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A Minority of One

September 2, 2010 by  

A Minority of One

As President Barack Obama continues to transform the United States into a socialist hell, yet another poke in the eye is the National Mediation Board’s recent proposal to make it easier for airline and railroad workers to unionize.

For 75 years the rule has been that in order for any class of workers (e.g., pilots) employed by an airline or railroad to unionize, a majority of all employees in that class have to vote for unionization. But the proposed new rule would require only that a majority of employees who actually vote on the question of unionization would be needed to unionize.

All Democrats love unions; Republican progressives love unions; and even many conservatives believe that a worker should be allowed to join a union voluntarily, so long as those who do not want to join the union are not forced to do so.

Which probably makes me a minority of one. Why? Because not only do I believe that workers do not have a right to unionize a company through tyranny of the majority, I don’t believe that any worker has a right to join a union without the consent of his employer.

It is a basic tenet of libertarian-centered conservatism that without property rights, no other rights are possible. Unfortunately, most people do not understand this fundamental concept. They view property only as inanimate matter, separate and apart from a person’s life. They cannot seem to make the connection between the two.

In actual fact, they are so connected that one is virtually an extension of the other. How can one separate a person’s life from his property? If you took everything that an individual owned, the fact is that he would not own his own life because whenever he attempted to create something for his personal gain, the fruits of his labor could again be confiscated.

The same is true of purchasing property. The money used to make a purchase presumably was earned through the purchaser’s efforts. That makes the money an extension of his life and, therefore, the same would be true of anything purchased with that money. No matter what the circumstances, when a person’s property rights are violated, his freedom is violated.

A libertarian-centered conservative (i.e., a true conservative) believes that no one has a right to any other person’s property, which includes both his body and everything he owns. Once this concept is understood it would be proper to say that, in reality, all crime is based on trespassing on the property of an owner.

When people make “humanitarian” statements about human rights being more important than property rights they are, in a sense, correct. That’s because human rights include property rights, as well as all other rights of man.

A man has the right to dispose of his life and his property in any way he chooses, without interference from others. By the same token, he has no right to dispose of any other person’s life or property, no matter what his personal rationalizations may be.

As explained in The Fundamentals of Liberty by Robert LeFevre, there are only three possible ways to view property:

  1. Anyone may take anyone else’s property whenever he pleases.
  2. Some people may take the property of other people whenever they please.
  3. No one may ever take anyone else’s property without his permission.

It is self-evident to anyone who believes in individual liberty that the only morally valid way to view property is No. 3. Likewise, no one has a right to tell a property owner (property being land, buildings, a business or anything else that a person may own) what he can or cannot do with his property.

Take a business, for example. It belongs to the owner, whether he started the business himself or bought it from someone else. No one has a right to take any part of someone else’s business, nor do they have a right to tell him what he can and cannot do with his business.

If a business is a public company, it is the property of a large number of people (shareholders). Thus, size is irrelevant when it comes to property rights. When property rights are violated against a multinational corporation as opposed to a mom-and-pop business, it simply means that far more people become victims of government aggression. It is a moral absurdity to believe that bigness validates aggression.

Therefore, as a minority of one, I am compelled to say that regardless of the size of a business, the only way unionization is morally valid is if the owner of that business voluntarily agrees to it. Why? Because it’s his business! It’s his property! And it is his human right to set the rules for his own property!

In a truly free society, a worker has one inalienable, overpowering right with regard to his job: He can quit at any time. He is not a slave, so his employer cannot chain him to his work. If he wants to belong to a union he is free to search for employment with a company that allows workers to unionize.

The fact that many people reading this article will find my comments to be extreme speaks only to how far down the road toward socialism we have traveled. We no longer respect property rights, especially when the property is a business. Generations have been brainwashed into believing that abstract notions such as “the good of society” and “social justice” are more important than private ownership.

The proposed new ruling by the National Mediation Board opens a debate over the issue of whether 75 percent of the overall majority of workers in a given class should be required to unionize an airline or railroad, or just 75 percent of those who actually participate in voting on the question. But, in reality, the debate is nothing more than a distraction. The real debate should be over whether or not employees should be allowed to unionize at all without the consent of the owner.

This is precisely the kind of issue that has caused conservatives to lose their way over the years. Until politicians have the courage to confront an issue such as unionization head on and stop buying into debates about whether to move further to the left or stick to what has become the status-quo left, America will continue its acceleration toward total collapse — both morally and economically.

It will be interesting to see if anyone reading this article has a strong enough belief in the absolute sanctity of property rights to agree with what I’ve said here. That would be nice, because it would instantly elevate me to the status of being part of a minority of two.

–Robert Ringer

Robert Ringer

is a New York Times #1 bestselling author and host of the highly acclaimed Liberty Education Interview Series, which features interviews with top political, economic, and social leaders. He has appeared on Fox News, Fox Business, The Tonight Show, Today, The Dennis Miller Show, Good Morning America, The Lars Larson Show, ABC Nightline, and The Charlie Rose Show, and has been the subject of feature articles in such major publications as Time, People, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Barron's, and The New York Times. To sign up for his one-of-a-kind, pro-liberty e-letter, A Voice of Sanity, Click Here.

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  • Bill

    There is a movie call Bonfire Of The Vanities in which Morgan Freeman, who plays a judge, comes down from the bench after being accused of being a racist by the “mob” in the courtroom for dismissing a case against someone who clearly didn’t commit the crime, admonishes people to go home and be “decent people” and, if you don’t know what that means, ask you grandmother. What has happened to decency in all of us? What is the future for us as human beings when decency is lost? That said, I guess I don’t have an answer….only a question and a plea. Who’d have guessed Rodney King would be so profound? “Why can’t we all just get along?”

    • DaveH

      It all depends on who defines the word “decency”.

  • Jerry M

    I have worked for a major airline for ten years. The union weather it likes it or not,enables complacent and lazy workers. Like our Gov.,they are corrupt with no means to control them.

    Property rights need to stay with the person not the group of persons to override the individual.

  • Karolyn

    Unions are the only way employees can be insured that they will be trated fairly. Here in the South “union” is a dirty word. The powers-that-be want to keep the “slaves” in their places. “If you don’t like it, you’re out.” I was told that whenever any talk of unionization is heard at the local WalMart a team of union “hitmen” is immediately dispatched by jet from Arkansas to our little airport. And we all KNOW how fair WalMart is!

    • Matt V

      wal-mart isnt the same and they have paid dearly for it too because of past lawsuits but again it goes to the fact that wal mart chose to be non union and to be forced to unionized that is anti freedom. besides with social medicine that the democraps passed they have to have benefits now so if you still dont like so if the Unions still dont like it. the unions can discuss it with that union baby sitter idiot in the white house oh dont forget the bobsey twins pelosi and reid.

    • Joyce from Loris

      I have worked in the south for 40 years, and never under a union. I worked at DuPont for 15 years, at AAI for 10 years. I was always given fair treatment, wonderful benefits and very good wages, all without the help of a union. Yes, the word UNION is a dirty word in the south. We do not take kindly to others taking OUR MONEY for doing nothing. Southern people are pretty good about taking care of themselves. It’s all the people who MOVE here from somewhere else, who are use to having someone else pay them for not working, give them food stamps, etc., that cause the most problems. We Southern people, the REAL southern people, are pretty good at taking care of business.

      • Smilee

        Check the labor department website and you will find that union employees average nationally $800,00 per month more than non union employees, the dues are a fraction of that. Say your dues are $50.00 a month and you put your dues in a savings account on the first of the month and the first of the next month your balance has increased from $50.00 to $800.00 giving you a very high rate of return, well that is what your dues gets you based on actual labor statistics. My corporate pension is alps a lot bigger, a little over $1000.00 per month more than the non union employees where I worked and my wages were higher also so my SS is also higher, do the math!!

    • 45caliber

      Karolyn:
      If you are here in the South and trying to unionize, perhaps you should go back to Michigan where they think unions are so great. Of course, you will likely not be able to find a job there ….

  • Mick

    American says:
    September 2, 2010 at 9:47 am
    Not everyone can get a union job but they may work just as hard, actually harder. All that is beside the point of the article. Forced unions are no different than government takeovers except that the government only gets their share at election time.
    *********************************************
    American,,,You’re right on target……..Unions members are forced to go on strike when told and careful if you cross the line,this thug mentality is very harmful to everyone and the take over of our freedom is not far away with this type of practices…
    And what about the amount of money employee’s get when force to strike ?
    Do you people think that the heads of the Unions would settle for that ?

    • 45caliber

      Sadly, I know of cases where people were killed during union strikes. And the agreement with the company to get things back to work is that no one will attempt to locate the murderer. The government agrees as well.

      Personally, if someone murders then they should receive punishment for it. If a member of my family is killed by a union member, then you can bet I want that murderer punished. And (I’m an Arkansas hillbilly even though I’m also a college graduate) if the government agrees to not find and punish the murderer, I will. Unfortunately for the union officials, they will have to take the brunt until one tells me who the murderer is.

      • ARN001

        Absolutely agree

      • ARN001

        1 at a time till all is revealed–no mercy

  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    Unions had a place in our history and were an important part of capitalism in our country. They corrected a lot of wrongs and were instrumental in employee rights and laws to protect workers. However, the pendulum has swung too far. They have become greedy and now make demands that exceed the need for them to be there. I was forced to join a food workers union 25 years ago. I didn’t have a choice. If wanted a job with this company I had to join. Never mind that I was only a part time worker, and only worked a few hours a week. My dues were the same as the full time workers, making my first encounter with unions a bad experience. Now, Washington is in so tight with the unions, they bail out failing companies to make sure the unions get their share first. Ludicrous. Their function has ceased to be that of good and has crossed the line….

  • Matt V

    Teamsters are crooks

    • ARN001

      yes, and crooks are teamsters

  • Helen Satmary

    When unions put business OUT of business how does that help the employee. Does anyone remember how many newspapers we used to have before the union force them out of business. How much does a automobile cost today, thanks to the unions. Employees must be treated fairly but there has to be some other answer. Unions for the most part are not the answer. They reminds me of the mafia only legal. They ruin free enterprize whenever and wherever they can. Look how they are strong arming us now. They protect Obama and Obama protects them. Thank you Obama. Union representation. No PEOPLE representation as you might expect of a true President of the United States.

    • Matt V

      unions are the main reason american auto companies are unable to sustain themselfs now and the idiot bailing them out didnt help either. Point GMC gets bailout money so they wouldnt go bankrupt after recieveing the bailout they bankrupt anyway.Ford did somthing right they barely hanged on but i think they survived off of GMs demise.

      • Karolyn

        Uh, apparently, the American automakers are doing pretty well right now.

      • Craig

        The reason they are doing better is not because of the unions. Unions have NEVER helped a company prosper. Just like socialism has never made a country or nation better.

      • wavesofgrain

        I agree, Craig. I have a (very) small business (private sector) and get to watch the union retirees living in the lap of luxury with our bailout money. They are all younger than I, retiring at 55 or less. I can never retire, as I have to produce, keep those taxes paid to support the public sector, welfare recipients and unemployment. This last teacher bailout really burned me. Unions have no use in this society anymore. Look at Greece. Rioting in the streets as the economy collapses. Setting fire to banks, which resulted in deaths. Protesting also resulted when cuts to bloated public sector and unions were announced.

        http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-05-05-greece-strike-crisis_N.htm

        “”"”Papandreou won an election last year pledging to tax the rich and help the poor but has come under increasing pressure since his government announced Greece’s 2009 budget gap was would be twice previous estimates and four times the EU ceiling.”"”"

        This is why Hillary Clinton is on a mission on behalf 0f Obama to find a way to ban all our guns. They must be sure there will be no threat of civil war when they throw the final curtain on Americans…communist sheeple with no rights and a dictator. Watch out…after our guns are banned, the big punch will knock the wind out of us all.

      • Mike Purdin

        lol myself after having a couple gm vehicles i would rather buy ford

    • 45caliber

      Helen:
      One reason that unions remind you of the mafia is that in earlier days unions were run by the mafia. They brought it a lot of cash and any criminal group wants in on that. The union tactics were developed by the mafia and are used today – regardless of who runs the unions now.

  • Patty Kelly

    Unions were needed decades ago, but now their only function is to lobby politicians and argue for over the top wages and benefits (when compared to the more realistic private sector). There are many laws on the books to protect employee’s rights, and organizations like OSHA handle safety. Unions have become part of the political wheel which is destroying our individual liberties.

    • Karolyn

      Obsiously, there are not enough laws when an employer can fire you just because you have opposing political, religious, or any other views. And don’t be fooled – they can!

      • Craig

        Nobody is forcing you to display your political views at work. You are there to work. Keep your personal stuff to yourself and the boss will not know what your political affiliations are to fire you. Hell, nobody is forcing you to work there either. The boss makes the rules, that’s why he is the boss.

      • Karolyn

        So it’s OK if he fires you after seeing you going into a synagogue or bar? If you have a bumper sticker on your car he doesn’t like? If he thinks you’re too short, tall, fat, skinny, bald, hairy, ugly or cute?

      • ARN001

        Thats not a ‘Boss’, Karolyn, thats an ‘ex’ boss.

      • 45caliber

        Karolyn:

        Here in the South your boss can fire you at will. And you can quit at will. What is the difference? On the other hand, it takes about a year to train someone to do his job as good as possible – even if you know the skill you will need when you get the job.

        Most employers know that the first year you work you will not do as good a job as you will later. And most are willing to ignore your personal decisions (yes, even being gay) to keep a good employee rather than hire someone else they have to pay.

        In most cases I’ve seen, the worker may insist that he was fired because he was of a different political party than the boss or because he was gay. In actual fact, he didn’t work very hard and had other problems at work that his boss decided were too much to deal with. Such as a gay worker who kept propositioning the other workers. Or a worker who was harassing a woman for sex. And even in non-union sites, the boss must have reams of evidence as to why the worker should be fired before it is done.

      • libertytrain

        You are particularly correct with your assessment of the mounds of paperwork needed to fire someone and why. I once worked for some Germans who had escaped the Berlin Wall and lived in “free” Germany till they moved to the USA. I loved one aspect of their style, if they had a crappy worker, they just fired him. Didn’t care about the paperwork and actually were very fair. Gave good wages and increases but got rid of you if you were even lazy, not just incompetent. There were no sick days or excessive holiday pay but they had been so abused in Germany as employers by the government regulations on six week vacations and the like that they stuck to their guns as to what they were going to do here.

      • JeffH

        Karolyn, workers are “protected” by federal and state laws for unlawful discharge. Ever hear of the NLRB?(National Labor Relations Board)? If one is willing to give up without a fight, they deserve what they get. There are a certain set of “rules” to protect oneself from unlawful discharge and it behoves everybody who feels threatened by an employer or a union to find out what they are and how to use rhem. Pretty simple process though, it only take a pad of paper, a pencil and a calendar and timepiece.

      • Karolyn

        It is not unlawful in South Carolina to fire someone just because you don’t like his face, so there really is no recourse unless you are in a protected class; which, by the way, I would be as a 63 year old woman.

      • ARN001

        I have worked in the Carolinas several times (I build Power Plants) and I saw no difference in hiring practices or the procedural demands placed on ‘management’ to facilitate the removal from the workforce of an ‘undesirable’ person who has demonstrated a (documented) lack of ‘acceptable performance’ or an attitude/work ethic not commensurate with stated performance/productivity goals required, and enumerated, PRIOR to hire.
        If I am ever fired because ‘he didnt like my face’, he wont like his when my day is done.
        I am allowed to protect myself, as are you.
        You are 63 years old, I believe that to be a considerable advantage.
        Good luck to you in your final working years, and, im certain, your face is just fine :)

    • DaveH

      Patty, Unions were never “needed”. That was Depression Era Propaganda. Unions have always been force, both against the company and against the employees.
      Here is a good book (and it’s free) which discusses the causes of the Great Depression:
      http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf

      • Karolyn

        Well, somebody was needed to organize the workers so they weren’t brutalized and abused as they were prior to unionization.

  • Awokenone

    Consider yourself a minority of two! I agree 100% Part of employment is that a person is hired / agrees to do what the property / company owner asks them to do “while on the clock” for some type of compensation in return. If that compensation is not enough, or you cannot or will not do as asked, then one surly has the right to leave. That means that the property owner has the right to not compensate you to form or be part of a union while on his time.

    • Mike Purdin

      there are times companies misuse their employees, i am a non union electrician and good at my job, but when i started as a helper i did the grunt work my electrician did the technical work plus help on some grunt work, not me as a electricain today maybe digging while a helper is working in a panel, something wrong with that picture. unions have helped but they have abused their power and some companies will abuse their power. if i don’t like way company treats me i keep working and look for another job while i am. because i will question my employer why on things and ask for raise also , but if i don’t like answer i can find another job, but bad thing is almost impossibl;e in this economy right now

      • ARN001

        Helper in the panel, you digging the ditch…. c’mon….is he bigger than you or what?

  • DAVID

    If unions were so wonderful, there would be no need to sneak a law through,somewhere, to force people to join them. Over the last 40 years I’ve been on both sides of the issue several times. If you want to smoke or do drugs, go ahead, but NOT on my property. If you want to join a union and rent a job, go ahead, but NOT at my business, period!

    • wavesofgrain

      I agree, David. I also think that unions should NOT be allowed in any public sector job…any job paid for by our tax dollars. Union jobs especially do NOT belong in government! I resent my tax dollars used for a government/state/municiapl union employee.

      • 45caliber

        I definately agree!

      • American Citizen

        Right on!

      • ARN001

        Amen

  • Phil

    Even with a union, companies aren’t required to negotiate. They only must do so “in good faith”. If companies reach impasse with unions, then they can impose whatever their demands are. It’s simple as that.

    It’s also simple as companies knowing that they usually underpay people for work that is literally invaluable to the company. Just as employees can walk away, so can employers find new employees. They don’t because it costs them too much, because people learn how to do their jobs better and that benefits the company. Making someone pay for benefit they get from labor isn’t immoral – it’s in fact stealing someone’s labor to get it and keep it far below market value to the purchaser (employer).

    After all, let’s look at this big-picture. If my property is equal to my life through the equation of property rights that you’ve worked out here, then the labor that gets me to that is as well. If someone owns a business, they own my labortime as a means of production toward products to which I have no rights as the *actual* producer on the factory floor. What does that mean?

    It means that I am agreeing to give you my labor (my property) and the products of my labor (my property) for a fee. If that fee is too low, and you refuse to give me more, then I should be able to leave. Right? Well, that’s what a union does – only the whole factory does it and not just one guy.

    All a union is is people realizing their collective value and asking to be paid it. It’s that simple. Would a factory that refuses unionization prefer that everyone walk off the job at once as individuals who will never come back? Or as people with whom they can negotiate, get the best deal, and everyone gets back to work?

    You conservatives are so ideologically programmed to see “property” as only tangible that you are unable to see when laborer’s property rights are violated, as well.

    Get a clue.

    • Gary

      You need to get a clue.
      Just because you are an organized group what gives you the right to bully the business owner into paying you what ever you want. If it was up to the employee to decide his own wages the business could never survive. That sort of reminds me of Congress voting themselves a raise when they are already overpaid.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        What gives the business owner, the right to pay an unlivable wage? Why should 5 or 6 people work, for a business owner, and he’s the only one who can afford health care? Unions protect the workers, from being slaves.

      • eddie47d

        Thanks Phil and Robert

      • DaveH

        Because, Robert, it is his money. If you don’t like the offered deal, decline it.
        Or you could take the Liberal way and use Government as your Bully Boy to force him to pay you what you think you’re worth, and then when he goes out of business whine about all the companies that are going overseas.

      • ARN001

        Thank you, btw, read the posts again and tell me how many times this same common sense answer has been posted. Some ppl dont Want to ‘get it’.

    • ValDM

      Glad you think we just don’t have a clue. What put me off of unions was when they took my dues, established a PAC for only dem candidates and mandated I vote for only those candidates they endorsed. Not only do they coerce the employer, but the employee as well.

      • 45caliber

        You are right. Another reason I don’t like them.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        The “Dems” are the only ones who care about workers. Do you really think, McConnell, or Boehner has any regard for you?

      • 45caliber

        The Dems gave up caring about the workers when they discovered minority groups. Why do you think the South went from Dem to GOP since the 60′s?

      • ARN001

        yeh, what he said.

      • eddie47d

        ValDM;No one can mandate you to vote for a political candidate.

    • DaveH

      That’s some pretty heavy rationalization, Phil. If the workers feel their labor is worth more, they are free to go elsewhere or start their own companies.
      The bottom line. Do you want to live in a country where the people have voluntary choices? Or do you want to live in a country where the peoples’ choices are dictated by Goverment Gangs or Union Gangs?
      I choose voluntary.

    • http://STREAMENERGY Clem

      yOU ARE ONLY PARTLY CORRECT I PICKED COTTON FOR 25CENTS A HUNDRED WEIGHT RIGHT BESIDE PEOPLE (MEX.) I WORKED HARDER ANMOST OF THE i MADE TWICE AS MUCH. tHE mEX WERE PUTTING rocks in their sack and caught. docked for the $ and fired the next tIme. GET REAL PEOPLE.

  • Al Sieber

    Be prepared to kill to protect your property, before you become someone else’s property.

    • Craig

      Amen to that. The time is getting closer to protect yourself and property.

      • JRC

        lol this comment is so hilarious I will laugh for hours…defend from Who? The government? Good luck and many wet dreams. If you for one second believe you can protect “”your”" property from the rightful owner…the government you are wrong….remember YOU do NOT own the property, you only lease it…stop paying taxes and you will find out pretty fast who really “”OWNS”" this property…and you will have NO chance in hell to defend it.

      • Al Sieber

        JRC, one can damn well try, rather then become a slave like you think, people should just give up then, well no way pal.

      • Matt

        I hate to say it but I agree. I am a SMALL business owner. I have worked in China and other places. I have come to realize that this is true. I pay 3% property taxes… i.e. I buy it back from the government every 30 years. In China you can get a 50 year lease on property for less than you would have to pay for it, so there is really not much difference. The real problem we have in the US is who can buy property here. ANYBODY FROM ANYWHERE. That puts a big strain on developing businesses of US citizens. People from all over the world come here and buy property with money made on the backs of slave labor. They don’t have the same work place guidelines that we have to follow. So this in fact drives property prices up as has happened in recent years. So the local working people here can not compete to pay the high prices for property that foreign buyers have pushed upward. Many of them often get tax exemptions that we can not. Most other countries require citizenship to buy real property; that should be the case here. Countries do that to protect the citizens, but our lawmakers really don’t care. Well I have to go back to work. A good day to all.

      • American Citizen

        I’ve been wondering how the Muslims were able to buy that property close to the where the World Trade Centers came down in order to build a Mosque there.

      • DaveH

        The government, the rightful owner? Not in this country. Not yet, at least. Cuba isn’t far away. Go there and live in your workers’ paradise.

      • http://STREAMENERGY Clem

        Im 83 yrs old and have seen nothing worse than a union controlled America I have seen it all I finnally moved from management to sales on commission.Unions in their efforts to controll. ran all the big companies off shore. pretty soon we will haVE ONLY SERVICE COMPANIES.

      • 45caliber

        JRC:
        So the government owns everything and you own nothing. I thought only Communist governments were that way but I guess I was wrong. But I will say that if someone from the government shows up to take something I spent part of my life to acquire, he and I are going to have some trouble.

      • eddie47d

        Matt; Thanks for reminding us how people from other countries can come to America and buy up land,buildings and other commodities and drive up prices for the rest of us.

      • Al Sieber

        45caliber, right on, not afraid. I’m not giving up nothing without a fight.

      • DaveH

        So, Eddie, those foreigners should sell us their products cheaply, then stuff the money in a mattress, so that they never collect on our debt? Yes, that would be nice for us. But Foolish for them.

      • eddie47d

        Dave H.: So these foreigners buy our buildings and farm land and send the profits home. That is hardly going to reduce our debt and they still control us.

  • Sean

    We are a minority of two

  • Cribster

    I work at a utility where we have an association (in-house union.) There is no bullying or coercion, they have brought much to the benefit of the emplyoees and they keep the upper echelon in check. There is no pressure to join and if the association misbehaves they will lose dues paying members.

    I think the problem is when unions get too big, they forget their purpose and become power mongers.

    The biggest problem we have here is the safety office. Ten years ago the was one man running the whole safety office, there is now an entire cabal, many are ex OSHA people who have nothing better to do than justify their positions. They completely defy common sense.

    Just one example is “hot work.” That is when you have to use welders or torches in vaults or underground. You have to set up a retrieval device to lift a person out of a hole if he passes out. The safety office deterined that if you even “break the plane”, which could be a hole two feet deep that you can step in and out of you have to set up the retrieval device which takes a man to oversee it, a fire watch supervisor, another supervisor in charge of the crew and the person to do the work.

    It quite often takes three times the amount of time to set up than it does to do the job.

    • Mike Purdin

      i worked at a local power plant here in southern ohio, i am a non union electrician and at this time there are more if not as much laid off union electricians as non union, but at the plant, the electricians who are union, who work for plant. make us work, because if they think the work is too hard or dirty or they just don’t want to do it then we get it which i am glad. but they can pick and chose if they want to work or not and the management can’t do a thing about it. and if they talk of moving a few to another plant because of lack of work then they scream why is my company in there if they don’t have the work for them. because we only do what they refuse to do. so we get opur work cut back and they still won’t do the jobs, until it builds back up and management has to get my company to do the work sad

      • 45caliber

        I have a friend that owns a construction company. He was hired to change out the metal siding on a long building. He figured it would take him three days and mentioned as much to the union official that was bringing him in.

        He was told to do only one bay (20 feet) a day. He was to spend as much time as he could on other things. He wasn’t to “embarrass” the other workers ther by getting more done. So he obeyed.

        A company engineer came down the last day and complimented him on his “fast” work. He told me he was so ashamed that he’d never take such a job again.

    • Mike Purdin

      and as far as the hot work and underground non union has to go thru same thing if you work for a good company but for us it has into a tank or underground vault or enclosed area, but same set up takes time but i would rather make sure if something happen can get whoever is in there out without maybe getting someone else hurt or killed

    • JeffH

      A given with unions, union dues,fines, fees and assesments. Try not paying your union dues, get fined, don’t pay the fines and dues, get pulled off of the job and possibly not ever get that job back. I’ve seen it first hand and the union isn’t always the good guy. But hey, a majority of everyone thought Obama was a good guy too. It’s not always what it seems to be.

  • Mick

    Hflashman says:
    But then…it will be interesting to see how many come out and union bash on today’s thread. And to read the ignorance and robotic rantings…

    ****************************
    Unions are now a thorn in America’s side and are digging a hole so big that they will bury our country,,
    Hflasman, talk about robotic, the Unions push the button and here you go with you parroting,
    Mobster behavioris not good for a decent society period…!

    • eddie47d

      Some unions are as bad as their corporate partners in the world . The conversation should be about getting rid of the bad apples in both and be more focused on the well being of all workers.

  • American

    Hflashman, could it be that the rise of employees being replaced by computers may have something to do with the cost of keeping employees in a union situation? After all, when a union member makes four times as much in compensation as a non-union member makes and you multiply that by all employees within a business, and add in all the other benefits, it beomes harder to make a profit (and stay in business) and some of those jobs have to be cut. My husband was a member of the Teemsters 20 years ago. It was great that his paycheck was higher than he’d ever had before but I didn’t feel it was right even then. His insurance plan almost completely covered the $72,000 in fertility treatments I needed to have a baby. Lucky me, but still not right. That money could have paid the salary of two or three more employees to run the business. Layoffs came when my son was two months old (no surprise there) and my husband ended up having to find another, lower paying job. We suffered, the business suffered, but the union went on thriving. What does that tell you? If you think unions are fair for everyone, tell me if you think it’s fair for those who aren’t employed by big businesses that don’t have union participation. What about the guy working his butt off at the landscape supply store down the street or the cooks in the whole-in-the-wall diner two blocks away? Not everyone can get a union job but they may work just as hard, actually harder. All that is beside the point of the article. Forced unions are no different than government takeovers except that the government only gets their share at election time.

    • valricoslash

      The last sentence says it all.

      Additionally, the unions have become an extension of the democaratic party. Without the unions the big money they contribute from the workers’ dues, the democracts would be reduced to a second rate party. And without the protection of the democratic party, theunions would cease to exist, at least in the corporate form they have today.

      Today, big unions are nothing more than the big corporations they lock horns with. Their leaders are nothing more than corporate CEOs with six figure incomes gained on the backs of the “little guys and gals” they squeeze money from under the guise of “helping” them. The article is right. You can form an union if you want, but if you don’t like the paycheck or work conditions, or whatever the ower provides, you then have option to quit and go somewher else. To me striking is nothing more than quitting and should be treated as such. Ronald Reagan proved that with the air traffic controllers, none of which were rehired.

      The only reason GM did not go under was the fact that Obama owed the UAW, and saving GM was his payback. The unions need the proposed rule changes and cardcheck to exist. Their membership is shrinking at a rapid pace as companies move to right-to-work states or shift their production to Mexico (the UAW rally helped their members there–right?)and China.

      You would think that states like Michigan, New York, etc. would get the hint, but their Democrat controlled legislatures just on’t get it. they would rather have the union money line their pockets then put people back to work in their states. Just look at the unemployment numbers. I don’t think the UAW controlled Michagan has anything to brag about.

    • 45caliber

      I agree. I know one business owner in this area that makes less profit (and pay) per month than his lowest waged employee. If he is forced to unionize and pay more, he will have to go out of business. He doesn’t mind getting less at the moment because he is his own boss. But not if unions come in.

    • eddie47d

      American;Nice of you to take advantage of the union with so much remorse. There are many smaller unions that the cooks and landscapers could join. But they get paid so little and aren’t willing to pay any dues for little gain.

  • egore

    I think it is taking it one step too far when you say the employer has to give permission for a union to exist. What is a union? What if the workers got together in a bar after work and discussed their job? What if they all decided to quit en masse? Is this a union action? Can a union be secret? You might say an employer has the right to not recognize a union and only deal with the individual worker, but as for permission to organize, that would be thought and speech control. Course I have always been an advocate of being able to fire at will.

    • http://none Jeff Hanks

      if the employer had to give permission for a union to be then there would be no unions. You probably owe a lot to unions like safe working conditions, workers rights, breaks, a reasonable wage and a minimum wage. You people have no idea what the world would look like if it wasn’t for unions and workers rights. Slavery would be here and most of us would be slaves. Many people have to keep their job because they are stuck paying a mortgage they can’t afford and cannot move anywhere. Also the job pool has shrunk drastically because of the greed and power of corporations and the mistakes of governments. Canada has a 50% + 1 policy of the PEOPLE WHO VOTE. If 51% of the people who vote want the union then it is in. Say what you want about Canada but we are in a good financial position because our financial industry and mortgage industries had a bit tighter regulations on them than in the U.S. and this was done by a liberal party while the conservatives wanted to deregulate banks. I would gladly join a union but I would try to make it my union one that makes it a better workplace for all and not one that takes advantage of the employer.

      • eddie47d

        Also the unions gave us the 40 hour work week and 5 days of work. Now that is family values.

  • Terry

    Well, you’re in the minority of two. I wholeheartedly agree with you. At one point in our history, unions seemed to do a good thing, i.e. better wages, better working conditions, etc. In our modern age, however, unions harm everyone. They increase the cost of business (already being thugged by ridiculous taxes and regulations) to the point where profits are difficult to make. Everyone then wonders why everything is made in China, and there are no jobs here.
    Am I the only one putting two and two together?
    Nobody should have the right to extort their employer. If you do not like anything about your job, you are welcome to find another one. The company should not have to relocate to avoid “petty communism”. I grew up in Michigan (where unions have devastated the economy), and now live in South Carolina (right to work state). We’re getting a lot of the jobs that would go elsewhere. Many of these companies tell the employees that if they try to unionize, the company is closed. The people stay and work- problem solved.
    I, for (two), agree.

    • marvin

      Alabama is a right to work state

      • DaveH

        Also Arizona.

      • 45caliber

        Most if not all the South are Right-To-Work states. Every time a union tries to come in, they are voted out. That is why they are trying to get Oblama and friends to pass the various bills they want forcing unionization of the South. And even in the North they are losing ground. They see all that money out there (union dues) just waiting to be snatched up IF they can get the government to force all workers to join.

      • eddie47d

        The standard of living and quality of life was much better in the North when there were jobs. The Right to Work committee encourages the right to pay less. Hardly a beacon of hope. The unions main job is to represent the workers but must reflect what is good (and affordable) for the employer. No union of any value should cause a business to cease to exist.

  • Warrior

    Ah yes, Unions, just a micro version of the big socialist experiment.

  • bob

    unions are no longer usefull. look at what happened to auto prices. they have to be so high to pay outragous saleries to those who belong to their unions. a person should be paid by the quality of their work, not by the way of strikes and intimidation.

    • EQ4ALL

      Bob,
      You comment on auto prices being so high due to the “outrageous salaries”(sic)paid the autoworkers. Since the recession began the autoworkers salaries and benefits have been reduced drastically. Bob, have you seen the prices reduced in comparison?? I think not…Just as when, in the early 1980′s manufacture of the Monte Carlo went to Mexico, with NO reduction in auto prices. You need to look elsewhere to find the real cause of high auto prices!
      Unions serve a very useful need in todays world.

      • thinking

        eq4all, just not all people.
        is that why the government owns GM and Chysler? The union pay and benifits were to low to compete? Odd that now the union is part owner of GM and prices havent dropped?

      • cella

        I know it is very sad at the thought of GM paying back and coming out a strong business in these tuff economic times. If it wern’t for Barack Obama a couple of million more people would be out of a job and on the evil unemployment line being told to go work at McDonalds. Saving GM and Saving jobs was a great accomplishment. In the Republican mood of letting companies fail that employ millions with all the companies that feed into that industry…It is a great accomplishment that the Republicans would WISH WOULD go away. They were keeping their fingers CROSSED that after the government bailed them out, THEY COULD HAVE FAILED. OH WHAT A HAYDAY THEY COULD HAVE HAD .

      • JeffH

        cella, haven’t heard from you in awhile. Still lickin’ Obama’s boots I see.

      • Pete from Australia

        Sorry Cella, you are so wrong! The government NEVER saves jobs. It creates NO jobs. Someone (maybe you) has to pay this bailout back. If your money was not employed boondoggling these inefficient enterprises, then the capital would then be employed more efficiently to PRODUCTIVE enterprise. So for every bailout there is a cost, paid for by you and other taxpayers.
        GM should have been allowed to fail. It had passed its use-by date. Shockingly overpaid management and staff and a product nobody wanted. Now you own it! Would you voluntarily have bought shares in this failed business model?
        My God, Russia got rid of central planning, you want it in the US? Land of the free?
        We have similar policies and ideologies here, and the dead hand of government basically tends to ruin everything it touches.
        I won’t get into the union versus employer debate, as I have been both, only to state that when I worked about 80% harder on one job than the unionised workforce I was hated.
        On the other hand I have had nasty, stupid bosses, but left when I really couldn’t stand them.
        On the other hand I’ve employed people, some good, some bad, some so exceptional they totally surprised me.
        Also when talking about unions, people forget the most powerful (like doctors, lawyers, dentists and even vets (I’m a soft touch got dog, cats and chickens)). Their charges are uniform here in Australia, and they are a significant cost (like $90 to declare my dog dead!!). They are called “professional associations” but act just like unions, with their standard charges!
        Anyway folks, love this site, and enjoy the conversations. I’m a committed freedom-seeker so now fly to Manila to a cheap dentist and have free holiday!

      • Joyce from Loris

        Not only are the union members now part owners of these companies… the STOCKHOLDERS of these companies got NOTHING for their stock! The government just took our shares from us, gave us NOTHING for them and then the rewards all went to the blasted UNION cartel.

      • DaveH

        They were losing money! Should they just keep paying exhorbitant wages and losing money? Would you want to own a company that is losing money?
        Unions and Big Government are driving our companies out of the country or into bankrupcy. Is that the way you want it?

      • clh

        The only purpose the unions serve today is to take dues from their members and put it into their own interests/pockets/ politics. Are you talking drastically reduced wages from $50 to $35 an hour, wish I could get my wages drastically reduced.

      • eddie47d

        clh; So much sarcasm! Where do you work and how do your wages compare to the work you are doing? Hard labor,pencil pusher,fast food?

      • 45caliber

        EQ4ALL:
        You are right. But the UNIONS are doing well on profits since Oblama turned ownership of GM over to them.

      • American Citizen

        GM want to close a stamping plant here in Indiana and a Michigan company wants to buy it. The workers there now make a base pay of $29.90 an hour. The new company wants to cut that in half. The union won’t let the workers vote on it. So it probably means the plant will close and those workers will be out of a job. They think they will be moved to another GM plant somewhere, but there are no guarantees. The company reps of the one wanting to buy the stamping plant said their workers in Michigan that have been there a few years earn at least $100,000 a year. Who is being screwed here.

  • Rose

    I agree 100%. Unions have far outlived their usefullness if they ever really had any. They are now responsible for the demise of numerous businesses. They are only there to take over someone elses hard work. I have been places where I worked hard and the person next to me did very little and they got paid the same as me cause
    they were union. I was forced into a union once and will never be again. My business is my business and you or the government or any
    union has the right to tell me who I can hire or fire or not hire and not fire.
    You are not a minority of one. There are at least two of us.

    • Bob

      Make that 3. The union reps care nothing about the little guy. I’ve worked in places where the union colluded with the company to keep our wages down. The teamsters were one of them.

      • wavesofgrain

        Number 4, here.

        Unions were needed before the government formed the ACLU, Labor Board, Osha, etc. Now, these government “Unions” are in charge of work safety, fair labor practices, etc etc. Unions should be abolished, and should not have any say in employers efficiency methods, such as how breaks are scheduled. I know one Union that went on strike because the employer would not let employees take breaks together, resulting in shutting down the line for each one, instead of keeping the line going with staggered breaks. Flexing their muscles to get deer hunting days and birthdays off…NEVER HAPPY. Our education system is a perfect example what happens when you unionize teachers.

      • ValDM

        Number 5 here. I used to live in both Texas and Oklahoma. Property rights there are practiced freely and unselfconciously. Property rights there are almost revered. Both are Right to Work states and those laws are enforced. I have been a union member three times in my more than 40 years of work. In the beginning it was a good thing, but far and away they are no longer useful.

      • Genn

        # 5 here!!!

        I guess unions had there place once upon a time but so did blood letting.
        I’m 54 and never worked for a Union and all has worked out just fine.

      • Earl, QUEENS, NY

        I hear you Bob!! I’ve also seen it more than once – collusion and sweetheart contract wages in my past union jobs. It gets worse though. I’ve had 2 positions as an airport limo driver (same crooked union, different locals and companies). The first one – the company became an owner operator franchise to get rid of the union a few years after I left. So my co-workers lost their jobs, and the union couldn’t stop it. In the 2nd, there was an unfair labor practices strike. Although the NLRB ruled in favor of the union, the union colluded with the company and sold out on us, so we lost our jobs. I also suspect the NLRB was in collusion with the union, as they would not help us with our complaints against the union…..Thus, when I hear the myth that the union protects your job, I compare it to Obama’s lie that his regime saved many jobs when in fact they destroyed 4 million jobs since 1/20/2009!!

    • 45caliber

      I tried to get a job one spring when I was in collge for the summer at a union site. I was told that I needed to talk to a union steward and get his okay before I could be hired by the company.

      So I went to the steward. It was about 10 am on a work day. He was playing poker with four of his friends. He told me that I’d have to join the union for the summer – $150 up front. I tentatively agreed since the work paid about $10 an hour then. (Back in the late ’60′s) I asked if I could start immediately. He told me that he couldn’t possibly get me on for at least six months – unless I wanted to pay him an additional $150 to put my name to the front of the line.

      Considering the company was paying him and that instead of working he was playing poker, I decided that the job wasn’t worth $300. I got a job at a sawmill at minimum wage for the summer.

      • Bob

        Alot of unions only hire family or friends.Especially construction unions and port workers.

      • Warrior

        Similiar to gov jobs, you need a “Sponsor”

  • Roger Thompson

    I am a proud and unapologetic Teamsters Union Member. My workplace was a nightmare and living hell before we unionized. Say what you want but unions have brought all the major safety and workers progress in the 20th century and will continue to do so into the 21st. I now enjoy a reasonably safe and healthy workplace, decent health insurance, which I still pay a premium for so it is not a free ride and a living wage. I recently utilized the union to fight a case of reverse discrimination. I won my case and the truth triumphed. I have been with my employer for 10 yrs this coming Monday, which happens to be Labor Day…

    • Matt V

      Too bad unions overshadow there good deeds with their obese greed. My father was a teamster member for nearly 30 yrs when he was forced to retire because of medical reasons he got 156.00 dollars for 6 months. After paying dues all those years well its not worth it any more unions are about greed now in case anyone forgot case and point ( JIMMY HOFFA ) nothing else needs to be said about union greed.

      • Hflashman

        On the other side, my father was a member of the IWA, retired and makes a union pension of $1800/mth.

      • independant thinker

        fl;ash in the pan, who is the IWA?

      • 45caliber

        My mother used to be strong union. She wanted me to work at the same place for that reason.

        I asked her what she paid a month in union dues. Then I multiplied by the number of workers there. It came to over $35,000 a month going to the union. Then I asked what time the union spent helping her. It came down to the union officials meeting with the plant reps once every three years at Los Vegas to work on a new contract for two months. Just before midnight on the last day, the contract would be signed giving them about a 1.5% pay raise a year for three years. (I generally get about 3% a year as salary.) The union officals got a free trip to Las Vegas for two months at one of the better hotels thanks to their union dues. They were paid for two months work (which included going to shows and gambling). The rest of the three years the two men basically shared $35,000 a month.

        She wasn’t too happy about that. A couple of months later she was disabled due to an accident at home. She asked the union for some help – and was told that they only helped IF she was injured at work.

        After that she was rabidly against unions.

      • eddie47d

        Why would the union help your mother for an injury outside of work? Unless she had a union health policy that stipulated such assistance. So you’re saying the union should get involved in outside issues that don’t relate to work? I know many anti-union people rail against unions doing just that. Was the union or employer responsible for her injuries? Did she want something that wasn’t apart of any contract? Did she have her own private insurance? Dave H. is always saying the it’s up to the individual to take respnsibility for himself. The union I belonged to offers separate health and injury insurance. The union is there for wages and benefits and fighting for what is in the contract. Do unions have excess’s? Probably, But every union and business alike have conventions and meetings out of town.

      • JeffH

        fast eddie, quit being stupid!

      • eddie47d

        Jeff H. As usual you never understand anything and don’t want real answers. You’re always patting your self on the back for your own brilliance. Your reply shows your ignorance and lack of comprehension. Go support more lies about be-headings in Arizona and Mexican military invasions of Texas.Your mind has become a web virus and has eaten everything between your ears. I was looking for a clear answer from 45 caliber then you pop up. Since you’re not clear headed that leaves you out.

    • benth164

      Bravo Roger. Well said. I personally have very mixed emotions about uniionization. I know we do need them though, as I have seen owners whine about how much they are not making only to drive up in their brand new Mercedes or BMW year after year. The disparity between the “Worker” and Management or CEO level, is disgusting. It’s like bragging rights to show off just how much you were able to exploit the working class just because they may not want to be an entrepreneur. Many business owner seem to forget just how much they owe the working class for their businesss’ success.

      • Richard

        Disparity? What’s wrong with that? Would you prefer equality in poverty? Because that’s where your argument goes. I make more money than a lot of people and a lot of people make more money than me. So what?!? In a free society equal outcomes can never be guaranteed, and shouldn’t be. You negotiate with your employer on what your skills/work/output it worth. If they can find someone who will do an adequate (notice I didn’t say the same) job, then that’s a free market. You have the same right to say yes or no that they do.

        I’ve seen the union mentality myself, and I didn’t like it. There was no motivation because your personal performance no longer mattered. In fact if you are in a union and a hard worker, you won’t be for long because everyone else will be angry at your for making them “look bad” or you’ll finish your quota in half the time.

      • DaveH

        Richard,
        When I was eighteen (too long ago), I worked in a Unionized Cement Plant. I experienced exactly what you said. If I worked hard, the other workers discouraged that (it made them look bad). One time, they were describing to me how important Unions were. Their example was about the company asking a guy to go up on unsafe (their opinion) scaffolding to change some lights. I was thinking ‘if I thought it was unsafe, I would just say no. If the company fired me, fine, no job is worth my life’. But I sure didn’t need a Union to make those decisions for me.
        I finished my alloted tasks early each day, so out of boredom I asked my supervisor if I could move some rock with the skiploader. I was having a blast driving that thing. Some Union leaders found out and they set up a meeting with company officers to request that I get Skiploader wages. The result? The company man told me I couldn’t drive the Skiploader anymore. Thanks Union. They also kept me from working a 4 day workweek (10 hours a day) instead of the usual 5 day workweek (8 hours a day). Thanks Union.
        So I learned my lesson early in life. If you don’t have initiative, join a Union gang to force your way on the company.

      • Jana

        DaveH,

        That is what I hear from so many that used to work around union people. They are in control of the company. This is wrong.

      • 45caliber

        Richard:
        I know EXACTLY what you mean! We had a young man hired who did a great job for us. He came in one day to resign – his dad had gotten him a job at a company with a union, just like he was in.

        Months later, I saw him at a store and stopped to talk. He said he loved his new job and gave an example of why. The union steward had taken him out to a location and had him hide and sleep all day while charging the company for his time. The excuse the union steward gave him was that the company was making too much money and they needed to make sure the company didn’t. Because his work wasn’t needed, they wanted him to hide. Further, he told me that even his dad was telling him that he needed to do less work since it “made the rest look bad”.

        Basically, the union ruined a fine young man and a good worker. He could have gone far in life – but was now a union man so he stayed exactly where he was from then on.

      • http://none Jeff Hanks

        It is not the social construct of the union that made that kid not work as hard or go hide it is the people that surround him and their thoughts and actions that they alone are responsible for. The union should not protect workers that take advantage of their job protection.

      • JeffH

        45caliber, I’m old school in that the rule of thumb was a fair days pay for a fair days work, plain and simple. As a chief steward, I had to pull slackers aside and set them straight and also pull supervisors or managers into meetings with upper management to set them straight. I can honestly say I never lost a complaint or grievance. All about honesty and integrity, of which there is very little today.

      • Bill

        If you put up your money to form a business and build it up over the years (or in a week for that matter) you are entitled to the fruits of your labor and results produced by the company regardless of how much it is worth. When you sign on to a company you agree to a wage, that is what you work for, how much anyone else makes is immaterial. Only a child would sit there whining “he got more than I did.” I agree with the minority of one, guess that makes it a minority of two.

      • 45caliber

        I agree with you. You “sell” your time and skills to your employer. You agree to work for eight hours a day, five days a week at that pay. If you then do a good job, the boss will reward you with a pay increase because you are making him more money than he is paying you. If you refuse to work for the pay you agreed upon when hired, then you are failing to fulfill your part of the contract. If you are not making him any money then he doesn’t need you and should have the option of firing you and hiring someone else. If he refuses to give you a reward in the shape of a pay raise for your good work, then you have the option of going somewhere else that will. Sooner or later, if he doesn’t reward his employees, he will go out of business. And he knows it.

      • kate8

        The truth is, the socialist democrats promoted the establishment of unions to insure another voting base, to foster mediocrity, and to exert control over labor.

        I have friends who are good people, but always vote democrat because the union tells them how to vote. They actually issue memos telling them how to vote, on people and issues. They are forced to donate, through dues, to the democrat party.

        They will always go along with whatever the union tells them, because that is where their bread is buttered. So they allow themselves to be told how to think.

        Money always talks the loudest.

      • eddie47d

        45;Unfortunately employers don’t think that way anymore.They will pay less wages and if the workers don’t like it to bad. The employer knows there are few places that worker can go with the same skill. Many employers will send their companies overseas to get even cheaper workers.

    • Ron

      Isn’t if strange how the Japanesse auto companies in this country like Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have superior pay in a superior work environment and they are not union? Makes you think doesn’t it? Well, maybe not because you probably have not had a thought in years that wasn’t given to you by the union.

      • cella

        Yes, Honda does pay good,but………they have temp workers that make 10 bucks an hour. That is not a living wage. And if it were not for unions, they would all be working for 10 bucks an hour and taking the profit back to Japan. Don’t kid yourselves.

      • 45caliber

        $10 an hour is a living wage around here. I don’t know where you live but this is Texas about an hour’s drive from Houston.

        Toyota also hires temp – but then picks the best temp workers to be full time employees. Also a reward. All you need to do is work instead of sitting and complaining about not being paid enough.

    • DaveH

      So, Roger, your “workplace was a nightmare and living hell before we unionized”? Wow, what kind of people would stay in a job like that? I sure wouldn’t. Did your employer put you in chains and make you stay? Or was it some other kind of force to make you stay?
      Did you and your Union cohorts say ‘Please Mr. Employer’ make our conditions better’, or did you get together in a gang, harass potential customers, and harass potential replacement workers who would have been glad to work in that “living hell” to earn a living?
      Did the Government or some other agency prevent you from forming your own company with heaven-like working conditions?

    • 45caliber

      Roger:
      Did you personally start at your company before the union came in to “fix” things?

      I’ll make a bet. $10 says that you were told this by the union after you started to work and never actually saw the problems you refer to. The union has been at your work site longer than you’ve been alive.

    • http://www.appraisalgroupllc.net Bryan

      Why did you choose to work in a place that was a “living hell” ? and why would you continue to work for that employer who according to you had no regard for people until your valient teamsters came and forced this miserable employer into responsible employment practices. If you had the courage to reject the terms of employment and seek a more responsible employer the “living hell” employer would have got a clue or went out of bussiness. The union enabled this evil employer to stay in bussiness.

    • Betty

      How right you are Roger! I come from a long line of Union members.
      Unions have done a lot of good for all workers.
      I proud my family is union!

  • TOCB

    Workers should have the right to unionize. Employers have the right to move to a state that doesn’t allow unions. If there are no such states the employer is out of luck. There has to be a certain amount of uniformity in a soceity. I think the libertarain positions work better in a small soceity where people are not interdependent. I don’t believe it is practical in a soceity of 310 million people.

    • DaveH

      Unionists have a right to move to a different company.
      So the number of people determines the amount of Government we should have? Somebody better tell Hong Kong that. With 3 times the population density of our most densely populated state, they spend less than half what we spend on Government.
      Imagine if you hired a gardener. Then he proceeded to uglify your property. You fire him. The next day he shows up outside your home to harass your visitors and any new gardeners you might try to hire. You would think this is correct behavior?

      • 45caliber

        No, but I’ve seen it happen. And every time I’ve seen it they are trying to force the employer to pay them for time they did NOT work for the employer and get extra money for not doing their job in the first place.

    • JeffH

      I’ve been a willing participant on both sides of unions 1970-1992. Helped organize my company with the ILWU in 1970, every phase up to being asked to replace the retirig business agent. In 1985 I was a Whse Mgr where the eployees(all 7) were being recruited by the very same union. The very same people that wanted my services in the 70′s now saw me as an evil empoyer representative. In 1970 the union was a necessaty for the employees, in 1985 the employees were lied to and were meant to be a tool for the union. They got their union but they didn’t win the promised contract and in 1993 the company closed it’s doors.(California EPA regulations) I’m not against fair unionisation, but I damn sure am against unions(SEIU)that misrepresent and carry informational signs and try to FORCE employees and businesses to unionize. That is somethig that I see quite often now and I will always make a point to inquire amongst the employees I talk to and find if they’ve asked for representation or not. So far non That I’ve talked to have asked for the unions to be there.

    • Patriot1776

      We are NOT acountry of 310 million. We are a union of 50 countries(states) united under common purpose….liberty. Each State is as unique as any other soveriegn country We are made up of indivdual States, Counties, and communities, each with their own identities. And if you could only learn to respect that each State has a soveriegn right to it’s own laws and beliefs and not try to force yours on others then we would be much better off. This is why the “liberttarian” point of view does not work in your opinion. Because you think that we are a one size fits all society. But that is the antithesis to liberty…and libertarianism. Long live private property, State soveriegnty, and individualism!

  • Hflashman

    No doubt there will be union bashing today, folks not knowing the history of Labor and the exploitation of the worker during the anti-union era of the beginning of the Industrialization.

    Anti unionists also fail to point out the way Big Corporate America has reduced its work force identities to a computer file and the consumers to the same..the ‘person’ is not considered. Is it profitable ? Then to hell with the individual. The rich become more entrenched and those that are not are stuck in a class system becoming more rigid and fixed.

    Unions are good. They counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich and wealthy.

    The problem is…the big unions have become “corporate’ themselves. Barriers to unionization should be weakened, but in my opinion the breadth of a union should extend no further than an industry. And each workplace should have one union for all the workers for that company…not several unions having a dog in the hunt.

    But then…it will be interesting to see how many come out and union bash on today’s thread. And to read the ignorance and robotic rantings…

    • 63rdpatriot

      That’s why it’s called ownership. If I own a company and choose to treat my employees like crap, that’s my business. If the workers don’t like it, they can move on. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, or “rights”. YOU have the freedom to quit. Unions have ruined this country. There is no longer pride in American workmanship and they drive the wages up so high people can no longer afford the crappy product.

      • clh

        I agree with you 100%. The unions have overstepped their bounds. They have driven up the price of products and materials by asking for incredible wages and compensation packages. I think in this day and age of unemployment and the economy, that every union shop that wants more wages on their next strike, the companies can tell them to go to hell and fill it with those non union people that want to work. The company no longer will have to pay that high wage.
        Why should a city worker-garbage collector- make 110,000 a year. Ridiculous, but thank the unions. We all pay more for goods and services because of it. The employee cannot be fired for failure to perform because of the union, so you have non production being paid for.
        Unions are BAD BAD BAD

      • kate8

        It seems that unions foster the idea that once you are hired for a job, that job becomes an entitlement, and before long the employees are calling the shots. The employer is no longer in control of his own company.

        I see this all the time (especially in government work) where, no matter how incompetent a worker might be, he cannot be fired. So he gets shifted around the departments, or others pick up the slack. Yet, he continues to bring home the same pay, and get regular raises, the same as if he actually did his job.

        It started out that an employer would offer benefits and good pay as an enticement for good workers. Then, gov’t steps in and mandates benefits, making then entitlements. This is nothing less than tyranny, and has driven our employers out of the country.

        When an employer is free to offer work on his own terms, he gets what he is willing to nurture. When business is plentiful, competition sets the rules of the game, and everyone wins.

      • PhiCrappaZappa

        I’m Quasi-Government, and I’m Union. I love my Union. Does it work for me? I have job security, and I’m thankful and have no problem busting my ass to do my job. When I’m not there, it’s noticeable. I don’t see the Union as the problem. I see it as totally inept and corrupt management. I know the rules as given to me day one. I follow them. Most don’t. Supervisors cannot supervise diligently and fairly when they’re screwing the clerks. And all the other clerks are aware, so “KMA, I ain’t doin nothin I don’t want to”. The Supers’ Supers are just as bad, since the Supervisors became Supervisors by screwing them. Not all, mind you, but I can only pick out a handfull. And the handfull simply didn’t want to do physical labor. In over two decades I have known ONE Supervisor that “became” out of merit. They retired, and it’s a world of dung. We had several employees fired, and they were gone for over a year, and then returned. Why? A technicality. The Union came prepared and did their job. Management F’d up. None of these people deserve to be here, but they are once again. And it’s only because of INEPT management. TOP to BOTTOM. Yes, many here suck and have no work ethics and feel entitled. That is a MANAGEMENT problem. RULES are in place to deal with it, if management really wants to. It’s easier to close your eyes, say whatever, and pick up your check every two weeks.
        And I’m also aware, that were the Union not here – NONE of us would be. It would be temporary staff F’ing the place up like they do now. Because management doesn’t train anyone. They haven’t a clue as to what the job entails. But their numbers have doubled……go figure.

      • Jana

        phi-c-z,

        Sounds like most of your problem is the UNION. You revealed it all in your post. Its amazing that you can’t see it.

      • Dick Gazinia

        Unions have created the middle class. True, some unions have overstepped their bounds, but in many industries they are about fair pay for work done, safety, and stability with health care.

        Your thinking is what gives company owners a bad name and what gives communists something to rally the ignorant about.

      • cemott3rd

        Odd? Germany and Japan are very unionized and there certainly is no problem with the quality of their workmanship. Maybe it was just shortsighted management who screwed the pooch?

      • http://YAHOO Idaho R,WINGER

        I agree, unions have dismantled the American dream. At one time unions were needed but in todays work force with all of the do’s and don’t's that the Government has put in work place. It has industry bound up so tight that the average worker has the company they work for over a barrel. I held a job with a large aero space co. that for the first tweny years it was non union, then the union was voted in and that completly ruined the working enviorment, that was so pleasent. I opped out of the union at that time by moving into a non union position, management, for my remainder of employment of which was ten + years. That union did nothing for me but want my money. I’m retired…..now.

    • DaveH

      I’m replying to Flashman’s “ignorance and robotic rantings…”.
      So Flashman thinks he knows the history of labor and their exploitation. No, Flashman, you only know the propaganda. Workers have always been free in this country to quit their jobs and to start their own companies. That wasn’t good enough for Union bullies. They wanted to dictate how the owners of the companies would operate their businesses. And if they didn’t do it the Union way, the violence and coercion would start.
      Flashman says “Anti unionists also fail to point out the way Big Corporate America has reduced its work force identities to a computer file and the consumers to the same..the ‘person’ is not considered. Is it profitable ? Then to hell with the individual”.
      Oh? We have to buy their products now (excluding the ones Flashman’s Big Government forces us to buy)? I didn’t know that. I must be ignorant like Flashman. And Flashman thinks the Unions make the products cheaper and more accessible? ROTFLMAO.
      Flashman says “Unions are good. They counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich and wealthy”.
      With greed and power from the Unions? Nice counterbalance. NOT!

      • TIME

        Dave Super post.
        I too am so sick of reading the rotten hate filled road apples that the twinkie Da’flashmonkey keeps posting.
        His outright ignorance and hate filled rhetoric.
        DaFlashmonkey is really no differant than Hitlers black uniformed monsters.
        One of his other mindless post, “I look forward to paying more in tax.” Anyone who has ever been in business would never say that.

      • kate8

        TIME, I stopped reading the posts of flash and those like him.

        You might want to consider this for the sake of your blood pressure. You are giving flash his desired response.

      • DaveH

        Flash is annoying, as are most Liberals I’ve known, but certain of their points need to be addressed so that less knowledgeable people aren’t lured by the Liberal Siren Songs which sometimes sound good, but in reality are the opposite.

      • DaveH

        In fact, Kate, most of the Liberals I’ve known have gotten away with their propaganda because people don’t want to be subjected to their manipulative personal attacks if they disagree. I believe that is one of the main ways that they have plied their trade. We must not let them silence us. That is the only way they can win because their concepts are fundamentally illogical.

      • Hflashman

        LOL … a prime example of total ignorance becoming a rich ground for the robotic glazed eyed mantra for his the wealthy elite Masters …

      • DaveH

        Coming from a man who is personally acquainted with Total Ignorance.

    • Dan Burke

      “No doubt there will be union bashing today,…” Good call! I don’t think you needed a college degree to figure that out. I work in IT, not in a union, and no college degree and I knew that without even reading the rest of your comment where it is plain that you are baiting us to fulfill your prediction.

      “Is it profitable ? Then to hell with the individual.” Um, so you would rather work at company running in the red? I prefer working in company in the black financially, even if that means I am just a number towards profits. In this scenario, I know that company will be here tomorrow as opposed to being in the red where I wonder how soon I will be unemployed by default (bankruptcy). Which I think GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to go bankrupt without government intervention. I think that they turned to the government for assistance is very telling. They expected it (and got it too). How many of us knew they’ve been bleeding for years? I did, and I am not an economist. I wonder if they would have fixed their problems years ago and avoided this whole mess if they had believed then that government would NOT be there to prop them up. By the way, interesting that Ford ended up reading the public outrage, backed out of the line begging for assistance, and actually has stayed out bankruptcy so far….

      “The rich become more entrenched and those that are not are stuck in a class system becoming more rigid and fixed.” Those democrats and union leaders you so adore as defenders of the common people seem to be getting richer while us commoners are getting poorer. You might want to be careful who is throwing stones in a glass house.

      “Unions are good. They counter balance the greed and power of the few entrenched rich and wealthy.” And why was this necessary? I don’t disagree that at one point that unions served a purpose. But it comes back to why. We keep getting caught up in the band aids to our problems but we refuse to look at the problem. Personally, I think the only winner in this whole mess is the government. Government keeps getting more and more powerful as the owners and management are pitted against the commoners. So, I suspect the problem goes back to perception, propaganda, and the government. When did government start getting involved with regulating business (picking winners and losers)? How is this connected with businesses partnering with government for gains? At one time, government created the slave class to support business. So perhaps we shouldn’t be so fast to say that evil, corporate elites were the need for unions. I am not saying that there were no evil, corporate elites involved. I am just saying that we are looking a rather narrow picture and the only winner in this whole mess is the one party that is standing aloof and playing the role of moderator.

    • Jim

      You know Hflash you had me right up until the last line of your post. I read alot of your posts and you appear to me to be overly liberal, read that as supporting whatever the libeal rant is without regard to the discussion. As I said at the start you had me right up untl the last line. Your post also seems to counter you claim in another post that you are a small business owner, yet you favor unions who IMHO have outlived their usefulness. All unions do now is enslave workers who have no say in how unions conduct their business. Workers also have any say in weather or not they will join, if the union is in place workers are forced to join and pay dues,usually through payroll deduction so the union gets your dues without your permission.

      • Scott

        Well stated! Who will save the employee from the unions? Union corruption is not due to unions becoming too corporate — it’s due to unions becoming too powerful/despotic. Where are the checks and balances?

        Employees should not be required or even pressured to join a union as a condition for taking a job, or keeping one. And if an employee has chosen to be in a union, he should be able to immediately terminate his membership for any reason, without any reprisal or retribution.

      • (WIA) Wild Indian in Action

        In agreement Jim,
        now if the HFlashflushman can give us a detailed description and name his business, and how his “Business Company or Corporation” deals/negotiates with Unions. How many “Greedy Millions” in income and profits has he made? Tell us Flush!

    • http://na. Robert Bradfield

      Bashing a Union is easy, as South African let me give you some idea of the effects that unions have in a country where the government consist of many unionists. We are currently experiencing a major strike of civil servants, this includes teachers and nursing staff.

      Our school year ends in November and the grade 12s have to prepare for two exams, the first which should take place this month determines the average grade point with the second exam stating in middle October. The past three weeks most of the teachers were on strike – no school for these learners in this period. As a consequence many of these learners will not be able to achieve the requirements either to pass grade 12 or to go to institutes of higher learning. This has an effect on their future, thus the kids pay.

      At the same time on the nursing side, babies die is hospitals because there are no nurses to take care of them, emergency patients are turned away by the same strikers and several critically injured patients, that could have been saved died. Thus, the patients pays, often with their lives. The only thing you should hope for is that the trade unionists do not become militant as in South Africa because that creates chaos. If you consider this union bashing so be it, but unions can become a major deterrent of economic growth.

  • DaveH

    I think, Robert, that ownership of one’s body means that one may freely join with others to form a Union. But that Union may only choose to leave employment as a group if their demands are not met. They may not legitimately interfere with the customers or the potential replacement employees. I realize that would exclude most if not all current Unions, but it would be consistent with Freedom.

    • Bruce D.

      Good point as always DaveH.

      • Denniso

        The only power workers have is the right to withhold their labor. If one worker does so there is no effect…if all or most of the workers do so they can bargain for better working conditions and pay. That is all unions do and w/o that leverage workers are powerless in the face of big business…unions led the the way to the largest middle class the world has ever seen, after WW 2.

      • DaveH

        Yeah, and if the Mafia only had one member, they wouldn’t have been as dangerous either. So, Liberals can rationalize that Companies abuse people by giving them a job, which they ask for and take voluntarily. But Unions are noble for forming a gang and coercing the employers into paying more and allowing them to work less? Liberals can rationalize anything, as long as it benefits them. Greedy, immoral people.
        We would be a much wealthier nation had it not been for Unions. Every drop in productivity and every increase in costs as a result of Union activity affects all of us.

      • Larry Gillihan

        Dave: When I was a young man,my parents worked at the local General Electric plant. The company treated the employees well, and nobody had any complaints. The union tried several times to “unionize” the plant, but the employees rejected it. Eventually, the union won. After that, the company only gave the employees what it was legally required to give. The employees lost more than they gained.
        A union is a good idea if the leaders of the union are honest and are on the people’s side, but there are few unions, if any, who fit that description. The main purpose of most unions these days is to make money for the union leaders and get control over the company.
        Many years ago, I was a member of the musicians’ union. They told me I couldn’t hire any non-union musicians for my band, and I couldn’t play any clubs that would not agree to hire only union musicians. I told them they weren’t running my business, and I would hire anybody I wanted to hire and play anywhere I could get a job, and they should take their union and cram it. I made a lot more money without the union,and had a lot less problems.

      • Denniso

        Workers form a union, they strike for better conditions, the company can fire all of them if it wants to. The company is not coerced…they’re free to do what they choose.

        Unions raised the working conditions for most people in this country
        50 yrs ago by having enough workers involved to give them leverage across the workplace,unionized or not. So, sure, it was and still is possible to not be part of a union and enjoy the benefits of higher wages and good working conditions…but those better conditions would not exist w/o the pressure of organized workers willing to put their jobs and sometimes lives on the line.

        All you have to do is look at history…look at the terrible wages and working conditions in this country before unions started
        fighting back against industry,which had held all the power to underpay and essentially enslave workers,until workers organised.
        Read some history rather listening to Limbaugh,Beck and Savage or Palin.

      • coal miner

        1

      • Chickentrain

        If you think union’s are a good idea, take a look at what the teacher’s union has done to education in this country.

      • coal miner

        one seven

      • http://, Vippy

        No wonder why the USA are in such a mess when the people lack basic understanding. Have you forgotten about Henry Ford and his goons, how he treated his workers, provided his own housing, his own grocery store, and some who protested too much were snuffed out and the rest, if lucky, was beaten? Unions in Germany are great, the car industry pays 3 and 4 times as much as they do here and we all know about their excellent benefits and it does not break the country! Let the rich people fight their battles not you. I was management and if we did not have the union I can tell you we would have acted much like the store owners in town who have a register shortage and then make the cashier make up the difference (gas drive offs are a good example). Or we have them stand at the register until it is time to clock out but now they still have to balance their drawer. You have no idea. How is it possible that retail is working on holidays but don’t have to pay holiday pay or overtime? Why is it tha it American Workers eat their own when times get rough. Keep fighting the battles for the rich!

      • Jerry D

        My experience with unions was not a good one. Most of the time, slackards used the union to keep their jobs when they should have been fired. It took at least half again as many people to do the jobs in the mill because almost everything was put before the union. I and other friends were called on the carpet by the shop steward for working too hard and making others look bad. By the way, I never received a single paycheck from the union, so my loyalty was to the outfit that paid me. All the union ever did for me was to take my dues.

      • http://, Vippy

        Well, because you have had a bad experience we knock the whole deal? I have had bad dealings with the union but it was due to a very frightening and power hungry union president and a cowardly organization I worked for who did not want to get involved but I would never condemn the union because as a manager I know if it had not been for the unions our employees would have been taken advantage of. A few rotten apples, and we have them everywhere, don’t spoil the whole idea. Why is it all about the “Me” Factor?

      • http://www.kjnf.net jimmimax

        Wrong! If you studied economics in America after WW2 like my dad who came home from the Army opened a restaurant in San Francisco as millions of other veterans opened family business’s, the nation was booming with small medium and large employer’s and the need for employee’s was great, there was no space available in San Francisco for new business’s because of what was a boom! So unions were merely a threat to society, most were thugs Like this Trumke may have spelled his name wrong, heard of Jimmy Hoffa he had whole families terminated, heard of Gotti, he had hundreds of people terminated,and then there were the five burroughs in New York each family had people terminated, wonderful these mafia union thugs! there are nothing but evil people running the unions, card check, do you know what that is? Do you support that? Then you are no different than the unions of the Soviet Union that took control of Russia in 1917, why do you think they called it the Soviet Union? Think before you answer, your freedom may be at stake! The unions are no good and that is the bottom line!

      • Vippy

        So true! Unions fight for us, the little person on the totem pole!.
        Just because there are bad people everywhere, even in the unions, we
        have to know who butters our bread!

    • 45caliber

      I agree. If you don’t want to work somewhere due to some reason the owner won’t fix, then quit and go somewhere else. Don’t try to destroy the business the owner has (destroy his property) and don’t try to destroy the chances of someone else to work if they are willing to overlook the reason you won’t work there.

      • cemott3rd

        Owning property, whether it be land and/or a business doesn’t make you king of that realm. You must still adhere to the laws of the land, safety standards, wage standards, respect civil rights etc. You even have to follow local code enforcments, enviromental codes, try burying toxic waste on your property. As for letting everyone quit if they are not willing to do it for the wage the employer was paying, well that is what happened in most of the restaurant kitchens in this country, so they hired illegal aliens when tradesmen like me refused to work for a less than what most of us considered a fair wage.

      • Andy Reid

        What a great argument to do something about illegal immigration

    • Dave

      Also, the employees of a company are not company property. They are not owned by the company. They have the freedom to decide to whatever they want as long as they do their jobs well. Who are you to say they can’t unionize. I am a liberal but I don’t think all unions are warranted but some are necessary. Look what happens in a coal mine when there is no union. Profit becomes the prime motivator by the owner who neglects the safety of his employees who have no recourse.

      • DaveH

        Did I say you couldn’t join a Union?
        And to your last point – everybody has their own self-interests at heart, whether they be Unions or Companies or Government employees or anybody else.

      • Denniso

        Spoken like a true believer in Ayn Rand, though wrong. There are millions of people around the world who care about more than just their self interest. They care about their city,their community,neighbors,the environment and the health of the entire planet.
        You’re speaking for the selfish,greedy and self absorbed people, of whom we have too many in this country…that may be our downfall.

      • Todd

        You have every right to join a union. I will support your right to do what you want with YOUR property. You do NOT have a right to work in a place of employment if the owner doesn’t want to employ you. Perhaps you’d grasp it better if things were reversed so you could walk a mile, so to speak: You need your lawn cut. You choose to employ a gardener to handle that job. After a couple of weeks, your gardener decides he wants a raise, paid vacation, and for you to pay for his health insurance and 401k contributions. So, given your treatment of others’ rights, you must be fine with agreeing to at least some of the demands. Should you decide to not modify the original employment agreement, then what? If you don’t agree, he’ll not only not tend your yard, he’ll actively prevent others, perhaps even you, from tending to it. So, do you still think it is a good idea to give over control of your property to others who: A. didn’t take a risk in obtaining the property (signing a mortgage, spending hard earned dollars, etc…) and B: have only their own, and not your interests in minds?

      • http://www.pldavis.mysite.com Peter Davis

        Very well said, Todd. No company should be forced to recognize any unionization of company employees. Unions are the cause of a great deal of America’s problems. Is it any wonder that unions ALWAYS support the public office candidate that is bad for “We, the People.”

      • Rufus John Wilson

        John Says: Unions are no good for any one. Your Dues have to be paid by your friends and relatives. The union worker in many cases flag work that will cause lot of damage and kill people. (I KNOW!)Their work is no better than anyone else. The person that hires you is responsible to hire people he knows he can trust to do the work without any doubt.
        And any time you are not able to do your job you should QUIT.
        We do not need unions. We never did need unions. I will never again work under a Union. I know what they have done to our U.S.A. and it is not A Good Picture, You can see for yourself all you need to do is drive around through out our States. as you do think About Drugs, Driving between Drunk Drivers, Big Trucks, and your own Life.
        Cars driving 70 MPH Meeting cars etc coming toward you at speeds you do not know could have a Heart Problem and hit you head on. Both Vehicles could Have been made by UNION LABOR any thing could go wrong with either Vehicle.

      • Keith

        Employees may have a right to unionize but an employer should also have the right to choose weather or not to employ union employees.

      • Denniso

        Companies don’t have to hire anyone they don’t want to, but if most steel workers,commercial carpenters,electricians and others are unionized then that’s who the companies will hire. But they aren’t forced to hire them,they could choose to hire hack workers who aren’t skilled or trained. Their choice.

      • Jana

        Union workers are very skilled—-at one thing and don’t dare ask them to do another mans job. Nope, they won’t do it. I don’t like working with anyone that has ever been in a union. They only want to do one little thing and with a smart attitude won’t do any more either. They are useless. Then they want their breaks and can’t work too hard. HMPH, UNIONS NO!!!

        They used to have a purpose, and in some places they still might, but in MOST places they will ruin the work place. Look at the auto industry now. One of the biggest problems they have are present and past union workers. If the unions were really for the employee, then the big union organizers would not be so rich, and would not act like the mafia.

    • http://www.appraisalgroupllc.net Bryan

      Personal freedom extends to the employer as well. I do beleive that a union could be formed outside of an employers premisis, however the employer could make it a terminable offense to participate in a union during working hours thereby rejecting the union and causing each individual to be responsible for his own actions. The employee always has the freedom to reject terms of employment by ending the employment relationship. The problem with unions is that they are a middle man mediator who expects compesation for the duties of mediation/protection. I think that in most cases unions are nothing more than a protection racket. I also tbeleive that most non union companies treat their employees as good or better than a union counterpart. People who join unions usually do so because the union existed prior to their employment and they were forced to join. Therefore the union is taking your freedom away. Unions do not promote responsibility they promote passivity while offering protection for less than enthusiastic work ethics.

    • http://na RussG

      Let’s just go back to the 1940″s for conversations sake.There really was a time, when some company’s were treating people like a communist country and Unions were good.”Or so I thought”,lol.If Employee’s had brought law suites and complained enough through the years, these unfair labor practices could have been brought under control by local Governments with laws and regulations.The Fedreal Governement to this day, should have no involvment whats so ever with this matter. Now your Unions own your President. He is there Pupppet. If you can’t do your homework and see that Unions are ruining this Country and are nothing but co-rupt, then it’s not even worth debating with you.

    • Steve

      It depends what you mean by interfering. They have a right to picket and make potential customers aware of the businesses practices. And they have the right to consider replacement workers scabs and exclude them from future union membership. Most of the comments have devolved into a discussion about whether unions have a “good” or “bad” overall effect. But the focus of the opinion piece was that business owners have a basic philosophical property right regardless of whether the overall effect produced by that right is good or bad. And the response is unions don’t intrude on the right of a business to do what it wants with its property. It has the right to lockout the unions, but it must deal with the consequences of that choice.

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