45 Caliber, you have just made an excellent point. Good one.

45
That’s good

Always enjoy that one.

45 –

45caliber,
LOL, I love the son’s reply. The daughter’s reply of pattern was cute.

Listen here,

My reason for not wanting to shoot to kill is because I am hoping they will come to Christ someday. Kill them, their “chances” of repenting are over.

However, I understand your argument. Thanks again. I am no Demoncrat, err, I mean Democrat.

Ben W. (not the author of the main article at the top of this blog, I am just a commenter).

Very funny and entertaining…..I am a democrat and I say we need to get this guy over to AFGHANISTAN and give him as many toys as he needs….period….POOF….all over, but the crying….

So if the perp is still moving after you shoot him (n times) you are supposed to just stand there and let him take his turn?

You have been playing too much dungeons and dragons.

Robert Smith,

I am not a gun owner. I am not trained. Thanks for the tip and your insight. I was not there, but I do not think 5 extra bullets in that teen was right. I suppose I would drop the gun after I get shot. That is me. I would surrender. That is me.

Thanks.
Ben W. (not the author of the main article at the top of this blog, I am just a commenter).

RCaston. Stay out of California. It is a felony in Calif to shoot to kill.

Vicki,
If Obama gets his wishes, that will happen to rest of America.
Obama and U.N. are in bed together.

Ben W. (not the author of the main article above).

Rcaston,
Thanks for your reply. I admit, I am not a gun owner. I plan to, but just can’t afford it.

I can’t imagine pointing or shooting someone. The thing was he shot the guy, then ran after the other guy, then gave up and returned, only to shoot more. I was not there, I did not read the court’s transcript. However, if Antwur still had control of the gun, then it is understandable.
If he did not, not acceptable. Again, I was not there.
Thanks for sharing your insight as a gun owner.

I am no liberal.

Ben W. (not the author of the main article on top of this blog – Just a commenter).

I meant to say “chance” not “change”.

45caliber,
“chance”, I get it. Midsection. OK. I do not own a gun, nor to I know how to shoot. My mom told me it was not polite to point, so I do not have enough practice to point the gun at their midsection. LOL

Thanks for your reply. Your insight is important as you seem to be a gun owner.

Ben W. (not the author of the main article at the top of this blog, I am just a commenter).

When you shoot to wound, you will sued by the criminal as what happened in one of the western states, may have been Kansas, I am not sure now, a few years back. You had better shoot to kill unless you want to lose all you savings as this man did.

The courses do NOT say shoot to kill. They say “shoot to stop” 2 to center of mass. Or 2 to center of mass and one to center of ocular cranial cavity.

You accept the fact that the person will probably die but you NEVER EVER shoot to kill or wound. (Especially in California )

You only shoot to stop the threat.

sybucket,

Interesting information you shared. I did not know that they can still shoot to kill 10 sec. after being fatal shot at.

Come to think of it, I remember seeing something like that in movies. I thought it was just for drama effect.

You gun owners out there are convincing me alright. Thanks.
Assuming you are gun owners as you may have taken courses on gun safety or other topics.

Ben W. (not the author of the main article at the top of this blog, I am just a commenter).

Vicki,

LOL, thanks for the warning. Stay away from Calif. Just know that I do not own a gun. Not yet.

Shoot to stop, not kill. I like that, but those gun owners obviously took the course and know to shoot to kill, which is to stop them.

Ben W. (not the author of the main article at the top of this blog, I am just a commenter).

Posted: “He is a law abiding citizen who served our country and if he says he still felt threatened by the man then I believe him.”

Pretty lame if you feel threatened by a kid on the floor with a bullet in him.

Rob

Lame? Are you kidding me. He wasn’t a kid on the floor with a bullet in him, he was a gun toting – threatening – criminal on the floor and according to the only person that was there he was still moving. That means he was a threat. Would it have made a difference if the criminal has been 18+? If so, why?

@-Karolyn & “some” others here that “Assume” the Punk was no longer a Threat.
Now: It’s my turn to “Assume” that the Punk “Was” still a threat. Don’t bitch about it. You & your Bleeding heart folks opened the Door of Assumptions.
I hereby “Assume ” that the Punk was Still a threat and while I’m at it, I will also “Assume” the Punk’s firearm was still within his reach & or any other object which could have been used as a weapon.
I’ll also assume that the Disabled person only unloaded on the Punk when the Punk was reaching for a weapon again while cussing the Racist Ersland out for shooting him.
If a chicken can run around for 5 minutes after getting it’s head yanked off , so can a punk and that is Not an Assumption. If you had ever watched someone in great pain while at deaths door you would know that the last few breaths a person takes can be the most intense fight they ever fought. As in Basic instincts take over and the dying person is stronger & possibly more active than Superman until their last gasp.
So ,I’ll add one more assumption . The Punk either wanted to die or he was fighting what he Assumed would be his last breath & chance to live & threaten someone else down the road. As in a Punk’s Nature.

FireMall – Bravo and applause!

Very well done!

FireMall:

I agree fully with what you said. Too bad the libs can’t bare to consider the idea that you might be right.

@firemarshal

Agreed. The only available witness claims parker was still a threat. Absent evidence to the contrary, it is clear that parker WAS STILL a threat.

Robert, I was in Fl. last winter. The St. Petersburg Cops got a call about a person acting strangely. Two cop went to the area and split up to search for the suspect. The one policeman, around 46 years old, about to retire, stopped the suspect to question him. This suspect pulled out a weapon from the back of his waistband and shot the officer approximatel 5 or 6 times with a handgun and then ran off. He was subsequently caught a few days later. He was a 16 year old Black African male subject. This officer was never given a chance to defend himself as he was caught completely off guard. This is what happens to good people out doing there job. The defendant are then given all the benefits of the system and then usually get out after a few years as this kid will probably do. The officer is dead and this killer will be out roaming the streets again waiting to kill again. Just 1 month prior to this 2 other St. Petersburg, Fl. police officers were killed and a U.S. Marshall was wounded in the shootout trying to serve a warrant on this Black African American fugitive. This is why good people need to be vigilant for these types of individuals. I don’t blame this pharmacist on bit in what he did. Any one of us may have done the same thing. I hope this is something that the people can do to help him get released. I hope the good folks in his community gets behind him and give him a helping hand. This is injustice at its best.

If Ersland had time to go get another gun and come back, it would appear that the perp was sufficiently disabled.

Not necessarily. He could have gotten his gun while the colonel was getting another gun and tried to roll over to use it.

45caliber, it is useless trying to communicate with Karolyn. Her mind runs completely different than most of us Conservatives. I just quit responding to her post. I know it is useless to try to tell her that there are other valid opinions out there besides hers.

Wayne – Why am I singled out? I am not the only one with this opinion! It seems to me that no matter what I say, I get crap, but it’s OK if a “conservative” says the same thing? Wah!

In reading different blogs I am becoming increasingly more aware that there are more “sides” than I had first thought when I started reading here. It is not as cut and dried as any of us seem to think.

Karolyn, “it would appear”? Appearances are not always what they seem. You, again, are using conjecture rather than logic.

Drop the emotions for one moment, watch the video if you have the stomach for it, and then tell me that Parker is or is not still a threat. You can’t tell…thus you are just assuming based soley on what you feel it “appears to be”. Does this not create just a hint of doubt with you? It should!

Well, if I could find the video, I would watch it!

Karolyn, I’ll post it for the third time today just so you can watch it. You were complaining about “heresay” yesterday and today you base your comments on “heresay”…what to do about this conflict?

Watch the pharmacy video to see what happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBBlEhmWNQ&feature=player_embedded

Thanks, Jeff, I really could not find it. Now that I’ve watched it, I’m even more secure in what I think. Ersland was so nonchalant about what he did. It looks like he just calmly came back into the store; went and got another gun; and shot the guy. Case closed! If he feared for his life, he would not have turned his back on the kid to go get the other gun. Going back into the store he wasn’t even running.

Karolyn says, “It looks like he just calmly came back into the store; went and got another gun; and shot the guy. Case closed!”

You’re basing you decision on what “it looks like” to you? You obviously could have filled any one of twelve sets of shoes on that jury. Facts Karolyn, facts…not what it looks like or what it appears to be. You cannot tell me with a straight face that you know from what “it looks like” in the video that Parker no longer posed any type of threat to Ersland.

Again, pure conjecture on your part.

JeffH – Sigh. You just can’t fix stupid.

Why we keep trying, I don’t know. I do know that if I kept getting beaten up the way some folks do here, I’d find somewhere else to play.

Kind of blows your mind at times, doesn’t it?

Well, you don’t have all the facts and you’re standing by your take! Why shouldn’t I? None of us heard all the evidence provided in court; so none of us are qualified to take a stand. And Kate, I could care less what you think. You think I get beat up? It just gives me more incentive to state my case. Know-it-alls just get me pumped!

Kate8, I’ve been harping that for quite some time. There are those that are so naive, some that just can’t understand or comprehend anything at all and babble on and on, those that come here just because they can and lastly those that get paid to disrupt the threads.

Have you ever noticed how peacefull this board is when there aren’t the distractors on board? Have you ever noticed how we can agree to disagree with each other and not take it pesonal? I’ve seen it all, like you, and experienced it all and I can tell you with confidence that the progressive/liberal/communist/socialist/Marxists that frequent this board have cornered the market on meaness and hate.
We understand their game and that irritates the heck out of ‘em.

As for the rest…well you already covered it.

@ Karolyn: AGAIN !! whew
What makes you so sure that the Punk wasn’t getting his wits back / second wind so to speak after the first wound and was going for a Heil Mary attempt at neutralizing Ersland {the punk’s immediate threat] and main obstacle to finishing his original robbery plan and escape plan / route ??
Never mind: I forgot that anything you and all Liberal’s “Assume” is Always Actually Based in Fact. And based on Non-Facts for the sole purpose of being Right at all cost. Not too much different than the Prosecutor that also Assumed for the wrong reason. I.E. Political aspirations, just as all District attorneys are prone to do.

I base what I say on what I read.

OMG.

There is a difference between self defense and vigilante justice. The fact that Antwun was killed while committing a robbery doesn’t bother me it is the way it was done. That is why Ersland was found guilty. The confrontation should have ended once Ersland came back into the store. An obvious case of self defense turned into murder, although Ersland charges should have been manslaughter. 5 years in prison and 5 years parole should have been tops in punishment.

eddie:

You are right. There is a difference. If a man attacks you and you kill him, that is self defense. If you believe a man is guilty of some crime and you go hang him, that is vigilanteeism. The colonel didn’t hang him – he shot a man who threatened him. That is self defense.

Actually he committed the hanging once he fired those 5 extra shots.

eddie, I’ll ask you the same question I posed to Robert and Karolyn.
If you watched the video, where does it show that Parker wasn’t still a threat? I can’t tell because no one but Ersland and Parker know that. Parker can’t be seen in the video at the end. So I say you. Robert and Karolyn are “assuming” Parker is no longer a threat. That video, in and of itself, should have been enough to create some doubt. The sentance of 1st degree murder was completely wrong in this case.

Beyond shadow of a doubt, to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.

Jeff:

Good answer.

45caliber, I don’t expect them to answer either.

He may already have been dead and he pumped those 5 shots in anyway. You don’t know either Jeff so why do you always have to be a smartazz. Maybe he got a kick out of it like some police officers do. Our police pumped 45 bullets into a guy standing by his car.(that’s how many bullets were found in his body), many more were fired. People overplay their hand and it’s not always the criminal.

eddie, why, when you’re put on the spot, do you always have to call people names and confirm you are a hypocrite. My question is legitimate and nothing “smartazz”(you tend to get nasty when you can’t anwer intelligently)about the question.

Show a little respect for Mr. Livingston and PLD’s request for some civility and refrain yourself.

The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it.
George Washington

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/mean_2.html#ixzz1OFL9jDrU

jeff-

libertytrain, . I respect and remember those words of wisdom.

Karolyn, if you were ever a victim of a crime or ever had a good friend murdered, or ever been shot at you would come to a quick decision and do what needs to be done.

What “needs to be done” is once the immediate threat is gone to follow due process. If the system is broken fix it.

Might you have gone to picket to free Erstland? How’s come nobody did that for him? I suspect that those who have all the facts, as if the video isn’t enough, would easily see that the killing wasn’t necessary.

Rob

RS, it seems there were supporters who rallied for Ersaland.

Jerome Ersland Rally

The pharmacist convicted of first degree murder for shooting and killing a would be robber, will have supporters rallying in his favor today.

Hundreds of people are scheduled to rally outside of Reliable Pharmacy this morning. Ersland’s supporters believe he was wrongly convicted and say he acted in self defense.
http://www.okcfox.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kokh_vid_3439.shtml?wap=0

A

Sorry hit the send key by mistake.

My point though is that obviously, you have NEVER been the victim of a crime. I have and If I had a gun I would have done the same thing.
A whole bunch of thoughts race thru your head and the adrenaline
is just racing thru your body. Your thoughts race and where the only thought you have is to either get away or if you can’t you are then backed into a corner and only then does the thought of killling come into your mind, because it’s not going to be me, it’s going to be them. You forget the man is Military trained, and what he did is
the only outcome, because in a life or death situation, and he could not get away (the thougt of killing comes into play) his training
is on auto pilot its automatic!!!!! Col Ersland conviction should be over turned and toe Gov should pardon him!! The next time you want to comment put down the Kool Aid count to ten think about all the ramifications of your thoughts, and then guess what Don’t post!!!!!! Because no one cares about what you have to say!!!

Right on ADNM, I used to be a victim, no more.

Karolyn – REALLY?

You believe “death is a release into freedom”? lol Well,then- KUDOS to the Vet for “liberating” Antwun!! Why is it necessary to die in order to be free? Possibly because the libs have been working day and night to destroy our freedoms for centuries? Why can’t we be free in THIS life, rather than having to die before we can be “free”? If life were more valuable in THIS realm (Read:more free) there may be fewer Antwun’s willing to risk their lives for some reality altering drugs that make them even more mindless, and consequently, fewer rage-filled individuals who might sub-consciously feel the need to empty the full clip in such a situation. Not saying Erslund was rage-filled, but many of us are feeling some rage and resentment these days, and those feelings might just be expressed in such a situation. That scenario was not exactly a time of quiet and sober reflection. I suggest you libs should tread lightly. lol

In such a situation, the victim should not be held to the same standard of what is “appropriate” as he would be when playing a game of checkers. Yes, emotions ARE in control, and the victim must not be expected to react in the same way as he might if a waiter told him his favorite item was not available at the restaurant today.

Every possible allowance must be made for the victim (no,Karolyn, NOT Antwun in this case) and his reaction at a time when he was fearful for his life.

I agree, that pumping extra rounds into an inacapacitated victim may be over the top. However, the perpetrators bought chips in Erslund’s game. In that situation, only Erslund can be allowed to determine when that game is over. Erslund was a law abiding citizen, working for a living and harming nobody. What did the perps have that Erslund wanted? Nothing. They came at him, and that was THEIR choice. Erslund, as all of us may, may have vented some of his rage and resentment at a society of diminishing freedoms and increasing government control at those two synbols of anarchy. Tsk,tsk. How regrettable. But he should never have been charged.

If you choose to dance, you gotta pay the piper.

Steve
Excellent reply and right on.The problem that karolyn has is that she sees things in a hallucinogenic reality and prefers that we should all just get along.BTW glad that there are more AZ posters coming to this site sounds like the word is getting out.Thanks

Steve – Wow! Excellent post!

And that is what Ersland is doing. (paying the piper.)

Yes, unfortunately, he is paying a piper that someone else called.

There’s little sense discussing it with you, as the leftists typically advocate the stance of those who are mostly responsible for the sad lack of objective justice in our greatest of all countries, and who continually work to chip away what is left,in a fervent desire for political correctness and a perpetually elusive “social justice”, at the expense of individual rights,liberties and objective justice.

While you were busily swallowing in great gulps the socialist dogma at that liberal state funded institution of leftist learning, did you ever consider educating yourself in an opposing view? It’s never too late to consider yourself irretrievably leftist.

Why ever would you take time away from the rainbow parade to visit a site such as this?

Steve
Wow

Steve – I really resent being labeled; and I am being educated every day by reading here and at other sites. You would be surprised at how many things I have changed my mind about since beginning to read these blogs.

In this instance, the man was found guilty by a jury of his peers; and if he shot a man 5 times who was not able to defend HIMself, then it is a good verdict. We have laws for a reason. Sometimes it’s not pretty, but it is what it is.

Well, that’s two liberals here who openly resent labels.

karolyn – You say that we shouldn’t judge without emotion, and then you say “we have laws”. It seems to all depend on who the person is being judged. I guess our emotion would be reserved for the attacker.

Liberals also pick and choose which laws are enforced and which are ignored on any given day. Depends on emotion, I guess.

As far as labels, it is you who label yourself by the words you put forth. Which, I might add, are often contradictory.

steve in AZ, good post.

@- Karolyn & others here of like mindlessness.
You people amaze me when you ignore the one thing that “will” in the realms of human nature ignore the Human Factor of Basic Survival.
The Stupid, obviously Un-Educated, Un-Parented Punks are the ones that laid out / Planned the Premeditated event.
By their Own choices they also Laid out the Possibility of forcing a good Man, {yes Real Man} into Basic Human Survival Mode. For an average human, this switch does not come with an On /Off button. The timer is activated by the Perps and they should know that, when “They” “Choose” in their Own mind to commit /act out on their thoughts. .
In the Real world of “We The Thinking People” The Self-Preservation button only deactivates when Nature says it’s safe to do so. As long as the Punk was Still Breathing, Twitching, he is still a threat. Once again , It’s the Perp’s “choice” and the “Victim’s” Basic Sub-Conscience Right. No more, no less.
Thus No-ONE has the Right to Bitch about the Results or Convict a person when the acts Came from a “Victim’s” Purely Basic Survival Instinct to Terminate a Threat to one’s life & Liberty.
Maybe, no, “Definitely” the Punks need a Pre -Death course on what can and imo, “should” happen when Punks such as these idiots choose to Ignore Basic Human Nature Laws along with Society’s Laws.
Actions Always come with Reactions. One’s Actions come by Choice, the Reaction from nature. There is not one Human living today that cannot voluntarily Recall a day when a Natural Reaction to some type of threat has not Triggered a Basic Survival Instinct in their life.
Of course “Some” people think they can Change ? Control Basic Human nature and even be ignorant to the point that they Think they can even control Mother Nature. Oh well , as I said Nature is one bad azz opponent, so, if that’s one’s Bleeding Heart’s Liberal “Choice”, go ahead, Have at it. Just don’t try it on me. I’m a Basic kind of man, With a gun..
I Predict that many Libatards / Marxist /Socialist may,one day, find themselves face to face with the Results of their futile attempts at Controlling & or Ignoring Nature’s Laws.
Karolyn, Maybe you should forward this to your Messiah in the White House. He seems to be a tad Ignorant of Human Nature too.

Fire – Please can the “Messiah” crap! I have no “Messiah.”

karolyn – Speaking of “The One”, he is in perpetual violation of our Laws.

Somehow you are okay with it. I guess you consider him above the Law.

Karolyn:

How do you KNOW he was incapacitated? There have been many many stories of people who have been shot several times and yet still were able to kill their attackers. A story in the paper yesterday talked about several Army rangers in Afghanistan. Three of them were wounded and knocked down by the bullets. They had also received grenade shrapnel. One (the story was about) had grabbed a live grenade and had tried to throw it away – it blew off his hand. Yet they STILL were able to shoot back until help arrived.

From what I understand (I could be wrong) the camera did NOT shot the boy after he fell down. It simply showed the victim shooting at him. Therefore, the ONLY facts known is that the victim shot him again – and stated that the boy was still moving and was conceived to be a threat.

As far as I’m concerned, the man should have never been charged. Further, he was due a medal for getting the criminal off the street. He most likely prevented others from being robbed and possibly even killed.

karolyn – So, what’s your stance on an infant who has survived a botched late-term abortion?

Most libs, including Obama, are for leaving them on a shelf to die.

Well, Kate, I would not be one of them.

karolyn – You are, by supporting those who do.

Why do you keep playing that game Kate? That your side is so wonderful! Why didn’t You stop the Bush war in Iraq? Are you responsible for the 4,000 dead Americans and the 100,000 dead Iraqi’s? According to your version of life you to have to take responsibility for your sides actions. Right!

To say that the victim shouldn’t sink to the level of the perpetrator is a moral statement. It could be a correct moral statement to say that the victim shouldn’t sink to the level of the perpetrator; but the fact remains that the victim still has the RIGHT to respond on that level if he so chooses.

The victim (Ersland) obviously did not sink to the level of the perp (parker).

The victim exercised his right of self defense.

The perp tried to rob and possibly murder the victim.

Obviously on different levels (of morality).

Karolyn says:
“Now, I have nothing against death; I believe it is a release into freedom. Thinking of death that way, the victim is actually being rewarded.”

How is the victim (Ersland) being rewarded?

Based on your statements, why are you not rallying to Mr Ersland’s defense
for his heroic actions to “free” the downtrodden parker? (you did say that you support helping repressed people.
———————-
karolyn says:
June 2, 2011 at 3:01 pm

Dave – I support helping repressed people to achieve freedom,
———————-)

Based on your statements, death is freedom, why are you still alive?

Well I most certainly know right from wrong and Erslund was absolutely wrong in “finishing the job.” Vigilanti justice does this country no service.

karolyn go play in the traffic,

Another intelligent comment from the right. Think I’ll start keeping a tally of those types of remarks coming from either side and see who wins.

Hey there Karolyn: I see that you haven’t forsaken your keyboard for the last 6-8 months . Seems I recall you have some sort of Fat Check , Dot Obama Gov / taxpayer funded job, so what else do you do while at work on “We The People’s ” Dime other than diss the People that pay for your freebee ride ??
Considering your stance on this so called murder, I’ll ask your OP on the Demon-rat’s Waco fiasco. I assume you approve of the Gov, Clinton & Reno executing the Adults & Threatening Children in the Davidian Massacre sponsored by none other than your Liberal /Marxist gun control freek heroes ??
One thing for sure, the Fort Hood Military flame throwing tank attack was definitely effective in turning 86 people into charcoal. That only committed the horrific act of preparing ,{via their 2nd Amendment Rights} for exactly what happened to them. Of course the Fact that the ATF, FBI forgot to announce their arrival and were kicking an upstairs window in when the Davidians sensed an attack from an unknown assailant would matter in this case . HUH??
I Also assume you were a supporter of the same gun control socialist scum that shot Randy Weaver’s 14 year old son & his infant’s mother with a sniper rifle because her husband had a sawed off shot gun. Wonder where the Civil Rights pundants { Jackson ,Sharpton } were on these attacks on citizens who were “Supposed” to been afforded their Constitutional Rights ?? Note that none of these people in Waco or Ruby Ridge had attacked Robbed, or Threatened anyone but Your Heroes’ Agenda.
Where is your outrage when it’s Your POS Dot Gov Heroes that are killing / Executing people that they consider a threat ? Remember that None of the Waco perpetrators { who once were called victims] had a snowball’s chance in hell to have their day in court.
Considering the Government seems to be immune from the exact law you believe is justified in sending a man that did the nation a favor, what say ye to this ??
To all you bleeding heart Lobatatards here . First, would you folks opinion of what happened to Mr. Ersland be different if he was not white & or even a member of the New Black Panthers terrorist gang.? ?
By your selective standards of self preservation & If it was any of you folks standing in Mr. Ersland’s shoes. “We” in the Gun Toting Wild West would be discussing why the Punk lived, & got away and why you Criminal Coddling duffus’ didn’t protect yourselves.

BTW; If Mr. Ersland had been one of your gun control heroes , it Obviously would have been just fine to shoot the punk when he so much as wiggled his little finger. Hypocrites — Walk among “We The People” and “We” actually pay them for the Honor. BS-BS-BS.

Fire: “I assume you approve of the Gov, Clinton & Reno executing the Adults & Threatening Children in the Davidian Massacre sponsored by none other than your Liberal /Marxist gun control freek heroes ??”

You assume wrong!

FireMall:

A couple of comments.

First, a local man was a member of the ATF when they attacked the Davidians. According to him, as far as he could tell, the Davidians never fired a single shot. What started the shooting was a man climbing a ladder with a gun in his hand. He slipped, shot himself through the leg, and yelled, “I’m shot!”

All shooting was by the ATF. Koresh himself had answered the door without a gun. While he was standing there, the shooting started, and the ATF man he was talking to simply pulled out a gun and shot him in the stomache. Everyone on both sides was shot by ATF men.

After they pulled back, the leader called someone in Washington. After talking several minutes, he hung up and ordered the AFT to surround the place and shoot anyone they saw. The man I talked to and others refused because many were children. They were fired and had to walk 7 miles to get to a telephone to call for a ride. They left all their government gear piled in the middle of the road.

Further, I had a friend who was a nurse in the local hospital. When they brought in the bodies after the fire – EVERY ONE HAD BEEN SHOT SQUARE BETWEEN THE EYES. You can’t commit suicide that way. All had been taught to shoot themselves under the chin. She (and the rest of the hospital staff) believed that they had all been lined up and shot and then the place set on fire to hide that.

Incidently, Randy Weaver did not have the sawed off shotgun. He was paid $100 by a government spy to cut it for him – and the spy had marked the barrel at 17 3/4 inches. Randy cut it and was paid for it. That was their “evidence”. He was set up because he refused to spy for them on the Seperatists in the area. Incidently, the government tried to burn his cabin with his kids in it. A reporter caught them loading a 30 gallon drum of gasoline onto their helicopter and threatened to publish it if they dropped it. They told him he’d go to jail if he did and he replied that he might go to jail but they would be in there with him for murder.

Good one 45, I think Karolyn should watch “Waco”: Rules of Engagement”, she could “goggle It”.

Vigilante justice will soon take place whether you want it to or not. If you think vigilante justice died a long time ago, you’re living in a fantasy world. But the world as I see it; for many, the only justice we will see, is the justice we deliver.

Karolyn: You have no clue as to what constitutes right and wrong. You are completely clueless.

Your absoutely right about Karolyn, Bob. I just simply quit responding to her silly post.

The version of Justice we have these days is laughable at best and expensive to boot. I for one hope millions more people start carrying out Vigilante justice and clean the streets of these criminals, especially the gang maggots.
The country would be a safer place and better off for it.

You don’t need to go vigilante to clean the streets. Just let the law abiding carry (open or concealed). They will defend themselves and the criminal element will move back to safer pasttimes (burglary etc).

Conjecture, Karolyn, pure conjecture. Did you watch the video? Tell me then, by watching, that Parker posed no threat. Were you able to tell by the video that Parker was totally disabled? No! As I said, conjecture.

Do you really now karolyn? A lot of people would say that abortion is murder…

karolyn – You are passing judgment on another without having walked in his shoes.

I’ll bet if the robber had killed him instead, you’d still be on his side.

Give me a break, Kate; and quit putting words in my mouth! You have no idea!

Karolyn – Unless you’ve been blowing smoke here, I think we all have a pretty good idea!

That was uncalled for Kate. A very unworthy assumption.

Hey Al
I’m with you,his problem was poor aiming not the fact that he made sure he was dead but that he had to finish the job.The problem here is the lawyers and the greed.Can you imagine if he had lived he would have sued the guy for shooting him.
There was a case in kalifornia that a would be thief fell though the skylight of a department store and sued them and won!
I wounder what happened to the guy that ran out did they catch him or just stopped looking for him?

Al
In a post that we were on last night we ask you if you would run for congress because it takes so much money to run that you were the perfect choice because you could just dig it up!
Kate said she agreed and would also vote for ya so what say you?

Hear Hear! Count me in as an Al Seiber supporter.

Jeff
Now if we can only convince Al we would be golden!
Al come on bud we need ya!

Yes Dan, I would, for no pay, but it would have to be on the Libertarian ticket. right now I’m working 24/7 mining, the last day off was Christmas, JeffH and DaveH would be good to work with, and a dozen other people on this site also. but, I live in the mountains and hate civilization, and cities. so Dan what article was that?

You’re right Dan I’m digging it up, and it’s hard work but it takes billions to run for congress.

Right on Issac, that’s how I feel also.

Amen That!

There is a saying….You don’t shoot until you think they are dead, you keep shooting until THEY think they are dead.

Good saying.

45 – I wonder how many people are now dead because they hesitated.

I could come up with quite a few, just the ones I’ve heard of.

They are thousands of cases in this country where the criminals don’t even go to court. I was talking with a lady a week ago. She told me that one of her friends who lives in Georgia her husband got in a fight with an illegal alien from C.A. Tony (American) was biting him. The illegal got his knife and stabbed Tony nine times. The illegal didn’t go to jail for killing Tony because that was Selfdefense by the way the illegal has been deported three times. He is free,Working and LOL. Looks like this country is anti-americans.

You’re right about parents abdicating their responsibility re raising kids. But as a society we also need to slather a lot of blame on the entertainment industry (which parents pay for, for the “kiddies”). These kids play the most violent video games where the “hero” has umpteen lives, can get up & go on to kill again. Ditto movies. If anyone got beat up the way they do in action movies, they wouldn’t be continuing to get beat up & beat up some more; they’d be in a hospital. These kids that are constantly exposed to this brain-washing, flat don’t have a clue that there are any consequences like death (that you can’t get up from……you don’t have any extra lives).

Carolyn:

Too many of the local black families are ALL involved in crime of all sorts. It is accepted in the family and the kids grow up with this idea. One family locally had the grandmother, two daughters, and several grandkids all arrested for dealing drugs. A couple of the grandkids were also charged with robbery. Sadly, they attend church and consider themselves good Christians. This is just “business”.

vagabond – You are yet another using the race issue to address how someone is viewing this particular case. Get off it!

Well said!

Then you would have been derelict in your duty to reach a verdict based on law and not emotion.

still on the koolaid karolyn??

She is an addict.

Karolyn, if you have never been robbed or held hostage you wouldn’t know what to do, I have before and always carry a fire arm that’s our right here in Ariz. I would of made sure the SOB was dead. when you have a gun pointed at you and have a chance to defend yourself you’ll do anything, including making sure the bastard is dead.

If the guy was laying there wounded and no threat, you would put 5 bullets into him?

Actually to go back and execute him isn’t what America is about.

It’s too bad he wasn’t nailed on manslaughter charges and given a short enough sentence that he got out quickly. But we don’t know if he was trying to make a point and went to trial that it was his “right” to kill someone lying on the floor. I wish I had more details of the case.

Rob

To Karolyn, I would not have had to have shot him 5 times.

Karolyn and Robert, I challenge you both to review the video once more and tell me with complete certainty and without a shadow of a doubt that Antwun Parked no longer posed a threat to Ersland. You cannot see the perp in the video at the end to honestly determine whether he was or was not a threat.

I say your comments are based on pure conjecture.

The double standard that constantly spews from karolyn and Robert S. is amazing. Pity the perp that would have killed Erslund without even thinking twice about it, but give no such consideration to an unborn child. You two have got to be two of the biggest hypocrites on these boards. And karolyn, why are you so upset anyway..now Antwan’s spirit is free! lmao

Thamera – Yes, he is free, lucky guy. We are talking about law and facts here; or at least that’s what it should be about!

Karolyn, I wasn’t there, so I don’t know how the situation unfolded, things can get out of hand at the heat of the moment. so what would you do?

Al – What would I do. First of all, I would never have a gun. I don’t have a problem with people having them, but I believe that if you have a gun, it is just asking for trouble. However, if I, in another life, was in that position, I believe I would have not run after the other kid, immediately dialed 911 and just kept my gun on the one that was shot, depending on his condition.

Karolyn, I live a good 20 miles from local law enforcement and they don’t always show up when you call them, or never show up. I live off the grid in the mountains where cell phones barely work, what would you do?

Logically, I’d say I’d do what Karolyn said she thought she would do; realistically, I would have peed my pants and shot the hell out of him.

Its a sad thing that I say this Karolyn, But you are one of those people who need to have some one come into your home an do to you what they have been doing to others. These guys rape, rob, and kill. And you feel sorry for them. Then maybe you will understand the anger the rest of us feel to these people who do these things. I have had several attemps at robery. It did not work because I have no problem fighting back. and a couple of times my 45cal was bigger than their knifes. Once it was just luck of my fighting back and taking their fire arm. Yes you need to feel the pain others have felt. Then maybe you would understand.

Definition of a lieberal: Someone who sees no problem with others being raped, robbed, and murdered, but who would scream bloody murder if another did the same to them.

Bob:

Your definition is correct.

Well, gee, Bob, I’m sure glad I’m not a lieberal!

I NEVER SAID I FELT SORRY FOR ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!! Where is everybody getting this impression? It is so sad that people cannot read the words that others write without reading something else into them!

karolyn – What????!!!!!

We’ve been responding to EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID.

Actually not, a jury is a judgement panel of our peers who are suposed to judge our actions not only on the law but on the morals of each individual juror. A judge instructs the jurors on how thier supposed to weigh the evidence, he does not tell them how they are to come to thier conclusion (guilty or not). Ever heard of OJ. (not the best example but you should be able to get my point).

Karolyn writes:
“Then you would have been derelict in your duty to reach a verdict based on law and not emotion.”

Duty? you speak of duty?

http://www.FIJA.org

Karolyn Go forth and gain wisdom.

Oh Vicki, you just had to post that didn’t you.

You are so right. He would have gotten medical treatment…on our dime. Served some time…probably not much…..on our dime. He would have been released and gone right back to robbing businesses and the second or third time he could kill an innocent person. I would say he got what he deserves, but Jerome didn’t. That man should be free and walking tall and proud.

I must have missed it. Was he just moving and moaning in pain, or was he reaching for his gun? And was his gun where he could have reached it and killed his intended victim?

I think those siding with the strict interpretation of the law need to find themselves in that situation, remembering that they would needs be handicapped themselves, so not able to escape in a hurry!

I think there are a lot finer points in self-defense to be considered. And they are not covered from either side in this presentation. I get the feeling that some people feel it is open and shut case, but what was the mental state of the store guy? Etc.

You seem to neglect the fact that there are laws against murder and manslaughter.

You seem to neglect that there are laws against armed robbery and responding, in kind, to that threat.

But a self appointed judge, jury, and executioner is NOT what America is about.

I would have been heartsick to find him guilty for dispatching the scum, but guilty he was. He was in no way immediately threatened. I watched the video and his actions were cold blooded murder by our laws.

As gun owners we must be responsible.

Rob

Manslauhter at the very worst, 1st degree murder and life in prison is wrong and a travesty in this case.

Robert, have a gun shoved in your face and be threatened by someone like Parker and his criminal buddie and you will defend yourself…kill or be killed. Parker isn’t the victim here, he initiated the threat and payed the ultimate price, with his life. He will threaten no more.

Mr. Smith,
I am a responsible gun owner in Texas, and let me tell you someone who breaks into my home or place of business brandishing a weapon will not get any mercy from me. By commiting that act of pointing thier weapon at me they shown a total disregard for my safety and the safety of my family, friends, and/or co-workers. I will either take him down or die trying. How am i supposed to know what his intentions are, shoot first ask questions later in a case such as this. since he does not care about me means he does not care about others and will in all probability do this again and has done it before.

Leave it to the libs to side with the criminal.

When people decide to commit armed robbery, they take on responsibility for the possible outcomes. One of those is that they are killed.

By going ahead, they are agreeing to the risks. The robber bet the odds, and he lost.

Kate8, my thoughts exactly.

Robert, I happen to agree with you. I’m not a bleeding-heart liberal, but I am a woman who interprets the law. Criminal Law was my first goal in my education pursuits, but alas, due to marriage and children coming into my life, it dropped to the wayside. However, I still study it. Ersland should not have been charged with 1st degree murder… he did not plan this attack, with malice of forethought. At the very least, voluntary manslaughter, because he had a choice at that point. Like you said, he could have held the gun on Antwun, taken any perceived threats (weapons, etc.) away from the vicinity of Antwun so that they could not be used against him, and waited for law enforcement to arrive to take over. Because Ersland emptied a second weapon with 5 shots, to dispatch Antwun, that is why he was charged with 1st degree murder. Even if you have a gun to protect your home, etc., if you chase the perpetrator out of the house, and off your property, that perpetrator is no longer a threat to your home, to your family, etc., but if you kill that perpetrator after the perceived threat is removed, then you are guilty of 1st degree murder. Ersland still perceived Antwun as a threat, but he could have been minimized at the point that Ersland killed him. So, this was considered aggravated. Therefore, the 1st degree murder charge. A split second decision that cost him his freedom.

I applaud Ersland for doing what he did, but the letter of the law was followed, in this case. And that is what the jury convicted him on… the letter of the law.

Robert Smith says:
June 2, 2011 at 8:58 am
But a self appointed judge, jury, and executioner is NOT what America is about.

I would have been heartsick to find him guilty for dispatching the scum, but guilty he was. He was in no way immediately threatened. I watched the video and his actions were cold blooded murder by our laws.

As gun owners we must be responsible.

Rob
**********************************************************************
Maybe if he had some book learning, he would have weighed the consequences of what could hapen if his crime of robberie went wrong.
Kinda like going sky diving..if have to think about what could go wrong(parachute fails to open) THINK BEFORE YOU LEAP!! I

Karolyn, Robert and others.

Based on the video evidence presented (and what little was in the story) How can you possibly presume to know that the threat (parker) had been neutralized?

Parker had a gun. Parker is not visible to us when Ersland approached. You can not possibly know that parker was incapacitated.

What you can know is that an eyewitness determined that Parker was still a threat. That witness being Ersland.

Since you have presented straw man arguments that Parker was incapacitated I will present the straw man argument that he was not and had raised the gun (that we know he had) and pointed it at Mr. Ersland. Mr. Ersland fired in self defense. (for the 2nd time in under a min) )

I assert that the available facts support my argument and do not support yours.

Vicki makes a dumb argument when she says: “Since you have presented straw man arguments that Parker was incapacitated I will present the straw man argument that he was not and had raised the gun (that we know he had) and pointed it at Mr. Ersland. Mr. Ersland fired in self defense. (for the 2nd time in under a min)”

It is NOT a “straw man” argument such that Jerome Ersland might have felt “threatened” immediately before he dispatched the perp with 5 rounds. He had TURNED HIS BACK as he went out for the second gun. That is not the action of a man worried about a perp plugging him. He had enough confidence that he wouldn’t be shot that he walked out, got the second gun, and came back and shot the perp.

Did you actually watch the video?

Rob

Robert Smith says:
“Vicki makes a dumb argument when she says:”

Poorly hidden ad hominem attack. I accept the debate win.

Robert Smith: “Did you actually watch the video?”

Yes. Did you?

Btw Robert. You really should have pointed out that parker (the one shot) did not appear to have a gun in the video we saw. This does NOT mean he did not have a gun. Just that he was not seen on the video as having one.

The perp who clearly had a gun is the one who ran away.

This is why I asked if you had actually watched the video.

antwan neglected the fact that there are laws against the use of deadly force in committing a crime. Antwan is the dumbass who chose the wrong person to perpetrate his crime against. Antwan must have been spawned by ignorant appeasers such as yourself, who would waste breath in his defense.

You seem to “neglect the fact” that there are LAWS AGAINST ARMED ROBBERIES too! Maybe the next home invasion will be at your house and no one will get killed because you clearly don’t like the idea of self-defense. Oh wait, that would be different wouldn’t it? You and people just like you always take that side of the issue until you and people just like you are the victims of these thugs and creeps that roam our streets because the justice system protects the criminal! Like someone else already said. Get off the Kool-Aid.

Did you actually watch the video Carolyn? There was NO DANGER at the time he executed the perp.

Yes, our system is broken.

Yes, perps often get off on technicalities.

Yes, people are allowed to defend themselves.

But he wasn’t defending himself. The immediate danger had been neutralized. By our laws there was no reason for him to kill Antwan. The fact that I agree Antwan deserved what he got does not change the fact that he was murdered.

We have a thing called “due process.” We aren’t allowed to make that up as we go along.

And, it looks like at least 12 other Americans agree with me.

Rob

Robert, how can you say, in good conscience, that Parker was STILL not a threat. The video doesn’t show anything that proves he wasn’t still a threat because you can not see him. Pure conjecture on your part as well as the DA and the jury. We’ve exchanged before and I’ve seen your fence strattling stance as a gun owner before. I didn’t buy into your “we must be responsible” and I don’t buy into your “we must be responsible now”.

Parker was resonsible for his own demise the moment he brandished his firearm inside the pharmacy and threatened those people inside.

JeffH – If I were in that position, I’d be terrified out of my wits. I wouldn’t stop to analyze whether there was still imminent threat. I’d be operating under the assumption that the whole situation posed a threat, and adrenalin would be pumping.

It’s easy to sit and make judgments about the acions of another from the comfort of one’s chair. From my limited experience with life-threatening situations, I can understand how one would act first, ask questions later. I may well have reacted the same way.

Robert Smith writes:
“Did you actually watch the video Carolyn? There was NO DANGER at the time he executed the perp.”

You can not possibly know that from the video. Parker is not visible. The only known eyewitness saw parker as still being a threat. Based on the evidence provided, you 13 are in error.

Seems there are a whole lot of us who can see what’s before us. Too bad you can’t see it.

There is a old saying I heard once. That a conservative was once a liberal who had been rob or assalted.

I wasn’t robbed or assualted, i just grew up and faced the facts of life through the eyes of a god fearing individual.

BKW:

Several years ago a liberal Congressman was mugged in the hall of his office building. The next day he wanted the punishment for mugging changed to the death penalty.

45, It’s not just the nature of the crime in itself, either. It’s the feeling of personal invasion.

Years ago, when my sister was stationed in Albequerque, NM, she came home to find her house completely emptied. She was not harmed, but the feeling of being assaulted was so bad she had to move.

Imagine how much worse it is when one is actually, physically assaulted and/or threatened.

Frankly, I hope none of us ever has to experience what this pharmacist did, but if we do, I think we will find that the fear factor and other emotions we suddenly find ourselves experiencing will cause us to do things we never expected we would or could do.

BINGO!

libertytrain–Very true.

So what do you think then, Karolyn, of Obama’s unlawful military actions in Libya which have resulted in the killing of many innocent victims? Is murder somehow okay because it comes at the order of a President?

Hear Hear!

Well said daveH,
She is in deep thought(dead silence) oops, you just overheated her brain

I doubt it, Jibbs. I’m sure she will respond with some kind of pollyanish comment.

Dave – I support helping repressed people to achieve freedom, and we have no troops on the ground there; however, I don’t think we need to be there. I also do not support our troops being in Afghanistan either. Contrary to what you might think, Obama is not my idol! I really never said anything to give anybody that impression. I do support some of his actions but not all. I do not believe he is the anti-christ though.

Vagabond: If you have read any of Karolyn’s posts you must already know that she lacks the intelligence to understand the situation and you should also know that she has a deep aversion to the truth. Perhaps she has overdosed on Kool Aid.

Bob – Actually, I am of above-average intelligence. It is you who lack the intelligence to have a civilized discourse with anyone who does not believe as you do.

Bob. Though I rarely agree with Karolyn I can tell by her posting that she is above average intelligence.

Karolyn. Bob did not challenge your overall intelligence level. Re read what he said.
“you must already know that she lacks the intelligence to understand the situation”

His claim is that you lack specific intel to understand the situation. This is correct since you were not there and what intel we have is very limited. The Jury probably had a lot more then we have here.

Vicki – I absolutely agree, and what has been posted here by everyone is sheer guesswork. We have taken what we heard and saw and come to our own conclusions, which have benefited no one. Isn’t that what the blog was all about? Stirring the pot?

“I absolutely agree, and what has been posted here by everyone is sheer guesswork.”

It is not guesswork that he turned his back on the perp as he went to get the second gun. He wasn’t running, or in any indicating that there was a threat behind him. HE didn’t believe that Antwan was a threat in that moment, why should we?

Then he came out with the second gun and mythodicaly pumped five rounds out.

Rob

Robert Smith writes:
“It is not guesswork that he turned his back on the perp as he went to get the second gun. He wasn’t running, or in any indicating that there was a threat behind him. HE didn’t believe that Antwan was a threat in that moment, why should we?

Then he came out with the second gun and mythodicaly pumped five rounds out. ”

Of course Mr Ersland turned his back on parker. At that time parker was not a threat. Mr. Ersland wasn’t running because he CAN’T run. If he could run he would have run with the other employees and escaped.

When Mr Ersland later approached parker Mr Ersland determined that parker was again a threat and responded by firing at parker again.

Very well said Isaac. and very true. unfortunately there are so many IDIOTS who would wrather the SLIMEBALLS be taken care of on the tax payers dime and released back into society so they can go right back to doing the same thing. wouldn’t it be nice if all those who defend antwun could get a visit from the antwuns of the world??

One day they will be faced with some choice about their life or another, and have to answer the call of what to do. It might be caring for an elder, it might be responding to an accident, or it might be staring down a dark, pre-dawn hallway at some jackass who decided their house was worth entering illegally. When the moment hits, and the adrenaline is pouring by the bucket in their veins, and they have the “fight or flight” moment…then the clock starts ticking. Tick…Tock. And, they might be judged by a jury of their “peers” about the results of their decision, when the probability of that jury to have ever faced the same situation is zero, and having a peer who can relate to the situation is non-existent when it comes to deciding their fate. If every American understood their Heritage and had a firm grasp of the Constitution, the Ten Amendments that are God-Given (not from mortal man), then there might truly be a restoration of something that resembles what the Founding Fathers intended. There might be a vastly greater respect for the rights and Liberties of another sovereign individual, and the understanding among all Americans that this nation affords then the equality of opportunity, but not the equality of outcome.

Better to be judged by 12, than to be carried by 6.

Jerome Ersland was judged by 12 and found guilty of murder. The tape did him in. He didn’t look like he was being threatened when he let loose with 5 rounds.

Rob

The comment about had the Colonel been in battle is no longer true. They have been after soldiers who the Polititions think over did there jobs. Now soldiers must have permission to shoot at a enemy combatant, With proof that they are in danger.

Isaac, this makes a very good case for regular range time!

Actually if Ersland had been a better shot and dealt out a double tap that was efective he whould have been OK.

But to come back and dump five rounds into someone on the floor was murder.

Rob

It is my understanding of the event that the Col.’s firt shot hit the kid in the head. If so, then it is likly the kid was already dead. Therefore, there was no need to shoot the kid 5 more times. On the other hand, it is likly the Col. did not KNOW the kid was dead, it is likly that in the heat of the moment the Col. was scared,confused and understandbly worried that the kid might get up, therefore he continued to shoot.

It is the second act of returning and shooting the kid 5 more times that got him convicted, though I fail to see how it becomes 1st degree Murder. Manslaughter , yes, no doubt but not 1st Degree. I suspect this will be overturned on appeal and reduced to manslaughter and sentence will be time served, as it will take a few years to get the re-trial.

In addition, there have been those who have suggested that the Col. is at fault because he was a “Trained” soldier. The Col. is retired Air Force, not Army or Marine. His training is most likly to fly planes, not engage in ground combat.

Whether trained or not, a person’s instinct for self-preservation will kick in when threatened.

Obviously, in that situation it is impossible to think clearly. Many actually innocent people have been shot and killed by policemen reacting to situations they perceived as threatening. Just look at the vet who was just gunned down in his own home by cops, shot what? 57 times?

It doesn’t matter what your training. The survival instinct trumps all.

Robert Smith…. I watched the video. You can’t see the kid on the floor. Maybe he wasn’t moving, but when Mr. Ersland came back, he was. You don’t know. And, if it were me, I would be so scared out of my wits that I wouldn’t be sure how I would react. If someone had a gun pointed at me, I would want to make sure the shooter was dead and I was safe. His conviction is a travesty of justice.

There is not one single person on here who can say they would not have done the same thing as the pharmacist did. If you do say this, then you have never been in that situation that this pharmacist was in. I side with the pharmacist. I would have voted for aquittel (not guilty) if I had been on that jury.

I know what your problem is, your brainwashed! I don’t know about you, but I choose life, not death at the hands of some stupid teenager, the Sheriff here in Missouri tells us, just don’t shoot’em in the back.

Crooks are many, cops are few, crooks carry guns, WHY can’t you ?

jibbs:

Some years ago in NYC a man broke into an apartment, stabbed the husband about twenty times and then slashed and tried to rape his wife. The husband, who wasn’t dead, crawled to a couch, pulled out a small gun, and shot the criminal in the leg. The criminal was picked up at a hospital.

The criminal spent three months in the hospital getting his meds straightened out since he had stopped using them. The husband spent three months in the hospital trying to live. The prosecutor dismissed all charges against the criminal because he wasn’t on his meds and therefore “not responsible” for his actions. Then he pressed charges against the husband for illegal possession of a weapon and assault on the criminal. The criminal testified for the husband and the charges were dismissed.

However a reporter asked the prosecutor why he had filed charges against the husband. “We have to convince the people in this country that home-based vigilanteism is wrong! After all, if the husband hadn’t shot him, we’d have found the criminal and punished him. It was wrong of him to try to harm the criminal.”

So – in other words – the prosecutor had no problem with the criminal killing the husband and raping and killing the wife. After all, they would capture and punish him. They did punish him – they locked him up in the hospital for three months to straighten out his meds.

45, that prosecutor is exactly what is wrong with our “law” system.
And in a “just” world Mr. Ersland would be at work today.
Thing is we live in a “law” system…not a “justice” system.

Your exactly right, Robin.

That’s the case with the jury that found pharmacist Jerome Ersland guilty of first-degree murder for shooting an armed man who entered his …
http://www.icarry.org/ftopict-5180.html

coal – For all we know Ersland might be a slimeball himself.

WOW, you really went there!!!!!

Now the pot is going to call the kettle black

Karolyn. Being a slimeball is NOT a crime. Nor is it cause to strip the person of the right of self defense. Now an interesting detail from the link that was posted by coal miner.

It is claimed that the first shots hit parker in the head. Ignoring for the moment multiple evidences of people still being able to act when shot in the head let us propose another straw man argument. Parker was in fact shot in the head and died from that shot.

He was already dead when Ersland shot a corpse 5 times. How is that murder in any degree?

Sticking up for the armed robbers is normal for Karolyn. I will not respond to any of her post as it would be useless to.

Just because somebody is a veteran doesn’t make them a good person. And Wayne, I am not sticking up for criminals!

slapjack – These are the same people who champion infanticide, euthanasia and death panels. They support the criminalization of conservatism, will most likely look the other way when round-ups begin…

But we must protect the criminals! After all, he was just a kid!

Sickos.

there is a sad sort of peculiar humor about what you said and what you said is true.

Kate – Your unfounded descriptions of and atrributions to those who disagree with you do not serve you well. You, as with most conservatives, do tend to generalize too much.

Being a bit hypocritical aren’t we?

karolyn – History supports my assessment of what’s coming.

It’s always the same.

Amen!

jibbs: ” guess as far as you are concerned, it’s o.k. for cops to shoot to kill first and save their life, only to find out they were at the wrong house…WTG”

Duh! No-ooo!

Reply
karolyn says:
June 2, 2011 at 1:18 pm
jibbs: ” guess as far as you are concerned, it’s o.k. for cops to shoot to kill first and save their life, only to find out they were at the wrong house…WTG”

Duh! No-ooo!

********************************************************************** Are you starting to see what we are saying? There is no way I would wait to see if the criminal pointing a gun at me will shoot, I goingto live one way or the other, if I’m armed, I shhot first and decide later. Put it this way, if a rapist grabbed you on the street and started dragging you away to rape you, would you sumit and go quietly, or kick, scream, claw or what ever it takes to get free, and maybe live to see another day? If you chose to stay quite, chances are you won’t see tomrrow, as has happened far too many times.

As a matter of fact, I will be taking a self-defense class next month. Of course, I am a human being; I will defend myself if someone wants to harm me!

karolyn says:
June 2, 2011 at 2:22 pm
As a matter of fact, I will be taking a self-defense class next month. Of course, I am a human being; I will defend myself if someone wants to harm me!

Karolyn, thats what Mr. Ersland was doing!! What are your view’s on the ex-Marine that the SWAT team fired 71 rds. into in 7 seconds? I’ve not heard anything stating there was any reason for them being at his home, and some are worried that a man that was being robbed at gun point, protected himself. Even with an additional five rds. to secure his own life, doe’s not compare to 71 rds. Doe’s your state allow you to carrie a firearm? and will you take the CCw clas and arm yourself…we do have that right.

jibbs, if memory serves me correctly, only 60 of the 71 rounds found their unintended target.

SC is very gun friendly Jibbs, but I will never have one. I have my two dogs here at home. Nobody in their right mind would come in here with the ruckus they create every time they even hear a car, never mind somebody walking outside. (I live in the woods.) Probably 9 out of 10 houses here have guns, and we rarely have shootings. I feel that if I had a gun, it would be asking for trouble.

Karolyn says:
June 2, 2011 at 5:56 pm
SC is very gun friendly Jibbs, but I will never have one. I have my two dogs here at home. Nobody in their right mind would come in here with the ruckus they create every time they even hear a car, never mind somebody walking outside. (I live in the woods.) Probably 9 out of 10 houses here have guns, and we rarely have shootings. I feel that if I had a gun, it would be asking for trouble.
**********************************************************************
Karolyn, the guns are in “other Home’s”, thats to far away, as for your dogs, criminals with guns don’t care, they will shoot them just as they will you. I’m not being mean, just truthful. I have two dogs also and they are just like family, and if they were shot that would tear my heart out. Think of you and those in your home. Criminals don’t know if you are armed or not, and a gun is better that a bat if they have guns. In your castlle, you and your family/friends are number one!

Please take the time to consider. Like I said in my previous post, it took the Sheriff 45 minute’s to get to my house after the alarm went off! Thats way to long when your life is at stake!!

This is what has been happening to our saciaty since the mid 60′s. These groups of people who think its our faught that they are criminals. Its sociaty that made them this way. Not them. Its all part of the distruction of our justice system. Away to say if they did not have guns this would not have happened. This young poor kid was only in need of food. He wouldn’t hurt a fly. The District (Attorneys) are only intrested in his future political carear. They don’t care if you were right or wrong. Only that they win their case. The law no longer means any thing to them. It is time to fight back against the criminals, and these so called legal reps. The judges and attorneys who have forgotten what they stand for.

Well said.
We live in a society of win at all costs, damned be the consequences. Attorneys do it, it happens in most sports, in our work places. Our common sense morals do not prevail any more. Our moral decline has lead to the sense that it was not my fault because i was abused or what ever. Look at the current case of Casey Riley whose defense for killing her little girl was i was abused by my father.

People have choices to make in thier lives, you can chose to do bad or you can chose to do good. If you chose wrong you should pay (hopefully not with your life) not your abuser or the person who caught you.

What a tragedy / travesty

Push – How said that when we are left to make flash decisions during a moment of extreme, life-threatening crisis, our lives can be destroyed if the system later decides it doesn’t agree with your choice.

Would it have had a different outcome if the robber had been of a different skin-tone? One can’t help but wonder that, and also who was sitting on that jury. Were they putting themselves in that same situation, or were they secretly deciding to right some perceived past collective wrong.

It’s pathetic that we have to even consider such things today. PC would insist that it go unmentioned. We witness so much injustice at the hands of the “system” (or when they look the other way) that many have simply detached themselves from the plights of others.

This is sickening and outrageous. We need to pray that this man be released.

Sadly, he is only one of many victims of gross miscarriage of justice.

I hope skin has nothing to do with it, but you never know. There are still some neanderthals running around in this world. I have been in situations that i have felt were life threatening, in one case a man was trying to forcibly enter my house (he was an agry drunk). I had one hand on the front door and my second hand on the slide action of my shotgun. Boy was the adrenaline pumping. In this mans case of being disabled i do not blame him one iota for making sure this scum would not manage to get up and try again.

Maybe the governor of OK will see the wrong done here and provide a pardon.

Poor Kid? If the kid was so poor and starving then how did he buy the gun he pointed at this guy to try to rob him?
Go Prices Guns!
They aren’t cheap.
I carry a 1911A1 for protection, it is the most expensive thing I own next to my home and truck, and the shape the truck is in that might be debatable.

I do believe this man was guilty of Manslaughter, possibly a lower degree of murder even, but not murder 1, doesn’t that infer premeditation and planning to kill someone?
His only “planning” was to have the means to protect himself, the Kid as you call him instigated this encounter, the initial shooting was the kids fault and was in defense.

Coming back and finishing him off was wrong. I just don’t think it was 1st degree murder,

Pete, well said. There isn’t a fine line between vigilante-ism and self defense unless you’re a bleeding heart like the DA in this case.
I guess Oklahoma has it;s share of sheep just like the rest of the nation.

Gotta wonder if he got a note, a job offer and a hoo-rah from Holder?

Jeff,

It’s possible ! A good example of “job security”. Maybe Holder has a job for this DA after the 2012 election, if Obama wins ? That sure would explain much if it happens !

From what I understand of self defense law, it’s self defense as long as the original attack is taking place. If the attacker is wounded and on the ground unable to continue or resume the attack shooting him while he’s on the ground is no longer self defense. Personally I would not have charged Ersland with any crime, but what he did was technically wrong.

My belief is that you use the biggest gun you can handle well, have reloads available, use the best expanding ammunition you can get, and shoot the sucker as many times as he needs shot. If his unarmed buddy gets away, too bad, but don’t go back for more on the one who’s down. In most places chasing someone down and shooting them is a separate assault no matter whether or not they were earlier attacking you or not.

Get a good .45 ACP, some good spare magazines, load ‘em all up with good hollow point ammunition, learn how to shoot, then take care of business.

Technically, you’re right Larry. But what have we come to when the perpetrators of a crime are given every advantage? They can initiate an action, then when they see they’re outgunned, they can just say “I give” or run and everything’s okay? That puts the surprised victims at a severe disadvantage.
And the police sure don’t abide by those rules. If the perp so much as reaches for a weapon, they will gun him down without blinking. Why is that? Why does the Government set up us ordinary citizens to be victims, but do everything they can to prevent themselves from being victims?
I think Government doesn’t really want to end crime because if they did, they would be out of a job.

Dave H

I agree with you. If it had been a cop and the guy was still moving and a threat the cop would have shot again without a doubt, and rightly so. However a civilian seems to be a different story. It is easy to sit in judgement of someone when you have no threat to you at all and say this or that is right or wrong, but if they had been in that drug store at the time they may have seen the situation in a different light ! This man was in the military and his education in self defence is pounded in to them right from the beginning and they must learn it or know they will die if they don’t. Then they come home and somewhere down the road some stupid erogant person walks in to your work place and threatens your life and you are suppose to forget everything you were taught and react in a way that is politically correct . Never mind the guy that came in that door was fully ready to do you some great bodily harm at any moment and for no good reason what so ever. Do I feel sorry for the dead guy? Not on your life, he got exactly what he had comming to him. If he had never come into that drug store with the intentions he had he would be alive today. It is his own fault he is dead and no-one elses ! They should turn mr. Ersland free and give him a medal for serving his country twice !

What about the shooters training? As military veteran, his training in a volatile tactical situation would be different than police training. Even a citizen with no training would have a much different response. I wonder if the defense attorney tried to cast justifiable doubt based on civilian training (thus the expected outcome)verses military training (the actual outcome). Did the jury even consider their duty to NOT find guilt if there is any reasonable doubt! But in the end, who initiated the life and death situation? That is the person responsible!!!

The info that would have shown the Jury that Parker was still a threat was not in the video we were shown. Hence we have to go with the testimony of the only available witness. Mr. Ersland. Since none of us were in the courtroom we don’t know how he testified. That he did shoot Mr Parker implies to us that Mr. Ersland did see Parker as a threat.

Since we know that Parker had a gun, was willing and had used it, and we don’t know that Parker was neutralized by the initial shots that apparently hit him the evidence presented shows the jury to be in error. Parker was still a treat and Mr Ersland was not guilty of murder by reason of self defense.

vicki

Right ON !

Update. We do NOT know that parker had a gun. The video does not show him brandishing one. It is the other perp who brandishes a gun.

This does NOT mean that parker was unarmed. The evidence that parker was still a threat is in the actions of Mr Ersland as seen in the video. At first Mr Ersland shows no concern for his safety with respect to parker but as Ersland approached parker Mr Ersland opens fire indicating that parker had done something to indicate he was AGAIN a threat to Mr Ersland.

When you shoot a guy in the head, and he is lying on the floor unconscious, he is not moving around, and his getting another weapon, and shooting him 5 more times is vindictiveness!!! You don’t have the right, even under self defense to shoot a many lying unconsious on the ground from a previous shot…he shot in ANGER!! not in Self defense!!! Plus he chased after the other guy, to kill him too!! I can uinderstand his anger, if someone comes at me with a gun, and threatens my life, yes I’m angry!!, but smart enough to shoot enough to stop his attack, and nothing more!! Then…call an ambulance, as though hoping he is still alive…shows you have interest in a fellow human being, and courts go easier on you!!

As much as I despise criminals, especially criminal maggots with guns…I tend to agree. Mr. Ersland did not have to re-enter the store at all, let alone walk past the wounded assailant and retrieve another gun.
It’s just a damned shame that the initial shots weren’t enough to kill
that piece of human filth.

Probably nothing really wrong with the jury. What is wrong is the law, and perhaps which points were presented by the defense. And the lack of common sense in the details of the law. Those who create laws are not usually full of common sense anymore!

The problem is our laws now are so constrained by the legal system they no longer make good sense, and, as here, victims are punished. They are unreasonably expected to know in any and every emergency the finest points of the law, and common sense is tossed out the window.

It is too bad that those who create these laws do not themselves have to confront real-life live guns and real life criminals BEFORE they write their laws in their ivory chambers.

it is the horrible state that our country is in. a person, defending his and other innocent people’s lives, becomes the victim. he should have beem given the key to the city and proclaimed a hero. how many other innocent people’s lives would have been effected by this criminal, if he got away with this armed robbery. to bad he only had 5 bullets to put into that slime opn the floor.

I agree. I hope that there will be a Mr Ersland or another hero around if I am ever in a situation with these no good thugs. This young boy would have killed anyone, without remorse, if he had the chance. If store owners shot more of them they might think twice about robbing peope.

I agree. I know that the Jury of 12 must have relatives and friends who are so ashamed of them! I can’t imagine why the DA ever charged Mr. Ersland with anything. His life has been ruined and all for what—-protecting himself and his fellow workers. He did do wrong in the additonal shots but he did it all in just a few seconds. No one knows how they would react in a situation like that. Now the mother of the dead boy is suing in a civil suit for 10,000 wrongful death!!!!! Unbelievable—she should be charged and have to pay some of Erslands legal fees.

There was a somewhat similar case in Florida where the criminal was not killed but sued the store owner for his disability caused by the owner from the gun shot wound. What you are seeing here is a nation that has forgotten it’s God, the US Constitution, and the wisdom of the founding fathers, and is over-run with lawyers. (Isn’t it interesting that one political party is composed almost exclusively of lawyers while the other is composed of regular people of all kinds). In place of the Republic our founding fathers gave us we have allowed our government, with the help of many lawyers, to morph into a “Democracy” which has always been, and always will be, a temporary form of government (once the population understands that it can vote itself goodies out of the public treasury it is only a matter of time until that government is broke and a dictatorship of some kind takes over to quell the chaos that results). It’s why I quoted the Army times in “The Last Days of the Late Great United States and the Great Famine that Followed” and told of the 20,000 troops that they are training, for when that day arrives.
As the Palestinians sang and danced in the street when the World Trade Center was attacked, and as they passed out candy a few months ago in celebration of their strike team that crossed over into Israel and cut the throats of a sleeping Israeli family (even the 3 month old child and this was discovered by the 12 year old daughter who was at a sleep over at a neighbors house) so they will continue to fight for the elimination of freedom in that part of the world. Sadly we have those in the media and in the schools here, educated by socialist teachers, who think that this is wonderful. As they support the Palestinian terrorists and blame Israel for the problems they cause, so they oppose our own country as well, and have taught our students to follow in their footsteps. Because some of them are union they cannot be fired. (NYC has about 200 unfit teachers who sit around all day, some collecting $100,000 of taxpayers money each year but who are not allowed contact with students for various reasons. Some read, some watch TV, one even runs a business from what some call the rubber room. In a normal society this would be considered insane but in an insane society this is consider normal). Los Angeles, spent over $3.5 million taxpayers dollars trying to fire seven unfit teachers but was only able to fire three of them.
It will take a miracle from God to stop the deterioration and destruction that is coming to our nation as a result of our those who reject the laws of God, the basic civic principles of our founding fathers and sound financial practices. If the United States were a rich nation we wouldn’t have to have a national debt but then how would all those thousands who live off the nearly thousand million PER DAY we pay in interest on that debt get by.
Considering that one state governor commuted the life sentences of all those on death row after he had irrefutable DNA proof that zealous prosecutors had sent a dozen innocent men to their death in his state I stated in my last book that any jury I am on will find me voting innocent. How can I possibly know if the prosecuting attorney is a just or honest man. They are all lawyers and worse yet politicians, and politics, as the ancient saint once said, “is God’s punishment to mankind for sin”. It is truly sad to see what is happening to this country but since we have the greatest Army on earth and spend more than all the others combined we can last longer than would otherwise be the case. That’s why they will have to continue printing dollars right up until the end and why WWIII may bring us back to full employment as WWII did.
Hopefully some of these things can be avoided and it may take years for the others to come about but better to be years to early than one day to late. Hopefully the readers here are among those who are preparing for what is coming. May God bless all who read this because they are going to need every blessing they can get in the not-to-distant future.

Richard, as always, well said and well thought out.

And a video to show the dangers of a “democracy”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

Yes, she raised him. She is responsible in some measure for how he turned out, and she should be tried for her supporting her son to murder by how she brought him up, and she should have to prove she did her best to raise him as a careful, loving, good citizen.

Judges routinely admonish jurors to rule only on whether the law was broken. But from common law we have the right as jurors to “nullify” a particular application of the law if we don’t think it’s right. The Judge cannot punish you for your “not guilty” verdict:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

“Jury Nullification” is a very controversial topic. If the judge even suspects a juror will not follow the law in deciding a verdict the judge will most likely dismiss that juror.

However, this is a right that we as citizen jurors have, and most of the time a conscience is more important than following the letter of the law, otherwise a computer could decide the fate of the accused based solely on the facts of law.

My advice, if you are picked as a jurer is to keep mum about jury nullification, and base your decision on whether justice will be applied fairly regardless of what the law says.

I’m sure that’s good advice, Aces, but the Government thrives on the citizens keeping their mouths shut and going with the flow. Bullies in general depend on their victims being complacent.

Not only is Jury Nullification our right but it is also our DUTY. It is the 3rd of the 4 boxes needed to defend freedom and justice (not “social justice”)

If most of us knew about and believed in Jury Nullification 2 interesting things would be sure to happen.

1. Many more people who just use recreational drugs would be acquitted.
2. There would be too many of us for the jury selection process to get us off jury duty.

Far as I know, I have never been considered for jury selection. It may be folks knew my family and how I was brought up, and didn’t want me on a jury! I am sure the government would not want me on a jury!!