Yeah, GOOD FOR THEM

As they are another liberal haven. Give me the good ole mom n’ pop, country cookin’, honor your parents, god, and country mid-west and southern states.

As you wish. Oh by the way, the last three Democratic Presidents came out of the south and the mid-west.

And that means what? Dumbocrats come from everywhere unfortunately, even the south, even though they have probably bucked thier upbringin’.

Not the last one. He came out of the Islam-enforced nation of Indonesia and was born of a open anti-American, Socialist Mother and a Kenyan father who despised the U.S., promoted the downfall of America, and also embraced the Communist party line.

Rick – And you know this how?

It’s all been well-researched and documented and is a part of public record. Of course I wouldn’t expect someone with your narrow-mindedness to believe it or check it out. Anything that flies in the face of your beliefs has to be some huge lie or conjecture dreamt up without any regard for the truth by the right.

Rick,
Didn’t you know that kind of print doesn’t show up under rose colored glasses??? Karolyns see no evil, hear no evil, as long as it prog based is gonna be her downfall!!!!

And NYC has some of the world’s rudest people one can imagine…I don’t think, Doc S, that the world is going to be any better by having marriages between same gender couples…as a matter of fact, it could make some matters worse. Quit dumming up homosexuality; it isn’t the best thing this world has going for it..just my opinion, thank you.

NY hs some of the world’s rudest people? Have you done a study? I beg to differ. As a matter of fact I’ve always told people that most of the people I’ve come into contact with in NYC have been very nice and helpful. I used to live in NJ, 30 minutes from NYC.

Now I see where you get your belief, you must have lived close too and voted for the evil sucker Barnie Franks.

DC is disoriented for Franks is from Massachusetts.

Speaking of “useful idiots”. What a tool you are Madam Karolyn.

Rick – Do you always answer a simple question with a derogatory remark? I guess you don’t have an answer to my question.

and Jesus said “before you pull the splinter out of my eye remove the log from yours”

Sometimes the questions beg for a derogatory remark. Besides you started with the derogatory remarks but then you’re so blind and ignorant that you couldn’t see it if it came up and bit you on your …!!

Karolyn: Rick, Do you always answer a simple question with a derogatory remark? I guess you don’t have an answer to my question.

Hmm, which is worse? Always answering a question with a derogatory remark, or always asking a deceitful and derogatory question that begs for a derogatory remark?

Listen, I have lived in a communist country – most of what I can say about communism is first-hand experience. And yes the strategy was to eliminate the church thru open persecution in east and also thru penetrating into the church in east and west (I knew of one young communist who was sent to seminary to become a priest but converted during his studies). You have to be really on guard and believe me you do not want a communism here – to live in a “closet” is like living in a paradise comparing to living in a communist country.
As far as your second comment, I have not witnessed a child to be born out of two homosexual union of two men or two women.

Ever hear of artificial insemination? I know a lesbian couple who have 3 kids – a set of twins to one and a single child to the other. They are the greatest kids! They are intelligent, loving, caring kids and a great asset to society!

So it is medically possible to take eggs from two female donors and make a baby? Or to take the sperm from two men and make a baby? Artificial insemmination is NOT natural procreation. Granted, it’s possible to make create a child from artificial insemmination but you HAVE to have reproductive cells from BOTH a male and a female in order for it to work. Correct me if I’m wrong. Please. Because that would prove to me that the sex education classes I got when I was in grade school was wrong as well.

Keep us posted, Karolyn. We are all waiting with bated breath to hear the wonderfully good news that one of your homosexual acquaintances is going to have a baby. That will be interesting, in and of itself. We will certainly want to know all the details, especially about how the gentleman became pregnant (and no fair using the lines from Arnold Schwarznegger’s movie where he gave birth to a baby). No one said that same gender couples could not make good parents, some do and some don’t–just as with heterosexual couples. Why did you feel it was necessary to provide the graphics on the ladies’ pregnancies??? That was information the public did not need to know. See, that’s what I mean when it becomes apparent that same gender couples are forcing their lifestyle onto others..we don’t want their sordid details and we don’t care if they live together; just shut up about it. As for having insurance rights and all that crap, that was nothing more than pure bunk. Some insurance companies already existed that provide coverage for same gender couples; as for information sharing at banks, hospitals, etc, then filling in a simple form allowed the sharing of info. So, all this garbage is just that.

CJM – There are loving homosexual couples who want to commit just like heterosexuals. It’s all about love, not sex or anything else.

Karolyn:Ever hear of artificial insemination? I know a lesbian couple who have 3 kids – a set of twins to one and a single child to the other. They are the greatest kids! They are intelligent, loving, caring kids and a great asset to society!

You forgot to add Confused, Indoctrinated, and Brainwashed to the list! Just being helpful…

Karolyn,
If those GAY parents you talk of produced those children from only THEIR bodies, no outsiders involved, then put me in touch with them, I’ll make them multi-millionaires!!!

Karolyn,

Hey,that would be a virgin birth.

(offensive comment removed)

So what happened in your case? BTW, in my limited intelligence I seem to recall that procreation is NOT possible between two creatures of the same sex. The closest thing would be “asexual” reproduction which only amoebas and certain plants are capable of unless you want to count parthenogenesis and gynogenesis.

I just want it to be clear, my previous comment was directed at madame Karolyn.

There are some animals other than ameobas, like snails, some snails use asexual reproduction. But scientifically speaking humans do not reproduce asexually.

What you meant to say was,”scientifically,humans are not(designed)to reproduce asexually.”-CC.

…and some have rejected that lifestyle in their up-bringing and openly voiced that rejection as “I wouldn’t wish my life on anyone”…

Again, this legislation is dangerous, a slippery slope, the thin edge of the wedge or the camel’s nose. Anyone who has had children or been around young children knows how easy it is to influence them about anything. How will a K-8 child know what gay history means without knowing what a being gay means? Kids are at their most vulnerable during those times and to confuse a child then can lead to a very dangerous repercussions later in life, including but not limited to “guilt” for “experimenting ” with their own sexuality.
This is what can become the dangerous side of this type of legislation. BUYER BEWARE…!

I’ll say this about the “social science/history” aspect of teaching about gay contributions to history. We’re taught about ethnic contributions to our history but since when has being “gay” become an ethnicity and since when have we started to discern the “sexual orientation” of our history makers as relevant part of history? Sexual orientation should never be a relevant part of our history teachings.

I agree fully with Cawmun Cents idea that the teaching of gay history should be offered as an elective, a free choice to those interested and only at the secondary level of education(Grades 9 to 12).

Jeff – Nobody said kindegartners were going to be taught any of this. Surely you’re aware that kids in 5th grade know about sex these days. Many even younger. There are 12 year olds getting pregnant! That tells me that they do need sex education in the early levels. However, we’re not talking about sex education anyway.

Karolyn…WELL EXCUSE ME, 1st grade and up…this will become part of the standard curriculum for ages 6 and up…you are completely delusional. Kids don’t understand anything about sex and it’s not the governments job to teach them. Can you spell F-O-R-C-E-D?
Children will be forced to learn about gay history and with that comes all of the other questions about “gay”. I’m quite sure you learned about gays on your own (maybe?) and other kids don’t need to be forced to learn about gays, their lifestyles or what gay means…they’ll learn about it soon enough, without the forces of some LGBT politically driven agenda.

Or you could argue that the fact that 12 year olds are getting pregnant and the 5th graders know more about sex than you do is sound reasoning that children need LESS sex education in schools. The point is, if you introduce such a subject to young, impressionable minds, they are naturally going to be curious and will have more of a propensity to experiment “just to find out what all the fuss is about” (that last phrase came from our daughter 8 years ago when we found out that she had become sexually active at the ripe age of 15).
She told us that she became curious after sex education classes in school. Bottom line is, this is a subject that is best left solely to the parents to discuss with their children when they believe their children are both emotionally and intelligently mature enough to handle such matter. All kids mature at different rates. The schools are NOT the place to teach such a subject because the schools are not the best ones to know if/when a child is mature enough much less force it upon an entire class of raging hormones and testosterone all at different maturity levels. Keep this kind of crap out of our schools and leave it in the hands of the parents where it rightfully belongs. If the parents want to “queer” their child then that is their business but I honestly believe you’d be hard-pressed to find two parents (unless they are proud, rainbow-waving members of the GLBT community) who would actually promote such guidance to their own children.

Karolyn, I guess you believe the definition of a virgin is a ugly third grader.

Karolyn,
If you are so worried about bullying then why not just teach the kids not to pick on ANYONE DIFFERENT from them???? Why just teach them tolerance for just GAYS???? Why not just DIFFERENT!!! That way there’s no need to mention gay at all!! That won’t happen though as it’s an AGENDA!!!

Seems to me that the ones being bullied are the parents who want to protect their own children and raise them as they, themselves (not government) see fit.

Karolyn, read sometimes. The law clearly states K-12.

Rick,
I disagree on the gun safety and elementary children. I was about six or seven the year my dad started teaching me about guns. I entered the army and shot expert and have never in my life shot anybody in any other setting but war in a me or them situation. I am a very responsible gun owner and have taught both of my girls how to shoot and the safety involved in guns. I also taught them one very important rule and that is never pull a gun on someone unless if push comes to shove you are WILLING TO USE IT!

Joe,

You missed my point. My point I was trying to make was the “teaching being age appropriate” statement in the one response. It is up to the parents to decide when their child is ready for whatever the subject may be. I applaud you for teaching your kids as early as you did. There have been cases in the news where a young child of only 6 or 7 had been schooled in the use of a firearm and successfully stopped a home intrusion or attack against their mother because of it. I too was taught how to properly handle a firearm when I was 7 or 8 and went through a firearms training class when I was 13. I’ve since spent over 20 years in the Air Force as an Intelligence Analyst and now have carry permits good for 36 states and carry from time to time depending on where I might be going that day. I might add that I did not see a need for a carry permit or the need to purchase a firearm until about 2 months after our “annointed one” took the oath and I saw very quickly the direction he intends to take this country. Someone earlier pointed out the 45 steps in the Communist Manifesto that dictate how to destroy capitalism and invoke the Communist party line on a country. I couldn’t agree more that we are already seeing most of those steps being implemented and, I might add, as part of my training for my Air Force career we were taught early on those 45 steps so that we would have a better understanding of our enemy at the time.

p.s. I just wanted to say “Thank You” for your service while I’m at it.

Rick,
the same right back atcha!!!

The theory of evolution is provable. There is proof in our DNA, the fossil record and in the our own world. The finches of the Galapagos Islands show how evolution is at work. The presence of vestigial limbs proves evolution. Transitional fossils prove evolution. Animals adapting to the changes of the environment proves evolution. There is a very large amount of data that proves the theory of evolution. Science tests and proves it’s theories. When something changes and is proven to no longer be applicable science fixes it.

The bible (or any other religious text) doesn’t change when it is proven wrong. It remains stagnant. Religion is also pretty open to interpretation. If that were not the case then there would only be one branch of christianity.

The difference here is that science states what they mean and are honest as to whether something can be observed, tested or extrapolated. So many people misrepresent what the words hypothesis, theory, and law mean. In science it is very clear cut what each means.

See http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm for the proper definitions of theory, hypothesis, and law. “Theory:
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it. Therefore, theories can be disproven. Basically, if evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, then the hypothesis can become accepted as a good explanation of a phenomenon. One definition of a theory is to say it’s an accepted hypothesis.”

As long as religions are taught about with the understanding and honestly of: this is what is believed in this religion then it is acceptable to teach it so that people can learn the other view points. If when religion was proven wrong by historical fact said religion would amend their teachings to state, we believed this, but now we know this to be true, perhaps it would be more accepted as a serious academic subject. Science does this, if hard, proven evidence that is testable in a repeatable fashion is demonstrated and reviewed by the scientific community disproves a theory with the weight of pure empirical data, then the theory is revised and science changes.

As for educational time, there is only so much time a curriculum has. Religion is something, that since there is a separation of church and state, is expected to be taught by the parents. Some schools however, prepare their students for entering life in a world rife with a myriad of beliefs and views by going over the mainstream religions they are most likely to encounter. Like any other academic subject schools teach enough for a person to get by. If they want to understand more then they take more courses at their discretion and learn more. By no means do the subjects taught at our schools give any of our students all the tools they need to be a historian, scientist, theologian, mathematician, writer, etc. It is up to the individual to decide after they leave the public educational system whether they wish to pursue deeper into any subject.

O-K-A-Y,
But Where are the missing links. Lets say evolution for animals is correct, thoery of evolution cannot apply to man since we have only been here for relatively short period of time (by the hand of GOD in my understanding and faith). Neanderthal man does not count since he walked the earth with modern man for a period of time. The remains of Lucy are fossilized therefore cannot yield any DNA evidence. In those 2 cases the thoery fall apart.

Neanderthal man DOES count…and believe it or not, scientists are in the process of proving it. Neanderthal man was human, but an early form of man and he sure did walk upright. Genesis and the Gospels tell us “And God said Let US make man in OUR image”. Adam and Eve were the first to inhabit God’s Paradise, Eden, but not the only humans on earth (given that Cain married and she left with him when God banned him from his parents home, marking him so that OTHERS would not harm him). The Bible covers only the Middle Eastern world; the history is silent on other regions, but we are finding that life known to mankind did exist in those regions.

As science is finding fossilized does not mean that DNA can not be acquired. It was once thought that this was the case, but in the past few years a paleontologist was able to acquire fragments of DNA from a Dinosaur. If you can get Dinosaur DNA from fossils you can get DNA from much younger fossils.

The world and humans are far older than the Bible leads you to believe. However, the culture and history of the people detailed in the Bible may have only been extant for a relatively short amount of time. Taken from that standpoint your culture is like 6000 years old.

Many other cultures have histories that extend before then and there are many young cultures that may consider their world as younger still. It is merely a cultural perspective.

As for using your bible for logic, there were other humans that your god did not create and it is mentioned right in Genesis. When Cain was exiled he eventually came upon other humans. These were not your God’s creations, they were just there. I believe the Canaans fall into this category, but I may be remembering incorretly.

CBJ is correct in this just covering the middle east. Your bible actually supports that it does not cover the world by the mention of other peoples not created by God. Your commandments also acknowledge that there are other Gods. “Thou shalt have no other God before me, for I am a jealous God.”

Altaica ,
Excerpts

The Biggest Lie Ever told(the Bible Myth)

This excerpt is from the fourth edition of the book “The Biggest Lie Ever Told”. The book has been extensively revised and enhanced. The Fourth Edition contains more than twice the content of the previous volume. Much of the commentary has been diligently refined pursuant to greater clarity. We have also added a great deal of information relevant to religious esotericism and mythology that was not included in the previous volumes.

Excerpt : From Chapter Six:

Solar Symbolism, Festivals And Holidays
The Gospel, the Torah and the Quran as well as various other doctrinal books are not the literal truth. These religious books are based, in great part, on astronomical symbolism, allegory and myth. The myths of these scriptures fall into the same categories as the myths of ancient Rome and Greece. The stories within these books are, for the most part, allegorical representations of the movements of celestial entities within the cosmos and/or symbolical renderings of seasonal and agricultural transitions.

Much of the bible is based on solar mythology i.e. symbolism that reflects the movements of the sun throughout its annual cycle. Under this symbolism the sun is viewed as god; the constellations are viewed as locations through which the god (sun) travels. Of course in some cases the constellations are personified as prophets or deities, likewise with the planets and stars. These matters are covered in great detail in my series of books titled “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth”.

So the sun (fire) is a mythological symbol of the divine, and darkness is the mythological symbol of the demonic forces or opponents of light (sun, fire). Witness this quote from my book, The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth, Book Two:
Ancient Mythology was the rendering of scientific astronomy in a mythological format. Mythology symbolizes the movements of the heavenly bodies within the cosmos. Astronomy deals with charting the cycles of all the entities within the cosmos. The Prophecy that prevails in Mythology and religion is a result of this charting. Of course a Prophecy, when delivered in a personified religious format, seems to be the miraculous foretelling of human events. But, in its Original form, the Prophecy did not pertain to future human activity. The Prophecy pertained to the future movements of celestial entities.

Christ, The Sun And The Zodiac
Solar mythology is symbolism reflective of the sun’s movement throughout its annual cycle. This system is very ancient, in fact we don’t have a record of its absolute origin. It has existed in some form on all continents, in all ages. The ancients did not use scientific names to identify the cosmic entities; they used earthly names, they named the stars, planets, sun, moon, and constellations in duplication of the entities within their earthly environment. This is clearly exemplified in Greek and Roman mythology, which we all are familiar with, whereas the interplay between the cosmic lights are likened unto contending gods, such as Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Persephone, Hades, Demeter, Jupiter, Saturn, Diana, Venus, Ceres, Hermes, and many others. These names reflect cosmic stars, planets, and constellations that were personified in Greek and Roman mythology – their stories read like human intrigues but we all know the true references are to the cosmic lights.

All cultures have their forms of mythology, that is to say allegorical symbolism reflective of astronomy, agriculture, history, culture, and so on. Cosmic mythology existed among the Chinese, Hindus, Egyptians, Babylonians, Aztecs, Japanese, Irish, and many, many others, including the Hebrews. The biblical stories of the Old Testament and the New Testament are not historical, but rather are tales reflective of Hebrew mythology.

The biblical story of Christ is not historical; it is a tale of Hebrew mythology. Actually the Christ story is a mixture of Hebrew and Greek influences, descended from more ancient mythologies, but how we designate it, rather Hebrew or Greek or even Egyptian is not important because all of the ancient mythologies paralleled each other – they all told the same stories of the interactions of the cosmic lights under various cultural formats. Jesus was the sun, born on December 25th; under the allegorical symbolism incorporated by the early Hebrew or Hebrew-Christian mythologists. A human Jesus never lived, not under the name Jesus, or a name such as Jehoshua Ben Pandera or any other name – Jesus Christ never existed, period! The Christ story within the bible is an allegorical tale, just like the Greek stories of Zeus or Roman stories of Jupiter; anthropomorphic tales reflective of astronomical phenomena.

A clear example of Hebrew mythology reflective of astronomical phenomena is found in the biblical passages concerning the so-called angel “Lucifer”. We all know that the term Lucifer (Latin: Light-bearing) refers to the planet Venus, according to our dictionaries. Venus is known as the Morning Star and also the Evening Star, as it plays both roles in the course of its orbit. When in its cycle as the Morning Star, it heralds the dawning of the sun; it shines at dawn as the brightest light in the sky, as if to challenge the sun. But when the sun breaches the horizon, it obliterates its (Lucifer’s) light and sends it into oblivion (darkness). This astronomical event is described in Isaiah of the bible – take note as to how the writers have completely personified the planet Venus as the rebellious angel Lucifer in describing its interaction with the sun at dawn:

Isaiah 14:11 through Isaiah 14:19
11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. This is pure allegorical poetry, written in a fashion that parallels the mythological writings of the Greeks and the Romans. Of course theologians will try to apply these verses to the unseen demon, Satan, or to a wicked Babylonian king perhaps, but if you diligently examine the phrases you will see clearly that the above is a personified description of cosmic interactions, planetary interactions between the sun and Venus as viewed from earth.

The biblical story of Jesus’ life, from birth to death, is symbolic of the path of the sun through the Zodiac in the course of one year; his birth life and death are written in the stars. His story is a myth styled after the patterns of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and others. As the story goes, he was born in a stable on December 25th, placed in a manger, while the Shepherds were attending their flocks – this is patently true under the allegorical symbolism of the sun. The birth of the sun takes place in the sector of Capricorn; included within this sector are the constellations Cepheus (The King), Cygnus (The Swan), Delphinus (The Dolphin), Pegasus (The Winged Horse), and Equllus (The Small Horse). Within the Constellation of the king (Cepheus), there are two stars of note, among others that make up this constellation – they are Errai, and Alfirk; Errai means shepherd and Alfirk means flock, this explains the shepherds and the flock that were nearby at the time of Christ’s (sun’s) birth. Also, Christ was said to have been laid in a manger at birth – it so happens that when the sun is in Capricorn, at midnight, the stars that light the night sky at the zenith are of the sign opposite the sun sign[1], which in this case points to Cancer. Within the sector of Cancer, there is an asterism known as the Beehive; Beehive is a recent name, anciently this asterism was called the “Manger”, clearly indicating the manger assigned to the birth of Jesus (the sun-god).

Actually, according to the solar symbolism, the sun (Christ) dies, and is born in the same sign (Capricorn) – that is the completion of a one-year cycle. I explained the death of the sun (Christ) earlier in the book as occurring on December 22, three days before its rebirth as the new Christ (sun) – now witness this excerpt from my book “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth” which explains one phase of the symbolism of the dying sun (Christ):
”Golgotha is the location of the crucifixion and as such represents the Winter solstice . The word Golgotha and Capricorn share the same definition, as a term that refers to Skulls, Death. The Winter Solstice is symbolized by the terms Golgotha, Capricorn, Hades, Pit, Calvary, Hell, Bottomless Pit, Cave, Grave , Graveyard and other terms.

As explained earlier, the three days that Christ spent in the Grave refer to the three days period of Solstice. The sun, after it reaches its lowest point of declination, on December 22, Hesitates in Place for three days, before re-ascending northward toward the vernal equinox. The priest symbolized this three day period of solstice as being buried in the Grave for three days.

The Crucifixion of Christ, On The Cross, refers to the Cross in the Constellation of Cygnus(the Swan) which lies in the same sector with Capricorn.

The Two Thieves that are crucified with the Savior(Sun) refer to the Equinoxes. The one on the Right Hand is the Vernal Equinox. The one on the Left Hand(who bad mouthed the savior) is the Autumnal Equinox . The Equinoxes are referred to as thieves, because they are thieves of time. They still Time from each other. When the Sun intersects either equinox, for that day of crossing, Time(Daytime and Nighttime) on the planet is brought into equilibrium, at twelve hours. We have twelve hours of light and twelve hours of darkness, on the day of the Equinox. In the case of the Vernal Equinox(which represents light), He, on the second day after the sun’s crossing, Steals Time from the Autumnal Equinox(which represents darkness) and from this point, the world continues to have more light(daytime) than darkness, until the Sun crosses the Autumnal Equinox. When the Sun crosses the Autumnal Equinox, this thief(autumnal equinox) repeats the crime(theft of time) in the favor of increased Darkness.”

At the next cardinal point, the vernal equinox, Christ, the sun, is tempted or tried by Satan for forty days; See excerpt from my book “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth” that explains this symbolism:

“The Magnificent Forty:

The Number forty is one of the most significant symbolisms used within the scriptures. In consequence of this fact, I have inserted several quotations from the bible , that give reference to the number forty(40). The number forty represents pure symbolism and allegorically expresses the interval of time between the sun reaching certain celestial coordinates(the equinoxes), and its(sun’s) tangible effect upon the climate of our planet, after reaching those coordinates. The interval is forty days , even though the biblical editors may use weeks, or years , or hours, in the text, according to the subject matter of the tale , so that the unit(description) used will fit the context of the specific fable.

The interval is always referred to as a Struggle of some sort, some type of deprivation, or trial, or test. This is because of the extreme difficulty our solar sun experiences in vanquishing the winter cold from our atmosphere. After six months under the equator , the sun is now in position , when it reaches the vernal equinox on March 21 , to restore warmth and moisture to the northern regions. But the victory of warmth over cold is not immediate, but rather a tug of war , back and forth, between the forces of light (warmth, salvation, reward and blessings) and darkness (cold, tempting devil , Satan ).

But after 40 days (May Day), you can rest assured that the frost won’t ruin your crops. The sun is now victorious, and free of the tempting(tugging) devil of winter.

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water , he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 1:12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days , tempted of Satan ; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

This Forty refers to the Lag Time between the Sun reaching the equinoxes, to the actual Terrestrial effect on the earth , that takes about 40 days to materialize. The Spring and the Fall begin officially when the Sun crosses the Equinoxes, but the effect on the earth’s weather is delayed for a period of forty days.

This Period between the Sun ’s astronomical position and the earth’s warming or cooling is a wilderness journey. The Goal or the Mount has been reached , but the effect on the earth’s climate takes more time(40 days , which represents the amount of time needed for complete seasonal transition ).

The Ancients symbolized this period in the Wilderness , by two semi-equinoctial holidays, namely May Day that comes forty days after the Spring equinox , and Halloween which comes forty days after the Fall equinox.

You will note that after the sun(under the type of Israel) crossed the Red Sea , it(sun-Israel) had to endure forty years struggle in the wilderness. And likewise , after Jesus (sun) crossed the sea(river of John The Baptist) he was immediately taken to task by the Devil for forty days of trials , temptation and fasting. The symbolism of the magnificent 40 is very explicit and occurs throughout the bible”

At the next cardinal point, the Summer Solstice, Christ (sun) enters Jerusalem, riding on two asses; see quotation from my book “The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth” that explains this symbolism:
”Christ enters Jerusalem riding upon a Colt and an Ass

Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass , and a colt the foal of an ass.

Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt , and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

Mat 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strowed them in the way.

The astronomical analogy

Jerusalem is the Summer Solstice , the Apex , the highest point of the Sun ’s(Father’s) travels. Ever since the Sun(Father) crossed the vernal equinox , His Focus has been on Jerusalem.

He(Sun ) enters Jerusalem riding upon two asses . This refers to two prominent stars which the Sun rides(crosses) within the constellation of Cancer (the sign of the summer solstice ). The stars are Asellus Borealis (Northern Ass) and Asellus Australis (Southern Ass ).”

At the next cardinal point, Christ is betrayed, and captured by the underworld forces of opposition; he is tried and judged in court (Libra), and found guilty and sentenced to death, to the grave. The actual grave is at Capricorn as I have already indicated, but the capture that opens the pathway to the grave is at the autumnal equinox, at Libra, after September 22 when the sun crosses the Fall equinox. Libra (the 7th sign) was the sign of Christ’s trial before Pontius Pilate as indicated by its sigil, the scales of justice (or injustice we might say). The gateways between the lower world and the upper world are at the equinoxes; the vernal equinox is the gateway to the higher hemisphere, equated with redemption, and the autumnal equinox is the gateway to the lower hemisphere, equated with suffering and death, according to the ancient symbolism. So when the sun falls below the equinox in the last part of the year and the earth approaches winter, the ancients saw that event as the imprisonment of the sun, or the wounding of the sun, whereas its light was impeded and made ineffective; the imprisonment of Christ and the eventual crucifixion of him is symbolic of the span from the autumnal equinox to the sun’s death at the winter solstice, in the annual phase of the solar symbolism. Of course, biblically the resurrection of Christ takes place proximate to the vernal equinox; this is because of the cultural input from the Hebrew-Christians who wrote the biblical Christ myth. They fashioned the Christ after the sacrificial lamb of the Passover festival. It was the custom of the Jews to sacrifice lambs or goats proximate to the equinoxes, both vernal and autumnal; they also linked this sacrifice (killing of the animal) to the expiation of their sins – the animal was termed a scapegoat, a scapegoat that carried the load of punishment for the accumulated sins of the Jewish population. This is where the myth comes from that Jesus died for the sins of the world; it’s simply a copy of the old pagan, superstitious customs of the nomadic Hebrews. The bible clearly calls Jesus the Passover, that he was a substitute for the lamb of the Jews brought forth to human form under the Christian doctrine, which (doctrine) was composed by the early Christians who were actually Jews, members of a Jewish sect that later, overtime became distinct as Christians

coal – Thanks. I have to get that book.

Coal,

This book looks very interesting. I am going to have to check it out after I am done reading my other books.

A quote comes to mind from one of my favorite bands, Fall Out Boy. In one of his songs he sings “The best part of believe is the lie.”

Now I am of the opinion that there are truths and such that can be found if you can pick apart the myths and legends and old stories. There are relevant lessons of the time and clues to their history. I understand the reason people tell big stories is because it makes them entertaining and they stick with you. This way the hidden lessons and ideas are preserved. We are social creatures after all, and our histories were passed down orally at first. You didn’t have anything but your memory to hold the information, Of course you are more likely to remember a story that grabbed your attention then something mundane and boring. Those stories that captured the attention of more people flourished and grew. And of course if you have ever played the game telephone, you know that when you tell something you heard and pass it on it grows and changes from person to person. The original message gets buried deeper and deeper with each retelling, which makes studying and searching for the original meaning, well exciting! I love puzzles and the world’s religions are full of hidden kernels just waiting to be found if you can figure out the puzzle behind them.

Using stories to pass on astrological knowledge is a very good way to preserve that information. We do this with all kinds of things. For example: Hey you give me back my gold! Ah Gee all I got was silver. in this example we use similar sounding words to represent letters. AU is the chemical symbol for gold and AG is the chemical symbol for silver. I learned this almost 20 years ago. I can’t remember most of the periodic table of elements, but I sure remember those two. Another of my favorites is: Little Johnny is no more for what he thought was H2O was H2SO4. It’s a good way to remember that Sulfuric acid resembles water in many visible ways. I had some great high school science teachers.

Now haven read your complete blog let me say this, MOST science today is full of Sh**. Global warming (junk science), Evolution (unproven and can never be without a missing link), so you see science does not correct itself very well either and is partial to the politics of the days, past, present, and future. Only religiion (defined as a belief in a higher power, GOD if you will) stands on principle and does not change, it means what it says and say what it means.

How about your scientists, they disagree constantly, there is no one truth, Hawkings, Einstien, etc, all had differing beliefs and all thought they were correct, but no one will ever truely know the truth.

AND that is the grand design my friend, that is why we faith and belief, and you have thoery.

Altaica,

Evolution is a fact:

Science News:
Genetic Switch for Limbs and Digits Found in Primitive Fish: Before Animals First Walked On Land, Fish Carried Gene Program for Limbs
ScienceDaily (July 11, 2011) — Genetic instructions for developing limbs and digits were present in primitive fish millions of years before their descendants first crawled on to land, researchers have discovered.

Chromosomal crossover
Timeline of human evolution
Trait (biology)
Genetically modified organism
Genetic switches control the timing and location of gene activity. When a particular switch taken from fish DNA is placed into mouse embryos, the segment can activate genes in the developing limb region of embryos, University of Chicago researchers report in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The successful swap suggests that the recipe for limb development is conserved in species separated by 400 million years of evolution.

“The genetic switches that drive the expression of genes in the digits of mice are not only present in fish, but the fish sequence can actually activate the expression in mice,” said Igor Schneider, PhD, postdoctoral researcher in the Department of Organismal Biology and Anatomy at the University of Chicago and lead author on the paper. “This tells us how the antecedents of the limb go back in time at every level, from fossils to genes.”

The genetic hunt was inspired by a famous fossil find — the 2004 discovery of the transitional fossil Tiktaalik in the Canadian Arctic by a team led by Neil Shubin of the University of Chicago. A transitional species between fish and the four-legged tetrapods, Tiktaalik possessed fins containing a skeletal structure similar to the limbs of later land-dwelling animals.

Those similarities — particularly the wrist and hand-like compartments present in the fins of Tiktaalik and its peers — inspired a laboratory experiment to look at the homology, or shared physical and genetic traits, of fish and limbed animals.

“This is really a case where knowing something about the fossils and the morphology led us to think about genetic experiments,” said Shubin, PhD, the Robert R. Bensley Professor of Organismal Biology and Anatomy and senior author of the study. “Tiktaalik and its cousins showed us that this limb compartment is not an utter novelty in tetrapods, as was thought for a long time. So an antecedent of that program must exist.”

The research team compared a genetic switch region called CsB, known to regulate limb development in humans, with similar regions in mice, chickens, frogs, and two fish species: the zebrafish and the skate. Because the last common ancestor of all these species pre-dates Tiktaalik-like “fishapods,” the comparison offered a glimpse at biology before animals made their first steps on land.

Schneider and colleagues compared the CsB regions from all five species and found that certain sequences were shared between the fish species and the tetrapods. The conservation allowed the researchers to try swapping switch sequences between species to see if they could still drive gene expression in the fin or limb. Remarkably, mouse CsB could turn on gene expression at the outer edge of the developing fin region of zebrafish, and both skate and zebrafish CsB were capable of activating gene expression in the wrist and proximal digits of the mouse limb.

“These sequences function in these organisms despite 400 million years of separation,” Schneider said. “The homologies that are perhaps not evident by morphology — just comparing a hand and a fin — can be traced back to the genome, where you find that the regulatory regions that control the making of those structures are actually present and shared between these organisms.”

The results contradict a previous finding that a developmental switch from pufferfish DNA was not capable of gene expression in the limbs of mice, suggesting that tetrapods evolved a novel developmental system. But the new experiments suggest that the genetic switch controlling limb development was in fact present deep in Earth’s evolutionary tree.

“There previously was the idea that these switches had to be generated from scratch de novo, but no, they already existed, they were already there,” said Marcelo Nobrega, MD, PhD, assistant professor of human genetics at the University of Chicago Medical Center and another author of the study. “Maybe the key was expressing a gene earlier or later or in a specific territory, but it was just a modification of a program that was already encoded in the genomes of fish almost half a billion years ago and remains there to this day.”

“These new results are actually in line with both the fossil data and the expression data,” Schneider said. “So now we can tell a story where the fossils and gene expression make sense in light of the genetic regulation.”

Future experiments will focus more closely on how the gene regulation system functions, examining the differences between the segments in fish and tetrapods that control development of either a fin or a limb. Subtle changes in the timing or location of gene expression may produce the dramatic differences in anatomy that first allowed animal life on Earth to explore land.

“There is a whole universe of questions that are opened up by this discovery,” Shubin said.

The paper, “Appendage expression driven by the Hoxd global control region is an ancient gnathostome feature,” will be published online the week of July 11 by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. In addition to Shubin, Schneider, and Nobrega, authors include Ivy Aneas and Andrew R. Gehrke of the University of Chicago, and Randall D. Dahn of Mount Desert Island Biological Lab.

Funding for the research was provided by the American Heart Association and the University of Chicago Biological Sciences Division.

CoalMiner,

I have no doubt that Evolution is a fact and will one day be escalated to the status of a scientific law. The evidence is constantly pouring in for its support despite its detractors that deny the data that is present.

Good article. I hadn’t seen that one yet. I was doing my best to explain genetic data in a layman’s terms as it is clear that many do not understand scientific terminology. Thank you for providing this article, I found it very informative.

Scientists don’t kill each other over a difference of opinion. Science is not full of excrement as you say, it has healthy debate and questions as we seek answers. I do not deny, that like all groups, religion included, that there are corrupt individuals that do things for political and social gain. That’s not the community as a whole and where to find more valid information than just the hyped up politically utilized agendas is in scientific journals.

Look at the real science, not the televised science. The media mostly only shows the negative. Rarely do you see all the good works going on; and this is true of pretty much any group. If you think science is so full of excrement, I think you should think twice about going to a doctor because they use science to treat you. Science is used to make all those processed foods most people like to eat (personally I think food science is quite flawed, some of these chemicals are not meant to be in our bodies). Science gives us pharmaceuticals, if you take any kind of non-holistic medicine you’re using science. Holistics even employ science, just a more natural (Or use it in the way nature intended form) approach instead of synthesizing it. Most of the food we eat has probably been Genetically Modified (I think they should be required to label it if it is not in the form nature gave it to us in.). Science gave us the way to make tires and other rubber products. Science built our cars, brought us electricity and developed how to process oil into fuel and other products. Most people rely on science every day without even realizing it. Science pumps waters into our homes and takes excrement from them. Computers, Tvs, video games, dvds, cds, mp3 players, all science. If modern science is full of excrement as you say I suppose you’re living completely without any of the scientific advancements. No running water, no electricity, no motor vehicle, no processed food or foods from big companies…actually you’d have to be growing your own food, agriculture is a science. Oh, but you are using modern science when you put something on a forum.

Seriously…..do you understand the English language?

It is called the T H E O R Y of Evolution. It is not called the LAW of Evolution. A LAW has been proven, a THEORY has not.

the

I do understand the English language quite well thank you. In fact I was an honor student throughout my education in English courses. I have even provided to you the definition of theory in a scientific context as words do posses different meanings within different contexts. A theory in scientific context means that there is a significant amount of testable data to support the theory. If there was not much data to support it then it would be referred to as a hypothesis.

Altaica: “The difference here is that science states what they mean and are honest as to whether something can be observed, tested or extrapolated. So many people misrepresent what the words hypothesis, theory, and law mean. In science it is very clear cut what each means.” Nice statement, but not exactly the truth. Try the mess we now have over global warming, which is perpetrated upon one of the biggest dupes ever dumped on mankind. This has happed many times throughout history, so science is not exactly the be-all-end-all that you propose it to be. Creationist do realize that there is some evolution in the course of history, but not on the scale that scientist prefer one to believe. According to science, everything is evolved from an amoeba or some other microscopic entity; that I find to be an untruth. Science has NEVER determined how the breath of life came about, let alone how the universe came into existence. Only one answer never changes–even from the mythologies (which, by the way are stories regarding the origins of man) from ancient times speaks of a Creator. And science has in now way ever debunked this. It isn’t theroy, it isn’t a hypothesis, and it isn’t a ‘law.’ It just is..so accecpt it. Too, The Creator gave man a brain and in that brain stored the capacity to develop into higher levels of human consciousness. The talents we have are God given, period. Neither is the Bible exactly stagnant; the fact that issues in Biblical times remain issues today is an indication that man has not learned what it means to live together with unconditional love. The so-called new world order is dangerous to all mankind because it is more about enslavement to a powerful government and not to the Ultimate Creator. The Words of God survive and to that end, these words serve a true purpose…lesbians, transgenders, homosexuals,heterosexuals, and all others need to accept this purpose and live by it.

CJM, why do you think the radical leftists and the LGBT community are so desperate to discount religious views and beliefs. Because as long as people have faith in a higher power their agenda is doomed. Whether the LGBT community is doing it as a result of their own convictions and to further their own agenda or the “useful idiots” serving the radical left while blindly following their masters without questioning their motives, either way religion is the one force that stands in their way and is a true, viable threat to their agendas.

Buddhists,Muslims,Jews, Christians all have higher Gods. Having a higher God doesn’t necessarily give someone more power over another. That is the way most religions are portrayed though. (I have religion so I can control you)

Rick:Because as long as people have faith in a higher power their agenda is doomed.

Hence, the commitment to eradicate Christianity, and only Christianity, from public life, and ultimately from the consciousness of the American people! Communism is like an evil but pretend step-father, who hates the adopted children, for they bear the image of the original.

CBJ:
I respect that you are very strong in your faith, however, not everyone in this country follows your God and to force your religious views on a community of many religions is wrong. Now, I agree that being enslaved to a higher power is wrong. I do not want a government telling me how to think and live my life. I want to be able to exercise my free will and make my own choices. So long as I do not harm another person’s ability to do the same I am fully within my rights as a Human Being. Now, while I hold a lot of respect for my former religion I also cannot ignore the fact that Christians are not without fault. Many try to convert and force their views on another. Christians are not the only ones that do this, I think as humans we are inclined to do this just cause we are social creatures. I can understand, you believe you have found something great, you’re excited and you want to tell the world how great this thing is. Not everyone will however agree with you. It’s the old add-age of one man’s trash is another man’s treasure And by no means am I meaning to call your beliefs trash, because they are your beliefs and only you can assess the value of your beliefs. How many times have you learned information and you truly in your heart thought it was awesome, but when you tried to share it with others they were apathetic? By no means am I saying I am without fault either. I don’t think anyone who has held a healthy debate or discussion has been able to completely stay objective. Our curiosity, or excitement, frustration, in short our emotions drive us to say and do some crazy things sometimes.

Now, back to the subject of being enslaved to a power, that is exactly what I feel the catholic church, in general, has tried to do for centuries. You cannot ignore the historical facts of countless crusades killing anyone that did not believe as they have. They forced their doctrines down people’s throats, and they didn’t just do it to non-Christians. They did it to branches of Christianity. I am not even sure if there is any major religion that is not guilty of this mentality somewhere in its past, I just have more understanding and education in Christianity so I used it as an example. Essentially the point of this is: by forcing someone to follow your religion you remove their natural right of free will to choose what they want for themselves. You enslave them to your ideals and in a sense enslave them to your God. What is right for you is not right for me. I don’t need to go in a building to worship nature. I don’t need to pay a tithe of my hard earned money just so that I can communicate with a deity through intermediaries. When I pray and give thanks in my belief I do just that. I go somewhere that I feel comfortable, I meditate and I speak from my heart. You feel you need to go to a priest and to a structured environment. I respect that. That is what is right for you. I feel I need to go for a walk in the woods, or meditate and draw or paint. That is what is right for me. I don’t need you to follow my religion to feel fulfilled and enlightened, and all I ask is that other religions not force their laws upon me. I do enjoy learning about other religions, I believe fully that knowledge can breed understanding, and that is honestly something I am striving to achieve. I want to understand people, where their views come from, why they act as they do, etc. I am fascinated with life in all its forms and seek enlightenment through an understanding of the world around me and how everyone interacts with one another.

I do not believe that the lifestyles of the GBTL is inherently wrong as you do. They are different, yes, but they are a part of nature. When I first encountered members of the community I was curious. I sought information, after all I was pretty insulated having come from small town, USA. When I began this search I didn’t have the internet, it was 20 years ago, and I didn’t even have a computer in my house. I looked for reasons and wanted to understand. As I studied and learned I found that yes in nature other animals do act in this fashion. By looking at the natural world I found that it was clearly a part of the world and was indeed natural. How could something that is natural be so wrong. I examined the belief structure I grew up with and decided that this religion was no longer appropriate to me. I moved on, took the lessons and stories that felt right to me and I learn and grow. This is a part of reasoning, to be able to experiment and find out what works and what doesn’t. I am happy on my path and happy for those that have found paths that work for them. I enjoy the road less traveled and I know sometimes the paths will cross and we will see the same way on some things.

Altaica:The theory of evolution is provable. There is proof in our DNA

Could you please elaborate professor? And I ask that it be In your own words, not copied and pasted!

Take a look at our DNA sequences and compare them with other creatures. First you have to understand that genes can be turned on and off. A gene is often turned off when it is no longer advantageous to a species.

When you look at the DNA of a human and compare it with other animals you find that we share a very large base of genes. This commonality indicates that we have a common ancestry. There is a base set of genes that are shared throughout the animal kingdom and even some plants. Nature passes on those genes that are useful and if something was previously useful it usually keeps it, but turns it off in case it may be of further use.

An example of this is the evolution of the whale. The whale evoluted from a land mammal, ambulcetus, that through the fossil record we can see gradually lost it’s limbs. Now whales do still have the genes to make limbs, and in some species they have vestigal limbs which are only used during reproduction.

Humans, have within their DNA, the genes to grow tails. We no longer need these appendages for our balance so evolution has turned this gene off. Occasionally it gets turned back on and we have humans born with tails.

In addition when you compare genomes of animals to place them into “family” groups our DNA indicates that we are of the primate group. We share over 90% of our DNA with other primates, in particular the great apes: Gorillas and Chimpanzees.

The difference between us in the other small percentage is the difference of various genes being on and off.

This is in my own words, as has most of what I have stated. If I quote something I give due credit and give you the link. You seem to infer that I cannot communicate for myself and must spout from some other source. There is more information out there on the subject, feel free to look it up yourself. I apologize to you for not being able to communicate in a way for you to better understand.

As for scientists not agreeing, in order for a principle to become generally accepted and taught within the scientific community it actually does have to go through a board of peers, a very large board that requires the majority to agree that it is a valuable point. Scientists accept that there may be conflicting views out there. Many religions have trouble accepting this concept.

I have never stated that you cannot believe in your god, nor have I stated one way or another the existence of the supernatural; only that there is no scientific evidence.

Professor, since information is a by-product of intelligence, then what is the origin of biological information? Thank you!

I thank you in advance for your response, however I will not be able to respond to it until thursday night! Sholom!

The origin of life, as in the genesis of the first single celled organisms?

That is a question of the ages. There is a lot of speculation on this part and science as of yet has not been able to find and provide facts from this time period. There are a myriad of ideas as to the base origin from extra-terrestrial sources (not just aliens fall in this category, bacteria transported from elsewhere on meteors is another hypothesis.) to creator deities. At this point as there is currently no evidence and concrete proof each individual needs to look at the world and their heart and decide for themselves what answer they believe. As there is no concrete proof one way or another feel that each theory, whether scientific or religious is equally valid, which is why I feel each individual needs to decide what is right in their heart based on their own reasoning.

If it can’t be directly observed and tested then I can not consider it a fact. This is why I am not an atheist, because where the evidence stops I must make my own choice, and choose what i believe. A belief in something does not make something a fact, however, because facts require physical, tangible, observable information. I have not found any religion to have such things to the origin of the first life on the planet nor has science shown where those first organisms came from as of yet.

As humans we want to quantify and find answers to everything. That is where our faiths come into play. A pattern that is broken is frustrating to us, so we fill in the gaps with what we think may be the answer and go with that.

You have chosen God to fill in these gaps, I have chosen The Great Spirit (Also referred to as the Great Creator.) And also the idea of the Universe and The Force (this is a Shinto principle, George Lucas borrowed it from that religion, which is very old.) There are similarities between most religions, I have found in my research, and I consider each one a path. Each person must choose which path to walk for themselves. As there is no testable data, no repeatable experiences, only the self and their experiences each path is equally valid.

So, you see, I feel there is a place for religion and faith, I feel it is important, but I don’t feel it should be forced onto others. We as people are different. We each have our own personalities and ideas so we need to be free to choose what is right for us. Only the individual knows what feels right to them. I respect that you believe in your God and you feel he is right for you, but God is not right for me. By reading the stories about your creator I have felt pushed away from that belief structure. In my youth I felt that was the right path, but as I walked through life other paths presented themselves; I chose to walk a different one, one that was far older and held the principles that made sense to me.

Freedom of religion is something very valuable to me. The constitution and bill of rights is also very dear to me. I enjoy being able to have open discussions without fear that the government will swoop down on us and shut us down, and you better believe I will fight for my rights. I also believe that our laws should be easy to find and easy to understand. If ignorance of the law is no excuse then why do they make it so hard to find all the laws and understand them?

Altaica:The origin of life, as in the genesis of the first single celled organisms?

Jay: Not the origin of life, that’s a separate issue. The origin of information, which is necessary prior to organic life. Even with ready-made and available material, without specific and complex information, (dna), organic life would not be possible. Information is a by-product of intelligence. There is no other source!

Altica: That is a question of the ages. There is a lot of speculation on this part and science as of yet has not been able to find and provide facts from this time period.

Jay: Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps science is a inadequate tool by which to determine origin of life? Since creation, or evolution, are not repeatable, science is at a loss.

Altaica:There are a myriad of ideas as to the base origin from extra-terrestrial sources (not just aliens fall in this category, bacteria transported from elsewhere on meteors is another hypothesis.) to creator deities.

Jay: Regardless of the myriad of theories regarding the origin of biological life, all theories, apart from the creation theory, presuppose ready-made and available material for life, and life. These theories, whichever one may espouse, or hold as true, do not rightly deal with origin of life. By origin of life, i mean origin of finite-life, which includes all life, which includes the origin of our universe. For the term finite implies; prior to something, there was nothing. So, if our universe is finite, which science confirms, then what is the cause of our universe? The cause of our finite universe and finite life cannot be finite, the cause, therefore, must be in-finite, meaning, always WAS, no beginning! Otherwise, you are in essence stating: That nothing, made something, this off course is scientifically and logically absurd!

Altaica:At this point as there is currently no evidence and concrete proof each individual needs to look at the world and their heart and decide for themselves what answer they believe.
As there is no concrete proof one way or another feel that each theory, whether scientific or religious is equally valid, which is why I feel each individual needs to decide what is right in their heart based on their own reasoning.

If it can’t be directly observed and tested then I can not consider it a fact. This is why I am not an atheist, because where the evidence stops I must make my own choice, and choose what i believe. A belief in something does not make something a fact, however, because facts require physical, tangible, observable information. I have not found any religion to have such things to the origin of the first life on the planet nor has science shown where those first organisms came from as of yet.
As humans we want to quantify and find answers to everything. That is where our faiths come into play. A pattern that is broken is frustrating to us, so we fill in the gaps with what we think may be the answer and go with that.

You have chosen God to fill in these gaps, I have chosen The Great Spirit (Also referred to as the Great Creator.) And also the idea of the Universe and The Force (this is a Shinto principle, George Lucas borrowed it from that religion, which is very old.) There are similarities between most religions, I have found in my research, and I consider each one a path. Each person must choose which path to walk for themselves. As there is no testable data, no repeatable experiences, only the self and their experiences each path is equally valid.

Jay: All paths are equally valid ? Careful now, you could be opening a pandoras box, as some feel that their chosen path is not only equal to all, but superior to all. What about paths that are destructive and destabilize society, such as; Islam? Satanism? Eugenics? Homosexuality? Pedophilia? Polygamy? ect..

Altaica: So, you see, I feel there is a place for religion and faith, I feel it is important, but I don’t feel it should be forced onto others.

Jay: How do you equate belief in a creative being with religion? What is your definition of religion? The standard and anaemic definition seems to be, one who believes in a supernatural being. Could one be considered religious who doesn’t believe in a supernatural being? If not, what then, is a world view? Is it not how one defines reality?

Altaica: We as people are different. We each have our own personalities and ideas so we need to be free to choose what is right for us. Only the individual knows what feels right to them.

Jay: Do you mean in terms of reality?

Altaica: I respect that you believe in your God and you feel he is right for you, but God is not right for me. By reading the stories about your creator I have felt pushed away from that belief structure.

Jay: Just so you are not confused, or misunderstand me, I am not trying to convert you, nor am I proselytizing. However, I do strongly believe that the LGBT are doing exactly that, and going to great lengths, which include, a state enforced, and state funded imposition of their lifestyle through the education curriculum. Is this not in essence, proselytizing? Pushing one’s belief, or lifestyle/religion on someone?

Altaica: In my youth I felt that was the right path, but as I walked through life other paths presented themselves; I chose to walk a different one, one that was far older and held the principles that made sense to me.

Jay: Care to share the path you chose?

Altaica:Freedom of religion is something very valuable to me.

Jay: I too value freedom from religion. Off course, you and I do not hold the same definition of what is, religion? I am of the opinion, that every single human being on the planet, is religious, but not all believe in a supernatural being.

Altaica:The constitution and bill of rights is also very dear to me. I enjoy being able to have open discussions without fear that the government will swoop down on us and shut us down, and you better believe I will fight for my rights. I also believe that our laws should be easy to find and easy to understand. If ignorance of the law is no excuse then why do they make it so hard to find all the laws and understand them?

Jay: If this is indeed true, then why is the government enforcing, through law, that the homosexual lifestyle be part of the education’s curriculum? Have you not in essence, contradicted yourself?

Jay says:
July 21, 2011 at 8:32 pm
Jay: Not the origin of life, that’s a separate issue. The origin of information, which is necessary prior to organic life. Even with ready-made and available material, without specific and complex information, (dna), organic life would not be possible. Information is a by-product of intelligence. There is no other source!
Altaica: The Earth came first; there is no doubt about that in anyone’s mind. On the Earth there were a myriad of elements. These elements make up everything in our world. In time these elements interacted and combined with one another. When a combination was found stable the elements remained in this new complex system. Over time they formed the basis of our first life forms. Scientists have actually begun creating life through the base elements. I recently read an article on this, I don’t recall which publication it was in, most likely popular science or Nat geo as those two are the most readily available to me, but I do also read articles from a myriad of sources.
Jay: Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps science is a inadequate tool by which to determine origin of life? Since creation, or evolution, are not repeatable, science is at a loss.
Altaica: No, I do not think science is an inadequate tool. Evolution through natural selection is readily observable in our fossil record and even in the living world. The finches of the Galapagos is a classic and easily demonstrate able example. In addition to this classic example there are a myriad of examples just by looking at the health industry. Pharmaceutical companies develop a medicine to combat a certain microbe, we take said medicine, in time the microbe becomes resistant to said medicine and we have to start all over again. While it is not good for us that the microbe is developing this resistance, to the species it is advantageous because the goal of all species is survival. Microbiology may well have provided us with the largest pool of readily observable adaptations. Given all the evidence, I cannot ignore science as a valid tool.
The new studies on creation that I read really did surprise me. While evolution after that first initial life form was full of visible evidence, no-where in any source, religious, scientific or otherwise had performed an experiment that demonstrated the creation of a living organism from the basis of only the periodic table of elements. This is a very new science and very new studies, and I must say I was quite surprised when I read the article about this. I intend to keep my ears open for any more of these experiments on this very perplexing and hotly debated subject.

Jay: Regardless of the myriad of theories regarding the origin of biological life, all theories, apart from the creation theory, presuppose ready-made and available material for life, and life. These theories, whichever one may espouse, or hold as true, do not rightly deal with origin of life. By origin of life, i mean origin of finite-life, which includes all life, which includes the origin of our universe. For the term finite implies; prior to something, there was nothing. So, if our universe is finite, which science confirms, then what is the cause of our universe? The cause of our finite universe and finite life cannot be finite, the cause, therefore, must be in-finite, meaning, always WAS, no beginning! Otherwise, you are in essence stating: That nothing, made something, this off course is scientifically and logically absurd!
Altaica: The creation of our universe is a completely different matter entirely from evolution. New studies suggest the Universe is infinite, while other studies show that it is infinite. This is all the territory of physics and on this topic I cannot really speak to the information either side has on this topic. Chemistry and Biology I get, physics, quite honestly, most of the time confuses the hell out of me. I do know that there is a debate within the scientific community towards whether the Universe as always been here or if it is finite now. That is a debate I will leave to the physicists. Now, the problem most argued about the creation theory is also the same you make on the physicists theory, you presuppose there was an infinite. I have often wondered in my child hood, when I was more philosophical, who created God? I believe currently that neither physics nor religion have irrefutable proof to defend their claims to the creation of all things. What this means is each person needs decide for themselves which theory they want to use. In your case you have chosen God and as that is what you understand and know you defend this stance. A physicist will do the same with their branch of science. Personally Physics confuses the hell out of me, and Biology, Chemistry, and Math don’t really deal with this topic. While I am sure if I understood Physics I would see valid points, they are just as split on this topic as religions are. How do I approach this then? Well, I know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That is a proven law. Since I know this I know that energy is the infinite, therefore to follow this, than energy is the creator of all things. This particular view allows me to follow both my scientific mind and my spiritual heart. Do I think that a Physicist’s view is scientifically and intellectually absurd? No. Do I understand it? Barely, I try to, but I just can’t wrap my mind around it. As for religion, while there are some similarities, there are also so many differences between them. So how can any one religion say they are one hundred percent right? They can’t. There are even more splits and arguments based on religious belief than on scientific belief. So how do I suggest we deal with this? Well, as there are so many choices we are pretty much consumers of a product. Some people like coke, others prefer pepsi. Pretty much, you choose which one you like. Sometimes, as we age, we decide that we like something else better, so we switch to that one. This is a pretty simple analogy, but one I think is explains that religion is a choice. We choose what one we want to follow based on our tastes so to speak.
Jay: All paths are equally valid ? Careful now, you could be opening a pandoras box, as some feel that their chosen path is not only equal to all, but superior to all. What about paths that are destructive and destabilize society, such as; Islam? Satanism? Eugenics? Homosexuality? Pedophilia? Polygamy? ect..
Altaica: Ok, first let us be clear that by path here I mean religion. Eugenics, homosexuality, pedophilia and polygamy are not religions. They do not qualify under the blanket of this discussion. Sticking solely to religion, Islam and Satanism (Which is actually considered a Christian branch by theologians because Satan is a figure that is detailed in the Bible and not present in other religions) are the two you bring up. Now speaking from my studies on Muslims and my education, I have not read their Quran yet; generally speaking the religion itself is not intended to be destructive nor to destabilize society. I have found from my studies of the Abrahamic religions that all three think they are superior to everyone else. I have seen atrocities committed throughout history and even in our modern times by all three branches. I don’t believe that any of the Abrahamic religions are inherently destructive, however some people are fanatics and believe in forcing their views on others. The religion itself is not bad, it’s the act of forcing it upon another human being that is. Did you know that we have had Muslims in the United States as long as we have had Christians? Many of the Africans forced into slavery were Muslim. The three branches of Abrahamic traditions have long since fought with one another over who is right and who is wrong. We have countless crusades instigated by the Christians, we have Jyhads by the Muslims, and the Jewish community has their Zionists who believe that if one person in a community does something they don’t like that they should bomb not only them but their neighbors and friends. (And this is actually happening right now in the fights over the gaza strip, as I have been informed by an airforce official.) Does this make all jews bad? No, it makes those that are forcing their belief structure on another bad. Most Muslims don’t want to be in a war, neither do most Jews and most Christians. It’s the extremists that make it look bad. Now when I say that are paths are equally valid this is with the understanding that you may believe what you want so long as you do no harm to another human in the process. This means if you want to follow Satan, Allah, Yahweh, God, The Great Spirit, the Universe, Kali-Ma, or the teachings of the Buddha that you have a right to do so if you feel right for you, but you should never do any action that will harm another human as they have this same right. The moment you harm another human you are now outside religion and firmly within the violation of a law. As natural law is that we all have a right to life, any action resulting in the loss of life or hindrance to this natural law, that is something that humans as a whole instinctually know; then you are to be held accountable, as an individual, for this violation.
If I would go by your logic of believing that the acts of some indicates the religion as a whole then I would have to exclude many religions from the right to practice, which most definitely would include all three Abrahamic branches. In actuality by that belief there would be very few religions that would be allowed at all. Buddhists and Taoists, and only Hindi that follow a pacifistic deity would be innocent of not getting into a war where they tried to force their religion’s views on another. Pretty much those are the only religions that I can think of that have not harmed another’s right to life In the name of their religion.
Now the other thing you mention: “Eugenics? Homosexuality? Pedophilia? Polygamy?” These are ways of life or acts and need to be looked at by whether or not they harm another’s natural right to life in anyway. First, Eugenics. Eugenics is most definitely a violation of this law as it firmly takes away the life other human beings. This is against most people’s laws. Homosexuality: People are born to this. This is a sexual preference that they have, just like you and I are born to be attracted to the opposite sex. In general this is something that affects the individual. Whether they prefer their sex or the opposite sex this does no harm to another person’s life. Now, just as hetereosexuals are punished for raping someone the same should also hold true in this case. This is merely a sexual preference and should be treated as such. I find men with auburn hair attractive, I am sure there are physical features you find attractive in women. That’s all this is, nothing more. Next Pedophilia: This is a clear violation of the life of a child. A child is not mature enough to decide what they want in a relationship, and if they haven’t been through puberty shouldn’t even be involved in this. Again this one is a clear cut violation of natural law. Polygamy: That one is not a violation of natural law, only societal laws. This is not a lifestyle I would chose for myself, but if three or more individuals choose by their free will to have relations with one another they are not harming anyone else’s right to life. This is not a violation of natural law as there is no detriment to others. It’s actually common in nature, and there are also species, it’s a jungle bird, but I can’t remember its name right now; that practice polyandry (One female, many males). So, while you and I do not find it right for us, unless the laws of the country say otherwise, it is their choice.
Altaica: So, you see, I feel there is a place for religion and faith, I feel it is important, but I don’t feel it should be forced onto others.
Jay: How do you equate belief in a creative being with religion? What is your definition of religion? The standard and anaemic definition seems to be, one who believes in a supernatural being. Could one be considered religious who doesn’t believe in a supernatural being? If not, what then, is a world view? Is it not how one defines reality?
I generally equate religion with a belief/Faith in the intangible, i.e. supernatural. I classify creator deities in this category along with ghosts, spirits, etc. I also consider a religion to generally consist of or have consisted of a group of people with similar views and a set of established beliefs and worship practices. I consider intangible something that cannot be actively measured, or touched or experienced by the majority. Supernatural experiences can’t be quantified beyond those involved. I also see religion as something/someone that is worshiped, generally with the belief that doing such will provide some form of reward to the individual doing the worshipping. This is usually a deity of some sort, but there are religions based around objects. I think the most complete definition I can put into words is that religion is the belief and worship of something, whether it be an object or a being; that follows a general set of established traditions based around that something.

Jay: Do you mean in terms of reality?
Altaica: In terms of answering the questions we have that can not be answered by usual human means, i.e. that which our logic and academics can’t explain.

Jay: Just so you are not confused, or misunderstand me, I am not trying to convert you, nor am I proselytizing. However, I do strongly believe that the LGBT are doing exactly that, and going to great lengths, which include, a state enforced, and state funded imposition of their lifestyle through the education curriculum. Is this not in essence, proselytizing? Pushing one’s belief, or lifestyle/religion on someone?

Altaica: I think it is pushing a sexual orientation, but not a religion. I think if we as heterosexuals are going to teach about our sexual orientation I feel we should also teach about the others. We can’t assume that the wiring in everyone’s brains is the same in regards to what we consider a potential mate. I do believe this law is intellectually dishonest; they only want to teach the good, you can’t teach history honestly without teaching both the good and bad. I also believe that unless it was that lifestyle that drove them to perform the historical act it has no place in a history class. After I read the law for myself and saw the wording I feel it is an inappropriate law. To me the place for information about other sexual orientations belong in the sexual education classes and should be taught to those going through puberty to make them aware of the changes in their bodies and so that they have an understanding and are provided with a place to go to ask questions in the event that their parents don’t want to discuss it with them. Sadly so many parents do not take part in their child’s education, either because they are working so much to support their family and don’t have the time, that they just don’t know how or plainly that they are just poor parents and don’t care. Each situation is different, but I do know, that sadly there is not communication between a lot of youth and their parents. Discussing different sexual orientations has no place in a curriculum until the age of puberty, in my opinion.
Jay: Care to share the path you chose?
Altaica: Yes, I follow the nature based religion of the Native Americans. I am a Biologist, but I am also an apprentice Shaman. I do believe as you do in a creator deity; The Great Spirit. I actually happen to believe in the supernatural because of my experiences, but I can’t prove them to anyone. I believe in spirits, I believe in ghosts. I believe in reincarnation and past lives. I don’t believe in a fiery hell, but I do believe in an underworld where our spirits may spend some time. I believe we all have a piece of the divine in us. I pretty much don’t believe that anything is inherently good or evil but has the capacity to do either and it is the acts one performs and their impact on others that determine these things. I do also take aspects of other religions that fit the same paradigm. I do believe in the good works of Jesus of Nazareth, to me I see him as a Great shaman, perhaps one of the most celebrated shamans along with The Buddha. He himself said greater works than I you will do yourself. Many of the acts her performed are also skills a shaman can learn. I have also found that there is pretty much a shamanic type in most religions, my teacher, a Christian Shaman, has taught me much about other religions. She is actually a theologian and very well versed.
Jay: I too value freedom from religion. Off course, you and I do not hold the same definition of what is religion? I am of the opinion, that every single human being on the planet, is religious, but not all believe in a supernatural being.
Altaica: That is a valid point. I think you may have something there. I think humans in general want to believe in something, so they naturally look for something that they can latch onto. I have actually watched a show on how belief is wired into our brains as a survival mechanism. I guess it is something of our nature that most of us need to feel complete.
Jay: If this is indeed true, then why is the government enforcing, through law, that the homosexual lifestyle be part of the education’s curriculum? Have you not in essence, contradicted yourself?
Altaica: I don’t feel I have, but it may appear so. I think there is a place for discussion of it, but I think they are misguided as to where. It belongs in Sexual Education classes, not history. Perhaps in Human Anatomy or Biology classes, but I think they are pushing things too far. It certainly doesn’t belong in any curriculum involve pre-pubescent youth. This bill as it is written is asinine. I don’t agree with it. If their sexual orientation drove them to commit the historical act, yes it should be mentioned. If it had nothing to do with it, it is as irrelevant and belongs in non-public school texts as trivia. I don’t want to pick up a history book and read blah was homosexual and invented this and blah was heterosexual and invented this. It’s unnecessary filler.

Now, I can see if an advancement was made in prosthetics because a transgender invented functioning prosthetic parts because she felt she was a male and wanted to be whole, that makes sense, that explains the motivation behind the invention. I don’t think many historical facts are driven by the sexual orientation of the individual no matter which way they go. If they didn’t drive the act they have no importance in the curriculum.

Push comes to shove,

If you had actually read what I wrote I already stated that I am neither an atheist or an agnostic. Christianity and Judeism are not the only religions that hold the sexes equally. And if they truly did then why do we see so much inequality between the sexes in governments ruled by these religions? Why was it ok for a husband to beat his wife? Why is it ok for a man to kill his wife if he even suspects she is an adulterer? Why is a woman punished by her hand being chopped off if she tries to break up a fight between her husband and another man and grabs their crotch? There are so many questions I have.

There is a lot of inequality in your religion historically. If you are so equal why do you omit Lilith from many of your teachings? Why isn’t Mary Magdelin given her proper place as a disciple of Jesus? Why do so many branches of your religion deny women the priesthood? Why has there been not one single female pope?

The only answer I can see is that Christianity favors a patriarchy. Males are in control. It is far from equal. This is how your religion has acted for centuries. This is how many branches still act. Preach love and practice hate, that is what I have seen and experienced. The hypocrisies in the bible, the hypocrisies of many people within the religion, these are the reason I walked away from the religion.

As for my beliefs, I don’t follow your God. I don’t want to follow a god who condones rape and incest (See the story about Lot), the killing of everyone, man woman and child in a city. (Numbers is a good section for this.) And a large number of other atrocities. No loving creator would want for his children to do this. Killing your neighbors is very contrary to love thy neighbor.

The stories I have read in the bible demonstrate a jealous, wrathful god. The way the Bible reads it is like we are his pit bulls and he’s testing his dogs in various fights. If you want to follow such a cruel master, go ahead and be his faithful hound, his, flock of sheep. Take your beatings like a good pit bull. Fight for your master. That’s your choice, and I respect that. I love you as a living creature regardless.

Aho!

And I do notice constantly in this discussion alone that I have brought up biblical text, areas where this information can be found. You seem to constantly want to ignore the issue and try to distract from any real attempt at education. Where in the Bible are the apologies for killing thousands upon thousands of people? Why would a loving, benevolent god decide he didn’t like his creations anymore and picked out his favorites and drowned all the rest? It’s kind of like a kid deciding he doesn’t like most of his pets so he flushes them down the toilet.

I’ll stick with the religion that matches my beliefs, thanks. I’m not a big fan of hypocrisy. I get enough of it at work, I don’t need hypocrisy in my faith as well.

Contrary to your beliefs you can have a faith and not be part of the Abrahamic traditions. There are religions that have been around far longer then yours and that are a lot more honest.

Religion is all about control, plain and simple.

Bottom line is…you choose what you want to believe,so you have none to blame but yourself for making the choice.-CC.

As much as we has humans like to think we are the only animals capable of reason, a large amount of higher mammals also use reason. Dolphins and chimpanzees just to name a couple.

Yeah…when is the last time you observed one of these species modifying its environment in order to live more happily.That is why people like you lack the ability to reason correctly.You see things and think you know the answers based on academic standards,when you are just as clueless as anyone else is.-CC.

CC-

Chimpanzees modify their environment by making nests. Beavers modify their environment, and are second only to us in destructive power. There is a beaver damn in Canada so large it can be seen on Satellite images. Beavers can turn a creek into a lake. Ants modify their environment, although their ability to reason is fairly limited. Ants build amazing colonies, engage in agriculture and if you study the leaf cutter ant can defoliate large tracts of forest. There is another species of ant that does this with grass. Termites modify their environment, architects have marveled and studied the Termite mounds of Africa. They have garbage dumps, air conditioning, nurseries, etc.

I think the appropriate difference that could be used to differentiate humans that you may be searching for is that unlike the rest of the animal kingdom humans constantly battle their instincts and create complex moral codes to keep instincts that would be detrimental to a society at bay. Which, come to think about meerkats and chimps do this on a limited basis. They will ostracize traitors, expel those that aren’t good for their community based on their standards. Hmmm, but I do think that our capacity for complex morals rivals most creatures.

I do know something we as humans do that I haven’t seen in some species in the wild, we write out languages down. While many species have complex chemical and oral languages we are the only species I am aware of that has a written language. I think the other thing that sets us apart as a species is our belief in that, as a whole, our species believes it has a right to everything. We think we are far to superior to any thing else in nature. Instead of remaining in balance and taking only what we need we live in excess. We have caused the extinction of countless species of animal. I don’t really think that is what was meant by guardianship of the Earth that is mentioned in the bible. If you are the caretaker of something and you go out and destroy it you’re a poor caretaker. If you hired someone to watch over your house and you came home and some of your pets were dead, there was trash all over the living room, furniture was smashed and it looked like a wild party had been through we would fire that person. I would venture to say that most Americans would also sue for damages. If Adam and Eve were the caretakers of the planet hired by God and we are the inheritors of the family business so to speak I think we are in for a pretty big cosmic lawsuit, because we have made one hell of a mess and killed a lot of “pets” in this big house we call Earth.

Hmm, that’s the circular logic I have been warned about. Impressive. In case you missed the point, I neither stated one way or another the existence of your god, merely the lack of scientific evidence one way or another. Without such evidence it is solely up to the individual to decide which belief works best for them in the lack of concrete evidence.

Could you possibly mean like evolution?Y’know the part about natural selection.The one where one mutation survives and the fossil records of those that didnt work out dont exsist?Yeah…that one.Funny how the whole impetus of evolution is natural selection yet fossils from those species which were not selected do not appear in the record.How is that?Please explain.-CC.

cawmen: I don’t think you really understand the principles and science of evolution. I highly suggest if you actually do want to learn to pick up a science book, read some articles in an accrediated scientific journal and/ or attend a semester of college Biology.

Now by Natural Selection when one species develops an aspect that is advantageous it will be passed on to the next generation. Over time more and more members of that species will have that trait because it gave those that developed it an edge and they were able to survive and procreate. In time you will end up with two populations, one with the original trait and one with the new trait. Now evolution takes a long time, so it will take a while before the species diverges significantly from the original. As long as both designs are viable to survival both will persist. (you can see this today in Africa where you have cheetahs, lions, and leopards. All are members of the cat family and descended from a common ancestor, but all have different adaptations for their survival.)

Now, if the two strains of creature are competing for the same food source and niche, one species will inevitably push the other out of existence. We can easily see this in our fossil record by studying the different layers. As you start at the bottom and work your way up you can clearly see relationships of species, an overlap for a time and then the disappearance of one of the species. You will see overlap as each phase is tested.

Pelosi, Hitler in high heels!

Jay,
Geeze i gotta teach all of you guys spelling!! It’s PEE-LOUSY!!!!

Ooooh! ZINGER!! LMAO

WOW!!!!!!!!!! I can’t quit laughing!!!!!!!!!!

AJM,
BADDA-BING!!!!!

Are you saying that you are the arbitor of which parents are good and which are not? Or, are you advocating that some faceless bureaucrat would be in charge of determining that? Since you seem to be such an expert at understanding what a “good” parent is, would you kindly explain your parameters? And, what exactly are you basing your expert child rearing experience on?

So, if you (or your govt proxy) determine that a parent is not teaching “correct” values that you have chosen, then the govt should re-educate them properly. Is this your plan? I seem to recall this kind of thing in Communist China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Nazi Germany and a whole host of other venues.

Teach children reading, writing and arithmetic in school, leave the morality for home.

It seems that way, Jeep…after all, her lesbian friends make really terrific parents. Guess the heterosexuals among us need to have more government intervention so they will become the robots the officials demand. Of course, teachers whine an awful lot about being paid for babysitting–sure don’t know why since they don’t teach.

And don’t forget the most important thing! Her homosexual friends are all great decorators and fix houses up really nice, making the neighborhoods much nicer!

Karolyn: Well, it sure doesn’t seem like a lot of parents are doing the job!

Communist goal #41:Emphasize raising children away from the “negative” influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, learning problems and retarding of children to the suppressive influence of parents.

There you go Joe’ you just proved Karolyns point that is if they where gay then that wouldn’t of happened.

LOL!!!

Good to have you back Joyce

oooohhh…icky…brothers and sisters loving “on” each other…now that’s perverted!

Not in her eyes and mind. To her, it’s perfectly “natural” and, one could reasonably believe, “desirous” to her.

Didn’t Jesus advocate “love they neighbor as theyself.” And we absolutely are all brothers nd sisters, especially following the biblical view of how humankind came to be. Adam and Eve and then incest between them and their children.

Blasphemer, your trying to GOD’s word against us, aren’t you? GOD also state ‘man shall not lay with man, nor woman with woman’, and the homosexuality is an abomination unto him.

Chew on those words. Not one person here that i have read advocates ridding our society of these people, just don’t flaunt your choice in our faces, and the above article shows they are flaunting it in our face.

I need a T-shirt that reads “Straight and Proud” (front) Hetro pride (back) to wear on my next trip to California and maybe i’ll stop in old San Fran and flaunt it in thier face. I am not worried, i carry a big stick (bad joke).

Speaking the truth is not blasphemy.What did Karolyn say that wasn’t true?

Karolyn: Didn’t Jesus advocate “love they neighbor as theyself.” And we absolutely are all brothers nd sisters, especially following the biblical view of how humankind came to be. Adam and Eve and then incest between them and their children.

Jesus also warned:
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe (in me) to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.” (Mark 9:42)

Karolyn, pick up a bible, read Genesis, and never make another stupid remark like that again. Get some knowledge.

Hey, stop all the they do this they do that. People who are productive members of society all do those things as well.

If it is put in the text books why not just put behind every person name mentioned in the book in Parenthesis (GAY), (Striaght), (Bisexual), etc. , because if this is to be tuaght then i want my children to know that there are not many and that a hetero lifestyle is GODs plan. Also to when children ask why the keep seeing striaght behind someones name we can tell what California(cation) did. THen i hope he asks how come i don’t see any that say gay, and i will tell him because the if any of the people in our history were they were ashamed because they knew it was not GODs way.

I kinda rambled but you get my point.

Exactly. If someone has made an important contribution, then why isn’t it enough to just give the name? That’s what they do if the person is straight, after all. Besides, do they want to remembered for their contributions or for their sexual persuasion?

Of course, the answer is obvious.

Sure they do. They say what religion they are and if they are Married. If there is a black inventor that is mentioned,if a women is an astronaut it will say so. If a student is in a club or team and has a disability that is mentioned in reference to how he overcame his disability. Now gays might soon be equal if they are allowed to have in print saying they are married instead of hiding from the Conservatives. When I was in school I thought everything was invented in America which is the farthest thing from the truth. It’s fine to feel good about ones nation but a little more honesty is in order.

Karolyn,
give me one example of that!!!

Red Bank, NJ

Karolyn,
Now, there were no heteroes involved at all in this? ALL involved were gay?? I don’t think so!!

Joe – They were the first to take the chance by buying blighted properties and rehabbing them. They started the ball rolling and began opening small shops which led to Red Bank becoming more of a tourist destination on the way to the Jersey shore. It’s always the artists who cause this type of renaissance, and gays tend to be artists.

If the liberal progressive mind cant see it then how would the illegals!

CC and JeffH – The problem with making this an elective is that it would allow us to make personal choices. The commie liberals don’t believe in allowing opting in or out of their programs, because they know that if they did, few would agree to it.

The only way they can force their ideas on us is by…well, FORCE.

Kate8 …ain’t that the truth.

CC Good one!

If there is an issue,then how can fact be established?Your contradictory slip is showing Doc.-CC.

If you ever thought there was a time to stand up and fight, its now.
No I won’t be lead to believe that the “fact” that homosexuality exists makes it normal.

Xmarine,
Murderers exhist but that don’t mean it’s normal! Molesters exhist, but that don’t mean it’s normal! Rapists exhist but that don’t mean they’re normal! Progs exhist………….!

Joe H. – Just wait…that’s coming, too.

Whacked out theories are normal to some and abhorrent to others.

Doc.. take off your high heels for a momment, put away your lip stick and return to the planet… The fact is a faggot is a faggot no matter how you dress it and that doesn’t mean that you have to force it upon me or anyone else.

On the Raggs,
Are you on that monthly cycle?

coal miner,
I don’t htink raggs is, but I’d bet good money YOU are!!!

That gives new meaning to say Raggs is on the rag. That’s been his normal mode for the last 2 years.

Joe its good to have you back!And eddie

K, being a bit mean spirited today are we? You’re revealing yourself to be a hypocrit.

Well, Jeff, you do it all the time. What’s good for the goose….. Mean-spiritedness, prejudice, and bigotry tend to bring out that part of me, though I do try not to buy in. I am only human.

Well Karolyn, at least I’m not confused about who I am or what I believe in and, unlike you, I certainly don’t consider myself contradictive or a hypocrit. I’m consistent day in and day out. I can be swayed and change my mind on issues just like most prople can because i can differentiate “good from bad”. I just don’t advocate the “do as I say, not as I do” mentality.

Well said, JeffH.

Karolyn will defend deviant’s right to overrule parental choice, but will not defend people’s right to choose what they want to expose or indoctrinate their children into.

It’s always a one-way street with libs, championing anything that is outside traditonal moral values.

Kate 8, isn’t that the truth. Karolyn is a piece of work. What else can you say.

kAROLYN,

Time for me to chime in afer reading all the posts so far, you are so avid about this that one must assume you are either GAY or you hae a close relative who is. What ever the case, my personal experience with someone who is gay is that he made a personal choice in his life to live that lifestyle. I have know him since we were little children, our parents are good friends to this day.

This man fought with me over girls (younger years), and dated and was sexually active with his fiance (a woman). He chose to end that relationship, he chose to move to San Francisco (later returning to Texas) and chose to have promiscous sex with many different men, as well as get caught in drugs (i believe because of the angst over his choice).

His lifestyle was a choice, and i believe for many more they made the same choice because it was taboo, not in spite of it.

Now agrue with me on the point, as i have first hand knowledge. Oh and by the way even though he would not admit it to anyone else i know he was sexually molested in his early years, and i suspect that may be the case for most of the LGBT, if not all.

I have known many gay and lesbian people in my life, and not one has ever mentioned being sexually molested even though they were close friends with me and we shared our deepest secrets. Why would someone choose a “lifestyle” with so much pain involved? My friends have said that they knew they were different when they were little; however, they all tried to be straight, but it didn’t work because it wasn’t who they were. It’s not easy living a conflicted life. The people I have known have all maintained long-term monogamous relationships. I knew a male and female couple who married and had a child, but after 2 years, she finally admitted that she was gay. That happens quite often. Very often gays can do very well as heteros; however, living a lie is too much for many of them. Personally, I believe that there are more bisexual people than would admit to, especially among women. My gay and lesbian friends have been some of the best people I have ever met; and they are Christians!! As I’ve mentioned before, a dear gay friend is also a Christian conservative with whom I’ve had many “discussions” over politics.

I accept all people, no matter what their sexual preference, mental abilities, race, religion, etc. They are all members of the human race, and as such are a part of me.

I believe being is a choice, just like i choose not give in to the urge to oogle or flirt with many women, but instead chose to love and honor my wife, my son, and my savior. It is in the very nature and soul of man (and woman) to propagate the species, and homosexuality goes deeply against that nature. You cannot tell me ‘it’s a choice’ when our very nature becons to the opposite sex. That my friend is the only natural and ‘born with’ nature that man has.

The gays that claim to be Christians are living a lie. As Christians we are not under the law but in Romans 3:20 by the law is the knowledge of sin, thus Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is abomination. Romans 1:26-27 for even their woman did change the natural use into that which is against nature, and likewise also men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly. So, Old and New Testaments, unnatural sex is a sin. Jesus died once for ALL to cleanse us of our sins, you must believe and choose not to sin, but in our weakness we all sin in some instances, a Christian does not live in constant sin and beat their chest and tell the world that they are living in sin and want their lifestyle taught in school.

100% of all Christians live in sin and it’s a daily struggle to avoid further sin. Whether a business decision that might hurt customers,a wrong decision in bringing up your child,having an affair or inappropriate flirting,lying about something that never happened. Oh the list could be long. Do you brag about your child when the Bible says not to boast? Christian arrogance can be just as sinful as a Christian denying that he is one.

Well sorry, but that IS the way it is.

Karolyn. Sorry you get hammered so much on here. You may have best intentions for your “problem” to be accepted, but facts are facts, and your “problem” still remains as not acceptable to 95+% of the public.
It’s one thing to want others to accept you as you are, and I do accept you as a fellow human being, but I don’t want young children to be educated in your “Life Style”.
Where would it stop? What is education?
Suppose you had children in a public school, in a Govenmental type of class. How would the subject be taught? Glossing over the subject, or some detail? Maybe charts, pictures, storys?
How would you teach the alternative life style? Glossing over the subject, or with charts, pictures, storys?
Sounds like porn to me, and with those actions, I would expect teachers to be charged with a crime, and jailed.
Argue with me HOW, or why, that wouldn’t be the case.
You are being simple by not contemplating to whole picture.

You liberal “people” (personally I prefer the term “ingrate”) are offensive to me. Therefore, I am going to pursue a legal course of action that will force you to see my viewpoint. I will concurrently make an all out effort to have a particular course mandated within our school system that will force your child to learn the history of the contributions made to this country by like-minded conservative individuals. Conservatives have been maligned, libeled, diparaged and otherwise persecuted without remorse from the left for many years. I can name many strong conservatives who have had thier accomplishments swept under, vilified and just plain misrepresented. This brave minority deserves recognition, and the left is in dire need of some reeducation on the facts.

I would think that such “open-minded” people like karolyn, doc and eddie would welcome this viewpoint, and I would think you would support my effort to get all viewpoints out in the open…er…out of the closet, as it were. After all, it’s about not hiding knowledge, right? So, let’s hear it for Regan, Cheney, Limbaugh, Drudge, Palin, Ailes, Ryan, Roberts and others who have contributed much to our great nation.

Jeep,
Thank you for the list, it will keep me amused for the rest of the day.

You’re certainly welcome, Doc. However, I take it that you are not supporting those who are different because you do not like their ideology? Clearly they are in the minority, and I always thought big libs liked the underdog. Hmmm…Maybe there is some prejudice in your own ideology?

I am amused because you used the term “accomplishments” in association with those names.

Doc,
“it will keep me amused for the rest of the day.” Small things for small minds, Doc??? Also, if it keeps you amused for the rest of the day, then you won’t be back, right???? Hey, what the hell, wishful thinking on my part!

Jeep; Certainly wouldn’t bother me if there was an honest conservative point of view taught in our nations schools. Who’s to determine that point of view? Would those lessons include Indian history,black history,Irish American history,Mexican American history or strict Protestant white American point of view. I’ve not seen California’s text books so I don’t know whether the gay issue would be taught in history,science or health class. Maybe some are afraid conservatives would teach hatred towards gays if only their opinion ruled the class room.

This is legislation that will be rejected by the people of California just as they rejected same sex marriage with Prop 8. Of course, it was a gay judge, Judge Vaughn Walker, who reversed the ruling against the will of the people of California…go figure?

Again, the people of California have rejected the idea and are up in arms over SB48,(authored by the openly gay Sen. Mark Leno(D-SF) with support from the San Francisco-based Gay-Straight Alliance Network), and will surely demand that this bill be placed on a ballot for defeat. Of course Moonbeam Brown, based on his past actions, will most likely sign the bill into California law. Look for the history books in California to be re-written at considerable expense and teachers will have to be educated, at considerable expense…taxpayer expense that is.

This “indoctrination” will start being taught at the K level and I would look for more and more parents to look at home or private schooling for their kids.

“I think it’s one thing to say that we should be tolerant,” Assemblyman Tim Donnelly said. “It is something else altogether to say that my children are going to be taught that this lifestyle is good.” “Our founding fathers are turning over in their graves.”

“Writing these provisions into textbooks will further an agenda rather than teach facts,” Assemblyman Don Wagner said. “When we do things, we politicize them because that’s the nature of politics. We should leave education to the educators.”

Jeff
Thank you little brother well put!You can stop wearing moms clothes now.

Thanks Big Brother for straightening me out…again. I just found all of this so confusing. I just didn’t know who I was anymore…the heels and the wig are going back in “the closet” and the turbin is back in vogue…again. Just trying to get along.

Great to have you back!Stop listening to Karolyn its corrupting your mind!BTW like the turban!

JeffH,
seeing as the California school system is broke, maybe this is brownie’s way of trying to make more parents home and private school, thus making it able to close a few schools and save money?!?!?? NAH!! He doesn’t think that deep!!!

Hey Joe, always good to see you around. You have a way with words that makes me smile…ya kill me!

It is the parents job to teach morals, not some agenda minded public school teacher. The gay agenda is the worst cancer on the morals of this country.

Sorry Karolyn, kids are smarter than you think. They already know people participate in homosexual lifestyles. Your agenda and the LGBT is to get them to accept it. That’s not going to happen, and taking away parent’s rights by not allowing them to opt out of this only adds fuel to the already lit fire. If you can tell us how sodomy won WWII, I’m willing to listen. If you can tell us what historical figures enhanced the country because they were having sex with the someone of the same sex, I’m willing to listen. If you can tell us how same sex practice built this nation, enlighten us all. Just throwing we’re all bigots isn’t going to work as an answer. Give us some real facts, because here in Southern California the teacher’s association is now scrambling to find one figure. Just one.

“The parents are being bullied”? Only if they had prejudice in their hearts to begin with. These classes/textbooks don’t turn students gay or tell them to become different only to accept the differences in others.

See what I mean?You make an accusation based on an assumption.Whereas I as the parent in question cannot even raise a point of order without being branded a bigot.If that isnt bullying,then what is?-CC.

You force 92% of the population to stand up and recognize 8%of the population and you dont call that bullying?You begin to look like the bigots that you lambaste at every opportunity,and you dont see that as bullying?That is where your disfunction becomes your noose.You go from being bullied to being the bully.And then you still call me the bully.Even when it is entirely possible that I have never bullied you.That sir/ma’am is the very esssence of what being a bully is.But you are too wound up in your emotional content to observe such a thing.But you still point the finger of guilt at me,as though I have done some horrible thing.Read Animal Farm,an Orwellian classic.Then maybe if you are half a human being you will begin to understand what I am saying.-CC.

I certainly don’t think it is bullying to educate children to facts that exist in our world.

“You force 92% of the population to stand up and recognize 8%of the population…”

That 8% figure is homosexual propaganda; the true figure is more like 2-2.5%.

The point I was making,is that these people have transmogrified into that which they have been railing against all this time.They are becoming the oppressors.

Well, Cawmun, if the civil rights movement hadn’t happened, black people would still be riding in the back of the bus. Using your rationale, were white people not bullied into accepting them as equals?

Karolyn,
Again you compare apples tpo oranges!!!! Blacks have NO CHOICE as to the color of their skin!!! Gay is a chosen lifestyle!!!

Joe – Gays have no choice! Ask any of them. Once again, why would anyone possibly CHOOSE a life that includes discrimination, hatred and lack of acceptance? It’s not an easy road. Think about it.

Karolyn,

Since 97.5 to 98% of today’s society find homosexuality offensive in nature and it’s against the natural order. When can another woman inpregnate another woamn with her tongue and another man inpregnate another man through the azz? Answer those questions using the laws of nature because anything else, you’re just blowing smoke and it’s probably the whacky smoke!

“Gays have no choice!”

Oh yes they do. They can choose to live a homosexual life style or choose to NOT live a homosexual lifestyle.

C.C. You mentioned that teaching children about gays forces them to be bullied? Indians are only about 2% of our population and they were certainly bullied into submission. So should we make this a better nation for all or keep excluding certain segments because that has been an American “tradition”. I think we can move on and live and let live. I would be with you if the schools made the gay issue the most important part of their curriculum but I don’t believe that is their intentions.

CC, in regards to your previous post…

Apparently, Gov. Brown IS taking the initiative to teach our kids how to use “hand” tools. They’re just not the orthodox ones that we’ve grown up knowing. I can see it now…..Gov. Brown will start on a tour of CA schools advocating the proper way to address and operate “hand tools” and it will start with him forming a circle jerk with all of the students from K-12.

Speaking of “jerks!”

At least I don’t “jerk off” at the sight of some perverted sex act or photo of a child being sexually molested like you apparently must do.

You’re the one who’s the sicko here, Rick. Just can’t keep your mind out of the gutter, can you? All you can think about is sex.

UNNATURAL SEX IS A SIN!!!

Rick, where did you learn it was okay to talk this way? Get your mind out of the gutter and try to make some valid points instead of this completely inappropriate and completely childish language – if you can.

Ahhh Shucks!!! Did I offend your fragile effeminate side there Doc? I’m sorry. NOT!!!

You didn’t offend me, you just showed that you can’t be taken seriously.

Yeah, I wonder where Rick went to school.

Karolyn,
since i don’t know where Rick went to school, I’ll guess California! It was probably force educated on him the same as California is trying to force educate these kids!!!

For those of you wondering where I went to school, it was a small town in midwest where they still educated the students on the 3 R’s along with history (as it happened, not as it was rewritten by the progessives), science, and government. Luckily, my parents had the good judgement to raise us kids in Kalifornia or some liberal/fascist/marxist state like New York.

oops, insert the word “not” before raise at the end there.

Your wasting your time on Karolyn there ekim. This is the same person that, a few weeks ago, was in full support of the government and the schools asking children as young as 5 years old if they’ve ever engaged in oral sex. Karolyn is one sick and demented sexual pervert advocating the “gaying” of our children in the hopes of cultivating more willing subjects for her own sick, twisted pleasures. Not to mention she’s also jumping on the bandwagon in support of NAMBLA.

She is also a food stamp chick, and gets a pell grant. She is South Carolina’s worst nightmare, a transplant from New Jersey. We are trying to collect enough money to pay her to go back to New Jersey. We call it “cleaning up our state”. She is sick to the bone.

Joyce – There is no need for personal attacks. Why do you find it necessary to attack those who disagree with you?

The suicides and depression are the result of the lack of acceptance by the hetero population. Put yourself in anyone’s shoes who is bullied because of who they are.

Karolyn
Only a week mind with self petty would commit suicide,Like I said, if you confuse the mind then what are they to think of them selves.When they come to the conclusion that thinking with your lower head only gits you into trouble.But telling them its ok only promotes the insecurity.

Dan – I guess compassion is not one of your strong suits.

karolyn – People commit suicide because they have severe mental disorder of one type or another.

Lots of straight people commit suicide, too, but where’s the outcry about them?

Everyone has a cross to bear. It’s up to each of us to learn to overcome and/or accept, and not expect that others should bow to us to make it okay. And anyway, parading one’s sexuality isn’t going to solve the deeper problems inside a disturbed person, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Pure BS!

How so? This lifestyle is a fact whether you like it or not. All factual things should be taught good or bad. To do otherwise is to deprive our children of a full education.

Absolutely right, Doc. Why do these people want to keep their children from knowledge? They only want them to have selective knowledge.

Doc Sarvis, if you really believe your statement, then you should embrace the biggest facts in the universe:
There is a God;
God declares Himself to be a Tri-unity;
The second person of that Trinity has lived and died to redeem fallen creation;
All His creatures are responsible to repent and worship Him alone.

I’m sure you must advocate teaching these facts in our gov’t schools.

Jbri – Those are not facts!

Yes….Karolyn would never force selction on us…….haw!

Lets teach them responsible firearms safety too.I have heard that there are more firearms owners,than gay people in the US.Why not offer a firearms class to the kindergartners as well?Theach them how to operate,clean,aim and fire.Set up ranges at the scools.There is an Amendment in the Constitution,guaranteeing that the right to posess shall not be abridged.I see no such mendment for the Gay community.Yet they do not teach firearm oreation,and safety to children.Hmmmm.
Perhaps these leftists are right(I hope you all see the pun).We need to teach our children about many things we are not teaching them now.How about teaching them how to use and operate power tools from a young age so that they can be proficient at the use of tools when they get out of school?Or even just regular hand tools?The world needs ditch diggers y’know.Lets dress them up in uniforms,slide into their Jackboots TM and make them goose step out to the Chevy Volt TM,after a balanced breakfast of Soylent Green TM(green is the new red).Kindergarten is the place to learn Powertool Operation TM,Firearms Training TM,LGBT Indoctrination TM,Chemical Evaluation TM,Pharmaceutical Rehabilitation TM,and most importantly,Love Of The Government TM.Thank yo for co-operating,with our Mandatory Education System TM.-CC.

Doc
There you go, not giving choice but forcing something against ones will.
That is not teaching it’s called indoctrination by force.Typical maneuver by the liberal mind set.I could care less, if some one is gay as long as they keep it to them selves,and not flaunt it in my face and force their life style on others.So Doc are you just coming out or thinking of going in?

Cawmon Cents!!!! Very astute!!! Very FACTUAL and Very common sense!!!!!

As for Karolyn, Prove that gays aren’t a lifestyle and are a natural occurance!!!! you live by yourself up in the hills because nobody could stand to live WITH you!!! Nobody could stand that over the rainbow thinking you participate in!!!

Joe – You prove to me it is a choice!

karolyn – Can you prove it isn’t a choice?

karolyn, that’s easy. They found a gene that can determin obesity, one that determines all sorts of things, but no “GAY” Gene!!! IT’S A CHOICE!!!!

Karolyn,here is your proof.You can either choose to,or choose not to have sex,correct?Assuming that you are not like the amimals,which are overcome by their base instincts,you have a choice to engage in that behavior or not to,correct?Now…assuming that you make that choice,how is it not a choice who you determine to have sexual relations with?Do you choose a person based upon a feeling you have about them,or is it based upon other criteria?Either way you are still making a choice.If sexuality was not a conscious activity,then you may have an argument.But it is a very conscious activity,therefore one must make choices to who they wish to engage in such an activity with.Human beings,unlike the animals who are captive of their base insticts,have sexual intercourse as a matter of leisurely activity.They choose to do this for entertainment puposes.If it feels good,do it.Or so I have heard.Now…how you entertain yourself is a matter of choice wouldnt you agree?If you like movies then to go to the theater.If you like sports them yougoto the venue.But you still must make conscious decisions to that end.
Sexuality is the same in principle.You choose to engage in that activity based on your attraction(though that might not be the only factor)to another individual.Since engaging in sexual activity is a choice,then how is it that you do not make a conscious decision about whom you wish to engage in that activity with?In fact…you do makea conscious decision…there is your proof.-CC.

Just like with heteros, it is not all based on sex! What about love and simple attraction?

Doc,

Life is taught at home and when a child doesn’t get taught the fact’s of life what do they tend to do, get it from their friends and or other’s on the street. It’s the parents responsibility to teach the bird’s and the bee’s not the public school system. Where does homosexuality fit into a schools curiculm, math “Nope”, english “Nope”, science “Nope”, gym “Nope”. As others have stated it’s the individuals accomplishments through history and or a nations accomplishments that is taught and not other’s sexual orientation.

Well…..it may have fit into the gym class where Doc went to school.

What’s the truth then Doc Sarvis? Give us historical figures that accomplished something because they were having sex with someone of the same sex. How does sodomy win wars? How did one woman having sexual relations with another woman win women the right to vote?

It has aboslutely NOTHING to do with teaching hate. It has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with MY right to raise my children with traditional values and standands. Being gay/lesbian is NOT a “normal” condition – it is a choice that a very small group of people make and I do NOT want anyone even suggesting to my children that the lifestyle is anything but just that – a choice. Watch as this only pushes the roles of private schools up – then we will see the demands for tax credits because we do not use the public system which has become nothng more than an indoctrination process.

YOU don’t know what you’re talking about and have probably never even talked to a gay person, let alone had one for a friend.

Karolyn,
You are such a BIG (liberal) FOOL.

We can love all people without learning about their sexuality… that should remain private. People should first and foremost be (English speaking) Americas… that is the common thread that connects us.

Love the person, hate the sin… I have told you this before.

It is one thing for adult people to accept that behavior, but quite another for children who are not ready to make those decisions. My elementary school age sons do NOT need to hear about SEX in any form from gov school let alone perversions of it. That is MY job as a parent when and should I see fit.

The CA ‘Gay Agenda” teaches public school children from Kindergarten on up about their perversions of sex… that is PATHETIC.

Do the ‘religious Conservative heterosexual’ folk get to have a say so??? (which would to be for parents to teach their kids and none taught at school… do you liberals care about our ‘ways’ or only yours?

No ones’ children that young are ready to hear about sex let alone perversions of it such as mentioned: gays lesbians, bisexual (as is your obama leader) or transgendered… INDOCTRINATION. Just look at the mockery they have made of the American flag above… how can anyone see that as respectful.

We can only ‘thank God’ that CA is too broke to buy the new Demo Gerry Brown textbooks to corrupt the school children this fall.

karolyn – Schools should not be doing what they’re doing, against the will of the vast majority of parents: socially indoctrinating our children and teaching them to denigrate the values of their parents.

No one has been teaching hate. That’s just another liberal talking point. What we should teach is to respect everyone, regardless of their sexuality. In fact, why should we even THINK about a person’s sexuality at all?

This is nothing less than further sexualizing our children, toward making it acceptable for perverts to engage in their perversions with our conditioned youth.

I have been telling people this was happening, but people don’t pay attention and they didn’t believe me. Well, now they do, and it’s too late.

Thank you Kate8… well said.

Yes she does know what she is talking about Karolyn, it is YOU who does not know what YOU are talking about. Listen to the others on this blog…you just might learn something of value. As long as you plan to FORCE homosexuality, lesbianism, bi-sexualism, and transgenderism onto everyone else, you will never convince these responders that YOU should have the same rights as ‘normal’ people.

Christin and Kate – It does not HAVE to be all about sexual orientation. If kids learn at a young age that some families have 2 daddies or 2 mommies, that has nothing to do with sex. That 2 men or 2 women can love each other just like mommy and daddy. The prejudices of children start young. I’m thankful I never followed my parents’ prejudices. Yes, all people need to be accepted at face value, for who they are as a human being. Unfortunately, when you add the label “fag” or “queer”, as things stand, they are absolutely not accepted, and kids learn that early.

karolyn – Names like fag and queer were not accepted in my day, let alone now.

This is about nothing but shoving their lifestyle down all of our throats. All you libs know is FORCE.

Why are you such a champion of this movement? Or is it that you will always side with the perceived underdog, regardless of whether it is the right thing to do.

Karolyn,

Why have you bought into the notion that there is so much ‘gay bullying’ going on?

I have NEVER seen anyone bully a homosexual, bisexual or transgendered person …EVER! … Not when I went to school, not when I taught school, and not at any of my children’s schools, nor any other place I ever gone to here, there or in the big cities and I have been all over North America and in two other countries.

I’m sure people do make fun of them (which is not bullying), but it is NOT as rampant as you liberals say… that is just the way you get EXTRA RIGHTS above everybody else. ‘Making fun’ of some one is just that no matter what the harsh teasing is about. ‘Crime’ is crime whether it is against a man or a woman no matter the sexual orientation.

There are not so many gay couples with children that we need to educate the entire nation or planet on that subject. I have had to already explain the word ‘gay’ to my kids and I have taught them the TRUTH that it is a sinful life style that is against God’s ways. I have taught them to love the person and hate the sin.

You know we each have been given a set of ‘challenges’ in our lives…
some of us may have been born into a family that has: an alcoholic parent or lost a parent very early in life, or a drug addicted sibling, an abused cousin or been raped ourselves, or maybe there was a divorce or our spouse suffers from cancer, or one is poor and does not have a positive self concept and outlook on life, or one is rich and is trapped by the demands put upon them, or maybe a boy is born or becomes ‘effeminate’ when he matures and a girl is born or feels more ‘masculine’…
BUT…no matter the ‘challenge’ it is up to each of us to seek our Holy God and follow His will for our lives and do that which is right… or one may chose to follow ‘man’ or ‘themselves’ and be outside the will of God… that is each person’s choice.

But certainly we should not educate children in elementary as young as Kindergarten in public schools about sex, let alone deviant sexual behaviors… that is the Parent’s job and the Government has taken that Parental right away.

But then you are a liberal, government employee, sixty’s chick who is not a teacher or a Christian, and not married nor have no children, so maybe you do not understand a Parent who wishes to protect their child(ren) from the stumbling blocks and evils of the world until they are ready to handle it.

Garbage in… Garbage out… as a preacher I once had said.

I am probably wasting my breath trying to explain ANYTHING to you as God says ‘we are so speak folly to the foolish.’

Christin – You really do not know me, as I do not know you. However, I can tell you that I do understand. I just disagree and feel that it is incumbent upon me to make my views heard. I know that I come away from these discussions with more knowledge than I started with. Isn’t that how we all learn? By exchanging ideas?

Karolyn, I have a question…Will this new law help any student find gainful employment in the future? And if so, doing what? I’m sure that some inventors, researchers, writers and the like have been gay just as they were straight. But so what? I find it appalling that Bakersfield has now decided that students should be taught that there are now more than two genders starting in kindergarten. Really? If your little personal agenda comes before educating kids so that they can find a job upon graduation, perhaps now is the time to start pulling kids out of public schools and put them in private schools where at least they will get a good education.

I don’think the whole purpose of education is finding a job. The purpose of education is to produce well-rounded and informed children and adults.

Have you looked around the country lately? At the global economy? Our substandard capability to compete?

How’s that whole “well-rounded” thing working out?

Jeep – If kids were taught more on how to live in this world, we wouldn’t be in the shape we’re in.

What you’re actually saying is this law is a way to produce bi-sexual children with an “anything is acceptable and anything goes” attitude when it comes to sex. That’s your idea of “well-rounded”. We’re on to you and your tactics of promoting the gay lifestyle. You, madam, are an abomination to society!

Rick – Please don’t make me laugh so much!

Yes, Karolyn, kids need to learn how to get along in this world, like reading, writing and arithmetic in schools…and, social skills from parents and home…

Isn’t it amaizing how our country survived for many years without the students being taught “how to be a well rounded individual” but since that has become one of the major requirements in education we rank well vbelow the top in almost every catatory.

“….. it diverts precious classroom time away from science, math, reading and writing, and focuses on the agenda of a small group of people”

I believe that says it all.

independant thinker, so true and well stated…

Karolyn
Just look up at my little brother,This is what happens when you tell kids its ok if your gay but it just adds to a very confused mind that is struggling to understand emotions that they are unaware guiding their little minds.What you suggest is to pervert those minds.Why?Just look around you right now what is missing?A companion? Right?Your choice to only be in the middle of your indecision is alienating you from a complete life whether male or female you are the one that needs to get of the fence.Either you are or your not!

Karolyn, even your name has been altered, along with your mind. Have you ever been able to produce a child with your tongue? Has a man ever produced a child through their anus.

The purpose of education is to teach academics so that children can grow up to become productive adults. Social values that include acceptance of others generally begins in the home–it is NOT the schools job to teach these values unless they are shared community values. Your posts are very biased in terms of promoting a lifestyle that goes against the grain; people will not accept that. If, indeed, you are wanting others to share your zealous platitudes for those who prefer same gender sexuality, then do so without the expense of threatening the well-being of the children. If you can change the mind of an adult to your way of thinking, you do not have to resort to brainwashing the young–which is exactly what this new law does.

For those unacquainted with Communism’s 45 Steps, I strongly advise that you study them. Many have already been accomplished. America has just elected a president who has more in common with communism than he does with America. If you love this country, fight to make sure Obama and his bots do not fulfill these steps. It is a fight too many of us are too late engaging in, but it ain’t over yet.

Karolyn, I suggest you go to this link and see what is happening to our country. Wake up! Don’t be a tool.
http://roadsassy.com/communisms-45-steps/
Here’s a taste:
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.”

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.”

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

If this doesn’t convince of the control the government already has over us, then you are truly lost.

RealPatriot – Had we had a party true to our American values, they’d have had this information published across the land, and talked about in the media. Instead, even though it’s been available, it’s been kept hidden from public scrutiny while we’ve been slowly desensitized and corrupted, wholly ignorant of where it was all going.

We had some Congressmen who tried to tell us back in the 50s and even the 60s, but they’ve all been silenced and/or brought onboard with the communists, and we were too stupid to see it for what it was.

Now, those who need to read it won’t bother, and the rest of us are left to lament the loss of our children and our nation.

Sorry Karolyn,

LGBT is a choice individuals make about their sexual orinetation and since California has choosen to recognize LGBT individuals in history, the state has recognized not the person but his/her sexual preference. By relating said individual to LGBT the state has fundamentaly endorsed a sexual life style that only 2-2.5% of the US population subscribe to, so why doesn’t the state endorse God, more people believe in the all mighty? What we have is a state recognizing a life style choice that is fundamentaly damaging to our young children, confusing them evan further. Parents in California will probably start moving their children from public education to private in the hopes of getting them a better education from a broken public school system over run by the union and special interest groups.

It is most emphatically NOT a “lifestyle choice!”

Oh but it is a livestyle choice. The feelings might or might not be genetic but the “lifestyle choice” is just that a CHOICE.

Karolyn,

It’s a choice we all make at the appropriate time in our lives. That includes you and I, you may love another woman and or man that’s the choice you have made for yourself, I love women and looking at another man sexually turns my stomack. Yes it’s a “life style choice” no way around it.

Remnds me of the undercover tape of the Bachmann counselor working with a gay man telling him that God made mens eyes to see women as appealing. Come on! Men’s EYES made that way!

Karolyn,
Two words PROVE IT!!!!!

ALL SINS ARE CHOSEN!!

Joe H. – Where have you been? Good to have you back!

Hows the back Joe?

Dan az & kate8,
Backs doing fairly good and good thing. got a couple of big jobs in and have been very busy. when you can’t hand off the work to someone else you go like mad!!!! Got em done now so will be back for awhile!!

It’s a choice.

Glad to fear it Joe

That was hear it not fear it sorry its early still.

Dan az,
I understood the intended word! no prob, friend!!

What on earth makes you say a thing like that, Karolyn? Just because most people disagree with the lifestyle you are a part of (or wish to be a part of) does not mean they promote hatred or violence. There are mean-spirited, violent, untrustworthy, and hateful homosexuals, lesbians, transgendered, and bisexuals just as there are among all other groups. Trying to paint them as put-down, trampled on, victims of society doesn’t cut it. Even when these individuals were referred to as fags, queers, queens, etc……it simply meant they lived differently from the mainstream society; it has nothing to do with the hate-mongering and violence you are dreaming of. Get over yourself–you are not their saviour and certainly not ours. If you want respect and acceptance, they do it the old fashioned way: EARN IT.

Karolyn, please enlighten us on positive historical homosexual figures. Harvey Milk as it turns out was actually a pedophile of boys under 16 years of age and a strong supporter of Jim Jones.

Ellen – I entirely agree with you. A person’s identity should not be defined by their sexuality.

It seems, though, that gays and other deviants are often so obsessed with their sexuality that they define themselves that way. And now they’re forcing us to go along with it.