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Abraham Lincoln, Political Tyrant

February 11, 2011 by  

Abraham Lincoln, Political Tyrant

We’ve spent a lot of time recently bashing “the worst President who ever lived.” (That’s the description of the current occupant of the White House by many of my readers.) Instead, this week let’s do something different. Let’s turn our attention to the President whose birthday we celebrate tomorrow… the Great Emancipator, who is generally acclaimed as the greatest American President of them all.

But was he, really?

I don’t know what they teach in United States history classes today, but back in the middle of the last century, when I was in elementary school, there was absolutely no question about how we were to regard Abraham Lincoln. We were taught to feel a reverence bordering on awe for Honest Abe, the eloquent martyr who saved the Union.

We were required to memorize the Gettysburg Address. And if we were lucky enough to join a field trip to our nation’s capital, one of the most significant events was our visit to the Lincoln Memorial. (A few of us rapscallions spoiled the solemnity of the moment by sliding down the sides of the monument.)

That was what we were taught in the grade schools of Cleveland. And I suspect it wasn’t any different in any other school in the North. Some of you sons and daughters of the South will have to tell me what your teachers and history books said.

It wasn’t until I became an adult and started reading history on my own that I began to doubt the version of events I was taught several decades earlier. For example, did you know that Lincoln suspended civil liberties in the North, including the writ of habeas corpus? That he filled the jails with more than 13,000 political prisoners, all incarcerated without due process? The Supreme Court protested Lincoln’s disregard for our Constitutional protections, but the President replied he had a war to fight. Since he commanded the army, Lincoln won that argument.

And speaking of the war, guess who uttered these words:

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable — a most sacred right — a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of their territory as they inhabit."

I’ll admit this is a trick question. The speaker was Lincoln. But he was not talking about the Southern states that tried to secede from the Union. No, these remarks were made in 1847, when Lincoln was defending the right of Texans to demand their independence from Mexico. A dozen years later, when six Southern states tried to declare their independence, Lincoln’s response was to smash them to bits.

As a child, I never questioned the assertion that the South was wrong to secede. And that Lincoln was right to use as much force as necessary to preserve the Union. Later, as I grew to understand the strength and uniqueness of our Constitutional Republic, I began to question both assumptions.

The U.S. Constitution, I came to believe, was a contract — a contract between the various states and the Federal government they created. Note that the Constitution had to be approved by the states, not a majority of the citizens. There was no "majority rule" here, no popular vote taken.

But this raises the question, if it was necessary for the states to adopt the Constitution, why wouldn’t it be legal for some of those states to rescind that vote, especially if they felt the contract had been broken? More and more, I found myself thinking that the South was legally and morally right in declaring its independence. And the North, by invading those states and waging war on them, was wrong.

And what a terrible war it was. By the time it was over, nearly 625,000 soldiers (and another 75,000 or so women, children and elderly civilians) were dead — more American servicemen than were killed in World War I, World War II, the Korean War and the Vietnam War combined. Fully one-fourth of the draft-age white population of the South was dead.

The devastation in the former States of the Confederacy is hard to imagine. Sherman’s march from Atlanta to Savannah is notorious for its savagery. But he was far from the only Northern officer who ordered his troops to lay waste to Southern farms, fields and plantations. Union troops routinely destroyed crops, sacked homes and even stabled their horses in Southern churches.

As H.W. Crocker III puts it in The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Civil War (Regnery Publishing, 2008), "If abiding by the law of a free republic and fighting a defensive war solely against armed combatants be flaws, the South had them and the North did not. Lincoln ignored the law, the Constitution, and the Supreme Court when it suited him. His armies waged war on the farms, livelihoods and people of the South, not just against their armies."

Of all the big lies about the War Between the States, the biggest of all may be that it was necessary to end slavery. The truth is that many illustrious Southerners, including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, recognized that slavery had to come to an end. But it should not come by force of arms, they felt; not at the point of a gun, but rather through the free consent of the owners, with the proper preparation of the slaves. To get them ready for their own freedom, for example, Lee’s wife insisted the family’s slaves be taught to read and write, and the women how to sew.

Despite what most of us have been taught, Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves. It wasn’t a law, but an edict. It specifically exempted the Border States and any parts of the South that were already under the control of Federal forces. It applied only to areas that were still in rebellion. So the Proclamation, of and by itself, did not free a single slave.

What it did, however, was change the nature of the conflict. Now the war was no longer about restoring the Union or preventing Southern independence. Now it was about the morality, and the legality, of slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation did not make the war more popular in the North, but it did end the possibility of other countries, especially France and Britain, from coming to the aid of the South. They might have been willing to assist Southern independence; but support a war in favor of slavery? Never.

As Crocker notes, "In Southern eyes, the Emancipation Proclamation was the ultimate in Yankee perfidy — an attempt to incite slave uprisings against Confederate women and children."

Then he notes, "Happily, while the proclamation did encourage slaves to seek their freedom, there were no slave uprisings, no murders of women and children — which might say something good about Southerners too, both white and black."

Lincoln, more than any other President who came before him, changed the very nature of our government. There would never again be as many limitations on the powers of the Federal government. And just as tragic, the concept of States’ rights suffered a blow from which it has never recovered.

I’m told that more than 14,000 books have been written about Lincoln. Most, of course, are incredibly adulatory. The few that attempt to balance the scales are virtually ignored. While it may not be true that might makes right, it is definitely true that the winners write the history books.

If you’re open-minded enough to consider another point of view, let me recommend two books by Thomas J. DiLorenzo to you: The Real Lincoln and Lincoln Unmasked. In these two books he presents a vastly different view of Abraham Lincoln than you’ve heard before, I promise.

Both are available at Amazon.com. (What isn’t?) Also, do yourself a favor and go to the website of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, where DiLorenzo serves as a senior fellow. You’ll find an extensive selection of articles, essays, and yes, books you can order that are way out of the academic mainstream.

So there you have this contrarian’s view of Abraham Lincoln. I’m eager to hear what some of you think — especially the sons and daughters of the South, whom I suspect, were raised with a somewhat different slant than I.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • John F. Tashjian

    I, also, was brought up to “revere” Abraham Lincoln; and, as is the case with you, Mr. Wood, I wound up finding that Honest Abe was/is just as flawed as everyone else. About the only difference between Lincoln and Obama is that, barely a week after the end of the American Civil War (beg pardon: “The War Between The States…[SNEEZE]), John Wilkes Booth assassinated Abraham Lincoln. Were that to happen today, Team Obama would retaliate by ordering everyone of the Right into either re-education camps or (however unlikely it seem nowadays) gulags.

  • Walt Chandler

    The North is so sanctimonious on the race issue. There were thousands of slaves in the North. Northern business men were responsible for most of the slave trade. By far; most people did not own slaves in the South. Check out the history on how racist the North were to Jewish people — even up until the 1970s! Another interesting fact is the number of Free Blacks that owned slaves for economic gain AND also another uncomfortable fact for many is that there were thousands of Free Black citizens in the South that were combat soldiers for The Confederacy.Yes, the holier than thou Northerners makes me sick.

  • Jwoop

    Every argument between the states before the war was about slavery and its expansion into new territories. The war was not started by directly refering to slavery, but all the issues about secession were within two degrees of the issue of slavery. The war, indirectly, was about slavery. If there was no slavery, there would not have been a civil war. There were no other major disagreements.

    The south’s economy was based on cotton and tobacco. These products were produced by slaves. There wasn’t going to be any mass “freeing of slaves”. All the wealthiest citizens of the south were plantation owners. They were not going to give up any competitive advantage and start paying for labor.

    • Bruce D.

      I grew up in RI and the history books taught that the Feds were making slavery in the territories illegal. The South felt that eventually the North would dominate the South because of this if the territories became States. So I think you are right. States rights and slavery were intertwined as it was creating a divide and a power struggle between the North and the South.

    • dan

      I would hope that you would consider what the electoral college would have had to do with NEW states admitted…and the preconditions that
      precipitated their admission and the rights of the ESTABLISHED states
      to determine their business /economic practices….although I can tell by your post that you have been to public school…sigh

  • Dean

    The Lincoln that exist in the revisionist history books of this nation is a complete fantasy character! It was Lincoln that brought us “Washington D.C. is superior to the States”, which is totally contrary to our Constitution. Lincoln had no respect for blacks and if you’re looking for someone of that era that was concerned for the well being of blacks, look up Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson!

  • Billy Cooper

    COME TO THINK OF IT, SOME OF US , MYSELF INCLUDED DONT LIKE THE WAY THE GAME IS BEING PLAYED IN WASHINGTON TODAY.BUT WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO. THE GOVERNMENT IS RUNNING ROUGHSHOD OVER THE STATE OF ARIZONA. THE CONSTITUTION IS BEING TRAMPLED EVERYDAY BY THIS ADMINISTRATION. AS FOR ME GIVE, ME A PRESIDENT LINCOLN. THE WAY I SEE IT, ANYTHING BEING WRITTEN ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING BACK IN LINCOLN’S DAY, IS PURELY HEAR SAY. NONE OF THE WRITERS REALLY KNOW, ONLY GUESSING, AND FORMING OPINIONS. AND YOU KNOW ABOUT OPINIONS, EVERYBODY HAS GOT ONE.

  • Vic Bailey

    As usual when someone dies they become a hero no matter how bad a person they were. The South was mad because they were paying 5 times more taxes than the north because of all the ports in the south. They tried to level the taxes but the indrustrial North wasn’t going to change anything. Lincoln was a tyrant and a shyster lawyer and that is the reason this United States are so screwed up is because of so many Greedy Shyster Lawyers in too many offices in Washington. They make the laws and they know how to break them. Lincoln was NO hero, he was a typical shyster lawyer of the times. As far as being honest Abe wrong again, he was like Bama in ONE respect, he was born somewhere else and said he was from a totally different state, see, ALL LAWYERS LIE, it’s in their blood, just like TV Preachers. Semper Fi.

    • JIBBS

      So what, Lincoln was from a different state, nobama is from a different country. Please go check your facts again.

  • GenEarly

    If you win the war, you get to write the history. As a Southerner, I still feel the taste of defeat and the respect for my great grandfather from NC, who was a poor farmer,with no slaves, who fought with the general I am named after.
    States Rights was destroyed by this war and the 17th Amendment in 1913.
    The War was a failure of elected leaders North & South and THAT is the lesson for us to understand today.Politicians will not avert disasters, either Financial or Constitutionally.
    Progressives progress,so Lincoln,Wilson,Teddy Roosevelt,FDR,LBJ,Carter,Bush,Clinton,Obama are a continuum of less freedom and more Federal Government; less Constitution, more Tyranny.

    • Vic Bailey

      GenEarly, I totally agree, being from GA. it’s still the same thing going on now, the DemocRATS want Big government and higher taxes and steal from the taxpayer and take their retirement and anything else they can steal and when they die they will be heroes, WRONG. Anytime you step on the Constitution you ARE a TYRANT, as Lincoln was, the only good thing he did was get rid of a central banking complex. Everything else was questionable. Semper Fi.

  • Theresa Curran

    Well done, Chip. A recent European visitor to my home was curious as to our Civil War and the preoccupation with it that is so prevalent here in the South. He was surprised that I felt that slavery was made an issue to legitimize the invasion of the South by Northern forces and that Northerners were really not quite so noble when it came to slavery.
    As you so clearly point out, chasing the dollar bill is what is left after you distill the other factors out of the mix. It always comes down to that. Nothing has changed in 150 years. P.S. I am a Yankee raised on the same canards about the war as you were.

  • Mac

    On the narrow subject of States Rights, I believe the Confederate states were denied their right to secede from the Union. I think Nancy went a little overboard in thinking that Chip has gone to the Dark Side for expressing these facts and opinions.

  • James T Sparks

    Many people don’t realize that some free black own slaves. Also the blacks in New Orleans fought against the union army. I am not defended slavery at all but the war between the states was not about that. Also New York city almost left the Union. Stuff that you don’t read about in most history book. Lincoln violated the constitution by disobeying it,

  • Dale

    In the twenty five years after 1865 congress passed laws to make Lincoln’s actions during the war legal. Lincoln broke more laws than we can discuss. However, those federalists who supported the “need to preserve the union” so that the federal government could force the states to comply with “its” will, over the next 75 years re-wrote history and changed the “motivation” for a war that should have never been fought. They perpetuate this false “the greatest president” myth. Someday, maybe in a few hundred years, the history books will be re-written. Only then will we begin to recognize the truth, and the truth is that, without doubt, Lincoln was the worst president this country ever had. He has the blood of 750,000 people on his hands. A percentage of the total population greater that the percentage that Stalin killed in his “purges”. And we perpetuate the idea that a democracy is the best form of government ever because we all get a vote, but as George Carlin said “if our vote counted for anything, they wouldn’t let us”. We are all “slaves” to the establishment inside the beltway, and they are going to keep it that way whether they are Republicans or Democrats, because they are all the politically elite.

    • Hank, MO

      Dale–
      I hate it when someone’s argument leads to an affirmation of the statement: We’re all helpless, and there’s nothing we can do– we’re going to remain helpless.
      That’s absurd. We’re not helpless except when we ALLOW ourselves to be subjects of some government, person or ideology. As long as a person has a mind and is willing to use it, he is not helpless. Try using yours to liberate yourself from the common mind-set that the government is all-powerful; from your subjugation to the idea that you are a victim of your circumstances without power to change them; and from the apparent conclusion that being helpless is a virtue.

  • John W Goerger

    Well, we now see the communists attacking a beloved and honored President–poor dumbminded closeminded folks—just what the communists wanted; Long Live the UNION!
    In reading this article can see there are still ‘red’necks (now we know what a real ‘redneck’ is a commie-wannabe) who hate this Nation, called The United States of America and want to see it break apart!President Lincoln was one of this Nation’s Greatest President’s!

    • Vic Bailey

      John W Goerger, as usual you are mistaken, I have NEVER met anyone in these great UNITED STATES that wants to break up the Republic, BUT I have met quite a few that would like to do away with this Greedy, Warmongering, Lying, Stealing, Killing, Oversized Government, and rightly so. This government is no more Constitutional than a pack of mad dogs. They will step on, tramp down, undermind, and do any other deciteful thing to get whatever THEY want. Lincoln was NO different. As long as the government keep their nose out of OUR business we will prosper, but the minute they start getting in OUR business and stealing from us, WE LOSE. It’s not our country that is bad it’s the government, just like Egypt, we have a government problem NOT a country problem. Semper Fi.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Vic Bailey,
        Best way to say it is with the words of Mark Twain. Respect your country ALWAYS! Respect your government when they earn it!!!

    • JIBBS

      I think you might be close-minded. Why do you call us “rednecks”? I don’t call you “yankee”. I think you should go read up on history and educate youself before you open your mouth next time. And if you still want to call us rednecks, come on down south and say it to our faces, I think you might be surprised by the education you will recieve, it won’t be in the form of an a#$ beating, but rather in the form on a tongue lashing. I’d give anything to see you walk away with your head way down betwwen your legs, completely insulted by your own words being ripped apart and throw in you lap.

      Life’s tough, even tougher if your stupid – John Wayne

      • John W Goerger

        Guess I really ticked off the commies in this conversation and that is good thing! By-the-Way my term “UNION” is what was called the North—AMERICA! Redneck equals a closeminded, commie/facists!
        Amazes me how many love to Hate this wonderful Nation yet try and take a Excellent President as President Lincoln and try to by “hook and crook” to find illogical and unreasoned (half-truths) thought processes to somehow try to link him with the people who are in the White House whom I never voted for!

      • DaveH

        It amazes me that your comments amount to not informing anybody with your facts but rather personally attacking those who you don’t agree with.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        John W Goerger,
        I’d be willing to bet you didn’t vote for Lincoln either!!!

    • LES

      Do you know what a “REDNECK” is ? Back in the 20s when the union members were fighting the people brought in by the companies to break up the unions, the union members wore red scarfs so the groups would know which side you were on.

      • James Reeves

        Gee I am learning. I always thought redneck was from our sunburn from working out in the sun.
        Thanks.
        James from Alabama

      • independant thinker

        james, I have heard both your and Les’s origins of the term now here is another I have heard. The term redneck comes from the red clay dust that flew up and settled on the necks of the farmers in certain areas of the South. There is probably some truth to all three origins.

      • libertytrain

        I don’t think many bother to Google it cause they always “assume” they know the origins.

      • independant thinker

        Les, Seems like I heard this occured in the West Virginia coal fields.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      That is what I was taught growing up, but after investigating it, Ive found it not to be so. Just as I investigated this guy named Jesus, and Ive found it all to be true. One can find answers and the truth to all things, if they just look. Its all there. Now I dont believe all the bad things I hear, even in these posts, but I do believe things I have read about, that I can see happened without a doubt, and put 2 and 2 together to get the answer. He wasnt as rosy as we were taught in school. And to think growing up, I actually thought everything Walter Cronkite said was true, and when I started examing things later in life, boy was I ever let down when I found out he was a huge liar also. So research things, to get answers. Dont accept everything people tell you. Dont believe everything a Pastor tells you. See if the scriptures back up what he says. If they do, then its great, if they dont, you need to confront him and find out why he is saying what he says. But seek the truth, and you will find it.

  • Sapphira Sez

    When I arrived at college in 1962, I was seated next to a young man from New York. He asked where I was from, and I told him “Texas”, to which he responded, “Oh youse guys are still fighting the Civil War.” Astounded, I replied that I had not thought of the “Civil War” since sophomore American History class, so it must be HE who was obsessed with that war. BTW, we were taught from the same history books that you had in Cleveland, but being a person with a brain, I was skeptical that we Southerners could be such horrible people so I did my own research. Turns out, Lincoln was not the Messiah, anymore than the Kenyan is. What I say is, Beware when you’re told over and over that someone is fabulous, not a flaw anywhere. It’s most likely a lie. It pays to be skeptical.

    • Biff

      Sapphira Sez: “What I say is, Beware when you’re told over and over that someone is fabulous, not a flaw anywhere. It’s most likely a lie. It pays to be skeptical.”
      What I Sez: If this applies to Lincoln, does it apply to Jesus and the Bible? Mohammed and the Quran?

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Biff,
        you compare apples and Oranges!!! Lincoln was a man while Jesus was a perfect being!! BIG DIFFERENCE!! I revere NO man on that level!!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Jesus Christ is perfect. Flawless, without sin. The only one ever Biff. And He beat death, and never went into the ground to rot and bet eaten by worms. Mohammed is dead and his bones are still in the grave he was buried in, as is John Smith and the creator of every religion known to man. Only Jesus Christ is alive. Now that is a Saviour worth of my praise. If a so called god cant beat death, Im not following them. My God lives, and He is, the only one. And also, it is written, No one has the Father, without the Son. If you dont have the Son, you do not have the Father. So without Jesus, good luck. Im just sayin…………

      • Average Joe

        Biff,

        A.D.D.? I only ask because you seem to have trouble staying on subject. The discussion at hand is about Abraham Lincoln….and not about Religion in any way,shape or form.
        In the future, please take your meds before commenting…..then…try to stay “on subject”.

        To be matter-of-fact about the world is to blunder into fantasy – and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful.
        Robert A. Heinlein

      • DaveH

        Strange, yes, but Wonderful I’m not so sure.

  • http://personalliberty.com The General

    I was raised in the South (although born in NE), and in our schools, Lincoln was revered much as he was in yours. We were taught the same things about him, and I can still recite: “Fourscore and seven years ago, our Fathers brought forth on this continent a new Nation ….”
    What was probably different, was the take on the South. Lee and Davis were also respected; although slavery was taught as a reason for the “War Between the States” (we never thought it was “civil”), so were states rights, legal secession, and defense of liberty/property. We were also taught that carpet-baggers sucked, and the Republicans of the 1870′s were evil hoodlums. That may explain why many Southern states still have a “Yellow Dog Democrat” majority, even though it is made up primarily of conservatives.

  • tomm

    An interesting and informative article. Thank you.

  • J.M.R.

    ALL OF THIS IS FINE, BUT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH PRESANT AND FUTURE AND THIS A&& HOLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE NEEDS T BE REPLACED. IMPEACHMENT FOR STARTERS AND THEN A FIRING SQUAD TO FINISH IT.

    • Chris

      Better be careful, JMR. Some fellows with initials on their bullet proof vests may be knocking on your door soon.

      • Bob

        I hope they are already, knocking on his door!

      • ValDM

        You would really wish this on someone? And they say the “left” is so much more in tune and “feel” so much more than the rest of us neanderthals. Please, please, go gabk under your rock and pull it in oever you.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Thats because you on the left are full of hate Bob. Why dont you try praying for the guy, if you care at all. Im praying for you, that your eyes and ears will be opened that the truth may be revealed to you, because its obvious by most of your posts, that your missing it.

  • Rick

    I have argued for many years that instead of being glorified as Lincoln was he should have been impeached. It would have been interesting to see what the coountry would have been like if he had not been assassinated. He had all the earmarks of someone who would not have been happy with just restoring the union. When a man tries to have the Chief Justice of the US arrested because the justiced ruled against him, it is a strong indication that the man is unstable and power hungry. IUt does make an interesting comparision. Lincoln didn’t like the Chief Justices rulings and he tries to havehim arrested. Obama doesn’t like the Courts ruling and he berates teh court during the state of the Union.

    • Granny Mae

      Humm, maybe they are related !

  • David

    Thanks for another good article.
    Another resource, from Southern viewpoint:
    A Defense of Virginia and the South by RL Dabney
    Link to PDF download in Wikipedia article about Dabney

    A Southern patriot told me that he wrote another book that dealt more with politics than slavery. I don’t know the title.

  • http://none Gil Zealey

    Chip, I’m afraid you have been led astray by Southern propaganda. During the period before 1860, there was no intent nor plan by Southerners to release slaves, neither in the long-term nor in the short-term. To say they wanted to gradually prepare slaves for free life is a total fabrication by people who cannot stand their own acceptance of evil. My evidence is the period following the CIVIL WAR when white Southerners had every opportunity to help the newly freed people but did everything in their power to restrain and hobble and kill them. This is true of the entire Southern white culture to which I was exposed while growing up. Do not be so accepting of someone else’s moral deficits.
    GZ

    • Dick Gazinia

      Also: the South fired first – Fort Sumpter. Your article implies that the Union just marched right to war with no provocation other than the declaration of secession.

      At the time there were two great cultural divides based on two distinct economic systems, one depended on agriculture supported by the institution of slavery. As in most wars, failed foreign policies, stubbornness, poor communication, and clinging to belief systems that were based on injustice to human beings, and delusions of medieval chivalry led to the deaths of many thousands, the destruction of property, and a bitterness that survives to this day.

      The stupidity of military tactics relying upon frontal assaults against artillery and lines of men standing so close together that enemy fire was sure to kill someone was borrowed from Europe where the Nobility comprised the officer class and commoners were considered cannon fodder waisted countless lives.

      The lesson to be learned from the Civil War is to communicate honestly with our neighbors and to try to find common purpose and build upon that. Today our country is divided into two basic cultural and political cultures. Some here advocate armed “rebellion” against a government they perceive to be tyrannical. This is insanity. To kill one’s neighbors over a political squabble can only lead to countless more deaths and destruction. Circumstances change, cultures evolve (yes, creationists, even cultures evolve), and what seemed so important once becomes a quaint sideline in history.

      Let’s chill out and stop hating and dedicate our energy to positive endeavors that can restore our country to the greatness is has demonstrated. That greatness can best best achieved by working together rather than tearing each other down.

      • dan

        since you appear to appreciate tactics…would you acknowelage that an under-weigh flotilla to support the barricade/control of Charleston Harbor by Ft.Sumpter necessitated the removal of the garrison (attempted
        peacefully by the town fathers) …provcation/first-shot is a matter
        of perspective and unverifiable in most objective courts.

        With the invention of the cotton-gin and advances in farming techniques and machinery,slavery was fast becoming uneconomically feasible for the
        south just as it had in the industrial north which had already converted to wage-slavery.

      • Dave R.

        Not quite correct. Although invention of the cotton gin was motivated in part by a desire to reduce or eliminate the economic need for slave labor, it had the unintended opposite effect. Because the cotton gin made it possible to clean much more cotton in a given time with far less labor, it resulted in encouraging growth of more cotton and thus need of more labor in the fields.

      • LES

        The South was so destroyed there were no jobs for blacks. So they had to go north where they simply became slaves again. The North did not want them up there and they should have thought about that before they went to war instead of trying a peaceful solution first.
        After the Union army destroyed the south they went west and did the same thing to the Indians who actually owned the land first.
        The Civil War destroyed States Rights and we are paying for it today.

      • independant thinker

        At the time South Carolina left the union Fort Sumpter was not completed and unoccupied. A union General (Anderson I believe) moved his troops from a mainland fort to the island of Fort Sumpter. As someone else stated they were given many chances to leave but General Anderson refused.

      • Terri

        The South fired when they were invaded by damned Yankees & they had every right to do so!

      • DaveH

        A good first step, Dick, would be for you and the other Big Government lovers to get your hands out of our pockets. It takes two to get along.

      • Dick Gazinia

        you would benefit from a chilled suppository.

      • CW Farms

        The South fired at Fort Sumter, only after the US committed 2 acts of war against her. They had a treaty with Buchanan and Anderson and were feeding Anderson’s men at Fort Moultrie. The South had men in Washington at the time to purchase the property, and to pay the South’s portion of the national debt. Eleven such forts had already been turned over to the South. The Treaty was specific, that no reinforcements were to be made, and that they were to stay right where they were. The first act of war was for Anderson to abandon Ft. Moultrie and to occupy Ft. Sumter. This was a deliberate act of war. The 2nd act of war was when Lincoln sent 12 Military vessels as an escort to a cargo ship to re enforce Ft Sumter with a year’s supplies and 200 more men. The South had no choice as Charleston Harbor provided 80% of the movement of goods for South Carolina, but to defend herself after being provoked to. No one was killed and Anderson surrendered. The 12 naval ships remained just out of reach, and did not help Ft. Sumter during the battle.

        Also the North had slaves even after the war, Sherman and Grant were slave owners, 7 northern states had slaves, and many of the people fighting in the North were slaveowners, just as the vast majority of the Confederates did not own a slave.

        Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, Missouri, Kentucky, New Hampshire, and West Virginia held their slaves until the passage of the 3rd 13th amendment.

        Ohio and Illinois passed the 2nd 13th amendment stating that slavery could continue forever without interference from the government.

        The families of the people who had the Bank of England helped Lincoln finance the war, and for the 1st time, the US had a large national debt.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Gil Zealey,

      Most Southerners were too busy just trying to survive reconstruction and save their own lives and what little property they had left to worry about helping “the newly freed people” in the aftermath of the Civil War. You need to study a little more closely how four years of war and the predations of Northern armies devastated the economic condition of the South and put great hardships on the citizens and how the policies of reconstruction enriched the Northern banksters, politicians, carpetbaggers and scalawags who stole the property and livelihoods of Southerners and disenfranchised them.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • Granny Mae

        Bob Livingston,

        You are so right. It only takes some common sense to realize that trying to come back after a war any where, takes years and life is very difficult for a very long time ! I believe there were recovery difficulties on both sides. Northern farmers lost young family members that were depended on to help work the land and make a living and when they were killed the family suffered greatly. War is hell on everyone involved ! I just wish there were a way to insure that we got the truth of history from now on, but something tells me it is going to be more of the same old same old !

      • Granny Mae

        Another thing is I wonder if we had, had the communications back then that we have today if that war would have been what it was? I think a lot of people in the north got bad info. that stirred them into joining the army for patriotic reasons that if they had, info. that was up to the minute things might have been very different all the way around. Just another case of WHAT IF ?

      • libertytrain

        What if’s can’t be answered can they? Picture a lot of our kids today holding their cells, texting away, everywhere – stores, cars, schools – I don’t think these kids would be capable of enduring anything that those young folks had to endure. So the war probably wouldn’t have happened, not if it depended on folks doing much personal suffering.

      • Average Joe

        Granny Mae,

        “I just wish there were a way to insure that we got the truth of history from now on, but something tells me it is going to be more of the same old same old !”

        Just as “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”,…History is in the hands of the writer…However, truth is always in the hands of those who truly seek it….by whatever means nessesary.

      • independant thinker

        “the policies of reconstruction enriched the Northern banksters, politicians, carpetbaggers and scalawags who stole the property and livelihoods of Southerners and disenfranchised them.”

        And this was the origins of the KKK it was not originaly an anti-black orginazation but unfortunately became one especialy in modern times.

    • Jack Bates

      I think somewhere along the line you have been fed the liberal kool aid, Many freed slaves did not leave the plantations and farms of the old home place, but continued, many as share croppers and hands of some pretty scarce resources during the reconstruction period and were still mostly respectful to their former masters and I say this not to paternalize any one but in my own family, they were mostly trying to help those blacks that were around during hard times, by sharing whatever meager resoursces that were available.

    • Limestone Freedom

      To Gil: “This is true of the entire Southern white culture to which I was exposed while growing up.”

      Just as with any subject, you cannot lump everyone into one group. My own ancestors had slaves in the early 1800′s. Even though they were well taken care of, the family had decided before 1860 that it was not right, and told the slaves they were free to go or if they stayed would be paid a wage in addition to their housing and food. Most all stayed. There were a lot of families that did the same or similar things is TN and MS where my folks lived.

      Bottom line to me… the right of secession has always been just that, and should still be today. Lincoln was the first big power grabbing president, even though I think he truly had good intentions.

      • JJM

        While growing up in the ‘Show Me’ state I read extensively about the war and believed that Lincoln, Grant, etc were very wrong.
        As a Libertarian, my opinion has not changed and in fact is stronger. I recognize the unconstitutional power-grab, violation of ‘contract’ with the states and total disregard for States Rights.
        I am glad that the US did not fall apart but also recognize that the ‘Big Government’ that exists today is a threat for Civil War II. So yes, we are being forced to keep the powder dry, just in case.

      • D.L.O.

        There is a truism that is oft misquoted as a cliche’. If EVERY generation were inculcated with this truism we would all live in greater freedom. We must all remember:

        The road to hell (slavery) is paved with good intentions.

    • Ted Crawford

      While what you say Gil seems true , it ignores other issues within the North itself! Opon issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation, Free Blacks and escaped slaves in the north were beaten, shot hung and otherwise injured and killed by northerners concerned that they might lose their jobs to these “freed” slaves!
      Slavery is clearly a heinious institution, however given that it was at the time “legal”, its desolution could have, and should have been handled in a much different manner! That being said I do believe that Lincoln acted as he believed to be correct!

      • JIBBS

        It’s funny how we are always looking back and saying that this and that, should have been done or handled in a different way. If that is the case, the Chicago Bears should have won the Superbowl, all I’m saying is, why do we always say these things and wish it had been handled in some other way or fashion? All humans have many faults, myself included.
        And yes Chip, the powder is dry !

      • independant thinker

        It’s called “arm chair quarterbacking” or “hindsight is 20/20″. If we learn from the disection and evaluation of the past and the “should have-could have-would have” then there is nothing wrong with it.

      • Vicki

        If we do not study history we will not learn from it. If we do not learn from history we WILL repeat it.

        A smart man learns from his mistakes
        A wise man learns from the mistakes of others

        Both require remembering history.

      • Granny Mae

        Jibbs,

        Maybe it is because hind sight is always 20/20 !

      • http://radiodynamo.com/ Haggard

        If that is adequate, just doing what he thought was correct or best, I guess Hitler and all of his ilk, Obama, can be excused for their actions as well. I am sure they are just doing what they think is best also. The issue is, we have a law, the constitution that is supposed be followed, not just trampled on because we think it best. Why not just toss it and let those with the crisp lip and the weight of the club and gun run the show of those who think it is best? Or how about “I was just dong my job”. Those excuses do not fly.

    • ValDM

      Your premise doesn’t hold water. It was the Northern carpetbaggers who held the purse-strings during reconstruction. The white Southerner came home to farms destroyed/confiscated, wives and children dead and long buried, penniless and defeated. Pray tell, where would the Southerner have come up with the wherewithal to help anyone but himself? Look to the Northerners that had all the money and DID NOTHING.

      • Granny Mae

        ValDM,

        Where in the cat hair did you ever get the idea that northerner’s had all the money? My family was in the north and there were none of them that had money! They lost family members too and their farms also suffered greatly. Wives lost husbands and mothers lost sons and fathers lost sons and helpers for their land ! People were poor and had to get by on what ever they could , there were some that caught the rats in the barns and cooked them to eat. There was northern property destroyed too. The south was not the only suffer in that war and you can bet that when all was said and done there were fat cats in the south and the north that came out just fine while while the poor soul just trying to live and raise his family suffered greatly. So all you Johny rebs. just jump off that old poor me wagon, Ya’ll !

      • independant thinker

        Granny Mae, the money was with the northern industrialist and bankers who profited greatly from the war. The little man suffered greatly on both sides.

      • Granny Mae

        independant thinker,

        I’m sure the money was with the fat cat politicins and most of that was sitting in Washington and the original colony states. But when it came to the everyday joe, whether he came from the north or the south, he was the guy that lost everything and Washington never came to any of their aid. It is always thAat way, I just don’t like being lumped into the term northerners. There is a big difference between those in power and the rest of us, north or south, that simply want to make a living and have no problem getting along with anyone! People lost everything on both sides and there were some of my family members that were in that situation! You have to know that we all lost greatly and it is gone forever.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      On the topic of slavery, just so you know, in case you dont. Slavery was started by blacks in Africa, owning other blacks. And these blacks sold their fellow blacks, to white men to bring over here to work their fields. Many, and I mean the majority, had coming over here, better housing provisions, better meal provisions and better working conditions than they did before they came over. This bit of history gets hidden away somehow, and I dont fully understand it. I guess its all part of the demonization of the white man, that you seem to be leaning towards.

      • Granny Mae

        Beberoni,

        You are right and guess what? It is still going on in Africa today! Those people are still selling their own people into slavery and the majority of those being enslaved are women ! I have friends in several places in Africa and they all say that it is going on ! There is a lot of it going on in the Sudan by the Muslims selling the blacks into slavery to the places where they are mineing or drilling for oil etc. But any time you hear talk about the slavery of the past in the states it is always the bad white man that did it ! It was tribal wars that brought the captured people to the docks and sold them to the Dutch who in turn brought them to the New World because there was much work needing to be done.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Evil white bastards, owning business’s and giving people jobs to support their families. They should be jailed.

  • Keno

    Chip,
    Your article is factual, but it is also true that Lincoln became president in, as far as I know, a free and fair election. At the risk of oversimplifying, it seems that secession was a case of “I don’t like the way the game is going, so I’m going to take my ball and go home.”
    It would be like the people of Massachusetts saying in 1984, “we don’t like that Ronald Reagan, we’re leaving the U.S” — come to think of it, maybe that wouldn’t have been so bad!
    And while I agree that the war wasn’t “all about slavery,” I get a little miffed when people reduce it to a peripheral or non-issue. Don’t take my word for it, read the South Carolina secession ordinance.
    That said, I’m conflicted. I have nothing but respect for those who fought for the CSA, and I do agree that a lot of their ideas were a lot closer to the ideals of the Constitution than what we as a nation ended up with. But I’m still glad we didn’t end up a mishmosh of independent, balkanized republics.

    • Mike

      Keno:

      Actually, Mass didn’t much care for TJ or James and seriously proposed doing just that which you question. They boycotted while Washington burned. The South had every right to say this isn’t working and we’re going to try something different. 350,000 dead later they quit trying. Stubborn sumbetches weren’t they.

      Anybody watch the news today. Funny what people do when things are not working.

    • http://radiodynamo.com/ Haggard

      I may be totally out to lunch on this, but it seems to me read where some if not all of the original states had in their Constitution the right to secede from the union.

      As for the slaves, that issue is addressed in the Constitution. All they had to do was tax it out of existence.

      I think there are other underlying reasons for the war that few will ever know or acknowledge if and when it comes to light. I also think we are getting ripe for another shot at it if we do not get out heads out of the sand start doing what we should be doing.

      thanks for the great article Chip.

    • Dave

      I like many people drank the kool-aide of child-hood hero worship of Lincoln. If the man were alive today he would be wanted for crimes against humanity. Lincoln was put in office using Railroad funds and placed a taxes on the South to pay for the trans-continental railroad – so they withdrew from the union. Yes, it wasn’t about slavery, it was about kick-backs – simple fact. Lincoln swore before he took office that he would use the military to decimate any state that tried to succeed – and based on his actions he kept his promise – in that aspect he was indeed honest. When you look at th murderous nature of Lincoln you can understand why Booth shouted ‘death to all tyrants’ after shooting Lincoln. So its time for us to grow up in this nation and call a spade a spade. Lincoln turned brother against brother, abused federal power and laid waste to the South then used lies and subterfuge to cover his trail.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        It isnt so much we drank the Kool-Aid Dave, its that we were brought up to be respectful of our elders, and to listen and learn in school, much unlike today. However, how were we ever to know, that the schools were lying to us, pushing their lying agenda all the way back then. And it is much, much worse now. The liberal think tank is running it into the ground, and instead of teaching, they are indoctrinating our youth, and without our youth, we are going to be in trouble.

      • Granny Mae

        Beberoni,

        It is going to be interresting to see what the history books say about Obama! Do you think they will ever tell about his citizenship being in question? Maybe they will someday tell how he never really did have a college education from the colleges he claimed he did, because there is no record of it and there is no-one that even remembers him being in class with them. Humm. Now that is strange !

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Im sure that towns will name bridges after him, and he will be protrayed as a great leader of the black nation and an inspiration to all black people. What a crock. He is a black eye to them, nothing more than a head peace of the democratic party who blindly does what they tell him to do, a puppet, at best.

    • Jimmy Joe

      Keno,Adolph hitler was elected,in free,and fair elections.Are you sure you want to go there.The people in their desperation of seeking a master to lead them around by the nose,dividing them in groups,based,on their beliefs,gender,and culture.with empty promises.Did so through socialism.The same as,Mao se tung,Iranian mullahs,Saddam hussein,Hugo chavez,fidel castro.Hezbollah,and hamas,etc.The same happened in europe,and america.Now promoting,a new world order,and social justice.(SOCIALISM)And divide,and conquer tactics to again own people.Their minds,bodies,lives,property,loved one’s,and freedom.Involuntary servitude/Slavery/socialism.And it was free,and fair elections,and lazy,uninformed despots.That was shouting”yes we can,and hope,and change”Bowing at the alter to yet another dictator.Barack Insane Obama.And he,and his underlings,and false prophets,like george soro’s,and the clintons that is working along side.These same radical mullahs to promote socialism,and divide,and conquer tactics as the answer in egypt,and throughout the middle east.As islam,nazi’s,and communist were in cahoots with each other under hitler.Until hitler decided he didn’t need to share power with the soviets,and threw them under the bus.Socialist marxist communist,and islam are repeating history as we speak.”Under the guise of A new world order”Throwing america,and our allies under the bus.People have a desperate addiction,that will always destroy them in the end.They vote for their leaders like the clintons,and obama’s,for the same reason,they love going on the oprah winfrey show.They worship people who tell them what they want to hear,Promote vanity,Give justification for their addictions,obsessions,glutony,selfish,and immoral characters.And supply them with free hand-outs,and tell them they are smarter,and more special,than everyone else.

    • DaveH

      So, Keno, are you saying that when one party breaks a contract, the others involved should just suck it up and continue?

  • Nancy

    I have happily unsubscribed!

    If want trash like this to read, I’d sign up with NYT, alphanbet networks or Mother Earth.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Nancy,

      Sorry to see you go, but I understand that the truth is often tough to swallow and that it’s easier to just run away from it than examine for yourself as to whether what you have heard all your life–conventional wisdom–is, in fact, flawed. Buy you are wrong about where else you might get this information. The New York Times, alphabet networks and other liberal publications worship at the alter of Lincoln–he was for a powerful centralized government, after all–and Lincoln apologists pervade our public education system, our higher education system and mainstream “historians.”

      We can never really learn anything if we are unwilling to have our beliefs challenged. And we can never learn how to defend our arguments if we automatically dismiss counter arguments as trash. Calling something trash is not a successful debating tactic–though it is often employed by those unable to defend their own beliefs.

      I wish you all the best,
      Bob

      • ceberw

        You act as if this is all some big secret the mainstream historians have been hiding. I studied history at a public university (the University of Akron) about three decades ago. There was nothing in your article that I did not already know. Lincoln was human, and therefore flawed. But, unlike your propaganda piece implies, he also had many virtues.

      • Granny Mae

        ceberw,

        So you got all this information in college huh? Well lucky you! Hate to say this but the majority of the people in this country didn’t get to go to college. If the truth wasn’t in our history books in junior high and high school we were left in the dark. This is the first time I have had the opportunity to hear any of this. Many would say well you could have looked it up on the internet but I say to them, if you have no knowledge of there being a discrepency in information , why would you even bother to examine the history ! I was lead to believe that Lincoln was a great man and perhaps he was , but he had thoughts and agendas that were never brought out in history class and they should have been. This kind of information should not be privey only to the gollege educated, this should be everyday knowledge for everyday people.

      • independant thinker

        How true Granny how true. There is a world of difference in what is taught in college and what is taught in high school and below. Until I got to college I found history to be rather steril and boring. In college we started getting some of the “jucey tidbits” of history that made it much more interesting and made it history instead of just “such and such happened on this date”.

      • libertytrain

        Not in my high school. We had intelligent, thought-provoking women teaching us our history. Loved the nuns. Always made us think.

      • DaveH

        Libertytrain,
        I also attended Catholic school, 1st-9th, and learned more in the ninth grade than I did in any subsequent year in a public high school.

      • Granny Mae

        Oh how I wish I could have gone to Catholic school. I begged my mom but it never materialized. It was public school all the way for me ! And get this, there was a big difference in the schools in the city and in the county! If you switched because of a move you could spend half the semester trying to catch up! None of them ever taught the same thing so you couldn’t just slide from one to the other ! Our schools could use a lot of fixing !

      • DaveH

        The only way to achieve that, Granny, is to give the parents School Choice. Otherwise the bureaucrats have no reason to strive to excell.

      • DaveH

        Granny,
        Here is how the bureaucracy handles parents who want a better education for their children:
        http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654

        Can you imagine how much of our money they wasted to prosecute this woman? Unbelievable.

      • libertytrain

        Well Dave, we were fortunate. And Granny, while I have heard a few “horror” stories, that I’ve come to believe were more exaggerations than anything else, my nuns were incredible women. I’m sorry you missed the opportunity but it sure seems you are one bright lady so I think you did just fine.

      • Bob

        Bob Livingston,

        I’m not leaving, even though this site, censored one of my email addresses. This site, shows the true abhorrent ideology, of extreme Republicans, and Libertarians—which I admit—the exact opposite can be found on extreme left sites.

        I’m not leaving, this site is just too amusing!

        Moreover, Chip Wood, who, or what, are keeping some powder dry for?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Evidently to protect us all from idiots like you that have no clue. Thats why I am keeping mine dry. Wow. Scary thought people like you running around, that dont want people to be allowed to express their opinion if it is different than yours. I think in most places, that is called a communist.

      • Marten

        good one Beberoni…..way to go….

      • libertytrain

        Perhaps the automatic spamming filters on the site read you as spam. That does happen to the best of us if we post too much at any one time. Has nothing to do with human beings. But if you need to feel that you were special and singled out. Go for it.

      • Al Sieber

        Bob, “keep some power dry”, means many things, figure it out.

      • DaveH

        Bob,
        “abhorrent ideology …. of Libertarians”? How about you name me some?

      • DaveH

        Big Government lovers on both sides of the political spectrum fear Libertarian philosophy for a very good reason. We would shrink Government dramatically. Anybody feeding at the trough, whether directly or indirectly, does not want smaller government.
        Read this and learn:
        http://szatyor2693.wordpress.com/

      • DaveH

        Go here for more:
        http://libertarianparty.org/

      • JUKEBOX

        You may find out the answer to your question when it’s too late to save yourself from the liberals.

      • Jimmy Joe

        Might doesn’t make right;The Pen is mightier than the sword;Everyone is right in his own eyes.Just seek the truth,and the truth shall set you free.Bottom line is this.Anyone who does nothing.When people are being murdered,raped,tortured,and terrorized.yesterday,today,or,tommorro.here,or abroad,have no morals,or humanity for anyone but themselves.Our greatest failures is being repeated right now in egypt.Freedom is an inheirant right for all human beings.But those we try to deliver must want,and expect the same.And be educated what true liberty,and independence requires.America abandoned that principal no 200 yeas ago.But 100 years ago beginning with social security,to Affirmative action,to multi-culturalism.Which promotes,and subsidizes seperatism,and segregation.pitting,and dividing groups against each other.”A nation divided from itself cannot stand”Abe lincoln,understood what happens when we don’t assimilate all who seek to live here.Though abe lincoln may have done habeous corpus.It had to be done.Those with the most blood on their hands.Are those who promote,or refuse to do anything about social liberal issues in this country.That are seperatist,and segregationist.Who believe they are above god,reproach,law,and humanity.Which are about two thirds of america today.Bye bye ms.american pie.If we don’t learn from the past we are condemned to repeat it;But we are in the hear,and now.That is where our focus should be.So anyone who breaks the law,regardless your opinion of it.Until that law is changed.Give to caesar what is caesar.And to god what is gods.Unfortunetely every problem we have today.Is directly related to social liberal programs.And those on all sides.don’t,and won’t deal with these truths that are self-evident.Its facing reality,and finding the truth.It’s about one’s character stupid;And as the character goes so goes the nation.The truth,and the facts are out there.Each of us has the duty to seek just that.even if it doesn’t tell us what we want to hear.Do this,and that will set you free.Not comment lines,blogs,or their political,and ideaological guru’s.Jimmy Joe”The Liarfryer”

      • Biff

        Bob Livingston sez: “…I understand that the truth is often tough to swallow and that it’s easier to just run away from it than examine for yourself as to whether what you have heard all your life–conventional wisdom–is, in fact, flawed..”
        What I Sez: What if you replaced –conventional wisdom- with the Bible?
        Bob Livingston sez: “We can never really learn anything if we are unwilling to have our beliefs challenged. And we can never learn how to defend our arguments if we automatically dismiss counter arguments as trash. Calling something trash is not a successful debating tactic–though it is often employed by those unable to defend their own beliefs.”
        What I Sez: Remember Mr. Livingston’s second quote when you respond.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        That is one thing sir, that I never will allow to be challenged, my belief in Jesus Christ. Just as when I drive a car, and the light turns green, it means go, and everyone knows green means go. Jesus Christ has called me, came to me, revealed Himself to me, and that is not up for debate, from anyone. And its not conventional wisdom, its more like a cosmic revealing, from the Lord to me, and to all that He has called who have accepted Him into their lives. But all that man says and man does, we should challenge, and offer different opinions, and find out what is right. But the One that made me, is always right, and there is no challenging that. My arms are not long enough to box with Him. If someone else wants to, thats between them and Him. But Im not going to question it.

      • Jimmy Joe

        Ditto Beberoni;All else is dribble if not biblically principled.Too many agnostics,and so-called athiest.That buy into ol’nazi,and ol’marxist proffesor evolution theory.That their is no god.Its ok;for now though,God doesn’t believe agnostics,and athiest exist either.And as they say their are no athiest in fox holes.When pure evil enters their backyard.They won’t be talking about what abe lincoln did wrong.Only why isn’t there an abe lincoln here to save my ungrateful hiney;

      • Granny Mae

        Beberoni,

        I agree with you and you did a wonderful job of distinguishing between the two. One is up for discussion and the other is not ! All people should know the difference !

      • Dave

        Bob,
        It’s one thing to challenge beliefs and another to say write them off completely for your own version. I think i9t’s ironic that people like you want to adhere to strict interpretations of old writings except when it doesn’t serve you. Have your opinion but honor others and stop taking advantage of people.

    • greg

      Happily ignorant, Nancy. Do some studying, and use your logic and you will see Chip is correct in his history lesson.

    • dan

      Nancy…the earth is not your mother….and the public education/indoctrination system that you were brainwashed in is at
      fault,not you.Please check out the facts with objective /critical-
      thinking ….and ,good luck.

      • Biff

        Nancy… Eve is not your great-great grandmother and the religion/indoctrination system that you were brainwashed at is the problem, not you. Please learn to check out the facts with objective /critical-thinking and good luck.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        I disagree with Nancy’s statement, but yes, Eve is her far distant relative. And yours also. Walk in darkness if you like, that is your opinion and your entitled to that, but you dont need to insist that the rest of us arent allowed to understand that there is a God that created all of us, especially after He has already revealed Himself to me, and there is no doubt to me of His existance. I have had my eyes and ears opened, and even though Im still just a stupid flawed human being that messes up quite often, I do know who I am, what I am, and where I came from and where Im going, and if one doesnt know that, its time to do some searching.

    • JIBBS

      Nancy, to each his own I believe. But you sound as if things can only be a “one way street” and the street is yours. Well, I feel very sorry for you. Seems like you only want to hear what you like, but the world doe’s not revolve around you. There are two side’s to every coin, and each is entitled to his thoughts and blieve’s, that is what makes us a great country. Maybe you should try voicing your thoughts on a street corner in some third world conutry and demand that it be “your way”, I bet you would long for the freedoms we have in the USA.
      Thank you and good luck

    • Warlord X

      Nancy, good riddance. I’m sick of reading the ignorant, idiotic opinions of people who relish their stupidity. The rest of you libercrats could follow; none of us who actually think will miss you, despite most of us appreciating interesting, factual counter-arguments.

      • Warlord X

        I’d like to add, for all of us who were educated in ‘government schools’ that you must read the very interesting and informative book entitled “LIES MY TEACHER TOLD ME”, by James W. Loewen. If it doesn’t surprise, shock, and piss you off, read it again. Then follow that up with his second book, ‘LIES ACROSS AMERICA”, which discusses the erroneous and misleading facts established on monuments and memorials across the United States. Good reading and God BLESS America.

        DE OPPRESSO LIBER

      • Carlucci

        You rock, Warlord X. I’m going to check into those books you recommend.
        They sound fascinating. Thanks.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        And it is getting worse and worse, as the liberals have taken the school systems to an all new low, and now they are even re-writing history books so that they can read the way they wish things would have happened. Its unbelievable what they are doing. Its also pathetic and sad. And some wonder why our school system is in such trouble. Pretty evident to me.

      • eddie47d

        I agree our public schools aren’t perfect but teachers are overwhelmed in all the information that has to be taught. In the “good old days” education was fairly cut and dryed. It wasn’t always a bad thing but alot of history was left out or distorted back then. I would say more so than today. It was all victory over the vanquished and certain cultures were better than others. The world has changed and books should reflect that.

      • Dan az

        Keep it up Eddie and some one might mistake you for a conservative!lol!

    • Carlucci

      Farewell, Nancy – !! Go live in your (at least for now) cozy little bubble, and believe all of the lies from Fedzilla and its lap dog poopaganda machine, the lame stream media.

      It is people like you who are a huge part of the problem in this country.

    • Average Joe

      Nancy,
      Sorry to see you go, a word of parting wisdom:

      I never learned from a man who agreed with me.
      Robert A. Heinlein

  • Nancy

    What a pity!

    Taking quotes out of context and heavily relying on re-written history doesn’t make lies true. Congrats on joining the left in hating Lincoln. He can’t defend himself. So slander and defame away. I in turn, will continue to respect him and stay with original source history that certainly doesn’t agree with you!

    • Dick Gazinia

      Many people on the left admire Lincoln.

      • http://google.com mathilda

        You are so right,Dick Gazinia, Remember Obama kept putting Abraham Lincoln in his speeches when he was running for president. I do not think slavery was a good thing. There are all kinds of people out there that do bad.
        But that war was told to me that is was not about slavery at all. It was about taxes, control, and envy what someone else had. And he had no control over it. So, he did something about it, like Obama will do to us, if we don’t stop it. My great grandfather came to Texas at the end of the war from Missouri. He had a plantation that had 500 share croppers that lived on it. He shared a percentage on what they did, they even had thier own houses as long as they lived there. They liked being there. The Union Army came in and told them they had to leave that place. They told them that they were share croppers, and they had a right to be there. The soldiers took them all to a stockade in shackles, and they dug a hole and came back. The soldiers came back and sent them back again, they got loose and came back. My great grandfather told them that it was not good to come back. They told him that that was their home, and thier lively hood. The Union soldiers came back, lined all 500 men, women, children, and shot them all. Left them laying there. My greatgrandpa dug a trench and buried them. He burned the house, and all the buildings, had packed his wagon and left to go to Texas. That was what I was told, and my grandma did not lie, she was too mean and religous for that. She told me a lot of things that happened in that war. And it was not good. So, I believe that the war was for greed and slavery was just an excuse to take what the North wanted so bad, was control and money that they were not getting and control. It is happening again now, if we don’t watch out we will be doing it all over again.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        As I have examined the civil war, and read many, many books, not only about the war, but about the characters involved, Lincoln, Lee, Jackson, Lawton I believe, and many others, I have come to the out and out conclusion, having seen what this nation has turned in to, what with all its political correctness, and bowing to enemies, that we as a nation, would have been so much better off had the South prevailed. Much better off. It is even reflective today in the people in these areas. I go down to Townsend Tennesee, or Lexington Kentucky, and the people are so nice, always willing to help a person out. Yet you go up to New York, Jersey, Philadelphia Pennsylvania, and it seems to be all about people wanting to get something from you, and people are just downright cold and unfriendly. But not in the south. Those folks are kind and have so much self respect, it manifests itself into respect for others. I have found in my life, that 90 percent or more of people who are disrespectful of people, have no respect for themselves to start with. Yes, I fully believe, had the South won, this country would be standing tall and proud, as a bastian of light and freedom to the world, instead of hearing the sucking sound of nations that hate us, being given millions and billions of our dollars, for one stupid reason or another. This is the work of the greedy lawyers of the north. No doubt.

      • Void1972

        Beberoni,
        I have to agree with you, the southerner is so polite and here in the North, most would not give you the time of day. Whites are very respectful of Blacks, and Blacks very respectful of whites. Only those Blacks who move to the South from the North have attitudes.
        If the South was able to mend the slavery issue on it’s own, and they would have, our nation would be a much better place.
        The brilliant elected idiots and the corrupt bankers that created this entitlement system that has bankrupted America are the same people that wrote the history books. Slavery is a horrible human fault, but the slavery that the entitlement system promotes is even more horrifying.
        As humans, we have a limited time to be the best we can be, create something of ourselves, live life to it’s fullest. These poor folk living on our taxes, and contributing nothing to themselves or thier world is a horrible form of slavery that they cannot escape.
        This is what our leaders have created.

      • Vigilant

        Void 1972 says, “If the South was able to mend the slavery issue on it’s own, and they would have, our nation would be a much better place.”

        You’re as full of it as a Christmas Turkey! For a great champion of the South, why don’t you take the time to read the Constitution of the CSA? You do that, and then come back and we’ll talk about how the CSA advocated extension of slavery into all new territories and states, and how slaves were officially recognized as “property” of their owners by that document.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        To Vigilant, your talking a long, long time ago. We are talking about the gradual time frame from then to now. Slavery would have ended no matter who won, and Void tells the truth. Southern blacks are kind and friendly , and I have never once been referred to as a cracker, honkey, or “what you want ’round here white boy”, as I have be referred to, to my face here in the north. Its pathetic. And maybe you havent paid attention, but there are quite a bit of black politicians holding office in the south, and not too many in the north. Gee, can you explain that? Guess we all know who the racists are now, dont we? Come on, go ahead and explain away, were waiting.

      • Vigilant

        Beberoni,

        I’m afraid your argument is faulty. The very simple reason, and you may wish to check it at http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_common_race.html is that there are many more blacks in the South than there are in the North (duh!). But then, mayge you haven’t paid attention. Your implication that the North is more racist because it elects fewer black politicians is ridiculous.

        You seem to conveniently forget that the most famous and powerful black politician in history, Barack Hussein Obama, was elected to office from Illinois. Perhaps you’d like to explain that away.

        Regarding Void’s assertion that slavery would have died a slow death anyway (and he’s right about that), you might want to read the Constitution of the CSA with regards to how they would have kept that evil institution alive considerably longer if they had won the war.

        And to say “it would have ended no matter who won,” the immediacy of the war and the 13th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution considerably foreshortened the life of that terrible and brutal practice. It would have been a poor substitute to say to a family of slaves in 1860, “just wait another 10 or 20 years and you’ll have your freedom.”

        Your reference to how blacks differ from the North and South is paternalistic and stereotypical. Are you implying that blacks in the South “know their place” better than their Northern cousins? Moreover, I was responding to Void’s comments relative to the time period for the death of slavery and nothing else. Modern black attitudes have nothing to do with the argument.

        Beberoni, I don’t know why you’ve taken this tack with me. I’ve always respected your postings and, to the best of my knowledge, have never taken such a sarcastic and confrontational approach to answering any of your comments. When you say, “I have found in my life, that 90 percent or more of people who are disrespectful of people, have no respect for themselves to start with,” you may want to introspect about that comment.

        To quote you, “Come on, go ahead and explain away, were waiting.”

      • Dave

        I’m sorry that you were told those stories. Some of things might have even happened but the each side spins things the way they want. YOu don’t think southern plantation owners wanted to keep the money they were making due to slave labor? That was for the money too. In every war each side makes themselves out to be the victim and in the right. Horrible things happen in war and I’m sure this was no exception. A lot of the atrocities happen because people weren’t as educated back then and stories were made up and changes like a game of telephone you played as a kid. That’s why we need to make sure we are better educated and not filled with propaganda for someone elses ends. That’s what Chip and Fox News are doing to you. They’re taking advantage of your grandfather’s legacy to distort things for their own good. Barack Obama is not perfect, no president was or ever will be. He does want what’s best for this country though. YO udon’t have to agree with everything he does but you shold treat him fairly and give him the benefit of the doubt. I’m not saying blind allegiance be cause no one deserves that. I’m just saying that we should expect the best out of our ELECTED officials and do our best to uphold this country and encourage it’s stability and diversity.

      • Granny Mae

        Dave

        Stability is one thing but when a person is of the marxest, socialist or communist belief, that is a far cry from what this country has ever been and from the examples of those beliefs, that we have to go by, that is not where this country wants to go. I don’t care how sweet he talks the things he says just don’t set good with me. He wants to change this country’s whole form of government and the end goal is to conform to a one world government. Now I ask you, how do you run a one world government? You have to take away most all the freedoms that we in this country enjoy. There will no longer be freedom of individual states to govern themselves and make decissions that are for their best interrest! This country will have to become all one state and then we will have to blend in with every other country in the world with no exceptions for the people living here . Decissions will have to be made for the collective good of all countries and not for the good of those living in a certain area ! It will be run like a giant corporation and the sad thing is eventually giant corporations begin to fall apart because they get too big. Those running the big corporations become the filthy rich and the rest of the little people become the slaves or pesants. There is never any hope to improve ones lot in life because your ot in life has been choosen for you by the government before you were born. Sorry Dave you can kiss up to Mr. Wonderful all you want but I see him in a different light and I don’t want anything to do with him or his ideologies ! That man scares the bewaddens out of me and the sooner he can be replaced with someone with American ideas the better !

      • Dan az

        In 1863, Lincoln instituted martial law and ordered that the States either conscribe troops and provide money in support of the North or be recognized as and enemy of the nation; this martial law Act of Congress is still in effect today—what it means is that the President has dictatorial authority to do anything that can be done by the government in accord with the Constitution of the United States of America. This martial law authority is still in effect to this day and this Act was the foundation of today’s Presidential Executive Orders.

        By 1868 the war was over and the government had a gigantic problem. Until that time Congressmen were equally, collectively and severably liable for any official acts they performed outside of their constitutional limitations. It was much like a General Partnership. In the wake of the war martial law was necessarily enforced in the South and carpetbaggers were sent down to ”help adjust property ownership problems” after the war. Many great atrocities were committed making the vulnerability to lawsuit unbearable. It was considered that, in the interest of better handling the business interests and needs of government, the government should form a corporation, because from the protection of such a corporation they could continue to do what they felt was necessary to reunite the Union. To accomplish this, under the Constitution’s allowance for Congress to pass (and enforce) any law within the 10 mile square of Washington, D.C., they passed The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 (Chapter 62, 16 Statutes at Large, 419).

      • Doc Franklin

        I must take strong issue with your belief that Obama wants what is best for this country. He is a Marxist ideologue with a history of suckling at Lenin’s breast almost from birth. He also is a Muslim beyond question. His “what’s best” for this country entails turning it into a socialist, Islamic theocracy. This man will author bankruptcy, oppression, tyranny and enslavement. His dream is to destroy this nation, and so far, he has done a great job of it. You need to take the blinders off.

      • Average Joe

        Dave,
        First of all, this discussion is about Lincoln and his effect on the nation…it is not about promoting or tearing down Obama….please stay on subject (and stop trying to promote your personal agenda).
        Second, you forget that each of us is an individual and that each of us see the universe from a uniquely singular view…our own.
        Rather than read the books mentioned in Chip’s article or research the material contained within….it is always easier to just jump up and down, scream, holler and just dismiss it all (that this can’t be true) with nothing to back up your opinion on the matter. Opinions are just that, “opinions” and nothing more… (with opinion facts don’t really matter….nor are opinions relevent to the truth of the subject).
        In the future, you might try actually reading the material presented to you…before you attempt tearing it down…not doing so shows your lack of credibility and complete inabilty to debate the issue….because you have no facts with which to debate with.

        Sometimes life reqires….Critical Thinking!

        It’s an indulgence to sit in a room and discuss your beliefs as if they were a juicy piece of gossip.
        Robert A. Heinlein

        No statement should be believed because it is made by an authority.
        Robert A. Heinlein

      • Matt Newell

        Of course he does — as long as he and his friends are in charge. Tyrants always work for the people’s good (as in taking it all).

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Your a liar. Obama does not in any shape or form do what is best for this country. First thing he did, was sign a bill to take our money and pay for abortions in third world countries. You find that good for America? Wow. 2nd thing he did, was expand welfare and food stamps. We have lazy no good for nothing bums that dont want to work, collecting food stamps, welfare, WIC, and other handouts, and yet they all seem to have money for booze, cigarettes and dope. And you want to expand that? Sorry, that is damning for America, to build generation after generation of people dependant on the government. Very damning to this country. Not in America’s best interests sir. Then, the guy takes our tax dollars, and buys lawyers, to defend terrorists caught trying to kill us in the war. Unbelievable and destestable, and and at the very least, un-American as can be. Then, he tells terrorist nations that we are not a Christian country anymore. Excuse me, but the muslim can speak for himself. And the moment this country dries up its Christian movement, were finished, and thats a fact. He has spent us into oblivion, rewarded bad behavior by certain business’s with billion dollar checks, and has escalated the unemployment rate since he arrived. These are all bad, anti American things. Oh yeah, and one more I almost forgot. His transparent administration, went behind closed doors, and rammed a health care packing down the throats of what is now up to over 70 percent of a population that didnt want it. When you force things on the American public that they dont want, that sir, is the very meaning of Anti-American behavior. So your either a liar, or just a poor mis-informed soul if you thing this guy has done good things for America. No sir, come again. Not even close.

      • Hank, MO

        Mathilda–
        I have read your comment several times and still have problems with it. Apparently, after 500 men, women and children were massacred by the Union army on your great grandfather’s plantation in MO, he burned the buildings and moved to TX. I would like to know where in MO that this happened. I have studied a good deal of history pertaining to that time and have never heard of such an incident in MO. Furthermore, from my understanding of it, sharecropping did not become a popular way of farming until after the Civil War when it became necessary because of the financial hardships resulting from that war and the recovery measures imposed upon the southern states afterward. Five hundred sharecroppers is a lot to be working on one plantation– must have been a mighty big plantation! Where was that located? Why would your great grandfather just simply walk away from such a large operation? Why not sell part of it and use the proceeds to hire workers to continue on a smaller scale? or all of it and become rich and retired? Digging a ditch large enough to hold 500 bodies must have been quite an enterprise in itself. You think he might have needed help doing that? How long did it take him to do that and what kept the bodies from decomposing in the meantime?

        I think your grandmother may have exaggerated a little bit (or maybe, a lot)! After thinking about these considerations, if you still want to stick with that story, I would like for you to post the exact location of that plantation where all those bodies are buried along with any other particulars about the incident. I would think the name of the army’s commander or at least the unit number, the approximate dates and exact location would be easily learned from various sources. I would like to investigate that incident if it, in fact, did occur.

      • JUKEBOX

        Yeah, and they are too stupid to realize that he was a Republican.

    • Conservative at Birth

      Unless you have read all of the books about Lincoln and the Civil War, you are ignorant. You may choose to ignore the dark side of Lincoln, at your own peril. I think Lincoln was one of the worst Presidents in our Hisotory, along with; Obama, Carter, L.B.J., F.D.R., Herbert Hoover, Woodrow Wilson, Theodore Roosevelt, and Andrew Jackson. So There!!! By the way I am what you might call a radical right wing Republican. Although, I consider myself a Libertarian.

      • Bruce D.

        Lincoln no doubt was a tyrant. No one did more to destroy the Republic than Lincoln by destroying the intent of the Constitution which was to limit the power of the Federal government over the States and the people and we have never recovered from that. The 10th Amendment clearly emphasizes the States and the people respectively were to have the power. Not the Federal government. The Federal government’s power was intended to be severely limited by the Constitution. Lincoln began the use of Executive Orders which circumvents Congress. He sent soldiers into both the north and the south to force States to rewrite their Constitutions to his liking. What was once a voluntary Union became a Union based on the force of military might and the threat of being killed.

      • Vicki

        Kind of like the Mafia. You can get in but you can’t get out.

      • smilee

        Bruce

        Amendment X

        The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

        COMMENT:

        This puts ONLY everything not assigned to the The US Congress or not defined as prohibited to the states as the rights of the states and does not allow the states to override these rights of the US Congress thus it is regarded as the supreme law unless specifically defined otherwise or ignored. So many in their rhetoric today redefine the Constitutional rights of the US congress and define the rights of the states as supreme. This misinterprets the US Constitution

        ___________

        To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

        The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

        COMMENTS:

        Lincoln was within his constitutional rights to suspend habeas corpus during the civil was (see above) and within in his rights to use the militia to suppress the insurrections by the confederates after they fired the first shot at Fort Sumter and stated this insurrection that later became a full fledged civil war. (see above) Lincoln did not violate the Constitution but fulfilled its requirements despite those her who choose to believe otherwise and choose to perpetuate this distortion of history.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Good points Smilee, I have to agree with you. And since I wasnt there, and I cant judge the mans heart, I dont know if what he did was a good thing or a bad thing. I mean I hate war and death, but in every war we have fought, it was a necessary thing to bring peace, and only by force has peace ever been attained, and its how this country was founded. I think had the South won, we would have been a better country, but then again, we never will know that now.

      • Jim Harrison

        The South did not invade the North before the war began. In fact, Jefferson Davis could have called for the invasion of unprotected Washington D.C. after the surprise Southern victory at Manasseh. But he mistakenly thought the Yankees probably learned their lesson. He wanted Southern independence, not a struggle for central power.

        As for Fort Sumter, they were warned. It was a military build-up in the sovereign state of South Carolina, which had already seceded from the union. They ignored the warning at their own peril. It took fire power to wake them up to that reality. They finally surrendered the fort with no casualties other than a man who fell from the wall.

        Even then, the war did not begin until after Virginia seceded, and the North invaded that sovereign state and suffered that humiliating defeat at Manasseh.

      • Bruce D.

        A lot of what you are saying makes sense but in those days jurisdiction and States Rights were very important. Lincoln overstepped his jurisdiction with the buildup of troops which was a violation of the Constitution and considered a threat by the South. By overstepping his jurisdiction and violating the Constitution with the buildup of troops he initiated the war. The Federal government only has jurisdiction in the States in Federal enclaves. Other than that they are there by invitation of the States only as Bush concluded in Hurricane Katrina. States Rights are now at issue again and it is looked on as a check against the abuse of Federal power which we see today.

      • vicki

        Smilee. Amendment 10 doesn’t say ANYTHING about states rights. States have powers. Amendment 9 talks about rights. The rights of the PEOPLE. People have rights and powers. Governments have only the powers the people choose to delegate to government. The People placed in the Constitution limits on what powers the people can delegate to the government. Thusly we have a Constitutionally limited Republic. Amendments 9 and 10 re-enforce this design detail. People have rights (9) and powers (10). States have only powers (10).

      • Dan az

        Civil War had recently ended and the country was still under Lincoln’s Conscription Act (Martial Law). Congress had at least three problems they could see no way to directly cure by following the laws of the land: they were out of funds, they had promised 40 acres of land to each slave that left the South to fight for the North and they had to reintegrate the south into the Union, which they could not do without controlling the appointment of the Southern States Congressional members. There were other problems but these three stand out from the rest. That is enough about the environment for the purposes of this review, however the more you study the historical events of this time the more obvious the relationships will become and the more proof you will amass to prove the facts of what actually happened.

      • Average Joe

        Article 1 – The Legislative Branch
        Section 8 – Powers of Congress

        The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

        To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

        To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

        To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

        To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

        To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

        To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

        To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

        To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

        To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

        To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

        To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

        To provide and maintain a Navy;

        To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

        To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

        To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

        To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

        To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

        These my friend, are the powers delegated to Congress….please take note of this line in Article 1 Section 8:

        To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

        (NOT EXEEDING 10 SQUARE MILES)…What this means is: The “United States” is only 10 square miles (not including “territories” “PURCHASED” by the “United States”)….everything else…is the “States” of a union… AKA The “United States of America”…..
        Two completely separate concepts….learn the difference.
        Before one may claim that they are this or that, they must know who and what they truly are.
        I am not a U.S. Citizen, I am a citizen of the State in which I was born and may take up domicile in any one of the 50 several states (so long as that particular State allows me to)…..I know who and what I am and who and what I am not…do you?

        You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don’t ever count on having both at once.
        Robert A. Heinlein

        I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
        Robert A. Heinlein

      • smilee

        Bruce D. says:
        February 11, 2011 at 7:42 pm

        NOT TRUE

        vicki says:
        February 11, 2011 at 8:36 pm

        Constitution says: Tenth Ammendment

        The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, or prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

        You say:

        “People have rights and powers. Governments have only the powers the people choose to delegate to government.”
        The Constitution defines the rights of the US Congress and the people can only change it by amending it and they have not as yet, so you are wrong your will does not supersede the Constitutions. People’s rights or the states are secondary if the constitution delegates it to Congress or prohibits it to the state. YOU ARE WRONG on this issue!!!

        • Average Joe says:
        February 11, 2011 at 11:07 pm

        GOD ARE YOU EVER CONFUSED!!!

        To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
        To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

        This applies to the land that the seat of the US government is located on and all other federal lands within any state and not to the states themselves. YOU WILL SPIN IT ANY WAY SO YOU CAN BELIEVE WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE IT TO BE RATHER THAN WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS!!!!

      • Dan az

        Smiley
        Im sorry but you need to research alittle more.This info that I’ll post will start you off but the site that I will leave you is where you need to start.
        Corp. USA
        Under The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 a private corporation named, ”The District of Columbia”, was formed. It trademarked the names ”THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT”, ”United States”, ”U.S.”, ”U.S.A.”, ”USA”, and ”America”. It should be noted that this corporation was not simply a reformation of the municipality as its Organic Act was chartered in 1808. Without amending that municipality’s charter, this 1871 Act marked the creation of a new private corporation known as, ”The District of Columbia” (hereinafter ”Corp. U.S.”) owned and operated by the actual government for the purpose of carrying out the business needs of the government under martial law. This was done under the constitutional authority for Congress to pass any law within the ten mile square of Washington, District of Columbia. In said, Act Corp. U.S. adopted their own constitution the (United States Constitution), which was identical to the national Constitution (Constitution of the United States of America) except that it was missing the national Constitution’s 13th Article of Amendment and the national Constitution’s 14th, 15th and 16th Articles of Amendment are respectively numbered 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments in their constitution.

        Corp. U.S. was not well received by the people so Congress revised the Act in 1874 and finalized it in 1878.

        Corp. U.S. began issuing bonds to cover the expenses of running government. By 1912 there was more bond debt due than there was money in the Treasury to pay and the debt was called.

        Seven very powerful families had been buying up the bonds and in 1912 they demanded their timely redemption. When Corp. U.S. couldn’t come up with the money due, its owner (the actual government) was obligated to pay. The Treasury of the United States of America did not have sufficient funds to cover the bonds either but the seven families accepted all of the assets of the nation’s Treasury along with all of the assets of Corp. U.S.’ Treasury as a settlement of the debt saving the nation from bankruptcy.

        By 1913 there was still no money for operating the government/corporation, and if Corp. U.S. didn’t do something the people would revolt against them, so Corp. U.S. went to those seven very powerful families and asked if they could borrow money from them.
        http://teamlaw.org/

      • Dan az

        Average Joe
        Good work keep up the good fight!

      • Vigilant

        Sorry, Dan, The Organic Act was nothing more than the incorporation of a unique district, identical to the incorporation of villages and cities throughout the US.

        Have you read the Act? I have, and it neither says nor implies anything other than a means of governing the District of Columbia. This canard has grown legs, thanks to the faulty and self-serving interpretation of the “Team Law” ambulance chasers.

        Concentrate on something important, not this drivel.

      • Dan az

        Vigilant
        I have read many times can you prove it wrong?show me a site that can!

      • Dan az

        It is sometimes thought that “the Constitution” consists only of the written document. This is not so. The title “The Constitution of the United States” was added after the document was adopted, but “constitution” meant the “basic legal order”, and the Constitution consists of both the written document and the common law at the time the document was adopted, which is here referred to as the Common Law in caps. Now, the written document does supersede the Common Law where they might be in conflict, but it does not replace it, and courts must refer to the Common Law for guidance where the written document is silent or ambiguous.

        In addition to the written document and the Common Law, the Constitution also includes Treaties, which, although they are valid only insofar as they are not in conflict with the written Constitution, are superior to both the Common Law and to State constitutions and laws, to the extent that those might be in conflict with the Treaties. Thus, some of the Treaties that have been adopted extend and clarify some of the rights, powers, and duties provided in the written Constitution. For example, that is how “federal ground” is extended to include coastal waters out to a certain distance from shore, and the grounds of U.S. embassies abroad, and how the rights of the people are amplified by the Charter of the United Nations and by various bilateral and multilateral Treaties that extend civil and commercial rights to U.S. citizens abroad.

      • smilee

        Dan az says:
        February 12, 2011 at 7:21 pm

        Your posts do not respond to mine WTF?? It is clear to thoise of us who understand the Constitution that you certainly do not!!

      • Dan az

        Hey smelly what exactly was your post besides saying every one is wrong or confused?I for the life of me cant find any thing that you said had any thing to do with anything other than insults and conjecture.So I ask for proof that you even know what your saying has any bearing on the subject at hand.Insults are not facts and until you figure that out I dont think anyone will bother with you any more, so show us what you disagree with and type something rather than cut and paste and insult.

      • Vigilant

        Dan AZ says, re the Organic Act, “I have read many times can you prove it wrong? show me a site that can!”

        I repeat, “it neither says nor implies anything other than a means of governing the District of Columbia.”

        Now Dan, I don’t need a site of bogus lawyers like Team Law to “explain” something that doesn’t exist. I challenge you to quote me ANYTHING in the Organic Act that either replaces the Constitution or provides for anything other than the governance of the District of Columbia.

        SHOW ME, and if you can, I’ll publicly apologize to you. Now you’ve got the challenge, what are you going to do about it?

        BTW, it may be of interest to the uninitiated that all the talk of NWO conspiracy by the Rothschilds, etc., was one of the bases for the NAZI anti-Semitic political theories.

      • Vigilant

        smilee, your take on the Constitution is entirely correct.

        Does it surpise anyone that those who don’t read the document are so willing to attribute such evil motives to one of the greatest presidents we’ve ever had?

        Keep up the good work, smilee; there are just a few of us here who have more than a basic understanding of the Constitution.

      • vicki

        Smilee says:
        “The Constitution defines the rights of the US Congress and the people can only change it by amending it and they have not as yet, so you are wrong your will does not supersede the Constitutions. People’s rights or the states are secondary if the constitution delegates it to Congress or prohibits it to the state. YOU ARE WRONG on this issue!!! ”

        Other than the obvious mis-use of a word (rights) I am mostly in agreement with your claim so it is unlikely that I am wrong unless you are also wrong.

        Let us look for a moment at the word right(s). I just re-read the US Constitution from end to end (minus amendments) and verified that the word “Right” appears exactly once. It appears in Article 1 Section 8 “To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; ” where the Right to exclusive use and marketing of their Writings and Discoveries for a LIMITED time is enforced by the POWER of government.

        Even section 8 does not grant or refer to any rights of congress. It says and I quote again “The Congress shall have Power To….”

        Now let us look at the amendments.

        1. “Congress shall make no law…. ” clearly a limitation on the POWER of Congress to make laws.
        “….the right of the people….”

        2. “…..the right of the people…..”
        3. The word “right” does not appear. The phrase “the consent of the Owner” does.
        4. “….The right of the people….”
        5. a bunch of specific limitations on what ANY level of government can do. The word “right” does not appear.
        6. “…the accused shall enjoy the right…”
        7. “In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved”
        This is the only amendment I could find where it is potentially ambigous as to whom or what gets the right. The right itself is “trial by jury”
        8. The word “right” does not appear.
        9. “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

        You will notice yet again that the object of the right(s) is PEOPLE not states or other government.

        10. The word does not appear. The word power does. And mentions that states have powers and that PEOPLE have powers and that the federal government gets to have powers. Nothing about rights being delegated to any form of government.

        11. The word does not appear.
        12. “…the right of choice shall devolve upon them…”

        The right to choose the president whenever the right of choice works down to them.
        13. a limitation on all governments and a mention of a power to Congress.
        14. a set of limitations on all governments and the word right appears with the object “to vote” and the subject of “male inhabitants of at least 21 years”
        15. “…The right of citizens of the United States to vote…”
        16. The word “right” does not appear. The word POWER does and that power is delegated to Congress.
        17. The word does not appear.
        18. The word does not appear and it was repealed anyway.
        19.”..The right of citizens of the United States to vote…”
        20. “…the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them. …”
        21. The word “right” does not appear.
        22. The word “right” does not appear.
        23. The word “right” does not appear.
        24. “…The right of citizens of the United States to vote…”
        26. “…The right of citizens of the United States….”
        27. The word “right” does not appear.

        And there you have it. The ONLY rights I found ANYWHERE in the entire Constitution that belonged to anyone other individuals, individually and or collectively was granted to the House of Representatives to choose a President and the Senate to choose a Vice President. And since it was granted by the constitution it is a privilege not a right.

        Governments have no rights. Only the powers we delegate to them. That would be the “consent of the governed” part of the Declaration of Independence.”

      • smilee

        vicki says:
        February 13, 2011 at 12:27 pm

        Your Funny and a ot of work on your point for proving nothing.

        You do not have to use the word rights to define them and Article 1, section eight does define them, some may call them limits but those not limited are delegated to the Congress and they then possess the power and the right to make laws within these limits and the 10th ammendment makes clear if the power, rights limits however you describe it belongs to Congress then it does not belong to the States or the people. Never the less the right to make laws within these limits does exist. The first amendment does not use the words separation of church and state but that is what it actually means and the SC has made that very clear as well.

      • Vicki

        Smilee I trust you realize you just declared state income tax to be unconstitutional. Mr Brown is going to be really annoyed with you.

      • Average Joe

        smilee,
        OK, we get it smilee…you are the only intelligent being in the Universe…you see all, you know all….a legend in your own mind.
        I am glad that you have convinced someone….even if it is only yourself. I frigured out long ago that it was a waste of my time responding to you. Regardless of any statements made by anyone…your mind is set (like concrete) and nothing is going to change it…so I figure…why bother…let him spout off….let him waste…his time….rather than wasting mine.
        I have my “truths”….you have yours….end of story….

        The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
        Robert A. Heinlein

      • vicki

        Average Joe writes to Smilee:
        “frigured out long ago that it was a waste of my time responding to you.”

        The reason those of us do respond to smilee is to protect others from the logic fallacies presented by smilee and other liberals. I have little doubt that I can not change smilees opinions but I CAN show others a new path. Who knows. Smilee might find one of the paths useful too.

      • Dan az

        I would guess not showing any proof would be easier for you and smelly than actually proving your point with facts,Isn’t that the way that all liberals work by not working just making statements for others to prove their point?
        1st: Martial Law is declared by President Lincoln on April 24th, 1863, with General Orders No. 100; under martial law authority, Congress and President Lincoln institute continuous martial law by ordering the states (people) either conscribe troops and or provide money in support of the North or be recognized as enemies of the nation; this martial law Act of Congress is still in effect today. This martial law authority gives the President (with or without Congress) the dictatorial authority to do anything that can be done by government in accord with the Constitution of the United States of America. This conscription act remains in effect to this very day and is the foundation of Presidential Executive Orders authority; it was magnified in 1917 with The Trading with the Enemy Act (Public Law 65-91, 65th Congress, Session I, Chapters 105, 106, October 6, 1917). and again in 1933 with the Emergency War Powers Act, which is ratified and enhanced almost every year to this date by Congress. Today these Acts address the people of the United States themselves as their enemy.

        2nd: The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 created a “municipal corporation” to govern the District of Columbia. Considering the fact that the municipal government itself was incorporated in 1808, an “Organic Act” (first Act) using the term “municipal corporation” in 1871 can only mean a private corporation owned by the municipality. Hereinafter we will call that private corporation, “Corp. U.S.” By consistent usage, Corp. U.S. trademarked the name, “United States Government” referring to themselves. The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 places Congress in control (like a corporate board) and gives the purpose of the act to form a governing body over the municipality; this allowed Congress to direct the business needs of the government under the existent martial law and provided them with corporate abilities they would not otherwise have. This was done under the constitutional authority for Congress to pass any law within the ten mile square of the District of Columbia. Follow this link to see the effect of the District of Columbia Act of 1871.

        3rd: In said Act, Corp. U.S. adopted their own constitution (United States Constitution), which was identical to the national Constitution (Constitution of the United States of America) except that it was missing the national constitution’s 13th Amendment and the national constitution’s 14th, 15th and 16th amendments are respectively numbered 13th, 14th and 15th amendments in the Corp. U.S. Constitution. At this point take special notice and remember this Corp. U.S. method of adopting their own Constitution, they will add to it in the same manner in 1913.

        4th: Corp. U.S. began to generate debts via bonds etc., which came due in 1912, but they could not pay their debts so the 7 families that bought up the bonds demanded payment and Corp. U.S. could not pay. Said families settled the debt for the payments of all of Corp. U.S.’ assets and for all of the assets of the Treasury of the United States of America.

        5th: As 1913 began, Corp. U.S. had no funds to carry out the necessary business needs of the government so they went to said families and asked if they could borrow some money. The families said no (Corp. U.S. had already demonstrated that they would not repay their debts in full). The families had foreseen this situation and had the year before finalized the creation of a private corporation of the name “Federal Reserve Bank”. Corp. U.S. formed a relationship with the Federal Reserve Bank whereby they could transact their business via note rather than with money. Notice that this relationship was one made between two private corporations and did not involve government; that is where most people error in understanding the Federal Reserve Bank system—again it has no government relation at all. The private contracts that set the whole system up even recognize that if anything therein proposed is found illegal or impossible to perform it is excluded from the agreements and the remaining elements remain in full force and effect.

        6th: Almost simultaneously with the last fact (also in 1913), Corp. U.S. adopts (as if ratified) their own 16th amendment. Tax protesters challenge the IRS tax collection system based on this fact, however when we remember that Corp. U.S. originally created their constitution by simply drafting it and adopting it; there is no difference between that adoption and this—such is the nature of corporate enactments—when the corporate board (Congress) tells the secretary to enter the amendment as ratified (even thought the States had not ratified it) the Se3cretary was instructed that the Representatives word alone was sufficient for ratification. You must also note, this amendment has nothing to do with our nation, with our people or with our national Constitution, which already had its own 16th amendment. The Supreme Court (in BRUSHABER v. UNION PACIFIC R. CO., 240 U.S. 1 (1916)) ruled the 16th amendment did nothing that was not already done other than to make plain and clear the right of the United States (Corp. U.S.) to tax corporations and government employees. We agree, considering that they were created under the authority of Corp. U.S.

        7th: Next (also 1913) Corp. U.S., through Congress, adopts (as if ratified) its 17th amendment. This amendment is not only not ratified, it is not constitutional; the nation’s Constitution forbids Congress from even discussing the matter of where Senators are elected, which is the subject matter of this amendment; therefore they cannot pass such and Act and then of their own volition, order it entered as ratified. According to the United States Supreme Court, for Congress to propose such an amendment they would first have to pass an amendment that gave them the authority to discuss the matter.

        8th: Accordingly, in 1914, the Freshman class and all Senators that successfully ran for reelection in 1913 by popular vote were seated in Corp. U.S. Senate capacity only; their respective seats from their States remained vacant because neither the State Senates nor the State Governors appointed new Senators to replace them as is still required by the national Constitution for placement of a national Senator.

        9th: In 1916, President Wilson is reelected by the Electoral College but their election is required to be confirmed by the constitutionally set Senate; where the new Corp. U.S. only Senators were allowed to participate in the Electoral College vote confirmation the only authority that could possibly have been used for electoral confirmation was corporate only. Therefore, President Wilson was not confirmed into office for his second term as President of the United States of America and was only seated in the Corp. U.S. Presidential capacity. Therefore the original jurisdiction government’s seats were vacated because the people didn’t seat any original jurisdiction government officers. It is important to note here that President Wilson retained his capacity as Commander in Chief of the military. Many people wonder about this fact imagining that such a capacity is bound to the President of the nation; however, When John Adams was President he assigned George Washington to the capacity of Commander in Chief of the military in preparation for an impending war with France. During this period, Mr. Adams became quite concerned because Mr. Washington became quite ill and passed on his acting military authority through his lead General Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Adams was concerned that if war did break out Mr. Hamilton would use that authority to create a military dictatorship of the nation. Mr. Adams averted the war through diplomacy and the title of Commander in Chief was returned to him.
        (See: John Adams, by David McCullough, this book covers Mr. Adams concerns over this matter quite well. Mr. Adams was a fascinating man.)

        10th: In 1917, Corp. U.S. enters W.W. I and passes their Trading with the Enemies Act.

        11th: In 1933, Corp. U.S. is bankrupt, they force a banking holiday to exchange money backed Federal Reserve Notes with “legal tender” Federal Reserve Notes the Trading with the Enemies Act is adjusted to recognize the people of the United States as enemies of Corp. U.S.

      • Dan az

        For your last and final statement.
        Since W.W.II those “fruits” have increasingly become evident of a dictatorial government controlled business, which is the very definition of Fascism. Could we have possibly won the battle (W.W.II) but lost the war? History shows, in 1944, under political pressure to turn the tides of the war, the corporation known as the, “United States Government” was quitclaimed to the International Monetary Fund (hereinafter “IMF”) in the Bretton Woods Agreement. When our soldiers came home victorious, they did not recognize ‘the New Deal’ government with its authoritarian controls as Fascism because when they fought Fascism in Europe, it had the face of soldiers with uniforms, airplanes, tanks, grenades and guns. The patriotic environment of victory made the sacrifices to achieve it seem like the ‘The New Deal’ was necessary. After all, government control provided jobs and a new way of living for their families, though the silent enemy (IMF) had replaced our Constitutional Republic’s limitations with the authoritarian controls of Fascism. The people allowed it because they knew no better and because (in a time of need) it provided them the idea of job security with future Social Security support (see: Myth 22 on our Patriot Mythology page).

        It used to be, a father could provide for his family from his own labor and the mother could stay home and nurture the growing family. Back then, Myth 22 was not in place; and, only 30% to 40% of the population ever needed employment. Mothers could stay home nurturing and taking care of their family’s needs—they had time to prepare fresh nutritious food for mealtime, when the family was always home together. Children went to school and didn’t have to work outside of the home to have sufficient funds to buy their clothes, schoolbooks, etc. And, most importantly, government had no right to control the people; rather, the people and the law of the Republic controlled the government.

        Today, politicians focus on the approach of 100% employment as if it was a good thing. What it really means, to most families, is everyone in the home that can work for wages outside of the home must do so to be able to afford the necessities of education and family life. Ironically, such employment separates families and has the tendency to destroy family life in many ways. The result of this trend is increased divorce and destruction of the family unit and value based parental examples.

        Team Law provides answers and solutions through self-education. You can learn how to assert your rights and lawfully: take control of government, secure your domain with Land Patents, and legally protect your family. Learn the law and the history of this nation – The United States of America; and, we can show you how we (the people) can take our nation back legally, lawfully and peacefully, which will not happen by people ignorantly and foolishly jumping on bandwagons filled with Patriot Mythology, silver bullets and frustration.

        We do this work as an elemental obligation to preserve our Liberty, honor our covenants with our Creator and to provide our families with freedom. Accordingly, we raise this Title of Liberty, as a symbol of our dedication:

      • Vigilant

        Your long and boring regurgitation of the Team Law talking points means nothing.

        I note very forcefully that you did not answer my challenge. For the last time, give me ANY direct quotation from the Organic Act that does anything more than establish a MUNICIPAL corporation identical in nature to the thousands of cities and villages in the USA.

        You will receive an abject apology from me if you can. I’m confident you won’t find anything of that nature. I question whether you have even read the Act.

      • Dan az

        vigelant
        The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 describes its venue as: “all that part of the territory of the United States included within the limits of the District of Columbia”. The District of Columbia was originally provided for in the Constitution for the United States of America (Sept. 17, 1787) at Article 1 Section 8, specifically in the last two clauses. Then, on July 16, 1790, in accord with the provisions of those clauses, the Territory was formed in the District of Columbia Act, wherein the “ten mile square” territory was permanently created and made the permanent location of the country’s government, that is to say, the “territory” includes the actual government. Under the Act Congress also made the President the civic leader of the local government in all matters in said Territory. Then on February 27, 1801, under the second District of Columbia Act, two counties were formed and their respective officers and district judges were appointed. Further, the established town governments of Alexandria, Georgetown and Washington were recognized as constituted and placed under the laws of the District, its judges, etc. The popular names for this “Charter Act” are the, “District of Columbia Organization Act” and the “District of Columbia Act ”, which Act the Supreme Court has recognized was the incorporation of the “municipality” known as the “District of Columbia”. Then on March 3, 1801 a Supplementary Act to that last Act, noted here, added the authority that the Marshals appointed by the respective District Court Judges collectively form a County Commission with the authority to appoint all officers as may be needed in similarity to the respective State officials in the states whence the counties Washington and Alexandria came, those being Maryland and Virginia, respectively.

      • Dan az

        vigilant
        this will be my last reply on the subject.
        Knowing the government of the District of Columbia was already “created into a government” and so formed into a municipal incorporation in 1801 under the District of Columbia Acts, we wonder, even with Congress’ constitutional authority to pass any law within the ten mile square of the District, how do you create, or incorporate, for the first time a municipal government that has already been in existence as a municipal corporation for over 60 years? The obvious answer is, “It’s impossible!” There is no way to pass an “Organic Act” when the Charter Act is already in place, because the two words (organic and charter) have the same meaning—The First Act. Even Congress cannot change history; though historians can make it appear to change by rewriting it for those unwilling to study the past from the records. The records speak for themselves only if we study them.

        When you consider the historical facts, the only meaning left for the terms given in the opening paragraph of the District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 (and that which follows) is, the “municipal corporation” that was created is a private corporation owned by the existent municipality. And the only government created in that Act was the same government any private corporation has within the operation of its own corporate construct. Thus, we call it Corp. U.S. We also note Congress reserved the right, granted them in the Constitution, to complete dictatorial authority over their Corp. U.S. construct, without regard for its internal operations or officers. Thus, Congress can use it within the ten mile square as they see fit to both govern the municipality as if it were the municipal government and to use it to do things the Constitution did not grant them the privilege of doing.

      • Vigilant

        Well, Dan, don’t think I didn’t catch on to what you were trying to do. You have put a lot of narrative together, of which NOT ONE WORD quotes anything in the Organic Act that challenges my assertion.

        Ergo, you receive no apology from me.

        May I offer that same challenge to anyone else on this site who believes the Organic Act somehow replaced the Constitution and that we are now governed as a corporation?

      • Carlucci

        Great article. My mom is from Mississippi and used to tell me while I was growing up that the school history books were wrong – Lincoln was a tyrant and a terrible president. The South thought he was just as bad as the war criminal Sherman.

        As for Andrew Jackson, he was not a bad president. He got rid of the central bank (what we now know as the Federal Reserve), and miraculously survived an assassination attempt. See for yourselves in this award winning documentary, “The Secret of Oz”

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIhDdST27g

      • Jim Harrison

        Another interesting note: I asked my grandson who was born and raised in Mississippi, “Who do you believe was the greatest president?” He replied, “I don’t know, Abraham Lincoln?” I said, “WHAT?!! You are supposed to say Jefferson Davis!” He answered, “I don’t even know who that is.” This confirms Chip Wood’s assertion that the victors write the history books. But they can only hold out for so long. The truth about everything will ultimately prevail.

      • Carlucci

        That’s terrible – !! Jefferson Davis was awesome. Has anyone on this blog read that fantastic book “Dirty Crimes”? It’s about the manhunt for Jefferson Davis after the Lincoln assassination. The dummies thought he had something to do with it.

      • JUKEBOX

        In Alabama, we have celebrated Jefferson Davis’ Birthday for over a hundred years, before Congress gave it over to MLK birthday.

      • Vigilant

        Looks like you folks from the South hold the record for being the longest poor losers in history. You think a man who advocated slavery was great? Get real!

      • Granny Mae

        Carlucci,

        I’m sure that the native Americans would take issue with your thoughts that Andrew Jackson was a great president. I do also. Any president that sets out to kill off a group of it’s country’s citizens is no better than Marx in my opinion. He tried to wipe out all native Americans and it is a sad time in our history, just as slavery was.

      • Vigilant

        Granny, you’re so right. Jackson violated a Supreme Court ruling to drive the Native Americans from Florida and Georgia, and thousands of them died. Some great president!

      • Dave

        So you why isn’t GWB on your list? Because he was a Republican? Are you a patriot or a right wing radical? They’re not the same thing. Please give me the name of the prefect Republican president. Also, please give me the date that you thought America was perfect. I’m curious as to what time you want to take us back to.

      • Anthony

        I take you mean Andy (by god) Jackson makes the List by virtue of what he allowed to happen to the American Indians? Otherwise, Andrew Jackson KILLED THE BANK … and he is to be considered a HERO in my book.

        If you study history on the American Indian, you will find it was more than Jackson who did wrongs to their People. It virtually started at the beginning of settling on Plymouth Rock… Doesn’t lessen the damage. Still, claiming he should be signaled out… is a bit much.

      • Vigilant

        Anthony, he’s singled out because in his hatred of the Native Americans, he drove them out of the SE even after John Marshall ruled he couldn’t do it. He violated the Constitution to do it. And it resulted in thousands of innocent deaths.

    • dan

      Marx loved Lincoln…the Soviet loved Lincoln…a little known hack pol
      from Illinois who slipped into office by dividing the electorate ….
      sound familiar?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Havent quite found a politician from Illinois yet that was in it for the people. Not yet. Dont know if it will ever happen there. Its quite a mess, and will take a long time to clean it up.

      • Vigilant

        Ever heard of Everett Dirkson?

      • Vigilant

        Apparently you haven’t.

      • Dave

        Where do you even get this stuff. I bet someone else later will say to their friends “I heard Marx loved Lincoln. I read that somewhere.” What is wrong with you?

      • Anthony

        DITTO … somebody here needs to bring proof to back up their assertions.

    • UncleOtto

      Nancy: History is written by those left standing. I read it as HIS-STORY. Tariffs imposed on foreign goods to protect the northern products was very much a cause of secession.

    • John W Goerger

      Agree with you Nancy 110%! Long Live the UNION…President Lincoln Forever!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        I worked for organized labor for 13 years sir, and it is the worst thing that ever happened to American business. It was the unions that sunk GM and Chrysler and cost us billions to prop them up. It is the unions that have bankrupted the U.S. Postal service. It is the unions that have the public school systems in trouble. And more damning than all that, it is the unions that cost companies millions of dollars and make it hard for them to compete with their foreign counterparts, because of the “thats good enough” mentality of the union worked. I know pal, I was there for 13 years, and it was terrible.

      • Dave

        One last thing to Beberoni then I need to get back to work because I have a job unlike many of you. And it’s not Union. What facts do you have to support the fact that Unions brought down GM? Isn’t it a fact that GM made cars that didn’t last as long as foreign cars. They even intentionally used parts that wouldn’t last to make more money in selling replacements. They also ran the company without any fiscal solvency. They just thought they were invincible. Why did the executives make so much money when they didn’t manage well and didn’t actually make any of the products? Would there be a middle class if there were never unions? Unions, like everything else, are not perfect but you’re only looking at one side. I agree that the unions got out of control but it was hardly their fault that GM collapsed.

      • JUKEBOX

        That’s like saying that the bad cut on your leg didn’t cause you to die, it was the loss of blood. The unions have slowly bled GM for the last 50 years, until they collapsed from a lack of blood.

      • Vigilant

        JUKEBOX is right. The billions in GM liabilities to the Unions is what forced the company into bankruptcy. The “obscene” bonuses, etc., of the executives pale into insignificance when compared with the truly obscene benefits the UAW got over the years.

      • Granny Mae

        Beberoni,

        Thank you very much for that statement. I too was in the union and saw first hand the crap that goes on and yes they are the downfall of the auto industry. You will not get anyone to see or understand that though that hasn’t had an inside look at things the way you and I have. I give up trying to explain it to most people because they really don’t want to honestly see they just want to argue. They have limited vision. Unions started out as a good thing, ( may be ) but when it comes to organizing and power it quickly turns to corruption and that is exactly what happened. People forget all about Jimmy Hoffa and how he tried to run the unions from prison and then when he got out, it didn’t take long for the bosses to kill him and get rid of his body! Yep ! Unions are a real good thing !! They take your money every month and you get very little of it in return. They negotiate a new contract with the company and get the worker higher wages and bigger retirements and better insurance, and the only thing that really stays so far is the insurance ! Many of the retirement programs from unions have gone by the wayside, in some companies the insurance went first, as for higher wages you get to pay higher income taxes. Then you have the non-auto industry people that have to still get by on their regular wages that didn’t go up when the auto industry wages did. As soon and the contract was ratified , the prices in the stores went up. Auto workers could afford it but the non-auto workers now struggle just a little more. Of course the auto worker doesn’t see it but he is also paying more for everything he buys too. His big raise hasn’t given him much but he won’t see that for a long time. Now you come back to the union and they just increased their dues with the new contract so you are now having a larger union deduction on your paycheck but they won’t complain because they will rationalize that the union got them a raise so they deserve it ! All this is costing the company huge amounts of money and trying to get the return for their product that they need to cover all this they start cutting corners and end up with an inferior product. Now business starts going down hill and it continues to go down hill year after year. Company see’s the hand writting on the wall so they start taking measures that will protect their own interrests and their own pockets. Everyone is greedy! Everyone wants more all the time. Companies lie to workers and so workers form unions, unions see opportunities to get money from the workers and at times from the companies. It goes in a circle and nobody wins! Companies fail and governments jump to their aid so the unions can continue to bilk them and the workers for more and more money so they can continue to buy politicians and presidents so they can improve their power in the world. Do they have the workers best interrest in mind? Not in your life time ! What is the role of the union in a one world government? Why are they so interrested in what is going on in Egypt? What is in it for them to get into China ? $$$$. Dollar signs turn into power !

      • JUKEBOX

        They will fail in Egypt, because they don’t have any auto plants, steel mills, etc.

      • Granny Mae

        Maybe,

        But there are other companies that they can organize and Egypt is ripe for the taking. They all want more money for their labor and the unions will promise them that. They will start to organize the teachers and hospital workers and shop workers and the port and dock workers and there is always the oil companies. Where ever there are people that are dissatisfied there will be a union rep. ready to promise them the moon ! But I fear there is another reason behind the sceens and I can’t figure it out. Mainly because of the muslim population. If they gain control, how do they (the unions) fit in ?

    • Marten

      History by itself nails you at the end………

    • DaveH

      Actually, Nancy, the left benefits from Lincoln’s ignoring of the Constitution and abuse of Government power.
      Why don’t you try reading Chip’s recommended books and see if they make sense, instead of swallowing the sugar-coated version taught by public schools? One example is the common propaganda that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Yet, four of the states that fought on the side of the North were slave states. Read the books and use your brain, Nancy.

  • DaveH

    Good article, Chip. As usual.

  • http://foundersrevolution.blogspot.com/ Patriot1776

    Lincoln was atyrant in many ways. Especially in the idea that the Union must be preserved! This is supposed to be a voluntary Union, Yet, Lincoln took it upon himself to decide that the Constitution was a binding contract even if the General Government created by the contract was in clear violation of its edicts. Slavery played a major role in the war of northern aggression. To deny that would be foolish. But it was NOT the central factor in starting the war, nor in Lincolns motivation just read this letter in response to Horace Greely’s critique of Linclns motivation for the war. Greely was an American newspaper editor. His New York Tribune was America’s most influential newspaper from the 1840s to the 1870s. He was also a proponant of ending slavery and Lincoln in general. Here is Lincoln’s response…..

    Executive Mansion,
    Washington, August 22, 1862.

    Hon. Horace Greeley:
    Dear Sir.

    I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

    As to the policy I “seem to be pursuing” as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

    I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be “the Union as it was.” If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

    I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

    Yours,
    A. Lincoln.

    So…. the War between the States was fought over slavey alone? I think not. Follow the money and you will find the true motivation for the bloodiest war in American history.

    • JC in CA

      Dear Patriot1776,
      You have opened a ‘pandora’s history box. You are spot on that the Civil War was all….ALL…about money. Little or I should say, NOTHING, is taught about the Union’s financial situation other than in the documentary video ‘The Money Masters’ and maybe another source or two.

      As I have come to learn, The 1st U.S. National bank’s charter was hotly contested and not renewed after the War of 1812. The patriots in the early government recognized the treacherous actions of ‘unpatriotic’ money….as money owes allegiance to no one.

      So the mid-1800′s were prosperous, no wars, states had their own currencies, No central banks…local, responsible banks loyal to their patrons.

      Here’s one rub I have come to learn is that the North’s Industries, had unions, had to pay wages to their workers….and the Nothern local banks began to tighten their currencies and put pressure on the workers’ reps in congress…messin’ with peoples’ monies is serious business. The Southern Plantation owners had free labor, held great advantage over the north with food, liquor and textile industries on the backs of the slaves.

      Enter the evil bankers of the North prodding the congress to ‘act’ against the evil doers in the south, owning slaves. It was never about the existance of slaves, but the pressure of ‘fairness’ in the corporate world. This was cleared up after I learned about the corporate lawsuits filed in favor of viewing corporations as ‘individuals’ with ‘corporations having rights as the individual persons’ that the lawyers and big banks and big steel and rail corporations of the day. Right after the War, over 300 lawsuits were filed for the ‘rights’ with over 290+ filed for corporations and a small handful filed in favor of individual blacks and their ‘civil rights’.

      The history is out there to be learned. I hold the responsibility for my family , to work, pay taxes, and teach history when it affects my family and my loved ones.

      Chip, I trust you do keep your powder dry as do I.

      JC

      • Vicki

        JC in CA writes:
        “The Southern Plantation owners had free labor….”

        Just a casual reminder, slaves are not and never have been “free” labor. It costs to buy them, to feed them, to house them. Their labor would likely be lower cost then the union labor of the north but it was never “free”.

      • Mario

        Just because it wasn’t free made it OK?

      • Eric Bischoff

        I love these discussions they help people show their true colors. Notice the lack of response here. I see the modern hatred on organized labor as just another extension of the backwards thinking on slave labor not being so bad. Hey we housed them and fed them what are they complaining about!

      • vicki

        Mario says:
        “Just because it wasn’t free made it OK?”

        Did it violate first principle? Did it violate the Constitution?

      • DaveH

        We don’t hate organized Labor, Eric. We just recognize them for what they are — a gang of bullies who extort money from company owners and prevent other willing workers from earning a living.

      • DaveH

        Also, the Unions achieve their ill-gotten gains at the expense of the rest of the citizens whose standards of living are diminished by the higher cost of goods and services.

      • DaveH

        Notice, Folks, that Eric attempts to take the moral high ground about slavery when in fact it is his kind that are trying to enslave the United States citizens with their Big Government.
        Yes, Eric, slavery is wrong. So how about you stop trying to force the rest of us to turn over our money and choices to the Liberal elite who think they know what is best for everybody else?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        I have to agree with what DaveH said Eric, about organized labor. And you see, I know, I was a part of it for 13 years, and I saw enough that If I were to ever own a company, and my workers mentioned the word union, I would close it immediately, as I saw the thousands upon thousands of dollars of waste and theft these union thugs caused the companies I worked in, and nothing was ever done about it. Shameful, and you need not look any further than organized labor to see why GM and Chrysler have failed so miserable. Funny Eric, how Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Volkwagon, Audi and others didnt fail, competing in the same exact market. Gee Eric, now what could have possible caused them to be such miserable failures, and deemed to be important enough for Obama to reward their failure with billions of dollars? Hmmm, doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

      • Vicki

        Since Mario is unwilling or unable to answer my questions I shall do so myself

        Mario asks me (trying to imply that which is not):
        “Just because it wasn’t free made it OK?”

        I asked Mario: “Did it (slavery) violate first principle? Did it (slavery) violate the Constitution?

        I now answer yes (to both). Therefor of course it was NOT ok. This is not at all relevant to my point which is that slaves did not provide “free” labor. But then it is a typical liberal argument to try and distract you from the points of a discussion.

        I could also comment to Eric’s attempt to take moral high ground but DaveH and others did a nice job already.

      • June

        Mario-No, she didn’t “say” that made it OK!

      • wayne

        You said there was no war in the middle 1800′s.

        Actually there was a whole lot of war. The history of this time is replete with historical tales of illegal wars where most of the victorious aggressors have become heroic by the rewriting of history.

        First off, the war that started it all began with an illegal rebellion by (mostly illegal whites – for all the irony ) immigrants to Mexico overthrowing the existing government and seceding – giving birth to the Republic of Texas in 1835. Skirmishes between Mexico and Texas continued until the Texas joined the union in 1846.

        Thus encouraged by various mostly financial interests and by Mexico’s weakened French-controlled colony status, the newly enlarged United States embarks on an invasion of Mexico from 1846 – 1848 that was by most measures totally unprovoked and forces Mexico to sell – at gunpoint and in a bargain price treaty called Hidalgo- Guadelupe – almost half its territory from Texas all the way to the Pacific and North to the Oregon border (later ceded by Britain to what is now Canada’s edge). Funny that it was less than a year later that gold was discovered in abundance at Sutter’s Mill in 1849.

        Due the addition of Texas, Kansas, and all the new territory, the argument over Slave verses Abolitionist exploded in the Missouri Territory with cross border assaults with Kansas killing hundreds on both sides. This was the REAL beginning of the Civil War – 1854 – 1858 which exploded outward when John Brown attacked Harper’s Ferry in Virginia in 1859.

        This set the stage for next November’s election win by Lincoln and the secession of the Southern States with the Ft. Sumter battle in April 1861.

      • John Woodbury

        Wayne, while I am not an expert on the Texas War of Indipendence, I can tell you it would never have happened if the Hispanics of Texas did not support it. Look at a map of Texas and see just how many Hispanic names the counties have. If I were you I would suggest to you reading old books both for and against the war with Mexico before you pop off. The treaty signed with Mexico gave Texas the land North/East of the Rio Grande. But Santa Anna never meant it and as soon as he was freed and back in power he tried to take the land in bits back. He insisted that the treaty was null and void because he signed it while a prisoner, and isisted on two other rivers as boarders, the Pacos (South/East of) and the Nueces (North/East of). The Americans took possion of Texas to the Rio Grande and bulit a fort there. Fort Brown, named after the first man to die protecting Texas form Mexico. The first two battles were in Texas and the Mexican army moved North to fight them.

      • Dave

        JC and Chip, interesting interpretation of loose facts you have. So you’re implying that people opposed slavery because of unions. That’s pretty convenient. The union that existed back then kept 10 year olds from being abused at factories and the such. I guarantee there were not pension plans and health benefits and the such. Slavery was and is immoral. Was the war simply about slavery, NO, were there people who may have encouraged it for their own selfish interests, YES. That doesn’t mean that the southerners were poor victims here. You can’t just break apart the United Stated on a whim. YOu can’t just not agree and leave. That’s just ridiculous. What do you think the North should have done? Your “story” is a typical justification for fanaticism and “keeping your powder dry.” You know what, I think we fought this war already, YOU LOST! Get over it and let’s all live our lives.

      • Vicki

        Dave writes:
        “The union that existed back then kept 10 year olds from being abused at factories and the such.”

        Really? how did they do that? Didn’t the 10 year olds have parents? Were the 10 year olds held in slavery chained to their workbenches?

      • libertytrain
      • Granny Mae

        Libertytrain,

        Thanks for the sight. Good information !

      • Granny Mae

        Vicki,

        Back in the old days, people had children to help with the work on the farm or sometimes even to help by working out to bring in more money. Things back in the 17 and 18 hundreds were very different than they are today ! I had my children do chores to teach them the skills they needed to get by but going to school was my main interrest for them . In my father’s day most kids were lucky to have an 8th grade education. Especially if you lived on a farm. The chores of the farm fell to the children in the winter time for a lot of farmers because the head of the household would try to earn extra money durring wintertime by working for someone else. In my fathers case his father spent the winters working in the woods of Michigan cutting lumber ! Dad and his brother and sisters had to do all the chores on the farm and still go to school. It became such a burden for the kids that they ended up quitting school so they could keep things going on the farm ! It was a ruff life.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Granny Mae,
        My father did jig and fixture work, he did tool and die work, he did R & welding and design, He took two small cars and from the parts made a bull dozer. He did carpentry, concrete, ifr he wanted a tool and didn’t have it, alot of times he made it. He did this all on a fifth grade education! The difference between him and a lot of these college deucated idiots is he was very LONG on common sense!!!

      • Vigilant

        Dave, you’ve written some of the first sensible words I’ve read on this site. Thank you.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        But you see, there is a new slavery now, and it is forced on workers. Its called taking money from you, then redirecting it to the democratic party. Its called Union dues. Then there is the forced thing, where if they find your not voting for the democrat of their choice, they will kick you out of the union. Now you may not call this slavery, but that is exactly what it is. They own you, lock, stock and barrell. But you all that demonize what was done 100 years ago, and I agree it was wrong, but you know, its over and done with, so let it go, but still it is brought up all the time, and yet you guys are participating in slavery today by forcing people to give you money to give to a politician that isnt their choice, and by getting rid of them if they dont vote a certain way. And dont say it isnt that way, or you sir, are a huge, huge liar, in the mold of one Bill Clinton, and thats pretty bad.

      • JUKEBOX

        The liberals love for their myrmidons to teach all of this revisionist history. I read a study recently that said slaves in the South had better housing, food, and medical care than the average industrial worker in the North in the 1850′s & 1860′s.

    • Granny Mae

      Patriot1776,

      Thank You. Very good post. I learned something and that is saying a lot for an old woman ! I never learned any of this in school and I was crazy about history ! Just goes to show you not all things are the same in all parts of this country ! Too bad !

  • s c

    To me, the lesson to be learned from the Civil War is the idea that we’re not that far from another. This time, Uncle Scam is the villain. Washington is Uncle Scam’s “crib,” and Uncle Scam will do whatever it takes to have and hold absolute power over the American people.
    We do need another Lincoln. This ‘Abe’ must free every American slave from Uncle Scam’s evil grasp. It is entirely possible that we will see a modern version of deeds and characters that mirror the days from 1861 to 1865. Throw in the collapse of the dollar, and we have the makings of an international event.
    It’s going to get interesting, people. Are you ready?

    • Richard

      Right sc,
      Lincoln saved the Nation from the Southerners who thought that only French goods were good enough for their fancypants. American goods were too utilitarian for them. So they said the hell with American Indusrty – we want free trade. Lincoln was elected because of his campaign – Protect the Home Markets. Now here we are with free trade and a real unemployment rate of over 20%. It will take someone to rise up as a great leader like Lincoln did because the American people aren’t protecting their markets and themselves.

      • Gordon in Texas

        I agree with both of you. The civil war was fought over shipping and the economy. If the Southern States did leave the Union the North would suffer, as the best ports were in the southeast. The freeing of slaves was a ploy brought about by those who wanted to idolize Lincoln and bring down the South. Lincoln was a dictator.

      • Richard

        Ports didn’t matter as much as all industry was in the North. Free trade meant that the infant industry of the US would be demolished as is happening now. France was preparing to enter the war alongside the South. France had abolished slavery and had turned anti-slavery. Emancipation was the only option to sway the French people against joining the South.

      • Pathfinder

        @ Richard : Glad to see that you admit that emancipation was only a ploy to keep France out of the war.

      • Michael in Iowa

        He sure was. He established the dictatorship of the Federal Government.

      • Bruce D.

        Those who are concerned about States Rights and original intent of the Constitution have to question Lincoln’s place in history. He was the person single most responsible for destroying original intent. It has been under assault ever sense. Today the Constitution has little or no meaning for activist judges and those on the left who wish to dominate individuals and society by abusive Federal power which at this time is rampant.

      • Pete

        Y’all should read Ward Moore’s book “Bring the Jubilee” on what would have happen if the Confederacy “won” the Battle of Gettysburg. Here is the wikipedia article hyperlink

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bring_the_Jubilee

      • Martin

        Yes Lincoln was a dictator. And you are correct. The Civil war was about taxation without representation. It wasn’t about slavery until the war was almost over and lincoln needed a reason to be killing so many americans. How many did he Kill, one out of every 3. If a dictator did that today he would be executed for war crimes. Lincoln was a low life who sent his murderers and rapists South to force them into submission. And this continued after the war was over for many years. And by the way, General Custer was a low life murderer and rapist.

      • http://personallibertydigest Brad

        Lincoln nearly destroyed this nation and Custer got what he deserved.

      • JUKEBOX

        I wonder how many people know that Lincoln called the most prominent black leaders of the time to his office and told them that they should try to gather as many blacks as possible, and return with them to Africa. This movement established the country of Liberia in Africa.
        Lincoln also told them that he did not believe that blacks and whites could live together in harmony.

      • YH

        Slavery was the engine of the souths economy. The souths wealth hinged on enslaved labor. Do you debate that fact?

      • dan

        not so DICK…more about cotton sold to England and excise/import taxes/tariffs levied against it by federal legislature controlled by corporate/industrialists (sound familiar?) and requiring all goods to
        be shipped to England through New England ports (Boston/New York)
        instead of southern ports of New Orleans and Savannah in what I was a concession to the political cabal that allied itself against the agrarian south.

      • BigBadJohn

        Exactly right Dan, The north was hurting and in a number of recessions, the South was prospering because of “King Cotton” so the North wanted the south to share that prosperity.

      • JUKEBOX

        That sounds like Obama saying today, “SHARE THE WEALTH”. The northern legislators were the ones that passed the law about 2/3 vote for blacks, because we had so many in the South, we could have the power.

      • Vigilant

        And why was “King Cotton” so lucrative? SLAVERY! It couldn’t exist without it.

        I’m getting tired of the Southern revisionist historians denigrating Lincoln, and that now goes for the Libertarians as well. Thanks a lot, Chip, for cooperating with the leftists in this country to revise American History and further erode confidence in our GREAT leaders.

        Those who would be apologists for slavery in the South, and assert that it had little to do with the Civil War, are just plain stupid. Anyone who has truly studied Lincoln with an open mind would know that he abhorred the idea of Civil War, that he made his views on slavery very well known on numerous occasions prior to the War, and that slavery was by no means a dead issue.

        The CSA constitution, available for all to read on the internet, advocated extension of slavery into the new territories and states that they wanted to perpetuate this abominable institution. Their talk of a second “war of independence” is ludicrous, as they would have kept the slaves in chains forever and denied them their independence.

      • Pete

        Vigilant,

        If my memory is serving me correctly, I think Southern slaveholders were down to four percent of Southern population. I have no figures on Northern slavery. Half the slaveowners lived with their slaves and worked besides them on small farms. The other half were the plantation owners…..

        SO 96% of the Southern population, at the time of Lincoln, were freemen who owned zero slaves …

        The IMPORT OF SLAVES from Africa was illegal at this time. The flag of the CONFEDERACY NEVER FLEW ABOVE A SLAVERS SHIP !

        Except for some INBRED PLANTATION OWNERS the ownership of slaves was on it’s WAY OUT throughout AMERICA, NORTH and SOUTH !

        THE STARS and STRIPES – OLD GLORY, The flag of the USA flew above many slaver ships …. the same flag used by “The Union”…..

        Jefferson Davis, after the war, sold his plantation to one of his former black slaves … correct me if I’m wrong, I’m a Yankee from the North and my great great grandfather fought in the Northern Army of Agression ….

        Many FREE African Americans FOUGHT FOR THE SOUTH …. WHERE’S THE MOVIE ON THAT !!!!! SOME AFRICAN SLAVES SERVED AS BODYGUARDS TO THEIR MASTER DURING THE CONFLICT !!!!

        The poorer, genetically sound, (not inbred) slaveowners owned probably like one slave. That slave was treated like the rest of the family – de facto, (but a slave legally) – they even went to church together ….. no segregation there !

        Honest Abe honestly wanted to keep those tariffs coming in for the Federal coffers. Southern independence was interpreted as a tax (tariffs) rebellion. The darn inbred plantation owners wouldn’t budge because they were mentally deficient …. literally INBRED ! Like the Kings and Queens of Europe were at that time ! or the banjo playing hill billy on the movie “DELIVERANCE” …. they had always been pampered and felt the war would be over in a few weeks … stupid ‘tards !

        So their you have it … Mental Deficient Inbred Plantation Owners who looked butt ugly ! And were dumb as cow manure !

        You have all them tariffs coming in – the South was WEALTHIER and RICHER than the NORTH !!!

        You have them poor farmer slaveowners, simple folk (but not inbred – they were intelligent Johnny Rebs !) treating their slaves practically equal to the rest of the family …..

        And then it’s all “Gone With the Wind” …… the NORTHERN INVADERS BURN ALL THE FACTORIES, BLOW UP ALL THE SHIPS, BLOCKADE ALL THE PORTS, BURN DOWN MANY OF THE TOWNS and relocate many captive Southerners to Northern cities …. but the inbred white plantation owners (who needed plastic surgery because they were so butt ugly) were not committed to asylums …

        So the initial reason for Northern Agression against the Confederacy was tariffs. When the Southern economy WAS RUTHLESSLY DESTROYED the reason was conveniently switched to “slavery” …

      • Vigilant

        Pete says, “…Southern slaveholders were down to four percent of Southern population. I have no figures on Northern slavery. Half the slaveowners lived with their slaves and worked besides them on small farms. The other half were the plantation owners…..

        SO 96% of the Southern population, at the time of Lincoln, were freemen who owned zero slaves.”

        And your point is….what? I’m sure those figures meant a lot to the slaves in Mississippi and South Carolina, who outnumbered the whites in total population, BUT HAD ABSOLUTELY NO VOTE, NO SAY IN HOW THEIR LIVES WERE TO BE CONDUCTED, WERE UNABLE TO KEEP THEIR FAMILIES TOGETHER, COULD HAVE THEIR LIVES SNUFFED OUT OR BE BEATEN FOR MINOR INFRACTIONS, etc., etc.

        Over four million blacks were slaves in 1860, and the Constitution of the CSA would have perpetuated that evil institution into the new territories and states. And you say it was on the way out? You bet your ass it was, and it took thousands of deaths and years of civil war to do it!

        That ANYONE could try to soften, mitigate, rationalize or condone the evils of slavery, or in ANY way say that things really weren’t all that bad needs to have their head examined. We fought a Revolutionary War over slavery, if you will, on the part of Great Britain, and to enshrine the ideals, nay the RIGHTS of life, LIBERTY and pursuit of happiness.

        Tell you what, Pete, I’ll buy you and your wife and kids and you can come here to work for me on the farm. The hours are long and hard, but you’re guaranteed two or three meals a day and a place to sleep, OK? I won’t beat you, and you might even get some pocket change from me or perhaps a turkey at Christmas, but that’s about it. Of course, if I take a fancy to your wife you’ll have to put up with it, ’cause that’s the way the system works. And if I decide to sell off one of your kids, that’s kosher too.

        Now I may be only one of a few percent of people who own slaves, so that should be OK with you

      • Vigilant

        And BTW, Pete, I really wonder about your obsession with inbreeding. Doesn’t strike close to home, does it?

      • Pete

        Vigilant,

        White Europeans pretty much stopped being slaves about 500 years ago (exception is the Slavs in Eastern Europe). Africans pretty much stopped being slaves 150 years ago …

        Hey, you know whats going to happen. If you take a liking to my wife – Master Vigilant, that’s OK ! If Missus Vigilant takes a liking to me, that’s OK with me too ! Your wife has my son – and you won’t even know !! Heh Heh !!

        Those Old Latin Families sure had it good ! Lucky Romans !

      • Pete

        Vigilant,

        About the inbreeding, you got to look at some of the photographs, those woman didn’t look like Olivia De Havilland ….

      • Pete

        Hey Master Vigilant,

        Take care of my, oops, your boy !

      • ValDM

        Also, don’t forget the railroads of the South. The robber barons o fhte North just couldn’t stand the idea of not having their greedy mitts on these profit makers. They tried to “nationalize” them in that day, and the South just wasn’t having any of that.

      • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Lisa

        Richard,
        The South had a right to trade with whomever they chose. That is the whole point of a republic and states rights.

      • kate8

        The thing about history books is that they promote the bias of whoever writes them. How can we ever know the actual truth about history, about the who and why of events, and what doors were left open for future turns.

        It’s frustrating. I suppose we need to always bear in mind that men are always deeply flawed, subject to personal interests and, perhaps, that they feel that they are following a calling.

        It’s not so bad growing up believing in American heros and holding them up as ideals to emulate. Perhaps more important than trying to figure out the truth about history is figuring out what we can learn from what we believe about it, and how to apply that for a betterment of our today.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        I agree with you Kate. Everyone can write about history, and apparently anymore, re-write history to read it as they think it should have been. Who is to say who is telling the truth and who isnt. Who can truly examine the mans heart and know if in his mind he was doing what he thought best for the country, or for himself. If for the country, then as president, that is what he was paid to do. On the other hand, only going on the the current level of politicians from Illinois, who know what was going on in his heart and mind. Its not like Illinois has ever had a politician that wasnt rotten or crime connected in one way or another, and its even worse now. When youve got a guy that is a higher up in the Federal Government, and he walks away and quits to go try to become the mayor of Chicago, wow, that says loads. But each author of books can present compelling points and make it appear as their version is the truth. Who knows, I dont. I wasnt there. And like you said, I chose to learn from things, and try to make things better for myself and my fellow man, not sit there and point fingers and place blame, not offering any solutions to making things better, like some current administration we have now.

      • http://none BobM

        You are so right. Human life is a journey of travails, Socrates’ shadows on the cave walls. Without ideals we have no inkling of choice or path. The truth is; we have too little of either. The South over time felt little or no allegiance to the North, falling prey to its own vices for luxury and separation of powers. While the North gasped for survival without the South’s mercantile allegiance. Since the Declaration and rancor surrounding the first writing of the Constitution, the South saw and believed the North had little interest in their way of life, but compelled the constitution delete the abolition of slavery. This conciliation from the Northern Colonies codified the Force majeure needed to depose a King. Jefferson, himself a slave owner, remarked that slavery would be ‘the dog that would come back to bite us’, and as he foresaw….it certainly did, and has in a big way. By default our Constitution declares a preservation of the Union. While no other nation on earth that partook in that evil suffered as we have, it is because our Judeo-Christianity, conscience and remorse, that we begged providences’ punishing retribution. Essentially the US paid the price for the soul of the world at the expense of family and fortune, but most certainly not our future. A debt paid is a debt forgiven. In this sense, “An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” was modern man’s unlearned lesson, learned. Where now does the rest of the world turn for Democracy?

        The dissolution of the Union guaranteed perpetuation of slavery at least until the industrial revolution’s mechanical productivity would serve as suitable substitute for slavery to the agrarian economies. The South would most certainly not have forfeited this practice had its growing relation with Europe continued to flourish.

        Lincoln saw many things about Europe and France in particular that were ‘unhealthy’ for Americans. He saw, for instance, a ruling class and aristocracy developing between the Southern States and Europe. History is not above all else, isolated from itself. The French Revolution was seen throughout the world as a bellwether or turning point for humanity that had worldwide ramifications, our revolution being one. But its eventual secularism was in conflict with the mores of our Union. The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen on August 26 1789 held that “the source of all sovereignty is located in the NATION; no body, no individual can exercise authority which does not emanate from it expressly” (Noll, 2000, p.247).

        (I put forth to you Chip Wood, this confrontation was a legitimate and codified ideological war ruled by the tenets of our Constitution, signed to by all parties concerned). Winner takes all! Once elected, Jefferson Davis gathered those states that opted in to secession a month before Lincoln took office, then struck the first blow at Ft. Sumter, all this for the want of a ‘French Doily’.

        Now I offer you Chip Wood’s isolated Lincoln quote: “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable — a most sacred right — a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate THE WORLD. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of their territory as they inhabit.”
        Mr. Wood… revolutions have outcomes.

        Just more food for thought begore one engages in the condemnation of Mr. Lincoln.

      • Richard

        Lisa, nobody stopped the South from trading with anyone.
        The Republic had did the right thing and protected it’s markets. No point in having a Republic if you don’t protect the markets because all forms of protection for a free Republic rely on the markets.
        As we are plainly seeing now, our Republic will be just like our trading partners. Has to be, free trade means wages for workers fall to the lowest paid amongst the trading partners. Since Americans won’t work for a few dollars a day – industry leaves in favor of child and slave labor market. So the choice comes – work for the lowest pay or lose your Republic. All simply eliminated by just protecting the markets – industry thrives, high unemployment ends.

      • Levon

        Have you even considered that a lot of buisness have moved from the United States because of the EPA and not because of labor?
        I agree that the South should have been free to trade with anyone they wanted to,they produced it so it belonged to them not the North.

      • Richard

        Certainly Levon,
        Polluters will always want to get away with polluting. The amount of industry lost here because of the desire to pollute is small compared to the amount of industry lost to child and slave labor markets.

      • Bus

        there are so many factual and interpreational errors in your piece that I won’t even bother addressing them. But what your article points out is that extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. Lincoln and the millions who chose to fight for the Union felt these breaches to the peacetime interpretation of the constitution were necessary.
        The constitutional writers realized that in a state of war many protections could and should be removed. That’s why modern presidents look for a war to wage (even if its never declared) because then they can stretch their powers, (Patriot Act).
        Did you know he also started the “National Banking System”? Horrors. Aren’t there enough enemies running around today, do you have to dredge up people of the past and falsly villify them based on present interpretations of morality?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Yeah, Saddam Hussein was a nice guy that never did nothing to nobody, and we should have left him alone to build his weapons and get nuclear arms to blow us to hell and back. Yeah, we just needed a war and made him up. I mean, those 13 years of sanctions didnt mean anything did they? And that list of WMD’S they inventoried when Clinton was president, and they all mysteriously disappeared, that didnt mean anything either. Its just all an illegal war someone did just for the hell of it, with absolutely nothing for them to gain. Do you now see how sick your statement is? The guy you all blame and point fingers at, and talk war for oil and balderdash like that, is gone and has been for over 2 years. Retired. There is no oil. He gained nothing, except finally striking back at an enemy that exploited the weakness of the left to not strike back after being attacked again and again and again. Give it a rest.

      • http://FoxNews Oldman

        Bus, you young people are talking about the morality of long ago and not the present. Anytime our morality changes, we as a people have a problem

        All four of my great-grandfathers were in the Confederate Army. Why? They were Southerns. They knew the US Constitution and what it said. They all began to hate Lincoln long before the war started. I was taught to believe he did not follow the Constitution. If you know nothing about common law and law of the land, you will never be able to understand history.

        Long live my ancestors, man who came to Virginia in the early 1600s as this country became a Colony, and many who fought for our United States to be born, and many of us have fought, not just talked, over many years.

        Long live the ancestors.

      • JUKEBOX

        My great grandfather was also a Captain in the Confederate Army, and I remember the stories of how the “CARPETBAGGERS” came to the South to roughshod over the defeated trash. In those days, that was the original purpose of the KKK, to protect the South from the atrocities of the famed General Sherman. The war WAS about money.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Had the South won, I have no doubt, we would be a much strong, much more a We the People country than we are now. And Im from the North, but we would be far better had the south prevailed.

      • http://none BobM

        Hey Jukebox…maybe they shouldn’t have shot Lincoln. They eliminated their hope for a decent reconstruction but with him out of the way chaos ruled, fortunately, not in the South’s favor.

      • Void1972

        Bus,
        “Lincoln and the millions who chose to fight for the Union felt these breaches to the peacetime interpretation of the constitution were necessary.”
        The majority of “those who choes to fight for the Union” were Irish immigrants that had no choice in the matter.
        New York had a massive riot over this truth, that wealthy man could buy their sons out of service, and the poor would be made to fight.
        Most of the Union Army was against the war, but had no choice in the matter.

      • Jim Harrison

        Protective tariffs are mercantilist in nature. This was the attitude of the British Government toward the American colonies. mercantilism holds that colonies exist for subservience to the mother country. Lincoln and his cohorts endeavored to turn the South into colonies, subservient to their interests. This is why the Northern states wanted every slave to be counted as ONLY three fifths of a person in the census. This weakened Southern political clout in the House of representatives.

        Furthermore, it is not free trade that is hurting America economically; it is unionism, environmentalism, and draconian government regulation that is sending our jobs overseas. If we could drill for oil, build nuclear power plants and shut down the Federal Reserve printing presses, it would be a giant step toward REAL and lasting economic recovery!

      • Richard

        Of course tariffs are mercantilist, you either protect your mercantile or lose it. Of course unionism hurts when corporations can leave and not have to pay a decent wage and then not face a tariff. Of course, if we eliminate the right to organize for workers (unionize) then we should fairly eliminate the right to organize for business (incorporate). If workers have to be individually responsible for handling all matters then all owners should be responsible in the same way – but shareholders will never go for that. Of course environmentalism will drive out industry as long as countries that don’t care about being ruined by pollution can host the industry and no tariff makes it unfeasible. I don’t know who told you we can’t drill for oil – but that is complete BS. Nuclear power plants? There is no such thing as a nuclear power plant that is worth building – uranium is going up and is a very limited commodity and there is no way to handle the disposal of used materials – it is completely idiotic. Stopping the Federal Reserve would be the best thing that could ever happen. But it will never happen – they own you, you are property. Americans don’t have the balls to do anything about their owners.

      • JUKEBOX

        I’m wondering when the South will be retaliated against for our ever expanding auto industry: Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, VW, Kia, & Hyundai. GM & Ford have closed many of their plants in the South. It won’t be long before the jealousy of the northern iron belt states will precipitate some type of illegal action against us, like OBAMACARE.

      • Vigilant

        “Lincoln and his cohorts endeavored to turn the South into colonies, subservient to their interests. This is why the Northern states wanted every slave to be counted as ONLY three fifths of a person in the census. This weakened Southern political clout in the House of representatives.”

        Jim, your understanding of the 3/5 compromise is totally misguided. The compromise was reached to save the Constitution; it could not have been ratified without it. Why? Because the slaveholders wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

        The Southern bastards wanted representation in Congress based on total state population, including slaves! Of course, it didn’t matter that the slaves in fact had no say whatsoever in government because the South considered them as property, not human beings.

        The North said, “you can’t have it both ways.” You either free them to become full fledged citizens with voting rights, or you relinquish any claim to representing them. OF COURSE it weakened the political clout that the south felt entitled to, but without the 3/5 compromise, they would have had even less clout.

        Even Frederick Douglass understood the import of the compromise, and it was rightly considered an anti-slavery measure, not a pro-slavery one. And if you consider this to be punishment of the south by taking away legitimate representation, then you must be a pro-slavery person.

        Facts are indeed stubborn things. You might want to read an unbiased history book some time.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        There are also many, many accounts out there, that the rich Northerners also had slaves, and were much more arrogant about it.

      • Pete

        Vigilant,

        That’s pretty liberal, at least a slave counted as 3/5 a person, I don’t think they counted that much at any other time in history .. Crazy Americans !

      • Vigilant

        That’s OK Pete. I would never expect a person of normal intelligence to turn every serious discussion into a joke.

      • DaveH

        Here we are with Free Trade? Surely, you say that in jest Richard? You mean we can still buy and sell freely if the Government approves?
        We haven’t had Free Trade in the last 100 years.
        For anybody who is interested in understanding the economy, just go to the website that Chip recommended:
        http://mises.org/

      • Richard

        Understanding the economy is extremely simple. If you don’t apply the tariffs that are great forefathers knew had to be, then you lose. Simple fact that wages have to fall to the lowest amongst trading partners. If the wages don’t fall then the jobs go. The only way to have industry is to protect it – just as our forefathers did.

      • DaveH

        Simple for those who don’t understand it. Here is a free online book detailing the mistakes of the Great Depression, including protectionism:
        http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf

      • Richard

        You mean here’s a pdf the international bankers that want people to fall for free trade have made. The depression was caused by bankers – not smart protectionism.

      • DaveH

        You think so, huh? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that protecting companies of people from competition is no different than protecting individuals from life by giving them welfare. Both result in lazier, less productive people.

      • DaveH

        So, Richard, you dismiss a book without reading it? How convenient.
        Protectionism is pushed by companies who don’t want to be subjected to the rigors of competition. That comes at the expense of higher prices to the consumers and lost jobs to the innovative people that would be their competitors without the added expense of regulatory hurdles meant to favor Crony-Capitalists.

      • DaveH

        And finally, Richard, I want to address your unfounded accusation that the book is a front for central bankers. If you knew anything about Murray Rothbard (the author), you would know that he is a staunch Libertarian, and we Libertarians are the only political party calling for the elimination of central banks.
        Read the book. Learn something.

      • Richard

        Libertarians are very often tools used by the international bankers, especially in support of free trade. Protecting your markets has nothing to do with protecting companies from competition. Other American companies are allowed to compete freely, and protection in the form of tariffs that allow our markets to survive don’t stop foreign competition from competing – it just stops them from ruining our markets as is happening now. And in the case of quality – if Americans don’t keep it as high as it should be – the tariff won’t stop the poor quality company from failing. There are plenty of fronts for the bankers – Cato (especially so) ,the Libertarian party, the Democrat party, the Republican party, and many think tank members at heritage, etc.

      • DaveH

        Richard says “Libertarians are very often tools used by the international bankers”. So you honestly expect people to believe your fabricated facts, Richard, when the Libertarians are among the few people calling for non-fiat collateralized money?
        I think, Richard, that you are a front for International Bankers. See, I can fabricate facts like you can.

      • DaveH

        For those who might (through ignorance) swallow Richard’s fabricated facts:
        http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10419

      • Richard

        There are plenty of Americans of all parties calling for the elimination of the Fed and fiat tripe. When you get a little older with some experience you will most likely begin to see how things actually work since you seem bright. The bankers use the right heavily, they use the left heavily, they use think tanks very heavily. Places like Cato would simply cease to exist without the banker’s dollars funding them.

      • DaveH

        So, here’s a guy who won’t read a book, because he’s afraid apparently that he might learn something, admonishing me to get more experience. What a joke.
        Ask yourself folks — Do you want Free Markets where you make the choice of which products to buy, where you succeed or fail based on the amount of effort you want to exert? Or do you want Richard’s idea of good economics where you hire unproductive bureaucrats to make your choices for you, and pay them dearly to make those choices for you? What’s dearly? Right now the Government sucks up over 40% of our financial and physical resources. Imagine how many more goods and services we could buy if we saved just half of that money (Government spending at 1950s levels).

      • DaveH

        Speaking of experience, anybody who has been around since the 1960s knows just how shoddy American cars were becoming until the Japanese automakers started selling quality cars to us. Without that competition we would be taking out ten year mortgages to buy our American cars and they would have been of much poorer quality. Without that foreign competition the Union auto workers would be even fatter and happier at our expense. That’s protectionism in a nutshell.

      • Richard

        David, I don’t know who told you I didn’t read the book. I will now admonish you on comprehension. Nowhere do I state to hire unproductive bureaucrats – your comprehension sucks. Or is it that you do understand and know you can’t win? You post about succeeding based on effort – that is the way it should be – but cannot be with free trade in a free nation – because success depends on being cheaper than the nations that are not free. Bringing up the 1950s is awesome – a great era. After the depression followed by WWII, America was heavily in debt yet rose above it. How did America rise then to become an industrial superpower with a great standard of living in the 1950s? Protecting the markets!!!

      • Richard

        So Dave you don’t believe Americans can compete with each other and someone would have started making quality cars to compete?

      • DaveH

        You’re admonishing me, Richard? You have provided no evidence or logic to support your claims. Instead you have repeatedly stated such nonsense as our “Forefathers” knew tariffs were necessary, and personal attacks on me.
        Tariffs only enrich Government coffers and their Crony Capitalists. The rest of us are stuck with paying the higher prices and suffering with the lesser quality that results when people or companies are protected from competition. If you did read the book, then you know that a large factor in the Great Depression was Protectionism which led to the balkinization of trade amongst our former trading partners. Tariffs are just yet another scheme employed by Government to transfer our wealth to theirs and their Crony Capitalists’ pockets.
        A Free people can choose where to spend their own money without interference from Big Government.

      • DaveH

        And Richard,
        Speaking of sucky comprehension, I said the 1960s, not the 1950s. Maybe you need some new reading glasses?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        When you install protections that dont allow free trade, meaning I decide as the buyer whom I want to purchase from, and dictate to me that I can only buy from 1 or 2 places, and count out 3 and 4, your doing everyone a great injustice. Let the free market work, and keep government out of it. Expanding government is wherein the problem originated and still is. The free market will dictate who is successful and who isnt, because we can buy from whom we please, not being forced to pay an inflated price because of government interferance. That is what is happening now.

      • Pete

        Richard,

        The fallacy of your view is it doesn’t take into account the nation state. You assume moral sanction of buying from another nation/state is good because the price is lower.

        Nation/states do exist, and the government of these nation/states should make sure their citizens get the better deal. The US government has reneged on this with NAFTA and out trade with China ….

        In other words – preverting your prophetess Ayn Rand’s Objectivist reasoning – the normative function of government is to protect their people. Free trade in Libertarian (an Mises) reasoning is relegated to a dysfuntional use of government.

        Hi Libertarians ! I have some bad news for you, GOVERNEMNTS EXIST AND SHOULD FAVOR THE PEOPLE THEY GOVERN …. Y’know existence exist also ?

        By FIAT when I allow my people to trade with THE COMMIES in China I am arming my enemy…. Didn’t you read Atlas Shrugged where Ragnar Danneksjold is the capitalist pirate, sinking all those Socialist countries who had “free trade ” agreements with the USA?

        Why aren’t you Libertarians doing the same thing ? John Galt said he would put an end to all the socialist garbage ….

        I’ll tell you why, because “free trade” helps you rationalize that trading with the bad guys is good.

        No wonder you are know as Rand’s illegitimate children …

        Oh, by the way, I’m not a capitalist nor a socialist … I’m an advocate of technology …

      • Pete

        Richard,

        I apologize, that monologue of nonsense I just spouted was directed at DaveH !

        Forgive a senile fool …

      • Pete

        DaveH and Vigilant

        I’m just talking out of back orifice .. don’t take it wrong .
        Things are pretty boring right now at the funny farm, they revoked our TV priviliges for a week for not taking our meds, no more Star Trek …

      • http://sparkysma@earthlink.net Penny R. Freeman

        It’s obvious Richard that you think the entire South was plantations and slave owners. Well you can think again. There were the wealthy in the South, but there weren’t that many plantations. Most people were just everyday working folks trying to support their families back then just like they are today. Yes, I’m from the South y’all and proud of it. I’ve lived here my entire life. The farthest north I have ever bothered to travel is St. Louis, MO. And for your info Chip when I was in school we were taught the same things about Lincoln that you were. What makes you think textbooks down here differ from those anywhere else, except possibly looney tunes California? But the farther I went in school the more I read and learned about the war and the way our states were treated by the North. There’s one thing that you Yankees never have understood about Southerners, back then especially, honor and respect were valued even above money. Yes I do know Robert E. Lee lead the Confederate army, but if you don’t know he did that reluctantly. He went to West Point just like Grant did and really didn’t want to see the war start. But his allegiance to his troops kept him from standing against them, that’s why he became the South’s lead general. And yes I have read about what would now be termed war crimes that were committed by Lincoln and the northern troops. But if you ask me we now have the worst president in office we’ve ever had. He is deliberately spending this country into financial destruction. No, you Yankees don’t make the assumption that I’m criticizing Obama because of the color of his skin. I probably have more African-American friends than I do white. I was taught early on by my mother who grew up in Missouri that prejudice is wrong. I criticize Obama because I have never liked his liberal/socialist agenda. He’s spending away my children’s future and destroying this country in the process. Besides if you can’t tell just by watching him that everything he says is a lie, you’re not paying attention. The only time he comes close to even delivering a speech that might make him appear favorable is when he has his campaign manager in the background probably writing or assisting writing his speeches. Did any of you take note of how he quickly backed the protestors in Egypt, but since the Tea Party were criticizing him he quickly called them every name he could to invalidate their protests? I understand Oprah Winfrey made a public statement about how she expected people to respect him because of the office he holds. Well I respect the office, but not the person in it. He has shown nothing from day one but total disrespect for the American public. Until he shows respect for ALL of us (not just his labor union boss buddies, George Soros, and his select others) he’ll not gain any respect or vote from me. The first day I showed up to work at a manufacturing plant years ago and saw that almost everyone else was African-American I really didn’t know what to expect. I was respected more and treated like a part of the group from the minute I walked in than our current liar-in-chief has ever respected anyone outside his little inner circle. Too bad people don’t have proof on some of the things rumored about him. If they did we’d save ourselves and this country a lot by being able to impeach his constantly spending a**!

    • Dave

      (Offensive attack removed) as usual,. Your view of the world should scare any intelligent person, and probably does. What do you think about Obama helping to encourage a peaceful change to democracy instead of going to war and killing thousands to try to force it, by the way? You say in your article that Lincoln told Texas it has the right to secede from Mexico but didn’t allow the south to secede from the US. Well, let’s see, maybe it’s because he wasn’t the president of Mexico. Maybe the southerners who seceded were treasonous and needed to be dealt with. Was the south really going to just coexist next to the north. What about manifest destiny? What about solidarity? Can states just secede from the country they supposedly love because they can’t their way? Are they spoiled little children who try to emancipate themselves from their family because they have to go to bed at 8:00? PLEASE, everyone here who believes what this man is saying, PLEASE read a book with facts in it. YOu don’t have to believe the “liberal media” Just don’t believe Fox and people like Chip Wood instead. People like Chip constantly tell you the sky is falling and then when bad things inevitably happen they say “I told you so. I’ve been telling you along. See, I’m right about everything. Listen to my lunacy.” That’s how people like Hitler and Mao and Stalin come into being. Sure he uses Capitalism and freedom talk instead of communist talk but he’s doing the same thing. He’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Don’t you notice how he tells you armageddon is coming and then every other email is tryign to sell you stuff to help you survive armageddon. Do you see how he and people like Glenn Beck push buying gold and scare you into it then they make money off of selling you the gold? Just think twice and let’s all try to work together and not let people like Chip and Rupert Murdoch divide us for profit and a feeling of self worth.

      • Granny Mae

        Dave

        Well I guess you think most people out here don’t have a mind of their own nor are they capable of sorting out information and comming to their own conclusions on most any matter. Wow ! I see more interpretations of ever idea and thought in these blogs than anywhere. I listen to Beck and CNN and HNN and CBS,NBC, and sometimes ABC. I also get several mailings from many sources and some of them sell a lot of things out there and still I haven’t bought the first thing from any of them ! I’m not as narrow minded as you seem to think but it sure looks like you have the corner on that ! All of us are capable of deciding what we feel is true and that is our right. I would appreciate it if you stuck your opinnion in your pocket and keep it there !

      • Dan az

        Hey Granny
        You still got it girl!

      • Joyce from Loris

        Brilliant, Granny Mae, and well said. I am a Southern woman, and my lessons from the Civil War are FAR different from those that were taught in the North. However, I have studied both arguments. I also like to seek the FACTS. I just know this… that according to the census of 1859 and 1860, only 5% of Southern people even owned a slave. The hard working farmers and their families did not go to war so that the few, rich slave owners could keep their slaves. 80% of all taxes in the US were paid by Southern people. After the war started, Lincoln was interviewed by a newspaper, and asked “Why not let the South go in peace?” His response… “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government?”. These are documented facts,and there are many more just like these.

      • Granny Mae

        Joyce from Loris,

        I have no doubt that those are surly the facts. It is always like that in war. It serves only the rich and the poor get poorer and stand to loose the most and always do. It is a shame that the truth was never taught in our schools. I guess they never heard the saying The truth will set you free ! Here I am an old woman and just now learning the truth of our history. The south is my adopted state . I’m here by choice and I’m staying. I’ve been here 40 years now and that is more than half my life so I guess you could say I’m a southerner! My kids all grew up here so this is their home all their lives and they won’t be going anywhere. Yep, I’m home !

      • Vigilant

        Want some FACTS?

        From http://www.suite101.com/content/the-1860-census-and-slavery-in-the-united-states-a83730

        “Why Did Non-Slave Owning Whites Support the System?

        Slavery was enshrined in the Constitution of the Confederate States of America. Most of the political and military leaders of the Rebel States, as Lincoln called them, owned slaves. As recent historians like James McPherson of Princeton have demonstrated, non-slave owning whites enlisted to fight for an ideal of freedom (generally, freedom from “Northern tyranny”). But this also entailed the full acceptance of the peculiar institution that drove the Southern economy.

        It wasn’t about slavery per se, but more about a lifestyle and culture that existed, at its core, because of slavery. Slavery dominated every aspect of Southern existence, regardless of how many people actually owned slaves. That the South saw itself as a confederation of sovereign state entities able to leave the federal union was based on John C. Calhoun’s notion that the South could not safely remain in the Union if the North challenged slavery. Slavery was the dagger that pierced the heart of the Union in 1861.”

        And your claim that the South paid 80% of the taxes? Source, please!!!!

        Read more at Suite101: The 1860 Census and Slavery in the United States: Interpreting Census Data and Research on Pre-Civil War Slavery http://www.suite101.com/content/the-1860-census-and-slavery-in-the-united-states-a83730#ixzz1DnbPE6AC

      • libertytrain

        Granny Mae – well said -

      • Pete

        God Bless You Granny Mae ! You have more brains in your pinky than I have in my whole body. Hopefully, as I get older, maybe I’ll get smarter ? No ? A guy can be hopeful, right ?

      • John Woodbury

        DaveH what a piece of work you are. It is useful fools like you who have no ”education” that are destroying this country. I hope you and all you idological friends rot in Hades forever. In West Texas, we did not have Lincoln’s birthday off, we did have San Jactinto Day off. I hope that your ideas are not the main stream America understanding of recent history; but I am afraid they are. No clue, just blue; describes so many stupid people in America right now, no matter how much schooling they have. I am very sure Chip Wood belives what he says and does not lie. He may be wrong about future events, but who is always right? I can not make that statement about your great leader, The O. What he believes is anyone’s guess.

      • DaveH

        John, I’m a piece of work? Best get out your reading glasses, Ignoramus. That wasn’t my comment.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        john,
        I think right here might be the place to insert the, as Abby would say, the MEA CULPA!!!!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        John, dont confuse DaveH, with just plain Dave. DaveH is a pretty smart conservative guy. Just plain old Dave, is the liberal you meant to send your post against. He is the uneducated one.

      • JUKEBOX

        People who have ideologies like you are the very reason why cities like Detroit and Pittsburg have lost much of their manufacturing base, and have nice homes being destroyed by years of neglect. You need to have generations of your family live in the South before you criticize our way of life and beliefs.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Jukebox,
        I’m not about to cut the southern way of life as I lived there for awhile and I have generations upon generations that come from the south WAY before the war of Northern agression!!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Right. And Obama wants to sit down and have a glass of wine and a nice pork dinner with the Arab terrorists who want to kill us. He thinks himself so arrogant that he can talk them into playing nice. But everyone knows, when youve got an enemy, who has vowed to kill you, and will not stop until we are dead or they are dead, that you dont sit down and talk with them. They laugh at us for this. No, you do what Bush did, you kick them in the groin, then kick them again before they get up. What do you propose, we pull a Bill Clinton, and let them blow up the WTC basement, then the USS Cole, and drag our dead through the streets of Somalia beating their dead bodies on live TV, and do absolutely nothing? Are you nuts? That is why 9-11 happened, as they saw Clinton and the dems did nothing, so they assumed they could do anything, because we are weak. I guess they thought wrong, because finally a MAN was elected who stood up to them and punched back, and God bless him for that. Now the democrats have let off the gas, gotten off track in the war, and are still in the process of making it all crumble so that they can point the finger at Bush and blame him, when the facts are when he left office, things were shaping up really good in Iraq, I know, I talk to guys on the front lines over there. Unfortunately our press didnt tell us just how good it was going. And they are not telling us now how bad it is getting, as these guys are sleeping at the switch, as they dont have clue what they are doing. Just shooting from the hip, trying to be popular. Its a mess, and its time for them to go. You cannot make peace by talking, only by force, will you have peace. So get over yourself and your arrogance, that your mere words mean something to them, because they laugh in your face, and Obama is the laughing stock of the world. Heck man, even the French are laughing at him.

    • Mario

      If people in America did not stand up against the previous administration, they will never do. If we believe in a government by the people and for the people and we still don’t do anything when a bunch of people who use the benevolence of our system to move to leadership positions to use it against the people’s will, then this will continue on and on. Perhaps we have grown to the easy life. It used to be that you have to fight, now a days, no one wants to fight for what is right. Politicians who understand this take it to their advantage, and use it to promote their agendas. They move the masses to a mind set, and they just contemplate their achievements with a smile and wonder how millions subscribe to the wrong ideas because they know how to manipulate. While they reap the benefits of scamming the public, we the scammed prised them for doing what they do to us.
      When us as people are going to stop thanking those who hurt us?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        The previous admin kept you safe, unlike the one before them (Clinton), and these current lepers are sleeping, and we will get it again in the term of whoever serves next, because they have taken their eyes off the enemy. You watch and see. Of course, you lefties spin things, so you will try to blame it on whoever is serving at the time, when it is being set up right now, as obama fiddles and we burn.

    • http://www.jimbernard.org Jim Bernard

      It is unlikely that the south would ever have vulantarily voted to end slavery.

      It is very profitable and convenient to have people working for nothing.

      Even the founding fathers after agreeing thal all men are born equal with inalienable rights, could not bring themselves to free their own slaves.

      But onr of the interesting things about Abe was that he decided not to
      borrow from the private banks to finance the war.

      He instructed the federal treasury to provide the finance INTEREST FREE ! and therefore the cost of the war for his side was not muchh at all.

      This is a vital lesson because the only way the stranglehold on American and world finances can be broken, is for the federal treasuries to issue credit to citizens bank accounts each week as very low interest loans, by electronic bank transfers and sideline the Banks
      see this story of Abe’s money policies

      http://www.jimbernard.org/gpage16.html

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