie, Denniso. I accused you of advocating for Big Government because they subsidize your industry. That is, if it really is your industry. Since you have proven yourself to have no credibility, who knows?

Denniso just keeps on fishing. He’s mad because I won’t take his bait.
While I’m on that subject, Folks, let’s analyze the typical Liberal methods that Denniso is employing. His kind uses other peoples’ money to give you unsolicited gifts. Then if you take them, they try to guilt you into doing things their way. What manipulative creeps they are. Beware, Folks, of Greeks bearing gifts.

Mad? Bait? You are delusional…You accuse others of ‘being at the trough’,and ‘being on the gov’t dole’,all while you won’t tell your fellow gov’t haters where your money came from…like I said,probably from gov’t contracts. You are probably a hypocrite,like most of the people here who have had gov’t or gov’t supported jobs and then bitch and whine about big gov’t. You choose not to be honest and disclose where your company’s contracts came from,well I imagine that even the slowest of the rightwingers here can then draw the correct conclusion for themselves.

I built/designed modest sized homes,one at a time,w/ no gov’t help. The only incentive involved was the mortgage deduction for the owner,which was never very large or a deciding factor. If you want to do away w/ all supports,subsidies,incentives,then maybe you could start w/ the billions that support the fattest of the fatcats who run the oil/gas industry. The mortgage deduction is in place to help Americans afford the high cost of getting into a home,a seemingly good idea. It should be confined to first homes w/ a cap that excludes the wealthy and their mansions.

You are meaningless to me and hardly worth an emotion like ‘mad’.

It’s interestin g to me that most people who bitch about ‘big government’ seldom or never complain about our big,bloated military,which makes up a very large part of our big gov’t. Why hasn’t the tea party suggested cutting the military budget by 10% and saving over $50 billion per yr? Why don’t supposed conservatives who are supposedly concerned about our debt propose bringing home most of our soldiers from bases around the world? Why don’t we all suggest that our military is too damn big and expensive and wasteful,and that it’s time we cut it down to a reasonable size?

We spend as much on military as the entire rest of the world does…does that make any sense at all??

@denniso

Large economies that failed were due to government interference. The destructive factors of an economy are begat by force. A coercive monopoly, for example, is not the result of free trade, but of government intervention. A natural monopoly can always be entered by someone with enough capital, but a coercive monopoly is prohibited to them by law. Price controls don’t exist in a natural market. It takes government interference to fix prices. Unproductive industry can’t exist in a free market. It takes government subsidy to keep them afloat.

Name an alleged free market failure, and I’ll tell you the government interference that caused it.

And for the record, Ron Paul advocates cutting a significant part of the military budget (not the defense budget).

Dave, I went and read that book. I appreciate the link. It was enjoyable. But although some of his ideas on the privatization of roads, police, etc. were appealing in many ways, some of it would be contrary to the Constitution.

For example, Congress has the authority to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions. To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress (Article I, § 8, PP 15-16).

In short, a portion of the civilian population (the Militia) is to be trained, armed, organized, disciplined, and governed in the employment of the United States to execute the laws of the Union.

That’s the police, who are trained, organized, armed, and governed by the United States in their employ, but who are not military personnel.

Paragraph 7 also provides for Post Offices and Post Roads. Toll roads are not prohibited, but since the Post Office delivers to all addresses, it is difficult to argue against government financed roads. This is not to say that it’s the best way, but it’s in the Constitution. The Congress has the authority to build roads.

Then in Article III, § 1, it says that the judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the Supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their offices during good behavior, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services a compensation which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

So courts and justice are administered by the government through judges performing a compensable service.

I see what Rothbard is saying concerning these issues, and I don’t disagree with the merit of his arguments. But until we start from scratch and build a brand new government and Constitution, it’s not likely to come to pass.

Based on what you wrote you must work for the Federal Reserve. So how is it under Ben’s desk?

Now Ken, civil discourse, civil discourse…
LOL!

Now THAT was funny, Ken!

God Bless your humor.

O H,
Ken sounded pretty civil to me! ACCURATE TOO!!!

True. What has happened is that those whose labor is no longer needed are unemployed. In many cases their jobs have been “exported” to lands where people are ready and eager to work for far less than Americans could afford to accept. Most likely these jobs for the most part won’t be coming back. Our young people need to understand that for job security, you need to be in an occupation that has to be “done here” in the USA. A job that can’t be “exported” somewhere else. This is the reality that is being ignored by most people. Too, self employment will have to become more common instead of seeking someone to hire you. Consider your abilities, your skills. What service can you offer the general public? As I write this, a team of self employed people are doing up the leaves in my yard. These same people cut my grass in the summertime. Clean up in the spring. Will take care of the snow in the wintertime. Their jobs can’t be “exported”. Learn from them what you need to do!

Good thoughts Jerome. Well said. Instead of fighting to preserve jobs that are more efficiently done elsewhere, focus on the jobs that can’t be and develop our industry at home with products unique to our nation.

Jerome:

Our presidency has been outsorced to Africa.

The jobs would come back in a heartbeat, Jerome, if Government would just get their meddling hands out of the Marketplace, and quit spending and wasting our financial resources.
Government consumes 40% of our GDP. Is it any wonder there isn’t much leftover for productive capital investment? In the 1950s, we got by with Government spending of only 23%. I was there, and things were just fine with that much smaller level of Government.
And on top of that, they cost our economy much money indirectly by burdening our businesses with unnecessary regulations. My girlfriend just filled out 8 forms just to get a part time job. She isn’t even starting her own business. Imagine the hoops those poor business people have to jump through.

Jerome,
That is part of the reason 40 years ago I followed my father into welding! good pay, steady work and even if one job in welding is exported there is always another!! I have never been unemployed longer than 2 to 3 months! now I work for myself and set my own hours.

You might want to come out from under that rock your under.

The reason Reagan and Carter got us out of the depression faster is they refused to allow more money printing, bailouts or economic aid to corporations. They hastened the depressions in a way, but they also made it last a lot less longer than it is going to last today. Look to Japan, it has taken them over 10 years to recover and they all the same crap they are doing today.

As for jobs, I run a business and I don’t hire because I don’t have customers. As Ayn Rand said – don’t create a product for customers, I create a product because I have customers. Right now I don’t have customers and most of your job figures are government jobs, not private sector. If REAL unemployment was reported, it would be somewhere around 17% more in a lot of states.

Actually, I think the unemployment rate is much higher than 17%. The percentage rate only accounts for the number of people who looked for work in the past four weeks.

The last numbers I saw were 52% of the people are working and 48% were not. Looks more like 50% unemployment to me. The 17% that the liars try to sell us is called “new math” that doesn’t fully add up to what is really happening.

Kaynes warned that his ‘Kensian’ economics could be taken too far…which they have. Ann Rand, writing fiction, did not put those warnings in place, and strove mightily against big and intrusive government. If you pay as much attention to Kaynes’ warnings as you do to Ann Rands ‘Free Enterprise’, maybe you’ll come to see that too much of either of them can be damaging.

Peter,
Pick up a copy of “How Capitalism Saved America”. It will open your eyes.

denniso, your argument lost what little credibility it had when you described “average” neighborhoods with “oversized” homes, multi-car garages and swimming pools. You obviously haven’t been around enough to know how the average laborer lives. Try getting out of your gated-community suburb and visiting small towns and city neighborhoods. Ask some of the people there how much of their pay goes to taxes instead of on the line on their paycheck, and how much they pay somebody to file their tax returns. Ask them how much more of their budget they spend on food and fuel than they did in 2006 before the Socialists took power in Congress. You might be surprised.

Wasn’t it denniso who, within the last couple of weeks, claimed he lives in a gated community?

Does anybody remember the required reading when I was in High School, the “Tale of Two Cities” The French revolution? The lesson that should of been learned? Bring in the gulliotine, ever member of Congress, (including the President) ever member of Federal Reserve, should have a appointment with the gulliotine. Only then will we get corruption out of gov. The day will come!!!!

I’ve seen the exact same thing as Denniso has witnessed. Super Sized homes and full restaurants. Those who have money are doing good and those who have lost their jobs are sinking fast. Indeed a tale of two cities.

I missed that one Opal. From his post I figured Denniso lived in a one-room cabin and drove a tin-can Smart Car to set the example for all those who live in “over-sized houses” and drive big SUVs.

Oops, never mind.

Denniso is a Do as I say, not as I do socialist.

JJTT:

That would be pretty messy and we would then have the EPA involved. All that paperwork…

The Gallows would be as effective and much cleaner. Plus we could do several at once.

When I lived in a neighborhood with “super-sized” homes, most of the owners I knew were working for the Government.

Opal,
That wasn’t denniso, but I do remember it being said!

Old Henry,
I noticed in the paper tha that little pregnant go-kart called the smart car only gets 37 miles to the gallon!!! You got no room in it, it carries a driver and one passenger and looks like crap. now I have a hundai accent that gets 40 miles to the gallon, has room for four comfortably, five is capacity, carries a months worth of groceries and looks fairly nice!! Why the hell would anybody want one of those things???

Thanks JoeH.

I hardly live in a gated community! I once mentioned that even the rich behind their gates weren’t immune from a degraded society of violence and theft,because they and their kids can’t stay behind their gates all the time. So if we don’t all support a civil,educated and healthy society through tax money and the right policies,then even the rich are vulnerable,not to mention the rest of us.

denniso says: Maybe we trust people like Bernake because they are highly trained in the field of economics? Can they be wrong ever?

Not only wrong, denniso, they’re CROOKS! This isn’t an issue about understanding economics, its a question of ethics, and people like Bernake have none! Nice try.

denniso, the job growth has been anemic at best! We even had one month of NO GROWTH AT ALL! take off your rainbow colored sunglasses!!

WELL STATED…..ONE OF THE ERRORS OUR FOREFTHERS MADE WAS NOT TO SECURE THIS POLICY OF TERM LIMITATIONS TO ONLY A FEW; THEN GET TO HELL BACK HOME TO MAKE A LIVING….!

Right on Term limits is the answer and no czars that we cannot discipline quickly.
Keep up the helpfull comments who knows maybe finally all who discent will excersize their God given right to vote and put America in the hands of patriots and God fearing people who put country ahead of self.

James:

Our Founding Fathers had no concept of career politicians. The populace tried to get Washington to run for a third term, or even stay on permanently, but he said he was not a king. That concept stuck until the communist FDR who felt himself to be a king – much like our current communist Little Barry.

FDR was a lying, thieving, murdering, tyrannical Leader. The fact that the Liberals worship him says a lot about their character.

And would you tell us who he ‘murdered’?? The Nazis?

2400 military personnel at Pearl Harbor. Read this book to learn something, Ignoramus:
http://mises.org/books/pearl_harbor_greaves.pdf

Just like the books that say we never landed on the moon? Or the supposed science books that preach creationism? How about the books that purport to show real,live, aliens flying their saucers? Haven’t you figured out yet that supplying the title of a book pushing one provacative point of view proves absolutely nothing? How many books have given us competing conspiracies on the Kennedy assasination? Beyond all that,your rightwing web site is a fraud.

I’ll have to side with Dave H. here. “Day of Deceit” by Robert B. Stinnett (2001) completely documents FDR’s plan to force Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor. On pages 271-276 are photo copies of Lt. Commander Arthur McCollum’s plan detailing the nine steps, followed by a Summary. The book documents when and how FDR put these steps into action. The final step was to deny Japan any access to oil (it had no oil of its own). At the time Japan had invaded China and needed much oil, they pulled out of China and started to prepare their attack on Pearl Harbor. Thirty-six top FDR adminstrative officials were cleared to have access to Japan’s military movements, but not Admiral Kimmel, at Pearl. Our secretservice had broken Japan’s code and knew precisely every move their fleet made on the way to Pearl, except Kimmel. It tookj Stinnett 18 years using FOIA, to write this book. I suggest everyone should read it.

You are correct Wandamurline although those exemptions include both parties and John Boehner.

Wanda:

I saw an article on the internet this morning about that. I never watch “60 Minutes” so I did not actually see it.

I thought that under Newt in 1993 they passed a bill that required members of Congress to be held to account by the laws they write for their employers.

Yes, that is so. And how long did it take Ms. Pelosi et al. to revoke what remained of those rules? As I recall, the change was written before she was sworn in as Speaker and rubber-stamped within hours afterward.

I read that same article, Old Henry, and was appalled that what is illegal for us is not illegal for the elite.

Guess that’s how Cheny got away with shooting his friend during a hunting expedition.

Guess this is how obama gets away with having a fake certificate of live birth and a stolen SSN that doesn’t pass eVerify. You and I would be cooling our jets in prison if we tried that.

Guess that’s how obama gets away with having used three different names, that we know of, in his lifetime.

Guess that’s how bushboy got away with the insider trading he was involved in. I looked it up and found that info. Here’s a whole page of his insider trading dirty deeds.

http://www.google.com/search?q=george+bush+insider+trading&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

That is why it is getting harder to endorse either in the two party system. They are both up to their necks in excrements.

eddie,
If you are including nobummer in that post, then I congradulate you for opening your eyes a little!!!

Raymond, maybe we can get the Queen Mum to foreclose.

Move the Capital to Chi Ka Go. That way no one would think twice about the illegalities…