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The UPSA

July 8, 2011 by  

The UPSA

How long before every aspect of government has its own police force? Apparently, we are nearly there, as an 83-year-old New York woman found out on June 25.

Darbe Pitofsky told CBS New York that at about 6:30 that morning, she was on her way to get a cup of coffee when she threw a brown bag filled with old papers in a city litter basket near her apartment on East 71st Street. Suddenly, a city sanitation worker swooped down on her and demanded her information to write a summons.

“I froze,” Pitofsky told the station’s reporter. “He just frightened the hell out of me, scared me to death. I was terrified.”

She told the station the sanitation worker demanded a form of identification and threatened to “put her away” if she didn’t comply. The worker took 25 minutes to write out her ticket; and when she complained that it would cost $100, he threatened to make it $300. Her crime: Street baskets are for pedestrian use.

So this is where we are in America. Sanitation workers are staking out garbage pails, discerning who can and who can’t use them. An isolated incident? Hardly. In December, 80-year-old Delia Gluckin was fined $100 for improper disposal for throwing her newspaper in the trashcan in the Inwood neighborhood, the station reported.

And to further connect the dots, in March 2010 the U.S. Department of Education purchased 27 Remington Model 870 police 12-guage shotguns for its Office of Inspector General, which is the “law enforcement” arm of the Department. Last month, the Department apparently put those guns to use when OIG special agents executed a search warrant at a Stockton, Calif., residence.

Initial news reports indicated the raid was conducted because of unpaid student loans. The DOE later issued a statement denying the raid involved student loans, but wouldn’t say specifically why the raid was carried out.

It would seem that with local police and sheriffs and the myriad Federal alphabet soup law enforcement agencies, there would be plenty of officers to handle all of the nation’s scofflaws. But apparently not in the United Police States of America.

Filed Under: Civil Liberty, Conservative Politics, Freedom Watch, Government, Hot Topics, Liberty
Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American who has been writing a newsletter since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Bubba

    Yup, if y’all compare White Hitler to our Black Hitler, the similarities are scary! Only that Black Hitler Obermeister is TEN TIMES WORSE! When HE (BHO) decides he wants to be elected, he will simply use his power of executive order and declare himself “the peoples’ Leader”(Fuhrer) for life! Long may he live – NOT! It’s time to take action and do what it takes to remove from office ANYONE who is complicit with this NWO or One World Order insanity, inspired by none other than satan himself! (BHO is just his appointee)

    • JimRed

      All due respect, he is merely the lily-white Marxist Soros’ puppet. Other than getting him elected by cashing in on liberal white guilt, his color has naught to do with it!

      • Bubba

        Agreed – just stating the obvious that Obama is a puppet, agreeing to do all he can to bankrupt Amerika and turn her over to the UN in order to create a One World Government – the New World Order…

  • Baba

    This is not an issue about a “pedestrian” but more placing private trash in a city trash container. The “trash police” could have asked the elderly lady to remove her trash and warned her instead of issuing a big fine and treating her like a criminal. If she had used a Kleenex and tossed it into the city trash container, that would have been all right because she, as a pedestrian, would not throw it down on the street and litter. But, removing personal trash from the home and placing it in city trash containers is unacceptable. The issue between the ‘trash police’ and the lady was handled very poorly.

    • Dan

      Actually, a used KLEENEX might even be worse …

      They might try to charge her with some violation for “improper disposal of hazardous medical waste” or some other BS !

    • http://wwww.tombstonelizardmedia.com TombstoneLizard

      Unless it was a huge Hefty sack full of household garbage, this guy needed to shut his pie-hole. I still would have punched him in the mouth. Wait, oh, right, he was picking on a little old lady, not some guy like me who would have stuffed him into the can after shoving a dirty diaper into his mouth!

  • Fedup&more

    If some Sanitation Worker did that to my Grandma, I’d find out who he was, where he was and then send some of my Badass Friends over to convince him he really screwed up in giving my Grandma a citation.

  • TonyD

    We have elected ourselves to be the world’s police.
    Our economy is largely built around that concept.
    Is it not reasonable to expect that as we are the world’s police, we will also be our own?
    We have sought legal rulings/definitions for every issue no matter how small, creating for ourselves the ultimate police state.
    Generally speaking, we are now reaping what we have sown.

    • Dons621

      At 84 I intend to be one of the “LAST MEN STANDING”. The Germans tried, so did the Japanese, and just recently 3 COLLAGE students became visitor,s to the E.R. to learn a lesson of over confidence.

      I have a long memory. WWII and Korea. Bring it on I have nothing to loose.

      • Dan az

        Like they say Don never screw with and old guy if he dosen’t want to fight he will just kill you.Curious though was it a cane? :)

      • Al Sieber

        You got that right Dan.

      • Al Sieber

        Dan, how much longer are we gonna take their $hit?, and let them keep pushing us around?

  • michael

    Just another content to go to hell liberal throwing his proverbial weight around.

  • John

    1) At the time she was walking down the street does that not make her a pedestrian??? (Dictionary.com Pedestrian: “a person who goes or travels on foot; walker. ” If she was driving, and simply threw something into the trash, that may be different than if she was walking.

    2) I know too many people that If anyone ever broke into their house due to student loans and was not a police officer of either the city, county sheriff, or State police… They would be faced with a bunch of bullets… Just sayin’ they better be careful…

    • Dons621

      John you really do not expect these bottom feeder,s to worry about the “RULE of LAW”, that is only for us soon to be Infidels of the Chosen One???

  • shestar

    And the Bible says things will get worse!!

  • benrush

    Go to YouTube and watch the Yuri Bezmenov video. Our society has become hypnotized by ideologies that have been injected into our culture while we were asleep at the wheel. It’s called “demoralization”. I think it is similar to the methods Rasputin used although more sophisticated.

  • Ret

    I read a statement that applies to the things that are happening everywhere. Don’t know who the author is.
    “The essence of normality is the denial of reality.”
    The new normal is to have a swat team/garbageman on every corner, for every reason. Wonder if those same punk garbage eater scum would approach a 6 foot guy, or are they so pathetic and emasculated that they’ll only approach 80 year old women. I have nothing but contempt for the likes of them.
    Tell ya what, that a**hole would have to arrest my butt, take me to jail, and I’d demand a trial by jury, or are they being outlawed too.

    • Dons621

      Granny with a sock full of nickels will work wonders on cowards, just have a back up team in place when she yell.s RAPE!!!!

      • Dan az

        Don better yet it should be mandatory that all grannies carry a stun gun so they can watch these guys piss their pants when they hit the ground. :)

  • Capitalist at Birth

    The TSA will be the national police force that Obama has spoken about. Look out and be prepared.

    • Al Sieber

      You got that right.

    • Dons621

      Word has it, and pictures of double Chain link compounds that were built along an Isolated railroad siding. 12 foot tall is a bit of a jump for any livestock. They are still vacant at last sighting, HMM planning a summer Vacation or a home away from home????

      • DaveH

        Amazing, isn’t it, how history just keeps repeating itself? And we’re supposed to be the intelligent species.

      • Christin

        I think it all depends on one’s Heart…

        Good or Evil… ya know

  • Kimberly Boldt

    We ARE a “police state” now. State police, local police, DHS, FBI, ATF, BATF, Eco-Nazis, etc. We don’t need any of them! Just a sheriff and some deputies to handle local problems, a citizen’s militia to handle violent factions, a tyrannical gov’t and invasion, and U.S. Marshals for those crimes committed out of state jurisdictions. The rest are all for the “police state.” And the government has them at their disposal anytime they need to put us down.

  • rkeo

    at some point the people are going to have to smack the government in their collective heads and let them know they work for us

  • UK Newbie

    She was probably seen leaving her appartment carrying the paper bag. Some people do actually use public trash cans for their household rubbish, but a warning would have sufficed. The law CAN be an ass wherever we live, but the people who hide behind the law and behave in the automaton manner of this sanitation worker are the HOLE of the ass…

  • Santi

    These idiots are turning our country into a police state. They are trying to get wal-mart employees to act as ice and turn in people if they have no ID’s on them. So if you forget your wallet or purse you will get turned in. WOW what a country we live in and for me to have served it proudly.

    • joe

      I’ve come to regret my 14 years of service, especially after being locked up for 4 years for owning an “assault weapon”, just two years after leaving the military where, ironically, I was required to carry and use “assault weapons”.

      • DaveH

        Whether the leaders are welfare statists or military statists, it’s all about building their power and perks at our expense.

  • JimH

    There is a certain personality type, that if they are given one ounce of authority, they will try to dump a gallon of it on you.
    The reason the Barny Fife caractor was so funny is we have all experienced one.
    The waste basket policeman was probably turned down from the police force after flunking the phycological test and had to setle for garbage cop. He now has the ability to take his frustration out on 80 year old ladys who properly disposed or their litter, instead of throwing it out on the ground.(another opportunity For barny jr. to write a ticket)

    • Cawmun Cents

      Notice that the flagrancy of nannyism usually extends to the elderly?If they tried that kind of thing on ol’CC,they might find themselves upside down in a dumpster somewhere.Look folks,I am as tolerant as the next guy,but some things are getting way out of hand.Too many laws are starting to bug me.Its not as if I want to be an outlaw.But eventually in this lawyered up country of ours,you will break a law whether you know it or not,for the simple fact that there are too many on the books.Granny doesnt know these laws and the legislators who produced them,count on that.Its the reason for their pay raises.I am sick up and fed.Its to the point where I have animus to officials of any kind.But it is the nature of progressive government to get under ones skin.I have someone throwing a local publications ads in my driveway every week.I dont know who the people are who put this thing together and throw it in my yard once a week.For all I know,Al Quaeda could be doing it.It could be laced with biological agents or chemicals of a nasty kind.Why should I be forced to pick it up?Isnt that the kind of thing like a mail-bomb that couls wind up exploding in your hand?That is what happened to a man in a town nearby the one I live in.It blew up in his hand….the ads that I am talking about.I called and complained but it was fruitless to do so.That was before the man got his hand blew off.Everyone including people in my own family thought I was over-reacting.Then came the story on the news and I said,”Didnt I tell ya?”Now none of my neighbors mind that I have twenty of these things laying in my driveway.They dont even look at me crosseyed.The level of stupidity in our system is getting to be cumbersome.Question is….who will snap first….me,or the system.My money is on them…haw!-CC.

      • DaveH

        That is what I’ve observed also, Cawmun. When I was a kid (50 years ago), most people just respected the law. We just accepted that obeying the law was the right thing to do.
        Now with so many laws, as you said, a person can’t help but be breaking one or the other. As a result, many of us have lost respect for the law, and thus obey only when we think there is probable danger of being caught. And many people flout the law purposely out of rebelliousness.
        There is no doubt in my mind that people behave better when they are Free. If we want to get our formerly peaceful society back, we need to shrink Government back dramatically and leave people to make their own life choices, whether those choices are mistaken or not.

      • Void1972

        DaveH
        Tolerance, Equality, Diversity. With these words, the Communist were able to control America. How politicly correct, how sad.

      • Jay

        Dave: When I was a kid (50 years ago), most people just respected the law. We just accepted that obeying the law was the right thing to do.

        Dave, have you ever tried to figure out, or come up with a reason why that was so? What do you suppose was the underpinning or at foundation that our society rested upon that produced that sort of adherence or respect for the law?

      • DaveH

        I believe it was the fact that back then most laws were grounded on important morality (theft, murder, etc.) which the vast majority of people could grasp as indeed wrong.
        Now, many of the laws are based on things which a large portion of people just don’t care about. So, they ignore them. Once people get used to ignoring the unimportant laws, it degrades their respect for all laws.

      • Jay

        Interesting deduction Dave, and I must admit that that has never occurred to me. It has been proposed that law, or laws, quite naturally stimulate and incite rebellion in man. The more laws the higher the level of rebellion. Just my two cents, and your assertion seems quite reasonable too!

      • Kate 8

        Actually, most nit-picky “laws” are not laws at all, but statutes, and are not really binding unless we submit to their jurisdiction.

        The Constitution was written to prevent laws that would violate personal liberty, and they have only been allowed to be in effect because of our silence and our acceptance of them.

      • Jay

        You made an important distinction, Kate8; Laws created and enforced for the purpose of societal safety and stability, as opposed to laws created but for the purpose to steal our liberty, or as you stated: laws that would violate personal liberty! I agree!

      • lkar

        The other issue with excessive laws is which ones are priority enforced? Illegal aliens, Naw. Guns sold to know arms runners for drug lords, Naw. War powers act, Naw. Murder innocent child (Casey), Naw. Granny throwing papers away, throw the book at her!

      • DaveH

        That brings to mind “selective enforcement”. There are so many laws that most everyone is breaking one law or another on a regular basis. So that gives the officials the ability to pick and choose who to punish. If you get on their bad side, watch out.

      • Cawmun Cents

        that would be all of us…..haw!

  • mickey

    And I thought LA was bad.

    • TIME

      Mickey,

      I have an office still in NYC, but years ago back when the Dink was the law of NYC I was assaulted one morning. During that assault I was stabbed twice. I know so what?
      Well please keep in mind I was the victim I did take the knife away from the twit, I then beat the crap out of him. Keep in mind I have was stabbed in the chest and the arm.
      Yet I got arrested and charged with assault! I kid you not.

      • Dan az

        Time
        I believe it!Here if you call the cops your in the right even if you are the robber!Its true it happens allot here.Guilty until proven innocent.Spendy I might add!

      • TIME

        Dan you bring up a really point indeed. Anyone not awake yet, what Dan just posted is dead on truth.

        The system was set up that you were only alledged to have been involved, but you were Not Guilty until proven otherwise. Now its a 180* flip your guilty until you prove otherwise.

        So now with this flipped system BTW we all have allwoed the political class to enslave us with.
        You get alledged safty, to sublimate your needs with rather than Freedom and Personal liberty.
        This form of Government we now have is really no differant than the NAZI’S.

      • ipsd48

        Perhaps Jerry the Jackel would be a better nomme de guerre

      • Christin

        Dan az,

        A mom told me that her daughter called their unstable female neighbor a “b-tch” and evidentally she call the cops. (I found out later that the neighbor was a mother of a cop.) The cop that came walked on the daughter and the lady’s private property and grabbed the 22 yr old daughter and the mom put her hand in front of her daughter and said, “What are you doing? Let’s all calm down.” The cop said, “I’m taking you (the mother) in, too.” And she said, “For what? On what grounds?” And the cop said, “I’ll think of something… and he threw them both in jail.”

        True story.

        Police State is here…

        The leo’s are emboldened, rough, armed, and ready to make some money …esp holiday bonuses.

        American citizen beware.

      • Dan az

        Christin
        I know what you mean!I find it hard to believe it times but it happened to a friend of mine in williams.These four want to be cowboys that work on the train as train robbers were sitting outside of a local 7 eleven and my buddy a professional heavy weight boxer came out of the store and one of them said shoot him.Well my buddy asked them to repeat what they had said and they got up and walked into the store and laughed at him so he followed them in and ask them again and when they wouldn’t repeat it he said thats what I thought your just a bunch of c-nts and walked out.That day a little later he had 5 cop cars and a bunch of gun pointing want to be’s take him to jail.He spent the night in jail and the judge just told him to watch his mouth.One of the jerks was the mayor of the town. oops!

      • Christin

        Dan z,

        I am not for cussing and talking trash… but, I’d like to know where it says you can not swear at someone, even an arrogant officer, in public…

        If there are REAL ACTUAL LAWS about that then most the officers would constantly be in jail because they are obnoxious cussers… if there are not laws then Power Hungry Police should shut the heck up and quite harassing the public and wasting their time.

        The LEO just hate it if you don’t worship the ground they walk on.

        someone should tell that there is already a Jesus Christ that can walk on water and bring the dead back to life.

        It is evident to me that police use much hyperbole when they accuse the citizenry of misconduct and misdemeanors they classify as crimes.

      • Dan az

        Christin
        I’m a leo :) stop it!:)

      • Christin

        Dan z,

        Leo as in ‘leo the lion’ for a July or August birthday…

        Or LEO as in “Law Enforcement Officer”…. ? ;]

      • Karolyn

        Christin – I used to live new a small town in NJ that enacted an anti-swearing in public ordinance about 10 years ago. Too many people were disgusted by all the trash talk on the street. What’s wrong with that? I sure don’t enjoy it when some hoodlums are walking down the street “motherf-er” this and “f” that at the top of their lungs.

      • Fina B.

        That’s why some cops get killed. You can’t tell me there aren’t “bad cops” out there. What is it they say? You can defend yourself if you fear for your life? In my opinion, the older lady should have been armed and shot the bully assaulting her young, cop or no cop!That particular one is a menace! I’ll bet my knickers the only ones to agree will be the ones who have been victimized by “police brutality”.

      • Dan az

        christin
        As in August my better half agrees with you though!:)

      • Christin

        Dan az and wife,
        :)

      • Al Sieber

        Well Dan, I know all about Williams because my son lives there, but Kingman is just as bad, we have the cops out numbered and out gunned here in Arizona. I’m not a Leo, I’m a Scorpio.

      • Kate 8

        Al – Did you happen to see the recent video of the woman who was censored from speaking at a town meeting in Quartzsite? She was hauled off (and injured) by the police!

        My late hubby and I used to spend 6 wks every winter in Q at a gem and mineral show, and it is a strange town.

        There were always Muslim traders there from Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc., and we had an incident where a Muslim dealer cheated an American dealer who happened to be a woman, and refused to make good. The Sheriff was called, and some deputies, including a woman deputy, came out and gathered them all in an aisle, with all of us watching, and the woman deputy insisted that the Muslim dealer apologize to the woman dealer then and there.

        Well, this was the ultimate insult to a Muslim. He was so humiliated that his crew packed up and left. And good riddance.

        It was good to see some good old American justice for a change.

      • Kate 8

        The town of Quartzsite today has declared a state of emergency.

        It’s the lead article on WND. I’m not going to post the link because I don’t know how many will see it this late in the day.

      • Dan az

        Kate
        I did see that! And I heard we made the national news also!The kiabab fire dept. got some new board members and they wanted a audit, the chief there said not happening so they got a few bills and found that he and a few others were using the credit card for personal use,like taking vacations on it!So they insisted and the next day they had a little fire in the back of one of their trucks and said it was all destroyed,So they called the cops, but they just shined it on and mentioned to the chief that he had a fix for it by way of 150 grn bullet.So they called in the FBI and the AG and I guess the news also.What a great country we live in huh!

      • Al Sieber

        Kate, I live about 130 hundred miles from Quartzsite Az. and know what happened there recently. I worked at the Copperstone mine there a few years ago for American Bonanza out of Canada, yeah! we can’t lease Canadian mining property, but they can lease ours. in our county (Mohave Co. Ariz.) we are fighting against the local Govt., that’s where we start.

  • jim

    just a note to think about. have we all noticed that our local leo’s are looking more and more like storm troopers than old officer “joe bolton”? when “it” hits the fan (when HE finds a reason to declare martial law) we will be surrounded by a para military police force! lots of luck!

    • Cameron

      This was not a LEO this was someone who was given responsibility who cannot handle it.

    • Sarah

      I agree Jim and it’s what scares me the most! Those in our law enforcement who wont’ want to go along with Marshall Law will be replaced by the UN… But… OUR CONSTITUTION GIVES US THE RIGHT TO FIGHT BACK! AND ONE HECK OF A FIGHT IT WILL BE!

      • JimRed

        Those in our law enforcement who wont’ want to go along with Marshall Law will be replaced by the UN…

        The upside is that those light blue helmets make wonderful targets…suggest that your local range get UN helmet targets to prepare us.

      • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Crickdick

        Amen sister.Been ready for this day.Payback

      • Kate8

        It seems to me that martial law is being put in place incrementally, by stealth, rather than as the result of a major incindent.

        I read somewhere awhile back that martial law was already declared. It just might be true by the looks of things.

      • Dan az
      • Dan az
      • Kate8

        Dan az – Thanks for the little movie. Good stuff, especially in these times.

        There’s been a really lot of military planes flying overhead lately. They’re going right now, heading up toward the FEMA installations in the mountains, or whatever other places they may have up there. It’s eerie and unsettling.

        As for the other article, what can I say? Nothing surprises me anymore. O seems to do whatever he wants, and laws are whatever he says they are.

    • ipsd48

      Did you really expect anything DIFFERENT after Clinton signed his National Police Act?

  • hopalong

    GESTOPOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • ipsd48

      more like C.H.A.O.S.

  • skippy

    What the hell???!!!! If she was ‘walking’ on the sidewalk to get a cup of coffee…is she NOT A PEDESTRIAN???

    • kodster

      No crap, skippy! Considering that the majority of NYC residents don’t own a car, or if they do, it’s garaged, and they take public transportation, because it’s such a PITA to move it and find another parking space? So, the likelihood of these 2 octagenarians even driving in the crazy city of NY is slim to nothing! Something is seriously wrong there. Guess they consider it another form of revenue income, to have the sanitation workers cite “so-called” violations.

    • DaveH

      How about this one from Canada?
      An itinerant Calgary man has been fined $115 for spitting into a garbage can in a move that advocates for the homeless say borders on bullying. The man was given the ticket on Monday when a downtown police officer deemed his spitting an “improper disposal of waste”.

      Or from Prescott Valley, Arizona:
      Spitting on sidewalks or in public buildings could bring a $500 fine.

      Source:
      http://surveycentral.org/survey/25834.html

      Whatever happened to social pressure?

      • DaveH

        Speaking of Prescott Valley, they installed photo speed enforcement about 5 years ago. One poor guy wasn’t aware his photo had been taken on three separate days, so he got 3 different tickets a few weeks later in the mail and lost his driver’s license as a result. He had no way of knowing that he was being ticketed, thus didn’t change his behavior after the first ticket. That is Big Brother at their finest.
        I avoid Prescott Valley like the plague. You’d think their businesses would start complaining as I’m sure tourists will think twice about going through that area after receiving an unexpected ticket in the mail.

      • TIME

        Dave,

        I used to love to go to Prescott they had a killer Restrurant downtown just past all the antique shops. Great home brewed beer, super food.
        Plus that long road off I 17 coming down from Flag was just super for a super blast drive, when they popped up the speed limits it was even more fun.

      • Dan az

        Dave get this my ol lady got a ticket in prescott valley where she works for going 3 miles an hour (under) the speed limit,it was posted 25mph.No kidding!I never go there anymore.

      • http://none Stephen Tareila

        Did she pay? She should not have paid. Your wife should have fought it. These octogenarians in NYC should fight in court if they think they are right. Otherwise your wife and the 2 old ladies are part of the problem also. Definitely boycott this place in AZ but call or write(better) the chief executive officer(Mayor) first. It may work. If not call the AZ legislators and the Governor’s office. Call the Press. Write editorials.

        I used to buy wholesale in NYC for resale in my state(CT). I fought 2 tickets in their Manhattan “traffic courts?” and beat one.

        As for the tickets on refuse, you must understand just how great the trash disposal job is in NYC. Those newspapers probably would have been separated from her garbage if disposed at her apt, condo, or co/op and eventually sold rather than ending up in the trash. There are transportation and weight costs for disposal of trash in many places especially cities. For NYC it is enormous.
        However, the sanitation worker’s attitude and remarks were way out of line. The lady should make an official complaint to his superiors and see the matter to completion! A courteous warning and expanation(2 minutes maximum) of the law should have been all that was given to her. That so many tickets are being issued lends support to the idea that there are quotas and that revenue enhancement is the goal. So, go to court and explain courteously but firmly and STAND for YOUR RIGHTS. And VOTE likewise.

        Also protest to your legislators. If some don’t like our nanny states’ seatbelt and other laws–then protest-call the legislators.
        I put on my seatbelt where required(in New England the states are close to each other, so I unbuckle when in the free state of New Hampshire).
        Maine just elected a Republican House, Senate and Governor. Maine hasn’t done that in nearly 60 years. Now we’ll see what can be done and they’ve started some very good things. So vote for freedom loving candidates, communicate with your legislators, and fight unjust tickets, fines, etc. It is YOUR DUTY to do so!!

      • http://AOL.com Ray

        Reading about this abuse of law enforcement in NYC and the comments about Prescott Valley, Arizona, abuses gets my dandruff up! On that, I pose another question: With the proponderance of lawsuits against government agencies and departments at all levels-and the government can’t be winning them all-why are such civil litigations apparently NOT having an impact on these ever-increasing opressive police state tatic’s? I am a victum of police brutality and I sued the police successfully. But it didn’t reform the law enforcement brutal actions!!

      • DaveH

        Ray,
        Because it isn’t their money they spend to defend themselves.

      • DaveH

        Speaking of spitting, I wonder how long it will be before they do forensic analysis on found spit to determine by DNA analysis who the dastardly perp was?
        Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.

  • Devasahayam

    New York City was a fine place when Fiorello LaGuardia was mayor–but is now a tip (landfill). The worker was cent-percent WRONG in fining a resident for tossing rubbish into a dustbin–the fact that she walked to the bin, she was a pedestrian.

  • Pat Bright

    I am wondering what the fine would be for just throwing the trash on the sidewalk? Both individuals did the right thing by finding an appropriate container, yet the idiots from the sanitation department fined them !

    • DaveH

      It’s all about revenue raising for their gang, the biggest one in the land.

    • Christin

      Pat Bright,

      Great point!
      That’s exactly what I was thinking… those examples show the people being responsible throwing their trash in the appropriate container instead of littering.

      Will have to share this with my spouse as he used to take our big trash to a dumpster in a shopping center rather than wait for months for the garbage pick-up to take it… can’t imagine what they would have fined him and how many days he would have had to serve.

      Crazies with “Power and weapons” in the Sanitation Dept and Police Dept… be wary folks. Small infractions and even what used to be misdemeanors are now CRIMINAL CRIMES and you will see the inside of the Criminal Courts of Injustice.

      My spouse also parked in a Handicapped spot as his partner told him to hurry up and get in the building to help him do payroll as their were a dozen guys there to get paid… the only parking space left was a handicapped spot and he got a ticket. Do you guys know it is a criminal offense to park in a handicapped spot, now… WOW???

      The Police State is here… alive and well… and we are at its mercy… instead of God’s.

      • Kate8

        Christin – The more surveillance capabilities we have, the more thing there are that will become crimes.

        They are getting us used to being harrassed and afraid. Fear is the greatest tool of control there ever was. Besides, there will always come a breaking point, when frustration and anger can be controlled no longer, and violence erupts. Then they REALLY clamp down.

        And it’s something like these things that will be the last straw. It’s always the “small” things that are the triggers.

      • Dan az

        Like waco!

      • Christin

        Kate8,

        I have already been harassed by HPD LEO and I am already afraid.

        Surveillance and cop car TAPES can be ERASED where they do not want the conversation and their lies to be heard, erased where they do not want the sounds to be heard, and erased where they do not want their roughing up of a citizen to be seen… and still the citizen pays. They can sweep you off the street and throw you in jail on hyped up charges even if you are just a mom going to pick up your two elementary children from Christian school with grapes in the front seat for a snack at 3 in the afternoon. You are guilty until you prove your innocence.

        Since when is it legal for a cop to tamper with evidence?

        They are ABOVE the LAW… that is why they are making/or have made it illegal to video them in action.

        The evil ones only win by cheating, otherwise they’d be losers.

      • DaveH

        I know it would be a pain in the neck, but maybe we need to start carrying IC recorders (very small) around with us and activate them upon being pulled over.

      • Kate8

        DaveH – That’s a great idea. I wonder how many times it would take before a law gets passed making recording officers during any kind of stop illegal.

      • DaveH

        Bipolar?

      • Dan az

        Dave
        Not trying to show my ignorance but what is a IC recorder?

      • Kate 8

        Dan az – I don’t know what an IC recorder is, either.

        I assume DaveH’s “bipolar” remark was for me.

        What a guy.

      • DaveH
  • Larry Hearold

    Problem is, WE ELECT THEM or elect the ones that appoint them. Blind leading the blind, or is it idiots electing idiots! Try getting more than 3 people to agree that its a screwed up government and you may have to get a permit for a protest.

    • DaveH

      And that problem goes back to our propaganda education. Exactly the reason we need to get the Government out of our Children’s education.
      They’ve been propagandizing the kids for at least the last 150 years. That is the primary problem we need to focus on.
      To find out just how propagandized we were, read these two books by Thomas DiLorenzo — “The Real Lincoln” and “Lincoln Unmasked”.

      Here’s one:
      http://mises.org/store/Real-Lincoln-The-P172.aspx

      • DaveH
      • Christin

        DaveH,

        You are right about the ‘propagandizing’ of our youth.
        The left loons are teaching our children well… through TV, not just school.

        My two sons were watching ‘Scooby Do’ on TV last month and much to my surprise the character Velma said, “Oh, there’s my favorite Revolutionary.” as she came face to face with a ‘Che’ look alike… WOW was I shocked.

        I asked my boys if they new what revolutionaries were and told them that this Che character was a mass murderer who was now dead and definitely NOT one to make friends with or seek out for info or help.

        On another show they were talking about ‘protesting’… UGH… and my youngest son said, “What’s the problem you protest to get something,” … Double UGH… and I had to change the channel again. I told them that the only time one should protest is when one’s FREEDOMS and LIBERTIES and RIGHTS granted by God as stated in the Founding Papers: Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, and Bill of Rights… are being taken away… like the Tea Parties do.

        I scrutanize their TV watching, but it is full of evil and lies as well as dumbing down junk.

        Yesterday, we went outside to water and played in the sprinkler and they played in the mud and made dams and ponds like the farmers do to collect rain water for their cattle and horses.

        Today we are playing board games…

      • Stuntman

        Now I can’t even let my daughter watch Scooby-Doo anymore without having to worry about leftwing propaganda? Must be a newer episode since all the old stuff we have on DVD looks pretty harmless (except for all the scary monsters). Time to make like Cactus Ed and shoot the TV.

        Me and a co-worker also got expensive tickets while working in NYC recently for not wearing seltbelts. I wasn’t even driving. Got the impression that’s how the cops get money to pay for their salaries. It would have been more honest of him to have just pulled out his gun and robbed us since that’s what he was essentially doing. At least out here in the west they won’t pull you over for just that. If they nailed you for speeding or something else, they might tack a no-seatbelt fine on top of it, but I don’t know anybody who’s been pulled over for that alone.

      • AfricanQueen

        You are so right!! I happened to be flipping through the channels and came across a recent episode of Bewitch and they were arguing about the constitution. I thought it to be strange and decided to watch the whole episode. In the end, a character (I believe it was Thomas Jefferson)came out and spoke about the constitution and basically said that although it was written during his time that he would not want it to be applied in the same way in the current time. He basically was saying that it was a living and breathing document needing to change according to the current environment. My husband and I both looked at each other in shock!!

      • DaveH

        I think you’re right, Stuntman, it is nothing more than a revenue raising scheme by the Big Government Gang.
        The Government has absolutely no business protecting us from ourselves.
        For Personal Responsibility, Individual Liberty, Limited Government, Free Markets, and Peace — Vote Libertarian:
        http://libertarianparty.org/platform

      • Christin

        Yes, Stuntman, the ‘Scooby Do’ was one of the new ones.
        I think all the Scooby Do’s have scary pictures and themes and for many years my youngest couldn’t watch them.

        Garbage it… garbage out…

        As far as wearing seat belts while driving is concerned, we have to wear them in our state (TX) or get a ticket… what state is it that you live and don’t have to wear them by law?

        Our Freedom as adults to do as we think best even if that will not harm anyone else is now gone… the gov will do the thinking for you… and that is really scary as they are Communist loons.

      • Bleh
      • DaveH

        On seatbelts.
        1) The Government has no business protecting you from yourself.
        2) If somebody isn’t afraid of losing their life, is the prospect of a seat belt fine going to scare them?
        Wake up sheeple out there. Seat belt laws are strictly revenue raising measures for an out of control Government.

      • Christin

        DaveH,

        Calm down, Dave… I’m NOT a sheeple just because I follow the unjust laws… and I am awake.

        By LAW we have to wear a seat belt or be fined… I don’t know about you, but I don’t have the money or time to pay huge fines or go to Criminal Court to protest these freedomless laws.

        Many years ago (in the early 80′s) I was in a car accident when driving out of town in the rain. My small vehicle hydroplaned on the wet road and I did a 180 and rolled over in the fields a few times off the highway and I was not wearing a seat belt. I pushed myself in my seat by holding onto the steering wheel real tight. I was cut, banged up a lot, and smashed my car, but I did not get thrown from through the windshield nor die.

        Wearing a seat belt is pretty smart and I want my boys to do so… that does not make me a sheeple. I am sorry it is a forced law, but there are MORE dangerous things to endure than wearing a seatbelt…

      • DaveH

        Christin,
        What in the world made you think I was talking about you personally?
        When I make a comment, I don’t feel the need to carefully exclude the surrounding commenters. Do I need to with you? If you read the comment I said “wake up sheeple out there”.
        I’m talking about the people who support such laws. And I don’t care if seatbelts are preferred by you or not. That’s your choice. That’s why I’m Libertarian. I don’t make other peoples’ choices for them. Get it?

      • meteorlady

        Christine: It’s all still a “freedom” that has been taken away. I ride a motorcycle and wear a helmet, but I don’t believe it’s the government’s business to require me to do so. It’s my body, my right and my decision.

      • Christin

        Dave H.,

        If people do not care about one another then that will be the fall of man…

        …and so it will go the same with the Libertarian party… Get it.

        Meteorlady,

        If you read my post, I clearly say the SEATBELT LAWS are “freedomless laws” and “I am sorry they are ‘forced laws’.”

        I get it.

      • Void1972

        Another interesting book, “Lies My Teacher Told Me”.

      • Kate8

        It’s a good thing Bush came along because it gave us someone else besides Lincoln to blame for all of America’s ills.

      • DaveH

        Looks good, Void. I’ll have to get a copy and read it.

        http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0684818868

        Be sure to read several of the reader reviews at Amazon before judging whether to read it or not, as the first editorial review might turn away Conservatives, since the reviewer thinks it will “please Liberals and infuriate Conservatives”. From reading the reader reviews, I think that statement may be very misleading, and the actual case might even be the opposite.

      • DaveH

        You’ve really been well-propagandized, haven’t you Kate? Don’t be afraid to lift the veil. It won’t bite.

      • Kate8

        DaveH – Just your bullyish attitude and your nasty putdowns turns me off to anything you have to say to me.

        Whether you are right or wrong, you really should read more than one book, or one author, before forming such solid opinions.

        The truth is, there is ample evidence that nearly ALL of our founders, and those who came after, were Freemasons and practitioners of the occult. It seems that America was founded, not so much on Christian ideals, as occult ones, toward an idea of America eventually becoming the New Atlantis. While we may consider this a crazy idea, it would appear entirely possible that our early leaders pretended to be of Christian bent in order to futher their goals among a Christian populous.

      • DaveH

        You’re the bully, Kate.
        You bully Karolyn constantly. And you’re bullying me right now.
        Did Karolyn sell you her magic mirror?

      • DaveH

        Funny, Kate, that you would consider me asking you to lift the veil as bullying. For my entire life, I’ve endured your people robbing me blind, bossing me around, even telling me what I can and can’t do with my own body and property. And you have the nerve to whine about me asking you to wake up?
        Get real.

      • DaveH

        By the way, Cinderella, you stated “Whether you are right or wrong, you really should read more than one book, or one author, before forming such solid opinions”.
        Where do you get such BS? You have no idea what I’ve read or haven’t read. I can tell you that you wouldn’t stand a chance against me in a GRE examination. I’ve got 2 four-year degrees, and I’ve spent most of my adult life reading about investments, economics, and politics.
        I’ll wager that you haven’t even read one of the 3 books I’ve mentioned, yet you have the nerve to rank my opinions.

      • Vigilant

        Kate8,

        Oh oh! You’ve incurred the wrath of DAVE, the man who believes he’s king of this forum. He’s a legend in his own mind.

        Pay no attention to him. In his “educated idiot” mind, Lincoln is responsible for everything wrong with America. He’s so obsessed with it, you’ll find a link to DiLorenzo’s hate-filled propaganda in almost every forum. Dave reads two anti-Lincoln books and concludes that that’s all there is to know about him. A closed mind if I ever saw one.

        With regard to the DiLorenzo screeds, I quote Dave: “”Be sure to read several of the reader reviews at Amazon before judging whether to read it or not…” That includes the enlightening (and correct) bad reviews as well.

        BTW, King Dave enjoys citing his degrees, as if that makes him some kind of expert. LOL! I could (and do) run circles around him on almost any subject, especially history, in which he’s woefully propagandized and deficient. I have as many degrees and a whole wealth more of life experience than he has, served my country for 38 years and love my country, something Dave finds it convenient to belittle. Patriotism for him is a ploy to get us in line with big government.

        I would counsel Dave to take the advice of Will Rogers: “After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

        “The moral: When you’re full of bull, keep your mouth shut.”

      • meteorlady

        Kate dear – Bush did not initially create the No Child Left Behind act.

        The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, signed into law by President Bush on Jan. 8, 2002, was a reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, the central federal law in pre-collegiate education. The ESEA, first enacted in 1965 and last reauthorized in 1994, encompasses Title I, the federal government’s flagship aid program for disadvantaged students.

        So you see what you all blame on Bush isn’t at all something he did. He just reauthorized it and gave it a new name. Now your current President is screwing with it yet again. Some day it will be gone and education will probably work well again.

      • meteorlady

        Vigilent: I find DaveH at least give me facts instead and reasonable explanations of his views instead of useless rants about others on this board. Meanwhile you spend a lot of time writing words that are meaningless and insulting along with promoting your accomplishments. Jealous?

      • Kate 8

        meteorlady – You haven’t been around much in a while, so I know you aren’t familiar with the ongoing “discussion” with DaveH and his Lincoln obsession. My Bush comment was tongue-in-cheek. I’m not a Bush fan, but neither do I blame him…or Lincoln, for that matter, for every loss of freedom that has befallen this country. If I were to blame, it would be we the people, for allowing ourselves to be so duped by the controllers, educational indoctrination and the media.

        As for ‘no child left behind’, ????? I never even mentioned that.

        DaveH is so critical about anyone talking about things he doesn’t believe in..say, God, and covert government activities. He’s jumped on me (and others) numerous times for not agreeing with him. So it seems that he feels okay about shoving his ideas down our throats, but he’s completely closed to anyone else’s ideas, to the point of being fascistic. And he claims to be Libertarian. Hah!

        I’m beginning to believe that he has a pathological problem. He feels that “people like me” have caused him grief in his life, which seems totally centered around money (which appears to be his god). He protests so loudly and strongly about infringement on his “liberarian” beliefs, yet he cannot allow anyone else their own beliefs. Me thinks he dost protest too much. In other words, he can’t face the truth: that he is just another wanna-be tyrant.

        He has continued to throw out vitriol toward me ever since I first questioned his all-out demonization of Lincoln. I didn’t even say I didn’t believe it was true. I just suggested that authors write according to their own biases, and that it’s good to find out what others have to say before judging so completely. Besides, it’s far in the past, none of us were there, and perhaps we’d be better served to focus more on what to do now rather than dwell so tenaciously on the past.

      • Kate 8

        And DaveH, where I got that you “only read one book” is from YOU. You stated awhile back that you don’t read books, but you read THAT book. It seems now that this DiLorenzo, or whatever his name is, has become your guru.

        I don’t care what kind of credentials you claim to have, your world is small as is your mind. You seem to blame others for whatever your plight, as if the rest of us don’t have any problems. I’m here to tell you, you don’t have a clue.

        You are one angry guy, DaveH, and you lash out at anyone who dares question your “wisdom”. All I did was try to have a discussion about certain topics, and you attack me personally. Doesn’t seem to much difference in your approach and say…our friend eddie’s.

        It’s obvious that, once you’ve turned on someone, you don’t ever let it go. It’s no big deal to me. I don’t need for you, or anyone, to agree with me about everything. I’ve tried to be cordial but, as Vigilant said, I’ve incurred your wrath.

        So be it. And good luck to you.

      • Vigilant

        meteorlady,

        You may feel a simpering loyalty to support DaveH, that’s fine. When he continuously and purposely ignores the facts and figures I’ve provided him over time on the Lincoln controversy, don’t presume to tell me who’s short on facts and long on insults.

        Kate8 is 100% correct. DaveH has a pathological compulsion to belittle anyone, including a Constitutional Conservative like myself, unless you agree 100% with his assertions. I predict others, over time, will see just what’s in store for them if they dare to challenge DaveH on even one detail of his ravings.

        He seems to have a thing against smart, thinking women like Kate8. No doubt his ex-wife was a smart, thinking woman who wised up and left him.

        It may be of interest to you that on three occasions I tried to bury the hatchet with Dave but he wouldn’t even honor the requests with a response. That’s the kind of man we’re talking about. Moreover, he (like you) accuses me of being an insulter when he was the one who started it. I took it for a while and then said, what the hell, I’ll fight fire with fire. Then, of course, he couldn’t get off his high horse and instead of addressing the facts I provided, focused, Alinsky-style, on the insults.

        Jealous? How could anyone be jealous of someone so far inferior to themself in mental abilities?

      • Kate 8

        DaveH – I’m sorry you have so much bitterness toward your fellow man. That’s how it is when you have nowhere to go except man…he will disappoint you every time.

        You might want to listen to what Vigilant and I are saying to you. Everytime we’ve had a debate (if you can call it that), you have not addressed a single point I’ve made but, instead, went right for the insults and belittling. Dave, that is true Progressive (Aninsky) style. It makes no sense to be Taliban about Libertarianism.

        I’ve always tried to be respectful to you, Dave, because that is how friends treat one another. Apparently you are a “my way or the highway” sort of guy. Well, I’ve known a few of those. It didn’t work for them, and it won’t work for you where I am concerned. And it is not the way to try to save our nation, either. We have too much of that now.

        If I’ve said anything to personally offend you, I do apologize. If it makes you feel better to demean and belittle me, then go ahead and get it off your chest. I’m able to take it, because I know who I am and what I stand for, and I don’t need your approval, though it does sadden me that it has come to this. I had thought better of you.

      • DaveH

        I never stated I’ve only read one book, Kate. That was your husband, Vigilant, making those claims. I merely didn’t answer his useless questions because, as I told him before, my reading list has no bearing on whether or not DiLorenzo’s books are factual. Somehow Mr. Logical can’t figure that out.
        In fact, Vigilant quoted DiLorenzo when it suited his purposes, even though much earlier he had claimed DiLorenzo was a fraud. What a hypocrite.
        The bottom line is that you and Vigilant can’t counter DiLorenzo’s facts with legitimate statements, so instead you choose the route commonly used by Liberals — Personal Attacks.
        You are losers.

      • DaveH

        For those who are new to the board and want to see why I don’t bother responding to Vigilant’s inane comments, follow this thread and see how low he will stoop:
        http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/civil-liberty/blacks-picket-the-naacp/

      • DaveH
      • DaveH

        All the readers need to do, Kate, is follow this thread to see that you are the one launching the vicious personal attacks.

      • DaveH

        Seek help, Vigilant.
        You too, Kate.

      • DaveH

        What strikes me as funny about Vigilant is that, in his imagined intelligence, by attacking me every time I encourage people to read DiLorenzo’s books, he is actually making people more curious about what the fuss is. So they are more likely to read the books and have their eyes opened.
        Thanks for that, Vigilant.

      • Kate 8

        My God, DaveH. Look at yourself, and the lengths you will go to prove yourself “right”. Even saving old comments made on this board to use for future ammunition. Good grief. You getting to be kind of pathetic.

        Let me tell you something, Mister. I could care less what you throw at me, or what other posters think. You are behaving like a spoiled child. I suspected you had a pathological problem, and now I’m sure of it.

        Take your infantile tantrums and stew in them. You are one sorry soul, and I don’t have time for nonsense like this coming from someone who was supposed to be one of the good guys.

        As I said, I would have expected better from you. Obviously, I was wrong.

      • Kate 8

        Well, DaveH, out of curiousity I checked out the links you posted and, for the life of me, I can’t figure out what your point is. Is that really the best you’ve got? Because I found nothing I said that was in any way hateful or attacking you or anyone else. If anything, you’ve just made a bigger case against yourself.

        And yes, I do call karolyn on her foolish comments at times because she is so outrageous. So do you! But I comment on her comments. I don’t call her names, except once, when I said she was an airhead. You attack liberals with much more vehemence than I, dear boy.

        Do you really think that posters here are going to care enough about rallying behind you to go back and read past postings? Can you see how immature that is? People form their own opinions as they go, and how childish of you to try to enlist other posters against me and Vigilant. Who, btw, I have also debated, and he has never flown into a tizzy over it, because we realize that debating issues is not personal.

        You have a problem there, Dave. Anyone who goes so over the top when someone disagrees with him really does need to get help.

      • DaveH

        For the unblindered curious folks:
        http://mises.org/daily/607

      • DaveH

        Personal attack, after personal attack, after personal attack, and she still thinks she is lily white. Unbelievable.

      • Vigilant

        Laughingly, Daveh SAYS, “What strikes me as funny about Vigilant is that, in his imagined intelligence, by attacking me every time I encourage people to read DiLorenzo’s books, he is actually making people more curious about what the fuss is. So they are more likely to read the books and have their eyes opened.
        Thanks for that, Vigilant.”

        Apparently, DaveH suffers from Alzeimer’s disease. I have actually ENCOURAGED people to read DiLorenzo’s excrement, along with REAL history (it’s callled “source documents,” dummy). But Dave will have nothing to do with the actual words and actions of the players and power brokers who were on the stage at the time leading up to the Civil War. He prefers the words of a slavery apologist and non-historian’s second and third hand cherry-picking of documents that happen to suit his agenda.

        Yes, by all means read DiLorenzo’s pseudohistory, but I would recommend going to Bibio.com instead of Amazon, unless you want to put royalties in the pockets of DiLorenzo and, I suspect, commissions in Dave’s pockets. I have encouraged this before, but Dave’s feeble mind has built mental roadblocks to convenieniently forget that I have done so.

        “in his imagined intelligence?” How about mid 130s? What’s your IQ, sonny?

      • Vigilant

        King Dave says, “The bottom line is that you and Vigilant can’t counter DiLorenzo’s facts with legitimate statements, so instead you choose the route commonly used by Liberals — Personal Attacks.”

        What a freakin’ lie! Dave feels that the source documents have no meaning at all in the discussions about historical truth. I have countered DiLorenzo’s lies with the actual source documents of the period, and Dave has studiously both ignored the historical record and resorted to calumny and denigration as a weak form of response.

        You want to talk about lies and slander? DaveH is your man.

      • DaveH

        So, Kate, and Vigilant. Instead of all the blustering and personal attacks, why don’t you simply list the books that you have read and give the readers of this blog a chance to see things as you do?
        Explain to them why they should take the word of a known liar and slanderer, Vigilant, over that of Loyola University Professor and author Thomas DiLorenzo:
        http://mises.org/fellow.aspx?id=16

      • Jay

        Vigilant: Yes, by all means read DiLorenzo’s pseudohistory, but I would recommend going to Bibio.com instead of Amazon, unless you want to put royalties in the pockets of DiLorenzo and, I suspect, commissions in Dave’s pockets.

        Vigilant, Bibio.com just happens to carry a considerable number of DiLorenzo’s published books. Does Bibio.com not care then, that they are promoting, and in essence concurring with DiLorenzo’s, as you stated, pseudo-history?

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        KATE8,

        FRANKLIN,WASHINGTON, AND THE FOUNDING FATHERS ALSO BELONGED TO THE ROSICRUCIANS AN ORGANIZATION OLD AS ANCIENT MESOPOTAMIA AND ANCIENT EGYPT.

        http://www.reversespins.com/rosicrucian.html

      • Kate 8

        coal – I am aware of the assertions that our founders were members of the Freemasons, and possibly Rosacrucians, and stated so above. In fact, it seems quite evident, judging by the symbolism in all of DC architecture, seals, etc., that this is, indeed, true. The idea was that America would, in due time, become the New Atlantis.

      • Kate 8

        DaveH, Seriously, man. You are losing it. I say this in all sincerety, you might want to take a break for a couple of days and mellow out. Do something soothing and regroup your mind. This stuff is getting to you. I did awhile back, when my computer was on the fritz, and it worked wonders for my stress level.

        I defy you to point out even one personal attack on you by me. The only personal attacks have been on your part, Dave, and I’ve tried my best to reason with you, because I have no desire for this to continue. It’s just too weird.

      • Kate 8

        Vigilant – I just want to thank you for being the only person to stand up in my defense against the wrath of Dave. I know it’s because you are in the same camp :) , and it’s a lonely place to be around here.

        While it’s human nature to rally behind the bullies with the most bluster (after all, who wants to be another target), it’s a sad commentary on what lies in our near future, when neighbor turns against neighbor.

        You and I have not always seen exactly eye to eye, but so what? As with Dave, there is more that we DO agree on, and there is the issue of mutual respect. It would also seem that meeting with diverse opinions would be a given on forums like this and, if one can’t take it…Well, anyway, isn’t that the whole point of a forum?

        Godspeed.

      • Karolyn

        Kate & Vigilant – Of course, everyone knows that we often sit on opposite sides of the fence, and I certainly have been the brunt of a great deal of vitriol and denigration. I just wanted to say that I have also found it unnerving that even when I come up on the same side as Dave, he STILL finds something to put me down about. As you inferred, Kate, it seems as though he doesn’t let go and holds a grudge. It really doesn’t matter what anybody has to say about me. I am confident within myself and hold fast to my beliefs just like everybody else. It is truly unfortunate that nobody wants to give any quarter to those who disagree with them. There just might be an inkling of understanding.

      • Kate 8

        karolyn – You certainly have the right to your own beliefs, like any of us.

        You are right. We shouldn’t put each other down, no matter how much we might disagree. No matter how much we all think we know, the joke is that we don’t know squat. We can debate our points of view, but we shouldn’t launch personal attacks.

        Since you are more liberal, surely you expect that your point of view would be suspect here. But I guarantee you that you are treated more respectfully here than we conservatives are on liberal sites. That is a difference between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives actually believe in free speech.

        Thanks for saying something here. Maybe we should all strive to be more respectful from now on. I certainly will.

        God bless. And may He open all of our eyes.

      • Jay

        I think its important to keep in mind that we are writing to one another. We cannot convey, in our writing, physical gestures, facial expressions, subtle nuances and controlled cadences in our speech, we’re unable to observe each others physical/body language. We are communicating via the written word(s), which can only express thoughts/opinions that can be easily misconstrued.

      • DaveH

        Okay, Vigilant, here’s your chance.
        You said “You want to talk about lies and slander? DaveH is your man.”
        Prove that I lied and slandered you.
        I can prove that you lied and slandered me.
        Just go here:
        http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/civil-liberty/blacks-picket-the-naacp/
        Then do a find on “apologist” on that page and follow the thread.
        Notice in his final comment on the thread (after being chastized by Libertytrain) he says “I admit my last comments were abusive and unnecessary”. Abusive? Unnecessary? How about a lie and slanderous?
        Notice also, how he plays the semantics game instead of fessing up and admitting that he just plain lied. This guy will never admit to fault no matter how you pin him down. And he will use whatever under-handed techniques he can muster in his fanatical attempts to win.
        His mistake? Calling Libertarians “slavery apologists”. Libertarian philosophy centers around voluntary contracts. We believe no man has a right to subjugate another unless, perhaps, the subject freely contracts to be subjugated. The last thing any true Libertarian would be is a “slavery apologist”. If Vigilant was half as intelligent as he thinks he is, he would know that.

      • Vigilant

        “The last thing any true Libertarian would be is a “slavery apologist”.

        Then you, my fine friend, are not a true Libertarian.

        As I said before, ANYONE who uses the bogus “state’s rights” argument to bolster the subjugation of a whole race of people is, wittingly or unwittingly, an apologist for slavery. If you were half as intelligent as you think you are, you would know that.

        Get it through your thick skull, idiot, that as far as the South’s actions leading up to the Civil War, STATE’S RIGHTS = PROMOTION OF SLAVERY. There is absolutely no way around it. THE SOURCE DOCUMENTS PROVE IT CATEGORICALLY. When you and DiLorenzo defend those “rights,” you and he are indeed apologists for slavery.

        As for your incessant linking to old arguments, you still don’t get it. Repeat: NO one gives a damn. And as for lying, when you called me a a “plant” and a liberal some time ago, you knew damn well that wasn’t true. You’re not just a liar, you’re a damn liar.

      • Vigilant

        Jay says,

        “Vigilant, Bibio.com just happens to carry a considerable number of DiLorenzo’s published books. Does Bibio.com not care then, that they are promoting, and in essence concurring with DiLorenzo’s, as you stated, pseudo-history?”

        Jay, Biblio sells books, not political philosophy. I’m sure you could find “Mein Kampf,” “The Communist Manifesto” and lots of books on Scientology, but that doesn’t mean the bookseller subscribes to those points of view.

        I much prefer to use Biblio.com to purchase books from the “enemy camp,” because it’s the secondary market and the author doesn’t receive royalties for the sale. I’ve purchased both of DiLorenzo’s books, Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals” and Howard Zinn’s “history” of America through Biblio. I wouldn’t put money in the pockets of these propagandists and charlatans for the life of me, but it affords me the chance to see what’s in the minds of these idiots.

        The binding was broken on the used copy of “The Real Lincoln.” I suspect the previous owner threw it against the wall.

      • Kate 8

        Come on, can’t we just give it up already?

        How about just agreeing to disagree. This is getting ugly, and is going nowhere.

        You just can’t shove your opinions down people’s throats. They’ll balk every time. I would think we’d have all learned that by now.

      • Jay

        Vigilant, my apologies for my comment, it wasn’t called for. I had no business sticking my nose in the exchange between you and Dave.

    • DaveH

      And to learn how Big Government growthers subverted our Founders’ dreams read this one:
      http://mises.org/store/Hamiltons-Curse-P534.aspx

      • Carlucci

        And speaking of that, this came into my email this a.m. Check it out:

        http://www.sovereignman.com/

        This makes me furious. Why are we continuing to feed these relentless parasites? Right now it says “voluntary”, but you can bet your bippy that will change. The same idiots who would “volunteer” to pay this are the same sheeple who stand in line to let the pervs at the TSA either grope them and their kids or give them high doses of radiation.

        Please send that link to your email list so people will be aware.

      • Dan az

        Carlucci
        At first I thought it was a joke!But not to my surprise its true,they actually made it a bill and submitted it to the house ways and means commitee .I doubt it would go any further but who knows!The fact that it was a bill just means that we need to flush now!We need to take names and kick some butts out for that one.For those that want to read the bill here it is.http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:h2411:

      • Kate8

        Gee, do you suppose anyone in Congress or any other government fascist now in charge would volunteer any of THEIR paychecks?

        What nerve.

        I swear we are living in Wonderland.

      • Dan az

        Hey Kate
        you came in late you need to see this one that was on here this morning.I would like to see you put your two cents in :)
        http://www.personalliberty.com/news/republicans-criticize-obama-for-transferring-terror-suspect-to-u-s-800545641/#comment-485521
        You are not going to believe it really!

      • vicki

        Bummer. Link goes to a blank page. Entering in the bill number at the home page of the site gets a similar blank page.

        what is really annoying about the proposal is the wasted effort employers would have to go thru. There is already withholding and you can change it to withhold more and then tell uncle to “keep the change” at tax time.

        So this bill is just another waste of time and resources.

      • DaveH

        The easiest way to get there is to just pick the HR 2411 link in Carlucci’s article.
        Or you can go to http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas
        Then type “reduce america’s debt now” into the search box (without the quotes).

      • Dan az

        Vicki
        There is a EO that got signed by either bush or obumner that allowed the UN to by pass our constitution and let them come in and take anyone from there beds with out warrants and jail them in another country.Can you find it?I have searched for it but didn’t have any luck.I know your good at this so could you post it here? Thanks :)

      • JeffH

        Brother Dan az, no foreign or UN army or police can “legally” come into the US to arrest or take an American from anywhere in US territory. The president can sign a hundred EO’s and that doesn’t change anything without Congressional approval. That doesn’t mean the POTUS wouldn’t try to get it under the radar though.

        Best example is that the UN Small Arms Treaty would be a done deal if Obama could just issue an EO to say so.

      • DaveH

        If we give them more money they will just spend more money. That’s just a fact of political life.
        Look what they did with our Social Security payments. Speaking of that, I keep hearing them talking about doing something about Social Security because they’re running out of money. Bull. Before they touch paying back what they took from us, they need to first get out of all the Unconstitutional programs which they are running, such as DOE (both of them), ATF, HUD, SEC, FCC, ….. and those endless foreign wars. And they need to sell off some of that 30% of land that they hold in the United States and other assets they hold. Creepy Creeps.

        Throw the bums out in 2012!

      • Christin

        DaveH,

        I ‘Second’ that!

      • Bleh

        “And they need to sell off some of that 30% of land that they hold in the United States and other assets they hold.”
        I submit the States that hold that %30 land the fed owns should simply confiscate it and let the Fed suck it up as they shouldn’t have it to begin with.

      • DaveH

        Maybe legitimate, but that would start the next Civil War for sure.

      • Dan az

        Dave
        If we don’t take it back then china is going to foreclose on it.Hillary used it for collateral for china buying our debt.

      • DaveH

        Do you have any references for that Dan?
        Not trying to bust your chops, just curious.

      • Kate8

        Dan az – I remember that, too.

        It happened soon after O usurped…er, assumed office in ’09.

      • Kate 8
      • DaveH

        Okay, let’s look at this. The Chinese lent us $1.2 Trillion. The National Debt is $14.4 Trillion. Our GDP is $14.7 Trillion per year.
        Does anybody think that the Chinese wouldn’t be first to be paid if their loan is indeed collateralized?
        Not that I’m making light of that situation. It’s just one more example of Obama selling our country down the river. But assuming we don’t borrow any more from them, we could easily pay off the debt if we shrunk Government back down to its Constitutionally mandated size.
        Also keep in mind that Obama is scamming the Chinese as much as he is us, because as more money is created by the Federal Reserve, we will be paying them off with much cheaper dollars.
        An even more serious problem is the nearly tripling of our money supply by the Federal Reserve. Once all that money starts coming out of the woodworks (and it will eventually) our consumer prices are going to skyrocket.

    • http://www.awakenedavenger.wordpress.com Roamntic Violence

      100% I agree. I’ve been saying the same thing for the last 20 years and still, nobody gets it; maybe slow cognitive development. BTW, I don’t vote but I’m willing to bet that by November 2012, there’ll be plenty of idiots to take my place. Time for emigration or revolution because nothing is going to change unless it is forced..

      1789

      • DaveH

        Revolutions rarely produce positive results. Even ours, which thanks to a few learned men produced positive results, was subverted in less than 70 years by power hungry men.
        If we can fight and die, wouldn’t it be smarter to use that energy to take our country back by educating our ignorant neighbors, friends, and relatives and putting Freedom loving leaders in office?

      • Fina B.

        YOU CAN’T FIX STUPID! You cannot educate people who don’t want to be educated.

      • DaveH

        You sure can’t make people think by force. It is unfortunate that so many people can only learn by negative experiences, but even then they won’t learn if somebody hasn’t put the seed of knowledge in their brains so they can recognize what has caused their negative experiences.
        It’s a lot easier to fix things peacefully then to fix them at the point of a gun.
        http://mises.org/daily/5363/The-Next-American-Revolution-Wont-Be-Like-the-First

      • Kate 8

        True enough, Dave. And it always begins with US.

      • Al Sieber

        Kate, I live in N.W. Ariz. near Nevada and Harry Reid is pushing selling land to China to build a solar electric plant in Nevada, so here goes more of our land to China. and they’re selling our mineral, water, etc. thanks for the link.

      • Kate 8

        Al – I saw a speech awhile back given by a Chinese official. I think I even posted it a year or so ago.

        Like the Islamic nations and the Mexicans, the Chinese covet US soil. They want our country for their expansion of their population and their industry, and this man was clear that they intend to remove the Americans as we are not part of the package.

        It seems that many are hellbent on the takeover of America from within, and the battle may well be, not with Americans, but between those vying for conquest. After all, our government is virtually HANDING US OVER to our enemies, piece by piece, and it seems that there is little we can do to stop it.

      • Al Sieber

        Well Kate, it looks like we’re in for a fight.

      • ipsd48

        Dave,
        It was subverted in under TEN years, which is why the constitution was written

  • tim

    The federal dept of education needs to be shut down. Ever since they took over the education of our children has gone to hell!!!!!!

    • Jimmie

      You’re absolutely right Tim – I am a retired teacher and I saw a lot of misuse of funds by the administration and I am sure it’s like that everywhere – also, as long as you kiss up to the head man you can pretty well do what you want – teach or not. I come from the old school where you do the best you can. I had a student ask me why I worried about the kids not paying attention, it didn’t matter what I did, why didn’t I do like some of the others, come in, take it easy, pick up my paycheck and go home. I told him, I was being paid to do a job and I was going to do it. He later became a teacher.

      • Jimmie

        I should have added that there are other dedicated teachers – great teachers I might add – they are not favored at the school. They are the ones that have high expectations from their students, don’t cut them any slack and won’t pass them because they are told to….it’s not easy for them.

    • Bob Marshall

      Tim, I agree! Our education system is the worst in the so called free world. This is in a government report. Not a fact of which we should be proud.

    • moonbeam

      If you think that’s bad, you should witness the sham educational system here in Florida, where the children are between 2-5 years behind everyone else in the country.

      I chaparoned a field trip for my grand daughter’s 4th grade class some years ago. The teacher, who ignorantly did not acknowledge me at all, did a small lesson before leaving on the field trip. It took all my strength to keep from exploding. The lesson was doing things I did in kindergarten way a thousand years ago.

      I got so angry I could hardly breathe, but kept my composure. I could NOT believe this 4th grade class was doing a lesson that should have been for preschoolers. Absolutely freaking appalling.

      I was born, raised and educated in Pittsburgh PA where the education was top notch. When in the 4th grade myself, we had a new student in our class who came from Florida. She was supposed to be in the 6th grade, but they put her back in the 4th grade with us. She was tested and found to not be academically prepared for the 6th grade.

      I have never forgotten that after all these years. It is etched in my brain. Must have been one heck of a personal self esteem lesson for her.

      Living here for almost 20 years and seeing with my own two eyes the educational system, I see why these children are so far behind. The ignorance and backwardness I have found is down right unbelievable. I can say for a fact the children are set up to fail Their parents can’t help because they are victims of the same system. In addition, many teachers here are child abusers.

      FACT: They pick a child, mentally and emotionally torture that poor child the whole year and get away with it. I have witnessed this myself.

      Any child who has spent a few years in these schools and moves up north or anywhere else suffers and struggles to keep up. I know of several families who have gone through this.

      Heard from a friend who is moving his family down here in a few weeks. I admonished him to not put his children in this so called Florida educational system. Home school them if he wants them to have a good education. They will not get it here!

      Schools across this nation should be held to a national standard. Here’s another for you:

      My daughter has a BA in writing. Just for grins and giggles, we called University of Pittsburgh to see if her college credits would transfer. Guess what they said? NO! She would have to get her degree here and transfer to Pitt to further her education. She is over $60,000 in debt for a substandard college education she received at the University of South Florida.

      I love living here and you can’t beat the weather. However, I thank God I was not born and raised here. I would be too backward and ignorant to realize my ignorance.

      I remember talking to a guy about this very subject. He told me about his straight A’s he’s getting and how well he was doing. “That’s great!” I said “But up north, your A’s would be C’s and that’s if you were able to catch up to the level the rest of the class is on.”

      And don’t get me started on how bullies are protected here. The one being bullied gets suspended, the bully walks away smelling like a rose and gets to stay in school. I kid you not. Numerous cases of this nature abound. The schools, teachers and principals themselves are afraid of the bullies! Can you believe it?

      If this offends anyone, I can’t help that. Facts are facts. If you are planning to move south with your children who will get educated in these sorry schools, DON’T DO IT! Unless you are going to home school them.

      • libertytrain

        I lived in Naples during my kids’ entire school years, we didn’t experience the same problems you did; I suspect things are different in different areas. I also have experienced many things and went on school trips and it wasn’t like that for my kids. Daughter went to Stetson University; son went to Virginia Tech. I wouldn’t have wanted my kids in a city school up North for anything.

  • s c

    The DoE shotgun raid travesty shouldn’t surprise anyone. When anal retentives get power (elected or appointed), whatever happens next shouldn’t be unexpected. In the case of the DOE, which has been concerned with destroying education in America since 1957, kill it. Abort it. Rip it out of existence, and send its employees to a local DMV, or send them to WalMart, to become doorgreeters.
    Reserve a special sentence for the DoE ‘head.’
    Force him/her to move to a rural area, and appoint him/her to be the new road kill removal specialist.
    That is, after successful completion of road rage etiquette, how to prepare and serve road kill and a quick course on animal identification.
    This is just a suggestion, of course. The possibilities are almost endless. Remember, you’re dealing with someone who is over-educated and over-qualified, and he/she must be re-educated to become a better citizen.

    • Devasahayam

      Actually DoE was established during Dhimmi Carter’s time in 1979–but you are correct on its purposes and what needs to be done about it!

      • Stuntman

        DOE actually stands for Dept. of Energy and has nothing to do with education. ED is used for the US Dept. of Education….

      • ipsd48

        And Dept of Education DOES?

      • Kate 8

        ipsd48 – Good point!

    • http://www.carpmateconsulting.com Dan L

      SC, Do you really want the illiterates at the Department of Education as Wal-Mart greeters? When I ask where the sporting goods department is located, I want to ask someone who understands the question.

      • http://wwww.tombstonelizardmedia.com TombstoneLizard

        ROFLMAO

      • http://AOL.COM FRENCHIE

        VERY VALID POINT YOU’VE GOT THERE, DAN L. ALTHOUGH I DON’T KNOW IF IT WOULD MAKE MUCH OF A REAL DIFFERENCE. EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT THE SPORTING GOODS IS WHERE THEY KEEP THE SHOTGUNS, SO YOU MAY ACTUALLY HAVE A 50-50 CHANCE ON THAT ONE……..

    • Dan az

      sc
      A door greeter? that’s good! :)

    • Old Henry

      S C:

      That was a goodn! Ya made me laugh out loud!

      How ’bout having those DoE goons learn to change watch batteries at WM?

      • Carlucci

        :)

      • http://Henry ipsd48

        That could be a day long operation.
        Tell them ‘watch battery’ and they’d stare at one til closing time.

    • thinkingoutsidethebox

      SC ya made me blow RC out my nose. That is a good un.

  • DaveH

    If she was reading the New York Times, the fine was justified. lol.

    • lkar

      Union?

    • refuse2lose

      Why did she give the goon her info? See, this is the problem with our brainwashed public…. they think that they are forced by law to provide an I.D. whenever they are asked. This is NOT TRUE. And especially NOT TRUE when it’s a freaking trash man.

      WAKE UP AND SMELL THE POLICE STATE

      • cathy w

        i would have walked away from that guy

      • SiliconDoc

        After the TSA, the grannies know they are targets. Let’s not forget the pigs trouncing on the grannies in their own homes during Katrina.
        I kinda doubt 83 yr. old grannie could outrun the government goon, who would have no doubt rifled through the trash bag for an identifying spam letter that was discarded – or run into the apartment complex and demand identification of granny.
        Grannie knew her goose was cooked.
        That’s why I’m for open and concealed carry.
        I would like to see the video where government turd lurker accosts grannie and she gently opens her carry purse and it reveals a substantial .45 she needs to “move out into the open and point toward government turd lurker ” to make room to retrieve her ID.
        In a better world she aims and tells sonny to move on, and he does.

    • Andrea B

      I’m curious how much the fine would’ve been if the old lady had just thrown them on the ground on the OUTSIDE of the can?

      Is it cheaper to just litter???

      Also, did the trash can say ‘Please put litter in it’s place, but only if you’re a pedestrian, and not a resident?’

      And, when a person is out walking around, doesn’t that automatically make them a pedestrian? If not, then is the punishment for hitting a resident different than the punishment for hitting a pedestrian when you’re driving in your car?

      Jeeze…if TPTB keep changing the rules, and changing the wording in the rules, how are We The People supposed to know what is legal and what is not??????

      • cathy w

        i agree andrea b

      • ipsd48

        Andrea,
        We’re NOT

      • Mary

        It’s so many BS in this country we don’t know anymore. Until they get us. This is Predatory Police and now Trash People. What a disgrace!

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