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Earthquakes, Hurricane Irene And Evolution

August 30, 2011 by  

Earthquakes, Hurricane Irene And Evolution

If you like excitement, it doesn’t get any better than this past week in Washington, D.C. — an earthquake and a hurricane in the space of five days. We already had our hands full with a manmade disaster known as the Federal government.

Though both of these natural disasters were highly unusual for the nation’s capital, the truth is D.C. and most of Maryland and Northern Virginia escaped two bullets. The earthquake did very little damage, and Hurricane Irene could have been much worse. We had a lot of rain and winds in the 25-mph range in our area; but, overall, we were lucky compared to what happened to the Outer Banks in North Carolina, New York City, Long Island and much of the Northeast.

What amazed me was how closely scientists and weather experts were able to track Hurricane Irene with almost pinpoint accuracy. People who experienced the Great New England Hurricane of 1938 could not have imagined sitting in their living rooms and watching a minute-by-minute update on the hurricane’s path for days on end. (Remember, only Joe Biden thinks television existed when FDR was President.)

As impressed as I was with how much scientists now know about hurricanes and how far we’ve come technologically (e.g., being able to able watch natural disasters unfold in minute detail on television), I also thought about how helpless we are when it comes to natural disasters.

What will we do when a magnitude 8.0 earthquake rocks Manhattan or a Category 5 hurricane hits the Big Apple head on? Such a disaster would bring the U.S. to its knees for months, and the economic effects would be felt for years. According to scientists, such major disasters will occur. It’s only a matter of when.

Hurricane Irene also made me think about the evolution question again. The feedback on my last article Is Evolution a Crazy Idea? was the kind of thing that makes writing a fulfilling occupation. I was expecting a lot of nasty comments; but, with the exception of a few out-of-hand dismissals of my irrational thought processes, the feedback was surprisingly civil.

A number of comments were so good that they could have been mistaken for articles in a major publication. Clearly, there was a lot of deep thought put into them. I bring this up because there’s a connection between my evolution article and last week’s earthquake and hurricane. They all relate to the question of whether there is a Conscious Universal Power Source at the controls or whether everything that happens here on Earth is random.

Those who believe in a random Universe really believe in what I would call “atheistic predestination.” That would mean that the so-called Big Bang — the massive explosion from whence evolved today’s known Universe — somehow happened without the aid of a Supreme Power.

If there was, and is, no Supreme Power in the Universe, everything that has been, is or will be said and done throughout the eons of time was precisely determined approximately 14 billion years ago by the nature of the Big Bang. At the first instant of that unfathomable explosion, every atom was sent flying on an eternal voyage that was predetermined by the intricacies of the explosion itself.

If there is no Supreme Power to intervene, then nothing can be changed by anybody or anything. Every detail of every event has already been set on an unalterable course. This is the ultimate fatalistic view of the Universe. There is no one in control and there is no purpose to life.

Thus, every aspect of last week’s earthquake and hurricane was predetermined by the Big Bang. Ditto with evolution. I get it. But logic always forces an intellectually honest person to get back to that annoying little question that refuses to go away: What caused the Big Bang? Maybe I’m too simplistically logical, but my mind cannot process the idea of a consequence without a preceding action.

Some readers argued that the first-cause argument doesn’t fly because it leads to the question of what caused the first cause. I see this unanswerable question as evidence of a Supreme Being — a Conscious Universal Power Source that has always existed and will continue to exist throughout eternity. How can infinity be explained away simply by saying that everything is random?

Did this Power Source intervene and cause last week’s earthquake or hurricane to occur? I have no idea. Though millions of people would never admit it, neither does anyone else. As I said earlier, it’s amazing what scientists know about earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters. But, even with their vast knowledge of how these events occur, not one scientist has any idea as to why they occur.

For example, science can explain how gravity works, but it cannot explain why it works the way it does. We know that gravity makes the planets, stars, galaxies and other cosmic bodies act on each other in certain predictable ways, but this does nothing to explain how the principle of gravity came into being.

You can offer endless scientific explanations for a natural disaster like a hurricane — high-pressure systems, low-pressure systems, unusually warm ocean water, etc. — but eventually you get to what I call the “Why Wall?” Why do these phenomena occur?

It’s kind of like Jim Carrey in the movie “The Truman Show.” At some point in time, Truman managed to reach a wall with a door in it. After pondering whether to venture out of his capsule, he finally opened the door and stepped into the real world.

Could it be that we simply haven’t found the door that leads to the real world, so we continue to live in a secular humanistic world where we are more comfortable explaining away everything as “random?”

–Robert Ringer

Robert Ringer

is a New York Times #1 bestselling author and host of the highly acclaimed Liberty Education Interview Series, which features interviews with top political, economic, and social leaders. He has appeared on Fox News, Fox Business, The Tonight Show, Today, The Dennis Miller Show, Good Morning America, The Lars Larson Show, ABC Nightline, and The Charlie Rose Show, and has been the subject of feature articles in such major publications as Time, People, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Barron's, and The New York Times. To sign up for his one-of-a-kind, pro-liberty e-letter, A Voice of Sanity, Click Here.

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  • DaveH
  • Richard

    To whom much is given much is required. Much has been given to us and much is required too.

    • Jeep

      Absolutely Richard…like requiring the govt to follow the Constitution and requiring illegal aliens to follow the law. How about requiring the president to get authorization before committing troops to bomb another country for six months…should we expect that requirment to be followed? And, since we have been given so much, should we not be required to leave a viable economy that is free of debt to our chlidren? I certainly agree that to whom much is given, much is required.

      • bob wire

        “and requiring illegal aliens to follow the law.”

        just the illegal ones?

      • Jeep

        Whatever, Bob Wire, if you cannot fathom what it means to be an American, perhaps you should spend a little more time in contemplation. My meaning was clear, even if I “failed” to mention all the wrongs of this current administration. Normal people have no problem looking at a few examples with the understanding that there is a deeper concern. However, flat, single-sided lefties are always one-dimensional in their approach to difficult analogies and situations. Your miopic view is duly noted and cataloged.

      • bob wire

        Oh! I see ~ Your are more American then I am so you can say stupid things and it’s okay.

        I Got it! but ~ how did you get to be more American then me?

        Exactly how does that work? ~ Let’s see, ~I was born into an American WWII GI family, I was a boy scout, eagle scout, I pay taxes ~ all of them since I was 14 some that 49 years of taxes , ~2 years in the Army Infantry, 1 drawing combat pay. Three bronze stars, GI bill privileges and education, Raised and supported 4 four little Americans that now pay taxes and are making more little Americans that will pay taxes. I employ 5 Americans who pays taxes . I serve America and her interest. I vote for Americans. I live in America.

        So just how am I less American then you Jeep?

        Let’s face it, you say things without thinking them completely through.

      • DaveH

        The President already is required to get authorization, but being the dictator that he is, he ignores the law.

      • Al Sieber

        That seems to be his M.O..

      • Thinking About

        Does anyone stop and remember citizens are not obeying the laws when they hire workers without papers? Why did Perry ask for 350 million to close the borders when he is not going after the illegal employers. If jobs was not given the population coming in illegally would beuch lower. You hire them and they shall come.

      • Al Sieber

        They’re coming all right, a army of 350,000 coming to take back the S.W.

  • Rayma Dorsa

    As I see it 9/11 was a warning from God..He lifted the hedge of protection and no one repented so 7 years later the stockmarket fell at the very place George Washington made his ignaguaral speech when he became president the church he went into to “commit” the United States to God was there at ground level…so it is fitting that is the first place God would send his wake up call..

  • Linda

    FYI, in defense of Joe Biden, the first commercially made electronic television sets with cathode ray tubes were manufactured by Telefunken in Germany in 1934,followed by other makers in France (1936),[105] Britain (1936),and America (1938). An estimated 19,000 electronic television sets were manufactured in Britain, and about 1,600 in Germany, before World War II. About 7,000–8,000 electronic sets were made in the U.S. before the War Production Board halted manufacture in April 1942, production resuming in August 1945, and skyrocked after the war. I remember having our first TV in 1947.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Lefties/Liberals/Socialists are you aware that before the mass production of televisions, it was the evil rich who could only afford to purchase them and eventually everyone else could have them.

      • Thinking About

        So what is your point. Statement was made tv was not available during FDR and post has determined when tv was started which was before FDR time. You just have to throw out evil right wing statements without cause.

  • Roland

    Don’t forget entropy. The Biblical worldview posits a fallen world, expressed in the physical as well as moral spheres. Decay. Also, What Richard just said above. A British biologist was interview for TV in the 50′s, and was asked why he thought the public had embraced the theory of evolution so rapidly as fact. He said, “Why, it means they can do whatever they want!”

  • Zed

    Um, excuse me but television DID exist when FDR was president. Mechanical television was first demonstrated in 1923 and broadcasts began in 1928.

  • http://garlitzbill@yahoo.com bill garlitz

    Sliding Plates cause Earth Quakes.,Wind Direction colide and merge,along with water temperature, current’s,cause Hurricanes..Working 40 hours a weak,allowes survival for middle class.and very little change in Washington, Bickering, obstruction and partisonship produces little results..Mitch McConnell refuses to accept a Black President.George Bush and Ronald Regan Talk to God for Advice.Rich get Picher selling jobs to China..Middle Class,can’t afford Gas or Morgages.Kissingers Buildeburg Group Keep Getting Rich.Farmers bought out by Big Corperation’s..Obama,Saves the auto Industry and looks for Middle Class Jobs..Maby 2012 will be better.

    • eddie47d

      I had to chuckle when Ringer said “that scientists don’t know where earthquakes or hurricanes come from”. So thanks bill for bringing that up and we are to take these articles seriously?

      • DaveH

        Eddie, you are paraphrasing Robert Ringer. You don’t put quotes around paraphrases. Here is exactly what Robert said:
        “Did this Power Source intervene and cause last week’s earthquake or hurricane to occur? I have no idea. Though millions of people would never admit it, neither does anyone else. As I said earlier, it’s amazing what scientists know about earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters. But, even with their vast knowledge of how these events occur, not one scientist has any idea as to why they occur.”

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        eddie47d

        Earthquakes or hurricanes? Where did they come from? He better stop smoking that stuff and he should start smoking Coal Miner’s Golds.Ringer,we will pray for you.Ha ha ha

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        eddie47d

        A 10 percent drop in water vapor ten miles above Earth’s surface has had a big impact … Get the latest science news with our free email newsletters, updated daily …

        http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100131145840.htm

      • Al Sieber

        c. miner, thanks for the link.

      • eddie47d

        Thanks coal miner for the link. The global warming mystery continues as it should. Both sides have “proof” and dismisses the other sides point of view. A good scientist will look at all angles instead of ignoring the facts from opposing scientists. I have seen absolute “proof” from both sides of science and they are all stubborn as mules in insisting they are right.

      • Al Sieber

        It’s solar flares eddie.

      • Jay

        Obviously you take the articles at PL seriously eddie, in fact, you take them very seriously. As you are always reading, and responding to them. Also, you’re always here, hovering, like parasitic vulture!

    • DaveH

      Obama certainly did not save the auto industry. He saved special interests within the auto industry (Unions mostly), and he screwed others (bondholders, taxpayers, Ford).

      • Thinking About

        Yea yea yea waa was was Obama will never get credit for any results of his actions and there are WMD in Iraq. Results are auto industry is doing well and revenues are being received from those workers but war based on lies has cost this nation lots in money and lives. Which had a positive outcome?

  • Eric

    The one thing that disallows me to believe in anything but God, and I have thought a lot about it, is consistency. Take your example of the huricane and the earthquake. Every time those forces which make up each of those occurances come together you will get the same result. Like gravity, if one throws something up in the air it will fall to the ground. Everytime. It’s the same with our government. Throughout history, whenever the political elite try to control everything and everyone, and spend more than they take in by promising everything TO everyone just for reelection, the country will fall. Everytime. I pray that we can stop the inevitable.

  • chuckb

    raggs, you say it right, barry was gearing up for the big crisis and it didn’t happen. the media was sitting it up for him. he could see a light at the end of the “funnel”, instead he got nothing but rain in the face.

    • Raggs

      Exactly!!! That is why ALL media stations ran the rain storm 24-7 for two weeks!!! Even the media was hoping for massive damage and lose of life in order for oblama to fly in ( walk on water ) and save the world…

      • Karolyn

        Sick thinking! It happens with ANY disaster-in-making, no matter who the President or where in the world it is happening.

      • eddie47d

        Now Obama is running the weather channel. The plot thickens!!

      • Raggs

        Are you telling me that oblama would not use a crisis as a political gain??? WOW!!!!

      • eddie47d

        No but you would use nonsense to score points in the political process.

      • Thinking About

        Raggs you are probably right Obama sent in a request and was granted an earthquake and hurricane to improve his political standing. Now this sounds like intelligent. Must have been Perry prayer gathering and results was misguided and Obama will get the gain and not Perry.

  • Richard

    Also look at DNA, it’s software in a helix strand form. Is sofware randomly produced? NO The reason man’s “sience” made up the theory is to replace God, if there is no God, we are in the position of little gods or the governments as a collective god. There is reason for that.
    I call it the who’s your daddy thing. lol Is it a supreme God, or a bunch of greedy selfish human beings that call the shots here for now?

  • Raggs

    oblama needed the hurricane and the earth quake as a crisis in order to blame the poor economy on something or someone other than himself.

    • eddie47d

      That must be it Raggs. What else could it be?

      • Jeep

        Didn’t your hero Rahm say something like, “Never let a good crisis go to waste”? I think Raggs was just speculating based on a proven track record.

  • chris batton

    I think that these were for shore natural disasters caused by nature enabled by god I still believe that haarp could be a weather manipulating machine used for causing horrific disasters so crows in Washington and abroad can press the envelop to ofcourse set laws into play that would destroy our liberty but its still a open debate in my mind atleast I like these emails to a certain extent but some of these are far too fear mongering without any sense of hope that people can get out of this I’m in touch with reality as much as my feet are with the ground but when somebody talks most of only bad things to come with no solution there only building the fear fire and might make one mad enough to just say screw it and in modern day society our culture is filled with that all too well and is one of the key things that’s making it drown I still respect u and think your a great knowledge spreader and patriot but it would be nice to see a little more hope and will for the victory of freedom to win the day no matter how dim the present or the status cwo may seem

    • Karolyn

      Amen, Chris! There needs to be more attention paid to what good there is and to spreading the opposite of hate and fear, which is LOVE!

      • Jeep

        The problem with your type of “love” Karolyn, is that you and your ilk consider spreading welfare and higher taxes the same as spreading “love”. We vehemently disagree in that spreading “love” to me is allowing you the freedom to succeed or fail. You believe that “love” means to take other people’s money and “spread the lovin’”.

      • Karolyn

        Jeep – I don’t give a rat’s patootie what the rest of my “ilk”, whatever that means, think. I am not talking about giving anybody anything, but just spreading the energy of love. Love is the opposite of fear, and it’s what we need more of! Positive energy has a higher frequency than negative. Check out “Power Vs. Force” by Dr. Hawkins.

      • Kate8

        Jeep – I agree. Satan comes in many forms and guises, and one of his favorites is to spout about “love”.

        It all depends on what your interpretation of “love” is.

      • Jeep

        You’re right on target Kate8. I am afraid that the progressive form of “love” is more welfare and less freedom for all. All the while, progressives accuse Libertarians and Conservatives of hate. Wow! It must be a twisted mind that is encased in the progressive head.

        BTW, dosen’t the OT describe Satan as being as beautiful as diamonds and rubys?

      • Kate8

        Jeep – Yes, his beauty was celebrated among all the angels.

        He was also ruler of music and the arts (he still uses them).

        And he still tells people that, if only they stop trying to follow Gods Ways and follow him instead, they will become gods unto themselves.

      • Marie1

        Jeep didn’t Jesus say “love thy neighbor” and” help one another” if you believe in the bible, I guess you probably call it socialism, of which you know nothing about.

      • Al Sieber

        Marie1, doesn’t God help those that help themselves? that’s not Socialism.

      • Kate8

        Yeshua said we should love the Lord Thy God above all else, and love thy neighbor as thyself. And then he says to do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

        He tells us to be kind and charitable to those we see who are in need.

        He doesn’t tell us to be suckers.

        “He who does not work, does not eat.”

      • professor

        Tell me Karolyn, how much does “love” cost these days?

      • Karolyn

        You are a perverted person, “professor.” I doubt that you can come anywhere neara to being a professor. Love costs nothing but being true to one’s real self.

      • eddie47d

        Love costs in every relationship. We always make demands on those we love and they make demands on us. Love can be very expensive.

    • Jeep

      Chris, do not mistake the posting of negative opinions and contrary facts for a loss of hope. In battle, one must go through a hail storm of bullets and fire back to reach the objective and win. But, that does not mean that a soldier is without hope for complete victory. The fact that many of my friends here and elsewhere are posting, quoting, arguing and complaining gives me hope and confidence in that I am not alone.

      • eddie47d

        The problem is Jeep that there is a constant barrage of fear and negativity coming from the Right. That negativity brings about a lack of will and hopelessness that our nation has failed and will collaspe. Too many of you want victory from total destruction and are willing to allow that to happen. The same scenario does play out on the Left in trying to destroy certain basic principles so that they can enact their way of doing business. I don’t think either side considers the ramifications of their actions. It’s good to battle for the benefit of our nation but not by eliminating the rights of others in the process.

      • Rick

        Eddie you are spot on and I hope some others will start thinking for them selves, keep the good work up!

      • Kate8

        You guys are funny.

        You accuse the Right of spreading fear, yet who are the ones shouting “the sky is falling!”, i.e. global warming, shortages, unsustainability, overpopulation, certain annihilation because of our use of oil, coal and anything else that makes life easier.

        Not to mention the hopless plight of the “poor”, those who are dying because they can’t afford medical “care”, forcing restrictions of everything we do lest we suffer some dire consequence.

        You guys are a joke.

      • eddie47d

        Since there are several survivalist on this site shouting that the end is near, yourself included you ought to rethink that topic. Fear wins in getting folks to listen and as I said the left and right both do it.

      • Kate8

        Again, nice try, eddie, but I was responding to your assertions of negativity coming from the Right. Which btw, is in resistance to the tyranny coming from the left.

        At least we conservatives address ACTUAL threats, in the form of power mongers and even idiots. When we challenge your camp on your treachery, you make stuff up and then accuse us of being negative.

        Most of us would feel really positive about things if we could just live our lives in peace, without some liberal do-gooder breathing down our necks trying to regulate and tax every breath.

      • eddie47d

        There is also right wing tyranny and their forces who want to dominate others. There are a few who want a religious theocracy and be able to excludes everyone else. That would hardly be free choice now would it. Some on this site are loud and proud of their hatred for Muslim Americans. Some are equally proud of wanting laws to make homosexuality a crime of punishment. Some states want to throw woman who get an abortion into prison.Now I’m not going to say one word about the left this time because you seldom if ever go after the right.

      • Dan az

        eddie
        The way I see it is that there is an opinion and a opposing opinion,Positive and negative and the result is a conclusion.Not evil but a positive.Like Karolyn says that positive will always succeed,rule of natural law.We are pounded with negative daily but the outcome will be positive if we all can come to the conclusion.Now I’m sounding like Bob Wire lol!Deep!

      • Kate8

        Wow, Dan az! Were you gone to a weekend retreat or something?

      • Dan az

        Kate
        No I think it was just gas :)

      • Jeep

        It’s funny eddie how you try to squash “hope” in one breath and tout the left wing approach to liberty in the other. Sorry, but left wing politics are completely incompatable with liberty and freedom. Granted, it can be argued that right wing politics are incompatable as well. I mean after all, by “forcing” people to be independant, with freedom to fail or succeed, that sure puts a damper on those “freedoms” the left offers…like being a slave to taxes, forced “public” education, the collective mindset, you know, all that freedom stuff.

      • Karolyn

        But, Jeep, doesn’t the religious right want to impose religion into everything? They want a person of a particular religion to be in office for one thing. That doesn’t sound so freedom-loving and American. It sounds restrictive to me.

      • Jeep

        Here’s a tip for you karolyn…read carefully. I don’t believe I have ever equated right wing with religious right wing politics. Ever. After all, “left-wing” or “right-wing” means very little. They are just titles, and as such they are starting points for discussion on the true political bent of an individual. As a Libertarian with a Conservative bend myself, I believe that a mixing of politics and religion should be tempered with a notion and understanding that the Constitution implies a freedom to worship or not to worship, as one sees fit. But, we should protect some traditions. Putting a manger in front of the state house, the Ten Commandments on the court house and saying a prayer at a high school prep rally are examples of “good” traditions. In my humble opinion. The problem of stopping these traditions is that you infringe on the rights of those who like to observe them.

        But, as I have stated often, progressive policies play well in the simple mind. Free health care, welfare for the poor, and food stamps are all “noble” sounding pursuits. However, in a truly free society these “programs” are simply not possible. Why? Because you MUST infringe on the rights of some (usually through taxes) to pay for these programs. It is odd to me that progressives who tout the mantra that we are all in this together and we should “help” our fellow man, forget that their programs are paid for by someone else. They are paid for by another American. When you received govt handouts did you ever once stop to think about where the money was coming from? Did you ever consider that every dime was taken away from someone elses children? Which leads to the final point of all of this, progressives take programs too far, true conservatives believe in helping out, but I do not think it is right or fair to allow the govt to take my income and give it to someone else.

      • Karolyn

        Jeep – I do get the concept. However, even with the programs now in existence, there are still people, even little kids, starving in this country. How would you propose our hunger problem be solved other than by the government helping? There are food banks everywhere, but they all fall short.

        When I got Food Stamps and years ago also was on a public health program in NJ, I did not think about where the money was coming from. My only thoughts were that I am an American, have worked and contributed to this country for many years, and why should I not partake of a little help. I’ve never thought about it before, but thinking back, I remember at first feeling badly and not really wanting to take “charity;” however, at the urging of others, I applied for help and was extremely grateful for what I got. Having a physical condition that required a certain amount of care, it was a relief that I was eligible for health care. I am far from a taker; however, if the help is there and is needed, why not? During both time periods, my income was very minimal, although I did work and have always been a hustler. No man has ever taken care of me.

      • Kate8

        karolyn – That mantra about the Right wanting a theocracy is wearing thin, too, just like the accusations of racism.

        No, we don’t want religion in everything. Besides, there are so many different doctrines among Christians alone, they’d never agree.

        But there are certain principles that just make society work better. The fact that they are also principles of Judao-Chritian ethics doesn’t change that fact.

        You know, things like telling the truth, standing by your word, conducting yourself ethically in business and in personal matters, going the extra mile, considering someone besides yourself, not taking things that belong to another, being faithful, loyal, responsible and dependable…respecting the sovereignty of others…

        I realize that some of these things can be woven into rules and some must be instilled at a young age. But these days, they aren’t given consideration at all, and it’s become an every-man-for-himself world. And if it’s too tough to steal other people’s stuff, just get the government to do it for you.

        It was said that freedom only works with a moral and ethical people.

        Nuff said.

  • AJ

    Quote,”They all relate to the question of whether there is a Conscious Universal Power Source at the controls or whether everything that happens here on Earth is random.” That’s a great question as to who’s behind these weather conditions. My answer would be there is competing forces. Our Creator and the NWO playing their HAARP.

  • Jeffer

    We tend to talk about what is “religious” vs “scientific”. We tend to think about this latter idea as “fact” (absolute). Science and the scientific method, however, are based on perception. The idea that what we perceive is what “IS” or “all there is” has no bases as fact. The nature of our existence is likely very different than we think it is (perceive it to be). My evidence for this is that I have seen the “laws” of this world (existence) suspended in answer to prayer. Someone is “listening”.

    • Karolyn

      Those prayers are energy, which causes change. “Thoughts are things.” Everything is energy. If people thought more about perception, there would be a lot more harmony in this world. Everyone’s beliefs come from their perceptions, and we all do not preceive the same. The African living in Nigeria does not see things the same as the American living in Nebraska!

      • Jeffer

        Hi Karolyn, Thank you for taking the time to reply. Although I have no fundamental disagreement with you, I think a debate about how energy and matter work is outside of our ability and unfruitful. I am getting to be old now and over the years have acquired, on occasion, help. The “energy” that helped me identified himself as a person and knew my name. That there are absolute truths should be self-evident. If it were not so, there could be no stability, and we are not. But we ARE. And there is stability above us, and he IS. This is my experience. My point is that there is no need for us to debate things about which we have so little knowledge. We can go directly to the source and learn truth, as much as we can stand in our present condition.

      • eddie47d

        Isn’t that the truth Karolyn. Nigeria has 2 million Lutherans and they are slowly losing their influence because Muslims are pushing into “their” territory. I’m sure they ask themselves many times “where is God”. Ethiopia also has 3 million Lutherans and Somalia refugees are pouring into their country.Is this God’s plan in testing their Faith or only an unfortunate natural occurrence?

      • professor

        Obviously!

        How long did it take you to come up with the fact that Nigerians think differently than Americans…..

      • Altaica

        And boy are things seen in a different light here in Nebraska. Not wrong, just different. I do like it here even if some people get a little fanatical about their football.

    • Rusticus

      You are deluding yourself.

  • Rexford

    Interesting analogy. My view point is that ” Katrina” was more a man made disaster with a lot of help from from a lot of unsavory charactors.
    Irene is part of nature. We are only 0.01 percent of the earths equation. We are not the creator nor do we have the power to change that.
    We are as far as I can figure out are a part of the whole. We are not the whole and the earth being a part of us. Ego has caused us to think we are more than we are but we are indeed unique. Figuring that one out is lots of fun.
    Al Gore put asside. We humans have a job to do while we are on this planet. Do it and move on. We are Born, We die and – is what ever it is we are supposed to accomplish while we are visiting this planet.
    Interesting no?

    • 45caliber

      When you consider the Earth and all in it along side of man, we are little more than ants building our ant hills and believing we are god rather than God running things.

  • JC Thomas

    Just a heads up for all those who think that God is too tolerant with his creation or slack in dealing out the wrath that we all so rightly deserve. If what the Bible asserts is true then absolutely no one “gets away” with anything because in the end, each one of us will pass away and then receive Gods judgement. Each of us has an inescapable appointment with death and this should be a sobering reminder about who is actually in control! Food for thought.

    • American Conserative

      GOD is NOT tolerant! He allows. GOD gave the Earth to man (male/female) to have dominion over. The moment Adam bite into the fruit which GOD forbid, he lost dominion over the Earth and turned it over to the god of this world – Satan. GOD allows Satan to rule this Earth and evil abounds because Satan comes to destroy through any means available. GOD has provided a way of escape to everyone who believes the record GOD gave of his SON:Jesus the Christ and repents and confesses his/her sin and ask GOD for forgiveness. Male/female is GOD’s creation; but, not all are GOD’s children. GOD’s children are those whose name is written in GOD the SON’s book of Life. Natural disasters are determined upon the Earth and will grow in intensity as with a woman’s labor pains during child birth. Male/female hearts fail them for looking after those things that are comming upon the Earth. This means their resolve as well as the physical heart failing. As GOD at the time appointed sent CHRIST JESUS, GOD the SON into the world to save the world has appointed a time to judge the world by JESUS CHRIST the Righeous and as we see the day approaching – what kind of person/people should we be?. Even so come LORD JESUS!!!

      • Karolyn

        We are ALL sons of God. We are ALL ONE with everything. Everything is energy! It’s all really an illusion. How can the Bible be any more right than any other religion’s claims? It’s all in the perspective of the viewer. As Altaica posted on another discussion, her religion is 60,000 years old. Christianity is a lot younger than that! How can you say yours is right and hers is wrong?

      • Average Joe

        The truth of the matter is quite simple:

        Religion…..like beauty…is in the eye of the beholder.

        I saw a film documentary a few years ago that offered some very thought provoking questions concerning the story of Jesus. The film is called: “Did Jesus Die?”. It offered up three different scenarios concerning the life and death of Jesus. If you can find a copy of it, I strongly urge everyone to see it as it is very thought provoking and may change the way that you think…I know that it changed my thought processes in a big way concerning the Bibilcal version of events ( it did not dispute the Bible version, but looked at the story from different perspectives). I just found it free online and am posting the link:

        http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/did-jesus-die/

        Enjoy

        In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
        Douglas Adams

        The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
        Robert A. Heinlein

      • Average Joe

        BTW, scenario 3# seems to be the most plausible to me.

      • Karolyn

        “Religion…..like beauty…is in the eye of the beholder.” – No truer words have been said, Joe!

      • Kate8

        It would seem that religion (all of them) was created by man to keep humanity in a state of deception and/or confusion.

        Beliefs have a way of impeding our quest for TRUTH.

      • bob wire

        Religion is academic and only relevant to the Divine in showing the way to knowledge, closing the gestalt “making whole”. There is many other ways to obtain this knowledge as nature it’s self is an excellent teacher to receptive students with an open inquiring mind.

        Christianity has made Jesus it’s focus and for good reason, the history accounting affords us a large body of his work. He was but one of several later teachers inspired by the Divine that delivered the same message again and again.

        It is religion that is responsible for the variations in the message and not the teachers.

        What is the overriding message?

        Love your enemies as yourself is perhaps the most ignored and most difficult to comply with.

        If you can clear that bar, the rest of the “message” is a snap.

        We fail this commandment miserably absorbed in self ego and vanity.

        So then we must learn “Humility” ~ we don’t have much of that either.

        Humility or being humble is greatly misunderstood and it requires great strength to be “not proud”. It goes against man nature to be humble. Allow me to ask you, if you were God, the creator of all things, what is the need for pride? If you are a creation of the Divine, what is the need for pride? ~ ? There is no need for pride, Grateful perhaps but pride is unnecessary. Pride and ego are the two side of the same coin.

        It’s a full time “life study” requiring commitment, perseverance and mental discipline. It’s impossible to just be a Christian, you practice to be one and we all fall short everyday. (some more then others)

        a Buddhist or Hindu has much the same journey inward and required the same dedication.

        But the search is inward, don’t waste time looking outside yourself.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Karolyn and Average Joe

        How the universe bagan.
        According to the theory, for the first thousand … no gravity waves should exist from before the time the universe … greater than 1 TeV would give this theory weight.

        http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/early-universe-1-d-line-vanishing-dimensions-theory-1604

      • Average Joe

        coal miner,

        “According to the theory”

        Therein lies the flaw in your post “theory”…is just that…it isn’t proven….and therefore has no validity or basis…. in “FACT”. Remember….there used to be a theory that the world is flat….how did that work out?

    • Rusticus

      Fortunately for all of us, the bible is simply a bunch of stories put together by a bunch of middle eastern mystics who had been out in the sun too long. There may be a few bits of historical fact but mainly it’s crap.

      This is indeed fortunate because the god described in the old testament is a narcissistic genocidal psychopath. The philosophy in the new testament is much more rational and loving which is why it is rejected by right wing fundamentalist Xtians in favor of the psychopathology of the old testament.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Rusticus
        No part of the Bible is loving;the old and new testament are both astrological myths and their stories are based on brutality,slavery and down right lies.

        Aug 12, 2011 … If Adam is mythical, then the Bible is incorrect, not inerrant. … characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, … of his time, and that extensive biographical material would be available. …
        http://freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/63-acharya-s/572-adam-and-eve-a-myth.htm

      • Kate8

        coal – That presents one take on the similarities in creation stories of different cultures but, by no means, the only one.

        “Planet X and the End of the Age” is a very scholarly, well researched and thought out treatise on the roots of these stories, going into the various cultural “spins” placed on them.

        They are similar because they record the story of creation in symbolic form, per their own understanding. When they speak of gods and goddesses who are chopped up and made into varying parts of the cosmos, the understanding was not meant to be literal. It was to create a picture, in “right brain” symbology, if you will…meant to demonstrate the forces at work.

        Many will use cultural spins to discredit this idea or that, but that simply demonstrates their complete lack of understanding.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Rusticus

        Apr 13, 2009 … It is recorded that Zeus is both the father and great-great- great grandfather of …. I have read much on Egyptian and Persian mythology, yet I don’t recall … different between Krishna and Jesus Christ than there are similarities. …
        http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/ -

    • Marie1

      The Bible was written by “men” not a God

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Marie1

        (Kramer, Sumerian Mythology 58). Questions: 1. Compare / contrast this story of water and fertility with the story of Adam and Eve. In what ways is Eve like …
        http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/SumerianMyth.htm -

  • Tom

    Random does not mean arbitrary.

    Though an event may APPEAR random at the level at which we live and from where we observe, the active rules at the quantum level are rigidly defined by the laws of nature. So, who or what created the laws of nature? I believe your guess is as good as mine but then I also believe that my guess is as good as yours.

    There is a reality and there is just one version of reality. Reality is what it is. A truth is what it is. Each truth is a part of the whole truth. The sum of all truths is equal to the one reality.

    When we or our institutions–including our governments–try to cause something to happen that is in conflict with those laws of nature that we call the laws of physics we then get what the kleptoparasites in Washington call “The law of unintended negative consequences.”

    A socialistic government is in conflict with those laws of physics that prevent us having processes and systems that can operate with the properties and characteristics of a perpetual motion machine.

    Be concerned about offending Mother Nature but remain aware that when you mess with Father Time you can get your clock stopped!

    • BOB

      If there is no GOD and evolution came about by the big bang, then who created the atoms etc. necessary to create the big bang??

      • Karolyn

        There is no “who.” There is energy and universal intelligence.

      • bob wire

        Making illusions of a deity is less whom and more “what”

        When you finally shed your human form the view becomes much clearer.

        Send us a post card Bob.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Where did the energy and universal intelligence come from?

      • bob wire

        The Divine from the void. Next question.

      • Kate8

        bw – Cleared that one right up, didn’tcha?

      • Altaica

        Conservation of Energy Law: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed. Therefore Energy must have always existed and will always exist. Everything has energy in some form, we are all parts of the same system.

        This very simple fact, if more people looked at it, I think could help create a lot of understanding. The Great Spirit/ Divine Creative Energy/ Divine Spark. For me this is the answer. Energy was given to all things, the shared energy from the Energy. Energy follows patterns, manifests in different forms and ways, and exists everywhere.

        I think the answer to the God/ or any deity’s existence is staring all of us right in the face in a very simple, provable scientific law. I think the Great Spirit/ The Creator is the Energy. By the Energy transforming itself over billions of years, and sharing of itself, all of our wonderful varied lives are possible.

        Why are there so many paths and variants? Because we all do not experience things the same. I believe when I die my body will be transformed and returned to the soil and my energy will return to the creator and if I choose to want to experience more things I will return with a new body.

        Just my view, it is up to each and everyone to choose their own path.

      • American Conserative

        Big Bang – GOD spoke, let there be…

      • eddie47d

        Some question the Big Bang and some question God and they are fair questions. Who created God. Who were his “parents”? Where did he come from? We will never know the answer and there will be far more wrong answers than right answers no matter how hard we try.

      • bob wire

        The Divine came from the void before time and always was and always will be Eddie.

    • 45caliber

      Tom:

      But too many people want to dismiss any evidence that doesn’t fit their own little theory of what is and what is not.

    • Altaica

      All I know is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed. So it stands to reason that energy has always been and always will be.

  • Henry Ledbetter

    I would recommend reading Romans 1:18 and then go to 2 Chronicles 7:13. Please read and study the context in light of what is happening in the nation and our world. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground that God does not know about it and He knows every hair on every head, regardless of whether you believe in Him or not. The evidence of a world wide flood is all around us but most have a hard. time accepting the fact that a loving God would kill the entire world population except for eight people. He knew that when sin is conceived it brings forth death and the sin was so ingrained in them that they would not repent. How has things gone since we kicked kicked God out??? Amsterdam was never a Christian nation but america was. “To whom much is given, then much is due.”

    • bob wire

      Well, not really Henry. It is true America was originally settled predominantly by Puritan and Puritan influence but by 1776 many other people from many nations had arrived. Some were fleeing religious persecution, some from the law, some had simply out worn their welcome elsewhere. The only common thread was the search for a new life but installing Christianity held no clear mandate.

      It is true that the church house was considered the center of social life at this point in history as the printed word was exciting news to all. And it was from these various congregations of churches where our leaders most often rose from. Any person that aspired to politics needed votes and recondition. The church house afford this in numbers large enough to make it happen. So in that sense, Yes! we are a Christan nation conceived in Christian values as elected leaders accepted political positions.

      But in drafting the Constitution, references to God name was used in generic terms.

      As I understand it, America is one of the few nations without a national religion.

      Today, it seems clear that many feel the need to proclaim Christianity and reintroduce it into political discourse. Suggesting we have become Godless and lost our way.

      If we might consider how the last openly and outspoken Christian president was treated while the halls of government became dysfunctional in the process,how political discourse failed to bear quality harvest, how Americans continued to bath in decadence while claiming to be Christians.

      I simply don’t see Christianity imposed into government as a silver bullet correct’all then or now.

      These self proclaimed Christians that I see running for office today are barely worth the shot to put them down as they make a Circus Act out of their Christianity. I find it reprehensible and disgusting to commerce in the name of the All Mighty. That’s never been what the life of Christ was about.

      If you know of a good Christian, worthy your support and willing to serve the people, run them for office. But don’t run on the coattails of Christ and expect my vote.

      America is filled today with too many different races, creeds and persuasions to attempt to shovel Christ down their throats.

      We long since grown past the point where that might be possible and be sustained for any length of time without trouble in the streets.

      • Dan az

        Bob
        one word DEEP!

      • Average Joe

        That’s 3 words and a name :)

      • Dan az

        :)

      • Altaica

        Kind of makes me think of a bumper sticker I saw on a car, “The last time people mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.”

  • Karolyn

    The energy put out by the collective consciousness has more to do with the weather and natural disasters than you think. The more negative energy is put out, the worse the resulting circumstances. Everything is connected. Everything IS energy. That’s why we never die. It’s all very logical.

    • Michael J.

      Karolyn,
      Wow, those Japanese folks sure must have a lot of negative energy.

      Nah, can’t be true, otherwise my mother in law would be six feet under.

      • Jeep

        You know, China tops the list of deadliest natural disasters in the last hundred years. Obviously they have lots of negative waves! Heck, the Indonesian tsunami comes in only at number six with about 210,000 dead. Maybe the negative waves there were not so bad…

      • Altaica

        Maybe it’s Karma kicking in for taking over Tibet and kicking the Tibetan Buddhists out of their land?

  • Iris

    On an individual basis, I can understand that bad outcomes occur to anyone who does stupid stuff, obviously asking for it! On the other hand when an entire community does stupid stuff, I am forever unsurprised when an act of God gives them a slap across the face.

    Are we surprised that Florida got off scott free? They have been turning conservative for awhile. Isn’t it a little odd that the most liberal of the eastern seaboard got whacked so unexpectedly? Vermont!

    JUST COINCIDENCE.

    Amen.

    • eddie47d

      Is that why all those fires and drought have hit Texas because they are so Conservative and Christian? or those tornadoes hit Alabama because that Christian state deserved it? Your analogy sucks as bad as mine if you can comprehend the drift.

  • dan

    …sometimes a natural disaster is just a natural disaster . I keep waiting for that giant Monty Python foot to stomp DC, but I suspect
    that if we all got what we deserved…

  • Al Sieber

    Good article Mr. Ringer, I don’t believe everything on earth is random, I think Haarp had something to do with it.

    • Dan az

      Hey Al
      Where ever there is an action there is always a counter reaction.My sentiments exactly.Did you watch that movie that kate posted?Outstanding!

      • Al Sieber

        How are you Dan? yes I did, good link by Kate.

      • Dan az

        Hey Al
        HOT!

      • Al Sieber

        I’d probably be wearing a overcoat over there.

  • http://donthaveone Beberoni

    I kind of see it that way also Alex, except that I believe that those who believe are held by God as His children, responsible for their actions. Much like our earthly fathers would punish us when we did wrong, but they dont punish the neighbors kid, because they are not theirs. In accepting Jesus Christ as our saviour, we are now held accountable for our actions, whereas those in the darkness are exactly that, in the darkness without God’s light. And people have this misconception that God smacks us down with punishment. Really? I remember growing up, that my dad punished me for doing wrong, and he did it out of love to teach me the right way. I needed that discipline, and he gave it to me, and it shaped me into the person I have become. And he did it because he loved me, not to “put the smack down” on me. How much more so our Heavenly Father? As it is written, “He who hates discipline, hates his life”. Without it, were a lost mess, such as the mess in Amsterdam. But there will be a day coming when God does administer his wrath, and those who have rejected Him, will feel the burden of it. Thats just the way it is. Some may laugh now, but in the end, the laughing for them will be halted.

  • Alex

    The way I figure, if folks can blame Katrina on the sin and wickedness of Louisiana, I can blame the earthquake and hurricane on Washington wickedness. It’s like the big guy in the sky is letting them know just how he feels about the way they are driving one nation under God into the dirt.

    But I tend to refrain from stuff like that, at least until Amsterdam gets punished for its prostitution, drugs, satanism, and general moral wickedness. Until they feel the alleged wrath of God, I’ll chalk these natural disasters as exactly that. Natural.

    • Keith

      The ‘small’ differance there is Amsterdam was not founded as a religious nation based on Christian-Judo values so maybe God is not interested in warning them like He might be warning us.

      • BOB

        GOD destroyed everyone on earth except Noah and his family with a flood because of wickedness (homosexuality etc.) HE said the next time he will destroy the earth with fire because of wickedness. Ezechiel 23, verse 25 and Luke 12 verse 49. They laughed at Noah just before they drowned and they are laughing now at the possibility of destruction. GOD is still in control and HE will not be mocked. Eternal torture by fire is reserved for those who mock GOD. (Revelation 20)Why take a chance??

      • Raggs

        Correct BOB….

      • Lost in Paradise

        Now thats a good one BOB! Why take a chance? It just isn’t worth it.

      • Forrest Gump

        Mama always had a way of explaining things so I could understand them.
        And with these solar flare conveyor belts we might not need a nuclear war.

      • Michael J.

        Forrest,
        You are not a stupid man.

        Obama is apparently interested and reportedly asked NASA to send a probe to investigate the solar conveyor belt situation when someone said, can’t be done, the probe could not withstand the sun’s heat. Too which Obama replied, “how about if we go at night?”

        BTW, how’s the shrimp business?

      • Old Henry

        MichaelJ:

        LOL! Dats a goodn!

      • Dan az

        Thanks Michael I needed that!

      • Forrest Gump

        The shrimpin’ business is good, but now Lieutenant Dan got me invested in some sort of fruit company and said “now we don’t have to worry about money no more.” I said “That’s good! One less thing!”

        I don’t know what’s gonna happen, but I do know God’s in charge. Come what may, if we trust in Him we can’t go wrong. But remember what Mama said:

        “You gotta do the best with what God gives you.”

      • Al Sieber

        Michael, I believe Obama would of said that.

      • eddie47d

        Okay BOB if the earth will be destroyed by fire by the hand of God then why are some folks blaming other natural disasters as God’s work when there is no future connection.(such as flooding or earthquakes).

      • Dan az

        eddie
        This will answer all your questions.Its worth the time to watch it trust me!
        http://kacperpostawski.com/blog/2011/08/16/quickening/

      • Old Henry

        eddie:

        God is a loving and benefolent God. Did you not try to get your kids attention to correct them while growing up? How about your grandson? Do you not use consequences to guide him on the correct path?

      • TomP

        That is interesting, Eddie. It isn’t the fact that God uses natural events to judge it’s that God knows when and where they will occur. ie Elijah and the Baal prophets , He sent what looked like a lightning bolt, the long day of Joshua, He dropped stones, meteors, on the invaders heads. There are other examples in the OT. I have read one book that had a most interesting theory how these came about. “Catastrophism & the OT” by Patten. http://www.creationism.org/patten/

      • Kate8

        Dan az – If you like that one, you MUST watch this one!!

        Sorry everyone. I’m just so blown away by this. Everyone needs to know this stuff. This is truly wake-up material.

        This could make all the difference in how we approach our situation.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=OnYpMcaHCFI

      • Dan az

        Kate
        I got it saved for later and plan on watching all the rest too.I’m low on megs until the 13th so I’m keeping it for later.Thanks ;)

      • Al Sieber

        eddie, it’ll be solar flares.

      • Old Henry

        Very well said BOB, very well said.

      • DonnieB

        This was not and is not a Christian nation. You remember Thomas Jefferson. He tells everyone that your premise is not true.

        For most of man’s history on Earth, just staying alive was difficult. It has only been the last few brief years (man has been around for many 1000′s of years) that it has been anything but keeping wild animals or bugs or germs or other creepy crawlies from killing us.

        Saying it’s magic “God did it” hearkens back to a time when God caused the rain, thunder, earthquakes and all of natural disasters although most in religion today give God credit for the good stuff and mean ole sinful man caused all the bad stuff.

        I tend to agree with the author most of the time but when it comes to “God created the Universe”, asking the question of who created God, well that is sacrilegious. If there was nothing there that meant that there was no God either. Why for example doesn’t the author believe in all the ‘other gods’ that MAN said started it all. Of the 10,000 or so gods that we ‘know’ about I only believe in one less god than him.

      • Old Henry

        DonnieB::

        God had no beginning, and has no end.

        As humans we can understand something never ending, but we cannot fathom something haveing no beginning. As true believers we simply accept it as a small child.

        Due in part to the easy life we have been able to create thru technolotgy we have become arogant and think we no longer need God as we can do it on our own.

      • DonnieB

        If God has no beginning and no end then why can’t the Universe be the same without the need to have a god at all? Still I didn’t hear why all them other gods are wrong and only yours is correct.

        I do agree with a fair amount of your (and others here), political opinions. Further, I would say many atheists are liberals, I am not. Many are Socialist, tree hugging environmentalist and other Utopian wishful thinkers.

      • Kate8

        Donnie – There is only one GOD, Divine Matrix, timeless and All in All. I AM THAT I AM.

        However, there are many gods, creator gods, who are probably advanced beings capable of planetary travel. When you realize that man is now capable of genetic manipulation, it’s not much of a stretch to the idea that Earth was somehow star-seeded and that we are all products of genetic engineering.

        As for time…that is a physical construct, marked by cosmic cycles for producing linear reality. Outside of linear existence, time does not exist.

        When it comes to the Divine, our minds are not capable of formulating the right questions, so we never get the answers we seek.

        I refer you to a link posted yesterday by Carlucci. I think I scared some people off by putting a somewhat religious spin on it, but that was strictly my interpretation.

        Here it is again:

        http://atrueott.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/understanding-the-nine-veils/

        Happy hunting.

      • Dan az

        Kate
        Really good stuff another keeper!Did you check out the haarp?

      • Kate8

        Dan az – I must have missed that one. There are so many.

        Did you post it? Yesterday?

      • Dan az

        Kate
        No it was at the end of the one you posted for the nine vails on the right side at the bottom.More articles and good ones to boot.

      • Altaica

        Kate8–

        I think it is interesting you mentioned advanced beings. That same terminology is in the book I am reading. Gods, Genes and Consciousness: nonhuman intervention in human history. The book has been very interesting. Have you read similar books?

      • Kate8

        Altaica – This idea has been around forever.

        Back in the 60s or 70s, there was a book by a renouned Danish author (can’t think of his name) who wrote a book called “Chariots of the Gods”, and he posed a very credible case for the extraterrestrial roots of Earth.

        I have since read hundreds of books on the subject, and I have no doubt that the universe is an intelligent, precisely designed body, interactive and energetically connected…by numerous energy grids. Just like our own bodies are made up of many differing parts, but all connect to a “matrix” and to each other, and in constant communication, whether we are aware of it or not.

        We are infants in the universe. The more we discover, the less we reaize that we know.

      • Altaica

        I think Chariots of the Gods is by Van Dannikan. I haven’t read that one, but I do want to. I certainly do believe there are other sentient life forms besides us. I find the correlations presented in the book I have been reading very interesting.

      • http://www.motorcarsfinancial.com Brad

        Keith

        That was exactly my thought when I read Alex’s reply. One nation under GOD my friend.

      • mark

        The phrase “under God” phrase was added to the Pledge of Allegiance and also put on U.S. coins in 1954 by the Congress as part of the Cold War religious crusade against “Godless Communism.” This was pushed by the Knights of Columbus. Prior to 1954 it was not in the Pledge or on any U.S. coins for that matter. This is a fairly recent development very much linked to officials seeking national unity during the most dangerous phase of the Cold War.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Pledge_of_Allegiance

      • Altaica

        here’s the link to another document on the history of the pledge.

        http://oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm

    • Karolyn

      What’s wrong with prostitution and drugs? They should be legalized here!

      • TheRealBob

        Karolyn: Every time you post you show just how stupid and evil you are.

      • Karolyn

        In YOUR “humble” opinion, Bob. :-)

      • bob wire

        I understand the thrust of you statement Karolyn and it’s merits.

        Why protect people for themselves as it’s becomes a full time job and interferes with other peoples lives.

        Allow them to move on and be done, enjoy the harvest of their folly.

        I think the thought is, ~ they might be worth saving and the interference unavoidable either way.

        Where is the line? To do or not do?

        Your right hemisphere is shining through this morning. ☺

      • Karolyn

        bob – To try to help those who don’t want help is futile, enabling, and, at times, self-serving, as well as exhausting. Let them live the way they want.

        Just think of all he money that could be saved and made if drugs and prostitution were legalized! And not just money but lives saved.

      • http://davesnyder@peoplepc.com Nebraskadave

        Karlyn, I think you’re cool, I like you, and I’m probably one of a few thousand who like you. Don’t listen to crazies; you’re posting is well thought out!

      • Karolyn

        Thanks, nebraskadave. It’s always nice to find somebody new who agrees with me! (especially on this site!)

      • Kate8

        So, karolyn, you believe that society should be without constraints.

        While that might sound very tolerant and libertarian, it just isn’t conducive to a moral and ethical mindset.

        Actually, these things are, in essence, legal, as in they are rarely prosecuted these days. We all know that there is an agenda behind the drug wars… well, several agendas involving borders, universal ID and huge payoffs to our elected officials…but I digress.

        Anyway, we are in the state we’re in because of a move to a no-holds-barred society, where all manner of depravity is not only tolerated but elevated to moral equivalence.

        “Woe, woe, woe unto those who call good evil, and evil good…”

        But then, this is what we know to expect from the liberal mind.

      • Karolyn

        Kate – I don’t know where you get that “no holds barred” idea. I don’t know anyone who thinks that way. There has to be some regulation. As a libertarian, are you not for the legalization of drugs and prostitution? Laws will never stop either, but legalization can make them manageable – and profitable for the government as well. I know you are for less government.

      • Kate8

        karolyn – While I agree with much of the Libertarian position, I am primarily conservative.

        I do believe in less government, to be sure. But I also believe that communities should be able to establish their own ordinances regarding certain businesses which tend to attract a sleeze factor, degrading the whole community. I’m speaking of things like cat houses, tatoo parlors, gambling establishments, porn shops…

        In my town, we’ve had a moratorium on the adult media stores (you can get stuff in the back room of the video store if you want it), but the government has said that they have a right to exist, so after this year we have to allow them. I live in an older section of town, with much commercial zoning, so they will, no doubt, be coming to a location near me. Yuch.

        The point is, these are people coming from other places to impose their will and sleeze on us, changing the nature of our community. No one wants to live near them. Already, in the next town, the tattoo parlor has caused the deterioration of the area.

        It makes me sick.

        I do believe that a certain standard of decency is good for everyone, and it helps instill good values in children. It’s not healthy for them to have all this degenerate activity thrown in their faces. In today’s world, if someone wants that stuff, they can seek it out. It doesn’t need to create an eyesore that many find offensive.

      • Karolyn

        Kate – I have seen this happen over the years; and as a result many towns adopt new ordinances for those particular types of businesses, relegating them to a certain area of town.

        Theres a town near where I grew up in NJ that was known for its topless bars and bars in general. It is a blue collar town that grew up around one industry and was comprised of Polish-Americans who were very religious and moral people. I haven’t been there since I moved down here, but the last I heard that town was still a moral, middle class town with little crime despite the bars. BTW – There was no drinking in the topless joints. That’s against the law.

        I still maintain my stand behind the fact that more sexually permissive countries have less sex crime. That is a documented fact. And that’s not to say that everyone runs around screwing everyone. They just view sex with a more healthy attitude and aren’t repressed. Logically thinking, that might mean there is less repressed anger and rage, which is what rape is all about anyway. I haven’t heard any exposes about the children in France and Germany being especially delinquent or immoral. Have you? Hey, I may be wrong…. I certainly know neither I nor anyone else has all the answers.

      • eddie47d

        I’d like to see some rules/regulations to keep Wall Street from screwing us and our economy.They know all about extortion and prostitution.

      • Average Joe

        TheRealBob,
        When you make statements such as this, I have to wonder if you left ut an “O” in your name.
        Who is responsible for your life? Who is reponsible for your actions (Good, bad or indifferent)?When you die and go to meet your maker, who will answer for your sins? In all of the above questions, the answer is YOU…and nobody else. So, if we are all reponsible for ourselves, what gives you, me or anyone the right to enforce yours or our beliefs and morals on someone else? The answer of course is….we don’t have that right…period. What we do with our own bodies (so long as we don’t infringe upon anothers rights) is perfectly within our rights to do. If you, me or anyone else does not like certain activities….don’t participate in those activities…..but do not…I repeat…do not try to enforce your morals on anyone other than yourself, you don’t have that right and neither does anyone else.
        The problem as I see it is that too many people (like you) firmly believe (wrongly) that somehow it is their right and responsibility to enforce their morals and beliefs on everyone else. The key is to learn to mind your own business and let everyone else do the same…worry about your own life and family and let others do the same. I am responsible for my actions and you are responsible for yours….learn this….file it in your memory banks and refer to it often.
        So long as they do not infringe upon your rights, it is none of your business…period.

        A man sooner or later discovers that he is the master-gardener of his soul, the director of his life.
        James Allen

        The shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases.
        Carl Jung

      • mark

        Karolyn isn’t stupid or evil. She is simply posting her opinion on a subject.

      • professor

        You mean, “simple-minded!”

      • bob wire

        No Professor ! Not simple at all. But willing to make a decision to not interfere.

        Kate8 says:
        August 30, 2011 at 1:27 pm

        So, karolyn, you believe that society should be without constraints.

        and no again! That not what she suggested, ~ she is offering you the question; at what point should government interfere to protect people from themselves?

        If they be Hell bound, they make others an enabler. Prostitution is one of the oldest profession know today. ~ and people have always enjoyed altered reality in it endless forms.

        If it could have be stopped, it would have happened by now don’t you think? Laws is what makes criminals. Some makes sense and some don’t. Why have laws that do not work and you can’t enforce? If you what to control something government need only to tax it like they do everything else.

        This is what Karolyn is saying and it’s not simple minded but dead on the button.

        It is you sense of morality that prevents you from coming to the same conclusion.

        You are most willing to tax only certain “sin” for a price.

        In truth we are all whores, it’s just a question of price.

        So remove Liquor, gambling, and tobacco tax and stand before us without sin or offer the notion consideration.

      • Old Henry

        TheRealBob:

        Karolyn’s position is also Ron Paul’s position.

      • Kate8

        Old H – Good point. But I suspect it is because he knows it is an issue that should be left to the states, along with many others. He is against the Feds overstepping and intruding into state sovereignty.

        I must admit that, in today’s climate of mass deception, I am troubled by Paul’s membership in the Freemasons, making him a brother to the rest of the NWO pack.

      • RiverRobb

        Bob…

        Doesn’t it say in the bible that you can sell your daughter into servitude? That you can sell her into marriage? Isn’t that a form of prostitution? I mean someone is getting service in one way or another and they are receiving money for it, right? Seems to me that is the quintessential definition of prostitution and yet you condemn it? Just funny. And where does it say drugs are bad? I haven’t found that anywhere. Wasn’t it monks who discovered fermentation? You can bring God-given ingredients together; water, hops, barley, sugar and yeast, to create beer and other alcohol and that’s okay, but God forbids you to smoke a joint? To alter your consciousness in any other way? Seems to me like there’s a world of double standards here. Let nature work, it does so every time.

      • Kate8

        River – It actually does condemn drunkenness and drug usage.

        Where it commonly says, ‘They would not repent of their sorcery’, the proper translation for sorcery is ‘pharmakopaea’, or drug use.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Just because people can do certain misdeeds does not mean that they should. If we are a nation of INDIVIDUALS, we treat each other as such. Prostitution is a form of using and abusing and manipulating another human being to get what you want. Someone always gets shafted.
        If humans cannot control their basest behaviors, there will be laws enacted by governments to control those behaviors. Making excuses because someone does not like the laws will not stop the laws but then law breakers do not normally want to be law abiding. If we had no laws, human existance would be impossible because of human predators.

      • bob wire

        “Kate8 says:
        August 30, 2011 at 4:34 pm

        River – It actually does condemn drunkenness and drug usage.”

        I believe it condemn bearing false witness as well.

      • bob wire

        “The unmistakable miracle recorded in John 2: 1-11 is of great importance for several reasons. This miracle of Jesus turning the water into wine was Jesus’ first miracle (Jn. 2: 11). This initial miracle prepared Jesus’ disciples for the great work they were to do.”

        Yepper, I bet it did !

      • Kate8

        bw – Indeed it does.

        And your point?

        I could also suggest you rethink your accusations of the TeaParty in that context.

        Hel-lo.

      • SJvet

        Right, along with murder, armed robbery, extortion, and all other crimes. That’s not a world most people want to live in.

      • Lost in Paradise

        Well Karolyn do you have all day to read my answer? Anyway, if you need to ask it would evidently do no good to tell you, as you would not understand.

      • Thinking About

        You are a prime example of needing explanations Lost.

      • 45caliber

        Karolyn:

        I’m surprised. Considering what you have said about the problems you have had with drugs, I’d have thought you would prefer to keep others from the same fate.

      • Karolyn

        45 – No one can keep anybody from doing what they want to do. I have lost people to drugs and alcohol; and nothing anybody would have done would have changed them. Drugs and alcohol will always be used. I believe that man has gotten high ever sice he chewed that first leaf and liked how it felt. There will always be those who want to be high all the time. Maybe some day they will figure out why. Personally, I believe it’s because they are disconnected from their true selves and can’t handle life.

      • Dan az

        Karolyn
        I agree with you.

      • 45caliber

        Karolyn:

        I also agree. I think the real reason most take drugs is because they can’t handle life. But I don’t believe I should be forced via taxes to take care of them.

      • DaveH

        Well, I think there is plenty wrong with both, Karolyn, especially drug usage (including alcohol).
        But should victimless crimes be a matter of Criminalization. NO. It is not our business to protect people from themselves. Government should not be allowed to punish people for things they do to themselves. By allowing Government to become involved we have opened Pandora’s box to the Leviathan Government we have today. Of course the leaders are happy to grow Government to solve every petty fear we have. They jump at the chance to grow their power and perks at OUR expense. But, as everybody who pays attention knows, the Government isn’t very good at solving ANYTHING!
        They have used the Drugs Wars as an excuse to confiscate peoples’ property (forfeiture laws), trample our 4th Amendment rights, kill many innocent victims, and cost the taxpayers tens of billions of dollars every year. It’s been 40 long years now. Has the War been won? Of course not, and it never will be. All they’ve managed to do is to drive the price of drugs sky high so that the losers who do drugs have had to resort to crime to pay for their habits, and in the process enrich the worst segment of society — those who choose to be Drug Lords.
        It’s time to get Smart, like Portugal did 10 years ago:
        http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

      • eddie47d

        Thank you Dave H.good post.

      • Kate8

        DaveH – While I agree on principle, these activities aren’t always victimless.

        Many people are killed or maimed by people who try to navigate life in a state of drug impairment. Not to mention the snowball effect of all those near and dear who suffer immeasurably.

        Perhaps there should be guidelines for their use, and situations where they would be illegal to use. But then again, someone under the influence isn’t likely to worry about guidelines.

      • Karolyn

        Kate – The point is that you cannot legislate a psychological or mental disorder, which is what addiction is. Why shouldn’t prostitution be legal? In countries where it is legal and sex is not so taboo, there is less sex crime.

      • Kate8

        karolyn – Sorry, but I do not believe that is true.

        All I’m saying is that there are ramifications not being considered here.

        There was a time when prositution was legal, and it proved devastating to many. When it’s considered a-okay to cheat on your wife at the cat-house, marriages fall apart. Just look at the devastation wreaked on marriages now, with the rampant pornography addictions.

        I believe that legitimizing these types of businesses is just another step in the degradation of our humanity, relegating us to little more than animals who are enslaved to their lusts.

        BTW, Jay had a great article on how the Left succeeds by making everything about sex. It was a good one, and true.

        http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0026.html

      • Kate8

        And then such ideas always lead to this:

        http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=336869

        Throughout history, degrading, declining societies always begin to legitimize immorality, including the acceptance of pedophilia. Children lose value as human beings to be protected at all costs, and are left to the mercies of those who prey on them. And, this devaluation of children begins with people destroying their own offspring for their convenience.

      • Karolyn

        Prostitution, like drugs, will go on whether it is legislated against or not; and I don’t think every man would immediately run out and get a hooker if it was legalized, just like there won’t be a stampede when drugs are legalized. There are people who do and people who don’t no matter what the legal climate.

      • DaveH

        Kate,
        If a man is going to cheat on his wife, he doesn’t need a prostitute to do that. In fact, his wife would be better off if he did use a prostitute since it is more likely to result in relation-damaging feelings with a non-prostitute than with the prostitute.
        Prostitutes are more likely to get STDs treated. Non-prostitutes, who are ashamed of their sexual escapades, are much more likely to avoid detection and treatment thus passing the STD onto others.
        The crimes that are attributed to legalized prostitution — child enslavement, abuse of prostitutes, etc. occur whether prostitution is legal or not. And as far as the abuse goes, whether or not to incur that risk should be solely the choice of the prostitute, nobody else.
        Above all, it is legal for a man to have sex with a woman if no money changes hands. What’s up with that? If something is immoral, it is immoral whether money is traded or not.
        See Chapter 1:
        http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Good post Kate8. Thank you.

      • DaveH

        Kate,
        You’re talking about trespassing on the bodies and property of other people. Those acts have always been crimes, sober or not.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Dave, Karolyn believes it is acceptable behavior to be predacious and to treat another human being as a prey animal.

      • Karolyn

        Nadzieja – How do you DARE to know that I believe any such thing? You will go to any lengths to try to discredit another, including placing your perceived characteristics on them. You just don’t like me, so you will take any chance you get to find something to say. It’s really sad and makes me chuckle.

      • professor

        Karolyn sounds like she is ready to “go into business!”

      • professor

        Maybe, she is already in “business!”

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Karolyn

        I agree!

      • Altaica

        I think there is some merit in legalizing both. The biggest merit would be tax revenue. I mean alcohol is perfectly legal and causes a hell of a lot of problems, but we have it. Prohibition didn’t work so well, made more crime. So if it is legalized they make money off it. I think there needs to be some rules in place. I know a bit about how the German’s run theirs having had a friend stationed in Stuttgart for years. I’d ask her a lot of questions about stuff out there. Turns out that prostitution is a viable career there, but that they also strictly utilize protection and health screenings.

        I don’t think it will completely eliminate the crime factor in some aspects, because there is crime associated with everything. Some people will want to get around the taxes, but I know a lot of the German run facilities are actually kept to a higher hygiene and professional standard then some of our businesses. I think it really depends on how it is handled, run and the business ethics that go into it as to how things happen.

        Certainly if they were to legalize it, there would have to be a determination by state and local officials whether they want to allow it in their area. We really don’t know how it will affect things until we try it and compare numbers. I know Nevada makes a lot of money off it is, and there are the higher class “Cat houses” and then there are the ones you call and they come to your door. And the advertisers of the later have no shame either. It doesn’t matter if you’re male or female they try and give em too you. They kept handing them to me and I kept throwing them in the trash.

        Ultimately the people have the choice whether or not to indulge in an activity, legal or otherwise.

        These same policies go for drugs. IF we treat them like any other drug and regulate them and tax them like Alcohol and booze even on a trial period, as long as we keep the government from stealing the money I bet we could erase a good portion of our debt. Hell if it is an imported drug it can be taxed even more! They have tons of the confiscated drugs in their warehouses right now, just imagine how much revenue could be made. They can force people to have a license to deal and if they don’t confiscate then sell it themselves for huge profit. Hmmm.

        I don’t know how all this will work, we would have to try it and “tweak” it to see. I think marijuana would be a good place to start. It’s natural, easy to grow and everywhere. Some say it makes people less ambitious, I know some politicians and big business people that we should try it on, some people need a little less ambition to screw us over.

        I think we should try it, and all the profits should go purely to paying on the principle of our debt. I think it would make for an interesting experiment. If it proves to be worth it we could keep it. I mean, the people that want it are going to do it anyway, why not cash in on it?

    • George

      Of course ‘natural disasters’ are precisely that, viz. natural. I happen to think that they are also predetermined (as is the fact that I am writing this). That doesn’t mean that God is not speaking to us through these disasters though I hesitate to say that someone such as Pat Robertson or any other person is correct in saying that they are the result of the violation of some divine ‘no-no.’ It may be that what God is saying is that we ought to take some very wise precautions and not risk our lives and property unnecessarily (or yet again something else). I’m simply not confident in any one person having the one and only answer to that question. Of course, since I’m a Calvinist you would expect me to come down on the side of predestination.

      • Marie1

        What language is God speaking?

    • 45caliber

      Alex:

      Amsterdam seems to be listening to something. They are changing up many of their laws on drugs, etc. now.

      • Average Joe

        Actually, Amsterdam decided (by vote) not to enforce the new Dutch mandate that took away the use of certain drugs from foreigners and tourists. So, Amsterdam will continue with the same policies that have been in effect for years…the issue will be revisted in 5 years…until then, in Amsterdam…it’s business as usual.

  • DaveH

    Well, if the hurricane or the earthquake had taken out the Capitol, I might have had to rethink my religious position.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      LOL. Thats funny.

      • People’s Rights

        Mr. Ringer I don’t believe in the Liberal theory of Evolution to justify their political agenda, but I do believe in God.

        Evolution is a theory of ATHEISTS and who are WARMONGERS. People tend to get MORE violent when they don’t believe in God. – “Thou shall not kill.”

        ** End of the world can be manmade as well by using nuclear weapons or biological weapons.**

        Robert Ringer said, “You can offer endless scientific explanations for a natural disaster like a hurricane.” These days any disaster can be explain by scientific evidence and facts. Manipulating of rains, causing fire and others were enhanced during the 1940s.

        Since you’re trying to convince us it’s a natural phenomenon, you should discuss about the natural disaster and the uses of weather weapons. Fair and unbiased is how it should be reported, YOUR’RE MISSING THE MAIN ISSUES.

      • Old Henry

        Well People’s Rights, we must ask: “Who created the science”?

        I believe you are correct in that evolutionists are atheists trying to justify their non-belief. Satan has been roaming the earth since the beginning of our Earth. And satan has been infecting the hearts and minds of man to differing degrees ever since.

      • Amy

        Peoples Right says – “People tend to get MORE violent when they don’t believe in God.” How untrue is that? Most wars are faught over religion. How many people have died in the name of religion? From the Christian Crusades to the Muslim terrorist, religion and the belief in God brings out the worst in people.

      • Robert Smith

        Anyone up for another inquisition?

        Rob

      • Old Henry

        Yeah Rob, let’s play Cowboys n Muslims…

      • Bob from SoCal

        Yes Amy it must have been God that brought out the worst in Stalin, Hitler and Mao right? You can chalk up over a hundred million to their tally. So how many have been killed by Christians?

      • Christin

        Good one – Bob from SoCal.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Religious people who believe the God of the Bible do not have the time or the inclination to harm other people.
        The “isms”known as socialism, humanism,etc., that are used as substitutes for God(also better known as man made religions) are the causes of all the horrors that have been perpertrated throughout the ages. These groups also have human leaders which people follow blindly and stupidly.

      • Altaica

        Bob From SoCal:

        Here’s part of the answer. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cru1.htm

        You could also add up Numbers and is it Kings I think that also talks about the wars and numbers killed in them. I know Numbers has a lot.

        This link only details the crusades and the anti-semitism afterward. There is also the witch trials and the unknown numbers of people killed for being “heretics” typically other Christians. Recently I read about Pope Innocent III and his endorsement of a whole town of 1200 in France that the innocent and heretics were all killed, men, women and children, because they couldn’t determine who was who. What baby deserves to be slaughtered just because its parents have done something you don’t like? Such is the problem with wars. Innocents are killed along with soldiers.

        Is there really any large social group that hasn’t engaged in some form of violence?

      • Marie1

        “Thou shall not kill” that is good, so why are the republicans so much against gun control?

      • Old Henry

        And why are liberals so in favor of slaughtering the unborn inocents by chopping them into pieces as they struggle in the womb. Why are liberals so in favor of Death Panels to kill the elderly and infirm? Why are liberals so in favor of euthenasia? Why are liberals so infavor of the slaughter of Christians by the godless Muslims?

      • Currahee

        “Thou Shall not kill.” Is not the actual translation of the original texts. It is actually “Thou shall not committ murder.” The Bible is very clear about the diference. Jesus just before his crucifiction told his diciples, “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

        37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

        38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.”(Luke 22:36-38)

        So don’t confuse yourself that it is wrong to kill in the defense of your own life or others around you who are in harms way, it is however wrong for the individual to kill as an act of revenge, that is left up to the state which is also clearly explained in the Bible as well. We are in modern times and we have invinted guns which if Jesus were here today he would have told his diciples to buy a gun if they did not have any. You need to educate yourself before you go on to blogs and try to slam Republicans who for the most part defend our “Natural/God Given Rights.”

      • eddie47d

        Why is Henry so obsessed with taking over Arab lands and thinking they are our sand box to play in. When you go out looking for trouble you usually find it. Time to keep our nose at home since our foreign adventurism isn’t working out too well. Those death panels come from the queen of hype,der Sarah. I don’t see where liberals approve of them and they seem to only be in Republican fantasies. Abortion is an individual choice which may be a bad one but hardly limited to any one party. Unless you can honestly say a conservative woman has never had one.

      • Karolyn

        Old Henry – “Why are liberals so in favor of Death Panels to kill the elderly and infirm? Why are liberals so in favor of euthenasia? Why are liberals so infavor of the slaughter of Christians by the godless Muslims?”

        Where do you get this crap from? However, what is wrong with euthanasia if the person wants to die?

        As far as abortion goes, I do not believe liberals are FOR abortion; they are FOR individual’s rights.

      • Kate8

        karolyn – No one really wants to die. What they really want is for things to get better.

        A person who ‘wants to die’ has just lost faith that they will get better.

        I’ll bet that if someone offered them a ray of hope, that suicidal wish would vanish.

      • http://smalltimebiggoverment Linda

        Marie1, Republicans are against gun control because all the bad guys will have the guns that includes the Obama White House. And remember guns don’t kill, the people who fire them at people do. It is also our right as Americans to bare arms to protect ourselves. If someone had a gun in Tucson that mad man would have been stopped and quickly. And I agree with other posts when they state Christians have not killed in Gods name, like Mao, Stalin, Hitler and others of their ilk who have killed millions to force their people into Communisum, Socialsim, Marxism and Islam. God’s word condems killings like these animals carried out for their purposes to be Gods by controlling the masses.

      • DaveH

        Karolyn says (right after admonishing Henry for 3 of the things he accused Liberals of wanting, yet admitting to at least 2 of them) — “they are FOR individual’s rights”.
        Karolyn that is so far from the truth that you should be ashamed of uttering those words. Liberals are not even close to being for individual’s rights. The only free choice they would allow individuals is the choice to abort their babies. After that, not much else. They don’t allow us the choice to keep our own hard-earned money. They don’t allow us the choice to forego health insurance. They want to control our energy choices. They want to control our religious expression. They want to take away our gun choices. They want to take away our automobile choices.
        Let’s face it, Karolyn, the Liberals are anything but Pro-Choice, unless you’re the mother of an unborn child.
        When it comes to forcing their way on us, Liberals make the right-wingers pale in comparison.

      • http://smalltimebiggoverment Linda

        Currihee, Thank you good post Murder is the Key as you said – To Murder,with malice. To Kill, the act of killing.

      • DaveH

        Marie1,
        It is you gun-controllers, who want to deprive people of the right to self-protection, who are causing the deaths of innocents. It has been well-established by people like John Lott, that the incidence of murder goes up with gun control, not down. Essentially, you Liberals are, by virtue of depriving people the right of self-defense, accessories to murder:
        http://www.johnlott.org/

      • iam

        Marie1, (some) Republicans are against gun control because it is proven on a daily basis that there are people roaming the streets looking for the opportunity to murder anyone who is handy, and the police cannot be everywhere at all times. We must protect ourselves and our loved ones, and we can’t do it by preaching “love” to the killers.

      • bob wire

        “A person who ‘wants to die’ has just lost faith that they will get better.”

        Right Katie ~ everyone want to go to heaven but few are willing to die to get there.

      • libertytrain

        bob – I’ve often wondered about that too. Quite the conundrum.

      • Karolyn

        Kate – Isn’t it possible that a person wants to die to be free? And why shouldn’t they be abel to? Especially that person sitting like a vegetable. Death is just a transition. What is wrng with wanting to die?

      • Robert Smith

        “Thou shall not kill” that is good,”

        Murder.

        Big difference.

        Self defense is allowed.

        Rob

      • Kate8

        karolyn – A person sitting as a vegetable would be without hope.

        The Left seems so enamored with death. But then, since the Right values life, I guess that’s just how it is.

        We are wired toward survival. Otherwise, most of us wouldn’t stick around when things get tough.

        There are many teachings that we don’t just escape ourselves through death but, rather, just have to deal with the same issues elsewhere.

        In any case, it’s far better to resolve them here and now, and come to terms with oneself before checking out.

      • Dan az

        Kate
        Thanks for the link!I had a buddy die of stomach cancer a few months ago that wanted to take his own life but when it came down to the decision to do it he changed his mind.Hospice gave him a month to live and offered him a way to go easily but he decided to see all of his grandchildren before he went and that took about a year and a half.He died a week later.

      • Altaica

        I know I see guns as a tool to protect myself and to also hunt food for survival. While I do not own a gun, I am for people’s rights to keep and bear arms. I’m not a republican though. But I do sign the anti-gun control petitions and fight for these rights.

        I have also read studies that when conceal carry licenses are more available to the public, crime does go down. It has been demonstrated to be very noticeable. You never know who is carrying a gun, so criminals are more cautious and less likely to make as many bold attacks. Now, I do have to wonder why you are allowed to carry a loaded projectile weapon but not conceal a weapon with a blade longer than 4 inches. This may be due to the availability of blades being more accessible, but I think all arms should be treated equally, as tools for our survival. Those who use the tools as they were designed and intended should not suffer the loss of their rights because some people aren’t able to follow the rules. It has always been my belief that we all have the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit happiness so long as we do no harm. The moment someone does harm that person should be punished, not everyone.

        We don’t have all our other tools regulated like what is tried with guns. A nail gun is not a weapon, but you can kill someone with it. People have used chainsaws, hammers, crowbars, wrenches, screwdrivers, just about every tool has likely been used in the commission of some crime. It’s not the tool it is the user that needs to be looked at.

        And what that leads to is a reform of our penal system. This is where I am likely going to rile up some people. For one, no criminal deserves a luxury that many hard working American’s can’t afford. No cable in jails. They don’t deserve it, I’m sick of my tax money paying for it. Jail is a punishment, but I think too much is given to criminals. If jail sucked then maybe we’d have a lot less repeat offenders. I’m not advocating torture or starvation, but I do agree with the guy in Arizona’s approach. No AC, live in tents, work. Now that is a prison that sucks, and that’s the point. If it doesn’t feel like a punishment people are just going to go back to what they were doing.

        Prisoners should have to work, even if it is mindless repetitive tasks. Prisoner’s work should be used to pay for their necessities. Any money left over after paying for their food, clothes and shelter should be put into an account that is used to pay reparations to those who they have legally wronged. I personally think that if you steal something you don’t get out of jail until you have paid back your debt (no matter how good you act), i.e. if you stole 500 bucks of stuff, you stay there, work 5, 8 hour shifts, and you do this until that 500 is paid in full. The only segregation in jails should be between violent offenders and non-violent offenders. If you are a child molester you should be in with everyone else. None of this, preferential treatment. Maybe if they were scared for their life the whole time they are there they wouldn’t repeat their crimes.

        Just my thoughts. Some criminals live better than hard working Americans. Shouldn’t a criminal be considered lower than the general public. After all, to end up there they have violated someone else’s rights and broken our laws. On this same note I think it is ridiculous that if a person, trespassing on your property and committing a crime gets hurt that you have to pay for it. No, that is crazy. They were breaking the law and the owner gets punished. That is just a whole other level of BS that gets me riled.

      • Kate8

        karolyn – One more thing. People who think they want to die because they are depressed about life, often feel differently when actually being confronted with the reality of dying. Up until that point it is hypothetical.

        No one values life more than the person who is about to lose it.

      • Old Henry

        Well eddie, I was not referring to getting involved in the ME. I think we should get out of there, and everywhere ilse in the world.

        Cowboys and Muslims is a reference to cleaning house right here, right now. If we do not they will over-run this country as they have in Europe. They breed like rats and live like animals.

      • Gwen

        What? You don’t believe in protecting yourself and family? If someone comes in your house intending to harm your family, with a gun are you going to just watch? Or ask them to wait until you call the police?

      • Altaica

        “Evolution is a theory of ATHEISTS and who are WARMONGERS. People tend to get MORE violent when they don’t believe in God. – “Thou shall not kill.””

        Evolution is a theory of science. Science is not inherently atheistic or religious. Here’s a couple Christian Scientists, The head Abbot Gregor Mendel, Father of Genetics; Robert T. Bakker, paleontologist, evolutionist and Christian Minister, and many other religions, here is an example of just a small list: http://www.adherents.com/people/100_scientists.html

        Science does not inherently make people warmongers. I’ve heard of all kinds of wars started over religion and over “Race” Or culture than over science. Science is a tool for understanding, like any tool, used by the wrong people a tool can be turned deadly, but it is no more inherently harmful than the knife you use to butter your toast.

        Wars are started by people, often over territory as justified by their religion or cultural norms. Why do the Isrealites fight with the Palistinians, because after WWII the Isrealites claimed that the land the Palenstinians were on was their land as stated in their religious texts. The Muslims lay the same claim. Who is right and who is wrong? Well that depends on who’s religion you want to prescribe to doesn’t it? History says that the land the ISrealites inhabite first belonged to the Phillistenes. The romans shoved the jewish people there and the Jewish people proceded to wipe the Phillistines off the map. At some point and for some reason the Isrealites left the land, probably the destruction of their temple and wars. Eventually the Palenstinians came to reside there and took their name from the extinct race of the Philistines. Now the Isrealites are back and claim the land is there and what do we have? More war? Over a territorial claim based on religious heritage.

        Now if you are one of those people that think the Isrealites are right in doing this, then I suggest you pack up your things if you have no Native American Heritage and go back to where you came from. The America’s have a very real archeological history that fully supports the Native Americans if they wanted to make the same claims.

        Answer me this, why are 80% of our country’s criminals Christian if having god makes you more moral. There are certainly a lot of people there that violated thou shalt not kill. Or thou shalt not steal.

        Violence begets violence, and if your faith teaches to hate another religion then it only encourages more of that. I don’t think having or not having a religion matters for morals. I think upbringing and societal and cultural norms matter. There are perfectly moral atheists and perfectly amoral Christians.

      • Karolyn

        Thanks, Altaica. I love your posts. Good to “see” you!

      • Bob from SoCal

        Where do you get your statistic that 80% of Americas criminals are Christian? Sounds like hog wash to me. Also, you really should study your middle east history a little better, because you sure are twisting your facts.

      • http://smalltimebiggoverment Linda

        Altaica, Yes there are perfectly moral Christians and Atheist that is not the issue. Just because someone calls himself a Christian or goes to church doesn’t make that a reality. One has to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. As stated in the Bible. Your 80% is really out of thin air or a liberal view of Christianity.

      • Jay

        Altaica , with respect to your understanding of religion, and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? Anaemic at best! Btw, a typical, standard evaluation/definition of both, religion, and the I/P conflict as regurgitated by an intellectually, sanitized liberal. Surely you don’t believe the drivel you just posted, as having been borne from your own intellect, and not from the indoctrination, and that, from having spent way too much time in the liberal indoctrination facilities, do you? Where revised history is a major, bashing religion will earn you a credit, parroting your professor may earn you recognition, and putting your brain in a jar will guarantee you employment. Don’t you think it’s high time you started thinking outside your little box? Shake off your mental chains, Altaica, and think for yourself!

      • Dan az

        Jay
        You get a A+ for that!Wow!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Another Idiot that cannot think properly.

    • Al Sieber

      Dave, I think another one is coming we might get our wish.

      • Old Henry

        I hope not Al. My little girl lives and works in DC (much to my chagrin) as does her fianace. Maybe we can get DaveH to revisit his non-beliefs another way.

      • Kate8

        Al and Old H – Did you happen to view that video that Jay posted yesterday? OMG!!!!

        I keep getting the picture of Yeshau coming in the sky in a blaze of glory, with the sword of truth coming out of His mouth to defeat the armies of satan.

        I have always wondered if that was a literal event, or symbolic. Either way, He defeats the enemy with the TRUTH…isn’t that always the way?

        Well, this series of videos (I’m only at #7) is really blowing me away like nothing ever has!! Want to know B. HUSSEIN Obama’s true bloodline? Along with the bloodlines of ALL OF THE WORLD ELITE LEADERS, and how they connect?

        And guess what? IT’S NOT THE HOUSE OF ROTHSCHILD that is at the top!

        Take the time to watch this series. Someone has gone to a great deal of trouble to do this research, putting together all of the fragmented bits that we’ve been tossed, and coming up with a stunning…shocking…revelation. Actually, many revelations.

        I guarantee your eyes will open like never before.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=OnYpMcaHCFI

      • Dan az

        That’s a keeper kate!

      • Karolyn

        Well, I watched part 1 and couldn’t find part 2. Is this supposed to be something secret? I mean all of the royalty of Europe is related, aren’t they? As far as having Mohammed’s blood, so? I have Tatar/Mongol blood because my ancestry is Polish, and my mother’s side of the family has Asian characteristics. Maybe I’m an ancestor of Genghis Khan. What does that mean? The Polish kings came from different countries, as they did in some other countries. Everything was planned so as to have the most power possible.

        Of course it’s interesting, and I will most likely continue to watch; however, what does it prove? The music is a bit dramatic. It reminds me of the music in that Scandanavian mass-murderer’s video.

      • Kate8

        karolyn – That’s a pretty rash judgment to make after watching only the first video.

        I guarantee you it gets better.

        But then, it doesn’t bother me if you skip it. You haven’t shown much of an interest in the truth so far, anyway.

      • Jay

        Kate, i specifically sent that to you because i knew you were one of the few people that would appreciate and understand it! Btw, have you heard of Joye Pugh? She has done extensive research on the “Shroud of Turin”. Her research will reveal the historical significance of the Shroud, and present day application. If you thought that the royal blood line was an eye opener, Joye Pugh’s findings in regards to the Shroud of Turin, will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up! Ever wonder why princess Diana never pronounced prince William’s full name? She always called him Will. Why? I’ve pasted the podcast from coast to coast with Joye as guest. Find out, and hand on tight…

        http://inthenews.podbean.com/mobile/2010/10/23/prophecy-ufos-shroud-of-turin/

      • Al Sieber

        Dan, Kate was worried about you because you hadn’t posted in a few days. I told her I thought you were helping some people out because you posted that a while back. I took today off because of the high heat here, 115 degrees today. ain’t worth your life. I’ve only taken 2 days off since Oct..

      • Al Sieber

        Thanks for the link Kate, keep ‘em coming.

      • Kate8

        Jay – I’ve been feeling for a long while that we’ve had this whole Tribulation timeline wrong.

        There is so much evidence that WE are, in conjunction with Europe and many other countries, as well, at least part of the Revived Roman Empire, if not the head of it.

        Our whole nation is frought with Roman symbology, especially DC. Lady Liberty is none other than Columbia, or Mithra (Isis?), and she is everywhere, including a major motion picture corp.

        This Roman symbology is in the Capitol, on courthouses, monuments, and seals everywhere. Here in CA, our state seal is Roman.

        There are Roman names everywhere, too, including many places and streets called “New Rome”.

        This empire seems to be well established. All right under our noses.

        But, the “sword of Truth” is being brandished, and by this shall all abomination to God be overthrown.

      • Old Henry

        Thanks Kate8. I guess I missed it yesterday. It looks quite interesting, but I need to get my speakers, or sound card, fixed as I have not had any audio for about 3 weeks. I saved the link, however.

      • Al Sieber

        Kate and Jay, goggle “understanding the nine veils” Carlucci posted the link yesterday, it will give some insight about how and why people think and why we’re doomed.

      • Old Henry

        Polish kings came from different countries… Sounds like, ah, an American president…

      • Old Henry

        Thanks Jay. I used to listen to that program when it was hosted by the late Art Bell “from the High Desert” several years ago. I can no longer stay awake to listen to it now. I read the intro and saved your link for when I get my speakers working. I also passed both links along to several friends / relatives.

      • Old Henry

        Al, but it’s a dry heat! HA! 115 is 115 and that’s damned hot!

        In July most of the month we had 110 – 117 “heat indexes” with actual temps about 95 / 96. I would get soakin’ wet just sitting in the driveway. Stayed hydrated with Miller Lite,however.

      • Jay

        Old Henry, you can always download the podcasts, and listen to them at your leisure. Here’s where you can access them.

        http://inthenews.podbean.com/mobile/category/satan/

      • Dan az

        Al and Kate
        I was helping a friend from the service days that is now dieing from the agent orange we got into and from the island that they dropped us off on that was radiated and wasn’t cleaned up untill ten yrs later.They didn’t tell us about it I just stumbled across it while on the computer.I just hope that with all the information that I dug up will help him and his family.The only thing that I have been able to give him on the agent orange was that they conceded that we were there and are now going to follow the law suit that was won in 1994.If we live long enough to get the truth out there then I will be happy.

      • Kate8

        Dan az – Are you aware that zeolite powders remove all toxins from your body, including chemicals, heavy metals and radiation? They were used on children who were exposed to Chernobel. And they are completely safe and non-toxic.

        Check them out. Here is a site with good info and the best price.
        They are pretty cheap.

        http://www.etszeolite.com/index.html

        I believe that the powder is the most effective. The liquids are just a tsp or so of powder in a bottle of purified water…kind of a rip-off.

        Just use a tsp in water 2 or 3 times a day. Worth a try.

        I’m sorry you are dealing with that. God has a remedy for everything on Earth that affects us, and it is always simple.

      • Christin

        Jay,

        As per your 3:12 pm post with the web site: prophesy-ufos-shroud of turin… do you think this is a reputable site and do you know if Joye Pugh has legitimate information???

        I found her thoughts about Prince William strange and don’t think he is cloned from the blood of Jesus… do you?

        I believe they will clone the Anti-Christ… so that after he is shot and probably dies, ‘they’ will pass off his (soul-less) clone who has no gun shot wound and present himself a God, but I can not see this person as Prince Will… what say you?

      • JeffH

        Kate8, I somewhat remember reading and posting something similar quite some time ago. Something to do with the Royal Crown never getting over our fight for independence from England. When I get back from the bay area on Sunday or Monday I’ll see if I can locate the website. I remember that it posed a very strong case of this nature.

      • JeffH

        Here is the 1 hr 30 minute video of THE ROYAL RED DRAGON BLOODLINES
        http://paraspiracy.com/home/?p=6346

      • Kate8

        Thanks for the site, JeffH.

        Being that the Crown is the home of Freemasonry, and nearly all of our leaders (including our founders) were Freemasons, I’m wondering if we ever actually were free from the British Empire (New Roman Empire).

        From what I’ve gleaned, there was a plan and a purpose for founding America, and it was carefully set up to follow a course. All of the symbolism in our hallowed halls, currency and official documents is Roman. It seems that we were destined from the outset to be New Atlantis, headquarters for the NWO (we were always called the “New World”). Or the new center for the Revived Roman Empire (which I believe has been in existence for centuries already).

        These are my own speculations, but I do feel that things are beginning to come together.

      • Altaica

        That video posed some very interesting theories and correlations I had never thought about. There are of course some statements he made that I don’t wholly agree with, but it was fascinating.

        A thematic connection I made but I don’t know if the video producer realized is the similarities between the story of Nimrod/ Baal that he presented and the Eqyptian story of Isis and Osiris. Set/Seth one of the dark gods of Eqypt fought and killed Osiris. He chopped up Osiris and spread his parts all over the place. His Wife Isis collected all the parts, except his reproductive organs to put him back together and resurrect him. I think in their story the crocs ate them. I’ll have to re-read it, it’s been awhile since I have read them. There are a lot of interesting similarities. I will definitely have to look into both stories and compare and contrast. I need to find my Mesopotamian books and see what is represented in them as well.

        Thanks for sharing the videos. While I do not agree with everything in the videos it did get me thinking about a lot of things that I want to look into now. I watched all 10 that were on youtube.

        The Constantine history and the Nicean council certainly correlates with information I read in the “Encyclopedia of Heretics and Heresies.”

        Some other information about Constantine you might be interested in if you are researching this information. Constantine, like many Romans also worshiped the Persian God, Mithras. Mithras was a sun god. This is a correlation to Apollo. The Roman’s called this Sol Invictus. This translates from the latin to Unconquered Sun.

      • OB1

        There’s a thought, Old Henry! I have tremendous confidence in DaveH. “Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened. Ask, and I shall come in, and I shall sup with you and you with me”. I’ve been thinking about how much I’ve learned in a few months from all of you on these posts, and how much I appreciate it. Humility and wisdom are the fruits of the spirit. I see much of that here as well as in Ron Paul. He doesn’t have to preach it because he has and is living it. Knowledge is great. Applied knowledge is beneficial, wise, and humbling. I suppose that is why the media and the elites are so afraid of Ron Paul. “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Whom he has set free, is free indeed.” Thanks again for all your posts, and for Bob Livingston giving us a forum to speak and learn from others!

      • Kate8

        OB1 – Godspeed, fellow patriot.

        Hope you stick around.

      • Old Henry

        OB1:

        Great post! I too have learned much in just over a year.

        It’s too bad that when TSHTF we will no longer be able to stay in touch, at least physically. Spiritually, howver…. And who knows – the Lord works in mysterious ways.

      • Christin

        OB1,

        That you OB1 Kanobe?!… just teasing.

        Loved your post.

        I have been reading and listening and taking notes since I found Bob Livingston’s Personal LIBERTY site last year. So many posters are very knowledgeable about one thing or another and have much expertise in water storage, electrical, and solar panels… we are all parts of the whole. I have learned SO MUCH from so many of them.

        Thank you OB1 and everyone. God bless.

      • Al Sieber

        Sorry Henry, we could use some of that rain where I live, no rain for 6 months and 115 degrees for 2 weeks. I hope your little girl is okay. I have some family and friends in upstate N.Y. and I worry about them also.

      • Kate8

        Al – That heat sounds dreadful.

        BTW, did you see the video I posted for you yesterday? The one where people in the SoCal desert are being ejected from their land on phoney, trumped up code violations?

        This is Agenda 21, universal coding. It is going to be everywhere, and they don’t like people living off the grid.

      • Kate8
      • Old Henry

        Al:

        She if okay, but I heard of the quake on the WC right after it occurred and went into a panic as she lives in a basement apt. I could not get thru on my cell or my land line. Her mom finally “got er done”.

        So sorry to hear about your very adverse weather. Are you still “digging holes” in that heat?

      • Dan az

        Kate
        Don’t let that Al fool ya he likes that kind of heat its sweater whether for him :) I read the article on the desert people and remembered why I left the communist state of kalif.Haven’t stepped in it ever sense. :)

      • Al Sieber

        You’re right Dan, anything below 80 is sweater weather, a few Miller Lites and plenty of water.

      • Kate8

        Dan az – I posted it because it won’t stop here. It is part of Agenda 21 and is worldwide. It is already spreading to other states. They want everyone on the grid, and they want everyone off the remote lands.

        Be watchful, and do what you can to fight.

      • Al Sieber

        Kate, it’s gonna cool down to 106 by Friday. I watched the video about S. Cal. it’s gonna happen all over the country, they don’t want you to be self sufficient. the closes town to me has about 80 people and none of them know where I live. I have 40 acres of mineral property (Panted by the Govt.) you own all rights mineral, water etc. and they are talking about trying to take it, I wonder if that’s what happened in Calif. go to landrights.org. I also lease 480 acres from the Govt., only the minerals rights. small mining is one of the last vestiges of free enterprises and they want to stop that. I have no problems here in Ariz. yet.

      • Kate8

        Al – Where I live, in the Sierra Nevada, the miners up in the remote canyons have been having their mines confiscated.

        It’s amazing how fast things are moving now, and quite under the radar for most folks.

        BTW, there is a huge uprising against Agenda 21 here in CA, and other states, as well. In fact, all over the world. People are getting it.

    • bob wire

      As I was reading this I was thinking, I wonder how Dave is going to weigh in on this one? ~ Humor is good! Wise move.

      Cause and effect is very predictable, especially over short distant and short time.

      Imperfection come into play the longer the distance and time.

      Leverage!

      I don’t accept the notion of perfection in the physical world hence accounts for the random factor.

      Like every snow flake is the same but each very different.

      This random factor is the search for perfection, evolving and adapting.

      Time is the limiting factor.

      and time is all you might wish for, given the time, all wrongs might be made right, all disassembled made whole.

      There is only one time that can exist in the same place and at the same time. That time is “now” . We live in the now. “Now” is where you make your past and shape your future.

      To think you life or the world is predestined is to believe in perfection.

      I can’t see it , left only to consider it.

    • 45caliber

      DaveH:

      I understand your feeling. However, I’ve always been of the belief that God tries to warn the sinners a few times before the hammer comes down. But I suspect that the ones He’s trying to warn won’t even realize they are being warned.

      • TomP

        I agree. Every time God judged Israel in the OT, it wasn’t a giant thumb that came out of the sky but he used nations around them to bring judgement. AND they were given many years to turn their hearts around. God is very patient but there will come a time when he will say “I’m done”.

    • wandamurline

      There will be more to come…these are just shots across the bow.

      • eddie47d

        Just to get your juices flowing. Could there be a connection to all the fracking going on in this country for that earthquake happening near Washington? Pennsylvania isn’t that far away and they are disturbing allot of cracks in the earth. I also don’t believe God is deliberately causing natural disasters so Christians can gloat about His amazing power.Now that is way too much wishful thinking on the part of the Faithful.

      • Old Henry

        Well eddie, it is not wishful thinking. It is facing reality. God used to do the same thing with the Israelites, and usually with the same success He is having with our nation’s populace.

      • Al Sieber

        Well Henry, God has to do a lot more earth quakes then this to wake people up in this country. this year alone there has been about 48 earthquakes north of me near Lake Meade, I think it has to do with HAARP. “Angels don’t play this Harp”

      • Kate8

        Al – Could very well be HAARP, but there are some who say fracking could also be causing quakes, including this recent one.

      • Kate8

        TomP., 45, Wanda – Watch the videos I posted above, which Jay posted yesterday.

        See if this doesn’t put it all together for you.

        Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=OnYpMcaHCFI

    • Dan az

      Now thats Funny!

    • OB1

      DaveH, you started the way this thread started! This is a utube clip from Ron Paul’s book Liberty Defined. This clip is read from Chapter 18 on Evolution vs. Creationism:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eiR_U8vhIo&feature=related

      Secondly, his statement of his FAITH. He lives it.

      http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/statement-of-faith/

      For today, I choose to stay on the writer of this article’s topic. However, I appreciated your humor as I was born in Washington D.C. very near the capitol…..

    • Scott

      The reason you dont understand and have all these questions is because you dont know GOD, He is the answer to all these questions, God is knocking on your door open it and get to know him personally and you will have almost all the answers you are looking for,

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