“It is broken because we have few laws regulating it with the exception of Medicare.”
Regulations, in and of themselves, don’t fix anything. There are plenty of regulations: the AMA regulates how many doctors get in medical school; the RBRVS regulates medicare and medicaid pay in a way that encourages too many specialists and not enough family doctors; states limit health insurance competition. But all of these regulations make the system worse, not better.

“The reason the third payer parties (insurances, hmo’s, managed cares plans etc) can deny coverages, limit your access to care, limit you choice of doctor and hospital, co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums etc and they have up to 40% in overhead not to mention their excess profits.”
The 40% is both overstated and deceptive. Private insurances have higher overhead because they have to control costs or go out of business, as many smaller ones have. The excess profits are part of why we need to make the business competitive again.

“Employers have dropped this benefit in many cases because of cost unless they are under union contract this is their prerogative.”
Employers don’t want to be part of this system, but tax law pushed them there.

Medicare has only 8% overhead costs ”
Public insurances don’t pay for their own office space and utilities. It’s also much cheaper to rubber-stamp checks than to control costs.

“and coupled with a medigap policy that is regulated by law which will not let them deny coverages for pre existing condition or any reason, covers all without limiting of coverages, no co-pays, no deductibles, you can choose your own doctor, clinic and hospital including Mayo and Cleavland Clinics.”
According to social security itself, it’s also is growing wildly as a percentage of GDP. Cost control is not an option. I think that’s why it’s been pushed to urgently: once people see how medicare costs end up being controlled, we will no longer want it ourselves.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html

“You not only do nor understand why it is broken, ”
Actually, I’ve spent a lot of time in researching this issue, have you? I also look for causes before I look for solutions, just like a doctor is supposed to diagnose the disease before treating it.

“you do not understand that it was congress that created Medicare”
Are you suggesting that I thought someone else created it?

” and why is it you think they cannot repair our health care system based on their medicare success, if they have the will, ”
I guess that depends on your definition of success. Since it’s not sustainable in its current form, and no one has the political will to control its costs, I would call it a failure.

“my fear is they do not have the political will to stand up to the medical lobby’s who spend millions a year to block it ”
That’s what scares me the most: Politicians depend on massive amounts of money to get (re)elected. They can’t care about the general population any more than the health insurance companies can. Until the entire political system is fixed, we need to fight its expansion on all fronts. This new health care system is even more open to abuse than the current one.

“which money could be used to lower health care costs if the insurance and medical people cared more about your health care and less about their profits..”
We should never expect them to care about health care over profits. That’s why it’s important to bring back true competition (and maybe bust up the current giants).

“We need to ask why is it most other countries can cover all their citizens at half the cost per capita and show better medical outcomes than we do.”
I agree that we need some thorough, objective research into the causes of our system’s breakdown. But the ones in power have vested interests in keeping that from happening. They distract us with symptoms, but avoid looking for causes.

“We now are 37th in medical outcomes, that is 36 countries are doing better and doing it at half the cost and contrary to what you hear with a lot less rationing than our private plans in this country now do.”
That statistic is from a biased WHO study that explicitly weighted the results based on out-of-pocket expenses. Since public insurance uses taxes to cover these, its results are skewed, and therefore, useless. The more lies like this that are used for backing a solution, the less legitimate it looks.

“Noone talks about that either except those having to deal with it personally, which is getting more and more and that is why congress is talking about doing something about it.”
There’s plenty of talk, and plenty of agreement that the system is broken. However, we don’t need to so “something”. With congress, everything is permanent. The bill needs to be well thought out, not rushed. The current proposals don’t address root problems, only symptoms. Since the root causes are not being addressed, nothing will be fixed.

“You hear your representatives talk about that or ask why can’t we. I am on Medicare with a medigap plan and have health problems and have never paid one penny out of pocket except for premiums, Medicare B and the mediap plan premiums cost me $270.00 per month. Many will tell you different but I have the best health care coverage available today and guess what it is a government plan coupled with a government regulated private insurance plan to pay for the gaps. ”
He who robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.

“Misinformation galore is tossed around by a lot of people who have no idea how health care in this country or others really works”
True, you’ve repeated some of it yourself. Also, notice that the people pushing this stuff, especially Obama, don’t allow people to ask questions.

” but to listen to them they sure seem to believe they do. ”
I’m listening to a lot of sides and checking their facts. Anyone who knows a lot, knows that there is no simple solution, but ignorance breeds confidence.

“Private plans have broken health care in this county and not your government albeit they have done nothing to date to stop them.”
So how did private plans get so powerful? Health insurance bought by an employer is tax free. Health insurance bought individually is only tax deductible, which is a heavy penalty for most people. That’s why most workers get their insurance through their employer. Most all employer purchased health plans are expensive and covers part of almost everything from the start. Most individually purchased plans have large deductibles that encourage people to control their own expenses. Are you saying the government didn’t make this part of our tax code? That states don’t limit competition?

“Without government intervention it will never be fixed and only get worse, lets hope they do not just put a bandaid on it when it needs major, major repair.”
The current plan, like it’s proposed counterparts, isn’t a Band-aid, it’s a rusty knife. It will only get worse as they “sweeten” it to get it passed.

ProfElwood Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

“It is broken because we have few laws regulating it with the exception of Medicare.”
Regulations, in and of themselves, don’t fix anything. There are plenty of regulations: the AMA regulates how many doctors get in medical school; the RBRVS regulates medicare and medicaid pay in a way that encourages too many specialists and not enough family doctors; states limit health insurance competition. But all of these regulations make the system worse, not better. *I was talking about government regulations and good regulations make things better Medicare is regulated by the federal government not the states except MN, WI and Mass who have waivers and to get them they had to offer regulations better than the federal regulations, others are by states except self insured managed care plans which are regulated by ERISA, which only protects the corporations and drives up costs,
“The reason the third payer parties (insurances, hmo’s, managed cares plans etc) can deny coverages, limit your access to care, limit you choice of doctor and hospital, co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums etc and they have up to 40% in overhead not to mention their excess profits.”
The 40% is both overstated and deceptive. UP TOO some are about 25% IT IS ACCURATE BUT THEY DO NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW IT Private insurances have higher overhead because they have to control costs or go out of business, as many smaller ones have. The excess profits are part of why we need to make the business competitive again. BALONEY, OR COULD REPLACE WITH SINGLE PAYER then we will not have profits, they have higher overhead because of all the doctors, nurses and others they hire to only to manage the plans by talking to the treating facility and their doctors to see if its needed and etc, BEFORE MANAGED CARE THIS EXPENSE DID NOT EVEN EXIST, I had a relative who was a registered nurse do this and she tripled her salary when she left nursing to do this. I have had doctors tell me this has increased their costs 40%, had to hire extra office staff and their time spend by them on managed care so they have been forced to reduce patient load about 30% to find the time and their profits are excessive as well especially the pharmaceutical companies, just look at their ad budgets alone in the last five years.*

“Employers have dropped this benefit in many cases because of cost unless they are under union contract this is their prerogative.”
Employers don’t want to be part of this system, but tax law pushed them there. *NOT TRUE, if it was why then are so many employers dropping health care benefits. True they wish the government to take it over, makes strange bedfellows, look at WalMart and the SEIU sitting down together to work on solutions, especially when WALMART has no employees represented by Unions *

Medicare has only 8% overhead costs ”
Public insurances don’t pay for their own office space and utilities. It’s also much cheaper to rubber-stamp checks than to control costs. NOT TRUE EITHER, THIS FIGURE IS TOTAL OVERHEAD AND DEVELOPED FOR AN HONEST COMPARISON WITH PRIVATE PLANS AND SOME IS FARMED OUT TO PRIVATE COMPANIES, MY MEDICARE CLAIMS ARE PROCESSED BY BLUE CROSS IN FARGO ND

“and coupled with a medigap policy that is regulated by law which will not let them deny coverages for pre existing condition or any reason, covers all without limiting of coverages, no co-pays, no deductibles, you can choose your own doctor, clinic and hospital including Mayo and Cleavland Clinics.”
According to social security itself, it’s also is growing wildly as a percentage of GDP. Cost control is not an option. I think that’s why it’s been pushed to urgently: once people see how medicare costs end up being controlled, we will no longer want it ourselves.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html I am aware of this report TRUE ON IT PRESENT COURSE BUT CHANGES CAN CORRECT THIS BEFORE IT HAPPENS. VERY DOABLE IF THEY WANT TO, the changes you talk about are pure speculation on your part and they will go there, no politician would want to piss the electorate off that bad, SS & Medicare are considered the holy grail

“You not only do nor understand why it is broken, ”
Actually, I’ve spent a lot of time in researching this issue, have you? I also look for causes before I look for solutions, just like a doctor is supposed to diagnose the disease before treating it. STUDIED it for years dealt with it on my job for 40 years.

“you do not understand that it was congress that created Medicare”
Are you suggesting that I thought someone else created it?

” and why is it you think they cannot repair our health care system based on their medicare success, if they have the will, ”
I guess that depends on your definition of success. < Since it’s not sustainable % KEEP MEDICARE WORKING AS IT IS 100% MEDICAL COSTS PAID IS TERRIFIC DON”T YOU THINK, I KNOW YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS SUSTAINABLE AND CHANGES CAN CORRECT IT BUT IT IS DOABLE, REMEMBER MOST COUNTRIES CAN DO IT FOR HALF WHAT WE DO AND, people are demanding we fix the health care systems and this will generate the political will. in its current form, and no one has the political will to control its costs, I would call it a failure.

“my fear is they do not have the political will to stand up to the medical lobby’s who spend millions a year to block it ”
That’s what scares me the most: Politicians depend on massive amounts of money to get (re)elected. They can’t care about the general population any more than the health insurance companies can. Until the entire political system is fixed, we need to fight its expansion on all fronts. This new health care system is even more open to abuse than the current one. WE DO NOT HAVE A NEW SYSTEM AS YET, SO WHY ASSUME IT IS EVEN MORE OPEN TO ABUSE, YOU CAN”T SEE PAST YOUR PESSIMISM, THE SKY IS NOT FALLING.

“which money could be used to lower health care costs if the insurance and medical people cared more about your health care and less about their profits..”
We should never expect them to care about health care over profits. That’s why it’s important to bring back true competition (and maybe bust up the current giants). CAN”T YOU UNDERSTAND IT IS THE PRIVATE SECTOR THAT HAS WRECKED HEALTH CARE IN THIS COUNTRY AND UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT REGULATES IT, IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE. THERE IS A PLACE FOR THE PRIVATE THIRD PARTY PAYER BUT THEY HAVE GET WITH A BALANCED PROGRAM OR WE SHOULD GO TO SINGLE PAYER. WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY ARE ALL AT THE TABLE THIS TIME. THEY ARE LOBBING TO MINIMIZE THEIR LOSSES AS THEY KNOW THEY CAN NOT STOP CHANGE. THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS AND NO ONE KNOWS THE END RESULT AS YET..

“We need to ask why is it most other countries can cover all their citizens at half the cost per capita and show better medical outcomes than we do.”
I agree that we need some thorough, objective research into the causes of our system’s breakdown. OH WE KNOW ALREADY WHY, IT HAS BEEN COMING ON FOR OVER 30YEARS AND STUDIED REPEATLY But the ones in power have vested interests in keeping that from happening. They distract us with symptoms, but avoid looking for causes.

“We now are 37th in medical outcomes, that is 36 countries are doing better and doing it at half the cost and contrary to what you hear with a lot less rationing than our private plans in this country now do.”
That statistic is from a biased study that explicitly weighted the results based on out-of-pocket expenses. MEDICAL OUTCOMES CAN not be measured by OUT OF POCKET EXPENSES AND THIS STUDY IS WELL ACCEPTED AS ACCURATE BY ALL COUNTRIES Since public insurance uses taxes to cover these, its results are skewed, and therefore, useless. The more lies like this that are used for backing a solution, the less legitimate it looks.COST of health care IS WHAT IS PAID FOR HEALTH CARE THAT IS MEASURED NOT WHAT IS COLLECTED IN TAXES OR PREMIUMS, albeit this effects your personal cost but not the cost of the health care itself

“Noone talks about that either except those having to deal with it personally, which is getting more and more and that is why congress is talking about doing something about it.”
There’s plenty of talk, and plenty of agreement that the system is broken. However, we don’t need to so “something”. With congress, everything is permanent. The bill needs to be well thought out, not rushed. The current proposals don’t address root problems, only symptoms. Since the root causes are not being addressed, nothing will be fixed. WE have talked it out it for years and we know all the root causes and cures, so there is no reason to wait, this argument is for hope on the part of those that oppose it with the hope the public can be scared from supporting it and thus kill the will to get it done.It is a BIOGUS argument

“You hear your representatives talk about that or ask why can’t we. I am on Medicare with a medigap plan and have health problems and have never paid one penny out of pocket except for premiums, Medicare B and the mediap plan premiums cost me $270.00 per month. Many will tell you different but I have the best health care coverage available today and guess what it is a government plan coupled with a government regulated private insurance plan to pay for the gaps. ”
He who robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. I am old enough to remember when we could afford to pay for out health care without insurance, in 1946 my mother had major surgery in Rochester at the Mayo Clinic and was in the hospital for a month, no insurance, dad borrowed at the local bank to pay the doctors and hospital and had it all paid back in 1952, then most hospitals where non profits owned by churches etc. Now we need insurance and the cheapest is MEDICARE weather the system is collectively done though government or private insurance it does not matter if it can be affordable, either way can be called robing peter to pay paul, you just hate it more when it is government and they have proven they can do it cheaper

“Misinformation galore is tossed around by a lot of people who have no idea how health care in this country or others really works”
True, you’ve repeated some of it yourself. ONLY YOUR BIASED OPINION Also, notice that the people pushing this stuff, especially Obama, don’t allow people to ask questions. I suppose it seems that way to the uniformed the rest of us know the answers to the questions.

” but to listen to them they sure seem to believe they do. ”
I’m listening to a lot of sides and checking their facts. Anyone who knows a lot, knows that there is no simple solution, but ignorance breeds confidence. KNOWLEDGE BREEDS CONFIDENCE IGNORANCE BREEDS STUPIDITY, no one said it was simple just doable if there is the will, and not just excuses which you sure seem full of

“Private plans have broken health care in this county and not your government albeit they have done nothing to date to stop them.”
So how did private plans get so powerful? GREED AND LOBBYING GOVERNMENT FOR FAVORS Health insurance bought by an employer is tax free. Health insurance bought individually is only tax deductible, which is a heavy penalty for most people. SOMEHOW ITS GOT TO BE PAID FOR, STOP YOUR WHINING AND GET ON BOARD That’s why most workers get their insurance through their employer. MOST CANNOT AFFORD IN ANY OTHER WAY Most all employer purchased health plans are expensive and covers part of almost everything from the start. Most individually purchased plans have large deductibles that encourage people to control their own expenses. MOST EMPLOYER PLANS ARE HIGH DEDUCTIBLE TOO NOW, PEOPLE CANNOT CONTROL EXPENSES WHEN IT IS FOOD & HOUSING VS HEALTH CAREAre you saying the government didn’t make this part of our tax code? SURE WHATS THE POINT, WOULD COST YOU EVEN MORE IF THEY DIDN’T That states don’t limit competition?

“Without government intervention it will never be fixed and only get worse, lets hope they do not just put a bandaid on it when it needs major, major repair.”
The current plan, like it’s proposed counterparts, isn’t a Band-aid, it’s a rusty knife. It will only get worse as they “sweeten” it to get it passed. ITS OBVIOUS YOU DON”T BELIEVE GOVERNMENT CAN FIND SOLUTIONS BUT IN VIEW OF THE DISASTER THE PRIVATE SECTOR HAS MADE OF THIS AND THEIR UNWILLINGNESS TO DO ANYTHING TO CREATE REAL CHANGE. THE THE ONLY CURE IS THEM. I AGREE IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR PERFECT ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN BUT BETTER IS BETTER AND THE PUBLIC DEMANDS CHANGE THERE WILL BE SOME AND THE MORE WHO DEMAND THAT FROM THEM THE BETTER IT WILL AND THE LARGER THE GROUP OF WHINERS WHO ONLY BITCH AND SHOOT EVERYTHING DOWN COULD DESTROY A SOLUTION. YOU ARE EITHER PART OF THE PROBLEM OR PART OF THE SOLUTION AND DOING NOTHING BUT WHINE MAKES YOU PART OF THE PROBLEM

Thank-you for your kind reply. Not too many people agree with me anymore. I don’t know what happened to America. We used to be a hard working society. We worked hard and we played hard, now people just don’t want to get off the couch.

Dont worry many people think like us. I think at some point many more people will come around as well. Dont get consumed with all the bs that is on this site. It will eventually take a toll on your health and make you a very bitter person.

Dear Brian, No chance of me becoming a bitter person. I do worry about the American people as a whole though as I fear that they will wait to long to speak out. This govrnment is taking us places I know we don’t want to go. I worry about the children as they don’t know the America that I grew up in. I just want them to have that chance. I want to wake up one day and find the people banded together to speak up for what is right. Now that’s real change.

If Obama trys to take away the 2nd amend people will band together on that. I think that there would be chaos abroad on that one.

Yes Brian,I think you’re right. My guess is though that they will try. I think that by the end of Obamas term though that every constitutional right we have will be dissolved if we don’t do something quick. I also know that at some point that there will probably be a revolution in this country. That’s a little scary to me as I think that if we acted now we could escape all of that. Unfortunately though I think Obama still has too many people keeping his secrets so that means he still has too many people still beleiving in his lies. The longer he is in office though, the more strength he aquires,will make it harder to preserve what we beleive in. It will be almost impossible to put things back together if he keeps going.

Every child that is born has a huge debt waiting for them.