Bitter Libertarian, read it again I think he is pro carry not anti carry.

JACKIE PHILLIPS says:
January 14, 2011 at 8:48 am
Well thought out Carry Laws are the answer. Everyone who wants to defend their propert, loved ones and just their fellow man should be allowed to carry. To get a permit they would have to.
1. Submit and oay for a back gound check–no felons or wife beaters please
2. Carry liability insurance
3. Have a very heavy fine and penalty for carrying a gin with out a permit.
4. Make pointing a gun at someone in the commission of a crime a automatic 5 year jail term. Shooting it is attempted 1st degree murder.
5. Heavy fines for mis-use of a fire arm and possible revocation of permit.
If you do not wish to carry a gun by all mean do not, but there are thousands of trained ex-military–police etc etc who could be a excellent back-up security force to help all.”

Looks like a TON of INFRINGMENT to me. Who is to pay for all that???? Oh I get it….only someone who can AFFORD it has the right to defend themselves…

Lets make a deal with Jackie.

Everyone who wants to associate with their friends their propert, loved ones and just their fellow man should be allowed to do so.
To get a permit they would have to.
1. Submit and oay for a back gound check–no felons or wife beaters please
2. Carry liability insurance
3. Have a very heavy fine and penalty for associating with out a permit.
4. Make associating with someone in the commission of a crime a automatic 5 year jail term.
5. Heavy fines for mis-use of association (I.E. Criminal behavior) and possible revocation of permit.
If you do not wish to associate with your fellow man by all mean do not.
____________________________________________________________
Or maybe this one.

Everyone who wants to write for their friends, loved ones and just their fellow man should be allowed to do so.
To get a permit they would have to.
1. Submit and oay for a back gound check–no felons or wife beaters please
2. Carry liability insurance
3. Have a very heavy fine and penalty for writing with out a permit.
4. Make writing in the commission of a crime an automatic 5 year jail term.
5. Heavy fines for mis-use of writing and possible revocation of permit.
If you do not wish to write for or to your fellow man by all mean do not.
_______

A right that requires permission of Government is not a right.

He is probably pro carry but has not yet thought thru the meaning of a right vs a privilege.

Vicki,
It’s real simple. It is a priveledge to drive and your licence can be pulled for something as simple as no insurance! gun ownership and carrying is a right and can only be pulled if you commit a felony!!

Why do you think that driving is a privilege?

Joe H. says:
“Gun ownership and carrying is a right and can only be pulled if you commit a felony!!”

Well technically only if you are convicted of a felony. However since I am not allowed to carry a gun even though I have NO convictions of any crime does that mean that carrying is a privilege or does it mean that government does not understand the meaning of rights vs privileges? Or, more ominously, does it mean that government thinks of itself as my Master.

Vicki,
I was only stating facts not what the government practices. It does stand to reason that if they can pull your licence to drive and put you in jail if you continue as supported by the supreme court, that driving IS a priveledge!! I believe the restrictions placed in the second appliy to the federal government as well as the state and local governments!

Vicki, The right to keep and bear arms is a right, not a privilege. However, States do regulate the right to bear (carry) arms. Find your state in my above ‘January 14, 2011 at 4:20PM’ entry, read it, then research your state law on the ‘right to carry.’

Ummmmm, post… PROVE to me that your god is real. I just don’t beieve you.

You say: “GOD-GIVEN RIGHT will not be infringed.”

Shucks post I just can’t submit to your god’s nonsense. Flooding the world, blowing up cities… I want no part of that.

However, I do truse the American people to do the right thing. That’s righ, We the PEOPLE.

Remember, it is here in America where you are allowed to follow your invisible god. Do you hear his voice in your head? BTW, the voices in my head are real when I hook up to my Droid and listen to NPR.

Rob

You know what? I’ll drop the GOD part, and you’re still 100% wrong with relation to where YOUR Rights come from…NOT man, not by a long shot (no pun intended).

We the PEOPLE

Post turtle_hunter writes (to Robert Smith I think):
“You know what? I’ll drop the GOD part, and you’re still 100% wrong with relation to where YOUR Rights come from…NOT man, not by a long shot (no pun intended).

To which Robert Smith writes:
“We the PEOPLE”

Robert you better hope you are wrong cause if you were right then “we, the People” can (and will) revoke your rights. (2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner)

Regardless of your religious beliefs (including the belief in nothing) it is intuitively obvious that you were created. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

It is NOT “we the people” but YOUR Creator that gave you those rights. We the People have a DUTY to honor and defend your rights as you have to defend ours. It is for this reason (to secure these rights) that governments are instituted among men.

Robert,
Prove to me that he doesn’t exhist!!!

“2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner”

In fact the Constitution is there to protect the minority.

If it was a strict “majority rule” we would still have slavery, women couldn’t vote, etc.

Rob

Robert Smith writes:
“In fact the Constitution is there to protect the minority.

If it was a strict “majority rule” we would still have slavery, women couldn’t vote, etc.”

Correct. The specific meaning of Constitutionally LIMITED Republic.
The specific minority protected in the Constitution is the individual.

Instead of blathering on about how there is no God how about providing absolute proof He does not exist.

It is said that you can not prove a negative. However due to the nature of reality I think it will also be difficult to prove the positive. None the less I see the works of my Creator all around me so I have no trouble believing in his/her/its existence.

How’s ’bout the notion that you don’t exist. God is posting trying to gather followers.

Hey god, not interested. Go away.

Rob

GOD to Rob: ” Go to Hell “

Robert, what got me started along the ‘belief’ path was the book of Daniel. It was written 600-500 BC, when the two tribe House of Judah was in captivity in Babylon. King Nebbuchadnezzar had a dream that he couldn’t understand and asked Daniel to interpret it for him. Daniel asked God for help, which came, and then Daniel told the king his dream was about his kingdom and the three empires which would follow it (Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman). The division of the Roman kingdom into two mostly religious kingdoms is still with us. From there I gradually accepted the Bible as historical fact. You’re not alone with your dislike of its war-like theme, most Christians ignore the Old Testament in its entirety.

James,
Careful there. I suggest you read the final verses of the Bible!

Joe H., I’ve read all the Bible many times over. To what verses were you referring?

James,
the verses in revelations about taking from or adding to the word of God! when you facillitate or approve of not paying any attention to the old testament you are taking away from the word of God!!

Joe H. I’m very familiar with Revelation 22:18-19. I was not suggesting that anyone ignore the Old Testament, I was just calling attention to the fact that most of today’s Christians do ignore it.

Ellen, You should read this:

U.S. Constitution, Amendment II:

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Alabama Constitution Article I, Section 28:

That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

Alaska Constitution Article I, Section 19:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State.

Arizona Constitution, Article 2, Section 26:

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men.

Arkansas Constitution Article II, Section 5:

The citizens of this State shall have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense.

Colorado Constitution Article II, Section 13:

The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

Connecticut Constitution Article I, Section 15:

Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

Delaware Constitution Article I, Section 20:

A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use.

Florida Constitution Article I, Section 8(a):

The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.

Georgia Constitution Article I, Section 1, Paragraph VIII:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but the General Assembly shall have power to prescribe the manner in which arms may be borne.

Hawaii Constitution Article I, Section 17:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Idaho Constitution Article I, Section 11:

The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony.

Illinois Constitution Article I, Section 22:

Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Indiana Constitution Article I, Section 32:

The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the state.

Kansas Constitution Bill of Rights 4:

The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security, but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

Kentucky Constitution Section1:

All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned: … Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

Louisiana Constitution Article I, Section 11:

The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

Maine Constitution Article I, Section 16:

Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.

Massachusetts Constitution Part The First, Article XVII:

The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it.

Michigan Constitution Article I, Section 6:

Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

Mississippi Constitution Article III, Section 12:

The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons.

Missouri Constitution Article I, Section 23:

That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned, but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.

Montana Constitution Article II, Section 12:

The right of any person to keep or bear arms in defense of his own home, person, and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but nothing herein contained shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons.

Nebraska Constitution Article I, Section 1:

All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use, and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied or infringed by the state or any subdivision thereof. To secure these rights, and the protection of property, governments are instituted among people, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Nevada Constitution Article I, Section 11,[1.]”

Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes.

New Hampshire Constitution Part First, Article 2-a:

All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.

New Mexico Constitution Article II, Section 6:

No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms.

North Carolina Constitution Article I, Section 30:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.

North Dakota Constitution Article I, Section 1:

All individuals are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property and reputation, pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness; and to keep and bear arms for the defense of their person, family property, and the state, and for lawful hunting, recreational and other lawful purposes, which shall not be infringed.

Ohio Constitution Article I, Section 4:

The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

Oklahoma Constitution Article II, Section 26:

The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power, when thereunto legally summoned, shall never e prohibited; but nothing herein contained shall prevent the Legislature from regulating the carrying of weapons.

Oregon Constitution Article I, Section 27:

The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power.

Pennsylvania Constitution Article I, Section 21:

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

Rhode Island Constitution Article I, Section 22:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

South Carolina Constitution Article I, Section 20:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. As, in times of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained without the consent of the General Assembly. The military power of the state shall always be held in subordination to the civil authority and be governed by it. No soldier shall in time of peace be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner nor in time of war but in the manner prescribed by law.

South Dakota Constitution Article VI, Section 24:

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied.

Tennessee Constitution Article I, Section 26:

That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.

Texas Constitution Article I, Section 23:

Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.

Utah Constitution Article I, Section 6:

The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms.

Vermont Constitution Chapter I, Article 16:

That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State – and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power.

Virginia Constitution Article I, Section 13:

That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

Washington Constitution Article I, Section 24:

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

West Virginia Constitution Article III, Section 22:

A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and state, and for lawful hunting and recreational use.

Wisconsin Constitution Article I, Section 25:

The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

Wyoming Constitution Article I, Section 24:

The right of citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied.

Six States have no ‘right to bear’ clauses in their constitutions, however that doesn’t mean citizens there don’t have the right.

Ellen
In Arizona you have the right to carry concealed with out permits or any other charges.What a state!

for carrying gins a flask works very well and isn’t necessarily obvious.

Rob

I was thinking of gin as in cotton gin not the drink but good point.

Yup, just string us along.

I don’t cotton to that.

It tends to get things all balled up.

But someone will write about it, “Once upon a twine.”

Rob

Robert S. I think Independent had his fingers crossed there.

You are not alone James. Several of us here have been pointing out that the Constitution grants NO RIGHTS (HFlashman: your answer of 5 in a previous thread is in error).

ALL rights come from YOUR Creator. The Constitution is a contract between Robert Smiths “We, The People” and the entity we call the federal government. It is specifically a list of the VERY FEW powers given to the Federal Government. There is further a list of enumerated rights that remind the Government that even if We the People want to we are not allowed to give certain powers to the Federal Government even by Amendment. This of course is the Bill of Rights.

In the Bill of Rights there are even 2 enumerations that further remind US and the Federal Government that there are a LOT of rights not mentioned that belong to the people. And finally the misnamed states rights amendment (Its proper name would be States POWERS amendment) reminds us that the Constitution limits powers that states can have. Any power not covered belongs to the states or the people as of course ALL power comes from “WE the People.”

We the People have ALL the RIGHTS. We the People have all the powers. We the People delegate SOME of those powers to the states and to the federal government. Powers we delegated to the states can not be delegated to the federal government and belong ONLY to the states. Powers we delegated to the Federal Government are not available to the states. As stated in the bill of rights there are some powers government (at any level) is NOT ALLOWED to accept even if We, The People want to give that power to government (state or federal). Infringing upon the right of the people to INDIVIDUALLY keep and bear arms is one such example of a power the government (all levels) is NOT ALLOWED to accept.

Of course this requires people in government who understand the oath they took and who have the courage to uphold that oath against all enemies both foreign and domestic.

Viki
Thank you its always refreshing to read the truth!

I agree with you Vicki, but please tell that to our Congress and Obama. If they will not listen, we will use to vote to oust them in 2012.

They don’t read the bills. They don’t stay to hear the Constitution read aloud. I write to them almost daily (www.downsizeDC.org). They are not listening to me. Or us. In 2012 we NEED to sweep clean all the leftovers and any of the new that did not get the message that we DO want a Constitutionally LIMITED Republic that obeys the CONTRACT as amended.

Vicki, Well said! If you were referring to the Tenth Amendment, I would have said that it limits the powers of the federal government to those that are enumerated in Article I, Section 8. It doesn’t limit the powers of the states, it just says powers not delegated to the United States (the national government) are reserved to the states or the people. It was a reminder to the U.S. Congress.

I still have to ask: Exactly how is owning a gun a “God Given Right”? Did God put these guns in our hands, or Man? Did God give us weapons, or Man?

Who said, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”?

The Right referred to is the right of self defence. There is NO restriction to what degree that is, nor should there be.

Well said, Bitter.

Thanks for the back-up. Funny how “not reading” the Bill of Rights in it’s entirety and paraphrasing our RIGHTS somehow makes up fantasy *rights* that can be argued. The RIGHT to bear arms can be exercised or not, it does NOT entitle anyone to kill for the sake of killing, but as self-defense. That I carry everyday has yet to yield me killing anyone. One good laugh: Ted Kennedy’s car killed more people than my guns and rifles have ever killed. Roughly 45,000 people are killed in auto related incidents every year, but who is protesting the innocent lives lost due to driving fatalities? Are we banning cars, restricting their use? And don’t use that licensing/legalese bogus line because there are tens of thousands on the road right now that have no license or insurance to legally be engaged in driving our roads. Does it stop them? No. Are they going to ban baseball bats, sticks, rocks, golf clubs, glass shards, pointy things, scissors, bricks, bottles, etc? Probably not. Vigilance is eternal if you wish for peace.

The Right of Self Defense (and defense of others) comes directly from the right to life itself. Your Creator gave you 2 gifts. Life and Free Will. It is your DUTY to defend those gifts against all aggressors. Hence the RIGHT of Self Defense. It is your DUTY to defend those gifts in others hence the right of community defense.

To exercise your duty to defend your life and the lives of your community you must be able to possess the best tools for the job. Your Creator gave you the ability to create those tools.

First they were thought to be clubs or rocks on a string like object. http://library.thinkquest.org/J002568/stoneweaponsword.htm Now the best tools are guns though knives, swords, bows, arrows etc collectively called arms are all usable.

To exercise your duty you must be individually able to possess these tools for the aggressor will not always ( almost never ) give you warning that they are coming that you might gather an army to defend yourself/community. (When SECONDS count the police are only MINUTES away. The shooting in Arizona a painful reminder of the truth of this.)

Ergo the right to keep and bear arms (see the partial list above) is an INDIVIDUAL right. It is a fundamental right. It MUST NOT BE INFRINGED.

David, it came from “We the PEOPLE.”

What more explaining needs to be done?

Apparently they are stuck on the god thing rather than the freedoms in America that allow them to worship in their own way unmolested.

Rob

The Rights spoken of in the Constitution of the United States are NOT given by man. For if a man gives you anything, that man can take it away. You really, seriously need some education on your Constitutional Republic. You have the same rights as I do; whether you choose who they came from or to exercise them is entirely up to you. You don’t believe the Lord Jesus Christ, and I do. Because I do believe in the Lord doesn’t mean he exists–I just believe, by my choice. I cannot tell you that he does exist, that is entirely your GOD-GIVEN right to choose! And, we are both Americans, in the same boat, that will float or sink with us both in it, unless we both agree to disagree but be civil to one another.

We the PEOPLE

Some folks just ain’t never gonna get it.

Rob

RS, you ain’t gettin’ it either!

Robert Smith says:
“David, it came from “We the PEOPLE.” ”

And from where did “We the PEOPLE” get it? (it as in rights I think)

Robert
You know I dont thump the Bible here but I can tell you that I have died two times and lets just say that I believe in God and Christ from experience.What I will tell you is that you do have some thinking to do on what your saying.

It’s “Thou Shalt Not MURDER”, not kill. Get it right would you?

“Thou Shall Not Kill” appeared first in English in the original translation of the King James version of the Bible.
At the time this translation was done to “kill” someone meant what we call “murder” today I believe the phrase translates most accurately as “Thou shall not kill unjustly” in other words commit murder. If I remember correctly what we refer to when we say “kill” today was called “to slay” then.

David Fields, You’re right, God didn’t give us our rights. Americans are born with rights, they’re inherited from our forefathers.

Who or what gave them to your forefathers for them to be able to have you inherit them?

Vicki, The Founding Fathers (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc. etc.), when they fought the British for our independence (1776), and won. It was then that Americans had rights. When the federal government was created (1789), those same forefathers added the Bill of Rights (1791) to make sure the national government would exercise no power over our rights.

David, according to the Bible God made man & woman. God fortunately gave most of us enough brains to spring forward and to use our ingenuity to develope things through the many years man has been on earth. Yes, God is the creator of the earth and man. We have been provided with all the necessities of the earth to fend for ourselves. With the common sense God gave man, we have developed, and learned how to function for ourselves. I have always learned that we also has another bad force besides God, who is called the devil. We have two choices, we can either be on the righteous side, or on the Devil’s side. You always read and hear about two different things. One is the good things, and the other is the bad things that happens to people. Look at all the bad things we hear, and read about that turns our stomach. We think to ourselves, how in the world could some one do something so horrible to another human being. The person that does things like this has turned away from God and has accepted the Devil. Thank God that most of us will do the right thing and help those in need instead of kicking them. I believe we all have a little of the old Devil in us from time to time. Watch the Atheist on here have a heyday with this one. However, I will choose to ignore them.

wayne claims: “We have two choices, we can either be on the righteous side, or on the Devil’s side.”

Actually I’ll bet there are a lot of “sides.”

For example there is the Swiss approach to be simply neutral.

My choice is to be mediator if they ever decide to solve their differences.

Rob

The only weapon God put in our hands is our Spirit. The Ark of the Covenant, while used as a weapon, was nothing but the Law of God powered by the Spirits of his people. Every other weapon mankind has ever used was made by Man’s own hands.

I’m not arguing against owning weapons for self-defense or even sport, but when those weapons are aimed at another man, it becomes an Intent to Kill–or as one commenter puts it, an Intent to Murder.

And exactly what rights are “God Given”? Is carrying a weapon a God Given right? What of the Commandment, “Thou shalt not kill”?

SteveB, you’re right in that this was a high-profile event–does that make it any more important that we must be ready to kill ourselves? That makes us little better than they. My point is that the idea of a rush on weapons because “we’re afraid we’ll lose our rights” is totally ridiculous. I still have to ask, what good is a gun in your home if you get shot at the store? Your logic simply doesn’t exist. If you want to go back to the ‘good old days’ where everyone carried a gun openly, then say so. But the reasoning in this article and the comments afterward simply doesn’t work.

David asks: “What of the Commandment, “Thou shalt not kill”?

Slight error in translation. The word is “murder.” Things like self defense are OK.

And the other one is “celibate” should have been “celebrate.”

Rob

Awww post… There goes another “god” argument: “Technically, there is no law that is valid when it comes to GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS”

What part of “WE the PEOPLE” don’t you understand?

BTW, YOUR god doesn’t own me. I’m not accountable to him. I just can’t get up any enthusiasm for a god that knocked up a virgin so he could come and tell us what to do. Why didn’t he come himself if he’s so powerful?

Rob

“Do not be deceived: God will not be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Gal. 6:7-8. By this post you have mocked God. I wouldn’t want to be you on Judgment Day. In addition, wouldn’t you call abortion “destruction?”

Val says: “God will not be mocked.”

Neither will I.

Guess I’m as powerful as your god.

Rob

Robert,
I guess you’re deluded.

Robert,
As long as you are here, you WILL be mocked!!! BTW, are you in good health? I would hate for a nudge from God to be mistaken for natural causes!!!

Another threat from the extreme riech. Thank’s Joe. Another fine example.

BTW, I’m in excellent health. And, if I drop dead tomorrow I’ve lived a long life that has been full of fun and few regrets. The biggest regret is that I didn’t start jabbing at the right until over 20 years ago on Compuserve. They were creepy and oppressive then, and they still are.

Rob

robert,
Having trouble decifering the written word??? there is no threat in my post!!! Just like the progressives to dicern a threat where there is none!!1

It’s a threat Joe.

Oh wait a minute. Your god has no impact on me. People have been telling me the same thing you are about their god for decades, and I’m not dead, no matter how much they predicted it or wished for it.

Your god just isn’t that powerful. Yup, I guess it isn’t a threat. Sorry.

Rob

BTW, wasn’t England some sort of christian nation too? Why did their version lose to America’s?

Rob

Terry, the current deranged shooter from Tucson (the one that did the most recent gun-driven slayings) totally agrees with you.

Tell us Dogma…

You seem to be excited by this shooting and want to weight the laws of America based upon that impact.

How many shootings where there are more than five people killed at a time have there been? What is their frequency?

Please do just a little more research.

How many incidents are there on our roads where more than 5 people killed? Is it daily, weekly…? How does that compare to guns?

The hysteria against guns is just that, hysteria. It’s generatd by loosers like Sarah Brady who have some mental condition that compels them to mess in the lives of others. I put them in the same extremest league as anti-abortionists.

Rob

Everyone! Let’s all sing together now…

“Let the bodies hit the floor…let the bodies hit the floor…” etc.

Hooray for gun violence!!

dogma,
if they invade my home and threaten me or my family, then YES! hooray for gun violence!! you cower in fear as they rape your wife and murder your kids, I prefere to go down fighting IF I go down!

(offensive comment removed)

Rob

Robert,
go write another support check!!!

When seconds count the best the police can do is minutes.

It ain’t no more complicated than that.

Rob

Bob, I don’t agree with you. Everyone, regardless of where they live have basically the same needs. Living in different states dos not even enter into the picture.

A carry permit should be exactly like it is for driving.

If you can drive at home you can drive anywhere in America.

Af you get a permit at home you should be able to carry anywhere.

Rob

Yep! you are one of the liberals that most of us are talking about. At least you admit it. A lot of the people who are now in government are the flower children from the sixties. Is it any wonder the country is all screwed up? It hasn’t always been this way Robert. It all started sometime after the sixties.

Hi wayne… Here you go again: “It hasn’t always been this way Robert.”

Correct. Pot was mostly legal in America before the 30′s and “Reefer Madness” that was primarily a law against Mexicans and the Bebop scene.

MOF, most drugs were completely legal most places before the 1900′s. Throughout most of history drugs were mostly legal in most places. There was some resistance from clergy who saw patients getting relief from herbal remadies whe prayer didn’t work but that was completely religious based as a control device, not what was best for the patient.

We didn’t have drug wars (with the exception of the Opium Wars that wasn’t about violence in the streets but a British effort to control another nation).

Druggies and drunks were usually allowed to “sleep it off”. They were shamed enough to do enough to subsist. The sharrif would put them in a cell so thy wouldn’t hurt themselves or others. The cop was a good guy then, not someone coming to take years away from their lives if they had a few grams in their pocket.

BTW, which would you really rather be? A cop that would toss someone in a cell to keep from from hurting anyone that night and give ‘em a cup of coffee on the way out OR a jack booted thug who rounds ‘em up, gets ‘em to court, and puts them away (at taxpayer expense) and ruins their lives with a felony wrap sheet?

What do you really think would be the christian way?

Rob

robert,
your freedom of choice thing is a little one sided. If a woman gets pregnant and decides to have the baby, the guy pays for 18 to 21 years. If she gets pregnant and decides not to have the kid, the father has no say there as well. Talk about taking what you want. My best friends ex wife has three children by three different men and collects over 500 a month from each! she is also a manager and makes more than two of the men!

Joe is upset about support issues: “If a woman gets pregnant and decides to have the baby, the guy pays for 18 to 21 years.”

I think that is a very bad thing. It is HER decision to remain pregnant or not. If they are not partners in the ongoing effort to bring the kid up he shouldn’t be held to pay. If she decides to bring a baby into the world and not take care of it the father should able to.

It would be even worse if society forced her to keep it and then told the guy he had to support it. If society keeps a woman pregnant against her will it is the responsibility of SOCIETY to pay for it.

Watching individuals I’ve always been amazed that some seem to get so upset about their sacred sperm. If one gets into an egg then the declair that egg to be half theirs. OK, let THEM gestate it if the girl doesn’t want to. Let them support their belief with action. After all if Arnold and Danny can have a baby those who “believe” so strongly should be able to also.

If a couple divorces and he wants to come back for a quickie without her permission that is called rape and he should go to jail. Permission is a real time thing, not forever. So, if he wants to contiune using her reproductive organs on behalf of his sacred sperm without her permission it is still rape.

“Support” is one thing that certainly needs an overhaul in our court system.

BTW, I am aware of one case where the father has the kid and the mother pays support. She volunteered to help out so the kid could have things a little better. The courts had absolutely nothing to do with the way things are set up. They are actually quite friendly. They just shouldn’t be married and they realize that.

Rob

Actually, Wayne…it’s started in the 50′s…or maybe even right after WWII.

It was Conservative FEAR that led to the American government trying to stay ahead of the Soviets, through power and control.

Thus began the arms race, but also, the birth of the CIA, who was so busy trying to control every other friggin’ country on earth, that they let their own country go steadily down the crapper, and caused further problems as well.

That is why we now have so-called “terrorism”.

The far-right neo-con ‘hawks’ have done such a great job of pissing just about everybody else off, that now the militant people of those other countries are trying to send a message to the American government.

It’s a rather simple, two-word message…and the second word of it is ‘OFF’.

I’ll let you guess the first word.

I’ll bet you thought about Fire trUCKS when you a kid and maybe even thought it was funny.

I can see some of your ideas might (they really aren’t clear so I’m not sure) have a shred of validity but you need some facts and less random noise.

Rob

Dogma-Free, I am just telling you whe it started in our area. It may have started in some areas of the country before the 60′s, I was in school in the 50′s and we did not have any illegal drugs in our area. Zilch, not any, period. It started in our area some time doing the Vietnam War. The claim, which I cannot substantiate, was that the GI’s were binging it back fom Vietnam.

Wayne says: “The claim, which I cannot substantiate, was that the GI’s were binging it back fom Vietnam.”

Some did come home addicts. They might bring a supply for a week or two, but eventually that would run out and they would want more.

Wayne, the support structure was there for addicts. You just weren’t aware of it.

They either found that supply or cleaned up their act.

Rob

You couldn’t be more wrong. God DID create EVERYTHING, including you. Because YOU have removed God from your life, doesn’t mean everyone else has. BTW, you’ll soon learn how WRONG you’ve been.

If you say so, for you.

For me… Just leave me alone. If there is a god you believe in I’ll discuss issues with him directly. If there isn’t you were wrong and are completely lost.

Rob

God won’t be “discussing” anything with you. Nor will He hear your argumnents or justifications. Too bad you think so highly of yourself. From what info I can gather from most atheists, they don’t have a god. But, that’s just delusion and denial they use on themselves: THEY ARE THEIR OWN GODS.

“From what info I can gather from most atheists, they don’t have a god.”

Well, something we agree on. That is my understanding of atheists also.

“But, that’s just delusion and denial they use on themselves: THEY ARE THEIR OWN GODS.”

I doubt that your assessment of them is worth much. BTW, with you telling us all about what YOUR god wants did he ever really say to someone that abortion is wrong or are you trying to substitute yourself for that christian god? I haven’t heard himm say such a thing.

After all, when it is all said and done with that transmogrification thing christians ain’t nothing but a bunch of ritualistic cannibals. Oops, let me correct myself, the bread and wine actually TURN INTO the body and blood… That makes it real.

Rob

Actually, Robert Smith…I was fortunate enough to meet God.

He lives in Cleveland, and he’s a petty, mean, old man, who shouts at stop signs and telephone poles.

Plus, he dresses funny, reeks of urine, and wears a tin foil hat.

Hallelujah.

Dogma, I’ve actually met someone in a tin foil hat too. Her martian boy friend, althoug none of us could see him except her, was glad to meet us.

Rob

http://www.infowars.com/atf-plans-gun-registration-in-border-states/

Can you say unconstitutional?That will not fly in this state as long as Jan Brewer is guv.We voted on this very issue and its not gunna happen period.

But James I will respond to you…NO I absolutely do NOT believe my rights should be infringed upon, but I will also call out Obama’s dismantel of OUR RIGHTS!

From Teresa: ” I absolutely do NOT believe my rights should be infringed upon,”

But you sure are willing to sentence a woman to 9 months of YOUR will if she has sex you don’t approve of.

You sure are willing to deny the persuit of happiness through pot.

You sure willing to deny Rostifarians THEIR religious chemical (THC) while approve of the christian drug, alcohol.

You sure are willing to deny American Indians their drug of choice payote.

Don’t demand “your” special rights until you are willing to give ALL Americans their freedom.

BTW, that “right to life” is a lie everytine you deny health care to another American.

BTW, I don’t think you are christian. I think you are abusing a perfectly good religion to your own selfish ends.

Rob

Robert, sometimes your childishness even amazes me. I DO NOT DENY ANYONE the right to do anything. People CHOOSE to do what they want and will be accountable for THEIR OWN actions! What I do wish is that people would follow the Constitution, something in which you obviously care nothing for. As far as my religion, like I said I am accountable to OUR God for MY actions and YES Robert I am a Christian and proud of it. What you fail to realize is that OUR God is stronger than Your Chosen and our government and this NWO you obviously push for.

Really?

So you will allow abortion to remain safe and legal?

What about pot for the Rosterfarians?

What about pot for health users?

Rob

Robert….is there something in my response to you that you did Not understand??? Do I need to repeat myself??? The Constitution you care nothing for is being broken by your chosen and congress….I want that to change, (wishful thinking but it IS THE LAW remember). As far as what you or others CHOOSE to do….WE WILL ALL be accountable by law and GOD. That is the problem I fear, those whom feel superior and Above mans laws feel they will never be held accountable. Do you feel that way Robert? The day of reckoning is coming Robert, for all of us and yes we WILL stand judgement for our actions.

taresa says: “The day of reckoning is coming Robert, for all of us and yes we WILL stand judgement for our actions.”

I don’t believe your god is real so I don’t worry about it. I need more than your word as evidence. Since I can’t see him, I can’t hear him, and I don’t like some of the things christians claim he has done (raping a virgin, killing first sons) I just can’t get into it.

Rob

Yes to all of your questions….so long as all are paid for by the person using the services…Pay for your own abortion, your own weed, your own medication….As long as you do those things….. I have no problem with it.
Just don’t expect me to subsidize it or approve of it in any way…..

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Robert A. Heinlein

robert says: I don’t believe your god is real so I don’t worry about it. I need more than your word as evidence. Since I can’t see him, I can’t hear him, and I don’t like some of the things christians claim he has done (raping a virgin, killing first sons) I just can’t get into it.
*************************************************
Tell me Robert, can you see the air? You do know it’s there though right? First of all Robert I feel sorry for you if this is what you think of God. NO MAN, Christian or not can give you peace w/God. That is for YOU to find. You expect everyone to research the facts of man but you are so ignorant to Gods will and word, you blame everyone around you for your ignorance of God. You purposely try to discourage people of faith yet when someone mentions God you act as if they are shoving it down your throat. If you choose to be atheist, that’s your choice…but I would encourage you to at least put blame where it belongs Robert, on yourself, not others.

Taresa asks: “Tell me Robert, can you see the air?”

(Puff) There it is. You can see it anytime you see someone smoking, etc. I could feel it under myself as I plumited to Earth during free fall. Air is real.

I know it’s there. I’ve seen it, I’ve felt it, I’ve even measured the weight of it as I go up and down in an airplane. I also hear sounds because it is there. From the sweetest guitar to the harshest shrill of an abortion protester.

T says: “First of all Robert I feel sorry for you if this is what you think of God.”

Just that nasty version of the christian god that rapes vergins, blows up cities, and inspires his followers to shoot doctors.

“NO MAN, Christian or not can give you peace w/God.”

So? I don’t need or want such a god around me, just as I don’t want any other rapist around me. And for his followers, because of that transsubstantion thing I don’t want his canabals around me either.

“That is for YOU to find.”

Don’t care. Ain’t looking. And please don’t include me in your religion in any way. I consider that to be spiritual rape. If your religion isn’t strong enough to get along without me tough cookies. I’m not available.

“You expect everyone to research the facts of man but you are so ignorant to Gods will and word, you blame everyone around you for your ignorance of God.”

Would someone let me know when she is making some kind of sense? You have absolutely NO idea what I expect. Quit trying to speak for me. As for the above you are lying.

“You purposely try to discourage people of faith yet when someone mentions God you act as if they are shoving it down your throat.”

Let’s see…

You prey for my soul.

You want me to “learn”.

You want me to accept that your god is more powerful than anything when in fact I can move my keyboard to anywhere I want it to be, yet your god can’t even push one key.

You claim that America is your personal god’s place. It ain’t. It was born of the blood of those who had a vision. Where was your god? Oh, that’s right the Brits had him on their side too.

“If you choose to be atheist,”

I don’t. Why are you projecting what you believe about me? Let’s see, you believe in god, and you believe I’m an atheist. Bzzzz, at least one wrong for sure. Maybe the other one too?

I blame you for hijacking America for you and your christian cronies who want take freedoms away from the rest of us. That’s un-American. Go off and believe what you want, leave the rest of us alone.

Rob

Robert,
first of all, you have to penetrate to rape! What don’t you understand about immaculate conception? God never touched the Virgin Mary! don’t believe it’s possible? Try not putting human limitations on a being that created this world!! Were you there when America planted the American flag on the moon? Why do you believe that? you saw pictures? I can show you pictures of a half man half goat, but that doesn’t mean it exhists! you can’t see love or pain, but believe me, I know they exhist! I feel sorry for you when the judgement day DOES come as you are going to have to attone for your denial of God!

Joe says: “God never touched the Virgin Mary! don’t believe it’s possible?”

She got pregnant by him. Using her reproductinve organs withut her permission is rape.

“Were you there when America planted the American flag on the moon?”

Naval Photographic Center. When the film arrived it was my job to make the internegatives and get prints out fast.

“Why do you believe that? you saw pictures?”

I PRINTED the pictures.

“I can show you pictures of a half man half goat, but that doesn’t mean it exhists!”

Don’t know about that but if you google “Oberon Zell & Ringling & Unicorns” you can see pictures of them. You can also visit them at the circus.

Posted: “you can’t see love or pain, but believe me, I know they exhist!”

Actually they are finding amazing things on MRIs these days. In a few more years I suspect they will have hard evidence.

“I feel sorry for you when the judgement day DOES come as you are going to have to attone for your denial of God!”

Don’t worry about me. Worry about yourself. All that hate and oppression. ROFL, what if your god is really about love and caring and those who hate gays, etc. just got it wrong. ROFL, that’s going to be a fun one to watch.

Rob

Thought I remembered that one and I looked it up to confirm it. Found it!

“I am free…”

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress. The context is Prof. Bernardo de la Paz speaking to Wyoming Knott.

Rob

“She got pregnant by him. Using her reproductinve organs withut her permission is rape.”

But Mary gave her permission. “And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” Luke 1:38

Teresa, that wasn’t what I asked. I asked if you believe the Second Amendment’s restriction “shall not be infringed” applies to the federal government?

James, No…the Federal gov. “should not infringe” restriction upon our 2nd Amendment

Teresa, You’re missing the point. The Second Amendment isn’t the source of our right, the right to bear arms in unlienable, it isn’t dependent on any document for its existence. The amendment simply says “the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Do you believe that restriction, against infringing on the right, applies to the federal government?

Really wayne?

Will you stop the assault to keep women pregnant when they don’t want to be?

Rob

Robert, since your the expert in everything under the sun, I guess there is not any use in anyone else expessing their opinion, or expertise with you. Regardless of what it is, you are going to have you own belief, and I have mine.

BINGO!

And in America land of the free we shouldn’t be imposing those beliefs upon another.

Rob

Then, robert, why are you trying to instill your belief in abortion on me? Even to the point of wanting my tax money to fund them? go write another check dude!!

So Robert abortion again? Why dont you get it off your chest man? Come on you know it and we know it there is an issue there so spill it!

Joe asks: “robert, why are you trying to instill your belief in abortion on me…”

I’m not. I’m trying to point out that there are different points of view that other Americans have.

Others think that it is a 9 month assault to keep a woman pregnant against her will.

Others think that there are many valid medical reasons to abort early and that such a decision should be made by the woman and her doctor, NOT the guy at the gas staion because he “believes,” not a priest, not a cop, and not someone from the government.

Others think that it ain’t a baaaaaaaabbbbbbeeeeee and it doesn’t matter what she does with it until it is born and others can take care of it.

Others have their own personal beliefs like Catholics for a Free choice, but understand that others believe differently outside their faith.

Rob

robert,
And there are still others, some in government that believe a woman should be able to kill their kid up to age 3, but that doesn’t make it right!!

From JoeH.: “And there are still others, some in government that believe a woman should be able to kill their kid up to age 3, but that doesn’t make it right!!”

Wrong.

If she is carring it, particularly during the first trimester when most abortions occur, she is the ONLY person who can carry it if she chooses.

Later in the pregnancy it becoms more debatable but the later the abortion usually the more the medical reason becomes valid. Almost 100% of later term abortions are of a WANTED pregnancy where something has gone wrong. Certainly the anti-abortion mongers want to cite the few horror stories, but thousands of women have had their very lives saved by a later term abortion.

Anyhow, AFTER it is born THEN someone else from society can take care of it. That is YOUR choice. She doesn’t have to do anything.

Then society’s rules kick in.

It’s as simple as that.

Rob

Your rationalizations are just that: rationalizations. If a woman wants to have sex, far be it from me to say anything about that. BUT, if she has UNprotected sex and there are results, such as pregnancy, then my voice will be heard. Everyone pays a price for the things they do in this life. It’s not my problem, financial or otherwise to pay for someone else’s “mistakes”. With sex education as it is, in schools, I find it difficult to beleive that anyone would have UNprotected sex, and then say “I didn’t know I could get pregnant.” Additionally, I see you don’t say anything about the young men who contribute to this predicament. Abortion is WRONG. Abortion as a means of birth control is even MORE WRONG.

YOU think it is wrong ValDM. I don’t. It’s a simple medical procedure that fixes an accident.

In America anyone is entitled to fix a mistake or accident. To not allow that is un-American.

BTW, why are you advocating allowing another (your argument) “person” to take all they need from a woman?

If someone comes to a party at my house and decide to stay for nine months and take all they need from me I’m going to seek the aid of the local constible to remove them from my home.

Why would a woman’s body be any different? Can’t she decide who gets to be inside her and who doesn’t?

Rob

And now you ASSume that only women having *UNprotected* sex are getting pregnant.

So…condoms never break?

All forms of birth control are infallible?

If a woman…or even a young girl…gets raped, is it HER OWN FAULT for not asking the rapist to put on a condom first, before he penetrates her?

And while we’re throwing around the whole ‘god’ thing…how did we ever come to the ASSumption that there is only ONE god?

Because a book written by men WHO COLLECT MONEY FROM YOU IN *HIS* NAME, decided to tell you all that…??

Didn’t the Indians have many gods? You know, for the stuff they didn’t really understand too…like lightening, and/or rain…

Didn’t the Greeks have many gods?

Didn’t the Pagans?

And in fact, weren’t many of the tales/fabrications of the bible, borrowed from other religions?

But yours is the *one true god*, and all the others are just make-believe…??

Riiiiiiiiiight.

“Didn’t the Pagans?”

Don’t the Pagans. They are still around and healthy.

MOF it is a growing religion.

Arlington Cemetary just accepted the Wiccan Pentical as acceptable for stones.

Rob

I guess one can wonder how they got pregnant in the first place in this day and age if they didn’t want to be pregnant – And I’m not talking about rape victims they didn’t have a choice in the matter.

Fortunately women in America do have a CHOICE in the fatter to fix a mistake or accident.

After all, won’t your god judge anyhow? Why should YOU mess with her free choice? She may not worship your god.

Rob

I don’t recall bringing God into this discussion. I do think that with there being so many of these “mistakes” folks ought to have figured it out in the last 30 plus years that abortion is not another word for birth control which it has sadly become. Perhaps the ease of obtaining an abortion has lessened personal responsibility.

libertytrain says: “Perhaps the ease of obtaining an abortion has lessened personal responsibility.”

Actually it is Planned Parenthood that has prevented more abortions than any other organization. They talk about birth control way more than some crazy schools and religious organizations and their abstinance. We all know how that worked out for Sara’s kid, don’t we.

Rob

What’s wrong with her child. That she gave birth instead of opting for an abortion? Sorry don’t follow your logic and fortunately I don’t need to.

Sex rather than abstinance. Follow along, you will catch on eventually, maybe.

Rob

So far the left went in pointing fingers at her dastardly deed that I believe if Hawthorne were writing today, he would have used the name Bristol Palin instead of Hester Prynne to symbolize his heroine.
“It may serve, let us hope, to symbolize some sweet moral blossom that may be found along the track, or relieve the darkening close of a tale of human frailty and sorrow.”

you talk as though these woman didnt know what they were getting into…robert it is high time every individual in this country to be accountable for thier on actions and deal with the choices they take..i dont need govt telling me how to solve my own problems..or to make choices for me..i do it myself and take full responsibilty..jd

Jim says: “i dont need govt telling me how to solve my own problems”

And in America we don’t need our government forcing women to remain pregnant against their wishes.

We DO have an example of when government gets involved in pregnancies. It’s called China where abortion is heavily encouraged.

What if someone in America after you got the govenment invovled in keeping women pregnant decided that the shouldn’t be pregnant.

The best solution is to keep government out of abortion, except to assure that it is safe just like any other medical procedure.

Rob

Jim, save your breath in trying to talk to Robert. He isn’t thinking too clearly. He has apparently had to much wacky weed. You might as well go some where and find yourself a mighty oak tree and talk to its nuts hanging on the tree. You will learn just as much.

Hi wayne!

I see you’ve gotten puffing your “experience” off your chest and now you are offering personal attacks.

Kinda demonstrates how bankrupt your “arguments” about drugs are.

Been to the LEAP sight yet? They are at: http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
Here is one of their articles: “NEW FBI NUMBERS SHOW FAILURE OF “WAR ON DRUGS”
WASHINGTON, D.C. — A group of police and judges who want to legalize drugs pointed to new FBI numbers released today as evidence that the “war on drugs” is a failure that can never be won. The data, from the FBI’s “Crime in the United States” report, shows that in 2008 there were 1,702,537 arrests for drug law violations, or one drug arrest every 18 seconds.

“In our current economic climate, we simply cannot afford to keep arresting more than three people every minute in the failed ‘war on drugs,’” said Jack Cole, a retired undercover narcotics detective who now heads the group Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP). “Plus, if we legalized and taxed drug sales, we could actually create new revenue in addition to the money we’d save from ending the cruel policy of arresting users.”

Rob

Hey wayne, I see you are trying to offer a fact.

Check this out: “Bush had a total of 36 positions (many temporary) filled by a total of 46 different individuals over the years, of which 21 were confirmed by the U.S. Senate.”

That’s from: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_czars_did_President_George_W_Bush_appoint

Did you know that some of Obama’s “Czars” have been mandated by Congress too?

BTW, why were less than half of Bush’s appointments for Czars confirmed by the Senate?

Rob

independant,
Amen! I bought my 9MM last year after about 4or 5 years of thought. I don’t have an I-phone and I don’t have a kindle, I (gasp) read books! I happen to like the feel of the paper between my fingers as I read! I just bought this lap top after my other went too far bad to be worth fixing!

Joe whats a kindle?

Dan az,
i only know because I seen them advertised on TV as my kids watch!

It is for reading booksg. You download them, I believe from Amazon, and store them on the kindle to read them at your leisure. My daughters have them.

Yes, she’s FAR-right…

ogma,
In the twenties the gangs killed hundreds of people without firing a shot! know how they did it? with an ice pick!!! This mindless jerk could have killed several the same way by walking up, shaking hands and stabbing! he could have killed two or three before anybody would have reacted! I suggest you get a clue!!!

That pick idea has a point…

Rob

IF the right decides to have a “war on crazies” they will have on trouble puttnig a bunch of people away. They already have over a MILLION “driggies” put away. The best guess I’ve seen is that about 15% (that’s only a guess if someone has solid information I’d appreciate it) anyhow… 15% are actually criminals who should be there.

The rest are kids and adults who got caught up in the police web. One might want to look at the life of Tim Allen and see how “Tool Time” was almost killed before the first episode. All because of a drug bust.

Tommy Chong was busted and spent a couple of years in jail for selling glass.

Montel Williams was busted for having a pipe.

Note, those were for drugs but drug stuff.

Rob

Shucks wayne, what a concept…

The people get the lawmakers and courts that they want.

What part of “We the PEOPLE” don’t you get?

Rob

Robert. good golly, it must be nice to know everything there is to know. I’ll bet you so smart you work on your televisions, do you own mechanic work. and program you own computer. How many years did it take for you to get all this knowledge?

Wayne, you may be onto something. It is a very strong possibility da Vinci has been booted off the list of number one genius of all time. Oh lamentable day.

You would win that bet wayne.

Rob

Bingo, Bob.

Wayn appears to be appears to be resentful of those of us who can be self sustaining and have the knowledge to get things done.

In the last year I’ve replaced some of the power supply caps (because of the capicitor plague) on a Samsung big screen and the CFLs on a Sony screen. Although it takes a steady hand to do the soldering it isn’t particularly complicated. BTW, I’m also a Ham.

Car stuff… My my. I spent my youth part time at a local Sunoco station where I learned a bunch of stuff. I helped with a Corvair into a VW engine swap, helped on a Jag into an Austin Healy engine swap. I bought my own AH BN-6 and converted it to 12 v. myself. When I graduated from High School I went to work for a Mercades dealership. I did that for part of a summer not getting much farther than “hold this” for the real mechanics, and changing oil once in awhile. I went to Nationals (drag racing)at Indianapolis with a friend of mine as part of his pit crew. We ran H-Automatic in a Comet. We were beat by a girl in a Chevy Nomad. With my newer cars I’ve let the dealer do most stuff but I still dabble most recently changing the clutch (not much in the way of propriatary electronics there) in my ’86 4-Runner several years ago. I just wanted to see if I could still do it.

I have to admit that I’m not much on programing. I took a year of Pascal in college. The professor told me I was brilliant at the top-down concepts but with dyslexia I would never make it as a programmer. Too bad, it was really fun figuring out just what the problem was.

Rob

Robert, this is one where I am actually going to agree with you. You know, this does not happen very often. You cannot arrest a person until they commit a crime. Being nuts is not a crime. A lot of these insane people never commit crimes.

wayne says: “A lot of these insane people never commit crimes.”

MOF these kinds of extreme crimes are very rare.

What about getting them into treatment BEFORE they go off the deep end? We have the knowledge that if it is concluded that they are a danger to themselves or others. And we know how to put them away for treatment if due process determins that they are a danger.

The problem with that is that Reagan emptied the places where folks were and it is almost impossible to find a “bed” (place) for treatment these days. Now they are in jail.

We need to spend money on these people BEFORE they go off. Unfortunately that immediately gets labled “social work” and gets deep sixed by the right long before anyone can get any treatment.

I suspect it would be way less expensive in the long run to get folks productive rather than the horror we saw Saturday.

Rather than putting ALL our chickens (actually cash) into law enforcement that has failed in the war on drugs, why not go to really end the violence by putting the dealers out of business. Let people grow pot in the back yard rather than dealers bringing it in from Mexico.

Then we can begin treatment.

BTW, the bogus claim is often made that pot is a “gateway drug.” It is, but it isn’t a gateway to higher drugs. I know folks who grow their own (medical in Calif.) and they aren’t seeking anything more than what they have. When pot is illegal it is a gateway to the PUSHER who has a vested interest in getting the kid hooked on something much worse. In countries where there are no pushers (where pot is mostly legal) the use of the harder drugs is much less than in America.

BTW, are you aware of LEAP? Go to: http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

I’m sure you will find active and retired law enforcement officers with as much credibility, experience, and passion for the law as you have there. They want to get rid of the prohibitions. Check it out.

Rob

“Eliminate the guns, and you eliminate the shooting of innocent people. End of story.”

If you have even one functioning brain cell you know that will not happen. If you could somehow remove every privately owned gun from America tomorrow the day after tomorrow the black market would be flooded by guns from outside the US plus guns being sold by or stolen from police and the military. 99% or more of these guns would end up in criminal’s hands while the rest of the population would be helpless to defend themselves.

Independant,
This is proven by the fact that in all big cities you can go to town, buy an illegal gun, almost any time!

Dogma says: “But he didn’t use a rock, or even several rocks…now did he?”

But look at what David did with a single rock if you believe the story.

How’s that for butting their “but” (as in “however”) in a sling?

Rob

I blame this on the available drugs in our society, and the way this deranged man was raised by his family. It is obvious that some folks can handle illegal drugs better than others. We never know which folks are going to turn out the way this man did. A person like this should have been institutionalized instead of being out in society. Take the guns away from the insane and the criminals, but leave the rest of us with firearms so we can protect ourselves from the nuts. Let’s vote against the Congress Members who want to take our firearms away fro us. Guns don’t kill people, its the nuts that kills people using guns Those who do this insane act should have been in an insane society anyway. Lock all the nuts up.

Wayne… I agree with most your post, but I hadn’t heard that he was on drugs or that he came from a ‘bad’ family. It is a sad tragedy and guns didn’t kill these people, a warped individual did. He only used a gun to do it. He could have used different methods; he could have used a car to run over people. It can be as deadly as a gun. I have had relatives killed in car accidents, but none by a gun.

Robin, I heard on the news, I hope it’s accrate that he did se illegal drugs. I can tell you from experience that the majority of folks like this that commits these heinous

Sorry Robin, I did not mean to end that post so quickly. From my experience, most of the folks I dealt with while I was in law enforcement in the seventies and eighties that committed crimes were in the drug culture. I started in law enforcement in the early sixties. Back in the early sixties our area did not have an illegal drug problem. We had very little crime. Of course, you are always going to have a certain element of people who committ crime without the use of drugs. Mostly it was due to the the environment they were raised in. The crime rate soared once the illegal drugs came into use in our area. Working with many people committing crimes, I can assure you that a lot of these folks came from bad home with bad parenting. I worked with this for around thirty years. I do believe that I have a good handle on what causes crime. I came from a home with good parents who raised us, and taught us right from wrong. If a child is raised in a good home, and his parents teach him the way my parents did, I don’t know how a child could do bad things. First of all you have to have a conscious. Having a conscious, knowing when your doing something wrong, comes from good parenting. End….

He was not allowed to join the Army as he failed the drug test.
And, the sheriff did call the family “disfunctional.”

Waune, Wayne, Wayne…. (sigh) You really don’t get it, do you?

You posted: “If a child is raised in a good home, and his parents teach him the way my parents did, I don’t know how a child could do bad things.”

I’m sure that Mr. & Mrs. Dich Chaney might disagree with you when the found out that they daughter was gay. No, I’m not comparing being criminal to being gay but it is an example of how things can go way differently than parents want them to.

You said drugs cause crime. Bzzzzz, WRONG.

In fact MONEY and POWER are what are at the root of crime. Take the money out of drugs and nobody will care about them except the user. Remember with alcohol there were machine gun battles in the streets. Alcohol is legal and those battles pretty much stopped. It wasn’t until the drug trade kicked in that the violence became common.

Consider: If there is no money involved in pot (it’s a weed that can be grown in the back yard) how much violence would there really be?

Rob

Robin, people interviewed who knew this guy all said he was a pothead.
I believe I read somewhere that he suffered from insomnia, and probably took all kinds of psychotropic drugs like sleeping pills, prescribed to him by his friendly drug pushing allopathic physician. It has been shown that people under the influence of these pharmaceuticals cannot distinguish between reality and being asleep. Look at the people who get up and drive a car or gain lots of weight from getting up and eating in the middle of the night, yet they are actually asleep from sleeping medications prescribed to them and have no memory of doing these things. It has happened to two people that I know personally.

As far as his parents, I have to ask what were they thinking? They were contacted by the community college their son was attending a few months ago, and informed in person at a conference with school officials that their son scared students and teachers because it was presumed that he was mentally ill and needed psychiatric help. He was kicked out of school and the parents were told he could not return until he was given a clean bill of health from a licensed mental health care professional.

Just like the Columbine murderers (both on anti-depressant psychotropic drugs), where were the parents when these kids were making bombs and hiding firearms in the garage?

They interviewed some family friends on the news today and they said they saw him at least a hundred times as a kid and he was not like this. they said he came from a very good family and he was treated well! there are times when no matter what you do, the offspring turn out bad! Quit trying to put the blame off this jerk! PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY! There is no excuse for his actions so don’t look for one!

wayne says: “I blame this on the available drugs in our society,”

Are you willing to make the worst drug of all illegal, alcohol? Oops we tried that and all America got out of it was organized crime.

Why don’t you learn from the past and decriminalize pot like alcohol is? THEN we won’t have the organized crime and pushers moving folks to more dangerous substances.

Rob

Robert, what kind of a society would we have if we let people do anything they wanted to do. Now come on, you can’t really mean this, do you? We have child molesters, like NAMBLA (North American Man boy love association) we have thieves, we have cold blooded killers out there that enjoys what their doing. Bob, I have experience working with these criminal elements. What experience do you have giving others information on this?

Robert, if we legalize pot, then what next, LSD? Maybe we could legalize everything, and let people do what ever they want to do. I want to live in a civilized society where they are some rules. People use LSD because they want to use it. From what your saying you would not care. These kind of people are not only dangerous to themselves, but are dangerous to everyone aound them. I have seen the result of folks who use drugs, and it is not pretty. How many suicides have you investigated, how many domestic calls have you investigated, how many murders have you investigated. A lot of this is caused by a legal drug called alcohol and you want to legalize yet another drug in society. We do not need any more mind altering drugs. We have too many legalized now. People who has to use these mind altering drugs for a high has problems, believe me.

Let’s watch wayne go off the deep end.

From wayne who asks: “Robert, what kind of a society would we have if we let people do anything they wanted to do.”

Used to be that way. Then societies built themselves, some came through some fell. But I imagine you want to push the extremes, like someone saying that a little nuke in the back yard is fine for home defense. Take my word for it, it isn’t.

“Now come on, you can’t really mean this, do you?”

No I don’t, but you seem to be doing a fine job if making stuff up. Let’s see where it goes.

“We have child molesters, like NAMBLA (North American Man boy love association)”

Yup, supported by some of the finest catholic priests around. Molesters are criminals. It’s that simple. Why? Because of a universal thing called a “social contract.” You don’t kill me or my kin and I won’t kill you or your kin. We agree? Good, it’s a social contract. No god, no police, nothing except that we agree. In America we call them laws.

In America we also have some responsibilitys in those cases some in our society need protection. We all agree that we will potect kids, even from priests. It’s that simple.

“we have thieves,”

Review “social contract”. And if there are those in society who we don’t think should be stolen from then we can help them out. Rather than just agreeing between you and me that we won’t steal from each other we agree that stealing in general is bad for the society. Then to make sure that works out we create a body to enforce that. We call that body police, sharrif, martial, etc.

“we have cold blooded killers out there that enjoys what their doing.”

We sure do. I enjoy Criminal Minds and Dexter as entertainment. And in that context it can be concluded that they are sick minds that need treatment because they have violated the social contracts and have no respect for the group, society. It would be nice if we could help them be productive. I really don’t like the solution of shooting them just after they kill someone else. Let’s see what we can do before.

“Bob, I have experience working with these criminal elements. What experience do you have giving others information on this?

Your “experience” doesn’t reflect reality. Your enthusiasm to make grand claims to comdemn what isn’t your agenda builds some very false “arguments.”

Situation: Kid on pot with a few other kids. How many had guns?

First, I don’t approve of kids on pot. Nor do I like kids on booze.

However kids in most of Europe have grown up with alcohol at the table and drink it regularly all their lives. Europe does NOT have the same degree of alcohol problems that America does. I suspect that the same would be for pot.

The responsible thing for our American society would be for parents to introduce kids to dangerous (alcohol and pot) substances as each reaches age appropriate levels to understand what is going on, the effects, and how a responsable person should handle it.

If they had grown it in the back yard rather than going to a street corner that has been faught over it would be a lot less violent.

And parents have the leeway to bring their kids up they way they want to. How can you deny parents the ability to teach their kids they way they want?

BTW, because some parents won’t be responsible doesn’t mean that all parents won’t be responsible. Like has been said around here several times: Why should the majority be penalized in freedom for the actions of a few?

Rob

“Robert, what kind of a society would we have if we let people do anything they wanted to do.”

Constitutional?

Under the Constitution, that is precisely what we are supposed to be able to do…as long as we do not infringe upon the “rights” of another person. What a person does with their own body, in or on the privacy of their own property is nobody else’s business….Period!

The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.
Robert A. Heinlein

Hmmm, was that Jubal Hershaw or Lazerous Long? It’s been awhile.

Rob

Wyane,

I agree with Robert, what he has posted in LOGICAL. I can say with out question that POT had nothing to do with this persons actions.

That being said, Wyane, perhaps you should read the Constitution and Bill of Rights again. This time understand that we were set up on the very edge of {Anarchy,} just enough control that keeps us from self destruction as a nation.
Thus Freedom is just that a vast amount of “Responsibility.”
When Government makes laws that act as controls over its citizens lifes we end up the way we are now $14 Trillon in debt, Crime in the halls of congress at all time highs, people asking the Government to fix problems the government created, by the citizens being apathetic and not wanting to take Responsibility for themselfs.
Kinda like there should be a LAW, {ever hear mindless remark that?}

Now let me be clear the young man was troubled all his life he is 22 years old so he would fit the time line of a young person who would have been perscribed Psychotropic drugs in school.
His actions clearly indicate that. His behavior is what happens to persons who go outward as noted in the Other shootings by school kids, rather than inverted self destruction.

Just so you better understand why I say this 1 out of every 3 kids is on Psychotropic drugs mandadted by the “DOE” to all states who take “Federal aid” to keep the children under control.
This has been going on now since 1990, this alone would have placed this young man right in the center of this ongoing School druging policy.
Also suicide rates of these kids have gone up nearly 70% since 1990, thus the inward form of self destruction.

Again by all outward signs as my intel guy in Tucson tells me this kid was a problem kid, his legal team have had his records pulled, so I am sure that will be his defence of what will open the whole can of worms about how YOUR Government Drugs school kids to keep them under control.

I say this to you there is far more here than meets the public eye, and much of it will be held back from public view so as to keep the School kids druged.
Again POT is not the reason, thats so bloody absurd to even bring it up.
Where as psychotropic drugs retard the brains growth, thus making kids seem like they are not bright and or not quite all there and do what seems like mindless things to the casual observer who can’t grasp what these Hard Core Mind altering drugs can do.

wayne says: “People use LSD because they want to use it.”

Yup. From what I’ve heard it can be quite interesting. The fact is that there were plenty of theraputic uses for it.

Cary Grant was quite open about his experience. He wrote about it at http://www.futurehi.net/archives/000693.html: “And so, together with a group of other interested Californians — doctors, writers, scientists and artists — and the encouragement of Betsy, who was interested herself, I underwent a series of controlled experiments with Lysergic Acid, a hallucinogenic chemical or drug known as LSD 25. Experiment is perhaps a misleading word; to most people it signifies patronization and objectivity. For my part I anxiously awaited their personal benefits that could be derived from the experiences, and was quite willing to be less than objective. Any man who experiments with something that cannot benefit himself, or add to his happiness, and that of his fellow man in turn, is a fool and a menace to society. I’ve heard that a man here and there died during LSD25 sessions; but then I’ve heard that men died during poker games and while watching horse racing; but that didn’t seem to stop such occupations…”

Those theraputic uses are LOST because of simple misinformation and government going to the “war on drugs.”

Way presumes: “From what your saying you would not care.”

Generally I don’t care. It’s THEIR business what they do, not mine.

“These kind of people are not only dangerous to themselves, but are dangerous to everyone aound them.”

Sometimes that is true.

For such experements there can be a certified “trip meister” on duty to assure that people don’t hurt themselves or others. It’s that simple. At least make it available in a hospital setting. For amny it was useful.

BTW, it isn’t that difficult to make. If the demand picked up it would be on the market quickly.

Rob

You want to legalize those mind altering drugs?

I would be fine with it on one CONDITION. You must enforce the laws! If they break the law “under the influence” of drugs, then they must be punished just AS IF they were as sane as you think you are. If you are going to allow them to get a lighter sentence due to being “under the influence” (such as sending them for treatment instead of jail), then I stand by Wayne. For if they get special treatment for violence under the influence of drugs, then there must be something about the drugs that increase their likely criminal behavior. For surely the drugs are mind altering substances or they are not. Either they are safe, or they are not.

Why such a harsh stand? Well, if you want to give everyone the right to these substances, then I am actually for you. And you are right that as long as they don’t infringe upon someone else’s life and properties that what they do is their own business. So what is to discourage the use of potentially dangerous drugs? Overdose? Well, that doesn’t work with them being illegal. People still use the drugs despite that danger. Personal destruction? People still use the drugs despite that danger. Criminal incarceration? We’ll give them special sentences throwing them into rehab instead. I am not saying that mercy doesn’t have a place in society. What I am saying is that you are not doing any service to future drug users by making the results more pleasant for them.

Personally, I like what they do in some countries. They don’t have the age requirements and such that we for alcohol. But if you do have a DUI or other such incident with drunk driving, then you will lose your driver’s license for LIFE. In other words, they treat driving as the privilege it is–it is not a right to drive a car. So would you be willing to do similar to that extreme for people driving under the influence of mind altering drugs? If they hit another car, tree, or so forth while under the influence of any of the drugs you want to legalize, are you willing to mandate that they not be given the privilege to drive a car again for LIFE??? I suspect not. I suspect you want the rights we should give each other in this nation without really taking the responsibility for our choices. And that includes our responsibility to be willing to deny privileges (not to be confused with rights) to those who violate the rights of other people.

Don said: “I would be fine with it on one CONDITION. You must enforce the laws! If they break the law “under the influence” of drugs, then they must be punished just AS IF they were as sane as you think you are.”

I’m sorry. I thought that went without saying. You are most certainly correct.

But, please keep in mind the distinction between that and an undiagnosed condition. Then it’s off to treatment ASAP.

Rob

I had heard that the shooter was supposedly on pot. This is about as ludicrous as it gets. If he was, indeed, on pot, he would have been home vegging out, calm and relaxed. One thing that pot does not do is incite to ANYTHING !!

I would bet my bottom dollar that this individual was drugged all through school (the gold standard that ruins the kids’ brains) and was on or just coming off SSRIs when he shot all those people. This has been a very common theme with these individuals involved with such shootings.

Sadly there is much truth to what you post Ellen.

The issue is there are folks around here who want folks to proclaim themselves upright and correct when that doesn’t work. Mental illness is an ILLNESS and it isn’t “cured” by proclimation or will.

What is needed is universal health care to make sure those who need treatment have it available. But there are selfish folks around here who would rather shoot them when the cimmit a crime rather than prevent a crime, maybe get a productive person in society, and have peace.

Looks to me like selfishness power are running the right, not common sense. I wonder if that’s curable.

Rob

Ellen, I agree with you on this. A few on here will just not accept the truth of what these drugs, illegal and legal, does to the mind. I pity them. I have seen the results of what drugs does to the mind, and the violence it causes. Just one example, I seen a 17 year old college kid jump off of a three story building on a parking lot head first. It turned out that his parents knew that he had been using LSD since he was 13 years old. I know of many, many instance such as this. We have people on this forum wanting to compare these illegal drugs to alcohol. I don’t have to guess what these drugs does to our society. I have seen the results first hand.

Wayne says: “I have seen the results first hand.”

You’ve seen the results of the worst as their end game goes bad.

You didn’t see the majority who quietly enjoy a joint in front of the fireplace as part of a romantic evening. You didn’t see the athlete who unwinds from the physical strain with a joint. You didn’t see granny coping with authritus with a joint. You didn’t see a cancer patient coping with nausia and the thoughts of death with a joint. You didn’t see the bus driver settling in with some Spider Robinson with a joint on a Friday evening.

You really didn’t see anything except the exceptions.

Yes they are tragic. What society needs to learn is how to derail these express trains to self distruction with treatment and understanding, NOT going in with guns drawn, putting their faces in the dirt, and putting them in jail. If I ever faced something like that I suspect I might go to another level or two. Did you ever think that YOUR actions in dealing with the prohibition may have driven some of those people over the edge?

Rob

Wayne, I can appreciate your point of view, however, because you have seen repetitiously unfortunate and tragic examples of peoples inhumanity to each other and because many of those people where on a substance of some kind, (because the were in pain themselves of some kind)respectfully, your mind naturally comes to the false conclusion that it is the substance and we need to control theses substances and infringe on the rights of the MAJORITY because of a small fringe MINORITY. In this REPUBLIC neither the majority nor the minority has a right to violate anyone else’s rights as we a all sovereign individuals with INALIENABLE rights including to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness UNOBSTRUCTED by government so long as we do not violate anyone else’s rights. The only LEGITIMATE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT is one that PROTECTS the RIGHTS of INDIVIDUALS and the Sovereignty of our State from foreign enemies.What matters is how someone behaves and treats their fellow human beings and being personally accountable for when they violate someones else’s rights and that includes when you interfere with someones right to ingest whatever they want into their body. I do believe that you are well meaning, but you also seem unaware of the FACT that MOST people who ingest any kind of substance from alcohol to cannabis, etc, are law abiding good and decent people with a moral compass. For example George Washington grew and smoked cannabis. was he a bad guy? I Think Not. When a sick individual commits tyranny against a few people as bad and horrible as that is, when you then use that as reason to commit tyranny against an ENTIRE society that is a much much worse form of tyranny and a much greater crime believe it or not. From there you then force people to finance this war on drugs for example against their will which is taxation without representation which is also a much greater form of tyranny as it affects and damages many more people then these very unfortunate and tragic acts of insanity that directly affect only a few. Also, many of these people are actually suffering from pain of some kind and many times a lack of LOVE. I do agree with you that if this kid had at least one mature and devoted parent, friend, mentor,etc. that this very well may have been prevented. All around it is a tragedy and we should pray for and do what we can for those directly affected.

For Freedom247, when you drive a vehicle in an intoxicate state, by alcohol or an illegal drug, and by you intoxicated condtion you wipe out a complete family with you car, due to you intoxicatd condition, you have infringed on some else rights. Like I have tried to explain to you folks, I have seen the results of this first hand. I wasn’t born yesterday. I have had the experience in working with all kinds of people, under all conditons. I rest my case. Where does your experience come from, a book? Or have ou lived it like I did?

Hi Freedom,

I’ve seen proof that Jefferson smoked “hemp” along with some specific strains mentioned. I also know for sure that Washington grew hemp and was a successful distiller. That in fact was where much of his wealth came from. It is still at Mt. Vernon.

HOwever, I haven’t been able to get absolute proof he smoked, except through some indirect quotes from others. I’m sure he did because it was common at the time, but I just don’t have that “got it” really nailed down quote.

BTW, I’ve been to the George Washington Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, VA, and I’ve seen in George Washington’s own hand some of his writings. It was a powerful experience and I highly recommend it.

Rob

From Wayne: “when you drive a vehicle in an intoxicate state, by alcohol or an illegal drug, and by you intoxicated condtion…”

DUI is Illegal ALL the time. One can even be DUI on Contac (a legal cold medicine) in some enlightened jurisdictions. Even sleep apnea can get your license suspended until you undergo successful treatment. It isn’t the substance that is the problem it is DRIVING WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE.

I won’t go to the extreme of having them shot beside the road as has been reported from some countries but sometimes that idea does get more sympathy than I’d like to admit to most folks. Only sympathy. I can look at Playboy and still love my wife. We need to get them off the road.

Note the period at the end of “We need to get them off the road.” There it is again.

What I think will be most effective in this one aspect of our law enforcement is a very fast sure process that IF one is DUI they will be held accountable immediately.

First is the stop. A direct violation to pull someone over would be cool, but erratic driving is also a big clue. Video in the police car could easily document that Due Process at the site of the stop is correct. Then observe and record behavior, smell, horizontal gaze nystagmus test, Romberg Balance test, etc. There are a bunch of tests than can prove impairment.

If these are failed the car is towed to impound and the perp goes to a central point where a proper authority (Judge for example) is waiting. Immediately a blood test (by a qualified person) is taken to back-up the breathalyzer. If it proves to be above the limit there are NO excuses. Go to jail, do not collect $200. Immediate sentence. First offense is 7 days in jail. Call someone to take care of the kid(s) or feed the dog. Second offense 30 days. Third offense one year. Fourth offense two years and you are off the road for a minimum of 5 years of documented sobriety. (sometimes people do change) If you hurt others while DUI anyone steps one and two are deleted. The penalty goes up from there depending on the severity.

The one thing I would make as an exception would be an undiagnosed medical condition. If sleep apnea, diabetes, or a bazillion other conditions are already diagnosed it’s off to the slammer. It they ain’t it is off to immediate treatment. If a patient is under a doctor’s care they must be warned by the doctor that some scripts can have an impact on driving. If they MUST drive they must have time on the script to prove that it isn’t going to impact their driving. Programs are already in place for pilots.

One seminal change in our legal system would have to occur that lawyers in DUI situations would have to accept that they are officers of the court and that they are there to assure that the rules are followed, if the perp elects to have a lawyer. This idea of “get ‘em off the road no matter what” if they are DUI must have some common sense such that the really guilty have to get a time out.

That’s what I think about DUI.

Wayne continues: “Like I have tried to explain to you folks, I have seen the results of this first hand.”

There are lots of “results” that lots of folks have seen firsthand, and experienced. The issue isn’t the drugs or driving. The issue is combined drugs (or any bad influence) and driving.

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne… You say: “I have had the experience in working with all kinds of people, under all conditions. I rest my case.”

Anyone can be anyone they want in cyber-space. I could claim to be Bat Man or Super Man and you couldn’t argue against it. Please don’t claim they are any less fictional than that god that raped Mary and then turns into lunch.

And There’s More! “Where does your experience come from, a book? Or have ou lived it like I did?”

Experience isn’t needed. Common sense is what is needed. What you are doing with your “experience” is advocating oppression in America. That isn’t American. Do you really believe that sending an adult to jail for years and years is the right, or even christian, thing to do? For kids it’s flat out tragic.

If you want to find police as experienced as you are you can go to: http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

LEAP Statement of Principles
1. LEAP does not promote the use of drugs and is deeply concerned about the extent of drug abuse worldwide. LEAP is also deeply concerned with the destructive impact of violent drug gangs and cartels everywhere in the world. Neither problem is remedied by the current policy of drug prohibition. Indeed, drug abuse and gang violence flourish in a drug prohibition environment, just as they did during alcohol prohibition.

If you have more experience than they do…

Generally the war on drugs is lost and we need to try new ways to address the problem. My first suggestion is to remember that this is America. It used to be free until jack booted thugs started putting people in jail for pot. If you are unremorseful and proud of that you are part of the prohibition problem and not living the spirit of freedom in America because you are oppressing generations of people who wanted to do nothing but be happy. How can being happy be a sin? Yes, one needs to be responsible, but just for being happy means going to prison. That just ain’t American.

Rob

If they are in your district, keep them in mind the next time you vote.

Put a sock in it Dogma if you ever had a clue you lost it long ago.

Hey Dogma…

You posted: “you know, since your brains don’t currently have bullets lodged in them.”

Really? James Brady used to be part of the NRA. Then he got shot in the head and his wife got he brain damage.

I hear that the NRA is turning around a bit BTW. I quit before George Bush Sr. did. It was during the time when the extreme right took it over like they did the Boy Scouts of America. They screwed both organizations. The NRA seems to be turning around, the Scouts are still a hateful oroganization at the top but in the local ranks they seem to have figured it out in some locations.

Did you know that the NRA used to be one of the major souces for scholarships in America. Many schools had ranges. Mine did when I went to high school. I don’t know how many local public high schools have a range, swimming pool, and a planitarium but this one did. I was able to pick up an old Mosberg and a box of cartridges and shoot during some study halls and over luch sometimes. I’d police the brass and carry it back right through the lobby. Nobody thought boo about it.

Rob

Robert ,
where the hell do you get off calling the Boy scouts a hateful organization? Do you draw you opinion from their stance against homosexuals? If the is your rationale, better think again they are just exercising their rights to avoid the infiltration of a pathological lifestyle into their midst. I applaud them vigorously in their endeavors !!

And Bill is another hateful country heard from about gays.

I’ve heard of Scouts of Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640 (2000), was a case of the Supreme Court of the United States.

That decision made it so private organization is allowed, under certain criteria, to exclude a person from membership through their First Amendment right to freedom of association in spite of state antidiscrimination laws.

Essentially it gives BSA a license to exclude others who are “unclean.”

That has cost BSA dearly. Was it worth it to lose all those locations like court houses, some churches, schools, etc.? Suddenly BSA had to pay rent. And! They lost a bundle from United Way, and other organizations that used to support them. Of course without spaces being available suddenly urban locations were dumped. That left scouting generally to the “right” kids from suburbia. What a hateful thing to do.

Sheesh, Have you heard of Lord Baden-Powell and his collection of nude photographs of boys? Did you know he recorded his dreams? Allegedly most of them were about young boys. Of course he worked with them a lot as FOUNDER of the Boy Scouts. Powell enjoyed watching naked boys swim and got upset when swimming naked was banned. He disdained female nudity.
When Powell was staying overnight at the school with his old friend A. H. Tod… Oh my they both appreciated the pictures.

Speaking of “morality” did you know that William Dickson “W. D.” Boyce (June 16, 1858 – June 11, 1929) the founder of scouting in America was married 3 times? A rather racy life, including violence.

I’m simply waiting for some repressed “leader” to rape a few kids like went on in the catholic church to happen and the whole hateful thing is going to explode.

I’d like to thank some of the local Troups that haven’t put up with the nonsense and take kids who’s qualification is an interest in the skills the BSA has to offer. Whe it ain’t busy being hateful it really is an excellent organization. I suspect they will get over it like the NRA did.

Rob

Just ignore Robert, Bill. This man’s brains has been fried, most likel,y due to too many drugs. I have seen a lot of this type over the years and this is how they act. From now on I am ignoring him since he thinks he has all the answers.

There goes wayne again: “From now on I am ignoring him since he thinks he has all the answers.”

Looks to me like wayne is one of those cops who figured out that by stirring up fear in the American public about drugs he can continue to build his department empire, continue to put his jack boot on the necks of the American public who are just trying to have a little fun without hurting anyone, and then suck of the “retirement” spickit and brag about how much he kicked those poor druggies.

I’d be willing to place a bet that wayne was quite the bully in school.

Rob

My God, but you are a moron.
Move to Sweden for heaven’s sake…there’s a socialist outfit you can “rock” with.

I usually do not comment on this subject drugs, and the use thereof, but I have to aggree with Wayne, I to have seen the results of what drugs, and alcohol can do to the lives of the users, and sometimes the people that surround them. As Robert so eloquently state more than once he is for Law enforcement to get them off the street, but Big Brother can not be every where at once can he. I have a question for Robert: have you ever tried to contain a person on LSD, and if so what were the results, well maybe two questions: have you seen a person on LSD rip out thier own eyes, no Well when you have then tell me its OK for this to be used on your own property ? and where might that property be, most do not have enough money for the next fix, thats where the problem leads to, going someplace to get the money. Maybe Seden would be a good choice for you, or Holland, they are both pretty liberal, although I have heard they are having a little problem with Islamists.

Thank you for the post Claude. I knew there had to be some one on this forum that had some common sense that would agree with me. We certainly know that a few, not mentioning any name, of course, do not have any common sense. I also have seen the results of the use of all these drugs. I worked aound those fools that used these drugs. It would take me to long to describe all the blood and gore that I have seen over the years that was contributed to drugs. I don’t know how Robert got so smart. He has all the answers, but he does not share his experience, or his expetise, so therfore I am going to ignore any more of his post.

From Claud who claims like wayne to have see the end result of drugs: “I have a question for Robert: have you ever tried to contain a person on LSD, and if so what were the results…”

No, I have not. I have met many people who have tried a wide variety of drugs (some legal and prescribed, some not) who have had a variety of experiences. Some had an excellent experience and continue. Some had an excellent experience and under the supervision of a doctor tapered off when behavioral modification kicked after the chemicals helped make the change. Some had a bad experience and for some dumb reason continued, and some had a bad experience and quit. What I learned that it was all up to the individual in the context of their own lives and circumstances that pop up.

Again, what you saw to match wayne relates to the end stages of what was most likely a long decline. Not always to be sure, remember the Celtics pick from MD, Len Bias, who died at 22 on his alleged first hit of crack.

Still with POT the horrors you point out are extremely rare. I just did a quick search (I don’t let claims come back to bite me easily).

Most people like pot because it is safe. It is pretty much impossible to overdose. The only way a lab rat can be killed by it is to drop a 20# bail on it. There is NO hangover. That’s a huge advantage over booze. Quite frankly I would rather have a pilot fly a plane after a few joints the night before than have one with a bad hangover. Which pilot would you pick? One without a hangover or one that has a lot of bad publicity that is false?

Claud asks: “have you seen a person on LSD rip out their own eyes”

Nope. Did you or are you relating an anecdotal story? Here is a FACT…

Houston Edward Summers IV, an R&B singer gouged his own eye out after a thwarted suicide attempt. Let’s see: Suicide attempt then he maimed himself. You know I’ll bet that there was something more than drugs going on there. Don’t you think that with a red flag like a suicide attempt that it might be time to get the guy into treatment?

My point is that such extremes attributed to drug use usually have a much deeper rooted mental condition and there were signs way before the specific incident you may have witnessed. You see the drugs and immediately attribute causality when they may be coincidental. That simple minded analysis is what has dug the war on drugs hole much deeper than it should have been if folks on the front lines had taken a moment to think about it.

The fact is that the war on drugs is just like any other war. It is an excuse to get money out of the hands of the people, intimidate the population, and line their own pockets. IOW, you and millions of others got duped, or worse.

Of the confiscated cars did you ever get to drive a nice one? How much overtime did you rack up? Did you enjoy that extra commendation in your jacket because of a drug bust? Did you enjoy pounding all those “druggies” to the ground? The rush of going in gun drawn…

Rob

Robert,
I’ll give you one that isn’t anecdotal. I was in the 114th Assault helicopter Company in Vinh Long. We had a guy come to our unit from Bear Caht who was hooked on hard drugs. When he transfered, he lost all of his contacts to buy from so he tried to ease his pain with barbituates and failed.
One day as I was coming around the hootch to get dressed for guard duty, I heard three shots from the bldg. I walked in the front door and there was the guy laying on the floor in a pool of blood. He had taken an M16 on full auto, put it under his chin and pulled the trigger. It fired three rounds before it stopped. When i picked up my fatigues later to put them on, a piece of his skull dropped from them!! Fact! Ask anyone that was in the unit in 1971 and they will tell you about it. Victimless you say? His mother and father had to have a closed casket and couldn’t even tell their child goodbye!! I also heard later that he left a 3 year old kid behind as well!

Posted: “We had a guy come to our unit from Bear Caht who was hooked on hard drugs. When he transfered, he lost all of his contacts to buy from so he tried to ease his pain with barbituates and failed.
One day as I was coming around the hootch to get dressed for guard duty, I heard three shots from the bldg.”

Like I said, END STAGE.

From what’s posted it appears that many knew he had a problem. You know, I’ve heard all this screeching about how gays in the military will screw things up and how they can’t be trusted. Well, FOR SURE, a druggie couldn’t be trusted and he probibly screwed up several times. I’ll bet the unit carried him so he wouldn’t get into trouble. Or if he did it was passed off because it wasn’t a big incident. That’s just… (the guy who eventually shot himself in the head).

I blame those in the unit. WHY DIDN”T YOU DO SOMETING?

Medical care doesn’t cost the soldger anything in the military. He could have gotten treatment.

Rob