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Don't Believe This Liberal Lie

July 30, 2010 by  

Don't Believe This Liberal Lie

Well, that resolution didn’t last long.

Last week I wrote in this space that it was a waste of time to argue with liberals and I wasn’t going to do it anymore. But three comments from readers have forced me to reevaluate that position.

The first came from a reader who chastised me for giving up on anyone.

“Remember Saul of Tarsus,” he told me. “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.”

The Lord sets an awfully high bar here, doesn’t He? I confess; I’m more likely to curse an enemy than pray for him. But it’s good to be reminded of the higher road.

The second constructive criticism came from an old friend who didn’t like my use of the word “liberal” to describe our opponents on the left. “We are the true liberals,” he told me, referring to the traditional meaning of the word. “We shouldn’t let them steal this noble concept from us. Please join me in taking it back.”

That’s easy to say, but not so easy to do. If you want to be clearly understood, it’s probably better to use words as they are understood today, not what they meant a century or two ago. N’est-ce pas? (Yes, I agree; using foreign words or phrases is another phony affectation of pretentious intellectuals. I won’t do it again.)

Where was I? Oh yes, readers who disagree with me. If you scroll down to the end of my columns and read the comments section below, you’ll see some doozies. Don’t do it right away; wait until the middle of the following week, when they’ve had a chance to respond to each other. As you’ll soon see, some of them really enjoy hurling a good insult at an opponent… and are mighty good at it.

It wasn’t an insult that got me riled up this week, however, but a blatant falsehood delivered as though it were a carved-in-stone truth.

“This is why there is a separation of church and state in the constitution,” someone calling himself J. M. proclaimed. “To keep religion out of politics.” Then he added, “Some folks just don’t get it. Next thing you know, the Republicans will bring back the Inquisition.”

I confess that I cleaned up his spelling, punctuation and grammar a bit. I didn’t want you to be distracted by his lack of literacy. Instead, I wanted to focus on the Big Lie of his original comment.

There is absolutely nothing in the United States Constitution that requires—or even justifies—the so-called separation of church and state.

I’ll go even further. Our Founding Fathers never wanted to see any such thing. And they would be appalled to see how the courts in this country have deliberately twisted, distorted and abused the wonderful document they created to strip all vestiges of religious belief from our public life.

Allowing the left to get away with this is one of the greatest tragedies that’s taken place in my lifetime. In case any of you reading this have also swallowed the liberal lie about “separation of church and state,” bear with me for a few moments while we cover some very important (but often suppressed) history.

What The Constitution Actually Says
What is the most important sentence in the U.S. Constitution?

I would submit that it’s the very first one. Do you remember how this marvelous document starts? Our Founding Fathers set the tone for everything they believed, and everything that would follow, in Article I, Section 1, sentence one. It reads, “All legislative powers herein granted are vested in Congress….”

A friend of mine who has lectured widely on the Constitution likes to stop at this point and ask: “Are there any math students present? Okay, maybe you can help me out. If ‘all’ lawmaking power resides in Congress, how much is in the Supreme Court? Right, none! How about the Executive Branch? Right, none again. Thanks for your help.”

There’s a very important principle here—one that has been deliberately obfuscated over the past 50 years. A Supreme Court decision isn’t supposed to be “the law of the land.” The Court has no Constitutional right to make law. All it is supposed to do is to decide “the law of the case.” Its decision should be binding on the plaintiff and the defendant and no one else.

Instead, for most of my lifetime, layer upon layer of additional government has been sanctioned and even initiated by the black-robed justices of the U.S. Supreme Court. The men and women who took an oath swearing to uphold the Constitution—like every member of Congress—regularly and repeatedly violate that pledge. They knowingly and deliberately, with malice aforethought, ignore the very first sentence of the document they promised to uphold.

And let me digress for a moment to note that the very same principle applies to the Executive Branch. What lawmaking powers does the Constitution bestow on the President and all of the cabinets, agencies and commissions he oversees? Again, the answer is none. Yet we get Executive Orders, Presidential decrees and all sorts of new rules and regulations, all having the force of law. This is another serious violation of the Constitution’s first sentence.

With that as background, let’s turn to the First Amendment (the one used to justify all of the arguments for “the separation of church and state”) and see what it actually says. Here is how it begins:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

That seems pretty clear, doesn’t it? “Congress shall make no law,” either promoting a religion or prohibiting one.

According to the Constitution, what are the states allowed to do when it comes to religion (or just about anything else)? The answer is, pretty much whatever they want.

Could a state require that the Ten Commandments be posted in every courthouse? Sure it could.

Could a city or county government install a crèche on its lawn every Christmas? Absolutely.

Could a governor encourage the citizens of his state to call on the Almighty to alleviate drought or do other good works? Without a doubt.

The framers of our Constitution expected the citizens of each state to decide for themselves how state and local affairs would be conducted. Would every state decide the same thing? Absolutely not. Our Founding Fathers expected differences to emerge between states. Some would be minor, some major. If one state passed laws you felt were onerous, you could vote to change them—or move to another state.

The idea that every law and every rule in every state should be exactly the same as the ones in every other state would strike our Founding Fathers as the height of absurdity. They believed that differences were good; that competition would reward good policy and punish bad.

The system worked pretty well for more than 150 years. It could work even better today, thanks to the vastly improved flow of information and transportation. If we choose we can learn a lot about policies and procedures in other states. And if we like what we learn we can get there a lot easier than our forefathers did. Or, like the flood of affluent folks who have been fleeing California, head for a state that doesn’t try to tax you to death.

What will it take to restore Constitutional government to this country? The short answer is, electing members of the House and Senate who will settle for nothing less. That presupposes, of course, getting candidates who actually understand what constitutional government is all about. Does yours?

We can’t expect total victory in one election or, frankly, even one decade. It took a cabal of socialist schemers more than 150 years to bring us to this point. I hope it won’t take that long win back all of our freedoms. But victory won’t come quickly. Or easily.

You’ve heard the expression; the longest journey begins with a single step. Let’s make sure that this November we take one step closer to the sort of system we used to have. The one that made us the envy of the world—when we were the freest, most productive and most prosperous nation on earth. I still believe we can do it.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

—Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • James

    When Jesus said: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you” etc. (Mt. 5:44), He was referring to fellow Christians who through misinformation were in disagreement. John wrote (2 John 1:9-11): “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
    The Bible doesn’t disagree with itself. Remember, John was the disciple Jesus loved. He was here-speaking of the Israelite-pretenders among them who had denied that Jesus was the Messiah.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      There are a lot of people who do not understand that the Bible was written for believers. Those whose eyes and ears are not opened, get nothing but words when they read it, but for us who know and believe, it fills the Spirit inside us and strengthens and guide us. Without the Holy Spirit inside you, its just a book of words and stories. To us believers, it is the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

  • http://ordy@fedtel./net Eric g

    Seperation of church and State , which is also seperation of religion and state . Religion can be called anything that is believed but not proven . Athieism is also a religion becuase they accept a great deal on unproven faith .
    All of the various religions have always been trying to get the power of the government to promote their beliefs . Even if one religion can only get a law passed making it illeagal for another religion to use certian words in public places .
    The biggest danger to christianity , is that some of the other religions are disguising themselves as scientists , or suffuring from religious persecution and discrimination . You all must now by now how a political correct government reacts to discrimination . If history is anything to go by ? we cant expect the government to really pactice seperation of government from religion . As government themselves can be and are often a religion .

  • darraugh

    Benb Love it or Leave it Love to Leave it. However since this country has taken all our money you would have to give us the money to get out of this raw, corrupt country. Plus we will not give our cat up or have her put in quarantine for 6 months to get into another country. So you will have to find a country who would not put out cat in quarantine for 6 months or any amount of time then we would love to get out of this country who “after the clinton/bush disaster obama has pounded the final nail into the coffin.”

    • Pathfinder

      Ronald Reagan once said that (not an exact quote here I don’t have a copy of the speech handy): When Castro took over Cuba many Cubans fled to America; but if freedom should be extinguished here, in America, where will we go ? This is why I refuse to leave and will fight all of you socialists. America is unique and I want to keep the republic that our founders gave us; especially since we have abolished that great mistake of slavery which marred or birth.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        We dont go, we stay and fight. That is pretty much why enemies dont try to attack us, except for now with these muslim terrorists, because they dont value life and dont care when we kill them. They just dont get it.

  • DCS of Crkt Cve

    Chip, you nailed it (again)and there’s nothing more to be said! Right on!

  • Forest

    Thanks for the enlightning report. Your right about the seperation of church and state. But I am a liberal. But I call myself a true liberal. Which means I respect everyones rights. I believe strongly in the Freedom of speech, and at the same time believe women should be the only ones who get to choose what they get to do. When it comes to the abortion issue. Yet I also believe in a persons right to carry a gun. I think our government sticks its nose into to many places. But at the same time I believe strongly in better regulations that protect Americans from greedy companies. A true liberal believes in Protecting americans freedoms. But also in protecting americans from those who use money and religion to control this country.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Ive yet to see anyone in this country be able to use religion to control the people. When did this happen? I do not recall this ever happening. Now the money part, yeah your dead pan correct there. Wherever you have large amounts of money, corruption is right there. And see money is really important. A lot of people dont realize it or even know it, but the Bible mentions money more than love. Yeah, God knew it would be a pretty important thing to do that. Think about it. Man cannot serve both God and money. Look around at the world. Seems to manifest itself pretty good that way now, doesnt it.

      • kate8

        Beberoni, This is something that has always baffled me: the way the liberals harp about becoming a theocracy. For nearly 200 years we were mostly all Christians in America. People adhered to doctrines within their own groups, but never demanded anyone legislate their religion. This was why there was concern when JFK took office, because people feared he would be serving the Pope first. But that didn’t happen.

        We were a far more moral and prosperous nation then.

      • Bob Wire

        >>”This is something that has always baffled me: the way the liberals harp about becoming a theocracy.”<<

        Hmm? ~ well it true such concerns would rise probably rise for the left of center, or the CLU. ~ I think you over state their numbers and the size of the attack.

        I'm torn on this issue ~ in that, unless I know you and it's solicited ~ I really don't want to hear about God matters. ~ I really don't want to hear about where you were educated ~ Princeton, Yale, Baylor ? ~

        We live is a nation where we are all free to worship as we wish, what we wish. (more or less) ~ But what If I take 5 minute of you time while I do my "God" thing? Roll out my mat, get out my compass, get on my hand a knees, butt in the air and start speaking in strange tongues? Does that mean you are going to "yield" while I do 5 minute of mine?

        What if You need more then 5 minutes? What if I want to do this 4 times a day ~ with a snake!

        There's a place for matter of faith, ~ it's carried is one's heart and severed up in our homes , churches and temples.

        What I'm trying to say is ~ You live you God experience and teach by example ~ This open public displays of righteousness even Jesus warned us of.

        Let the sleeping dog lie is what i'm saying ~

        I prefer there to be "NO Law" and no restrictions ~ Please don't force us to make laws regulation such human practices.

      • kate8

        BW, what nonsense. I have never indicated any such bent as what you just posted. If you think that, then you don’t read my posts.

        You are a master at mind-bending, it seems. The fact is, in America Christians are no longer permitted to pray openly, but Muslims are given whatever time they want, places to pray, foot-baths, and instruction to our children in public schools. Our courts are contemplating accepting Sharia.

        My position is the Constitutional one: government is not permitted to go anywhere near the issue of faith.

        Of course we don’t want prayer mats in the streets blocking traffic and creating spectacle. But if a person or a group wants to quietly pray on the steps of the Court, or if people want to offer a prayer at the beginning of a meeting, that is perfectly fine.

        Common sense must always prevail. The question is whether my exercise of faith infringes on yours. Well, if you are paying me to do a job, and I am taking your time for my prayers, then it does. If I am creating a distraction or commotion, then it does. If you accost me on the street ranting about your beliefs and shoving pamphlets in my face, then it does.

        Geeze man, we’re not all idiots.

      • Al Sieber

        Reverand Jim Jones did.

      • kate8

        Al, Jim Jones only controlled the people within his own cult, and no one forced them to join.

        Many religions and cults exert control over their followers. But that is their right to belong to such groups, and they do so by choice. I know of no time when anyone tried to pass laws requiring the people belong to worship in any particular way, or at all.

    • DaveH

      The problem is, Forest, that most regulations don’t protect the people from Big Business. Instead they protect the Big Businesses from competition, and they cost us more money. It costs money for the smaller businesses to comply with the paperwork hoops that are set up by regulations. That causes a lot of them to throw in the towel. Thus, there is less competition for the Big Businesses that have plenty of money to hire lawyers and accountants to deal with the hoops. And It costs money to have all those Bureaucrats supposedly protecting us from Big Bad Companies. At times in the past, with the lack of easily available product reviews, there might have seemed to be a need for Government intrusion into the marketplace. But with the Internet, there is no excuse for anybody not to do their homework before they buy a product or before they make an investment.

      Look at the countries in this list. They are arranged from least regulated to most regulated. You can pick the country names to see the particulars for that country. Tell me which of those countries you would rather live in, the least regulated or the most regulated?
      http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx

  • Danny Buckles

    It seems to me that there is a defined seperation within our ranks. We have Constituionalist that hold true and faithful to what it stands for. And we have non-Constitutionalist who deny the power of government for which it stands. The very undeniable fact that the offices of government present to this day are taken and held by the Oath of office to uphold and to defend the constitution of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. You can neither deny alter or demean that which you have sworn to uphold and defend. I challenge anyone to intelligently defend these enemies of our constitution who have under the oath of their office to defend the constitution have tried to destroy it. As for Thomas Jefferson’s Letters that is exactly what they were. Letters written from one man to another,representing his personal oppinions they do not define or interpret the Constitution of THE UNITED STATES I do not think there has ever been a problem with the understanding of this wonderful document the problem is the Anti American enemies of our nation who are determined to destroy our form of government from within. This powerful document formed by GOD fearing men is hated by ungodly men.Just as they hate the true word of GOD that is given through JESUS CHRIST of whom the laws of this nation were grafted voted on and established. It is time for these constitution haters to be called out as traitors. For you either defend our constitution or you are the enemy of it.Don’t try to change or destroy our great nation find one you approve of and live there. Chances are pretty good that the US probably support them as well and at somepoint defended their freedom. God Bless

  • Henry Ledbetter

    Amen We need to be mindful that it rains on the just and the unjust but even the the unjust profit ween the rightious are in authority.

    • Bob Wire

      metaphorically speaking you are raining down my collar Henry.

      It’s very debatable to the quality of any benefits offered while being exploited and your bones suck dry. Much like the movie scene we’ve all seen 3o times by now.

      Refer;”The Ten Commandments” Heston movie

      We could well be crazed mad, like the half starved old man dancing knee deep in the Pharaoh mud pits made bricks when he was told for punishment, he must now make his bricks tally without straw! ~ Anguish did not begin to describe the horrible look on his muddy face and bulging eyes as he cried out, “Make bricks without straw?”

      A sane person would have said just kill me now A$$ -O! ~ screw Pharaoh and his bricks.

      Over the last 30 years ~TOO many of the American people have been exploited by both predatory government and business concerns. ~ The Government has permitted ( encouraged ) it to happen and a select few have benefited from it, while a good 45 % of working American’s standard of living has taken a serious nose dive.

      We are not growing! we are fading! If something doesn’t turn around, we can look at Mexico and see our near future.

  • Benb

    Thanks Chip! What you said should work for all people who call themselves Americans. If they don’t like us for some reason or another, they should get out of this country. Maybe Saudi Arabia will take them in and they can change their constitution while they are there. I doubt it! And yet you want to change ours. Very funny!

    What does it take for some people to understand? You’re in a country that respects God and religion. If you don’t like that, don’t try to change us. This is what we have chosen to live like. If you try to take away our voice in government, what do you get? Only your side of the story. We respect America and it’s constitution and we believe that it will work for everyone, including the rest of the world. Should the rest not like our way of life…well, you’ve already seen why we have to have wars. Don’t you get it yet? You can’t take God out of the equation. If He’s not in it, than you’re on your own and the rest of the nation will go down the tubes with you, if you want to change our constitution. I fought as a Marine in one of our wars, just to protect what we have here, and people like you, who think God should be taken out of everything. Let me tell you something. When you’re in a fox hole and fighting for your life, there’s no such thing as an athiest. Even a true athiest believes in God deep down inside. He’s not as stupid as he pretends to be. He just wants his way and he doesn’t care who he hurts in the process of getting it.

    God Bless America!

    • HFlashman

      Hmmm..so you would support turning us into a “christian” Saudi Arabia?

      • Pathfinder

        Why do you insist on putting words into other people’s mouths ?? Is it because you are unable to formulate an intelligent response to what they actually said ?? I don’t recall anyone on this message board saying that they wanted to creat a “christian Saudi Arabia” here. Instead of argueing against things that no one here has said; I would be much more impressed if you would respond to what was actually stated.

      • JeffH

        Pathfinder, that is what they, liberal left, do…you see it all the time here and it always comes from the “dark side” of the platform.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Its too bad Saudi Arabia isnt Christian. Man that would be great. It would turn the whole middle east around, and the muslim terrorist problem would be gone, being that they are the money behind 90 percent of it.

  • Peg

    Thanks Chip!! keep them coming!

  • Bob Wire

    I only question the fact you label a miscomprehension as a “lie” and then decided to label it as “liberal”

    I always wondered why ~ manufactures ~ created and sold labeling devises and certain people seemed to really enjoy having them. They carry a special appeal to people that hate disorder and confusion in their lives.

    I had a friend that got one for Christmas and he went wild with it! ~ He labeled his refrigerator, “refrigerator” and then his phone, “phone”

    I’m left only to wondering, who was getting them confused?

    Label away guys! There is people out there depending on you to keep the rest of us straight about such things.

    You’re doing a get job! Don’t let up! The 2010 elections are drawing near and I’m counting on you to keep everything in it’s proper box and labeled correctly. Let’s keep the confusion to a minimum.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Its easy in 2010 and 2010 Mr. Wire. No one in their right mind will pull the little lever in the column labeled democrat. America has woke up, and one doesnt have to look far to see the great mistake made in 2008. Thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, have left the democratic party over these current losers, and thats without a new viable candidate to jump to. Imagine that. I needed Ronald Reagan to convert me. I guess it just doesnt take much anymore, since their insanity is so visible these days.

      • Tazio2013

        Typically, I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed CCC, but for you I’ll make an exception. It’s the independent moderates who will decide the November 2010 elections and the more you white, homophobic, xenophobic, tea-bagging racist fascists rant and rave with your right wing wacko nonsense, the more thoughtful and intelligent among US will not vote republican. You clowns will get no more than 45% of the votes and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WILL CHANGE!

      • DaveH

        A battle of wits? Who would you have a battle of wits with, Tazio? An eighth grader?
        An intelligent person armed with facts need only present those facts to win a debate or influence people. Half of your comments consist of name-calling, ridicule, and condescension. All the manipulative skills of an eighth grader.
        I don’t care if you’ve read Nietze, Aristotle, Descartes, or Socrates, you are just a rude, disrespectful human being.

      • HFlashman

        45% for Tea party candidates?

      • Bob Wire

        Bagger are polling at 18% today ~ or are least that’s what’s being say.

        The 18 coming largely from the hard core die hard 28% Gop core vote would be my guess.

      • Pathfinder

        To the contrary, the moderates are fed up with your communistic, nazi (aka national SOCIALIST), fascist (Also another brand of national SOCIALISM) deception. Your Lamestream media’s lies about Obama being a moderate won’t work anymore. It is time for BOTH of the old, corrupt parties to die. (Yes BOTH the donkeys and the RINOs) We are all tired of being offered a choice between tweedel dumb and tweedle dumber. Unlike yourself, I do not own a crystal ball. So, I will not waste time pretending to know the future. As for myself; November the seecond can not come soon enough. Then we will know how people feel. Of course, I do expect that ACORN will help democrats to vote early AND OFTEN for their favored candidates.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        I am non of the things that you just called me, so in truly knowing that, I guess that makes you a liar. And I dont associate with thieves and liars, so go away and be gone satan. Have a nice day.

      • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

        Taz my “friend”, you are absolutely fantastic! Have you approached Leno, Letterman, or Comic Central about appearing on their show(s)? If not, you are missing the chance of a lifetime. Go get’em boy!
        Your “friend”,
        Zack

    • Pathfinder

      Labeling the refrigerator as a refrigerator and the phone as a phone, while redundant, is not really a problem. The problem occurs when we try to label the phone as a refrigerator or vice versa. Labeling is not bad in and of itself. (Imagine trying to buy food in a grocery where the cans have no labels or even worse where the labels are misleading.) Rather it is the attempt to decieve by afixing false labels which is detestable. So, sarcastic marks aside, let us all be cautious and try to be accurate in attaching labels.

  • Tazio2013

    chipster and his glenn beck-loving, fox noise-following, crusading christian conservative, white, male, republican, tea-bagging simpletons (Normal Guy not included) have done it again; removed all doubt that they have drunk deeply from the cup of right wing wacko kool-aid! If you all CCC pinheads are capable of understanding the truth of what other, more intelligent and educated individuals have said, read on.

    “The priests of the different religious sects… dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live.” – Thomas Jefferson

    “Politics has slain its thousands, but religion has slain its tens of thousands.” – Sean O’Casey

    “The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

    “To an evolutionary psychologist, the universal extravagance of religious rituals, with their costs in time, resources, pain and privation, suggests as vividly as a mandrill’s bottom that religion is adaptive [and appeals only to the misinformed hoi poloi].” – Marek Kohn

    For a more objective perspective on Reality read The Daily Bell, LewRockwell.com, freedomainradio, NaziSociopaths.org and other Non-theistic, Jeffersonian Libertarian oriented publications.

    Looking forward to your responses!

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      My gosh, you forgot to lambast Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity in your drivel based statement. You liberals are slipping. Oh, and you forgot to blame Bush.

    • DaveH

      Tazio wins the award. That’s the most manipulative name-calling, ridicule, and condescension that I’ve seen in a single Liberal comment.
      Please post here more often, Tazio. It will save me a lot of work spent convincing people of how depraved the Liberals are.

      • DaveH

        And please don’t try to associate yourself with Libertarians. You are no Libertarian. We believe in the freedom of people to believe what they want to believe.

        For our Party Platform:
        http://libertarianparty.org/platform

      • coal miner

        Dave,

        How come Ron Paul and Sonny Barger refuse to walk across the picket line?I dare you called Sonny a thug,not to his face you won’t.These are real men,not some spineless scabs.They are true Libertarians.Sonny said he wouldn’t be low lie enough to escort some worhless maggots across picket lines.He was ask to be a goon. He refused the request.Ralph,I am proud of you.You are a true patriot.GOOD LUCK IN YOUR MOTOR CYCLE BUISNESS.I’ll stop by there and have look at those Harleys.

      • DaveH

        Libertarians don’t force their way on others like Unions do.
        If people get together in a Union and walk off the job, we’re okay with that. But if they use force or coercion to block other people from taking those jobs, we are not okay with that.
        I doubt that you could show me many Union members who aren’t willing to resort to violence or the suggestion of it to get their way.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        He even topped denniso.

    • WarriorH

      Cass Sunstein.

    • Pathfinder

      And where did you say your rights originate ??

  • Matt

    Way to go chip!

  • Eggs Benedict

    Normal Guy
    The framers of our Constitution were pretty smart people when they set forth this wonderful document. The Constitution outlines the duties of all three branches of the Government and what is to be left to the states. Well, our Government has violated these requirements in serveral areas and imposed laws on the people which was not their right to do. I believe that is why there is so much confusing in our Government halls today. The Constitution is not a living document that needs to change as a result of the way society has decided to conduct themselves. What if society decided something that was very evil and determental to the whole of society? It seems like everytime some one comes up with a beautiful plan for conducting our lives (the Constitution)that is good for the whole, some liberal thinking minds come along and have to change it. There is a way to change the Constitution and it is called Amending the Constitution. The problem is, it takes two thirds of the vote of the House and Senate to get it done. That would probably be almost impossible in todays world, therefore it is easier for those liberal thinkers to usurp authority and make things happen that are un-constitutional. You like to quote Thomas Jefferson a lot. He Thomas Jefferson, also said that this Constitution will work as long as it is governed by “righteous people”. When greedy minded people who have become career politicians and rake in more money than you I will ever see, and are looking out for their own welfare are constantly re-elected we will continue to be in trouble. I beleive in the beginning, the representatives and senators were to go to Washington, serve for two years and then return home to work and send some one else to Washington to represent them. If this were the case, there would be no career politicians and the budget would be much lighter without their huge salaries and their retirement program and benefits for us to have to pay for. I say, lets leave the Constitution alone and start following it and quit trying to change and it bend to meet our ends.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Lawyers. Thank the stinking lawyers. Remember when it was looked up upon when someone said they were a lawyer. Now they rightfully deserve to be looked upon as the lepers that they have become. It has become the dirtiest profession out there, and the most corrupt. Drugs dealers pay off lawyers who pay off judges, who used to be lawyers. Corporations pay off lawyers who pay off judges who used to be lawyers. Politicians, who used to be lawyers, pay off lawyers who pay off judges who used to be lawyers. Its a dirty, dirty thing anymore. My how they have fallen. And its easy to understand why. Money is their god. They dont have God. They have a god, called money. That is who they serve, and when that happens, this is what you get.

      • alpha-lemming

        The only problem with the title “Criminal Lawyer”??
        Too redundant!!

      • Bruce Bowdler

        What do you call 20,000 Lawyers at the bottom of the sea? A good start.

  • Bob Dinegar

    EXCELLENT !!! CONCISE & CORRECT!!
    “BIDDEN OR UNBIDDEN,GOD IS PRESENT!!!” JUNG.

  • Henry Ledbetter

    Chip I totally agree but would like to add President Ronald Reagan’s quote that “we are either a nation under God or a Nation gone Under.”
    We can either choose the Goodness of God or the Wrath of God. The truth is that “except The Lord builds the house we labor in vain to build it.” My house, your house, white house, state house court house, church house or school house, There really are no exceptions. Henry

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Amen brother. Your preaching to the choir.

      • Bob Wire

        Good observation, great come back ~
        but the choir is not where the battle is.

        So I guess it’s a pep talk!

        Like the Coach that confessed to his team members that he wasn’t prejudice or racist and that everyone was all “green” to him. And when he asked them to do something they should not question but just “do it!”

        Then he commanded them to all fall out and form two lines , Light green over here and dark green over there.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Im not sure what your saying, but yes, the battle is there. Its a battle of good versus evil Bob, and thats the bottom line. Things are from one of two places. They are either from God, or they arent. So if they arent from God, just where are they from? Me, Im going to attempt to go with God. Call me crazy, but hey, thats how I roll.

      • Bob Wire

        HMMmm? If your numbers are as I suspected and recently published @ 18% of the voting public , you need to get beyond “preaching to the choir”

        But you play it anyway you wish. Most of this 18 % is comprised of the 28% of American’s that would refuse to vote a DNC ticket regardless.

        So your progress has been small ~ but to your benefit you only need a few point gain to swing a general election.

        What you need to work on is the people not in the choir! And above all, do no harm.

        To do that will require some compromise ~ and this crowd shows no interest in compromise, leaving the DNC to depend on you doing great harm.

        I have nothing against pro business but why must it be hostile to labor?

        Is it that impossible to be pro business and pro labor? Why must one lose for the other to win?

        I know you are not talking about such matter ~ so they must not be a concern?

        They should be, as labor has been under attack for 30 years.

        Few wish to discuss special interest influence as well ~ so I’m left to assume we are still in the “PRO Business” frame of mind.

        Term Limits with campaign spend cap is all that been offered to address this matter of great importance.

    • Bob Wire

      which sound good to say ~ but only has purpose and warning to the ungodly ~ I’m left to suppose Reagan was speaking a warning to the ungodly among us?

      I know few such people and Reagan’s message not intend for me unless you are falsely accuse me of being Christian.

      See how easy it is to buy a bag of nothing ?

      and be so pleased with your purchase no less!

      Reagan was good at that and so am I? ~ but ofcouse he was President and I’m, ~ just a Plumber.

      It’s just salesmanship, some people got it, know it, understand it, use it and some are left amazed by it

      I admired the Gipper myself.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Now you want to talk about a salesman, delivering the sales line, you can only go to one guy, the master con man, the master blaster salesman of himself, William Jefferson Clinton. Now there is a story teller to beat all story tellers.

  • http://GOOGLE JHSUNBUM

    THIS IS AN OLDY BUT GOODY

    THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY WELL PUT AND I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT’S BY A YOUNG PERSON, A STUDENT!!! WHATEVER HE RUNS FOR, I’LL VOTE FOR HIM.

    Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists and Obama supporters, et al:

    We have stuck together since the late 1950′s for the sake of the kids, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has clearly run its course.

    Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right for us all, so let’s just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.

    Here is a model separation agreement: Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a similar portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.

    We don’t like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and war, we’ll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military. We’ll take the nasty, smelly oil industry and you can go with wind, solar and biodiesel. You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O’Donnell. You are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to move all three of them.

    We’ll keep capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street. You can have your beloved lifelong welfare dwellers, food stamps, homeless, homeboys, hippies, druggies and illegal aliens. We’ll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO’s and rednecks. We’ll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood .

    You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we’ll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us. You can have the peaceniks and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we’ll help provide them security.

    We’ll keep our Judeo-Christian values. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, political correctness and Shirley McClain. You can also have the U.N. but we will no longer be paying the bill.

    We’ll keep the SUV’s, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon you can find.

    You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors. We’ll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We’ll keep “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” and “The National Anthem.” I’m sure

    you’ll be happy to substitute “Imagine”, “I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing”, “Kum Ba Ya” or “We Are the World”.

    We’ll practice trickle down economics and you can continue to give trickle up poverty your best shot.

    Since it often so offends you, we’ll keep our history, our name and our flag.

    Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like-minded liberal and conservative patriots and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I’ll bet you answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.

    Sincerely,
    John J. Wall
    Law Student and an American

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      That is great. Thank you for sharing. And its the truth.

    • American Citizen

      How will you decide to divide? I don’t want to have to move.

    • sheldon

      It’s already been done… it’s called Canada.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        That will work for me. The liberals can go to Canada, where they can be with their own kind, and those of us that truly love America and our freedom, we will stay here.

      • JC

        The pair of you are guilty of stereotyping. Canada has the same cross section of political division as the US. Exactly the same.
        In fact if we’re going to draw new borders, let’s run one from the Hudsons Bay right down to Texas. The east can be liberal and the west can be successful. Some people of course will have to move a round a bit but that’s ok too.

      • sheldon

        I wasn’t trying to stereotype… I was referring the Revolution when the Loyalists moved to Canada and those that wanted to separate from the King of England stayed behind… to create a Republic, with a constitution, freedom, etc., etc., etc.

      • kate8

        JC, In other words, the Left will be Right, and the Right will be Left.

        Works for me. I live in CA.

    • dan of arizona

      I for one would like to know where he went to school it wasn’t harvard thats for sure well done

  • Ken Roberts

    Shall not prohibit is the main one and yes they don’t have the power to force a religion on any one; that is a God send if I ever seen one. The people who say separation of church and state are not well informed or are ignoring the facts, thank you we need more to stand up and print this again and again till they understand we will not give in to their vile attempts to kill any Christian religion it is not any other religion but the Christian religion . If anything we have been discriminated against time and time again. Who has ever filed a suit to stop a Buddha from being placed in the public square?

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      You got that right. My brother was harrassed at his job for talking about Jesus on his breaks, with a woman that was actually approaching him and asking him questions about it. They called him in and told him he couldnt talk about Jesus. He said sorry, Im going to talk about Him, as that is my job as a believer. To punish him, they transferred him to a store 50 miles away so that he would have to drive this everyday. He asked them if they would do this if he was talking about Allah and reading the Koran. They say they didnt want to talk about it. Imagine that. He ended up quitting and went to work at Walmart which told him he can talk about Jesus all he wants. Go Walmart. Yeah I know, you liberals hate them because their successful. I wrote a letter to the store he worked at, Scott’s Foods, and told them I would be telling my local church of 2500 people all about this, and that all my family of 8 was going to spread the word out in their church’s, and we all we going to stop shopping at their store. Their corporate offices then contacted my brother, and offered him his job back, but didnt do anything to their upper management people who did this, who by the way, fired another guy at another store for talking about Jesus 2 months prior to that. Needless to say, he told them he would never work for them again. Twenty years of service and this is how they work. And back to your point, had he been talking muslim or buddhist or kaballah, anything but Christianity, nothing would have been said. And that is the shame of it all. Needless to say, after many, many years of success, 3 months after they did this, this store was sold out to another chain. My Father in heaven took them out. I applaud His effort. He does take care of his own.

      • Walter

        Imagine No Religion

      • DaveH

        Good for you, Beberoni, for sticking up for your Freedom.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Thank you Dave. We all should stick up for what we believe in, or its not worth believing. And this freedom thing? Its what makes America great, and it’s too bad so many take it for granted, and too many try to dictate as to what that freedom shall be for them.

      • Bruce D.

        You are a good man DaveH. Your viewpoints are always well thought out. I see you are a very respectful man also.

  • http://None wayne

    TO Normal Guy.
    You are obviously not very literate on the constitution or other framing documents. I couldn’t read past your your first Jefferson quote. You left one sentence too many in that quote. “Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man.” Those rights are enumerated: life (aborted babies denied, aged health care will be denied), liberty (they would love to deny you the right to protect yourself, they want to force you to buy insurance, infringe on your property, deny your right to voice your opinion on television and radio, their goal is to control the internet in much the same way, …ad nauseum), and the pursuit of happiness ( force your children to be educated with morons, deny you the right to live among and associate yourself with whom you please, worship when and where I please). This is what Jefferson understood. So go back and study our nations history, instead of brainwashing excerpts.

    • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

      Wayne I won’t attempt to add anything to your post as I don’t want to be redundant.
      Zack

  • cliff g

    You can’t argue with a mental illness nor a person with a psychotic thought process,however its fun to pour piss on a liberal and call it kool-aid they believe its the drink of choice.

    • Randy

      Cliff you are really close to he truth though I must confess your approach is a tad to vulgar to gain the kind of traction we need in the marketplace of ideas. Consider this:

      In rejecting the existence of God the modern liberal rejects the foundation of right and wrong. When people cannot distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, vice and virtue we have a legal definition for their condition: Criminal Insanity.

      Next when there is no transcendent morality flowing from the character of God all decision making becomes based not upon objective criteria but rather upon political considerations. Hence the linkage between real cause and effect is shattered and political narratives become trump. We also have a legal definition for people who have been overcome by this condition (aka political correctness): Mental Incompetence.

      I would suggest that liberals are at some level both mentally incompetent and criminally insane. This explains quite a bit about the irrationality and destructive nature of the direction liberals are trying to take the nation.

      • DaveH

        One does not have to believe that a God exists in order to give respect to his fellow human being. I believe that most Religious morality is a valid code to live by, but I don’t believe that a person must believe in a supernatural being in order to embrace that morality.

        In fact, I think that pushing the concept of an all-powerful, all-knowing being that we can not see, hear, feel, taste, or otherwise sense, weakens your argument for morality to those who don’t believe.

        Our punishment for misbehavior is right here on earth, and it comes in many forms – criminal justice, social pressure, economic failure, and our own internal guilt when we misbehave.

        So, please, believe all you want, and teach morality all you want, but don’t try to force your religious beliefs on others.

      • TGoodreau

        Well said DaveH, well crafted response and point on!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        DaveH,
        Our punishment for wrong is here? what about the ones that do wrong and live a very good life and are respected by a great many people? Al Gore and Willy Clintoon come to mind right away. where is their punishment? I believe they will get their just rewards when they die!!

      • DaveH

        One can only hope, Joe.

      • kate8

        DaveH, Throughout the Psalms, David often laments the way the wicked prosper over the righteous.

        I do believe in kharma, or reaping what we sow. But it doesn’t always appear to happen in this life.

        Of course, it could be that we don’t see their suffering. One way or another, I do believe in Divine Justice.

      • DaveH

        Kate,
        No doubt there are many that slip through the cracks and never get punished for their sins. Such is life.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        But it is a fact Dave, that over 95 percent of people who believe in God, have high morals, and walk the high ground, and give and care genuinely about others. While you are a rare breed, as I can only judge by those I know, but 99 percent of the people I know that do not own up to there being a God, have no morals what so ever. But like I say, I cant generalize everyone for a fact, but Im thinking with common sense that if 99 percent of the people I know are like that that live without God, I have to think it is like that world wide. But I do know one guy that that breaks the mold, and that is my father-in-law. He is agnostic, and he is a kind, thoughtful and caring person with very high morals. Like you, he is a rare breed. I just know on a personal level, when I walked without God, Satan ate me up. I wasnt as bad as Saul from Tarsus, who later became a hero of the bible as Paul, but I was bad. Satan still chases after me, and he wants me back, let there be no doubt about it. And sometimes we get sidetracked, and Im as bad as anyone else, where we think its us Americans against the world, and conservatives against liberals, and all kinds of things like that, when our own Bible tells us, that our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces. I see it all over, and that is exactly what it is. You must be much stronger that I my friend, because If I didnt know for a fact that Jesus Christ lives, and thought that this was all there was, come here, live, die, and get buried, I wouldnt see a point in living. There would be no point. But as it is, if you stretch a measuring tape around the world and keep it going forever, the 1st inch is the time we spend here on earth. And that one inch determines where we spend the rest of the time on that measuring tape. But we will go to someplace for that eternity of time. I wish you would come with me my friend. But thats your call, not mine. Im just a guy.

      • http://outlookexpress louvnjr

        Beberoni, Gee I never heard it like that and the more I read it, the more involved I was. Pretty much all of it makes sense to me but what do I know. I truly believe in MY GOD, and I know HE’S real. I just know. Their are certain obstacles that we children must pass, and in the end, we will be judged. It’s NOT a free ride,but it may be the ride of eternity. It’s up to you to decide. I love your utmost ending about an inch. It makes a whole lot of sense to me. Thanks Lou.

      • http://naver samurai

        Well said! 100% agree!

      • kate8

        DaveH, What if, instead of a God we cannot see, hear or sense in any way, He is a God who is everywhere we look?

        What if God is the very essense of Life Itself? What if He is the force of Love, Creation, Expansion, Unlimited Energy most pure and holy? That which issues forth as all of Creation? And what if all of us are a spark which issued forth from that Essence (much like a drop of ocean contains the same components as the whole sea). What if the Universe is His Body, and we are all as much a part of the Whole as a single cell is to the whole of us? What if He is both Creator and the Created?

        As above, so below. As below, so above. On Earth as it is in Heaven.

        Maybe you have not looked for God in the right places.

        Just a thought. I do, of course, respect your right to not believe, as does God. I also believe, though, that without a sense of a greater Good of which we are all a part, something to which we are ultimately accountable, not many would hold to a righteous standard. One only has to look to the ways of the godless to see that.

      • BrotherPatriot

        Kate…I’m speechless. So very much as my personal belief and so eloquently articulated.

        Thank you for that read as it’s nice and comforting to know another shares such simular views.

        GOD is everything. We are all, One.

      • DaveH

        I decided a long time ago, that the most important thing in life is that you like yourself. To achieve that, I believe, involves treating others like you would want to be treated. But most important, whatever your value system is, you need to live by those values that you expect others to live by. I truly believe that not being consistent with their value systems is what drives many people to drink or use drugs in a vane attempt to escape the guilt that they feel from their lack of adherence to their own morality.

      • kate8

        BrotherPatriot, Indeed, it is a comfort to know that we are not alone.

        I am sorry to say that I do not know, personally, one other person who quite shares my view of things. I long to have such meaningful exchanges with someone who understands but, alas…

        I know there are others out there, but I live a quiet life. Perhaps at some point Divine Providence will draw us all together.

        Godspeed.

      • Monarchist

        Dave, your comment about internal guilt is interesting. It has to do with our “con” (with) “science” (knowledge) conscience.
        Our conscience accuses us and tells us when were doing something wrong. Hence the feeling of guilt! If it’s strong enough we need to do something to “clear our conscience” otherwise were “racked with guilt”. Left un-checked this guilt can cause all sorts of problems for the sufferer i.e. depression, sleepless nights, character flaws, relationship problems, ulcers etc. You name it and a guilty conscience can probably cause it. Every person alive has experienced a guilty conscience in their life unless of course
        their a sociopath. Most people would agree that the conscience is a
        very powerful part of our make up. So why do we have a conscience and where does it come from? Why don’t we just shake it loose so we can avoid the effects of a guilty conscience? I would suggest that it is a program down loaded from our creator to know the difference between right and wrong. Moses and the Hebrew people
        received the law at Sinai the rest of us had it “written on our hearts”. Consider the book of Romans ch2 vs.14-15 “for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, are a law unto themselves. Who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,
        and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing
        them.”
        Quite beautiful I think!
        I’m not trying to shove my belief on anyone here, just sharing thoughts and info. I completely respect the Athiest belief even if I don’t agree with it. The way I see it it’s another download from our creator! He has given us the ability to choose (free will) and we can even choose not to believe in him and he will honor that.
        In the end when all our collected thoughts and deeds are uploaded
        to God along with our conscienceness it will be up to him to judge
        what to do with us. After all, he made us so he owns us and he can do whatever he wants with us! That’s why I have chosen to bow my
        knee now, there’s just to much at stake! Thanks for all your comments. I really learn a lot from all of you!

      • DaveH

        I believe that evolution is a correct concept. There are many factors that cause mutations of genes in nature. The result is an animal with a different set of physical characteristics. If those characteristics are life threatening, that animal may perish before reproduction, thus that gene never gets passed on. Other characteristics may not be life theatening, but may for one reason or other result in fewer manifestations of those genes amongst that particular species.
        So, if I’m correct, there may be people who have no conscience (sociopaths), but most people do because there is some evolutionary selector that makes those with consciences more viable. I can only suggest that those without consciences don’t do well because eventually society gangs up and eliminates them.

      • http://naver samurai

        Dave H, I’m sorry to say that evolution is a lie and was said to be one by Darwin, just before he died. He even refuted all the work dealing with it.

        Another thing, you talk about treating others as you want to be treated? That sounds like “The Golden Rule” to me. You know..”Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.” I understand what you say about the “self”, but the “self” is not the most important thing. The self is always the least inportant. What’s more important to you, your “self” or your family? Friends? Children? Country? Living as God says to live? These thing are all more important than the “self.”

        I understand all your comments, but I hope you understand what I’m saying. Sounds like you still have some christian beliefs in you. Hold onto them! Hold onto them like a drowning man would hold onto something to stay alive and not die. I’m not trying to convert you, just state my opinion. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

        DaveH, I respect your thoughtful contributions to this site. Here’s a question I have wrestled with… If we can only be sure about things that can be tasted, smelled, heard, seen, or touched, where do the higher order thoughts, beyond those concerned with survival, come from, if not from a higher source than nature? Since science cannot explain this, it is hard to believe that such a universal striving is accidental. Or likewise with higher order malevolence. The alternative is to live and die in pointlessness. A science acquaintance of mine once wrote on our dorm “comment wall”: “what is love but two people trying to convince each other they are not lonely?”. I’ve always hoped he found a better answer with time.

      • DaveH

        If you read my above comment, I will go from there. I think love is an evolutionary trait that not all people have. But the ones without love in the past probably didn’t survive as well because people needed each other to survive. Imagine, for instance, a guy without love who might wander off and never come back to his family. Chances are the family would perish if they were dependent on the father to survive. So that loveless trait wouldn’t be passed on to the gene pool as often as the love trait would.
        Nowadays, however, society will step in and rescue the family, so there may be a growing number of loveless people in society. Maybe that explains the growing number of Liberals, lol.

      • Mel

        You believe in an invisible man in the sky you cannot ascertain or prove, live your life according to a book written by man that says you’ll burn in hell if you don’t believe in said invisible dude, and think that when you die you’ll go to this magical, wonderful, perfect place for eternity.

        Who’s the mentally incompetent, irrational, and insane one again?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Oh, but He is not invisible. Just because you cant see Him, should tell you something. I see Him everywhere. I see Him in the clouds, in the mountains, in the valleys. I see Him the vast variety of animals I see everyday. I see Him when I look at how my life has changed since I called out His name. I see Him when I look at my marriage. I see Him in the work I do, as I couldnt have done what I do before I let Him in. No stinking way. How do you know the wind is there? You cant see it. But you know its there. How do you know Oxygen is there? You dont see it, but you know its there. And if I stay silent, and I listen for Him, He tells me what to do. And the thing is, it is impossible for you to understand this, and I know that. How do I know? Because I used to be you Mel. Yeah buddy. I was the unbeliever once. Oh yeah, I was pretty nasty at it too, so thanks for not being a mean ass like I was. But I know now, and its nothing anybody told me. Its nothing anyone forced on me. Nope. It was Him that called me out, just as its written. He calls us, not the other way around. But He is waiting to hear you call for Him. Then He will come calling. He might anyhow. How do I explain something out of this world to someone who only knows earthly boundaries? Its hard to do. Im not a teacher, and I dont have that gift. All I know, is that, without a doubt, beyond any belief, that Jesus Christ is alive and well, and He will come again. No doubt about it. Until then, Ill just be a dumb human stumbling around on this earth, seeking to do His will. And its not easy, lest you think it is. Hardest thing Ive ever done. Christianity is not for the weak of heart. Lots of trials, lots of tribulations. Lots of lost friends. Lots of chastizing by people that havent got a clue. But its the best thing that ever happened to me. Have a great day.

      • kate8

        Beberoni, very well said.

        Unless a person has heard His call and felt the deep desire to know Him in his heart, the very idea seems preposterous. And especially when there are so many who appear to adhere to the outward appearance of religion, but know Him not….

        Scripture says that to those not filled with the Holy Spirit, scripture is just so much foolishness…”Some will say “Lord, Lord’, and I say ‘I never knew you’”…The numbers of the chosen are few…
        Many are called, few are chosen…

        It seems that some have a greater desire to know Him than do others.
        It’s like the story of the master who, when asked by the student how to find enlightenment, grabbed the student’s head and held it in the river. The student struggled and fought, and just before he drowned the master let him up for air. He said, “When you desire it as much as you wanted that next breath of air.”

        Everyone in his own time. And then for some, maybe not ever.

      • American Citizen

        His footprints and fingerprints are all over His creation if you look for them. It’s man who is the destroyer of His creation to our detriment. It’s the fanatics who spoil true faith. God is a loving God and does not want us being violent towards one another. It’s in the book.

      • CurtisS

        His footprints and fingerprints are all over creation? Question… is the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico a fingerprint or a footprint? The earthquake in Haiti… fingerprint or footprint? Taliban terrorists are those God’s prints or Allah’s?

      • kate8

        CurtisS, God is in all of Creation. If in the beginning there was only God, the Word, then all of Creation must be a projection of Himself.

        God sustains us as long as we live in harmony with Him, His laws. It is when we are in defiance of Him and commit thoughts and acts that go against His Ways that disaster becomes a consequence.

      • http://naver samurai

        Curtis, don’t go down that road. You may step on a mine and blow yourself up.

      • Colleen Smith

        Who’s the mentally incompetent, irrational, and insane one again?
        You are.

      • http://naver samurai

        Mel, don’t waste our time with this atheist crap. Get off of the Obama bin Laden kool aid, it’s frying your brain!

  • http://GOOGLE JHSUNBUM

    JHSUNBUM
    RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT
    If I miss anything – let me know OH’ I KNOW SEND MONEY !!! (sure fat chance)
    DAGNEY & FEDUINNC I changed this just for you guys
    How about this for a platform.

    Will you vote for me. – I know I won’t get the communist
    vote, If i do, you can stick the job.

    # 1 the laws on immigration are fair in this country. If you don’t like them you are free to change them. If someone breaks the law, they should be punished, not just sent back home, no exceptions. If you think about it; this is fair to all. A fair law that protects us, is a good law. These people cost the entire country BILLIONS each year this, certainly, is not fair. Check the laws in the other country’s if you don’t think our laws are bad. I do not believe in immigration reform at this time. Round up all the illegals and get them out of here first. Then, if we really need reform, we can work on it with no pressure.
    the politicians claim the jobs these people are taking are jobs that Americans don’t want. MORE BULL! After we send these illegals home. Cut off welfare. You may need to increase the police force for a time, but; I don’t think so. The police we had on duty because of the illegals may be enough. We will have a number of people that will not like working after being on welfare so long. Send em to AZ. Sheriff Joe will have a lot of empty tents at that time.
    After all this, and we have no welfare and no unemployment; we open the borders, for (work permit) people. Did I say anything about the people who hire illegals. This is also against the law and I will crack down on them – hard…
    I would rather have those people anyway – They are GREAT HARD WORKERS.
    It just may be, our workers can learn from them, than; we have some competition.
    Also :I do not think that, just because your people came to this country and you are born here, you shouldn’t automatically be rewarded citizenship. however; it’s the law!! Either we obey the law, or; work to change it.

    # 2 Bring our troops home, from all over the world, including the war zone. If the politicians are not going to let us win; what’s the point of getting troops killed. Now, if
    the politicians want to take their families over and do the fighting; I’m all for that.

    If these countries need someone to help with our enemies; we can rent them an army
    However; it will not be cheep. We will rent them a volunteer army including officers, and equipment. All equipment lost will be replaced at wars end – and no politicians involved. This will give us a chance of winning. These solders will not work cheep.

    # 3 Most of the troops returned will be placed on our borders This will not cost us one red cent. We are now paying BILLIONS to keep them in all these other countries
    These are countries that don’t like us. Some even hate us, and want us destroyed.
    THE FENCE WILL BE COMPLETED-FAST. Cal. wants drugs O K with me. Just run the fence from Tex. along the A z – Cal border and through to Canada

    # 4 I will stop all foreign aid. “They don’t like us right”!! ( a very wise, old adage )

    IF IT COST A DOLLAR, TO MAKE A FRIEND, KEEP THE DOLLAR.

    IF IT COST A FRIEND, TO MAKE A DOLLAR, KEEP THE FRIEND.

    The democrats say they all hate us, But; they love Obama. We can send Obama ! This will solve a lot of our problems. For one it gets rid of Obama. When we stop the foreign add. This will save us billions. We can use that to pay off, Obamas friends, the Chinese. Do you see how we can do things, by changing policy, And not raising taxes? We can eliminated the emigration problem , get rid of Obama , pay off china , save the economy , and make Europe happy, at the same time. All this and no tax increase. JUST COMMON SENSE.( You need a high school dropout in there.) First you must get rid of the career politicians. This brings up my next item.

    # 5 TERM LIMITS

    I just don’t understand; people will spend millions of dollars, theirs & others, for a job that only pays 170,000. per year. After one term, they do get $160,000.00 per year, for life, Gee think that could be it. NO; To these guys that’s nothing (starvation)let’s see now, when we retire, we get, starvation below poverty level,(SOC. SOC) Obama and the Democrats have even taken away our cost of living increases. this is a fund that we payed into all of our working lives & they have been stealing from it since it started. the democrats, dip into it so they can, buy votes, from the poor people These people don’t know any better. They think dems are, wonderful, warm hearted, people who love them. Now our kids are paying and they will never see a cent I will take all this away – the high salary, the pension, big expense account, travel expense to and from work. ( We the people don’t get all this why should they ? ) I was under the impression these people worked for us !! lets let them know – now!

    # 6 PORK

    I will not sign a bill containing pork – NONE If they place one before me. I’ll tell em to stick where the sun don’t shine !!!! I will need a special pen built that will last until they get the word. if need be, I’ll pay for it, out of my salary; witch we will get into later. I’m on a roll right now! I’ ll be on T V quite a bit and will have a system set up to inform the people of what is going on in Congress. Many congressmen will not vote for a bill, because someone has added something to it that they don’t like. I can respect that. If they don’t like a bill they should not vote for it. however; I feel the people should know about this – this means the bill, the congressman’s vote, what was added, who added it, and why. After you are informed of all this it’s up to you. When citizen’s, ignore their so called leaders, because they are lazy, they deserve what they get..

    # 7 salary

    I think the presidents salary $400.000 is wow! I think I can get by on $100.0000. You kidding me, with that expense account, I’ll live like a king ! Oh’ by the way, you can rent the plane & limos out. You want to see me you can come to my house. 100,000. this is 85,924. more than we get on soc. sec. and bommer gets 400,000
    # 8 THE ECONOMY what a mess! – main thing KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT

    I would like to get rid of the unions, and set up a new fair system. Only a fair system will work without them; It must be fair to all – OWNERS, WORKERS, STOCK HOLDERS, and all things involving company business ; INCLUDING EXPANSION OF THE COMPANY. A company must be allowed to grow. I believe a system based on percentages could be arranged that would be fair to all. With no union or union dues involved. this will take a lot of work by a great many intelligent people a lot smarter than me. Honest & fair people : This means no politicians and very few lawyers. The system must be fair or it will not work. Unless all the people involved are happy; the system’s no good. We must remember a contract is good only when it benefits all involved. When we get a system that works; we can bring all the manufacturing back to America. We will have a strong capitalist system and a great strong America again. Of course this will piss off all the flag burners; When America is a world power once more. We must watch out for the greed, because; It will soon follow.

    YOU KNOW THE RESPONSE TO ALL THIS; IF WE DO THIS, WE WILL END UP WITH A BUNCH OF, DUMB NO NOTHING, LEADERS . YEP, WHO GOT US HERE ?
    I THINK AFTER WE GET RID OF THE CROOKS AND LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD. THE SMARTEST AND BEST OF US WILL RISE TO THE TOP. I’LL NOT BE IN THE GANG BUT I’M HAVING FUN NOW.

    LETS SEE NOW – YA THINK I’M STARTING TO HIGH ? I SHOULD START A LITTLE LOWER – SENATE – CONGRESS – DOG CATCHER , LET ME KNOW ??
    REMEMBER – I AIN’T THE DUMMY WHO GOT US IN THIS SPOT. IT WAS THE GREEDY POLITICIANS ALREADY IN WASHINGTON.

    WAIT, I KNOW, I’LL BE A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER; THAT WAY I’LL HAVE ALL THE EXPERIENCE AND KNOW HOW REQUITED.
    I UNDERSTAND A BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS NOT REQUIRED. DO YOU NEED A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION ? I REMEMBER A PRESIDENT THAT NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE,
    BUT; HE WAS A DEMOCRAT. I NEVER MADE IT THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL HOWEVER; I DID START WORKING AT 14 AND – I DID OWN 3 SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSES. DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATS WILL HOLD THIS AGAINST ME ?
    JHSUNBUM

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Dude, get a running mate. Youve got a good platform that I want incorporated into this country.

    • MHamilton

      Too often, a college education eradicates the God-given Common Sense most of us are born with. Should you choose to run, you would have my vote!

    • DaveH

      JHSUNBUM says “I would like to get rid of the unions, and set up a new fair system. Only a fair system will work without them; It must be fair to all – OWNERS, WORKERS, STOCK HOLDERS, and all things involving company business”.
      And who decides “fair”, JH? Sounds like more Government to me.
      We had the fairest system of all, strict property ownership and control by the owner, but we let it go. Voluntary contracts result from that property ownership. If you want what somebody else possesses, you offer an exchange. It might be labor, or money, or other goods. Nobody but the possessor of the property or the potential acquisitor decides the conditions of that voluntary exchange. Government would only become involved in cases of fraud.
      What could be more “fair” than that?
      I wouldn’t vote for you or anybody else who advocates force on good citizens.

    • slickporsche

      I had a lot of fun reading this and thankyou. A lot of truth to what you have to say.

  • s c

    Withou a doubt, pouring urine out of a boot is more enjoyable than trying to reason with someone of the liberal/’Dem’/progressive persuasion. Proof of that occurs almost every day.

    • Al Sieber

      I can see that here. you’re right.

      • dan of arizona

        wish i had said that

  • Viktor Leben

    Normal Guy,

    Very good comment ! Thought provoking ! These quotes pertain to the reasoning to change a law. It might be reasonable to change a law, but you have to go through some type of process. Chip points out that the present Constitutional law states the supremacy of Congress to make the laws (of course with certain constitutional limitations !)…..

    This goes back to Aristotle’s “Rhetoric to Alexander” that a monarch commands by his own reason. The President and the Supreme Court are now the equivalent to a Monarch…. They have their own reasons and command us to obey … their command in practice has the force of law.

    The Constitution is dead. It is not a living breathing document, instead it has been killed by the Executive and the Judicial branches. Congressional authority has been nullified.

    As for the separation of church and state … American jurisprudence is Theistic. This isn’t France….
    You should quote the Declaration of Independence ( another dead document, thank you UN !).
    Jefferson made it very clear – rights are from God, they are not given by a Monarch… rights are not given and taken by the President or Supreme Court (as they are today….) ..

    I present to you the corpse, dead by trampling, please don’t tell us it’s a living document.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      I dont believe it is dead, I believe it is being put aside by men with interests of their own, who think themselves superior to those that wrote the Constitution. They are not. It is a mess, because lawyers and judges have prostituted so many things concerning laws and the constitution, and hold cases to previous established things in other cases. Its a joke. I dont know how some, now not all, but most lawyers and judges, how they can sleep at night. How can a lawyer sit there and take all that money and let a cold blooded murdered like OJ Simpson walk out a free man? How do they show up in a divorce, and the woman cheated on the husband and walked out, then they give her the kids and make him pay her child support for 15 years. The cause of a lot of grief in this country is lawyers, who have it set up to pay them for everything, and now they are the congressman, and senators and governors and president, and its such an ugly mess. And then you add that 90 percent of them, hold money as their god, instead of God as God, and there is the whole source of the problem. And anybody that knows God, knows this is true.

      • American Citizen

        Woo, hoo, right on Bebe.

      • http://naver samurai

        I second that motion!

    • slickporsche

      Wow! A very intelligent observation and post. You are very correct.

  • Normal Guy

    Jefferson disagrees with you, the constitution must be a living document, it must be refective of its time. Tendsof millions of Americans the majority disagree with you..

    “A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48

    “A schism in our Union… would be an incurable evil, because near friends falling out, never re-unite cordially; whereas, all of us going together, we shall be sure to cure the evils of our new Constitution, before they do great harm.” –Thomas Jefferson to Alexander Donald, 1788. ME 6:426

    “Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves were they to rise from the dead.” –Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:40

    “Those who [advocate] reformation of institutions pari passu with the progress of science [maintain] that no definite limits [can] be assigned to that progress. The enemies of reform, on the other hand, [deny] improvement and [advocate] steady adherence to the principles, practices and institutions of our fathers, which they [represent] as the consummation of wisdom and acme of excellence, beyond which the human mind could never advance.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813. ME 13:254

    “I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accomodate ourselves to them and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also and keep pace with the times.” –Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:40

    “The idea that institutions established for the use of the nation cannot be touched nor modified even to make them answer their end because of rights gratuitously supposed in those employed to manage them in trust for the public, may perhaps be a salutary provision against the abuses of a monarch but is most absurd against the nation itself. Yet our lawyers and priests generally inculcate this doctrine and suppose that preceding generations held the earth more freely than we do, had a right to impose laws on us unalterable by ourselves, and that we in like manner can make laws and impose burdens on future generations which they will have no right to alter; in fine, that the earth belongs to the dead and not the living.” –Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1816. ME 15:46

    “Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the ‘wall of separation between church and state,’ therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”
    — Thomas Jefferson

    • JeffH

      You say tens of millions disagree? Maybe you have a source you can provide to support that statement. I think that tens of millions support the Constitution as it was written and do not believe it is a “living” document who’s interpretation should change with the times.
      The Constitution means exactly what it says and those that wrote it had a vision far ahead of their time. The Constitution makes as much sense today as it ever has.

      • Randy

        Nice try Normal Guy, thanks for playing. Attempting to cite Jefferson’s opinion on legislation as a justification for leftist usurpation of the Constitution just cannot be allowed to stand. If Jefferson was alive he would rebuke you for attempting to co-opt his correspondence into the service of your corrupt and despotic agenda. If there are defects in the Constitution the Founders made provision for correcting these defects in the Amendment process. The fact that the Left hates this is prima facia evidence that the modern American Left is either lazy, stupid, or wicked. I’ll leave you a couple of other Jeffersonisms that are in context and germane to the discussion:

        “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” – Translation for dumb as dirt liberals: God grants rights not the state and the state cannot destroy, amend , or extend rights.

        “And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . .” – Translation for truth challenged left wringers: Freedom and liberty only exist where there is an acknowledgment of God as the granter and guarantor of those rights.

        So crawl back into your hole, snake.

      • GoodMojo

        Randy,

        Simply put, that was AWESOME! Thanks!

      • Denniso

        Randy…sorry to inform you,but Jefferson and many,if not most,of the
        ‘founders’ were progressives/liberals. For their time they were open minded,tolerant and well educated and the elite. Does that sound like the definition of conservative? No…

      • Vicki

        Yes they were. That is why those of us here who are ALSO classical liberals dislike what big government control freaks have done to our good name. Just look at their writings. You can tell which are the liberals and which are the classical liberals.

      • Denniso

        Are you tolerant,open minded and well educated? There’s nothing ‘classical’ about that, that’s a liberal by modern definition.
        If you support violence,you are provincial and intolerant then you are no liberal,classical or modern.

      • http://naver samurai

        Duhniso, good luck trying to compare Obama bin Laden with our founding fathers, who were christian by the way. They believed in nature and nature’s GOD! Read the posts I’ve left to you through this site and educate yourself. Are you an elite, higher educated, etc., person there duhniso? We really don’t think so. If Jefferson was as you say, then why did he sign all his documents: “In the Year of Our Lord?” Remember, Jefferson did believe in God, but didn’t believe in organized religion. Take you lib self off of this site till you can come up with some real facts and state your sources. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Denniso

        Samurai…you don’t get it, do you. First,many of the founders were Deists. That’s a person who believes in some form of god,not a specifically Christian,Hindu,Muslim or any other religion’s god. You and most religious people can’t figure out that most religions belive in a god,but they each think that god is only their god…that it is not the same god as other religions have. So being a deist has nothing to do w/ Christianity at all,any more than it has any connection to being a Muslim. So, this country is not a christian country just because the majority here are Christians…there are more registered Democrats than Republicans,would you then say we are a Democrat country?

        Now, why don’t you try thinking about that just a little while before you go off half cocked and post another rant…

      • http://naver samurai

        Sorry duhniso, wrong again! Only Thomas Jefferson has been recorded as a deist. Washington was a free mason (33rd level) and those of them that would become federalist were very conservative christians, so where do you plan to go with this lie? Tell me the sources you have to support these facts and I will take the time to look them up. If you are right, I’ll concede defeat. If not, then just quick spreading your lib, nazi propaganda on this site. The quotes and facts I’ve posted here are backed up with 15 – 20 books I have here in my home. Let me know if you want to know the names of them so you can look for yourself. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Vicki

        This should keep denniso busy reading for a while

        Religion of the Founding Fathers
        http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

      • Vicki

        Denniso says:
        Are you tolerant,open minded and well educated? There’s nothing ‘classical’ about that, that’s a liberal by modern definition.”

        That is why I said we need to take back our good name from those who call themselves liberal and then force PC speech upon us.

        “If you support violence,you are provincial and intolerant then you are no liberal,classical or modern.”

        Provincial is not related to violence. Being intolerant does not mean being violent.

      • Denniso

        You can’t imagine that intolerance of other people and their life style and culture can lead to violence against those people? I don’t mean being intolerant of murder,rape,corruption,greed…

      • Denniso

        I’ll look up the founders religion again,but that site doesn’t appear credible. Even if Jefferson was the only Deist,so what? Isn’t he one of the dominant and most important of the group? And, 200+ years ago,not many people w/ any religious doubt had the courage or ability to ‘come out’,so to speak, about any doubt they may have had,since Christianity had almost a total lock on our society and it was taboo ot go against it. Remember the Salem witch hangings?
        But, if I get to it I’ll look up the founders religious views again. My memory says there were more than just Jefferson who were Deists.

      • Denniso

        Samurai…I did look at the site Vicki posted and it lists Jefferson and Franklin as Deists, not only Jefferson. It also has several listed as Unitarians and Quakers,neither of which have a belief in god as a requirement to belong. Many in both of those religions are agnostic or atheist or deist.
        It doesn’t matter anyway because they were smart enough to include the ‘establishment clause’ in the constitution,which separates the gov’t from religion.

      • http://roger.drake.dbi@gmail.com gene

        You notice how they (the disgruntled left) always say that a majority agrees with them, they have studied the issue, it’s not fair or just totally distort the truth. Well, the basic issue is they can not comprehend the truth. It is similar to issues relating to evolution. They really do not comprehend the complexity of life. It’s all so very simple to their minds- anything is possible over millions of years. If we could only be a socialist dictatorship then, everything would be so much better.

      • Vicki

        A majority of them do agree with them :) that is why they want to turn the rest of us into demons.

      • http://personallibertydigest jim

        By “God” I would suggest the meaning is that no man (say King) has veto power over the rights of man. If “God” is, on the other hand, an omnipotent being then those who believe in that being should be allowed (under this enterpretation of the constitution) to make laws according to religious dictate. Then if you believe in that interpretation of the constitution, America should support devout Muslems for following there religious dictates (verses constitutionaly guaranteed rights)to stone women for adultry.
        Now this, of course, is an extreme example only to point out that religious concepts can be in conflict with constitutional rights. The people who argue for caution in this area are aware of this conflict and come down (conservativly) on the side of human rights over religios rights. After all should a law based solely on a religious belief be forced on those who don’t share that religion?

      • CJ

        Put your own question back on your argument and you have the reason for the Constitution. Something has to be used as the supreme rule. And the Constitution does that by proclaiming God’s law is used in this country, while tolerating others. This does not mean total allowance of others, only tolerance. There is a difference.

      • Cameron

        Our laws are all, or WERE all, based on the Ten Commandments, without which chaos would rein supreme. We must have rules by which all civilized people can peacefully co-exist, and these laws are based on and in Christianity and no other religion. Other religions condone barbarism in the name of God, or Allah.

      • kate8

        jim, what part about “Congress shall make no law…” did you not quite understand?

        The very idea of individual liberty comes from Judeo-Christian principles. Unlike Islam, Christianity realizes that, unless a man comes to the Lord freely and of his own accord, it is of no value. God allows us to defy His laws, and He allows us to endure the natural consequences of our rebellion in the hope that we see a better way.

        Being a loving God, He wants our love, not forced submission. To worship Him means loving that which He is: Love, Mercy, Holines, Justice, Peace, Joy, Abundance, Generosity, Creation, Beauty, Patience….
        He wants us to worship His attributes because we become that which we worship.

      • Kim

        Our Constitution gives freedom of religion along with freedom from religion, under the laws of our land. Not some other laws, like the middle east and their sharia law. It protects human rights in cases like these Islamic laws, and always should. Being created equal was a right giving to all races and both sexes by our God, the one and only true God of love. He also gave freedom of religion or freedom from rreligion, in freewill. It just takes time to get it right since none of us are perfect! It is terrible that the leftwing progressives want to tear this country apart at the seams, they think socialism is the way to go. Well I remember the hippies of the 60′s, and they are the ones behide this movement now and surroud Obama and his people.

      • Kat

        Bravo Randy. Well said!

      • Marc

        “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” – Translation for dumb as dirt liberals: God grants rights not the state and the state cannot destroy, amend , or extend rights.”
        Would the slaves of that time…and the American Indians… have felt that they were created equal ? Also apply that to women of the time.
        Amending the Constitution is something that Jefferson did support.

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        Randy I have to agree with you on that, that guy is a snake. when the Constution was written it took four pages to get it all down. When I went into the COAST GUARD I had to take certain oaths to uphold the constution and to protect this country from all invaders forgein and domstic. As far as I am concerned the Constution is nearly perfect as it is writen

      • Normal Guy

        So the constitution does not declare specifically that there should be a separation of church and state. So what… the interpretation of the constitution (that is the mandate of the supreme court and it was a brilliant decision and outstanding structure for making the constitution durable – three levels all overlapping) and the direction of the framers certainly makes clear that this is the intent – if you read the history you can see that this was certainly a point of contention. Oh indecently you one dimensional dopes will note that Jefferson wrote Madison after the US constitution was written and immediately started pushing for the bill of rights. You will also find that even though Jefferson was in France his influence was substantial.

        Here again is Jefferson’s take.

        “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.” –Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119

        “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.” –Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21

        “[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.” The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.” –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67

        “Believing… that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        And in reading that which you just wrote, no court in the land should be able to ban a city from wanting to put a cross in the lawn to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ on Christmas day. It is forcing no one to participate or think a certain way, but giving people freedom to participate in celebrating Jesus’s birth. But we cant do that now, so says the ACLU and the cowards in the court houses that back them up. This totally violates my freedom of religion, but it seems that only the Christian, the Catholic, and the Jews rights are allowed to be smashed. Everyone else’s are protected, but its open season on the Christian, the Catholic and the Jew. Its wrong, wrong, wrong, but I dont fret, because my God has already prevailed and won, and those that do this, well, they will get their chance to answer for it.

      • http://naver samurai

        1889 – The SCOTUS ruled that this nation is a christian nation. Get over it and get a life!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Normal guy
        i suggest you read the letters of the founders. A good many of them believed in Jesus as well as God!!

      • Normal Guy

        As I said this was a point of contention.

      • Kinetic1

        Randy,
        How do your Jeffersonian quotes defeat or supersede Normal Guy’s? Jefferson was, by all accounts a very wise man and a child of the enlightenment. The fact that your quotes confirm that he believed in a greater power do not make him the fundamentalist Christian that would oppose all changes that might offend your one true god. In fact, I think Jefferson describes the current conservative movement well when in quote #3 he says,

        “They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment.”

        This fantasy of “Original Intent” is just an excuse to resist the inevitable. Jefferson grew with the passage of time, and his correspondences are valuable proof of his wisdom. This is one of the men who WROTE our laws writing about the successes and failures, the effects and the realities of those same laws. His opinion flies in the face of many current conservative leaders and it stings. They flail and curse, then they try their best to convince their followers that our founders were all devoted men of Christ, ignoring the words of our founders contemporaries and quoting charlatans and frauds of the day if they must.

        Consider this. Jefferson considered English common law as the foundation of our Constitution, a law that some considered to have it’s roots in Christianity (sound familiar?) Jefferson argued:

        “For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.”

        Translation, as you might say “for reality challenged right wingers: History does not support the idea that the Constitution was based on the Bible.

        But let’s put this to bed once and for all. in 1797, John Adams signed and the Senate approved the Treaty of Tripoli which read:
        “As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

        I think these words are clear enough that even you do not need an explanation, but just in case, you may, on one hand continue to believe that this is a Christian nation, founded on Christian values and principles, or you may believe in the founders, the constitution and “original intent”, but you can’t, in good faith believe in both. And next time Newt, or Rush, or Hannity gets on his soap box and demands we fight the Muslim invasion and the usurpation of our constitution by Sharia Law, show him the treaty of Tripoli.

      • Jeeper

        There are basically two schools on the Constitution: “Original Meaning” (I think “Strict Construction” is another name) and “Living Document.”

        Documents such as the US Constitution obviously mean what the words on paper – as understood at the time of writing – say they mean. Otherwise, the documents have no advantage over a purely oral tradition. Further, this is demonstrated by the inclusion in the original of a specified process to amend it so we can change its meaning if we want to badly enough.

        The Constitution is, indeed, a “living document” if one includes the amendment process. If one believes that it is a “living document” because its meaning as interpreted by the United States Supreme Court changes from generation to generation, then the Constitution is, in fact, a dead letter. In this case, no argument as to its meaning can be rationally undertaken because the words don’t have a fixed meaning, anyway; so what would we argue over?

        The Constitution provides for amendment by Congress and the several states. It does not provide for amendment through interpretation by 9 members of a court, not even the US Supreme Court.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Christianity was introduced 2010 years ago, when Jesus Christ took the nails and died on that cross, and rose 3 days later. When Peter and Paul and James and John and Matthew and the rest of the disciples carried on His word, that is when it was introduced. Evil has tried to quash it more than once, but it never will happen. In the end, it will be all that is left. All other religions and all the immoral’s will be gone. If Im wrong, big deal, but if Im right, there are a lot of folks that need to re-think how they approach life.

      • libertytrain

        Denniso – I think one problem is that one site really isn’t the answer – perhaps several books that can verify the issue may help, however, none of us will ever know now what was truly in their hearts as far as this matter goes. Religion really can be such a private thing, and subject to the time in which one lives as to how it is worn on our persons.

      • Denniso

        You’re right,and just like now when almost all politicians feel the pressure to profess a belief and adherence to Christianity, though there have to be more than 1 or 2 who don’t believe in god,the founders were political as well and had to toe the line to some degree to stay acceptable to the public.

        It also doesn’t matter if most of the founders were Christian or not…someone knew the importance of getting the ‘estabishment caluse’
        into the Constitution…they were smart enough and had read and seen enough history to realize that religion should be kept out of gov’t affairs. People can pray anywhere they want but they can’t connect it to public institutions…pray at home,in the forest,in the church in your religious schools.

      • Denniso

        There are about 15% of the country who are non believers…using that percentage for congress there would be about 80 non believers,yet as it is there are only 1 or 2 brave enough to ‘come out’ as doubters. Given that most people think congress doesn’t represent the ‘people’ and they are more corrupt and evil,maybe we would would expect even more non believers in congress,by the ‘conservatives’ estimation. This goes to show that political leaders are cowed by the pressure of our dominant religion,and would our founders have been any more honest or courageous if they doubted the existence of god or Jesus as god?

      • Bababa’s mom

        The Constitution is living and breathing just as the bible and it is as applicable today as yesterday without change of interpreation. If it needs to be changed there is a process by which amendments can be made. Without that it stands as is. Our courts and presidents have bypassed this process to put their personal agendas forward. This needs to stop. In God we have trusted and need to continue to trust.

      • Jay

        The Bible is NOT a living document, we are not free to add to or take away from the Holy Scriptures as the False Teachers would have us believe.
        The Constitution is NOT a living document, we can however add amendments to it but we cannot LEGALLY take away from it.

      • Jeanetta Nipper

        Sooo… the Bible is not a living document?? I can tell you’ve never read it. How ’bout this…Heb 4:12 For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.
        You can run, but you can’t hide.

      • http://INTERNETEXPLORER GUNDOCTOR

        jay…..hope your not including the amendments in your “taking away from it rant”……because we can repeal amendments! unless you are another senseless “democrap”, which I have my suspicions of, get all your ducks lined up before you attempt to fire!

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        Jay read Revelation 22 verse 19. This verse says it all about the bible if you take away from it then God shall take away his part from the book of life. The constution is just fine as it stands it does NOT need to be rewriten or anything else.
        Remember that this prez we have is the begining of the end of this country he hates everything about it so does pelosi and frankinstein these are people we have to get out of office they are whats is wrong with this country. They want a one religin country with them at the head .

      • Kim

        Yes you can take from the costitution by repealing an admendment through congressional admendments and ratifing by the votes of at least 38 states. And no you can not add to God’s word, but it is living because the Word is God, look at the Gospel of John

      • http://naver samurai

        Jay you have just buried yourself in a pile of stupidity! To others that answered his persons post, I agree with you all! It seems jay doesn’t know our Constitution, processes, or the Bilibe at all. Just ignore him as he is just trying to “stir up the waters.”

      • Cameron

        When will people understand that our Constitution is NOT a “living, breathing” document. It does NOT change with the times, and neither does the Bible. You can find examples in the Bible that echo today’s problems almost as if the Bible was written yesterday, and the Bible provides solutions to every problem, as written. Our Constitution means what it meant when it was written, and so does the Bible.

      • http://naver samurai

        100% agree!

      • sylviaM

        JeffH I agree with the atatement that the Constitution is NOT a living document but instead a DOCUMENT to live by. as is the TEN COMANDMENTS, I carry with me at all times a hand book of the CONSTITUTION, and I also think it should be on every school wall if not in every school room.
        Also no-where in the CONSTITUTION does it say there is a separation of CHURCH & STATE. If it were to be true then WHY is it on every aspect of the GOVERNMENT including the OATH THAT ALL TAKE WHEN SWORN IN. Even on the MONEY we spend for our selves. Even the LAW says we have Civil RIghts as well as GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, so on that all I have to say is GOD BLESS AMERICA and Mr. WOODS

      • http://INTERNETEXPLORER GUNDOCTOR

        hear! hear! say it like it is…keep it simple. (but even then the liberals won’t get it right, because it is not the way “they” want it).

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        SylviaM have you taken a good look at the front of the buildings of not only congress but the suppream court they all have basically the same words written on them and the one word that really stands out is GOD if these sinners we have in office now stopped to look they might understand what our founding fathers had to say. And by the way this prez we have wants to have IN GOD WE TRUST taken off because as he says it discreamanates aganist all the other religions in the country I say leave the money alone do start making changes to it. Leave the words there.

      • Cameron

        Could THIS be the “change” our Fuhr.., I mean Leader promised?

      • kate8

        JeffH, Here, here.

        How anyone cannot see the marvelous wisdom of this document is sad to behold. But then, if your purpose is to take from some and give to others (namely, oneself), and wield power over others, one would need to twist and contort its meaning until one could derive such power.

        If all one wanted was to live in peace and freedom, and extend the same for all, it works just fine as written.

      • Kim

        Jeff H. it is living only in the respect that it can be ammended by 38 states voting to ratify an amendment by the congress to it. And also, it is like the Bible or any other book, it says want the reader wants it say not what was originally intended, to suit their wants and needs if you know what I mean

      • slickporsche

        What you really mean is that if you do not like what it says,you will like and attorey, twist it to meet your needs. Very liberal of you!

      • Kim

        slickporsche, no I am not a liberal, just saying people read, then interpet, to make something fit their own lifestyle, and not what the author intended. When people quit jumping at everything as rightwing or leftwing, and going defensive, about things that are truely important, start discussing instead of name clalling with hate, this country will stay divided. Nobody cares about or understands the two sides of these posts, the far left and the right are brainwashed. There is a big difference between the old democrats and the democrates of today. It is alright to be a conservative or a liberal, only if you do not try to force others to live by your standards. That is why America has always been a great nation. People need to come together as Americans, with freedoms that have been included in our laws, without all of this hate. These far left and far right people will never give up due to years of brainwashing. It takes prayer and love and the blessings from the God of Heaven to change people,

      • slickporsche

        I certainly agree with you Jeff. What would you have it you continually changed the constitution? Nothing! In reality, you would have no constitution. That is exactly how the liberals would like it.

    • Todd

      They are changing our “inalienable rights”.

      Life… The right to life is being changed through the new health care bill. Government officails will have the right to decide whether or not someone is deserving of medical treatment.

      Liberty… We have the freedom and liberty to express our religeous expression in any way we want, without any restriction from the federal government.

      Pursuit of Happiness… Excessive taxes are restricting and discouraging people from their pursuit of happiness guarranteed in the Constitution as being free from federal government restrictions.

      I really don’t care what gets put into the Constitution as long as it is in the spirit of what those who founded our country intended to keep secure from those in the government…

      Life.
      Liberty.
      Protection of personal property.
      Equality of all men before the eyes of the law.

      • Dan Burke

        Liberty? Here I thought they were slowly and carefully changing their wording. It used to be discussed that we had freedom of religion. Now the politicians talk about freedom of worship. Wait!!! I thought I had freedom of religion, to think and believe what I will? Now I can only worship as I please? Does this mean that the “state” will decide what I can think and believe? This sounds a lot like some variations of non religious “religions” I have heard of. Sort of like saying there is no God but allowing everyone to express some form of spiritual practice because the ritual is important for social benefits…. If that sounds confusing, well, I thought there whole logic was rather, um, off kilter. As for myself, I believe in God and believe that there is very good reason that mankind looks for God in their lives, because God designed us that way (or perhaps we came from God’s presence before this life and though having forgotten all are now unconsciously aware of the light and knowledge missing so we try to find it). I do not begrudge those who choose not to believe in God. I believe we all have the freedom to believe. What I disagree with is having government get involved, and if government is going to determine what is acceptable for religions to preach and try to educate our youth to “worship” the earth, then I am inclined to believe that freedom of religion is on the chopping block…. And to top things off, I read somewhere that government would like to extend school hours, longer hours and perhaps seven days a week. Hmm, sounds to me like they would like to take away our childrens’ freedom of religion if they could by taking away their sabbath worship (Saturday and Sunday are fairly common among majority of religions in America) and by reducing the hours we as parents could possibly expose our children to religion. But then this government is currently stuck in the idea that if a little spending doesn’t fix the problem then spend more. When I consider education, I find it ironic that private schools get better results with less money and states that spend more on private education may get negligible benefits over states that spend very little (such as Idaho having scores right up there despite spending some of the least per student). But when your objective is controlling the future, you MUST take a lesson from progressives of the past and focus on educating the youth to your point of view (and that includes making sure that their possibility of becoming “religious” is minimal because religious people are far more likely to be staunch conservatives like you see here).

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        Have to agree with you on that I am A member of the LDS church. And I believe that government should stay out of all religions reguardless of what they say. dumbama at one time said trust me i know whats best for the country he knows nothing about whats best for this country. remember he is a devout muslam. And some of the people he has working for him have all said the same thing that anyone who believes in CHRIST is an idiot well we all know where he is going. This prez has said that what is needed in this country is a single religion i.e. a unified religion that sounds like a dictatorship to me, this guy has beed called a lot of different things including the new messiah and also by some in the media a king. I ask you whats wrong people these days. this guy is no king and he is no messiah he is the anti-Christ

      • Cameron

        Shades of Bro. Dave! It’s too bad the only time some people even utter God’s name is when they put a four-letter expletive tacked onto it.

    • HFlashman

      Hard to want to engage in a losing Arguement there Chip. Don’t blame you for avoiding one and not wanting to “man up”. But a standing invite .. anytime you want to take on a Moderate, let me know.

      In case anyone decides they want to know the correct history, a good beginning would be Marbury v Madison. That decided the role of the SCOTUS in government.

      Religion. Ok..so the State cannot discriminate against any particular religion. And it cannot establish any State approval of any certain reiiligion. It either has to be religion free…or, to abide by the Consitution, it must allow all religions identical access to State programs, etc. Good idea Chip…i’d love to see the Hare Krishnas etc having access to our tax monies and common property.

      State versus Federal. Weal argument Chip. Sur a State could require a XMas creche…and to allow all citizens the right to be freed of state sponsored religion…they would have to allow every religion identical access. Because by allowing or by decree forcing a certain religious more upon us, it is in effect establishing State recogition that one religion is more “correct’ than others.

      As it stands now, there will be a few posters here today spouting their line of brainwashing about there being only one “true God’ etc etc. Yep…and it would be such a good idea if we had that type of singular view forced down our throats.

      If a State decreed a XMas creche? Then the opposite is true. It could say all religious icons EXCEPT a XMas creche. Oops…not looking too good now is it?

      And let’s say for argument sake that somehow the christian cult becomes an approved state religion. Which sect is the one which is correct? Mormons? Methodists? Catholic? Lutheran? Church of Elvis? (BTW…I am not insulting christianity by calling it a cult. By definition christianity is a cult…look it up. It’s a commonly accepted “correct” cult, but by definition, any organized religion is a cult)

      • Randy

        Moderate? Snort! LOL! Here is where the incoherence of atheism becomes visible for all to see. So answer me this Flash:

        1. Where do rights come from if not from God? Be specific.
        2. Why must men respect the rights of others if there is no God? Give justification for your position

        Now I know full well that you either cannot or will not answer these questions which is why atheists are so scrupulous to avoid them. Be advised that I am well aware of the clever smoke and mirrors arguments of the atheist community and for the benefit of other readers I will expose that which I expect to flow from your pen. I fully expect you to come back with some patronizing nonsense about consensus but even then you will scrupulously avoid any discussion as to why we are morally obligated to respect “the consensus”. Next, I predict you will likely appeal to reason all the while begging the crucial question as to what reason is and why are men under a moral obligation to be reasonable and rational.

        Note to Judeo-Christan theists: You just have to keep asking guys like Flash for the foundation of their ethical position. Demand they provide a foundation, plumb their epistemology, explore their ethical claims, and get to the bottom of their worldview. When you get there you will find one of three creepy crawlies masquerading as foundational assumptions:

        1. They will retreat into nihilism and claim that all is meaningless. (even though they have been arguing for hours)

        2. The will say “its just the way it is” and retreat into world class question begging (color this H for hypocrisy).

        3. They will appeal to their own wants and desires as if they were somehow authoritative. (ie. in rejecting God they try to become one in their own right.)

        You have to watch guys like Flash and not let them get away with their cleaver deceit.

      • HFlashman

        1. Where do rights come from if not from God? Be specific.

        Who said there is no god, or gods, or if there existed a god? You may say it. That’s your RIGHT. Who says you are correct? How do you know you are correct? This isn’t about whether there exists any deity or not..it’s all about the Right of the individual to hol whatever belief they choose without a false one being foisted upon them…whether it be Christian, Islamic, Shinto etc.

        But, if you want my own personal belief…Rights are inherent in Man. They are observed and protected by society to whatever degree and level of social evolution that particular society finds itself.

        2. Why must men respect the rights of others if there is no God? Give justification for your position

        See answer to #1 above.

        LOL…you are so easy.

      • MNIce

        HFlashman, Randy was right – you ended up begging the question. You claim,”Rights are inherent in Man.” Which man? Who determines what rights are inherent? Who qualifies as “Man”? Are infants included if they haven’t been born yet? Jews? Christians? Blacks? Adherents of this ill-defined “inherent rights placed by no One” concept have at one time or another excluded or denigrated the rights of each of these groups. Or as Orwell famously lampooned the socialists in “Animal Farm”, “Everybody’s equal, but some are more equal than others.”

        The religion of Evolution/Atheism emphasizes differences – supposedly some are “more evolved” than others. In contrast, the American concept of equality and equal rights comes from Christianity, “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:27-28) Jefferson et al. intended to confer this principle of the Church to the whole of American society. The rights to life, liberty, and property are explicitly protected by God’s commands in the ancient Jewish laws (Leviticus and Deuteronomy, most famously in the Ten Commandments). Genesis 9:6 gives the reason for the existence of these rights, “Whoever sheds man’s blood,
        By man his blood shall be shed;
        For in the image of God
        He made man.”
        These concepts, through Christian influence, carried over to English Common Law and from there to American law as well. Thus these rights are not from some undefined and evanescent “inherent” principle, but come from an identifiable Source to Whom those who violate them must ultimately give answer.

        Now, if you look at this “separation of church and state” in its proper context, you would see that Jefferson and his compatriots intended to keep the state out of the church. They realized that people have various beliefs regarding their relationship to the Almighty, and did not want the state to coerce one belief over another, whether through direct compulsion or through church taxes. Men are answerable to God for these matters, and God does not command the State to control conscience, only behavior. That is why the Constitution bars government from requiring a religious test, and prohibits Congressional interference in the Church.

        It is no coincidence that as government increasingly teaches the dogma of Darwinian Evolution as fact rather than a philosophical interpretation, it more rapidly erodes the protections of our individual rights. Perhaps it’s time for a First Amendment lawsuit concerning this establishment of Atheism’s chief doctrine.

      • Al Sieber

        HFlashman, I thought the Founding Fathers were referring to the laws of “God and Nature”, and the beliefs and writings of John Locke.

      • Kinetic1

        MNIce,
        “These concepts, through Christian influence, carried over to English Common Law and from there to American law as well.”

        This idea is difficult to accept since common law was in existence long before Christianity. As Jefferson argued:

        “This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.”

        Also, Darwinian Evolution does nothing to dispute your religious theory, but is simply the “theory”of how organisms change over time. They do, just look around. God may be the cause, and that’s ok, but genes do evolve. OK, Darwinian Evolution may be an issue if you accept as literal the story of Adam and Eve, but beyond that… The issue for you should be abiogenesis, or the spontaneous origination of life. Though even that doesn’t preclude God. So what is your issue?

      • TGoodreau

        Thats Right Randy, anyone who doesn’t believe in god has no right to make any arguments whatsoever. I like how you assume that they cannot have any valid points and dismiss them out of hand because they may not believe as you do.
        Let me ask you, why does religous belief seem to preclude any real intellectual discussion.
        All I can think of is this little gem from my childhood sunday school lessons, “cause the bible tells me so” then I grew up!
        Listen, God is apparently letting us do this on our own, so why don’t you either join the real world and try to solve the real problems we mere mortals face instead of dividing all of us into believers and non-believers its very counter productive.

      • http://naver samurai

        Sounds like a lib atheist to me. God doesn’t want us to do everything on our own, he wants us to pray for help, guidance, wisdom, etc. We can’t acccomplish anything without the Lord our God and Jesus being there with us hand in hand. You said you grew up? Don’t sound like it to me.

      • Karolyn

        Religion, religion, religion! “The opiate of the masses.” It’s not about religion. It’s all about spirituality. We are all one and all a part of God. If we lived as were are meant to live, government wouldn’t even be necessary. There is so much dissension and hate and tragedy in the world because of the way we’ve all been taught by the people who came before, ad infinitum. Man was not made in sin. Adam and Eve gave us the opportunity to have free choice. God made us perfect just the way we are. All we have to do is truly KNOW whyo we really are.

      • Jay

        Moderate? That’s hilarious. People today don’t even know the meanings of words any more and deceive themselves into believe anything they want to. You are correct about the meaning of ‘cult’ which means a system of worship of a deity or deities. Liberalism is a cult as well where man has made himself the object of worship and veneration. Liberals love to take Christ out of Christmas as you did so repeatedly. The Liberals in Florida try every year to prevent the free excercise of religion by attempting to block displays of Christian Christmas scenes such as the Nativity scene or even a simple wooden cross as well as the displays of the Jewish faith. The LIBERALS are the ones violating the Constitution not the Christians and Jews who are trying to freely excercise their religious beliefs.
        That is OK though, because on Judgement Day God will settle it once and for all, whether you believe it or not.

      • Kinetic1

        Jay,
        Do you want to put cross on your lawn? GO for it! How about your church, your country club or your private school? Enjoy! It is only when Federally funded land ( a court house, a public school, a police station) comes into play that you are restricted. So what’s the problem here? Do we need a creche on every block?

        In my town we have 1sq mile of land and 3 creches. We have a “Holiday” display in front of the court house, though it’s clear that it is influenced by Christmas. I don’t know about Florida, but here in our little section of California no one complains about our displays. People use their lights to spell out their choice of greetings, crosses, stars, you name it and no one complains. People place all sorts of holiday displays, religious and not on their front lawns. No one cares (unless it keeps us up at night.)

        My neighbors are VERY conservative, I’m fairly Liberal. We used to attend the same church, but we had a falling out with the new minister. I help my neighbor, he helps me and we help the rest of town when needed. Christians, Jews, Agnostics and Atheists, who cares. These are our neighbors, Conservative and Liberal alike and we all work together. We have a Memorial day service in the town Cemetery as well. Prayers are given without issue and our scouts place flags on the graves of the soldiers. We don’t care what their religion was, nor do we care about the religion (or lack of) of our scouts. We believe in service to others, regardless of faith or political views. At Christmas time we like to come out for the Lighted Tractor Parade, ride and sing carols on the volunteer fire truck and decorate main street. If you have the 3 wise men in your store window, fine. How about a Menorah? No one is going to complain or protest your display of religion. This is a religious time of year and a time to rejoice, even if you only come to see the lighting of the Christmas tree and listen to the community choir sing carols. Those of us who are Christen know to be tolerant, and so do those of us who are not. This is how some of us liberals live. So next time you think you know all about how vile and and humanist we liberals are, how “Liberals love to take Christ out of Christmas” I suggest you sit down and re-read your Bible.

        And now a little joke for you,
        A man dies and while waiting in line at the pearly gates he hears a conversation between a man and Saint Peter
        “Your religion?”
        “Jewish.”
        “Welcome friend, 3rd hallway down, turn left and enter room 17. Please be VERY quiet when passing room 5.”
        As the line continues the man hears of many people and many religions, but they are all told the same thing: “Please be quiet when passing room 5.”
        When the man reaches Saint Peter he asks “what is the deal with room 5?”
        Saint Peter replies “Oh, that’s the (enter your church here). They think they’re alone here.”

      • Marc

        Very good ! I have always wondered who the ‘correct’ Christians were… Methodist, Evangelical, Catholic, on and on…. (and even those have their own splinter groups).

      • Cameron

        Moderate-noun; a PC way of saying “mug-wump”.
        Mug-wump-noun; a person who sits astride a fence with his mug on one side and his wump on the other, waiting to see which way the wind blows.

      • Karen

        Mug-wump! I love that definition! Maybe I’m one. What do you say? There was a time when conservatives were known for keeping their heads in the sand and not wanting anything to change. The liberals wanted change and progress. Then came the time when liberals wanted change no matter what and conservatives knew some of those changes were not good for the country. Today it seems that, for the most part, conservatives have a handle on things and liberals have gone off the deep end. However, there are still a few good libs out there and many good conseratives too. I’ll go with the ones who are closest to the moral standerds of law and order I embrace. Am I a christian? You bet. Do I feel all should believe as I do? Yes. Do I think that my beliefs should be rammed down someones throat? Noway!! God gave each of us the freedom to chose what we believe and the freedom to change our minds should we so choose. It is up to us for we are responsible for our choices and the consiquences of those choices. Are we responcible for our invironment? Yes. Are we responsible for our way of life? Yes. Are we responsible for our neighbor’s wellbeing? Emphatically so. Do we need guidence? Absolutely! Are we perfect? Not hardly. We, as christians, are just a human and anyone and make mistakes just as anyone. However, we are to ask for forgiveness as well as forgive others. We are not to depend on our own intelligence but on God for direction in our lives. Then we are to act on His instructions that LINE UP WITH HIS WORD, something too many forget to check out. We must take care of our nation, our land, our neighbors and our families. We must forgive if we are to be forgiven. We must lead by example not force. We must obey all laws that do not conflict with God’s word, and we must pray for out leadership and our nation.

      • slickporsche

        I did look it up (word removed), and it is not a cult and if anything Islam surely could be and should be considered a cult. Where are you? Have they denied you yard priviliges, and now you are using a computer to make yourself feel sane? I hope they do not let you out, as you are insane. Anyway here is the finger, third from the thumb.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Christianity is not a cult. It is the word used to describe the followers of the one true God, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Alpha and the Omega. Like it says in John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God. Jesus is the Word. He was there at the beginning. He is God. He manifested Himself in the flesh and came down to earth as a lowly human. He greatly suffered for all of us, to do away with sin that man brought into the world when he disobeyed God and ate from the tree, the one thing he was told not to do. All other so called diety’s in other religions are all dead and buried in the ground, or are made of gold or wood or something that man made. Only Jesus Christ is alive and living. And the great thing is, is that He is the only God that has an appointment waiting for you and I, so that we may give an account of ourselves to Him. Im ready. Im rip roaring ready to be delivered out of this earth. But He says it isnt my time yet, but when it is, Im more than ready. Im eager to go. Are you ready? Because you are going to meet Him, face to face. I hope you are ready by then. Might be tomorrow, might be next year, might be 100 years. But you will bow down before Him and give an account of yourself.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      There are more Christians in this country than anyone else. So going on your assumptions, we should have everything our way. At least that seemed to be the scope of your post. And a government without God, will become vile and perverted and will be handed over to a lesser enemy, just as was with the Greeks, the Romans and the Medo-Persian empires. And when we decide to follow the immoral liberals far enough, God will surely remove His hand from us also, and the United States will be no more. Thankfully, the majority of us are Christians and that hasnt happened yet. But it will in time. Us Christians are not doing our job spreading Gods word as we should. The church has been infiltrated by false Christians, and hippocrite false prophets in the pulpit across this great nation. The largest religious organization in the world, which I dont have to say who it is, has fallen away from their first love Jesus Christ, and is in love with its own doctrine and teachings. Thats why they tell their followers not to read the book of Revelation, as parts of it reveal them for who they are. But God’s own word in Revelation tells us that “blessed are we that read the words of this book”. Its a mess in societey today, and people blame it on Christians. But its not that. Its clearly written that the world is Satan’s playground. He is going to cause a lot of hate and discontent, and his whole passion is to turn the world against Christians, and to turn Christians against God. Thats it. Thats all he has to do before his butt gets thrown in the lake of fire. But it is a fact, that the more we remove God from this country, whether it be government, schools or business or everyday life, the farther down the drain we will go. And thats a fact no one can argue.

      • HFlashman

        Well…my gods disagree with your god. So whose god(s) is correct? I say mine are. Under your premise, if I smother the legislature with money and gelt and get the State to agree…where does that leave you?

        BTW…just how, exactly, do you know your God is even in existence? When you find out, I believe it will be more than a long distance phone call back here to tell anyone.

        Religion divides…that’s a fact. your post and mine are proof of that. You want THAT to be a central area of dissension tearing tis Nation apart?

      • EltonJ

        Have you seen the video on the Orgone Energy [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPV-JExUPns ], HFlashman? If not, you might want to check it out.

      • Don

        That is what FAITH means dude. Google it.

      • taxman

        love your enemy. God forgive HFlashman. One day you may find that God is all around and your eyes will be opened! I pray that when that happens you will be a strong force for love, hope and freedom.

      • Betty

        My ex said he wasn’t atheist, but agnostic. I don’t think there’s much difference. He died of lung cancer a few years ago. Strangely enough, before he died, he “needed to be baptized.’

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Taxman,
        My eyes have been opened for a LONG time. Look at a tree. Man can not manufacture one. he can grow one but only God decides if it grows or not. I look at my children each day and marvel at them. Of the three, they are as different as can be yet very alike. Man can not produce them with a guarantee, only God can do that! Even in test tubes, God decides if they form. My God exhists! My God lives!

      • sheldon

        Science flies men to the moon, religion flies men into buildings.

      • Betty

        Science – the tree of knowledge.

      • NorthernDave

        Yes Betty… Science, the Tree of Knowledge. You know s-c-i-e-n-c-e. It’s what gave us penicillin to save millions from infections and insulin which allows millions of diabetics to live. Science and knowledge have made your life much less labor intensive than your parents’ lives and your grand-parents’ lives. Or would you give it all up to live life in a cave, constantly hunting for food and fire?

      • Sheldon

        Be nice NDave, I believe it’s a biblical reference.

      • Marc

        Betty says:
        July 30, 2010 at 3:46 pm
        Science – the tree of knowledge.

        If ‘science’ is so bad…..why is Betty using a computer and the internet ?

      • http://www.SaveLakeAtitlan.org Duende

        Imagination and experience are what motivates both science and religion. Science today is supporting in many ways what most religious teachers have tried to teach at one time or another.. we are all one. No harm in that sentiment.

      • Anna

        Depends on what religion.
        Isaac Newton for instance was a great scientist, and a devout Christian.

      • kate8

        HFlashman, religion may often divide, but the Spirit of God in men’s hearts unites. We truly are all one, and just as disease cells threaten the life and health of the body, diseased thinking threatens the life and health of us as a whole.

      • http://www.SaveLakeAtitlan.org Duende

        Amen Kate.. and once one removes the diseased thinking from their own minds and hearts) then the oneness becomes apparent in others. Quite a task I say (still struggling with my own)

      • Coservative at Birth

        Divides us? That means you are my mortal enemy, and my firearms are loaded and ready. You are a Totalitarian Socialist who worships not God but Man.

      • Normal Guy

        You’re nuts

      • http://www.savelakeatitlan.org Duende

        He is not your mortal enemy. You are your own mortal enemy with angry thoughts like that. It’s that type of thinking that keeps man from the loving grace of god… the grace that we were created in the image of. The rare few are willing to challenge their own limiting and fear/anger filled belief systems enough to be able to witness it for even a moment, never mind live in it. Jesus was trying to free us up so that we could experience God.. one on one with out intermediaries (that’s why the rabies wanted him out of the picture.. bad for business). Now look what they (including so called Christian churches) have done to his song…..

      • http://naver samurai

        I challenge you trashman, I challenge you to put down here who your god is. I know it’s not the real one!

      • Marc

        http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families

        seems the majority of Christians are Catholic in the USA… so they are the ones that are ‘right’ and we should be following their lead?

      • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

        Sorry to burst your bubble amigo but, if you add up all the other Christian religions in the U.S. they far outnumber the Catholics.
        Have a nice life…
        Zack

      • kate8

        Religion is of absolutely no use if one cannot see the One to Whom it should point. Religion is not an end in and of itself. When it becomes an obstacle rather than a vehicle, it should be abandoned.

      • Marc

        Ahhh……but they separate organizations, are they not? Do the Mormons believe what the Methodists do ? The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Baptists ? They are each different ‘types’ of Christianity.
        If the can’t agree with each other, who is right?

      • kate8

        Marc, Only God is right.

        Just as we were created in God’s image, man tends to create his god in his own image, according to his interpretation of who he wants God to be.

        It is when we become willing to let go of everything we’ve ever been taught or believed, and open our hearts to Him, that the journey toward knowing Him begins.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Kate8,
        Very well put!! I only wish these libbies could know God!

      • Cameron

        God instructed Man to worship Him and no other, but He didn’t say HOW to worship him. That’s up to us. None of us knows if our way is “right” or not, so none of us can tell another Christian his way is wrong.

      • kate8

        Cameron, Yes, God says to worship Him and no other…

        It does seem that many have fallen into placing their religion, their particular church and its doctrine, before God Himself. This would make even such fealty to one’s church, placing another before God.

        God does not tell us how to worship Him, although He gives us guidelines. Somehow I don’t think that multitudes of bickering doctrines is what He meant. I think that was Satan’s work, to divide God’s people and cause them to stumble…

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        Being that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ OF latter Day Saints (thats is the Mormon Church for those of you who don’t know) We do believe in God and we do pray in the name of Christ Jesus. This government if you listen close to what they say you Probably wont believe your ears when pelosi was asked if she belives in God she said who that and what party in he in. she is part of the anti-Christ crowd and needs to be removed from office along with all the others. This Country was founded on Christian pricipals and ethics Without God in this country it will be condemend just like Sodom and Gomorrah and then probably destroyed the same way.

      • Marc
      • Cameron

        Obviously not a PRACTICING Catholic.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        marc,
        Obviously she is not a true believer if she asks who God is and what party he is of!!!

      • Kinetic1

        Saul,
        Religion and belief are not a requirement or a yard stick for our politicians. If you have a problem with this, talk to the founders who made it so. As for Speaker Pelosi’s answer, clearly she was a) deflecting an inappropriate question that was bound to be more about her personal life than her political views and intentions (inappropriate for the reason noted above) and b) joking. If you are so deeply indoctrinated that you can’t accept a joke involving God, well God help you.

      • slickporsche

        Actually Beberoni,You have all lost the battle, and lost your republic! It is gone! You are however entering a new phase in human history that is a repeat of another time. Can you comprehend that? You are witnessing the death of a once great nation, and the birth of a sorry piece of S–T. Good luck with your new turd. I should have said we and our, because this includes me.

        If you want it back, it may not be too late, and you know what needs to be done. I do not mean voting, as that is trust in the government, and that we should not have. That is what got us here.

      • Normal Guy

        Slickporsche

        Treasonous,rightwing Nazi zealot. Just as dangerous to this great nation as Muslim terrorists. Burn in…

        I hope someone is moinitoring this site and hunts you down.

      • kate8

        Normal (?), you really seem like a nasty, venomous, hateful soul. Your life must be really small and miserable for you to be filled with such bile.

        Don’t you see that this is the kind of evil that divides us? Perhaps you would wish that all with whom you disagree would just die. That would be my impression of how you see us. But then, who would you all be able to vent your hatefulness on? You’d all turn on each other! Because love is not in you.

      • Normal Guy

        Kate

        You say you are a kind soul and yet you participate in this right wing extreme blog and think these zealots are nice folk. If you want to spend time in the sewer expect to get a little crap on you. This blog is definitley the sewer of political thought.

        If you think that the idiots on this site that advocate overthrowing the government using violence are anything but vile and should not burn in… for there position of violence…

        Then all I have to say to you is lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

      • kate8

        Normal, I have never said I was a kind soul. I am who I am.

        If you regard this site as a sewer, why are you spending so much time here? Are you covered with cr*p an fleas? My guess is yes, but not from here.

        99% of the hateful rhetoric I see here comes from your side. Wanting to overthrow a government that is against the people and against God is not hateful, it is necessary. Even mandatory, for the good of all. No government that seeks to take away liberty and property is worthy of existence, and those who would remove it are courageous an patriotic.

        We do see things very differently, but I wish you no harm. I do, however, think that your way of thinking is destructive, as are those whom you support as leaders. I would pray that God would remove the blinders from your eyes. If that is not possible, then He will sort it all out and you will be removed, along with all who seek to enslave others and serve evil.

      • http://naver samurai

        Normal guy? No, abnormal guy. You and your lib, dem, commie, atheist friend sound more like that NAZI’s than we do. You you even know what the NAZI party stood for? Read your history before you post, moron!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Sorry to inform you slickporsche, I have not lost the battle. I fight the good fight, and I know who is, and who isnt. And I know that God is in control, not the republicans, not the democrats, not the libertarians. God is in control. He gives us free will to mess up like we have, but when needs be, He will put his foot down, and Jesus will come to reign forever in peace. But weve got to go through this to get there. There are still a lot of people that need saved, and He wont come until everyone has had a chance to hear about Him. And they will all get their chance.

      • http://naver samurai

        Hoooorraaaaaah!

      • coal miner

        Beb,

        Don’t other people have the same rights as so called Christians? They are after all are tax payers too.No religions or prayers should be promoted in public schools.That is a private matter.Right?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        I didnt say anything about promoting it did I? I dont recall saying that. I did says schools are a mess since they kicked Him out, and if you disagree with that, I guess the truth is not in you. The facts speak for themselves on that.

    • Francesca

      Jefferson’s wisdom was astounding. These quotes portray what liberal and progressive used to represent, which was growing in ways that We the people deemed necessary, for the betterment of our country, while steadily and reverantly maintaining the dignity and integrity of the Constitution. The decisions made by our great Founding Fathers were alway reflective of their belief in doing things for the betterment of the nation. Somehow the voices of a few have been able to radically change the way these docs were intended. Our compassionate nature is being used against us.

      • slickporsche

        Francesca liberalizm is like cancer, it grows until it kills you. We are now whitnesing that death. I don’t know if the body can be saved at this point.

    • Pathfinder

      NO!! Abnormal Guy: Jefferson does not disagree; YOU do. His letter to the Danbury Baptists never intended the prohibitions against the free exercise of religion that the courts have, unlawfully, undertaken. In fact, it is you, and those who agree with you, that have been working to establish an official religion for these united states, namely the religion of secular humanism. Your attempts to supress traditional Christianity are the true violation of the constitution. And in so doing, it is you who violate the intent of Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists.

      • coal miner

        Thomas Jefferson was a man of deep religious conviction — his conviction was that religion was a very personal matter, one which the government had no business getting involved in. He was vilified by his political opponents for his role in the passage of the 1786 Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and for his criticism of such biblical events as the Great Flood and the theological age of the Earth. As president, he discontinued the practice started by his predecessors George Washington and John Adams of proclaiming days of fasting and thanksgiving. He was a staunch believer in the separation of church and state.

    • TyRockwell

      NormalGuy,

      You have attempted to justify lawmakers’ and courts’ going beyong their Constitutional limits. Jefferson and the other Founders anticipated a need to change the Constitution in the future, and established a necessarily and proper method of doing so. It is called the Constitutional Amendment. It is a process quite different from the ones too often deceptively employed, which is law-making by the judiciary, and by Congress and by the president through “Executive Orders” that violate the rights and limits already established in the Constitution which only the People can change. We need to ask candidates if they will uphold the Constitution against these kinds of over-reach by Congress and the Courts and the Executive branch, including the Departments and the Agencies.

      • slickporsche

        Do you mean that you still trust and believe what they tell you. If so, you are a real sucker for the politicians.

    • Abby

      Yes the constitution can be amended…by the people (not the courts, not even the congress); but until then, the current constitution is supreme law of the land and cannot be trampled upon by anyone.

      • DaveH

        Right on the money, Abby.
        Any reference made by Jefferson to changing the Constitution involves changing it the legal way, not the way Normal Liberal wants it to be changed (by unelected Supreme Court Justices). That would be a certain path to tyranny.
        The Constitution is not a “Living Document” in the sense that Liberals use that phrase. And we must be vigilant to screen out any Supreme Court candidates who think it should be.
        This is the only Constitutional way to change the Constitution:
        http://www.cato.org/pubs/constitution/article5_en.html

      • kate8

        DaveH, Abby, And as such, we cannot be bound by all these laws that violate our Constitution. Congress, POTUS and SCOTUS are the criminals here!

        We need a movement en masse to reclaim our unalienable rights. We need to stand up by the MILLIONS and say NO to all this diabolical evil being forced upon us. What’s more, we need to say HELL NO to these laws and refuse to comply! If only a few do this, they will go to jail and that’s that. We need to unite against this, defy this evil that grips the nation, and grind this beast to a halt.

        Stop buying from global corporations. Take our money out of global banks. Stop playing their game!

      • slickporsche

        Can you not see that your method has already failed, and will continue to do so????? Wow Its hard to believe people are so dumbed down by government.

      • kate8

        Are you talkin’ to me, slick?

        That is the kind of thing that the left puts out to despirit us.

        What you forget is, we still have an Ace in the Hole.

      • http://www.SaveLakeAtitlan.org Duende

        Well it seems like Bush not only trampled it, he ran a bulldozer through it.. and Obama’s ready to pave it over for easier access. Oh my.. a Republican and then a Democrat?.. uh oh…I’m starting to smell a rat here :-) all you who are screaming about Obama and can’t raise their voices as loudly over Bush and Cheney are probably muffling their voices because their heads a firmly up their….. (you fill in the blanks). Now don’t you go worrying over those other people not shouting loud enough about Obama.. where they have their heads is their problem (and maybe they’ll start to pull their heads out a bit if they hear your voice concerning Bush.

      • slickporsche

        Do you know the connection between JFK, and Bush Sr.? Do some research its pretty scary stuff and revealing.

      • http://www.savelakeatitlan.org Duende

        Meaning that Bush had a hand in the assassination? (I just googled it :-) That wouldn’t be a surprise at all.

      • kate8

        I read that the elder Bush was in town (Dallas) that day, among several others.

    • http://-- jenn Webster

      Of course the constitution can be changed with the times. That’s why we have a process for amending it. This is far more in line with the founders’s vision as any administation that proports to speak for the people and “make things up” as they go along. As far as Jefferson’s writings, he is again talking about what many in his time were familiar with-the State using its power to force a specific religion upon it’s people through laws and consequences (As the Church of England or Rome under Constantine making Christianity the “official” religion of the Roman Enpire. This was what the founders wanted to avoid, and rightly so. It is a far cry from a volantary prayer at a civil cerimony. Furthermore, the constitution clearly prohibits only the Federal government from instituting religion for the whole country. It did not prohibit the states from doing so-and as a matter of fact, several of the early states did support certain religions including support of churches. So, this latest outcry from “Living document” proponants, is misguided and, ironically, relays on writings not in the beautiful and carefully worded “living” Constitution-but writings that they curiously deem to be sacrosanct and “non living”. It’s a joke. If people are going to intrepret “wall of separation” so narrowly, (it is a brick wall!!!!)why are they inconsistent as they interpret “freedom of speech” so broadly referring to art, books, magazines and things other than speaking from the mouth? So, which way is it, gentlemen? By the way, (Wasn’t is Paul of “Tarsus”? not Paul of “Taurus”?

      • Cameron

        The Liberals’ idea of interpreting the Constitution is sorta like what used to happen (down South at least and maybe everywhere else as well) when a group of black men got together to play cards. The rules changed while the dealer was dealing, usually to the benefit of the dealer.

      • Cameron

        By the way, before anyone jumps on this as “racist”, it is simply an observation of how things were, and may still be but I no longer gamble so things MAY have changed, I don’t know or care.

    • American Citizen

      Normal Guy, the government power and false interpretations by the courts are suppressing religious freedoms. The government is to make no laws respecting religion period. Religious groups only try to make the government adhere to the Constitution.

      • sheldon

        Dr. James Dobson certainly tried to force his religious beliefs on US government policies over the past decade.

      • MNIce

        This is news to me. I never heard of Dr. Dobson threatening a government official. Can you give an instance? I know he spoke to his radio audience a number of times about various government-related issues, such as the failure of the Clinton administration to enforce laws against the interstate promulgation of child pornography, but beyond suggesting that people contact their state or congressional representatives, I know of no action on his part to “force” his views on any government.

    • George McM

      Normal Guy (NOT), I suggest you read the Federalist Papers to know exactly what the Constitution means. They were published in every major newspaper (and most others) plus printed and handed out so that every American had the opportunity to understand what was about to be voted on. The Constitution had to be approved by every State and it was after all Americans studied what it meant for years. The Constitution has never been a “living” document that can be violated because the wording can be bent to new meanings of those words. i.e. the current use of the word “welfare” did not appear in the dictionary until 1968. But, there is a way to change the Constitution – amendments are the only way and every State must approve. All 3 branches of government are guilty of “interpreting” the Constitution. The very act is unconstitutional and any laws coming from interpretation must be nullified. It is our job as citizens to insure that they are by forcing our representatives to do their jobs or lose them.

    • alpha-lemming

      Nicely done and reasonable….. UNTIL Government BECOMES the religion. They HAVE the power to force their views on people of other faiths and/or of no faith. Which they do every day, and if you disagree…. talk about an Inqusition… may God.. er uh Government have mercy on us all!! The Constitution is a “living document” only in so far as the amendment process allows which has been done many times… quite successfully. But wholesale changes??? That’s how cancer works and its’ wonderful track record has touched, I’m sure, nearly everyone in this audience in one way or another.

      I’ll end my little screed in anticipation of the atheists that will SURELY have something to say to this article. This is a political blog, and in a perfect world, ideas will be exchanged and hopefully some kind of consensus/common ground can be found. Stipulating that God is synonymous with good, altruism, charity, kindness etc. when you’re an atheist, your ONLY defensable position for argument is…. There is no person or group of people, no circumstance, no occurance, no situation or scenario, no THING in all the universe that is any more important than ME!! That being said…. we will NEVER have any common ground on which to form consensus because I don’t think YOU are the most important thing in the universe.

      • Cameron

        Islam IS the government in Middle Eastern countries. There is no freedom of religion or anything else in those countries. Christianity is the only religion that tolerates others. Mark Twain reputedly observed “Man in the only animal that has religion so other animals can’t go to Heaven. Man is the only animal with the TRUE religion, several of them! There’s more to it, but I’ve made my point for now.

    • DaveH

      Jefferson also said this:
      “I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious”.

      and this:
      “The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground”.

      and this:
      “Most bad government has grown out of too much government”.

      and this:
      “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them”.

      and this:
      “…the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scarecrow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one. When all government… in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. (1821)

      and this (my favorite):
      “The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first”.

      • Pathfinder

        Thank you, Dave, a great group of quotes IMO.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        DaveH,
        I can always count on you to say what I am thinking on our founders!!! Great post!!

    • Don

      Thanks for trying to twist a great American’s views with your warped liberal perspectives. Regardless of who whether the Constitution is a “living document” or established law, there is a legal way to change it. It is called a constitutional ammendment. We have thousands of men and women wearing military uniforms who have sworn to “…support and defend the Consitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic…” and they take their oath seriously…willing to pay with their lives. Likewise our elected officials and our judges have sworn to the same oath but are willing to sell their oath for a vote from those who have no clue what the Constitution says. I would suggest you read it and then decide how to make it “living”. It is the law of the land until it is legally ammended and neither the President or the Supreme Court have the right or authority to do that.

    • Ted Crawford

      An accurate and adaquate representation of one of Thomas Jeffersons core beliefs! An additional and equally adaquate repersentation can be found in the Constitution itself!! In order to facilitate that belief Artical 5 was included in The Constitution! The intent of that artical seems clearly to be to keep it a relevant, and “living” document!
      Whenever now or in the future it should be found inadaquate to our society it should, as it has been 27 times in the past, be refreshed. The current batch of progressives and liberals find that too restrictive so they just “deem” it to be changed, either by Executive Order, or congressional action! That was clearly, NOT the intent of Jefferson or The Founding Fathers!!

      • DaveH

        Ted,
        You may already know this, but from your comment it doesn’t appear so.
        The phrase “living document” is used in the sense that the Federal Judges (particularly the Supreme Court) should be able to interpret the Constitution not based on its original intent, but rather based on their feelings on how it should apply to modern society. So, for instance, if the judges feel that there is no longer a need for the right to bear arms they may ignore the 2nd Amendment under the meaning of “living document”. This line of reasoning is also referred to as “judicial activism”.

      • Bruce D.

        Dave H:
        Nice! Clear and concise. I will e-mail to my friends. I am sure you will not mind.

    • Pathfinder

      Abnormal Guy: I want also to point out that the constitution is not a “living document” in the sense that you use the term. I would hate to have a living mortgage like that. The bank could up my payments at will. In fact the very purpose of having a written document is to prevent changes occuring on a whim.

      However, I would not contend that the constitution was intended to remain compleately immutable and unchanged throught all time. If it was not to change at all; then there would be no amendment procedure.
      And this gets to the heart of my objection to the “living document” arguement. There IS an amendment procedure AND that very procedure is being ignored and circumvented. If some genuine need does arise; then it is the amendment procedure which should be used. Once you circumvent the amendment procedure; you may just as well tear up the document and throw it away. You have just migrated from the rule of law to the rule of man, where the whims of nine black robed tyrants is substituted for legitimate will of the majority.

      In addition, our founders gave us a REPUBLIC and not a DEMOCRACY because they studied history and knew of the problems democracy causes. The majority MUST be restrained from trampeling the rights of the minority (especially that minority known as the individual). A perfect example of democracy in action is a lynch mob. I will remind you of Jefferson’s other famous writing, the unanimous declaration of independance; “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.”

      Thus I must reject your “living document” assertion and your apparent subscription to unbrideled democracy.

      Rather let me propose that, when changes are necessary to the constitution, let amendments be proposed and ratified by the states. (As a side note, one of my favorites is ninth amendment followed closely by the thirteenth amendment.) In addition, let us retain a limited, constitutional, republic rather than an unbrideled democracy.

      • DaveH

        Liberals don’t want to change the Constitution the legal way because they know that wouldn’t be possible for most of their crap legislative ideas.

    • Wanda Murline

      Last night I read documentation about The Thirteenth Amendment. Most of the newer versions do not print it and I know why. But the 13th Amendment was ratified and is part of the Constitution. What is states is that lawyers who are part of the BAR are not eligible to hold an office in the Federal Government. I have not finished the entire document, but it is most intersting since the Demorats are a party of lawyers…and this is one reason we are in such a mess and why they write the bills that you have to take a class to understand.

    • Carolina Mom

      Normal Guy, Your Thomas Jefferson quotes certainly seem to support your decision, but you are assuming that your readers do not understand the literary methods used by our founding fathers. You see your quotes are mostly out of context. Back in those days, people did not have to be so very careful to say “this is what the opposition says” before every sebntence in order to not be mis-characterized as we are today. Therefore they were able to state the opposition’s arguments up front, and then systematically tear them apart in the following paragraphs. Nice try, though. You just don’t have the luxury of new-age, illiterates on this forum. You actually have to try and argue with intelligent, educated people here. Too bad!

      • DaveH

        It really wouldn’t matter what Jefferson said. He is not the Constitution. Normal Liberal will clutch at any straws in sight to promote his Liberal Misinformation.

    • WarriorH

      Van Jones.

    • JM

      It would take an Constsitutional ammendment to override the 1st ammendment. It takes 2/3 of the states to approve that ammendment. That is not likely to happen. Tens of millions would never be enough when it would take many more than a majority to make the change.

    • DougH

      Hey Normal Guy:

      The last time I checked Thomas Jefferson was not one of the 39 delegates who signed the Constitution.

      Even if he was one of the framers, his opinions still can’t be included in the Constitution unless they happen to be an ammendment.

    • John

      I find it interesting that you claim that Jefferson was talking about a “Living Document” In each case that I read in your excerpts Jefferson specifically stated that you had to “Change the constitution” It does not flow with the tides of change, if your country changes, and new things arise, then change the constitution to fit your circumstances… Read them closely

      - “Nothing then is unchangeable”
      It does not say it changes on its own, just that you can change it…

      - “we shall be sure to cure the evils of our new Constitution”
      Obviously he was not referring to the entire document, otherwise he would have called the Constitution Evil, he was pertaining to certain parts, otherwise he would have been calling for a new constitution. A CURE is not a OVERHAUL, but a tweak of something to make it better, unfortunately Obama does not understand this little thing. Ultimately congress was inclined to include the Amendments, which happened AFTER the date of 1788 that you had listed. The “Bill of Rights” was proposed to congress on September 25, 1789, which was the first 10 amendments.

      - “Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched.”
      - So he thinks Amendments are a good thing… your point is? I see no correlation to a “Living document” He CLEARLY states that the constitution can be touched and should not be considered like the “Ark of the covenant” as you would die if you touched it… will not go into that here.

      1813. ME 13:254 is an interesting quote as it has 6 added words to the text… Lets give this a whirl from your first statement “Jefferson disagrees [not] with you, the constitution must [not] be a living document, it must [not] be refective of its time. Tendsof millions of Americans the majority disagree with you..” Who are Tendsof? anyways… If you say “Tens of” I would understand, but if your going there we have 30 million uninsured Americans in this country, and something along those lines of illegal immigrants… There are your tens of Millions, a minority should never rule the majority at the demise of the majority… Just because a small percentage things wrongly does not make it right.

      “Those who reformation of institutions pari passu with the progress of science that no definite limits be assigned to that progress. The enemies of reform, on the other hand, improvement and steady adherence to the principles, practices and institutions of our fathers, which they as the consummation of wisdom and acme of excellence, beyond which the human mind could never advance.

      Pari Passu is Latin for “Equal footstep”

      Some things in this statement by Jefferson should be clarified. Science was instituted by the Christian church to actually learn how God had his hand into how the world was made. At this point in time when this was written, that was still the case. Unlike today where Science and religion have this appearance to be separated.

      … unfortunately I just cant spend any more time on this today.

      Obviously you have a list of statements that really do not defend your claims, rather dismiss the notion that the document is “Living” your statements are 1)taken out of context, 2)misunderstood by language from the past, 3)misinterpreted, and 4) amended or added to in order to make a point.

      In short, your argument does not rise to the height of a hill of wet beans.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      But your prostituting what he said. He didnt say prosecute Christians who put up a cross on the lawn? He didnt say take “One nation under God” out of the pledge of allegiance. He didnt say take prayer out of the schools, in fact I know for a fact they wanted prayer in schools. Look back at them. Its a fact. What the whole thing says, if you are at all interested in the truth, is that the government will not FORCE you to practice a certain kind of religion. Thats it, bottom line. Thats why they came here, to worship freely and not under the restraints the British were putting on them and forceing on them. For my courthouse to put a cross on its lawn in downtown over Christmas time, is not forcing anyone to worship anyway at all. But people like you seem to prostitute the truth and interpret it that way. You want to tell kids in schools they cant have Bible studies, yet there are classes on reading the Koran at some schools. There is tolerance training everywhere, saying we should be tolerant of people who strap bombs to the back of their 6 year old daughter and walk her into a mall and blow everyone up. But dont you dare mention the name of that Jesus guys, He is dangerous. Come on man, give me a break. Wake up and smell the roses. There is a Jesus Christ, and He is alive and well, and I sure wish I could be a fly on the wall and observe when the liberals that kicked His name out of everywhere, are brought in one by one to be held accountable for their actions, as I and everyone else will be. That would be sweet, but then, you see, thats my sin. I would love to see it just to see the revenge, part of my human sinful nature. Vengeance is my says the Lord, and He will take it. Good luck with your stand against Him on that day.

      • sheldon

        You talk about facts? Of course Jefferson never talked about “One nation under God” because it wasn’t ADDED to the Pledge of Allegiance until the 1950s! Jefferson had been DEAD for over 125 years before the Pledge of Allegiance was “amended” and the religious reference was added!
        The only British constraints were “taxation WITHOUT representation”, few people emigrated from the UK based on religious persecution. There are two basic facts you’ve gotten absolutely wrong and I haven’t even finished reading your post.

      • MNIce

        (Sigh) Did you sleep through grade school history? “Everybody” knows the folks who moved to Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1620 originally left England because they faced persecution for their religious beliefs. They first emigrated to the Netherlands, but found the society there was too libertine and was corrupting their children, so they decided to sail to the “new world.” Look it up, Sheldon. Mayflower, Pilgrims, Plymouth Rock, Puritans… You might also research the fate of William Tyndale and others in the 16th century who thought people should be able to read the Bible in English or questioned the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. It’s not happy reading for the squeamish.

      • Sheldon

        (Yawn) MNIce… did you sleep through Language class in grade school? I said FEW people emigrated from ENGLAND due to religious persecution. The Mayflower IS a FEW. By the way, William Tyndale died in 1536… long before people colonists were arriving in North America (so what’s Tyndale got to do with anything???) and he was persecuted by the both the Church of England AND the Catholic Church. Translating the Bible would erode the clergy’s control over the masses, which is what organized religion is all about… control. In addition to language class, you should have paid closer attention to history class too; you have a tenuous grasp on it as well.

      • kate8

        Schools were originally set up so that everyone would be able to read the Bible.

      • http://naver samurai

        “Religion, morals, and ethics shall be taught in American schools from now, till evermore…” Northwest Ordinance of 1787. Signed by George Washington.

      • slickporsche

        Well Beberoni, I would surly like to be the fly on the wall next to you, as it would be a real treat to watch it all going down, and listen to the liberals as the beg, and beg, and beg, all for naught.It is scary to think it may be in our lifetime.

    • kate8

      Try plaing any game or functioning in any organization where the rules are always changing and open to interpretation, and just see how that works for ya.

      Oh wait. That is what we’re doing now.

      I rest my case.

      • kate8

        playing

    • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

      Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that courts or other government agencies can make adjustments via case law or policies. Nowhere does Jefferson say that or that the amendment process is inadequate.

    • tnmccoy

      Normal Guy, that’s all very interesting. But to be precise, you Liberals—as loud and active as you are—are still not in the majority. You never have been, and God willing, you never will be. If you want a living Constitution, Jefferson and the other founding fathers provided a process to insure it: amending it. And the restrictions on amending are there so that crazies like you can’t willy-nilly change basic tenets of the document and how it serves a nation.

    • dan of arizona

      This seems to be the problem today,just change it to fit our needs and we will make it better.sorry i cant buy into that one.

    • http://naver samurai

      Very informative but, it what you are saying is true, then why did he sign everything with: “In the Year of Our Lord?”

    • joe_k

      Normal Guy,

      There is no question in the mind of a constitutional conservative that we the people have always had and do maintain the right to alter our laws, even our government. This is one of the unchangeable but inherent and unalienable rights of man.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48 As quoted by yourself above.

      The question is “How do we make those changes”

      To a liberal, change is simple:

      1) “Repeat the same lie over and over, for generation if necessary, until a new generation arises that holds that lie to be truth”

      2) Denigrate the foundation of the nation by misrepresenting the intentions, the integrity, the virtue of it’s founders.

      3) By any and all means, misuse, subvert, misrepresent the established constitution to the point that to do so becomes acceptable, or at least, unstoppable by the citizenry.

      4) Ignore the separation of powers built into that constitution for the protection of freedom.

      5) What you cannot pass in congress because it opposes the will of the people, make law through the judicial branch, which is a violation of that constitution.

      6) Failing the establishment of new laws by constitutionally correct means, the congress, mandate law by usurping the authority of the people through an elitist judicial system.

      7) Finally, once you have subverted the will of the people to the point that they can no longer resist, mandate law by use of executive authority, judicial fiat and congressional arrogance.

      That law may be changed is not in question. The means by which it is changes is, and must always be in question to a free people.

      But then, Chip is right: It is pretty much a waste of time to try and argue with arrogant, leftist, elitists who are convinced in their own minds that the people are, and of right ought to be, controlled by them.

  • s c

    I wouldn’t exactly say JM has his head rammed up his back side, but it’s close. Trying to reason or communicate with a liberal/’Dem’/progressive is not quite as much fun as pouring urine out of a boot.
    It takes too much effort to keep tranlating words from liberalese into English. I’d rather be serenaded with sharp fingernails on a blackboard than try and get a lib/’Dem’/progressive to listen to and fathom common sense. Doing laps in an olympic-sized septic tank is the only other option, and the luster wore off that choice many years ago.

    • kate8

      sc, another great post. And, as usual, good for a chuckle.

    • Al Sieber

      Sc, good post. if Chip wants to try and convince Liberals he should start on this website.

      • dan of arizona

        even fast eddie and smilie would’nt enter this one al

      • http://naver samurai

        Shhh! They might see your post and come running to the site and make some fool comments! Though I do agree with you on your statement.

    • Vicki

      The reason to argue with liberals is NOT to change their mind, though it could happen, it is to invalidate their lies so that thoughtful people who come here can learn the truth.

  • http://?? Joe H.

    Very good statement of FACT, Chip!!!! Do us a favor and forget your resolution to not argue with the liberals. Give em’ hell, Chip!!!!

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Here here, give em hell Chip. I second that nomination.

      • http://naver samurai

        I’ll support what you said Chip. The liberals of today have been trying to destroy the Constitution and this country for a long time now. It’s time that we, along with yourself, stand up against these enemies of freedom and take this country back. They ar so affraid of christianity that it is because they know where they are going (Hades) and are trying to take others with them. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! It may be hard at times, but don’t give up the good fight! Write me at my e-mail if you have a chance. We can bounce ideas off of each other.

    • Pathfinder

      Right on !! Chip, it is good to know that there are some people who actually understand the first amendment. In addition; it seems to me that the “wall of seperation” crowd have been ignoring the portion of the first amendment which reads “… ,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; …”. Based on a twisted interpretation of the first amendment; the court has, indeed, been prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Your thoughts and/or comments on this aspect would be most appreciated.

      • American Citizen

        I think he stated his opinions in the article on this.

      • WakeupUS

        Nope! Read your Constitution. Read books that are in the fore father’s own words. This is a fact. So sad that many have been brainwashed by our education system to think that “separation of church and state” appears in the Constitution. I am an educator and always had to correct children and some ignorant adults about this misconception.

      • http://www.kjnf.net jimmimax

        Good for you, I wish more teachers were like you, there is also a verse in the North west ordinance that goes, The superintendent of schols shall bring up our children in god religion and prayer, so much for the implied intent as ruled by Judge Blackman in the 1947 court case to remove prayer from school sounds like the congress actual intent trumps implied intent, now if some super sharp lawyer would pursue that course we could bring America back to Christianity and god! Keep up the good work teach!

      • http://naver samurai

        Hoooraaah! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • HHH

        Well, you folks continue to beat the “belief” drums, and all the fantasy that goes with it…. this is a secular government with secular laws and nothing in print regarding the laws of this country or the laws of the states, is in “biblical text”……. live with it!!! And that includes you Chip!!!

      • http://naver samurai

        HHH, what does that stand for? Being stupid? This country was founded by christian founding fathers. They believed in nature and nature’s GOD! What part of this don’t you understand? Don’t forget, you moron, that the SCOTUS ruled in 1889 that this country was a christian nation, so you get over it and get back to a church. Atheist moron!

      • Pathfinder

        While Chip gave an excellent article and expressed his opinion quite well. I do not think he touched upon the specific point of prohibiting the free exercise of religion. I would love to hear his input on this specific aspect of the topic.

      • Jana

        Actually the consitution is protecting the church from the Government, not the Government from the Church.

      • DaveH

        I am Atheist and I agree with you Pathfinder. The Liberals are stepping all over the Constitution with their “Separation of Church and State” myth.

      • SeaDragon

        Dave, I’m sorry you do not believe in God, HOWEVER, in America you are supposed to have the right to your beliefs. I spent time in the Army during the Viet Nam war to support this. Believe as you wish, just don’t try to deny me my right to believe as I wish. If there is public prayer that you don’t like, don’t listen, but also don’t try to stop it. I’m Christian, but if I hear a Muslim prayer I will let them pray, I just think of something else. If you ask about my religion I will tell you what I believe, if you don’t I will not get in your face and demand that you listen. Give me the same courtesy.

      • DaveH

        Obviously, you have not read my comments very well, SeaDragon. I have never tried to force my religious beliefs (or lack of) on others. Please do the same for me.

      • JD

        Denniso, you are as stupid as a jackass and as igorant as a fool. You are what is wrong with the thinking of many in this country. YOU are the problem. Go get’em Chip and don’t ever give up or give in!

      • Bluerider

        Amen, to that!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Evidently you didnt read DaveH post very well. He was saying that the liberals have prostituted the Constitution by doing their evil little deeds. He agree’s that they have made up this myth about separation of church and state. Dave and I are at different ends of the spectrum, with him as an atheist and I as a Christian, but Dave has always been respectful of others rights, and only has fought dirty on here defending himself against countless liberal attacks, where for some reason, they dont read his posts correctly either, and constantly accuse him of saying things he never said, just as you seem to be doing for some odd reason. I find DaveH to be very articulate and professional in his deliverance of the facts he writes about in his posts, and he is one of the smartest guys Ive seen post in here. I wish he knew Jesus also, and maybe someday it will happen, but thats not my call. Thats between him and God. I know who he is, and Dave knows who I am, and we both believe in an America that we have gotten away from because of this path of liberalism that is sucking us down the drain. But re-read his post, and you might come up with a different point of view.

      • kate8

        Beberoni, I was going to post similar comments, but you said it so well that I simply will say that I agree with you.

      • Travis

        My Dad was in the army during Nam. God bless you for your service. & thank you.

      • Azri

        ok, you boys need to step back. I’m Pagan. i don’t care WHAT anyone else’s religion entails as long as no children or animals are hurt. i ignore most religious stuff that isn’t mine. further i am a minister for my religion, can even marry folks :D i do think though that certain fringe groups of various religions are pretty sick an twisted. take sharia law for example? that’s some HARSH stuff right there!
        Dave sounded reasonable, but sea dragon was it? whatever saw the word ATHIEST and wigged out. why do people gotta get stupid about this?
        if people educated themselves, they’d find that for the most part, religions are the same at their core. once you get past all the ego of church leaders/members and all the gobbledygook, it comes down to: 1. don’t steal. 2. treat each other decent, 3. use common sense and love everyday 4. be aware that the consequences of your choices bleed over to others. why is that so hard?
        calm down, take a breath and stop panicking and jumping on folks. that’s what “THEY” want. divide and conquer ringing any bells ?

        the article was interesting & sad to, to see how far the constitution has been twisted.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Seadragon,
        I am a Christian and I too fought in RVN. I have been a poster on here since November last year and have read about all of DaveHs posts and not once have I ever seen him try to push his beliefs on ANYONE! He is one of the more reasonable posters here and a general good dude!

      • GregS

        Amen, Berberoni, Joe H, and kate8! DaveH has ALWAYS been spot-on with all the contributions he’s made to this Forum, and he has NEVER imposed his personal beliefs on anyone. I always enjoy reading his comments.

      • Colleen Smith

        DaveH is right on. He exercises his right to freely express his religious beliefs and does so with the correct assumption that it is not against any law and no laws are to be made to change that. Pay attention. He reminds me of S.E. Cupp. They have a brain and they are using it. I believe in God but do not attempt to force others to believe what I would like them to believe. It is called Free Will. It comes from the Judeo Christian bible and it will remain Free Will w/ or w/o those who believe otherwise. I like to say, “It is one’s God given right to be an atheist.”

      • DaveH

        Thank you all for your kind words.

      • Jana

        I agree with all of the above who are speaking out for DaveH. He is one decent man and we appreciate his great attitude and his wisdom.

      • Vicki

        I know that English can be a little fuzzy even for native born speakers. HOWEVER I did not get the impression that SeaDragon was accusing DaveH of doing those things. SeaDragon seemed to be saying that he/she agrees with DaveH’s creator given right to believe as he wishes and then going on to point out that SeaDragon does believe in God and how he/she approaches the different cases.

        SeaDragon used the pronoun “you” rather then “one” because he/she was talking directly to Dave.

        Btw I do agree with others about Dave being an excellent example of good constitutional/conservative values.

      • http://www.realcolorwheel.com/ DonJ

        I USED to think like that. But now that I know their Koran says to kill me for not believing in their religion I would just as soon have them shot before they shoot at me. Deport them all, and deport the illegals that are here too. There is no reason I shouldn’t feel safe in my country. Mr. Obama, you don’t want to know what I think should be done to you.

      • Bababa’s mom

        thanks for your thoughts. God bless you!

      • Denniso

        What Chip Wood wants,apparently, is for any state to be able to go back to the pre 1950′s,which was the beginning of the actual end of slavery. When Black Americans and white supporters fought to achieve equal rights and equal access to schools and public facilities. The fact that the constitution doesn’t directly address the terrible racism of our past is not surprising but does show the flaws in the ‘founders’ and the original document…many of the founders were slave owners and Blacks,like women,were ignored in the writing and thinking of the time.

        At the very least,the establishment clause in the constitution doesn’t allow for any federal money to be connected w/ any religious
        enterprise in any state…most of our public life has federal money involved,like it or not…schools,parks,hospitals,roads,city and state budgets…Chip thinks it would be fine if we wound up w/ some Taliban-like states,women stoned for adultery,hands chopped off for theft. What a pleasant country that would be and could be if states could pass laws based upon religious ‘values’ of their particular majority. Sure,go back to the 50′s when it was law that most women couldn’t divorce abusive husbands or would lose their kids if they did leave. Yep, the 50′s were a grand old time.

        Why am I using the 50′s as what Chip would prefer for the country? Well, he said, the country did well for more than 150 yrs until things fell apart…1890 or so + 155 = 1945…the beginning of the end of the ‘good’ times in Chip’s warped estimation.

      • Granny Mae

        Hey Denniso,

        How the cat hair did you make the jump from religon to slavery and womens rights. You have a chip on your shoulder the size of a house ! It’s time to sit up, look up and stand up and join the rest of the world before you are left standing alone !

      • del

        You need to go study American History and the Constitution. If separation of church and state had been intened, then why did the government provide funding to the missionaries to teach Christianity to the Indians? Hummm……I wonder?

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        denniso, you constantly pull the race card out. Whats up with that. You just inject it in there where it has no place. But since you brought it up, Id like to go back to where we are all equal, and it isnt allowed for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and others to go on live TV and live radio and call me a honky and a cracker and get away with it, because we have to appease them because of their skin color. This is the source of racism today, from the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons and Rev. Wrights of the world. That is 95 percent of its source. That and people like you, that keep bringing the past up because you live with the victim mind set. Rise above it, grow up, and move on. A black man is president. That means a black man can do anything in this world. Sorry, I hate to inform you pal, but there are no more racial excuses for failing. If Barack Obama did it, why cant anyone else? Because they refuse to rise to the occasion, and find it is easier to play the victim. Well its old, its worn out, and it no longer applies. So just stop it. Its silly.

      • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

        Perhaps I was mis-taught in math class but, I thought the sum of 1890 + and 155 equaled 2145; not 1945. Where did you attend school?
        Zack

      • kate8

        Denniso, that is one of the most moronic posts I’ve seen.

        But then, we must remember that you are a product of the progressive’s revision of history.

      • Kim

        Well Denniso, and to all who post here, every American has the right to their opinion, but if you leftwingers hate America so much and don’t like the way the majority of American’s are then you all can leave and go to whatever country that you put in front of American. I will also tell you that I don’t like the name calling from either side and sure don’t care for the far rightwing bunch much either. I do9n’t believe in telling others how to live, which is coming from the far right and the far left. We are supposed to be equal under the law, but that does not mean that we will be free from racism from any race, I see it from all sides, and there is only one thing that will stop it and that is love for all from all. It means that we all have to tolerate things that we do not like. If all you people would respond in kindness, and explain why each of you feel the way do, you might be able to work out some of the bad things that go on in this country. All of this hate does nothing, it is not good for anything and never solves any problems, just make things worse. That is why Dr. King was so successful, he loved instead of hated, even though he was hated by so many. As for Al and Jessie, they don’t show love, they are always looking for anything to jump on.
        The way we are headed now sure looks like the way other countries went when they ended up giving up their rights to government, U.S.S.R., GERMANY, CHINA,ECT… I for one can’t see why people want to be like these countries, it just don’t make sense! There are so many things that need to settled, but all of your attitudes towards each other stink

      • Kinetic1

        Del,
        Several writings by our founders, including the least religious among them spoke of the power of religion in upholding the social order. Point in case, the pacifist and pro-Christian party fearing an uprising among the Delaware Indians delivered to General Washington a letter asking for help. Part 5 of the letter read

        ” That the said Delaware Nation have established a Town where numbers of them have embraced Christianity … listen to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has been a means of introducing considerable order, Regularity and love of Peace into the Minds of the whole Nation—the[y] therefore hope Congress will countenance & promote the Mission …”

        Washington replied,
        “My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it.” [Note: This letter or portions have been misquoted and presented as "Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs"]

        These words are often used as “proof” of Washington’s Christianity, though in context it appears that the intention of this letter was to promote religion as a way to prevent conflict and not a statement of belief. If this tactic was used to effect in one tribe, it is fair to assume it was used in many. Mind you, I am not suggesting that there were no Christians in our government who felt that missionary work was a necessary part of their religion, only that it is presumptuous to assume that government support of these missionaries was a sign of our nations strict adherence to, or promotion of Christianity.

      • Kinetic1

        Zackery,
        Yes, I was amused by the math as well, but clearly it is just a typo.
        As to Denniso’s argument, it is extreme, but is it so wrong? The religion clause was an attempt to dissuade the fears of those who saw the trouble caused by sect domination in the states. Both in the original colonies and latter in the states, the “majority” religion dominated the government and no sect wanted to be the wrong one if the Federal Government chose an official religion. As Chip suggested, many people during those times would choose, or were sometimes forced to leave their home state due to religious intolerance from the state. This, of course declined over the years, but if we had not declared it improper, if not illegal for government to espouse one form of religion over another, we might still suffer from such persecution. I say might, but there are signs that such persecution is returning.

        Many politicians, both state and federal are fanning the flames with regard to Islam. Newt Gengrich has proposed a law against Sharia:
        “And one of the things I’m going to suggest today is a federal law which says that no court in the United States under any circumstances is allowed to consider Sharia as a replacement for American law. Period.”

        Since our Constitution restricts such action, there is hardly any need, nor is there any threat, except in… Oklahoma? Yes, the legislator of Oklahoma is ready to amend their constitution to prevent Sharia law!

        “I see this in the future somewhere in America,” Duncan, who chairs the state House Judiciary Committee, told ABC News. “It’s not an imminent threat in Oklahoma yet, but it’s a storm on the horizon in other states.”

        Under freedom of religion, a Muslim family may choose to practice those parts of Sharia that do not violate our law, but it is unimaginable that our courts would allow violence and murder. Still. if you Google Sharia law in America you will be inundated by claims that it is just around the bend. Most of this comes from the assertions of New York attorney Steven Stein who claimed that President Obama’s choice for legal adviser for the State Department, Harold Koh supported the idea of adapting portions of Sharia. False quotes are everywhere following Mr. Stein’s assertions, regardless of the fact that dozens of witnesses say that Mr. Koh never replied as Mr. Stein reported.

        Attacks against Islam are just one of the many signs that intolerance is again growing in America, and some states are worse than others. So is it wrong to fear a return to “the old days?” Washington said:

        “As mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow, that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protection of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations in examples of justice and liberality.”

        Does this sound like a man who would say, as Newt did that “There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.”? Should we allow the religious views of foreign governments to negatively effect our decisions? Newt sounds like a petulant child yelling “no fair, no fair!” Based on his words, if he were alive today do you think Washington would have supported laws against Islam? How about homosexuals?

      • Denniso

        Obviously,I meant 1790 plus 155 equals 1945…even the rightwingers should have been able to figure I made a typing error. Roughly just after the country got going plus Chip Wood’s ‘more than 150 yrs’ of the country doing well…that puts us at the beginning of the civil rights era. Blacks were still virtually enslaved until that time by all they were excluded from in our society. Got it,rightwingers?

      • Denniso

        Kim….if you understood the constitution you would know that a fundamental purpose of it is to protect the rights of all minorities,since it is always possible to have a majority dictatorship that has the power to abuse the minority who are usually powerless.

        Your solution to having debate that goes against the majority is to suggest that any minority leave the country…a typical rightwing mantra,going back to Reagan’s day,’America love it or leave it’. It’s absurd and mindless,since all of us are citizens and have equal right to live here and try to improve our country. Can you follow that?

      • Denniso

        Sorry Beb and Kate 8, if you couldn’t follow what I wrote. My point is that Chip Wood seems to think that everything was hunky dory until about the 1950′s and I’m saying that’s only true if you were a white male w/ money…for minorities,many women, and the poor,things were not so great,as they were not included in the best aspects of what America is supposed to stand for. Wood’s remark is typical of prosperous white males who for the most part benefited more than others,and now resent their lessening control on the gov’t and society.

        Blacks,women,hispanics,asians,gays began making progress in the 50′s
        and that means that the previously dominant structure has weakened a bit and those people don’t like it. Not surprising,since we all want to control our lives and place in society and resent it when we can’t.

      • usmadgirl

        Zachery,

        If you’re going to correct people, please correct them correctly. 1890 + 155 is 2045, not 2145. Where did YOU go to school?

      • usmadgirl

        Zackery,

        Just to add a note, I was NOT defending “Dumbisso”! Just wanted to let you know that you needed to be CERTAIN of your correction before you made a statement so you don’t appear as to be as “misinformed” & unable to add as he is!

      • http://naver samurai

        If I remember right duhniso, women’s lives and rights were furthered and made better with the passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920 and the black (both free and former slave) with the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments of the 1860′s. Please get your history timeline straight!

      • Pathfinder

        Thanks Dave. We may be opposites on our belief in God. But, just as I would not dream of trying to force you to attend a church service; I do not think you would have me arrested for praying on the steps of the SCOTUS building.

      • DaveH

        In my country, you can pray anywhere you want.

      • http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/29/60minutes/main2625305.shtml cemott3rd

        Since state and local governments all receive Federal funds through the mandate of the US Congress they are therefore bound to not utilize these funds (or even a miniscule portion of them indirectly)to promote or “recognize an establishment of religion” meaning local governments accepting these funds (and they all do) cannot “require that the (abridged version of the) Ten Commandments be posted in every courthouse” nor “could a city or county government install a crèche on its lawn every Christmas”. Sorry but absolutely NOT Chip!

        Personally as an devout agnostic I could careless about the afore mentioned ‘issues’ but the slippery slope leads a long way down, and let the churches display that stuff with their own money, not mine…actually I’m dismayed that the pagan Winter solstice celebration (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti the birthday of the unconquered Sun) was stolen by Rome and think a fat Coca-Cola style American Santa is a more fitting diety to honor during that time of year here.

      • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

        Ah, yes. Congress cannot REQUIRE religion, but neither can it PROHIBIT the free exercise of religion. Therefore, all of the modern efforts to to curtail religious expression, whether in schools or other public settings, are unconstitutional.

      • Kinetic1

        Allan,
        Allowing the display or practice of any one religion is tantamount to supporting that one religion. Some say the answer is to allow displays of all religions that request the opportunity, but this is impossible as the very support of religion in general is not permitted. It is for that simple reason that we avoid all forms of religion in our schools unless it pertains to the lesson being taught. Mind you, my children have attended public school where the adults were tolerant or even supportive of prayer at graduation and recognition of Christmas and Chanukah, but only because we as a community agreed to it. It required a degree of tolerance on the part of some, and no single denomination was favored. Sometimes the law is about community and not the entire country.

      • kate8

        k – Congress does not have the authority to allow or disallow the “practice or display” of one’s religion.

        They cannot force us to practice religion, nor can they prohibit us in any way. Our free exercise of our religious beliefs is, Constitutionally, entirely beyond the reach, scope and regulation of Congress or any part of government.

        “Congress shall make NO law…” I don’t see what is so hard to understand about that.

      • http://naver samurai

        Read the 1st Amendment! I mean read it with no leftward tilt to it!

      • http://yahoo snake65

        there is no “federal” money as it is taxes paid by people of the states. and every liberal should read the actual(not the liberal version) history. washington and many others freed their slaves. many of the people adopted slaves so they could be free. there were many black men and women(BOTH BLACK AND WHITE) who fought and helped the fledgeling country get started. many were even envolved in the development of the goverment.
        liberals should realize that if they achieve their goal….who is going to come up with the “free money”? the rest of the world would come down on us and take over. understand?

      • http://yahoo snake65

        again the liberal bs,cs,hs, and all other s’s come to the fore front.
        all the federal buildings and monuments have biblical sayings on them. put there by the builders under instrutions by the MEN OF THE GOVERNMENT!!!! the separation of government and the church had to do with one NOT CONTROLING the other. NOT PRAYERS IN PUBLIC OR SCHOOL OR ANY OTHER THING THE LIBERALS POINT TO..liberals or others should get the facts before putting foot in mouth…….

      • Pathfinder

        cemott3rd : The real slippery slope is the feds using tax money as a carrot and stick on the states. Such funds should not be distributed to the states nor collected from the citizens in the first place. The reason is (as you demonstrate in your own message) that this becomes an excuse to impose ridiculous restrictions on the liberties of the states and of the individual citizens. This is a perfect example of federal interference in matters that are best left to state and/or local government.
        In addition, your grasp of the First amendment is flawed. It does NOT require the banning of a Christmas creche. If your understanding of the first amendment were correct; then George Washington would have been violating the constitution by declaring a day of thanksgiving. I am sure that George knew the constitution better than you or me and was correct in his action.

    • Allen Benge

      I agree, gie ‘em hell. Perhaps your one responent believes Paul rode around in a Ford before joining Jesus. It was Saul of Tarsus, not Taurus, which is a Ford Motor product.

    • http://none lindymaeusa

      “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain SILENT!” ~Thomas Jefferson.

      An English missionary once said: “Silence GIVES consent!” so God bless you Chip for NOT being afraid or “politically correct” to TELL IT LIKE IT IS about the stranglehold this corrupt government has on us via twisting, distorting and abusing our Constitution to suit THEIR plans and pocket! PLEASE keep talking, keep reminding us of OUR RIGHTS under that precious document written to STOP the very evils that have been choking us at least the past 50 years (probably, longer than that but we didn’t “notice” it as much!)

      As a VERY alarmed and angry American concerned with the current stupor of the “majority” who “refuse to accept what’s being done to us by this insidious government” because of ignorance or denial, I applaud support you Chip as a TRUE American willing to fight (albeit, verbally!) for his Rights! Thank you, thank you! :-)

      • sheldon

        Ironically, it was about 50 years ago that “God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance and “In God We Trust” was added to currency.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        So, your blaming God? Are your arms long enough to box with Him? Go ahead man, have at it. Oh, and by the way, good luck with that.

      • kate8

        Beberoni, sometimes you really crack me up.

      • sheldon

        “So your blaming God?” First of all… look up the meaning of “irony”. Second, stop assuming or putting words in my mouth, the previous post stated something about the evils of the last 50 years… hence the irony. Third… it’s ‘you’re’ not “your”.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Your or you’re, who cares. I did bad in English class, so sue me.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Sheldon,
        you may be right on the pledge, but you couldn’t be much more wrong about the currency!! In God We Trust was added to our coinage during the civil war times!!! I am a coin collector and I have coins from the 1800s that have that motto on them, so take another GUESS!

      • Sheldon

        Joe… you’re absolutely right… about coinage. It was added to PAPER currency in the 1950s (which is what I was referring to).

      • Sheldon

        By the way Joe… “God” was added to coins and paper money for political reasons. The North added God to coinage during the civil war for “propaganda” reasons, and it was added to paper currency and the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s to counter the godless commies. Neither of which had ANYTHING to do with the constitution and neither example proves that the founding fathers meant to infer God as part of the government.

      • Sheldon

        So yes Joe, you may have coins from the MID 19th century (circa 1860s) but that’s LONG after the constitution and every and anything relevant to the founding fathers.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Sheldon,
        you said “currency” not paper money. the coinage of this country are definately part of its currency!!

      • http://naver samurai

        Sorry Shelton, but both sides of the Civil War believed that God was on their side. So, where does the politcal beliefs fit into this?

      • Sheldon

        My statement(s) are still correct and my original statement about the “irony” is also still correct. JoeH is arguing about the word currency and its inclusiveness of coinage in its definition. Overall JoeH your currency versus coinage obfuscation is just a bit of intellectually chicanery… a weak and deceitful tactic. If I would have said “paper money” instead of “currency” how would you have tried to spin my comments? How would you have tried to confuse the issue? Whether or not currency and coinage are synonymous is irrelevant, and despite your failed attempt to disprove my statement on a technicality, my original statement is still accurate. At no point did you… nor have you intellectually refuted my original premise.
        As for Samurai… where do the political beliefs fit into this? Did the Confederate Treasury put “In God We Trust” or any other mention of God on any of their currency (that would be coins or paper money)? Therefore, the addition of God to JoeH’s pennies is wartime propaganda and has nothing to do with the Constitution, the founding Fathers or my original premise on “irony”.

      • Jana

        lindymaeusa,
        We have been silent too long. We have shown our acceptance but not speaking out. We thought it could not possibly ever get this far, but boy were we wrong.
        I am silent no longer. And Chip, thank you for this great post.

    • Granny Mae

      Chip,

      you said it all ! Thanks.

    • Granny Mae

      Chip

      I’m convinced that our poor constitution is in the hands of idiots that can’t follow the directions written on the document ! Maybe it is a lack of concentration or ADD or some other malidy.

      • Christin

        Our GREAT Constitution is available for everyone’s hands to hold.
        I suggest we all get a copy and quote it every time our freedoms are removed.
        The idiots that are in the Ruling Class WISH to BE RID of the American Constitution and its Amendments as it LIMITS their Power. First, they twisted and spun its meaning; then they out-right walked all over it and deny that it is a useful and rightous way to govern… even though they ALL took an Oath to uphold it. It acknowledges God as a devine Creator and their Godless Marxism/ Progressivism needs to replace our Holy God with an evil dictator.

        Time to quit teaching “Case Law” and teach Constitutional Law in our schools again.

      • slickporsche

        Good luck with that.I do agree though.

      • Pathfinder

        Christin : While I agree with the general idea of your post; I must point out a minor error. The constitution, itself, does not reference our Lord or God. This does not, however, validate the contentions of those who have twisted the first amendment. The historical context in which the constitution was written must not be ignored. And it is this context which supports your interpretation of the constitution. In addition to the unanimous declaration of independence, which acknowledges our divine creator several times; the continental congress called on the people to hold a day of fasting and prayer to ask God’s help in our war for independence. George Washington also declared a day of Thanksgiving. I will again assert that president Washington had a better grasp of the constitution than any of us posting here. Thus, it is only via the grossest of “innovations” that one can claim that the constitution would prevent a general support of Christianity. (Support of specific denominations,however, is prohibited.)

    • perry

      In my opinion, freedom is mostly freedom from coercion, theft and deception.

      As an American citizen I have a realistic expectation that the Federal Government will defend my rights and liberties as an
      American citizen preemptively over the regulations of any local governmental subdivision of the Government of the United States of America. (All the states are subdivisions of the Government of the United States of America; municipalities are only smaller subdivisions.)

      My constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties shall not be abridged.

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        perry are you blind to what has been going on, the dumbama is wanting to take away our right to keep and bear arms, his secratery of state has been secreatly talking with the un about small arms treaties that would take away our right to have our GUNS. How would you feel if some jerk broke into your house while you where there tied you up and took all your posesions all with out being able to protect youself. Remember what this prez did to Ill. he made it a crime to protect yourself, he had a law passed that if you stopped a crminal from doing his dirty deed then you go to jail. This dumbama has a twisted idea of how to do things, under his leadership we do have a problem, if you were to shot an invader in your house then according this prez you or me were the ones in the wrong not the crimanl. This guy has already done things that subvert the Constution. the president has no leagle footing to push his own laws yet this one has, he is also the only one who has not shown or made avilable his birth certficate instead he seald it that is aganist the law. In his first two speaches he came out and said that America is no longer a Christian nation and that any who believes in Christ is a moron now that is a very stupid thing for a president ta say. For all I know you might have voted for him in which case you are a maslam andI mean that in the foulest means and ways. Chip is right when he said that the constution has been twisted, this gay oops guy of a prez has deleated and rearanged this vital document to suit his own pricipalsdumbama needs to be impeached along with all his cohorts.

      • Betty

        No one listened when egO zaid the constitution “gets in my way’.
        It seems to me the so called Jefferson letter of separation of church and state was in answer to a letter from the Danvers Baptists asking hi to not repress religion, not to use governmrntal powers to attempt to do away with christianity. Jefferson said he would not. Shortly thereafter, he commented that he realized that his words were being miscontrued. In other words, this big “Let’s do away with God and the Bible”, was going on even then. He may not have believed in God, but he granted others the right to do so, without government interferrence.

      • http://none Scotty*j316

        The wall of separation between religion or of church and state was one sentence in the Danburry Baptist’s letter from Thomas Jefferson.
        The letter was a request from the Danburry Baptist, to ask for a federal holiday of fasting and prayer.
        Thomas Jefferson said he was not allowed to do this because of the first amendment, “which created a necessary wall of separation between the church and the federal government.”
        This was to keep the government out not the church or religion out of the public square.
        Jefferson according to his writtings believed; “That only a moral christian nation could rule themselves, because without these beliefs in a savior and the bible the very fabric of our society and our ability to rule ourselves would unravel.”
        Hmmmm. We have taken the road without the moral high ground enough that we may live to see exactly what he was talking about happen to us. Our lack of moral grounding and faith may take this nation down yet.

      • Jana

        Scottyj,
        You are so right. Thank you for common sense.

      • eyeswideopen

        Saul, you seem to not understand that our founding fathers didn’t want this nation to have a national religion. They acknowledge God, but no where in the Constitution is Jesus named. You really should read the constitution. Don’t you remember your history?? They were fleeing religious persecution in England. This site will be very enlightening for you. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

      • eclecticmum

        The 55 writers of the U.S. Constitution consisted of: 26 Episcopalians, 11 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 2 Quakers and 1 Deist. You really need to do more research and open your eyes a little wider.

      • kate8

        But the founding documents are dated as “the year of our Lord”.

        To whom do you suppose they were referring?

      • Normal Guy

        Let’s see,

        Dear Kate – I don’t think you are dear and I could care less about you but this is a standard opening.

        Do you get it, it is a standard opening, don’t be so obtuse, what a ridiculous position, use your head.

        Any other brain dead questions?

      • kate8

        Well, see, Normal Guy, that is a difference between you and me. I do not know you and wouldn’t make such a hateful remark as you just did, but I actually care about EVERYONE living in this nation, even including you. In fact, I care about ALL people, but that is another issue.

        Your response to my post is typical liberal twist, contort, cloud and evade. I do not believe that our founders used “In the year of our Lord” as a meaningless opening, or closing. They used it because that is how they saw it.

        In their writings they often referred to Divine Providence. Do you think that was a meaningless euphemism also? I think not. They WANTED God to watch over this land, and the majority of them did, in fact, often invoke the Name of the Savior.

      • http://naver samurai

        Normal guy, you don’t seem to understand that the statement “In the year of our LORD” is a reference to the year after the birth of Jesus Christ. Before the birth of Jesus, no one said the “In the year of our LORD/GOD, etc.”, so what’s your point? Maybe this historian should tell you to study up more on the subject. Remember, our founding fathers believed in nature and nature’s GOD. Do you understand? Remember also that this is a christian nation and shall never change from that as long as God has dominion over this country. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Denniso

        Sam…this IS NOT a Christian nation. This is a country w/ many different religions and even many w/no religion. Have you stopped to think about the differences between all the so called Christian religions in this country? Are Catholics included in Christianity by the Evangelicals? Do Mormons accept other Christians as actual Christians? There is essentially no such thing as a single,indentifiable type of Christian.

        Domminion over the earth? How about humans quit copping out and leaving the responsibility w/ somebody’s particular god, and start taking responsibility for what we are all doing to the earth and societies.

      • http://naver samurai

        Denniso, I agree that there are different religions here, but the majority are christians. What do you mean by not asking God for help or saying that we are falling back on God, because we made mistakes along the way? We always rely on God and Jesus in good times and bad. This is still a christian nation, duhniso!

        1889 – SCOTUS rules this nation to be a christian nation.

        “Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religioius obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation of Courts of Justice?” Washington’s Farewell Address

        “God governs in the affairs of men.” Ben Franklin

        There are so many more I could tell you, but it would take up the whole site to do that. Get your facts straight before you post, lib moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Denniso

        Fact, we humans control the fate of the earth…we have the power for good and evil in our hands. Until we wake up to that fact we will continue whining about the way things are in the world and futilely asking why god lets terrible things happen and why he doesn’t seem to listen to our prayers. Humans have to stand up and take responsibility for OUR actions, not those of someone’s god..

      • http://naver samurai

        Duhniso, I think you need you get your head out of your arse! We have no power to do good or evil, unless we are influenced by God, Jesus, or satan. Satan fills our hearts with bad things and makes us want to do the same wants, wishes, desires, etc. God and Jesus make us want to do good things in their names. You know like giving money to a beggar on the street and knowing that what you did was right by God. If you accept rewards, praise, or anything else and take full credit, without giving credit to God and Jesus, you are only fooling yourself and will get no reward at the end of your life (Going to heaven). If you don’t believe in God, when we send Obama bin Laden back to Kenya or Indonesia, you can go with him and be with your heathen brothers.
        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Denniso

        So you don’t believe in free will? You think that we are essentially puppets at the beck and call of Satan or God? Boy,oh boy…I think you’ve claimed some education before,but you aren’t sounding very educated. If all we do is controlled by Satan or God then why do we do anything rather than just waiting for one influence or the other to affect us,and how do we know when it’s Satan or God?

        What a dismal and unintellectual way to live a life, a life that can be full of mental excitement and intellectual challenges when a person knows that she has responsibility for her own actions.

        If God is all powerful,how is it that the puny devil seems to be such a great opponent w/ powers that seem to match God’s? The world has been full of evil for thousands of yrs…slaughter,pedophile priests,greed,corruption,terrible disease,war,pestilence,starvation,natural disasters and more. It would appear from history that Satan is winning, and how can that be if God is all powerful?

      • kate8

        perry, you’ve kind of got that backwards from what our founders intended. It is in the fed where the danger of overstepping power lies. The job of the fed is to keep us safe so the states can safely conduct their business.

        But then, that’s all been explained. You just aren’t listening.

      • usmadgirl

        kate8,

        Well said on all your above comments!

    • June

      Thank you Chip..Hang in there and keep us informed.

    • Deborah, Texas

      Good article!

      I just got home from going out shopping for survival supplies. On my way out, I pass by the City Hall. I noticed a new military looking jeep, but in black. The man standing beside it was on the CB. Headed home, I noticed it again. I turned around and went for a closer look. Branded it said, “Military Troops”. It was like the Ford Stamp but smaller and at the front of the jeep.
      If you don’t think the military is in your community, you’d better think again. I don’t know who these people are…hell it could be nothing. I’m so gd freaked out that I don’t know if I’m over reacting or not.
      Going to hook up my one of my supplies to see what I can hear.
      God bless, if you haven’t watched Red Dawn, I suggest you should.

      • Coservative at Birth

        Red Dawn is on the horizon. Watch for unmarked vehicles with U.N. personnel after Obama signs the small arms agrement that H. Clinton has been working on.

      • Karolyn

        Paranoia breeds paranoia.

      • Cameron

        Another good movie is “Soldier” starring Kurt Russell. In it a group of ex-soldiers is impressed back into service to plant a bomb. One asks the officer in charge if they will be issued weapons. She replies, “Only soldiers are allowed to have weapons. You are no longer soldiers.” Scary, but that’s what Liberals believe, only soldiers, the police, (both only when on active duty), and of course, LIBERAL ELITES!

    • Cameron

      Arguing with a Liberal is like arguing with an idiot, not QUITE the same but almost. They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience, not facts. If you DO argue with them, stick to the facts and they’ll have no way to win.

    • Pete2sail

      I agree with you Joe — Chip must continue the fight even though it is with ignorance because if you do ignorance wins. I write many emails to a list which at one time included quite a few liberals or Lib-Progs as I call them and have responded to their sometimes clever spins and sometimes idiotic replys wiht facts — fact — facts and most of them wind up name calling and or shutting me out of their maiing list. I feel I have won and at the very least I hope that my input to them will someday penetrate === However I will not hold my breath — Pete Maniscalco
      PS — something to think about –’JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY I AM WRONG DOES NOT MEAN I AM NOT RIGHT.

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