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$20,000 Per Year Is Not ‘Affordable’ Healthcare

February 4, 2013 by  

$20,000 Per Year Is Not ‘Affordable’ Healthcare
PHOTOS.COM

According to the Internal Revenue Service, the least expensive (in dollars) Obamacare health insurance plan in 2016 will be $20,000 per year for a family of five. The cost in health is immeasurable.

Buried within the dozens of pages of typical government argle bargle, parenthetical references and doublespeak are examples for Americans to use to determine their “penalty” for not being on an Obamacare-approved plan. Bronze coverage (the least expensive Obamacare plan behind silver, gold and platinum) for a family of two adults and three children is $20,000 per year.

One relevant section, found on page 70, reads:

Example 3. Family without minimum essential coverage. (i) In 2016, Taxpayers H and J are married and file a joint return. H and J have three children: K, age 21, L, age 15, and M, age 10. No member of the family has minimum essential coverage for any month in 2016. H and J’s household income is $120,000. H and J’s applicable filing threshold is $24,000. The annual national average bronze plan premium for a family of 5 (2 adults, 3 children) is $20,000. (ii) For each month in 2016, under paragraphs (b)(2)(ii) and (b)(2)(iii) of this section, the applicable dollar amount is $2,780 (($695 x 3 adults) + (($695/2) x 2 children)). Under paragraph (b)(2)(i) of this section, the flat dollar amount is $2,085 (the lesser of $2,780 and $2,085 ($695 x 3)). Under paragraph (b)(3) of this section, the excess income amount is $2,400 (($120,000 – $24,000) x 0.025). Therefore, under paragraph (b)(1) of this section, the monthly penalty amount is $200 (the greater of $173.75 ($2,085/12) or $200 ($2,400/12)). (iii) The sum of the monthly penalty amounts is $2,400 ($200 x 12). The sum of the monthly national average bronze plan premiums is $20,000 ($20,000/12 x 12). Therefore, under paragraph (a) of this section, the shared responsibility payment imposed on H and J for 2016 is $2,400 (the lesser of $2,400 or $20,000).

Using the parameters outlined in the example, ehealthinsurance.com provided 48 health insurance quotes, and only three were $20,000 or more per year. Some were near the $2,400 “penalty” (aka tax) the family would have pay for not having a qualified plan.

Officially titled The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Obamacare was never designed to be affordable, and it certainly won’t provide healthcare. It’s a great transfer of wealth designed to drive Americans to greater government dependence and into a deathcare system (783,936 annual deaths caused by the U.S. medical industrial complex) of population control.

The law was written by and for the benefit of the medical industrial complex and the loathed health insurance companies. It provides them with guaranteed customers and a bottomless U.S. Treasury to pay the bills and gives the totalitarian elite greater control over our bodies and, ultimately, our liberty.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American who has been writing a newsletter since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Harold Olsen

    The key wording in Obamacare is “government approved” healthcare. You can have the best healthcare plan in the world but if Obama does not approve of it then, in effect, you have no healthcare plan. He stated shortly after it was passed that VA health care benefits would not count as having a health care plan. I think that is because he is, basically, taking away veterans’ free healthcare and charging them for treatment. I’ve met veterans who have told me that they are now being charged for their treatment whenever they go the the VA for medical help. Also, Obama is making active duty military personnel pay for they own medical treatment. He is justifying it by saying that was now have an all volunteer military and that everyone who is in the military is there because they choose to be. For that reason he says they should pay for their own medical treatments, even if they are a result of combat. He said that if they were injured in combat it is because they, and no one else, put themselves into that situation and therefore should pay their own medical bills. Anyone who complains about this, he said, are just being unpatriotic. A couple of days after I heard him say this, I met a guy who had just gotten out of the Marines. He was injured in Iraq and the government had just billed him for his medical treatment for his wounds to the tune of $78.000. When he told them there was no way he could pay this, he was told, “You’d better pay it.” We all know what happens if you don’t pay the government money they say you own them. Prison, a stiff fine, or both.

    • George E

      It’s absolutely shameful that we treat our veterans this way. If we keep on doing things like this, no one will “volunteer” to fight for us in the future because they won’t be able to afford it. Among other objections I have to this sort of thing, this is a moral issue to me. I don’t see how anyone can justify treating our veterans like this. I’ll bet other government employees get better treatment than this………….probably because they are unionized. Would Obama act differently if our military was unionized? Probably. As I said, this is shameful.

      • Debbie Day

        This is not true! My husband is a vet and his medical coverage is free. He’s 100% disabled. Everything they have said in the article is not TRUE!

        • tony newbill

          Debbieday did you read the IRS Explanation on what YOU WILL PAY for YOUR Obamacare ??? And they will take it out of your bank account or your retirement account .
          Go to page 56 and page 70 of this IRS Report and look at what Healthcare coverage will cost a family of 4 and 5…..

          http://www.irs.gov/PUP/newsroom/REG-148500-12%20FR.pdf

        • George E

          I’m very glad to hear that. I may have jumped to a false conclusion in this case because I recalled having seen a report during the debate over Obamacare where Obama had made a statement that he thought vets should pay for their own health care since they were volunteers in the armed services. Hopefully, this will never come to pass. I’m sure I have a bias because I’ve long felt we don’t treat our vets fairly in this country. Please accept my sincere thanks for your husband’s service to our country, and your family’s sacrifice to let him do it. God bless.

      • truesoy

        George.,

        It is apparent you don’t know iorta of what you are talking about, and which is typical for the ‘conservatives anti-Obama’ crowd.
        The truth is that Obama increased veterans benefits, and he made the vetrans budget a must be approve ‘none-negotiable’ legislation.

        Sincerely,
        truesoy

    • Kinetic1

      Harold,
      Did you bother to do ANY research before posting this drivel? The government does not charge service personnel for their injuries and never proposed such a move. What they did consider was billing their private insurance for treatment, but they scraped that idea almost as soon as they announced it. As to your collection of “quotes”, check out John Semmen’s “Semi-News — A Satirical Look at Recent News” from March 2009.
      (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ecc_1260399066)
      This is the same guy who wrote that Obama wanted to change the national anthem because it had a “war-like message”.
      Yep, once again you have been duped by right wing rabble rousers who post satire as truth. They know that most of you won’t even bother to verify these ludicrous quotes, even though the truth is easy to find. Google one of the quotes and you’ll find legions of sites debunking this tripe.
      Politifact (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/apr/09/chain-email/fiction-touted-fact-anti-obama-e-mail/)
      Factcheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/would-obama-have-soldiers-pay-for-own-war-injuries/)
      Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/veteranshealth.asp)
      Every one of these sites points to the same source and every one of them backs up the facts with articles from the day. Once again your anger and bias towards President Obama has allowed you to make a fool of yourself and others on this site.

      • tony newbill

        Kinetic1 so you are OK with families of 4 paying 20 K for coverage ?

        This will encourage more costs for treatment because all of this Money will be available when today the Money is only available when a medical need is needed and the deductible is then paid to meet the insurance requirement .

        Obamacare should be ran in this same manner on a deductible basis if only to insure the demand for care is not propagated by the increased funds in the pool that the Medical professionals will see as a Bonanza and raise their prices to acquire these increased funds . But these 20 K premiums are not even going to be paid , heck the majority of people don’t make the kind of incomes they claim in this IRS information .

      • JUKEBOX

        Before I retired and obtained Medicare for my wife and myself, I had to pay over $800 per month for my BC/BS group policy, so it is not unreasonable to see that under Obamacare the same premium could double in five years. Obama LIED when he said you could keep your insurance, if you liked it, because he did not add “IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT”. If this Obamacare debacle is “AFFORDABLE” , then I have lived on Mars for five years.

      • truesoy

        kinetic..;
        …and if it is of any consolation to you, tony newbill proves your point. Apparently he never had to pay full price for medical insurance for if he/she had, he/she would have known that the average cost (last years premiums) was an average of $18,000. per year for a family of 4 or 5, and even more expensive depending on the geographical area of the insured. I’ve seen plans that had premiums of $2200.00 per month; and that was before ‘Obama care’.
        I thought you’d like to know that, and thus probably enlighten newbill.

        Sincerely,
        Truesoy

        • tony newbill

          Truesoy , as a family of 3 we pay 485 a month for a 80-20 plan with a 5000 deductible per family member and the 80-20 plan doesn’t pay 100 % till the charges reach 100 K per family member . But our Out of pocket cost per year for this ridiculous plan does not cost me until I use it so the incentive is to stay healthy .
          With Obamas plan he get full payment whether I use the service or not and thats where this plan sucks !!!!

          • truesoy

            newbill,

            I would question two things about your medical plan, if you only pay $485.oo for a family of 3:
            1) the geographical are where you live and the type of coverage you have, a) is it a catastrophic plan, with no outpatients coverage other thatn a ‘rider’ or a ‘wrap around for outpatient coverage, but only on certain circumstances, or b) is it a ‘fee’ for service plan (these type of medical plans are worthless because it pays hardly anything for medica care and you are left to pay most of the bill).
            Other than that, and without knowing your age and that of your dependents, state and zip code, and the name of the insurance company, I can’t tell you much more. But the premium sounds ‘very’ low for a full covered medical plan, whether and indemnity or otherwise.

            Sincerely,
            Truesoy

          • tony newbill

            Truesoy is is a catastrophic plan up to 1 Million after the initial 100 K in medical under the 80-20 plan . The Premium was that low because of the 5000 deductible .

    • mark

      You’re spouting a lot of nonsene, Harold, typical anectodal evidence from things you overheard from guys who go to the VA. Exaggerated fears and paranoia is increasingly becoming this website’s main trade. Be afraid, be very afraid, the government is going to rob you – and then kill you! This nonsense never ends.

      • George E

        Mark,

        If the government is so trustworthy, why don’t they tell us the truth about how government debt is bankrupting our future, will require massive tax increases from everyone including the middle-class and massive reductions in benefits from our entitlement programs?

        • tony newbill

          And why don’t they tell us all the truth about this reason why the Federal Reserve is Monetizing all the debt the Government is building up ????
          The fact that we out sourced our tool and die industry to these guys making us all Dependent and SERFS to them for our needs now and to trust the Government will fix this mess is all a Buffoon let alone the idea that Obamacare is going to work out both financially and create medical access and equality when we have no means to create anything any more that sustains us in any form financially and durably !!!!

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC_WLSiJ8EQ

  • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

    “You, and all in the pro-life camp, should be yelling about and trying to prevent the fact that 120 Americans die EACH DAY because of no health coverage.” DavidL

    GALT says:
    February 1, 2013 at 4:04 am

    DavidL

    The numbers here don’t work in your favor, and as usual the devil is in the details.

    Step 1.) Do a search for “iatrogenic”…..this will give you the current numbers for deaths CAUSED by “medical error” which runs between 750,000 to 950,000 per year.

    Step 2.) Do the math…….total number of current insured and the current % of those killed by medical error.

    Step 3.) Add number of millions of people that will now be covered.

    Step 4.) Add number of people who will die because they ARE covered, by multiplying previous percentage to newly covered.

    Step 5.) Compare numbers……your 43, 830 deaths by non coverage which is 120 x 365.25 or using the LOW number and US census data from 2010…..256.2 million insured and 49.9 uninsured…….the iatrogenic death rate was .003 for those insured which you then multiply by the 49.9 million…….which results in 150,180.57 additional deaths due to health care COVERAGE!!!!!!!

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/27/politics/btn-health-care/index.html

    Link is for the numbers of insured and uninsured……….

    So you would be killing 107,000+ more people a year by covering them.

    Probably best to concentrate on getting the truth out that, the source of this Bill IS the health industry and insurance companies…….( not Obama ), which now has guaranteed profits and no incentive to provide HEALTH CARE, and it never did, but even less of a reason NOW.

    BTW there is a downside to “healthy” on the “It’s the economy, stupid!” front……..since the effects of actually being healthy would cut GDP in half or more………which will take some thought to comprehend…..that “It’s the stupid economy.”………..oops, I forgot where I was….NEVER MIND!

    This just in on the “Do you know WHO your enemy really IS?” front…..

    Black 9/11 Money, Motive and Technology: Mark H. Gaffney

    Not that y’all actually READ books, but whatever you “thought” you knew on “this topic”, ( and a lot of related matters ) just got a whole lot worse……………….

    “He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, CONTROLS THE FUTURE!!!!!”

    • JUKEBOX

      There are more than 120 abortion deaths every day, because these women DID have healthcare insurance.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        So what?……..How many of them did YOU offer to cover pre-natal care for and
        adopt as your own? How many have you done this for already?

        Let me guess……….?

        • George E

          So what???????? By that line of thinking, maybe we ought to let parents terminate the lives of their born children for the same reasons………………

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        What “line of thinking” or “same reasons” would you be referring to?

        This should be fun…….

      • JUKEBOX

        So what about the 120 per day that died without healthcare. Did you offer to take any of them to the doctor? I think not, so that makes you a duplicitous hypocrite.

      • http://gravatar.com/plfprime GALT

        Jukebox, your “functional illiteracy” is showing….again.

        Given what I have written here…….why would I take anyone to a “doctor”?

        ( tick, tick, tick, tick………… )

    • moonbeam

      Hey Galt, don’t forget, you may see this as much as I do, that people who visit doctors the most for some reason STAY SICK the most. One health problem after another and they still go to the same doctor for every sniffle and sneeze.

      I ended up with pink eye 3 times, courtesy of my grandchildren. Know what I did about it? Instead of going to the doctor to tell me what I already knew, I trotted my happy ass to the store and got a tube of Neosporin for about $4.00. When I got home, opened the tube, pulled down my lower eye lid and squeezed some in. Covered with a do-it-yourself patch and went to bed. Did this for 2 nights. By day 3 pink eye GONE! Neosporin works on everything from a scraped knee to pink eye in 3 days. Saved myself about $150.00 for a doctor’s visit and the cost of whatever medication he would have prescribed.

      Another time, my grand daughter fell and busted her lip open. Could have possibly used stitches, but we knew she would go for that. Know what I did? Slathered it with Neosporin and covered it. Busted lip closed up and healed in…you guessed it…3 days. No doctor needed. Some things you just don’t need a doctor for.

      Now, for a broke leg, you need Robitussin cough syrup. Anybody will tell you that stuff works wonders. Of course I’m kidding about the Robitussin, but I couldn’t help myself. However, the stuff about Neosporin Triple Antibiotic is true.

  • AngelStar

    Eugenics.

  • http://www.wastewatchersinc.org richardahern

    The Constitution in Exile by Judge Andrew O. Napolitano
    http://www.judgenap.com
    Impeachment is in order for, President Obama

  • tony newbill

    Here is why the Income average in the USA is not going up to afford this healthcare cost regardless of who is administering the program .
    How can we trust that stocks are even valued in true equitable vale , that supply is there to back up the value or is it just Paper Money that the federal Reserve has just printed up and funneled out into the markets ??

    Until GDP is showing the true growth in overall market growth like in the sustainable sectors of cost of living that being food stocks and energy stocks Default looms !!!!

    What about this use of tax Payer Monies and the Fascism that exists here in our Financial system ?
    Hitler Printed Fake US dollars and funneled them into the Europe causing inflation and then came to the aid of the Europeans with promises of a better life causing the divide between the USA and Europe to emerge . This is no different with China today getting in the middle of the EU promising them true supply while our Money printing Fools just print and print and send the bailout dollars to the EU and without true supply to back it up are just causing Inflation in the Euro-zone and this further dividing the USA and EU and the USA will Lose the Reserve Currency position soon because of this !!!!!

    These guys are just playing with the paper money swimming in the paper money thinking that thats all they need while we run shorter and shorter on true supply and it shows in the overall kind of jobs we have that pay cost of living wages based on the kind of supply we are creating and thats where the signs show the inflation in the cost of living !!!

    Tim Geithner Tried to Cover Up Tax Payer Bailout moneys from the 2008-9 Bailout Money Going to Top Banks
    ht tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHODjoSb2ao&feature=related

    Tim Geithner questioned about involvement in AIG bailout Goldman Sachs associates
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbKQ-h3J4Ks

  • jdn

    This government was founded on the back of a tax revolt and may end in one .

  • http://howtostopcolds.com Carole Ramke

    If you don’t like the way things are going, you may not be sipping enough fluoride.

    I try to focus on health rather than health care.

    • tony newbill

      They will take your money out of your retirement account to pay for Obamacare !!!
      http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2013/02/02/its-coming-the-government-wants-to-help-manage-retirement-accounts/

      • Vicki

        Those accounts already have way to little in them to support the elderly. But it does save the state money if the elderly starve.

    • AZcowgirl

      Carol you may be right…it’s in the water :-) If anyone is interested in taking charge of their own health and wellness may I suggest the book “Over-The-Counter Natural Cures by Shane “The Peoples Chemist” Ellison buy online @ Amazon or Walmart

  • walter agard

    If a person get sick they need io see a doctor to atleast get medicine other third world give their people free health care with the people paying only for the paperwork. You dont bring on sick to yourself.

    • tony newbill

      Those same Governments that pay for your healthcare also keep you broke and living like a SERF and dying sooner while you wait in line to see the doctor that is suppose to be helping you .

    • JUKEBOX

      If you don’t believe that a lot of people bring sickness on themselves, take a look around at the grossly overweight people who have heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc.

  • ibcamn

    I have had to change my insurance over to other companies several times to finally get a good deal and away from the Obama threat(hopefully)this company is helping others to get best bang for the money and they do not like this regime going after peoples health care,you have to hunt around but you can find companies that will help you,their out there,you just have to look!

    • Vicki

      Show us their government seal of approval.

  • JimH

    After taxes I don’t have $20,000.
    Oh well. I doubt taxes will go down, so I can aford to buy something I’m mandated to buy.
    I guess when I go to jail for not paying my taxes, so I can buy Insurance, I can go to the prison clinic.

  • FreedomFighter

    The death panels are real also, ObamaCare is a curse on society, thought up by eugenics monsters.

    Laus Deo
    Semper FI

  • TheTruthHurts

    Can we stop with the “population control myth”? And all these conspiracy theories? If it werent for modern medicine we would have the same historical rate of neonatal/infant mortality deaths:

    [World historical and predicted infant mortality rates per 1,000 births (1950–2050)
    UN, medium variant, 2008 rev.[60]
    Years Rate Years Rate
    1950–1955 152 2000–2005 52
    1955–1960 136 2005–2010 47
    1960–1965 116 2010–2015 43
    1965–1970 100 2015–2020 40
    1970–1975 91 2020–2025 37
    1975–1980 83 2025–2030 34
    1980–1985 74 2030–2035 31
    1985–1990 65 2035–2040 28
    1990–1995 61 2040–2045 25
    1995–2000 57 2045–2050 23]

    , millions of people dying prematurely & millions of others having debilitating disease that would prevent them from going about their daily business. CABGs, TKR/THRs, prosthetics, medicine etc… despite all the bellyaching for actually having a reasonable response for people trying to good in the world, your response isn’t “Hey, what can I do to help this situation”; its “these MDs are quacks! What charlatans, its equivalent to blood letting!!” Yet, if these same MDs did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, I could guarantee it would be the same argument; claiming that they’re withholding treatment bc of some conspiracy theory. Face the facts: there are bad doctors, lawyers, journalists, military members, government/public servants… but by God this doesn’t mean throw the baby out with the bathwater. Everyone dies, the older you are, the greater the risk of developing all disease, across the board.

    I can tell you that as a DPT w/ a certification in orthopedic manual physical therapy & years of research that yes, prevention is the best medicine; NOTHING can beat diet & exercise. However, (ironically enough) given the libertarian stance on freedom & allowing people to do what they want, eat what they want etc… It appears that these same ideals we are defending are the root cause of the issue: people overeat & become obese, leading to a host of chronic, progressive & degenerative diseases (CVA, MI, DM, HTN, obesity etc…); MDs can only do so much by telling some fat pt to lose wt & exercise; I personally tell pts to do this & they cant even follow through with performing 5 minutes of exercise with a rubber band a day, let alone go for a 30 minute walk or change a diet.

    http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

    Scroll down to the 2nd map of the US… it should change colors every 3-5 seconds

    • FreedomFighter

      Doublethink
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5NGAOJL2nM

      Laus Deo
      Semper FI

      • TheTruthHurts

        Not sure what you’re referring to here… my statement or your belief? Is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? You want me to believe that all MDs are all in cahoots w/ all pharm co’s to twist Americans arms to eat garbage food & then to pump them full of pills? Or were you referring to the fact that you believe that every American has a choice to purchase this or that food? Or the fact that nearly 99.99999% of all Americans have access to public resources to information regarding health issues (i.e. public libraries)?

    • Vicki

      Insufficient definition of “dying prematurely”

      • TheTruthHurts

        Sure, let me assist, you can simply go to wikipedia.com & search “preventable causes of death in the US”… or something along those lines. You will find that preventable causes of death have something to do with “premature death”. Lifestyle choices (smoking, diet, alcohol consumption, exercise) have a greater impact on health than most, if not all other factors. So, the 60%+ Americans that are overweight or obese that choose to smoke, drink & sit on their couch consume a greater & uneven portion of health care than the other 40% do not. Medicine, surgeries, PT/OT rehabilitation; numerous studies demonstrate a strong correlation between time off work & the financial burden placed upon workers comp claims & thus businesses. In other words, fat people cost companies more money to hire & maintain as employees

        Obesity: Economic Burden & Cost
        By Dart MS

        “Current estimates of economic expenses directly related to excess weight are estimated to be $75 billion or more, an amount that takes up 4 – 7 percent of all health care costs. When indirect costs and other societal burdens linked to the obesity epidemic are considered, it makes obesity one of the pressing health issues of our time.”

    • mark

      Good luck, TheTruthHurts, trying to argue rationally on this website. Don’t you know that Obama is the Anti-Christ, all government agencies are Nazis, and the sole purpose of the federal goverment is to take every last cent (and gun) from every last taxpayer right before sending them all to FEMA Death Camps for extermination.

      Oh, and also, the United States is going to collapse as a nation tomorrow. This works out well since as Lil’ Orphan Annie sang about manana: “you’re only a day away!” So you can never really call them on that one, as it is always going to happen not today – but the next day.

      • TheTruthHurts

        You know, I used to think that people on this site debated intelligently (I’ve been reading PLD for a year or so, pretty much every article published, not necessarily commenting on them), then it kind of grew on me that anyone that had a differing opinion was labelled a communist or some other lemming of the gov’t, paid & sent here by some liberal web site to wreak havoc upon “the other side”… then I read a book (among many others) The Science of Fear by Daniel Gardner, and it explained exactly why people behave the way they do on this site… among other sites, like youtube or what have you…

        Group polarization & confirmation bias… anything in between is a racket

  • Motov

    I Absolutely hate what our government has become, It is the most vile and corrupt group of morons ever to assemble, and they are destroying America. And we are too dumb to do anything about it.

    • Kate8

      Motov – I think it was planned that way.

      We are slaves to the elite. Livestock. They do what they want to us, and we cower.

      They make “laws” that they have not authority to make, and we abide by them. Implied consent.

      What else can we expect.

      • mark

        Right Kate8, and the worst elites of all are the doctors. They make more money than most of us, are much more educated, think they know more than us, always telling us what to do, how to live, and what medicine to take. The doctors are the worst elites of all. We should eliminate all of them, those uppity, filthy, know-it-alls. Once we finish off all the doctors, we’ll finally be safe and free. And get rid of all the hospitals, too, where so many of these elites do their sinister work. Then we’ll finally have an America like it used to be! Like the America of 1776 – before they had Medicare and health insurance!

        True people only lived to their mid-thirties, but they were free! And they could carry all the guns they wanted, too, and paid no income tax! That’s the America you want to live in – if you’re white and a man, of course. Women couldn’t vote, run for office, sit on juries – and they had that slavery thing. Oh well, every age had its problems. But they were free! Not like us living in this horrible world of advanced technology, modern medicine, and government taxation!

      • Kate8

        mark – The most pathetic slaves of all are the ones who are proud of their servitude.

        This means you.

  • Chuck S

    A third angle is that I think alternative medicine is often better than conventional. I think it could drastically reduce medical expenses. Does Obamacare help or hurt alternatives? There have been efforts to curtail altrernmatives – like proposals to require a Drs Rx to get vitamins. The medical establishment may try to use Obamacare to un-fund or prohibit alternatives. OR, it may open up alterntives and actually end up with big improvements, which Obama will take credfit for. Of course, it would be much better to have the alternatives and not Obamacare.

    Some people now have medical savings accounts (HSA) and big deductable insurance plans. Some people are using the HSAs to pay for alternative doctors and suplements. I think democratic legislation is ending or curtailing HSAs.

  • mark

    Right, the worst thing anyone can possiblly have is health care insurance. All it will do is kill you. Get rid of all your health care insurance, never go to a hospital or a doctor – all they want to do is kill you. Just drink a lot of herbal tea and eat fresh fruits and vegetables. That’s all you need. Doctors and hospitals – especially gov’t subsidized ones – only want to kill you…. Incredibly people on this site no doubt believe this. Smiling happily the Tea Party and the Libertarian Survivalists will take us back to the Dark Ages. But one good thing about the Dark Ages, they had no Medicare or VA hospitals, or gov’t subsidized health care back then. True, the life expectancy was only 29. But they at least they all died free! Free from gov’t or corporate-subsized heatlh care!

    I myself feel the same way. I would much rather die in my youth than take one cent of that filthy gov’t or private company-subsidized health care. For what?! Just to live happily and healthily for many decades? When the only thing that matters in life is to be armed to the teeth and free from these tyrranical gov’ts that want us all to live into our eighties like we do today! This is a fate worse than death. Jim Jones had it right. I mean who wants to live on this earth if some gov’t or insurance company is going to interfere with you in some way – or make you fill out some forms?

    • George E

      Mark,

      For most of us what we see with Obamacare is likely higher costs and/or fewer benefits, and greater complications in getting our healthcare, and for what purpose? Why are we being subjected to this change, and is that worth the additional cost and aggravation? We’re not convinced it is.

    • TheTruthHurts

      You’re missing the mark, mark…. They would also, based on principle, not be able to use roads to travel (especially interstate highways), the post office, public libraries; but they COULD all pool their resources together & help people in poor or devastated communities; because that’s what they all do…

    • TheTruthHurts

      Oh, and don’t forget about those pesky firefighters puttin all dem der fires out wit their fancy hoses & bells & whistles; I could just call up my neighbor & use all that expensive equipment

      • tony newbill

        watch this and then tell me what the answer is ???? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DT0DcgfMu4k

      • tony newbill

        Watch this one too and tell me what you are going to do when this happens ??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC_WLSiJ8EQ

      • TheTruthHurts

        Idk… But at about 4 min into the 2nd video he explains how the free market of the world will dominate American economics…

      • Chuck S

        That’s AZ-ism – jumping from A to Z. Us complaining about a very bloated government doesn’t mean that we want no government. We believe in limited government – like the constitution calls for. It’s like the Fedgov is an 800 lb man. The liberals want to spend billions to buy him french fries and the conservatives say he could lose a few poiunds. And the liberals acuse the conservatives of starving him.

        • George E

          I like the analogy. Thanks.

      • TheTruthHurts

        Chuck, I guess you fail to realize not everyone on this site shares your exact views… A spectrum more readily identifies that there are some who, even on a libertarian scale, advocate for more or less gov’t… I suggest you wikipedia this, there are socialist libertarians & there are anarchical libertarians; or whatever it is you are. So if you come from the Lysander Spooner camp you will want anarchy, absolutely no gov’t… So, that’s a ‘horrible analogy’…

  • Terry Bateman

    $20,000 for a family of five=$4,000 per person per year and $333.33 per person per
    month. That is in-line with current health insurance rates. What happens if insurance
    companies double their rates just before 2014? Where would a family of 5 with income
    less than $100,000 get the money to pay for that? Not everybody works for companies
    large enough that they have to supply health insurance to their employees. It looks
    like the government WANTS to increase the medicaid, welfare, and food stamp rolls
    to create a permanent underclass dependent on the U.S. government.

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