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The Real Thanksgiving Story

November 26, 2010 by  

The Real Thanksgiving Story

Did you know that our Pilgrim forefathers tried communism when they first landed at Plymouth Rock?

How’s that for a dramatic beginning to a story? Years ago, when I used to give a lot of talks to high-school classes, this was one of my favorites. It always got the students’ attention. And I have to admit, I also enjoyed seeing some liberal teachers get so upset with me they almost lost their lunches.

Here’s the story I told those students in those long-ago presentations. The Pilgrims who arrived at Plymouth Rock in 1620 were incredibly brave and hardy souls. They were motivated by the noblest of virtues. They vowed, each and every one, to be as selfless as possible — to always put the needs of the group first. They agreed to own everything in common and to share everything equally.

And their naïve piety almost killed them all.

We all know how the adventure began. A group of devout Christians, seeking religious freedom for themselves and eager to "advance the Gospel of the Kingdom of Christ" in the New World, set sail from Plymouth, England in 1620. An investment consortium known as the Merchant Adventurers of London provided the expenses for the trip, including chartering the Mayflower and its 40-man crew.

The deal was simple: The Pilgrims agreed to establish a colony in what is now northern Virginia, where they would plant crops, fish the waters and hunt in the forests. They would return a certain percentage of each year’s bounty to London until their debt had been repaid.

Things went wrong from the start. First, the syndicate changed the deal, drastically reducing the amount they would loan the Pilgrims. The brave adventurers were forced to sell many of their own possessions, and much of their provisions, to pay for the trip. As a result, they landed in the New World badly short of supplies.

Next, the small ship they had purchased in Holland, which was to accompany them to America so they could fish the waters off the coast, had to be abandoned in England. Shortly after they set sail, the ship, badly misnamed the Speedwell, became "open and leakie as a sieve," as its captain reported. They returned to Dartmouth, where the boat was dry-docked for three weeks as repairs were made.

But to no avail. After leaving Dartmouth, the group sailed less than 300 miles when the Speedwell reported it "must bear up or sink at sea." This time the ships put in at Plymouth, England, where it was decided to go on without the Speedwell. On Sept. 16, 1620, the Mayflower set out alone to cross the Atlantic.

A month later, when they had reached the halfway point, fierce storms battered the ship and threatened the lives of passengers and crew. Many wanted to turn back for England. But if they abandoned the journey, they would lose everything they had invested. The Pilgrims decided to trust in God and sail on.

Despite the storms, the hazards, the crowding and the poor food, only one Pilgrim died during the voyage, a young servant. His death was balanced by the birth of a son to Stephen and Elizabeth Hopkins, who named their child Oceanus.

There were 102 passengers on board the Mayflower — 50 men, 20 women and 32 children — along with a crew of 40. The captain set a course along the 42nd parallel, a bearing that would carry him to Cape Cod. From there he intended to swing south and follow the coast to northern Virginia.

A little more than two months later, on Nov. 19, land was finally sighted and the captain turned the ship south toward Virginia. However, they soon encountered such "dangerous shoals and roaring breakers" that they turned back to Massachusetts. It was then that the grumblings of dissent turned into a full-fledged roar. Many of the passengers insisted on landing in present-day Massachusetts, where "none had power to command them."

The Pilgrim leaders decided to meet the explosive situation by asking each male on board, except for the crew, to sign a formal document that would lay "the first foundation of their government in this place." Thus the Mayflower Compact was born.

The Pilgrims were a diverse lot. Many of them were illiterate. Yet in creating the Mayflower Compact, they showed an extraordinary political maturity. They agreed to establish a government by the consent of the governed, with just and equal laws for all. Each adult male, regardless of his station in life — gentleman, commoner or servant — would have an equal vote in deciding the affairs of the colony. Of the 65 men and boys on board, all but 24 signed the agreement. The only ones who did not were the children of those adults who did sign, or men who were too sick to do so.

The first decision made under the covenant was to abandon efforts to reach Virginia and instead to settle in New England. The first explorers landed at Plymouth on Dec. 21, 1620. Weather delays kept the majority from seeing their new home for nearly two weeks. On Jan. 2, 1621, work began on the first building they would erect — a storehouse.

Because provisions were so scanty, it was decided that the land would be worked in common, produce would be owned in common and goods would be rationed equally. Not unlike the society Karl Marx envisioned of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Unfortunately, thanks to illness, injury and attitude, the system did not work. Pilferage from the storehouse became common. Suspicions of malingering were muttered. Over the course of that first, harsh winter, nearly half of the colonists perished. Four families were wiped out completely; only five of 18 wives survived. Of the 29 single men, hired hands and servants, only 10 were alive when spring finally came.

The colonists struggled desperately for two more years. When spring arrived in April 1623, virtually all of their provisions were gone. Unless that year’s harvest improved, they feared few would survive the next winter. The Pilgrim leaders decided on a bold course. The colony would abandon its communal approach and permit each person to work for his own benefit, not for the common good.

Here is how the governor of the colony, William Bradford, explained what happened then. This is from his marvelously readable memoir (if you can make adjustments for the Old English spellings), History of Plimoth Plantation:

The experience that was had in this commone course and condition, tried sundrie years, and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the vanitie of that conceite of Plato & other ancients, applauded by some of later times; — that the taking away of properties, and bringing it in communitie into a commone wealth, would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God.

For this communitie (so farr as it was) was found to breed much confusion & discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefite and comforte. For yet young men that were most able and fitte for labor & services did repine that they should spend their time & strength to worke for other men’s wives and children with out any recompense.

Can you imagine? Some of the youngest and healthiest men in the colony complained that they were working like dogs “for other men’s wives and children.” Sounds like the situation in America today, where the taxes taken from those who work support many millions of others who don’t.

After three years of noble failure, the colonists had had enough. Once they replaced communal efforts with individual responsibility, the differences were dramatic — and life-saving.

Men went into the fields earlier and stayed later. In many cases, their wives and even their children (some barely past the toddler stage) worked right alongside them. More acres were planted, more trees were felled, more houses were built and more game was slaughtered because of one simple change: People were allowed to keep the fruits of their own labors.

In that simple sentence you will find the solution to all of the world’s poverty. Stop taking what others have earned. Let people keep the fruits of their own labors. Then get out of the way and watch the incredible abundance they will produce.

On this Thanksgiving weekend, some 390 years after the Pilgrims celebrated the first of this uniquely American holiday, let us remember the sacrifices they made, the devotion they showed and the lessons they learned.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • Scott

    Robert, I will buy you a one way plane ticket to the “compassionate” communist/socialist/progressive country of your choice. I’ll email you my Visa Platinum card number whenever you want to go: Delta’s ready when you are you ridiculous Dumbocrap

  • ROBERT

    I have no idea’s,my thoughts come from the government.

    • Vicki

      We noticed. Just not sure which communist government.

  • THIRD PARTY

    STILL WAITING ROBERT,LETS SEE THOSE GREAT IDEA’S.

  • ROBERTS MOM.

    HONEY TIME FOR LUNCH,COME UP FROM THE BASEMENT.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      OK mommy, time to quit annoying repukes.

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        And put some pants on …..

      • http://?? Joe H.

        And DON’T FORGET TO CHANGE YOUR DIAPER BEFORE YOU COME UP!!!!

  • THIRD PARTY

    ROBERT GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE OF YOUR IDEA’S,JUST ONE,WE CANT WAIT.

  • THIRD PARTY

    ROBERT PLEASE ILLUMINATE US WITH YOUR BRILLIANCE.YOUR POST SOUND LIKE YOU ARE A CARD MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY,SAME AS PROGRESSIVES.NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT,EXCEPTS IT’S FAILED SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF TIMES THROUGHOUT HISTORY.EVERY DOCUMENTED SOCIETY THAT HAS FAILED IN HISTORY,FAILED THROUGH COMMUNISM,AND SOCIALISM.PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      I’m a proud Liberal Democrat, not a repugnant repuke.

      • THIRD PARTY

        I’M SURE YOU ARE PROUD,SO WAS HITLER,GIVE SOME IDEA’S EINSTEIN.

      • Claire

        Robert–You are like the Energizer Bunny–you take a licking and keep on ticking.

      • TRUTH

        I THINK ROBERT DOES THE LICKING,OF THE JACK BOOTED MENTALITY OF THE NUTTY COMMIE.

      • Kate8

        Robert – Oh, but REPUGNANT nontheless.

      • JLC

        Robert — There is no such thing as a PROUD liberal democrat! There are a lot of ARROGANT liberal democrats but few, if any, have recently done anything of which to be proud!

  • John T.

    good luck with trying to have an intelligent conversation.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      John T, if by intelligent conversation, you really mean the twisting of facts, by repukes, then join in, and spread repuke lies.

      • Jana

        You cannot have a civil conversation with a Communist. You have been blinded by all of that coal dust and HATRED. I feel very sorry for you.

      • Bob Wire

        maybe so Jana, but I believe he walked a path that few of us has walked and has no illusions about who and what helped him in his journey and offered him comfort.

        There is few old coal miners left any more. I had the opportunity to met and have a nice long chat with one as I was dating his granddaughter at one time. The stories he told. Did you know they kept horses down in the mine? They lived their whole lives deep in the mine never to see daylight. They were considered more valuable then three men, for they knew their job so well and a vital part of mining.

      • Jana

        Bob,
        He has walked a path all right, its one of bitterness with a streak of mean and a very sour attitude. I have known people like that and they are not fit to be around other people.
        Besides, he isn’t the only one that has worked hard in life. I have a family full of very hard workers.
        They are truly tough men. My husband happens to be one of them. He is an extremely hard worker, and has worked in very trying conditions. He is a man, a tough man, but a gentleman too. In fact, he has even sewn himself up when he cut himself. I made him go to the Dr. the next day for a tetanus shot and the Dr. said he needed to examine what he had done first. He was amazed and asked him how he did it by himself. (Actually he made me tie the knots)
        My husband has worked in places overseas that was quite primitive.He has worked in areas that had no amenities and had to work 16 hour days 7 days a week. He knows and is not afraid of hard, tiring, or hot dirty work.
        In fact several times while he was eating meals in some of these areas he would look down and see worms crawling around. He had to go through parasite cleanses when he came home.
        He also has worked in Communist countries, after going to school for Communism so as not to break their laws so he wouldn’t end up in prison. He has experienced the sad and bad of communism.
        One time someone said a word I had never heard before and I asked my husband if he had ever heard it. His answer was,”Yes, but I won’t bring those words or thoughts into our home.” That is the kind of real man that I am married to. He is an extremely good daddy, and a wonderful husband and my best friend.

      • Jana

        By the way, he did tell me what that word meant. I also chose not to bring those words and thoughts into our home. I learned a lot of words and strange thoughts from my boss (female).
        we also CHOOSE to follow the Lord in our home and the Bible which I CHOOSE to believe says in Philippians 4:8 ….whatsoever things are honest,whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, what- soever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

      • Kate8

        Jana – Enjoyed that post.

        There aren’t many men left like your husband. Or should I say, there aren’t many real men on the Left! LOL.

        Seriously, he sounds like one in a million. Way to go, girl.

      • Jana

        Thanks, I am blessed.

      • Al Sieber

        Jana, good post. I work with the kind of men like your husband is, in fact I grew up with a lot of hard working people like that. your post brought back a lot of old memories, thanks.

      • Jana

        Al S.,
        You probably are one of those kind of men. :)

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        Hey Robert remember your statment befor were you said you got a job an bought a TRUCK and then RENTED a home and you were contributing to socity who did you RENT your home from a rich REPUBLICAN or was it provide to you by your Union just curious anddo you still rent or did you become a proud capitalist and BUY YOUR HOME , by the way Dr.Phil has a place for you on his couch .

      • http://yahoo Robert

        I own my home, from the meaningful wages; I received as a UMWA Union Member. If it was up to republicans, i.e. rand paul, I would have died in those mines. Rand paul wants to roll back, all the rules and regulations that allowed me to survive, 20 years underground. No thank you, I’ll support the government (OSHA, MESHA), any time.

        If you’re really interested, do some research in WV mining, and see how the government, and UMWA, saved many lives. Republicans won’t admit it, but they to profited, from rules and regulations, because their unsafe mines, became safer, and they didn’t have to reopen a mine, after it blew up.

        Have any of you conservatives; did any real labor, underground, in 5-1/2 feet tall coal seam? How about while standing in 8” of mud, and water, on Midnight shift. And while there is bad top, flaking off and dropping in the water, splashing you. And while you’re beside the belt, shoving a #4 shovel load of muck, onto the belt. Oh yeah, the belt has bad splices, to rip the shovel, out of your hands.

        I thought so, there are not any, and I’m not surprised, at all. All republicans are the fat bosses, and they don’t get their white hands dirty.

      • Vicki

        So tell us again why you like coal mining. You obviously do cause you did it for 20 years.

      • (WIA) Wild Indian in Action

        Robert, I am a full blood, three tribes, a Proud American and a Republican, no white hands here fellow! I am 74 winters, retired have several properties (all payed in full) very nice income from the fruit of my labors and working smarter, investing and following the advice of my parents and smart investors (Repukes and Demos), Never hung around the fort to get a hand out, or joined a union. Go out and excel with the intelligence GOD gave you, said my parents and for your ignorant way of thinking we are from Matriarchal Tribes. You are in a very sorry state of mind Robert, So my advice to you is to be Polite and go in the Communist Utopia CUBA.

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        Last comment I make to you I am going to another one of the sites But Robert you ever been to war ever been shot at ever do anything for your country besides put it down and bitch an moan .Coal minning might be a ruff job but I know of harder ones try being shot at and digging a trench at the same time .Grow up get life …. People have died for your rite to talk the garbage you do ….

      • Vicki

        Wait till he has to put out a raging fire in an apartment building full of live people. Now that is a hard sooty job and fire cares not one wit about Roberts unions or government.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Most fire fighters are government and union jobs so your point is mote.

      • Vicki

        Eddie47d. So government IS exempt from its own laws. Figures

      • JeffH

        Vicki, you’ll note that in the majority of eddie47d’s posts he will generalize and use the word “MOST” exclusively but never provide anything more than his “expertize” in these generalities with the word “most” inserted.

      • Vicki

        Oh yes I long ago noticed his technique. I notice his lack of cites too.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Some of my best friends are firefighters and all union.I don’t know of any in the Metro area cities that are not. So put away your silly put-downs.

      • Jana

        eddie,
        It still doesn’t make Unions right. Unions are also exempt from the new Health Care Bill. Thanks to Obama making deals.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        robbie, my boy,
        I have been a republican all my voting life. I have never been a boss, except now and I don’t employ anybody so the only one I boss is me. I’m not rich by any means unless you count my friends. (of all races I might add!) I own my house, three cars one a 1995, a 2005 and a 2008 all paid for. I don’t smoke or drink so I could afford these things I have. I have never looked for a hand-out, always given a good days work for a good days wages, my family comes first except when it comes to my God, I can shoot just as straight as most, and most important to me I’m honest and can look myself in the mirror!!!
        I could be on 100% disability as I have four pins and screws and more blown out discs but I would rather EARN my way through life! I have worked under four different unions and after that I’d just as soon work non-union! I have seen too many worthless pieces of humanity get job protection from the union just because they were union members and that is not ok with me!!!

      • Al Sieber

        Robert, it’s MSHA, not MEHA, Mining Safety Health Administration. nobody told you,or forced you to work there, you could of been a Brain Surgeon, or at least a Social Worker.

      • Vicki

        Or a fisherman

      • Al Sieber

        Vicki, if he was a fisherman someone would of thrown him over board, maybe for Shark bait.

  • http://none sean moor

    The only voting rights,women should have,is…THE RIGHT TO VOTE MEN TO OFFICE!!! ITS A MANS WORLD,BABY!!!

    • Angel Wannabe

      SM__”uh oh”, someone left the cage door open again!___:)

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Angel Wannabe, isn’t this what repukes want, a return to the bible, and the constitution? Liberals have always supported women’s, worker’s, social, and equal rights. What have repukes supported? They have only supported the rich, the suppression of the poor, and their narrow interpretation of the bible.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Robert, I’ve said all I’m sayin to you honey, when you feel like not talking smack, and having a real conversation, we’ll then maybe I’ll get back to ya. I’m off and on here today anyway, I’ve go stuff to do___Chow! :)

      • THIRD PARTY

        YOUR A SIMPLETON,ALL AMENDMENTS PASSED,THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WOMAN’S RIGHTS,FREEDOM FOR SLAVES,FAIR WAGE LAWS,FAIR WORK CONDITIONS HAVE ALL BEEN CREATED BY A REPUBLICAN CONGRESS,DO SOME HOMEWORK YOUR SOUNDING DUMBER EVERY POST.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Then why don’t you support them, and not rich repukes?

      • Vicki

        So Robert you are ok with Republicans just not rich ones? But rich Democrats are OK?

        (Not expecting an answer just having fun with the Hypocrisy. ;) )

      • Kate8

        Vicki – I always just find it amazing that, while lefties rail on abut rich Republicans, they choose to completely IGNORE the fact that the richest of the rich, elite of elite, are the DEMOCRATS. And mainly ones who’ve never done a days honest work.

        They go from their socialist college indoctrination, or twisted law degree, straight into politics. Spoiled trust-fund babies who know nothing about starting at the bottom and working hard to succeed.

        They think ultra wealth is only for them, while the rest of us are supposed to serve them. And their unwashed minions seem to agree with them.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Angel Wannabe,
        I wonder if he shuffles as he walks and carries a club??? Sean that is!!!

      • Angel Wannabe

        JoeH, Man O man the freaks are out this weekend!!!___whoa!

    • Karolyn

      Sean – Do you belong to the old “he-man woman haters’ club?” If so, you are the type of person who keeps crimes against women going.

      • Vigilant

        Good point, Karolyn. That ridiculous statement by Sean is best left as it is. After he made it, no one can take him seriously in anything he says.

  • Angel Wannabe

    Another take on the “Story of Thanksgiving”___

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=17984

  • http://www.gunthorp.com Gardner Behrends

    The story about the young settler who broke his leg illustrates not socialistic, but charitable, and just downright neighborly ethics. The key to understanding this incident is that the temporary aid allowed the settler to return to free market capitalism and success. Socialism may not have provided the incentive to get back on his feet so quickly, and his sense of entitlement might cause bad feelings which would alienate his neighbors who had been coerced to redistribute their wealth.

  • Mike Keller

    I do not understand the comments I have seen, its like the people making them are reading something else, and not the real Thanksgiving story. I think the author is right own, and if anyone has another version, let them put it out there for us to read, or just take history as it is and SHUT UP because the man has done his home work, unlike the rest of you who are making these silly remarks, and have NO CLUE!

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Mike Keller, you have not done your homework. Thanksgiving, is not about a rich repuke, enjoying the spoils of their suppression of the working class, it is about sharing one’s possession (food) with others, and being grateful, to Jesus Christ, and not a false god, as repukes worship reagan.

      Mike Keller, you stfu. Or maybe, along with the rest of your repuke buddies, you want to eliminate the first amendment?

      • booker

        HOW SOON THEY FORGET THE KOOL AID OBAMA HAS SPEWED.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “…enjoying the spoils of their suppression of the working class,…”

        Since the context is directly above I am not taking your comment out of context. Not that it needs a context for my point.

        My Robert. You identify yourself well as a Communist agitator. But then again we suspected that for a bit now.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “Mike Keller, you stfu. Or maybe, along with the rest of your repuke buddies, you want to eliminate the first amendment?”

        Do you know what hypocrisy is?

      • Bruce D.

        Robert judging by your comments I believe that once you get to work you are one of those who try to find ways to avoid working. No one can have as much vile and hatred as you do and have a clear conscience. You are hiding your own crimes like loafting and taking money without putting out the effort to earn it.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Robert,
        You tell him to STFU and then ask HIM if he wants to do away with the ammendment that guarantees the right of free speech?!?!?!?!

  • Dennis

    There were many comments earlier about the constitution, slavery, and the right of women to vote. The constitution allows for amendments and provides the methods to make the amendments. Amendments to the constitution become a part of the constitution. Therefore, the constitution does remove slavery and allow women to vote.

    The problem we have today is that we have liberals who say the constitution should be a changing document to say whatever they would like it to say. If you want to change the constitution, the constitution allows for the change and provides the method for changing it. It does not allow for changing it by judges or by executive orders of the president. If you think it should be changed and can get enough people to agree, you can get any change you want.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Repukes want to revert, to the constitution, and do away with the amendments. Repukes will not be happy, until slavery is legal again. Just look at the posts, defending rich repuke capitalists.

      I will never kiss a rich repuke’s arse!

      [Offensive statement removed]

      • booker

        MAYBE YOU SHOULD,THAT WAY YOU CAN MOVE OUT OF YOUR SHACK ON THE MOUNTAIN SIDE,AND GET A REAL JOB,INSTEAD OF FEEDING OFF OF OTHER PEOPLES SUCCESS.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Booker, what is a real job? I’ve been a Motorcycle Mechanic, Carryout Person, WV Union Underground Miner, Salaried Underground Maintenance Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer, and CNC Machine Operator. Through out all those jobs, I never had to kiss a rich repuke’s rear.

        Repukes define a real job, as being a business owner, and taking advantage of their employees, i.e. substandard wages, and no benefits. No thanks, I’ll support Liberal causes.

      • JimH

        Robert, I see a list of people you worked for. SOMEONE signed your paycheck. You did a job and were compensated. Who said anything about kissing butts? Only you. Since I’ve never worked for a homeless person, I will take a wild guess and say your employers were well off enough to be able to hire you. Even the mine owner who hired union help,is the one who paid you(not the union). Why do you believe a republican employer doesn’t compensate their emplyees as fair as other employers? Or wants his butt kissed instead of just wanting the employee to do their job? If an employer doesn’t meet your needs in the payrole area you are free to look for someone who will pay enough.(you weren’t sold into slavery, You went to the employer asking them for a job)

      • blackman

        Those comments are ignorant robert,,rich people are the only one’s who hire people,did you ever work for a poor person,your a moron.

      • dstk

        Robet I agree! most of the time the bigger they, companies-corporation (and their management board investers) are the more they take advantage and control

        Jim H, yes in a perfect world, but it is by no means is perfect, not all people are honest or get to where they are honestly and fairly, but they cover up with the idea that it is just free enterprise, capitalism they earned it, they always earned it… well maybe not so much. Many earned it on the backs of others, because they had money they had power and control and so on…
        I think it was Ben Franklin that said (something to the effect) in a perfect world we would need no laws…

      • Barbara

        You do realize you are paying the union for the right to work at your job. You work for your employer who pays you for your work. You in turn pay the union to keep your job, regardless of the quality of your work. The employer is not allowed to fire you should you not do your job to their standards.

      • Bruce D.

        JimH well put. My guess Robert is a loffer and wants the union to protect him from being fired. We have all seem his type. You show up on the job and stay for eight hours and that should be enough. You shouldn’t have to work too. The bigger problem is his type is teaching that mentality to the youth.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “Repukes want to revert, to the constitution, and do away with the amendments.”

        Do you have ANY proof of that AT ALL?

        Waiting. (Not holding my breath :) )

      • Karolyn

        AHA! Vicki, you guys say stuff like that all the time without proof. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

      • Vigilant

        Prove it!

        (:-)

      • Vicki

        Actually Karolyn you will observe if you actually read my writings that I do offer cites and links to validate my assertions. Something you should learn to do as well.

  • marie

    Does the dipstick know any other word? He no doubt thinks he is original but he is verry tiresome…Please enlarge your vocabulary, knob !!

    • http://yahoo Robert

      repuke, repuke, repuke……….

      • marie

        So dipstick knows who he is …..I love it

      • Vicki

        Robert. Repeating a word that you have already used over and over does not really qualify as enlarging your vocabulary.

      • Vigilant

        My God, what a spiteful, childish brat he is.

  • Winnie

    Happy Thanksgiving to the Second People of America. Thanks to the First Nations people, the pilgrims lived to produce all the democrats and the republicans of the United States of America. One of you had it right and had a good Thanksgiving with his family. One good American at least in this bunch.

  • THIRD PARTY

    WOW,ROBERT,AND ANN ARE CLUELESS SHILLS FOR SOCIALISM.THIS IS RETARDATION AT IT’S PEAK.

  • Roger

    What a cute little story!

    But you left out the part about the young settler who broke his leg and almost died, the year after communism was abolished, but was nursed back to health and fed by his neighbors until he could produce his own food again the next year.

    That sounds kind of socialistic to me.

    • Vicki

      Sounds like Christian Charity to me. To be socialistic there would have to be a government that took at gunpoint from the rest to care for this injured individual. And of course to maintain power over the individual the government would keep him on welfare.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Vicki, just like the rest of your repuke buddies, you didn’t refute his post with facts, and you just gave your wrapped repuke opinion. Why do all repukes, ignore stubborn little things?

      • American Citizen

        All you’re giving is your flawed opinions.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        american citizen, the repuke god reagan said, “Facts are stubborn little things.” He couldn’t handle any facts, he could only spout out rehearsed simple lines, from his simple little mind.

        Do you also have a simple little mind?

      • Jana

        No Mr. Communist,
        You are the one with the simple LITTLE mind.

      • Kate8

        And Robert is STILL controlling this thread!

      • Vicki

        The thread is down the left hand side. These are merely branches and can easily be ignored.

      • Vicki

        Are you asking me to verify his story? I accepted it at face value and observed that it was (as stated) an example of Christian Charity not Socialism. No need to refute any facts the prima facie evidence is there in the story.

      • JLC

        Robert — So far, I have seen no facts from you — only unsupported accusations! More than 50 years ago, I warned fellow members of my local of the United Steelworkers that American labor was, at that time, in the process of pricing itself completely out of the world market. Well — congratulations guys! You’ve done it!!!

      • Bruce D.

        Thanks for sharing that reality JLC. It is a concept Socialist cannot understand. Now Unions want all Americans to bail out their pension plans. Someone making $20 an hour non union is forced to contribute to the welfare of a union worker who is making $45 to $75 dollars an hour with benefits.

    • Barbara

      Actually that is being neighborly. Above all it is being a good Christian. There are times when a person needs help. It has to do with knowing the difference in helping someone in need and letting a lazy person take advantage of you.

    • Get Real

      good point, but it was capitalism that allowed the neighbors to have enough to share with the poor boy and nurse him back to health? So I believe it was charity that saved the boy and charity was made possible by capitalism.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Is that the same companionate conservatism? Repukes don’t really have any compassion, unless, it helps rich repukes, to get richer!

      • Get Real

        Robert, get some facts. Conservatives give more to charity than liberals. The richest member of congress are Democrates. Also, I guess you don’t know that liberals would love to close your mines.

      • Vicki

        Here is a cite to backup GRs assertion.
        http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071209120726AAmWPVE
        (Different than the one above just for variety. :) )

      • Angel Wannabe

        Your not only sour on the Republicans, you seem to indicate the wealthy STOLE to create they’re wealth!___Preparedness + Oppertunity = SUCCESS__Rather than b*tch about others, why don’t you try it for yourself??__You’ve got the same freedom to do so, like any of the rest of us!__Sounds to me like your just being miserable___and You’ve got a bad case of the ENVIES!

      • Chalmer

        Robert,
        People who cannot make an intelligent argument in a debate, will resort to name calling: like (“repuke”)
        Chalmer

      • Vicki

        Shhhhh… Don’t tell him. He provides an excellent example of your point.

      • JeffH

        Robert? I would like to know your thoughts about Obama being raised by a communist mother and father and embracing Marxism and communism throughout his life? Also through his education and associations, working with the likes of ACORN as a Marxist community organizer, embracing the teachings of Saul Alinsky? Garnering the full monetory and organizational support of the anti-American and Nazi collaberator George Soros.

        Obama’s socialist backing goes back at least to 1996, when he received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for an Illinois state senate seat. Later, the Chicago DSA newsletter reported that Obama, as a state senator, showed up to eulogize Saul Mendelson, one of the “champions” of “Chicago’s democratic left” and a long-time socialist activist.

        Of course, you, Robert, being a communist yourself would appreciate this link to Obama’s Ties to Socialism, Marxism, and Communism.
        Obama’s Father Wrote About Socialism, Obama’s Mother Was a “Communist Sympathizer”, Obama’s Parents Met in a Russian Class (Back then it was the Communist USSR), Obama’s Teen Mentor was Frank Marshall Davis, who was publicly identified as a member of the Communist Party USA and arranged for Obama’s college education to be paid by a very wealth Saudi, Obama Attended Socialist Conferences at Cooper Union, Obama’s Run for the Illinois State Senate was Launched by a Fundraiser Organized at Bill Ayers’ and Bernardine Dorhn’s(Weather Underground bombers)Chicago Home, Obama Attended Several Meetings with the Democratic Socialists in Chicago and Was even Endorsed by Them, Many Obama Supporters Idolize Che Guervara, The Communist Party USA Endorsed Obama, Obama’s Church is Rooted in Liberation Theology which is Rooted in Marxism.

        “It’s because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation.” – Barack Obama

        “The great task before our founders was putting into practice the ideal that government could simultaneously serve liberty and advance the common good. and Government, he believed, had an important role to play in advancing our common prosperity.” – Barack Obama

        Collective? Common prosperity? “the ultimate goal of socialism is common prosperity” Source: Yang Chungui, The Marxist
        http://obamaism.blogspot.com/

    • Ted Crawford

      There is nothing socialistic about it! Socialism is when the government takes from some to redistribute to those they choose to recieve it. In the case you mention the givers decieded to whom it would be given, that is simply good citizenship!

      • Kate8

        Ted, The real irony is that Obama and his communist cronies are taking from the working stiff and giving to the ultra rich elite rather than the poor who worship him.

        How is it that they haven’t figured this out?

    • Dennis

      It was socialism by the individual, not forced by the government. At the rate they were going, he probably would have already been dead without the change. As it was he was able to survive through the generosity of his friends, not the forced taking from his friends by the government to give to him. Capitalism as a government system still works better. Leave helping others to the individual.

      • Vigilant

        Dennis,

        Slight correction: Capitalism is an economic system, our government is a republic. Caitalism thrives under the free market system accommodated by our Constitution.

        Forgive me, but I had to make the point. Your head is right and you’re on the correct side of the argument.

  • Leon

    Robert wants a hand out not a job. He can’t spell Republican so he has to do the best he can.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      What’s the definition of a Republican? A rich repuke, or even a poor repuke, who wants to go back to the flawed US constitution.

      • Vicki

        Actually Robert if you were to study you would find that it is Constitutionalists that want to go back to the Constitution (Including all Amendments :) rather than Republicans.

      • Bruce D.

        Good point Vicki. The Tea Party is trying to force the Republicans back to the restrictions of the Constitution. Their similarity to Democrats were leaving us with a one party system. There are many progressive Republicans that want to eat out of the same ‘pig trough’ as Robertlikes eating out of.

      • Vicki

        When we are being nice we call them (John McCain) RINOs

      • THIRD PARTY

        YOUR BRAIN IS FLAWED,YOU HAVE NO CONCEPT OF THE CONSTITUTION,OR WHAT REAL FREEDOM IS.

      • Vicki

        And I should be good and provide a cite.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionalism

      • EltonJ

        Robert, the Constitution is ordained by the People and it is ordained by the Father. It’s purpose is to set up a FREE government here in America until the Kingdom of God replaces that government with another FREE government.

        It does not consecrate a Monarchy or a Feudal Socialist government at any stage. Feudalistic Socialism is not a perfect government. We libertarians oppose the establishment of a Feudalistic Socialist government and want to re-errect a Free Government for the benefit of all. If you approve of a Feudalistic Socialist government then you are not a libertarian.

      • Karolyn

        Elton – Where do you get “ordained by the Father.”

      • Kate8

        Karolyn – I believe Elton was using the term ‘ordained’ as in it was ‘willed’ or ‘intended’ by the Father.

      • Karolyn

        I got that Kate.

      • Jana

        Karolyn,
        Well it didn’t sound like you did.

      • booker

        ROBERT IS A PROGRESSIVE,COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THEN A REAL DEM.HE SPEWS THE SAME THINGS A REAL COMMUNIST SPEW,HE PROBABLY TUNES INTO 99.5 FM IN N.Y.PROGRESSIVES ARE BY DEFINITION ARE COMMUNIST.THEY ARE PROUD,AND THINK THEY ARE SMARTER THEN EVERYONE,THEY ALL AGREE THAT THE FRUITS OF ONES LABOR IS A BUFFET TO ALL LAZY PROGRESSIVES.THIS TOOL ROBERT WOULD BE IN A FEMA CAMP TODAY IF WE WERE ALONG THOSE LINES.HE SHOULD MOVE TO HIS FRIENDLY’S IN CHINA,NORTH KOREA,OR HANG WITH HIS BUDDIE DOA CASTRO.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Yes, booker, I’m a proud, Union card caring Liberal, not a repuke piece of crap, that spouts lines from the bible, or the repuke god reagan. GET IT? Inversely to meghan mccain, who said a bad repuke, is better than a good Democrat, I feel a bad Democrat, is better than a good repuke; because, repukes always take care of the rich, and never the poor.

        Here’s one question, for all your freakin repukes: Is supporting the rich, the moral equivalent, of defending the poor? If so, there is a special place for all you repukes, in Hell!

      • Get Real

        Robert, you are really messed up. I don’t know what happened in your life but you need help. You have no clue what the Democrates stand for and you are totally wrong about what Republicans stand for. I know you will not believe me but you are all messed up. I feel sorry for you and all the others who do NOT take the time to see between the lines. I can respectfully disagree with people who really believe in what democrates stand for but I cannot understand people like you who have no clue. If you really knew what democrates and republicans stand for and still support democrates that would be fine but you my friend do NOT. I will pray for you and maybe someday you will see that you beloved union is no different than your hated Rich. You may not “kiss the ass” of rich repukes but you do kiss the ass of your Union pukes.

      • booker

        YOUR WORKING FOR GEORGE SORROS,YOU THROW TERMS AROUND WITH NO CONCEPT OF THEIR MEANING,THAT CALLED A RETARD,LOWER IQ THEN 80.

      • booker

        DUDE,YOUR A REAL TOOL,THE SO CALLED RICH REPUKES GIVE 3 TO 1 IN CHARITABLE DONATIONS TO THE POOR,WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT,YOU SOUND THE THE BED WETTER ON MSNBC.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “I feel a bad Democrat, is better than a good repuke; because, repukes always take care of the rich, and never the poor.”

        You realize I only have to find 1 example of a republican taking care of the poor to disprove your entire assertion. Your feeling is just that and needs no proof nor disproof.

        http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html

        You will of course note (if you read it) that the article speaks mostly of liberals vs conservatives. I am willing to bet that I will find at least one conservative Republican in that group. Thus I submit the cite to totally refute your assertion that “repukes always take care of the rich, and never the poor.” Unless of course “repuke” is not your troll word for Republican even though you have stated that it is in other comments here.

      • alpha-lemming

        I REALLY feel sorry for you. So much hate and propaganda, so little tolerance and information…. that dead canary should’ve been a major red-flag to you.

      • Ernest T.

        My family income is around 40,000 a year. I give freely 10% to the Church (before the taxes are extorted) and about 5% more to other charity. Charity is good extortion by the government to buy power from those that take the bribes is bad. GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES AND POCKETS. We Christians will care for the poor and truly help them. The Government will enslave them and call it taking care of them.

      • Bruce D.

        Nice blog Earnest T. Robert seems to have the same hatred for God that he has for Republicns. It would be impossible for him to understand the concept of voluntarily giving as opposed to getting group agreement for government to steal from the individual to redistribute.

    • Vicki

      I can’t spell either but there is a built in spell checker. Robert is deliberately spelling that way to troll for responses.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        The correct spelling of republican, is REPUKE!

      • Angel Wannabe

        Your not offering anything new Robert, it’s obvious your just here putting in hours to collect your pay!___But Hey, Have a Great Day! :)

      • Jana

        Robert,
        The correct spelling for Robert is COMMUNIST!

      • Angel Wannabe

        Jana, Man O Man__Can anyone say Mr. miserable?!__Geesh!

      • JeffH

        Vicki, Robert is just another version of HFlash…a liberal troll and hack whose only reason to be here is to share his misery and unhappiness with himself. A lot of similarities to another hatefull troll and miserable hack, denniso.
        Repukes? Dumbocrats? Just words, nothing more and certainly nothing meaningfull or worth argueing over.
        When trolls like Robert are ignored, they eventually go away.

      • Vicki

        But he makes such a good foil to carve up with truth and fact. Just think of all the people just reading when they see him troll and we respond with reasoned counters to all his propaganda. It also empowers them to counter the propaganda they received from MSM and school and it lets them counter the propaganda in people like Robert.

        True Robert is such a delightfully extreme case that we need say nothing and most folk will see the problem. But there are always those who are closer to liberal that need a little help breaking the chains that bind them.

      • JeffH

        I certainly can’t argue with your logic. LOL!

      • Vicki

        It’s my simple mind :)

      • JeffH

        Vicki, you’re not alone and so, so right. I believe that sometimes the answers are much simpler than they appear.

      • Vigilant

        JeffH:

        I haven’t seen any of Flush’s postings here. Do you think he morphed into a newer, dumber version and became Robert?

      • JeffH

        Vigilant, not to worry, he’ll be back for another round unless, like American Liberal, he’s finally ignored and fades away like a bad memory.

      • Bruce D.

        Vicki I am not good at spelling either. I tend to spell along the lines of my accent. How do you find that spell checker? I only know of the one in Hotmail.

      • JeffH

        Buce, I use http://www.iespell.com/ ieSpell – A Spell Checker for Internet Explorer

      • Bruce D.

        JeffH, you are very kind to post the download. It is something I have wanted for a long time and I appreciate it very much.

      • Vicki

        In my case I use firefox. It is built in.

      • libertytrain

        Vicki – me too – love it.

  • Vicki

    Robert is such fun. He trolls and trolls trying to make us say mean things about him but we just go on about our debate.

    Please Please Please either ignore him or ONLY debate with him. DO NOT give him the pleasure of ad hominem attacks against him.

    • Jana

      Vicki,
      He goes by Robert, Truth, Third Party, blackman, Roberts Mom, and booker, according to Personal Liberty. See post below.

      • Vicki

        Waiting on validation of the post from PLS

      • JeffH

        Vicki, I do believe that PLS is legit…I’ve seen the occasional note from PLS in other threads and am quite sure that they would catch and delete any posts using a phony PLS “handle”.

      • libertytrain

        Jeff is correct and I think there are actually two separate Robert’s posting, one using the “repuke-minded” Robert’s name as well.

      • Vicki

        My level of certainty is higher for Bob L’s name than for PLS but I concur that it is likely that moderators would squash them as well. Though having verified the problem as good moderators they should delete all the accounts except the first one. But that may not be the policy here and I do like the openness of discussion so I am not suggesting changing it.

      • libertytrain

        Vicki – sometimes things are not always what they seem – and one thing we all can agree on, though, I almost always agree with you – is that I absolutely love that we can express our opinions pretty darn freely here without being deleted as we would on a lib site and how the libs are not removed from this site… no matter how many times we would like to see them removed :)

      • Kate8

        JeffH – Robert has managed to control the entire direction of this thread so far. We all bite.

        Frankly, his posts cause me to recoil and even feel slightly nauseas. There’ just something creepy about his guy, and it comes right through his words. Never quite got that from the other lefties.

        Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t deal with this guy.

      • JeffH

        Kate8, oh yes on that. His intent is to incite much the way HFlash and some others do, as if it is their sole job to do so. Facts be damned! Unlike denniso, who is purely blind of reality and filled with real hate or eddie47d who strays like he’s got ADD and is much more confused and focused on the little things rather than the core intent of the discussion. They all display a common trait though, all corporations are evil, they hate CEO’s and every rich person is a Republican/conservative. Everything else is a right wing conspiracy except that the real conspiracy lies in the fact they’ve all, to the tee, bought into the Soros/Globalist’s “mind conspiracy” that we are the evil people and that they are the true American patriots.
        I guess in their minds a vote for Marxism/socialism/communism is a vote for patriotism…go figure.

      • Kate8

        JeffH – You are, of course, right, as usual. Except that I really don’t thing these guys even understand the concept of ‘patriotism’. I think they are more concerned with class-envy and getting a share of what others have worked for. It’s purely self-interest.

      • JeffH

        Kate8, you’re probably more right on that.

  • BrotherPatriot

    ^^ Wow…some of the ignorant comments already… ^^

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone…I hope yours was as warm and family filled as mine. I was happily surrounded by family and ate way, WAY to much..at both houses…lol. Even got my nap in! :)

    Thank you God for such a fine day/night!

    In regard to this article…2 primary ROOT level words to go with its simple message of keeping the fruit of your labors vrs the strategy of communisim…

    Free Market.

    Fiscal responsibility, smaller government and a free market is what America needs to return to. The Tea Party says it like it needs to be. I predict that Obummer is NOT going to make it to the end of his term…I predict a great deal of change is coming…the GOOD kind of change. However, I’m biased…my cup is 1/2 full.

    God Bless.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      The repuke god Reagan said, “Facts are stubborn little things.” He couldn’t handle any facts, he could only spout out rehearsed simple lines, from his simple little mind.

      • Get Real

        Robert, It is obvious who is spouting out rehearsed simple lines, from their simple little mind. And NO it is not all of those “repukes” that you keep insulting.

      • booker

        ACTUALLY THE COMMIE ROCKEFELLER SAID THAT IN 1913 WHEN THE FEDERAL RESERVE WAS FORMED.

      • Vicki

        The earliest I could find was John Addams circa 1770
        http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/3235.html

        Though someone else may well have said it or similar earlier.

        Also the correct quote does not contain “little”

      • Vigilant

        Thanks Vicki!

        John Adams is my favorite of all the Founders, but I didn’t know he said that.

      • Bruce D.

        Actually Robert you are twisting what Ronald Reagan’s meaning. It is the communists that could not handle the facts. That is why the Berlin Wall came down.

  • e. nies

    The first people to try the communist approach were the Christians after the crucifixion of Christ. As was pointed out previously that it did not work and so Paul said Work or you do not eat. The first Communist Putsch came when people sold what they had and brought it to the apostles. One couple decided to keep a portion of what they got and claim they had given all. Both of them died. They died not because they had not given all but because they lied to the Holy Spirit. In fact Peter said, “You were not required to give anything”. Unlike the the liberal progressives who want forced distribution of wealth.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Liberals want “meaningful” jobs, not handouts from rich repukes.
      Where are the meaningful jobs? Bob McDonnell, the repuke governor of Virginia, said: “All Americans should have the opportunity to find and keep meaningful work, and the dignity that comes with it.”

      It will never happen until all repukes are driven out of office, again. A meaningful job, to a rich repuke, is working at McDonalds!

      • Conservative at Birth

        What is a meanigful job? Working for the Government?

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Ask the repuke governor, bob McDonnell, what meaningful is, you repuke idiot. Better yet read it yourself: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/27/bob-mcdonnell-speech-full_n_439508.html

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        The huffyington post get serious find a better example than that .Can get much more far left than that lberial crap . Come on man Dr. Phil is waiting for you .

      • http://yahoo Robert

        I am not, kissing a rich repuke arse, for a meaningful job! I didn’t have to do it, when I worked in the WV mines, for 20 years, and I refuse to grovel to a rich repuke now!

        VERY proud, to be UNION, you repuke idiot!

      • Vicki

        Tell us Robert. (You hinted in another post) What did the union in WV do for you. Please be specific. I have questions.

      • Vicki

        Btw I DO support you being in a union if you WANT to be.

      • THIRD PARTY

        YOUR RETARDED TO THE FULLEST DEGREE.

      • Jana

        Robert,
        You could almost be my uncle. I always remember his frownie face and the union was his god (little g on purpose) He was also from WVA. He truly had hate in his heart too. Every family gathering all he did was yell and fuss. We don’t go around him anymore. If you want to yell and fuss, why don’t you take your own advice from yesterday and “do it among your own kind!”

      • Vigilant

        Robert,

        I’d like to know your take on the environmental movement. Seems like your president has set his sights on demonizing the coal industry, and doing everything in his power to replace it with clean energy.

      • Vicki

        What is a meaningful job to you Robert? And are you creating such jobs for people or just complaining about not having one?

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Vicki, ask the repuke governor, Bob McDonnell, what meaningful is, you repuke idiot. Better yet read it yourself: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/27/bob-mcdonnell-speech-full_n_439508.html

      • Vicki

        I did not ask Bob I asked YOU. I would however like to thank you for a link. Most liberals just make assertions and presume proof by bald assertion.

        I don’t think that word (idiot) means what you think it means. :)

      • Vigilant

        Kind of like the Huffington Post?

      • Get Real

        Robert, you seem to have republicans and Democrates mixed up ? Do you even know the difference ? Has your union brain washed you to the point of no return ?

      • http://yahoo Robert

        I know the difference between a repulsive repuke, and a kind, sensible Democrat.

      • Vicki

        I would hope you know the difference even if you remove their political affiliations.

      • Get Real

        Robert, I can see you are havin trouble knowing the difference between Democrates and Republicans.
        Here’s a hint:
        One party wants to give you a fish so you can eat today and still depend on them to eat tomorrow. (similar to Unions)

        The other party wants to teach you how to fish so you can feed yourself and family and not be dependent on them.

        I bet you will get this wrong !

      • Angel Wannabe

        Robert__” a Kind and sensible Democrap”___Put the koolaid down and step away from the table!___lol

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        The Republicans at least in this case of mine owners get wealthy off the backs of hard working miners. They take all the fish they can and throw the workers the left overs. Democrats want to see their workers have more fish so ask for better wages so they can survive another day.

      • Get Real

        Wrong, wrong, wrong…. Democrates want to control your life period.
        they want you to depend on the government for everything. That is the base of their power. More government in your life. If that is what you want then fine but do not deny what a democrate is. If you believe in socializm, amnesty for illegals, abortion, higer taxes, globalization, cap and trade, man made global warming, gay marriage and that the world would be better off without the USA then you may be a democrate.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Get Real,Mr Get Real. Who’s propaganda book did you get that line out of?

      • Get Real

        Eddie, that is not propaganda that is what Democrates stand for (and the list goes on). If that is what you believe fine just own up to it. If you don’t think that is what democrates stand for then you don’t have a clue and should really read a little more or even better listen to some of the democrates own words. Just learn what a democrate is and if you agree fine just don’t deny the truth.

      • usmadgirl

        Joe H, Jana, Vicki, Vigilant, Get Real, Kate8, Mike W, Conservative at Birth & anyone else who has responded to “Robert”

        Why do you guys even respond to this obviously delusional nitwit who’s apparently living in a reverse parallel universe? Everything he says is exactly opposite of reality. The Huffington Post link (that I wouldn’t read if I had a gun to my head) & the line about “a kind & sensible Democrat” (which is an oxymoron, to say the least) did it for me! I threw up just a little! He’s not worth the finger exercise to type a response! Maybe if you don’t respond, he’ll go away! He’s probably a “plant” from some progressive freak site anyway!

      • Jana

        usmadgirl,
        The Personal Liberty told us he was posting under several names, some even contradicting himself. This man is truly delusional. He was posting under Robert, Truth, Third Party, blackman, Roberts Mom, and booker.
        Since then we have been ignoring him.

      • libertytrain

        USMADGIRL – perfectly logical post! Couldn’t agree more.

      • usmadgirl

        Libertytrain,

        Thanks!!! He was just getting my blood pressure up with his psychotic “repuke” lies!

      • usmadgirl

        Jana,

        Thanks for the heads up! He’s just another lying Dumb-o-crap imposter!

        Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving!

      • Jana

        Thanks,
        We did have a great Thanksgiving. Hope yours was great too. :)

      • Vicki

        usmadgirl says:
        “Why do you guys even respond to this obviously delusional nitwit who’s apparently living in a reverse parallel universe?”

        Cause sad but true if you remove his ad hominem attacks much of his fantasy is shared by lots of Democrats here in California. By practicing on him we are better prepared to handle the nonsense when we interact with others who share his world view.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        USmadgirl,
        yeah I guess you’re right!! DARN! There goes my fun. Guess I’m just gonna have to be entertained by picking on roberto smythe!!

      • JimH

        Robert. Meaningful jobs are created by a free market economy. When these markets are hindered by high taxation, unreasonable regulating or unreasonable union demands these meaningful jobs are lost. GET IT. It’s not free market republicans who are causing the loss of meaningful jobs. By the way a PAY CHECK no matter how it was EARNED, is more meaningful than a Dem. wellfare check.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        JimH, and Vicki, I survived the 20 years in the mines, not from the generosity, of the rich repukes; but, from the laws enacted by the US government. The UMWA, was a significant part, of the process. The Mine Safety and Health Administration, which is part of Occupational Safety and Health Administration, enacted rules and regulations, which prevented mines from blowing up. You two repuke idiots, are minimizing their role, in safety. JimH, and Vicki, just look, at the non-union mine explosion in Kentucky, which claimed 23 lives. It was owned by a rich repuke, which had no regard, for safety, and workers lives. http://www.kentucky.com/2010/11/19/1532129/msha-issues-286-citations-at-targeted.html

        The repuke elect, rand paul, does not have any respect, for the lives lost, in coal mines. Why are repukes, ignorant of facts? The repuke god Reagan said, “Facts are stubborn little things.” He couldn’t handle any facts, he could only spout out rehearsed simple lines. JimH, and Vicki, you also spout simple lines, from your simple minds.

      • Vicki

        Robert. You Survived? Was it dangerous? Tell me if you were so at risk WHY did you do it? You could have been a fisherman instead.

      • Get Real

        Wow Robert, I didn’t know that non-union mines DO NOT have to follow government safty rules ! I am glad for you that you work in a Union mine which has NEVER had an accident. I do have a question? If your mine is owned by a nice kind democrate why do you need a union?

      • JimH

        Robert, The person that OWNS that mine is the the one who signs your paycheck. The person who hires the union workers, is the one who provides a job for you, the mine owner, not the union.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “…JimH, and Vicki, you also spout simple lines, from your simple minds.”

        I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

      • Ernest T.

        This argument is older than time its self. Lucifer promised everyone; that they would be returned perfect, if they followed his plan. Jehovah promised freedom to choice, to make mistakes and grow from those mistakes. All would not return, but those that do will be much stronger. If you are here on earth you chose right there. Now you are falling for the same lie. Satan is now telling you that if you give up your GOD given rights to Unions and Government you will receive everything that everyone else has. As long as you work to keep them in power. They will extort from those that have and give to those that empower them. Power to the people and the states. GET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT(and their union allies) OUT OF OUR LIVES AND POCKETS!!!

      • Get Real

        Robert, a lot of “rich repukes” (myself included) started out working for Mcdonalds. It just proves the point that if you work hard
        no job is meaningless. Are you a hard worker or do you expect the government to just give you a “meaningful job” ? If one person has been doing a job for many years and is much better at it should a new hire be paid as much ?

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Yes.

      • Vicki

        Why?

      • Get Real

        lol … So I guess you are always the new guy who wants to make as much as the old pro….

      • Barbara

        This is called socialism.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        On second thoughts, Absolutely yes! I started in the coal mines, at livable wage, and I contributed immediately, to the economy. I bought a truck, and started renting. I worked, at my “meaningful job” and prospered. It wasn’t from the generosity of rich repuke, it was from rules and regulations, enacted by the government! Rich repukes, won’t be happy, until slavery is enacted, again. Are rich repukes, saving powder to enact slavery, again? A rich repuke, will always have a reason, not to pay a meaningful wage, i.e.: I need a new house, like the rich repuke mccain owning seven.

      • booker

        YOU REALLY SHOW HOW STUPID YOU REALLY ARE ROBERT.79 OUT OF THE HUNDRED RICHEST PEOPLE IN AMERICA WORKED IN A FAST FOOD PLACE,OR A OIL CHANGE PLACE.IT’S CALLED A STARTING POINT,THE PROBLEM WITH COMMUNIST LIKE ROBERT,THEY CHOOSE TO BE LAZY,AND UNEDUCATED TO THE POINT OF NEEDING A HAND OUT.NO JOB IS BENEATH ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL,AND IF YOUR INTO FACTS STOP SPEWING YOUR NONSENSE.

      • Vicki

        meaningful wage? What is that? Do you have an actual number?

      • Get Real

        Robert, you have lost it buddy. LOL…..

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        ROBERT…..You said ..”I contributed immediately, to the economy. I bought a truck, and started renting”. When you were RENTING your home was it from one of us rich REPULICAN’s who allowed you to RENT their home from them or was it RENTED from one of your kind ?????

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Vickie says Robert should have been a fisherman. What a cop out! If nobody wants to do the hard jobs then who will work the mines? Should we import more immigrants? Booker has no idea where Robert worked his first job.So he starts calling him a communist and lazy. Which means that coal miners are communists and lazy!! You definitely have to be a Republican to say something so moronic.

      • Vicki

        Eddie47d writes:
        “Vickie says Robert should have been a fisherman.”

        Eddie should read what I wrote and not what he thinks I wrote. But it is a common human failing.

        Eddie47d:”If nobody wants to do the hard jobs then who will work the mines? ”

        Failed connection between hard job and mining.

        If nobody wants to do the hard jobs (for some value of hard and job) for some wage, those jobs don’t get done. For some higher wage someone will do the job. Or the business fails and we move on.

        That is why Capitalism works.

      • Vigilant

        eddie,

        You went up in my estimation one notch when you spoke sensibly about illegal immigration. Sadly, in supporting Robert (a REAL wacko), you’ve dropped back two notches.

      • Al Sieber

        The Miners out here get $15.00 hr., plus another $2.50 hr. for a good safety record. thats $17.50 a hr. starting out, plus medical benefits and this is non-union. we follow the same agency’s rules as Union. each miner is responsible for his safety, and the safety of others, if you don’t, you’re fired. no Union to go running to, if you’re unsafe nobody will work with you. stop crying Robert you little “Wimp”.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Robert,
        If a guy sits on his butt all day and does very little work, should the company have to keep him just because he is a union member??? This HAS happened!!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Robert,
        One other question, if a mine worker that works right along side you in the mine does a good job and the mine owner decides to reward him by making him a foreman or a manager, is he then a rich repuke as you put it???

      • Bruce D.

        Robert you should start a business and hire people. That may be the only way for you to take an honest look at employee/employer relationship. You do not have the reality that it is not as easy as you think to make a businesses profitable. Many businesses fail. To make a business successful the owner has to work twice as hard as his employees to make his business successful in addition to capital outlay. Once it is successful he can take some time off and put others in charge but must always stay on top of things as businesses have a tendancy to fail if left unattended by the owner.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        You are so full of bull. The liberals want to sit around and do nothing and have the rest of us pay for their sitting around and doing nothing. A modern day case in point. My daughters liberal boyfried. Did 4 years in the military, no war time, came out and didnt learn any trade. He wasnt recommended for re-enlistment, which tells you a lot right there if you have ever served. Now, its been a year since he has gotten out, and still he has not even let the thought enter his head to get a job. Why? He says, “why should I work when they are giving me 350.00 a week to stay home and party”. And now, he is going to get 1000.00 a month for house if he enrolls in school, and he is planning on collecting that for 4 years, with no plans for a trade or learning anything. And my liberal daughter, who was not raised that way, is working paying the way, and letting him sponge off of her, which I detest in a big way. This is todays liberal left. What a mess.

    • EltonJ

      Actually, the original 12 Apostles tried something called _The Law of Consecration_ or the _Order of Enoch_. This is how it works:

      Property is privately owned by the individual except for certain community service projects such as an electric generator.

      An individual retained all of his profits, and voluntarily may give of his increase to the community. He keeps what he needs in order to see to the needs of his family. As far as I know, this is strictly voluntary. A man may withhold his profits if he so desires.

      The family is declared to be the basic social unit of the Order. According to the Law of Consecration, the nuclear family comes first. The order only took over when the family has failed for some reason.

      Under the order, your personal security is paramount. You have the right to possess legal title to your lands and rivalrous goods (such as things made of dead tree pulp). All of your property is held in a stewardship that each man enjoys to full independence even to the point of taking his stewardship out of the system if he desires.

      Competition is encouraged among all, also so is cooperation. Each man is encouraged to prove himself a profitable servant and the more ingenuity and efficiency you manifest on your own, the more profitable you are considered to be.

      Supervision is Decentralized. Each Man supervises himself ultimately, since is he given wide latitude in which he will develop his own particular stwardship to his greatest possible advantage. The judgement by your bishop or other spiritual leader is on the final results.

      Finally, Morality, Spirituality, and religion are the foundations of this order. Respect for the Father and the priesthood is important for this to work.

      It sounds as if the Pilgrims tried this way, but the order cannot work without full knowledge of it. It quickly degenerated into Communism. As a result, they changed back to a more natural way of doing things (Capitalism).

      • Ernest T.

        Very well put Elton, you have seen the light.

  • mayflowertwin21

    Marx was not even alive in the early 1600′s and did not publish “Das Kapital” until the mid 1800′s so there is no way the Pilgrims would have had knowledge of communism as a political theory.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Thank you, for your history knowledge. Repukes lie, and twist history, for their gains. The best example, is that repuke joker Glen Beck.

      • Vicki

        Robert. Your obvious hatred for Republicans is showing. You might consider toning it down a bit. On second thought don’t. You will make a good example to others.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        I am only reciprocating, the anger I see from the repukes here. What is the matter, can’t repukes stand some truth?

      • Vicki

        Do you know what ad hominem means with respect to debate?

      • patricia

        Somehow, I don’t think you would know the truth if it hit you on the head with a hammer…..! Great article, Chip.

      • http://none sean moor

        hey vivki. ask robert that question you asked him erlier?!? what was it again????

      • Vicki

        Which one? I have asked several. Typical liberal though. No response.

      • THIRD PARTY

        THE BED WETTER OBERMANN IS YOUR TYPE I BET.OR THE TINGLIER CHRIS THE YAK JAW.

      • Bruce D.

        If Democrats have their way there will be no coal jobs in America. You need to wake up unless you are retired at this time and do not care about those that follow you as coal workers.

      • Vicki

        He has time to post here so he must be a labor leader and no longer working in the mines he so loves/hates.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        You have plenty of time to post here so you must be retired or disabled. (you seem to love giving snip-pity little answers so fair is fair).

      • Vicki

        Lets see. Hmmmm.. Not disabled. I don’t get money from the government. I do send money to the government. That’s it I must be retired. Or maybe I am just about my Fathers business.

      • Al Sieber

        Vicki, this guy would never work in a mine with me, if you don’t get along with the other Miners you get your a$s kicked, Union or not. Robert wouldn’t last 5 minutes working with some of the people I work with.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Al; Where do you get the idea that Robert doesn’t do his share of work or doesn’t get along with the other miners? You are doing an awful lot of assuming. He could be the hardest worker but very tired of all the crap. Every job is different even at different mines.

      • Jana

        eddie,
        I think you are doing the assuming. This mans attitude is atrocious. I doubt if he even gets along well with his own family let alone any possible coworkers.

      • Al Sieber

        eddie47, every mine is different because every “ground” is different and anything can happen until you know the ground above you. people like Robert, brooks, etc. can be very annoying working with underground, especially if he talks Politics or voted for Obama instead of looking for safety hazards, most other miners would have a little talk with him, if you know what I mean.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Al sieber,
        and they say words will never hurt you?!?!?! They obviously haven’t had that little TALK!!!

      • Kate8

        Robert – I can see why you wouldn’t like Glenn Beck. Anyone who speaks of things such as God, honor, self-lessness, and the American spirit would be quite offensive to someone such as yourself.

        I’d rather listen to Beck than you anytime!

      • Bruce D.

        Kate8 nice reply. Glen puts his heart and soul into what he is doing as do you. Good job.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        kate8,
        I’ll second that post!!!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Ok Robert, Im taking you to task here. You call Glenn Beck a liar. So prove it. Tell me one lie he has told? Just one? Now, not something that you have a different opinion on, because thats just your opinion. I mean a stone cold lie. You call the man a liar, and bear false witness against him, I want to see your proof that he is a liar. Or, are you just repeating what your liberal friends in the media are telling you? Put the proof out there Robert. I know you cant, because the dude doesnt lie. He exposes the liberal left for who they are and what they are, and lays them naked to the world. Thats why the liberals hate him, because he speaks the truth and reveals them with solid stone cold truthful facts about them, and they cannot refute the facts, so they make up stories, and call him a liar. Yet his proof is always there. So where is yours Robert. I say bring it, or shut up, and not your left wing liberal opinions, I mean factual evidence that he is a liar. I want to see it, because every liberal I have asked this of, has not yet produced one single iota of evidence of Beck lying, only their opinions, which are direct copies of what I hear the left wing liberal media say. They are blind followers. Bring some facts to the table Robert, or quit repeating blindly what uneducated people are saying with their lies.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Are you a union idiot like eddie? You know, that needs a group to protect you so that you can lay around and not work hard like your supposed to?

    • Vicki

      You do not need to know the future name of a method to know the method.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Vicki, repukes are the definition of ad hominem, when repukes swift boated John Kerry. Vicki, you are showing repuke hypocrisy, at its best.

      • Vicki

        I think you ment this for a different part of the thread. You can try and fake an answer. That works in school but not so much here.

        So I ask again what is the definition of ad hominem with respect to debate.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Robert,
        John Kerry is the epitomy of a hipocrate!!! He put himself in for a medal he didn’t deserve while others that deserved them refused them!!!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        John Kerry is a traitor, that turned against his own men. John Kerry received a purple heart for shooting himself in the arse. Need I say more?

    • Vigilant

      Who said they had knowledge of it?

      They certainly practiced it, whether or not the word “communism” had been coined.

      What a ridiculous statement.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        The point is, that Chip Wood, twists history, for repuke gains.

      • Frank

        The point is you are part of the uneducated masses who falls for communist lies. Be gone with you. Leave this great nation and move to Cuba.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        This not a “great” nation. Liberals are trying to improve this nation, to greatness. You gtf out of this nation! I’m tired of repuke lies.

      • Vicki

        Likely we were here first Robert. You leave.

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        I bet you voted three or four times for this idiot in office rite now.You are just an upset misgudied person. You sound like you could use a Dr. Phil hug or perhaps even spend some time on his couch .

      • Al Sieber

        Robert, time for your “Prozac”.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        The point is, you reject history and its truths. And those who dont learn from history, are doomed to repeat it. The democrat playbook 101. Keep repeating past mistakes.

    • Conservative at Birth

      Communes have been tried throughout history. It was not a new idea when Karl and Wilfred wrote the Communist manifesto. You need a refresher course in world history, my sadly ignorant enemy.

      • Vigilant

        CB,

        I don’t know why we even engage in discourse with this idiot. We should just leave his screed unchallenged. He seems to be doing a fine job in divulging the ignorance of the left, better than anything we could do.

        And the liberals think WE are the ignorant hayseeds!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        I think Robert is a plant from moveon.org.

    • Conservative at Birth

      Actually I believe it was the mid 19th century.

    • Ted Crawford

      Mayflowertwin21: Bradford refered tp Plato as their source of inspiration. Plato lived around 380 B.C. Did you think that Fredrick Engels and Karl Marx thought up the whole concept on their own?

    • Jana

      mayflowertwin21,
      Of course they didn’t call it communism when the settlers tried this. Some things should be obvious but evidently they are not. There is really nothing new under the sun. They didn’t put a name on it, they just thought of it as a way of life, and quickly found out it did NOT work.
      It still doesn’t work.

      • Vicki

        True. Chip used the name we know the method by TODAY so he didn’t have to describe the method twice. That is called brevity I think.

      • Kate8

        Jana, When you think of it, it is true in any grouping of people. Reminds me of clubs and churches, etc. You have 20% of the group doing all the work (cleaning, potlucks, special events…) and 80% partaking of the fruits but not of the labor.

        You always have the top 20% in any facet of life. You also have the bottom 20%, and everyone in the middle who justs do what is necessary to get by. The bottom 20% expect to be taken care of by everyone else.

        To communists, the top 20% are dangerous because they are self-motivated, the bottom 20% are lazy and useless, and there are just too many of the rest.

  • Conservative at Birth

    Most Americans are probably not aware of our first experiment with communism, and probably why they voted for a Marxist in 2008. It is sad but true, all attempts at coummunist economic systems end in failure. It is human nature to work down to the lowest common denominatort when all recieve the same bnefits. Look at what unions have done to the Automobile industry, for example.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      The Unions, have kept the rich repukes, from owning everything. Additionally, the Unions, have given the poor people, a voice against the rich repukes. Americans, owe their present day prosperity, to the fights the Unions have waged against rich repukes.

      Go ask any West Virginia coal miner, what the union did for him. I am very proud, to be a member, of the United Mine Workers, of America. Rich Trumka, still fights for worker’s rights.

      The repukes, have spread lies against Unions, in order for more repukes, to get rich.

      • Vicki

        What lies would those be Robert? And be specific. Also if unions are so good why do they force people to be in them?

      • http://yahoo Robert

        The unions, made the mines safe, and fought for a fair wage. Repukes did not care, how many miners were killed, in WV mines. Don’t be stupid all your life, and do a little research. I have done real labor, not type at a freakin keyboard, to keep repukes lies going.

      • Vicki

        I notice your reading comprehension is not up to the standards I would expect from someone who does labor but I will try again.

        What lies would those be Robert? And be specific.
        If unions are so good why do they force people to be in them?

        Robert will please note that in the past unions were of good use. Please show examples of where unions are CURRENTLY of good use.

        3 questions for you to work on now Robert.

      • Jana

        Robert,
        My husband doesn’t even like to work with most Union hands because all they know how to do is ONE thing. Or, they refuse to do anything but the ONE thing they were hired to do. My husband works wherever he is needed, not just the ONE thing he is supposed to do. Ergo, he has always been highly sought after.
        You may be the exception on this, but I doubt it by the sour puss attitude you convey.
        I do believe you are one of those Dumb-o-crats that I hear being talked about.
        You were the Mr. Scrooge of Thanksgiving, and from the sour way you talk on these sites you represent the Mr. Scrooge attitude all of the time.

      • Barbara

        If the unions are as good as you say, why then did they go on strike during WWII? Roosevelt was so angry at the unions in the ammunition factories he threatened to send the National Guard in to work. This accord before the Battle of the Bulge.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Thanks Robert for working in the mines for us and fighting for those safe working conditions. We are a better nation for it.Those whom attack you don’t understand the hardships in the mines and the health issues you have to live with. They attack unions and laborers who built a strong middle class in America and now that once strong middle class is disappearing. I guess if you don’t work in a shiny glass building then you are a nobody.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        That owner of that West Virginia mine is a big Tea Party supporter. He also ignored the warning signs that the union had given to management. 23 lives were lost and that makes him culpable in that tragedy. That makes him worse than a liar and so typical of an owner who looks at his workers as expendable.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “JimH, and Vicki, just look, at the non-union mine explosion in Kentucky, which claimed 23 lives.”

        Eddie47d writes:
        “He (the owner) also ignored the warning signs that the union had given to management. 23 lives were lost and that makes him culpable in that tragedy.”

        Umm.. You guys should whisper each other and get your story straight. Was it union or Non-union?

        And both of you erred on the count which in the link that Robert provided (thank you Robert) said 29 and was talking about an incident several months ago.

      • Al Sieber

        Your full of it Robert, what mining companies, and mines did you work for? all mining co. report to 2 Federal agencies, and 1 state agency. Unions have nothing to do with enforcing safety rules.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Vickie; We both have stated that they were union miners so what is your problem? It was a tragedy that could have been avoided so why are you trying to white wash this incident. I’m sure the mine owners care about safety but seldom go into the mines themselves and actively inspect for workers safety. (out of sight and out of mind).It’s up to the workers to report what the safety issues are. Al says the government inspects mines, which is true but how often do they? Most Federal inspections are many months and sometimes years behind. We’re not talking about mold in in the back of some restaurant or a dirty floor. We are talking about an extremely dangerous job.

      • Al Sieber

        eddie47, they inspect the mines once a month, Fed, and State. It’s up to the miners to keep all areas safe, you have to have to take a 40 hr. safety course before you can go underground,you have be certified. you can not work in the mines unless you have your safety card, and every year you have to take a refresher course. the experienced miners train the new ones, it’s up to you to do a safety check every shift, and everyone else. one mine near me fired 160 people this past week because a bunch failed the drug test, and the others weren’t cut out for it. this is non-union and Ariz. is a right to work state, I’ve been doing this for 36 years, and my grandpa was a miner. nobody is worked any harder, nor is the conditions any worse because of a Union.

      • Vicki

        Eddie47d writes:
        “We both have stated that they were union miners so what is your problem?”

        If you had bothered to READ (No wonder liberals don’t seem to mind that their representatives don’t read the bills) you would have seen where YOU said it was union and Robert said it wasn’t.

      • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

        Robert,

        I agree with you 100 percent.I work in the coal mines 43 years,not one time we had a fatal accident.We were heavily unionise.

      • katvilani

        Why should people enjoy the benefits of union wages and benefits without paying dues? Should I have to pay taxes so that other people’s children can go to school, should I have to pay taxes to support faith based charities if I’m an atheist? My friend worked at H.B. Reese Candy Company for 15+ years and they were non-union, but they got the same benefits as the unionized employees at Hershey Foods without having to be in a union was that fair? The company gave them the same benefits merely to prevent them from voting for a union, after all why support a union if you can just ride on the coattails of one.

      • American Citizen

        A lot of companies wised up, knowing that if they didn’t treat their employees right, they couldn’t keep them. If a company is treating its employees right, why would they want to join a union where they have o pay dues to corrupt leaders who use their dues in ways they wouldn’t themselves? Unions are doing companies in. That’s why they are moving offshore in order to survive.

      • Vicki

        once the other companies wised up the unions job is done. The problem is that the union doesn’t disband.

        It could always reform if/when the companies start taking advantage of their employees again.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        katvilani,
        My wife works for a non-union company now and if you go there and mention a union you will be run off the prooerty!! By the WORKERS!!!! The company treats them fairly, are proud of their time without an accident, pay their employees well, have four health plans to choose from, and the best retirement I,ve ever seen and I have worked both union and non union, from UAW to teamsters to IBEW!!! I’ll never work for a union shop again as long as I live!!!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        katvilani,
        I don’t know about where you live, but here in Ohio, we pay for our schools from property taxes. EVERYBODY pays for the kids to go to school even if they have never had kids!!!

      • Frank

        Do you really believe this bile? This great nation was founded well before the first unions were formed. If you really believe that Republicans and corporations are evil why not stop working for one and form your own company? And take no more salary than the lowest paid worker?

      • Vicki

        Oh Frank. But then Robert would really have to work. Anyone who has ever run a (small) business knows that they work a LOT harder then they did laboring for some big corporation.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        That is a lot of fairy dust!

      • Vicki

        What is?

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Small business owners work long hours but laborers work a lot harder and deserve much more respect than what they get.

      • Vicki

        I would think a laborer would much prefer wages to respect.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        That is why some business owners don’t respect their employees and pay little to retain them. Well paid workers are more productive and show more loyalty to the company.Respect is a two way street.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “That is why some business owners don’t respect their employees and pay little to retain them. Well paid workers are more productive and show more loyalty to the company.Respect is a two way street.”

        Thus you see it is a self regulating system needing no union nor government interference.

        Enter the Union.

        Good companies get and pay good pay to good workers. Bad companies get unions and go broke paying high wages to unproductive, unfireable union workers and get rescued by the taxpayer.

        Thus the good companies and good workers and good UNION workers get stiffed by higher union dues and taxes and the customer gets shafted with continued production of low quality product. What a great system. EVERYONE looses. Well almost. There are union leaders and politicians that do well.

        I presume by now you have heard that the UAW made a killing on the GM IPO.

        http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11/flush-from-gms-ipo-uaw-targeting-new-vw-plant/

      • Bruce D.

        Frank you have pointed out the biggest flaw in their thinking. There is no reason why progressives (socialists) could not get together and buy a Mcdonalds and divide up the profits equally. Then of course if everyone is in charge who would do the work? One progressive could buy a McDonalds and divide the profits equally with his workers. Opera has billions. She could buy businesses and let all of her progressive fans share in her wealth. The only reason not to do that is the understanding that if someone is not in charge working for a pro

      • Bruce D.

        … not in charge working for a profit the business will fail.

      • Vicki

        We know how good Liberals are at sharing THEIR wealth.
        http://blog.fortiusone.com/2009/01/07/dataset-of-the-day-who-is-more-generous-republicans-or-democrats/

        It is other peoples wealth they love to spread around.

      • Conservative at Birth

        Why must you resort to name calling. I am a Repbulican, and like most Republicans I would not be classified as rich. I believe that rhe republican form of government and free markets are the best systems of government and ecomomic production. If you would care to debate the history of unions, bring it on. Did you know that the average contribution to the Republican Party is 1/2 of the average contribution to the Democrat Party? I think that meritocracy trumps democracy every time.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        I have not read any outrage, when Democrats are referred to as “ Democraps.” You are confirming the hypocrisy, of repukes. There was not any outrage to bush increasing the deficit, or when the repuke members of Unions, bowed to the rich repuke owners, in their demand for tiered wage agreements. Repukes voted in $8.00/hour, for new hires, and they kept their $20.00/hour jobs! Repukes are the definition of hypocrisy!

      • booker

        YOU CAN TELL YOUR A HILLBILLY,THINKING $20.00 AN HOUR IS GOOD,MUST BE NICE TO BE STUPID,AND POOR.ONLY A REAL LOSER WOULD STAY AT A $8.00 AN HOUR PAY FOR EVER,THAT MUST BE YOUR MENTALITY,GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

      • Al Sieber

        So Robert, you and BOOKER are brothers, right?

      • Get Real

        What’s the difference between rich repukes and a union leaders ???

      • Vicki

        R vs D in the name :)

      • EltonJ

        There are none.

      • Vicki

        How many union leaders are Republican and how many Democrat and how many “other”.

      • Vicki

        I haven’t found out the ratios but since unions want to keep Democrats in power we can infer that they are not Republicans :)

        “While union leaders say they are determined to keep Congress under Democratic control, they risk undermining that goal by settling scores with incumbents, said Matt Bennett, who was the White House liaison to governors in the Clinton administration.”
        http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-02/unions-spurn-democrats-seen-as-turncoats-on-issues.html

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Union leaders fight for a voice for their fellow workers and the owners do their best to take away that voice.

      • Vicki

        Why do workers need a voice? Cat got their tongue?

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Thanks oh great Pharaoh!The workers with the help of the unions have to be their own Moses’s to better their lives. There are still plenty of managers and corporates who will hold their workers down.

      • Vicki

        Why do they need unions? Lots of workers do quite well working for businesses and do not have (or need) unions. What is their magic?

      • http://?? Joe H.

        edduhh47DUHS!
        Well, when all those union jobs are overseas because they have priced themselves out of the market, I hope their union cards will buy food and heat!!!

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Vickie; A good management team that treats their employees fairly. Who said everyone needs a union?

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Joe H. (Hemroid) I see you are as nasty as always (edduhh47duhs).I thought you would wise up but you are still that same Ole’ prick. You ought to at least have the courtesy to bring up managements salaries and the unearned bonuses they get. That is an even bigger reason that jobs are lost. White collar workers can make a company top heavy and drag it down even faster. So all this dumping on the unions is way past old!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        edduhhh47duhhs!
        Let’s see, 30-40 managers and 5-600 workers being over paid. which one contributes to over pricing the most??? Almost 70 dollars an hour!!! 40 to 50 hours every week 52 weeks an hour!!! Hear that little bell going off in your empty head yet?????

      • http://?? Joe H.

        correction: before eddie wets his panties and jumps all over me, thats 52 weeks a YEAR!!

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “A good management team that treats their employees fairly.”

        And why do some people need a union?

        Eddie47d:”Who said everyone needs a union?”

        Apparently unions. :)

        http://nlpc.org/stories/2010/05/18/union-backed-bill-would-force-monopoly-bargaining-public-safety-employees

      • JeffH

        Vicki, again you’ve done it. Poor eddie47d just can’t get a break. Everytime he tries to refute something with his broad generalizations and pure assumptions he’s corrected. You’d think just about anyone could learn after getting knocked down so many times to validate their comment, but not eddie47d.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Vickie and Jeff always assume that employers are always fair and honest.Since so many companies have been proven to be dishonest,like Enron and Lehman Brothers maybe there is a greater need for unions or some other entity (arbitrators).Neither one of those companies were union and look what they did to our economy.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “Vickie and Jeff always assume that employers are always fair and honest.”

        Unlike Eddie47d, we (or at least I :) and probably Jeff too. ) do not.

        Eddie47d:”Since so many companies have been proven to be dishonest,like Enron and Lehman Brothers maybe there is a greater need for unions or some other entity (arbitrators).”

        2 of 6000+ is hardly so many. And you have not shown that either company is dishonest.
        http://www.census.gov/econ/susb/

        eddie47d:”Neither one of those companies were union and look what they did to our economy.”

        And what (Be specific) would a union do to prevent what you allege those companies did to your economy? I know what unions have done to the auto industry :)

      • Vicki

        Here is a link to go with my comment above about the auto industry :)

        http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-grand-rapids/unions-destroyed-u-s-auto-industry

      • booker

        RICH T IS BEING INVESTIGATED BY THE F.B.I.

      • Bruce D.

        The biggest flaw in Unions today, besides unsustainable benefits and especially with the teachers union, is that it is way too difficult to fire someone who is incompetent. I think that the unions at one time were necessary. The unions have forgotten that it must be a win-win between employers and employees. When the unions become too powerful they become what they hate and take advantage of the system causing businesses to fail. Right now the same political powers on the left that support the unions want to distroy the coal industry. If the left are allowed to stay in power you will have no job at all. That is understood by most.

      • Mr. P

        I just realized who Robert is. He is really Red-Roger from San Francisco, who is a ceritified 5150. In union terms that is NUTS. Unions killed pretty much everything in this country. They were good when we capitalists were maming children etc. Now they just support commies and Harry Reid.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        The unions are scourge upon society Robert. I know, I worked for 11 years in 3 different union shops, and they were all the same. Guys from one end of the plant to the other, screwing the company, costing them thousands of dollars, and nothing could be done about it. Then they would strike and close the company, because the greedy cusses wanted more money when the company wasnt making it, primarily because the union workers didnt want to work and be efficient. They have the “the world owes me a living” mentality, and I was never so glad as I was the day I had had enough of it, and quit my job, and went looking and found a job a week and a half later, in a non union shop, where lo and behold, I found out that they recognized my hard work effort, and Ive more than doubled my pay in the last 14 years. In the union, I made what everybody else made. The low lifes that sat around and hid all day, got paid the same as the guys that worked real hard. And I dont care who you are, that is not right. Boy that used to piss me off. And myself, and a few others would get called in by our lead man, and tell us to quit doing so much work, because we were making the other guys look bad. Unbelieveable. I mean, come on man. The first job was working at a Brewery, and by 1:00 in the afternoon, every day, we were on the roof with a bucket of beer drinking, and they would tell us to quit working so hard because we were making the other guys look bad. Gimme a break. I watched these guys, at all three companies I worked for, cost these companies thousands of dollars, and nothing was done about it. I watched them falsify time cards, steal products, get caught and fired, and 3 weeks later they were back to work, with back pay. The unions stand for this behavior. America isnt about this kind of behavior. Unions are the scourge of this country, and I for one am glad Im out of them, and will be glad to see them all go away. They have ruined New York and Massachusetts, just ruined them. Its time for them to go.

  • Proud to be a Christian

    Chip, there wasn’t any place to comment on your article about Benjamin Franklin, you were in error on when he died, according to the internet he died April 17th 1790 of old age and pluisy (spelling) . Just wanted to let you know. Keep up the good work.

    • Cliffystones

      I read that date and wondered in what semi-parallel universe Ben died before the Declaration and the Revolution?

    • http://none sean moor

      “PRIDE GOES BEFORE A FALL” proverbs

  • dean chen

    what’s meaning “tried sundrie years”?

    • FlaJim

      Tried for several years, Proud.

      It should also be noted that the first recorded Thanksgiving feast, a carryover from Old World harvest festivals, was NOT the Indians feeding the starving settlers. To the contrary, the settlers were sharing their bounty with the Indians who little of crop cultivation and were far lass effective hunters.

      This wasn’t the first Christian communalism. St Paul said in one of his letters (Romans?) that those who do not work should not eat. The concept is very warm and cozy but simply doesn’t work. When people are given a reason to work and produce, like putting a roof over their heads and eating, they will do so unless unable. That’s where Christian charity comes in, not before.

      • Susana K

        FlaJim, it’s 2 Thessalonians 3 starting at verse 6. Jesus is telling his disciples that when they visit a particular town, they are to pitch in and work for their food and not be “idle,” “not because we don’t have the right” (which alludes to custom still practiced in the Middle East of giving hospitality to travelers) but (8) “neither did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. (9) We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. (10) For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: ‘If a man will not work, he shall not eat.’

        (11) “We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. (12) Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.”

        I have had occasion to cite this rule to people who insist they have a “right” to take advantage of my circumstances (which are far from lavish) by plopping down on my land and free-loading.

      • Jana

        Dusana K,
        Good for you.

      • Jana

        Sorry, I meant Susana.

      • FlaJim

        Thanks for finding that, Susana!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Thank you for speaking the truth. The truth will set a person free. Im tired of hearing so many of the left wing liberals saying how the government should take care of all these people, and keep giving them hand out after handout, and to tell the truth, over 90 percent of the people I see collecting these handouts, have money to buy alcohol, cigarettes and drugs. Im sorrow, but I do not condone that behavior. I also have a hard time finding someone needy of government handouts, when I see them wearing 150.00 a pair Nike shoes, 150.00 NFL team jackets, and seeing them at the grocery store buying 400.00 worth of pork products with food stamps. If someone doesnt want to work, and believe me, the people I see day in and day out living on the government dole, are fully able to work, but dont want to, as they are getting more free than a lot of hard working folks get working for it. Its not right, and it needs to stop.

      • Bruce D.

        Nice point FlaJim and well put.

  • Ann Wood

    Hey! What a great idea – every man (person?) is given several acres of beautiful forest land, clean streams of water, unspoiled ocean front,
    basic tools from the storehouse (?) allowed to defecate in the woods,
    smoke weed (if he grows his own),kill wildlife at will, make his kids
    do what HE wants and be a fully recognized law unto himself. Later on
    when he proves his ability to be adept at taking advantage of both nature and humans we will give him a few native Americans to teach him
    real skills. What a plan.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      You were right the first time, when you said “man.” The bible, gives man the right, to be the leader, and the constitution, confirms this idea. The bible, also allows slavery, and the constitution allows this. So, how many repukes, want to follow the constitution?

      • Frank

        The Constitution does not allow nor restrict slavery because slavery is not a governmental institution. And clearly you are part of the uneducated masses or you would understand what the phrase “man” refers to. It is not male as in sex but rather mankind of which both male and female are part. I have had the privilege of working for many a female who were clear leaders and smarter than you.

      • Vicki

        The Constitution clearly hints at slavery. “We the People….” Other than that the WHOLE purpose of the Constitution is to LIMIT what powers “we the people” can talk ourselves into giving to a small group that represent us. And to limit the restrictions we can place on each other thru government force.

      • Jana

        Wow Ann W.,
        Lets count how many times a person can miss the point.

      • JeffH

        Just thought I’d repost this information about ROBERT at the top of this thread also.

        Personal Liberty Support says:
        November 26, 2010 at 12:18 pm
        Dear Personal Liberty Family,
        The person who has been posting as ROBERT, has also been posting as TRUTH, THIRD PARTY blackman, ROBERT’S MOM and booker. If you will follow the thread you will see that he has been working to disrupt conversation on the site. Please ignore him.
        Thanks.

      • Vicki

        JeffH Thank you for the information however that person (PLS) has not been validated. As such it could be anyone even Robert posting. The only way I know to validate that person is for Bob L to come on and do so.

        Bob L is a trusted source for me because I trust the moderators to remove anyone pretending to be Bob L.

      • Vigilant

        Until the 13th and 14th Amendments, there was nothing in the Constitution that made slavery an illegal practice. Most of the Founders, and even the South, realized that the “abominable institution” was destined for eventual extinction. It of course took a devastating civil war to rectify the injustice done to the slaves.

        When the people constituted themselves, they excluded slaves, loyalists and Native Americans from the purview of Constitutionally guaranteed rights. The importation of slaves was prohibited after 1808, but not outlawed. The early and increasingly bitter debates were about the propriety of extending slavery into the new territories.

        The sad fact of the matter is that no union of 13 states was possible without retaining slavery in the South. Founders such as John Adams and Ben Franklin were antislavery, but they were also pragmatists who realized the South would never ratify the Constitution if slavery were immediately outlawed.

        The three-fifths compromise is to this day badly misunderstood by many people to mean that the slaves were considered 3/5 of a person. In reality, the compromise was an antislavery measure (explanation will follow if anyone’s interested).

      • Vicki

        /raises hand

        Me. I’m interested. Especially if there are cites to follow.

      • libertytrain

        Vicki as you said the moderators would remove anyone pretending to be Bob Livingston – they would also remove anyone pretending to be them — so you kind of answered your own question.

      • Vigilant

        Vicki.

        Thanks for asking!

        When the Constitutional debate turned to the matter of representation in the House of Representatives, the South wanted to have a one-for-one basis for calculation, i.e., they wanted every slave counted as a person for determining population (it’s the main reason we do a census every ten years).

        The Southern Founders had a great interest in perpetuating slavery in their own states, and were prescient enough to know that they needed as many representatives in Congress as possible, to urge for extension of slavery into the new territories that would become states one day.

        The white population of the Southern states could not match the population of the northern industrialized states, and in some states the blacks outnumbered the whites. Therefore, the south wanted to bolster their numbers in Congress by including the slave population.

        The Northern Founders said, wait a minute, you can’t have it both ways. You consider slaves as chattel or “property” and unworthy of Constitutional rights, yet you want them considered as “persons” solely for determining the number of southern Reps. in Congress. If the North had had its way in the argument, the slaves would have been counted as zero, thereby reducing Southern representation on any votes regarding the future of slavery.

        Both sides, cognizant that no Union could be created if the argument remained unsettled, decided on the compromise that, for every 5 slaves counted, only three would be used for determining Congressional representation. Article I, Section 2 reads (in part):

        “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.”

      • Al Sieber

        JeffH, thanks for the info. I won’t respond to him again.

      • Vicki

        Thanks Vigilant. That is pretty much how I remember it.

      • http://none sean moor

        frank,your a sellout. I bet you do what ever your wife tells you to do. Thats right…TELLS YOU TO DO!!! dont ask you.TELLS you. so, just stick your head back up your wife’s ass.until she is ready to TELL you what to do next!!!!

      • Karolyn

        What the frack? What is YOUR problem?

      • http://?? Joe H.

        sean moor,
        my wife happens to be a manager and I have talked to people that work for her and got nothing but the best from them! I find her to be a good person of good character, not always the easiest to get along with but then neither am I. I find you to be a very disrespectful and probably progressive person with that last remark and if you are half the man you think you are you will appologize to Frank for the remark about his wife!!

      • BOB

        Framk is on target, mike keller as well, the rest are the product of the public school system. We must change that to reflect the real family values of this country.. We the people must become rightously angry and say it is wrong when it is wrong. Demand the country come back to the values of the founding fathers…..

      • Carole Howell

        Rewriting history eh? lot of that going on and has been going on. Kings and Queens here and there have taken liberties of the bible, changing this or that to reflect their views and beliefs.

        But the truth is out there, it cannot be hidden or completely suppressed not matter what the powers that be try.

      • Jana

        Folks,
        As you go through and read Robert’s replies, you will see true ignorance and true hatred in action.
        WOW, this is an example of a sad pathetic person.

      • Kate8

        Jana – My thoughts, too. Reading Robert’s posts these past few days made me rather ill, actually. He is an angry, pathetic, truly hateful person who only came on this thread with nothing but vile insults.

        Really, I just couldn’t do anything but ignore him and hope he’d go away.

      • Bruce D.

        If my memory serves me of reading years ago many did not like slavery and wanted to outlaw it in the Constitution. That was not acceptable to the South but it was agreed that the importation of slaves would be outlawed after 20 years of the signing of the Constitution. That you will find in the Constitution I believe. If you want the real truth you need to find books that were written in that time period or as early as possible. Progressives like Ted Turner and TBS like to spin history according to their progressive ideology and dislike of the American heritage.

      • John D. in CA

        For those interested regarding the Constitution on slavery, the prohibition is actually in the 13th amendment:

        “Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

      • Vigilant

        Robert, you are obviously the ignorant product of today’s public so-called “education.”

        Had your left wing teachers correctly imparted to you the nature of the Constitution, you would not have made such a rash statement.

        The Constitution does not allow slavery; that was corrected with the 13th and 14th Amendments. I suppose you never heard of something called the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation?

        Women were given the right to vote with the 19th Amendment.

        Are you saying you have no obligation to honor the rule of law and the Constitution?

      • http://yahoo Robert

        I’m saying repukes want to return to the constitution, which is a flawed document. Liberals have the view, that the constitution is not a perfect document, it is a living document. So, to return to the constitution, requires allowing slavery again, and women would not have the right to vote. How many of you repukes, really want this?

      • Vigilant

        “So, to return to the constitution, requires allowing slavery again, and women would not have the right to vote. How many of you repukes, really want this?”

        Your logic is as deficient as your education. The Constitution is DEFINED by its basic articles PLUS the Amendments. To assert that anyone in this country would want to return to slavery and disenfranchisement is as ridiculous as saying that Nancy Pelosi is a conservative.

        What’s more, you KNOW that what you are saying is a lie. Grow up, sonny.

      • Vicki

        Robert you should investigate more closely. There is nothing in the Constitution permitting slavery. It does however STRONGLY LIMIT what powers we can give to the government. Those of us who propose returning to it are simply proposing returning to the government limited by the Constitution.

      • Vicki

        With respect to women and voting the 19th amendment is part of the Constitution so why would returning to the Constitution cause us to not be able to vote? (Any bets on an actual or attempted answer from robert? ;) )

      • Irena

        Well, robert, if you hate our flawed Constitution that much-even with slaves being freed, and women having the right to vote years ago-you can always move to a country that has no rights at all. Do not let the door hit you on the way out, as I am sure there are plenty of other ignorant folk such as yourself ready to replace you. The Constitution is a living document. And although it was written by men with clay feet, I think it is the best document in the world. These writers were far more wise than many today. If you do not like the Constitution, you are more than welcome to go to elsewhere. For there are plenty who are willing to stay behind and defend the very document you despise.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Robert, aside from declaring the Constitution to be “FLAWED” What then, is your perfect idea of Freedom??

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Vickie; If we went back to the original Constitution there wouldn’t be that right for you to vote,plain and simple. He is only trying to point out that it is living document and does change throughout the years.

      • Vicki

        Eddie47d. There wouldn’t be any NEED for me to vote. Being a free person I would not be affected by laws other than the obvious that I shouldn’t kill, maim, hurt, steal. Common morals of the people who founded this country.

        Once the Government got out of the chains of the Constitution it became VERY important for women to vote. Even blonds like me :)

      • alpha-lemming

        Flawed document…. flawed document???? I know I’ve heard a famous (infamous?) Dem utter those exact same words within the last several years. Maybe on a Chicago talk-show?? Just can’t remember.

        Anyway, we love our Constitution (and the amendment process) and it IS the reason we became a super-power in less than a couple centuries vs. Europe, the middle and far East which have been around for millenia. It’s obvious this founding parchment and it’s enumerated form of government makes you very unhappy. Well…. we want you to be happy. I’m sure fellow posters would gladly make donations to purchase you a one-way ticket to the country of your choice (Cuba, China, N. Korea etc.) where you could thrive in the lap of communist luxury and laugh at “all us workin’ suckers”. No longer would evil capitalists be able to break into your house at night and steal your last can of pork-n-beans. Consider it our Christmas present to you… we DO want you to be happy… I just don’t think that’s possible here in the USA.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Alpha-lemming,
        Would that famous politician be Jerry Springer??? After all, he was the mayor of Cincinatti till they almost kicked him out of town!!! He is of Jewish decent and allowed a guy on his short lived radio show to say that the Nazis followed the geneva convention to the letter without calling the person out on it!!! worthless skin on a more worthless skeleton!!

      • Dave

        I’m not saying that I agree with what Robert is saying but if the constitution is perfection in writing then why did it take ammendments to the constitution to allow women to vote or to abolish slavery. That is just proof that it’s a living document. Also, people like Rand Paul would like to see the 14th amendment removed. How do you explain that. Just like the Bible the constitution can be interpreted to mean whatever you force it to. Also, this story is ridiculous and is typical of the author. It is a plain old propaganda piece. Interpreting unrelated history to try to prove a point today that makes no sense. The situation of 40 people with no government has no relevance today. He also leaves out that if everyone is only concerned with themselves and not the community then eventually the more powerful trample those below them. The reason we have regulations on business now is because we tried not doing that and the results were horrid. How quickly we forget the mamed children working in unsafe factories or the Robber Barons or the Bosses in NYC. Unchecked “Capitalism” breeds it’s own tyranny and permanent ruling class.

      • Vicki

        Very easy test. Were the maimed childeren forced to work in the unsafe factories? If so by whom and how? (Be specific).

        We’ll start there.

      • booker

        THE 14 TH AMENDMENT SHOULD BE REMOVED,IF YOU EVER READ IT,IT’S FOR THE BABY’S BORN INTO SLAVERY.THEY WOULD BECOME CITIZENS,NOTHING ABOUT ILLEGAL ENTRY TO THIS NATION.

      • booker

        EVERY WRITTEN ACCOUNT,OR PRACTICED ACCOUNT OF CAPITALISM THAT BECOMES WHAT YOU CALL UNCHECKED IS DUE TO ONLY GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Thanks Dave for I thought the article wasn’t totally upfront either. There has been too much of a pollyanna feel to all the Pilgrim stories . It was certainly more tragedy than triumph and it could have been more disastrous that first year if they hadn’t stuck together. Few can survive in the dead of winter under alot of circumstances. These Pilgrims didn’t have any shelter and the weather kept them from planting.After two years their homes were built and crops were planted. That is a big difference where they could survive on their own.

      • Bruce D.

        I agree with you on one point Dave. The American heritage does not make sense to progressives. They belive in the collective and any “facts” presented to them in opposition is considered spin. No one is saying you cannot change the Constitution with an Amendment Dave. We just do not like it being done by judges and government lobbyists.

      • john

        Would you be so kind as to cite your source quoting Rand Paul wanting to remove the entire 14th amendment? Seems to me you might be stretching the truth a bit. Maybe even telling direct lie.

      • Vigilant

        Dave said, “but if the Constitution is perfection in writing then why did it take amendments to the Constitution to allow women to vote or to abolish slavery. That is just proof that it’s a living document.”

        Who said that the original articles and Bill of Rights was “perfect?” To be sure, it left the institution of slavery intact, knowing full well it would cause a civil war at some later date. And other issues such as women’s right to suffrage, were not considered. You’ll find no one arguing that the original was “perfect.”

        But so what? The beauty of that document was that it left up to the sovereign people of the nation to modify its provisions through the process of amendment. And, those sovereign individuals, not government or any other power, revised the Constitution over time to make it more just.

        You are confusing the meaning of the phrase “living document” with the way that phrase is used today. When liberals use the term, they mean that we don’t have to consider the document to be strictly interpreted, but that we can feel free to apply to liberal feelings social justice, international protocols and agreements when adjudicating.

        Conservatives are “strict constructionists” of Constitutional letter and intent. Justices Scalia, Alito, Thomas and Roberts are the more or less strict constructionists in interpreting Constitutional law. Ruth Bader-Ginsberg is notorious for dispensing with almost any reference to the Constitution in her boneheaded rulings, as are a large number of Circuit Court judges (re: 9th Circuit).

        It has been largely through the perception that the Constitution is a “living document” that individual rights have been denied, and that the intrusive government has become even larger and even more intrusive.

      • iowaheretic

        Dave, I agree with you. He also forgot to mention that the great Pilgrims (Puritans) burned innocent women and men alive simply for using freewill and freethought (witchcraft), and a lot of christians don’t know this, but they actually outlawed the celebration of Christmas to be practiced in the Colonies for almost 200 years! I could care less about the fake birth of Jesus, but I don’t see why anyone would want to use these people as any kind of role models

      • Vicki

        iowaheretic says:
        “Dave, I agree with you. He also forgot to mention that the great Pilgrims (Puritans) burned innocent women and men alive simply for using freewill and freethought (witchcraft), and a lot of christians don’t know this, but they actually outlawed the celebration of Christmas to be practiced in the Colonies for almost 200 years! I could care less about the fake birth of Jesus, but I don’t see why anyone would want to use these people as any kind of role models”

        Liberals murder people every day and you want us to hold them up as role models?

        Or perhaps you are confusing the acts of a few in a group with the entire group? Not surprising. People do it all the time.

      • iowaheretic

        Vicki; James Arness and Lemmy Kilmister are my only role models.

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        Robert:
        You are one misguieded person and as a few people pointed out you seem to be a product of our misguided public education sytem . You are wrong in all of your statement’s and perhap’s as sugested you might be happyier someplace elese. As well is Ann Woods maybe you two should go together and find some place that would suit you better .I doubt you would be able to have any of your wrong and misguied opinions as you can here but at least you wouldnt be here . People like you are what is wrong with this country even though you are aloud to have your opinions and thought’s it is better to remember children are better off being seen than heard sometimes and this time I think that best applies to you two …

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Robert,

        While we value dissenting opinion, your ad hominem attacks and name calling are not appreciated. I am glad that you are a subscriber to Personal Liberty Digest, but I’m terribly sorry that you are so bitter. I do believe that if you will continue to read the content that appears here you will find that, though times are bad, hope does exist. I will remain optimistic that you can learn a better way than the path you have been following. However, I must insist that you confine yourself to discussing the merits of ideas and refrain from mindless name-calling. Please take my suggestions as constructive, and thanks so much for your consideration.

        All the best,
        Bob

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Where is your outrage and concern, Bob Livingston, when posts attack Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Obama, through lies, misquotes, misspellings, and ad hominem attacks? I have been offended, many times, by the posts here. These posts, show the hypocrisy, of all the one-sided arguments of the conservative posters, when they want to ignore legitimate facts.

        Where is the outrage, when Chip Wood says, “Until next time, keep some powder dry.”
        Keep some powder dry for whom? Maybe me, since I don’t agree with conservative principles?

        Facts are not stubborn things, they are real, tangible truths, to be embraced, studied, and used for better decisions tomorrow.

        Ellen Goodman said: “There is a sense that we don’t need science or editing or fact-checking, as long as we have crowd sourcing. We don’t have to build opinion on facts; we can build facts on opinions.”

        Facts should not be twisted, misquoted, or used out of context, to further the ideals and beliefs, of a single party–Democrat, or Republican.

      • Vicki

        Very good Robert. We knew you could do it. Your response to Bob is a good example of disagreement without any name calling.

        Now for practice give us ONE twisted fact (your opinion at least) and we will see if we can help un-twist it.

      • Jana

        Vicki,
        Personal Liberty said that Robert goes by Robert, TRUTH, Third Party, Roberts Mom, and booker.
        There really must be something wrong with a person that is working so hard to be this deceptive. He isn’t all there, and at best he is a liar. He carries on conversations with himself. We are asked to ignore him.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        Jana; Do you have access to Personal Liberties files to be able to make that claim? I didn’t know we could do that?

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “I have been offended”

        Correct you CHOSE to be offended. Stop it.

      • Vicki

        Jana says:
        “Personal Liberty said that Robert goes by Robert, TRUTH, Third Party, Roberts Mom, and booker.”

        Someone posting claiming to be Personal Liberty Support made such an assertion. I have not seen validation yet.

      • libertytrain

        Vicki – it was Personal Liberty Support – Bob let’s them answer these things when necessary – as well. I still believe there is two working this name right now -

      • Mr. P

        Robert, you have to actually be able to read, and also understand what you are reading. Ellen Goodman is just another commie-pinko-bedwetting socialist like your self.. Always looking for a handout from the working class in the USA.

        I bet you could get a job as a TSA agent, groping young girls and old men.

      • Mr. P

        Its always entertaining to hear from Robert. He continues to show the rest of the world how ignorant liberals are. I guess he was educated in Kalifornia.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Where do you find that the Bible allows slavery? Now telling the stories of old when they had slaves, does not say for us to have slaves does it? Most of the people in the Bible they refer to as slaves, were the people that worked for someone. And there were the Israelites who were slaves of the Egyptians, as their punishment for be disobediant to God. When you chose to sin, you pay. Its your choice, and a righteous God will punish you, as would your earthly father when you do wrong. But in no way, shape, or form, does it say to go make slaves of others. No sir. On the contrary, it says “Love your neighbor as yourself.” I think that shows your statement to be in error, for if you do this, as Jesus has told us to do, you cannot make a slave out of someone. Your statement is in error.

    • Frank

      I take it your one of the receivers and not one of the givers.

      • Vigilant

        …and an ignorant one to boot!

      • Vicki

        With really poor debating skills :)

      • Angel Wannabe

        Vigilant, he was the Scrooge pithing and moaning on the PL Thanksgiving thread yesterday too!__He Seems miserable, unhappy and lonely.

      • http://randall701jen@charter.net Working Man

        Thanks to the dumbing down of America by acedemia, and
        aided by the media and of course Holloywood keeping the
        dumbed downed distracted by shinny objects (who is going
        to win American Idol, or the lattest gossip on some A-list
        celerbity) this natiol will have more receivers than givers.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Thats because we live in a “me” generation. All the last couple of generations care about, is themselves, whats in it for them, and how much can they get for themselves, and how fast can they get it. Such a destructive behavioral pattern. Its the same path Satan has walked down first, gratifying himself and trying to place his own importance above that of God, until his lousy butt got thrown out of heaven with a third of the angels who went bad with him. There are always followers of this bad behavior, and they all lead down the wrong road, and destroy those who practice this life style, and they drag down many along their way. Its not the way to be. Just as the example set before us, Jesus came here to serve us, and gave His life for us. Not to see how much He could get and take for Himself. He gave Himself up for us. Just maybe if we got back on the right track, and we all started giving more of ourselves for the benefit of others, we just might find a better place we are living in. But since the earth is Satan’s playground, I dont really think it will happen here. But still, I for one, will try.

    • Bruce D.

      Yes Ann, that is the Progressive idea that man is too dangerous to be free. That government as a collective knows what is best and should work to bring the individual under control. Freedom is much too dangerous a concept to be allowed. I think the whole theme of Thanksgiving and the American heritage somehow bypassed your consciousness Ann.

      • Vicki

        If our Constitution needs a moral and religious people just imagine what kind of Gods among men would be needed to properly steer a collective. :)

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