Yes, freedom but not the funds to undermine it. Ironic.

Whoa Sharon… calm down, you’re freaking out for no reason. Mennonites are Christians NOT Muslims. Their form of Christianity was formed in the 16th century and like the Amish and Hutterites, the Mennonites are Anabaptists. Anabaptists shun some common Christian practices like the wearing wedding rings, taking oaths, and participating in civil government. Their lack of participation in civil government (like Jehovah Witnesses) is why they don’t play the anthem. They are definitely not Communists (that’s politics) and they most certainly aren’t Muslims.

Interesting facts to know, Curis. The Goshenites may not be Muslims, however, if they don’t participate in civil government, that means that they take zero funds from any government entity (local, state or national) for any school-related expense including student loans or grants, tax breaks for being a school, funding for research, etc. Not trying to poke holes in your baloon, Curis, I’m just saying that if the Goshen College people do take any funding of any sort, then they are going against their Anabaptist traditions when it is to their advantage. Typical liberals, couldn’t stick to a principle even to save their lives…

Hey YankeeClipper… how do you go from “IF” they take government funding to calling them “typical liberals”? Until you have confirmed that Goshen College takes any form of government funding, your accusation that they are “unprincipled liberals” is premature and nothing but unfounded, unfair and unwarranted speculation. We should find the smoking gun first and find out how much, if any, government money they receive, before we leap to conclusions and start with the name calling.
(By the way it’s Curtis… pretty sad when you can’t spell your own name in the morning!)

Hey Curtis — Just giving the typical “unprincipled liberals” their due in kind — how many unfounded, unresearched and untrue attacks have there been against conservatives in this country over the last 50 years in order to push the liberal agenda? Did I jump to conclusions? You betcha, but I am judging them by their actions. It does not matter what religion they are; it is a sign of respect to be proud to live in the greatest nation the world has ever known. To force people to NOT partake in the playing/singing of out National Anthem is the same as forcing them TO partake. Liberals don’t like to be forced to partake in singing/playing the anthem — conservatives don’t like being forced not to. By the way — good post about the Flyers (I’m a Bruins fan myself — hope they win this year, heehee!).

Hey Yankee Clipper… I understand your frustration, but I think it’s imperative that we take the higher ground and not stoop to the level of unfounded and untrue attacks. I think true context of this story has been buried. They hadn’t played the national anthem since 1957 and briefly reinstated the anthem in January ’10 before reaffirming that it was contrary to their beliefs in February of this year. They’ve been doing it this way for over half a century, why is it suddenly an issue?
I agree with your comment about respect. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had a classmate who would leave the classroom for the playing of the national anthem. While it may have been contrary to her Jehovah Witness religion, it was an empty gesture because the anthem was played in the hallways too. She would return to class for the recitation of the Lord’s Prayer. Even in high school I was an atheist, but I chose to bow my head and show respect to my classmates instead of marching out to the hallway. Respect, understanding and tolerance is what peace is truly about. (Clear boundaries and carrying a big stick helps too.) By the way… good luck to your Bruins, like Goshen College, perhaps the Bruins should switch to God Bless America.

Hey, Curtis. Exactly right — respect, understanding and tolerance — have you ever noticed that when liberals speak of tolerance, they seem to mean tolerance for the things that they want to espouse, but produce massive amounts of intolerance to people who don’t think or act like them? How much violence has been perpetrated against people who are not liberal in their political views? You and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum with respect to religion — judging from your post that you are (or were) an atheist but you and I can agree that to force people to do things against their will is un-American, and I believe that this is what this outcry is all about. Why now after 57 years? Who knows? The point is that is has come to light and must be addressed & debated because it seems to be an issue that is at serious odds with the core of our belief system — the American way of doing things. However, sometimes a little intolerance is necessary, and what I am intolerant of is not the induviduals of Goshen, but their mindset. If they want to separate church & state (which is NOT in the Constitution, by the way), that is their privilege as a private college. What I object to is their forcing of their views on their visiting teams and the supporters of those teams who may want the National Anthem played. Also, not a bad idea, having the Bruins do God Bless America before their games. Couldn’t hurt!

Curtis,
I not too sure about the jehovas not participating in government. I know of a few that are as we converse, getting unemployment!! I also know a couple that vote!!

Ellen,
If things continue the way they are going, the Nobummer doctrine won’t be around much longer. I saw a poll today that says 49% of the voters would vote for someone else and 43% would vote for him again. Well, seeing as how the economy is in its 5th week of downturn, The number voting for him will only go lower!!! Praise Almighty GOD!!!

Push, I think you missed Former Walmart’s point. He was maligning our war-mongering presidents, not the United States. And he was right about WTC 7, it fell in 6.5 seconds, just a tad slower than free fall. Only controlled demolition can bring down a steel-framed building like that. The 571-page 9/11 Commission Report never even mentioned WTC 7, because, without controlled demolition, one the NIST questions: “Why did WTC 7 collapse?” had no answer.

James,

First off let Wally World person say that for himself, after rereading his post i still do not get that.

Secondly, I just have been able to chew and swallow that WTC-7 stuff yet. Too many people would have to be involved in a conspiracy such as that and with any number of people in a group there is always one person who intentionally tells the truth or slips up and lets the cat out of the bag and after ten years that has not happened.

The thing is, is that things happen all the time that seem improbable but it still happens, ever watched ‘I Should not be Alive’?

Should have siad: “secondly i have NOT been…..”

Push, WTC 7 had 81 steel columns, 24 core columns and 57 perimeter columns. Steel melts at 2800 degrees Fahrenheit, and for 3 and 4 weeks after 9/11, molten pools of steel were in the bulding’s basement. The 9/11 Commission Report concentrated on explaining how and why the twin towers fell but didn’t even mention building 7. No steel-framed building has ever fallen down because of fire, that’s why high rise buildings are constructed that way. Even if the fire had been hot enough to weaken the columns, the bulding would not have fallen straight down, it would have rather leaned, and slowly fallen towards the path of least resistance. For the building to fall straight down, all steel columns would have had to reach the same point of weakness simulataneously, which a random fire, such as was reported, was incapable of achieving.

James,
I think YOU missed the biggest problem with FWPs post. In the last paragraph he tells people to go serve in Iraq. Well, I and a lot of others here HAVE served our country, myself in VietNam for eighteen months. Where the heck has HE served??? He should practice what he preaches and then maybe HE will appreciate what the FLAG and THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER STANDS FOR!!!!

JoeH. I agree, without a flag there’s nothing that represent’s a country. I’m a Purple-Heart Koream War veteran, was there in 1951.

Vagabond,
There is an old saying that only he who has been horizontal for a period appreciates being vertical!!!

Over 80% of Goshen College’s students travel abroad during their studies and spend a semester living in another country; including china and in the past cuba, nicaragua, peru, germany, the ivory coast, egypt,the dominican republic and many others.

violet,
WOW!! A whole semester?!?!?! Let’s see, I spent three years in Germany, eighteen months in Vietnam, A year in the Canal zone, and about three weeks flying every day into Laos!!! How do those guys tolerate a whole semester???

Thanks for your service Joe but not everyone is into killing for their country. I doubt if that makes them better or worse for serving differently and since we now have an all volunteer Army even fewer will wear a military uniform.

Well, Eddie, I would die for this country. OTOH I am respectful of those who refuse to fight in these military complex wars. If the school is really against war, then protest the current war, not our core traditions.

Viet Nam was an eye opener. It was continued by the likes of Kissinger advising Nixon he would lose face it not continued. Some reason for killing off US soldiers.

I had two sons at the time of the Kuwait event. One was in Kuwait and the other asked me how I could support him when the US was scorching millions of people who could not defend themselves. While I agreed with the one against the war, my thought at the time was which son could I depend on to defend me or to help me if times got rough. The one in Kuwait would give his life for me; the other one wouldn’t.

If they don’t recognize government, they should not depend on federal loans and grants to help students cover the $32,000 cost per year. Without access to government funding support for its students, the college would probably dry up and blow away.

Gee eddie47d,I hadnt realized that you were so sensitive to the words of Francis Scott Key.Wow…If you might be offended,then maybe I shouldnt sing the Star Spangled Banner at sporting events.Oh yes …and while we are talking about it,lets not say the pledge of allegiance either.After all if I want democracy instead of republic,I might be offended at the content of the whole thing.Yep…lets take God out of the pledge too.I might be offended at the term God.We took Him out of the schools and look what great shape they are in now.I am left handed,and I am offended that I must make a military salute using my right hand….I smell an ACLU lawsuit brewing.Hey when I am in court and they tell me to raise my right hand to be sworn in….I’ll just engineer a sit-in to protest that because they are obviously not considering my left-handedness.The baliff is going to have his work cut out for him that day,I can tell you that.Come to think of it…I am offended that signs arent posted in every language on earth.From now on I say that all signs must be in all languages,becuase otherwise it is clearly discrimination…..

ACLU another commie organization that needs to be run out of the US dirty commies and radical nutjobs trying to help Obama take down America.

Obama and his commie goons are taking America down with trash like banning the flag, our songs, god, and the list goes on, they have the commie ACLU helping him and his goon squad the czars he hired.

And there it is folks! At 9:32 am pst, President Obama officially became responsible for banning the Star Spangled Banner from Goshen football games. What will he do next?

Marcy Bonebright was allowed to put her article on the Livingston site for the simple reason for some of you to bash Obama. It worked as always. You say we have personal liberties yet you attack this private school like it can’t make it’s own choices. You want to force things on schools ,no differently that some liberals who want to take away the right of some students to pray in school. It all comes down to a power play by either side to force their beliefs on someone else.

Dear eddie47d,

That’s quite an incoherent leap you made.

Best wishes,
Bob

Eddie47d,
What a queer imagination you have. Spinmeister extrodinare is not not a title highly sought after, yet you persist in achieving it.

Michael J,
well, you definately got the TYPE of imagination right!!!

eddie says, “Back in the 60′s the Star Spangled Banner was considered a war mongering song (bombs bursting in air) and offensive to some.”

It seems while some of us have been sleeping, those that were offended by the Star Spangled Banner back in the 60′s have infiltrated our guvment and our schools and some of our minds. Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Bill Clinton, Hillary and the rest of the Weather Underground must be jumping for joy.

Until we stand up and start fighting these commies, they will do as they please in America, we must stand up America or they are going to take America down, they have already begun there terror campaign on our kids.

yes eddie you are right about the sixties. the era which spawned the likes of jane fonda tom hayden bill slick willie clinton and so many other protesting draft card burning SLIMEBALLS,

Look at all the supporters of the Vietnam War (at least Vagabond). We got into that war under false pretenses too. No different than Bush in Iraq and Obama in Libya. Yet so many of you say we shouldn’t be in the Middle East and that money could be better spent at home. Are those who spoke out against the Vietnam War bad people and those who speak out on our Middle East involvement for the same reasons good patriotic people. Is that the height of hypocrisy or are they all good foreign entanglements?

You know Eddie, I never thought I’d see the day when peace, love and forgiveness would become un-American. Not everything about the 60s peace movement was good, but I’d sure feel a lot better if today’s music were talking about ending war instead of “‘put(‘n) a boot in your ass, It’s the american way.” Yes, we may need to respond to attacks with force and I respect that, but what have we gained by attacking Iraq and Lybia?

Heck my brother video taped the CNN footage of the Gulf war,and if you have the popcorn and the coca-cola,I have the noisemakers and the HDTV.Come on over eddie47d,and we can watch all 14 days worth of 24hr fun.-CC.

Eddie,
i don’t give a dam about them speaking out against the war, they were right. what I care about is the way they treat the soldiers!!! Were you one of them that stood in the airport calling the returning soldiers baby killers and woman killers?? did you spit on them, boy??
I don’t care if you support the war or not, but support for our troops who would fight for YOUR freedoms anywhere in the world is not only proper, it is a necessity!!!

JoeH– I agree with you 100%. Support our troops! And their families!! And take care of our veterans!!

I agree with you Claire and JoeH. Let’s support the veterans, families, and soldiers. My uncle was with the air force and they just came back home after fighting during the Tet Offensive. As they were moving towards the buses to take them to Lacklund AFB, a person came out of the crowd and threw an egg. It hit one of their personnel square in the chest. Needless to say, the airman in question gave the piece of crap the proper military response, by chasing him down and whomping his backside. My uncle had to drag him off of the person, some long haired freak. As far as my uncle knows, the person was never seen in San Antonio again. I give that airman two thumbs up on his appropriate actions in that situation. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

Quote: “My country may she ever be right, but my country right or wrong.” Stephen Decater

We arm chair generals pass judgement on leaders for what we think are their bad decisions with a vitrol which is truly unnerving. We sit in hindsight of decisions that were made in the maelstrom of momentous events by mere mortals like ourselves and pass judgement with glib disregard for our ignorance of all that went on while those decisions were made.

Even the current CinC deserves some benefit of doubt regarding decisions he has made because he is privy to facts that we will never know. Perhaps many decisions were made in haste or with imperfect information. Perhaps some were made with cynical disregard for the lives of the men who went to battle based on the decisions of the president but we will never know for sure.

What I am suggesting is that we exercise a little restraint and circumspection before making harsh judgements on men upon whom the burden of command has fallen.

Cawmun cents; You’ll need a mighty big sign for all those languages along our roads! Was that your attempt at humor or a personal exaggeration? Besides that I never said I didn’t like the Star Spangled Banner only that it was discussed many years ago. I’m glad I made your day with your silliness.

There is a powerful tendency these days for men to want to appear to be, above all things, tolerant. But G.K. Chesterton said it best when he said that tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions. It might also be said that tolerance is the virtue of a man without salvation. Every man must choose between Truth and tolerance. He cannot choose both and expect to dine at the Great Supper.
Kevin

Tell you what….we can make them signs a thousand feet tall.Seperate the languages into groups,and them folks can understand no matter where they come from.Doesnt that sound like a good leftist plan Eddie47d?

Whatever!

If it hadn’t been played in 57 years, it was STUPID to make the policy and piss people off unnecessarily. The destruction of traditions is a necessary step in the progression toward a global order. All hail political correctness.

violet,
At one soccer game I saw a kid dislocate his knee! I would pray before an event if I felt like it and if they don’t like it, they can kiss the dark side!!!

100% agree. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

As soon as they change that law,the gubment buildings and courthouses will resemble the old shooting galleries like at the carnival when we was kids.Of course,armed only with ten round clips,I will have to watch you do most of the shooting Mr.Roadkill.-CC.

It is talk and writing like this that the left uses against us. Badthink might not as yet be a “crime” but what one says or writes can be used against them.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news Mr.Weber,but when it comes to jest,I am unapologetic.They may arrest me,they may indict me,they may even kill me,but I will speak my mind.(freely I might add)Also,since I do not fear the politburo(as I would rather die speaking as I wish, rather than sit fearing reprisal)I will annunciate forthwith.Thank you for calling-CC.

Cawmun Cents, hear hear. You have nothing to fear but fear itself…and a tyranical guvment.

AMEN Roadkill. and so very true,

“In God is our trust” and “Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation” are found in the Star Spangled Banner. Ah yes. Francis Scott Key included God in our national anthem. More proof of this being a Christian nation. As far as Goshen College is concerned, about a 30 minute drive from my house, I’ll call them up tomorrow to ask them why are you screwing up? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

you might allso ask them if they have given any thought to moving to russia and if not why not, I am glad they are not even close to where I live,

My apologies Samurai for I thought you lived in Indiana. Goshen is straight west of West Point in southeastern NY. Francis Scott Key also wrote religious hymns. One is “Before You Lord,We Bow” which we sang a few months ago.

Samurai; Opps, wrong Goshen and you are correct.

No problem. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

Samurai,
I wonder how many contributions they will get from TRUE Americans in the future, now that they have made this so public??? They should remember that what that music and song represent are the reason that they can object to the playing of it!!

They’ll probably get none, but we’ll just have to wait and see. They may get a buch of libs to go there. Good comment JoeH. Keep up the good fight, fellow patriots! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

samurai,
Given that the Mennonites are a Christian religion, I don’t think those passages have anything to do with their decision (if that was your point.) It seems more the point that their strict adherence to pacifism precludes them from supporting country over belief. I know my Lutheran Pastor ( a medic in the Army) refused to have the American flag in the chancel. The narthex was fine, but he felt that God and church came before country and the two should not share this sacred area.

The institution strives “to be an influential leader in liberal arts education with a growing capacity to serve a theologically, politically, racially and ethnically diverse constituency both within and beyond the Mennonite church,”

The above statement seems to be a contradiction. If the institution accommodates and serves a growing capacity of theologically, politically, racially and ethnically diverse constituency, then its logical to assume, that the proposal, that sparked the controversy, to find an alternative to playing “The Star-Spangled Banner, reveals, that there is among the group of constituents, I would venture to guess, patriotic American born citizens, that are not being accommodated! Hence, “The decision to move forward with the ban was not without controversy, even among the Board members, the release reported”. No big surprise there! So then, can the institution lay claim to the principal, that they are indeed diverse, much less accommodate all? it seems such is not the case. In my opinion, all this talk of diversity, and special consideration and accommodations, that is afforded to the diverse racial and ethnical community, at the expense of American born citizens, with the idea, so as to avoid insult to some, while at the same time insulting others, is nothing more then a pretence to further fashion America into a hegemony, thus rendering America no longer recognizable as to its former Identity. It appears that the same blueprint and strategy that were used to shape what is Canada today, a socialist multicultural entity, the same are being applied to transform America! This sort of political shenanigans are nothing more then a deliberate assault on Sovereignty with the ultimate goal to destroy it!!!

My ex-Lutheran pastor also took the American flag out of our Sanctuary and put it in the Narthex. He would also not allow our Boy Scout Troop to procede up the aisle with their flags during the Eagle Scout ceremony. He said we were not worshipping the flag and since the church is God’s living room, how many people have flags in their living rooms? Well I for one do have flags in my umbrella stand in our living room. This is another example of the progressives taking over our churches with their liberal ideas. As of last September our church closed – another example of spreading the wealth around. We had a lot of money but not many congregants and we were told others could use our money better and our hierachy closed us down. We could have fought it because our people owned the property, but couldn’t get them to stand up and fight. Guess you know I haven’t been able to walk into another church since then.

Their objections to the Star Spangled Banner has nothing to do with the fact that it mentions God or because they hate America. It all stems from mention of “Rockets Red Glare” & “Bombs Bursting in Air”. The Mennonites believe in pacifism, aka peace, and the mention of these things in the ANY SONG goes against the core believe of their religion.

This is possible. Thanks for the info. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

But here’s the kicker – They may be private, but they receive your and my tax dollars (just like any other college) through students who receive the Pell Grant and any other federally subsidized education monies. Sad to say, but this is my ALMA MATER (class of 1995), and this is the most revolting thing I’ve ever heard from them. The Mennonite Church comes from a looooong history of their ancestors seeking and having been granted religious freedom in this country. They have lived here and prospered (greatly) for generations for that very reason. And this is the way they thank the country??? Somehow, a faction has taken over the Mennonite Church that preaches that allegience to God and country are mutually exclusive – you cannot have both. I am beyond furious! If I could, I’d give them back my diploma. They are sooo far out of touch with reality that I think they have no idea how their constiuency will react. I truly hope they lose ALL funding!

Thanks Betty, I didn’t even think about how our tax dollars are being used.

Betty; I would assume you got an excellent education without knowing about their policy about the National Anthem. I can’t imagine it hurt you one bit. The Mennonites stand for alot of things as do the Quakers,Jehovah Witnesses,Amish etc. They all have strong feelings about war,their families and government interference so be proud of your diploma and respect their religious values.The National Anthem brings up passions on many fronts and it is a rousing hymn but to some it is another government mandate that they are forced to accept.

If they feel so “forced to accept” why are they still in existance?
Our brave military are fighting for their freedom to exist. If they can’t honour and respect the flag, laws, country, and the people that protect their rights and freedoms the door is opened they can leave.

Terry; Is your loyalty to a flag,a song or to God. “You will have no other gods before Me”

Eddie
Do I need to remind you that you would not be able to honour your God if it were not for the honouring of AMERICA. My husband’s family were ministers and landlords in China during the uprising. His parents were lucky enough to get out leaving their families behind and eventually made their way to America. His mother’s father, Reverend Wang, was imprisoned and fortunately he made it out alive. Their family records were destroyed, their property was taken and given to other people. They were given food (rice) coupons and cotton coupons for their work and existenance. So if you feel that it is so awful to thank God for the privileges given to you by allowing you to be in this GREAT shame on you. God Bless America and you.

Eddie – You left of a few; communists, fascists, socialists and all those that would prohibit any religion they don’t approve of. It’s the United States of America that permits their sorry asses to disrespect the very country providing their freedom. Sorry, these worthless maggots should go somewhere else until they appreciate the sacrifices made for them. Last but not least, they should read the story about the night that Francis Scott Key wrote our National Anthem. Our National Anthem represents a lot – and a whole lot more than then liberal’s will ever contribute.

Eddie, God precedes all, yet all, God, Country and patriotic expression, are connected. Adherence must be to maintain proper sequential order. Yes?

“The National Anthem brings up passions on many fronts and it is a rousing hymn but to some it is another government mandate that they are forced to accept.”

eddie, what the hell planet do you live on? “Government mandate?” You’re positively balmy!

Betty,
Why is it so hard to accept a religious group putting God before country? If, as many people on this site suggest will happen your government calls on you to recant your belief in Christ or be labeled a traitor to the U.S.A. will you give in? What if the 5 Catholic Supreme court judges decide that the Constitution is wrong and allows Catholicism to be the official church of theses United States? Will you convert (if you are not already Catholic?)

Kinetic1.
God before Country? Country before God? Either suggestion is like putting the proverbial “cart before the horse”, when each should instead share equal standing.

It’s almost like asking which came first, “the chicken or the egg”? When the answer to this age old question is neither, they both evolved simultaneously. Which should also be the case between God and Country. Even though God has been around much longer, neither should have precedence. The foresight of our founders and the symbiotic forging of God and Country has been the adhesive that has held together our moral strength and fortitude. Let no man put asunder.

God before country? Yes! God first without honouring country? Absolutely not!

Michael J,
Actually, if you believe your Bible, the chicken came before the egg. In the story of God creating this world, it is told that he said let the skies be filled with fowl. Therefore, the Chicken came first!

JoeH, I know this will offend, but Evolution is such an idiotic theory! There are so many experts in the field that have absolutely no more faith in the theory. It surprises me that in this day and age of advanced science that this theory is still being considered, by those, non-the less, that understand absolutely nothing about the proper use science!!! Its just non-sense, or perhaps, just another religion, since it requires a great deal of human manufactured faith to believe in it! Yikes, here come the re-buttals, Flap jackets on!!!

Right on Jay! Keep up the good fight, fellow patriots! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

Mary, Both one without the other would put us in the same shape as other countrys. Under a monarchye or communist way of life and if that is not go enough try living in Iran or France for 5 years you would soon see both.

coal miner: I agree.

Well said slapjack